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This is the Boundless Pursuit Podcast, a show highlighting the purity of the experience
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without limitation.
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Each week we'll bring anglers as diverse as the fish they chase, whether it be from
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your backyard or your bucket list.
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Fresh water, salt water, conventional gear or fly.
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We're bringing stories and perspectives from fishermen from all walks of life, from across
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the country and globe.
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In the digital age, authentic communication and networking is critical and I'd love to
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hear from you about show suggestions, potential guests or general feedback.
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You can reach me at boundlesspersuitfishing at gmail.com or at my website, www.boundless-persuit.com.
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That's where you'll find the entire collection of written articles, podcast episodes and
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media.
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I deeply value the feedback, ratings, reviews and support of my listeners and I look forward
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to hearing from you.
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I'm your host David Graham.
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Now let's get on to today's episode.
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It's estimated that there's over 220 million fishermen scattered across the globe in a
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sport and as a means of sustenance that has grown for tens of thousands of years.
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On a planet where natural resources and truly wild places are disappearing at a rapid rate,
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the opportunity or the very idea of the opportunity to be a pioneer or the first to see something
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or go somewhere in fishing is all but gone.
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My guest today though has waded streams and wet flies and some of the most pristine waters
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and untouched landscapes on earth.
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Pacing arguably the most difficult fish to catch on the planet, the Goliath Tigerfish.
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Francois Bootha of South Africa is a tremendously experienced angler, adventurer, photographer
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and philosopher.
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A guy that's fished his way across the globe catching some of the most recognized and sought-after
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sportfish in the world.
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But there's one species that has captivated him beyond all others.
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Bootha's Goliath Tigerfish is maybe the most interesting character in all of freshwater,
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but it's not the biggest, it's not the strongest or the most beautiful.
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The allure of the Goliath Tigerfish may just be in the impossibility of encountering one,
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but Bootha took his interest in its pursuit beyond what's already a tall order and made
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it even more ambitious by chasing them on the fly.
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And it was some two decades ago that Bootha launched his initial expeditions into the
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heart of the Congo with one goal in mind, drown out the naysayers who echoed the same
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pessimistic sentiment and catch the un-catchable fish on fly.
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And his story of doing so and beholding possibly the first ever fly caught Goliath Tigerfish
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is one of the most intriguing chronicles that I've ever heard.
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And his ability to articulate this journey and sew together the story with projections
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of genuine passion for the hunt is amazing.
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And in this conversation, we talk about the tall order of launching these early campaigns
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into untouched and frankly unmapped areas into the geometric center of Africa.
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And this isn't a time before access to satellite maps, internet research, or any real sophisticated
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means of even traveling into the areas.
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And Bootha breaks down the breakdown of mental and physical barriers along the way where
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nearly tapping out and nearly turning back could have set back the Goliath Tigerfish
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by God only knows how long.
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And we talk about the launch of Goliath Expeditions, a travel and fishing outfitter that now hosts
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trips into the Chinko Reserve for this incredible species.
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But more importantly has taken steps in its partnership with African parks to ensure the
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conservation of these unspoiled lands, fish, and wildlife.
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This is an awesome story of persistence, perseverance, and true dedication and adventure by one of
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the best storytellers I've had the privilege of talking to.
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This is Francois Bootha of Goliath Expeditions.
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I'm just trying to get connected, but I mean, I really appreciate getting you on here.
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I love all the guests that I get.
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I like very proudly boast that I've had very diverse anglers from around the world and
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the country who've been nice enough to lend me some of their time and just shed light
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on their experience.
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And while I'm interested in all of the topics, otherwise I wouldn't invite people in the
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first place.
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There's certain ones that are like, I feel like are on my path.
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Like it's like indirect alignment with where I want to go with my own fishing.
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And I know I've mentioned this before we started recording, but your experience with Goliath
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Tigerfish is, is unparalleled, it's unprecedented.
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And in a landscape of anglers that encompasses, I mean, how many fishermen do you think there
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are on planet earth?
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Millions, hundreds of millions.
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I've often won the nominee.
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They all.
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Yeah.
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And so to be in a company of very few and any type of fishing is, is rare because there's
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so many of us.
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Slim chances that you're doing something no one's done before, but I feel like you've,
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you've kind of stood on rare grounds and some of the places you've begun, but the Goliath
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Tigerfish, I'd be lying if I said it is a fish that I've dreamt about my whole life.
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I think that's cliche.
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It is actually a very recent interest.
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It's one that I'd seen and I can't really put my finger on it.
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It's almost like, I think at first my mind was occupied with like the era pima for the
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longest time.
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That was like my childhood fish.
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The one where all my focus was on for years and years and years as my path as an angler
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progressed, but then I got that one done and it almost came so easy that I felt guilty
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about it.
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I'm like that, like I got there and it just happened.
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And I'm like, yeah, you know, it was kind of anti climactic, you know, but then this
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Goliath Tigerfish got on my radar probably within the last, you know, couple of years
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and I'd say in the last year, there's become this just, it's not an interest.
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It's become this intense obsession, dreaming about it, losing sleep about it, doodling
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and drawing pictures of them, even on my notes right here.
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I just, I can't, I cannot stop thinking about this fish.
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And so, yeah.
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And so you're a guy who's, I think I'm walking in your footsteps, but you experienced that
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20 years ago, nearly 20 years ago.
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Maybe even longer ago.
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I was, I was, I was 18 years old and I was working in a fly shop in Johannesburg, South
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Africa.
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And I'd, I'd, I'd only taken up fly fishing a year prior to that, but already I was trying
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to explore as much of it as I could, you know, fishing in any damp patch, you know, before
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school, after school, weekends, wherever.
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It was mostly subject to things like trout and bass and what was available.
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And obviously, you know, having grown up and having done one or two trips into Africa with
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my, with my parents and having, you know, spin fished for normal tiger fish.
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Yeah.
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It was an obvious sort of next progression, you know, and, you know, there was the knowledge
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that they've been caught on fly, which was fine.
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But I was working in this fly shop and somebody walked in there and I questioned them because
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I think they brought some tiger fish flies in to show us and I, I discussed it with them
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and, and they mentioned this Goliath tiger fish, this giant tiger fish from the Congo
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River.
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And I think as, as this guy started speaking about this fish, it immediately captured me.
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It was, it was, it was a, it was so strange, you know, I think that I was quite hyperactive
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and I think it was very difficult to focus and concentrate on things.
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I found fishing so amazing.
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But this topic, this fish really grabbed me and I, I immediately had this vision in my
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head about this river and this river course and this fish, this, this enigmatic, this
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giant tiger fish that was swimming in it.
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And I just sort of, I was hooked and, and, and, you know, from there, you know, every,
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every, every chance I had, you know, the limited information that was available about this
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fish, I just soaked up.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, that's crazy because there's, there's still limited information.
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Granted, now we live in a day and age where you can at least see images of things you never
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knew existed at the swipe of your finger.
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But I think that's pretty interesting that the first time you learned of the fish was
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in a fly shop, word of mouth, I'm guessing from the words of a guy that experienced them
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firsthand.
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That's pretty neat.
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I guess that speaks to kind of fly shop culture.
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I envy that because now you kind of learn things, you know, seeing it on TV, river monsters
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or Instagram.
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I don't even think that the person that mentioned the fish had seen or had seen them.
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Okay.
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You know, these, these fish have been this, this, this almost mythical thing, you know,
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you know, whenever you speak with a guy, you know, somebody might say, well, it was
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speak of any tiger fish and they go, well, how big do they get?
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And then there's some talk about that.
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And then eventually somebody drops this bomb on you that there's one that grows to 120
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pounds and lives in the Congo River.
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And, you know, this is sort of before, you know, all of the online stuff was available.
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And so, yeah, right.
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There's very limited information about them.
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In fact, it was only about a year later that I, that I came across a book by Jeremy Wade
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and Paul Boote called, Down the Crazy River.
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And you know, I was, by that time I, I'd moved to London and I was living in London and I
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worked in the hardies of Palmel.
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I was very fortunate to work for them for a year.
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Hardies a fast food restaurant?
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No, House of a Hardie.
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The five or six grand.
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Okay.
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And there I also, you know, I mean, you know, I was just all about this fish.
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I mean, you know, anybody that got to know me knew that I wanted to know about this fish.
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And, and my manager comes to me says, well, here's this book, Somewhere Down the Crazy
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River by Jeremy Wade and Paul Boote.
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And you know, it was, it was, it was a book about fishing for golden marcia in India and
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then they're going after the Goliath tiger fish.
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And I was entranced for the first time, I actually saw some validated, you know, sort
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of photographs and stuff for people in fishing fish.
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And you know, it wasn't a month or so that went by.
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And one day there was this guy in a barber trench coat standing in the front of hardies
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and so and I looked at him and I said, well, this doesn't look like our normal sort of
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client.
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And somebody said to me, do you know who that is?
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And I said, no, I don't know who that is.
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And they said, well, that's Paul Boote.
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That's the co-author of that book.
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What are the odds of that?
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What are the odds of that?
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That's crazy.
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I leached onto him like a lamprey eel.
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And I just, I just had to get as much information out of him as possible.
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And he was a little bit cagey about it.
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You know, I suppose, you know, as fishermen are about what they're doing.
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But yeah, he sort of gave a few details and stuff.
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But it was when I said to him, look, I mean, I want to go catch them, but I want to do
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it on fly.
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That he looked at me and he went, buddy, there's just no way.
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That's just not going to happen.
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And that, you know, there also started the sort of the thread of, you know, anybody that
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I that I encountered or sort of that had that had known a little bit about this fish or
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that had encountered or fished for this fish, you know, whenever I mean, I'd like to try
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and catch them on fly.
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You know, it was just said to be impossible.
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You know, I mean, here's a fish that that in all regards, you know, it's the, you know,
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the somebody coined it as the last of the unexplored game fish of the world, you know,
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and and they're really difficult.
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And it must be one of the hardest fish to catch, you know, bar, sealer cat, you know,
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right.
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Yeah, who wants to catch a sealer cat.
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But you know, these things are just tremendously difficult to find.
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You know, if you have a look at the Congo River, you know, it's the second largest river
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in the world.
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It crosses the equator twice.
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It flows chocolate brown most of the time.
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There's hardly a dry season.
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And and so, you know, I mean, in some places, it's two miles across.
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And I think it's also the widest river in the world at 15 miles across Stanley's pool.
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And you know, the deepest river in the world at 400 feet in the conchausa rapids.
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And you know, you just don't know where to start looking, you know, and you know, what's
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also happened is, of course, you know, the Congo has been subject to a wholesale exploitation.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Well, deforestation, you know, the making of charcoal, you know, there's a bit of an
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energy crisis in conchausa and so forth.
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So you know, people are basically cooking, making everything on coals and stuff.
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So they need charcoal.
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And you know, so, so all of the banks of the river are basically blown and, you know, the
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mud slides everywhere and things.
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And that doesn't help for the clarity of the water either.
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And, you know, there's this palm oil trade that's that's going whole, whole, whole, whole
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something unchecked.
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And so, yeah, so, so I think that, you know, not only for the size of the river and for
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the conditions of the river, but also for the exploitation of the river.
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I mean, it's just a really difficult fish to find.
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Yeah.
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You know, also not knowing much about these fish or anything of the sort.
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I'd always wondered that, like a lot of the photos that I see, at least of the main Congo
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river, like where it's, you know, the giant river is the backdrop of almost every one
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of those photos that seems to be the smoky haze in the background or some like ambient
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bloom of smoke.
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I'm like, what?
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What is that going on?
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Are they just constantly burning stuff?
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Or is it just a national sport of the Congo is to burn?
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It kind of adds to like this rustic mystique to the river, although I'm sure it's less
230
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romantic than that.
231
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,680
No, there's a lot of that going on and you always see that haze and there's always this
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orangey type sky, you know, you'll never, you'll rarely see a blue skies and so forth.
233
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,680
And it's mostly because of burning and so on.
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00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,840
Even when you, when you fly over the Congo and when you fly, you know, over the central
235
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Africa or so, there's always this sort of smoky haze.
236
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Yeah.
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And then of course you've got that harmaton, which is the blowing of that Saharan sand,
238
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:50,800
you know, into the sky and that gets carried over the ocean to eventually, you know, eventually
239
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,720
to feed the Amazon forest with nutrients and things like that.
240
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So yeah, it's not your typical blue skies with puffy clouds and monkeys swimming, swinging
241
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from trees and, you know, like animal grazing on the banks.
242
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:11,440
It's a tough, it's become a really tough place, you know, for, for animal and human alike
243
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to survive and to live.
244
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Yeah.
245
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:19,920
So I feel like that encounter in where you were working when you, when you saw this guy
246
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,440
Paul, that, that is an interesting part of your journey towards this fish because I would
247
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,680
think, you know, they say never meet your heroes, not that he's your hero because they
248
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,440
might let you down, but you were met with a level of discouragement, I would think at
249
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,880
the very least that you expressed this interest in the fish and that you wanted to catch one
250
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,120
on fly.
251
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,360
And then here's the guy saying impossible, impossible.
252
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,960
Now at that stage in your time as an angler, did you already have the fire in your eyes
253
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:56,320
to be like, no, it is possible or, or were you kind of like let down to a point that
254
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:03,920
somebody's, you know, making it sound like you shouldn't even waste your time.
255
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,600
I mean, did you see past that?
256
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,400
I never doubted that it was possible.
257
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,920
I always, I knew in my heart that it was possible.
258
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Yeah.
259
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:17,200
I wouldn't say that I did so self-assuredly, you know, I didn't have any reason to think
260
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:23,640
that or so, but it was something I think that I just started envisioning to such an extent
261
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,840
that there was just, it just, it had to be possible.
262
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:33,640
You know, I almost, even if it wasn't possible, I was going to will it into being possible.
263
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,640
Yeah.
264
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:35,640
I mean, yeah.
265
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:41,440
Well, therein lies the difference between you and I think so many people because, you
266
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,040
know, that, that has, I think that is a big part of why I have become so fascinated in
267
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,920
the species of fish, at least in my part of the world.
268
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:57,040
Very few American anglers, if any, I don't know that I've seen any, maybe there's been
269
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:02,200
a couple of Americans who've been over there and chased them, but I'm like, why, why not?
270
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,960
I think there's this fear of failure that people get that keeps them from, I don't know, traveling
271
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:14,280
outside and beyond what the experience of fishing is supposed to be.
272
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,520
It's like, well, chances are you'll fail.
273
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:24,960
So I'm going to stop right here and stay in the comfort zone of where I have assured catches.
274
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,920
You know, I've often wondered about that.
275
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:32,560
I've, you know, coming from Africa, being a fly fisherman and, and, and having been involved
276
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,600
in developing a few fisheries in Africa, you know, not only for Goliath, tiger fish, but
277
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,720
for tarpon and for normal tiger fish.
278
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,440
And even when the seychelles, you know, we sort of, you know, came onto the scene, it
279
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,840
was always difficult for us to attract American fishermen.
280
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It was always the biggest market, definitely our target market, but it was always difficult.
281
00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,000
And I think there are a few factors, you know, that, that, that, that play key, you know,
282
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,880
one of which, one of which is the distance to travel.
283
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,680
Yeah, I think I also think that, you know, American fishermen are just so spoiled.
284
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,120
I mean, look at, look at all of the water that you have.
285
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:15,360
Look at the sort of resources that you do have, you know, you've got tarpon in the Atlantic
286
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:19,800
Ocean, you know, you've got bone fish abound, you've got permanent abound, you know, as
287
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,200
soon as you move inland, you've got bass, you've got trout, you've got steelhead, you've
288
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,120
got species of salmon, you've got alligator garfish.
289
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:33,720
I mean, there's almost everything that you need to satisfy a lifetime of fishing you've
290
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,480
got within the borders of the USA.
291
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,680
And you know, you've also got a fantastic program like, you know, it's arguable whether
292
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,280
you know, wildlife or fishing game, you know, in the US are doing, are always doing a great
293
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,280
job, but they really did developing and in stocking places that, you know, never had
294
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,680
fish before and so forth and opening up.
295
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,920
And then of course you've got such a wide expanse.
296
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,320
I think this is perhaps one of the reasons.
297
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:06,440
And then I suppose, you know, geographically, you know, don't take this as criticism of
298
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:12,120
Americans, but geographically, Americans are really, you know, interested in their own
299
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:13,640
country and so forth.
300
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:19,240
You know, I think it's a, you know, the sort of American pride and things like that is
301
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,600
very good, you know, it's admired it, you know, and pledging allegiance to your flag
302
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:25,600
and so forth.
303
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,400
I mean, you know, and I suppose pledging allegiance to your fishing in your country
304
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,640
almost, you know, whether it be, you know, subconscious or so.
305
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,040
Yeah, I think there's, there's probably, there's definitely some, there's a lot of layers to
306
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,040
unpack there.
307
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,160
I think there's, there's probably some of that.
308
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,840
I will say even for me, you know, we throw the term bucket list out there.
309
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,280
I think maybe I'm an outlier.
310
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:55,560
At least I consider myself that as I've, I've got much greater desire to leave the country
311
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:01,240
and to go somewhere new because I like feeling vulnerable and stuff for some weird reason.
312
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:07,480
Like, you know, I like going somewhere new and seeing things for myself because a lot
313
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,040
of it too is as an American, if I say I want to go to the Congo.
314
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,680
Well, I get met with a lot of people.
315
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,480
Americans will think you're crazy.
316
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:17,960
Yeah, it's dangerous.
317
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,520
Everywhere I mentioned going is dangerous.
318
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:20,520
It's dangerous.
319
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,520
It's dangerous.
320
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,520
And you know, that's part of it.
321
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960
But even within this country, you mentioned alligator gar.
322
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,760
I've got a lot of history with alligator gar.
323
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,240
It's one of my favorite fish, fish for them pretty extensively.
324
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,240
But even here it was kind of like a taboo thing up until pretty recent times to even
325
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,240
one to go.
326
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,240
It's like, what are you doing?
327
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,240
Why would you want to fish for that thing?
328
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,160
And I'm like, am I, am I the only one here that thinks catching a fish over seven feet
329
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,840
long and 200 pounds with big giant teeth is appealing?
330
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:56,520
But there's also this just brand marketing type of sport fishing culture in, in our country
331
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:06,240
that's very much emphasizes the value of certain fish so that you can corral, you know, a base
332
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,320
of customers towards it.
333
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:09,320
I don't know.
334
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,440
It's a, we place value on certain types of fish.
335
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,200
And so people really want to occupy that time doing that.
336
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,920
And, you know, I feel that way too sometimes because I'm like, here I am traveling out
337
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,920
of the country for the last few years.
338
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,240
And I'm like, I feel kind of guilty that I haven't gone and caught a big tarpon on my
339
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,240
own.
340
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,240
I live in Florida.
341
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,760
They're right in my backyard.
342
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,680
Or I feel bad that I haven't gone to like Alaska and fish for like King salmon or musky or
343
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,680
pike.
344
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,280
I mean, here's all these amazing fish, right?
345
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,040
In my country, I should probably be going and catching them first.
346
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,040
But then at the same time, I'm like, you know, I feel like I better start chasing these other
347
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,000
things while I'm younger, fitter.
348
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,020
I don't know what the future will hold.
349
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:53,920
They already locked down the whole world a couple of years ago.
350
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,040
There's no telling if they're going to do that again in the future.
351
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,720
So I think it's better to front load my dream fish now.
352
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,440
And then later I'll just go around catching American stuff.
353
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,640
Interesting you say that because that's sort of the philosophy that I have been following,
354
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,440
you know, when it comes to fishing or traveling to countries, I mean, I've now fished and
355
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,840
guided in 51 countries.
356
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,360
Oh, wow.
357
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:23,600
And funny enough, the USA was my 51st country that I went to, you know, and I always thought
358
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,560
of, and I always sort of said to people, look, there are places in this world that are going
359
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,240
to disappear or there are places that are, you know, sort of going to change a lot.
360
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,640
And then there are places that are going to remain fairly stable.
361
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,040
And I'm my intention is to go and see the places that are that are that have the potential
362
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,760
of either disappearing or, you know, being discovered and being turned into a commercial
363
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
fishery or so.
364
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,600
So my ambition really is to go and find those those unexplored places first.
365
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,640
And last time I checked, there's even some wheelchair access to some of the pudding points
366
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,720
on the trout rivers in the US.
367
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,720
Yeah, right.
368
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,840
Yeah, that's your retirement.
369
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,360
You can you can fish some of those areas into retirement.
370
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:12,280
But yeah, when I look at something like a Goliath tiger fish, I'm like, I mean, I don't
371
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:18,520
know how much longer the fish is even going to be an attainable or viable target.
372
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,120
I think it's going to be a viable target for a very long time.
373
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:27,080
You know, it's just I think that the the places where you'll be able to go and target are
374
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,240
going to become fairly marginal.
375
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:36,800
If they're not marginal already, you know, the there's there's sort of, as I as I mentioned,
376
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,080
there's sort of unfettered or unprecedented, you know, exploitation of natural resources
377
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,080
happening along the way.
378
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,720
Here it is from mining, you know, the DRC, which which contains most of the Congo drainage
379
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:56,480
basin is ridden with all sorts of minerals and metals and things that are sought after
380
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,760
by the whole world.
381
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,040
And so there's and you know, and they don't have the sort of, you know, they're not as
382
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:09,560
a as a as a as a protection or as an environmental, you know, state, you know, they're not nearly
383
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,880
as advanced as some of the some of the countries that we get to deal with.
384
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,880
Yeah.
385
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,120
So, you know, when somebody wants to go in and mine and, you know, mud up a hole, silt
386
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,680
up a whole river, they let it happen.
387
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,760
If somebody wants to go in deforest in the area to make just charcoal for plain cooking
388
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:32,080
and burning and stuff, it happens, you know, the the the the the wild game meat trade,
389
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:38,920
you know, especially with with sort of expats from the Congo living in France is is alive
390
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,960
and well, you know, there's there's a lot of that smuggling and stuff going on.
391
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:50,840
So when or under the table, there really is a wholesale exploitation of of that whole
392
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,280
Congo drainage basin.
393
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Yeah.
394
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,240
And you know, there are three main countries that sort of, you know, have that drainage
395
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,920
basin and stuff, and that would be the Republic of Congo, the Central African Republic and
396
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,440
the DRC.
397
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,440
Yeah.
398
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:11,360
Well, that's that's what's weird to me, too, is that just on the other side of the river,
399
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:16,280
the the difference in I don't want to say culture, but I don't know if it's the political
400
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,560
climate or what it is from the DRC to what is it the the RC side from Brazzaville over
401
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,400
to Kinshasa.
402
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,680
I hear it's a totally different world that's right on the other side of the river from one
403
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,840
another.
404
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:35,000
But I'm what I'm I'm interested in like, so here you are a guy who I imagine by the time
405
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,400
you went to the Congo, you'd already done some travel prior to that.
406
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,080
I wouldn't think you would, you know, it would be a baptism by fire by your first time really
407
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,600
doing extensive travel being somewhere like that.
408
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,480
But at some point, your interest moved into motion.
409
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,760
Here's the fish you're interested in.
410
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,840
You're talking about it.
411
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,080
You're reading books about it.
412
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,080
You're thinking about it.
413
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,640
But at some point in time, you started formulating a game plan and gear started turning and you
414
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,120
launched the first ever campaign there for yourself.
415
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:05,120
What did that look like?
416
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,560
Where did where did you go?
417
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:08,560
What was the approach?
418
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,200
It was interesting, you know, it kind of fell in my lap.
419
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,480
You know, funny enough, as I said, I was always determined to do it.
420
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,960
And I always knew that I would do it.
421
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,080
It was a very strange thing, you know, like a calling like I knew it would happen.
422
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,080
I just didn't know that.
423
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,320
And I didn't actually spend that much time trying to make it happen other than getting
424
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,360
information and making people know of my ambition to do so.
425
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:39,440
Well, I finally came across a friend, Dirk Reicher.
426
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,760
And we were, he was working at a place where we did a fly fishing clinic for beginners
427
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480
and him and I started talking.
428
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,080
And he had read an article that I had written in a magazine, you know, about my ambition
429
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520
to catch the Goliath Tiger fishing.
430
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,840
And that's sort of how I kind of, I almost put out an advertisement saying, I want to
431
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,600
do it, you know, and I lived in brief wanting to do it.
432
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,000
And I knew that at some stage it was almost like, you know, dangling a worm out there
433
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,440
and knowing that I would get a bite.
434
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,000
Is that article still out there somewhere?
435
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,720
I would love to read that.
436
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,760
Um, we can try to track it down after the fact, but I think that's so cool that you're
437
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,760
captured.
438
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,560
It's a very interesting.
439
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,000
You're you captured your, your thoughts in that moment in time.
440
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,400
And it's something that you should go back tangibly and reread after the fact.
441
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,400
That's pretty neat.
442
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:36,520
It's actually, it's an interesting story about the article because I was in my, my
443
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:42,560
third year of university studying journalism and I was supposed to do an assignment as
444
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,440
a final assignment or the major assignment for the year, which was to get into, to write
445
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,080
an investigative journalism article.
446
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,560
And you know, I remember some of my, some of my peers wrote on like winter research to
447
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:02,760
how the hell's angels was, was involved in, you know, the drug trade stuff.
448
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800
And I was sitting around going, well, you know, I'd have to do it about something that
449
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,640
I'm really interested in.
450
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,880
So what I'm really interested in is the glycography.
451
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:18,800
So I wrote an article just about my ambition and investigated myself and my soul.
452
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,720
That's to be, where does this love and this passion and this wild idea of catching one
453
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,840
of my friends comes from, it was the only, only thing that I had ever, only assignment
454
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,280
I had ever failed in at university.
455
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,040
And I then decided, well, now I'm going to go and prove a point.
456
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,720
And so I went and had the article published.
457
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,600
And of all the people that had their articles, you know, handed in the articles and stuff
458
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,080
and got good marks for it, none of them had this published, but I had mine published and
459
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,400
I went to my lecturer and I said, well, what do you think of this?
460
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,400
Oh my gosh.
461
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,600
On what basis were you failed?
462
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,840
I guess if you're researching a topic, it was not an investigative journalism article
463
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,080
by the imagination.
464
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:08,760
It was almost a whimsical article about me as a little boy standing on a pier and the
465
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Zambezi casting a spinner out and seeing this.
466
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Yeah.
467
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,600
Taking my whole life from a normal tiger fish now being absolutely mesmerized by this
468
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,800
goi-fi-fishing infatuated with catching it anyway, this article was read by Dirk Reicher.
469
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,840
We then said, listen, I think I've got an opportunity for us.
470
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,360
I'm also, you know, hell bent on catching these things.
471
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,600
And there's this company called Go Congo and they're on the concha-sa side and they have
472
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,240
an operation and we're going and I'd like you to come with me.
473
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,960
And I was like, okay, let's do it.
474
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,960
Yeah.
475
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,240
I mean, it was a hop skip and a jump, Dirk almost organized everything and we arrived
476
00:30:50,240 --> 00:31:00,960
in concha-sa in 2008 on the first official expedition to attempt to catch a goi-fi-fish
477
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:01,960
on fly.
478
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Yeah.
479
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,960
Yeah.
480
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:04,960
So that was it.
481
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:11,640
It was a very funny story because we had, you know, he was aiming at starting a sort
482
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,880
of an outfit out there, you know, to, you know, to fish for Goliath Tiger fishing.
483
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,360
And he also invited a famous South African fisherman called Henny Papenfus who made these
484
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,080
videos on fishing, not fly fishing, conventional fishing.
485
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:35,400
And Henny arrived at the airport with us, you know, and the DRC sort of only just becomes
486
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,960
stable enough for travel and so forth.
487
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,920
You know, they were marred by, you know, political violence and things of the sorts.
488
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,920
Yeah.
489
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,560
So here we arrive at the rivals' hall of the concha-sa airport at the time, which was,
490
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,800
you know, nothing compared to any arrival all you've ever seen before.
491
00:31:53,800 --> 00:32:01,080
And Henny put all of these rods into one of those bazooka rod carriers.
492
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,320
You know, the one that has bazooka written on it.
493
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,840
I have that one.
494
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:11,560
So he arrives with this thing in the DRC and the security guards look at this thing.
495
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,560
They thought it was a weapon.
496
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,840
They thought this guy had brought a bazooka.
497
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,840
Yeah.
498
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,600
He took the DRC.
499
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,600
And so, you know, Henny with his eyes, this big was carried off by the security personnel
500
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,600
in the DRC.
501
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,360
And, you know, that was his first experience of the DRC anyway.
502
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,360
We were fine.
503
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,760
You know, he showed them the fishing rods and we managed to carry.
504
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,200
Now, they said, you know, because I hear all these things about how every corner they're
505
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,840
looking for ways to kind of like shake you down, get a couple bucks off of you.
506
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,240
We're like, oh, you know, for a hundred dollar fee, you can have this tube back.
507
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,240
This is customary.
508
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:56,320
Like, look, there's something I think that, you know, and I have to be clear.
509
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,840
This is not what we do.
510
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,400
Our current practice in Africa is all above 100%.
511
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,960
So, you know, we're involved with big conservation agencies and so forth.
512
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:13,080
And there isn't a hint or a spec of, you know, bribery or corruption and stuff like that.
513
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,080
But I think it's important to explain to people how Africa works.
514
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,080
Right.
515
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:24,560
And that is that, you know, bribes or corruption as you see it is not how they see it.
516
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Yeah.
517
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:31,560
You know, if you've, you know, if you've taken up, you know, your family and the influence
518
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,320
of your family or so will sometimes enable you to take up position as a police officer.
519
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,360
They'll often pay quite a bit of money to make you a police officer, to get you into
520
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,360
the police force.
521
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,440
And after that, the expectation is, is that job is going to start paying.
522
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,280
And trust me, the salary of their job is not going to be anything like that.
523
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,760
I mean, it is, it's not by no means do I condone it.
524
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,240
But I think that people often make a really big deal about the sort of greasing of palms
525
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,760
and stuff like that in Africa, which is, which is really just how Africa works.
526
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:06,760
Right.
527
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,480
In many cases, it's just how it works.
528
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:09,760
Everybody wants his cut.
529
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,760
Right.
530
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,400
So, you know, if you're, if you're a tourist and you arrive in Africa and, you know, and
531
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,160
you've got, you've got money and stuff.
532
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,440
I mean, obviously they want some of that money.
533
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,440
Right.
534
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,640
They're, you're there to do something.
535
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,640
You've budgeted for something.
536
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,000
Let's say you're a film crew or let's say you're a fisherman or something like that.
537
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,240
You know, I mean, you know, it's almost like paying somebody, you know, to drive you in
538
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:37,600
a taxi, you know, somebody to organize you for your permission to do something or something
539
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,680
like that, you know, or somebody that offers you, you know, they often have to, you have
540
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,000
to apply for a license to do something and it's going to take a month for you to get
541
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,000
this license.
542
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,960
No, there's actually no, no period of time that, that, that anybody can tell you that
543
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,080
it will take to do this.
544
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,000
But there's somebody there saying, Hey, listen, I can get it done quicker.
545
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:57,920
Right.
546
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:06,360
So, you know, I think that we're, we're sometimes jumping to pointing fingers and corruption
547
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,360
and listen to it too quickly in Africa.
548
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,600
I don't think that we quite understand Africa.
549
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,600
Yeah.
550
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,520
Well, I think that's a way better perspective to have of it.
551
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,040
I'm actually glad you mentioned that.
552
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,000
I, I think that's one of the worst mistakes.
553
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,880
I'm sure a lot of Americans do it, especially when we come from a place that's, you know,
554
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,600
restructured a certain sort of way and, but I never want to show up at somebody else's,
555
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:36,280
you know, country, much less somebody else's house and project my customs and my set of
556
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:43,000
values upon them, you know, basically measure the way that I live my life upon someone else's
557
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,280
way of life, especially in their house.
558
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,600
So, you know, I think it's one of those kind of humorous things, if anything.
559
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:51,600
Yeah.
560
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,360
Well, it was explained to me, you know, when we went into the Republic of Congo to, to
561
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,840
look for giant tarpon, you know, the guy that helped us there, he explained it to us very
562
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,840
nicely.
563
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,480
He said, listen, everybody just wants his piece, you know, mean look around you, you
564
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,840
know, and we looked around us.
565
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,680
I mean, it was, it was slightly derelict, you know, I mean, you know, there's no service
566
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,680
delivery.
567
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,000
Every house that needs power has a generator outside.
568
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,440
You have to go and get your own diesel.
569
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,320
You have to bring your own water, et cetera.
570
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680
There's no infrastructure or anything like that.
571
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,520
Nobody's providing anybody with anything.
572
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:25,520
Yeah.
573
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,520
But that was very opportunistic person.
574
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,040
So if you've got the ability or the power to help somebody, then you expect something
575
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
in return.
576
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:38,880
And that's it, you know, so it's a fair trade to some.
577
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,280
But like I said, I don't condone any sort of corruption.
578
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,240
Because, you know, on a much higher scale, you know, when big mining companies try, you
579
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,520
know, come in and they, you know, and they decimate the land for minerals and so forth,
580
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,760
where, you know, there should have been more care taken for conservation.
581
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,120
That's when it goes, you know, a little bit too far.
582
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,120
Yeah, right.
583
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:02,480
Like I said, our current practice in the Central African Republic is completely above board
584
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,000
and everything's done by the book, but it's, it's tedious and it's hard work.
585
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,240
And you know, it sometimes looks like nothing's going to get done because, you know, we're
586
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:19,360
going, basically we walk, we're walking the line, you know, to such an extent that, you
587
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,840
know, it would have been much easier the other way, but we've chosen the hard way.
588
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,400
And I'll tell you, it can be soul destroying sometimes to try and get something pushed
589
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,520
over the line and just being pushed to the back of the line again.
590
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:33,520
Yeah.
591
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,800
Well, showing up there with fishing rods, but I'm sure you got some interesting looks
592
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:38,800
there.
593
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,800
It's like, what in the world?
594
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:46,600
But also, you know, you're going to kind of foreign grounds in more ways than one, but
595
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:47,880
you show up at the river.
596
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,600
Now, is this a place where there are locals who have local knowledge of the river and the
597
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,600
species of fish?
598
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,240
Or is that fish even a kind of a foreign concept to the people that live there?
599
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,080
I mean, what, what is your source of direction for where you even going to begin trying to
600
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,080
catch one?
601
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Look, you know, by this time, this, you know, the the go Kongo outfit had had actually hosted
602
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,000
a few, you know, fishermen.
603
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:22,120
And, and so there was definitely an awareness by the locals that, you know, we were there
604
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,200
to fish and that we were looking for the Goliath.
605
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,600
And you know, they know it as a banger.
606
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,600
Yeah.
607
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:34,960
And, you know, on our first trip, you know, we went there, we first we went into Kinshasa
608
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,240
from Kinshasa, where you had to take a taxi up to Maluku Harbor, which was above the Kinshasa
609
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:41,240
Rapids.
610
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,240
And from Maluku Harbor, we had to travel about 100 kilometers north to where the Black River
611
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:46,240
came in.
612
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:51,080
And it was a famous, the famous hunting or Goliath hunting grounds of a guy by the name
613
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,880
of Douglas Dan.
614
00:38:52,880 --> 00:39:00,200
And Douglas Dan in the 60s and 70s was this, this guy, this guy from Belgium that he basically
615
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,840
pioneered Goliath, Goliath fishing.
616
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,280
Yes, I mean, this guy was responsible for most of the IGFA records and so forth.
617
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,920
They had a Goliath Tiger Club and he's got this, this famous book called Goliath, the
618
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,920
biggest tiger fish in the world.
619
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Yeah.
620
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,440
I'm trying to get my hands on that book.
621
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,840
Yeah, it's a difficult book to find.
622
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,400
But, but so, so, so this was his form.
623
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,280
These were his former stomping grounds.
624
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,920
And so we arrived there and the locals had definitely knowledge of the fact that that's
625
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:34,920
what we were there to do.
626
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:41,800
And, you know, we had to go into the nearby town and we were, you know, we were on a big
627
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,240
live aboard boat with virtually no amenities.
628
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:50,320
I mean, you know, I mean, I had to tell you the sort of conditions we were living in that
629
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,320
trip.
630
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,840
It was quite vulgar to be honest.
631
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,880
We had to go into the nearby town and first ask permission from the chief to come and
632
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,000
fish for these fish and then get his blessing.
633
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:08,440
And you have to understand about these guys is they all had to dabble in some fishing
634
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,120
or so at some stage, you know, as I said, there's very little wildlife or so left in
635
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,120
it.
636
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,320
The river, the biggest source of protein is from fish out of the river.
637
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:19,320
So many of them.
638
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:26,680
And, you know, when we sat with the chief, he actually mentioned something that to this
639
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:35,400
day rings true now, whether he knew this on this fish or what it was, but he sat and our
640
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,200
interpreters said basically that the chief is saying, yes, we can come and fish and so
641
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:46,120
forth, but that we must remember that the Goliath tiger fish or the Umbengar has got
642
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,880
its own feeding patterns and behaviors.
643
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,480
It's got times that it feeds and it's got times that it rests, you know, and you sort
644
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,880
of sit and you listen to this old guy and you kind of go, yeah, whatever, man, just
645
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,160
give me the permission to go fishing.
646
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,160
I want to go fishing.
647
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,680
What fish is really going to adhere to these strange sort of feeding times that you're
648
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
talking about.
649
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,600
But it became very apparent to us that there were times on that river when everything was
650
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,640
dead quiet and nothing was happening.
651
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,640
And then suddenly you would start seeing Goliath tiger fish either break the surface or roll
652
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,120
and stuff for a short period of time and then stop again.
653
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,040
And this time went by.
654
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:35,040
This has also become way more apparent to me in fishing in the Chinko River and in fishing
655
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:41,240
for these fish elsewhere is that they, I don't know how to explain it.
656
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,400
I mean, we can we could dig down into that maybe at a later stage.
657
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:52,120
You know, once we progress more about what we've learned about this fish, but I believe
658
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,920
that this fish is unlike any other fish in how it feeds and when it chooses to feeds and
659
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,640
its ability to feed.
660
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,240
I think that they're extremely effective predators.
661
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:11,760
We seem to think that they are these gluttonous killing machines with these vampire like interlocking
662
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,360
fangs and they just swim and just trump their way through whatever they want to eat and so
663
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,360
forth.
664
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,280
But it turns out that it's definitely not like that.
665
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,120
And it's well documented in Douglas Dan's books.
666
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,480
And it was well documented afterwards is that, you know, the guys that fish for these things
667
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,400
with live bait will often have the live bait panic and show signs of a predator being around
668
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:43,840
or show signs of distress for some time before the Goliath strikes it.
669
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:50,280
It means that this fish really does seem to size up its prey.
670
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,440
And what you often find is that, you know, a Goliath will hit its prey behind the pictorial
671
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,320
and dorsal fins almost every time.
672
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,080
Even when you dissect them and you find pieces of fish and stuff in them, you'll see, you
673
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,680
know, the whole fish, you can put the fish together from behind its pictorial and dorsal
674
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,000
fins and from its front.
675
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:17,160
And interesting, you know, a lot of this fish's food, you know, have, you know, barbed spines
676
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,080
in their pictorial and dorsal fins.
677
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,640
And the Goliath definitely tries to avoid that.
678
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,880
And so what he'll do is, you know, if he finds his prey, he'll size it up, he'll swim around
679
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,440
it, look at it and then strike it, strike it pictorial dorsal fins first, and then he'll
680
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,280
come around and he'll likely take the rest.
681
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,840
And so we, and we proved it a few times, you know, through either, you know, finding a
682
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,960
Goliath, dead Goliath or something like that, dissecting it and finding how its prey has
683
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,160
been chopped up like that and so forth.
684
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:54,520
And you'll also see if there's some, you know, I'm so infatuated with these fish.
685
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,280
I sometimes watch videos of people that have them in aquariums.
686
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,880
Yeah, and I literally, when it's feeding time, see how this Goliath feeds and stuff.
687
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,880
And they do it the same way every time.
688
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,800
And they sort of grab the fish on its back, behind pictorial and dorsal fins first, shake
689
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,920
it, sever it, and then come back for the rest, you know.
690
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:22,120
And it's sort of, you know, so, you know, that and, you know, obviously what this, you
691
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,680
know, what the, what the chief of the village said about these things having feeding times
692
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,120
and how selective they are of their prey and how they inspect their prey.
693
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,040
That definitely tells us we're dealing with a, with a very, very different animal, you
694
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:41,240
know, in the sense that it's quite selective and it's quite picky over what it eats actually.
695
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:42,240
Yeah.
696
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:47,560
Now, were you trying to catch them with a fly right off the bat or was your first objective,
697
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:54,560
I just want to catch one by any means just to, you know, get my hands on the fish or
698
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,840
was it all about trying to get one on the fly right off the bat?
699
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,520
I mean, your first time out there, is it?
700
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,520
Is there any other way?
701
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:02,520
Yeah.
702
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,400
So you're right.
703
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,000
It's, it's fly or nothing.
704
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,000
I love it.
705
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,440
I love the commitment to stay in that.
706
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Was it successful?
707
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,000
I guess that's the ultimate question.
708
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,880
Was that first attempt success?
709
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:21,040
I guess success can be measured in a lot of different ways, but look, we were definitely
710
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,480
up against the odds, you know, or, you know, we got onto these boats and stuff and saw how
711
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,480
vast this river was.
712
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,480
Yeah.
713
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,000
With the fish find or anything and just, you know, this chocolate brown water, you know,
714
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,920
shunting down this, this river canal and all of these boats traversing there and, and, and,
715
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:43,800
and so it was definitely, we had our work cut out for us, but we, we actually managed to
716
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,120
get quite a few strikes from Goliaths, case full strikes on fly.
717
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:55,120
In fact, more so than what our compatriots, you know, fishing with bait did.
718
00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:01,360
We would come back and having literally made, I don't know, 500 to 1000 casts that day,
719
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,520
we might have gotten three or four strikes from Goliaths and stuff, very, very difficult
720
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,120
to, to hook them obviously, as you know.
721
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,720
And you know, the other guys would sometimes come back having, having caught nothing or
722
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,040
having achieved nothing, you know.
723
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,880
And so, so there was definitely, you know, there was a way of enticing these fish.
724
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:21,880
All right.
725
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,200
But, you know, we didn't manage to get any of them stick.
726
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,760
There's a heartbreaking video online of me hooking the first one.
727
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:30,760
Yeah.
728
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,040
And then losing it.
729
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:41,280
And, and so we sort of, you know, we, you know, it was at that point in time that we
730
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,520
had to start looking at, you know, the type of hooks that we were using and so forth.
731
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:52,360
And it turns out that, that this Goliath and the lining in its mouth is actually quite
732
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:57,040
interesting, interestingly is quite soft, you know, whereas you would normally try and
733
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,000
at least, you know, if you can't, because I mean, their, their mouths are just bone.
734
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Right.
735
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,200
I mean, there's no, there's no way you're going to drive a hook through the bone of that
736
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,200
thing.
737
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,800
You've got to find somewhere where this hook can purchase.
738
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,800
But we did find that sort of the flesh in their mouths, you know, it's very soft.
739
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:19,720
And I think it's sort of another adaptation for when they do make a mistake.
740
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,560
And let's say they get one of those barbed spines, you know, stuck in their, in the flesh
741
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,200
of their mouths, that they can, you know, open their mouths, shake their heads and actually
742
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,960
rid themselves of those spines.
743
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:29,960
Okay.
744
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:30,960
That makes sense.
745
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:37,120
So, so your attempt to, to just hook, let's say the lining of that fish's mouth and side
746
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:42,040
and then generally keep it on and fight it, you know, and stuff was, it was also not working
747
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:50,560
and so, so, so we resorted to a very specific hook that actually had a bit of flex in its
748
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,720
shank and they didn't have a curved tip, but at a straight tip, it was a perfect round
749
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:55,720
J-Bend hook.
750
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:59,160
In fact, it was an owner hook, like a 5-0 worm round.
751
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,160
Yeah.
752
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:05,560
And this sort of found purchase in the, in the only place where you could really penetrate
753
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,320
a hook was in the, in the Goliath skill plate.
754
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,520
That hook can go through its skill plate, you know, in between and then of course in its
755
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,040
skill rakes and stuff, if you manage to get a hook up in there and then occasionally in
756
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,200
the corner of its mouth, there's, there's almost just the right sort of structure for
757
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:29,280
you to be able to hook a fish, but, but the hook type became sort of key to our success.
758
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,920
And you know, once we switched to that hook type and, and tied our flies that we had gotten
759
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,520
sort of we, we developed, you know, we went from, we started off by fishing, you know,
760
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:45,840
these giant flies on 15 weight rods with rattles and all sorts of things in there, 700 grain
761
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,720
shooting head, you know, far sinking lines, you're fishing 10 weights with intermediate
762
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,440
lines quite close to the surface with much smaller baitfish backings and things like
763
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,440
that.
764
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,160
And, and that's how we sort of got our most success.
765
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,920
And then finally, you know, the hook was the answer, the using the right hook was definitely
766
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:02,920
the key.
767
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,160
And that's when Dirk, the guy that had organized the trip, you know, he managed to land the
768
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,440
first Goliath officially ever caught on fly.
769
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,160
Oh, wow.
770
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,400
And do you know, it's funny enough, people, people, you know, say to me, oh, weren't you
771
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,360
disappointed, you know, that it wasn't you because it was your passion, et cetera.
772
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:28,400
And I think that, that there in, I think people miss, miss the point or they've sort of completely
773
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,880
missed what it is that I want to do.
774
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,600
And I don't think it's an ego thing or anything like that.
775
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,120
I think it's an awareness thing.
776
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,280
I said that we can do it.
777
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:39,760
I said that this can be done.
778
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,080
I knew it could be done.
779
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,560
It had to be done, right?
780
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,680
And it wasn't about who did it.
781
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,760
It was just proving that it could be done.
782
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,480
And so, so for me, I'm definitely, I think that it was well deserved of Dirk, you know,
783
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,200
he put the whole trip together, et cetera, and you know, and he goes down as the guy in
784
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,800
history that got the first one ever on fly.
785
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,320
And I was very happy about that, you know.
786
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,320
Yeah.
787
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,400
I think anytime you get a group of people that goes off to do something that ambitious,
788
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:15,320
it's, it's, it's a collective effort on everyone's behalf, whether it be, I mean, because I'm
789
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,600
wondering too, the way that you're fishing, are y'all, that's such an enormous river.
790
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,320
Are you just, are you just casting and casting and casting blind or?
791
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,840
Cast off the cast off.
792
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,840
Okay.
793
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,200
I don't know if you're looking for some sort of sign on top of the water, whether it be
794
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:37,440
baitfish shimmering, indicating something's below or do they roll like, I think I've read
795
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,440
or heard you mentioned something about the roll.
796
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:40,440
Yeah.
797
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,000
Where we are in the Chinko, they roll, what we saw in the main congos that they often
798
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,480
broke the surface.
799
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,880
And I think that they break the surface from a, you know, they'll, they'll leap clean,
800
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,040
you know, you know, into the air and break the surface.
801
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,720
And I think that's quite often on an attack of something.
802
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:56,720
Yeah.
803
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:03,880
Well, I mean, that could I, I'll tell you what, you've never, ever seen a fish move
804
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:04,880
like this.
805
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,240
There's no other fish that can move like a delight.
806
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:13,240
I can, you know, I've caught Barracuda, I've caught partner, I've caught GTs, I, you
807
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,680
are who offshore Marlin selfish, the works.
808
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:25,120
Nothing moves like this fish, you know, the way the speed at which they can, they can,
809
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:32,080
they can attack something, the, the way that they can turn in the attack and the speed.
810
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,880
I mean, it is, it's unparalleled, you never, and I think that sometimes, you know, if
811
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,640
they hit something quite close to this, because they do hunt quite close to the surface sometimes.
812
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:42,640
Yeah.
813
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,360
When they hit something there, they follow through, you know, it, you know, it's just
814
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,000
so that, you know, they'll, they'll break the surface with something or they'll, if
815
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,520
they've missed something, you know, they'll break the surface.
816
00:51:54,520 --> 00:52:01,040
You know, where we are now, you know, fast forward, you know, a decade or more, you know,
817
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,040
on the, on the Chinko River, we often see them rolling.
818
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:11,560
And, you know, I mean, I believe it to be feeding behavior, you know, I mean, some people
819
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:17,880
have, have compared them to the Dorado and Bolivia that roll for, you know, no apparent
820
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,800
feeding behavior or anything of the sorts.
821
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:25,640
And, you know, I mean, it's definitely not to gulp air or anything of the sorts because
822
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,320
the place where we find them are rolling the most is right below a quite a thunderous shoot.
823
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,880
So, I mean, the water is well oxygenated and so forth.
824
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:41,920
So, so, you know, I mean, I'm 80% satisfied that the fish roll because of feeding behavior,
825
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,160
you know, and depending on their prey sorts, but, you know, not everybody's convinced,
826
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,240
you know, as to, as to why they roll.
827
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:53,800
Yeah, we saw them break the surface quite often and when you were asking about where
828
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,080
we were fishing for them, it was funny because, you know, we were fishing where the Black
829
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,000
River flowed into the main Congo.
830
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,000
And the whole Black River having, you know, coming from a jungle that's quite tan and
831
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:11,120
stained, the water's slightly cooler, the whole Black River disappears under the Congo.
832
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:17,680
And then you'll often see, you know, 400, 600 yards downstream, you'll literally hear
833
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:23,520
this boil, this, like that, and you'll look down on this, just in the middle of nowhere,
834
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:28,760
this water that was channeled under the main Congo boils up, this Black Boil of water and
835
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,560
then just disappears again.
836
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:31,560
That's interesting.
837
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:38,120
So, the sort of the flow and the currents and things that happen in a body of water
838
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,360
that's this big are just mind-blowing.
839
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,800
You don't understand, you don't know where to start looking.
840
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:53,760
And funny enough, I hooked my fish, you know, right next to the edge, you know, along, you
841
00:53:53,760 --> 00:54:00,960
know, where there was some bull rushes or some high synth and stuff going that it had
842
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,560
made quite a bit of an undercut bank.
843
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,720
And I was fishing along that bank when I hooked my fish.
844
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:09,480
I was actually trying for something completely different, you know, we'd be fishing for,
845
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:14,840
you know, 10 or 11 days, making 500 to 1000 casts a day with, you know, only a few strikes
846
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:15,840
a day.
847
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,240
And you know, you eventually you say like, what else is there?
848
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:22,360
It's just, you know, trying some, like, to lobby a therapy or something.
849
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,760
Just something on the line.
850
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,760
And funny enough, I hooked a fish there.
851
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,760
So, they're quite often found, you know, and that was the first instance of it, but they're
852
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:40,200
quite often found where you would least expect to find them, you know.
853
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,360
So, yeah, they're, they dwell where they want.
854
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,800
I mean, they're the kings of the river, right?
855
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,560
I mean, they, yeah.
856
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:55,240
Well, so then, I mean, at the very least, there was some validation that yes, they can't,
857
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:59,120
you kind of knew they could be caught on fly, but then you witnessed them, you and you yourself
858
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,120
hooked them on fly.
859
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:08,040
Sorry, you looking to return to the same place over and over until you get it done or did
860
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:14,400
your mind immediately go into, let's start looking at tributaries, other places.
861
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:15,760
Yeah, no, no.
862
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:21,560
Look after that, we just, I just realized that, you know, we had to find sort of, you
863
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:27,960
know, it was, it was heartbreaking seeing what was happening in the convo and stuff.
864
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:33,320
And you know, also, you know, I mean, I don't know, I really like releasing my fish.
865
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,120
And you know, the expectation was always to, you know, like of the locals as well as to
866
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:39,200
like to kill the fish and so forth.
867
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,760
And I mean, you know, we refused.
868
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:48,260
We released our fish and see, we just not going to go that way.
869
00:55:48,260 --> 00:55:55,480
And so, I sort of realized that we were going to have to find a better place to do it, you
870
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,480
know, especially on fly.
871
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,360
We're going to have to find the sort of, you know, I explained it as finding like the
872
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,040
Shangri-La of the Goliath Tiger fish.
873
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:12,480
We're to find a smaller tributary of the Congo that had clearer water and that was, that
874
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,240
had, that was uninhabited.
875
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:18,880
Oh, that didn't have the same sort of human pressure on it, right?
876
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,760
You know, the sort of the place that the big black hole somewhere in Africa where the devil
877
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,640
deals the Goliath Tiger fish like asian and spades into the river to, you know, terrify
878
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,160
man and fish alike, right?
879
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,160
This was the sort of the epicenter of the Goliath, you know, the, so, so I knew that
880
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:43,040
that's, that's what we needed in order to, to take this one step further to sort of,
881
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,480
to sort of be able to say, look, we can go here and we can go and try.
882
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,080
Like there's a, there's a valid place to go and try.
883
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,080
Yeah.
884
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,160
What is the search process there?
885
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,880
Just looking for, for creeks and rivers that connect directly to the main Congo river or
886
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:03,160
use a broad network of context that you have and through.
887
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:10,600
That's, that's, that's opened a completely, you know, new can of worms in the sense that,
888
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:16,640
you know, you know, ultimately this fish is the size it is because of the river system
889
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:17,640
that it's in.
890
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:18,640
Right?
891
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,400
I mean, you look at, for instance, how your alligator guards are from your Mississippi
892
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:22,400
River system.
893
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:23,400
Am I right?
894
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:29,520
You look at how your giant are from your Amazonian river basin and, you know, the giant
895
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,280
mcconk catfish is from the mcconk river, all of these giant rivers breed giant fish
896
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,280
or inhabited by giant fish.
897
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:45,600
And when you start looking into their tributaries and so forth, it's almost by reason or by
898
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,440
deduction, you know, not somewhere where you're going to find them.
899
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,960
You know, they, they want to be in that main big body of water and so forth.
900
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:59,440
And so, you know, I started, you know, then I started sort of asking around even more
901
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,760
and saying like, this is what I'm looking for.
902
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,600
You know, and then anybody with sort of any knowledge of the concocted me and said to
903
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,920
me, look, I mean, you may have succeeded in catching one Goliath on fly, but now you're
904
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,080
looking for something that doesn't exist.
905
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,080
Yeah.
906
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:20,760
Now, like for sure, we can tell you categorically that what you're looking for does not exist.
907
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,440
For one, there's no uninhabited river in the Congo.
908
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:30,360
And I mean, I would meet with guys, I would, you know, I would be at social events or parties
909
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,200
or wherever in a club, in a, on a beach, whatever.
910
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,120
And as soon as I heard that somebody was working in the Congo or the DRC or anything like that,
911
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:38,640
I immediately said, like, well, what do you do there?
912
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,680
I mean, inevitably one of them was a miner and I said, listen, do you have a river where
913
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:43,680
your mine is?
914
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:44,680
And they go, yeah.
915
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:45,680
And I said, like, tell me about this river.
916
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,280
And they go, this is what it's like.
917
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:48,280
And this is what it's like.
918
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,280
And I say, like, and all they can I tied your fish in there.
919
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:54,200
And nobody like, you know, right.
920
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,560
And they said, and also by the way, those mines, you know, they're just blowing out those rivers
921
00:58:58,560 --> 00:58:59,560
and stuff.
922
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,880
You know, you said, I mean, there's so many people on these rivers and things.
923
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:10,880
And so I was sort of, yeah, I don't know, you know, it's the second largest river basin
924
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:11,880
in the world.
925
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:18,720
But somehow I sort of, I wasn't sure, you know, but I sort of, I was satisfied that
926
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,600
it's been proven that this fish could be caught.
927
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,080
Look, I mean, you know, going to the Congo is quite an emotional journey.
928
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:29,560
There's something that happens in the continent and the center of this continent and stuff
929
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:30,560
that really does.
930
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:36,640
You know, if you ever read that book, Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, and if you
931
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:41,560
go to the Congo, you, you sort of experienced that.
932
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:47,960
There's a, I don't know what it is, you know, like whether it's a weird, you know, continental
933
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:53,960
feng shui or something that just kind of throw you off, but your dreams become so vivid,
934
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,000
your, the way you look at things and everything, you're never quite at rest.
935
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,880
You're never comfortable in that place.
936
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:09,720
And, you know, it's, it's, it's quite a soul harassing experience going into the Congo
937
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:10,720
for some reason.
938
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,000
It just, it just has this effect on you.
939
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:20,240
And so I was, I was sort of, I was tentative, you know, I still, I wanted to find a place
940
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,280
like this, but I was tentative and, and in, in, in, in like just, you know, packing my
941
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,680
bags and following the first lead.
942
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:28,680
Yeah.
943
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:36,600
But, you know, time went by and, and that's when, when a friend of mine that knew about
944
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,360
my infatuation, so, you know, I had this friend that we fished all around the world
945
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,440
together, you know, whether it was in the Galapagos for Stripe Marlin or whether it was
946
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,600
Bolivia and Jungle for Gerardo and stuff.
947
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,760
And we went around the whole world fishing together.
948
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:49,760
Yeah.
949
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:57,320
And, and he called me up and he said, Hey, by the way, I'm going hunting.
950
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,360
I'm going into the Central African Republic to go hunting.
951
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:07,320
And the guy there, the pH, the professional hunter, a guide, said to me, look, bring your
952
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,440
rod because I know you like fishing.
953
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:16,480
So we, because we have Goliath tiger fish in the river, in a small river that flows
954
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,600
clear in an area.
955
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,920
And I said to him, listen, but give me this person's details.
956
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:24,920
Give me this guy's details.
957
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,560
So he gave me the details.
958
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,040
And so this was, you know, for like 2008, we, we, you know, we came back from the DRC
959
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,560
and this was in 2013.
960
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,560
Right.
961
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,280
So about five years later.
962
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:44,280
And so I wrote to this guy and his name is Eric, Eric Maraj.
963
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:51,120
And you know, he was a, he's a Swedish national, but he was a, he's born Central African, lived
964
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:52,120
there all of his life.
965
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:57,400
His father was a famous Central African that went around drilling wells for people around
966
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:58,400
Central Africa.
967
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,760
And so forth and they'd settled in Bangui.
968
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:07,400
They were hunters and they were running these hunts into the Chinco National Park.
969
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:12,960
They'd actually, I think it obtained the concession of the park.
970
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,880
And I wrote to him and I said, hi Eric, you know, it's Francois, I'm a, I'm a fisherman.
971
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,960
And I believe that you have the most difficult fish in the world to catch, you know, in your
972
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:24,960
rivers.
973
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,080
I believe your rivers flow clear and that there's no people on that river.
974
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:37,200
And he wrote back, you know, saying, hi Francois Eric, you know, I'm not a fisherman, I'm a
975
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,600
hunter, but in my opinion, the Goliath Tigerfish is actually quite an easy fish to catch.
976
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,600
Oh, geez.
977
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:48,520
You know, and, you know, we use them as a food source in the camp.
978
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:54,960
And, and, you know, and, and by the way, that area that you're talking about that river,
979
01:02:54,960 --> 01:03:02,200
I can tell you that there's no man that lives there and that it flows clear in the dry season.
980
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:08,080
And that when I fly over that river in the dry season and I look down, I see big silver
981
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:09,560
fish from the air.
982
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:13,120
Oh my goodness.
983
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,120
And so that was it.
984
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,960
Do you have any like reservations?
985
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,920
I've become so skeptical that people, other people, especially non anglers ability to
986
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:28,680
identify fish properly because here, you know, if I, in Florida, for example, I'll have people
987
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,040
tell me, Oh, we caught some alligator gar last week.
988
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,440
And I'm like, well, no, you didn't because they don't live here.
989
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,200
Or I'm like, you know, have you seen any alligator gar?
990
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,360
Oh yeah, there's some right in this creek right down the road.
991
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,240
I'm like, no, that's something that's the smaller cousins.
992
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:51,160
Like constantly people misidentifying or exaggerating or, or getting a story wrong
993
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:57,480
or, you know, making up these big tales of giant Volkswagen size catfish that live below
994
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:58,640
the dam.
995
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:08,000
So did you have any concern that maybe there was, um, you know, because I would be thinking
996
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:13,920
that that's probably just the regular smaller cousin, the striped by Tautus or whatever
997
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,920
they're called.
998
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:23,680
You know, I should have probably been more suspicious and, you know, as, um, because
999
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,040
yes, there are people that make that mistake, they especially make that mistake with the
1000
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:32,400
Tanzanian tiger fish that, you know, quite a few people have branded wrongly as a Goliath
1001
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:33,400
tiger fish.
1002
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:38,360
And, you know, and I think they do so often just to get hits or likes or, you know, to
1003
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,280
to their Instagram or something of sorts.
1004
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:47,560
But, um, I probably should have been more suspicious, but I don't know.
1005
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,000
I don't know why.
1006
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:55,560
You know, once again, it was sort of this fish and I have shared this, this very strange
1007
01:04:55,560 --> 01:05:00,280
relationship in the sense that every time I think that I'm done with it, you know, that
1008
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,080
I've had enough of it or so.
1009
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,080
And I didn't think so after the DRC.
1010
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,760
You know, I mean, I was still infatuated with it, but I was done with it.
1011
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,360
That the DRC trip was a tough trip.
1012
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:11,360
Yeah.
1013
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:16,960
And, um, this, this, this fish just finds me again, you know, and it haunts me.
1014
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:22,880
I don't know what it is, you know, we're, we're intertwined for some reason.
1015
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:24,000
And I just, I knew it.
1016
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:32,600
I knew that this had to be the place, you know, and so, uh, and so yeah, I hardly even
1017
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:38,200
asked them any more questions or so, you know, I think that then the biggest question was
1018
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,560
immediately was, well, now is it safe to go?
1019
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,440
Because, I mean, at that point in time, the Central African Republic was still embroiled
1020
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,880
in a, in, in a, in basically a, like a religious war.
1021
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,280
Like it was a failed state.
1022
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,160
There was a coup on the government.
1023
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:01,400
And, um, and, uh, you know, there was, there was actually an incident in the battle of
1024
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:06,400
Bangui where a whole bunch of South African soldiers that were sent, you know, up to,
1025
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:10,560
to help or to aid the current government, you know, that they were all killed in an
1026
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,960
ambush and stuff in the, in the capital and so forth.
1027
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,160
So then it became a matter of really, you know, was it safe?
1028
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:19,160
Could I go?
1029
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:30,280
You know, um, but, but for some reason I, I, I, I didn't even consider not going.
1030
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:35,560
I just had to go after the words that gave, I just believed them.
1031
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,640
And I just said, like, I have to, have to go, you know, I have to go and check this
1032
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:40,640
out.
1033
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,320
So yeah, people thought I was crazy.
1034
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:50,120
Um, is it true that I think I actually wrote this down that, uh, or maybe it was before
1035
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:57,320
setting up logistics of a, of a, of a pro of a program down there later on, down the
1036
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:01,640
fact that I read it at some point in time while you're either going for the first time
1037
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:09,040
or maybe setting up, um, you know, plans for, for future camps or expeditions to be launched
1038
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:15,280
that two journalists got, uh, got killed somewhere in that area.
1039
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:16,800
Yes.
1040
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,360
They, they did.
1041
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:26,560
Um, but that's not, yeah, that was maybe my timeline is off, but I saw something while
1042
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,280
reading the latest stage.
1043
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:29,280
I mean, okay.
1044
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,720
You know, that's not really something that I'd like to comment about.
1045
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,480
Um, I think that those guys were a bit stupid.
1046
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:37,480
Yeah.
1047
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:45,200
You know, there was a, there was a known danger and they went unaccompanied, um, after a curfew,
1048
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:51,000
um, into a known dangerous area and, and, and got killed.
1049
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:58,440
Um, and so, you know, it's the same as anybody that would go surfing in a river mouth at
1050
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,800
night where there are bull sharks.
1051
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:01,800
Right.
1052
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:02,800
Yeah.
1053
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:03,800
Now suddenly surfing is dangerous.
1054
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:08,840
You know, I mean, just don't be stupid.
1055
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:09,840
Right.
1056
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,920
There are still places in the US where you also, you're not going to go after dark alone
1057
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:15,920
unaccompanied.
1058
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:16,920
Yeah.
1059
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,440
You understand a very good chance of either being attacked.
1060
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:20,440
Oh, a hundred percent.
1061
01:08:20,440 --> 01:08:26,800
I was actually, I was actually just mentioning that to a, to a previous guest who's similar
1062
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:32,480
travels, uh, where I was like, there's places in the United States of America where I would
1063
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:37,040
sooner walk down the street in Afghanistan than go walk down some of these neighborhoods
1064
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:38,040
at night.
1065
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:39,280
So I, I totally get that.
1066
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,040
Uh, we, we, we look past that for whatever reason, the dangers that are right in our
1067
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:44,040
own backyard.
1068
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:52,920
Um, but, but, um, look, I mean, there were, there were lots of, um, you know, it was a
1069
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:58,720
little bit of controversy around that incident, et cetera, and, um, you know, like I said,
1070
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,400
it's difficult for me to comment to be like, or to give you the details that I know about
1071
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,680
it because these guys were just stupid.
1072
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:06,800
Right.
1073
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:12,360
And so it had nothing to do with the country or with the Congo being a dangerous place or
1074
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:13,360
anything like that.
1075
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:18,800
It was the fact that they went into a known dangerous place, you know, um, and they, and
1076
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,520
they, they paid the ultimate price.
1077
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:22,520
Yeah.
1078
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:27,040
So during this time, I've been thinking of this whole time you're describing this, um,
1079
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,000
you know, you're gathering information and, and, and, uh, and people are telling you about
1080
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,000
these places.
1081
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:36,280
Is this before a time where you could just get on Google and look at satellite maps and
1082
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,080
like peruse around searching for rivers?
1083
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,480
Like it's sort of like, I don't know if you do, if you're like me, I spend so much of
1084
01:09:43,480 --> 01:09:48,560
my day looking at rivers and I spend a lot of time on Google.
1085
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:49,560
Yeah.
1086
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,840
Um, well, I'll tell you.
1087
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,000
It was actually quite hard finding this place.
1088
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:58,920
You know, once I knew where I was going, I tried to find this river on Google Earth and
1089
01:09:58,920 --> 01:09:59,920
stuff.
1090
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:01,520
It was quite difficult to find.
1091
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,840
And the, um, the imagery at the time was from the, from the rainy season.
1092
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:06,840
Okay.
1093
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:11,560
I couldn't really make out what I was in for.
1094
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:17,760
Um, so no, there wasn't, um, I couldn't do much preparation for it.
1095
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,680
And in fact, you know, I only once I got there, I realized just how small this river was,
1096
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:27,680
you know, so when I looked on Google, I kind of looked and I kind of saw a river and went,
1097
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:28,840
no, this can't be it.
1098
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:29,840
It must be bigger than that.
1099
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,880
I mean, but don't worry, these guys know they've, they've told me they know where it
1100
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:35,880
is.
1101
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:40,200
And it was actually one of the big surprises when I arrived was just how small this river
1102
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:41,200
was.
1103
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:42,200
Oh, yeah.
1104
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:47,720
Did you show up on, were you scouting this area on foot or did y'all come?
1105
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,600
You know, come with like, you know, packable boats.
1106
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:59,440
I mean, when you're first kind of navigating the area, it was, um, it was, it that was
1107
01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:09,640
probably one of the coolest and the hardest things that I had ever done, you know, um,
1108
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,680
you know, so, so, you know, we, we, first of all, you know, we arrived in the, in the,
1109
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:15,600
in the, in the, in the, in the capital and stuff.
1110
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,640
And, you know, that's where, you know, all of the, all of the nonsense was happening
1111
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,480
with the, with the government and so forth.
1112
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:29,280
And, you know, we flew to the other side of the country where basically geographically,
1113
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:34,040
I don't think that, I don't think that anybody then knew that the country was in flux.
1114
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:42,240
I mean, it was a completely different set of issues when we arrived, you know, in the,
1115
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:43,640
in the Eastern CA iron stuff.
1116
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:48,520
But when one of them was affected, there was, you know, the, the, the hunting concession
1117
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:55,920
or the hunting operation was, was based on a very small river called the Koshel, which
1118
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:00,280
was a tributary of the Chinko and was a tiny little chocolate brown river.
1119
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:05,040
I mean, you could, I mean, I don't know, you know, I don't know how to describe just how
1120
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,120
small this river was, but if you saw it, you'd say that's not a river.
1121
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:09,440
It's like a stream.
1122
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:10,440
Stream, yeah.
1123
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:20,200
And, and so, so there wasn't a road to the Chinko River, you know, we had to make a road.
1124
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:26,560
And, and so we, you know, they, you know, we had a Toyota Land Cruiser and there was
1125
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:32,480
a, an aluminum tracker boat that they sort of, I don't know how they came about, but
1126
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:36,760
they said that there was a guy that sort of eventually fled the country and said, look,
1127
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:40,840
I mean, I've had enough of this place and you know, here's this boat and buy it off
1128
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,720
me for a thousand bucks or so.
1129
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,840
And these boats are really hard to come by on the sea.
1130
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:45,840
Yeah.
1131
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,640
They saw the opportunity, bought the boat, got the boat into the hunting concession and
1132
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:52,560
there awaited use.
1133
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,760
And you know, so this boat went on to the top of the Land Cruiser and then of course,
1134
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,880
a small like five horse, even a motor and so forth.
1135
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:06,440
And, you know, they gave me, you know, five men, you know, to, to aid me on my journey,
1136
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:11,920
you know, one of them was a former elephant poacher from the area and, and that had turned
1137
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:12,920
an anti-poacher.
1138
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:18,560
So nobody was entirely sure if he killed more and more elephants or people in his life.
1139
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:25,400
But he had this very quiet resolve about him and everybody gave him this wide berth and
1140
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:34,800
yeah, in the Georgie or is Georgie and, and he was, yeah, that man, I think he, he must
1141
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,680
have saved my life on a few occasions that I didn't even know of, but he was sort of
1142
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:44,640
the expedition leader or was to ensure my safety on the expedition.
1143
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:51,040
And you know, with him and another guy, Alphonse, Richard, a guy called Bao and another one
1144
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:55,120
whose name I can't recall, you know, we basically ventured with his Land Cruiser boat on the
1145
01:13:55,120 --> 01:14:01,840
roof, small, even rude motor without a cowling or anything on it, bags of maize and, you
1146
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:07,240
know, you know, and machetes and an axe.
1147
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:15,280
We went with a, with a downloaded GPS map and, you know, your visual aspects, you know,
1148
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:22,000
and you basically just went and we'd machete our way through this, this veritable rainforest
1149
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,880
and savannah grassland of the Central African Republic and took us about three days to cut
1150
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:31,960
a road to where this river was.
1151
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:32,960
Yeah.
1152
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:33,960
To get to the river.
1153
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:34,960
Yeah.
1154
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:35,960
Oh, geez.
1155
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,480
At the time that you went, I mean, I guess you went during the dry season.
1156
01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:41,680
Was the water clear as had been?
1157
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:43,400
They definitely went in the dry season.
1158
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:52,480
Well, that's sort of when, so this is, you know, when I arrived in the camp, you know,
1159
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:53,480
there was a scientist there.
1160
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:57,880
There were two scientists there that had arrived there a few years prior to me.
1161
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:02,640
You know, they really, they really wanted to know more about the area because as I mentioned,
1162
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:07,080
you know, there's, there are hardly any uninhabited water courses in Africa.
1163
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:08,080
In fact, they are none.
1164
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:09,080
This is the only one.
1165
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:10,080
Oh, geez.
1166
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:11,080
It's an enigma.
1167
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:19,440
You know, these guys arrived there, a guy with the name of Thierry Abishir, a Swiss naturalist,
1168
01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:24,520
you know, was sort of going and looking for a place in Africa that was uninhabited and
1169
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:28,320
so forth, looked at a map and you know, in a map when they, when they look at your population,
1170
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,720
there are all these little black dots that indicate villages or so.
1171
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:32,720
Yeah.
1172
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:39,960
And saw this absence, this complete blank area in, in, in what, in, in what is the geographical
1173
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:40,960
center of Africa.
1174
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,080
It's the pole of inaccessibility, you know, the Jinko River.
1175
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:46,080
Yeah.
1176
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,040
And the hardest place in Africa to get to right there in the middle of this river with
1177
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:53,440
no black dots around.
1178
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:57,920
And that's what I happen to see as well when I, when I looked onto like, you know, geography
1179
01:15:57,920 --> 01:15:59,440
maps and things like that.
1180
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:03,600
So they'd arrived there and you know, they were starting to do things like sampling and
1181
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:04,720
so forth.
1182
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:09,480
And, and so somebody said to me, oh, you know, they fish and they've caught a few fish and
1183
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:13,760
they really, you know, so I immediately went to them saying, okay, so tell me about the
1184
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:18,200
Goliath Tigerfish and this was when I was in the main camp before we embarked to see the
1185
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:22,240
river and they sort of looked at me and said, what do you mean?
1186
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:23,240
Oh no.
1187
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:29,520
And I said, well, you know, the fish that I'm here to catch, the Goliath Tigerfish, that
1188
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:33,040
big, the giant, that really big tigerfish.
1189
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,640
And they said, no, we've caught some tigerfish here.
1190
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,960
I said, well, how big, how big they say, and they showed me, and they showed me, you know,
1191
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:44,400
something between 20 and 25 inches.
1192
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:47,520
And I sort of went, no, but, and they said, no, but there was also one day, you know,
1193
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,640
we hooked something and there was a big white flash and, you know, we lost it.
1194
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,840
And I said, yeah, but, but Eric told me that there's a lot of Goliath Tigerfish, you guys
1195
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:56,840
eat them.
1196
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:57,840
Yeah.
1197
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:00,720
No, he says no, they don't know about that.
1198
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:01,720
Right.
1199
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:02,720
Oh, geez.
1200
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:08,440
So I sort of went, okay, you know, okay, look, I mean, I've actually had this before, you
1201
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:11,160
know, people often don't know what I'm talking about.
1202
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:12,160
Okay.
1203
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:18,960
And then I get to this river after roping in a client of mine to go with me until these
1204
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:23,480
family found out where I was trying to take him and they vetoed his whole trip.
1205
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,800
Client then said, go ahead, I'll still pay for the trip you go.
1206
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:28,560
I know how much it means to you.
1207
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:29,560
Yeah.
1208
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:35,320
And I obviously racked up a bit of debt and got there three days to get to this river
1209
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:43,840
and I get to this river and I mean, my, my heart just sank into my boots.
1210
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:52,520
I mean, it was, I mean, this thing was the river was probably about 50 yards across and
1211
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,760
probably about three inches deep.
1212
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,760
Oh, no.
1213
01:17:55,760 --> 01:18:02,280
I mean, there was no self-respecting Goliath Tigerfish, no self-respecting Tigerfish.
1214
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:03,280
Yeah.
1215
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:08,080
I remember I was in this river and never mind the Goliath and I stood there and I just,
1216
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:13,320
you know, my, I don't know, I just dropped my head and just said, like, oh my God, I
1217
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:21,040
think I've wasted all of my money and time to a place where there's just, there's definitely
1218
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,160
no Goliath in this river.
1219
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:27,880
Just by looking at it, you know, I mean, you could, you could wait across it without getting
1220
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:32,360
your knees wet, you know, in a few seconds, you could throw a rock across it.
1221
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,240
I mean, in some places you could, you can jump almost jump across this river.
1222
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:38,240
Yeah.
1223
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:45,520
So, so that was a bit of a, you know, I thought, oh my God, what have I done?
1224
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:51,280
But, but yeah, so we, you know, I don't know, we were there.
1225
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:55,680
So, you know, I could see a little bit of movement and stuff of some fish, et cetera.
1226
01:18:55,680 --> 01:19:00,040
So I started exploring it a little bit and there was some, some common Tigerfish there
1227
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:06,600
and I caught a few of those and, and you know, we started exploring up and downstream
1228
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:10,760
of our camping area and I noticed that, you know, on the sort of the, the, where the river
1229
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:16,720
bend, you know, had bends in it, you know, from erosion because that river, you know,
1230
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:17,720
floods completely.
1231
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:18,720
Yeah.
1232
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:24,080
You know, where it had bends in the river and stuff, there were some much deeper pools
1233
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:29,600
and so that, that I then started fishing in, and you know, just kind of like, you know,
1234
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:35,320
I had six weeks, right in this place and I sort of just see what I could find.
1235
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:36,320
Yeah.
1236
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:37,320
Yeah.
1237
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:41,480
Yeah, I would think maybe that would be of benefit to you.
1238
01:19:41,480 --> 01:19:44,720
I mean, once you found out that they're there, but if you come to the dry season, the water
1239
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:51,960
is going down, it would theoretically consolidate them into at least tighter groupings and deeper
1240
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:52,960
pockets.
1241
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:53,960
Yeah.
1242
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:57,160
Well, I mean, that's just, you just got to find those spots like.
1243
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,680
That's a theory, right?
1244
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:00,680
Yes.
1245
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,920
I mean, so I mean, by then I'd actually sort of, I'd given up hope that they were alive
1246
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:10,440
there and I started, but I did start looking for the deeper holes and like those spots
1247
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:11,440
that you're talking about.
1248
01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:12,440
Yeah.
1249
01:20:12,440 --> 01:20:13,440
But they were far between.
1250
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:20,280
We'd often travel for hours or, you know, on straight, you know, a few inch deep pools
1251
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,160
where you can see the bottom.
1252
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,040
You can see everything that's in the river.
1253
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:25,040
Yeah.
1254
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,400
You know, you can see there's nothing big there.
1255
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,160
You know, you'll see schools of baitfish and of this and of that.
1256
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:36,760
I mean, significant amount of fish in the river and some really weird and cool species
1257
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:41,040
and you'd see these, you know, all of these strange fish that you'd never seen in your
1258
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,240
life before, but you don't really care at that stage.
1259
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:47,200
You know, you really, you know, you're looking for something that you can catch.
1260
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:53,760
And so, so then the one day of fishing in one of these deep pools, you know, I get a strike
1261
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,320
and the next thing, you know, it's a Nile Perch.
1262
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,360
And so the Nile Perch were known to be around there and stuff.
1263
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,560
And I mean, it was a very big Nile Perch.
1264
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,320
And I mean, it came right out the water right in front of me.
1265
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,680
There was no mistaking it.
1266
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:11,000
And and it ended up losing the fish.
1267
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:14,240
You know, there's a significant amount of oysters in this river.
1268
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:15,240
You can't believe it.
1269
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:20,000
But in the middle of Africa, there's like these boulders and stuff are often covered
1270
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:24,840
ridden with oysters and they'll cut your inflatable boats and cut your boots and everything to
1271
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,280
shreds and they do the same with your leaders.
1272
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:34,120
So this big Nile Perch completely unexpected that I like that I hooked it came out of the
1273
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:38,640
water and stuff went around one of these boulders and just seven fly line made my fly line look
1274
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:42,320
like a peeled banana as it came back around and stuff.
1275
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:46,600
And I had to like put a new fly line and stuff and kept trying.
1276
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:51,240
So, you know, by now, I was so desperate to catch something big or anything, you know,
1277
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,600
the Nile Perch was sort of, you know, second prize.
1278
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,440
But by now, I mean, it's a wonderful fish to catch.
1279
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:05,880
And so, you know, I sort of went about fishing for them and I'd landed a few good ones, you
1280
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:08,440
know, the 20, 30 pounders and stuff.
1281
01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:11,880
The really big ones got away from me.
1282
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,160
And, you know, it came up to a point where I was now fishing.
1283
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:19,840
I'd forsaken the whole Kali thing.
1284
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,320
I was now fishing with things like 50 and 60 pound straight flura.
1285
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:25,320
Yeah.
1286
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:30,960
The flop and these big flies, because you know, Nile Perch like really big flies.
1287
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:34,080
You know, occasionally I'd see a smaller tiger trying to attack this big fly.
1288
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:37,000
But I mean, they could do nothing to it, right?
1289
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:38,000
Right.
1290
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:43,000
And I got to this one place and, you know, sort of said, okay, I'll try here for some
1291
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,920
Nile Perch and I made a cast in and, you know, started stripping the fly back.
1292
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:53,360
And the next thing I just felt this, you know, this definite touch or hit of the fly.
1293
01:22:53,360 --> 01:23:01,000
But almost like, you know, just this very quick take and off.
1294
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,160
And then on my next strip, you could just feel there's nothing left.
1295
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:05,160
There's nothing there.
1296
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:06,680
I just immediately bit you off.
1297
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,880
I'm just big fly and there's a lot of resistance in the water and stuff.
1298
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:14,520
So you have to work it back and on this one hit like that, on my next strip, there was
1299
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:16,720
just nothing on the end of the line.
1300
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:23,600
And I keep stripping back and I lift and this 60 pound leader is just clean cut off.
1301
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:25,360
All fly is gone.
1302
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,040
All 12 inch fly is gone.
1303
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:33,480
And the 60 pound leader has been been cut clean and I go.
1304
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:37,960
And I don't know, you know, that there are some times that you, you know, something's
1305
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:43,920
happened, but you don't want to, you don't want to get, I don't know, you don't want
1306
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:44,920
to admit it.
1307
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:45,920
Right.
1308
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:46,920
Yeah.
1309
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:48,480
Don't want to be disappointed or something.
1310
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:54,160
But I sort of, it had to be, you know, you sit there and I just got like, what was that?
1311
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:56,600
It had to be, it had to be something, right?
1312
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:01,200
And that's the first time that I sort of went, there's something going on here, something
1313
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:06,400
going on in this river that, that it had to be one.
1314
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:07,400
Come on.
1315
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:08,400
Right.
1316
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:09,400
No, no, no, no, no.
1317
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,400
There's like two minds, two voices in your head.
1318
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:12,960
The one saying, it is, it is, it is.
1319
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:17,400
And the other one saying, don't, don't, don't, don't get excited about it.
1320
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,400
And, and yeah.
1321
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:26,240
So, so I sort of, you know, I mean, we kept exploring the river and then we kept pushing
1322
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,600
further and further up the river because, you know, downstream of us where it was where
1323
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:35,320
this caustral river flowed into the, into the Jinko and it kind of muddied the waters
1324
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:36,320
up and stuff.
1325
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:39,120
We really liked fishing in the clearer water.
1326
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:45,880
And so we went up and, and then a few days later in exploring a pool further upstream,
1327
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:51,200
you know, I, I noticed two small fish getting flushed from under the boat.
1328
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:52,200
You're right.
1329
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:54,960
So we'd obviously spooked them or something like that.
1330
01:24:54,960 --> 01:25:02,040
And they swam right up to this, up to this, you know, this, this, this, this shelf next
1331
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:03,040
to us.
1332
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:05,480
And they, they got to the shelf and realized they couldn't go anywhere.
1333
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:09,160
And you could see they were very agitated and nervous and things like that.
1334
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:13,680
And I'm sitting, I'm sitting quite low to the water.
1335
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:19,920
And the next thing in my peripheral vision from the corner of my eye, I look and this,
1336
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,160
this thing just arrives.
1337
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:24,160
It just appears.
1338
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:29,320
It just, it's almost like, you know, in the, in the split second between frames, this thing
1339
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:33,440
just came and stopped like that next to the boat.
1340
01:25:33,440 --> 01:25:42,320
And I looked over my shoulder and I looked and I'll tell you what, I mean, when you,
1341
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:49,720
when you look at a Goliathige fish, man, they look back at you, that fish looked at me.
1342
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:55,600
It sort of, and I looked at it with big eyes like this and it looked at me.
1343
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,520
It was kind of looking at me.
1344
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,280
The two little fish were nervous and stuff.
1345
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,400
And I just, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
1346
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:02,400
I was face to face.
1347
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:10,840
I was, I was six feet away from a free swimming Goliathige fish in clear water right next to
1348
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:11,840
in this boat.
1349
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:15,680
I don't know if, if anybody's ever seen that.
1350
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:21,360
They have, you know, and the next thing I sort of, I reach over to my rod and I'm about
1351
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:27,240
to just pick up the rod and that fish saw me move and I just, I mean, though it left
1352
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:32,800
even quicker than it, than it appeared at just, it vanished.
1353
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:33,800
Geez.
1354
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:36,640
I just couldn't believe how quickly that happened.
1355
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,240
And I looked and I was just, I can't believe this.
1356
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:40,880
I can't believe this.
1357
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:47,840
You know, and, and I made so many costs in desperation to sort of see if I could get
1358
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:51,400
something to eat in that pool and stuff.
1359
01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:56,520
And you know, and, and, and then I was reminded of just how difficult it is to actually entice
1360
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:57,520
these things.
1361
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:58,520
Yeah.
1362
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:03,400
And sort of, you know, you start losing a little bit of hope when I drifted further down in
1363
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:09,520
that pool and then the next thing my fly stopped, you know, and I could feel there's something,
1364
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:11,760
there's something on the end of this fly.
1365
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,800
And, and it sort of, it stayed in one place and stayed in one place.
1366
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:19,840
And I thought, no, no, no, this must be a Nile perch, you know, because it fought exactly
1367
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:21,480
like what a Nile perch does.
1368
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:22,480
Yeah.
1369
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:28,640
And so I look up and it was quite a long cast when I look up and about 60 feet from me,
1370
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:33,680
the silver bar flops around, just comes up to the surface and starts flopping around
1371
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:37,040
in one place and I look and I go, oh my God.
1372
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,040
Yeah.
1373
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:39,040
It took a little higher.
1374
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,880
I don't know what's going on, but this fish is sort of doesn't know what's going on.
1375
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:47,280
It's kind of, it's irritated by this thing in its mouth.
1376
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:48,280
Yeah.
1377
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,000
And I just told them, but there was Georgie and Alfonso with me on the boat.
1378
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,720
And I said, but get me there now.
1379
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,520
Get me, get the boat there.
1380
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:56,520
Right.
1381
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:57,520
Yeah.
1382
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:58,720
You get the boat there.
1383
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:01,080
I'll strip the line.
1384
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,680
And, and we approach and this fish sort of writes itself and it sort of realizes now that
1385
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,400
it took and it starts fighting.
1386
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,120
And these are the very nervous moments because you don't know if it took properly.
1387
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,120
And I'm fighting it and I'm fighting it and it's right next to the boat under us and
1388
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:22,640
stuff and the, and the next thing I see something appear under it and it just sort of flashes
1389
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,400
like this gray shape just flashes once flashes twice.
1390
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:34,440
And by the time I realized what was happening, what was happening, this enormous Goliath
1391
01:28:34,440 --> 01:28:38,840
comes and just grabs onto.
1392
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:39,840
You've got to be kidding me.
1393
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:40,840
Yeah.
1394
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:47,960
The one I hooked was probably about 20 pounds or so.
1395
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,520
Probably about a 30 inch or so fish.
1396
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:51,520
Yeah.
1397
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:58,080
This, this enormous Goliath just comes in, slams its jaws shut right on top of the back
1398
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:02,880
of this other fish right behind its torso and pectin like this.
1399
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,480
Like up to the surface right in front of me.
1400
01:29:06,480 --> 01:29:12,800
And as it slams its jaws shut over this fish, it looked at me, it sat there like this with
1401
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,680
the fish in its mouth and looked at me.
1402
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:15,680
That is horrifying.
1403
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:16,680
What are you, you know?
1404
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:21,040
I was looking at this thing going, oh my God.
1405
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:27,720
And Alphonse, the guy on the boat, he grabs the paddle and he starts whacking the water
1406
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:28,720
over.
1407
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,120
I mean, that fish is about this deep on the boat, right?
1408
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:36,240
So he starts whacking the water above this fish to try and make it release and stuff.
1409
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:38,720
And hits and hits and hits and stuff.
1410
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:47,320
And this big Goliath kind of looks and goes and tightens its grip onto this fish.
1411
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:53,720
Like deeps, like further chomps onto this fish and clicks and holds it again like that.
1412
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:57,360
Like it's fighting for the, like it's going, this is mine.
1413
01:29:57,360 --> 01:29:58,360
You know?
1414
01:29:58,360 --> 01:29:59,360
Geez.
1415
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,200
And the next time I shouted Alphonse, I go, no, no, no, like grab the bogey, grab the
1416
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:04,200
bogey.
1417
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,400
And I just try and yank this fish.
1418
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:07,400
Yeah.
1419
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:09,040
I mean, this all happened in a few seconds.
1420
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:14,760
And the next thing my fly pops out of the smaller Goliath's mouth and the big Goliath
1421
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:20,400
turns down with it and just starts, you know, fitting it down into this deep pool.
1422
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:26,920
And there's just little scales and stuff and, you know, debris still sort of suspended in
1423
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:34,280
this, in this eerie green water under me.
1424
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:40,400
And I look up and Alphonse looks and he just goes, Terrible, Terrible.
1425
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:47,320
You know, this, I'm looking, I mean, they were, these guys were scared.
1426
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:50,880
They were going, they didn't know that this, they didn't know this is what I was trying
1427
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:51,880
to do.
1428
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:52,880
Right.
1429
01:30:52,880 --> 01:31:01,400
And, and yeah, that was, that was a, that was a hair raising experience.
1430
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:07,680
I mean, you know, you, you know, I was, we were just like astounded by this thing.
1431
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:13,600
You know, now, so that was the first time I really, it was, it was confirmed there are
1432
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,720
Goliath and the chinko, right?
1433
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:22,000
Gosh, what a, I mean, I don't know if I'd be excited or heartbroken.
1434
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:26,680
I'm probably more excited, but you know, if you weren't already haunted by him in your
1435
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:32,400
dreams beforehand, you know, heaven forbid you left that experience without landing one.
1436
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,120
You have that on your conscience and that etched into your memories.
1437
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:39,760
So I would have, did you immediately set up camp on that spot?
1438
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:49,920
Like an interesting thing that happened actually the day before that we were in camp and for
1439
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:59,360
some reason, you know, there was a weird agitated a hive of bees or so in the area and I'm allergic
1440
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:06,840
to bees and these, you know, the first thing that happened was a bee flew straight into
1441
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:12,120
the back of my neck where my hair was and, and started going crazy and, and, and stuff
1442
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,320
and I tried to get it out, get it out.
1443
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:21,760
And then once I got it out, I, I smelt, there was this distinctive smell and I realized that
1444
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:29,440
this beer just left a pheromone on me and the next thing these bees just came in at.
1445
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:34,400
And I mean, I, I ran down the bank and I dove into the water and stuff.
1446
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:41,000
And I mean, you know, and, and like went underwater and you got my head up and yelled at the guys
1447
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:45,280
like mosquito net mosquito net, you know, to try and, you know, I've got to get in under
1448
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:48,520
a mosquito net or something and these bees are hovering around me, et cetera.
1449
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:55,080
And so the next thing I get rid of them, but now my whole body's starting to go into anaphylactic
1450
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:56,080
shock, right?
1451
01:32:56,080 --> 01:33:03,960
And I haven't got an epipen and I am starting to, you know, get a heavy breathing and my
1452
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:09,560
whole body is going red with wealth and everything of the sorts and I get it under my mosquito
1453
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:15,240
net and I, and I think that this really might be it, you know, is this, this, this one.
1454
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:18,400
This might be it, but, but I just, you know, I said to myself, listen, are you going to
1455
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:23,840
have to, you don't have to get a grip here because you, you know, you know, some things,
1456
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:25,840
you know, you've got to do something.
1457
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:29,880
And so I took whatever anti-easter means I had and I chewed them so to try and make them
1458
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:34,440
fine and get them into my digestive system quicker, drank some of the water, lay on my
1459
01:33:34,440 --> 01:33:36,920
back and focused on my breathing.
1460
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:38,320
Wow.
1461
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,640
And, and I got through it.
1462
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:46,600
And I nearly, I, you know, like, I was just thinking about my poor mother who is going
1463
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:52,520
to be told that your son is dead, you know, was attacked by a swarm of bees.
1464
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:57,400
And it broke me at that moment really broke me.
1465
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,080
I just said, like, you know what, I've had enough of this place.
1466
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:02,200
I really, I've had enough.
1467
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:03,200
I'm leaving.
1468
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:06,240
And I told Georgie and everybody, I said, like, pack up the camp.
1469
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:07,240
We're out of here.
1470
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:08,240
Yeah.
1471
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,600
And it was funny, you know, I was sitting there watching them.
1472
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:16,760
Pack up the camp and I, and I looked and I said, you know what?
1473
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:21,040
No, come on, man, just like, just get a grip.
1474
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:22,040
Okay.
1475
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,520
And I stopped them and I said, guys, just stop packing up the camp.
1476
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,000
I can hear.
1477
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:27,000
Just do it.
1478
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:28,000
Don't be scared.
1479
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:29,000
You've got to do this.
1480
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,000
I don't know what it was.
1481
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:35,400
I just said to myself, I have to complete this mission.
1482
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:39,000
I can't leave like, you know, from a few bee steps.
1483
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:40,000
Yeah.
1484
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:44,240
And the next day was the day that I found the Goliath, right?
1485
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:47,760
And so that was amazing.
1486
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:55,960
And you know, another thing happened to me that night was I went to sleep and I sort
1487
01:34:55,960 --> 01:35:00,840
of, I lay in my, in this camp cot and it was such an interesting setup.
1488
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:05,240
You know, they would basically just have a mosquito net over a camp cot right at the
1489
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:10,400
end, like a tarpaulin, you know, with makeshift roof over your, over you and stuff.
1490
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,280
You're basically exposed to the jungle.
1491
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,440
And I lay there and I couldn't sleep.
1492
01:35:15,440 --> 01:35:24,040
I couldn't sleep because I knew that the next day that I was going to go and catch this
1493
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:25,400
Goliath, I knew.
1494
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:27,720
I just knew it.
1495
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:29,840
And the funniest thing happened.
1496
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:35,400
I lay in my camp cot that night and I was looking up at where the stars break through
1497
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,280
the jungle canopy and stuff.
1498
01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:40,520
And I started thinking of my whole life.
1499
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:44,920
I started thinking of when I was a kid of, you know, how my father taught me how to fish
1500
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,360
of school of everything.
1501
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:54,680
And in vivid detail, my whole life played out in front of me as I couldn't sleep.
1502
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,520
And it was almost like this was the most momentous thing.
1503
01:35:57,520 --> 01:35:59,000
This was, this was my calling.
1504
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:06,440
This was the, the thing that I was made for was going to happen the next day.
1505
01:36:06,440 --> 01:36:13,440
And it was when my whole life played out in front of me in my bed that I, from beginning
1506
01:36:13,440 --> 01:36:16,360
to where I was at that point in time.
1507
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:18,360
And it was remarkable.
1508
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:22,720
Like the emotional attachment, the sort of spiritual attachment and everything that I
1509
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,720
have to this fish is really is sometimes unbearable.
1510
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,240
Yeah, that is incredible.
1511
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:35,240
It's a, I don't know how to explain it.
1512
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:40,320
And anyway, on the next day we went and we went to that same pool and funny enough, as
1513
01:36:40,320 --> 01:36:44,720
we arrived at that pool, I noticed this eeriness about that pool.
1514
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:49,840
There were colibus monkeys, you know, jumping through the treetops when we arrived there,
1515
01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:53,880
you know, making these fairly harrowing sounds and things like that.
1516
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,800
And on the bank of this pool, and it's a tiny pool.
1517
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:03,560
I mean, the pool is probably, I don't know, the size of the average, you know, yard in
1518
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,560
the US or something.
1519
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:06,560
Yeah.
1520
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:12,720
And I noticed something in the shadows and we pushed the boat over there to go and see
1521
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:13,720
what it was.
1522
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:20,080
And it was this severed half of this Goliath tigerfish that was being eaten by these eel-like,
1523
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:25,200
you know, they look a bit like snakehead fish, you know, and that was, you know, they were
1524
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:26,200
all hovering around it.
1525
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:31,160
So this bigger Goliath that severed it and, you know, the rest of the carcass was carried
1526
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:36,080
into the shallows and was being devoured by these other fish and I, and I've got a photograph
1527
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,360
of it and I've got a photograph of my hand next to it.
1528
01:37:38,360 --> 01:37:39,880
Like first, a photograph of it.
1529
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:40,880
Yeah.
1530
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:43,880
And then you see a little fish and then a photograph of my hand next to it and you realize how
1531
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:49,440
big this fish is and you realize how big this fish must have been that ate it.
1532
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:54,200
And, you know, I went about night and I went about this pool and I fished and I worked
1533
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:55,200
the pool, et cetera.
1534
01:37:55,200 --> 01:38:01,680
And the next thing there was, I get this strike from this fish.
1535
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:07,920
And it was, it was amazing, you know, just how, but I knew it.
1536
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:09,520
I sort of, I just knew it.
1537
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:17,000
I knew it would happen and I knew this fish would be caught and and I landed it on the
1538
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:24,440
sandbar and I remember just seeing this magnificent and it was most likely the fish that had devoured
1539
01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:25,800
that previous fish because it was huge.
1540
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:33,520
It was a very big fish and and at that point in time, the quiet, you know, quiet Georgie
1541
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:38,040
looked up at me and he looked at me and he said to me and he gave me the only compliment
1542
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:42,400
he had given me, you know, all six weeks that we were there and he said, no, actually he
1543
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,480
gave me two and I'll tell you about the other one later.
1544
01:38:44,480 --> 01:38:47,440
He said to me, it's a good fish.
1545
01:38:47,440 --> 01:38:50,560
He said to me, you are a good fish.
1546
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:55,280
And yeah, that was, yeah, it was an amazing experience.
1547
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:56,280
Yeah.
1548
01:38:56,280 --> 01:39:02,360
Well, it's good to feel like you've earned that accolade, but yeah, man, it's funny.
1549
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:07,360
As you're mentioning this, I think of other times where I've caught some of my most memorable
1550
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:14,080
catches in my life, none quite to the, I don't know, the level of a Goliath tiger fish,
1551
01:39:14,080 --> 01:39:19,280
but still fish that have deep meaning to me and almost invariably all of them came just
1552
01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:25,920
on the other side of some proverbial fork in the road that I'd hit where there was a,
1553
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:29,720
there was a very strong option to be like, you know, fuck this.
1554
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:31,520
Let's, let's call it a day.
1555
01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:35,840
This not happen where there was an opportunity to turn back and for whatever reason felt
1556
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,000
compelled to push through.
1557
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:41,960
I would say almost every time that that's happened strongly enough, there was always
1558
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:47,000
some great fish on the other side of that enough so that now it's a good thing because
1559
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:52,680
now I feel like in my own fishing, when I run into those scenarios, I start getting
1560
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:59,080
real nervous because it's like, you remember, I've, I've, I've been in this crux position
1561
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:03,840
before and I remember how it turned out and someone's like, now I need to be on guard
1562
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:09,280
cause something's going to happen, but it's a, yeah, that's, it's always so much more
1563
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:14,560
rewarding when it kind of comes on this opportunity you had to give up or quit or something got
1564
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:19,920
thrown in your path that probably would have sent many another angler packing.
1565
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:22,920
Um, that's, that's wild.
1566
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:26,280
I, cause I was, you know, I was always, I was kind of wondering what your reaction
1567
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,280
would be.
1568
01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:31,800
I've had these moments where I caught the fish of a lifetime and then some of them caused
1569
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,720
me to scream and shriek.
1570
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:40,280
Just caused me to just be almost paralyzed with silence and the inability to kind of
1571
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,520
cope with what had the magnitude of what had happened.
1572
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:46,920
So I was wondering what that fish did to you on that.
1573
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:53,760
Yeah, it was, it was, it really, it did change everything, but I'll tell you what else it
1574
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:54,760
did.
1575
01:40:54,760 --> 01:41:02,720
Um, it really, it changed my life to the extent where, um, you know, as far as, as long as
1576
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:07,440
I could remember, there were only two things that I, that I ever wanted to do.
1577
01:41:07,440 --> 01:41:15,760
Um, I wanted to encounter a big tiger shark on the flats of Cosmolida and the Seychelles,
1578
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:21,800
which I did, which I'm not a religious man, but I had some conversations with a big man
1579
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:22,800
that day.
1580
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:28,200
And, um, and the other thing was to catch a guy, tiger fish on fly.
1581
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:35,320
And, and when I'd done it, when I arrived home, everything changed for me in the sense
1582
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:39,480
that I had no idea what I was going to do.
1583
01:41:39,480 --> 01:41:43,720
I had no idea what I was going to do with the rest of my life because the only thing
1584
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,520
I had ever wanted to do, I had done.
1585
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:50,520
And it was, it was quite strange.
1586
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:56,480
You know, I actually, I became estranged from, from, from, from my normal life to the extent
1587
01:41:56,480 --> 01:42:00,560
where I actually, I quit the fly fishing business.
1588
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:07,040
Um, I decided to take up a career in something else and, and left the fly fishing business
1589
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:08,560
for three years.
1590
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:19,600
Um, you know, like just almost unable to, to sort of consider what, what else to do.
1591
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:22,480
Um, but I came back.
1592
01:42:22,480 --> 01:42:24,480
Right.
1593
01:42:24,480 --> 01:42:25,480
Yeah.
1594
01:42:25,480 --> 01:42:26,480
Yeah.
1595
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:30,560
Uh, yeah, I guess that's interesting if, if you're whole, I mean, if everything had revolved
1596
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:34,240
around this one fish and this one mission, and once you've completed that, there's kind
1597
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:39,360
of like now there's this massive void of all the time and energy and thoughts that you
1598
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:43,240
had that were occupied by this fish or open territory.
1599
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:48,720
Uh, that's got to be a weird feeling on how to kind of repopulate that.
1600
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:55,440
I was actually, I was a, I was sort of, um, yeah, I'd, I'd lost, I'd lost some things
1601
01:42:55,440 --> 01:42:59,960
and sort of like, I'd lost like a reason for being a reason for doing kind of thing.
1602
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:06,960
It took me a long time to, to figure out, you know, that, that I, you know, that I
1603
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:08,800
actually needed to go back.
1604
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:13,880
Um, because I was quite happy, you know, I mean, for the rest of that trip, I actually
1605
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:18,720
caught a few more fish, but I also realized that there were, there were enough glaring
1606
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:23,760
eyes around and the fish and that that place would mean enough for people that they would
1607
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,040
ultimately try and turn it into something.
1608
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:31,640
And so I wasn't completely honest with anybody about how many fish I'd caught that for the
1609
01:43:31,640 --> 01:43:34,360
rest of that expedition of mine.
1610
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:40,000
And I came back and I wrote an article state claiming that I'd only caught the one.
1611
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:47,240
And, um, it was a few years later that a friend of mine, Ed Gawir, a person that I had met
1612
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:54,960
through guiding in Kenya, uh, you know, um, had, you know, contacted me and he said to
1613
01:43:54,960 --> 01:44:00,760
me, so tell me about this guy and tell me about where you went and so forth.
1614
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:07,560
And I sort of, you know, told him the truth about what I'd really found there and how
1615
01:44:07,560 --> 01:44:08,560
good it was.
1616
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:15,640
And he said, well, look, I mean, you know, he's got someone that wants to pay an incredible
1617
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:18,000
sum of money to go and catch this thing.
1618
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:22,840
And, uh, and you know, he wants to know if, if, if we can do it.
1619
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:27,400
And I said to him, listen, you know, if you can, if you can, if you can do it, if you
1620
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,680
can get us back in there and I mean, I'll give you all the details, et cetera.
1621
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:33,280
I said to him, I'll go do it with you.
1622
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:34,280
Yeah.
1623
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:40,800
And he, I mean, it didn't take, I mean, there's one thing about, uh, about Ed Gawir that you
1624
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:45,320
have to say is that that man can move mountains when it comes to logistics and organizing things
1625
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:46,320
in Africa.
1626
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,880
I don't think there's anybody like him.
1627
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:55,000
And, uh, within, I don't know, within a record period of time, I think everybody, everybody
1628
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:58,720
was even the people on the ground in the Jinko.
1629
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:04,400
I think everybody in the CAR, everybody around like, who's ever known anything about logistics
1630
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:12,080
in that country were flabbergasted as to how efficient and how well Ed went about to plan
1631
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:19,000
our return, you know, um, from, from getting boats with proper motors and everything and
1632
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:25,800
getting containers shipped from Mombasa around Africa and to Duwala, from Duwala into Bangi,
1633
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:33,160
from Bangi with a UN convoy through 17 rebel posts to the doorstep of the Jinko, et cetera.
1634
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:34,160
Josh.
1635
01:45:34,160 --> 01:45:35,160
All arrived.
1636
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:41,320
And I mean, it was, it was a remarkable, remarkable feat by him.
1637
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:49,200
And, uh, you know, so, so in 2019 we, we returned and we returned, you know, properly geared,
1638
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:52,120
you know, like I said, with all of the right equipment and so forth.
1639
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:56,720
And we, we went with this naturalist to Thierry E. Abbashir and we went with another well
1640
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:03,080
known explorer, national geographic explorer, a guy by the name of Mike Fay, um, who's traversed
1641
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:08,400
the Gabonese jungle barefoot with pygmies and things like that.
1642
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:11,300
Quite an amazing, quite an amazing man.
1643
01:46:11,300 --> 01:46:15,720
And, um, you know, the four of us, including somebody from the department of forestry and
1644
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:22,680
environment from, from, from the CAR, you know, we embarked on this, on this, on this
1645
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:28,440
massive transect of the, of the Jinko River and of the Volvedo River, which is another
1646
01:46:28,440 --> 01:46:32,120
river that, that has its confluence in there.
1647
01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:37,280
And you know, we, we traversed in another six or seven week expedition, we traversed
1648
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,760
about 200 miles of river.
1649
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:40,760
Wow.
1650
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:45,280
And, um, and what we found was just breathtaking.
1651
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:52,680
I mean, we, we did the sort of the Jinko finally opened up to us and the potential of it.
1652
01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:56,840
But a very interesting thing happened, you know, when we, you know, when we embarked
1653
01:46:56,840 --> 01:47:01,920
on this, on this trip, you know, and we, we started, you know, fishing down and, and you
1654
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:07,600
could see how the people that had fished for tiger fish, you know, before, you know, sort
1655
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:11,000
of went about immediately fishing like this and fishing like that, et cetera.
1656
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:15,800
And I don't know what happened, but I was on the boat and I was sort of in places, you
1657
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:17,240
know, rowing the boat and stuff.
1658
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:22,400
And I was sort of guiding them, you know, um, to try and have them also catch a goliath.
1659
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:23,400
Yeah.
1660
01:47:23,400 --> 01:47:27,640
And, you know, I could always say, like all of these places that you would look for this
1661
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:30,920
fish, if you didn't know what to look for, you know, there were all these places and
1662
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:34,560
they all fished there and then they would fish here and then they would fish there.
1663
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:40,040
And I just, I didn't touch a rod and we just went down the river day by day for about,
1664
01:47:40,040 --> 01:47:44,800
I think it was about four days into the first expedition, five days into the first expedition
1665
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:47,440
or our return expedition.
1666
01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:58,280
And the one day we get to this pool and I look and I say, here, this is, this is where
1667
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:00,000
we have to fish.
1668
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:06,360
And they sort of look at me and I remember looking at Mike saying, okay, Mike, Mike,
1669
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:07,360
because he was on the other boat.
1670
01:48:07,360 --> 01:48:11,200
I said, here, try this pool, try this pool.
1671
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:14,520
And for some reason, I don't know what happened, but Mike started, you know, messing around
1672
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:16,960
with flies and retieing stuff, et cetera.
1673
01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:21,360
And, you know, it's standing there and he says, well, you get, you do it.
1674
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:23,960
And I said, okay, right.
1675
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:31,800
And I pick up my rod and three casts later, and I see it come up behind my fly, eats my
1676
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:33,720
fly.
1677
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:38,560
And I catch and land the first fish of our expedition.
1678
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:43,200
And it was a beautiful fish, big fish, so 40 something inch fish, probably about 30
1679
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:46,760
something pounds or whatever.
1680
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:53,920
And it was, it was, and so I released the fish and I look up and I go, man.
1681
01:48:53,920 --> 01:49:01,280
This place, what is it about this place that I've got this, I recognize it.
1682
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:02,280
Yeah.
1683
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:05,280
And I go and it says, yeah, also, I think I recognize it.
1684
01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:12,200
He says, and we both sort of realized at the same time, my God, it's, it's the pool where
1685
01:49:12,200 --> 01:49:14,320
I caught the first one in the chinko.
1686
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:16,600
What are the odds of that?
1687
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:17,600
What are the odds?
1688
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:18,600
Right?
1689
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:19,600
What are the odds?
1690
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,560
I mean, the serendipity of it.
1691
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:31,760
I mean, it becomes, it actually becomes so, you know, after a while you just wonder, you
1692
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:33,480
know, you have to wonder.
1693
01:49:33,480 --> 01:49:34,480
Yeah.
1694
01:49:34,480 --> 01:49:35,640
You have to wonder about these things.
1695
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:36,640
Yeah.
1696
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:41,080
And I had no idea that it was that pool, but when I saw it, I just sort of knew that, like
1697
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:42,640
I had to make a cast there anyway.
1698
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:43,640
Yeah.
1699
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:45,920
It turned out it was exactly the same pool.
1700
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:50,760
And we took a photograph on exactly the same sandbar as where I had my first one photographed.
1701
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:51,760
Yeah.
1702
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:58,640
I think that like the magic of a place like that, how quickly did your focus then turn
1703
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:06,360
to we've got something that there's nothing like this else on planet Earth.
1704
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:12,160
Now we need to shift our focus and attention towards potentially protecting it.
1705
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:18,000
Was there efforts put in place to like kind of ensure conservation?
1706
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:20,280
I mean, when did it start to turn into that?
1707
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:21,280
Yeah.
1708
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:29,800
But by this time, you know, when I left in 2014 upon discovering this place in 2015,
1709
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:39,440
African parks, a world leader and basically the spearhead in African conservation had
1710
01:50:39,440 --> 01:50:45,080
sort of taken over the concession of the Chinko.
1711
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:51,040
And a little bit of background of African parks is that these guys are, I mean, the
1712
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:52,760
role, you can't even call them a role model.
1713
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:56,640
I don't know if there's anybody, if there's any sort of conservation agency that could
1714
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,760
live up to what African parks are doing.
1715
01:50:59,760 --> 01:51:05,200
Basically, I mean, African parks are in the business of going and finding these national
1716
01:51:05,200 --> 01:51:09,640
parks around the world that are on the brink of collapse that can't be supported by its
1717
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:11,640
own government or anything like that anymore.
1718
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:17,600
And they take over the concession and they would go from either from putting in anti-poaching
1719
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:22,680
forces or something of the sorts and getting large amounts of donations and things.
1720
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:32,160
And really, they reestablish and they stabilize these national parks and save them from collapse.
1721
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:38,760
And I think they've got nearly 30 parks around Africa under their control now.
1722
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:44,280
And then I specialize in these parks like the Serengeti and all of these parks that we all
1723
01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:51,280
know about, where Simba and Dumbo float around and you can sort of graphics and forest with
1724
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:56,480
wonderful, comfortable dwellings and no more mosquitoes and we've got like, I mean, they
1725
01:51:56,480 --> 01:52:04,200
go into the worst of the worst places to find these unknown.
1726
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:07,080
I mean, you just didn't, you didn't even know.
1727
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,360
And some of the animals in these places, you didn't even know these animals existed.
1728
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:15,440
You didn't even know these places and these expanses existed and they go find them and
1729
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:21,280
they save them and they've got this giant operating budget and so forth.
1730
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:24,280
And I mean, they just take no nonsense.
1731
01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:25,280
They really don't.
1732
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:32,520
I mean, there's, you know, I think that in the world of NGOs and of these charities
1733
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:39,120
and stuff, you know, there's so little of the intended funds that really go towards the
1734
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:43,760
actual cause that the donations were made towards.
1735
01:52:43,760 --> 01:52:47,880
You know, I think that lots of people take this whole thing called a non-profit organization
1736
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:53,120
literally as well in order not to show a profit, we'll just pay ourselves a massive salary.
1737
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:54,960
You know, and it's sad.
1738
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:57,800
It really is sad and you see so much of it around the world.
1739
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,520
But you know, I think that African parks are exactly the opposite.
1740
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:05,800
They are, as I said, they are the spearhead in Africa.
1741
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:07,680
They're saving Africa.
1742
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:08,680
They really are.
1743
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:09,680
That's awesome.
1744
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:10,680
Yeah.
1745
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:11,680
They don't take nonsense from anybody.
1746
01:53:11,680 --> 01:53:16,720
And I mean, they've, you know, they also do things by the book.
1747
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:24,520
And you know, they fortunately took control of the Chinko and they have gone from strength
1748
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:25,520
to strength.
1749
01:53:25,520 --> 01:53:29,760
I mean, they took the Chinko and the Chinko was, you know, the area of the Chinko is a
1750
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:30,760
giant area.
1751
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:35,160
But I mean, when it was under the protection of the hunting concession, it was probably
1752
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:41,400
about 6,000 or so square miles of protect, no less 3,000 square miles of particular area.
1753
01:53:41,400 --> 01:53:50,520
It's now one of the largest protected areas in Africa at, I think at around 36,000 square
1754
01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:51,520
miles.
1755
01:53:51,520 --> 01:54:00,200
It's the size of France, you know, it's a completely uninhabited intact area.
1756
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:07,680
The size of France in this epicenter in the middle of Africa, the pole of inaccessibility,
1757
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:11,240
and these guys are in there and they're saving it and they're helping.
1758
01:54:11,240 --> 01:54:12,720
I mean, that's awesome.
1759
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:13,720
Right.
1760
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:20,800
It's, you just, you, the effort, the, the sort of the dedication and stuff it takes to
1761
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:21,800
do that.
1762
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,240
I mean, I mean, we are mere mortal men.
1763
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:26,640
You won't understand what it takes.
1764
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:31,680
But anyway, so we were very fortunate in the sense that African parks are taken over there,
1765
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:37,040
but it actually also brought with it its own challenges, you know, they wanted to know,
1766
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:42,200
well, because we now sort of discovered that we can go there, we can actually offer fly
1767
01:54:42,200 --> 01:54:45,640
fishing trips for Goliath Tiger fish.
1768
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:50,320
And so forth, and I think African parks, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you
1769
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:52,280
guys, what are your intentions here?
1770
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:53,680
What do you want to come and do?
1771
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:54,880
What is this going to be, etc.
1772
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:59,360
You know, we're busy doing, you know, important research.
1773
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:02,560
We've recently discovered chimpanzees here, etc.
1774
01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:07,520
You know, and, and a new species of fish and so forth and so forth.
1775
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:11,640
I mean, what do you guys want to come and just come and what come and fish here?
1776
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:17,560
You know, so it took a, it took a lot of motivation and it took a lot of dedication and it, it
1777
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:28,160
took a huge commitment from us to, to sort of, to shift the way that we look at things.
1778
01:55:28,160 --> 01:55:37,040
And you know, when it comes to fishing and so forth, you know, we have to admit that,
1779
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:41,920
you know, I think fishing is quite a selfish pursuit, right?
1780
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:46,560
I mean, we basically go out there and whether you're catching and releasing a fish or not,
1781
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,760
I mean, you're putting a poor animal through its bases for your enjoyment.
1782
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:51,760
Yeah.
1783
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:58,840
I mean, it, it doesn't really sort of, you know, go along with, with, you know, like
1784
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:02,080
a whole the ethos of, for instance, the National Park and so forth.
1785
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:07,280
So, you know, we really had to rethink our situation, you know, how we approach this
1786
01:56:07,280 --> 01:56:12,280
fishing thing and how we, yeah, how do we just approach things in general and how we
1787
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:15,200
can make a meaningful difference.
1788
01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:23,000
And so it's, you know, we sort of manage, but, but really, you know, when you now look
1789
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:29,560
at an expedition into the Jinko, it's no longer just a fishing expedition.
1790
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:34,520
I mean, it is, it is like the last of the great adventures.
1791
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:40,120
When you, you go in there and you are able to see something that you never would have
1792
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:46,000
seen in life, whether it be species of animals, whether it be fauna and flora, whether it
1793
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:48,800
be the protected area and so forth.
1794
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:54,200
I mean, whether it could be even the human effort of, of, of, of sort of protecting this
1795
01:56:54,200 --> 01:56:55,200
place.
1796
01:56:55,200 --> 01:57:01,360
And so you really, you realize that, that your, your ambition of coming and catching a
1797
01:57:01,360 --> 01:57:09,360
fish is, is, is so small in comparison to what really is happening and going on there.
1798
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:15,800
So, so, so yeah, it's a, you know, we've got a, we've got a great relationship with them
1799
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:16,800
now.
1800
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:22,280
And I think that, you know, all of the people that I've subsequently taken back and, you
1801
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:30,520
know, we recently did another expedition this year in their two week expedition stuff.
1802
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:35,840
That was a very, hugely successful one, but, you know, most of those clients and stuff that
1803
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:41,680
we take in there become avid supporters of African parks, they, they end up making sizable
1804
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:44,240
donations.
1805
01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:50,400
And so, so it really is sort of, you know, the fishing trip is almost playing second
1806
01:57:50,400 --> 01:57:57,800
to raising an awareness and to showing how, you know, we could really, we can make a difference
1807
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,960
as it's in the stuff.
1808
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:08,480
And it really is, it's a, it's a, it's a difficult thing to discuss with people, you know, I
1809
01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:11,480
mean, you'll, you'll, you know, I get, I get lots of inquiries.
1810
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:13,040
I probably get, oh, I'm sure.
1811
01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:14,040
Yeah.
1812
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:18,360
The website, I mean, I probably get about, I don't know, you know, six or seven people
1813
01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:23,600
asking me a week, you know, you know, can we go and what's this, say, trying to say,
1814
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:32,480
you know, and you, you, you soon realize just how far this is advanced beyond just the fishing
1815
01:58:32,480 --> 01:58:33,480
trip.
1816
01:58:33,480 --> 01:58:34,480
Yeah.
1817
01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:42,640
And, and, you know, like you need, yeah, there are a few things I think that some people
1818
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:46,800
find very difficult to understand when I explain it to them and explain to them what it's going
1819
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:52,360
to take for us to actually go back in there and to go and successfully apply to basically
1820
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:54,960
do another expedition back into the Jinka.
1821
01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:55,960
Yeah.
1822
01:58:55,960 --> 01:59:02,320
Well, I guess if there's layers of challenge and logistically just for people to get in
1823
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:09,840
there or I imagine some of those challenges at the very least probably filter out.
1824
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:14,840
I don't want to say this the wrong way, but ensure that the people with the right sort
1825
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:20,600
of ambition are the only ones left when you kind of, you know, get to the point that they're
1826
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:22,720
actually showing up.
1827
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:24,440
All right.
1828
01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:28,880
If it's that hard to get in there, at least it ensures that the caliber of person that's
1829
01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:34,800
coming in there is a good, you know, good character or not coming there to exploit things or not
1830
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:36,960
coming there to be disruptive.
1831
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:47,600
So, you know, you know, even if, even if, you know, I think I've got to be careful in,
1832
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:53,600
in confirming something like that, because it might sound like we're, you know, you know,
1833
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:55,840
we don't think that we're better than anyone.
1834
01:59:55,840 --> 01:59:56,840
Yeah.
1835
01:59:56,840 --> 02:00:01,000
We don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with what other people are doing and
1836
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:06,000
their pursuit to go and catch fish and maybe feed their fish to the locals after catching
1837
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:07,000
them and so forth.
1838
02:00:07,000 --> 02:00:17,080
But I mean, it's, yeah, there's definitely a sort of a, you have to undergo a significant
1839
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:24,360
mindset change to, to understand what it is that you're doing.
1840
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:27,200
It's no longer about the Goliath.
1841
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:31,920
You know, if, if you're a person that just wanted to, to catch a Goliath and, you know,
1842
02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:38,480
then go on to the next trip and catch whatever else and stuff, it's not going to happen.
1843
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:39,480
You know what I mean?
1844
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:43,480
It's not like we're not going to allow you to come or anything like that.
1845
02:00:43,480 --> 02:00:49,000
It's just that once you, once you sort of realize what we're doing there and once you've
1846
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:53,400
been there, it changes, it changes your perspective on things and so forth.
1847
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:59,320
And look, also it's, the price tag is pretty scary.
1848
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:04,760
I mean, it's, I would, I would venture to say that it's the most expensive fishing
1849
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:08,480
trip in the world at the moment.
1850
02:01:08,480 --> 02:01:13,320
There's, it's scary, you know, but.
1851
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:17,720
You know, a significant portion of that goes towards, towards conservation.
1852
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:24,120
You know, you've got to understand that we are the only people in there running, you
1853
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:31,440
know, an eco tour that, that, you know, we do one and if lucky two expeditions a year,
1854
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:35,000
only for four rods, only for four people.
1855
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:41,360
And so, so it is, it is unique in every sense of the word.
1856
02:01:41,360 --> 02:01:46,240
And, and, and I think that, you know, the long and short of it is that very few people
1857
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:51,920
will ever actually see this place and will actually ever get to experience, you know,
1858
02:01:51,920 --> 02:01:57,200
catching a Goliath Tiger fish there on fly or so.
1859
02:01:57,200 --> 02:02:04,720
But every single one of those people will, you know, will, will have significant change
1860
02:02:04,720 --> 02:02:08,560
in their mindset and in the way that they look at things.
1861
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:09,560
Yeah.
1862
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:10,560
Yeah.
1863
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:12,560
That's, that's, that's awesome.
1864
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:13,560
Yeah.
1865
02:02:13,560 --> 02:02:17,400
I saw some quote that kind of, I actually wrote it down and like made me chuckle.
1866
02:02:17,400 --> 02:02:19,040
I guess it was directly quoting you.
1867
02:02:19,040 --> 02:02:22,400
I don't remember what article, I should have cited the article where I read this because
1868
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:26,960
I think it was someone else's words, but they quoted you as saying, I've just realized that
1869
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:30,680
I know more about fly fishing for Goliath than anyone on the planet.
1870
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:32,840
The trouble is I know almost nothing.
1871
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:38,240
I thought, what an interesting way to like look at things and an interesting position
1872
02:02:38,240 --> 02:02:40,280
to be in as an angler.
1873
02:02:40,280 --> 02:02:45,320
Like as we mentioned early in the conversation where I said, there's tens of millions of
1874
02:02:45,320 --> 02:02:46,920
fishermen on earth.
1875
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:48,480
Who's ever been in that position?
1876
02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:49,480
It's crazy.
1877
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:56,000
But when I look at, now we're talking about Goliath expeditions and I think, you know,
1878
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:59,760
obviously I'll put the, the link of the website and all that stuff up in the show notes.
1879
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:04,840
But when I was kind of perusing the website, you know, I saw images of other species of
1880
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:05,840
fish too.
1881
02:03:05,840 --> 02:03:12,840
Just to, you know, maybe, maybe segue out of the Goliath tiger fish, you know, with
1882
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:14,080
what time we have left.
1883
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:20,880
I mean, I could talk all day about these Goliaths, but I saw on the site, a species of catfish
1884
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:26,480
that I've seen people try to catch, but never find big ones.
1885
02:03:26,480 --> 02:03:28,360
I think they're called a combo catfish.
1886
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:31,400
I mean, can you believe this fish?
1887
02:03:31,400 --> 02:03:34,560
I never even, I never knew it existed.
1888
02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:38,280
Same river or yeah, in the Ginkgo River.
1889
02:03:38,280 --> 02:03:40,560
This thing, oh my gosh.
1890
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:45,320
There are basically four giant species of fish in Africa, right?
1891
02:03:45,320 --> 02:03:46,320
Yeah.
1892
02:03:46,320 --> 02:03:51,200
Two of them scaled the Nile perch and the Goliath tiger fish.
1893
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:55,920
Then there are two other species that grow to an excess of 200 pounds, which is the
1894
02:03:55,920 --> 02:03:59,440
voodoo or the giant voodoo, the one from the Congo.
1895
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:06,960
And then this thing called the Kamba and I mean, it, like, it looks, you know, I've
1896
02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:10,960
caught Pirarara, which is the red tailed catfish, right?
1897
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:12,840
Out of the Amazon.
1898
02:04:12,840 --> 02:04:15,680
And so the Kamba looks like this thing, right?
1899
02:04:15,680 --> 02:04:18,360
It's got the same armor plated head.
1900
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:23,920
It's got the same, you know, very robust body and stuff, not the same color.
1901
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:27,160
It's got like the same color as a Piraiiba, right?
1902
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:33,520
And it, but it's got this completely the antithesis of a catfish shape from Africa.
1903
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:36,640
It's got like an Amazonian catfish.
1904
02:04:36,640 --> 02:04:41,280
And it also squeaks the way that a Pirarara, that the red tailed catfish does.
1905
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:48,280
And I think I've sort of, I think they do it with their pectoral fins.
1906
02:04:48,280 --> 02:04:49,280
I do too.
1907
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:50,280
Yeah.
1908
02:04:50,280 --> 02:04:51,280
Can we cut those in?
1909
02:04:51,280 --> 02:04:52,600
It's like pigs, right?
1910
02:04:52,600 --> 02:04:53,600
You catch this thing.
1911
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,640
And you're going to go, what's that?
1912
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:57,640
Yeah.
1913
02:04:57,640 --> 02:05:00,040
And it does exactly that.
1914
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:05,520
And so I had no idea this thing was, was, was in that river until we caught it that
1915
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:06,520
night.
1916
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,120
And what an enormous fish.
1917
02:05:08,120 --> 02:05:14,560
I mean, this thing literally, I mean, I was, I had a boat that I pulled up onto a sandbar
1918
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:16,760
because I was a little bit scared of crocodiles and stuff.
1919
02:05:16,760 --> 02:05:20,320
And at least the gunnels of the boat and so forth.
1920
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:23,840
And the next thing I hooked this fish, I can't see anything.
1921
02:05:23,840 --> 02:05:25,440
I didn't fish at night.
1922
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:29,520
There's a joke made in that video about me not fishing at night.
1923
02:05:29,520 --> 02:05:34,720
And I hooked this thing and I, and it pulls me down onto the gunnels.
1924
02:05:34,720 --> 02:05:38,640
My knees hit the gunnels and I'm just holding and I'm fishing with really strong terminal
1925
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:42,280
tackle, like a hundred and something pound terminal tackle.
1926
02:05:42,280 --> 02:05:44,720
Cause I thought that might be big, not a perch around.
1927
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:45,720
Yeah.
1928
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:51,440
And the next thing it pulls so hard that it pulls the boat off the sandbar and into the
1929
02:05:51,440 --> 02:05:52,440
pool.
1930
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:53,440
And I'm fighting this thing and stuff.
1931
02:05:53,440 --> 02:05:58,720
And I figured out this and when I got this fish into the shallow water and I approached
1932
02:05:58,720 --> 02:05:59,880
it, I was scared of it.
1933
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:01,520
I've never been scared.
1934
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:04,360
I didn't know what this thing was going to do.
1935
02:06:04,360 --> 02:06:06,240
And anyway, yeah.
1936
02:06:06,240 --> 02:06:11,840
And I can't remember what the scientific name for this fish is, but I mean, it's just enormous.
1937
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:17,920
And later on, you know, through aerial footage and stuff, I was able to find these things.
1938
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:22,320
You know, there's actually, there's a, I've got a small clip of the river where, you
1939
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:27,480
know, I hover above one of these things with a drone and it's sitting in shallow water.
1940
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:34,160
And there's actually a Goliath tiger fish just behind it, you know, on a gravel bar.
1941
02:06:34,160 --> 02:06:41,320
And so these things are targetable on fly, you know, we're going to figure it out.
1942
02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:43,800
And we're going to start catching these things on fly.
1943
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,480
We've already caught the voodoo on fly.
1944
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:52,440
I mean, the, the, the significant, the one, the most significant experience that I had
1945
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:58,120
with a giant voodoo, I refer to them specifically as giant voodoo because a voodoo, I think
1946
02:06:58,120 --> 02:07:04,760
is sort of a maximum size of about 70 kilos, like 150 or 160 pounds in this MPZ river and
1947
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:06,560
in other places and stuff.
1948
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:12,680
But in the Chinko and in the Congo, they can, they can attain 200 plus pounds, right?
1949
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:18,120
And we were going down the river and one of the things we're looking for were hippos as
1950
02:07:18,120 --> 02:07:19,120
well.
1951
02:07:19,120 --> 02:07:23,480
You know, we had to do a hippocound while we did this transect, you know, in our, in
1952
02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:25,400
our big expedition.
1953
02:07:25,400 --> 02:07:31,000
And so downstream of us, I see this hippo come up, like boil, as they do, you know, when
1954
02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:35,400
they, when they come up for air and I immediately said, oh, hippo hippo, right?
1955
02:07:35,400 --> 02:07:36,400
Yeah.
1956
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:42,400
And stop the boats and we look and we look and like, you know, we noticed, but I mean,
1957
02:07:42,400 --> 02:07:50,120
there's no hippo coming up again and that area looks very shallow, right?
1958
02:07:50,120 --> 02:07:54,240
And so we slowly start drifting towards the area again and I start making out that it's
1959
02:07:54,240 --> 02:07:55,240
very shallow.
1960
02:07:55,240 --> 02:07:59,520
I mean, it's about, you know, needy and there's a big sunken log.
1961
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:03,120
I mean, like a really big, you know, one of these, you know, forest trees that fell down,
1962
02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:07,480
obviously broke off into a big stump and there's the stump.
1963
02:08:07,480 --> 02:08:13,240
And I look and I go, that's not a sunken log.
1964
02:08:13,240 --> 02:08:19,760
And the next thing, this enormous, I couldn't believe the size of it, you know, I mean,
1965
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:25,160
you know, it's like, that's how big they get, you know, and this thing comes up and boils
1966
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:30,080
up and takes a gulp of air and I realized that I'd actually mistaken as voodoo for
1967
02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:32,960
a hippo when it came up.
1968
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:34,040
Yeah, I'll leave.
1969
02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:35,040
My God.
1970
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:38,960
And I go, you know, and then notoriously difficult to catch on fly.
1971
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:43,480
I mean, there, you know, it's easy and it's an easy, it's almost impossible.
1972
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:45,360
But we know where that gets us, right?
1973
02:08:45,360 --> 02:08:52,040
So so Ed jumps out to hold the boat and I mean, I go and I take one cast and my fly
1974
02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:56,760
sinks down and my fly sinks down and it hits the sand in this current in front of this
1975
02:08:56,760 --> 02:08:59,640
voodoo and I'm thinking, well, what's good?
1976
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,920
And the next thing is voodoo just imm, it just mobilizes.
1977
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:10,280
It just gets up, looks at like, looks around and goes and just eats my fly.
1978
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:14,120
And well, I mean, that fight was over before it started.
1979
02:09:14,120 --> 02:09:20,000
I just, it just took over everything I had and I never saw that fish again.
1980
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:23,800
But I mean, that was a, that was more than a 200 pound fish.
1981
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:24,800
I couldn't.
1982
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:25,800
Oh my gosh.
1983
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:26,800
That's it.
1984
02:09:26,800 --> 02:09:32,960
You know, it's crazy to think that here's one river system that has all four, all four
1985
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:36,760
of the giant, all living together.
1986
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:41,520
And at the shoots, you can jump across the river.
1987
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:43,640
It's just unbelievable.
1988
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:44,640
It's weird.
1989
02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:49,360
And it's just proof that that place has more secrets yet to reveal.
1990
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:54,720
But we discovered a new species of freshwater jellyfish there.
1991
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:56,000
No, interesting.
1992
02:09:56,000 --> 02:09:58,960
We discovered a new species of freshwater shrimp there.
1993
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:05,760
Terry, the guy I mentioned has, has by now documented more than a hundred species of
1994
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:07,960
fish in that river.
1995
02:10:07,960 --> 02:10:08,960
Yeah.
1996
02:10:08,960 --> 02:10:14,560
So yeah, it's, you know, we don't know, we don't know where things are going to go.
1997
02:10:14,560 --> 02:10:20,160
You know, considering that, you know, we've got freshwater puffer fish we have, you know,
1998
02:10:20,160 --> 02:10:28,120
all sorts of those would, you know, you know, electric catfish, you know, I mean, those
1999
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:29,120
are interesting looking.
2000
02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:30,120
Yeah.
2001
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:31,120
Yeah.
2002
02:10:31,120 --> 02:10:32,120
Yeah.
2003
02:10:32,120 --> 02:10:38,800
The species that, you know, we're still discovering, you know, like on a, on a, on a monthly basis,
2004
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:42,680
you know, Terry is going in there and he's discovering more and more species.
2005
02:10:42,680 --> 02:10:43,680
Yeah.
2006
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:44,880
It's, it's, it's wild.
2007
02:10:44,880 --> 02:10:50,080
It's those kinds of places are clearly vanishing, but it's, you know, I saw the image of the
2008
02:10:50,080 --> 02:10:56,560
the combo catfish, especially it's like, you see more photos online of the voodoo, but
2009
02:10:56,560 --> 02:11:01,200
you don't, it's like you hear how big they can get, but you rarely see photos that validate
2010
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:02,200
it.
2011
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:05,080
But then the combo, I've only seen photos of small ones.
2012
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:09,640
So then the one on y'all's side, I think that might be the biggest, unless I just haven't
2013
02:11:09,640 --> 02:11:11,840
searched hard enough, but it looks enormous.
2014
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:18,360
But I just, there's a handful of these freshwater fish, especially that are, that, that seem
2015
02:11:18,360 --> 02:11:20,600
like nobody's quite figured them out.
2016
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:22,200
Those are kind of in that category.
2017
02:11:22,200 --> 02:11:29,120
I just kind of wonder or if like how many more of these kind of final frontier type places
2018
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:30,120
are left.
2019
02:11:30,120 --> 02:11:37,160
I would, you know, I would probably throw maybe the King Barbas in there and that category,
2020
02:11:37,160 --> 02:11:43,480
at least the ones of that size category, the mangar, whatever you want to call them that
2021
02:11:43,480 --> 02:11:44,480
live in Iran and Afghanistan.
2022
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:45,480
Yeah.
2023
02:11:45,480 --> 02:11:49,560
The mangar is a very, it's a fascinating species, isn't it?
2024
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:53,480
Every now and then you see those kind of poor quality photos or videos of those locals pulling
2025
02:11:53,480 --> 02:12:02,480
out these just, just preposterously enormous specimens, but I've yet to see a, a, a sport
2026
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:03,480
of mangar.
2027
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:04,480
Yeah.
2028
02:12:04,480 --> 02:12:07,480
The mangar was definitely, you know, that's a species high on my list.
2029
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:14,200
I think that my, the reason why I haven't gone, you know, for them is I think because
2030
02:12:14,200 --> 02:12:17,480
of the, the sort of the environment and things like that.
2031
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:23,600
I don't find the, the environment where they're caught very inspiring, you know, it looks
2032
02:12:23,600 --> 02:12:25,600
like you're on the surface of the moon.
2033
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:27,800
There's this big lake that's got the joints.
2034
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:35,160
There was rumors of, of this old sultans palace that had a motor around it where these giant
2035
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:39,000
mangar were and they were fed and God, I don't know what.
2036
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:45,520
Sedoms, Sedoms Palace is when that area got, there's a lot of photos of US soldiers online
2037
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:51,040
at those palace ponds catching these big mangar, but you know, those are like a stocked populations,
2038
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,800
but then every now and then you see these photos of these, I actually saw one that was
2039
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:55,800
disappointing.
2040
02:12:55,800 --> 02:13:00,440
Not that I should be disappointed what other people are doing, but you know, especially
2041
02:13:00,440 --> 02:13:03,880
since I'll probably never go there, but there's this video.
2042
02:13:03,880 --> 02:13:07,800
I think it was literally last week or the week before, I mean, this guy's got six of
2043
02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:13,480
them laid up on a rock bar, all of them, 150 pounds, 200 pound class giant.
2044
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:18,640
I'm like, oh my God, huge, huge, huge fish.
2045
02:13:18,640 --> 02:13:24,120
But I think it's kind of a similar thing where certain parts of, of the Congo may be or may
2046
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:33,680
have once been where it's so, it's like unstable or unsafe for political, you know, reasons
2047
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:34,680
maybe.
2048
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:42,360
I don't know about the, like, you know, it's relatively safe to go into, into various areas
2049
02:13:42,360 --> 02:13:43,360
of the Congo.
2050
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:51,880
And some, some of them you want to stay clear of, you know, but I, you know, I think that
2051
02:13:51,880 --> 02:13:57,320
one of the things that I'm, that really upsets me is the fact that, you know, the sort of
2052
02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:00,160
the US travel advisory, right?
2053
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:05,120
You know, I mean, if you look at it from the CAR's perspective, you know, you go onto the,
2054
02:14:05,120 --> 02:14:08,440
onto the site and it says, don't go to the CA.
2055
02:14:08,440 --> 02:14:09,440
I've seen it.
2056
02:14:09,440 --> 02:14:12,440
It says it about all, so many places it says that.
2057
02:14:12,440 --> 02:14:20,240
And then it says, and if you find yourself in the CAR, leave, you know, and not only
2058
02:14:20,240 --> 02:14:26,600
that also, but, you know, some time ago, there was a study done of, for instance, all of
2059
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:31,880
the different species and things in Africa with the, with the goal of aiding NGOs and
2060
02:14:31,880 --> 02:14:38,840
stuff to sort of appropriate, you know, money or, or to sort of designate money and funds.
2061
02:14:38,840 --> 02:14:46,640
And these scientists went and wholesale to clear central African Republic as devoid of
2062
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:53,040
fish, they declared the chinko devoid of fish and of animal species and so forth.
2063
02:14:53,040 --> 02:15:01,280
And so, so I'm really, I mean, I am, I'm infuriated by these ill-informed travel advisories
2064
02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:08,520
that are basically taking a, a, a country like the CAR that is now, you know, it's rising
2065
02:15:08,520 --> 02:15:14,720
up from this violent past from more than a decade ago, you know, and it, it's desperate
2066
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:20,200
for the sort of attention that these sort of countries need from a tourism perspective,
2067
02:15:20,200 --> 02:15:23,200
from an investment perspective and so forth.
2068
02:15:23,200 --> 02:15:28,320
And here are these horribly ill-advised travel advisories, still saying, no, don't go, don't
2069
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:29,320
touch.
2070
02:15:29,320 --> 02:15:34,920
And at the same time, you've got these, these scientific journals saying it's devoid of
2071
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:39,000
species, forget it, spend your money elsewhere.
2072
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:44,400
And so it's making it really hard for us to sort of get proper funding and to get people
2073
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:48,480
in this group and to get them, and to get the sort of exposure that the Central African
2074
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:52,640
Republic really needs to rebuild itself.
2075
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:54,720
And I don't know what to do.
2076
02:15:54,720 --> 02:15:59,880
And I'm not quite sure who to speak to about this, but I mean, it's, it's, it's borderline
2077
02:15:59,880 --> 02:16:05,080
criminal, what they're doing to the potential investment and to the potential, you know,
2078
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:09,520
tourism and stuff of this country that's so desperately, desperately needs it, you know.
2079
02:16:09,520 --> 02:16:10,520
Yeah.
2080
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:13,880
Yeah, I bet I feel sort of digging down that rabbit hole.
2081
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:19,080
That's probably a deep, deep, I don't know.
2082
02:16:19,080 --> 02:16:24,920
It is weird because yeah, yeah, that's beyond my level of comprehension.
2083
02:16:24,920 --> 02:16:28,560
I've seen the same thing when I'm researching places I'd like to travel and almost invariably
2084
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:30,800
all of them say that I'm like, what?
2085
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:35,040
I mean, is there anywhere other than America that's worth visiting?
2086
02:16:35,040 --> 02:16:36,040
According to this thing?
2087
02:16:36,040 --> 02:16:37,040
I mean, what am I looking at here?
2088
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:41,200
But yeah, that's, that's sad.
2089
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:44,680
It's sad that you kind of have to go see things for yourself, but then that's also, you know,
2090
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:50,400
you come back with a new perspective about now I need to start verifying things on my
2091
02:16:50,400 --> 02:16:55,080
own everywhere I go and all elements of life, which is a good thing to do anyway, instead
2092
02:16:55,080 --> 02:17:00,480
of blindly following, blindly trusting, blindly believing everything that you hear.
2093
02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:03,760
That transcends just fishing.
2094
02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:11,920
You know, I think this surprise, this may be near the end of the stuff I had to ask you.
2095
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:15,880
I've never asked anybody this question, but I always wanted to because it's something
2096
02:17:15,880 --> 02:17:17,120
that people ask me.
2097
02:17:17,120 --> 02:17:23,920
I'm going to try to figure out a way to formulate this question because you're a guy who's,
2098
02:17:23,920 --> 02:17:31,360
a guy who's done really interesting and awesome freshwater fishing and saltwater fishing.
2099
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:37,080
You know, I sat and kind of entertained myself watching a few videos that featured you.
2100
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:42,440
One such video, I think you were in Argentina and you're like running along the bank and
2101
02:17:42,440 --> 02:17:44,280
you dive in the water after a capybara.
2102
02:17:44,280 --> 02:17:50,280
I'm like, this, this is a wild guy here, which is a very unique looking.
2103
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:51,800
That was a interesting area.
2104
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:57,320
I don't want to go down the rabbit hole necessarily and open up, you know, eat up more of your
2105
02:17:57,320 --> 02:17:59,400
time, but I looked at that area.
2106
02:17:59,400 --> 02:18:02,760
I'm like, it looks like the, at first, at first, the opening part of that video, I thought
2107
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:07,160
you were in the Everglades, just the marshy, the marshy area.
2108
02:18:07,160 --> 02:18:11,240
But anyway, so you've gone to these areas and you've caught very unique freshwater fish
2109
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:16,840
and very unique saltwater fish, very sporty saltwater fish, Marlin.
2110
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:21,720
I mean, the things that you've done, the seychelles, which is just, I mean, you talk about a dream
2111
02:18:21,720 --> 02:18:28,680
location, but there's this idea, there's this consensus that, well, saltwater fish, they're
2112
02:18:28,680 --> 02:18:33,680
bigger, they're faster, they're more beautiful, they're, they're better and superior in every
2113
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:37,840
way from the way that they taste it to everything, which is, you know, of course, granted, this
2114
02:18:37,840 --> 02:18:43,040
is opinion based, but this is, you know, I have most of my experience of leaned into the
2115
02:18:43,040 --> 02:18:44,680
freshwater thing.
2116
02:18:44,680 --> 02:18:49,720
I have my own personal reasons for that, I think.
2117
02:18:49,720 --> 02:18:53,320
But people always ask me, well, why don't, you know, why do you do so much, if you're
2118
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:56,840
going to travel, why don't you do more saltwater fishing?
2119
02:18:56,840 --> 02:19:02,360
What, you know, in your experience in saltwater fishing and freshwater fishing, I mean, what
2120
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:06,360
are you deriving from the two that's different?
2121
02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:13,160
That, because I think that you get a different, obviously uniquely different experience and
2122
02:19:13,160 --> 02:19:20,200
you, you know, you come away with different takeaways from both, but I don't know, for
2123
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:25,120
you, for, you know, the things that drive you to go catch tarp and I imagine are different
2124
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:29,680
than the things that would drive you to go somewhere to catch the Colorado.
2125
02:19:29,680 --> 02:19:34,040
I get it, and I often think of people ask me, what is my preference?
2126
02:19:34,040 --> 02:19:40,840
And I think that you've listed all of my preferences as well, you know, from a saltwater, saltwater
2127
02:19:40,840 --> 02:19:46,520
fishing perspective, you know, the environment, I mean, it's pinacaladas under palm trees,
2128
02:19:46,520 --> 02:19:51,040
you know, with these beautiful silver fish that, you know, not that a tarp and tastes
2129
02:19:51,040 --> 02:19:56,360
good, but, you know, anything else, you know, tastes, tastes great, you know, sashimi right
2130
02:19:56,360 --> 02:20:03,360
there, you know, I mean, wonderful weather, you know, beautiful colors, reefs, interesting
2131
02:20:03,360 --> 02:20:11,040
speed, I mean, yeah, saltwater fishing or fly fishing is definitely, I mean, it's, it
2132
02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:13,360
is a preference.
2133
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:23,480
It's my preference, but I, there are no good life tiger fish in the salt, you know.
2134
02:20:23,480 --> 02:20:32,600
So I think, I think maybe that's also what I really just, why that fish inspired me so
2135
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:40,560
much is because I definitely have a preference for the salt, but this fish, this one is,
2136
02:20:40,560 --> 02:20:49,720
it tops it, it tops all of the kind of thing, you know, it is, it, you know, just from how
2137
02:20:49,720 --> 02:20:55,000
mysterious it is, the area in which it is, the, you know, the fact that, you know, I'm
2138
02:20:55,000 --> 02:21:00,960
from Africa and that I love Africa so much and that it's unexplored, you know, I mean,
2139
02:21:00,960 --> 02:21:05,920
tell me what's unexplored about a tarpon and about a blue marlin and about all of these
2140
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:06,920
fish.
2141
02:21:06,920 --> 02:21:11,960
I mean, is there actually anything unexplored, you know, sure, the deepest, the deepest,
2142
02:21:11,960 --> 02:21:16,760
the marinara trench and those places are unexplored, but I mean, you know, we've seen footage from
2143
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:20,760
submarines go down there, nothing down there really interests me.
2144
02:21:20,760 --> 02:21:21,760
There's nothing to be found.
2145
02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:26,080
There's nothing that I can go and experience there.
2146
02:21:26,080 --> 02:21:33,920
You know, there might be one or two, two atolls in the world that are, that are not kind of
2147
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:38,960
as well documented as others, but honestly, what am I going to go and discover in the
2148
02:21:38,960 --> 02:21:39,960
salt?
2149
02:21:39,960 --> 02:21:46,320
I don't think there's anything, you know, I went to a bunch of places, you know, I've
2150
02:21:46,320 --> 02:21:51,360
been to the infamous Bassist India, which is, which is in the Mozambique channel, which
2151
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:57,400
is really, really difficult to go to and a treacherous atoll to go to.
2152
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:04,120
I, you know, obviously we explored the seychelles and some of the more unfished atolls and reefs
2153
02:22:04,120 --> 02:22:08,440
and atolls of the seychelles.
2154
02:22:08,440 --> 02:22:13,040
And I, you know, I've got my radar, you know, they wanted to place this on my radar and so
2155
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:20,600
that I'd still like to go and see or try and explore, but I'm not hopeful of finding
2156
02:22:20,600 --> 02:22:23,200
something new.
2157
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:27,960
If you know, the nice thing about that, I think that fresh water offers us, especially
2158
02:22:27,960 --> 02:22:33,400
in the unexplored, you know, cavities of the, of, of Central Africa and even in the Amazon
2159
02:22:33,400 --> 02:22:38,240
and in places like that is that there are truly things left to explore.
2160
02:22:38,240 --> 02:22:39,240
Yeah.
2161
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:40,400
Places to bomb and so forth.
2162
02:22:40,400 --> 02:22:45,280
You know, most of your, most of your great discoveries like Tumani for the, for the, for
2163
02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:54,160
the, for the Dorado and like places like the Tugur for the Taiman and things like that.
2164
02:22:54,160 --> 02:22:58,800
You know, they, these are some of the more recent, you know, findings and things that
2165
02:22:58,800 --> 02:22:59,800
we found.
2166
02:22:59,800 --> 02:23:03,360
And like we're talking about the, the mangar.
2167
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:09,120
And so there's somebody maybe like me that has got his heart set on finding that place
2168
02:23:09,120 --> 02:23:12,040
where the mangar is and lives and so on.
2169
02:23:12,040 --> 02:23:16,240
I see now they now have a, you know, Himalayan adventures and stuff.
2170
02:23:16,240 --> 02:23:22,040
I've got these, these trips going into, um, Wutan for the, for the golden moss here.
2171
02:23:22,040 --> 02:23:23,040
Yeah.
2172
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:24,960
So, so I think that's it.
2173
02:23:24,960 --> 02:23:31,520
I think maybe the one thing that fresh has over the salt is unexplored spaces.
2174
02:23:31,520 --> 02:23:32,520
Yeah.
2175
02:23:32,520 --> 02:23:36,080
Which is weird to think given how vast the oceans are.
2176
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:37,080
I don't know.
2177
02:23:37,080 --> 02:23:39,600
I mean, I guess the best answer is enjoy both of them.
2178
02:23:39,600 --> 02:23:40,600
Yeah.
2179
02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:44,360
I think I've got different reasons, but, uh, you know, what I've always tried to tell people
2180
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:50,720
is like, I tend to favor the large and the unique freshwater fish, which just seem to
2181
02:23:50,720 --> 02:23:54,480
be less and less over time.
2182
02:23:54,480 --> 02:23:59,400
But it's also like when you think about the ocean, there's this, there's an expectation
2183
02:23:59,400 --> 02:24:03,640
even among people who have nothing to do with fishing, that that's where the sea monsters
2184
02:24:03,640 --> 02:24:04,640
live.
2185
02:24:04,640 --> 02:24:11,560
It's like, um, it's not out of the realm of the imagination that's, that's something
2186
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:18,640
unique lives in the ocean, but, um, that, that's not as much the case with fresh water.
2187
02:24:18,640 --> 02:24:26,560
So in some weird regard, a fish like an alligator gar is, is just seems more, I don't know.
2188
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:29,440
That's when I try to articulate this to people.
2189
02:24:29,440 --> 02:24:30,440
That's what I try to say.
2190
02:24:30,440 --> 02:24:32,000
I mean, we drink fresh water.
2191
02:24:32,000 --> 02:24:33,920
We interact with fresh water.
2192
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:35,920
It's familiar to us.
2193
02:24:35,920 --> 02:24:43,820
So the idea that something nightmarish, like a Goliath tiger fish is, is, is in such proximity
2194
02:24:43,820 --> 02:24:48,040
to where we live and the things that we interact with is not, it's, I don't know.
2195
02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:49,800
It's that we don't think about that.
2196
02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:50,800
It's, it's different.
2197
02:24:50,800 --> 02:24:53,000
It's, I don't know.
2198
02:24:53,000 --> 02:24:58,040
It's, it's not really too surprised by seeing something with big sharp teeth living in the
2199
02:24:58,040 --> 02:25:03,440
ocean, but when it's in the river down the street or it's a river that's adjacent to
2200
02:25:03,440 --> 02:25:08,920
where a community or a tribe or a whatever lives, it's like, whoa, that's, that's different.
2201
02:25:08,920 --> 02:25:10,080
That's, that's unique.
2202
02:25:10,080 --> 02:25:13,360
But, um, yeah, it's, it's an interesting topic.
2203
02:25:13,360 --> 02:25:16,640
The best answer though, I love saltwater fishing too.
2204
02:25:16,640 --> 02:25:19,280
The real answer is maybe it's just an issue of accessibility.
2205
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:25,800
I got to get my funds together and myself a boat or something like that.
2206
02:25:25,800 --> 02:25:33,200
But anyway, man, well, friends, well, I've eaten up more than two hours of your time.
2207
02:25:33,200 --> 02:25:36,320
Um, you know, it tends to go that way when you're really enjoying the conversation.
2208
02:25:36,320 --> 02:25:41,200
I don't put time limits on these things, but at the same time, um, you know, I don't want
2209
02:25:41,200 --> 02:25:43,160
it, I don't want to eat up all your time.
2210
02:25:43,160 --> 02:25:47,600
I guess, uh, you've, you've done a lot and I actually, I wanted to talk about some of
2211
02:25:47,600 --> 02:25:50,080
your photography, but you know, people can go see that.
2212
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:55,920
I tell you, I really appreciate and admire somebody that has a real knack for the art
2213
02:25:55,920 --> 02:26:01,440
of photography and, and some of the images that you take, what I love are, aren't just
2214
02:26:01,440 --> 02:26:03,240
the, the photos of the fish.
2215
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:07,960
Like you, you've done a great job and, um, all the socials and things that you have,
2216
02:26:07,960 --> 02:26:12,560
videos, socials of, of capturing everything that's around you.
2217
02:26:12,560 --> 02:26:18,040
Um, but where can I guess that where I would end is like, where can, where can people see
2218
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:23,680
some of the stuff that you do, whether it be the Goliath expeditions, maybe a website.
2219
02:26:23,680 --> 02:26:26,840
I don't know if y'all do YouTube, any of the Instagram.
2220
02:26:26,840 --> 02:26:31,880
I've got a YouTube channel where, you know, I've just got about six or so videos that
2221
02:26:31,880 --> 02:26:37,680
I sort of compiled, um, uh, of some of the places that I've been, you know, Russian,
2222
02:26:37,680 --> 02:26:42,440
um, salmon and, you know, GTs in the South African surf and like the Goliath Tiger fish.
2223
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:45,840
I mean, there's a small little sort of teaser on that.
2224
02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:51,080
Uh, and then, uh, you know, Goliath expeditions is solely dedicated to the, to the Goliath
2225
02:26:51,080 --> 02:26:52,080
Tiger fish.
2226
02:26:52,080 --> 02:26:59,760
I do have a, my Instagram, uh, Fran Bow fly fishing, um, which I'm sure you've seen.
2227
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:02,920
I don't know if you can link in the podcast.
2228
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:03,920
Yep.
2229
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:10,440
You know, that's got a, you know, a reasonably a good library, uh, and so forth of, of my
2230
02:27:10,440 --> 02:27:12,320
photographs and things.
2231
02:27:12,320 --> 02:27:18,680
Um, but I haven't really got a place that showcased, uh, you know, the sort of what you've just
2232
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:23,760
mentioned, you know, the, the extras, you know, all of the beautiful landscape photography
2233
02:27:23,760 --> 02:27:24,760
and things like that.
2234
02:27:24,760 --> 02:27:29,080
You know, I've written numerous articles for magazines over the years that also tried
2235
02:27:29,080 --> 02:27:30,080
to capture that.
2236
02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:35,760
Um, I've also managed quite a few, uh, lodges and things as social media.
2237
02:27:35,760 --> 02:27:41,560
And, you know, they've got a lot of my stuff on social media, not, not necessarily the easiest
2238
02:27:41,560 --> 02:27:43,600
to find, but it's a good point.
2239
02:27:43,600 --> 02:27:48,600
You know, I should, I should perhaps, you know, put some of my, some of my photography more,
2240
02:27:48,600 --> 02:27:50,360
more, uh, accessible.
2241
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:51,920
Well, uh, caution people.
2242
02:27:51,920 --> 02:27:56,600
If you Google Francois Bow, though, you might just find a bunch of old Mike Tyson boxing
2243
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:57,600
clips.
2244
02:27:57,600 --> 02:28:00,600
So I was like, wait a minute.
2245
02:28:00,600 --> 02:28:01,600
Yeah.
2246
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:03,600
That name sounded familiar.
2247
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:05,600
Oh, well, yeah.
2248
02:28:05,600 --> 02:28:10,960
He was, he was our biggest export with my name and with my name type in fishing afterwards
2249
02:28:10,960 --> 02:28:11,960
and you'll be fine.
2250
02:28:11,960 --> 02:28:14,560
Yeah, I guess that's probably what's got you in Mexico right now.
2251
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:15,960
You're in Mexico right now, right?
2252
02:28:15,960 --> 02:28:16,960
Yeah.
2253
02:28:16,960 --> 02:28:17,960
Um, is that that Palometa club?
2254
02:28:17,960 --> 02:28:20,960
I don't know if I'm saying that right.
2255
02:28:20,960 --> 02:28:21,960
So I saw that.
2256
02:28:21,960 --> 02:28:22,960
I saw you now.
2257
02:28:22,960 --> 02:28:24,960
In the Ascension Bay.
2258
02:28:24,960 --> 02:28:30,960
So we're the sort of premier permit fishing destination in the world.
2259
02:28:30,960 --> 02:28:33,960
Um, and Mexico currently residing here with my wife.
2260
02:28:33,960 --> 02:28:40,200
She and I managed the Palometa club and, um, you know, we're also a fantastic, uh, tarpon
2261
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:42,200
fishing fishery as well.
2262
02:28:42,200 --> 02:28:43,200
Yeah.
2263
02:28:43,200 --> 02:28:49,200
And, uh, yeah, uh, an amazing place to live in a small town called Punta Alén in, uh,
2264
02:28:49,200 --> 02:28:51,640
in the Sion Khan Biosphere Reserve.
2265
02:28:51,640 --> 02:28:55,760
And, uh, it really is a, it's a, it's a remarkable place.
2266
02:28:55,760 --> 02:29:02,640
And, you know, I now am feasting on the saltwater fishing and catching basically big tarpon and
2267
02:29:02,640 --> 02:29:07,680
permit all on, um, you know, this year, my, my big thing is to try and get a big permit
2268
02:29:07,680 --> 02:29:09,280
and a big tarpon on my paddleboard.
2269
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:11,000
Uh, love fishing from a paddleboard.
2270
02:29:11,000 --> 02:29:16,360
And it actually offers a significant additional challenge on a paddleboard.
2271
02:29:16,360 --> 02:29:17,360
Yeah.
2272
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:21,640
Trying to catch a little bit more of tarpon to also have to maneuver this boat and to
2273
02:29:21,640 --> 02:29:25,920
also have to get the physical exertion to try and get somewhere.
2274
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:28,920
And you're just a little south of Tulum, right?
2275
02:29:28,920 --> 02:29:29,920
Correct.
2276
02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:30,920
Yeah.
2277
02:29:30,920 --> 02:29:31,920
Yeah.
2278
02:29:31,920 --> 02:29:33,920
Well, my wife keeps my wife keeps saying she wants to go to Tulum.
2279
02:29:33,920 --> 02:29:35,760
So maybe I'll, maybe I'll.
2280
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:36,760
Yeah.
2281
02:29:36,760 --> 02:29:37,760
You should come and look us up.
2282
02:29:37,760 --> 02:29:42,720
I mean, I try to go to her and to let me travel a little further south, but, uh,
2283
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:43,720
Absolutely.
2284
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:44,720
You should come.
2285
02:29:44,720 --> 02:29:51,480
I mean, really, I think as a fishery, um, as a fly fishery as well, this is, you know,
2286
02:29:51,480 --> 02:29:52,960
the ascension based cuttle.
2287
02:29:52,960 --> 02:29:57,880
I mean, it's got your most sought after species like your, your tarpon, bonefish, permit and
2288
02:29:57,880 --> 02:29:58,880
snook.
2289
02:29:58,880 --> 02:30:05,160
Um, you know, the, the, the fisheries beautifully intact, you know, our tarpon, our migratory
2290
02:30:05,160 --> 02:30:08,040
tarpon are still high, happy and hungry.
2291
02:30:08,040 --> 02:30:09,800
I mean, they'll eat your phone.
2292
02:30:09,800 --> 02:30:11,640
If you could put a hook through it.
2293
02:30:11,640 --> 02:30:12,640
Um, yes.
2294
02:30:12,640 --> 02:30:17,800
So, and you know, we'll, you know, we've got, you know, we see hundreds and hundreds of
2295
02:30:17,800 --> 02:30:21,080
permit each day, whether you can make one eat is a different story.
2296
02:30:21,080 --> 02:30:23,360
Well I'm not the most polished fly angler.
2297
02:30:23,360 --> 02:30:24,360
Unfortunately.
2298
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:28,680
That's, it's another skill in my arsenal that I've allowed to get rusty, but I need,
2299
02:30:28,680 --> 02:30:34,760
I need to brush that off and maybe try to catch something a little easier first and work
2300
02:30:34,760 --> 02:30:37,160
my way up to something like that.
2301
02:30:37,160 --> 02:30:41,080
But um, yeah, man, France, well, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
2302
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:42,080
Thank you very much.
2303
02:30:42,080 --> 02:30:44,080
I really enjoyed it too.
2304
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:46,240
The trip down memory lane for me.
2305
02:30:46,240 --> 02:30:47,240
Yeah.
2306
02:30:47,240 --> 02:30:53,800
Well, it's inspiring for me because as I said, it's a species of fish that, uh, I don't know,
2307
02:30:53,800 --> 02:30:59,240
it's just kind of blocked out any, I don't know, any space for other stuff at the, at
2308
02:30:59,240 --> 02:31:00,240
the time being.
2309
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:06,480
I don't know what avenue that I'll go necessarily to catch one, uh, but it's, it's one I hope
2310
02:31:06,480 --> 02:31:07,480
to make happen.
2311
02:31:07,480 --> 02:31:12,000
It, if things stay on course potentially in the next year or two, but, but we'll see
2312
02:31:12,000 --> 02:31:13,000
how that plays out.
2313
02:31:13,000 --> 02:31:15,200
I've got some interesting ideas for you.
2314
02:31:15,200 --> 02:31:16,520
We can, we can chat about that.
2315
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:17,520
Yeah.
2316
02:31:17,520 --> 02:31:19,480
We can bounce ideas off, off, off record.
2317
02:31:19,480 --> 02:31:22,160
I would love that because I'm sure you have a lot of inside information.
2318
02:31:22,160 --> 02:31:28,520
It's as you know, very hard to find, uh, much, much data points on, on that species of fish
2319
02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:29,520
or locations.
2320
02:31:29,520 --> 02:31:32,720
Anyway, friends, so all men, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
2321
02:31:32,720 --> 02:31:36,000
And, uh, yeah, let's, let's stay in touch off the record.
2322
02:31:36,000 --> 02:31:37,000
Okay.
2323
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:38,000
Fantastic.
2324
02:31:38,000 --> 02:31:39,000
Thank you very much.
2325
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:40,000
David, really appreciate it.
2326
02:31:40,000 --> 02:31:41,000
All right, man.
2327
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:42,000
Have a good one.
2328
02:31:42,000 --> 02:31:43,000
Nice to meet you.
2329
02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:45,680
Thank you for listening to boundless pursuit.
2330
02:31:45,680 --> 02:31:50,040
Tune in each week as we bring stories and insight from uniquely talented anglers and
2331
02:31:50,040 --> 02:31:51,040
outdoorsmen.
2332
02:31:51,040 --> 02:31:54,080
And if you enjoyed this show, I want to hear from you.
2333
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:57,920
Be sure to leave a five star review as this is going to drive the growth and exposure
2334
02:31:57,920 --> 02:31:59,080
of this show.
2335
02:31:59,080 --> 02:32:02,760
And if you have feedback or guest suggestions, I would love to hear from you.
2336
02:32:02,760 --> 02:32:07,240
And you can reach me at boundless pursuit fishing at gmail.com.
2337
02:32:07,240 --> 02:32:32,920
For all other collections of media and contact information, please visit www.boundless-pursuit.com.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800
This is the Boundless Pursuit Podcast, a show highlighting the purity of the experience
2
00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,440
without limitation.
3
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,560
Each week we'll bring anglers as diverse as the fish they chase, whether it be from
4
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,360
your backyard or your bucket list.
5
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,040
Fresh water, salt water, conventional gear or fly.
6
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:26,200
We're bringing stories and perspectives from fishermen from all walks of life, from across
7
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,000
the country and globe.
8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,880
In the digital age, authentic communication and networking is critical and I'd love to
9
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:39,200
hear from you about show suggestions, potential guests or general feedback.
10
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:48,720
You can reach me at boundlesspersuitfishing at gmail.com or at my website, www.boundless-persuit.com.
11
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,760
That's where you'll find the entire collection of written articles, podcast episodes and
12
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:54,760
media.
13
00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:00,480
I deeply value the feedback, ratings, reviews and support of my listeners and I look forward
14
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,480
to hearing from you.
15
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,120
I'm your host David Graham.
16
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:09,320
Now let's get on to today's episode.
17
00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:15,360
It's estimated that there's over 220 million fishermen scattered across the globe in a
18
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,800
sport and as a means of sustenance that has grown for tens of thousands of years.
19
00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:27,640
On a planet where natural resources and truly wild places are disappearing at a rapid rate,
20
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:34,960
the opportunity or the very idea of the opportunity to be a pioneer or the first to see something
21
00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,680
or go somewhere in fishing is all but gone.
22
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:44,720
My guest today though has waded streams and wet flies and some of the most pristine waters
23
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,600
and untouched landscapes on earth.
24
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:53,840
Pacing arguably the most difficult fish to catch on the planet, the Goliath Tigerfish.
25
00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:00,400
Francois Bootha of South Africa is a tremendously experienced angler, adventurer, photographer
26
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:01,400
and philosopher.
27
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,960
A guy that's fished his way across the globe catching some of the most recognized and sought-after
28
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,880
sportfish in the world.
29
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,640
But there's one species that has captivated him beyond all others.
30
00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:19,120
Bootha's Goliath Tigerfish is maybe the most interesting character in all of freshwater,
31
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,480
but it's not the biggest, it's not the strongest or the most beautiful.
32
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:29,760
The allure of the Goliath Tigerfish may just be in the impossibility of encountering one,
33
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,160
but Bootha took his interest in its pursuit beyond what's already a tall order and made
34
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,320
it even more ambitious by chasing them on the fly.
35
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,320
And it was some two decades ago that Bootha launched his initial expeditions into the
36
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,960
heart of the Congo with one goal in mind, drown out the naysayers who echoed the same
37
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,280
pessimistic sentiment and catch the un-catchable fish on fly.
38
00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,560
And his story of doing so and beholding possibly the first ever fly caught Goliath Tigerfish
39
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,920
is one of the most intriguing chronicles that I've ever heard.
40
00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:08,800
And his ability to articulate this journey and sew together the story with projections
41
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,800
of genuine passion for the hunt is amazing.
42
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,720
And in this conversation, we talk about the tall order of launching these early campaigns
43
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:23,040
into untouched and frankly unmapped areas into the geometric center of Africa.
44
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,760
And this isn't a time before access to satellite maps, internet research, or any real sophisticated
45
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,520
means of even traveling into the areas.
46
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,280
And Bootha breaks down the breakdown of mental and physical barriers along the way where
47
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:42,400
nearly tapping out and nearly turning back could have set back the Goliath Tigerfish
48
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,840
by God only knows how long.
49
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:50,320
And we talk about the launch of Goliath Expeditions, a travel and fishing outfitter that now hosts
50
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,300
trips into the Chinko Reserve for this incredible species.
51
00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:59,640
But more importantly has taken steps in its partnership with African parks to ensure the
52
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,640
conservation of these unspoiled lands, fish, and wildlife.
53
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:11,720
This is an awesome story of persistence, perseverance, and true dedication and adventure by one of
54
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,680
the best storytellers I've had the privilege of talking to.
55
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,840
This is Francois Bootha of Goliath Expeditions.
56
00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:22,800
I'm just trying to get connected, but I mean, I really appreciate getting you on here.
57
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,480
I love all the guests that I get.
58
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:32,120
I like very proudly boast that I've had very diverse anglers from around the world and
59
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,480
the country who've been nice enough to lend me some of their time and just shed light
60
00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,040
on their experience.
61
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,840
And while I'm interested in all of the topics, otherwise I wouldn't invite people in the
62
00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:43,360
first place.
63
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,800
There's certain ones that are like, I feel like are on my path.
64
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,800
Like it's like indirect alignment with where I want to go with my own fishing.
65
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,840
And I know I've mentioned this before we started recording, but your experience with Goliath
66
00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:03,400
Tigerfish is, is unparalleled, it's unprecedented.
67
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:09,200
And in a landscape of anglers that encompasses, I mean, how many fishermen do you think there
68
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,840
are on planet earth?
69
00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,000
Millions, hundreds of millions.
70
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,520
I've often won the nominee.
71
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:16,520
They all.
72
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,520
Yeah.
73
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:23,600
And so to be in a company of very few and any type of fishing is, is rare because there's
74
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,120
so many of us.
75
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:30,040
Slim chances that you're doing something no one's done before, but I feel like you've,
76
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,240
you've kind of stood on rare grounds and some of the places you've begun, but the Goliath
77
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:40,720
Tigerfish, I'd be lying if I said it is a fish that I've dreamt about my whole life.
78
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,520
I think that's cliche.
79
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,800
It is actually a very recent interest.
80
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,880
It's one that I'd seen and I can't really put my finger on it.
81
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:54,400
It's almost like, I think at first my mind was occupied with like the era pima for the
82
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:55,760
longest time.
83
00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,960
That was like my childhood fish.
84
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,840
The one where all my focus was on for years and years and years as my path as an angler
85
00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:09,000
progressed, but then I got that one done and it almost came so easy that I felt guilty
86
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,000
about it.
87
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,400
I'm like that, like I got there and it just happened.
88
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:18,560
And I'm like, yeah, you know, it was kind of anti climactic, you know, but then this
89
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,880
Goliath Tigerfish got on my radar probably within the last, you know, couple of years
90
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:30,840
and I'd say in the last year, there's become this just, it's not an interest.
91
00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:36,920
It's become this intense obsession, dreaming about it, losing sleep about it, doodling
92
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,400
and drawing pictures of them, even on my notes right here.
93
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,200
I just, I can't, I cannot stop thinking about this fish.
94
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,680
And so, yeah.
95
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:51,760
And so you're a guy who's, I think I'm walking in your footsteps, but you experienced that
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20 years ago, nearly 20 years ago.
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Maybe even longer ago.
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I was, I was, I was 18 years old and I was working in a fly shop in Johannesburg, South
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Africa.
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And I'd, I'd, I'd only taken up fly fishing a year prior to that, but already I was trying
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to explore as much of it as I could, you know, fishing in any damp patch, you know, before
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school, after school, weekends, wherever.
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It was mostly subject to things like trout and bass and what was available.
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And obviously, you know, having grown up and having done one or two trips into Africa with
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my, with my parents and having, you know, spin fished for normal tiger fish.
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Yeah.
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It was an obvious sort of next progression, you know, and, you know, there was the knowledge
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that they've been caught on fly, which was fine.
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But I was working in this fly shop and somebody walked in there and I questioned them because
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I think they brought some tiger fish flies in to show us and I, I discussed it with them
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and, and they mentioned this Goliath tiger fish, this giant tiger fish from the Congo
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River.
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And I think as, as this guy started speaking about this fish, it immediately captured me.
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It was, it was, it was a, it was so strange, you know, I think that I was quite hyperactive
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and I think it was very difficult to focus and concentrate on things.
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I found fishing so amazing.
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But this topic, this fish really grabbed me and I, I immediately had this vision in my
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head about this river and this river course and this fish, this, this enigmatic, this
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giant tiger fish that was swimming in it.
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And I just sort of, I was hooked and, and, and, you know, from there, you know, every,
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every, every chance I had, you know, the limited information that was available about this
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fish, I just soaked up.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, that's crazy because there's, there's still limited information.
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Granted, now we live in a day and age where you can at least see images of things you never
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knew existed at the swipe of your finger.
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But I think that's pretty interesting that the first time you learned of the fish was
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in a fly shop, word of mouth, I'm guessing from the words of a guy that experienced them
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firsthand.
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That's pretty neat.
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I guess that speaks to kind of fly shop culture.
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I envy that because now you kind of learn things, you know, seeing it on TV, river monsters
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or Instagram.
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I don't even think that the person that mentioned the fish had seen or had seen them.
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Okay.
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You know, these, these fish have been this, this, this almost mythical thing, you know,
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you know, whenever you speak with a guy, you know, somebody might say, well, it was
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speak of any tiger fish and they go, well, how big do they get?
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And then there's some talk about that.
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And then eventually somebody drops this bomb on you that there's one that grows to 120
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pounds and lives in the Congo River.
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And, you know, this is sort of before, you know, all of the online stuff was available.
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And so, yeah, right.
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There's very limited information about them.
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In fact, it was only about a year later that I, that I came across a book by Jeremy Wade
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and Paul Boote called, Down the Crazy River.
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And you know, I was, by that time I, I'd moved to London and I was living in London and I
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worked in the hardies of Palmel.
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I was very fortunate to work for them for a year.
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Hardies a fast food restaurant?
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No, House of a Hardie.
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The five or six grand.
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Okay.
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And there I also, you know, I mean, you know, I was just all about this fish.
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I mean, you know, anybody that got to know me knew that I wanted to know about this fish.
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And, and my manager comes to me says, well, here's this book, Somewhere Down the Crazy
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River by Jeremy Wade and Paul Boote.
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And you know, it was, it was, it was a book about fishing for golden marcia in India and
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then they're going after the Goliath tiger fish.
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And I was entranced for the first time, I actually saw some validated, you know, sort
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of photographs and stuff for people in fishing fish.
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And you know, it wasn't a month or so that went by.
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And one day there was this guy in a barber trench coat standing in the front of hardies
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and so and I looked at him and I said, well, this doesn't look like our normal sort of
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client.
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And somebody said to me, do you know who that is?
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And I said, no, I don't know who that is.
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And they said, well, that's Paul Boote.
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That's the co-author of that book.
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What are the odds of that?
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What are the odds of that?
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That's crazy.
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I leached onto him like a lamprey eel.
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And I just, I just had to get as much information out of him as possible.
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And he was a little bit cagey about it.
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You know, I suppose, you know, as fishermen are about what they're doing.
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But yeah, he sort of gave a few details and stuff.
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But it was when I said to him, look, I mean, I want to go catch them, but I want to do
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it on fly.
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That he looked at me and he went, buddy, there's just no way.
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That's just not going to happen.
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And that, you know, there also started the sort of the thread of, you know, anybody that
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I that I encountered or sort of that had that had known a little bit about this fish or
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that had encountered or fished for this fish, you know, whenever I mean, I'd like to try
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and catch them on fly.
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You know, it was just said to be impossible.
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You know, I mean, here's a fish that that in all regards, you know, it's the, you know,
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the somebody coined it as the last of the unexplored game fish of the world, you know,
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and and they're really difficult.
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And it must be one of the hardest fish to catch, you know, bar, sealer cat, you know,
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right.
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Yeah, who wants to catch a sealer cat.
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But you know, these things are just tremendously difficult to find.
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You know, if you have a look at the Congo River, you know, it's the second largest river
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in the world.
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It crosses the equator twice.
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It flows chocolate brown most of the time.
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There's hardly a dry season.
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And and so, you know, I mean, in some places, it's two miles across.
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And I think it's also the widest river in the world at 15 miles across Stanley's pool.
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And you know, the deepest river in the world at 400 feet in the conchausa rapids.
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And you know, you just don't know where to start looking, you know, and you know, what's
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also happened is, of course, you know, the Congo has been subject to a wholesale exploitation.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Well, deforestation, you know, the making of charcoal, you know, there's a bit of an
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energy crisis in conchausa and so forth.
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So you know, people are basically cooking, making everything on coals and stuff.
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So they need charcoal.
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And you know, so, so all of the banks of the river are basically blown and, you know, the
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mud slides everywhere and things.
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And that doesn't help for the clarity of the water either.
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And, you know, there's this palm oil trade that's that's going whole, whole, whole, whole
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something unchecked.
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And so, yeah, so, so I think that, you know, not only for the size of the river and for
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the conditions of the river, but also for the exploitation of the river.
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I mean, it's just a really difficult fish to find.
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Yeah.
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You know, also not knowing much about these fish or anything of the sort.
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I'd always wondered that, like a lot of the photos that I see, at least of the main Congo
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river, like where it's, you know, the giant river is the backdrop of almost every one
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of those photos that seems to be the smoky haze in the background or some like ambient
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bloom of smoke.
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I'm like, what?
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What is that going on?
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Are they just constantly burning stuff?
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Or is it just a national sport of the Congo is to burn?
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It kind of adds to like this rustic mystique to the river, although I'm sure it's less
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romantic than that.
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No, there's a lot of that going on and you always see that haze and there's always this
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orangey type sky, you know, you'll never, you'll rarely see a blue skies and so forth.
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And it's mostly because of burning and so on.
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Even when you, when you fly over the Congo and when you fly, you know, over the central
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Africa or so, there's always this sort of smoky haze.
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Yeah.
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And then of course you've got that harmaton, which is the blowing of that Saharan sand,
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you know, into the sky and that gets carried over the ocean to eventually, you know, eventually
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to feed the Amazon forest with nutrients and things like that.
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So yeah, it's not your typical blue skies with puffy clouds and monkeys swimming, swinging
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from trees and, you know, like animal grazing on the banks.
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It's a tough, it's become a really tough place, you know, for, for animal and human alike
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to survive and to live.
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Yeah.
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So I feel like that encounter in where you were working when you, when you saw this guy
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Paul, that, that is an interesting part of your journey towards this fish because I would
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think, you know, they say never meet your heroes, not that he's your hero because they
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might let you down, but you were met with a level of discouragement, I would think at
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the very least that you expressed this interest in the fish and that you wanted to catch one
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on fly.
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And then here's the guy saying impossible, impossible.
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Now at that stage in your time as an angler, did you already have the fire in your eyes
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to be like, no, it is possible or, or were you kind of like let down to a point that
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somebody's, you know, making it sound like you shouldn't even waste your time.
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I mean, did you see past that?
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I never doubted that it was possible.
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I always, I knew in my heart that it was possible.
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Yeah.
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I wouldn't say that I did so self-assuredly, you know, I didn't have any reason to think
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that or so, but it was something I think that I just started envisioning to such an extent
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that there was just, it just, it had to be possible.
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You know, I almost, even if it wasn't possible, I was going to will it into being possible.
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Yeah.
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I mean, yeah.
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Well, therein lies the difference between you and I think so many people because, you
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know, that, that has, I think that is a big part of why I have become so fascinated in
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the species of fish, at least in my part of the world.
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Very few American anglers, if any, I don't know that I've seen any, maybe there's been
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a couple of Americans who've been over there and chased them, but I'm like, why, why not?
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I think there's this fear of failure that people get that keeps them from, I don't know, traveling
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outside and beyond what the experience of fishing is supposed to be.
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It's like, well, chances are you'll fail.
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So I'm going to stop right here and stay in the comfort zone of where I have assured catches.
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You know, I've often wondered about that.
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I've, you know, coming from Africa, being a fly fisherman and, and, and having been involved
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in developing a few fisheries in Africa, you know, not only for Goliath, tiger fish, but
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for tarpon and for normal tiger fish.
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And even when the seychelles, you know, we sort of, you know, came onto the scene, it
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was always difficult for us to attract American fishermen.
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It was always the biggest market, definitely our target market, but it was always difficult.
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And I think there are a few factors, you know, that, that, that, that play key, you know,
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one of which, one of which is the distance to travel.
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Yeah, I think I also think that, you know, American fishermen are just so spoiled.
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I mean, look at, look at all of the water that you have.
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Look at the sort of resources that you do have, you know, you've got tarpon in the Atlantic
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Ocean, you know, you've got bone fish abound, you've got permanent abound, you know, as
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soon as you move inland, you've got bass, you've got trout, you've got steelhead, you've
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got species of salmon, you've got alligator garfish.
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I mean, there's almost everything that you need to satisfy a lifetime of fishing you've
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got within the borders of the USA.
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And you know, you've also got a fantastic program like, you know, it's arguable whether
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you know, wildlife or fishing game, you know, in the US are doing, are always doing a great
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job, but they really did developing and in stocking places that, you know, never had
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fish before and so forth and opening up.
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And then of course you've got such a wide expanse.
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I think this is perhaps one of the reasons.
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And then I suppose, you know, geographically, you know, don't take this as criticism of
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Americans, but geographically, Americans are really, you know, interested in their own
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country and so forth.
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You know, I think it's a, you know, the sort of American pride and things like that is
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very good, you know, it's admired it, you know, and pledging allegiance to your flag
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and so forth.
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I mean, you know, and I suppose pledging allegiance to your fishing in your country
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almost, you know, whether it be, you know, subconscious or so.
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Yeah, I think there's, there's probably, there's definitely some, there's a lot of layers to
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unpack there.
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I think there's, there's probably some of that.
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I will say even for me, you know, we throw the term bucket list out there.
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I think maybe I'm an outlier.
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At least I consider myself that as I've, I've got much greater desire to leave the country
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and to go somewhere new because I like feeling vulnerable and stuff for some weird reason.
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Like, you know, I like going somewhere new and seeing things for myself because a lot
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of it too is as an American, if I say I want to go to the Congo.
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Well, I get met with a lot of people.
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Americans will think you're crazy.
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Yeah, it's dangerous.
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Everywhere I mentioned going is dangerous.
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It's dangerous.
319
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,520
It's dangerous.
320
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,520
And you know, that's part of it.
321
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,960
But even within this country, you mentioned alligator gar.
322
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,760
I've got a lot of history with alligator gar.
323
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,240
It's one of my favorite fish, fish for them pretty extensively.
324
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,240
But even here it was kind of like a taboo thing up until pretty recent times to even
325
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,240
one to go.
326
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,240
It's like, what are you doing?
327
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,240
Why would you want to fish for that thing?
328
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:46,160
And I'm like, am I, am I the only one here that thinks catching a fish over seven feet
329
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,840
long and 200 pounds with big giant teeth is appealing?
330
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:56,520
But there's also this just brand marketing type of sport fishing culture in, in our country
331
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:06,240
that's very much emphasizes the value of certain fish so that you can corral, you know, a base
332
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,320
of customers towards it.
333
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:09,320
I don't know.
334
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,440
It's a, we place value on certain types of fish.
335
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,200
And so people really want to occupy that time doing that.
336
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,920
And, you know, I feel that way too sometimes because I'm like, here I am traveling out
337
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,920
of the country for the last few years.
338
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,240
And I'm like, I feel kind of guilty that I haven't gone and caught a big tarpon on my
339
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,240
own.
340
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,240
I live in Florida.
341
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,760
They're right in my backyard.
342
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,680
Or I feel bad that I haven't gone to like Alaska and fish for like King salmon or musky or
343
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,680
pike.
344
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,280
I mean, here's all these amazing fish, right?
345
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,040
In my country, I should probably be going and catching them first.
346
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,040
But then at the same time, I'm like, you know, I feel like I better start chasing these other
347
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,000
things while I'm younger, fitter.
348
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,020
I don't know what the future will hold.
349
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:53,920
They already locked down the whole world a couple of years ago.
350
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,040
There's no telling if they're going to do that again in the future.
351
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,720
So I think it's better to front load my dream fish now.
352
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,440
And then later I'll just go around catching American stuff.
353
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,640
Interesting you say that because that's sort of the philosophy that I have been following,
354
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,440
you know, when it comes to fishing or traveling to countries, I mean, I've now fished and
355
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,840
guided in 51 countries.
356
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,360
Oh, wow.
357
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:23,600
And funny enough, the USA was my 51st country that I went to, you know, and I always thought
358
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,560
of, and I always sort of said to people, look, there are places in this world that are going
359
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:33,240
to disappear or there are places that are, you know, sort of going to change a lot.
360
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,640
And then there are places that are going to remain fairly stable.
361
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,040
And I'm my intention is to go and see the places that are that are that have the potential
362
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,760
of either disappearing or, you know, being discovered and being turned into a commercial
363
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
fishery or so.
364
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:55,600
So my ambition really is to go and find those those unexplored places first.
365
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,640
And last time I checked, there's even some wheelchair access to some of the pudding points
366
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,720
on the trout rivers in the US.
367
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,720
Yeah, right.
368
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,840
Yeah, that's your retirement.
369
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,360
You can you can fish some of those areas into retirement.
370
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:12,280
But yeah, when I look at something like a Goliath tiger fish, I'm like, I mean, I don't
371
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:18,520
know how much longer the fish is even going to be an attainable or viable target.
372
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,120
I think it's going to be a viable target for a very long time.
373
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:27,080
You know, it's just I think that the the places where you'll be able to go and target are
374
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,240
going to become fairly marginal.
375
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:36,800
If they're not marginal already, you know, the there's there's sort of, as I as I mentioned,
376
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,080
there's sort of unfettered or unprecedented, you know, exploitation of natural resources
377
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,080
happening along the way.
378
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,720
Here it is from mining, you know, the DRC, which which contains most of the Congo drainage
379
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:56,480
basin is ridden with all sorts of minerals and metals and things that are sought after
380
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,760
by the whole world.
381
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,040
And so there's and you know, and they don't have the sort of, you know, they're not as
382
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:09,560
a as a as a as a protection or as an environmental, you know, state, you know, they're not nearly
383
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,880
as advanced as some of the some of the countries that we get to deal with.
384
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,880
Yeah.
385
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,120
So, you know, when somebody wants to go in and mine and, you know, mud up a hole, silt
386
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,680
up a whole river, they let it happen.
387
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,760
If somebody wants to go in deforest in the area to make just charcoal for plain cooking
388
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:32,080
and burning and stuff, it happens, you know, the the the the the wild game meat trade,
389
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:38,920
you know, especially with with sort of expats from the Congo living in France is is alive
390
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,960
and well, you know, there's there's a lot of that smuggling and stuff going on.
391
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:50,840
So when or under the table, there really is a wholesale exploitation of of that whole
392
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,280
Congo drainage basin.
393
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Yeah.
394
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,240
And you know, there are three main countries that sort of, you know, have that drainage
395
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,920
basin and stuff, and that would be the Republic of Congo, the Central African Republic and
396
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,440
the DRC.
397
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,440
Yeah.
398
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:11,360
Well, that's that's what's weird to me, too, is that just on the other side of the river,
399
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:16,280
the the difference in I don't want to say culture, but I don't know if it's the political
400
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,560
climate or what it is from the DRC to what is it the the RC side from Brazzaville over
401
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,400
to Kinshasa.
402
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,680
I hear it's a totally different world that's right on the other side of the river from one
403
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,840
another.
404
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:35,000
But I'm what I'm I'm interested in like, so here you are a guy who I imagine by the time
405
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,400
you went to the Congo, you'd already done some travel prior to that.
406
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,080
I wouldn't think you would, you know, it would be a baptism by fire by your first time really
407
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,600
doing extensive travel being somewhere like that.
408
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,480
But at some point, your interest moved into motion.
409
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:50,760
Here's the fish you're interested in.
410
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:51,840
You're talking about it.
411
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,080
You're reading books about it.
412
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,080
You're thinking about it.
413
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,640
But at some point in time, you started formulating a game plan and gear started turning and you
414
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,120
launched the first ever campaign there for yourself.
415
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:05,120
What did that look like?
416
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,560
Where did where did you go?
417
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:08,560
What was the approach?
418
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,200
It was interesting, you know, it kind of fell in my lap.
419
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,480
You know, funny enough, as I said, I was always determined to do it.
420
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,960
And I always knew that I would do it.
421
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:24,080
It was a very strange thing, you know, like a calling like I knew it would happen.
422
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,080
I just didn't know that.
423
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,320
And I didn't actually spend that much time trying to make it happen other than getting
424
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,360
information and making people know of my ambition to do so.
425
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:39,440
Well, I finally came across a friend, Dirk Reicher.
426
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,760
And we were, he was working at a place where we did a fly fishing clinic for beginners
427
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480
and him and I started talking.
428
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,080
And he had read an article that I had written in a magazine, you know, about my ambition
429
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520
to catch the Goliath Tiger fishing.
430
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,840
And that's sort of how I kind of, I almost put out an advertisement saying, I want to
431
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,600
do it, you know, and I lived in brief wanting to do it.
432
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:08,000
And I knew that at some stage it was almost like, you know, dangling a worm out there
433
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,440
and knowing that I would get a bite.
434
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,000
Is that article still out there somewhere?
435
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,720
I would love to read that.
436
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:18,760
Um, we can try to track it down after the fact, but I think that's so cool that you're
437
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,760
captured.
438
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,560
It's a very interesting.
439
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,000
You're you captured your, your thoughts in that moment in time.
440
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,400
And it's something that you should go back tangibly and reread after the fact.
441
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,400
That's pretty neat.
442
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:36,520
It's actually, it's an interesting story about the article because I was in my, my
443
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:42,560
third year of university studying journalism and I was supposed to do an assignment as
444
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,440
a final assignment or the major assignment for the year, which was to get into, to write
445
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,080
an investigative journalism article.
446
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,560
And you know, I remember some of my, some of my peers wrote on like winter research to
447
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:02,760
how the hell's angels was, was involved in, you know, the drug trade stuff.
448
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800
And I was sitting around going, well, you know, I'd have to do it about something that
449
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,640
I'm really interested in.
450
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,880
So what I'm really interested in is the glycography.
451
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:18,800
So I wrote an article just about my ambition and investigated myself and my soul.
452
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,720
That's to be, where does this love and this passion and this wild idea of catching one
453
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,840
of my friends comes from, it was the only, only thing that I had ever, only assignment
454
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,280
I had ever failed in at university.
455
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,040
And I then decided, well, now I'm going to go and prove a point.
456
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,720
And so I went and had the article published.
457
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,600
And of all the people that had their articles, you know, handed in the articles and stuff
458
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,080
and got good marks for it, none of them had this published, but I had mine published and
459
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,400
I went to my lecturer and I said, well, what do you think of this?
460
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,400
Oh my gosh.
461
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,600
On what basis were you failed?
462
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,840
I guess if you're researching a topic, it was not an investigative journalism article
463
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,080
by the imagination.
464
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:08,760
It was almost a whimsical article about me as a little boy standing on a pier and the
465
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,560
Zambezi casting a spinner out and seeing this.
466
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Yeah.
467
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:18,600
Taking my whole life from a normal tiger fish now being absolutely mesmerized by this
468
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,800
goi-fi-fishing infatuated with catching it anyway, this article was read by Dirk Reicher.
469
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,840
We then said, listen, I think I've got an opportunity for us.
470
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,360
I'm also, you know, hell bent on catching these things.
471
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,600
And there's this company called Go Congo and they're on the concha-sa side and they have
472
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,240
an operation and we're going and I'd like you to come with me.
473
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:42,960
And I was like, okay, let's do it.
474
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,960
Yeah.
475
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,240
I mean, it was a hop skip and a jump, Dirk almost organized everything and we arrived
476
00:30:50,240 --> 00:31:00,960
in concha-sa in 2008 on the first official expedition to attempt to catch a goi-fi-fish
477
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:01,960
on fly.
478
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Yeah.
479
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,960
Yeah.
480
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:04,960
So that was it.
481
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:11,640
It was a very funny story because we had, you know, he was aiming at starting a sort
482
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,880
of an outfit out there, you know, to, you know, to fish for Goliath Tiger fishing.
483
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:22,360
And he also invited a famous South African fisherman called Henny Papenfus who made these
484
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,080
videos on fishing, not fly fishing, conventional fishing.
485
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:35,400
And Henny arrived at the airport with us, you know, and the DRC sort of only just becomes
486
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,960
stable enough for travel and so forth.
487
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,920
You know, they were marred by, you know, political violence and things of the sorts.
488
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,920
Yeah.
489
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,560
So here we arrive at the rivals' hall of the concha-sa airport at the time, which was,
490
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,800
you know, nothing compared to any arrival all you've ever seen before.
491
00:31:53,800 --> 00:32:01,080
And Henny put all of these rods into one of those bazooka rod carriers.
492
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,320
You know, the one that has bazooka written on it.
493
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,840
I have that one.
494
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:11,560
So he arrives with this thing in the DRC and the security guards look at this thing.
495
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,560
They thought it was a weapon.
496
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,840
They thought this guy had brought a bazooka.
497
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,840
Yeah.
498
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,600
He took the DRC.
499
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,600
And so, you know, Henny with his eyes, this big was carried off by the security personnel
500
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,600
in the DRC.
501
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,360
And, you know, that was his first experience of the DRC anyway.
502
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,360
We were fine.
503
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,760
You know, he showed them the fishing rods and we managed to carry.
504
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,200
Now, they said, you know, because I hear all these things about how every corner they're
505
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,840
looking for ways to kind of like shake you down, get a couple bucks off of you.
506
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,240
We're like, oh, you know, for a hundred dollar fee, you can have this tube back.
507
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,240
This is customary.
508
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:56,320
Like, look, there's something I think that, you know, and I have to be clear.
509
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,840
This is not what we do.
510
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:02,400
Our current practice in Africa is all above 100%.
511
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,960
So, you know, we're involved with big conservation agencies and so forth.
512
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:13,080
And there isn't a hint or a spec of, you know, bribery or corruption and stuff like that.
513
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,080
But I think it's important to explain to people how Africa works.
514
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:18,080
Right.
515
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:24,560
And that is that, you know, bribes or corruption as you see it is not how they see it.
516
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Yeah.
517
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:31,560
You know, if you've, you know, if you've taken up, you know, your family and the influence
518
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,320
of your family or so will sometimes enable you to take up position as a police officer.
519
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,360
They'll often pay quite a bit of money to make you a police officer, to get you into
520
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:41,360
the police force.
521
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,440
And after that, the expectation is, is that job is going to start paying.
522
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,280
And trust me, the salary of their job is not going to be anything like that.
523
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,760
I mean, it is, it's not by no means do I condone it.
524
00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,240
But I think that people often make a really big deal about the sort of greasing of palms
525
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,760
and stuff like that in Africa, which is, which is really just how Africa works.
526
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:06,760
Right.
527
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,480
In many cases, it's just how it works.
528
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:09,760
Everybody wants his cut.
529
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,760
Right.
530
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,400
So, you know, if you're, if you're a tourist and you arrive in Africa and, you know, and
531
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,160
you've got, you've got money and stuff.
532
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,440
I mean, obviously they want some of that money.
533
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,440
Right.
534
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,640
They're, you're there to do something.
535
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,640
You've budgeted for something.
536
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:28,000
Let's say you're a film crew or let's say you're a fisherman or something like that.
537
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,240
You know, I mean, you know, it's almost like paying somebody, you know, to drive you in
538
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:37,600
a taxi, you know, somebody to organize you for your permission to do something or something
539
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,680
like that, you know, or somebody that offers you, you know, they often have to, you have
540
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,000
to apply for a license to do something and it's going to take a month for you to get
541
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,000
this license.
542
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,960
No, there's actually no, no period of time that, that, that anybody can tell you that
543
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,080
it will take to do this.
544
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,000
But there's somebody there saying, Hey, listen, I can get it done quicker.
545
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:57,920
Right.
546
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:06,360
So, you know, I think that we're, we're sometimes jumping to pointing fingers and corruption
547
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,360
and listen to it too quickly in Africa.
548
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,600
I don't think that we quite understand Africa.
549
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,600
Yeah.
550
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,520
Well, I think that's a way better perspective to have of it.
551
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,040
I'm actually glad you mentioned that.
552
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,000
I, I think that's one of the worst mistakes.
553
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,880
I'm sure a lot of Americans do it, especially when we come from a place that's, you know,
554
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,600
restructured a certain sort of way and, but I never want to show up at somebody else's,
555
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:36,280
you know, country, much less somebody else's house and project my customs and my set of
556
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:43,000
values upon them, you know, basically measure the way that I live my life upon someone else's
557
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,280
way of life, especially in their house.
558
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,600
So, you know, I think it's one of those kind of humorous things, if anything.
559
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:51,600
Yeah.
560
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:57,360
Well, it was explained to me, you know, when we went into the Republic of Congo to, to
561
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,840
look for giant tarpon, you know, the guy that helped us there, he explained it to us very
562
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,840
nicely.
563
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,480
He said, listen, everybody just wants his piece, you know, mean look around you, you
564
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,840
know, and we looked around us.
565
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,680
I mean, it was, it was slightly derelict, you know, I mean, you know, there's no service
566
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,680
delivery.
567
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,000
Every house that needs power has a generator outside.
568
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,440
You have to go and get your own diesel.
569
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,320
You have to bring your own water, et cetera.
570
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,680
There's no infrastructure or anything like that.
571
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,520
Nobody's providing anybody with anything.
572
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:25,520
Yeah.
573
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,520
But that was very opportunistic person.
574
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,040
So if you've got the ability or the power to help somebody, then you expect something
575
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
in return.
576
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:38,880
And that's it, you know, so it's a fair trade to some.
577
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,280
But like I said, I don't condone any sort of corruption.
578
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,240
Because, you know, on a much higher scale, you know, when big mining companies try, you
579
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,520
know, come in and they, you know, and they decimate the land for minerals and so forth,
580
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,760
where, you know, there should have been more care taken for conservation.
581
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,120
That's when it goes, you know, a little bit too far.
582
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,120
Yeah, right.
583
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:02,480
Like I said, our current practice in the Central African Republic is completely above board
584
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,000
and everything's done by the book, but it's, it's tedious and it's hard work.
585
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,240
And you know, it sometimes looks like nothing's going to get done because, you know, we're
586
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:19,360
going, basically we walk, we're walking the line, you know, to such an extent that, you
587
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,840
know, it would have been much easier the other way, but we've chosen the hard way.
588
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,400
And I'll tell you, it can be soul destroying sometimes to try and get something pushed
589
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,520
over the line and just being pushed to the back of the line again.
590
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:33,520
Yeah.
591
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,800
Well, showing up there with fishing rods, but I'm sure you got some interesting looks
592
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:38,800
there.
593
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,800
It's like, what in the world?
594
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:46,600
But also, you know, you're going to kind of foreign grounds in more ways than one, but
595
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:47,880
you show up at the river.
596
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:54,600
Now, is this a place where there are locals who have local knowledge of the river and the
597
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,600
species of fish?
598
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,240
Or is that fish even a kind of a foreign concept to the people that live there?
599
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,080
I mean, what, what is your source of direction for where you even going to begin trying to
600
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,080
catch one?
601
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Look, you know, by this time, this, you know, the the go Kongo outfit had had actually hosted
602
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,000
a few, you know, fishermen.
603
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:22,120
And, and so there was definitely an awareness by the locals that, you know, we were there
604
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,200
to fish and that we were looking for the Goliath.
605
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,600
And you know, they know it as a banger.
606
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:28,600
Yeah.
607
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:34,960
And, you know, on our first trip, you know, we went there, we first we went into Kinshasa
608
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,240
from Kinshasa, where you had to take a taxi up to Maluku Harbor, which was above the Kinshasa
609
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:41,240
Rapids.
610
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,240
And from Maluku Harbor, we had to travel about 100 kilometers north to where the Black River
611
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:46,240
came in.
612
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:51,080
And it was a famous, the famous hunting or Goliath hunting grounds of a guy by the name
613
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,880
of Douglas Dan.
614
00:38:52,880 --> 00:39:00,200
And Douglas Dan in the 60s and 70s was this, this guy, this guy from Belgium that he basically
615
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,840
pioneered Goliath, Goliath fishing.
616
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,280
Yes, I mean, this guy was responsible for most of the IGFA records and so forth.
617
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,920
They had a Goliath Tiger Club and he's got this, this famous book called Goliath, the
618
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,920
biggest tiger fish in the world.
619
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Yeah.
620
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,440
I'm trying to get my hands on that book.
621
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,840
Yeah, it's a difficult book to find.
622
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:26,400
But, but so, so, so this was his form.
623
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,280
These were his former stomping grounds.
624
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:33,920
And so we arrived there and the locals had definitely knowledge of the fact that that's
625
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:34,920
what we were there to do.
626
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:41,800
And, you know, we had to go into the nearby town and we were, you know, we were on a big
627
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,240
live aboard boat with virtually no amenities.
628
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:50,320
I mean, you know, I mean, I had to tell you the sort of conditions we were living in that
629
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:51,320
trip.
630
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,840
It was quite vulgar to be honest.
631
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,880
We had to go into the nearby town and first ask permission from the chief to come and
632
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,000
fish for these fish and then get his blessing.
633
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:08,440
And you have to understand about these guys is they all had to dabble in some fishing
634
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,120
or so at some stage, you know, as I said, there's very little wildlife or so left in
635
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,120
it.
636
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,320
The river, the biggest source of protein is from fish out of the river.
637
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:19,320
So many of them.
638
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:26,680
And, you know, when we sat with the chief, he actually mentioned something that to this
639
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:35,400
day rings true now, whether he knew this on this fish or what it was, but he sat and our
640
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,200
interpreters said basically that the chief is saying, yes, we can come and fish and so
641
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:46,120
forth, but that we must remember that the Goliath tiger fish or the Umbengar has got
642
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,880
its own feeding patterns and behaviors.
643
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:55,480
It's got times that it feeds and it's got times that it rests, you know, and you sort
644
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,880
of sit and you listen to this old guy and you kind of go, yeah, whatever, man, just
645
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,160
give me the permission to go fishing.
646
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,160
I want to go fishing.
647
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,680
What fish is really going to adhere to these strange sort of feeding times that you're
648
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000
talking about.
649
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,600
But it became very apparent to us that there were times on that river when everything was
650
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,640
dead quiet and nothing was happening.
651
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:20,640
And then suddenly you would start seeing Goliath tiger fish either break the surface or roll
652
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,120
and stuff for a short period of time and then stop again.
653
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,040
And this time went by.
654
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:35,040
This has also become way more apparent to me in fishing in the Chinko River and in fishing
655
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:41,240
for these fish elsewhere is that they, I don't know how to explain it.
656
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,400
I mean, we can we could dig down into that maybe at a later stage.
657
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:52,120
You know, once we progress more about what we've learned about this fish, but I believe
658
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,920
that this fish is unlike any other fish in how it feeds and when it chooses to feeds and
659
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,640
its ability to feed.
660
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,240
I think that they're extremely effective predators.
661
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:11,760
We seem to think that they are these gluttonous killing machines with these vampire like interlocking
662
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,360
fangs and they just swim and just trump their way through whatever they want to eat and so
663
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,360
forth.
664
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,280
But it turns out that it's definitely not like that.
665
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,120
And it's well documented in Douglas Dan's books.
666
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,480
And it was well documented afterwards is that, you know, the guys that fish for these things
667
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:36,400
with live bait will often have the live bait panic and show signs of a predator being around
668
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:43,840
or show signs of distress for some time before the Goliath strikes it.
669
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:50,280
It means that this fish really does seem to size up its prey.
670
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,440
And what you often find is that, you know, a Goliath will hit its prey behind the pictorial
671
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,320
and dorsal fins almost every time.
672
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,080
Even when you dissect them and you find pieces of fish and stuff in them, you'll see, you
673
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,680
know, the whole fish, you can put the fish together from behind its pictorial and dorsal
674
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,000
fins and from its front.
675
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:17,160
And interesting, you know, a lot of this fish's food, you know, have, you know, barbed spines
676
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,080
in their pictorial and dorsal fins.
677
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,640
And the Goliath definitely tries to avoid that.
678
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,880
And so what he'll do is, you know, if he finds his prey, he'll size it up, he'll swim around
679
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,440
it, look at it and then strike it, strike it pictorial dorsal fins first, and then he'll
680
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,280
come around and he'll likely take the rest.
681
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:41,840
And so we, and we proved it a few times, you know, through either, you know, finding a
682
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,960
Goliath, dead Goliath or something like that, dissecting it and finding how its prey has
683
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,160
been chopped up like that and so forth.
684
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:54,520
And you'll also see if there's some, you know, I'm so infatuated with these fish.
685
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,280
I sometimes watch videos of people that have them in aquariums.
686
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,880
Yeah, and I literally, when it's feeding time, see how this Goliath feeds and stuff.
687
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,880
And they do it the same way every time.
688
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,800
And they sort of grab the fish on its back, behind pictorial and dorsal fins first, shake
689
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,920
it, sever it, and then come back for the rest, you know.
690
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:22,120
And it's sort of, you know, so, you know, that and, you know, obviously what this, you
691
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,680
know, what the, what the chief of the village said about these things having feeding times
692
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,120
and how selective they are of their prey and how they inspect their prey.
693
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,040
That definitely tells us we're dealing with a, with a very, very different animal, you
694
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:41,240
know, in the sense that it's quite selective and it's quite picky over what it eats actually.
695
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:42,240
Yeah.
696
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:47,560
Now, were you trying to catch them with a fly right off the bat or was your first objective,
697
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:54,560
I just want to catch one by any means just to, you know, get my hands on the fish or
698
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,840
was it all about trying to get one on the fly right off the bat?
699
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,520
I mean, your first time out there, is it?
700
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,520
Is there any other way?
701
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:02,520
Yeah.
702
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,400
So you're right.
703
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,000
It's, it's fly or nothing.
704
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,000
I love it.
705
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,440
I love the commitment to stay in that.
706
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Was it successful?
707
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,000
I guess that's the ultimate question.
708
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,880
Was that first attempt success?
709
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:21,040
I guess success can be measured in a lot of different ways, but look, we were definitely
710
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,480
up against the odds, you know, or, you know, we got onto these boats and stuff and saw how
711
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,480
vast this river was.
712
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:26,480
Yeah.
713
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:31,000
With the fish find or anything and just, you know, this chocolate brown water, you know,
714
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,920
shunting down this, this river canal and all of these boats traversing there and, and, and,
715
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:43,800
and so it was definitely, we had our work cut out for us, but we, we actually managed to
716
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,120
get quite a few strikes from Goliaths, case full strikes on fly.
717
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:55,120
In fact, more so than what our compatriots, you know, fishing with bait did.
718
00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:01,360
We would come back and having literally made, I don't know, 500 to 1000 casts that day,
719
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,520
we might have gotten three or four strikes from Goliaths and stuff, very, very difficult
720
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,120
to, to hook them obviously, as you know.
721
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,720
And you know, the other guys would sometimes come back having, having caught nothing or
722
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:16,040
having achieved nothing, you know.
723
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,880
And so, so there was definitely, you know, there was a way of enticing these fish.
724
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:21,880
All right.
725
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,200
But, you know, we didn't manage to get any of them stick.
726
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,760
There's a heartbreaking video online of me hooking the first one.
727
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:30,760
Yeah.
728
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:35,040
And then losing it.
729
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:41,280
And, and so we sort of, you know, we, you know, it was at that point in time that we
730
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,520
had to start looking at, you know, the type of hooks that we were using and so forth.
731
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:52,360
And it turns out that, that this Goliath and the lining in its mouth is actually quite
732
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:57,040
interesting, interestingly is quite soft, you know, whereas you would normally try and
733
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,000
at least, you know, if you can't, because I mean, their, their mouths are just bone.
734
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Right.
735
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,200
I mean, there's no, there's no way you're going to drive a hook through the bone of that
736
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,200
thing.
737
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,800
You've got to find somewhere where this hook can purchase.
738
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,800
But we did find that sort of the flesh in their mouths, you know, it's very soft.
739
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:19,720
And I think it's sort of another adaptation for when they do make a mistake.
740
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,560
And let's say they get one of those barbed spines, you know, stuck in their, in the flesh
741
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:27,200
of their mouths, that they can, you know, open their mouths, shake their heads and actually
742
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:28,960
rid themselves of those spines.
743
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:29,960
Okay.
744
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:30,960
That makes sense.
745
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:37,120
So, so your attempt to, to just hook, let's say the lining of that fish's mouth and side
746
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:42,040
and then generally keep it on and fight it, you know, and stuff was, it was also not working
747
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:50,560
and so, so, so we resorted to a very specific hook that actually had a bit of flex in its
748
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,720
shank and they didn't have a curved tip, but at a straight tip, it was a perfect round
749
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:55,720
J-Bend hook.
750
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:59,160
In fact, it was an owner hook, like a 5-0 worm round.
751
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,160
Yeah.
752
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:05,560
And this sort of found purchase in the, in the only place where you could really penetrate
753
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,320
a hook was in the, in the Goliath skill plate.
754
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,520
That hook can go through its skill plate, you know, in between and then of course in its
755
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,040
skill rakes and stuff, if you manage to get a hook up in there and then occasionally in
756
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,200
the corner of its mouth, there's, there's almost just the right sort of structure for
757
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:29,280
you to be able to hook a fish, but, but the hook type became sort of key to our success.
758
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,920
And you know, once we switched to that hook type and, and tied our flies that we had gotten
759
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,520
sort of we, we developed, you know, we went from, we started off by fishing, you know,
760
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:45,840
these giant flies on 15 weight rods with rattles and all sorts of things in there, 700 grain
761
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,720
shooting head, you know, far sinking lines, you're fishing 10 weights with intermediate
762
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:54,440
lines quite close to the surface with much smaller baitfish backings and things like
763
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,440
that.
764
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,160
And, and that's how we sort of got our most success.
765
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,920
And then finally, you know, the hook was the answer, the using the right hook was definitely
766
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:02,920
the key.
767
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,160
And that's when Dirk, the guy that had organized the trip, you know, he managed to land the
768
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,440
first Goliath officially ever caught on fly.
769
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,160
Oh, wow.
770
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,400
And do you know, it's funny enough, people, people, you know, say to me, oh, weren't you
771
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,360
disappointed, you know, that it wasn't you because it was your passion, et cetera.
772
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:28,400
And I think that, that there in, I think people miss, miss the point or they've sort of completely
773
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,880
missed what it is that I want to do.
774
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,600
And I don't think it's an ego thing or anything like that.
775
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,120
I think it's an awareness thing.
776
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,280
I said that we can do it.
777
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:39,760
I said that this can be done.
778
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:41,080
I knew it could be done.
779
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,560
It had to be done, right?
780
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,680
And it wasn't about who did it.
781
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,760
It was just proving that it could be done.
782
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:53,480
And so, so for me, I'm definitely, I think that it was well deserved of Dirk, you know,
783
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,200
he put the whole trip together, et cetera, and you know, and he goes down as the guy in
784
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,800
history that got the first one ever on fly.
785
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,320
And I was very happy about that, you know.
786
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,320
Yeah.
787
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,400
I think anytime you get a group of people that goes off to do something that ambitious,
788
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:15,320
it's, it's, it's a collective effort on everyone's behalf, whether it be, I mean, because I'm
789
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,600
wondering too, the way that you're fishing, are y'all, that's such an enormous river.
790
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,320
Are you just, are you just casting and casting and casting blind or?
791
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,840
Cast off the cast off.
792
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,840
Okay.
793
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,200
I don't know if you're looking for some sort of sign on top of the water, whether it be
794
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:37,440
baitfish shimmering, indicating something's below or do they roll like, I think I've read
795
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,440
or heard you mentioned something about the roll.
796
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:40,440
Yeah.
797
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,000
Where we are in the Chinko, they roll, what we saw in the main congos that they often
798
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,480
broke the surface.
799
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,880
And I think that they break the surface from a, you know, they'll, they'll leap clean,
800
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,040
you know, you know, into the air and break the surface.
801
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,720
And I think that's quite often on an attack of something.
802
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:56,720
Yeah.
803
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:03,880
Well, I mean, that could I, I'll tell you what, you've never, ever seen a fish move
804
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:04,880
like this.
805
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,240
There's no other fish that can move like a delight.
806
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:13,240
I can, you know, I've caught Barracuda, I've caught partner, I've caught GTs, I, you
807
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:17,680
are who offshore Marlin selfish, the works.
808
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:25,120
Nothing moves like this fish, you know, the way the speed at which they can, they can,
809
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:32,080
they can attack something, the, the way that they can turn in the attack and the speed.
810
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,880
I mean, it is, it's unparalleled, you never, and I think that sometimes, you know, if
811
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,640
they hit something quite close to this, because they do hunt quite close to the surface sometimes.
812
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:42,640
Yeah.
813
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,360
When they hit something there, they follow through, you know, it, you know, it's just
814
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,000
so that, you know, they'll, they'll break the surface with something or they'll, if
815
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,520
they've missed something, you know, they'll break the surface.
816
00:51:54,520 --> 00:52:01,040
You know, where we are now, you know, fast forward, you know, a decade or more, you know,
817
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,040
on the, on the Chinko River, we often see them rolling.
818
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:11,560
And, you know, I mean, I believe it to be feeding behavior, you know, I mean, some people
819
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:17,880
have, have compared them to the Dorado and Bolivia that roll for, you know, no apparent
820
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,800
feeding behavior or anything of the sorts.
821
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:25,640
And, you know, I mean, it's definitely not to gulp air or anything of the sorts because
822
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,320
the place where we find them are rolling the most is right below a quite a thunderous shoot.
823
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,880
So, I mean, the water is well oxygenated and so forth.
824
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:41,920
So, so, you know, I mean, I'm 80% satisfied that the fish roll because of feeding behavior,
825
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,160
you know, and depending on their prey sorts, but, you know, not everybody's convinced,
826
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,240
you know, as to, as to why they roll.
827
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:53,800
Yeah, we saw them break the surface quite often and when you were asking about where
828
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,080
we were fishing for them, it was funny because, you know, we were fishing where the Black
829
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,000
River flowed into the main Congo.
830
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,000
And the whole Black River having, you know, coming from a jungle that's quite tan and
831
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:11,120
stained, the water's slightly cooler, the whole Black River disappears under the Congo.
832
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:17,680
And then you'll often see, you know, 400, 600 yards downstream, you'll literally hear
833
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:23,520
this boil, this, like that, and you'll look down on this, just in the middle of nowhere,
834
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:28,760
this water that was channeled under the main Congo boils up, this Black Boil of water and
835
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,560
then just disappears again.
836
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:31,560
That's interesting.
837
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:38,120
So, the sort of the flow and the currents and things that happen in a body of water
838
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,360
that's this big are just mind-blowing.
839
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,800
You don't understand, you don't know where to start looking.
840
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:53,760
And funny enough, I hooked my fish, you know, right next to the edge, you know, along, you
841
00:53:53,760 --> 00:54:00,960
know, where there was some bull rushes or some high synth and stuff going that it had
842
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,560
made quite a bit of an undercut bank.
843
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,720
And I was fishing along that bank when I hooked my fish.
844
00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:09,480
I was actually trying for something completely different, you know, we'd be fishing for,
845
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:14,840
you know, 10 or 11 days, making 500 to 1000 casts a day with, you know, only a few strikes
846
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:15,840
a day.
847
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,240
And you know, you eventually you say like, what else is there?
848
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:22,360
It's just, you know, trying some, like, to lobby a therapy or something.
849
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,760
Just something on the line.
850
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:27,760
And funny enough, I hooked a fish there.
851
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,760
So, they're quite often found, you know, and that was the first instance of it, but they're
852
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:40,200
quite often found where you would least expect to find them, you know.
853
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,360
So, yeah, they're, they dwell where they want.
854
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,800
I mean, they're the kings of the river, right?
855
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,560
I mean, they, yeah.
856
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:55,240
Well, so then, I mean, at the very least, there was some validation that yes, they can't,
857
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:59,120
you kind of knew they could be caught on fly, but then you witnessed them, you and you yourself
858
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,120
hooked them on fly.
859
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:08,040
Sorry, you looking to return to the same place over and over until you get it done or did
860
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:14,400
your mind immediately go into, let's start looking at tributaries, other places.
861
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:15,760
Yeah, no, no.
862
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:21,560
Look after that, we just, I just realized that, you know, we had to find sort of, you
863
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:27,960
know, it was, it was heartbreaking seeing what was happening in the convo and stuff.
864
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:33,320
And you know, also, you know, I mean, I don't know, I really like releasing my fish.
865
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:38,120
And you know, the expectation was always to, you know, like of the locals as well as to
866
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:39,200
like to kill the fish and so forth.
867
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,760
And I mean, you know, we refused.
868
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:48,260
We released our fish and see, we just not going to go that way.
869
00:55:48,260 --> 00:55:55,480
And so, I sort of realized that we were going to have to find a better place to do it, you
870
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,480
know, especially on fly.
871
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:01,360
We're going to have to find the sort of, you know, I explained it as finding like the
872
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:05,040
Shangri-La of the Goliath Tiger fish.
873
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:12,480
We're to find a smaller tributary of the Congo that had clearer water and that was, that
874
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,240
had, that was uninhabited.
875
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:18,880
Oh, that didn't have the same sort of human pressure on it, right?
876
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,760
You know, the sort of the place that the big black hole somewhere in Africa where the devil
877
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,640
deals the Goliath Tiger fish like asian and spades into the river to, you know, terrify
878
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,160
man and fish alike, right?
879
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:36,160
This was the sort of the epicenter of the Goliath, you know, the, so, so I knew that
880
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:43,040
that's, that's what we needed in order to, to take this one step further to sort of,
881
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,480
to sort of be able to say, look, we can go here and we can go and try.
882
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,080
Like there's a, there's a valid place to go and try.
883
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:50,080
Yeah.
884
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,160
What is the search process there?
885
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:57,880
Just looking for, for creeks and rivers that connect directly to the main Congo river or
886
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:03,160
use a broad network of context that you have and through.
887
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:10,600
That's, that's, that's opened a completely, you know, new can of worms in the sense that,
888
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:16,640
you know, you know, ultimately this fish is the size it is because of the river system
889
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:17,640
that it's in.
890
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:18,640
Right?
891
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,400
I mean, you look at, for instance, how your alligator guards are from your Mississippi
892
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:22,400
River system.
893
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:23,400
Am I right?
894
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:29,520
You look at how your giant are from your Amazonian river basin and, you know, the giant
895
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:34,280
mcconk catfish is from the mcconk river, all of these giant rivers breed giant fish
896
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:38,280
or inhabited by giant fish.
897
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:45,600
And when you start looking into their tributaries and so forth, it's almost by reason or by
898
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,440
deduction, you know, not somewhere where you're going to find them.
899
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:52,960
You know, they, they want to be in that main big body of water and so forth.
900
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:59,440
And so, you know, I started, you know, then I started sort of asking around even more
901
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,760
and saying like, this is what I'm looking for.
902
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,600
You know, and then anybody with sort of any knowledge of the concocted me and said to
903
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,920
me, look, I mean, you may have succeeded in catching one Goliath on fly, but now you're
904
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,080
looking for something that doesn't exist.
905
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,080
Yeah.
906
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:20,760
Now, like for sure, we can tell you categorically that what you're looking for does not exist.
907
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,440
For one, there's no uninhabited river in the Congo.
908
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:30,360
And I mean, I would meet with guys, I would, you know, I would be at social events or parties
909
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,200
or wherever in a club, in a, on a beach, whatever.
910
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,120
And as soon as I heard that somebody was working in the Congo or the DRC or anything like that,
911
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:38,640
I immediately said, like, well, what do you do there?
912
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:42,680
I mean, inevitably one of them was a miner and I said, listen, do you have a river where
913
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:43,680
your mine is?
914
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:44,680
And they go, yeah.
915
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:45,680
And I said, like, tell me about this river.
916
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,280
And they go, this is what it's like.
917
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:48,280
And this is what it's like.
918
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,280
And I say, like, and all they can I tied your fish in there.
919
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:54,200
And nobody like, you know, right.
920
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:58,560
And they said, and also by the way, those mines, you know, they're just blowing out those rivers
921
00:58:58,560 --> 00:58:59,560
and stuff.
922
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,880
You know, you said, I mean, there's so many people on these rivers and things.
923
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:10,880
And so I was sort of, yeah, I don't know, you know, it's the second largest river basin
924
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:11,880
in the world.
925
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:18,720
But somehow I sort of, I wasn't sure, you know, but I sort of, I was satisfied that
926
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,600
it's been proven that this fish could be caught.
927
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:25,080
Look, I mean, you know, going to the Congo is quite an emotional journey.
928
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:29,560
There's something that happens in the continent and the center of this continent and stuff
929
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:30,560
that really does.
930
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:36,640
You know, if you ever read that book, Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, and if you
931
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:41,560
go to the Congo, you, you sort of experienced that.
932
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:47,960
There's a, I don't know what it is, you know, like whether it's a weird, you know, continental
933
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:53,960
feng shui or something that just kind of throw you off, but your dreams become so vivid,
934
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,000
your, the way you look at things and everything, you're never quite at rest.
935
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,880
You're never comfortable in that place.
936
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:09,720
And, you know, it's, it's, it's quite a soul harassing experience going into the Congo
937
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:10,720
for some reason.
938
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,000
It just, it just has this effect on you.
939
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:20,240
And so I was, I was sort of, I was tentative, you know, I still, I wanted to find a place
940
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:25,280
like this, but I was tentative and, and in, in, in, in like just, you know, packing my
941
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,680
bags and following the first lead.
942
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:28,680
Yeah.
943
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:36,600
But, you know, time went by and, and that's when, when a friend of mine that knew about
944
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,360
my infatuation, so, you know, I had this friend that we fished all around the world
945
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,440
together, you know, whether it was in the Galapagos for Stripe Marlin or whether it was
946
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,600
Bolivia and Jungle for Gerardo and stuff.
947
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,760
And we went around the whole world fishing together.
948
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:49,760
Yeah.
949
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:57,320
And, and he called me up and he said, Hey, by the way, I'm going hunting.
950
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,360
I'm going into the Central African Republic to go hunting.
951
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:07,320
And the guy there, the pH, the professional hunter, a guide, said to me, look, bring your
952
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,440
rod because I know you like fishing.
953
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:16,480
So we, because we have Goliath tiger fish in the river, in a small river that flows
954
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,600
clear in an area.
955
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,920
And I said to him, listen, but give me this person's details.
956
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:24,920
Give me this guy's details.
957
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,560
So he gave me the details.
958
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,040
And so this was, you know, for like 2008, we, we, you know, we came back from the DRC
959
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,560
and this was in 2013.
960
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:34,560
Right.
961
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,280
So about five years later.
962
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:44,280
And so I wrote to this guy and his name is Eric, Eric Maraj.
963
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:51,120
And you know, he was a, he's a Swedish national, but he was a, he's born Central African, lived
964
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:52,120
there all of his life.
965
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:57,400
His father was a famous Central African that went around drilling wells for people around
966
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:58,400
Central Africa.
967
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,760
And so forth and they'd settled in Bangui.
968
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:07,400
They were hunters and they were running these hunts into the Chinco National Park.
969
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:12,960
They'd actually, I think it obtained the concession of the park.
970
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,880
And I wrote to him and I said, hi Eric, you know, it's Francois, I'm a, I'm a fisherman.
971
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,960
And I believe that you have the most difficult fish in the world to catch, you know, in your
972
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:24,960
rivers.
973
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,080
I believe your rivers flow clear and that there's no people on that river.
974
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:37,200
And he wrote back, you know, saying, hi Francois Eric, you know, I'm not a fisherman, I'm a
975
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:42,600
hunter, but in my opinion, the Goliath Tigerfish is actually quite an easy fish to catch.
976
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,600
Oh, geez.
977
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:48,520
You know, and, you know, we use them as a food source in the camp.
978
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:54,960
And, and, you know, and, and by the way, that area that you're talking about that river,
979
01:02:54,960 --> 01:03:02,200
I can tell you that there's no man that lives there and that it flows clear in the dry season.
980
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:08,080
And that when I fly over that river in the dry season and I look down, I see big silver
981
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:09,560
fish from the air.
982
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:13,120
Oh my goodness.
983
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,120
And so that was it.
984
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:16,960
Do you have any like reservations?
985
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,920
I've become so skeptical that people, other people, especially non anglers ability to
986
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:28,680
identify fish properly because here, you know, if I, in Florida, for example, I'll have people
987
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,040
tell me, Oh, we caught some alligator gar last week.
988
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,440
And I'm like, well, no, you didn't because they don't live here.
989
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,200
Or I'm like, you know, have you seen any alligator gar?
990
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,360
Oh yeah, there's some right in this creek right down the road.
991
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:44,240
I'm like, no, that's something that's the smaller cousins.
992
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:51,160
Like constantly people misidentifying or exaggerating or, or getting a story wrong
993
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:57,480
or, you know, making up these big tales of giant Volkswagen size catfish that live below
994
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:58,640
the dam.
995
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:08,000
So did you have any concern that maybe there was, um, you know, because I would be thinking
996
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:13,920
that that's probably just the regular smaller cousin, the striped by Tautus or whatever
997
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,920
they're called.
998
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:23,680
You know, I should have probably been more suspicious and, you know, as, um, because
999
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,040
yes, there are people that make that mistake, they especially make that mistake with the
1000
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:32,400
Tanzanian tiger fish that, you know, quite a few people have branded wrongly as a Goliath
1001
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:33,400
tiger fish.
1002
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:38,360
And, you know, and I think they do so often just to get hits or likes or, you know, to
1003
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,280
to their Instagram or something of sorts.
1004
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:47,560
But, um, I probably should have been more suspicious, but I don't know.
1005
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,000
I don't know why.
1006
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:55,560
You know, once again, it was sort of this fish and I have shared this, this very strange
1007
01:04:55,560 --> 01:05:00,280
relationship in the sense that every time I think that I'm done with it, you know, that
1008
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,080
I've had enough of it or so.
1009
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,080
And I didn't think so after the DRC.
1010
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,760
You know, I mean, I was still infatuated with it, but I was done with it.
1011
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,360
That the DRC trip was a tough trip.
1012
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:11,360
Yeah.
1013
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:16,960
And, um, this, this, this fish just finds me again, you know, and it haunts me.
1014
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:22,880
I don't know what it is, you know, we're, we're intertwined for some reason.
1015
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:24,000
And I just, I knew it.
1016
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:32,600
I knew that this had to be the place, you know, and so, uh, and so yeah, I hardly even
1017
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:38,200
asked them any more questions or so, you know, I think that then the biggest question was
1018
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,560
immediately was, well, now is it safe to go?
1019
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,440
Because, I mean, at that point in time, the Central African Republic was still embroiled
1020
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,880
in a, in, in a, in basically a, like a religious war.
1021
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:53,280
Like it was a failed state.
1022
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,160
There was a coup on the government.
1023
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:01,400
And, um, and, uh, you know, there was, there was actually an incident in the battle of
1024
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:06,400
Bangui where a whole bunch of South African soldiers that were sent, you know, up to,
1025
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:10,560
to help or to aid the current government, you know, that they were all killed in an
1026
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,960
ambush and stuff in the, in the capital and so forth.
1027
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,160
So then it became a matter of really, you know, was it safe?
1028
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:19,160
Could I go?
1029
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:30,280
You know, um, but, but for some reason I, I, I, I didn't even consider not going.
1030
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:35,560
I just had to go after the words that gave, I just believed them.
1031
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,640
And I just said, like, I have to, have to go, you know, I have to go and check this
1032
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:40,640
out.
1033
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,320
So yeah, people thought I was crazy.
1034
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:50,120
Um, is it true that I think I actually wrote this down that, uh, or maybe it was before
1035
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:57,320
setting up logistics of a, of a, of a pro of a program down there later on, down the
1036
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:01,640
fact that I read it at some point in time while you're either going for the first time
1037
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:09,040
or maybe setting up, um, you know, plans for, for future camps or expeditions to be launched
1038
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:15,280
that two journalists got, uh, got killed somewhere in that area.
1039
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:16,800
Yes.
1040
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,360
They, they did.
1041
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:26,560
Um, but that's not, yeah, that was maybe my timeline is off, but I saw something while
1042
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,280
reading the latest stage.
1043
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:29,280
I mean, okay.
1044
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,720
You know, that's not really something that I'd like to comment about.
1045
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,480
Um, I think that those guys were a bit stupid.
1046
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:37,480
Yeah.
1047
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:45,200
You know, there was a, there was a known danger and they went unaccompanied, um, after a curfew,
1048
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:51,000
um, into a known dangerous area and, and, and got killed.
1049
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:58,440
Um, and so, you know, it's the same as anybody that would go surfing in a river mouth at
1050
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:00,800
night where there are bull sharks.
1051
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:01,800
Right.
1052
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:02,800
Yeah.
1053
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:03,800
Now suddenly surfing is dangerous.
1054
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:08,840
You know, I mean, just don't be stupid.
1055
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:09,840
Right.
1056
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,920
There are still places in the US where you also, you're not going to go after dark alone
1057
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:15,920
unaccompanied.
1058
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:16,920
Yeah.
1059
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:19,440
You understand a very good chance of either being attacked.
1060
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:20,440
Oh, a hundred percent.
1061
01:08:20,440 --> 01:08:26,800
I was actually, I was actually just mentioning that to a, to a previous guest who's similar
1062
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:32,480
travels, uh, where I was like, there's places in the United States of America where I would
1063
01:08:32,480 --> 01:08:37,040
sooner walk down the street in Afghanistan than go walk down some of these neighborhoods
1064
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:38,040
at night.
1065
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:39,280
So I, I totally get that.
1066
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,040
Uh, we, we, we look past that for whatever reason, the dangers that are right in our
1067
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:44,040
own backyard.
1068
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:52,920
Um, but, but, um, look, I mean, there were, there were lots of, um, you know, it was a
1069
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:58,720
little bit of controversy around that incident, et cetera, and, um, you know, like I said,
1070
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,400
it's difficult for me to comment to be like, or to give you the details that I know about
1071
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:05,680
it because these guys were just stupid.
1072
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:06,800
Right.
1073
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:12,360
And so it had nothing to do with the country or with the Congo being a dangerous place or
1074
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:13,360
anything like that.
1075
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:18,800
It was the fact that they went into a known dangerous place, you know, um, and they, and
1076
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,520
they, they paid the ultimate price.
1077
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:22,520
Yeah.
1078
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:27,040
So during this time, I've been thinking of this whole time you're describing this, um,
1079
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,000
you know, you're gathering information and, and, and, uh, and people are telling you about
1080
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,000
these places.
1081
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:36,280
Is this before a time where you could just get on Google and look at satellite maps and
1082
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:39,080
like peruse around searching for rivers?
1083
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:43,480
Like it's sort of like, I don't know if you do, if you're like me, I spend so much of
1084
01:09:43,480 --> 01:09:48,560
my day looking at rivers and I spend a lot of time on Google.
1085
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:49,560
Yeah.
1086
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,840
Um, well, I'll tell you.
1087
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:54,000
It was actually quite hard finding this place.
1088
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:58,920
You know, once I knew where I was going, I tried to find this river on Google Earth and
1089
01:09:58,920 --> 01:09:59,920
stuff.
1090
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:01,520
It was quite difficult to find.
1091
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:05,840
And the, um, the imagery at the time was from the, from the rainy season.
1092
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:06,840
Okay.
1093
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:11,560
I couldn't really make out what I was in for.
1094
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:17,760
Um, so no, there wasn't, um, I couldn't do much preparation for it.
1095
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,680
And in fact, you know, I only once I got there, I realized just how small this river was,
1096
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:27,680
you know, so when I looked on Google, I kind of looked and I kind of saw a river and went,
1097
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:28,840
no, this can't be it.
1098
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:29,840
It must be bigger than that.
1099
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,880
I mean, but don't worry, these guys know they've, they've told me they know where it
1100
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:35,880
is.
1101
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:40,200
And it was actually one of the big surprises when I arrived was just how small this river
1102
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:41,200
was.
1103
01:10:41,200 --> 01:10:42,200
Oh, yeah.
1104
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:47,720
Did you show up on, were you scouting this area on foot or did y'all come?
1105
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:51,600
You know, come with like, you know, packable boats.
1106
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:59,440
I mean, when you're first kind of navigating the area, it was, um, it was, it that was
1107
01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:09,640
probably one of the coolest and the hardest things that I had ever done, you know, um,
1108
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,680
you know, so, so, you know, we, we, first of all, you know, we arrived in the, in the,
1109
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:15,600
in the, in the, in the, in the capital and stuff.
1110
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,640
And, you know, that's where, you know, all of the, all of the nonsense was happening
1111
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,480
with the, with the government and so forth.
1112
01:11:21,480 --> 01:11:29,280
And, you know, we flew to the other side of the country where basically geographically,
1113
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:34,040
I don't think that, I don't think that anybody then knew that the country was in flux.
1114
01:11:34,040 --> 01:11:42,240
I mean, it was a completely different set of issues when we arrived, you know, in the,
1115
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:43,640
in the Eastern CA iron stuff.
1116
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:48,520
But when one of them was affected, there was, you know, the, the, the hunting concession
1117
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:55,920
or the hunting operation was, was based on a very small river called the Koshel, which
1118
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:00,280
was a tributary of the Chinko and was a tiny little chocolate brown river.
1119
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:05,040
I mean, you could, I mean, I don't know, you know, I don't know how to describe just how
1120
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:08,120
small this river was, but if you saw it, you'd say that's not a river.
1121
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:09,440
It's like a stream.
1122
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:10,440
Stream, yeah.
1123
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:20,200
And, and so, so there wasn't a road to the Chinko River, you know, we had to make a road.
1124
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:26,560
And, and so we, you know, they, you know, we had a Toyota Land Cruiser and there was
1125
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:32,480
a, an aluminum tracker boat that they sort of, I don't know how they came about, but
1126
01:12:32,480 --> 01:12:36,760
they said that there was a guy that sort of eventually fled the country and said, look,
1127
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:40,840
I mean, I've had enough of this place and you know, here's this boat and buy it off
1128
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,720
me for a thousand bucks or so.
1129
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:44,840
And these boats are really hard to come by on the sea.
1130
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:45,840
Yeah.
1131
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,640
They saw the opportunity, bought the boat, got the boat into the hunting concession and
1132
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:52,560
there awaited use.
1133
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,760
And you know, so this boat went on to the top of the Land Cruiser and then of course,
1134
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,880
a small like five horse, even a motor and so forth.
1135
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:06,440
And, you know, they gave me, you know, five men, you know, to, to aid me on my journey,
1136
01:13:06,440 --> 01:13:11,920
you know, one of them was a former elephant poacher from the area and, and that had turned
1137
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:12,920
an anti-poacher.
1138
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:18,560
So nobody was entirely sure if he killed more and more elephants or people in his life.
1139
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:25,400
But he had this very quiet resolve about him and everybody gave him this wide berth and
1140
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:34,800
yeah, in the Georgie or is Georgie and, and he was, yeah, that man, I think he, he must
1141
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:38,680
have saved my life on a few occasions that I didn't even know of, but he was sort of
1142
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:44,640
the expedition leader or was to ensure my safety on the expedition.
1143
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:51,040
And you know, with him and another guy, Alphonse, Richard, a guy called Bao and another one
1144
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:55,120
whose name I can't recall, you know, we basically ventured with his Land Cruiser boat on the
1145
01:13:55,120 --> 01:14:01,840
roof, small, even rude motor without a cowling or anything on it, bags of maize and, you
1146
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:07,240
know, you know, and machetes and an axe.
1147
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:15,280
We went with a, with a downloaded GPS map and, you know, your visual aspects, you know,
1148
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:22,000
and you basically just went and we'd machete our way through this, this veritable rainforest
1149
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,880
and savannah grassland of the Central African Republic and took us about three days to cut
1150
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:31,960
a road to where this river was.
1151
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:32,960
Yeah.
1152
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:33,960
To get to the river.
1153
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:34,960
Yeah.
1154
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:35,960
Oh, geez.
1155
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,480
At the time that you went, I mean, I guess you went during the dry season.
1156
01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:41,680
Was the water clear as had been?
1157
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:43,400
They definitely went in the dry season.
1158
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:52,480
Well, that's sort of when, so this is, you know, when I arrived in the camp, you know,
1159
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:53,480
there was a scientist there.
1160
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:57,880
There were two scientists there that had arrived there a few years prior to me.
1161
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:02,640
You know, they really, they really wanted to know more about the area because as I mentioned,
1162
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:07,080
you know, there's, there are hardly any uninhabited water courses in Africa.
1163
01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:08,080
In fact, they are none.
1164
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:09,080
This is the only one.
1165
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:10,080
Oh, geez.
1166
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:11,080
It's an enigma.
1167
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:19,440
You know, these guys arrived there, a guy with the name of Thierry Abishir, a Swiss naturalist,
1168
01:15:19,440 --> 01:15:24,520
you know, was sort of going and looking for a place in Africa that was uninhabited and
1169
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:28,320
so forth, looked at a map and you know, in a map when they, when they look at your population,
1170
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,720
there are all these little black dots that indicate villages or so.
1171
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:32,720
Yeah.
1172
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:39,960
And saw this absence, this complete blank area in, in, in what, in, in what is the geographical
1173
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:40,960
center of Africa.
1174
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,080
It's the pole of inaccessibility, you know, the Jinko River.
1175
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:46,080
Yeah.
1176
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,040
And the hardest place in Africa to get to right there in the middle of this river with
1177
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:53,440
no black dots around.
1178
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:57,920
And that's what I happen to see as well when I, when I looked onto like, you know, geography
1179
01:15:57,920 --> 01:15:59,440
maps and things like that.
1180
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:03,600
So they'd arrived there and you know, they were starting to do things like sampling and
1181
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:04,720
so forth.
1182
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:09,480
And, and so somebody said to me, oh, you know, they fish and they've caught a few fish and
1183
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:13,760
they really, you know, so I immediately went to them saying, okay, so tell me about the
1184
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:18,200
Goliath Tigerfish and this was when I was in the main camp before we embarked to see the
1185
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:22,240
river and they sort of looked at me and said, what do you mean?
1186
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:23,240
Oh no.
1187
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:29,520
And I said, well, you know, the fish that I'm here to catch, the Goliath Tigerfish, that
1188
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:33,040
big, the giant, that really big tigerfish.
1189
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,640
And they said, no, we've caught some tigerfish here.
1190
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,960
I said, well, how big, how big they say, and they showed me, and they showed me, you know,
1191
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:44,400
something between 20 and 25 inches.
1192
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:47,520
And I sort of went, no, but, and they said, no, but there was also one day, you know,
1193
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,640
we hooked something and there was a big white flash and, you know, we lost it.
1194
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,840
And I said, yeah, but, but Eric told me that there's a lot of Goliath Tigerfish, you guys
1195
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:56,840
eat them.
1196
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:57,840
Yeah.
1197
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:00,720
No, he says no, they don't know about that.
1198
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:01,720
Right.
1199
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:02,720
Oh, geez.
1200
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:08,440
So I sort of went, okay, you know, okay, look, I mean, I've actually had this before, you
1201
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:11,160
know, people often don't know what I'm talking about.
1202
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:12,160
Okay.
1203
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:18,960
And then I get to this river after roping in a client of mine to go with me until these
1204
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:23,480
family found out where I was trying to take him and they vetoed his whole trip.
1205
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,800
Client then said, go ahead, I'll still pay for the trip you go.
1206
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:28,560
I know how much it means to you.
1207
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:29,560
Yeah.
1208
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:35,320
And I obviously racked up a bit of debt and got there three days to get to this river
1209
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:43,840
and I get to this river and I mean, my, my heart just sank into my boots.
1210
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:52,520
I mean, it was, I mean, this thing was the river was probably about 50 yards across and
1211
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,760
probably about three inches deep.
1212
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,760
Oh, no.
1213
01:17:55,760 --> 01:18:02,280
I mean, there was no self-respecting Goliath Tigerfish, no self-respecting Tigerfish.
1214
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:03,280
Yeah.
1215
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:08,080
I remember I was in this river and never mind the Goliath and I stood there and I just,
1216
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:13,320
you know, my, I don't know, I just dropped my head and just said, like, oh my God, I
1217
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:21,040
think I've wasted all of my money and time to a place where there's just, there's definitely
1218
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,160
no Goliath in this river.
1219
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:27,880
Just by looking at it, you know, I mean, you could, you could wait across it without getting
1220
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:32,360
your knees wet, you know, in a few seconds, you could throw a rock across it.
1221
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,240
I mean, in some places you could, you can jump almost jump across this river.
1222
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:38,240
Yeah.
1223
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:45,520
So, so that was a bit of a, you know, I thought, oh my God, what have I done?
1224
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:51,280
But, but yeah, so we, you know, I don't know, we were there.
1225
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:55,680
So, you know, I could see a little bit of movement and stuff of some fish, et cetera.
1226
01:18:55,680 --> 01:19:00,040
So I started exploring it a little bit and there was some, some common Tigerfish there
1227
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:06,600
and I caught a few of those and, and you know, we started exploring up and downstream
1228
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:10,760
of our camping area and I noticed that, you know, on the sort of the, the, where the river
1229
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:16,720
bend, you know, had bends in it, you know, from erosion because that river, you know,
1230
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:17,720
floods completely.
1231
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:18,720
Yeah.
1232
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:24,080
You know, where it had bends in the river and stuff, there were some much deeper pools
1233
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:29,600
and so that, that I then started fishing in, and you know, just kind of like, you know,
1234
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:35,320
I had six weeks, right in this place and I sort of just see what I could find.
1235
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:36,320
Yeah.
1236
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:37,320
Yeah.
1237
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:41,480
Yeah, I would think maybe that would be of benefit to you.
1238
01:19:41,480 --> 01:19:44,720
I mean, once you found out that they're there, but if you come to the dry season, the water
1239
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:51,960
is going down, it would theoretically consolidate them into at least tighter groupings and deeper
1240
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:52,960
pockets.
1241
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:53,960
Yeah.
1242
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:57,160
Well, I mean, that's just, you just got to find those spots like.
1243
01:19:57,160 --> 01:19:59,680
That's a theory, right?
1244
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:00,680
Yes.
1245
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,920
I mean, so I mean, by then I'd actually sort of, I'd given up hope that they were alive
1246
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:10,440
there and I started, but I did start looking for the deeper holes and like those spots
1247
01:20:10,440 --> 01:20:11,440
that you're talking about.
1248
01:20:11,440 --> 01:20:12,440
Yeah.
1249
01:20:12,440 --> 01:20:13,440
But they were far between.
1250
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:20,280
We'd often travel for hours or, you know, on straight, you know, a few inch deep pools
1251
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,160
where you can see the bottom.
1252
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:24,040
You can see everything that's in the river.
1253
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:25,040
Yeah.
1254
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,400
You know, you can see there's nothing big there.
1255
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,160
You know, you'll see schools of baitfish and of this and of that.
1256
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:36,760
I mean, significant amount of fish in the river and some really weird and cool species
1257
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:41,040
and you'd see these, you know, all of these strange fish that you'd never seen in your
1258
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,240
life before, but you don't really care at that stage.
1259
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:47,200
You know, you really, you know, you're looking for something that you can catch.
1260
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:53,760
And so, so then the one day of fishing in one of these deep pools, you know, I get a strike
1261
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:57,320
and the next thing, you know, it's a Nile Perch.
1262
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,360
And so the Nile Perch were known to be around there and stuff.
1263
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:02,560
And I mean, it was a very big Nile Perch.
1264
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,320
And I mean, it came right out the water right in front of me.
1265
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:07,680
There was no mistaking it.
1266
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:11,000
And and it ended up losing the fish.
1267
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:14,240
You know, there's a significant amount of oysters in this river.
1268
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:15,240
You can't believe it.
1269
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:20,000
But in the middle of Africa, there's like these boulders and stuff are often covered
1270
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:24,840
ridden with oysters and they'll cut your inflatable boats and cut your boots and everything to
1271
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,280
shreds and they do the same with your leaders.
1272
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:34,120
So this big Nile Perch completely unexpected that I like that I hooked it came out of the
1273
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:38,640
water and stuff went around one of these boulders and just seven fly line made my fly line look
1274
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:42,320
like a peeled banana as it came back around and stuff.
1275
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:46,600
And I had to like put a new fly line and stuff and kept trying.
1276
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:51,240
So, you know, by now, I was so desperate to catch something big or anything, you know,
1277
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,600
the Nile Perch was sort of, you know, second prize.
1278
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:59,440
But by now, I mean, it's a wonderful fish to catch.
1279
01:21:59,440 --> 01:22:05,880
And so, you know, I sort of went about fishing for them and I'd landed a few good ones, you
1280
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:08,440
know, the 20, 30 pounders and stuff.
1281
01:22:08,440 --> 01:22:11,880
The really big ones got away from me.
1282
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,160
And, you know, it came up to a point where I was now fishing.
1283
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:19,840
I'd forsaken the whole Kali thing.
1284
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,320
I was now fishing with things like 50 and 60 pound straight flura.
1285
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:25,320
Yeah.
1286
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:30,960
The flop and these big flies, because you know, Nile Perch like really big flies.
1287
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:34,080
You know, occasionally I'd see a smaller tiger trying to attack this big fly.
1288
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:37,000
But I mean, they could do nothing to it, right?
1289
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:38,000
Right.
1290
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:43,000
And I got to this one place and, you know, sort of said, okay, I'll try here for some
1291
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,920
Nile Perch and I made a cast in and, you know, started stripping the fly back.
1292
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:53,360
And the next thing I just felt this, you know, this definite touch or hit of the fly.
1293
01:22:53,360 --> 01:23:01,000
But almost like, you know, just this very quick take and off.
1294
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:04,160
And then on my next strip, you could just feel there's nothing left.
1295
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:05,160
There's nothing there.
1296
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:06,680
I just immediately bit you off.
1297
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,880
I'm just big fly and there's a lot of resistance in the water and stuff.
1298
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:14,520
So you have to work it back and on this one hit like that, on my next strip, there was
1299
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:16,720
just nothing on the end of the line.
1300
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:23,600
And I keep stripping back and I lift and this 60 pound leader is just clean cut off.
1301
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:25,360
All fly is gone.
1302
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,040
All 12 inch fly is gone.
1303
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:33,480
And the 60 pound leader has been been cut clean and I go.
1304
01:23:33,480 --> 01:23:37,960
And I don't know, you know, that there are some times that you, you know, something's
1305
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:43,920
happened, but you don't want to, you don't want to get, I don't know, you don't want
1306
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:44,920
to admit it.
1307
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:45,920
Right.
1308
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:46,920
Yeah.
1309
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:48,480
Don't want to be disappointed or something.
1310
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:54,160
But I sort of, it had to be, you know, you sit there and I just got like, what was that?
1311
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:56,600
It had to be, it had to be something, right?
1312
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:01,200
And that's the first time that I sort of went, there's something going on here, something
1313
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:06,400
going on in this river that, that it had to be one.
1314
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:07,400
Come on.
1315
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:08,400
Right.
1316
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:09,400
No, no, no, no, no.
1317
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,400
There's like two minds, two voices in your head.
1318
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:12,960
The one saying, it is, it is, it is.
1319
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:17,400
And the other one saying, don't, don't, don't, don't get excited about it.
1320
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,400
And, and yeah.
1321
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:26,240
So, so I sort of, you know, I mean, we kept exploring the river and then we kept pushing
1322
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,600
further and further up the river because, you know, downstream of us where it was where
1323
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:35,320
this caustral river flowed into the, into the Jinko and it kind of muddied the waters
1324
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:36,320
up and stuff.
1325
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:39,120
We really liked fishing in the clearer water.
1326
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:45,880
And so we went up and, and then a few days later in exploring a pool further upstream,
1327
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:51,200
you know, I, I noticed two small fish getting flushed from under the boat.
1328
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:52,200
You're right.
1329
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:54,960
So we'd obviously spooked them or something like that.
1330
01:24:54,960 --> 01:25:02,040
And they swam right up to this, up to this, you know, this, this, this, this shelf next
1331
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:03,040
to us.
1332
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:05,480
And they, they got to the shelf and realized they couldn't go anywhere.
1333
01:25:05,480 --> 01:25:09,160
And you could see they were very agitated and nervous and things like that.
1334
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:13,680
And I'm sitting, I'm sitting quite low to the water.
1335
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:19,920
And the next thing in my peripheral vision from the corner of my eye, I look and this,
1336
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,160
this thing just arrives.
1337
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:24,160
It just appears.
1338
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:29,320
It just, it's almost like, you know, in the, in the split second between frames, this thing
1339
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:33,440
just came and stopped like that next to the boat.
1340
01:25:33,440 --> 01:25:42,320
And I looked over my shoulder and I looked and I'll tell you what, I mean, when you,
1341
01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:49,720
when you look at a Goliathige fish, man, they look back at you, that fish looked at me.
1342
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:55,600
It sort of, and I looked at it with big eyes like this and it looked at me.
1343
01:25:55,600 --> 01:25:57,520
It was kind of looking at me.
1344
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,280
The two little fish were nervous and stuff.
1345
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,400
And I just, I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
1346
01:26:01,400 --> 01:26:02,400
I was face to face.
1347
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:10,840
I was, I was six feet away from a free swimming Goliathige fish in clear water right next to
1348
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:11,840
in this boat.
1349
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:15,680
I don't know if, if anybody's ever seen that.
1350
01:26:15,680 --> 01:26:21,360
They have, you know, and the next thing I sort of, I reach over to my rod and I'm about
1351
01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:27,240
to just pick up the rod and that fish saw me move and I just, I mean, though it left
1352
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:32,800
even quicker than it, than it appeared at just, it vanished.
1353
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:33,800
Geez.
1354
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:36,640
I just couldn't believe how quickly that happened.
1355
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,240
And I looked and I was just, I can't believe this.
1356
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:40,880
I can't believe this.
1357
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:47,840
You know, and, and I made so many costs in desperation to sort of see if I could get
1358
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:51,400
something to eat in that pool and stuff.
1359
01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:56,520
And you know, and, and, and then I was reminded of just how difficult it is to actually entice
1360
01:26:56,520 --> 01:26:57,520
these things.
1361
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:58,520
Yeah.
1362
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:03,400
And sort of, you know, you start losing a little bit of hope when I drifted further down in
1363
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:09,520
that pool and then the next thing my fly stopped, you know, and I could feel there's something,
1364
01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:11,760
there's something on the end of this fly.
1365
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,800
And, and it sort of, it stayed in one place and stayed in one place.
1366
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:19,840
And I thought, no, no, no, this must be a Nile perch, you know, because it fought exactly
1367
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:21,480
like what a Nile perch does.
1368
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:22,480
Yeah.
1369
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:28,640
And so I look up and it was quite a long cast when I look up and about 60 feet from me,
1370
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:33,680
the silver bar flops around, just comes up to the surface and starts flopping around
1371
01:27:33,680 --> 01:27:37,040
in one place and I look and I go, oh my God.
1372
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:38,040
Yeah.
1373
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:39,040
It took a little higher.
1374
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:43,880
I don't know what's going on, but this fish is sort of doesn't know what's going on.
1375
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:47,280
It's kind of, it's irritated by this thing in its mouth.
1376
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:48,280
Yeah.
1377
01:27:48,280 --> 01:27:51,000
And I just told them, but there was Georgie and Alfonso with me on the boat.
1378
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:53,720
And I said, but get me there now.
1379
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,520
Get me, get the boat there.
1380
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:56,520
Right.
1381
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:57,520
Yeah.
1382
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:58,720
You get the boat there.
1383
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:01,080
I'll strip the line.
1384
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,680
And, and we approach and this fish sort of writes itself and it sort of realizes now that
1385
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:08,400
it took and it starts fighting.
1386
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,120
And these are the very nervous moments because you don't know if it took properly.
1387
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:15,120
And I'm fighting it and I'm fighting it and it's right next to the boat under us and
1388
01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:22,640
stuff and the, and the next thing I see something appear under it and it just sort of flashes
1389
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,400
like this gray shape just flashes once flashes twice.
1390
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:34,440
And by the time I realized what was happening, what was happening, this enormous Goliath
1391
01:28:34,440 --> 01:28:38,840
comes and just grabs onto.
1392
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:39,840
You've got to be kidding me.
1393
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:40,840
Yeah.
1394
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:47,960
The one I hooked was probably about 20 pounds or so.
1395
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,520
Probably about a 30 inch or so fish.
1396
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:51,520
Yeah.
1397
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:58,080
This, this enormous Goliath just comes in, slams its jaws shut right on top of the back
1398
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:02,880
of this other fish right behind its torso and pectin like this.
1399
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,480
Like up to the surface right in front of me.
1400
01:29:06,480 --> 01:29:12,800
And as it slams its jaws shut over this fish, it looked at me, it sat there like this with
1401
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,680
the fish in its mouth and looked at me.
1402
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:15,680
That is horrifying.
1403
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:16,680
What are you, you know?
1404
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:21,040
I was looking at this thing going, oh my God.
1405
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:27,720
And Alphonse, the guy on the boat, he grabs the paddle and he starts whacking the water
1406
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:28,720
over.
1407
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,120
I mean, that fish is about this deep on the boat, right?
1408
01:29:31,120 --> 01:29:36,240
So he starts whacking the water above this fish to try and make it release and stuff.
1409
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:38,720
And hits and hits and hits and stuff.
1410
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:47,320
And this big Goliath kind of looks and goes and tightens its grip onto this fish.
1411
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:53,720
Like deeps, like further chomps onto this fish and clicks and holds it again like that.
1412
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:57,360
Like it's fighting for the, like it's going, this is mine.
1413
01:29:57,360 --> 01:29:58,360
You know?
1414
01:29:58,360 --> 01:29:59,360
Geez.
1415
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,200
And the next time I shouted Alphonse, I go, no, no, no, like grab the bogey, grab the
1416
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:04,200
bogey.
1417
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,400
And I just try and yank this fish.
1418
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:07,400
Yeah.
1419
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:09,040
I mean, this all happened in a few seconds.
1420
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:14,760
And the next thing my fly pops out of the smaller Goliath's mouth and the big Goliath
1421
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:20,400
turns down with it and just starts, you know, fitting it down into this deep pool.
1422
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:26,920
And there's just little scales and stuff and, you know, debris still sort of suspended in
1423
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:34,280
this, in this eerie green water under me.
1424
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:40,400
And I look up and Alphonse looks and he just goes, Terrible, Terrible.
1425
01:30:40,400 --> 01:30:47,320
You know, this, I'm looking, I mean, they were, these guys were scared.
1426
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:50,880
They were going, they didn't know that this, they didn't know this is what I was trying
1427
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:51,880
to do.
1428
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:52,880
Right.
1429
01:30:52,880 --> 01:31:01,400
And, and yeah, that was, that was a, that was a hair raising experience.
1430
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:07,680
I mean, you know, you, you know, I was, we were just like astounded by this thing.
1431
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:13,600
You know, now, so that was the first time I really, it was, it was confirmed there are
1432
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,720
Goliath and the chinko, right?
1433
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:22,000
Gosh, what a, I mean, I don't know if I'd be excited or heartbroken.
1434
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:26,680
I'm probably more excited, but you know, if you weren't already haunted by him in your
1435
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:32,400
dreams beforehand, you know, heaven forbid you left that experience without landing one.
1436
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,120
You have that on your conscience and that etched into your memories.
1437
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:39,760
So I would have, did you immediately set up camp on that spot?
1438
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:49,920
Like an interesting thing that happened actually the day before that we were in camp and for
1439
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:59,360
some reason, you know, there was a weird agitated a hive of bees or so in the area and I'm allergic
1440
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:06,840
to bees and these, you know, the first thing that happened was a bee flew straight into
1441
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:12,120
the back of my neck where my hair was and, and started going crazy and, and, and stuff
1442
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,320
and I tried to get it out, get it out.
1443
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:21,760
And then once I got it out, I, I smelt, there was this distinctive smell and I realized that
1444
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:29,440
this beer just left a pheromone on me and the next thing these bees just came in at.
1445
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:34,400
And I mean, I, I ran down the bank and I dove into the water and stuff.
1446
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:41,000
And I mean, you know, and, and like went underwater and you got my head up and yelled at the guys
1447
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:45,280
like mosquito net mosquito net, you know, to try and, you know, I've got to get in under
1448
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:48,520
a mosquito net or something and these bees are hovering around me, et cetera.
1449
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:55,080
And so the next thing I get rid of them, but now my whole body's starting to go into anaphylactic
1450
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:56,080
shock, right?
1451
01:32:56,080 --> 01:33:03,960
And I haven't got an epipen and I am starting to, you know, get a heavy breathing and my
1452
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:09,560
whole body is going red with wealth and everything of the sorts and I get it under my mosquito
1453
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:15,240
net and I, and I think that this really might be it, you know, is this, this, this one.
1454
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:18,400
This might be it, but, but I just, you know, I said to myself, listen, are you going to
1455
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:23,840
have to, you don't have to get a grip here because you, you know, you know, some things,
1456
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:25,840
you know, you've got to do something.
1457
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:29,880
And so I took whatever anti-easter means I had and I chewed them so to try and make them
1458
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:34,440
fine and get them into my digestive system quicker, drank some of the water, lay on my
1459
01:33:34,440 --> 01:33:36,920
back and focused on my breathing.
1460
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:38,320
Wow.
1461
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,640
And, and I got through it.
1462
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:46,600
And I nearly, I, you know, like, I was just thinking about my poor mother who is going
1463
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:52,520
to be told that your son is dead, you know, was attacked by a swarm of bees.
1464
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:57,400
And it broke me at that moment really broke me.
1465
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,080
I just said, like, you know what, I've had enough of this place.
1466
01:34:00,080 --> 01:34:02,200
I really, I've had enough.
1467
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:03,200
I'm leaving.
1468
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:06,240
And I told Georgie and everybody, I said, like, pack up the camp.
1469
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:07,240
We're out of here.
1470
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:08,240
Yeah.
1471
01:34:08,240 --> 01:34:11,600
And it was funny, you know, I was sitting there watching them.
1472
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:16,760
Pack up the camp and I, and I looked and I said, you know what?
1473
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:21,040
No, come on, man, just like, just get a grip.
1474
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:22,040
Okay.
1475
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,520
And I stopped them and I said, guys, just stop packing up the camp.
1476
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,000
I can hear.
1477
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:27,000
Just do it.
1478
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:28,000
Don't be scared.
1479
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:29,000
You've got to do this.
1480
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,000
I don't know what it was.
1481
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:35,400
I just said to myself, I have to complete this mission.
1482
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:39,000
I can't leave like, you know, from a few bee steps.
1483
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:40,000
Yeah.
1484
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:44,240
And the next day was the day that I found the Goliath, right?
1485
01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:47,760
And so that was amazing.
1486
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:55,960
And you know, another thing happened to me that night was I went to sleep and I sort
1487
01:34:55,960 --> 01:35:00,840
of, I lay in my, in this camp cot and it was such an interesting setup.
1488
01:35:00,840 --> 01:35:05,240
You know, they would basically just have a mosquito net over a camp cot right at the
1489
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:10,400
end, like a tarpaulin, you know, with makeshift roof over your, over you and stuff.
1490
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,280
You're basically exposed to the jungle.
1491
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,440
And I lay there and I couldn't sleep.
1492
01:35:15,440 --> 01:35:24,040
I couldn't sleep because I knew that the next day that I was going to go and catch this
1493
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:25,400
Goliath, I knew.
1494
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:27,720
I just knew it.
1495
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:29,840
And the funniest thing happened.
1496
01:35:29,840 --> 01:35:35,400
I lay in my camp cot that night and I was looking up at where the stars break through
1497
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,280
the jungle canopy and stuff.
1498
01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:40,520
And I started thinking of my whole life.
1499
01:35:40,520 --> 01:35:44,920
I started thinking of when I was a kid of, you know, how my father taught me how to fish
1500
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,360
of school of everything.
1501
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:54,680
And in vivid detail, my whole life played out in front of me as I couldn't sleep.
1502
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,520
And it was almost like this was the most momentous thing.
1503
01:35:57,520 --> 01:35:59,000
This was, this was my calling.
1504
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:06,440
This was the, the thing that I was made for was going to happen the next day.
1505
01:36:06,440 --> 01:36:13,440
And it was when my whole life played out in front of me in my bed that I, from beginning
1506
01:36:13,440 --> 01:36:16,360
to where I was at that point in time.
1507
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:18,360
And it was remarkable.
1508
01:36:18,360 --> 01:36:22,720
Like the emotional attachment, the sort of spiritual attachment and everything that I
1509
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,720
have to this fish is really is sometimes unbearable.
1510
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,240
Yeah, that is incredible.
1511
01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:35,240
It's a, I don't know how to explain it.
1512
01:36:35,240 --> 01:36:40,320
And anyway, on the next day we went and we went to that same pool and funny enough, as
1513
01:36:40,320 --> 01:36:44,720
we arrived at that pool, I noticed this eeriness about that pool.
1514
01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:49,840
There were colibus monkeys, you know, jumping through the treetops when we arrived there,
1515
01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:53,880
you know, making these fairly harrowing sounds and things like that.
1516
01:36:53,880 --> 01:36:57,800
And on the bank of this pool, and it's a tiny pool.
1517
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:03,560
I mean, the pool is probably, I don't know, the size of the average, you know, yard in
1518
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:05,560
the US or something.
1519
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:06,560
Yeah.
1520
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:12,720
And I noticed something in the shadows and we pushed the boat over there to go and see
1521
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:13,720
what it was.
1522
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:20,080
And it was this severed half of this Goliath tigerfish that was being eaten by these eel-like,
1523
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:25,200
you know, they look a bit like snakehead fish, you know, and that was, you know, they were
1524
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:26,200
all hovering around it.
1525
01:37:26,200 --> 01:37:31,160
So this bigger Goliath that severed it and, you know, the rest of the carcass was carried
1526
01:37:31,160 --> 01:37:36,080
into the shallows and was being devoured by these other fish and I, and I've got a photograph
1527
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,360
of it and I've got a photograph of my hand next to it.
1528
01:37:38,360 --> 01:37:39,880
Like first, a photograph of it.
1529
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:40,880
Yeah.
1530
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:43,880
And then you see a little fish and then a photograph of my hand next to it and you realize how
1531
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:49,440
big this fish is and you realize how big this fish must have been that ate it.
1532
01:37:49,440 --> 01:37:54,200
And, you know, I went about night and I went about this pool and I fished and I worked
1533
01:37:54,200 --> 01:37:55,200
the pool, et cetera.
1534
01:37:55,200 --> 01:38:01,680
And the next thing there was, I get this strike from this fish.
1535
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:07,920
And it was, it was amazing, you know, just how, but I knew it.
1536
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:09,520
I sort of, I just knew it.
1537
01:38:09,520 --> 01:38:17,000
I knew it would happen and I knew this fish would be caught and and I landed it on the
1538
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:24,440
sandbar and I remember just seeing this magnificent and it was most likely the fish that had devoured
1539
01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:25,800
that previous fish because it was huge.
1540
01:38:25,800 --> 01:38:33,520
It was a very big fish and and at that point in time, the quiet, you know, quiet Georgie
1541
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:38,040
looked up at me and he looked at me and he said to me and he gave me the only compliment
1542
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:42,400
he had given me, you know, all six weeks that we were there and he said, no, actually he
1543
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,480
gave me two and I'll tell you about the other one later.
1544
01:38:44,480 --> 01:38:47,440
He said to me, it's a good fish.
1545
01:38:47,440 --> 01:38:50,560
He said to me, you are a good fish.
1546
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:55,280
And yeah, that was, yeah, it was an amazing experience.
1547
01:38:55,280 --> 01:38:56,280
Yeah.
1548
01:38:56,280 --> 01:39:02,360
Well, it's good to feel like you've earned that accolade, but yeah, man, it's funny.
1549
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:07,360
As you're mentioning this, I think of other times where I've caught some of my most memorable
1550
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:14,080
catches in my life, none quite to the, I don't know, the level of a Goliath tiger fish,
1551
01:39:14,080 --> 01:39:19,280
but still fish that have deep meaning to me and almost invariably all of them came just
1552
01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:25,920
on the other side of some proverbial fork in the road that I'd hit where there was a,
1553
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:29,720
there was a very strong option to be like, you know, fuck this.
1554
01:39:29,720 --> 01:39:31,520
Let's, let's call it a day.
1555
01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:35,840
This not happen where there was an opportunity to turn back and for whatever reason felt
1556
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,000
compelled to push through.
1557
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:41,960
I would say almost every time that that's happened strongly enough, there was always
1558
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:47,000
some great fish on the other side of that enough so that now it's a good thing because
1559
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:52,680
now I feel like in my own fishing, when I run into those scenarios, I start getting
1560
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:59,080
real nervous because it's like, you remember, I've, I've, I've been in this crux position
1561
01:39:59,080 --> 01:40:03,840
before and I remember how it turned out and someone's like, now I need to be on guard
1562
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:09,280
cause something's going to happen, but it's a, yeah, that's, it's always so much more
1563
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:14,560
rewarding when it kind of comes on this opportunity you had to give up or quit or something got
1564
01:40:14,560 --> 01:40:19,920
thrown in your path that probably would have sent many another angler packing.
1565
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:22,920
Um, that's, that's wild.
1566
01:40:22,920 --> 01:40:26,280
I, cause I was, you know, I was always, I was kind of wondering what your reaction
1567
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,280
would be.
1568
01:40:27,280 --> 01:40:31,800
I've had these moments where I caught the fish of a lifetime and then some of them caused
1569
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:34,720
me to scream and shriek.
1570
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:40,280
Just caused me to just be almost paralyzed with silence and the inability to kind of
1571
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,520
cope with what had the magnitude of what had happened.
1572
01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:46,920
So I was wondering what that fish did to you on that.
1573
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:53,760
Yeah, it was, it was, it really, it did change everything, but I'll tell you what else it
1574
01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:54,760
did.
1575
01:40:54,760 --> 01:41:02,720
Um, it really, it changed my life to the extent where, um, you know, as far as, as long as
1576
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:07,440
I could remember, there were only two things that I, that I ever wanted to do.
1577
01:41:07,440 --> 01:41:15,760
Um, I wanted to encounter a big tiger shark on the flats of Cosmolida and the Seychelles,
1578
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:21,800
which I did, which I'm not a religious man, but I had some conversations with a big man
1579
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:22,800
that day.
1580
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:28,200
And, um, and the other thing was to catch a guy, tiger fish on fly.
1581
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:35,320
And, and when I'd done it, when I arrived home, everything changed for me in the sense
1582
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:39,480
that I had no idea what I was going to do.
1583
01:41:39,480 --> 01:41:43,720
I had no idea what I was going to do with the rest of my life because the only thing
1584
01:41:43,720 --> 01:41:47,520
I had ever wanted to do, I had done.
1585
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:50,520
And it was, it was quite strange.
1586
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:56,480
You know, I actually, I became estranged from, from, from, from my normal life to the extent
1587
01:41:56,480 --> 01:42:00,560
where I actually, I quit the fly fishing business.
1588
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:07,040
Um, I decided to take up a career in something else and, and left the fly fishing business
1589
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:08,560
for three years.
1590
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:19,600
Um, you know, like just almost unable to, to sort of consider what, what else to do.
1591
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:22,480
Um, but I came back.
1592
01:42:22,480 --> 01:42:24,480
Right.
1593
01:42:24,480 --> 01:42:25,480
Yeah.
1594
01:42:25,480 --> 01:42:26,480
Yeah.
1595
01:42:26,480 --> 01:42:30,560
Uh, yeah, I guess that's interesting if, if you're whole, I mean, if everything had revolved
1596
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:34,240
around this one fish and this one mission, and once you've completed that, there's kind
1597
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:39,360
of like now there's this massive void of all the time and energy and thoughts that you
1598
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:43,240
had that were occupied by this fish or open territory.
1599
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:48,720
Uh, that's got to be a weird feeling on how to kind of repopulate that.
1600
01:42:48,720 --> 01:42:55,440
I was actually, I was a, I was sort of, um, yeah, I'd, I'd lost, I'd lost some things
1601
01:42:55,440 --> 01:42:59,960
and sort of like, I'd lost like a reason for being a reason for doing kind of thing.
1602
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:06,960
It took me a long time to, to figure out, you know, that, that I, you know, that I
1603
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:08,800
actually needed to go back.
1604
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:13,880
Um, because I was quite happy, you know, I mean, for the rest of that trip, I actually
1605
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:18,720
caught a few more fish, but I also realized that there were, there were enough glaring
1606
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:23,760
eyes around and the fish and that that place would mean enough for people that they would
1607
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,040
ultimately try and turn it into something.
1608
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:31,640
And so I wasn't completely honest with anybody about how many fish I'd caught that for the
1609
01:43:31,640 --> 01:43:34,360
rest of that expedition of mine.
1610
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:40,000
And I came back and I wrote an article state claiming that I'd only caught the one.
1611
01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:47,240
And, um, it was a few years later that a friend of mine, Ed Gawir, a person that I had met
1612
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:54,960
through guiding in Kenya, uh, you know, um, had, you know, contacted me and he said to
1613
01:43:54,960 --> 01:44:00,760
me, so tell me about this guy and tell me about where you went and so forth.
1614
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:07,560
And I sort of, you know, told him the truth about what I'd really found there and how
1615
01:44:07,560 --> 01:44:08,560
good it was.
1616
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:15,640
And he said, well, look, I mean, you know, he's got someone that wants to pay an incredible
1617
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:18,000
sum of money to go and catch this thing.
1618
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:22,840
And, uh, and you know, he wants to know if, if, if we can do it.
1619
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:27,400
And I said to him, listen, you know, if you can, if you can, if you can do it, if you
1620
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:30,680
can get us back in there and I mean, I'll give you all the details, et cetera.
1621
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:33,280
I said to him, I'll go do it with you.
1622
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:34,280
Yeah.
1623
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:40,800
And he, I mean, it didn't take, I mean, there's one thing about, uh, about Ed Gawir that you
1624
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:45,320
have to say is that that man can move mountains when it comes to logistics and organizing things
1625
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:46,320
in Africa.
1626
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,880
I don't think there's anybody like him.
1627
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:55,000
And, uh, within, I don't know, within a record period of time, I think everybody, everybody
1628
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:58,720
was even the people on the ground in the Jinko.
1629
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:04,400
I think everybody in the CAR, everybody around like, who's ever known anything about logistics
1630
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:12,080
in that country were flabbergasted as to how efficient and how well Ed went about to plan
1631
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:19,000
our return, you know, um, from, from getting boats with proper motors and everything and
1632
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:25,800
getting containers shipped from Mombasa around Africa and to Duwala, from Duwala into Bangi,
1633
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:33,160
from Bangi with a UN convoy through 17 rebel posts to the doorstep of the Jinko, et cetera.
1634
01:45:33,160 --> 01:45:34,160
Josh.
1635
01:45:34,160 --> 01:45:35,160
All arrived.
1636
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:41,320
And I mean, it was, it was a remarkable, remarkable feat by him.
1637
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:49,200
And, uh, you know, so, so in 2019 we, we returned and we returned, you know, properly geared,
1638
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:52,120
you know, like I said, with all of the right equipment and so forth.
1639
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:56,720
And we, we went with this naturalist to Thierry E. Abbashir and we went with another well
1640
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:03,080
known explorer, national geographic explorer, a guy by the name of Mike Fay, um, who's traversed
1641
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:08,400
the Gabonese jungle barefoot with pygmies and things like that.
1642
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:11,300
Quite an amazing, quite an amazing man.
1643
01:46:11,300 --> 01:46:15,720
And, um, you know, the four of us, including somebody from the department of forestry and
1644
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:22,680
environment from, from, from the CAR, you know, we embarked on this, on this, on this
1645
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:28,440
massive transect of the, of the Jinko River and of the Volvedo River, which is another
1646
01:46:28,440 --> 01:46:32,120
river that, that has its confluence in there.
1647
01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:37,280
And you know, we, we traversed in another six or seven week expedition, we traversed
1648
01:46:37,280 --> 01:46:39,760
about 200 miles of river.
1649
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:40,760
Wow.
1650
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:45,280
And, um, and what we found was just breathtaking.
1651
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:52,680
I mean, we, we did the sort of the Jinko finally opened up to us and the potential of it.
1652
01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:56,840
But a very interesting thing happened, you know, when we, you know, when we embarked
1653
01:46:56,840 --> 01:47:01,920
on this, on this trip, you know, and we, we started, you know, fishing down and, and you
1654
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:07,600
could see how the people that had fished for tiger fish, you know, before, you know, sort
1655
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:11,000
of went about immediately fishing like this and fishing like that, et cetera.
1656
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:15,800
And I don't know what happened, but I was on the boat and I was sort of in places, you
1657
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:17,240
know, rowing the boat and stuff.
1658
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:22,400
And I was sort of guiding them, you know, um, to try and have them also catch a goliath.
1659
01:47:22,400 --> 01:47:23,400
Yeah.
1660
01:47:23,400 --> 01:47:27,640
And, you know, I could always say, like all of these places that you would look for this
1661
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:30,920
fish, if you didn't know what to look for, you know, there were all these places and
1662
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:34,560
they all fished there and then they would fish here and then they would fish there.
1663
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:40,040
And I just, I didn't touch a rod and we just went down the river day by day for about,
1664
01:47:40,040 --> 01:47:44,800
I think it was about four days into the first expedition, five days into the first expedition
1665
01:47:44,800 --> 01:47:47,440
or our return expedition.
1666
01:47:47,440 --> 01:47:58,280
And the one day we get to this pool and I look and I say, here, this is, this is where
1667
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:00,000
we have to fish.
1668
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:06,360
And they sort of look at me and I remember looking at Mike saying, okay, Mike, Mike,
1669
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:07,360
because he was on the other boat.
1670
01:48:07,360 --> 01:48:11,200
I said, here, try this pool, try this pool.
1671
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:14,520
And for some reason, I don't know what happened, but Mike started, you know, messing around
1672
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:16,960
with flies and retieing stuff, et cetera.
1673
01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:21,360
And, you know, it's standing there and he says, well, you get, you do it.
1674
01:48:21,360 --> 01:48:23,960
And I said, okay, right.
1675
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:31,800
And I pick up my rod and three casts later, and I see it come up behind my fly, eats my
1676
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:33,720
fly.
1677
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:38,560
And I catch and land the first fish of our expedition.
1678
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:43,200
And it was a beautiful fish, big fish, so 40 something inch fish, probably about 30
1679
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:46,760
something pounds or whatever.
1680
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:53,920
And it was, it was, and so I released the fish and I look up and I go, man.
1681
01:48:53,920 --> 01:49:01,280
This place, what is it about this place that I've got this, I recognize it.
1682
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:02,280
Yeah.
1683
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:05,280
And I go and it says, yeah, also, I think I recognize it.
1684
01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:12,200
He says, and we both sort of realized at the same time, my God, it's, it's the pool where
1685
01:49:12,200 --> 01:49:14,320
I caught the first one in the chinko.
1686
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:16,600
What are the odds of that?
1687
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:17,600
What are the odds?
1688
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:18,600
Right?
1689
01:49:18,600 --> 01:49:19,600
What are the odds?
1690
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,560
I mean, the serendipity of it.
1691
01:49:23,560 --> 01:49:31,760
I mean, it becomes, it actually becomes so, you know, after a while you just wonder, you
1692
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:33,480
know, you have to wonder.
1693
01:49:33,480 --> 01:49:34,480
Yeah.
1694
01:49:34,480 --> 01:49:35,640
You have to wonder about these things.
1695
01:49:35,640 --> 01:49:36,640
Yeah.
1696
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:41,080
And I had no idea that it was that pool, but when I saw it, I just sort of knew that, like
1697
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:42,640
I had to make a cast there anyway.
1698
01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:43,640
Yeah.
1699
01:49:43,640 --> 01:49:45,920
It turned out it was exactly the same pool.
1700
01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:50,760
And we took a photograph on exactly the same sandbar as where I had my first one photographed.
1701
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:51,760
Yeah.
1702
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:58,640
I think that like the magic of a place like that, how quickly did your focus then turn
1703
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:06,360
to we've got something that there's nothing like this else on planet Earth.
1704
01:50:06,360 --> 01:50:12,160
Now we need to shift our focus and attention towards potentially protecting it.
1705
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:18,000
Was there efforts put in place to like kind of ensure conservation?
1706
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:20,280
I mean, when did it start to turn into that?
1707
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:21,280
Yeah.
1708
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:29,800
But by this time, you know, when I left in 2014 upon discovering this place in 2015,
1709
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:39,440
African parks, a world leader and basically the spearhead in African conservation had
1710
01:50:39,440 --> 01:50:45,080
sort of taken over the concession of the Chinko.
1711
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:51,040
And a little bit of background of African parks is that these guys are, I mean, the
1712
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:52,760
role, you can't even call them a role model.
1713
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:56,640
I don't know if there's anybody, if there's any sort of conservation agency that could
1714
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,760
live up to what African parks are doing.
1715
01:50:59,760 --> 01:51:05,200
Basically, I mean, African parks are in the business of going and finding these national
1716
01:51:05,200 --> 01:51:09,640
parks around the world that are on the brink of collapse that can't be supported by its
1717
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:11,640
own government or anything like that anymore.
1718
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:17,600
And they take over the concession and they would go from either from putting in anti-poaching
1719
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:22,680
forces or something of the sorts and getting large amounts of donations and things.
1720
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:32,160
And really, they reestablish and they stabilize these national parks and save them from collapse.
1721
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:38,760
And I think they've got nearly 30 parks around Africa under their control now.
1722
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:44,280
And then I specialize in these parks like the Serengeti and all of these parks that we all
1723
01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:51,280
know about, where Simba and Dumbo float around and you can sort of graphics and forest with
1724
01:51:51,280 --> 01:51:56,480
wonderful, comfortable dwellings and no more mosquitoes and we've got like, I mean, they
1725
01:51:56,480 --> 01:52:04,200
go into the worst of the worst places to find these unknown.
1726
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:07,080
I mean, you just didn't, you didn't even know.
1727
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:11,360
And some of the animals in these places, you didn't even know these animals existed.
1728
01:52:11,360 --> 01:52:15,440
You didn't even know these places and these expanses existed and they go find them and
1729
01:52:15,440 --> 01:52:21,280
they save them and they've got this giant operating budget and so forth.
1730
01:52:21,280 --> 01:52:24,280
And I mean, they just take no nonsense.
1731
01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:25,280
They really don't.
1732
01:52:25,280 --> 01:52:32,520
I mean, there's, you know, I think that in the world of NGOs and of these charities
1733
01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:39,120
and stuff, you know, there's so little of the intended funds that really go towards the
1734
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:43,760
actual cause that the donations were made towards.
1735
01:52:43,760 --> 01:52:47,880
You know, I think that lots of people take this whole thing called a non-profit organization
1736
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:53,120
literally as well in order not to show a profit, we'll just pay ourselves a massive salary.
1737
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:54,960
You know, and it's sad.
1738
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:57,800
It really is sad and you see so much of it around the world.
1739
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,520
But you know, I think that African parks are exactly the opposite.
1740
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:05,800
They are, as I said, they are the spearhead in Africa.
1741
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:07,680
They're saving Africa.
1742
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:08,680
They really are.
1743
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:09,680
That's awesome.
1744
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:10,680
Yeah.
1745
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:11,680
They don't take nonsense from anybody.
1746
01:53:11,680 --> 01:53:16,720
And I mean, they've, you know, they also do things by the book.
1747
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:24,520
And you know, they fortunately took control of the Chinko and they have gone from strength
1748
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:25,520
to strength.
1749
01:53:25,520 --> 01:53:29,760
I mean, they took the Chinko and the Chinko was, you know, the area of the Chinko is a
1750
01:53:29,760 --> 01:53:30,760
giant area.
1751
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:35,160
But I mean, when it was under the protection of the hunting concession, it was probably
1752
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:41,400
about 6,000 or so square miles of protect, no less 3,000 square miles of particular area.
1753
01:53:41,400 --> 01:53:50,520
It's now one of the largest protected areas in Africa at, I think at around 36,000 square
1754
01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:51,520
miles.
1755
01:53:51,520 --> 01:54:00,200
It's the size of France, you know, it's a completely uninhabited intact area.
1756
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:07,680
The size of France in this epicenter in the middle of Africa, the pole of inaccessibility,
1757
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:11,240
and these guys are in there and they're saving it and they're helping.
1758
01:54:11,240 --> 01:54:12,720
I mean, that's awesome.
1759
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:13,720
Right.
1760
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:20,800
It's, you just, you, the effort, the, the sort of the dedication and stuff it takes to
1761
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:21,800
do that.
1762
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,240
I mean, I mean, we are mere mortal men.
1763
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:26,640
You won't understand what it takes.
1764
01:54:26,640 --> 01:54:31,680
But anyway, so we were very fortunate in the sense that African parks are taken over there,
1765
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:37,040
but it actually also brought with it its own challenges, you know, they wanted to know,
1766
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:42,200
well, because we now sort of discovered that we can go there, we can actually offer fly
1767
01:54:42,200 --> 01:54:45,640
fishing trips for Goliath Tiger fish.
1768
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:50,320
And so forth, and I think African parks, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you
1769
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:52,280
guys, what are your intentions here?
1770
01:54:52,280 --> 01:54:53,680
What do you want to come and do?
1771
01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:54,880
What is this going to be, etc.
1772
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:59,360
You know, we're busy doing, you know, important research.
1773
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:02,560
We've recently discovered chimpanzees here, etc.
1774
01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:07,520
You know, and, and a new species of fish and so forth and so forth.
1775
01:55:07,520 --> 01:55:11,640
I mean, what do you guys want to come and just come and what come and fish here?
1776
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:17,560
You know, so it took a, it took a lot of motivation and it took a lot of dedication and it, it
1777
01:55:17,560 --> 01:55:28,160
took a huge commitment from us to, to sort of, to shift the way that we look at things.
1778
01:55:28,160 --> 01:55:37,040
And you know, when it comes to fishing and so forth, you know, we have to admit that,
1779
01:55:37,040 --> 01:55:41,920
you know, I think fishing is quite a selfish pursuit, right?
1780
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:46,560
I mean, we basically go out there and whether you're catching and releasing a fish or not,
1781
01:55:46,560 --> 01:55:50,760
I mean, you're putting a poor animal through its bases for your enjoyment.
1782
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:51,760
Yeah.
1783
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:58,840
I mean, it, it doesn't really sort of, you know, go along with, with, you know, like
1784
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:02,080
a whole the ethos of, for instance, the National Park and so forth.
1785
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:07,280
So, you know, we really had to rethink our situation, you know, how we approach this
1786
01:56:07,280 --> 01:56:12,280
fishing thing and how we, yeah, how do we just approach things in general and how we
1787
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:15,200
can make a meaningful difference.
1788
01:56:15,200 --> 01:56:23,000
And so it's, you know, we sort of manage, but, but really, you know, when you now look
1789
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:29,560
at an expedition into the Jinko, it's no longer just a fishing expedition.
1790
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:34,520
I mean, it is, it is like the last of the great adventures.
1791
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:40,120
When you, you go in there and you are able to see something that you never would have
1792
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:46,000
seen in life, whether it be species of animals, whether it be fauna and flora, whether it
1793
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:48,800
be the protected area and so forth.
1794
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:54,200
I mean, whether it could be even the human effort of, of, of, of sort of protecting this
1795
01:56:54,200 --> 01:56:55,200
place.
1796
01:56:55,200 --> 01:57:01,360
And so you really, you realize that, that your, your ambition of coming and catching a
1797
01:57:01,360 --> 01:57:09,360
fish is, is, is so small in comparison to what really is happening and going on there.
1798
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:15,800
So, so, so yeah, it's a, you know, we've got a, we've got a great relationship with them
1799
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:16,800
now.
1800
01:57:16,800 --> 01:57:22,280
And I think that, you know, all of the people that I've subsequently taken back and, you
1801
01:57:22,280 --> 01:57:30,520
know, we recently did another expedition this year in their two week expedition stuff.
1802
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:35,840
That was a very, hugely successful one, but, you know, most of those clients and stuff that
1803
01:57:35,840 --> 01:57:41,680
we take in there become avid supporters of African parks, they, they end up making sizable
1804
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:44,240
donations.
1805
01:57:44,240 --> 01:57:50,400
And so, so it really is sort of, you know, the fishing trip is almost playing second
1806
01:57:50,400 --> 01:57:57,800
to raising an awareness and to showing how, you know, we could really, we can make a difference
1807
01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,960
as it's in the stuff.
1808
01:58:00,960 --> 01:58:08,480
And it really is, it's a, it's a, it's a difficult thing to discuss with people, you know, I
1809
01:58:08,480 --> 01:58:11,480
mean, you'll, you'll, you know, I get, I get lots of inquiries.
1810
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:13,040
I probably get, oh, I'm sure.
1811
01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:14,040
Yeah.
1812
01:58:14,040 --> 01:58:18,360
The website, I mean, I probably get about, I don't know, you know, six or seven people
1813
01:58:18,360 --> 01:58:23,600
asking me a week, you know, you know, can we go and what's this, say, trying to say,
1814
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:32,480
you know, and you, you, you soon realize just how far this is advanced beyond just the fishing
1815
01:58:32,480 --> 01:58:33,480
trip.
1816
01:58:33,480 --> 01:58:34,480
Yeah.
1817
01:58:34,480 --> 01:58:42,640
And, and, you know, like you need, yeah, there are a few things I think that some people
1818
01:58:42,640 --> 01:58:46,800
find very difficult to understand when I explain it to them and explain to them what it's going
1819
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:52,360
to take for us to actually go back in there and to go and successfully apply to basically
1820
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:54,960
do another expedition back into the Jinka.
1821
01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:55,960
Yeah.
1822
01:58:55,960 --> 01:59:02,320
Well, I guess if there's layers of challenge and logistically just for people to get in
1823
01:59:02,320 --> 01:59:09,840
there or I imagine some of those challenges at the very least probably filter out.
1824
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:14,840
I don't want to say this the wrong way, but ensure that the people with the right sort
1825
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:20,600
of ambition are the only ones left when you kind of, you know, get to the point that they're
1826
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:22,720
actually showing up.
1827
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:24,440
All right.
1828
01:59:24,440 --> 01:59:28,880
If it's that hard to get in there, at least it ensures that the caliber of person that's
1829
01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:34,800
coming in there is a good, you know, good character or not coming there to exploit things or not
1830
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:36,960
coming there to be disruptive.
1831
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:47,600
So, you know, you know, even if, even if, you know, I think I've got to be careful in,
1832
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:53,600
in confirming something like that, because it might sound like we're, you know, you know,
1833
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:55,840
we don't think that we're better than anyone.
1834
01:59:55,840 --> 01:59:56,840
Yeah.
1835
01:59:56,840 --> 02:00:01,000
We don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with what other people are doing and
1836
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:06,000
their pursuit to go and catch fish and maybe feed their fish to the locals after catching
1837
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:07,000
them and so forth.
1838
02:00:07,000 --> 02:00:17,080
But I mean, it's, yeah, there's definitely a sort of a, you have to undergo a significant
1839
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:24,360
mindset change to, to understand what it is that you're doing.
1840
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:27,200
It's no longer about the Goliath.
1841
02:00:27,200 --> 02:00:31,920
You know, if, if you're a person that just wanted to, to catch a Goliath and, you know,
1842
02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:38,480
then go on to the next trip and catch whatever else and stuff, it's not going to happen.
1843
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:39,480
You know what I mean?
1844
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:43,480
It's not like we're not going to allow you to come or anything like that.
1845
02:00:43,480 --> 02:00:49,000
It's just that once you, once you sort of realize what we're doing there and once you've
1846
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:53,400
been there, it changes, it changes your perspective on things and so forth.
1847
02:00:53,400 --> 02:00:59,320
And look, also it's, the price tag is pretty scary.
1848
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:04,760
I mean, it's, I would, I would venture to say that it's the most expensive fishing
1849
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:08,480
trip in the world at the moment.
1850
02:01:08,480 --> 02:01:13,320
There's, it's scary, you know, but.
1851
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:17,720
You know, a significant portion of that goes towards, towards conservation.
1852
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:24,120
You know, you've got to understand that we are the only people in there running, you
1853
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:31,440
know, an eco tour that, that, you know, we do one and if lucky two expeditions a year,
1854
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:35,000
only for four rods, only for four people.
1855
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:41,360
And so, so it is, it is unique in every sense of the word.
1856
02:01:41,360 --> 02:01:46,240
And, and, and I think that, you know, the long and short of it is that very few people
1857
02:01:46,240 --> 02:01:51,920
will ever actually see this place and will actually ever get to experience, you know,
1858
02:01:51,920 --> 02:01:57,200
catching a Goliath Tiger fish there on fly or so.
1859
02:01:57,200 --> 02:02:04,720
But every single one of those people will, you know, will, will have significant change
1860
02:02:04,720 --> 02:02:08,560
in their mindset and in the way that they look at things.
1861
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:09,560
Yeah.
1862
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:10,560
Yeah.
1863
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:12,560
That's, that's, that's awesome.
1864
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:13,560
Yeah.
1865
02:02:13,560 --> 02:02:17,400
I saw some quote that kind of, I actually wrote it down and like made me chuckle.
1866
02:02:17,400 --> 02:02:19,040
I guess it was directly quoting you.
1867
02:02:19,040 --> 02:02:22,400
I don't remember what article, I should have cited the article where I read this because
1868
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:26,960
I think it was someone else's words, but they quoted you as saying, I've just realized that
1869
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:30,680
I know more about fly fishing for Goliath than anyone on the planet.
1870
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:32,840
The trouble is I know almost nothing.
1871
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:38,240
I thought, what an interesting way to like look at things and an interesting position
1872
02:02:38,240 --> 02:02:40,280
to be in as an angler.
1873
02:02:40,280 --> 02:02:45,320
Like as we mentioned early in the conversation where I said, there's tens of millions of
1874
02:02:45,320 --> 02:02:46,920
fishermen on earth.
1875
02:02:46,920 --> 02:02:48,480
Who's ever been in that position?
1876
02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:49,480
It's crazy.
1877
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:56,000
But when I look at, now we're talking about Goliath expeditions and I think, you know,
1878
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:59,760
obviously I'll put the, the link of the website and all that stuff up in the show notes.
1879
02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:04,840
But when I was kind of perusing the website, you know, I saw images of other species of
1880
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:05,840
fish too.
1881
02:03:05,840 --> 02:03:12,840
Just to, you know, maybe, maybe segue out of the Goliath tiger fish, you know, with
1882
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:14,080
what time we have left.
1883
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:20,880
I mean, I could talk all day about these Goliaths, but I saw on the site, a species of catfish
1884
02:03:20,880 --> 02:03:26,480
that I've seen people try to catch, but never find big ones.
1885
02:03:26,480 --> 02:03:28,360
I think they're called a combo catfish.
1886
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:31,400
I mean, can you believe this fish?
1887
02:03:31,400 --> 02:03:34,560
I never even, I never knew it existed.
1888
02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:38,280
Same river or yeah, in the Ginkgo River.
1889
02:03:38,280 --> 02:03:40,560
This thing, oh my gosh.
1890
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:45,320
There are basically four giant species of fish in Africa, right?
1891
02:03:45,320 --> 02:03:46,320
Yeah.
1892
02:03:46,320 --> 02:03:51,200
Two of them scaled the Nile perch and the Goliath tiger fish.
1893
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:55,920
Then there are two other species that grow to an excess of 200 pounds, which is the
1894
02:03:55,920 --> 02:03:59,440
voodoo or the giant voodoo, the one from the Congo.
1895
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:06,960
And then this thing called the Kamba and I mean, it, like, it looks, you know, I've
1896
02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:10,960
caught Pirarara, which is the red tailed catfish, right?
1897
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:12,840
Out of the Amazon.
1898
02:04:12,840 --> 02:04:15,680
And so the Kamba looks like this thing, right?
1899
02:04:15,680 --> 02:04:18,360
It's got the same armor plated head.
1900
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:23,920
It's got the same, you know, very robust body and stuff, not the same color.
1901
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:27,160
It's got like the same color as a Piraiiba, right?
1902
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:33,520
And it, but it's got this completely the antithesis of a catfish shape from Africa.
1903
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:36,640
It's got like an Amazonian catfish.
1904
02:04:36,640 --> 02:04:41,280
And it also squeaks the way that a Pirarara, that the red tailed catfish does.
1905
02:04:41,280 --> 02:04:48,280
And I think I've sort of, I think they do it with their pectoral fins.
1906
02:04:48,280 --> 02:04:49,280
I do too.
1907
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:50,280
Yeah.
1908
02:04:50,280 --> 02:04:51,280
Can we cut those in?
1909
02:04:51,280 --> 02:04:52,600
It's like pigs, right?
1910
02:04:52,600 --> 02:04:53,600
You catch this thing.
1911
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,640
And you're going to go, what's that?
1912
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:57,640
Yeah.
1913
02:04:57,640 --> 02:05:00,040
And it does exactly that.
1914
02:05:00,040 --> 02:05:05,520
And so I had no idea this thing was, was, was in that river until we caught it that
1915
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:06,520
night.
1916
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,120
And what an enormous fish.
1917
02:05:08,120 --> 02:05:14,560
I mean, this thing literally, I mean, I was, I had a boat that I pulled up onto a sandbar
1918
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:16,760
because I was a little bit scared of crocodiles and stuff.
1919
02:05:16,760 --> 02:05:20,320
And at least the gunnels of the boat and so forth.
1920
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:23,840
And the next thing I hooked this fish, I can't see anything.
1921
02:05:23,840 --> 02:05:25,440
I didn't fish at night.
1922
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:29,520
There's a joke made in that video about me not fishing at night.
1923
02:05:29,520 --> 02:05:34,720
And I hooked this thing and I, and it pulls me down onto the gunnels.
1924
02:05:34,720 --> 02:05:38,640
My knees hit the gunnels and I'm just holding and I'm fishing with really strong terminal
1925
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:42,280
tackle, like a hundred and something pound terminal tackle.
1926
02:05:42,280 --> 02:05:44,720
Cause I thought that might be big, not a perch around.
1927
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:45,720
Yeah.
1928
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:51,440
And the next thing it pulls so hard that it pulls the boat off the sandbar and into the
1929
02:05:51,440 --> 02:05:52,440
pool.
1930
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:53,440
And I'm fighting this thing and stuff.
1931
02:05:53,440 --> 02:05:58,720
And I figured out this and when I got this fish into the shallow water and I approached
1932
02:05:58,720 --> 02:05:59,880
it, I was scared of it.
1933
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:01,520
I've never been scared.
1934
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:04,360
I didn't know what this thing was going to do.
1935
02:06:04,360 --> 02:06:06,240
And anyway, yeah.
1936
02:06:06,240 --> 02:06:11,840
And I can't remember what the scientific name for this fish is, but I mean, it's just enormous.
1937
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:17,920
And later on, you know, through aerial footage and stuff, I was able to find these things.
1938
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:22,320
You know, there's actually, there's a, I've got a small clip of the river where, you
1939
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:27,480
know, I hover above one of these things with a drone and it's sitting in shallow water.
1940
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:34,160
And there's actually a Goliath tiger fish just behind it, you know, on a gravel bar.
1941
02:06:34,160 --> 02:06:41,320
And so these things are targetable on fly, you know, we're going to figure it out.
1942
02:06:41,320 --> 02:06:43,800
And we're going to start catching these things on fly.
1943
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,480
We've already caught the voodoo on fly.
1944
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:52,440
I mean, the, the, the significant, the one, the most significant experience that I had
1945
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:58,120
with a giant voodoo, I refer to them specifically as giant voodoo because a voodoo, I think
1946
02:06:58,120 --> 02:07:04,760
is sort of a maximum size of about 70 kilos, like 150 or 160 pounds in this MPZ river and
1947
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:06,560
in other places and stuff.
1948
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:12,680
But in the Chinko and in the Congo, they can, they can attain 200 plus pounds, right?
1949
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:18,120
And we were going down the river and one of the things we're looking for were hippos as
1950
02:07:18,120 --> 02:07:19,120
well.
1951
02:07:19,120 --> 02:07:23,480
You know, we had to do a hippocound while we did this transect, you know, in our, in
1952
02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:25,400
our big expedition.
1953
02:07:25,400 --> 02:07:31,000
And so downstream of us, I see this hippo come up, like boil, as they do, you know, when
1954
02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:35,400
they, when they come up for air and I immediately said, oh, hippo hippo, right?
1955
02:07:35,400 --> 02:07:36,400
Yeah.
1956
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:42,400
And stop the boats and we look and we look and like, you know, we noticed, but I mean,
1957
02:07:42,400 --> 02:07:50,120
there's no hippo coming up again and that area looks very shallow, right?
1958
02:07:50,120 --> 02:07:54,240
And so we slowly start drifting towards the area again and I start making out that it's
1959
02:07:54,240 --> 02:07:55,240
very shallow.
1960
02:07:55,240 --> 02:07:59,520
I mean, it's about, you know, needy and there's a big sunken log.
1961
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:03,120
I mean, like a really big, you know, one of these, you know, forest trees that fell down,
1962
02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:07,480
obviously broke off into a big stump and there's the stump.
1963
02:08:07,480 --> 02:08:13,240
And I look and I go, that's not a sunken log.
1964
02:08:13,240 --> 02:08:19,760
And the next thing, this enormous, I couldn't believe the size of it, you know, I mean,
1965
02:08:19,760 --> 02:08:25,160
you know, it's like, that's how big they get, you know, and this thing comes up and boils
1966
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:30,080
up and takes a gulp of air and I realized that I'd actually mistaken as voodoo for
1967
02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:32,960
a hippo when it came up.
1968
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:34,040
Yeah, I'll leave.
1969
02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:35,040
My God.
1970
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:38,960
And I go, you know, and then notoriously difficult to catch on fly.
1971
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:43,480
I mean, there, you know, it's easy and it's an easy, it's almost impossible.
1972
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:45,360
But we know where that gets us, right?
1973
02:08:45,360 --> 02:08:52,040
So so Ed jumps out to hold the boat and I mean, I go and I take one cast and my fly
1974
02:08:52,040 --> 02:08:56,760
sinks down and my fly sinks down and it hits the sand in this current in front of this
1975
02:08:56,760 --> 02:08:59,640
voodoo and I'm thinking, well, what's good?
1976
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:03,920
And the next thing is voodoo just imm, it just mobilizes.
1977
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:10,280
It just gets up, looks at like, looks around and goes and just eats my fly.
1978
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:14,120
And well, I mean, that fight was over before it started.
1979
02:09:14,120 --> 02:09:20,000
I just, it just took over everything I had and I never saw that fish again.
1980
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:23,800
But I mean, that was a, that was more than a 200 pound fish.
1981
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:24,800
I couldn't.
1982
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:25,800
Oh my gosh.
1983
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:26,800
That's it.
1984
02:09:26,800 --> 02:09:32,960
You know, it's crazy to think that here's one river system that has all four, all four
1985
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:36,760
of the giant, all living together.
1986
02:09:36,760 --> 02:09:41,520
And at the shoots, you can jump across the river.
1987
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:43,640
It's just unbelievable.
1988
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:44,640
It's weird.
1989
02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:49,360
And it's just proof that that place has more secrets yet to reveal.
1990
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:54,720
But we discovered a new species of freshwater jellyfish there.
1991
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:56,000
No, interesting.
1992
02:09:56,000 --> 02:09:58,960
We discovered a new species of freshwater shrimp there.
1993
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:05,760
Terry, the guy I mentioned has, has by now documented more than a hundred species of
1994
02:10:05,760 --> 02:10:07,960
fish in that river.
1995
02:10:07,960 --> 02:10:08,960
Yeah.
1996
02:10:08,960 --> 02:10:14,560
So yeah, it's, you know, we don't know, we don't know where things are going to go.
1997
02:10:14,560 --> 02:10:20,160
You know, considering that, you know, we've got freshwater puffer fish we have, you know,
1998
02:10:20,160 --> 02:10:28,120
all sorts of those would, you know, you know, electric catfish, you know, I mean, those
1999
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:29,120
are interesting looking.
2000
02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:30,120
Yeah.
2001
02:10:30,120 --> 02:10:31,120
Yeah.
2002
02:10:31,120 --> 02:10:32,120
Yeah.
2003
02:10:32,120 --> 02:10:38,800
The species that, you know, we're still discovering, you know, like on a, on a, on a monthly basis,
2004
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:42,680
you know, Terry is going in there and he's discovering more and more species.
2005
02:10:42,680 --> 02:10:43,680
Yeah.
2006
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:44,880
It's, it's, it's wild.
2007
02:10:44,880 --> 02:10:50,080
It's those kinds of places are clearly vanishing, but it's, you know, I saw the image of the
2008
02:10:50,080 --> 02:10:56,560
the combo catfish, especially it's like, you see more photos online of the voodoo, but
2009
02:10:56,560 --> 02:11:01,200
you don't, it's like you hear how big they can get, but you rarely see photos that validate
2010
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:02,200
it.
2011
02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:05,080
But then the combo, I've only seen photos of small ones.
2012
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:09,640
So then the one on y'all's side, I think that might be the biggest, unless I just haven't
2013
02:11:09,640 --> 02:11:11,840
searched hard enough, but it looks enormous.
2014
02:11:11,840 --> 02:11:18,360
But I just, there's a handful of these freshwater fish, especially that are, that, that seem
2015
02:11:18,360 --> 02:11:20,600
like nobody's quite figured them out.
2016
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:22,200
Those are kind of in that category.
2017
02:11:22,200 --> 02:11:29,120
I just kind of wonder or if like how many more of these kind of final frontier type places
2018
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:30,120
are left.
2019
02:11:30,120 --> 02:11:37,160
I would, you know, I would probably throw maybe the King Barbas in there and that category,
2020
02:11:37,160 --> 02:11:43,480
at least the ones of that size category, the mangar, whatever you want to call them that
2021
02:11:43,480 --> 02:11:44,480
live in Iran and Afghanistan.
2022
02:11:44,480 --> 02:11:45,480
Yeah.
2023
02:11:45,480 --> 02:11:49,560
The mangar is a very, it's a fascinating species, isn't it?
2024
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:53,480
Every now and then you see those kind of poor quality photos or videos of those locals pulling
2025
02:11:53,480 --> 02:12:02,480
out these just, just preposterously enormous specimens, but I've yet to see a, a, a sport
2026
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:03,480
of mangar.
2027
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:04,480
Yeah.
2028
02:12:04,480 --> 02:12:07,480
The mangar was definitely, you know, that's a species high on my list.
2029
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:14,200
I think that my, the reason why I haven't gone, you know, for them is I think because
2030
02:12:14,200 --> 02:12:17,480
of the, the sort of the environment and things like that.
2031
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:23,600
I don't find the, the environment where they're caught very inspiring, you know, it looks
2032
02:12:23,600 --> 02:12:25,600
like you're on the surface of the moon.
2033
02:12:25,600 --> 02:12:27,800
There's this big lake that's got the joints.
2034
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:35,160
There was rumors of, of this old sultans palace that had a motor around it where these giant
2035
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:39,000
mangar were and they were fed and God, I don't know what.
2036
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:45,520
Sedoms, Sedoms Palace is when that area got, there's a lot of photos of US soldiers online
2037
02:12:45,520 --> 02:12:51,040
at those palace ponds catching these big mangar, but you know, those are like a stocked populations,
2038
02:12:51,040 --> 02:12:54,800
but then every now and then you see these photos of these, I actually saw one that was
2039
02:12:54,800 --> 02:12:55,800
disappointing.
2040
02:12:55,800 --> 02:13:00,440
Not that I should be disappointed what other people are doing, but you know, especially
2041
02:13:00,440 --> 02:13:03,880
since I'll probably never go there, but there's this video.
2042
02:13:03,880 --> 02:13:07,800
I think it was literally last week or the week before, I mean, this guy's got six of
2043
02:13:07,800 --> 02:13:13,480
them laid up on a rock bar, all of them, 150 pounds, 200 pound class giant.
2044
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:18,640
I'm like, oh my God, huge, huge, huge fish.
2045
02:13:18,640 --> 02:13:24,120
But I think it's kind of a similar thing where certain parts of, of the Congo may be or may
2046
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:33,680
have once been where it's so, it's like unstable or unsafe for political, you know, reasons
2047
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:34,680
maybe.
2048
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:42,360
I don't know about the, like, you know, it's relatively safe to go into, into various areas
2049
02:13:42,360 --> 02:13:43,360
of the Congo.
2050
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:51,880
And some, some of them you want to stay clear of, you know, but I, you know, I think that
2051
02:13:51,880 --> 02:13:57,320
one of the things that I'm, that really upsets me is the fact that, you know, the sort of
2052
02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:00,160
the US travel advisory, right?
2053
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:05,120
You know, I mean, if you look at it from the CAR's perspective, you know, you go onto the,
2054
02:14:05,120 --> 02:14:08,440
onto the site and it says, don't go to the CA.
2055
02:14:08,440 --> 02:14:09,440
I've seen it.
2056
02:14:09,440 --> 02:14:12,440
It says it about all, so many places it says that.
2057
02:14:12,440 --> 02:14:20,240
And then it says, and if you find yourself in the CAR, leave, you know, and not only
2058
02:14:20,240 --> 02:14:26,600
that also, but, you know, some time ago, there was a study done of, for instance, all of
2059
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:31,880
the different species and things in Africa with the, with the goal of aiding NGOs and
2060
02:14:31,880 --> 02:14:38,840
stuff to sort of appropriate, you know, money or, or to sort of designate money and funds.
2061
02:14:38,840 --> 02:14:46,640
And these scientists went and wholesale to clear central African Republic as devoid of
2062
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:53,040
fish, they declared the chinko devoid of fish and of animal species and so forth.
2063
02:14:53,040 --> 02:15:01,280
And so, so I'm really, I mean, I am, I'm infuriated by these ill-informed travel advisories
2064
02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:08,520
that are basically taking a, a, a country like the CAR that is now, you know, it's rising
2065
02:15:08,520 --> 02:15:14,720
up from this violent past from more than a decade ago, you know, and it, it's desperate
2066
02:15:14,720 --> 02:15:20,200
for the sort of attention that these sort of countries need from a tourism perspective,
2067
02:15:20,200 --> 02:15:23,200
from an investment perspective and so forth.
2068
02:15:23,200 --> 02:15:28,320
And here are these horribly ill-advised travel advisories, still saying, no, don't go, don't
2069
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:29,320
touch.
2070
02:15:29,320 --> 02:15:34,920
And at the same time, you've got these, these scientific journals saying it's devoid of
2071
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:39,000
species, forget it, spend your money elsewhere.
2072
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:44,400
And so it's making it really hard for us to sort of get proper funding and to get people
2073
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:48,480
in this group and to get them, and to get the sort of exposure that the Central African
2074
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:52,640
Republic really needs to rebuild itself.
2075
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:54,720
And I don't know what to do.
2076
02:15:54,720 --> 02:15:59,880
And I'm not quite sure who to speak to about this, but I mean, it's, it's, it's borderline
2077
02:15:59,880 --> 02:16:05,080
criminal, what they're doing to the potential investment and to the potential, you know,
2078
02:16:05,080 --> 02:16:09,520
tourism and stuff of this country that's so desperately, desperately needs it, you know.
2079
02:16:09,520 --> 02:16:10,520
Yeah.
2080
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:13,880
Yeah, I bet I feel sort of digging down that rabbit hole.
2081
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:19,080
That's probably a deep, deep, I don't know.
2082
02:16:19,080 --> 02:16:24,920
It is weird because yeah, yeah, that's beyond my level of comprehension.
2083
02:16:24,920 --> 02:16:28,560
I've seen the same thing when I'm researching places I'd like to travel and almost invariably
2084
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:30,800
all of them say that I'm like, what?
2085
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:35,040
I mean, is there anywhere other than America that's worth visiting?
2086
02:16:35,040 --> 02:16:36,040
According to this thing?
2087
02:16:36,040 --> 02:16:37,040
I mean, what am I looking at here?
2088
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:41,200
But yeah, that's, that's sad.
2089
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:44,680
It's sad that you kind of have to go see things for yourself, but then that's also, you know,
2090
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:50,400
you come back with a new perspective about now I need to start verifying things on my
2091
02:16:50,400 --> 02:16:55,080
own everywhere I go and all elements of life, which is a good thing to do anyway, instead
2092
02:16:55,080 --> 02:17:00,480
of blindly following, blindly trusting, blindly believing everything that you hear.
2093
02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:03,760
That transcends just fishing.
2094
02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:11,920
You know, I think this surprise, this may be near the end of the stuff I had to ask you.
2095
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:15,880
I've never asked anybody this question, but I always wanted to because it's something
2096
02:17:15,880 --> 02:17:17,120
that people ask me.
2097
02:17:17,120 --> 02:17:23,920
I'm going to try to figure out a way to formulate this question because you're a guy who's,
2098
02:17:23,920 --> 02:17:31,360
a guy who's done really interesting and awesome freshwater fishing and saltwater fishing.
2099
02:17:31,360 --> 02:17:37,080
You know, I sat and kind of entertained myself watching a few videos that featured you.
2100
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:42,440
One such video, I think you were in Argentina and you're like running along the bank and
2101
02:17:42,440 --> 02:17:44,280
you dive in the water after a capybara.
2102
02:17:44,280 --> 02:17:50,280
I'm like, this, this is a wild guy here, which is a very unique looking.
2103
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:51,800
That was a interesting area.
2104
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:57,320
I don't want to go down the rabbit hole necessarily and open up, you know, eat up more of your
2105
02:17:57,320 --> 02:17:59,400
time, but I looked at that area.
2106
02:17:59,400 --> 02:18:02,760
I'm like, it looks like the, at first, at first, the opening part of that video, I thought
2107
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:07,160
you were in the Everglades, just the marshy, the marshy area.
2108
02:18:07,160 --> 02:18:11,240
But anyway, so you've gone to these areas and you've caught very unique freshwater fish
2109
02:18:11,240 --> 02:18:16,840
and very unique saltwater fish, very sporty saltwater fish, Marlin.
2110
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:21,720
I mean, the things that you've done, the seychelles, which is just, I mean, you talk about a dream
2111
02:18:21,720 --> 02:18:28,680
location, but there's this idea, there's this consensus that, well, saltwater fish, they're
2112
02:18:28,680 --> 02:18:33,680
bigger, they're faster, they're more beautiful, they're, they're better and superior in every
2113
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:37,840
way from the way that they taste it to everything, which is, you know, of course, granted, this
2114
02:18:37,840 --> 02:18:43,040
is opinion based, but this is, you know, I have most of my experience of leaned into the
2115
02:18:43,040 --> 02:18:44,680
freshwater thing.
2116
02:18:44,680 --> 02:18:49,720
I have my own personal reasons for that, I think.
2117
02:18:49,720 --> 02:18:53,320
But people always ask me, well, why don't, you know, why do you do so much, if you're
2118
02:18:53,320 --> 02:18:56,840
going to travel, why don't you do more saltwater fishing?
2119
02:18:56,840 --> 02:19:02,360
What, you know, in your experience in saltwater fishing and freshwater fishing, I mean, what
2120
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:06,360
are you deriving from the two that's different?
2121
02:19:06,360 --> 02:19:13,160
That, because I think that you get a different, obviously uniquely different experience and
2122
02:19:13,160 --> 02:19:20,200
you, you know, you come away with different takeaways from both, but I don't know, for
2123
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:25,120
you, for, you know, the things that drive you to go catch tarp and I imagine are different
2124
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:29,680
than the things that would drive you to go somewhere to catch the Colorado.
2125
02:19:29,680 --> 02:19:34,040
I get it, and I often think of people ask me, what is my preference?
2126
02:19:34,040 --> 02:19:40,840
And I think that you've listed all of my preferences as well, you know, from a saltwater, saltwater
2127
02:19:40,840 --> 02:19:46,520
fishing perspective, you know, the environment, I mean, it's pinacaladas under palm trees,
2128
02:19:46,520 --> 02:19:51,040
you know, with these beautiful silver fish that, you know, not that a tarp and tastes
2129
02:19:51,040 --> 02:19:56,360
good, but, you know, anything else, you know, tastes, tastes great, you know, sashimi right
2130
02:19:56,360 --> 02:20:03,360
there, you know, I mean, wonderful weather, you know, beautiful colors, reefs, interesting
2131
02:20:03,360 --> 02:20:11,040
speed, I mean, yeah, saltwater fishing or fly fishing is definitely, I mean, it's, it
2132
02:20:11,040 --> 02:20:13,360
is a preference.
2133
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:23,480
It's my preference, but I, there are no good life tiger fish in the salt, you know.
2134
02:20:23,480 --> 02:20:32,600
So I think, I think maybe that's also what I really just, why that fish inspired me so
2135
02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:40,560
much is because I definitely have a preference for the salt, but this fish, this one is,
2136
02:20:40,560 --> 02:20:49,720
it tops it, it tops all of the kind of thing, you know, it is, it, you know, just from how
2137
02:20:49,720 --> 02:20:55,000
mysterious it is, the area in which it is, the, you know, the fact that, you know, I'm
2138
02:20:55,000 --> 02:21:00,960
from Africa and that I love Africa so much and that it's unexplored, you know, I mean,
2139
02:21:00,960 --> 02:21:05,920
tell me what's unexplored about a tarpon and about a blue marlin and about all of these
2140
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:06,920
fish.
2141
02:21:06,920 --> 02:21:11,960
I mean, is there actually anything unexplored, you know, sure, the deepest, the deepest,
2142
02:21:11,960 --> 02:21:16,760
the marinara trench and those places are unexplored, but I mean, you know, we've seen footage from
2143
02:21:16,760 --> 02:21:20,760
submarines go down there, nothing down there really interests me.
2144
02:21:20,760 --> 02:21:21,760
There's nothing to be found.
2145
02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:26,080
There's nothing that I can go and experience there.
2146
02:21:26,080 --> 02:21:33,920
You know, there might be one or two, two atolls in the world that are, that are not kind of
2147
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:38,960
as well documented as others, but honestly, what am I going to go and discover in the
2148
02:21:38,960 --> 02:21:39,960
salt?
2149
02:21:39,960 --> 02:21:46,320
I don't think there's anything, you know, I went to a bunch of places, you know, I've
2150
02:21:46,320 --> 02:21:51,360
been to the infamous Bassist India, which is, which is in the Mozambique channel, which
2151
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:57,400
is really, really difficult to go to and a treacherous atoll to go to.
2152
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:04,120
I, you know, obviously we explored the seychelles and some of the more unfished atolls and reefs
2153
02:22:04,120 --> 02:22:08,440
and atolls of the seychelles.
2154
02:22:08,440 --> 02:22:13,040
And I, you know, I've got my radar, you know, they wanted to place this on my radar and so
2155
02:22:13,040 --> 02:22:20,600
that I'd still like to go and see or try and explore, but I'm not hopeful of finding
2156
02:22:20,600 --> 02:22:23,200
something new.
2157
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:27,960
If you know, the nice thing about that, I think that fresh water offers us, especially
2158
02:22:27,960 --> 02:22:33,400
in the unexplored, you know, cavities of the, of, of Central Africa and even in the Amazon
2159
02:22:33,400 --> 02:22:38,240
and in places like that is that there are truly things left to explore.
2160
02:22:38,240 --> 02:22:39,240
Yeah.
2161
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:40,400
Places to bomb and so forth.
2162
02:22:40,400 --> 02:22:45,280
You know, most of your, most of your great discoveries like Tumani for the, for the, for
2163
02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:54,160
the, for the Dorado and like places like the Tugur for the Taiman and things like that.
2164
02:22:54,160 --> 02:22:58,800
You know, they, these are some of the more recent, you know, findings and things that
2165
02:22:58,800 --> 02:22:59,800
we found.
2166
02:22:59,800 --> 02:23:03,360
And like we're talking about the, the mangar.
2167
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:09,120
And so there's somebody maybe like me that has got his heart set on finding that place
2168
02:23:09,120 --> 02:23:12,040
where the mangar is and lives and so on.
2169
02:23:12,040 --> 02:23:16,240
I see now they now have a, you know, Himalayan adventures and stuff.
2170
02:23:16,240 --> 02:23:22,040
I've got these, these trips going into, um, Wutan for the, for the golden moss here.
2171
02:23:22,040 --> 02:23:23,040
Yeah.
2172
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:24,960
So, so I think that's it.
2173
02:23:24,960 --> 02:23:31,520
I think maybe the one thing that fresh has over the salt is unexplored spaces.
2174
02:23:31,520 --> 02:23:32,520
Yeah.
2175
02:23:32,520 --> 02:23:36,080
Which is weird to think given how vast the oceans are.
2176
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:37,080
I don't know.
2177
02:23:37,080 --> 02:23:39,600
I mean, I guess the best answer is enjoy both of them.
2178
02:23:39,600 --> 02:23:40,600
Yeah.
2179
02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:44,360
I think I've got different reasons, but, uh, you know, what I've always tried to tell people
2180
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:50,720
is like, I tend to favor the large and the unique freshwater fish, which just seem to
2181
02:23:50,720 --> 02:23:54,480
be less and less over time.
2182
02:23:54,480 --> 02:23:59,400
But it's also like when you think about the ocean, there's this, there's an expectation
2183
02:23:59,400 --> 02:24:03,640
even among people who have nothing to do with fishing, that that's where the sea monsters
2184
02:24:03,640 --> 02:24:04,640
live.
2185
02:24:04,640 --> 02:24:11,560
It's like, um, it's not out of the realm of the imagination that's, that's something
2186
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:18,640
unique lives in the ocean, but, um, that, that's not as much the case with fresh water.
2187
02:24:18,640 --> 02:24:26,560
So in some weird regard, a fish like an alligator gar is, is just seems more, I don't know.
2188
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:29,440
That's when I try to articulate this to people.
2189
02:24:29,440 --> 02:24:30,440
That's what I try to say.
2190
02:24:30,440 --> 02:24:32,000
I mean, we drink fresh water.
2191
02:24:32,000 --> 02:24:33,920
We interact with fresh water.
2192
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:35,920
It's familiar to us.
2193
02:24:35,920 --> 02:24:43,820
So the idea that something nightmarish, like a Goliath tiger fish is, is, is in such proximity
2194
02:24:43,820 --> 02:24:48,040
to where we live and the things that we interact with is not, it's, I don't know.
2195
02:24:48,040 --> 02:24:49,800
It's that we don't think about that.
2196
02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:50,800
It's, it's different.
2197
02:24:50,800 --> 02:24:53,000
It's, I don't know.
2198
02:24:53,000 --> 02:24:58,040
It's, it's not really too surprised by seeing something with big sharp teeth living in the
2199
02:24:58,040 --> 02:25:03,440
ocean, but when it's in the river down the street or it's a river that's adjacent to
2200
02:25:03,440 --> 02:25:08,920
where a community or a tribe or a whatever lives, it's like, whoa, that's, that's different.
2201
02:25:08,920 --> 02:25:10,080
That's, that's unique.
2202
02:25:10,080 --> 02:25:13,360
But, um, yeah, it's, it's an interesting topic.
2203
02:25:13,360 --> 02:25:16,640
The best answer though, I love saltwater fishing too.
2204
02:25:16,640 --> 02:25:19,280
The real answer is maybe it's just an issue of accessibility.
2205
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:25,800
I got to get my funds together and myself a boat or something like that.
2206
02:25:25,800 --> 02:25:33,200
But anyway, man, well, friends, well, I've eaten up more than two hours of your time.
2207
02:25:33,200 --> 02:25:36,320
Um, you know, it tends to go that way when you're really enjoying the conversation.
2208
02:25:36,320 --> 02:25:41,200
I don't put time limits on these things, but at the same time, um, you know, I don't want
2209
02:25:41,200 --> 02:25:43,160
it, I don't want to eat up all your time.
2210
02:25:43,160 --> 02:25:47,600
I guess, uh, you've, you've done a lot and I actually, I wanted to talk about some of
2211
02:25:47,600 --> 02:25:50,080
your photography, but you know, people can go see that.
2212
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:55,920
I tell you, I really appreciate and admire somebody that has a real knack for the art
2213
02:25:55,920 --> 02:26:01,440
of photography and, and some of the images that you take, what I love are, aren't just
2214
02:26:01,440 --> 02:26:03,240
the, the photos of the fish.
2215
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:07,960
Like you, you've done a great job and, um, all the socials and things that you have,
2216
02:26:07,960 --> 02:26:12,560
videos, socials of, of capturing everything that's around you.
2217
02:26:12,560 --> 02:26:18,040
Um, but where can I guess that where I would end is like, where can, where can people see
2218
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:23,680
some of the stuff that you do, whether it be the Goliath expeditions, maybe a website.
2219
02:26:23,680 --> 02:26:26,840
I don't know if y'all do YouTube, any of the Instagram.
2220
02:26:26,840 --> 02:26:31,880
I've got a YouTube channel where, you know, I've just got about six or so videos that
2221
02:26:31,880 --> 02:26:37,680
I sort of compiled, um, uh, of some of the places that I've been, you know, Russian,
2222
02:26:37,680 --> 02:26:42,440
um, salmon and, you know, GTs in the South African surf and like the Goliath Tiger fish.
2223
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:45,840
I mean, there's a small little sort of teaser on that.
2224
02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:51,080
Uh, and then, uh, you know, Goliath expeditions is solely dedicated to the, to the Goliath
2225
02:26:51,080 --> 02:26:52,080
Tiger fish.
2226
02:26:52,080 --> 02:26:59,760
I do have a, my Instagram, uh, Fran Bow fly fishing, um, which I'm sure you've seen.
2227
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:02,920
I don't know if you can link in the podcast.
2228
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:03,920
Yep.
2229
02:27:03,920 --> 02:27:10,440
You know, that's got a, you know, a reasonably a good library, uh, and so forth of, of my
2230
02:27:10,440 --> 02:27:12,320
photographs and things.
2231
02:27:12,320 --> 02:27:18,680
Um, but I haven't really got a place that showcased, uh, you know, the sort of what you've just
2232
02:27:18,680 --> 02:27:23,760
mentioned, you know, the, the extras, you know, all of the beautiful landscape photography
2233
02:27:23,760 --> 02:27:24,760
and things like that.
2234
02:27:24,760 --> 02:27:29,080
You know, I've written numerous articles for magazines over the years that also tried
2235
02:27:29,080 --> 02:27:30,080
to capture that.
2236
02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:35,760
Um, I've also managed quite a few, uh, lodges and things as social media.
2237
02:27:35,760 --> 02:27:41,560
And, you know, they've got a lot of my stuff on social media, not, not necessarily the easiest
2238
02:27:41,560 --> 02:27:43,600
to find, but it's a good point.
2239
02:27:43,600 --> 02:27:48,600
You know, I should, I should perhaps, you know, put some of my, some of my photography more,
2240
02:27:48,600 --> 02:27:50,360
more, uh, accessible.
2241
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:51,920
Well, uh, caution people.
2242
02:27:51,920 --> 02:27:56,600
If you Google Francois Bow, though, you might just find a bunch of old Mike Tyson boxing
2243
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:57,600
clips.
2244
02:27:57,600 --> 02:28:00,600
So I was like, wait a minute.
2245
02:28:00,600 --> 02:28:01,600
Yeah.
2246
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:03,600
That name sounded familiar.
2247
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:05,600
Oh, well, yeah.
2248
02:28:05,600 --> 02:28:10,960
He was, he was our biggest export with my name and with my name type in fishing afterwards
2249
02:28:10,960 --> 02:28:11,960
and you'll be fine.
2250
02:28:11,960 --> 02:28:14,560
Yeah, I guess that's probably what's got you in Mexico right now.
2251
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:15,960
You're in Mexico right now, right?
2252
02:28:15,960 --> 02:28:16,960
Yeah.
2253
02:28:16,960 --> 02:28:17,960
Um, is that that Palometa club?
2254
02:28:17,960 --> 02:28:20,960
I don't know if I'm saying that right.
2255
02:28:20,960 --> 02:28:21,960
So I saw that.
2256
02:28:21,960 --> 02:28:22,960
I saw you now.
2257
02:28:22,960 --> 02:28:24,960
In the Ascension Bay.
2258
02:28:24,960 --> 02:28:30,960
So we're the sort of premier permit fishing destination in the world.
2259
02:28:30,960 --> 02:28:33,960
Um, and Mexico currently residing here with my wife.
2260
02:28:33,960 --> 02:28:40,200
She and I managed the Palometa club and, um, you know, we're also a fantastic, uh, tarpon
2261
02:28:40,200 --> 02:28:42,200
fishing fishery as well.
2262
02:28:42,200 --> 02:28:43,200
Yeah.
2263
02:28:43,200 --> 02:28:49,200
And, uh, yeah, uh, an amazing place to live in a small town called Punta Alén in, uh,
2264
02:28:49,200 --> 02:28:51,640
in the Sion Khan Biosphere Reserve.
2265
02:28:51,640 --> 02:28:55,760
And, uh, it really is a, it's a, it's a remarkable place.
2266
02:28:55,760 --> 02:29:02,640
And, you know, I now am feasting on the saltwater fishing and catching basically big tarpon and
2267
02:29:02,640 --> 02:29:07,680
permit all on, um, you know, this year, my, my big thing is to try and get a big permit
2268
02:29:07,680 --> 02:29:09,280
and a big tarpon on my paddleboard.
2269
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:11,000
Uh, love fishing from a paddleboard.
2270
02:29:11,000 --> 02:29:16,360
And it actually offers a significant additional challenge on a paddleboard.
2271
02:29:16,360 --> 02:29:17,360
Yeah.
2272
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:21,640
Trying to catch a little bit more of tarpon to also have to maneuver this boat and to
2273
02:29:21,640 --> 02:29:25,920
also have to get the physical exertion to try and get somewhere.
2274
02:29:25,920 --> 02:29:28,920
And you're just a little south of Tulum, right?
2275
02:29:28,920 --> 02:29:29,920
Correct.
2276
02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:30,920
Yeah.
2277
02:29:30,920 --> 02:29:31,920
Yeah.
2278
02:29:31,920 --> 02:29:33,920
Well, my wife keeps my wife keeps saying she wants to go to Tulum.
2279
02:29:33,920 --> 02:29:35,760
So maybe I'll, maybe I'll.
2280
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:36,760
Yeah.
2281
02:29:36,760 --> 02:29:37,760
You should come and look us up.
2282
02:29:37,760 --> 02:29:42,720
I mean, I try to go to her and to let me travel a little further south, but, uh,
2283
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:43,720
Absolutely.
2284
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:44,720
You should come.
2285
02:29:44,720 --> 02:29:51,480
I mean, really, I think as a fishery, um, as a fly fishery as well, this is, you know,
2286
02:29:51,480 --> 02:29:52,960
the ascension based cuttle.
2287
02:29:52,960 --> 02:29:57,880
I mean, it's got your most sought after species like your, your tarpon, bonefish, permit and
2288
02:29:57,880 --> 02:29:58,880
snook.
2289
02:29:58,880 --> 02:30:05,160
Um, you know, the, the, the fisheries beautifully intact, you know, our tarpon, our migratory
2290
02:30:05,160 --> 02:30:08,040
tarpon are still high, happy and hungry.
2291
02:30:08,040 --> 02:30:09,800
I mean, they'll eat your phone.
2292
02:30:09,800 --> 02:30:11,640
If you could put a hook through it.
2293
02:30:11,640 --> 02:30:12,640
Um, yes.
2294
02:30:12,640 --> 02:30:17,800
So, and you know, we'll, you know, we've got, you know, we see hundreds and hundreds of
2295
02:30:17,800 --> 02:30:21,080
permit each day, whether you can make one eat is a different story.
2296
02:30:21,080 --> 02:30:23,360
Well I'm not the most polished fly angler.
2297
02:30:23,360 --> 02:30:24,360
Unfortunately.
2298
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:28,680
That's, it's another skill in my arsenal that I've allowed to get rusty, but I need,
2299
02:30:28,680 --> 02:30:34,760
I need to brush that off and maybe try to catch something a little easier first and work
2300
02:30:34,760 --> 02:30:37,160
my way up to something like that.
2301
02:30:37,160 --> 02:30:41,080
But um, yeah, man, France, well, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
2302
02:30:41,080 --> 02:30:42,080
Thank you very much.
2303
02:30:42,080 --> 02:30:44,080
I really enjoyed it too.
2304
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:46,240
The trip down memory lane for me.
2305
02:30:46,240 --> 02:30:47,240
Yeah.
2306
02:30:47,240 --> 02:30:53,800
Well, it's inspiring for me because as I said, it's a species of fish that, uh, I don't know,
2307
02:30:53,800 --> 02:30:59,240
it's just kind of blocked out any, I don't know, any space for other stuff at the, at
2308
02:30:59,240 --> 02:31:00,240
the time being.
2309
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:06,480
I don't know what avenue that I'll go necessarily to catch one, uh, but it's, it's one I hope
2310
02:31:06,480 --> 02:31:07,480
to make happen.
2311
02:31:07,480 --> 02:31:12,000
It, if things stay on course potentially in the next year or two, but, but we'll see
2312
02:31:12,000 --> 02:31:13,000
how that plays out.
2313
02:31:13,000 --> 02:31:15,200
I've got some interesting ideas for you.
2314
02:31:15,200 --> 02:31:16,520
We can, we can chat about that.
2315
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:17,520
Yeah.
2316
02:31:17,520 --> 02:31:19,480
We can bounce ideas off, off, off record.
2317
02:31:19,480 --> 02:31:22,160
I would love that because I'm sure you have a lot of inside information.
2318
02:31:22,160 --> 02:31:28,520
It's as you know, very hard to find, uh, much, much data points on, on that species of fish
2319
02:31:28,520 --> 02:31:29,520
or locations.
2320
02:31:29,520 --> 02:31:32,720
Anyway, friends, so all men, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
2321
02:31:32,720 --> 02:31:36,000
And, uh, yeah, let's, let's stay in touch off the record.
2322
02:31:36,000 --> 02:31:37,000
Okay.
2323
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:38,000
Fantastic.
2324
02:31:38,000 --> 02:31:39,000
Thank you very much.
2325
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:40,000
David, really appreciate it.
2326
02:31:40,000 --> 02:31:41,000
All right, man.
2327
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:42,000
Have a good one.
2328
02:31:42,000 --> 02:31:43,000
Nice to meet you.
2329
02:31:43,000 --> 02:31:45,680
Thank you for listening to boundless pursuit.
2330
02:31:45,680 --> 02:31:50,040
Tune in each week as we bring stories and insight from uniquely talented anglers and
2331
02:31:50,040 --> 02:31:51,040
outdoorsmen.
2332
02:31:51,040 --> 02:31:54,080
And if you enjoyed this show, I want to hear from you.
2333
02:31:54,080 --> 02:31:57,920
Be sure to leave a five star review as this is going to drive the growth and exposure
2334
02:31:57,920 --> 02:31:59,080
of this show.
2335
02:31:59,080 --> 02:32:02,760
And if you have feedback or guest suggestions, I would love to hear from you.
2336
02:32:02,760 --> 02:32:07,240
And you can reach me at boundless pursuit fishing at gmail.com.
2337
02:32:07,240 --> 02:32:32,920
For all other collections of media and contact information, please visit www.boundless-pursuit.com.
