speaker-0: Star Trek, the ultimate franchise. These are the voyages of three veteran Trekkies, Rich, Ian, and Toby. Their ongoing mission: to explore the vast Star Trek universe, to seek out new perspectives and fresh debates. To boldly go where no podcast has gone before. Beyond the final frontier. Yeah.
speaker-1: Welcome to Beyond the Final Frontier, a Star Trek podcast with me, your host Rich Matthews, and my fellow Voyagers, Mr. Ian Speller
speaker-0: Hey there everybody.
speaker-1: and Mr. Toby Weidman. Today's episode, we're gonna be calling for the arch, and it's time to do our top 7 holodeck and holo suite episodes across all Star Trek series.
speaker-2: I've got a question for you right at the start. Do you think this is a controversial subject? Cause when I was like looking at forums and things like that, it seems to be very divisive amongst
speaker-1: Fans.
speaker-2: Some seem to really hate holodeck stories, and I was just wondering, I don't know, is it is it the fantasy element they don't like? Is it too gimmicky?
speaker-1: That's an interesting question.
speaker-0: It's fantasti it it it is fantasy within fantasy, and some people don't appreciate that. They look at it as a storytelling shortcut. And I get that. On the other hand, it lets the the shows do things that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do, from fun costumes to letting the actors do things that they wouldn't normally get to do. It's a very cool storytelling device that, if not overused, I think is has real value to it.
speaker-1: It's also very Star Trek. I mean l our our issue with Strange New World is partly because they don't have the holodeck. And they even tried to introduce a prototype to try and get round the fact that they just have to throw them onto planets with fairy tales on rather than have someone playing in a fairy tale environment in the holodeck. And I think it's one of the things that has created that problematic thing 'cause they want to do that.
speaker-0: Guys guys, maybe the whole show is a holodeck.
speaker-1: Whoa
speaker-0: Maybe that explains the puppets and everything else. Wait.
speaker-2: Do we think the final episode will have Jonathan Frakes and Marina Certis coming and
speaker-1: Did
speaker-0: Guys, that would mean meta and genius. And it's not gonna happen.
speaker-1: I'd reevaluate the whole show if that's what they do.
speaker-0: If they had balls to do that, I would A laugh out loud and B be very impressed and entertained.
speaker-1: Yeah, me too, me too. Well, interesting that you interrupted Toby because in an off pod conversation you said you're very confident in predicting mine and Ian's number ones.
speaker-2: I think so, yeah.
speaker-1: Because of that, I'm gonna ask you to go first.
speaker-0: I was gonna say tell us what you think it is.
speaker-1: Well not yet.
speaker-0: No, I wanna know.
speaker-2: saying up front or or should I maybe I should write it down on a bit of paper and then at the end r rever
speaker-1: Yeah, and then hold it up when we get there. Yeah.
speaker-2: Okay. Give me two seconds.
speaker-1: Please hold while Toby writes down his guesses.
speaker-2: Written down.
speaker-1: Okay. Toby has written down his guesses for our top spot holiday episodes, mine and Ian's. But I still think it means you should start, 'cause you're so confident.
speaker-2: It was interesting when I was putting this list together because I think I always thought that Next Generation was the one which dominated with holodeck stories. Yeah. But
speaker-1: Novelty.
speaker-2: my list is actually there are more Voyager episodes than any other series. So I wonder whether that is I mean, I I guess it was used as a way of escapism in Voyager. I will say that my favorite holodeck moment is When Scotty revisits the original Enterprise in in Relics. I mean, that's just one of my favorite moments in the whole of Star Trek. My first pick is a Voyager story. It's nothing human from Voyager Season 5, written by Jerry Taylor and directed by David Livingstone. While I was very tempted to include season six Pathfinder in this spot, it just got bumped because While I think Pathfinder is a more entertaining hour than this one, I kinda don't really consider it a Voyager episode. It it's like a Reg Barclay story. He does interact with the Voyager crew, but it's all fabricated. It's all like from files and they're even wearing different outfits. So I picked this one because I think it poses a really profound question. Should you use unethical research and the conclusions of Experimentation on humans to save the life of another. This has been a big topic of discussion and debate for decades, really since the creation of the Nuremberg Code following the trials after World War Two. I just think they do a really good job confronting that dilemma. Guest star David Clennan is fantastic as the Cardassian doctor stroke surgeon Krell Massett and he works really well with. Robert Picardo as as the doctor. Basic story is a big rubber insect alien attaches itself to Balana and the only way that they can try and get the creature to stop killing her
speaker-1: You and your love of great big rubbery aliens attaching themselves to to crew members is kinda s frightening me now.
speaker-2: So there you go. So the Doctor recreates Krell Masset on the holodeck and uses the conclusions he got from experimenting on Badurans in order to formulate a plan on how to get the creature to detach itself from Bellana and it causes all kinds of controversy. Clearly Masset is based on the horrific Joseph Mengela. But it poses a really difficult ethical dilemma in a very Star Trek way, especially relating to the things like the needs of the many. You know, where do you draw that line? And I found the resolution very interesting i in terms of Janeway kind of backs out of making the call. Like she makes the call for them to proceed, but then whether to delete the program is put in the hands of the doctor. You would think Janeway would be the person who who makes that call, but she leaves it to doctor to make the decision and ultimately he does delete the program and I think it's very satisfying from a viewer point of view. But there's a great scene where Jane Wake does go and talk to Balano afterwards and says, Look, I made the choice. It's my call. If you hate me, I understand. And Balano is properly upset by it. It's a very interesting episode. It's one I I wasn't really considering before and then I when I revisited it for this episode I I found myself really enjoying that One other point, it was Jerry Taylor's last writing credit before she retired.
speaker-1: good one to bow out on. Hmm. It's an interesting choice. As you said, there's a surprisingly long list of holodeck episodes, especially from Voyager. And this one didn't make it onto my long list, but Pathfinder did.
speaker-2: I rewatched Bath and it and it's a great episode. It's r it's really fun.
speaker-1: I'd say my number seven, I've got a similar one which almost made it on and then ultimately was more like relics, but slightly longer. But for similar reasons I didn't include one one zero zero one one zero zero zero one one zero zero whatever it is. Because although Minuet is part of the episode, it's more the sort of B story to occupy away from the main and and it didn't feel quite as full throatedly holodeck to me. But that would have been on the list if it if it had felt More central, I think. So my number seven kind of mirrors yours in that it's a holodecker's research tool episode. It's Booby Trap. Season three, episode six of Starship Next Generation, aka the one where Geordie falls in love with a holographic version of Leah Brahms, who we later find out is much nicer and gentler and more Geordie friendly than the real person. And it's that the Enterprise is trapped in an asteroid field and it's got all sorts of gravity things. It means if they try to do anything to escape, it just tightens the grip and every they're gonna run out time to escape. And so to work out what's going on and how to find a a technological way through, Geordie goes onto the holodeck, recreates the Mars Planetia design lab so that he can work through the the specs and the the logistics of the problem with Dr. Leah Brahms, the woman who designed the Enterprise. Framing that is Geordie's series long struggle, romantic struggles with women. I love this episode for a variety of reasons. And it's again, I guess it mirrors the Minuet one in the sense of it's someone becoming infatuated with the holographic program. Except this one, unlike Minuet, who was a sort of extra-level hologram deliberately by the binars to deceive and draw attention away from their work, this one is purely a enterprise computer creation, but nonetheless appeals to all the things that floats George's boat and it becomes an interesting emotional episode rather than what initially felt like a a fairly what you thought were in for a fairly conventional escape from a problem episode and it's not. It's not procedural. It's it's an emotional one as much as it's anything else. And and it's just really nice. And I think that Susan Gibney is really, really wonderful as Leah Brahms. Now she was in the running four who was she in the running for in
speaker-0: I wanna say chain wet.
speaker-1: It's someone big, wasn't it? It was a major cast member and she was almost cast. And you can see why. She's really, really good. And she cropped up again in Deep Space Nine double episode, Home Front. And it was nice to see her back. And interesting, not with any appliances, just the actor. Which is kinda cool and unusual.
speaker-0: Yes, it was Susan Gibney who was up for the role of Jane Way and the producers and the studio decided she was just too young.
speaker-1: Fair enough, fair enough. It would have been very interesting to see how how that would have panned out. Would have been very different chainway.
speaker-2: My comment on that is is I think the big difference is is Minuet is a fantasy figure. Yes. Whereas Leah Brahms is based on a real person. And I think you're a bit harsh on the real Leah Brahms when she shows up because I think she has good reason to be abrasive. She doesn't know Geordie whereas he feels like they have a relationship.
speaker-1: No he comes off pervey, don't get me wrong.
speaker-0: Little a little stalkerish, yes.
speaker-2: He's created a version of her to play with in the holodeck. It's that's really
speaker-1: When she turns it on, the the program does basically go, Hydro ID. So we're
speaker-2: Yeah. Exactly.
speaker-1: like, Wow, why did it start that bitch?
speaker-0: Me start with this. I ended up surprising myself because most of my picks for top seven are entertainment episodes rather than thoughtful reflective episodes. But Pathfinder was actually my number eleven. And I also cut down from Fistful of Datas, Worst Case Scenario, and Elementary Deer Data ended up at my number eight. So if we go to my number seven, you can't get much more entertaining than Bride of Chaotica.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-2: I'm just gonna tell you, Ian, it's my number six.
speaker-0: There you go. I find it a very fun, entertaining arc within the show to that they they followed through on this. Bright of Chaotica is the pinnacle of that whole arc. The black and white photography is absolutely gorgeous. The Satan's robot and Dr. Chaotica are just great characters. I grew up loving the old black and white Flash Gordon with Buster Crab
speaker-2: But Rogers.
speaker-0: and Buck Rogers, yep. It was just so much fun. It looked great. It looked cheesy. It looked noir. It you know, Kate's costume was just absolutely ridiculous, and she really went for it as arachnea. Normally she is the authority figure when we meet her in pretty much every situation. And here Kate and the character really got to get loose and let loose. I thought Martin Rainer was terrific as Doctor Chaotica.
speaker-2: Agreed.
speaker-0: I thought they had really Good chemistry. And then I would tip my cap to Alan Quaker, who was the director, and Marvin Rush, the cinematographer on it, did a great job. It was Richard James who designed the sets, and you had Bob Blackman who did the costumes. Kudos to all of them. That is one where all of it came together. Script, the performances by Garrett and Robbie are fun. Kate steals the show. Raynor is the guest star.
speaker-2: Tim Russ is great in it as well.
speaker-1: Great ensemble episode in general.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was good for everybody to kind of cut loose. I enjoy the episode and I thought it was gonna wind up higher on my list, which is a little surprising, only because it means that there are several other episodes that I even found more entertaining. You'll you can tell from my list that I'm a big fan of the the fun holodeck episodes and you'll you'll see that in a bit, especially when we get to my tie. I didn't want to disappoint you.
speaker-2: Chaoticate is in my sixth bot. Just to add that the the writer is Brian Fuller and Michael Taylor. So we've talked a lot about gimmick episodes and this is unarguably a gimmick episode.
speaker-1: Well, in the underrated episode I championed it as and that's where we had a conversation about that.
speaker-2: This just really works for me, because I think there's a reason why it happened. Why there's black and white, why there are sort of slightly hammy performances, wobbly sets, they all match that the pastiche that they're going for. From that point of view, I just thought it worked really well with Tom and Harry. They relax by play acting, this Flash Gordon-esque Captain Proton and his sidekick Buster Kinkade. The setup is there. It just takes you know, the I I would say that the it's the usual guff when it comes to holodeck breakdowns, is it's some transdimensional aliens that mistake it for reality. If you're a fan of those kind of Flash Gun Butt Rogers serials, which which filled my mornings as a kid, I think this story is just a a a real treat.
speaker-1: Well, interestingly for mine number six is a similar comment on gimmick episodes, 'cause obviously we've already acknowledged up top that the holodeck is actually a facilitator for gimmick episodes to some degree.
speaker-0: The holodeck is a gimmick.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it giv but it gives you a freedom, license to enjoy it in a way, because in the s in Bride of C Chaotica they're all specifically playing the role and we know these are fictional characters as opposed to expected to just believe people can't remember. And my number six reflects the recent run on Astrange New Worlds of the fairy tale stuff in terms of seeing performers play very different versions of themselves. And it wouldn't be a holodeck list without Broccoli. So my number six is Hollow Pursuits. Season three, episode twenty-one, the brilliant conceit of holodeck addiction, which is the question, as soon as you know the holodeck exists, the same way that they've never really done the replicate of food making you fat episode, which everyone is the is the other version, other episode people wanna see.
speaker-0: That would be the shallow hell episode. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, indeed. Absolutely right. Reg Barclays introduced Dwight Schultz from the A Team, introducing a classic Star Trek character who had incredible longevity, much more than I imagine he, let alone any of the writers, thought was possible, in terms of going, as you say, all the way into Voyager. He's an all time secondary recurring guest character on Next General. I remember the cheer he got when he appeared in First Contact, for instance. So this is Him trying to overcome his crushing shyness in the workplace in engineering with Geordie and the other crew members calling him Lieutenant Broccoli because he's so bumbling and seemingly inept. And he's going to therapy with Troy to try and overcome these problems. And she uncovers what he does in his spare time to let loose, which is a bonkers Three Musketeers era holodeck program where He is confident and cocky.
speaker-2: He's the hero of that story. Yeah.
speaker-1: He overcomes all these comedic versions of the his fellow crewmates, including a if you talk about a real person seeing their holographic sexualized holographic version, this is the this is the Piastor Resistance when Troy sees the goddess of love version that he's got her as in his programme. But the highlight is the laugh out loud little Riker. Which remains incredibly funny. The little spoiled little boy who's tiny and frakes' performance when he sees that after being very amused by the Troy version of Troy is really brilliant. Obviously we've had a few episodes at this point, but it's always been more the trapped inside the holodeck, which we're which is slightly more familiar, but this is this was a really interesting way to use it as a narrative character tool. Not early, but sort mid season three episodes to signal how good Next Generation was and was going to become. 'Cause it's very nuanced character focused writing and it's really clever. And also, you don't need to predetermine a character too much or overdo it. You can just bring them in and if you get a good script with good writers it really works. Sally Caves, I think, wrote the wrote the part, which is I'm not sure if she did any others, but brilliant, brilliant episode.
speaker-2: Yeah, it's on my short list but I never liked the resolution of it.
speaker-0: Oddly enough, it is much higher on my list.
speaker-2: No.
speaker-0: My number six is the big goodbye.
speaker-1: huh.
speaker-0: The holodeck episodes release begin with this episode. So that's important. You've got Lawrence Tierney, who I always loved as a character actor. He really bought his menace. I mean, he always tended to play villains, and you know, he he brought that gravitas to this role here. I thought he was terrific as Red Block. This is the one that establishes. that whole holodeck malfunction, you know, run amuck type of arc that we saw in episodes involving the holodeck on the various Star Trek shows over the years. It could be argued that they went to that well too many times. But if you're gonna do it, do it right. And this episode really does it right and establishes the template, like I'm saying, of you know, what would come in episodes of this kind. It showed you that they could do stories that take you to other places while never really leaving the enterprise. Again, this is the one that established for the writers that, hey, you know, if we want to expand on the characters or later on on the show, give them something different to do, or give actors and characters who are underutilized something to do that does not have to have long-lasting effects on the show, that doesn't have to quote unquote become canon because it happened in the holodeck. This is the episode that established that. So part of it is in here because it's such an important episode within the the Star Trek universe. And and part of it is in here because it's just a really entertaining, smart, fun episode. I really enjoyed Patrick Stewart finally having Picard get a hobby. He's not just the captain dealing with the crisis. Remember, this is a season one episode. how does he get his jollies? Well, being a detective, Dixon Hill. Entertainment value and purposefulness of the episode, I think, give it my number six. I was a little surprised. If you ask me, is it better than a couple of the ones I mentioned at the top as not making the cut? No. But we're doing top seven, and this is one of those pods that we're doing where I'm mixing favorite, best, and most important.
speaker-1: Me too. It's hard to pick separate them, wasn't it? Wood of the day.
speaker-2: Gates is fantastic in it.
speaker-0: Yeah shit.
speaker-2: Really gets the show off of comedy chops. Yeah. Yeah. I've also gone for a fun episode for my fifth spot. It's probably the most fun and h funniest holod episode in my list.
speaker-0: May I s are the le are the initials O B?
speaker-2: No. Not that serious at all. Yeah, it's it's lower decks.
speaker-1: Ooh it's the yeah, hang on, it's on my that was on my honor.
speaker-2: No, I think you're wrong as that. 'Cause it's season two's Ayacretaus not
speaker-0: No.
speaker-2: Season One's Crisis Point.
speaker-0: I excreted this morning.
speaker-2: I think most fans would probably have picked Crisis Point, but I watched both of this episode and I just came out enjoying I excretus more. It just made me laugh more. I think maybe it's because it's towards the end of season two, so the characters and performances are more bedded in. And I think Crisis Point is really good, but it it feels like a series of sketches and this it feels like more like a cohesive story. so I excretis is is the crew get tested, all the senior staff have to do kind of lower lower deck work and then the lower deckers have to make command cores. Out of all of it, I love Boimler's story where he's faced with escaping a board cube. And he's really unhappy that he doesn't get a hundred percent. So he keeps redoing it again and again and again, saving Borg babies and he repeats it until he gets a hundred percent, but then he's forced to sacrifice that score in order to beat the real villain of the piece, which is outside of the holodeck. It's full of callbacks as you'd expect. There's lots of references to stuff like Mirror Mirror, Ethics, Wrath of Khan, such as Spark First Contact. There's even an invasion of the body snatchers reference with the open mouth and pointing. Alice Krieger returns as the Borg Queen. Yeah, I just love this episode. It was written by Anne Kim, directed by Kim Arnt, which I'm probably saying wrong. Not much more to say about it, it's just it's it's a really fun comic episode.
speaker-1: So I'm going to reflect what Ian said, which is in terms of best and favourite. Because this one, my number five, if I have to if I'm gonna watch a holodeck episode, this is the one I watch. Without fail. But just a testament to what a sort of absolute gold mine of episodes the holodeck has thrown up over time. So maybe this is my favourite, but for th this list, for the for today's purposes, it's at number five, so it's elementary deer data. Which I adore. Always have. I've often talked about the key episodes when we do these lists in Next Gen, which sort of pointed towards as it sort of solidified its quality and its strengths, and the obvious ones very always where no one has gone before, data law, conspiracy, and then the first of season two for me is elementary dear data. It's just wonderfully done. It's gleeful. Brent Spiner getting to really sort of start to flex his Chops. It explores his his friendship with Geordie and it's really nice. It makes good use of Pulaski, who often didn't get used as well as she might have been. Also, and my favourite thing, my favourite thing to hop on about, it's a really fascinating big idea. A simple turn of phrase creates a new life form. And it's the first holographic life form we have on Star Trek. When that again would have great lineage, when Geordie says, Please create an opponent to beat data and the shipped computer creates a sentient Moriarty in Daniel Davis. Beautifully suave, brilliant, menacing, charming,
speaker-2: Have you seen him speak in his actual accent? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it?
speaker-2: Yeah. And he it's a brilliant English accent.
speaker-1: It's one of the best English accents you hear in America do, for sure. He's really amazing and of course returns as a result. Interestingly, he didn't return till season six and ship in a bottle because they all assumed that Moriarty was public domain. And he wasn't.
speaker-2: Yeah, they had problems with the Conan Doyle estate, didn't they?
speaker-1: Yep, so then he didn't ret return until he was public. luckily it was in the lifespan of T N G on T
speaker-2: Are you sure on that? Because I think they'd they managed to settle and then I think the Conan Doyle estate, because of things like this, they saw how respectful it was to the character and they were actually more open to them. I don't think I don't think it did go into public domain until later.
speaker-1: Either way, it's still I'm still glad he returned. It's also to another callback to one of our other episodes, it's also a Rob Bowman episode and with that in Datalore, one of the reasons that I immediately every time I saw his name come up on next gen, I got excited.
speaker-0: My number five is Our Man Bashir. Deep Space Nine season four. So, you know, look, what a great idea, right? Let's have some fun with Bond. Take the show's most charming male character and let him run amok in i th the Bond world. Take our gorgeous stars, males and females alike, and put them in tuxedos and sexy outfits and and let them have some bravora screen time. I just thought it was so much fun, so entertaining. Again, it really played up the chemistry between Andy Robinson and Alexander Sadig. Avery Brooks looked like he was actually having fun as Dr. Noah. You know, the whole thing was just so cool and different and explored all of our 007 archetypes. But here's the thing: the episode also found just enough edge by presenting the varying viewpoints. Of being a spy, in the sense that, you know, to Bashir it was all fantasy, just fun and a and a lark. Whereas Garrick reminded everybody that, hey, real spying encompasses tough choices, double dealing, and death. I I will take some meat on the bone in addition to pure entertainment and then add in great sets, great costumes. Great performances. Great
speaker-1: School. It's a really good bone pastice school.
speaker-0: Exactly. so the the whole episode for me just works and it it it does that rare trick of working on both levels where there is some meat on the bone but it is also pure entertainment. So clear number five. And it's funny, I I I thought this would be much higher on my list.
speaker-1: Might be higher on one of our lists.
speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause if you said to me, you know, what's your f favorite episode of Deep Space Nine? This this is very high on my list.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, agree.
speaker-2: Because B Bashir has this fascination with the Bond archetype, it kind of retroactively explains why he and Garrick became friends.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But also section thirty one echoes off it as well, his involvement with them.
speaker-2: Although they didn't come till much later.
speaker-1: But I'm they must well, we'd we assume they they knew that connection.
speaker-0: Maybe, maybe not. But either way, y you know, the
speaker-1: Love to know.
speaker-0: the breadcrumbs are here, if you want to find them. Let's put it that way.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-2: Speaking of which, my full spot is Deep Space Nine Season six Inquisition which introduced section thirty one. Just to stay up front, it was written by Bradley Thompson and David Webble and directed by Michael Dawn.
speaker-1: He's no a merry man.
speaker-2: So I was very tempted to put Arman Bushir in my list and I didn't. A I knew Rich would be including it for sure. Ian, you obviously just added it in. I kinda wanted to offer an alternative and I think this episode is more important from both a franchise and overarching story point of view in terms of developing Bushir's character, deepening the Dominion crisis, and introducing A brilliant new addition to Trek Law which is section thirty one. Okay, its legacy has been marred.
speaker-1: Carnished would be a polite way of painted
speaker-0: Changed it.
speaker-1: besmirched Any more?
speaker-0: Runge.
speaker-2: Damage, destroyed.
speaker-0: Urinated on
speaker-2: I remember when seeing this for right
speaker-1: Tottenham.
speaker-2: Right. At the moment that I watched this for the very first time, it was it was a really exciting introduction to me. It was this shadow organization within the supposedly perfect Starfleet.
speaker-1: Toby responds to dark trope shocker.
speaker-2: Yes, what a surprise. They're working behind the scenes. They are a sanctioned intelligence syndicate operating without check. One of my favorite ever quotes is Cree Custodia Ipso Custode, who watches the watches. Mm-hmm. I learned that by reading the comic book, The The Watchman, and it's always stuck with me. I think William Sadler, absolutely perfect casting as Sloan, the head of section thirty one.
speaker-1: He he always deserved better in his career as something recognition I think. He was consistently brilliant. From Death and Bogus Journey, sure Shah and Democrat, he's really, really brilliant. Die Hard Two is great as well.
speaker-0: And he was very good on the show Roswell.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, so s I I think s he presents Sloane as this seemingly convivial wanting to get on with the crew, but also there's just this insidiousness and duplicitousness that I find just simply juicy and wonderful and I loved all the misdirection of the of the holodeck and Bashir slowly figuring it out in kind of in his persona as Bond, in that he he it it's one little moment that he suddenly realizes that about Worse injury and then he figures it out. And it's it's a really great twisty turny story, which I I think it was Michael Dorn who described as Kafka esque. And it was one which just kept you guessing right up to the section thirty one reveal. It's really a great, great episode and again it was a real pleasure to revisit this one.
speaker-1: Great episode. Yeah. I did keep hoping he would go, You thank my battleship during the episode, but he didn't. So my number four we've covered, and I won't go into it particularly because I talked about it in the underrated episodes as well, which is Bride of Chaotica. I love Bride of Chaotica. and as I said, it's been interesting the to to how this list has shuffled out. and again, I wouldn't have predicted the order. And it was a lot of moving around. I don't normally have a lot of moving around when I have a list, but I did with this one. But ultimately, exactly what you both said, it's enormous fun. I love getting to see Kate Mulgrew really dug her teeth into stuff. Now, I know the drama, she's a she's exemplary. That's why she works so well on Oranges and New Black. Making her a cast casting as a Russian is is just really brilliant because she reel your assholes with the accent. And it's a similar sort of dynamic here and Whenever she gets to have that twinkle in her eye as an actor, it's really, really brilliant. So that was the tipping point ultimately. Much as I love other episodes more, probably, this is just as you say, a fantastic bit of fun, bit of entertainment.
speaker-2: She goes she goes full screwball hepburn in this episode, doesn't she?
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.
speaker-0: Yes. All right, my number four, I let me give some backstory. I for the Star Trek magazine, I can't remember if one of you was the editor at the time, season seven, Deep Space Nine, I was interviewing Rick Berman for each issue and we were talking about what was coming up and he's like, You know, Ian, I want to mention an episode to you. You know, everybody says, we're so serious, we're so serious. Let me read you the title of our next episode that's about to go on the stage. Bada bing, bada bang. And he said, I'm gonna have this script FedEx to you so that you can, you know, we can talk about it next time. And I'm like, okay. The script was fabulous. It's just a lot of fun, but super thoughtful as well. I love this episode for a bunch of reasons. You know, one, it's different. Two, they had the balls to go with like a fantasy, weird episode like this in the middle of a very, very dark. series-ending dramatic military arc. And it was needed, and I thought it was a a a fun respite. I also love that they went there with the Vic Fontaine character. The crew gathers together to help a holodeck character, to help a holographic figure who now at this point in the show really means something to several of the characters. Now, not all of the characters, but even the characters with whom he hasn't interacted much are involved in trying to help him out of support for the characters, the the real life characters who are friends or consider this figure an important person in their lives. Jimmy Darren, may he rest in peace, was th this was one of his best opportunities as this character.
speaker-1: And you love you love six degrees of Star Trek and I just remember when he came on. my god, that's the dude from DJ Hook!
speaker-0: Right. Right. So, you know, and then people who were watching it was Right,
speaker-2: You would think that.
speaker-0: this is true. Get a life. And then there was the you know, the fact that for a lot of people, older Star Trek fans at the time who grew up with Gidget, were like, Holy cow, it's him. And a lot of younger fans didn't realize that Jimmy Darren was a you know a a major star in his day, in his own right, and super talented, good looking man. Could act, could sing, could dance. I'm in the Vic Fontaine fan club. I like the character. I know a lot of people did not. I understand why not, but I I like the character, what it brought to the other characters, and I like that here it's the other characters that brought something to him, which is there's love and support. And we got a casino episode in the middle of all of the war. I I just thought that was just super fun and super cool. Interestingly to me, I wonder if the season had been lighter, if this just would have been another light episode, kind of like the way we're complaining about what's been happening with Strange New Worlds. Too many gimmick episodes. Would this have been a gimmick episode if they weren't focusing so much on the the war arc near the end of the show? Maybe, maybe not. But within the context of season seven. It was a wild choice to go there and I thought they executed it beautifully. Wa one of my favorite episodes, period, and a a a great holodeck episode.
speaker-2: Well it it's Deep Space Nine does the rat pack, essentially.
speaker-0: Absolutely. No, it not yeah, not essentially it is. Yeah, I agree with your topes. Yeah.
speaker-1: Also, do you notice that that without fail, it's almost like the the DS nine Hollowsweet episodes, they all got they all got to look great. Whereas TFG was much more let's put in tights and make look silly. DSM was always we're gonna put them in lovely tuxedos or we're gonna dress them in love in fabulous nineteen sixties Bond wear, you know.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I remember interviewing Darren on the set and you know, he was dressed to the nines, that he had taken off his tuxedo jacket, but he had the shoes on and he was telling me stories about, you know, Dean Martin giving him shoes and it was just unbelievable. Great episode. And he was a he was a a a nice man too, as well.
speaker-1: Always helps.
speaker-2: Ian and I are on some kind of synergy wave because I've also gone for a Vic Fontaine story in my third spot. But naturally I've gone the darker end with season seven's It's Only a Paper Moon. We've covered this episode a fair bit before. I think it's all a favourite of ours. Mm-hmm. It is a dark story, it is about the impact of war after the events of AR five five eight and the effect of PTS. you know, it's a painful watch because it takes a usually very positive character in Nog and forces them into a place that's that's really mentally and emotionally dark. Stellar performances all round, especially Aaron Eisenberg. But I think also Surp Lofton and Max Gronchick are really good in this as well. And I do I think you've mentioned this before, Ian, that several combat veterans contacted Eisenberg afterwards to just complimenting me on his performance and and the story.
speaker-0: And to say how much they related to the performance and the character.
speaker-2: Yeah. The story was by David Mack and John J. Oldover. Teleplay by Ron Moore, directed by Anson Williams.
speaker-0: Just stop there for one second. Look at those names. You you're you're talking about authors and editors who crafted the episode. You're talking about Potse Happy
speaker-1: I was about to say that.
speaker-0: Days directing the episode. I mean it was really an interesting mix of talent that that made this one come together. Sorry to interrupt, Tobes.
speaker-2: I I was just gonna finish on that it ends with a a positive message summed up by Vic Fontaine and unusually for me I picked out a quote and it's Look kid, I don't know what's going to happen to you out there. All I can tell you is that you've got to play the cards life deals you. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at least you're in the game. And I think that's actually a very positive thing for people to take forward. I think that's a good way of looking at things. You don't know what's gonna happen, but go for it.
speaker-1: Great. My number three is another Deep Space Nine, and the primary reason I wanted someone to go before me is because that way I wouldn't fall into the trap of having to talk about our man Bashir again. It's my number three for all the reasons that you both already expressed, but Ian specifically having it in his list. But crucially in the thing you said which is what places it higher for me is the the subtleties. Is it more fun than than do I like it more than elementary data? Maybe, maybe not, but it's a little bit more serious. And that mirroring of the of the character work is really, really deft within something very silly. And the only other thing I'd add is it was the longest episode shoot for Deep Space Nine, I believe, in the entire run. And it it actually aired in the US nine or ten days after Goldeneye. was released into US theatres. Which is, of course, the film which reinvigorated Bond, so very timely.
speaker-0: My number three is ship in a bottle. So it's interesting to me that it's two Moriarty episodes. This one is bigger, better, and more interesting. I think Moriarty gets treated with dignity here rather than as a typical villain. This guy wants to be alive. He thinks he's living and he wants others to accept him as a sentient being. Which immediately gives that gravitas that Star Trek is known for. I mean, we're we're talking LOL territory here, but with a villainous character, which is interesting. He does manage to to leave the holodeck, or does he? And that that spoiler. That tests the the crew and us as an audience, which I thought was, you know, that whole simulation within a simulation reveal was very, very, very cool.
speaker-1: Do think we got the doctor because of Moriarty to some degree?
speaker-2: He's definitely a precursor.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's absolutely, you know, a potential link between those. It's a a continuation rather than a pure sequel. Yeah.
speaker-1: Read.
speaker-0: Does the enterprise bear some responsibility to him for the previous events that now carry over to this? It's it's a it's a fair question.
speaker-1: Geordie definitely does for creating him.
speaker-0: But w the question is what? What do we owe him? What does the crew owe him? And at what price for giving him sentience if you do that? And
speaker-2: Do we think, because Picard did promise that they would do some research, do we think that anyone did anything? Interimperium?
speaker-0: No
speaker-1: We know they don't, they forgot.
speaker-0: And and that becomes your whole Rath of Khan situation. Did did you leave somebody behind, thus angering and empowering them to impact your future? It was cool to see him again on Picard decades later. Yeah, it was. Did they do enough with that? Not really. And again, that was like, you know, more in Data's head than anything else. Yeah.
speaker-1: I was like, ooh, and then not very much.
speaker-0: It was fleeting, but it was it was it was a cool throwback. I I just find this to be a very cool episode, a very important episode, a very entertaining episode, a very thoughtful episode. I it was cool to see a sequel several years later.
speaker-1: Even though they'd have done it before though, wouldn't they? 'Cause I think Renee pitched it in season three as well, but of course we talked about the rights and Right. So
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I've seen him on Broadway a few times, Daniel Davis. He's he's a great guy and a good actor. And it was funny because he became known in the States for the nanny.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. When he played another Englishman, didn't he?
speaker-0: A very fastidious guy who stole the show. And I will say this about his performance as Moray, he really underplayed it beautifully. I I thought he made beautiful acting choices as the characters. Yeah, that makes him more of a threat.
speaker-1: Agreed.
speaker-2: The second spot is another Voyager episode, season three's worst case scenario. This would genuinely be in a top ten favourite Voyager episodes list for me. I absolutely love this one. It's it's kind of surprising that I've never mentioned this episode before, to be perfectly honest in one of our episodes. Why does it work so well? Right. In previous episodes, we've all criticized the too easy integration of the Marquis crew into J May's Starflight crew. Other than a few early bumps, they just got along way too easily. And via Tuvox holodeck novel, this redresses that by exploring the idea of the Marquis rebelling against both J Maway and the rest of the Voyager crew. We will never know. If the writers had explored this concept more vigorously early on in the show's run, whether this episode would have worked so well. Because it appears in season three towards the end. I think it works because of that distance. It really captures the crew we've come to love, who always work together at odds. The return of Seska, Martha Hackett, to haunt the Voyager crew from the grave, I thought was a brilliant touch. And a great twist. As well as being a rollicking Voyager episode with some real jeopardy. There's also plenty of humour in there as well. And there's the addition of some self aware commentary about the writing process. Which in this case was Kenneth Biller. And the episode was directed by Alexander Singer. Great stuff. I love this episode.
speaker-1: Great episode. It is a great episode. And I do love seeing Seska back. So, my number two is the other Moriarty episode too, shipping a bottle. So I agree again, Ian, I know it's becoming a bad habit, that this is a better episode, the elementary dear data. It doesn't quite have some of the the the fun to to some degree. But and not only that though, it's so in so thoughtful. someone who bangs on and on about the concepts and wanting them to be grant grand and philosophical and thought provoking, this is as about as thought provoking as someone can get, especially now alarmingly prescient. I was in the car discussing the the the list earlier today and suddenly realised you might as well be talking about AI now. so it's as ever Star Trek's ahead of the game. I don't really have much to add except for the fact that to bring things full circle to some degree, Barkley's in it. added late in the game but so we can have th the the last word and it's just really nice to see him in any holiday episode.
speaker-2: He's actually though, he's integral to the story because he doesn't know about Moriarty. That's true. 'Cause he wasn't on the ship. So when he starts the programme up, it actually makes sense because Geordie o obviously would not have done that.
speaker-0: It's kinda like Chekhov never meeting Khan.
speaker-1: I was thinking the exact same thing, I was trying to work it away of going, Yeah, funny at checkoff new can then But anyway.
speaker-0: He was in the bathroom.
speaker-1: Brilliant, so that was my number two.
speaker-0: My number two has been mentioned already, and it's just a great episode. Hollow Pursuits, TNG season three. This has become even more important and relevant of an episode over time, if you ask me, because Barkley is a troubled character. He's he was in 11 episodes, by the way, and first contact. He's not just going into the holodeck for fun. He's going into the holodeck for emotional reasons. And he's a deeply troubled, conflicted, jealous, but decent human being trying to make his own world better.
speaker-2: Yeah, he's addicted.
speaker-0: He's created exaggerated versions of the people around him, but he controls the narrative. It literally you could almost picture a psychologist writing this episode or or or vetting the teleplag, saying, yeah, Riker would be tiny, or This would be that. And it just it really works. There's there's comedy, but comedy can be tragic, right? That's where some comedy comes from. So the payoff is
speaker-2: Actually comedy.
speaker-0: tragic comedy. That that is the payoff right in there. I mean, he is, to use your word that you just said, Toby, a addicted. I mean, he is becoming wildly dependent for his reality to be stabilized by going into the fantasy. And that's not gonna be a successful recipe for for this man's sanity. It makes you think is you're laughing. Are you laughing at him? Are you laughing with him? Should you be laughing at all? Is this is this at all funny? It's dangerous. It's unhealthy. It's cathartic on the other hand.
speaker-1: It's like laughing at Arthur, Dudley Moore and Arthur in a way.
speaker-0: Right, are you laughing at a drunk or with a drunk? Is he is he cute or pathetic? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when everything right now is virtual and we really do have people falling in love with avatars and you know, getting married to avatars and and all this kind of stuff, this episode is is more timely than ever. It it begs the question, when does escapism become your reality? And that line blur is is where the trouble starts for some people and where the trouble ends. It's kinda like a gambling addiction. Is it is it fun? Is it sweat inducing? Is it a thrill? Yup. Will it bite you in the ass if you're you're not careful? And the answers are yes, yes, and yes. I I rewatched this one and I almost watched it again right after watching it just to see if 'cause I hadn't seen it in in ages. And it it h a it holds up. B it's better than I remember it. C, I think it's a very important episode for all of the characters because it also gives us a sense of not just how Barclay sees himself, but how an outside character sees our crew. I actually had dinner last night with a a a good friend who is a therapist and she would have a feel better watching this episode because it it does tie in jealousy and Reverence at the same time. I mean he respects all of these characters, but he wants to be them. And there therein lies the danger now.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Well I was gonna say it's also a meta commentary on fandom and living your life through a fiction, fictional thing that you love. Although it wouldn't have been expressed in those terms back in eighty nine ninety, so
speaker-0: Also, would we agree that this was of the eleven appearances, Dwight Schultz's best? I would.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think so. I would. But although I do like these transport episode.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I'd go with this at number one.
speaker-1: Yeah, I agree. I agree.
speaker-2: Take a guess at what my number one is?
speaker-0: No, I don't really care.
speaker-1: Wow. is there a horror holodeck episode? Can't remember.
speaker-2: Go on, have a guess. As soon as I've guessed yours.
speaker-0: I don't think it's mine. So I'm not gonna say it yet.
speaker-1: I know it's not mine.
speaker-0: Give us a hint.
speaker-2: It has already been mentioned.
speaker-1: shipping a bottle? Correct.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: This is a this is a favourite because I rewatched it but it it was it just evoked memories of of the first time I watched it and how many surprises are in it. It's just packed with them. You know, like any good Sherlock Holmes story, it's full of twists. First you've got Dayton and Geordie returning his homes at Watson, which is always fun. You've got the reveal of Moriarty, which I thought was absolute perfection. It was the way it was done, really, really brilliant. I'm s gonna slightly disagree with Ian on this in that I think he is more of a villain in this story than he was in elementary data. Although he kidnaps Pulaski in that episode, here he's trying to destroy the whole ship unless he gets what he wants. I mean I think that's a pretty big step up
speaker-1: There's a bit of righteousness to his cause though in this one.
speaker-2: Yeah, but I think also I mean that you could say that for elementary deer data as well. But I just I I don't know, I I think he's more acquiescent in elementary dear data, whereas here he's like, No, you give me what I want. I don't
speaker-0: But I
speaker-2: care if you think you can't do it, you figure out a way, otherwise we're all gonna die 'cause I've got nothing to lose. I'm just gonna go back into being alive inside the hollow archive unless you figure this out. So I think that's that was great. you had the return of Reg. Barkley, which you've mentioned before. There was the introduction of Stephanie Beecham as the Countess Regina Bartholomew. Hilarious take on a British name there. I think most Americans probably know her from Dynasty, but for me, i I recognized her from Tenko, which I used to watch with my parents.
speaker-1: So did I, watched Tanko with my mum.
speaker-0: Can I tell you though that I I've never seen a show called Dynasty, but I did see one in the States called Dynasty.
speaker-2: Dynasty. Yeah. Or the Colby's. She was in Brave Funch.
speaker-0: That was awful.
speaker-1: It's o it's only because America's not old enough to actually have a proper dynasty.
speaker-2: The thing is I can't say dynasty because it always comes up as dynasty.
speaker-1: Nasty
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-2: I think the first twist that the Picard Day Troan Barclay are still on hologram is fantastic. The second twist is a little bit more telegraphed, but it's still a fantastic moment with p Picard essentially outwitting Mariarty. I think the twist's great, I think the story holds up. And I think this was probably my first exposure to simulation theory. Mm. This was years before The Matrix. Although it had been I think it has been tackled in science fiction.
speaker-1: been tackled in philosophy for you know, in different forms throughout history.
speaker-2: Neither of you mentioned it, but I thought it was great. The last line in the episode is Reg's going computer end program. That's exactly the sort of thing that I would do. Yeah.
speaker-0: Beautiful touch, yeah, and it right in keeping with the character.
speaker-2: I'm g very quickly gonna run through my honourable mentions. Next gen we had Big Goodbye, Hollow Pursuits, Fistful of Datas and Phantasms, Deep Space Nine, Arm Ambashir, His Way, Bada Bing, Bada Bang. Voyager, real life, killing game, Tinker Tana Doctor Spy. And I wanna give a shout out to Prodigy's Kobayashi as well. That's it.
speaker-1: Right. So what's my number one tip?
speaker-2: Your number one, Rich, is your favourite, Arman Bashir.
speaker-1: We know it's not. I know. Exactly.
speaker-2: Uhhuh. 'Cause I g I forewarned you, Rich. I wonder if I hadn't forewarned you whether you would
speaker-1: No, no, no, no, no, no. It would have been the same.
speaker-2: Pashere is definitely your favourite.
speaker-1: No, but no, but as I said, but elementary data's close. It No, it's a bit of both. No, I'd already shuffled it around when you said it. I'd already I did this ad this this a while ago. And it was always this f this one, which is it's only a paper moon. For all the reasons that you guys have said, but because you won't find a better piece of drama in anything, let alone Star Trek. And It subverts expectation, it offers you alternative portrayals and view of character key characters you normally would have been left in a box. It allowed a recurring actor in Aaron Eisenberg to do career-best work and and as you said, it had social value. It had a a lasting impact and was meaningful for people who who really needed it. It's interesting that it was originally pitched as a clerk's bar. story rather than Vic's and it got shifted and then Ira when he did that also added in Nog's injury which had happened a couple of episodes before and and then when R Ron Moore did a rewrite he just focused purely on the Nog storyline and I think it's all the better for it. And the only other thing is that where was the Ralph Mouth directed episode? What a missed opportunity. No, it's this is this is as good as Star Trek gets.
speaker-2: Does he appear in it, or
speaker-1: He does in Voyager. Donnie Most appears in Voyager. Can't remember what he in, but he's in it. Right.
speaker-0: They both were at one of the Star Trek conventions together. I got to moderate that panel with the two of them, which was a lot of fun.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: My number one, go ahead, Tobes.
speaker-2: Right, your number one is take me out to the holo suite.
speaker-0: At this time for number one with It's Only a Paper Moon. So here is, you know, that dichotomy for me between the the serious and the entertaining. It's only a paper moon, as Rich just eloquently said, is not only great Star Trek, it's just great television. And it's a very mature use of the technology. I obviously he can walk, he can dance, he can work, he can live his life in this world. And the thing that's beautiful about this episode is the hollow suite is not broken. It's not malfunctioning. They're not trapped in there. All
speaker-1: This is a great point.
speaker-0: by choice. It's doing what it's supposed to do, but it's having a different impact on the characters because of that. There's no finer performance given by Aaron Eisenberg in the series than in this episode. And kudos to Ira and to Rick and the rest of the Higher ups at Deep Space Nine at the time for giving an episode this important, this late in the show, in the middle of a war arc, to a supporting actor. God bless him, Aaron delivered in spades in this episode. I mean, the guy deserved an Emmy nomination. The performance was was that good. It's interesting that the holodeck is what forces, compels him back into reality.
speaker-1: I hope an AI therapist would actually do, but probably doesn't.
speaker-0: Correct. I d I just thought that was it's it's a beautiful episode and it holds up
speaker-2: It's really interesting that in order to get Nog back into feeling confident is it plays into him making profit through the casino.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Takes him back to his to his ba his his fundamental nature as a frangivis culture.
speaker-2: It's really smart doing that.
speaker-0: Yeah, good point. And then take me out to the holo suite. everything about it is entertaining. The visuals, the acting, the the way they i integrate baseball, Max Grudenchik having to pretend he couldn't play when he really could, actors pretending that they can play when they really can't. Death to the opposition. You could rattle off lines that are just hysterical. Odo is the umpire. Looking at the image of him as the umpire makes me laugh out loud. Wharf in a in a baseball. uniform is just so stupid that it's it's brilliant. Captain Solok, that was a a great character, a great foil for Cisco and Gregory were how do I pronounce his name? Wagrowski was top notch. Again, we were in the middle of the Dominion War here, and along comes this bit of pure entertainment also in season seven. In life you need a reprieve when you're in a a dark, bitter situation or place. And This was that for the characters and this was that for the audience as well. I thought it was a a smart move by Ira and company to throw this in there. And here's the interesting thing. They lose. The Niners lose. It it's not the happy ending that the the characters and particularly Cisco wanted here. You know, in a in a in a perfect entertainment world, you know, everybody would be sharing a big hug on the ball field. Not quite. And that ties into the reality of the show going on at the time. And I mean within the show, you know, they're in the middle of a war. you can't win every battle. Half the fun is playing and giving it your best. And they celebrate anyway. That's the other key point. They lose but they celebrate. But the w the winning wasn't really the point, the it was the experience. So those are my two.
speaker-2: There's good news and there's bad news in.
speaker-0: What's that?
speaker-2: The bad news is, take me out to the holo suite is not a holodeck, sorry.
speaker-0: Stop.
speaker-2: It's not, it doesn't count. The holodeck is just a setting. It's not a story beat. So they could have easily recreated a baseball pitch anywhere on Baedor, for instance, and and played there. So it the holodeck or the holo suite in this case, it's irrelevant to the story. But the good news is, because you made a tie, you you already have a number one, so it's good.
speaker-0: Alright, I'm glad you accept that.
speaker-1: Wow. So those are our top seven favourite holodeck episodes. A lot of overlap, which is not always the case. It was interesting. And we all agree how good the holodeck's proven to be for Star Trek in terms of drama, story, character, and so in as a dramatic dev device, a huge success. If only they could really make one. They're trying really hard.
speaker-2: Do you know what that I was just thinking about that? I think I mean I would love a holodeck, but I would be concerned about the Barclay effect that I would never leave.
speaker-0: And especially look at AI now, all the problems that's causing. Where what's reality? What if what if you could film what's happening in a holodeck? Right? Just look at the implications of if there's so much on the internet now that isn't real.
speaker-1: Yeah and we have a vo we have volumes, so we have the way to do that. And it's only it's only a jump for the two to come together, isn't it? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Please let us know what your favourite holiday episodes are, whether you think we're right, wrong, brilliant, awesome, terrible, ever. Please do also rate, review and share the podcast and you can any w all the ways to contact us are included in the description. And also it's a little sneak preview. We don't normally advertise guests ahead of time, but we've got a couple of biggies coming up. To round out our season. So we would just like to nudge you towards anticipation for none other than William T. Riker himself, Jonathan Frakes talking about first contact on its anniversary year. But also, and was struck by this one today, our f season finale. I really want to know what Nicholas Meyer thinks of Elementary Deer Data. I bet you he's never watched it, but I'd be very curious. So Tune in for Nick Meyer on Star Trek 4 The Voyage Home and Star Trek 6 the Undiscovered Country at the beginning of November. Other than that, we'll see you beyond the final frontier.
speaker-0: Live long and prosper, everybody.
speaker-2: You've changed it.
speaker-1: Full full full.
speaker-2: Peace, love, and logic, isn't it?
speaker-0: So funny. That is so fun. No, no, no, let me let is it is. That's so funny. Do it and set me up again, please.
speaker-2: We should keep all this bit. I quite like the fun endings. Yeah. All right.
speaker-1: Peace, love and logic, everyone. fuck you!
speaker-0: You know what, you know what, Rich? Two two of the three for you.
speaker-2: To raw a bit.
speaker-0: Cheers, everybody. Thanks for listening.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Thanks for listening to Beyond the Final Frontier, a Star Trek podcast with Rich Matthews, Ian Spanning and Toby Weidman. If you want to get in contact with us, you can email us on beyondfpod at gmail.com or check us out on social media. You can even join our Patreon at BFF Beyond the Final Frontier. Huge thanks go out to Alex Weidman for the brilliant original music. Please search Alex Weidman Composer on YouTube to hear the full fantastic theme and more. Also, thanks goes to award winning voiceover artist Sissy Jones for our excellent opening monologue. Find out more about her incredible work at sissyjones.com. And of course, last but not least, our brilliant artwork comes from the designer Russell Seal. Discover more of his work on Behance.net slash Russell Seal. Thanks again and see you next episode, Beyond the Final Frontier.
speaker-1: Welcome to Beyond the Final Frontier, a Star Trek podcast with me, your host Rich Matthews, and my fellow Voyagers, Mr. Ian Speller
speaker-0: Hey there everybody.
speaker-1: and Mr. Toby Weidman. Today's episode, we're gonna be calling for the arch, and it's time to do our top 7 holodeck and holo suite episodes across all Star Trek series.
speaker-2: I've got a question for you right at the start. Do you think this is a controversial subject? Cause when I was like looking at forums and things like that, it seems to be very divisive amongst
speaker-1: Fans.
speaker-2: Some seem to really hate holodeck stories, and I was just wondering, I don't know, is it is it the fantasy element they don't like? Is it too gimmicky?
speaker-1: That's an interesting question.
speaker-0: It's fantasti it it it is fantasy within fantasy, and some people don't appreciate that. They look at it as a storytelling shortcut. And I get that. On the other hand, it lets the the shows do things that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do, from fun costumes to letting the actors do things that they wouldn't normally get to do. It's a very cool storytelling device that, if not overused, I think is has real value to it.
speaker-1: It's also very Star Trek. I mean l our our issue with Strange New World is partly because they don't have the holodeck. And they even tried to introduce a prototype to try and get round the fact that they just have to throw them onto planets with fairy tales on rather than have someone playing in a fairy tale environment in the holodeck. And I think it's one of the things that has created that problematic thing 'cause they want to do that.
speaker-0: Guys guys, maybe the whole show is a holodeck.
speaker-1: Whoa
speaker-0: Maybe that explains the puppets and everything else. Wait.
speaker-2: Do we think the final episode will have Jonathan Frakes and Marina Certis coming and
speaker-1: Did
speaker-0: Guys, that would mean meta and genius. And it's not gonna happen.
speaker-1: I'd reevaluate the whole show if that's what they do.
speaker-0: If they had balls to do that, I would A laugh out loud and B be very impressed and entertained.
speaker-1: Yeah, me too, me too. Well, interesting that you interrupted Toby because in an off pod conversation you said you're very confident in predicting mine and Ian's number ones.
speaker-2: I think so, yeah.
speaker-1: Because of that, I'm gonna ask you to go first.
speaker-0: I was gonna say tell us what you think it is.
speaker-1: Well not yet.
speaker-0: No, I wanna know.
speaker-2: saying up front or or should I maybe I should write it down on a bit of paper and then at the end r rever
speaker-1: Yeah, and then hold it up when we get there. Yeah.
speaker-2: Okay. Give me two seconds.
speaker-1: Please hold while Toby writes down his guesses.
speaker-2: Written down.
speaker-1: Okay. Toby has written down his guesses for our top spot holiday episodes, mine and Ian's. But I still think it means you should start, 'cause you're so confident.
speaker-2: It was interesting when I was putting this list together because I think I always thought that Next Generation was the one which dominated with holodeck stories. Yeah. But
speaker-1: Novelty.
speaker-2: my list is actually there are more Voyager episodes than any other series. So I wonder whether that is I mean, I I guess it was used as a way of escapism in Voyager. I will say that my favorite holodeck moment is When Scotty revisits the original Enterprise in in Relics. I mean, that's just one of my favorite moments in the whole of Star Trek. My first pick is a Voyager story. It's nothing human from Voyager Season 5, written by Jerry Taylor and directed by David Livingstone. While I was very tempted to include season six Pathfinder in this spot, it just got bumped because While I think Pathfinder is a more entertaining hour than this one, I kinda don't really consider it a Voyager episode. It it's like a Reg Barclay story. He does interact with the Voyager crew, but it's all fabricated. It's all like from files and they're even wearing different outfits. So I picked this one because I think it poses a really profound question. Should you use unethical research and the conclusions of Experimentation on humans to save the life of another. This has been a big topic of discussion and debate for decades, really since the creation of the Nuremberg Code following the trials after World War Two. I just think they do a really good job confronting that dilemma. Guest star David Clennan is fantastic as the Cardassian doctor stroke surgeon Krell Massett and he works really well with. Robert Picardo as as the doctor. Basic story is a big rubber insect alien attaches itself to Balana and the only way that they can try and get the creature to stop killing her
speaker-1: You and your love of great big rubbery aliens attaching themselves to to crew members is kinda s frightening me now.
speaker-2: So there you go. So the Doctor recreates Krell Masset on the holodeck and uses the conclusions he got from experimenting on Badurans in order to formulate a plan on how to get the creature to detach itself from Bellana and it causes all kinds of controversy. Clearly Masset is based on the horrific Joseph Mengela. But it poses a really difficult ethical dilemma in a very Star Trek way, especially relating to the things like the needs of the many. You know, where do you draw that line? And I found the resolution very interesting i in terms of Janeway kind of backs out of making the call. Like she makes the call for them to proceed, but then whether to delete the program is put in the hands of the doctor. You would think Janeway would be the person who who makes that call, but she leaves it to doctor to make the decision and ultimately he does delete the program and I think it's very satisfying from a viewer point of view. But there's a great scene where Jane Wake does go and talk to Balano afterwards and says, Look, I made the choice. It's my call. If you hate me, I understand. And Balano is properly upset by it. It's a very interesting episode. It's one I I wasn't really considering before and then I when I revisited it for this episode I I found myself really enjoying that One other point, it was Jerry Taylor's last writing credit before she retired.
speaker-1: good one to bow out on. Hmm. It's an interesting choice. As you said, there's a surprisingly long list of holodeck episodes, especially from Voyager. And this one didn't make it onto my long list, but Pathfinder did.
speaker-2: I rewatched Bath and it and it's a great episode. It's r it's really fun.
speaker-1: I'd say my number seven, I've got a similar one which almost made it on and then ultimately was more like relics, but slightly longer. But for similar reasons I didn't include one one zero zero one one zero zero zero one one zero zero whatever it is. Because although Minuet is part of the episode, it's more the sort of B story to occupy away from the main and and it didn't feel quite as full throatedly holodeck to me. But that would have been on the list if it if it had felt More central, I think. So my number seven kind of mirrors yours in that it's a holodecker's research tool episode. It's Booby Trap. Season three, episode six of Starship Next Generation, aka the one where Geordie falls in love with a holographic version of Leah Brahms, who we later find out is much nicer and gentler and more Geordie friendly than the real person. And it's that the Enterprise is trapped in an asteroid field and it's got all sorts of gravity things. It means if they try to do anything to escape, it just tightens the grip and every they're gonna run out time to escape. And so to work out what's going on and how to find a a technological way through, Geordie goes onto the holodeck, recreates the Mars Planetia design lab so that he can work through the the specs and the the logistics of the problem with Dr. Leah Brahms, the woman who designed the Enterprise. Framing that is Geordie's series long struggle, romantic struggles with women. I love this episode for a variety of reasons. And it's again, I guess it mirrors the Minuet one in the sense of it's someone becoming infatuated with the holographic program. Except this one, unlike Minuet, who was a sort of extra-level hologram deliberately by the binars to deceive and draw attention away from their work, this one is purely a enterprise computer creation, but nonetheless appeals to all the things that floats George's boat and it becomes an interesting emotional episode rather than what initially felt like a a fairly what you thought were in for a fairly conventional escape from a problem episode and it's not. It's not procedural. It's it's an emotional one as much as it's anything else. And and it's just really nice. And I think that Susan Gibney is really, really wonderful as Leah Brahms. Now she was in the running four who was she in the running for in
speaker-0: I wanna say chain wet.
speaker-1: It's someone big, wasn't it? It was a major cast member and she was almost cast. And you can see why. She's really, really good. And she cropped up again in Deep Space Nine double episode, Home Front. And it was nice to see her back. And interesting, not with any appliances, just the actor. Which is kinda cool and unusual.
speaker-0: Yes, it was Susan Gibney who was up for the role of Jane Way and the producers and the studio decided she was just too young.
speaker-1: Fair enough, fair enough. It would have been very interesting to see how how that would have panned out. Would have been very different chainway.
speaker-2: My comment on that is is I think the big difference is is Minuet is a fantasy figure. Yes. Whereas Leah Brahms is based on a real person. And I think you're a bit harsh on the real Leah Brahms when she shows up because I think she has good reason to be abrasive. She doesn't know Geordie whereas he feels like they have a relationship.
speaker-1: No he comes off pervey, don't get me wrong.
speaker-0: Little a little stalkerish, yes.
speaker-2: He's created a version of her to play with in the holodeck. It's that's really
speaker-1: When she turns it on, the the program does basically go, Hydro ID. So we're
speaker-2: Yeah. Exactly.
speaker-1: like, Wow, why did it start that bitch?
speaker-0: Me start with this. I ended up surprising myself because most of my picks for top seven are entertainment episodes rather than thoughtful reflective episodes. But Pathfinder was actually my number eleven. And I also cut down from Fistful of Datas, Worst Case Scenario, and Elementary Deer Data ended up at my number eight. So if we go to my number seven, you can't get much more entertaining than Bride of Chaotica.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-2: I'm just gonna tell you, Ian, it's my number six.
speaker-0: There you go. I find it a very fun, entertaining arc within the show to that they they followed through on this. Bright of Chaotica is the pinnacle of that whole arc. The black and white photography is absolutely gorgeous. The Satan's robot and Dr. Chaotica are just great characters. I grew up loving the old black and white Flash Gordon with Buster Crab
speaker-2: But Rogers.
speaker-0: and Buck Rogers, yep. It was just so much fun. It looked great. It looked cheesy. It looked noir. It you know, Kate's costume was just absolutely ridiculous, and she really went for it as arachnea. Normally she is the authority figure when we meet her in pretty much every situation. And here Kate and the character really got to get loose and let loose. I thought Martin Rainer was terrific as Doctor Chaotica.
speaker-2: Agreed.
speaker-0: I thought they had really Good chemistry. And then I would tip my cap to Alan Quaker, who was the director, and Marvin Rush, the cinematographer on it, did a great job. It was Richard James who designed the sets, and you had Bob Blackman who did the costumes. Kudos to all of them. That is one where all of it came together. Script, the performances by Garrett and Robbie are fun. Kate steals the show. Raynor is the guest star.
speaker-2: Tim Russ is great in it as well.
speaker-1: Great ensemble episode in general.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was good for everybody to kind of cut loose. I enjoy the episode and I thought it was gonna wind up higher on my list, which is a little surprising, only because it means that there are several other episodes that I even found more entertaining. You'll you can tell from my list that I'm a big fan of the the fun holodeck episodes and you'll you'll see that in a bit, especially when we get to my tie. I didn't want to disappoint you.
speaker-2: Chaoticate is in my sixth bot. Just to add that the the writer is Brian Fuller and Michael Taylor. So we've talked a lot about gimmick episodes and this is unarguably a gimmick episode.
speaker-1: Well, in the underrated episode I championed it as and that's where we had a conversation about that.
speaker-2: This just really works for me, because I think there's a reason why it happened. Why there's black and white, why there are sort of slightly hammy performances, wobbly sets, they all match that the pastiche that they're going for. From that point of view, I just thought it worked really well with Tom and Harry. They relax by play acting, this Flash Gordon-esque Captain Proton and his sidekick Buster Kinkade. The setup is there. It just takes you know, the I I would say that the it's the usual guff when it comes to holodeck breakdowns, is it's some transdimensional aliens that mistake it for reality. If you're a fan of those kind of Flash Gun Butt Rogers serials, which which filled my mornings as a kid, I think this story is just a a a real treat.
speaker-1: Well, interestingly for mine number six is a similar comment on gimmick episodes, 'cause obviously we've already acknowledged up top that the holodeck is actually a facilitator for gimmick episodes to some degree.
speaker-0: The holodeck is a gimmick.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it giv but it gives you a freedom, license to enjoy it in a way, because in the s in Bride of C Chaotica they're all specifically playing the role and we know these are fictional characters as opposed to expected to just believe people can't remember. And my number six reflects the recent run on Astrange New Worlds of the fairy tale stuff in terms of seeing performers play very different versions of themselves. And it wouldn't be a holodeck list without Broccoli. So my number six is Hollow Pursuits. Season three, episode twenty-one, the brilliant conceit of holodeck addiction, which is the question, as soon as you know the holodeck exists, the same way that they've never really done the replicate of food making you fat episode, which everyone is the is the other version, other episode people wanna see.
speaker-0: That would be the shallow hell episode. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, indeed. Absolutely right. Reg Barclays introduced Dwight Schultz from the A Team, introducing a classic Star Trek character who had incredible longevity, much more than I imagine he, let alone any of the writers, thought was possible, in terms of going, as you say, all the way into Voyager. He's an all time secondary recurring guest character on Next General. I remember the cheer he got when he appeared in First Contact, for instance. So this is Him trying to overcome his crushing shyness in the workplace in engineering with Geordie and the other crew members calling him Lieutenant Broccoli because he's so bumbling and seemingly inept. And he's going to therapy with Troy to try and overcome these problems. And she uncovers what he does in his spare time to let loose, which is a bonkers Three Musketeers era holodeck program where He is confident and cocky.
speaker-2: He's the hero of that story. Yeah.
speaker-1: He overcomes all these comedic versions of the his fellow crewmates, including a if you talk about a real person seeing their holographic sexualized holographic version, this is the this is the Piastor Resistance when Troy sees the goddess of love version that he's got her as in his programme. But the highlight is the laugh out loud little Riker. Which remains incredibly funny. The little spoiled little boy who's tiny and frakes' performance when he sees that after being very amused by the Troy version of Troy is really brilliant. Obviously we've had a few episodes at this point, but it's always been more the trapped inside the holodeck, which we're which is slightly more familiar, but this is this was a really interesting way to use it as a narrative character tool. Not early, but sort mid season three episodes to signal how good Next Generation was and was going to become. 'Cause it's very nuanced character focused writing and it's really clever. And also, you don't need to predetermine a character too much or overdo it. You can just bring them in and if you get a good script with good writers it really works. Sally Caves, I think, wrote the wrote the part, which is I'm not sure if she did any others, but brilliant, brilliant episode.
speaker-2: Yeah, it's on my short list but I never liked the resolution of it.
speaker-0: Oddly enough, it is much higher on my list.
speaker-2: No.
speaker-0: My number six is the big goodbye.
speaker-1: huh.
speaker-0: The holodeck episodes release begin with this episode. So that's important. You've got Lawrence Tierney, who I always loved as a character actor. He really bought his menace. I mean, he always tended to play villains, and you know, he he brought that gravitas to this role here. I thought he was terrific as Red Block. This is the one that establishes. that whole holodeck malfunction, you know, run amuck type of arc that we saw in episodes involving the holodeck on the various Star Trek shows over the years. It could be argued that they went to that well too many times. But if you're gonna do it, do it right. And this episode really does it right and establishes the template, like I'm saying, of you know, what would come in episodes of this kind. It showed you that they could do stories that take you to other places while never really leaving the enterprise. Again, this is the one that established for the writers that, hey, you know, if we want to expand on the characters or later on on the show, give them something different to do, or give actors and characters who are underutilized something to do that does not have to have long-lasting effects on the show, that doesn't have to quote unquote become canon because it happened in the holodeck. This is the episode that established that. So part of it is in here because it's such an important episode within the the Star Trek universe. And and part of it is in here because it's just a really entertaining, smart, fun episode. I really enjoyed Patrick Stewart finally having Picard get a hobby. He's not just the captain dealing with the crisis. Remember, this is a season one episode. how does he get his jollies? Well, being a detective, Dixon Hill. Entertainment value and purposefulness of the episode, I think, give it my number six. I was a little surprised. If you ask me, is it better than a couple of the ones I mentioned at the top as not making the cut? No. But we're doing top seven, and this is one of those pods that we're doing where I'm mixing favorite, best, and most important.
speaker-1: Me too. It's hard to pick separate them, wasn't it? Wood of the day.
speaker-2: Gates is fantastic in it.
speaker-0: Yeah shit.
speaker-2: Really gets the show off of comedy chops. Yeah. Yeah. I've also gone for a fun episode for my fifth spot. It's probably the most fun and h funniest holod episode in my list.
speaker-0: May I s are the le are the initials O B?
speaker-2: No. Not that serious at all. Yeah, it's it's lower decks.
speaker-1: Ooh it's the yeah, hang on, it's on my that was on my honor.
speaker-2: No, I think you're wrong as that. 'Cause it's season two's Ayacretaus not
speaker-0: No.
speaker-2: Season One's Crisis Point.
speaker-0: I excreted this morning.
speaker-2: I think most fans would probably have picked Crisis Point, but I watched both of this episode and I just came out enjoying I excretus more. It just made me laugh more. I think maybe it's because it's towards the end of season two, so the characters and performances are more bedded in. And I think Crisis Point is really good, but it it feels like a series of sketches and this it feels like more like a cohesive story. so I excretis is is the crew get tested, all the senior staff have to do kind of lower lower deck work and then the lower deckers have to make command cores. Out of all of it, I love Boimler's story where he's faced with escaping a board cube. And he's really unhappy that he doesn't get a hundred percent. So he keeps redoing it again and again and again, saving Borg babies and he repeats it until he gets a hundred percent, but then he's forced to sacrifice that score in order to beat the real villain of the piece, which is outside of the holodeck. It's full of callbacks as you'd expect. There's lots of references to stuff like Mirror Mirror, Ethics, Wrath of Khan, such as Spark First Contact. There's even an invasion of the body snatchers reference with the open mouth and pointing. Alice Krieger returns as the Borg Queen. Yeah, I just love this episode. It was written by Anne Kim, directed by Kim Arnt, which I'm probably saying wrong. Not much more to say about it, it's just it's it's a really fun comic episode.
speaker-1: So I'm going to reflect what Ian said, which is in terms of best and favourite. Because this one, my number five, if I have to if I'm gonna watch a holodeck episode, this is the one I watch. Without fail. But just a testament to what a sort of absolute gold mine of episodes the holodeck has thrown up over time. So maybe this is my favourite, but for th this list, for the for today's purposes, it's at number five, so it's elementary deer data. Which I adore. Always have. I've often talked about the key episodes when we do these lists in Next Gen, which sort of pointed towards as it sort of solidified its quality and its strengths, and the obvious ones very always where no one has gone before, data law, conspiracy, and then the first of season two for me is elementary dear data. It's just wonderfully done. It's gleeful. Brent Spiner getting to really sort of start to flex his Chops. It explores his his friendship with Geordie and it's really nice. It makes good use of Pulaski, who often didn't get used as well as she might have been. Also, and my favourite thing, my favourite thing to hop on about, it's a really fascinating big idea. A simple turn of phrase creates a new life form. And it's the first holographic life form we have on Star Trek. When that again would have great lineage, when Geordie says, Please create an opponent to beat data and the shipped computer creates a sentient Moriarty in Daniel Davis. Beautifully suave, brilliant, menacing, charming,
speaker-2: Have you seen him speak in his actual accent? Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it?
speaker-2: Yeah. And he it's a brilliant English accent.
speaker-1: It's one of the best English accents you hear in America do, for sure. He's really amazing and of course returns as a result. Interestingly, he didn't return till season six and ship in a bottle because they all assumed that Moriarty was public domain. And he wasn't.
speaker-2: Yeah, they had problems with the Conan Doyle estate, didn't they?
speaker-1: Yep, so then he didn't ret return until he was public. luckily it was in the lifespan of T N G on T
speaker-2: Are you sure on that? Because I think they'd they managed to settle and then I think the Conan Doyle estate, because of things like this, they saw how respectful it was to the character and they were actually more open to them. I don't think I don't think it did go into public domain until later.
speaker-1: Either way, it's still I'm still glad he returned. It's also to another callback to one of our other episodes, it's also a Rob Bowman episode and with that in Datalore, one of the reasons that I immediately every time I saw his name come up on next gen, I got excited.
speaker-0: My number five is Our Man Bashir. Deep Space Nine season four. So, you know, look, what a great idea, right? Let's have some fun with Bond. Take the show's most charming male character and let him run amok in i th the Bond world. Take our gorgeous stars, males and females alike, and put them in tuxedos and sexy outfits and and let them have some bravora screen time. I just thought it was so much fun, so entertaining. Again, it really played up the chemistry between Andy Robinson and Alexander Sadig. Avery Brooks looked like he was actually having fun as Dr. Noah. You know, the whole thing was just so cool and different and explored all of our 007 archetypes. But here's the thing: the episode also found just enough edge by presenting the varying viewpoints. Of being a spy, in the sense that, you know, to Bashir it was all fantasy, just fun and a and a lark. Whereas Garrick reminded everybody that, hey, real spying encompasses tough choices, double dealing, and death. I I will take some meat on the bone in addition to pure entertainment and then add in great sets, great costumes. Great performances. Great
speaker-1: School. It's a really good bone pastice school.
speaker-0: Exactly. so the the whole episode for me just works and it it it does that rare trick of working on both levels where there is some meat on the bone but it is also pure entertainment. So clear number five. And it's funny, I I I thought this would be much higher on my list.
speaker-1: Might be higher on one of our lists.
speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause if you said to me, you know, what's your f favorite episode of Deep Space Nine? This this is very high on my list.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, agree.
speaker-2: Because B Bashir has this fascination with the Bond archetype, it kind of retroactively explains why he and Garrick became friends.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But also section thirty one echoes off it as well, his involvement with them.
speaker-2: Although they didn't come till much later.
speaker-1: But I'm they must well, we'd we assume they they knew that connection.
speaker-0: Maybe, maybe not. But either way, y you know, the
speaker-1: Love to know.
speaker-0: the breadcrumbs are here, if you want to find them. Let's put it that way.
speaker-1: Absolutely.
speaker-2: Speaking of which, my full spot is Deep Space Nine Season six Inquisition which introduced section thirty one. Just to stay up front, it was written by Bradley Thompson and David Webble and directed by Michael Dawn.
speaker-1: He's no a merry man.
speaker-2: So I was very tempted to put Arman Bushir in my list and I didn't. A I knew Rich would be including it for sure. Ian, you obviously just added it in. I kinda wanted to offer an alternative and I think this episode is more important from both a franchise and overarching story point of view in terms of developing Bushir's character, deepening the Dominion crisis, and introducing A brilliant new addition to Trek Law which is section thirty one. Okay, its legacy has been marred.
speaker-1: Carnished would be a polite way of painted
speaker-0: Changed it.
speaker-1: besmirched Any more?
speaker-0: Runge.
speaker-2: Damage, destroyed.
speaker-0: Urinated on
speaker-2: I remember when seeing this for right
speaker-1: Tottenham.
speaker-2: Right. At the moment that I watched this for the very first time, it was it was a really exciting introduction to me. It was this shadow organization within the supposedly perfect Starfleet.
speaker-1: Toby responds to dark trope shocker.
speaker-2: Yes, what a surprise. They're working behind the scenes. They are a sanctioned intelligence syndicate operating without check. One of my favorite ever quotes is Cree Custodia Ipso Custode, who watches the watches. Mm-hmm. I learned that by reading the comic book, The The Watchman, and it's always stuck with me. I think William Sadler, absolutely perfect casting as Sloan, the head of section thirty one.
speaker-1: He he always deserved better in his career as something recognition I think. He was consistently brilliant. From Death and Bogus Journey, sure Shah and Democrat, he's really, really brilliant. Die Hard Two is great as well.
speaker-0: And he was very good on the show Roswell.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, so s I I think s he presents Sloane as this seemingly convivial wanting to get on with the crew, but also there's just this insidiousness and duplicitousness that I find just simply juicy and wonderful and I loved all the misdirection of the of the holodeck and Bashir slowly figuring it out in kind of in his persona as Bond, in that he he it it's one little moment that he suddenly realizes that about Worse injury and then he figures it out. And it's it's a really great twisty turny story, which I I think it was Michael Dorn who described as Kafka esque. And it was one which just kept you guessing right up to the section thirty one reveal. It's really a great, great episode and again it was a real pleasure to revisit this one.
speaker-1: Great episode. Yeah. I did keep hoping he would go, You thank my battleship during the episode, but he didn't. So my number four we've covered, and I won't go into it particularly because I talked about it in the underrated episodes as well, which is Bride of Chaotica. I love Bride of Chaotica. and as I said, it's been interesting the to to how this list has shuffled out. and again, I wouldn't have predicted the order. And it was a lot of moving around. I don't normally have a lot of moving around when I have a list, but I did with this one. But ultimately, exactly what you both said, it's enormous fun. I love getting to see Kate Mulgrew really dug her teeth into stuff. Now, I know the drama, she's a she's exemplary. That's why she works so well on Oranges and New Black. Making her a cast casting as a Russian is is just really brilliant because she reel your assholes with the accent. And it's a similar sort of dynamic here and Whenever she gets to have that twinkle in her eye as an actor, it's really, really brilliant. So that was the tipping point ultimately. Much as I love other episodes more, probably, this is just as you say, a fantastic bit of fun, bit of entertainment.
speaker-2: She goes she goes full screwball hepburn in this episode, doesn't she?
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.
speaker-0: Yes. All right, my number four, I let me give some backstory. I for the Star Trek magazine, I can't remember if one of you was the editor at the time, season seven, Deep Space Nine, I was interviewing Rick Berman for each issue and we were talking about what was coming up and he's like, You know, Ian, I want to mention an episode to you. You know, everybody says, we're so serious, we're so serious. Let me read you the title of our next episode that's about to go on the stage. Bada bing, bada bang. And he said, I'm gonna have this script FedEx to you so that you can, you know, we can talk about it next time. And I'm like, okay. The script was fabulous. It's just a lot of fun, but super thoughtful as well. I love this episode for a bunch of reasons. You know, one, it's different. Two, they had the balls to go with like a fantasy, weird episode like this in the middle of a very, very dark. series-ending dramatic military arc. And it was needed, and I thought it was a a a fun respite. I also love that they went there with the Vic Fontaine character. The crew gathers together to help a holodeck character, to help a holographic figure who now at this point in the show really means something to several of the characters. Now, not all of the characters, but even the characters with whom he hasn't interacted much are involved in trying to help him out of support for the characters, the the real life characters who are friends or consider this figure an important person in their lives. Jimmy Darren, may he rest in peace, was th this was one of his best opportunities as this character.
speaker-1: And you love you love six degrees of Star Trek and I just remember when he came on. my god, that's the dude from DJ Hook!
speaker-0: Right. Right. So, you know, and then people who were watching it was Right,
speaker-2: You would think that.
speaker-0: this is true. Get a life. And then there was the you know, the fact that for a lot of people, older Star Trek fans at the time who grew up with Gidget, were like, Holy cow, it's him. And a lot of younger fans didn't realize that Jimmy Darren was a you know a a major star in his day, in his own right, and super talented, good looking man. Could act, could sing, could dance. I'm in the Vic Fontaine fan club. I like the character. I know a lot of people did not. I understand why not, but I I like the character, what it brought to the other characters, and I like that here it's the other characters that brought something to him, which is there's love and support. And we got a casino episode in the middle of all of the war. I I just thought that was just super fun and super cool. Interestingly to me, I wonder if the season had been lighter, if this just would have been another light episode, kind of like the way we're complaining about what's been happening with Strange New Worlds. Too many gimmick episodes. Would this have been a gimmick episode if they weren't focusing so much on the the war arc near the end of the show? Maybe, maybe not. But within the context of season seven. It was a wild choice to go there and I thought they executed it beautifully. Wa one of my favorite episodes, period, and a a a great holodeck episode.
speaker-2: Well it it's Deep Space Nine does the rat pack, essentially.
speaker-0: Absolutely. No, it not yeah, not essentially it is. Yeah, I agree with your topes. Yeah.
speaker-1: Also, do you notice that that without fail, it's almost like the the DS nine Hollowsweet episodes, they all got they all got to look great. Whereas TFG was much more let's put in tights and make look silly. DSM was always we're gonna put them in lovely tuxedos or we're gonna dress them in love in fabulous nineteen sixties Bond wear, you know.
speaker-0: Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I remember interviewing Darren on the set and you know, he was dressed to the nines, that he had taken off his tuxedo jacket, but he had the shoes on and he was telling me stories about, you know, Dean Martin giving him shoes and it was just unbelievable. Great episode. And he was a he was a a a nice man too, as well.
speaker-1: Always helps.
speaker-2: Ian and I are on some kind of synergy wave because I've also gone for a Vic Fontaine story in my third spot. But naturally I've gone the darker end with season seven's It's Only a Paper Moon. We've covered this episode a fair bit before. I think it's all a favourite of ours. Mm-hmm. It is a dark story, it is about the impact of war after the events of AR five five eight and the effect of PTS. you know, it's a painful watch because it takes a usually very positive character in Nog and forces them into a place that's that's really mentally and emotionally dark. Stellar performances all round, especially Aaron Eisenberg. But I think also Surp Lofton and Max Gronchick are really good in this as well. And I do I think you've mentioned this before, Ian, that several combat veterans contacted Eisenberg afterwards to just complimenting me on his performance and and the story.
speaker-0: And to say how much they related to the performance and the character.
speaker-2: Yeah. The story was by David Mack and John J. Oldover. Teleplay by Ron Moore, directed by Anson Williams.
speaker-0: Just stop there for one second. Look at those names. You you're you're talking about authors and editors who crafted the episode. You're talking about Potse Happy
speaker-1: I was about to say that.
speaker-0: Days directing the episode. I mean it was really an interesting mix of talent that that made this one come together. Sorry to interrupt, Tobes.
speaker-2: I I was just gonna finish on that it ends with a a positive message summed up by Vic Fontaine and unusually for me I picked out a quote and it's Look kid, I don't know what's going to happen to you out there. All I can tell you is that you've got to play the cards life deals you. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but at least you're in the game. And I think that's actually a very positive thing for people to take forward. I think that's a good way of looking at things. You don't know what's gonna happen, but go for it.
speaker-1: Great. My number three is another Deep Space Nine, and the primary reason I wanted someone to go before me is because that way I wouldn't fall into the trap of having to talk about our man Bashir again. It's my number three for all the reasons that you both already expressed, but Ian specifically having it in his list. But crucially in the thing you said which is what places it higher for me is the the subtleties. Is it more fun than than do I like it more than elementary data? Maybe, maybe not, but it's a little bit more serious. And that mirroring of the of the character work is really, really deft within something very silly. And the only other thing I'd add is it was the longest episode shoot for Deep Space Nine, I believe, in the entire run. And it it actually aired in the US nine or ten days after Goldeneye. was released into US theatres. Which is, of course, the film which reinvigorated Bond, so very timely.
speaker-0: My number three is ship in a bottle. So it's interesting to me that it's two Moriarty episodes. This one is bigger, better, and more interesting. I think Moriarty gets treated with dignity here rather than as a typical villain. This guy wants to be alive. He thinks he's living and he wants others to accept him as a sentient being. Which immediately gives that gravitas that Star Trek is known for. I mean, we're we're talking LOL territory here, but with a villainous character, which is interesting. He does manage to to leave the holodeck, or does he? And that that spoiler. That tests the the crew and us as an audience, which I thought was, you know, that whole simulation within a simulation reveal was very, very, very cool.
speaker-1: Do think we got the doctor because of Moriarty to some degree?
speaker-2: He's definitely a precursor.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's absolutely, you know, a potential link between those. It's a a continuation rather than a pure sequel. Yeah.
speaker-1: Read.
speaker-0: Does the enterprise bear some responsibility to him for the previous events that now carry over to this? It's it's a it's a fair question.
speaker-1: Geordie definitely does for creating him.
speaker-0: But w the question is what? What do we owe him? What does the crew owe him? And at what price for giving him sentience if you do that? And
speaker-2: Do we think, because Picard did promise that they would do some research, do we think that anyone did anything? Interimperium?
speaker-0: No
speaker-1: We know they don't, they forgot.
speaker-0: And and that becomes your whole Rath of Khan situation. Did did you leave somebody behind, thus angering and empowering them to impact your future? It was cool to see him again on Picard decades later. Yeah, it was. Did they do enough with that? Not really. And again, that was like, you know, more in Data's head than anything else. Yeah.
speaker-1: I was like, ooh, and then not very much.
speaker-0: It was fleeting, but it was it was it was a cool throwback. I I just find this to be a very cool episode, a very important episode, a very entertaining episode, a very thoughtful episode. I it was cool to see a sequel several years later.
speaker-1: Even though they'd have done it before though, wouldn't they? 'Cause I think Renee pitched it in season three as well, but of course we talked about the rights and Right. So
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I've seen him on Broadway a few times, Daniel Davis. He's he's a great guy and a good actor. And it was funny because he became known in the States for the nanny.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. When he played another Englishman, didn't he?
speaker-0: A very fastidious guy who stole the show. And I will say this about his performance as Moray, he really underplayed it beautifully. I I thought he made beautiful acting choices as the characters. Yeah, that makes him more of a threat.
speaker-1: Agreed.
speaker-2: The second spot is another Voyager episode, season three's worst case scenario. This would genuinely be in a top ten favourite Voyager episodes list for me. I absolutely love this one. It's it's kind of surprising that I've never mentioned this episode before, to be perfectly honest in one of our episodes. Why does it work so well? Right. In previous episodes, we've all criticized the too easy integration of the Marquis crew into J May's Starflight crew. Other than a few early bumps, they just got along way too easily. And via Tuvox holodeck novel, this redresses that by exploring the idea of the Marquis rebelling against both J Maway and the rest of the Voyager crew. We will never know. If the writers had explored this concept more vigorously early on in the show's run, whether this episode would have worked so well. Because it appears in season three towards the end. I think it works because of that distance. It really captures the crew we've come to love, who always work together at odds. The return of Seska, Martha Hackett, to haunt the Voyager crew from the grave, I thought was a brilliant touch. And a great twist. As well as being a rollicking Voyager episode with some real jeopardy. There's also plenty of humour in there as well. And there's the addition of some self aware commentary about the writing process. Which in this case was Kenneth Biller. And the episode was directed by Alexander Singer. Great stuff. I love this episode.
speaker-1: Great episode. It is a great episode. And I do love seeing Seska back. So, my number two is the other Moriarty episode too, shipping a bottle. So I agree again, Ian, I know it's becoming a bad habit, that this is a better episode, the elementary dear data. It doesn't quite have some of the the the fun to to some degree. But and not only that though, it's so in so thoughtful. someone who bangs on and on about the concepts and wanting them to be grant grand and philosophical and thought provoking, this is as about as thought provoking as someone can get, especially now alarmingly prescient. I was in the car discussing the the the list earlier today and suddenly realised you might as well be talking about AI now. so it's as ever Star Trek's ahead of the game. I don't really have much to add except for the fact that to bring things full circle to some degree, Barkley's in it. added late in the game but so we can have th the the last word and it's just really nice to see him in any holiday episode.
speaker-2: He's actually though, he's integral to the story because he doesn't know about Moriarty. That's true. 'Cause he wasn't on the ship. So when he starts the programme up, it actually makes sense because Geordie o obviously would not have done that.
speaker-0: It's kinda like Chekhov never meeting Khan.
speaker-1: I was thinking the exact same thing, I was trying to work it away of going, Yeah, funny at checkoff new can then But anyway.
speaker-0: He was in the bathroom.
speaker-1: Brilliant, so that was my number two.
speaker-0: My number two has been mentioned already, and it's just a great episode. Hollow Pursuits, TNG season three. This has become even more important and relevant of an episode over time, if you ask me, because Barkley is a troubled character. He's he was in 11 episodes, by the way, and first contact. He's not just going into the holodeck for fun. He's going into the holodeck for emotional reasons. And he's a deeply troubled, conflicted, jealous, but decent human being trying to make his own world better.
speaker-2: Yeah, he's addicted.
speaker-0: He's created exaggerated versions of the people around him, but he controls the narrative. It literally you could almost picture a psychologist writing this episode or or or vetting the teleplag, saying, yeah, Riker would be tiny, or This would be that. And it just it really works. There's there's comedy, but comedy can be tragic, right? That's where some comedy comes from. So the payoff is
speaker-2: Actually comedy.
speaker-0: tragic comedy. That that is the payoff right in there. I mean, he is, to use your word that you just said, Toby, a addicted. I mean, he is becoming wildly dependent for his reality to be stabilized by going into the fantasy. And that's not gonna be a successful recipe for for this man's sanity. It makes you think is you're laughing. Are you laughing at him? Are you laughing with him? Should you be laughing at all? Is this is this at all funny? It's dangerous. It's unhealthy. It's cathartic on the other hand.
speaker-1: It's like laughing at Arthur, Dudley Moore and Arthur in a way.
speaker-0: Right, are you laughing at a drunk or with a drunk? Is he is he cute or pathetic? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when everything right now is virtual and we really do have people falling in love with avatars and you know, getting married to avatars and and all this kind of stuff, this episode is is more timely than ever. It it begs the question, when does escapism become your reality? And that line blur is is where the trouble starts for some people and where the trouble ends. It's kinda like a gambling addiction. Is it is it fun? Is it sweat inducing? Is it a thrill? Yup. Will it bite you in the ass if you're you're not careful? And the answers are yes, yes, and yes. I I rewatched this one and I almost watched it again right after watching it just to see if 'cause I hadn't seen it in in ages. And it it h a it holds up. B it's better than I remember it. C, I think it's a very important episode for all of the characters because it also gives us a sense of not just how Barclay sees himself, but how an outside character sees our crew. I actually had dinner last night with a a a good friend who is a therapist and she would have a feel better watching this episode because it it does tie in jealousy and Reverence at the same time. I mean he respects all of these characters, but he wants to be them. And there therein lies the danger now.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Well I was gonna say it's also a meta commentary on fandom and living your life through a fiction, fictional thing that you love. Although it wouldn't have been expressed in those terms back in eighty nine ninety, so
speaker-0: Also, would we agree that this was of the eleven appearances, Dwight Schultz's best? I would.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think so. I would. But although I do like these transport episode.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I I'd go with this at number one.
speaker-1: Yeah, I agree. I agree.
speaker-2: Take a guess at what my number one is?
speaker-0: No, I don't really care.
speaker-1: Wow. is there a horror holodeck episode? Can't remember.
speaker-2: Go on, have a guess. As soon as I've guessed yours.
speaker-0: I don't think it's mine. So I'm not gonna say it yet.
speaker-1: I know it's not mine.
speaker-0: Give us a hint.
speaker-2: It has already been mentioned.
speaker-1: shipping a bottle? Correct.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: This is a this is a favourite because I rewatched it but it it was it just evoked memories of of the first time I watched it and how many surprises are in it. It's just packed with them. You know, like any good Sherlock Holmes story, it's full of twists. First you've got Dayton and Geordie returning his homes at Watson, which is always fun. You've got the reveal of Moriarty, which I thought was absolute perfection. It was the way it was done, really, really brilliant. I'm s gonna slightly disagree with Ian on this in that I think he is more of a villain in this story than he was in elementary data. Although he kidnaps Pulaski in that episode, here he's trying to destroy the whole ship unless he gets what he wants. I mean I think that's a pretty big step up
speaker-1: There's a bit of righteousness to his cause though in this one.
speaker-2: Yeah, but I think also I mean that you could say that for elementary deer data as well. But I just I I don't know, I I think he's more acquiescent in elementary dear data, whereas here he's like, No, you give me what I want. I don't
speaker-0: But I
speaker-2: care if you think you can't do it, you figure out a way, otherwise we're all gonna die 'cause I've got nothing to lose. I'm just gonna go back into being alive inside the hollow archive unless you figure this out. So I think that's that was great. you had the return of Reg. Barkley, which you've mentioned before. There was the introduction of Stephanie Beecham as the Countess Regina Bartholomew. Hilarious take on a British name there. I think most Americans probably know her from Dynasty, but for me, i I recognized her from Tenko, which I used to watch with my parents.
speaker-1: So did I, watched Tanko with my mum.
speaker-0: Can I tell you though that I I've never seen a show called Dynasty, but I did see one in the States called Dynasty.
speaker-2: Dynasty. Yeah. Or the Colby's. She was in Brave Funch.
speaker-0: That was awful.
speaker-1: It's o it's only because America's not old enough to actually have a proper dynasty.
speaker-2: The thing is I can't say dynasty because it always comes up as dynasty.
speaker-1: Nasty
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-2: I think the first twist that the Picard Day Troan Barclay are still on hologram is fantastic. The second twist is a little bit more telegraphed, but it's still a fantastic moment with p Picard essentially outwitting Mariarty. I think the twist's great, I think the story holds up. And I think this was probably my first exposure to simulation theory. Mm. This was years before The Matrix. Although it had been I think it has been tackled in science fiction.
speaker-1: been tackled in philosophy for you know, in different forms throughout history.
speaker-2: Neither of you mentioned it, but I thought it was great. The last line in the episode is Reg's going computer end program. That's exactly the sort of thing that I would do. Yeah.
speaker-0: Beautiful touch, yeah, and it right in keeping with the character.
speaker-2: I'm g very quickly gonna run through my honourable mentions. Next gen we had Big Goodbye, Hollow Pursuits, Fistful of Datas and Phantasms, Deep Space Nine, Arm Ambashir, His Way, Bada Bing, Bada Bang. Voyager, real life, killing game, Tinker Tana Doctor Spy. And I wanna give a shout out to Prodigy's Kobayashi as well. That's it.
speaker-1: Right. So what's my number one tip?
speaker-2: Your number one, Rich, is your favourite, Arman Bashir.
speaker-1: We know it's not. I know. Exactly.
speaker-2: Uhhuh. 'Cause I g I forewarned you, Rich. I wonder if I hadn't forewarned you whether you would
speaker-1: No, no, no, no, no, no. It would have been the same.
speaker-2: Pashere is definitely your favourite.
speaker-1: No, but no, but as I said, but elementary data's close. It No, it's a bit of both. No, I'd already shuffled it around when you said it. I'd already I did this ad this this a while ago. And it was always this f this one, which is it's only a paper moon. For all the reasons that you guys have said, but because you won't find a better piece of drama in anything, let alone Star Trek. And It subverts expectation, it offers you alternative portrayals and view of character key characters you normally would have been left in a box. It allowed a recurring actor in Aaron Eisenberg to do career-best work and and as you said, it had social value. It had a a lasting impact and was meaningful for people who who really needed it. It's interesting that it was originally pitched as a clerk's bar. story rather than Vic's and it got shifted and then Ira when he did that also added in Nog's injury which had happened a couple of episodes before and and then when R Ron Moore did a rewrite he just focused purely on the Nog storyline and I think it's all the better for it. And the only other thing is that where was the Ralph Mouth directed episode? What a missed opportunity. No, it's this is this is as good as Star Trek gets.
speaker-2: Does he appear in it, or
speaker-1: He does in Voyager. Donnie Most appears in Voyager. Can't remember what he in, but he's in it. Right.
speaker-0: They both were at one of the Star Trek conventions together. I got to moderate that panel with the two of them, which was a lot of fun.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: My number one, go ahead, Tobes.
speaker-2: Right, your number one is take me out to the holo suite.
speaker-0: At this time for number one with It's Only a Paper Moon. So here is, you know, that dichotomy for me between the the serious and the entertaining. It's only a paper moon, as Rich just eloquently said, is not only great Star Trek, it's just great television. And it's a very mature use of the technology. I obviously he can walk, he can dance, he can work, he can live his life in this world. And the thing that's beautiful about this episode is the hollow suite is not broken. It's not malfunctioning. They're not trapped in there. All
speaker-1: This is a great point.
speaker-0: by choice. It's doing what it's supposed to do, but it's having a different impact on the characters because of that. There's no finer performance given by Aaron Eisenberg in the series than in this episode. And kudos to Ira and to Rick and the rest of the Higher ups at Deep Space Nine at the time for giving an episode this important, this late in the show, in the middle of a war arc, to a supporting actor. God bless him, Aaron delivered in spades in this episode. I mean, the guy deserved an Emmy nomination. The performance was was that good. It's interesting that the holodeck is what forces, compels him back into reality.
speaker-1: I hope an AI therapist would actually do, but probably doesn't.
speaker-0: Correct. I d I just thought that was it's it's a beautiful episode and it holds up
speaker-2: It's really interesting that in order to get Nog back into feeling confident is it plays into him making profit through the casino.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Takes him back to his to his ba his his fundamental nature as a frangivis culture.
speaker-2: It's really smart doing that.
speaker-0: Yeah, good point. And then take me out to the holo suite. everything about it is entertaining. The visuals, the acting, the the way they i integrate baseball, Max Grudenchik having to pretend he couldn't play when he really could, actors pretending that they can play when they really can't. Death to the opposition. You could rattle off lines that are just hysterical. Odo is the umpire. Looking at the image of him as the umpire makes me laugh out loud. Wharf in a in a baseball. uniform is just so stupid that it's it's brilliant. Captain Solok, that was a a great character, a great foil for Cisco and Gregory were how do I pronounce his name? Wagrowski was top notch. Again, we were in the middle of the Dominion War here, and along comes this bit of pure entertainment also in season seven. In life you need a reprieve when you're in a a dark, bitter situation or place. And This was that for the characters and this was that for the audience as well. I thought it was a a smart move by Ira and company to throw this in there. And here's the interesting thing. They lose. The Niners lose. It it's not the happy ending that the the characters and particularly Cisco wanted here. You know, in a in a in a perfect entertainment world, you know, everybody would be sharing a big hug on the ball field. Not quite. And that ties into the reality of the show going on at the time. And I mean within the show, you know, they're in the middle of a war. you can't win every battle. Half the fun is playing and giving it your best. And they celebrate anyway. That's the other key point. They lose but they celebrate. But the w the winning wasn't really the point, the it was the experience. So those are my two.
speaker-2: There's good news and there's bad news in.
speaker-0: What's that?
speaker-2: The bad news is, take me out to the holo suite is not a holodeck, sorry.
speaker-0: Stop.
speaker-2: It's not, it doesn't count. The holodeck is just a setting. It's not a story beat. So they could have easily recreated a baseball pitch anywhere on Baedor, for instance, and and played there. So it the holodeck or the holo suite in this case, it's irrelevant to the story. But the good news is, because you made a tie, you you already have a number one, so it's good.
speaker-0: Alright, I'm glad you accept that.
speaker-1: Wow. So those are our top seven favourite holodeck episodes. A lot of overlap, which is not always the case. It was interesting. And we all agree how good the holodeck's proven to be for Star Trek in terms of drama, story, character, and so in as a dramatic dev device, a huge success. If only they could really make one. They're trying really hard.
speaker-2: Do you know what that I was just thinking about that? I think I mean I would love a holodeck, but I would be concerned about the Barclay effect that I would never leave.
speaker-0: And especially look at AI now, all the problems that's causing. Where what's reality? What if what if you could film what's happening in a holodeck? Right? Just look at the implications of if there's so much on the internet now that isn't real.
speaker-1: Yeah and we have a vo we have volumes, so we have the way to do that. And it's only it's only a jump for the two to come together, isn't it? Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Please let us know what your favourite holiday episodes are, whether you think we're right, wrong, brilliant, awesome, terrible, ever. Please do also rate, review and share the podcast and you can any w all the ways to contact us are included in the description. And also it's a little sneak preview. We don't normally advertise guests ahead of time, but we've got a couple of biggies coming up. To round out our season. So we would just like to nudge you towards anticipation for none other than William T. Riker himself, Jonathan Frakes talking about first contact on its anniversary year. But also, and was struck by this one today, our f season finale. I really want to know what Nicholas Meyer thinks of Elementary Deer Data. I bet you he's never watched it, but I'd be very curious. So Tune in for Nick Meyer on Star Trek 4 The Voyage Home and Star Trek 6 the Undiscovered Country at the beginning of November. Other than that, we'll see you beyond the final frontier.
speaker-0: Live long and prosper, everybody.
speaker-2: You've changed it.
speaker-1: Full full full.
speaker-2: Peace, love, and logic, isn't it?
speaker-0: So funny. That is so fun. No, no, no, let me let is it is. That's so funny. Do it and set me up again, please.
speaker-2: We should keep all this bit. I quite like the fun endings. Yeah. All right.
speaker-1: Peace, love and logic, everyone. fuck you!
speaker-0: You know what, you know what, Rich? Two two of the three for you.
speaker-2: To raw a bit.
speaker-0: Cheers, everybody. Thanks for listening.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Thanks for listening to Beyond the Final Frontier, a Star Trek podcast with Rich Matthews, Ian Spanning and Toby Weidman. If you want to get in contact with us, you can email us on beyondfpod at gmail.com or check us out on social media. You can even join our Patreon at BFF Beyond the Final Frontier. Huge thanks go out to Alex Weidman for the brilliant original music. Please search Alex Weidman Composer on YouTube to hear the full fantastic theme and more. Also, thanks goes to award winning voiceover artist Sissy Jones for our excellent opening monologue. Find out more about her incredible work at sissyjones.com. And of course, last but not least, our brilliant artwork comes from the designer Russell Seal. Discover more of his work on Behance.net slash Russell Seal. Thanks again and see you next episode, Beyond the Final Frontier.
