[00:00:00] **Michael:** Architects and engineers usually work for separate companies, which makes coordination messy when project scope changes.
[00:00:05] **Michael:** And yet most people become business owners because they love what they do, not because they're [00:00:10] good at business.
[00:00:11] **Michael:** So in this episode, you will learn how two firms who work together think about effective project collaboration and business strategy.
[00:00:17] **Michael:** Meet Studio GWA and Angus Young.
[00:00:19] **Michael:** Studio [00:00:20] GWA is an architecture and planning firm based in Rockford, Illinois, led by Principals Jennifer Spencer and Aaron Holverson.
[00:00:26] **Michael:** They are Monograph customers, and they invited one of their favorite [00:00:30] project collaborators to talk about how they work together.
[00:00:32] **Michael:** Angus Young is a 60-year-old integrated architecture and engineering practice led by a team of principals, including Principal Engineer Steven [00:00:40] Genin.
[00:00:40] **Michael:** Make sure to listen to the end to hear what they think AI means for the future of architecture and engineering collaboration.
[00:00:46] **Michael:** Let's get into it.
[00:00:47] **Chris:** How'd y'all start working together?
[00:00:48] **Jennifer:** Well,
## [00:00:49] How did you start working together?
[00:00:49] **Jennifer:** I'll jump in [00:00:50] because I think our first project with Steven was actually a collaboration through another owner. Um, we met, I, I think it was a, a job meeting, um, just, uh, a few [00:01:00] blocks from our office here, a few blocks from his new Rockford office. We are located in the Midwest. Um, and that, I think that was our first introduction to each other.
[00:01:09] **Jennifer:** [00:01:10] But then it wasn't long before I think, uh, Steven showed up with, I don't know, maybe a 12 pack of beer and a couple bottles of wine to the office on a Thursday. [00:01:20] And I think we've been, um, great friends and collaborators since. So, did I miss anything, Steven?
[00:01:29] **Jennifer:** You [00:01:30] forgot about that, didn't you? I
[00:01:32] **Steve:** might not have, gotta have fun in the architecture engineering world, so,
[00:01:38] **Jennifer:** but it worked, you know?
[00:01:39] **Aaron:** After that, [00:01:40] I don't know what, how, how that project continued. I don't remember which project that was even at this point, but we've now, we've, we've worked together on, uh, working on a couple of projects together right now, and we've, it's, [00:01:50] it's kind of been a constant flow. they're, uh, good to work with, easy to, uh, easy to connect with.
[00:01:55] **Aaron:** They're down the street or, uh, or up the road depending on which office and yeah, it's been [00:02:00] good.
[00:02:00] **Steve:** Yeah, I would say from any, yeah, from the architectural side, now we get to work with them as they develop their new building over in mm-hmm. Monroe area. So that's exciting.
[00:02:09] **Robert:** [00:02:10] It's so amazing to hear sometimes how relationships form.
[00:02:13] **Michael:** That's Robert Yuen - Architect turned CEO and Co-Founder of Monograph. 6 years ago, Robert created Monograph to make [00:02:20] business easier for Architects & Engineers so they can focus on what they love and do best.
[00:02:24] **Robert:** Jumped in a little bit earlier and like reminded that we met Jennifer and Erin two mm-hmm.
[00:02:29] Ago
[00:02:29] **Robert:** [00:02:30] at the a i, a national conference in San Francisco when, um, I was on my way to a ping pong event hosted by CBG. Um, it's, it's [00:02:40] incredibly, it's. Powerful. Sometimes when I reflect back on life and how small little events across our lives can empower, uh, an ongoing relationship, which is [00:02:50] really, really amazing.
[00:02:51] **Robert:** Yeah. And I'm really sad. Didn't make it to that ping pong event. Mm-hmm. We were leaving, but I hope you two had a ton of fun. I completely missed it.
[00:02:59] **Aaron:** It [00:03:00] was a good time. That was a good time.
## [00:03:02] What projects do you focus on?
[00:03:02] **Robert:** I would love to know, like, what kind of projects do you, do your firms focus on? Like, is it, you know, the, is there a range between residential [00:03:10] work, commercial work, um, civic work?
[00:03:13] **Robert:** Like, love to give everyone here a little bit more context. So what type of projects both of your firms work on?
[00:03:19] **Aaron:** Go [00:03:20] ahead, Eric, jump in there. Go ahead Eric. Uh, our, our, uh, our firm studio GWA, we mostly, but not exclusively, we're mostly in the adaptive reuse, um, especially historic [00:03:30] tax credit project. World.
[00:03:32] **Aaron:** Um, not all of our projects fall under that category, but a lot of 'em are either that or adjacent. Um, so a lot of old buildings, a lot [00:03:40] of, uh, a lot of different uses as a result. So we're not necessarily in the, the occupancy type is varied, um, pretty dramatically. Um, [00:03:50] we don't, one thing we don't really do a lot of is single family residential.
[00:03:53] **Aaron:** We are mostly in the multi-family commercial. We do a lot of restaurants and things of that sort. People [00:04:00] love the, the, the adaptive reuse spaces for gathering spaces. So we've, uh, we've done a little bit of civic work as well. Um, had an, we have a [00:04:10] number of, of civic clients and municipalities that we work with because we also have an arm on the urban planning.
[00:04:16] **Aaron:** We have an urban planning group as well. Um, [00:04:20] and so we sometimes there's a little bit of crossover between the architecture and urban design, urban planning, um, for some projects in that way, which is really nice. Um, but. [00:04:30] Yeah, so mostly adaptive reuse, mostly commercial, um, in some form,
[00:04:35] **Steve:** but, and we differ slightly within our project styles.
[00:04:38] **Steve:** I think that's what's [00:04:40] made this such a, or a big proponent of what's been so successful between this relationship is the adaptive reuse and kind of the understanding that they have with those type of buildings. [00:04:50] Um, from Angus Young side, we're more general practice, so anything from commercial and industrial, we will do high-rise residential R two for different applications, but a [00:05:00] majority of it, anything from, you know, industrial processing beef plant facilities to commercial spaces to government facilities, city halls, things of that nature.
[00:05:09] **Steve:** [00:05:10] So we will, and a lot of times that's, um, I would say dependent based on the market and where we're looking. We will travel pretty much anywhere for industrial work. [00:05:20] And then for kind of more of the commercial work, we're more local, Midwest.
[00:05:24] **Jennifer:** You guys are full service. So you have all the MEP, um, [00:05:30] arm of it, which is who we usually, you know, I think why we usually team up with you guys and, you know, we were talking prior to starting, uh, [00:05:40] this podcast, but sometimes we even go after the same projects architecturally. Um, and I think it's, I think it's great.
[00:05:47] **Jennifer:** Competition is great. Um, and, [00:05:50] um, but it's, it's always been a, a good collaboration and I think having an MEP team who has that architecture side is, is really only a benefit because there's, I, [00:06:00] I think it's a little bit more built in as far as what they, what they expect and, and they know how we work already because they're sitting next to them, you know, in their own office.
## [00:06:09] How many people and projects are in your firms?
[00:06:09] **Chris:** So just for a little [00:06:10] more context, how many folks are on each team and like how many active projects? And because you have like this portfolio of different types, do you have a sense for what that rough [00:06:20] breakdown would be?
[00:06:20] **Aaron:** You asked this question a lot and I think we, we answer a little bit. Uh, uh, the people, that part we can, we can say for sure.
[00:06:27] **Aaron:** Um, I believe we're 14 full [00:06:30] time. Mm-hmm. Um, so we're relatively small, um, project active projects and, and everybody on here is probably in the, in [00:06:40] the AE world. So they understand the challenges of keeping track of all of 'em. 'cause some of 'em go away for a year or two at a time and then come back and you never know if they're fully there or [00:06:50] gone.
[00:06:50] **Aaron:** Um, but, uh, how many would you say, Jen, that we are actively, we have as far as active projects in the all, in all the phases?
[00:06:59] **Jennifer:** I would say at [00:07:00] least over a couple dozen. Yeah.
[00:07:01] **Aaron:** You
[00:07:02] **Jennifer:** know, again, some are a couple years old, they're still hanging out there. Some are, they move super slow and some move fast, [00:07:10] but, and it might be actually be more, um, but
[00:07:12] **Aaron:** our actual job list is much longer than that.
[00:07:15] **Aaron:** But it's whether or not, yeah. You know, some of them we don't hit very often, but we probably have between [00:07:20] 50 or 60 in, in our actual
[00:07:22] mm-hmm.
[00:07:22] **Aaron:** Active job list. But I wouldn't say they're all active.
[00:07:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:27] **Aaron:** True. Which is plenty for our firm size. [00:07:30]
[00:07:32] **Steve:** From our side, we're 62, not including interns. So we, I think this year we have five or six interns coming in to help out, [00:07:40] um, active projects.
[00:07:41] **Steve:** Thankfully, analytics keeps track of that. For me, we have 384 active projects right now.
[00:07:47] Mm-hmm. And that
[00:07:48] **Steve:** ranges like studio GWA [00:07:50] from anywhere, from SDS, all the way through construction. So from that side, I would say, you know, day-to-day basis our dds, CDs and SD projects are [00:08:00] probably in the hundreds, but it mm-hmm.
[00:08:02] **Steve:** It varies depending on seasonality and kind of workflow and sub project size.
## [00:08:07] How do you structure your projects?
[00:08:07] **Chris:** i'd love to hear more about how you [00:08:10] structure those projects out.
[00:08:11] **Aaron:** That's always a, a challenge from our side when we're, when we're looking at them, we try to be as consistent. I think like everybody, you, you [00:08:20] try to set up the perfect system that's gonna hit everything. And despite our great attempts, it never works. That, that something that, you know, there's [00:08:30] always, there's always some caveat within a project that that changes things.
[00:08:33] **Aaron:** And it doesn't, the, the standard doesn't apply quite as well. So we still though try to, you know, as [00:08:40] far as phasing and timeline, you know, phasing, we use a standard phasing for pretty much everything, with the exception of, like I mentioned, we have an urban planning, um, side of the firm [00:08:50] that's a completely different animal.
[00:08:52] **Aaron:** Um, and, um, we. Those, we get some interesting named phases and interesting grouping just because [00:09:00] it's usually by a different type of work with a municipality outlined by their, their particular, um, their particular
[00:09:08] need at
[00:09:08] **Aaron:** that point. Yeah, their [00:09:10] particular requirements. Um, but on the architecture side, architecture and interior design side, we are typically in the, you know, conceptual design [00:09:20] schematic on our way on through, um, construction administration side of things.
[00:09:25] **Aaron:** Um, and there may be slight variations depending [00:09:30] upon, um, the projects that have gone longer and scope changes. Inevitably we end up maybe with some additional service sides. Um, [00:09:40] but typically we try to stay in those standard phases. Um, duration becomes a challenge though, and, uh, we've, we've also, I. We've also noticed, [00:09:50] um, and Jen jump in anywhere here, but we've noticed that, uh, uh, maybe sometimes we're a little bit more, uh, uh, optimistic with the, [00:10:00] the phase durations.
[00:10:02] **Aaron:** And I don't mean necessarily with what we can accomplish, though we are off, obviously off sometimes and in timelines there, but also optimistic on response [00:10:10] times and how project's gonna move through. We all hope and anticipate the project goes from schematic design to construction documents and into construction in a consistent fashion.
[00:10:19] **Aaron:** [00:10:20] But, you know, project financing changes, the, the, the world situation changes and everything adjusts the same way as market conditions adjust, [00:10:30] schedules change, um, which becomes an interesting project management, uh, challenge, um mm-hmm. Both internally and then also with client side of things. [00:10:40] So I don't know.
[00:10:41] **Aaron:** Other comments on that, Jen?
[00:10:42] **Jennifer:** No, I would agree. I think the challenge too is making sure that we keep our MEP team or consultants, you know, in the loop [00:10:50] when things do change, if they change. Um, I know we've shared the monograph has that nice, uh, ability to share schedules. You know, you send the link and that's, it's always like a [00:11:00] live, um, live schedule link.
[00:11:01] **Jennifer:** And that's, that's been helpful,
[00:11:03] **Jennifer:** um, as everyone knows.
[00:11:05] **Jennifer:** The other issue is when you're creating these proposals and you're putting these schedules [00:11:10] together for the owners and they don't quite understand why it's gonna take so long, and you're trying to tell them, no, actually this is like, if everything in the world like aligned, if every star aligned, [00:11:20] we think we could get it done in the short amount of time, but it's not gonna happen.
[00:11:24] **Jennifer:** And they don't un, you know, you try to give them examples of some hurdles that might actually, you know, that we might come [00:11:30] across. And I think that's where I personally struggle is, is conveying that to, to our clients on. On the things that they, the reality, the, the [00:11:40] true reality of, of where, um, things will likely end up.
[00:11:43] **Jennifer:** And Steven, I don't know if you have any, uh, tricks that you can share with us, but it's always, seems always like a, it's a struggle. [00:11:50]
[00:11:52] **Steve:** I, I would agree. And I think in today's world too, with everything being more and more fast paced mm-hmm. Um, we obviously try and stick to your [00:12:00] standard schedules, your standard SDDD phases phased approach.
[00:12:04] **Steve:** Sometimes those phases start to get a little blurred, which makes it more and more challenging. Um, the design [00:12:10] side of things, um, as teams, you know, their, their expectations and then, or their realistic expectations, and then maybe a client's desire and just trying to manage [00:12:20] that from a project management standpoint or an owner.
[00:12:22] **Steve:** Um, being able to communicate kind of what is reality to the owner in, in a nice fashion, I would say. [00:12:30] So as far as tricks, Jen. Be patient. I don't know. Yeah, there's no, there's no real way. It's just, to be honest, it's just having the [00:12:40] tolerance and being able to communicate and listen to your clients.
[00:12:43] **Steve:** That's all, that's what we try and do. It seems to work out most of the time.
[00:12:47] Mm-hmm. [00:12:50]
[00:12:50] **Steve:** Or just push your end engineering team a little harder and make them go faster. And we do that. Sometimes we do that, sometimes.
[00:12:57] **Jennifer:** Well, you know, but that's, it's true. Something that we have [00:13:00] to kind of always remind ourselves when we're putting our, the proposal together or the timelines together.
[00:13:05] **Jennifer:** Um, this isn't just us, you know, because our consultants are [00:13:10] lagging, structural is gonna be behind us. I, me p's gonna be behind us because we need to develop those base plans and then, you know, we think we're gonna be done at this date, but they're not. And it's, you know, I think [00:13:20] it's something to always, you know, I have to remind myself all the time that it's not just about me.
[00:13:25] **Jennifer:** We have other, we have other friends that we have to consider. So,
[00:13:28] **Robert:** This is what makes [00:13:30] architecture, uh, in the process of making the built environment incredibly difficult. There's so many moving variables.
[00:13:36] Mm-hmm. Um,
[00:13:37] **Robert:** we got events that we completely cannot [00:13:40] control. So these are like the stock market, the markets itself.
[00:13:44] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Taxes, policies, government. Um, then you have [00:13:50] expectation setting, um, language communication, um, both with the client and then with all the other teams that have to roll up to each other. It's incredibly [00:14:00] hard. Um, I've been asked many times in terms of like, well, building monograph can't be that difficult.
[00:14:06] **Robert:** And I was like, it is difficult. Uh, [00:14:10] we're trying to solve a very complex problem with a lot of different stakeholders, uh, and we really want to help architects, engineers get all the way to the finish line. Um, it [00:14:20] is incredibly difficult.
[00:14:21] **Aaron:** That's, yeah. It's a, it's a interesting thing because it's a, I think coming into the industry, you have this, this expectation [00:14:30] or, or maybe it's this dreamy view of, oh, projects are just like studio was whenever you were in college and it's, [00:14:40] I have three months start here, and then that's the end, and that's, that's where it goes.
[00:14:44] **Aaron:** But the reality is a lot messier. Um, even on, like Jen [00:14:50] said, even when things go really smoothly, um, our smoothest projects still are not a perfect timeline and, uh, especially when we're working in existing buildings almost exclusively. [00:15:00] You encounter all sorts of things that, um, I I will often say that I'm not, I'm not [00:15:10] surprised or I, I should say I'm surprised though.
[00:15:13] **Aaron:** I was, I I was expecting to be surprised in many ways. You know, you're, you're, you know, it's coming. You just don't necessarily know what it [00:15:20] is. Uh, you've done enough of it that to know that there will be something hiding somewhere, um, that will cause a, cause an issue or, or delay [00:15:30] a delay or as we often will say, we, we are encountering another opportunity to, uh,
[00:15:38] to
[00:15:38] **Aaron:** shine.
[00:15:39] **Aaron:** So, [00:15:40] um, there's lots of, lots of variables that cause, uh, that make it a, make it a very interesting, it's a very dynamic, it's a very dynamic industry in that way, I would say.
[00:15:49] **Robert:** [00:15:50] Um, it does make for a fantastic leader. And I think all three of you're incredible leaders 'cause you embrace the ambiguity, uh, that impacts our lives every single day.
[00:15:59] **Robert:** Like [00:16:00] that's just a fact of reality. Um, it is not school. We don't start school on the day after Labor Day, and we don't end the day before. Christmas. She's been a [00:16:10] long time. So I hope that's still the school schedule. Uh, uh, I wish, I wish life was so structured, but like, I think really strong leadership [00:16:20] exhibits, the ability to navigate ambiguity, um, has a really good consistency that helps, keeps things moving.
[00:16:27] **Robert:** Um, but enough agility [00:16:30] to kind of like manage things that come in and out of our lives, both working and professionally.
[00:16:34] Mm-hmm.
## [00:16:34] How do you structure your time?
[00:16:34] **Robert:** Now I'm like, I'm really curious, like, how do you, how do you structure your time, like on a regular, daily, [00:16:40] weekly, monthly, like from running the firm, running a project, running your lives?
[00:16:46] **Robert:** Um, I imagine there's also maybe a [00:16:50] little bit different in terms of like the ambiguity of your daily schedule.
[00:16:53] **Aaron:** Go for it, Jen.
[00:16:55] **Jennifer:** Yeah, a little bit. You know, I, I try, I think [00:17:00] I. One thing I've learned is that I just need to just go with it sometimes it, and, and not get too wound up when things don't go as planned.
[00:17:08] **Jennifer:** You know, I try and fill my [00:17:10] calendar with some of my to-do list as much as I possibly can, but, um, I've learned the older I get, the more I have to take care of myself first, because if I'm not, um, [00:17:20] healthy or even mentally clear, um, then no one, no, I can't convey my ideas. I can't have decent meetings. Um, [00:17:30] you know, it's, it makes everything harder.
[00:17:32] **Jennifer:** So I think, you know, from a business standpoint, we always, you know, try and take, I always try to take, you know, a [00:17:40] few hours a week and just focus on that entirely. But that always doesn't always, you know, it doesn't go as planned as well. So I don't know if you guys have any other,
[00:17:48] **Steve:** let's say, yeah, [00:17:50] I.
[00:17:51] **Steve:** Getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Being able to kinda live in a little bit of discomfort. We're not always gonna be able to do everything that we want because things come [00:18:00] up on a daily basis. You might have a task list, 10 items long and those are the things I'm gonna get done today.
[00:18:05] **Steve:** And you get one of them done and you get home and you're just, you know, [00:18:10] mentally exhausted from days after like that. But just recognizing that, you know, time's come and go and it is just doing your best to keep moving forward.
[00:18:19] **Jennifer:** Mm-hmm. [00:18:20] And then communicating that, you know, I think communicating that to your own team, to your consultants, to your owners.
[00:18:25] **Jennifer:** I was really hoping to get farther this week and I just didn't, and that's, you know, of [00:18:30] course it's easier to say and then it's Sunday and you realize you haven't communicated your delay. But, um, that's unfortunately part of life.
[00:18:38] **Aaron:** Yeah. I think, [00:18:40] and Jen's got to experience this with me. I've, I've, I am a systems person.
[00:18:43] **Aaron:** I like to try to try to establish, she laughs 'cause. I sit across from her most of the time and [00:18:50] she gets to bear the brunt of a lot of it. Um, but, uh, I, in my dream world, like you said, Robert, I would, everything would be scheduled an app and clean, [00:19:00] and clean and predictable. Uh, and I have tried to go there and been very frustrated and discouraged when it do, hasn't all been [00:19:10] super clean and clear.
[00:19:11] **Aaron:** And so I have similarly kind of backed off on some of that. Here's my expectation for my day schedule. A lot of, a lot of [00:19:20] things. I have kids as well that are involved in a lot of things and try, don't want to miss all of that stuff as well. So I've been tried, I've been trying [00:19:30] to anyways, um, prioritize certain things in, in the morning and other things in the afternoons when I know that my brain space may not be as, as [00:19:40] clear.
[00:19:40] **Aaron:** Um. I don't draw as much as I used to. Neither does Jen, but, uh, if I am, I know that I can, I can do a lot more of that in the afternoon. 'cause [00:19:50] I don't need quite as much mental clarity maybe to, um, to think with a pencil. So I, I will do a lot of that stuff in the afternoon that requires a little, I'm [00:20:00] not writing as much and things of that sort.
[00:20:01] **Aaron:** Um
[00:20:02] mm-hmm.
[00:20:02] **Aaron:** And, and like, like Steven said, some days are a little bit more frustrating than others when you get one, one thing checked off your list and five things [00:20:10] added to it. But it is, uh, it is, it is, uh, there's always another day, right? There's always another day.
[00:20:17] **Robert:** It, it,
[00:20:18] **Aaron:** until there's not, [00:20:20]
[00:20:21] **Robert:** it's, it is taken me a long time to practice this where I'm a little bit more like you Aaron.
[00:20:26] **Robert:** Like, I like things very, very structured. I like to know what I'm walking [00:20:30] into and I, I like to know what's expected. Um, and I've realized that that's probably never gonna happen. Um, and actually I find a lot of [00:20:40] joy in the process of trying to achieve it. Um, so like I get a lot of joy of just getting things done, being there for my team, being on this webinar, [00:20:50] doing good work.
[00:20:51] **Robert:** Um, so like if I don't make it all the way to the finish line, that's okay. 'cause that wasn't the inherent goal. Uh, the inherent goal is actually [00:21:00] to enjoy the process. Um, and a schedule just helps me keep a little bit of structure so I know where I need to be and what I need to accomplish. Um, [00:21:10] but the goal was never to like get it all done.
[00:21:12] **Robert:** The goal was just have fun doing it.
[00:21:14] Yeah, I agree.
[00:21:15] **Robert:** Absolutely. As I get older too, I tend to do all the hard things in the morning that is [00:21:20] absolutely different than when I was younger. Uh, procrastination sets in when I was younger. I did all the hard things at night. Um, I realize I am just sharper. [00:21:30] Um, and like my mental capacity solve really hard problems exist between six in the morning and noon.
[00:21:36] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. As soon as I have lunch, [00:21:40] uh, it's kind of like I'm still doing work, but my ability to solve really hard problems becomes extraordinarily difficult. Um, I, [00:21:50] I gotta lower the, let's say the severity of the complexity of that problem drastically, uh, immediately after launch.
[00:21:57] **Aaron:** Mm-hmm. That is true. That is true.
[00:21:59] **Aaron:** Yeah. I
[00:21:59] **Steve:** [00:22:00] agree with that. Hundred percent. I'm an morning person, about 12. I start to get a fatigue throughout the. Anything that is complex and needs a [00:22:10] lot of thought I do
[00:22:11] **Robert:** in the morning right when I get to work.
[00:22:12] Mm-hmm. I
[00:22:13] **Robert:** would love to spend more time in Spain because I'm sure they figured it out, which is why they Yes.
[00:22:17] **Robert:** And why there's such a long gap
[00:22:19] in [00:22:20] that.
[00:22:20] **Robert:** Um, I just don't Good point. We've figured it out here in the us
[00:22:24] **Aaron:** we've, uh, we've, uh, our founder, um, who's now retired, but our, our [00:22:30] founder Gary, when, when did he en, en enact the hours that we have? Jen? It's been decades. Oh. I've been here
[00:22:36] **Jennifer:** 19 years and it's been the same.
[00:22:37] **Jennifer:** So it's, yeah.
[00:22:39] **Aaron:** Yeah. Uh, we [00:22:40] have, we have, we, we do kind of normal hours seven 30 to five 30 Monday through Thursday, and then seven 30 to 1130 loosely on Friday. [00:22:50] And, um, coming from, I came from the trades. I was carpenter prior to this, coming from that world where you are done at five or [00:23:00] five 30 on Friday night and.
[00:23:02] **Aaron:** Basically the weekend is Saturday and then you're looking at Monday, all of a sudden on Sunday. Um, [00:23:10] that extra, that extra four hours, extra four or five hours on Friday, even though some of us mm-hmm. May bleed into the afternoon working. It's a little quieter at least because, [00:23:20] um, people like Steven aren't calling us on Friday afternoons because we're closed.
[00:23:24] **Steve:** Don't call you. I can still find you.
[00:23:28] **Aaron:** Uh, but that extra bit, [00:23:30] uh, has also offered I what I feel like a, a, a scheduled buffer because knowing that technically we're, our office is [00:23:40] closed, even if I have extra work to do, um, I feel a little bit more brain space in that afternoon because the exp expect, I don't know if it's, the expectation is a little bit lower for me on that day, but [00:23:50] I can think about, I have a little bit more time, um, in the, in that afternoon.
[00:23:54] **Aaron:** So the hours has been, is a, is a good thing.
[00:23:57] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:58] **Robert:** I'm curious, when you're, [00:24:00] when you're all working on a project together, um, is it, is it a regular practice meet weekly or, or is it every other week? Or does [00:24:10] it matter? Does it, does it get determined based on like the timing of the project? So if it's in, let's say sd, uh, maybe not so frequent by the time we get to DD and [00:24:20] CDs, maybe more frequent, um, and then very regularly together on during ca phases, like, I'm curious, like how do you think about that [00:24:30] cadence structure specifically around working and collaborating on a project?
[00:24:34] **Robert:** I.
[00:24:34] **Steve:** I would say from our team's collaboration, um, and everybody on this call, typically [00:24:40] those meetings tend to, we, we tend to have more meetings as the project progresses. A lot of times early on we'll have a kickoff meeting and just discuss the project as a whole. [00:24:50] And then once all the team members get on board, we start to kind of evaluate and make, making sure that we're coordinating different components.
[00:24:57] **Steve:** Mechanical rooms are sized properly, [00:25:00] and there becomes a lot more coordination as you move forward within the design process. So I think the cadence obviously picks up as you move through that design process and the meeting [00:25:10] timeframe, or we have more frequent meetings throughout that process as well.
[00:25:13] **Steve:** So, absolutely. And you as a, a, you were an architect for 10 years, so I'm sure you're very [00:25:20] familiar with how that process works.
[00:25:22] **Robert:** Yeah, I am very, very familiar. It's, it is a lot of reasons why I started monograph six years ago. It was one like making sure that those [00:25:30] meetings actually occur. Um, and not only that, like this will be an interesting topic, that one of the big reasons why I started monograph was I felt like 99% of [00:25:40] the conversations, 99.9% of the conversations I would have while executing on, on work, uh, was about delivery of the work.
[00:25:49] **Robert:** So it was about like [00:25:50] drawings that we had to do, details we had to solve, uh, design systems that we had to like align on and almost never around, let's say the [00:26:00] financials, the scope and, and timelines of the, of the project. Um, and then unfortunately I was a lot younger, so like I had managers and principles.
[00:26:08] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um, I [00:26:10] would always get yelled at when we're behind, I'll say, Hey, like. It was never my intention to be behind schedule, either on budget or on time. I just don't have enough visibility [00:26:20] into that so I can, I can manage appropriately. Um, and that, that sparked the idea of Mar Graph six years ago was like, Hey, like we should really focus on, on time and [00:26:30] money.
[00:26:30] **Robert:** Um, 'cause this is an area that most architects we get to talk about when it comes to, uh, project delivery. Mm-hmm. Only 'cause we're all so [00:26:40] passionate about design and so passionate about the architecture, that that's where 90% of our energy goes. Mm-hmm. Um, I just wanna make sure that we're, [00:26:50] we do, we are a services industry and like time and money does matter.
[00:26:54] **Robert:** Um, and misalignments, there actually is a very bad thing. Mm-hmm. Because it actually has a [00:27:00] massive amount of impacts across the entire firm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:01] **Jennifer:** And I think even, you know, we were talking internally in our office yesterday, it. Having staff or giving staff [00:27:10] that ability to see where they are, um, in that process financially, I think is so critical.
[00:27:16] **Jennifer:** It's been really great. Um, [00:27:20] and I, you know, it helps them, I think, identify the time that they have left, what are they gonna focus on, what, you know. Um, and the same too, a little bit [00:27:30] with, I think our consultants, we don't see their day to day, but, um, the overall process of it, I think makes it's, it's [00:27:40] visually appealing and easy to understand.
[00:27:43] **Aaron:** Yeah. The, uh, the, as you mentioned, Robert, we could, we are 90%, 90, we'd like to spend [00:27:50] 90% of our time on, on the design side of things. Although at this point that would be amazing. I feel like some, some weeks it'd be great to spend that much time in design, but, um. [00:28:00] I actually really enjoy the business side of things as well.
[00:28:02] **Aaron:** But, um, we, we have, we work with CVG, um, TR Venture Group as, as we mentioned [00:28:10] earlier, but the, the reason working with them kind of made apparent and what we, what so many small business owners know that oftentimes you [00:28:20] become a business owner, not because you are great at business or you were trained in business, but because you love the thing that you do, which
[00:28:26] mm-hmm.
[00:28:26] **Aaron:** Doesn't equal you. Were good at [00:28:30] making that a successful business. It just means that you may have been skilled at what you did, um, and, uh, and oftentimes not always, that [00:28:40] may mean that you're actually pretty bad at business and you, you've spent all of your time being good at what you did and didn't understand the numbers side of it, and didn't understand the time side of it and all of that.[00:28:50]
[00:28:50] **Aaron:** Um, so it's been working with them. And then also, yeah, the, the struggle is often keeping, keeping tabs on. Awareness is a big, big part of it, right? You know how, [00:29:00] and again, in my past life as a carpenter, one of the things that, uh, that we always did was, uh, was everybody on the crew knew how, what the, [00:29:10] what the number was.
[00:29:10] **Aaron:** This is how many hours we have, this is how many, so this is the expectation we're gonna hit that, that, because if you don't know, you spend an [00:29:20] extra 30 minutes working on this spot, an extra 30 minutes working over there, and pretty soon you're 50 hours over on something that was only a 50 hour project to begin with.[00:29:30]
[00:29:30] **Aaron:** Um, and it's the same thing only I think with the scale of projects that we, that we work on, it can, you know, if we have, you know, 5,000 hours in a project over three years, [00:29:40] two years, if we're off incrementally every time, wasting time here or there, and without any awareness, you can bleed away a lot of hours working on details that [00:29:50] nobody's gonna care about.
[00:29:51] **Aaron:** That don't really affect the overall approach to the project. They may be important to us and we wanna make sure that they're there, but it's easy to lose [00:30:00] track. Um, it's like budgeting just only just on hours. Don't nickel and dime yourself away. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:07] **Chris:** So speaking about systems, speaking about like [00:30:10] all these variables at play, what kinds of tools are both of your firms using?
[00:30:16] **Chris:** Uh, so you've got tools as software, [00:30:20] but you've also got mental models, systems. Um, we'd love to hear about, um, how you think about those two things in at play.
[00:30:28] **Aaron:** Go ahead, Steven. You can [00:30:30] start.
[00:30:30] **Steve:** So the tools that we, I mean, we use Del Tech in our office, so that's kind of what produces all the analytics that we track for, for KIPP standpoint, anything from on [00:30:40] the business side really is tracked through Del Tech, um, from project management through business, you know, finances, things of that nature.
[00:30:49] **Steve:** [00:30:50] I would say, um, as a part of that, obviously tools on a day-to-day basis from a collaboration standpoint, everybody's in today's society, I think is using Revit. So [00:31:00] from collaboration with, you know, individuals like Studio GWA or whatever that may be, it really helps and enhances the ability to collaborate on projects.[00:31:10]
[00:31:10] **Steve:** Um, Aaron, if you wanna add to that and identify the tools that you guys are using. Yeah,
[00:31:16] **Aaron:** yeah. We use, we use Revit as well, and on, on a team [00:31:20] collaboration basis. We, we do work on central. Central models so we can see their work, they can see our work. Um, anybody in the midst of all that knows that it's [00:31:30] not just as live as they make it, say make it sound, but it's a, it's as, as I would say, a lot better than it could be.
[00:31:37] **Aaron:** Um, and we use a lot of other tools [00:31:40] outside of that on the architecture side of things, but um, wise, um, we use monograph on the project management, firm management side of things, um, which has been really good. [00:31:50] Um, and being one thing that I think has benefited us Though we were working remotely with people before I.
[00:31:57] **Aaron:** Um, in 2020 when the world changed, [00:32:00] um, we were already in the process of moving everything completely cloud-based. We have some staff that are, that are remote, um, a couple of staff that are fully remote, and then a lot of staff [00:32:10] that are kind of in and out. Um, I work in two different offices depending on time of time of week and, and, um, whatnot.
[00:32:17] **Aaron:** And so we had already started some of those [00:32:20] virtual meetings. We all, we all have experienced that a lot, but, uh, our weekly meetings went from, uh, or I should say we, we may not have had weekly coordination meetings [00:32:30] with engineers before then. We may have had touch bases here and there, but with the, we use Microsoft Teams and Microsoft environment, um, for a lot of things.
[00:32:37] **Aaron:** And so we will, [00:32:40] especially. Between offices. Um, we'll have recurring, recurring calls on projects that then if there's nothing, it's just canceled. But, [00:32:50] um, we have that kind of standing meeting on a, on, on different projects where we're communicating in that way. So a lot of collaboration that way. We used Slack in the past.
[00:32:58] **Aaron:** Nothing against Slack at [00:33:00] all, just integration wise. Um, and, uh, so we are mainly those, those things we are mainly monograph and then the Autodesk side or on [00:33:10] Autodesk on the production side of things. And, um, then Microsoft Office World for, um, for the rest of it.
[00:33:17] **Steve:** I forgot about Microsoft. I remember when we used to [00:33:20] cra or sit in a conference room every Monday and we would have our weekly, weekly meetings.
[00:33:24] **Steve:** Everybody would sit around the table. Now, all of our meetings internally have really moved [00:33:30] towards a virtual setting. Obviously, I, I'm an individual who really likes that face-to-face interaction, be able to see individuals body language and talk to them, you know, shake their [00:33:40] hand. That's just the person that I am.
[00:33:42] **Steve:** But I, I think with today's digital society, it's just, you know, the convenience. You're not, you don't have to drive to every single construction meeting anymore. [00:33:50] You can have some meetings can be taken place virtually, and you can get the same information out of them. And it really enhances our ability to be more efficient with the job that we're doing and the [00:34:00] tasks that we're trying to accomplish.
## [00:34:02] How will the Architect-Engineer relationship change?
[00:34:02] **Robert:** Where do you think the relationship between architects and engineers and how we work together is gonna change? Um, in the coming, in the [00:34:10] coming years? 'cause like I know, um, monograph here, we're moving in a direction where we're trying to bring that collaboration a little bit more tighter. Um, Revit's been trying to do [00:34:20] that for a few decades now, and I think there's a few other design design tools out there that are trying to accomplish that.
[00:34:26] **Robert:** Um, I'm really interested to get everyone's take here in [00:34:30] terms of like, what, what does that collaboration, collaboration starts to look like when you start to think about the, the client to the architect, architect to [00:34:40] engineers, engineers to the rest of engineers, to the general contractor, to your procurement and vendors, to your subcontractors.
[00:34:47] **Robert:** Like there's actually quite a lot of stakeholders [00:34:50] involved. Uh, when we think about a project from, from start to finish.
[00:34:54] **Steve:** I personally think the tools that monograph has to offer, whether it relates to scheduling and [00:35:00] setting that up, and I don't know, I guess we don't have monograph in our office, but if it could kind of track time on both ends, so you could see holistic project fees.
[00:35:09] **Steve:** Um, [00:35:10] being able to track finances almost together or working as a team to accomplish that really would help. It makes it more of a cohesive team as one. So you're working [00:35:20] towards the same goal. Obviously there's a delineation of fee there because you're two different entities, but from an internal standpoint where we have architects, we're able to do that on our side and [00:35:30] we're able to track and see kind of where we're at on overall project from a completion standpoint where they're at on the design side, and it would allow everybody to kind of [00:35:40] understand the next steps moving forward.
[00:35:42] **Robert:** David, you, you sneaking into a product roadmap like what's going on?[00:35:50]
[00:35:50] **Robert:** Um, I, I am curious like what other challenges you might see ahead, um, that like, it's just things are just gonna get a little bit more complex. Um, I [00:36:00] imagine with, with collaboration, um, it's more and more a distributed world. Both of you have mentioned that teams are now distributed, uh, either partially or [00:36:10] fully.
[00:36:10] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um, meetings are becoming more and more digital versus in person. Um, and there's, there's gonna be a whole bunch of new tools that are gonna [00:36:20] change the way we work. Um, Jen and Erin love, love to hear what, what, what's top of mind for both of you?
[00:36:27] **Aaron:** I think the, one of the things that I've been thinking about [00:36:30] and we, we've talked a bit about internally and actually with other firms is that, um, I.
[00:36:35] **Aaron:** I, I am, am thankful for and appreciate the flexibility that we are [00:36:40] offered now with technology. And like, like Steven said, it doesn't, we work, we work mainly around the Midwest, but we have projects around the country, um, as far [00:36:50] away as Atlanta and Philadelphia and other elsewhere. But, um, and those projects would be a lot more difficult if we did not have the tools that we have now.
[00:36:59] **Aaron:** [00:37:00] And I could see them getting even easier with, um, additional tools. We scan, uh, we have a, we, we do 3D scans of all of our building. Uh, every project that we work on, we do 3D [00:37:10] scan. Um, so that's one of those things in the last say eight years that has improved our ability and I imagine it's gonna get even better.
[00:37:17] **Aaron:** We we're on our what, fourth iteration of [00:37:20] scanners at this point as well, and they've just gotten more and more. Um, accurate, more and more, um, efficient every time. But I think one of the [00:37:30] challenges, I am a, I'm a face-to-face person as, as Steven is, um, and, uh, there is some, one of the challenges that I, that I see and that we encounter even in our [00:37:40] office is the knowledge transfer that occurs on the incidentals and the incidental time that you, that you spend with, with your coworkers and whether it's a project you're [00:37:50] working on or not, if you are not present and in, in this physical space together, um, you don't necessarily get the benefit of learning [00:38:00] from learning from a, a struggle that somebody else is having, or, this is something I've been curious about, but I don't, it's not on my project and I, but I heard you guys [00:38:10] talking about it and, and, and, and that, so I having kind of come up in the industry in an, in a very.[00:38:20]
[00:38:20] **Aaron:** Collaborative environment where you are constantly talking with the people around you, um, and hearing overhearing conversations and and [00:38:30] whatnot. I learned a lot in those, in those sys in that environment. And, um, that's one of the, I think, challenges is replace replacing [00:38:40] of, I, and I know that there are systems and, and other things coming into play.
[00:38:44] **Aaron:** Jen sent, uh, sent an example to me last night that I'm gonna look at, but, uh, uh, [00:38:50] ways to train staff on things that we may have learned from observing the person right next to us. If there's not a person right next to you, what are, where are you getting that knowledge and how [00:39:00] are you learning it? So that's one of the challenges in my opinion, is knowledge transfer.
[00:39:04] **Aaron:** And, uh, because knowledge transfer is not always a, I think a lot of the knowledge transfer is not scheduled. It's not a thing [00:39:10] that I, I sat down to we're, we're having a meeting and now I'm learning something. It is, it was incidental, accidental. Almost [00:39:20] via osmosis.
[00:39:23] **Jennifer:** Oh yeah. I think that's, that's really true.
[00:39:25] **Jennifer:** It's something that we don't think about. It's unscheduled time. Um, and before you know it, then [00:39:30] we're questioning, well, why, why isn't this, why isn't the team understanding? Uh, you know, this, the, the challenge of this particular detail or, um, construction. [00:39:40] And I think the other thing too that's changing as much, I mean for, for both industries, um, ourselves and consultants is, is construction.
[00:39:49] **Jennifer:** [00:39:50] And we're seeing what technology is is and how it can help with construction. And um, I think back to one of our projects [00:40:00] that I believe Aaron, the Woodstock project, it Yep. You know, it was scanned every night, correct me if I'm wrong, but the contractor used a, a [00:40:10] scanner so that it was really photographing progress, I think consistently, um, to some degree and.
[00:40:17] **Jennifer:** That helps us when we're not, [00:40:20] uh, you know, in person all the time to better understand things that are, that have, you know, been modified or changed. And, um, yeah. And then going back to your original [00:40:30] question of, you know, how, how are we gonna work together differently? I don't know. I didn't see AI coming, I didn't see a lot of this stuff coming.
[00:40:36] **Jennifer:** So I am, I, I feel like I am, I'm gonna, [00:40:40] I'm gonna be hopefully surprised. In a good way,
[00:40:43] **Robert:** Jen. You should visit me in San Francisco and take a ride in a Waymo. It, it is, yeah. [00:40:50] It is kind of outta world. Like I know Waymo's don't exist in every city, so like, um, but here it's, it outnumbers Ubers and taxis mm-hmm.[00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Which is totally
[00:41:01] **Robert:** just a bunch of cars everywhere, just driving around there. No drivers. Like, it's the first time seeing it. You kind of have to get used to the thought that, hey, like there's no one [00:41:10] in that driver's seat. And then over time it's like, oh, like this is. Oh my God, this is where we're going.
[00:41:15] **Jennifer:** Yeah, it's fascinating.
## [00:41:17] What's a project that tested your collaboration?
[00:41:17] **Chris:** Speaking of that knowledge transfer, is there [00:41:20] an example of a project that brought out an obstacle? There was a test, and uh, somehow you got through it.
[00:41:27] **Aaron:** I'm curious, Steven, what do you think? [00:41:30] What is he gonna say? We have,
[00:41:33] **Steve:** we've challenged Steven a lot, which I, I think was about a year ago actually, there was a structured project that was pretty [00:41:40] difficult as well.
[00:41:40] **Steve:** Um, but one year ago, the project that comes to mind is, and it was predominantly driven just by changes that were happening. We were working through design [00:41:50] and as everybody knows, design isn't always smooth, a smooth process. But, uh, I think we probably went through five iterations on a different project and we just kept going back and [00:42:00] forth.
[00:42:00] **Steve:** It was a, um, restaurant actually, and the client didn't really understand what they wanted to do, so they constantly changed things and that became [00:42:10] a struggle, as we talked about earlier, with just with professional fees, things of that nature. They're always trying to manage that time. Obviously the, we're a service industry, so we need to do what's right.
[00:42:19] **Steve:** We need to [00:42:20] make sure that we're giving that client what they deserve in providing value added service, but. I think that was probably one of the more challenging projects. Aaron? I don't, I think Jen, were you on [00:42:30] that one or was Aaron?
[00:42:30] **Jennifer:** Nope. No, this just Aaron.
[00:42:32] **Steve:** It was just Aaron. Okay.
[00:42:34] **Aaron:** Uh, yeah, it's a, it is a, I think that the, the thing that [00:42:40] has been a recurring theme throughout,
[00:42:41] **Aaron:** oh, lost you better. How about, how about, how about team in my, uh, in, in my career [00:42:50] is communication, communicate, uh, clearly and often. And I think it's especially important between consultants because, uh, we may be the main contact point with [00:43:00] the client, um, because we hold our consultants contracts and, um, and if we don't, just like, if something [00:43:10] changes on our side, we're doing an additional service.
[00:43:11] **Aaron:** If we don't communicate that to the client quickly and, and ahead of time, I would say I. It gets, it makes that conversation that much more [00:43:20] difficult. And if we are too quick to say something like Jen said, uh, we're not the only ones in the world that, uh, are the only ones on this project. If we communicate too quickly, um, without [00:43:30] communicating first with Steven on, oh, hey, this is revision number five now, and funny story, we're ending up.
[00:43:36] **Aaron:** We get exactly where we started with one. Uh, but, uh, [00:43:40] but, um, no, nobody could have predicted that happening. Um, but the, uh, the, if we, if we don't communicate [00:43:50] with each other re or regularly on that, this is where we're at, it's occurred recently too on some structural stuff. Like, Hey, this is where we're at.
[00:43:58] **Aaron:** This is how we got here, [00:44:00] this is the result. Uh, it's a lot easier to communicate that with a client as well. So I would say that it's. Steven, not all of our consultants are as, as easy to pick up the phone and, [00:44:10] and give a call to, um, most of, most of 'em are pretty good. We work with some good people. Um, but that I think is the, the thing that is, is most prevalent on [00:44:20] my mind is communicate, uh, quickly and often.
[00:44:24] **Aaron:** Um, even if it's uncertain, we think we're gonna go this way. How would that would affect you? How would that [00:44:30] affect you? What do you, what would that be cost, service wise? How quickly, because of course, the first questions from the client are how, what, how much is it gonna cost and what's it gonna take? How much time is it gonna take?[00:44:40]
[00:44:40] **Aaron:** And they would like it to be free. And now, and, uh, not all of 'em, but that's often the, you know, we, we even assume that that's what they're thinking. Um, though a lot of clients are a [00:44:50] little bit more understanding than that. So communication being the biggest one.
[00:44:54] **Aaron:** Yeah. Jen, you were gonna say something? What was your, I wanna hear you.
[00:44:58] **Jennifer:** No, I, I [00:45:00] think, uh. Steve, the other issue, it's not between us, it's, it's always the, the unknowns. Like when municipalities throw a curve ball at you, I [00:45:10] mean, you, you just can't predict it all. And I think that's just why it's important to have somebody that, um, can again, go with the flow and isn't [00:45:20] realizes that we're all in the same boat.
[00:45:21] **Jennifer:** None of we, we didn't predict this. You didn't predict this. And, um, you know, the hurdle is it's mutual. You [00:45:30] know,
[00:45:30] **Aaron:** not on a project that we've worked on together, um, with, with Angus Young. But another, another project has been, uh, is top of mind for me in that
[00:45:39] [00:45:40] most
[00:45:40] **Aaron:** of our projects are pretty good at the whole team, design team. All of our consultants and the contractor, we, we, we. Tend to have very good relationships with [00:45:50] the contractors that are working on the projects.
[00:45:51] **Aaron:** And, um, always try to set it up with, Hey, we're all shooting towards the same thing. We all want to get to the same end goal. [00:46:00] There's gonna be times when you need to help me and there's gonna be times when you need my help. Mm-hmm. So let's not shoot each other mm-hmm. Uh, through the construction process.
[00:46:08] **Aaron:** Um, and, [00:46:10] uh, that never is more, more apparent than when, when that situation doesn't exist, when it's a little bit more combative and it's a, it [00:46:20] becomes a us versus them situation. Um, and we've got, um, yeah, so relationships going all the way back to the beginning of this funny, how people meet and, and [00:46:30] things I relationship is, is a very important part of all of this.
[00:46:33] **Aaron:** 'cause in the end I want to be able to see people on the street and not feel like I need to cross to the other side [00:46:40] to walk.
## [00:46:40] What’s a surprise that helped you collaborate better?
[00:46:40] **Robert:** Oh gosh, Erin, I hope, I, I hope I never feel that way. 'cause that, um, that's a horrible way of like, getting work done and just kind of like living life, like relationships. You're [00:46:50] absolutely right.
[00:46:50] **Robert:** They matter so much, um, that trust that we can work together and accomplish the same, a same goal, same vision, um, and build [00:47:00] some incredible buildings that will last way beyond our lifetime is like an incredible thing to be a part of. Mm-hmm. Um, and communication is so important to [00:47:10] making sure that that relationship stays healthy.
[00:47:12] **Robert:** Communication is so important to making sure that that trust stays very, very high. Um, and that's, that's such a [00:47:20] key essential. Um, I'm, I'm now really, really curious, like, what's the most, let's say, unexpected thing, uh, that you've, you've seen in, in [00:47:30] past projects that have helped you collaborate better. Um, that isn't, so let's say I.
[00:47:35] **Robert:** Obvious, like a relationship matters, communication [00:47:40] matters, um, trust matters. But like, what's, what's something that's been unexpected?
[00:47:45] **Jennifer:** That's a good one.
[00:47:46] **Steve:** I say that's a good question. [00:47:50] Um, silence.
[00:47:50] **Robert:** It's a harder question. I, that is a harder one. Um, well, I, maybe I'll go first in terms of like my own journey. Hmm. Um, I didn't think it [00:48:00] was gonna take me this long.
[00:48:01] Hmm.
[00:48:01] **Robert:** Like, I, you know, there's a lot of things that I feel like are very obvious and should be obvious in terms of like why they're important.
[00:48:08] **Robert:** Um, but sometimes reflecting [00:48:10] back and, and maybe, maybe I'm going through a stage I did, you know, I did just turn 40. Uh, so now I'm like trying to remember my twenties and my thirties. Like, oh, like, you know, it's [00:48:20] taking me a lot longer than I expected. Um. I, I wish it didn't for me. Um, I wish I learned it faster.
[00:48:27] **Robert:** I wish I had a mentor and I wish I, [00:48:30] and which is also another obvious thing, like I think a lot of designers, engineers and professionals should have coaches and mentorships and like someone they can lean on. And I didn't, I [00:48:40] didn't personally take advantage of that. Um, throughout my career. I kind of was, I was stubborn.
[00:48:46] **Robert:** I thought I can figure it out on my own and [00:48:50] maybe Chris can attest, I'm still kind of stubborn. Uh, try not to be
[00:48:59] **Aaron:** one [00:49:00] of the things that comes to mind, uh, while, while others, others think. Um, and what I've, what I didn't anticipate when I was, um, starting out, [00:49:10] um, I mentioned I kinda came out of the trades. Um, I, one did not anticipate how useful that would be. Um, and I think it's one [00:49:20] of the things that has made me, I.
[00:49:21] **Aaron:** Passable at my job. Um, and, uh, and the, the other is how much that has [00:49:30] helped that, that common ground helps with connections on projects, um, with contractors that we're working with, people that we have to work with [00:49:40] and have to get along with. Um, and then also, uh, I happen to have, having been on the building side of things and architecture side of things, um, one of the things that I [00:49:50] wish, uh, wish upon every, every designer, including engineer Steven, I haven't told you this part, but is to take a set of your own plans and, and with a, with a team, [00:50:00] actually build it and then discover all of the holes that exist in what you, in your, because our, they're tools of communication and not everybody can [00:50:10] read our minds.
[00:50:10] **Aaron:** And some of my more humbling experiences have been on site as. I, the one who drew everything up and also [00:50:20] was the one who was supposed to be leading construction and discovering that I don't really know what I was thinking in this one spot, or, you know, I didn't communicate this clearly and I can't remember [00:50:30] the thought process back then.
[00:50:31] **Aaron:** So, um, and, and that was an unexpected thing. Again, coming from the construction side, I assumed, oh, I'm just gonna remember all of that [00:50:40] stuff when I am in the design world exclusively. And it's a good humbling experience every once in a while to try to build something new. Drew.
[00:50:48] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:48] **Jennifer:** I'm always surprised by how [00:50:50] many people don't wanna pay us or pay us so late, and I don't know what to do about that. What's the learning experience from that? I'm not, yeah,[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] **Jennifer:** they don't, they don't teach that one in school.
[00:51:03] Yeah,
[00:51:04] **Steve:** that's true.
[00:51:05] **Steve:** I guess going back to the collaboration side of things and just thinking [00:51:10] you came from, Aaron came from kind of a different background of starting from the construction side and then working into the design side. I think it's using those past experiences too, [00:51:20] and kind of the knowledge base that you can build from one projects and transposing that to another project.
[00:51:25] **Steve:** So whether that is stepping back and looking at a plan set and just kind of trying to think [00:51:30] through that as a team or. Gaining that knowledge from a different project and finding applicability with what you're doing today. 'cause not every, I mean, projects are not the same period. [00:51:40] Um, but you can use little nuances from each project and make that process a lot more streamlined.
[00:51:45] **Steve:** You can make the communication more streamlined through that as well. Like, this is what we've [00:51:50] encountered in the past. And just maybe going back to that mentorship thing as, or mentorship topic as well, is just being able to, you know, communicate what you've been through to help the next [00:52:00] generation continue to grow.
## [00:52:01] How should Architects & Engineers work together?
[00:52:01] **Chris:** The main topic of this series. How should architects and engineers be working together?
[00:52:06] **Aaron:** How should we be working together, Steven?
[00:52:09] **Steve:** Um, I think [00:52:10] AI is gonna change how we work together, to be honest with you. Uh, I know we haven't really focused a lot on AI through these conversations, but a lot of, and I don't think it's gonna necessarily be [00:52:20] through communication aspect, because I think that's one thing that AI is not gonna be able to do.
[00:52:24] **Steve:** But from a tracking, from a metrics perspective, from, you know, identifying [00:52:30] where others are at, I think softwares will be generated to enhance that. Just transparency, I'll call it. Um, I know it sounds like monograph is gonna be [00:52:40] doing a lot of great things, so I'm sure they will find a way to enhance that communication and that effort.
[00:52:46] **Steve:** But I, I think AI is gonna really bring our field into a different [00:52:50] world that we are, we don't even understand as of now.
[00:52:53] **Jennifer:** And hopefully allow us to, I guess, be better stewards and communicate better with our clients. You know, [00:53:00] that's a little bit of my hope is getting in front of them on that education piece of it.
[00:53:05] **Jennifer:** Um, I feel, especially in the work that we do adaptive for use, people come to us, they bought a building, now what? [00:53:10] And we have to take a step back and say, okay, before you start, we need to, we kinda have to lay the groundwork on what it is that we do and how we work together and even bring in our consultants [00:53:20] sooner rather, rather than later.
[00:53:21] **Jennifer:** And talk through the different options that we have and the challenges that we are gonna see. Um, again, just [00:53:30] making sure that it's everything's. Wide open and, um, everybody's going in it, you know, with eyes wide open, basically.
[00:53:37] **Aaron:** Yeah. Early collaboration I think is, [00:53:40] is a, is an, I'm, I'm a bit jealous of Steven having the architecture and engineering all in one. That, that conversation is, I, you know, we see it on our, in our office on the, [00:53:50] on the urban planning to architecture side. There's a lot of benefit to having the, the different approaches, mental, mental, um, approaches to it.
[00:53:57] **Aaron:** And everybody sees things from a different [00:54:00] perspective. And I think that is a beneficial thing long term. And to his point about ai, I, I agree that that is, without us communicating, um, [00:54:10] maybe directly everything, the ability to be made, aware of progress made, aware of changes would be, is where I see some [00:54:20] change.
[00:54:20] **Steve:** I'll just come down and work outta your space, Aaron. Don't worry.
[00:54:22] **Aaron:** There we go. There we go. We'll find a desk for you.
[00:54:25] **Michael:** The biggest takeaway here is that successful architect-engineer collaboration comes down to [00:54:30] Aaron's simple rule: "communicate clearly and often," especially when scope changes. Most project disasters happen because someone didn't pick up the phone fast enough when things [00:54:40] shifted, leaving consultants working off old information while budgets spiral out of control. When your MEP team can see live project timelines and get [00:54:50] automatically notified when schedules change, you avoid those expensive coordination breakdowns that kill project profitability. Monograph makes this kind of real-time collaboration [00:55:00] automatic by giving consultants shared visibility into project milestones and deadlines, so everyone stays aligned when the inevitable scope changes happen. If this [00:55:10] episode helped you think differently about collaboration, share it with your team—they'll thank you for it.
[00:55:14] **Chris:** Thanks again, Jennifer, Steven, Aaron, and Robert. We had a lot of fun. Alright, [00:55:20] thank you.
[00:55:20] **Chris:** Thanks.
[00:00:05] **Michael:** And yet most people become business owners because they love what they do, not because they're [00:00:10] good at business.
[00:00:11] **Michael:** So in this episode, you will learn how two firms who work together think about effective project collaboration and business strategy.
[00:00:17] **Michael:** Meet Studio GWA and Angus Young.
[00:00:19] **Michael:** Studio [00:00:20] GWA is an architecture and planning firm based in Rockford, Illinois, led by Principals Jennifer Spencer and Aaron Holverson.
[00:00:26] **Michael:** They are Monograph customers, and they invited one of their favorite [00:00:30] project collaborators to talk about how they work together.
[00:00:32] **Michael:** Angus Young is a 60-year-old integrated architecture and engineering practice led by a team of principals, including Principal Engineer Steven [00:00:40] Genin.
[00:00:40] **Michael:** Make sure to listen to the end to hear what they think AI means for the future of architecture and engineering collaboration.
[00:00:46] **Michael:** Let's get into it.
[00:00:47] **Chris:** How'd y'all start working together?
[00:00:48] **Jennifer:** Well,
## [00:00:49] How did you start working together?
[00:00:49] **Jennifer:** I'll jump in [00:00:50] because I think our first project with Steven was actually a collaboration through another owner. Um, we met, I, I think it was a, a job meeting, um, just, uh, a few [00:01:00] blocks from our office here, a few blocks from his new Rockford office. We are located in the Midwest. Um, and that, I think that was our first introduction to each other.
[00:01:09] **Jennifer:** [00:01:10] But then it wasn't long before I think, uh, Steven showed up with, I don't know, maybe a 12 pack of beer and a couple bottles of wine to the office on a Thursday. [00:01:20] And I think we've been, um, great friends and collaborators since. So, did I miss anything, Steven?
[00:01:29] **Jennifer:** You [00:01:30] forgot about that, didn't you? I
[00:01:32] **Steve:** might not have, gotta have fun in the architecture engineering world, so,
[00:01:38] **Jennifer:** but it worked, you know?
[00:01:39] **Aaron:** After that, [00:01:40] I don't know what, how, how that project continued. I don't remember which project that was even at this point, but we've now, we've, we've worked together on, uh, working on a couple of projects together right now, and we've, it's, [00:01:50] it's kind of been a constant flow. they're, uh, good to work with, easy to, uh, easy to connect with.
[00:01:55] **Aaron:** They're down the street or, uh, or up the road depending on which office and yeah, it's been [00:02:00] good.
[00:02:00] **Steve:** Yeah, I would say from any, yeah, from the architectural side, now we get to work with them as they develop their new building over in mm-hmm. Monroe area. So that's exciting.
[00:02:09] **Robert:** [00:02:10] It's so amazing to hear sometimes how relationships form.
[00:02:13] **Michael:** That's Robert Yuen - Architect turned CEO and Co-Founder of Monograph. 6 years ago, Robert created Monograph to make [00:02:20] business easier for Architects & Engineers so they can focus on what they love and do best.
[00:02:24] **Robert:** Jumped in a little bit earlier and like reminded that we met Jennifer and Erin two mm-hmm.
[00:02:29] Ago
[00:02:29] **Robert:** [00:02:30] at the a i, a national conference in San Francisco when, um, I was on my way to a ping pong event hosted by CBG. Um, it's, it's [00:02:40] incredibly, it's. Powerful. Sometimes when I reflect back on life and how small little events across our lives can empower, uh, an ongoing relationship, which is [00:02:50] really, really amazing.
[00:02:51] **Robert:** Yeah. And I'm really sad. Didn't make it to that ping pong event. Mm-hmm. We were leaving, but I hope you two had a ton of fun. I completely missed it.
[00:02:59] **Aaron:** It [00:03:00] was a good time. That was a good time.
## [00:03:02] What projects do you focus on?
[00:03:02] **Robert:** I would love to know, like, what kind of projects do you, do your firms focus on? Like, is it, you know, the, is there a range between residential [00:03:10] work, commercial work, um, civic work?
[00:03:13] **Robert:** Like, love to give everyone here a little bit more context. So what type of projects both of your firms work on?
[00:03:19] **Aaron:** Go [00:03:20] ahead, Eric, jump in there. Go ahead Eric. Uh, our, our, uh, our firm studio GWA, we mostly, but not exclusively, we're mostly in the adaptive reuse, um, especially historic [00:03:30] tax credit project. World.
[00:03:32] **Aaron:** Um, not all of our projects fall under that category, but a lot of 'em are either that or adjacent. Um, so a lot of old buildings, a lot [00:03:40] of, uh, a lot of different uses as a result. So we're not necessarily in the, the occupancy type is varied, um, pretty dramatically. Um, [00:03:50] we don't, one thing we don't really do a lot of is single family residential.
[00:03:53] **Aaron:** We are mostly in the multi-family commercial. We do a lot of restaurants and things of that sort. People [00:04:00] love the, the, the adaptive reuse spaces for gathering spaces. So we've, uh, we've done a little bit of civic work as well. Um, had an, we have a [00:04:10] number of, of civic clients and municipalities that we work with because we also have an arm on the urban planning.
[00:04:16] **Aaron:** We have an urban planning group as well. Um, [00:04:20] and so we sometimes there's a little bit of crossover between the architecture and urban design, urban planning, um, for some projects in that way, which is really nice. Um, but. [00:04:30] Yeah, so mostly adaptive reuse, mostly commercial, um, in some form,
[00:04:35] **Steve:** but, and we differ slightly within our project styles.
[00:04:38] **Steve:** I think that's what's [00:04:40] made this such a, or a big proponent of what's been so successful between this relationship is the adaptive reuse and kind of the understanding that they have with those type of buildings. [00:04:50] Um, from Angus Young side, we're more general practice, so anything from commercial and industrial, we will do high-rise residential R two for different applications, but a [00:05:00] majority of it, anything from, you know, industrial processing beef plant facilities to commercial spaces to government facilities, city halls, things of that nature.
[00:05:09] **Steve:** [00:05:10] So we will, and a lot of times that's, um, I would say dependent based on the market and where we're looking. We will travel pretty much anywhere for industrial work. [00:05:20] And then for kind of more of the commercial work, we're more local, Midwest.
[00:05:24] **Jennifer:** You guys are full service. So you have all the MEP, um, [00:05:30] arm of it, which is who we usually, you know, I think why we usually team up with you guys and, you know, we were talking prior to starting, uh, [00:05:40] this podcast, but sometimes we even go after the same projects architecturally. Um, and I think it's, I think it's great.
[00:05:47] **Jennifer:** Competition is great. Um, and, [00:05:50] um, but it's, it's always been a, a good collaboration and I think having an MEP team who has that architecture side is, is really only a benefit because there's, I, [00:06:00] I think it's a little bit more built in as far as what they, what they expect and, and they know how we work already because they're sitting next to them, you know, in their own office.
## [00:06:09] How many people and projects are in your firms?
[00:06:09] **Chris:** So just for a little [00:06:10] more context, how many folks are on each team and like how many active projects? And because you have like this portfolio of different types, do you have a sense for what that rough [00:06:20] breakdown would be?
[00:06:20] **Aaron:** You asked this question a lot and I think we, we answer a little bit. Uh, uh, the people, that part we can, we can say for sure.
[00:06:27] **Aaron:** Um, I believe we're 14 full [00:06:30] time. Mm-hmm. Um, so we're relatively small, um, project active projects and, and everybody on here is probably in the, in [00:06:40] the AE world. So they understand the challenges of keeping track of all of 'em. 'cause some of 'em go away for a year or two at a time and then come back and you never know if they're fully there or [00:06:50] gone.
[00:06:50] **Aaron:** Um, but, uh, how many would you say, Jen, that we are actively, we have as far as active projects in the all, in all the phases?
[00:06:59] **Jennifer:** I would say at [00:07:00] least over a couple dozen. Yeah.
[00:07:01] **Aaron:** You
[00:07:02] **Jennifer:** know, again, some are a couple years old, they're still hanging out there. Some are, they move super slow and some move fast, [00:07:10] but, and it might be actually be more, um, but
[00:07:12] **Aaron:** our actual job list is much longer than that.
[00:07:15] **Aaron:** But it's whether or not, yeah. You know, some of them we don't hit very often, but we probably have between [00:07:20] 50 or 60 in, in our actual
[00:07:22] mm-hmm.
[00:07:22] **Aaron:** Active job list. But I wouldn't say they're all active.
[00:07:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:27] **Aaron:** True. Which is plenty for our firm size. [00:07:30]
[00:07:32] **Steve:** From our side, we're 62, not including interns. So we, I think this year we have five or six interns coming in to help out, [00:07:40] um, active projects.
[00:07:41] **Steve:** Thankfully, analytics keeps track of that. For me, we have 384 active projects right now.
[00:07:47] Mm-hmm. And that
[00:07:48] **Steve:** ranges like studio GWA [00:07:50] from anywhere, from SDS, all the way through construction. So from that side, I would say, you know, day-to-day basis our dds, CDs and SD projects are [00:08:00] probably in the hundreds, but it mm-hmm.
[00:08:02] **Steve:** It varies depending on seasonality and kind of workflow and sub project size.
## [00:08:07] How do you structure your projects?
[00:08:07] **Chris:** i'd love to hear more about how you [00:08:10] structure those projects out.
[00:08:11] **Aaron:** That's always a, a challenge from our side when we're, when we're looking at them, we try to be as consistent. I think like everybody, you, you [00:08:20] try to set up the perfect system that's gonna hit everything. And despite our great attempts, it never works. That, that something that, you know, there's [00:08:30] always, there's always some caveat within a project that that changes things.
[00:08:33] **Aaron:** And it doesn't, the, the standard doesn't apply quite as well. So we still though try to, you know, as [00:08:40] far as phasing and timeline, you know, phasing, we use a standard phasing for pretty much everything, with the exception of, like I mentioned, we have an urban planning, um, side of the firm [00:08:50] that's a completely different animal.
[00:08:52] **Aaron:** Um, and, um, we. Those, we get some interesting named phases and interesting grouping just because [00:09:00] it's usually by a different type of work with a municipality outlined by their, their particular, um, their particular
[00:09:08] need at
[00:09:08] **Aaron:** that point. Yeah, their [00:09:10] particular requirements. Um, but on the architecture side, architecture and interior design side, we are typically in the, you know, conceptual design [00:09:20] schematic on our way on through, um, construction administration side of things.
[00:09:25] **Aaron:** Um, and there may be slight variations depending [00:09:30] upon, um, the projects that have gone longer and scope changes. Inevitably we end up maybe with some additional service sides. Um, [00:09:40] but typically we try to stay in those standard phases. Um, duration becomes a challenge though, and, uh, we've, we've also, I. We've also noticed, [00:09:50] um, and Jen jump in anywhere here, but we've noticed that, uh, uh, maybe sometimes we're a little bit more, uh, uh, optimistic with the, [00:10:00] the phase durations.
[00:10:02] **Aaron:** And I don't mean necessarily with what we can accomplish, though we are off, obviously off sometimes and in timelines there, but also optimistic on response [00:10:10] times and how project's gonna move through. We all hope and anticipate the project goes from schematic design to construction documents and into construction in a consistent fashion.
[00:10:19] **Aaron:** [00:10:20] But, you know, project financing changes, the, the, the world situation changes and everything adjusts the same way as market conditions adjust, [00:10:30] schedules change, um, which becomes an interesting project management, uh, challenge, um mm-hmm. Both internally and then also with client side of things. [00:10:40] So I don't know.
[00:10:41] **Aaron:** Other comments on that, Jen?
[00:10:42] **Jennifer:** No, I would agree. I think the challenge too is making sure that we keep our MEP team or consultants, you know, in the loop [00:10:50] when things do change, if they change. Um, I know we've shared the monograph has that nice, uh, ability to share schedules. You know, you send the link and that's, it's always like a [00:11:00] live, um, live schedule link.
[00:11:01] **Jennifer:** And that's, that's been helpful,
[00:11:03] **Jennifer:** um, as everyone knows.
[00:11:05] **Jennifer:** The other issue is when you're creating these proposals and you're putting these schedules [00:11:10] together for the owners and they don't quite understand why it's gonna take so long, and you're trying to tell them, no, actually this is like, if everything in the world like aligned, if every star aligned, [00:11:20] we think we could get it done in the short amount of time, but it's not gonna happen.
[00:11:24] **Jennifer:** And they don't un, you know, you try to give them examples of some hurdles that might actually, you know, that we might come [00:11:30] across. And I think that's where I personally struggle is, is conveying that to, to our clients on. On the things that they, the reality, the, the [00:11:40] true reality of, of where, um, things will likely end up.
[00:11:43] **Jennifer:** And Steven, I don't know if you have any, uh, tricks that you can share with us, but it's always, seems always like a, it's a struggle. [00:11:50]
[00:11:52] **Steve:** I, I would agree. And I think in today's world too, with everything being more and more fast paced mm-hmm. Um, we obviously try and stick to your [00:12:00] standard schedules, your standard SDDD phases phased approach.
[00:12:04] **Steve:** Sometimes those phases start to get a little blurred, which makes it more and more challenging. Um, the design [00:12:10] side of things, um, as teams, you know, their, their expectations and then, or their realistic expectations, and then maybe a client's desire and just trying to manage [00:12:20] that from a project management standpoint or an owner.
[00:12:22] **Steve:** Um, being able to communicate kind of what is reality to the owner in, in a nice fashion, I would say. [00:12:30] So as far as tricks, Jen. Be patient. I don't know. Yeah, there's no, there's no real way. It's just, to be honest, it's just having the [00:12:40] tolerance and being able to communicate and listen to your clients.
[00:12:43] **Steve:** That's all, that's what we try and do. It seems to work out most of the time.
[00:12:47] Mm-hmm. [00:12:50]
[00:12:50] **Steve:** Or just push your end engineering team a little harder and make them go faster. And we do that. Sometimes we do that, sometimes.
[00:12:57] **Jennifer:** Well, you know, but that's, it's true. Something that we have [00:13:00] to kind of always remind ourselves when we're putting our, the proposal together or the timelines together.
[00:13:05] **Jennifer:** Um, this isn't just us, you know, because our consultants are [00:13:10] lagging, structural is gonna be behind us. I, me p's gonna be behind us because we need to develop those base plans and then, you know, we think we're gonna be done at this date, but they're not. And it's, you know, I think [00:13:20] it's something to always, you know, I have to remind myself all the time that it's not just about me.
[00:13:25] **Jennifer:** We have other, we have other friends that we have to consider. So,
[00:13:28] **Robert:** This is what makes [00:13:30] architecture, uh, in the process of making the built environment incredibly difficult. There's so many moving variables.
[00:13:36] Mm-hmm. Um,
[00:13:37] **Robert:** we got events that we completely cannot [00:13:40] control. So these are like the stock market, the markets itself.
[00:13:44] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Taxes, policies, government. Um, then you have [00:13:50] expectation setting, um, language communication, um, both with the client and then with all the other teams that have to roll up to each other. It's incredibly [00:14:00] hard. Um, I've been asked many times in terms of like, well, building monograph can't be that difficult.
[00:14:06] **Robert:** And I was like, it is difficult. Uh, [00:14:10] we're trying to solve a very complex problem with a lot of different stakeholders, uh, and we really want to help architects, engineers get all the way to the finish line. Um, it [00:14:20] is incredibly difficult.
[00:14:21] **Aaron:** That's, yeah. It's a, it's a interesting thing because it's a, I think coming into the industry, you have this, this expectation [00:14:30] or, or maybe it's this dreamy view of, oh, projects are just like studio was whenever you were in college and it's, [00:14:40] I have three months start here, and then that's the end, and that's, that's where it goes.
[00:14:44] **Aaron:** But the reality is a lot messier. Um, even on, like Jen [00:14:50] said, even when things go really smoothly, um, our smoothest projects still are not a perfect timeline and, uh, especially when we're working in existing buildings almost exclusively. [00:15:00] You encounter all sorts of things that, um, I I will often say that I'm not, I'm not [00:15:10] surprised or I, I should say I'm surprised though.
[00:15:13] **Aaron:** I was, I I was expecting to be surprised in many ways. You know, you're, you're, you know, it's coming. You just don't necessarily know what it [00:15:20] is. Uh, you've done enough of it that to know that there will be something hiding somewhere, um, that will cause a, cause an issue or, or delay [00:15:30] a delay or as we often will say, we, we are encountering another opportunity to, uh,
[00:15:38] to
[00:15:38] **Aaron:** shine.
[00:15:39] **Aaron:** So, [00:15:40] um, there's lots of, lots of variables that cause, uh, that make it a, make it a very interesting, it's a very dynamic, it's a very dynamic industry in that way, I would say.
[00:15:49] **Robert:** [00:15:50] Um, it does make for a fantastic leader. And I think all three of you're incredible leaders 'cause you embrace the ambiguity, uh, that impacts our lives every single day.
[00:15:59] **Robert:** Like [00:16:00] that's just a fact of reality. Um, it is not school. We don't start school on the day after Labor Day, and we don't end the day before. Christmas. She's been a [00:16:10] long time. So I hope that's still the school schedule. Uh, uh, I wish, I wish life was so structured, but like, I think really strong leadership [00:16:20] exhibits, the ability to navigate ambiguity, um, has a really good consistency that helps, keeps things moving.
[00:16:27] **Robert:** Um, but enough agility [00:16:30] to kind of like manage things that come in and out of our lives, both working and professionally.
[00:16:34] Mm-hmm.
## [00:16:34] How do you structure your time?
[00:16:34] **Robert:** Now I'm like, I'm really curious, like, how do you, how do you structure your time, like on a regular, daily, [00:16:40] weekly, monthly, like from running the firm, running a project, running your lives?
[00:16:46] **Robert:** Um, I imagine there's also maybe a [00:16:50] little bit different in terms of like the ambiguity of your daily schedule.
[00:16:53] **Aaron:** Go for it, Jen.
[00:16:55] **Jennifer:** Yeah, a little bit. You know, I, I try, I think [00:17:00] I. One thing I've learned is that I just need to just go with it sometimes it, and, and not get too wound up when things don't go as planned.
[00:17:08] **Jennifer:** You know, I try and fill my [00:17:10] calendar with some of my to-do list as much as I possibly can, but, um, I've learned the older I get, the more I have to take care of myself first, because if I'm not, um, [00:17:20] healthy or even mentally clear, um, then no one, no, I can't convey my ideas. I can't have decent meetings. Um, [00:17:30] you know, it's, it makes everything harder.
[00:17:32] **Jennifer:** So I think, you know, from a business standpoint, we always, you know, try and take, I always try to take, you know, a [00:17:40] few hours a week and just focus on that entirely. But that always doesn't always, you know, it doesn't go as planned as well. So I don't know if you guys have any other,
[00:17:48] **Steve:** let's say, yeah, [00:17:50] I.
[00:17:51] **Steve:** Getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Being able to kinda live in a little bit of discomfort. We're not always gonna be able to do everything that we want because things come [00:18:00] up on a daily basis. You might have a task list, 10 items long and those are the things I'm gonna get done today.
[00:18:05] **Steve:** And you get one of them done and you get home and you're just, you know, [00:18:10] mentally exhausted from days after like that. But just recognizing that, you know, time's come and go and it is just doing your best to keep moving forward.
[00:18:19] **Jennifer:** Mm-hmm. [00:18:20] And then communicating that, you know, I think communicating that to your own team, to your consultants, to your owners.
[00:18:25] **Jennifer:** I was really hoping to get farther this week and I just didn't, and that's, you know, of [00:18:30] course it's easier to say and then it's Sunday and you realize you haven't communicated your delay. But, um, that's unfortunately part of life.
[00:18:38] **Aaron:** Yeah. I think, [00:18:40] and Jen's got to experience this with me. I've, I've, I am a systems person.
[00:18:43] **Aaron:** I like to try to try to establish, she laughs 'cause. I sit across from her most of the time and [00:18:50] she gets to bear the brunt of a lot of it. Um, but, uh, I, in my dream world, like you said, Robert, I would, everything would be scheduled an app and clean, [00:19:00] and clean and predictable. Uh, and I have tried to go there and been very frustrated and discouraged when it do, hasn't all been [00:19:10] super clean and clear.
[00:19:11] **Aaron:** And so I have similarly kind of backed off on some of that. Here's my expectation for my day schedule. A lot of, a lot of [00:19:20] things. I have kids as well that are involved in a lot of things and try, don't want to miss all of that stuff as well. So I've been tried, I've been trying [00:19:30] to anyways, um, prioritize certain things in, in the morning and other things in the afternoons when I know that my brain space may not be as, as [00:19:40] clear.
[00:19:40] **Aaron:** Um. I don't draw as much as I used to. Neither does Jen, but, uh, if I am, I know that I can, I can do a lot more of that in the afternoon. 'cause [00:19:50] I don't need quite as much mental clarity maybe to, um, to think with a pencil. So I, I will do a lot of that stuff in the afternoon that requires a little, I'm [00:20:00] not writing as much and things of that sort.
[00:20:01] **Aaron:** Um
[00:20:02] mm-hmm.
[00:20:02] **Aaron:** And, and like, like Steven said, some days are a little bit more frustrating than others when you get one, one thing checked off your list and five things [00:20:10] added to it. But it is, uh, it is, it is, uh, there's always another day, right? There's always another day.
[00:20:17] **Robert:** It, it,
[00:20:18] **Aaron:** until there's not, [00:20:20]
[00:20:21] **Robert:** it's, it is taken me a long time to practice this where I'm a little bit more like you Aaron.
[00:20:26] **Robert:** Like, I like things very, very structured. I like to know what I'm walking [00:20:30] into and I, I like to know what's expected. Um, and I've realized that that's probably never gonna happen. Um, and actually I find a lot of [00:20:40] joy in the process of trying to achieve it. Um, so like I get a lot of joy of just getting things done, being there for my team, being on this webinar, [00:20:50] doing good work.
[00:20:51] **Robert:** Um, so like if I don't make it all the way to the finish line, that's okay. 'cause that wasn't the inherent goal. Uh, the inherent goal is actually [00:21:00] to enjoy the process. Um, and a schedule just helps me keep a little bit of structure so I know where I need to be and what I need to accomplish. Um, [00:21:10] but the goal was never to like get it all done.
[00:21:12] **Robert:** The goal was just have fun doing it.
[00:21:14] Yeah, I agree.
[00:21:15] **Robert:** Absolutely. As I get older too, I tend to do all the hard things in the morning that is [00:21:20] absolutely different than when I was younger. Uh, procrastination sets in when I was younger. I did all the hard things at night. Um, I realize I am just sharper. [00:21:30] Um, and like my mental capacity solve really hard problems exist between six in the morning and noon.
[00:21:36] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. As soon as I have lunch, [00:21:40] uh, it's kind of like I'm still doing work, but my ability to solve really hard problems becomes extraordinarily difficult. Um, I, [00:21:50] I gotta lower the, let's say the severity of the complexity of that problem drastically, uh, immediately after launch.
[00:21:57] **Aaron:** Mm-hmm. That is true. That is true.
[00:21:59] **Aaron:** Yeah. I
[00:21:59] **Steve:** [00:22:00] agree with that. Hundred percent. I'm an morning person, about 12. I start to get a fatigue throughout the. Anything that is complex and needs a [00:22:10] lot of thought I do
[00:22:11] **Robert:** in the morning right when I get to work.
[00:22:12] Mm-hmm. I
[00:22:13] **Robert:** would love to spend more time in Spain because I'm sure they figured it out, which is why they Yes.
[00:22:17] **Robert:** And why there's such a long gap
[00:22:19] in [00:22:20] that.
[00:22:20] **Robert:** Um, I just don't Good point. We've figured it out here in the us
[00:22:24] **Aaron:** we've, uh, we've, uh, our founder, um, who's now retired, but our, our [00:22:30] founder Gary, when, when did he en, en enact the hours that we have? Jen? It's been decades. Oh. I've been here
[00:22:36] **Jennifer:** 19 years and it's been the same.
[00:22:37] **Jennifer:** So it's, yeah.
[00:22:39] **Aaron:** Yeah. Uh, we [00:22:40] have, we have, we, we do kind of normal hours seven 30 to five 30 Monday through Thursday, and then seven 30 to 1130 loosely on Friday. [00:22:50] And, um, coming from, I came from the trades. I was carpenter prior to this, coming from that world where you are done at five or [00:23:00] five 30 on Friday night and.
[00:23:02] **Aaron:** Basically the weekend is Saturday and then you're looking at Monday, all of a sudden on Sunday. Um, [00:23:10] that extra, that extra four hours, extra four or five hours on Friday, even though some of us mm-hmm. May bleed into the afternoon working. It's a little quieter at least because, [00:23:20] um, people like Steven aren't calling us on Friday afternoons because we're closed.
[00:23:24] **Steve:** Don't call you. I can still find you.
[00:23:28] **Aaron:** Uh, but that extra bit, [00:23:30] uh, has also offered I what I feel like a, a, a scheduled buffer because knowing that technically we're, our office is [00:23:40] closed, even if I have extra work to do, um, I feel a little bit more brain space in that afternoon because the exp expect, I don't know if it's, the expectation is a little bit lower for me on that day, but [00:23:50] I can think about, I have a little bit more time, um, in the, in that afternoon.
[00:23:54] **Aaron:** So the hours has been, is a, is a good thing.
[00:23:57] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:58] **Robert:** I'm curious, when you're, [00:24:00] when you're all working on a project together, um, is it, is it a regular practice meet weekly or, or is it every other week? Or does [00:24:10] it matter? Does it, does it get determined based on like the timing of the project? So if it's in, let's say sd, uh, maybe not so frequent by the time we get to DD and [00:24:20] CDs, maybe more frequent, um, and then very regularly together on during ca phases, like, I'm curious, like how do you think about that [00:24:30] cadence structure specifically around working and collaborating on a project?
[00:24:34] **Robert:** I.
[00:24:34] **Steve:** I would say from our team's collaboration, um, and everybody on this call, typically [00:24:40] those meetings tend to, we, we tend to have more meetings as the project progresses. A lot of times early on we'll have a kickoff meeting and just discuss the project as a whole. [00:24:50] And then once all the team members get on board, we start to kind of evaluate and make, making sure that we're coordinating different components.
[00:24:57] **Steve:** Mechanical rooms are sized properly, [00:25:00] and there becomes a lot more coordination as you move forward within the design process. So I think the cadence obviously picks up as you move through that design process and the meeting [00:25:10] timeframe, or we have more frequent meetings throughout that process as well.
[00:25:13] **Steve:** So, absolutely. And you as a, a, you were an architect for 10 years, so I'm sure you're very [00:25:20] familiar with how that process works.
[00:25:22] **Robert:** Yeah, I am very, very familiar. It's, it is a lot of reasons why I started monograph six years ago. It was one like making sure that those [00:25:30] meetings actually occur. Um, and not only that, like this will be an interesting topic, that one of the big reasons why I started monograph was I felt like 99% of [00:25:40] the conversations, 99.9% of the conversations I would have while executing on, on work, uh, was about delivery of the work.
[00:25:49] **Robert:** So it was about like [00:25:50] drawings that we had to do, details we had to solve, uh, design systems that we had to like align on and almost never around, let's say the [00:26:00] financials, the scope and, and timelines of the, of the project. Um, and then unfortunately I was a lot younger, so like I had managers and principles.
[00:26:08] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um, I [00:26:10] would always get yelled at when we're behind, I'll say, Hey, like. It was never my intention to be behind schedule, either on budget or on time. I just don't have enough visibility [00:26:20] into that so I can, I can manage appropriately. Um, and that, that sparked the idea of Mar Graph six years ago was like, Hey, like we should really focus on, on time and [00:26:30] money.
[00:26:30] **Robert:** Um, 'cause this is an area that most architects we get to talk about when it comes to, uh, project delivery. Mm-hmm. Only 'cause we're all so [00:26:40] passionate about design and so passionate about the architecture, that that's where 90% of our energy goes. Mm-hmm. Um, I just wanna make sure that we're, [00:26:50] we do, we are a services industry and like time and money does matter.
[00:26:54] **Robert:** Um, and misalignments, there actually is a very bad thing. Mm-hmm. Because it actually has a [00:27:00] massive amount of impacts across the entire firm. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:01] **Jennifer:** And I think even, you know, we were talking internally in our office yesterday, it. Having staff or giving staff [00:27:10] that ability to see where they are, um, in that process financially, I think is so critical.
[00:27:16] **Jennifer:** It's been really great. Um, [00:27:20] and I, you know, it helps them, I think, identify the time that they have left, what are they gonna focus on, what, you know. Um, and the same too, a little bit [00:27:30] with, I think our consultants, we don't see their day to day, but, um, the overall process of it, I think makes it's, it's [00:27:40] visually appealing and easy to understand.
[00:27:43] **Aaron:** Yeah. The, uh, the, as you mentioned, Robert, we could, we are 90%, 90, we'd like to spend [00:27:50] 90% of our time on, on the design side of things. Although at this point that would be amazing. I feel like some, some weeks it'd be great to spend that much time in design, but, um. [00:28:00] I actually really enjoy the business side of things as well.
[00:28:02] **Aaron:** But, um, we, we have, we work with CVG, um, TR Venture Group as, as we mentioned [00:28:10] earlier, but the, the reason working with them kind of made apparent and what we, what so many small business owners know that oftentimes you [00:28:20] become a business owner, not because you are great at business or you were trained in business, but because you love the thing that you do, which
[00:28:26] mm-hmm.
[00:28:26] **Aaron:** Doesn't equal you. Were good at [00:28:30] making that a successful business. It just means that you may have been skilled at what you did, um, and, uh, and oftentimes not always, that [00:28:40] may mean that you're actually pretty bad at business and you, you've spent all of your time being good at what you did and didn't understand the numbers side of it, and didn't understand the time side of it and all of that.[00:28:50]
[00:28:50] **Aaron:** Um, so it's been working with them. And then also, yeah, the, the struggle is often keeping, keeping tabs on. Awareness is a big, big part of it, right? You know how, [00:29:00] and again, in my past life as a carpenter, one of the things that, uh, that we always did was, uh, was everybody on the crew knew how, what the, [00:29:10] what the number was.
[00:29:10] **Aaron:** This is how many hours we have, this is how many, so this is the expectation we're gonna hit that, that, because if you don't know, you spend an [00:29:20] extra 30 minutes working on this spot, an extra 30 minutes working over there, and pretty soon you're 50 hours over on something that was only a 50 hour project to begin with.[00:29:30]
[00:29:30] **Aaron:** Um, and it's the same thing only I think with the scale of projects that we, that we work on, it can, you know, if we have, you know, 5,000 hours in a project over three years, [00:29:40] two years, if we're off incrementally every time, wasting time here or there, and without any awareness, you can bleed away a lot of hours working on details that [00:29:50] nobody's gonna care about.
[00:29:51] **Aaron:** That don't really affect the overall approach to the project. They may be important to us and we wanna make sure that they're there, but it's easy to lose [00:30:00] track. Um, it's like budgeting just only just on hours. Don't nickel and dime yourself away. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:07] **Chris:** So speaking about systems, speaking about like [00:30:10] all these variables at play, what kinds of tools are both of your firms using?
[00:30:16] **Chris:** Uh, so you've got tools as software, [00:30:20] but you've also got mental models, systems. Um, we'd love to hear about, um, how you think about those two things in at play.
[00:30:28] **Aaron:** Go ahead, Steven. You can [00:30:30] start.
[00:30:30] **Steve:** So the tools that we, I mean, we use Del Tech in our office, so that's kind of what produces all the analytics that we track for, for KIPP standpoint, anything from on [00:30:40] the business side really is tracked through Del Tech, um, from project management through business, you know, finances, things of that nature.
[00:30:49] **Steve:** [00:30:50] I would say, um, as a part of that, obviously tools on a day-to-day basis from a collaboration standpoint, everybody's in today's society, I think is using Revit. So [00:31:00] from collaboration with, you know, individuals like Studio GWA or whatever that may be, it really helps and enhances the ability to collaborate on projects.[00:31:10]
[00:31:10] **Steve:** Um, Aaron, if you wanna add to that and identify the tools that you guys are using. Yeah,
[00:31:16] **Aaron:** yeah. We use, we use Revit as well, and on, on a team [00:31:20] collaboration basis. We, we do work on central. Central models so we can see their work, they can see our work. Um, anybody in the midst of all that knows that it's [00:31:30] not just as live as they make it, say make it sound, but it's a, it's as, as I would say, a lot better than it could be.
[00:31:37] **Aaron:** Um, and we use a lot of other tools [00:31:40] outside of that on the architecture side of things, but um, wise, um, we use monograph on the project management, firm management side of things, um, which has been really good. [00:31:50] Um, and being one thing that I think has benefited us Though we were working remotely with people before I.
[00:31:57] **Aaron:** Um, in 2020 when the world changed, [00:32:00] um, we were already in the process of moving everything completely cloud-based. We have some staff that are, that are remote, um, a couple of staff that are fully remote, and then a lot of staff [00:32:10] that are kind of in and out. Um, I work in two different offices depending on time of time of week and, and, um, whatnot.
[00:32:17] **Aaron:** And so we had already started some of those [00:32:20] virtual meetings. We all, we all have experienced that a lot, but, uh, our weekly meetings went from, uh, or I should say we, we may not have had weekly coordination meetings [00:32:30] with engineers before then. We may have had touch bases here and there, but with the, we use Microsoft Teams and Microsoft environment, um, for a lot of things.
[00:32:37] **Aaron:** And so we will, [00:32:40] especially. Between offices. Um, we'll have recurring, recurring calls on projects that then if there's nothing, it's just canceled. But, [00:32:50] um, we have that kind of standing meeting on a, on, on different projects where we're communicating in that way. So a lot of collaboration that way. We used Slack in the past.
[00:32:58] **Aaron:** Nothing against Slack at [00:33:00] all, just integration wise. Um, and, uh, so we are mainly those, those things we are mainly monograph and then the Autodesk side or on [00:33:10] Autodesk on the production side of things. And, um, then Microsoft Office World for, um, for the rest of it.
[00:33:17] **Steve:** I forgot about Microsoft. I remember when we used to [00:33:20] cra or sit in a conference room every Monday and we would have our weekly, weekly meetings.
[00:33:24] **Steve:** Everybody would sit around the table. Now, all of our meetings internally have really moved [00:33:30] towards a virtual setting. Obviously, I, I'm an individual who really likes that face-to-face interaction, be able to see individuals body language and talk to them, you know, shake their [00:33:40] hand. That's just the person that I am.
[00:33:42] **Steve:** But I, I think with today's digital society, it's just, you know, the convenience. You're not, you don't have to drive to every single construction meeting anymore. [00:33:50] You can have some meetings can be taken place virtually, and you can get the same information out of them. And it really enhances our ability to be more efficient with the job that we're doing and the [00:34:00] tasks that we're trying to accomplish.
## [00:34:02] How will the Architect-Engineer relationship change?
[00:34:02] **Robert:** Where do you think the relationship between architects and engineers and how we work together is gonna change? Um, in the coming, in the [00:34:10] coming years? 'cause like I know, um, monograph here, we're moving in a direction where we're trying to bring that collaboration a little bit more tighter. Um, Revit's been trying to do [00:34:20] that for a few decades now, and I think there's a few other design design tools out there that are trying to accomplish that.
[00:34:26] **Robert:** Um, I'm really interested to get everyone's take here in [00:34:30] terms of like, what, what does that collaboration, collaboration starts to look like when you start to think about the, the client to the architect, architect to [00:34:40] engineers, engineers to the rest of engineers, to the general contractor, to your procurement and vendors, to your subcontractors.
[00:34:47] **Robert:** Like there's actually quite a lot of stakeholders [00:34:50] involved. Uh, when we think about a project from, from start to finish.
[00:34:54] **Steve:** I personally think the tools that monograph has to offer, whether it relates to scheduling and [00:35:00] setting that up, and I don't know, I guess we don't have monograph in our office, but if it could kind of track time on both ends, so you could see holistic project fees.
[00:35:09] **Steve:** Um, [00:35:10] being able to track finances almost together or working as a team to accomplish that really would help. It makes it more of a cohesive team as one. So you're working [00:35:20] towards the same goal. Obviously there's a delineation of fee there because you're two different entities, but from an internal standpoint where we have architects, we're able to do that on our side and [00:35:30] we're able to track and see kind of where we're at on overall project from a completion standpoint where they're at on the design side, and it would allow everybody to kind of [00:35:40] understand the next steps moving forward.
[00:35:42] **Robert:** David, you, you sneaking into a product roadmap like what's going on?[00:35:50]
[00:35:50] **Robert:** Um, I, I am curious like what other challenges you might see ahead, um, that like, it's just things are just gonna get a little bit more complex. Um, I [00:36:00] imagine with, with collaboration, um, it's more and more a distributed world. Both of you have mentioned that teams are now distributed, uh, either partially or [00:36:10] fully.
[00:36:10] **Robert:** Mm-hmm. Um, meetings are becoming more and more digital versus in person. Um, and there's, there's gonna be a whole bunch of new tools that are gonna [00:36:20] change the way we work. Um, Jen and Erin love, love to hear what, what, what's top of mind for both of you?
[00:36:27] **Aaron:** I think the, one of the things that I've been thinking about [00:36:30] and we, we've talked a bit about internally and actually with other firms is that, um, I.
[00:36:35] **Aaron:** I, I am, am thankful for and appreciate the flexibility that we are [00:36:40] offered now with technology. And like, like Steven said, it doesn't, we work, we work mainly around the Midwest, but we have projects around the country, um, as far [00:36:50] away as Atlanta and Philadelphia and other elsewhere. But, um, and those projects would be a lot more difficult if we did not have the tools that we have now.
[00:36:59] **Aaron:** [00:37:00] And I could see them getting even easier with, um, additional tools. We scan, uh, we have a, we, we do 3D scans of all of our building. Uh, every project that we work on, we do 3D [00:37:10] scan. Um, so that's one of those things in the last say eight years that has improved our ability and I imagine it's gonna get even better.
[00:37:17] **Aaron:** We we're on our what, fourth iteration of [00:37:20] scanners at this point as well, and they've just gotten more and more. Um, accurate, more and more, um, efficient every time. But I think one of the [00:37:30] challenges, I am a, I'm a face-to-face person as, as Steven is, um, and, uh, there is some, one of the challenges that I, that I see and that we encounter even in our [00:37:40] office is the knowledge transfer that occurs on the incidentals and the incidental time that you, that you spend with, with your coworkers and whether it's a project you're [00:37:50] working on or not, if you are not present and in, in this physical space together, um, you don't necessarily get the benefit of learning [00:38:00] from learning from a, a struggle that somebody else is having, or, this is something I've been curious about, but I don't, it's not on my project and I, but I heard you guys [00:38:10] talking about it and, and, and, and that, so I having kind of come up in the industry in an, in a very.[00:38:20]
[00:38:20] **Aaron:** Collaborative environment where you are constantly talking with the people around you, um, and hearing overhearing conversations and and [00:38:30] whatnot. I learned a lot in those, in those sys in that environment. And, um, that's one of the, I think, challenges is replace replacing [00:38:40] of, I, and I know that there are systems and, and other things coming into play.
[00:38:44] **Aaron:** Jen sent, uh, sent an example to me last night that I'm gonna look at, but, uh, uh, [00:38:50] ways to train staff on things that we may have learned from observing the person right next to us. If there's not a person right next to you, what are, where are you getting that knowledge and how [00:39:00] are you learning it? So that's one of the challenges in my opinion, is knowledge transfer.
[00:39:04] **Aaron:** And, uh, because knowledge transfer is not always a, I think a lot of the knowledge transfer is not scheduled. It's not a thing [00:39:10] that I, I sat down to we're, we're having a meeting and now I'm learning something. It is, it was incidental, accidental. Almost [00:39:20] via osmosis.
[00:39:23] **Jennifer:** Oh yeah. I think that's, that's really true.
[00:39:25] **Jennifer:** It's something that we don't think about. It's unscheduled time. Um, and before you know it, then [00:39:30] we're questioning, well, why, why isn't this, why isn't the team understanding? Uh, you know, this, the, the challenge of this particular detail or, um, construction. [00:39:40] And I think the other thing too that's changing as much, I mean for, for both industries, um, ourselves and consultants is, is construction.
[00:39:49] **Jennifer:** [00:39:50] And we're seeing what technology is is and how it can help with construction. And um, I think back to one of our projects [00:40:00] that I believe Aaron, the Woodstock project, it Yep. You know, it was scanned every night, correct me if I'm wrong, but the contractor used a, a [00:40:10] scanner so that it was really photographing progress, I think consistently, um, to some degree and.
[00:40:17] **Jennifer:** That helps us when we're not, [00:40:20] uh, you know, in person all the time to better understand things that are, that have, you know, been modified or changed. And, um, yeah. And then going back to your original [00:40:30] question of, you know, how, how are we gonna work together differently? I don't know. I didn't see AI coming, I didn't see a lot of this stuff coming.
[00:40:36] **Jennifer:** So I am, I, I feel like I am, I'm gonna, [00:40:40] I'm gonna be hopefully surprised. In a good way,
[00:40:43] **Robert:** Jen. You should visit me in San Francisco and take a ride in a Waymo. It, it is, yeah. [00:40:50] It is kind of outta world. Like I know Waymo's don't exist in every city, so like, um, but here it's, it outnumbers Ubers and taxis mm-hmm.[00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Which is totally
[00:41:01] **Robert:** just a bunch of cars everywhere, just driving around there. No drivers. Like, it's the first time seeing it. You kind of have to get used to the thought that, hey, like there's no one [00:41:10] in that driver's seat. And then over time it's like, oh, like this is. Oh my God, this is where we're going.
[00:41:15] **Jennifer:** Yeah, it's fascinating.
## [00:41:17] What's a project that tested your collaboration?
[00:41:17] **Chris:** Speaking of that knowledge transfer, is there [00:41:20] an example of a project that brought out an obstacle? There was a test, and uh, somehow you got through it.
[00:41:27] **Aaron:** I'm curious, Steven, what do you think? [00:41:30] What is he gonna say? We have,
[00:41:33] **Steve:** we've challenged Steven a lot, which I, I think was about a year ago actually, there was a structured project that was pretty [00:41:40] difficult as well.
[00:41:40] **Steve:** Um, but one year ago, the project that comes to mind is, and it was predominantly driven just by changes that were happening. We were working through design [00:41:50] and as everybody knows, design isn't always smooth, a smooth process. But, uh, I think we probably went through five iterations on a different project and we just kept going back and [00:42:00] forth.
[00:42:00] **Steve:** It was a, um, restaurant actually, and the client didn't really understand what they wanted to do, so they constantly changed things and that became [00:42:10] a struggle, as we talked about earlier, with just with professional fees, things of that nature. They're always trying to manage that time. Obviously the, we're a service industry, so we need to do what's right.
[00:42:19] **Steve:** We need to [00:42:20] make sure that we're giving that client what they deserve in providing value added service, but. I think that was probably one of the more challenging projects. Aaron? I don't, I think Jen, were you on [00:42:30] that one or was Aaron?
[00:42:30] **Jennifer:** Nope. No, this just Aaron.
[00:42:32] **Steve:** It was just Aaron. Okay.
[00:42:34] **Aaron:** Uh, yeah, it's a, it is a, I think that the, the thing that [00:42:40] has been a recurring theme throughout,
[00:42:41] **Aaron:** oh, lost you better. How about, how about, how about team in my, uh, in, in my career [00:42:50] is communication, communicate, uh, clearly and often. And I think it's especially important between consultants because, uh, we may be the main contact point with [00:43:00] the client, um, because we hold our consultants contracts and, um, and if we don't, just like, if something [00:43:10] changes on our side, we're doing an additional service.
[00:43:11] **Aaron:** If we don't communicate that to the client quickly and, and ahead of time, I would say I. It gets, it makes that conversation that much more [00:43:20] difficult. And if we are too quick to say something like Jen said, uh, we're not the only ones in the world that, uh, are the only ones on this project. If we communicate too quickly, um, without [00:43:30] communicating first with Steven on, oh, hey, this is revision number five now, and funny story, we're ending up.
[00:43:36] **Aaron:** We get exactly where we started with one. Uh, but, uh, [00:43:40] but, um, no, nobody could have predicted that happening. Um, but the, uh, the, if we, if we don't communicate [00:43:50] with each other re or regularly on that, this is where we're at, it's occurred recently too on some structural stuff. Like, Hey, this is where we're at.
[00:43:58] **Aaron:** This is how we got here, [00:44:00] this is the result. Uh, it's a lot easier to communicate that with a client as well. So I would say that it's. Steven, not all of our consultants are as, as easy to pick up the phone and, [00:44:10] and give a call to, um, most of, most of 'em are pretty good. We work with some good people. Um, but that I think is the, the thing that is, is most prevalent on [00:44:20] my mind is communicate, uh, quickly and often.
[00:44:24] **Aaron:** Um, even if it's uncertain, we think we're gonna go this way. How would that would affect you? How would that [00:44:30] affect you? What do you, what would that be cost, service wise? How quickly, because of course, the first questions from the client are how, what, how much is it gonna cost and what's it gonna take? How much time is it gonna take?[00:44:40]
[00:44:40] **Aaron:** And they would like it to be free. And now, and, uh, not all of 'em, but that's often the, you know, we, we even assume that that's what they're thinking. Um, though a lot of clients are a [00:44:50] little bit more understanding than that. So communication being the biggest one.
[00:44:54] **Aaron:** Yeah. Jen, you were gonna say something? What was your, I wanna hear you.
[00:44:58] **Jennifer:** No, I, I [00:45:00] think, uh. Steve, the other issue, it's not between us, it's, it's always the, the unknowns. Like when municipalities throw a curve ball at you, I [00:45:10] mean, you, you just can't predict it all. And I think that's just why it's important to have somebody that, um, can again, go with the flow and isn't [00:45:20] realizes that we're all in the same boat.
[00:45:21] **Jennifer:** None of we, we didn't predict this. You didn't predict this. And, um, you know, the hurdle is it's mutual. You [00:45:30] know,
[00:45:30] **Aaron:** not on a project that we've worked on together, um, with, with Angus Young. But another, another project has been, uh, is top of mind for me in that
[00:45:39] [00:45:40] most
[00:45:40] **Aaron:** of our projects are pretty good at the whole team, design team. All of our consultants and the contractor, we, we, we. Tend to have very good relationships with [00:45:50] the contractors that are working on the projects.
[00:45:51] **Aaron:** And, um, always try to set it up with, Hey, we're all shooting towards the same thing. We all want to get to the same end goal. [00:46:00] There's gonna be times when you need to help me and there's gonna be times when you need my help. Mm-hmm. So let's not shoot each other mm-hmm. Uh, through the construction process.
[00:46:08] **Aaron:** Um, and, [00:46:10] uh, that never is more, more apparent than when, when that situation doesn't exist, when it's a little bit more combative and it's a, it [00:46:20] becomes a us versus them situation. Um, and we've got, um, yeah, so relationships going all the way back to the beginning of this funny, how people meet and, and [00:46:30] things I relationship is, is a very important part of all of this.
[00:46:33] **Aaron:** 'cause in the end I want to be able to see people on the street and not feel like I need to cross to the other side [00:46:40] to walk.
## [00:46:40] What’s a surprise that helped you collaborate better?
[00:46:40] **Robert:** Oh gosh, Erin, I hope, I, I hope I never feel that way. 'cause that, um, that's a horrible way of like, getting work done and just kind of like living life, like relationships. You're [00:46:50] absolutely right.
[00:46:50] **Robert:** They matter so much, um, that trust that we can work together and accomplish the same, a same goal, same vision, um, and build [00:47:00] some incredible buildings that will last way beyond our lifetime is like an incredible thing to be a part of. Mm-hmm. Um, and communication is so important to [00:47:10] making sure that that relationship stays healthy.
[00:47:12] **Robert:** Communication is so important to making sure that that trust stays very, very high. Um, and that's, that's such a [00:47:20] key essential. Um, I'm, I'm now really, really curious, like, what's the most, let's say, unexpected thing, uh, that you've, you've seen in, in [00:47:30] past projects that have helped you collaborate better. Um, that isn't, so let's say I.
[00:47:35] **Robert:** Obvious, like a relationship matters, communication [00:47:40] matters, um, trust matters. But like, what's, what's something that's been unexpected?
[00:47:45] **Jennifer:** That's a good one.
[00:47:46] **Steve:** I say that's a good question. [00:47:50] Um, silence.
[00:47:50] **Robert:** It's a harder question. I, that is a harder one. Um, well, I, maybe I'll go first in terms of like my own journey. Hmm. Um, I didn't think it [00:48:00] was gonna take me this long.
[00:48:01] Hmm.
[00:48:01] **Robert:** Like, I, you know, there's a lot of things that I feel like are very obvious and should be obvious in terms of like why they're important.
[00:48:08] **Robert:** Um, but sometimes reflecting [00:48:10] back and, and maybe, maybe I'm going through a stage I did, you know, I did just turn 40. Uh, so now I'm like trying to remember my twenties and my thirties. Like, oh, like, you know, it's [00:48:20] taking me a lot longer than I expected. Um. I, I wish it didn't for me. Um, I wish I learned it faster.
[00:48:27] **Robert:** I wish I had a mentor and I wish I, [00:48:30] and which is also another obvious thing, like I think a lot of designers, engineers and professionals should have coaches and mentorships and like someone they can lean on. And I didn't, I [00:48:40] didn't personally take advantage of that. Um, throughout my career. I kind of was, I was stubborn.
[00:48:46] **Robert:** I thought I can figure it out on my own and [00:48:50] maybe Chris can attest, I'm still kind of stubborn. Uh, try not to be
[00:48:59] **Aaron:** one [00:49:00] of the things that comes to mind, uh, while, while others, others think. Um, and what I've, what I didn't anticipate when I was, um, starting out, [00:49:10] um, I mentioned I kinda came out of the trades. Um, I, one did not anticipate how useful that would be. Um, and I think it's one [00:49:20] of the things that has made me, I.
[00:49:21] **Aaron:** Passable at my job. Um, and, uh, and the, the other is how much that has [00:49:30] helped that, that common ground helps with connections on projects, um, with contractors that we're working with, people that we have to work with [00:49:40] and have to get along with. Um, and then also, uh, I happen to have, having been on the building side of things and architecture side of things, um, one of the things that I [00:49:50] wish, uh, wish upon every, every designer, including engineer Steven, I haven't told you this part, but is to take a set of your own plans and, and with a, with a team, [00:50:00] actually build it and then discover all of the holes that exist in what you, in your, because our, they're tools of communication and not everybody can [00:50:10] read our minds.
[00:50:10] **Aaron:** And some of my more humbling experiences have been on site as. I, the one who drew everything up and also [00:50:20] was the one who was supposed to be leading construction and discovering that I don't really know what I was thinking in this one spot, or, you know, I didn't communicate this clearly and I can't remember [00:50:30] the thought process back then.
[00:50:31] **Aaron:** So, um, and, and that was an unexpected thing. Again, coming from the construction side, I assumed, oh, I'm just gonna remember all of that [00:50:40] stuff when I am in the design world exclusively. And it's a good humbling experience every once in a while to try to build something new. Drew.
[00:50:48] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:48] **Jennifer:** I'm always surprised by how [00:50:50] many people don't wanna pay us or pay us so late, and I don't know what to do about that. What's the learning experience from that? I'm not, yeah,[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] **Jennifer:** they don't, they don't teach that one in school.
[00:51:03] Yeah,
[00:51:04] **Steve:** that's true.
[00:51:05] **Steve:** I guess going back to the collaboration side of things and just thinking [00:51:10] you came from, Aaron came from kind of a different background of starting from the construction side and then working into the design side. I think it's using those past experiences too, [00:51:20] and kind of the knowledge base that you can build from one projects and transposing that to another project.
[00:51:25] **Steve:** So whether that is stepping back and looking at a plan set and just kind of trying to think [00:51:30] through that as a team or. Gaining that knowledge from a different project and finding applicability with what you're doing today. 'cause not every, I mean, projects are not the same period. [00:51:40] Um, but you can use little nuances from each project and make that process a lot more streamlined.
[00:51:45] **Steve:** You can make the communication more streamlined through that as well. Like, this is what we've [00:51:50] encountered in the past. And just maybe going back to that mentorship thing as, or mentorship topic as well, is just being able to, you know, communicate what you've been through to help the next [00:52:00] generation continue to grow.
## [00:52:01] How should Architects & Engineers work together?
[00:52:01] **Chris:** The main topic of this series. How should architects and engineers be working together?
[00:52:06] **Aaron:** How should we be working together, Steven?
[00:52:09] **Steve:** Um, I think [00:52:10] AI is gonna change how we work together, to be honest with you. Uh, I know we haven't really focused a lot on AI through these conversations, but a lot of, and I don't think it's gonna necessarily be [00:52:20] through communication aspect, because I think that's one thing that AI is not gonna be able to do.
[00:52:24] **Steve:** But from a tracking, from a metrics perspective, from, you know, identifying [00:52:30] where others are at, I think softwares will be generated to enhance that. Just transparency, I'll call it. Um, I know it sounds like monograph is gonna be [00:52:40] doing a lot of great things, so I'm sure they will find a way to enhance that communication and that effort.
[00:52:46] **Steve:** But I, I think AI is gonna really bring our field into a different [00:52:50] world that we are, we don't even understand as of now.
[00:52:53] **Jennifer:** And hopefully allow us to, I guess, be better stewards and communicate better with our clients. You know, [00:53:00] that's a little bit of my hope is getting in front of them on that education piece of it.
[00:53:05] **Jennifer:** Um, I feel, especially in the work that we do adaptive for use, people come to us, they bought a building, now what? [00:53:10] And we have to take a step back and say, okay, before you start, we need to, we kinda have to lay the groundwork on what it is that we do and how we work together and even bring in our consultants [00:53:20] sooner rather, rather than later.
[00:53:21] **Jennifer:** And talk through the different options that we have and the challenges that we are gonna see. Um, again, just [00:53:30] making sure that it's everything's. Wide open and, um, everybody's going in it, you know, with eyes wide open, basically.
[00:53:37] **Aaron:** Yeah. Early collaboration I think is, [00:53:40] is a, is an, I'm, I'm a bit jealous of Steven having the architecture and engineering all in one. That, that conversation is, I, you know, we see it on our, in our office on the, [00:53:50] on the urban planning to architecture side. There's a lot of benefit to having the, the different approaches, mental, mental, um, approaches to it.
[00:53:57] **Aaron:** And everybody sees things from a different [00:54:00] perspective. And I think that is a beneficial thing long term. And to his point about ai, I, I agree that that is, without us communicating, um, [00:54:10] maybe directly everything, the ability to be made, aware of progress made, aware of changes would be, is where I see some [00:54:20] change.
[00:54:20] **Steve:** I'll just come down and work outta your space, Aaron. Don't worry.
[00:54:22] **Aaron:** There we go. There we go. We'll find a desk for you.
[00:54:25] **Michael:** The biggest takeaway here is that successful architect-engineer collaboration comes down to [00:54:30] Aaron's simple rule: "communicate clearly and often," especially when scope changes. Most project disasters happen because someone didn't pick up the phone fast enough when things [00:54:40] shifted, leaving consultants working off old information while budgets spiral out of control. When your MEP team can see live project timelines and get [00:54:50] automatically notified when schedules change, you avoid those expensive coordination breakdowns that kill project profitability. Monograph makes this kind of real-time collaboration [00:55:00] automatic by giving consultants shared visibility into project milestones and deadlines, so everyone stays aligned when the inevitable scope changes happen. If this [00:55:10] episode helped you think differently about collaboration, share it with your team—they'll thank you for it.
[00:55:14] **Chris:** Thanks again, Jennifer, Steven, Aaron, and Robert. We had a lot of fun. Alright, [00:55:20] thank you.
[00:55:20] **Chris:** Thanks.
