Episode 68: Jackie Sofia (Documentary Photography)

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Welcome to 10 Frames Per Second, a podcast
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about photojournalism with
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photojournalists for everyone. Hosted by
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JM Giordano and Elena Volkova.
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Welcome back to 10 Frames Per Second. We
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took a few week hiatus, various travels,
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conferences, things, but now we're
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hopefully back on our regular schedule.
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It's almost Halloween, so hopefully we'll
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have a nice creepy guest next week. But
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anyway, our guest today is Jacqueline
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Sofia. She's a reporter, producer, and
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educator in documentary media. Her work
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focuses primarily on marginalized
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communities and underrepresented
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narratives in the Middle East and North
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America. Uh, she's produced a whole bunch
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of stuff for a bunch of people, I mean,
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including Monocle 24, News Deeply, NPR's
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Weekend Edition, WNYC On The Media, WHYY,
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the list goes on because she's incredible.
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Welcome to the show. You make me sound so
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much better than I feel sometimes. That's
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really nice. You can just put it on a
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loop. Every time you're down, no one will
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be like, listen to this. Yeah, like
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inspirational, like morning wake up. Yes.
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Yes. Cool. All right. So welcome to the
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show. Um, you know, we usually, Elena is
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here. Okay, I did voice something here.
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Okay, yes. So just, you know, you know the
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deal, just tell us a little bit about your
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background, how you got into documentary
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photography, and how you got interested in
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this, particularly in the Middle East
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programs that you work in, which we'll get
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into in a minute. Yeah, so I got into
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documentary photography kind of through a
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very circuitous route. I didn't go to
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school for it. I actually went to school
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here in Baltimore. I went to Hopkins for
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my undergrad and focused on Middle Eastern
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studies. I had more of just a
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very like intense curiosity in the Middle
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East, but I had never been there until I
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was accepted for a Fulbright Fellowship in
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2011 and traveled to Jordan. And while I
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was living in Jordan, I had the intention
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of doing a certain type of research that
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was more focused along the lines of women
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in Amman who were facing the kind
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of long-term effects of domestic violence,
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which is a pretty big issue in a lot of
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places, not just the Middle East,
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obviously. But along the way, I kind of
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bumped into a lot of different walls. It
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was really difficult to gain access to the
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information that I needed. And so I was
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kind of lost and a friend of mine actually
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who lived here in Baltimore said, oh, I
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know someone who just came back from her
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Fulbright in Jordan. She was working as a
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volunteer yoga instructor in this camp, a
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refugee camp there. And I had worked with
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resettled refugees here in Baltimore
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throughout college, so he thought that
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maybe I could connect with that community.
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And so I kind of took over her position as
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a yoga instructor for this group of women
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at this makeshift recreational center in
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the camp. And the camp is known as Gaza
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Camp in Jordan because all of the majority
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of people who live there are descendants
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or from the refugee community that fled
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Palestine in 1967 war, mostly from Gaza
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and surrounding areas. So I went,
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started volunteering once a week, then
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twice a week, and it turned into this
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whole thing where my Fulbright experience
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was really an experience of being part of
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this women's community in this camp. And
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I was initially working in social
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enterprise and doing some consulting work
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for nonprofits. I started a
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social enterprise soap company with
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several women in the camp, as well as
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another co-founder of mine. And that still
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exists, but along the way, we found it
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really difficult to talk to people about
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the Palestinian community in Jordan,
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specifically this community in Gaza Camp.
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And there's a lot of stereotypes around
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that community. They're quote-unquote
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lazy. They can't commit to anything.
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They... Stereotypes from whom? stereotypes
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within the larger Jordanian community. And
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there's always, I mean, you're going to
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see this in a lot of countries, right,
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including here, where you have a lot of
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nationalism, and you have a community that
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is not necessarily from here, at least not
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back two or three generations. As refugees
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there, they are stereotyped and
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a lot of times harshly criticized as
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something that they're not. It's a way for
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people to kind of show their own
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nationalism and show their own pride in
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their country in a really non-productive
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way. So that's really the way that
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that community, that refugee community has
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been treated for decades now, for almost
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50 years. And it was frustrating for us
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because we were trying to get people to
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understand that No, no, like these women
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are working really hard at what they're
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creating and what we're accomplishing as a
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social enterprise We have a great
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relationship with them. They're like
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family to us and Trying to reiterate that
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message over and over again and trying to
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get people to support what we were doing
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and what they were Doing with us was
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really difficult And for me, I realized
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that that message in a lot of ways could
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be manipulated and changed through media.
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So I eventually found myself wanting to
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tell their stories in a different way than
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what mainstream media within Jordan, in
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the Middle East, but globally also tells
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about the refugee community, Palestinian
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refugees, but also the global refugee
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community. And so I started
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photographing and I borrowed a friend's,
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you know, some friend's equipment there.
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They were photojournalists at the time.
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There were a lot of photojournalists there
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due to the, it was, this was like 2014. So
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Daesh or ISIS was,
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had a big presence near the border of
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Jordan. And so all these journalists were
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there. A few friends of mine were kind of
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interested in capturing that story. But I
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was like, oh, can I borrow your camera for
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a day and take some pictures for a social
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enterprise? So that's kind of where things
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took off for me when it came to
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photography. Mm-hmm. And was
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it dangerous being an American on top of
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being a female photojournalist? Talk a
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little bit about that experience being
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over there. I mean, because like you said,
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on the Jordanian border, it was pretty
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kind of nuts, right, with ISIS, which
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it'll be nuts again. Thanks to our
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president. Anyway, um, so yeah, if you,
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can you just, you know, just tell a little
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bit about your experience over there of
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being an American photojournalist at a
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pretty dicey time. Yeah. And just to
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clarify, I was, I was an American and I
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was a photographer, but I was, and my
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journalism was looking, was more so
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actually it started out in writing. So I
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was writing for this outlet there at the
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time and it still exists called WAMDA. And
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they focus more on entrepreneurship in the
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Middle East region. So I was doing more
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writing than photo for them. But the
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photography side of things was actually
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more geared towards the social enterprise
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and telling the stories of these women
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that we were working with. Right. But, you
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know, regardless, being there and being an
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American and a woman, it actually gave me
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a lot more insight and privilege into
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understanding the community that I was
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working with. I never felt unsafe,
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frankly. There are actually a lot of times
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where I'll feel more safe in Jordan than I
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will here in the United States. And I
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think that a lot of that has to do with
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Middle Eastern hospitality. The culture of
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hospitality there is very embedded in
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people. they will welcome you into their
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home regardless of who you are. They meet
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you and have a good five minute
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conversation with you and suddenly they're
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like, oh, come to my house and have dinner
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and meet my family and let's have coffee
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more and oh, you can sleep over the night
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if it's too late. So I never felt unsafe
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to be honest. I mean, the situation with
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ISIS and Daesh was, much further. It was
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still in the northern area where I was in
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the camp, but it was further north and
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there probably at some point was some
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presence in the area. There's a lot of
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security you would notice like more
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military personnel in the area and that
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sort of thing, but it didn't really affect
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me that much. Yeah. Can you talk a little
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bit more about this kind of, you mentioned
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that these communities are marginalized
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and they're stereotyped for something
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they're not. And I just can't help but
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think about, you know, any time this
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inflated sense of nationalism rises,
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there's always a community who suffers
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from that, right? So in your experience,
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what kind of struggles and obstacles
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do refugees, refugee communities face in
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Baltimore? So in Baltimore specifically, I
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think, and I'm only familiar really with
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Baltimore because this is where I've done
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work with resettled refugee communities,
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but Well, let me say the benefits of being
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resettled in Baltimore City. Cost of
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living is a lot lower than in a lot of
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other major cities in this country. So it
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is easier in that sense of it. You do have
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immigrant communities and resettled
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refugee communities that are probably a
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lot closer and tighter together
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physically. because you're in a city and
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people are living closer together.
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Transportation is a little bit easier if
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you don't have a car. That being said,
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public transportation here is still very
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unreliable and very difficult, especially
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if you don't speak the language. So, for
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example, right now I'm working with a
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woman, Iman El-Shehab, and she's Syrian.
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She was resettled here in 2016. And for
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her, it really is a daily exercise. It is
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a constant
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It's like an extra job you have to do
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every day to maneuver a city that you
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don't know and where you don't speak the
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language and a bus schedule that is never
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on time. I mean, those types of things,
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they seem very basic to us, but to people
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who are resettled, it's very complicated.
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Also, just being resettled here, once
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you're resettled, a lot of people don't
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know this, but you actually have to pay
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back all the money that was provided to
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you to get here to the United States. So
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when you have a plane ticket that's, you
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know, $1,000 from the Middle East or $900
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or whatever, you have to pay that back to
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the U.S. government or to the resettlement
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agency that has supported you to get here.
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And how long do you have to be paid? I'm
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not entirely sure of the payment schedule,
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but it's something along the lines of like
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three to six months. You don't have a lot
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of time to do that. You have to find a
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job, you have to... So how do they enforce
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that? I think we're on the same
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wavelength. Well, the enforcement of it,
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I'm sure, is through resettlement
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agencies. So, IOM, which is the
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International Organization for Migration,
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they're usually the primary point of
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contact for that type of thing. And their
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representatives will probably, you know,
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contact you in some form of either a phone
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call or come to your door and say, you
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know, you have this payment due. So things
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of that nature, but there's not a lot of
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structure in place for resettled refugees
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once they get here. So they're given maybe
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like a week long or two week long, like,
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integration, like bootcamp. It's like, all
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right, here's your apartment temporarily.
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Here's how you access the bus. Here's how
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you do this. And now we're off to help the
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next refugee get resettled. So it's
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really, there's really no like easing into
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it. Are there any volunteer organizations
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that either help financially or work with
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refugees, help them? Yeah, absolutely.
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There are a lot of nonprofits in Baltimore
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City. Baltimore City Community College
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provides something called the Refugee
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Youth Project. And that is actually the
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project that I used to volunteer for
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through college. They provide after school
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tutoring and support programming for
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refugee youth. in Baltimore City schools.
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There's also the, for women, there is now
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the Mira Kitchen Collective. So this is
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for women who have a background in cooking
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or, you know, for Iman, for example, she
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was a chef at the Four Seasons in Syria
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before she came to Jordan and then to the
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US. So she has a lot of experience. Mira
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Kitchen Collective provides opportunities
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for women to work and earn a living
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through their cooking. And they have a
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food truck. They do. They have a food
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truck. I don't, I think it's every
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Thursday. Uh, yeah. Can you tell me like
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where this food truck is please so I can
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go there? It's at Fat & Sonnen. Am I
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saying that right? Oh, yeah. I didn't
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know. Yeah, yeah. Fat & Sonnen. I didn't
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know that was there. I've been to that
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food truck before. The food's fantastic.
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So that truck is like rented out, I think,
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to different vendors. So Mira rents it
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out, I think, once a week or every other
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week. I'm not entirely, I can't confirm
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that yet. But you can check their
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Instagram page. They are active
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Instagrammers and you can always like
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follow them there. They'll announce all
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that stuff. But yeah, Iman will be there
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one week and then Anna and like other
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women will kind of take over and they
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circulate through. But yeah, and then
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there's also actually, there's this really
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amazing group that's come up through the
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Friends Meeting House at Stony Run, which
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is actually right up the street here. And
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it's kind of this, it's not as incredibly
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formalized group. It's really just a bunch
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of volunteers from the Friends community
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there who have come forward. They've
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actually, they're made up of these
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incredible women. One woman is a judge.
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The other one is a professor at
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Georgetown, I think. Zawadi, who is kind
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of, who kind of leads this group. She was
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a refugee herself, or sorry, I can't
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confirm if she was a refugee herself. She
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was an immigrant to this country, though,
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and she herself has a lot of experience
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acclimating to the culture here. So she as
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well has kind of led the pack on this. But
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they started providing English tutoring
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support to resettled refugees and asylum
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seekers here in Baltimore City. And at a
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certain point they realized these women
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can't learn English because they don't
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have the time to study because they have
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so many other issues that they're dealing
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with right now. Medical issues that they
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can't address because they can't
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communicate with the medical support or
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the medical staff at the hospital system
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here in Baltimore City. They have issues
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like they're in debt and they don't know
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how to pay off their debts because they
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don't know how to find work. So they've
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actually taken on this role as like this
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holistic support network for resettled
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refugees and asylum seekers in Baltimore
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city. And they actually, most recently
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they have provided support to a family to
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get them to a point where they were now
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able to purchase a home, which is a really
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big step because it's a homeowner that
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gives you a lot of agency, right? So
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that's really cool as well. What is that
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collective called? I don't know if they
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have a name actually. It's this volunteer
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group from Stony Run Meeting House, I
369
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would say is the best way to put it.
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That's pretty interesting. I mean, are
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you, are you working on any, I mean, these
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sound like, it's just like, I have a
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whiteboard in my hand. You're just like
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adding story. I mean, there's, are you,
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are you covering any of this stuff? I
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mean, cause you're here, you know, and I
377
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know you have to work and, and stuff, but
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I mean, just like, even like on a news
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coverage on like just a lack of, I mean,
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now, cause with, you know, all these
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draconian rules that the current
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administration is putting in against this
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prejudice against, Asylum seekers is you
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know, the racism against anyone that's not
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white I mean as far as like like news, I
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mean would this be a story you'd be
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00:18:24.648 --> 00:18:26.550
interested in covering? I think it's I
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00:18:26.570 --> 00:18:28.633
would love to see it like first, you know
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I'm actually, well, I'm working on a story
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at the moment. I am not a great spot news
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reporter. I will put that up front. The
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most spot news I've done is actually for a
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small local independent paper in
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Pennsylvania in the town where my parents
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live. And that's, it's an amazing paper,
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00:18:47.264 --> 00:18:48.845
by the way, Bucks County Herald. It's like
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one of the last remaining independent
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papers in the country. But aside from
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that, I haven't done a lot of spot news
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reporting because I get very attached to
401
00:19:01.734 --> 00:19:06.580
stories. So I still do and used to do
402
00:19:07.221 --> 00:19:10.746
a lot of radio. I worked on radio
403
00:19:10.786 --> 00:19:12.869
documentaries for a bunch of different
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00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:16.511
outlets. And that for me was very
405
00:19:16.551 --> 00:19:18.813
satisfying as well because you're diving
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00:19:18.853 --> 00:19:22.695
really deep into an issue. And when it
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00:19:22.755 --> 00:19:25.777
comes to stories that pertain to resettled
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00:19:25.797 --> 00:19:27.878
refugees, I think in particular it's
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00:19:27.938 --> 00:19:29.659
really important for us to be diving deep
410
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into that. There's so much coverage right
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now of Asylum seekers. It's really
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for me. It's frustrating because it's very
413
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much this crisis du jour approach It's
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like today there are a bunch of people who
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are being persecuted at the border of
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Mexico We need to cover this and I think
417
00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:52.711
that's great and it should be covered. I
418
00:19:53.191 --> 00:19:55.612
but it should be covered and then covered
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deeper, not let's cover this for a week
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and then something else happened and let's
421
00:20:00.354 --> 00:20:03.135
move on and not, you know, remember it and
422
00:20:03.236 --> 00:20:05.116
not figure out who these people are who
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00:20:05.156 --> 00:20:08.318
are being affected. So for me, I am
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00:20:08.358 --> 00:20:10.779
working on stories within the refugee
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00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:13.760
community here in Baltimore City. One in
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00:20:13.820 --> 00:20:18.802
particular is with a woman who I mentioned
427
00:20:18.842 --> 00:20:22.865
earlier, Iman El-Shehab. So her story has
428
00:20:22.985 --> 00:20:25.367
a lot of different elements to it. I've
429
00:20:25.387 --> 00:20:28.149
spent over a year with her now. We've been
430
00:20:28.229 --> 00:20:30.350
both here in Baltimore city, but also in
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00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:33.553
Jordan. She was able to travel to Jordan
432
00:20:33.593 --> 00:20:37.556
after receiving her green card. And so
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00:20:37.596 --> 00:20:40.378
that was really interesting and a new
434
00:20:40.438 --> 00:20:43.880
dimension of her life to observe and
435
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.762
document was being back in Jordan with her
436
00:20:46.823 --> 00:20:49.444
entire family who is still in exile there.
437
00:20:50.565 --> 00:20:52.207
She is the only member of her family
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00:20:52.267 --> 00:20:54.589
currently here in Baltimore City, and she
439
00:20:54.629 --> 00:20:58.578
lives alone. Is there, I looked at your
440
00:20:58.638 --> 00:21:00.859
essay and read the captions, and it seems
441
00:21:00.919 --> 00:21:03.701
like she was the only person from her
442
00:21:03.761 --> 00:21:07.443
family who was granted asylum, and why is
443
00:21:07.483 --> 00:21:10.245
that? Why, you know, you just assumed that
444
00:21:10.865 --> 00:21:13.847
there's some pretty significant stories
445
00:21:13.907 --> 00:21:17.129
behind the entire family, right? There is,
446
00:21:17.530 --> 00:21:20.412
absolutely. So how do these asylums are
447
00:21:20.432 --> 00:21:23.593
granted? You know, is there? Yeah, it's a,
448
00:21:23.814 --> 00:21:25.955
I mean, it's a long process. It's a pretty
449
00:21:26.015 --> 00:21:29.596
drawn out process. And, um, I won't go
450
00:21:29.636 --> 00:21:31.177
into too much detail about it, but
451
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essentially you have to apply for asylum
452
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in the country where you're finding
453
00:21:37.040 --> 00:21:40.642
refuge. So her family, Iman and her family
454
00:21:40.822 --> 00:21:43.243
found refuge in Jordan when violence broke
455
00:21:43.303 --> 00:21:45.324
out in Syria. A mortar fell through her
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00:21:45.364 --> 00:21:49.696
kitchen. Um, Her family was in danger. She
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00:21:49.736 --> 00:21:52.117
told her son to leave with his wife. They
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00:21:52.197 --> 00:21:54.438
left to Jordan and she followed soon
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thereafter. They applied for asylum
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here, or rather they applied for refugee
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00:22:02.661 --> 00:22:04.922
status in Jordan, which they were granted.
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And then they applied for resettlement in
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the U.S. And Iman was granted that
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resettlement. But now, because the rest of
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her family was not, she must kind of
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continue on through this journey of
467
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finding her own footing here, but then
468
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establishing herself to a point where
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hopefully someday soon she can help her
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family reapply. And because she settled
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here, they might be able to gain entry
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into the U.S. But that's a long process,
473
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and I don't know how many years that would
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ever take. That probably means that she
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needs to present enough evidence that she
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gains sufficient income to afford their
477
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health insurance, which is pretty much
478
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what it narrows down to. That's what it
479
00:22:52.716 --> 00:22:55.819
seems like. With the new regulations, I'm
480
00:22:55.959 --> 00:22:58.061
sure they've been set back probably a few
481
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years with the current regime and their
482
00:23:01.024 --> 00:23:04.647
new guidelines. But I have more of a
483
00:23:05.507 --> 00:23:08.689
photo, more of a journalist question. So
484
00:23:08.709 --> 00:23:12.490
I'm looking at the narrative projects, the
485
00:23:12.510 --> 00:23:13.931
things you're working on, and I'm
486
00:23:13.971 --> 00:23:16.892
wondering, how do these projects benefit
487
00:23:16.932 --> 00:23:19.835
the refugees? Like we can sit around and
488
00:23:20.075 --> 00:23:21.937
talk about cool projects all day right and
489
00:23:21.957 --> 00:23:23.879
be like, oh, this is a great story But how
490
00:23:23.899 --> 00:23:26.042
does how I mean this is this is not just
491
00:23:26.082 --> 00:23:27.824
your work But I mean if you know
492
00:23:27.864 --> 00:23:29.565
photojournalist and you you've been
493
00:23:29.606 --> 00:23:31.588
covering the refugee community So I think
494
00:23:31.608 --> 00:23:33.730
you could probably speak on it, but how
495
00:23:33.770 --> 00:23:38.080
does it benefit the subject, right? I So
496
00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:39.321
you're asking how does it benefit the
497
00:23:39.341 --> 00:23:41.362
subject and the photographer or just the
498
00:23:41.402 --> 00:23:42.382
subject? No, no, no, no, no, the subject,
499
00:23:42.422 --> 00:23:43.603
like all... So the person who's being
500
00:23:43.623 --> 00:23:44.823
photographed. Right, right, right. I mean,
501
00:23:45.524 --> 00:23:48.405
you know, all of these photographers want
502
00:23:48.445 --> 00:23:50.226
to cover like the refugee crisis, right?
503
00:23:50.246 --> 00:23:51.907
Oh, I see. But a lot of it is for, hey,
504
00:23:51.927 --> 00:23:54.368
that's a cool story or, hey, I hope I get
505
00:23:54.388 --> 00:23:55.929
a Pulitzer. You're not in any of these
506
00:23:55.969 --> 00:23:58.110
categories. But I mean, but I'm saying...
507
00:23:58.130 --> 00:23:59.851
We hope you get a Pulitzer. Yeah. But Joe
508
00:23:59.891 --> 00:24:02.232
didn't mean to say that. No, no, no,
509
00:24:02.272 --> 00:24:05.193
because you're obviously not... You're not
510
00:24:05.253 --> 00:24:07.154
in it for that. You could tell right away
511
00:24:07.174 --> 00:24:10.395
it's mostly a dude. Sorry. But who's
512
00:24:10.415 --> 00:24:14.457
always in it for the awards. What I meant
513
00:24:14.497 --> 00:24:15.997
was like gender-wise, it's always a dude.
514
00:24:16.057 --> 00:24:17.338
It's always like, oh, we get a Pulitzer
515
00:24:17.378 --> 00:24:22.260
for this. During the uprising, I
516
00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:24.721
talked to AP dudes. They were all about
517
00:24:24.761 --> 00:24:26.281
like, check it out. This is going to get
518
00:24:26.301 --> 00:24:27.902
an award. That's all they cared about was
519
00:24:27.922 --> 00:24:28.922
like, this is going to get an award.
520
00:24:29.062 --> 00:24:30.943
Really? Oh, that's interesting. I didn't
521
00:24:31.003 --> 00:24:33.644
actually know people talk like that. Oh
522
00:24:33.664 --> 00:24:35.586
my, we could talk about bro culture on
523
00:24:35.626 --> 00:24:38.389
another episode, but look. No, but really,
524
00:24:38.610 --> 00:24:41.112
so how do your subjects benefit from these
525
00:24:41.172 --> 00:24:43.675
projects? Yeah, so first let me just
526
00:24:43.715 --> 00:24:44.977
explain really briefly the narrative
527
00:24:45.017 --> 00:24:47.099
projects which you're referring to. It's a
528
00:24:47.219 --> 00:24:49.181
larger initiative that I developed
529
00:24:49.241 --> 00:24:51.944
alongside several women from the camp in
530
00:24:51.964 --> 00:24:56.126
Jordan. where we realized that the
531
00:24:56.166 --> 00:24:58.346
representation of the refugee community,
532
00:24:58.686 --> 00:25:00.186
not just Palestinians, but the global
533
00:25:00.226 --> 00:25:04.167
refugee community is very skewed and
534
00:25:05.587 --> 00:25:08.048
minute in a lot of ways, acute, I guess
535
00:25:08.068 --> 00:25:10.648
you would say, compared to the actual
536
00:25:10.708 --> 00:25:15.409
stories that exist and their perspective.
537
00:25:15.929 --> 00:25:20.010
So what we decided to do is create this
538
00:25:20.510 --> 00:25:25.413
platform that provides opportunities
539
00:25:25.593 --> 00:25:28.735
for people within the refugee community to
540
00:25:29.455 --> 00:25:31.676
be participants in documenting their own
541
00:25:31.736 --> 00:25:34.738
stories, right? So it's participatory
542
00:25:34.778 --> 00:25:39.181
media, essentially. My work with Iman is
543
00:25:39.501 --> 00:25:41.342
similar in that sense because she is
544
00:25:41.403 --> 00:25:43.364
participating in a lot of ways, which I
545
00:25:43.384 --> 00:25:47.046
can talk about at another time. With the
546
00:25:47.066 --> 00:25:49.227
women in the camp, we decided the first
547
00:25:49.407 --> 00:25:51.468
project within this larger initiative
548
00:25:51.508 --> 00:25:54.410
would be a photo workshop. I had a lot of
549
00:25:54.430 --> 00:25:56.071
women coming up to me throughout my time
550
00:25:56.111 --> 00:25:58.652
photographing in the camp asking, can you
551
00:25:58.672 --> 00:26:01.073
teach me how to take pictures? And they
552
00:26:01.113 --> 00:26:02.694
wanted to do it with a camera because
553
00:26:02.734 --> 00:26:05.115
everybody has a cell phone. It's not that
554
00:26:05.135 --> 00:26:07.056
they don't have access to a camera on
555
00:26:07.076 --> 00:26:09.898
their phone, but they just don't want to.
556
00:26:10.038 --> 00:26:13.120
They want to learn photography as as the
557
00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:15.822
form that it is, as this tool beyond just
558
00:26:15.862 --> 00:26:20.105
the camera. And so we formed this workshop
559
00:26:20.466 --> 00:26:23.348
and ended up actually running the first
560
00:26:23.388 --> 00:26:25.330
workshop this past winter. So it was a
561
00:26:25.390 --> 00:26:27.111
nine-week program, it was a nine-week
562
00:26:27.131 --> 00:26:30.094
workshop. There was five women enrolled.
563
00:26:30.714 --> 00:26:34.758
And the whole benefit behind it, right, is
564
00:26:34.838 --> 00:26:36.899
that, first of all, the women who are
565
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:39.342
doing the photographing, I mean, they are
566
00:26:39.362 --> 00:26:41.643
photographers, they're learning a tool
567
00:26:41.944 --> 00:26:45.226
that they can take with them and utilize
568
00:26:45.306 --> 00:26:47.868
to either document the stories around them
569
00:26:48.189 --> 00:26:50.951
as a means of, you know, ultimately
570
00:26:51.031 --> 00:26:53.012
publishing these stories and contributing
571
00:26:53.052 --> 00:26:55.014
to a more informed narrative of the
572
00:26:55.054 --> 00:26:58.458
refugee community. Or they can use it as a
573
00:26:58.518 --> 00:27:01.321
tool for themselves personally too. I had
574
00:27:01.421 --> 00:27:03.744
one woman in the class, Amna, who
575
00:27:04.285 --> 00:27:08.731
incredibly talented. She, throughout the
576
00:27:08.791 --> 00:27:11.434
whole course of the project, throughout
577
00:27:11.474 --> 00:27:13.457
the whole course of the workshop, decided
578
00:27:13.477 --> 00:27:16.460
to photograph her mother. Her mother had
579
00:27:16.600 --> 00:27:19.643
lost one of her legs due to deep vein
580
00:27:19.663 --> 00:27:23.287
thrombosis. And in the camp, I mean,
581
00:27:23.567 --> 00:27:27.732
health problems are so widespread due to
582
00:27:27.752 --> 00:27:29.614
the fact that people don't have access to
583
00:27:29.754 --> 00:27:32.856
adequate health care. But her mother lost
584
00:27:32.896 --> 00:27:35.038
her leg and so she was very housebound
585
00:27:35.098 --> 00:27:36.639
because the camp is completely
586
00:27:36.679 --> 00:27:39.481
inaccessible. I mean, there's maybe one
587
00:27:39.581 --> 00:27:41.982
ramp in the entire camp to a building
588
00:27:42.002 --> 00:27:44.104
that's like, the incline is like this,
589
00:27:45.105 --> 00:27:49.788
basically vertical. So her mom had this
590
00:27:51.109 --> 00:27:53.430
really close connection with Amina at the
591
00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:55.291
same time. Amina was her full-time
592
00:27:55.371 --> 00:27:58.773
caregiver. And so she decided to start
593
00:27:58.813 --> 00:28:02.114
documenting her mother as she went through
594
00:28:02.154 --> 00:28:05.335
this struggle of, you know, lack of
595
00:28:05.395 --> 00:28:07.815
accessibility, but also this real desire
596
00:28:07.915 --> 00:28:12.577
to get out of her house. And so she took
597
00:28:12.617 --> 00:28:14.837
pictures of her mother cooking. Sometimes
598
00:28:14.877 --> 00:28:16.458
her mother would like hold onto the
599
00:28:16.498 --> 00:28:18.338
counter and cook and Amina took pictures
600
00:28:18.378 --> 00:28:20.039
of that. She took these really beautiful
601
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:24.080
portraits. And this whole series of photos
602
00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:27.181
became this beautiful story. And for
603
00:28:27.341 --> 00:28:30.882
Amina, who had spent her whole
604
00:28:32.223 --> 00:28:35.504
early adulthood caring for her mother and
605
00:28:35.544 --> 00:28:38.204
being close to her mother, this was a real
606
00:28:39.045 --> 00:28:41.065
therapy for her in a lot of ways, right?
607
00:28:41.085 --> 00:28:44.466
It was something she also admitted that
608
00:28:44.546 --> 00:28:47.908
she had never talked about before. At the
609
00:28:47.968 --> 00:28:49.951
end of the workshop, the week before,
610
00:28:49.971 --> 00:28:54.335
Amina got a phone call and
611
00:28:54.956 --> 00:28:58.380
she had to leave class early. And we ended
612
00:28:58.520 --> 00:29:01.443
up, I ended up calling to check up on her
613
00:29:01.783 --> 00:29:04.206
and apparently her mother had been rushed
614
00:29:04.226 --> 00:29:08.608
to the hospital. And what ended up later
615
00:29:08.708 --> 00:29:11.369
finding out that her mother had died on
616
00:29:11.389 --> 00:29:13.889
the way to the hospital and she had been
617
00:29:13.929 --> 00:29:16.910
really sick. She had been brought to one
618
00:29:16.970 --> 00:29:19.551
hospital and this was the hospital that's
619
00:29:19.611 --> 00:29:21.412
close to the town in Jerash, which is
620
00:29:21.452 --> 00:29:25.734
where the camp is located. they provide
621
00:29:25.874 --> 00:29:28.096
the minimal amount of care to refugees
622
00:29:28.136 --> 00:29:31.098
from that community. And they told Amna,
623
00:29:31.138 --> 00:29:32.859
her mother just had the flu, which was
624
00:29:32.919 --> 00:29:35.201
obviously not true. She brought her mom
625
00:29:35.241 --> 00:29:38.123
back and then they went to, they tried to
626
00:29:38.163 --> 00:29:40.565
go to another hospital in the main city in
627
00:29:40.645 --> 00:29:43.287
Amman, but on the way her mother died in
628
00:29:43.467 --> 00:29:47.071
the car with her. And so, by the end of
629
00:29:47.111 --> 00:29:51.395
that workshop, it was something that she
630
00:29:51.535 --> 00:29:54.618
hadn't just, you know, she wasn't taking
631
00:29:54.678 --> 00:29:57.101
those photographs for the sake of, like,
632
00:29:57.261 --> 00:29:59.483
publishing a story. And those photographs
633
00:29:59.523 --> 00:30:02.986
may never get published anywhere. But for
634
00:30:03.046 --> 00:30:05.067
her, it was really important because it
635
00:30:05.107 --> 00:30:07.228
helped her process that connection with
636
00:30:07.268 --> 00:30:11.650
her mother. And ultimately, you know, she
637
00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:14.911
and I continued to talk about that. So I
638
00:30:15.011 --> 00:30:18.372
think that it goes both ways. And that's
639
00:30:18.412 --> 00:30:20.133
the great thing about this, right, is it's
640
00:30:20.173 --> 00:30:22.274
this exchange, it's this conversation now
641
00:30:22.334 --> 00:30:24.454
between the photographer and the person
642
00:30:24.474 --> 00:30:27.275
who's being photographed. and they're both
643
00:30:27.315 --> 00:30:29.636
part of the same community and they can
644
00:30:29.756 --> 00:30:31.396
express things to each other through
645
00:30:31.436 --> 00:30:35.478
photography that I could never possibly
646
00:30:36.398 --> 00:30:39.459
understand or express photographing
647
00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:44.020
someone from that community myself. That's
648
00:30:44.040 --> 00:30:48.124
very powerful. Yeah. Are there
649
00:30:48.764 --> 00:30:51.765
similar projects exist in Baltimore? So
650
00:30:52.305 --> 00:30:54.025
there are participatory media projects
651
00:30:54.065 --> 00:30:56.386
here in Baltimore City. I'm actually
652
00:30:56.446 --> 00:30:58.026
teaching a workshop right now, a photo
653
00:30:58.046 --> 00:31:00.667
workshop, with one of the nonprofits here.
654
00:31:00.687 --> 00:31:03.368
It's called Bridges, also a great
655
00:31:03.388 --> 00:31:05.228
nonprofit to check out. They provide
656
00:31:05.288 --> 00:31:07.109
year-round, long-term support to Baltimore
657
00:31:07.129 --> 00:31:10.450
City youth from grade school all the way
658
00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:13.611
through college. And so I'm working with
659
00:31:13.651 --> 00:31:17.353
them to implement a photo workshop,
660
00:31:17.393 --> 00:31:19.115
facilitate a workshop they have every
661
00:31:19.175 --> 00:31:21.156
Saturday, one Saturday a month with their
662
00:31:21.176 --> 00:31:23.957
high school students. But alongside that,
663
00:31:24.078 --> 00:31:25.939
there are some amazing programs here in
664
00:31:25.979 --> 00:31:28.000
the city. There's Wide Angle Youth Media.
665
00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:30.101
I'm sure you're familiar with them.
666
00:31:30.121 --> 00:31:33.938
Excellent, excellent organization. You
667
00:31:33.978 --> 00:31:35.639
know, I've only recently dug a little
668
00:31:35.679 --> 00:31:37.861
deeper into their work and they seem to
669
00:31:37.921 --> 00:31:41.763
have like they have their They have their
670
00:31:42.264 --> 00:31:43.765
stuff together This is a family program
671
00:31:51.149 --> 00:31:55.972
So, you know, they are amazing. And there
672
00:31:55.992 --> 00:31:57.913
are lots of individuals doing great work
673
00:31:57.953 --> 00:31:59.874
here in the community. I mean, Devin Allen
674
00:31:59.914 --> 00:32:02.815
has a lot of amazing work that he does
675
00:32:02.915 --> 00:32:05.176
with Baltimore City youth when it comes to
676
00:32:05.577 --> 00:32:07.298
giving them access to photography as a
677
00:32:07.358 --> 00:32:09.699
tool to express themselves and like
678
00:32:09.739 --> 00:32:12.340
process emotions and talk about, you know,
679
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.321
feelings, which is not something like, I
680
00:32:14.361 --> 00:32:15.882
don't think a lot of youth are encouraged
681
00:32:15.922 --> 00:32:19.207
to do in this city, but they should be. So
682
00:32:19.688 --> 00:32:21.152
yeah, those are just a couple that kind of
683
00:32:21.213 --> 00:32:25.101
stand out to me right off the bat. So
684
00:32:25.181 --> 00:32:27.363
getting back to what you're working on
685
00:32:27.443 --> 00:32:30.305
with the refugees here, I mean, is there a
686
00:32:30.365 --> 00:32:35.209
community that they can, I mean,
687
00:32:35.429 --> 00:32:37.791
I have in my neighborhood, I have a really
688
00:32:38.051 --> 00:32:39.773
good halal market that seems to have a lot
689
00:32:39.793 --> 00:32:44.256
of customers. I mean, is there a net
690
00:32:44.576 --> 00:32:47.239
for the people that settle here in
691
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.960
Baltimore or is that something that we
692
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:50.881
need to work on like a community center or
693
00:32:50.941 --> 00:32:53.758
something like that? I'm not familiar with
694
00:32:54.138 --> 00:32:58.582
a community center if it does exist. You
695
00:32:58.622 --> 00:33:01.064
know, I think that there is definitely,
696
00:33:01.244 --> 00:33:04.886
there are definitely informal networks of
697
00:33:05.727 --> 00:33:09.250
refugee, like informal refugee communities
698
00:33:09.310 --> 00:33:11.071
who have like created their own network
699
00:33:11.111 --> 00:33:14.693
and their own support system. but I think
700
00:33:14.733 --> 00:33:16.134
it's definitely something that needs to be
701
00:33:16.214 --> 00:33:19.656
worked on more because With Iman I have
702
00:33:19.737 --> 00:33:22.118
seen the lack of support, right? I have
703
00:33:22.138 --> 00:33:24.159
seen the lack of there There's not a
704
00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:26.601
formal system in place that should be
705
00:33:26.661 --> 00:33:29.703
there. It shouldn't be up to these
706
00:33:29.803 --> 00:33:33.865
individuals who are already just getting
707
00:33:33.945 --> 00:33:36.247
to this country and trying to figure it
708
00:33:36.427 --> 00:33:37.628
out and you know, figure out the
709
00:33:37.688 --> 00:33:39.429
day-to-day. It shouldn't be up to them to
710
00:33:39.489 --> 00:33:41.670
create that support system for themselves.
711
00:33:42.130 --> 00:33:46.053
It should be up to the local and regional
712
00:33:46.093 --> 00:33:49.515
governments who are, you know, saying, we
713
00:33:49.535 --> 00:33:51.896
welcome you here, which is great, but then
714
00:33:51.936 --> 00:33:54.098
you also need to take the second step
715
00:33:54.118 --> 00:33:56.239
there and say, and we're offering you a
716
00:33:57.420 --> 00:33:59.441
support system here that will help you get
717
00:33:59.641 --> 00:34:01.962
on your feet to become productive members
718
00:34:02.002 --> 00:34:03.243
of this community, because that's what
719
00:34:03.323 --> 00:34:05.664
everybody wants, right? Refugees don't
720
00:34:05.704 --> 00:34:07.445
come to this country and say, I just want
721
00:34:07.465 --> 00:34:10.026
to sit back and like, you know, eat
722
00:34:10.046 --> 00:34:11.906
cookies all day and like watch TV.
723
00:34:11.966 --> 00:34:15.367
According to Fox News, they do. You know,
724
00:34:15.387 --> 00:34:17.648
that's not the case at all, right? And we
725
00:34:17.708 --> 00:34:19.748
know that. I mean, Iman works sometimes
726
00:34:19.908 --> 00:34:22.149
six days a week. She works 12 hour shifts
727
00:34:22.189 --> 00:34:24.310
sometimes, which I've done with her. And I
728
00:34:24.350 --> 00:34:28.712
will tell you, It is hard. She's in her
729
00:34:28.732 --> 00:34:32.834
mid forties and she has to get a knee
730
00:34:32.874 --> 00:34:35.555
surgery sometime in the future, which I
731
00:34:35.615 --> 00:34:37.596
don't know if when that will happen, but
732
00:34:37.736 --> 00:34:39.557
she is pulling 12 hour shifts and I can
733
00:34:39.577 --> 00:34:43.019
barely make it with her. So, these are
734
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:45.020
people who are working hard. They're not
735
00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:47.381
taking this lightly. And so I think they
736
00:34:47.421 --> 00:34:49.062
deserve some sort of support system in
737
00:34:49.122 --> 00:34:51.323
return for trying to contribute so much to
738
00:34:52.223 --> 00:34:54.747
And the mental health, I can only imagine.
739
00:34:54.767 --> 00:34:57.612
Are there mental health services that are
740
00:34:57.652 --> 00:35:00.198
available to the refugees? Not
741
00:35:00.258 --> 00:35:04.361
immediately. And again, so the community
742
00:35:04.641 --> 00:35:07.863
network of women in the Friends Meeting
743
00:35:07.903 --> 00:35:10.264
House here, I know that they are working
744
00:35:10.484 --> 00:35:13.486
hard to provide some sort of mental health
745
00:35:13.526 --> 00:35:17.688
support for resettled refugees and asylum
746
00:35:17.708 --> 00:35:20.770
seekers here in Baltimore City. Outside of
747
00:35:20.830 --> 00:35:24.512
that, I'm not quite sure of any formal
748
00:35:25.133 --> 00:35:28.014
support system for that. I haven't seen
749
00:35:28.094 --> 00:35:31.696
it. And again, it needs to be made more
750
00:35:33.257 --> 00:35:35.458
available, more accessible to this
751
00:35:35.538 --> 00:35:39.960
community, because if it's not made
752
00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:42.641
apparent that it's there, they're not
753
00:35:42.661 --> 00:35:44.841
going to know where to go to find it. They
754
00:35:44.881 --> 00:35:47.102
may not even know what it is, right? We
755
00:35:47.142 --> 00:35:50.283
assumed that just because, you know, in
756
00:35:50.343 --> 00:35:52.984
our country, everybody knows, a lot of
757
00:35:53.024 --> 00:35:55.084
people go to therapy and, you know,
758
00:35:55.285 --> 00:35:59.586
recognize the power of mental health. But
759
00:35:59.786 --> 00:36:02.067
it's not the case in many places of the
760
00:36:02.107 --> 00:36:04.928
world. So I think I can only imagine that
761
00:36:04.968 --> 00:36:07.569
if you, I mean, I can't imagine because I
762
00:36:08.169 --> 00:36:10.029
immigrated to Baltimore in 94 and, you
763
00:36:10.049 --> 00:36:13.450
know, Very different story, of course.
764
00:36:14.891 --> 00:36:18.051
But yeah, if you're suffering from PTSD,
765
00:36:18.211 --> 00:36:21.232
how can you even wrap your mind about
766
00:36:21.652 --> 00:36:23.212
anything else? But is there, I mean,
767
00:36:23.913 --> 00:36:25.453
without naming it, but is there like a
768
00:36:25.513 --> 00:36:28.093
neighborhood, is there one area where a
769
00:36:28.113 --> 00:36:30.014
lot of, I mean, we have, the good thing
770
00:36:30.034 --> 00:36:31.514
about Baltimore is that we're a
771
00:36:31.554 --> 00:36:33.575
neighborhood city, right? Like no one
772
00:36:33.675 --> 00:36:37.257
lives downtown. Pros and cons, but I mean
773
00:36:37.297 --> 00:36:39.841
we do have like Latinx communities that
774
00:36:39.901 --> 00:36:43.285
are getting bigger I mean, so it's I think
775
00:36:43.305 --> 00:36:45.328
so. Is there a community that they you
776
00:36:45.348 --> 00:36:47.231
know, they're making their own kind of
777
00:36:47.271 --> 00:36:50.629
space here and Yeah. Um, so Highland town,
778
00:36:50.809 --> 00:36:54.433
actually that area has been majorly, uh,
779
00:36:55.534 --> 00:36:57.776
very welcoming to immigrant and refugee
780
00:36:57.816 --> 00:36:59.557
communities in Baltimore city and still
781
00:36:59.678 --> 00:37:03.701
is, uh, from, from my experience. Um, and
782
00:37:04.162 --> 00:37:06.284
it's interesting because food, food plays
783
00:37:06.324 --> 00:37:09.667
a huge role in that, uh, cultural like
784
00:37:09.867 --> 00:37:11.909
assimilation, but also the sharing of
785
00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:14.031
cultures and, breaking down those
786
00:37:14.071 --> 00:37:16.432
barriers. And so you'll notice in Highland
787
00:37:16.453 --> 00:37:17.934
Town, there are a lot of different markets
788
00:37:18.154 --> 00:37:22.217
that provide foods of different cultural
789
00:37:22.317 --> 00:37:25.459
origins. So like, you know, there's at the
790
00:37:25.499 --> 00:37:28.382
markets at Highland Town, they have a lot
791
00:37:28.442 --> 00:37:32.026
of like Arab foods, Arab food brands. They
792
00:37:32.066 --> 00:37:34.388
have a lot of like Hispanic food brands,
793
00:37:34.428 --> 00:37:37.592
Latinx food brands and like, I think they
794
00:37:37.632 --> 00:37:41.536
have some Korean food brands there. So you
795
00:37:41.577 --> 00:37:43.819
can find a lot of those foods there. We
796
00:37:43.859 --> 00:37:45.401
went there one day actually and went
797
00:37:45.421 --> 00:37:47.243
grocery shopping there just to like find
798
00:37:47.263 --> 00:37:49.025
some ingredients for this one dish we made
799
00:37:49.085 --> 00:37:50.486
and it was like, Oh my gosh, I feel like
800
00:37:50.506 --> 00:37:52.207
I'm back in Jordan. Like, it was really
801
00:37:52.247 --> 00:37:55.108
cool. Really? Yeah, yeah. Nice. All
802
00:37:55.128 --> 00:37:56.789
together. Yeah. And there was a one woman
803
00:37:56.809 --> 00:37:59.370
in the market who actually, she was
804
00:37:59.450 --> 00:38:04.331
speaking Arabic to her husband. And I
805
00:38:04.411 --> 00:38:05.472
actually went up to her cause we were
806
00:38:05.492 --> 00:38:09.013
looking for the spice. And I said, oh, do
807
00:38:09.033 --> 00:38:11.094
you know where the Zatar is? And she was
808
00:38:11.134 --> 00:38:12.995
like, oh yeah. And she like took us over
809
00:38:13.035 --> 00:38:14.395
there. And then later she was like, you
810
00:38:14.415 --> 00:38:15.596
know what? You won't find everything at
811
00:38:15.636 --> 00:38:17.676
this market, but let me take you to this
812
00:38:17.756 --> 00:38:20.158
other market, the cuckoo market. And so we
813
00:38:20.178 --> 00:38:21.719
went to this other market in Highland
814
00:38:21.739 --> 00:38:26.284
Town. And so it was just like, it
815
00:38:27.045 --> 00:38:30.148
was really, it was really, you know,
816
00:38:30.528 --> 00:38:32.090
obviously this woman was just like
817
00:38:32.190 --> 00:38:34.152
interested in helping us no matter what.
818
00:38:34.312 --> 00:38:36.795
And so you have that community for sure.
819
00:38:36.835 --> 00:38:39.477
I'm sure like it informally exists there
820
00:38:39.518 --> 00:38:42.864
very well. Yeah. Good. Jackie, doing all
821
00:38:42.884 --> 00:38:44.966
these projects, when did you start doing
822
00:38:45.006 --> 00:38:48.350
photography and covering stories? I mean,
823
00:38:49.312 --> 00:38:52.716
I started taking pictures probably like, I
824
00:38:52.756 --> 00:38:53.977
don't know, like everybody does when
825
00:38:53.997 --> 00:38:55.760
they're like probably a teenager, like,
826
00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:57.442
you know, adolescent, you want to just
827
00:38:57.562 --> 00:38:59.304
take pictures of yourself and your friends
828
00:38:59.344 --> 00:39:01.246
like on field trips and stuff like that. I
829
00:39:01.286 --> 00:39:04.488
don't know. But I really started taking
830
00:39:04.528 --> 00:39:06.928
pictures in Jordan. It was where I really
831
00:39:07.008 --> 00:39:08.709
picked up a camera and started learning
832
00:39:08.749 --> 00:39:13.390
how to use it effectively, I think. So
833
00:39:13.430 --> 00:39:16.571
that was 2014. So it's been a few years
834
00:39:16.631 --> 00:39:21.093
now. But you know, photography for me is
835
00:39:21.133 --> 00:39:24.033
just one tool. And it's a really important
836
00:39:24.073 --> 00:39:26.714
tool. But honestly, it's not the only tool
837
00:39:26.754 --> 00:39:28.915
in my toolbox, if that's what you want to
838
00:39:28.935 --> 00:39:32.918
say. Radio has, audio has been really
839
00:39:32.978 --> 00:39:34.779
important for me as well in terms of
840
00:39:34.819 --> 00:39:38.462
storytelling. And with Iman, for example,
841
00:39:38.522 --> 00:39:41.225
we're working on a lot of different media
842
00:39:41.245 --> 00:39:45.488
to create a way to tell her story and to
843
00:39:45.548 --> 00:39:48.150
help her be a part of that storytelling
844
00:39:48.270 --> 00:39:51.037
process. And where did these stories
845
00:39:51.077 --> 00:39:54.659
exist? So they currently exist, or at
846
00:39:54.699 --> 00:39:56.740
least part of them exist on my website. So
847
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:01.522
you can go chacklenmsophia.com. Also
848
00:40:01.722 --> 00:40:03.963
on the narrative projects website, it is
849
00:40:04.123 --> 00:40:06.224
as it sounds, the narrative projects,
850
00:40:06.404 --> 00:40:09.426
that's with an S at the end, .com. And
851
00:40:09.466 --> 00:40:10.926
that's where you'll find some of the work
852
00:40:10.966 --> 00:40:13.688
by students from the workshop in Jordan.
853
00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:16.989
So that's where they're living at the
854
00:40:17.049 --> 00:40:20.051
moment. What is your hope for them? Where
855
00:40:20.091 --> 00:40:22.373
would you like to see this? Yeah, you
856
00:40:22.413 --> 00:40:24.354
know, I would love to see them in
857
00:40:24.434 --> 00:40:26.856
classrooms, frankly, classrooms and in
858
00:40:27.376 --> 00:40:29.217
mainstream media. I'd like to see the work
859
00:40:29.317 --> 00:40:31.599
from the narrative projects that the work
860
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:34.981
of these women be more representative, be
861
00:40:35.021 --> 00:40:37.843
more representative of the global refugee
862
00:40:37.863 --> 00:40:40.145
community and mainstream media. I think
863
00:40:40.185 --> 00:40:42.466
that's that's like the primary goal at the
864
00:40:42.486 --> 00:40:44.948
end of the day is for them to have the
865
00:40:45.048 --> 00:40:48.908
agency to tell their own stories. I mean,
866
00:40:48.949 --> 00:40:51.031
I know one teacher that would love to have
867
00:40:51.051 --> 00:40:52.612
you come in and discuss the narrative
868
00:40:52.652 --> 00:40:54.494
project with her students. I would love to
869
00:40:54.514 --> 00:40:56.256
talk to those teachers, yeah. Two
870
00:40:56.296 --> 00:40:58.178
teachers? Well, I'm only speaking for
871
00:40:58.218 --> 00:41:01.301
myself. I can't speak for you, Alina. I'm
872
00:41:01.341 --> 00:41:02.542
not going to assume. You might be like,
873
00:41:02.562 --> 00:41:04.484
yeah, projects. I don't know where this is
874
00:41:04.504 --> 00:41:06.646
going, Jackie. But I had a question about
875
00:41:07.006 --> 00:41:08.808
what did you learn about yourself? Where
876
00:41:08.848 --> 00:41:12.399
has this project taken you personally? Oh,
877
00:41:13.799 --> 00:41:17.120
you know, I think this past winter was
878
00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:20.542
probably the most impactful time for me.
879
00:41:21.582 --> 00:41:23.003
When I was in Jordan, I was there
880
00:41:23.363 --> 00:41:26.884
simultaneously working on the workshop, as
881
00:41:26.944 --> 00:41:28.925
well as with Iman, because she was there
882
00:41:28.945 --> 00:41:32.967
visiting her family. And for me, that was
883
00:41:34.635 --> 00:41:39.277
you just realize how important it is to be
884
00:41:39.377 --> 00:41:43.158
able to tell your own story and for people
885
00:41:43.178 --> 00:41:45.819
to listen to that. And it makes such a
886
00:41:45.879 --> 00:41:49.280
huge difference because
887
00:41:50.881 --> 00:41:52.982
you have the opportunity to shape the way
888
00:41:53.022 --> 00:41:57.303
people see you every day. And we really
889
00:41:57.364 --> 00:41:59.124
take that for granted, I think, a lot of
890
00:41:59.164 --> 00:42:02.186
ways here in the West. we take for granted
891
00:42:02.226 --> 00:42:03.887
the fact that we can just like post a
892
00:42:03.948 --> 00:42:08.232
photo on Instagram. And I mean, as
893
00:42:08.272 --> 00:42:12.476
opposed to these women, like posting a
894
00:42:12.516 --> 00:42:14.618
photo on Instagram means like putting up
895
00:42:14.678 --> 00:42:16.600
this message about like something that's
896
00:42:16.720 --> 00:42:19.883
really important to them and really
897
00:42:19.923 --> 00:42:21.264
important to not just them, but their
898
00:42:21.304 --> 00:42:22.766
communities, whether it's like the
899
00:42:22.786 --> 00:42:24.547
Palestinian refugee community or the
900
00:42:24.607 --> 00:42:28.071
Syrian refugee community. it holds so much
901
00:42:28.151 --> 00:42:32.155
weight for them. So for me it just kind of
902
00:42:32.195 --> 00:42:34.517
made me much more aware of that and the
903
00:42:35.839 --> 00:42:39.382
feeling of privilege to to be let into
904
00:42:39.663 --> 00:42:42.445
these people's lives so deeply. Like I met
905
00:42:42.525 --> 00:42:47.410
all of Iman's family. I I
906
00:42:47.450 --> 00:42:49.130
got like incredibly close with all the
907
00:42:49.191 --> 00:42:53.051
women in my class. And that's just, that's
908
00:42:53.091 --> 00:42:55.932
priceless. Like that's, that's amazing.
909
00:42:56.192 --> 00:43:00.273
Yeah. Thank you. That's great.
910
00:43:01.233 --> 00:43:02.914
I just said, it's something that lingers
911
00:43:02.954 --> 00:43:06.075
on my mind also in terms of racism and
912
00:43:06.115 --> 00:43:08.935
maybe chauvinism and, you know, like just
913
00:43:08.995 --> 00:43:11.996
hostility towards the other. That sense,
914
00:43:12.036 --> 00:43:13.936
you describe your experience of this
915
00:43:13.996 --> 00:43:18.298
Palestinian community in Jordan. I just
916
00:43:18.318 --> 00:43:21.000
have to say, like in my community of like
917
00:43:21.301 --> 00:43:23.642
immigrants from former Soviet Union,
918
00:43:23.982 --> 00:43:26.524
definitely, you know, witness a lot of
919
00:43:26.544 --> 00:43:29.086
kind of hostility towards cultures they
920
00:43:29.106 --> 00:43:32.588
don't understand. But I wonder, like, is
921
00:43:32.749 --> 00:43:35.210
how deeply rooted is that? I always find
922
00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:37.592
that, you know, it's before you have that
923
00:43:37.632 --> 00:43:40.634
first conversation with somebody and then
924
00:43:40.654 --> 00:43:42.395
you're like, oh yeah, he's, you know, he's
925
00:43:42.435 --> 00:43:45.799
okay, she's okay. It's really not rooted
926
00:43:45.919 --> 00:43:48.902
deeply into belief that this culture
927
00:43:48.942 --> 00:43:52.406
should be hated. It's more about this not
928
00:43:52.446 --> 00:43:55.790
understanding that doesn't really go
929
00:43:55.850 --> 00:43:58.293
beyond, once you get to know somebody,
930
00:43:58.753 --> 00:44:00.155
have a brief conversation, you're like,
931
00:44:00.355 --> 00:44:01.555
oh, you're my brother, you know, like.
932
00:44:01.575 --> 00:44:03.956
That's really all it is. Yeah, I mean, it
933
00:44:04.516 --> 00:44:06.356
really doesn't take that much. And I think
934
00:44:06.396 --> 00:44:09.837
that's the other important message here is
935
00:44:10.177 --> 00:44:12.557
the saying, it does hold true in a lot of
936
00:44:12.597 --> 00:44:14.257
ways. Like one photograph really can make
937
00:44:14.297 --> 00:44:16.398
a difference because, you know, you see a
938
00:44:16.458 --> 00:44:20.478
picture of, you know, a woman in the camp
939
00:44:20.538 --> 00:44:22.579
who's like cradling her daughter in her
940
00:44:22.799 --> 00:44:26.339
arms, who, you know, there's that love
941
00:44:26.379 --> 00:44:27.760
there that you see between a mother and a
942
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:29.540
daughter. And you're like, oh, I love my
943
00:44:29.560 --> 00:44:31.721
daughter. Or, oh, I love my sister like
944
00:44:31.761 --> 00:44:34.562
that. And I think in the same way when it
945
00:44:34.602 --> 00:44:36.783
comes to conversations, you have that
946
00:44:36.823 --> 00:44:39.104
first conversation with someone and
947
00:44:39.665 --> 00:44:42.086
they're just a human being like you and me
948
00:44:42.326 --> 00:44:45.167
and everybody else in this room. So I
949
00:44:45.267 --> 00:44:48.889
think it doesn't take much for sure. But I
950
00:44:48.949 --> 00:44:50.830
think that people do need to just take
951
00:44:50.870 --> 00:44:52.471
that first step and there's a lot of fear
952
00:44:52.551 --> 00:44:54.211
behind taking that first step for some
953
00:44:54.252 --> 00:44:57.315
reason. These issues become political
954
00:44:57.395 --> 00:45:01.341
tools. And when that happens, that first
955
00:45:01.401 --> 00:45:04.144
step seems a lot larger than it actually
956
00:45:04.285 --> 00:45:07.249
is. All right, well, that's a good way to
957
00:45:08.230 --> 00:45:10.513
end it. We have a couple questions for
958
00:45:10.533 --> 00:45:12.056
you. Elena, do you want to? Three. Three.
959
00:45:13.668 --> 00:45:16.090
Okay, Jackie, we have, it's, they're more
960
00:45:16.130 --> 00:45:19.172
like fill in the blank. Okay. Okay, here
961
00:45:19.192 --> 00:45:22.254
we go. Three rapid fire questions. Ready.
962
00:45:22.614 --> 00:45:25.156
Photography is primarily a tool for
963
00:45:26.256 --> 00:45:29.879
everyone. When I look at an image, I look
964
00:45:29.919 --> 00:45:33.521
for something different. Photographer is
965
00:45:33.581 --> 00:45:38.530
responsible for digging deeper. Thank
966
00:45:38.570 --> 00:45:41.414
you. Thank you. Great. Awesome. So, Izzy,
967
00:45:41.875 --> 00:45:43.237
we wrap it up with anything you're,
968
00:45:43.577 --> 00:45:45.280
anybody you're following on Instagram, you
969
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:47.543
mentioned a couple. On the Grams. Yeah,
970
00:45:47.663 --> 00:45:49.105
anyone you want to plug, any books you're
971
00:45:49.145 --> 00:45:51.388
reading. We don't really do like, we can't
972
00:45:51.568 --> 00:45:53.030
do endorsements, but you know, anything
973
00:45:53.071 --> 00:45:55.593
you're up to. One book I've been dying to
974
00:45:55.653 --> 00:45:57.415
read, but it's on our shelf too and I
975
00:45:57.495 --> 00:45:59.096
haven't actually picked it up, is The
976
00:45:59.236 --> 00:46:01.078
Aftermath Project, 10 years of The
977
00:46:01.178 --> 00:46:04.501
Aftermath Projects. Sarah Terry is the
978
00:46:04.641 --> 00:46:09.165
editor and it's, the message behind it is
979
00:46:09.265 --> 00:46:11.467
really along, a lot of along the lines of
980
00:46:11.507 --> 00:46:13.509
what I tried to do with the narrative
981
00:46:13.549 --> 00:46:16.091
projects, which is like, showing the
982
00:46:16.211 --> 00:46:18.913
stories of, you know, what happens to a
983
00:46:18.973 --> 00:46:21.054
community long after like the initial
984
00:46:21.134 --> 00:46:26.057
quote unquote war is finished. So that's
985
00:46:26.117 --> 00:46:27.418
a book that I've been dying to look at,
986
00:46:27.478 --> 00:46:28.859
just haven't got a chance to pick it up.
987
00:46:30.720 --> 00:46:34.283
Another, well, on Instagram,
988
00:46:36.244 --> 00:46:40.507
I follow my fiance, so, at Everyday
989
00:46:40.547 --> 00:46:44.609
Disabled and also Nolan, What is your
990
00:46:44.649 --> 00:46:46.430
candle? Wait, wait, wait. First of all,
991
00:46:46.450 --> 00:46:49.572
fiance. Yeah, we're engaged.
992
00:46:49.652 --> 00:46:53.874
Congratulations. Oh, thanks. You can cut
993
00:46:53.914 --> 00:46:56.475
that out if you want to. I mean, no one's
994
00:46:56.496 --> 00:46:58.537
been a guest on our program before. So,
995
00:46:58.557 --> 00:47:00.678
you guys met. We should have said. We met
996
00:47:00.738 --> 00:47:04.179
the day of that program recording. You're
997
00:47:04.259 --> 00:47:09.001
on. I don't know what to say.
998
00:47:09.021 --> 00:47:11.682
There's Nolan. Yeah, it's easy, everyone.
999
00:47:12.143 --> 00:47:14.644
Yeah, was it at Nolan Ryantrow? It's just
1000
00:47:14.704 --> 00:47:17.206
NolanTrow. It's just NolanTrow. But yeah,
1001
00:47:17.986 --> 00:47:19.947
we met pretty much on this program, which
1002
00:47:20.048 --> 00:47:21.608
is pretty cool. Yeah, I was sitting in
1003
00:47:21.629 --> 00:47:25.191
that corner right there. See, our first
1004
00:47:25.251 --> 00:47:27.312
matchmaking. This is some viral material
1005
00:47:27.392 --> 00:47:31.775
right there. So what are you, yeah, go
1006
00:47:31.795 --> 00:47:34.416
ahead. I mean, so what are you reading,
1007
00:47:34.917 --> 00:47:37.498
Nolan? I know you guys got like, little
1008
00:47:37.518 --> 00:47:39.439
book collection started, so what are you
1009
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:43.822
up to? I'm not reading a whole lot right
1010
00:47:43.882 --> 00:47:47.725
now. I'm kind of burnt out on a lot of
1011
00:47:47.765 --> 00:47:51.708
stuff, like in the photo community. Maybe
1012
00:47:51.728 --> 00:47:53.729
we'll have you back to talk about that. I
1013
00:47:53.769 --> 00:47:56.451
feel you. Actually, you know what, I
1014
00:47:56.471 --> 00:47:58.132
think, and I'm going to say this right
1015
00:47:58.152 --> 00:48:01.093
here, I think that's a great topic is
1016
00:48:01.153 --> 00:48:02.914
burnout. And I think we need to discuss
1017
00:48:02.934 --> 00:48:05.014
that. I really, we have- Burnout in all
1018
00:48:05.054 --> 00:48:08.195
ways, I think. So kind of along that line,
1019
00:48:08.235 --> 00:48:09.695
but parallel, I am reading a lot of
1020
00:48:09.735 --> 00:48:11.795
cookbooks lately. Okay, that's cool. And
1021
00:48:11.915 --> 00:48:13.556
part of it has to do with the project I'm
1022
00:48:13.576 --> 00:48:17.937
working on with Iman, but I'm working as a
1023
00:48:18.277 --> 00:48:21.037
line cook part-time here in Baltimore to
1024
00:48:21.077 --> 00:48:23.558
kind of do some more field research for
1025
00:48:23.598 --> 00:48:26.040
this project. And I've been really
1026
00:48:26.060 --> 00:48:28.983
interested in cooking and like, that's
1027
00:48:29.043 --> 00:48:32.606
what I've been doing. Part time. So, you
1028
00:48:32.947 --> 00:48:35.249
know, Woodbury Kitchen? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1029
00:48:35.269 --> 00:48:38.292
You'll find me at the salads. Right. You
1030
00:48:38.312 --> 00:48:39.894
won't find me there. My credit rating's
1031
00:48:39.914 --> 00:48:41.075
not high enough to eat there. They're
1032
00:48:41.476 --> 00:48:43.057
always like, oh, sorry, 350. Can't let you
1033
00:48:43.137 --> 00:48:46.159
in. Don't worry, neither is mine, but
1034
00:48:46.279 --> 00:48:47.700
they'd let you on staff if that's the
1035
00:48:47.720 --> 00:48:49.361
case. I can't afford to get there. You can
1036
00:48:49.381 --> 00:48:50.342
work with me. It's a very nice upscale
1037
00:48:50.362 --> 00:48:51.763
restaurant that you must try if you're in
1038
00:48:51.803 --> 00:48:53.704
Baltimore. Very locally. Yes, anyway, pull
1039
00:48:53.744 --> 00:48:55.205
this back, because you have to leave. Yes.
1040
00:48:55.365 --> 00:48:56.626
Elena, you've got to roll. What are you? I
1041
00:48:56.646 --> 00:48:58.067
saw you earlier. I want to do a plug of
1042
00:48:58.267 --> 00:49:00.849
our Michelle Bogre, who we had as a guest.
1043
00:49:01.349 --> 00:49:06.053
She's a professor at Parsons, and she's a
1044
00:49:06.973 --> 00:49:08.774
writer. She writes about documentary
1045
00:49:08.794 --> 00:49:11.316
photography. Her new book is coming out,
1046
00:49:11.977 --> 00:49:15.479
is it October 17th? It's out. It's out. So
1047
00:49:15.899 --> 00:49:17.680
it's called Documentary Photography
1048
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:19.621
Reconsidered, History, Theory, and
1049
00:49:19.702 --> 00:49:21.122
Practice. It's a great interview, I'll
1050
00:49:21.142 --> 00:49:23.904
repost it. Yeah, it's a follow-up on her
1051
00:49:23.964 --> 00:49:28.587
book, Photography as Activism. It's a
1052
00:49:28.647 --> 00:49:32.570
very good episode. I do want to plug
1053
00:49:32.750 --> 00:49:35.251
author Julian Hacking's book, Photography,
1054
00:49:35.271 --> 00:49:38.514
the Whole Story. which is a textbook that
1055
00:49:38.835 --> 00:49:42.078
I got from, well, I was kind of turned on
1056
00:49:42.118 --> 00:49:44.641
to by a former intern, Marie. She's a
1057
00:49:44.661 --> 00:49:46.423
student at UMBC, University of Maryland,
1058
00:49:46.443 --> 00:49:48.605
Baltimore County. And it's their photo
1059
00:49:48.625 --> 00:49:51.869
textbook and it was published in 2017. It
1060
00:49:52.469 --> 00:49:54.331
is a fantastic textbook. It is a
1061
00:49:54.391 --> 00:49:56.093
completely rethinking of the history of
1062
00:49:56.113 --> 00:49:58.875
photography. And it's illustrated well. It
1063
00:49:59.755 --> 00:50:02.316
has a picture and pulls different things
1064
00:50:02.356 --> 00:50:04.297
to look at in the picture, you know, for
1065
00:50:04.317 --> 00:50:06.117
students. It's a very, very good book.
1066
00:50:06.478 --> 00:50:07.998
It's called Photography, The Whole Story.
1067
00:50:08.018 --> 00:50:09.579
And I might actually try to get her on
1068
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:11.579
here because I'm just in love with this
1069
00:50:11.619 --> 00:50:13.940
book. Like she did a bang up job, like
1070
00:50:14.060 --> 00:50:17.121
with just kind of rethinking photo
1071
00:50:17.162 --> 00:50:19.522
history, which is what we need. So not so
1072
00:50:19.542 --> 00:50:21.143
many white bearded men at the beginning,
1073
00:50:21.303 --> 00:50:23.444
you know, like trying to like kind of get
1074
00:50:23.484 --> 00:50:25.825
us to rethink that. So anyway, so thank
1075
00:50:25.845 --> 00:50:27.486
you for being on. Thank you for having me.
1076
00:50:27.626 --> 00:50:30.248
No problem. This is amazing. I feel
1077
00:50:30.288 --> 00:50:31.469
honored. Thanks for chiming in there,
1078
00:50:31.509 --> 00:50:33.891
Nolan, real quick. We will have you back
1079
00:50:33.911 --> 00:50:35.292
on to talk about burnout. I think it's a
1080
00:50:35.332 --> 00:50:37.673
really important thing. All right, guys.
1081
00:50:37.693 --> 00:50:38.834
Thank you, Jackie. Thanks a lot. Thank
1082
00:50:40.115 --> 00:50:40.375
you.
1083
00:50:49.302 --> 00:50:50.906
This has been 10 Frames Per Second,
1084
00:50:51.608 --> 00:50:53.994
recorded at WLOY Radio at Loyola
1085
00:50:54.054 --> 00:50:56.520
University, Maryland. Produced by Audrey
1086
00:50:56.540 --> 00:50:57.703
Gatewood and John Devecka.