Superman Roundtable

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Worrying. Today's episode contains spoilers for Superman currently in theaters. Hello, my name is Jason Concepcion and I'm rosday Night, and welcome back to x Ravay of the podcast where we dive the bit to your favorite shows, movies, comments, and pop culture company Over my our podcast Where Were We You? Episodes every Tuesday and Thursday, plus highlighting the summer's biggest movies every Friday, and news on Saturday.
00:00:42
Speaker 2: In today's episode, we have gathered the Justice Gang and Planetwatch. Depends who's on which side we will see, we'll see it's Superman and the Justice Gang talking Superman and will we talking about why we think the DC universe could head next Well, our super producers thought of the movie and guys, no episode on Thursday, but we will be back on Friday for our newest popcorn pop out, talking about probably the phenomenon of the summer so far K Pop Demon Hunters on Netflix. And then we'll be bringing you some fun and fresh updates from Comic Con and I can't believe it's almost here, guys. But first.
00:01:27
Speaker 1: Our Superan Roundtable. Let's welcome in the roundtable participants, our super producer crew Joel, how are you.
00:01:37
Speaker 3: I'm here for Justice Gang, but I would like us to have a new name.
00:01:41
Speaker 2: He said, It's not the Justice Gang. Babe.
00:01:44
Speaker 3: Carmen, good morning.
00:01:45
Speaker 4: How are you doing well? Thanks for having me.
00:01:50
Speaker 2: Aaron, Aaron, how you do him?
00:01:53
Speaker 5: I'm so excited to talk about that little men in Black alien guy who was working in the jail in the zero dimension. I can't wait for all of our theories on that character.
00:02:02
Speaker 2: Bro't don't gus tempt it. You're gonna close.
00:02:08
Speaker 1: Okay, First, let's Superman. First of all, is a huge hit, a massive hit. We should recognize that.
00:02:19
Speaker 2: Good job.
00:02:20
Speaker 1: Good job Superman, Good job, Warner Brothers. Congratulations, David Zaslav, you did it, my guy.
00:02:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, good job. Guys. We like you did it. You did a good job.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: Look what are our quick headline reactions to this film? Let's start with you Erin.
00:02:41
Speaker 5: I thought it was really good. I think I wound up probably like a seven or eight out of ten. I think that this is a really fun movie. I had a great time the whole time. I had some issues with it, small things, but like I walked in not sure what to expect. I was not sold on corn sweat before and I walked out of it saying, like, the casting of this movie incredible and everyone overperformed. Everyone overperformed. So yeah, I thought it was very good, seven or eight out of ten.
00:03:13
Speaker 4: Carmen, Yeah, I think the casting was amazing. To Aaron's point, but the first thing I said when the movie was over, and I did Texas to the group chat as well, but I said that I was very proud that Bimbo's had saved the day. And there are some you know, we do have some criticisms on that later, but it gave me somebody relate to relate to, and I enjoyed it. I gave it a nine out of ten, and that's because I think largely like my cinema experience played a big part in that. I was in the third row. I was literally looking up at the screen. There were kids in the rows behind me, like every time Crypto was on screen. It was such a cute moment in the theater. So love that. I'm saying it again tonight and we'll see a Leicester last.
00:04:09
Speaker 3: Yes, I've seen it twice. At the third time, I've seen it twice, I've got tickets to see it at the third time. I love this movie. I believe a man can fly, and I believe superhero movies are gonna keep being around for decades to come. Y'all, we are not going anywhere. There's so much to say about this movie, but for the quickest behind the scenes Warner Brothers has said, sinners f one companion this movie. It all the way to the Bay after after the loss of Joker too, which was people wondering if Warner Bros. Could ever recover as a studio afterwards. To go from that to this a space that gives us a really hopeful feature for DC comic books on screen. I think it's it's a fantastic turn around. I guess as zero points. Congratulations to all the producers and creatives who made this happen.
00:05:06
Speaker 2: Also, I mean, let's be seriously, they released Minecraft this year like the biggest hits, like this is the thing, money, money, money, and this is also everywhere making money. And I'm I'm happy because I feel like we didn't one hundred percent know where this one was gonna land. It's the most profitable solo Superman movie opening weekend.
00:05:30
Speaker 1: We should also not f one a co pro between Apple Studios and Warner Brothers Warner is distributing Apple Producers, so yeah, you know.
00:05:39
Speaker 2: What, Warner is good at those deals because Warner also makes Abbot Elementary that's right, and then we know ABC distros it, so they've done a good job with those kind of deals. But yeah, I'm I love that you guys all enjoyed this movie. Obviously, if you listen to Mine and Jason talking about the movie, we also really enjoyed it. Let's talk about one thing that you guys loved and one thing that like didn't walk. Let's go the other way around, Joelle, what was your one thing that you really loved and one thing that maybe could have been better?
00:06:12
Speaker 3: I love that Superman and Lois Fuck.
00:06:14
Speaker 4: I love.
00:06:20
Speaker 1: A cheesy bathtub.
00:06:23
Speaker 3: Superman. That scene. I was like, the hell is happy?
00:06:26
Speaker 2: He lifted her up with one mom.
00:06:28
Speaker 3: Like they do it in that tiny kitchen, and I was like, who can't relate to this young love? This is great. I also love that Lois is like canonically older than Superman. It reads really well on the screen. It's like hyper cute. I love she.
00:06:42
Speaker 1: Makes it clear in their in their early part of their scenes together that like unsure what the emotions are, but this is primarily about we fucking yeah.
00:06:58
Speaker 2: I also like that she just tells everyone. Everyone will be like, how's that guy? She just seeing him? Just see we know what that babe? Yeah?
00:07:07
Speaker 5: Field, or he only dates people he meets at work.
00:07:12
Speaker 3: For the internet, these fragile feelings. I don't think that he can barely be on Twitter.
00:07:16
Speaker 2: I don't think he's He's met and he met her three months ago, and he like casually tells her he loves her, and it's like, I should have told you that a long time ago. He's like, like, what do you mean? He's a sweet I met you.
00:07:30
Speaker 3: I was ready to commit amazing uh. Like Coutique, I I feel like the Engineer is such an interesting character that got to do nothing on screen, and it really bugs me. It was just like I gave him my humanity for this, and like, I would love to have seen it, Babe, would love to have seen you a make this choice and be what that sacrifice meant for you? And really I can extend that to almost all of Luther's Like I really I love a good villain and this is an excellent villain, and a good villain with good henches is even better. And I really feel like We had a good cast of characters here who didn't get enough time to shine in the positions they were in for us to understand, like the dynamics between Luther and these people because when not to get too far head, but somebody gets injured and Luther's like seems to be very affected by this. I'm like, I needed more of why so I would I would like to see more of it in the future, But overall really filled with.
00:08:22
Speaker 2: This movie common how about you So.
00:08:26
Speaker 4: Something that really worked for me, which at first I was nervous about, was Crypto the super Dog. I was nervous at first and excited when I saw the trailers because it kind of reminded me of the Scooby Doo movies. Basically, how's it going to be having, you know, a cgi dog on screen? But they pulled it off, in my opinion, really really well, and he was used just enough to keep things I think exciting and chaotic, but he was not used so much that he just kind of you got tired of seeing him there. Every time he came on screen. It was a moment in the theater, like I said before, and he was probably one of my favorite parts of the movie. I'm like, that was my I was watching it and thinking, that's my dog. Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker 2: I love that he's like a cheeky, badly behaved all.
00:09:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:09:21
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things that's most fun about it, and that really gets people going in the cinema, Like when he's injured at the beginning and Crypto is just like jumping on him, and then when you kind of get the payoff of seeing why that is at the end is really fun. What didn't work for you common.
00:09:39
Speaker 4: Well, I think we're all going to have similar criticisms here. But again, for me to kind of piggyback off of what Joelle said, I also thought that the Hinchman Lexus Henchman, Ultraman, and the Engineer were a little flat. I would have loved I loved that they didn't, like do an origin story. I love that they just threw us right into the story because we all know Superman's origin story at this point, you know. But I would have loved a little bit just to kind of make us more emotionally invested in maybe Ultraman and the Engineer because they were interesting. Villains are always some of the most interesting like parts of a movie to me. And I wanted to know more.
00:10:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they ended up in a problem where like Lex was such a fantastic villain, and then the idea of the video game kind of players who were helping him was such a smart tool. The outside of that, you were kind of like, well, why would rather just be back with them? We weren't given enough and obviously the ultraman thing is meant to be like it's a twist and it's but then that also feels like maybe something where originally it was meant to be something different. I do we do have some more insight into maybe why that happened with some quotes that Saffron and Gun recently gave about the authority and how it's kind of actually being like held back because it's not working. It was meant to be a much bigger part of the movie originally. But Aaron, what was your thing that you loved and thing that didn't work for you?
00:11:11
Speaker 5: Like I said, the casting I think was incredible. Everyone was better than I expected, from Nathan Fillion to Bet Bennett. I mean, everyone played their.
00:11:20
Speaker 4: Parts of really really well.
00:11:21
Speaker 5: I also thought, like I think Lex was incredible and a really great depiction of him. I almost wish we just had him piloting faceless raptor soldiers the whole time, because then we would just feel like he's the true villain, and I would not have been disappointed, I think by Ultraman. I think that in a lot of ways, it kind of felt like it was just hitting comic book movie greatest hits. We get a scene where the character is grappled by enemies, and so they fly up really high into the sky and then plummet down. We get a scene where it turns out your greatest enemy is a clone or just like a carbon copy of you kind of thing, And like, as much as the Superman is a human and he wants to exist among humanity is a new take. I think Superman wise, every single x Men movie is that same kind of thing.
00:12:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, also like every Spider Man movie, like there's an evil version of you, and you now people. Also, let's be realistic. The whole movie is about cultural kind of feelings about Superman and how to turn Superman into a weapon or a villain or something that people won't trust. You had a clone of Superman, you could have just had him out there doing evil things. That's a classics setup. So I liked that they did it a little bit different, but yeah, I think I think it's interestingly. I think the ultraman stuff is more gonna set up kind of either a bizarro world type situation or maybe like a crime syndicate that's just gonna be a three. But yeah, I can understand how. I think that as well. Was a bit of a moment where we were all like, oh when he took the.
00:13:02
Speaker 5: Helmet, Yeah, and then a Boo and I saw it together and we both walked out and we were kind of I think both of us a little like. The second act kind of dragged a little bit. I think the whole scene with like the river to the black hole where he's holding the baby out of the water.
00:13:16
Speaker 2: The anti proton river was a little cig crazy that took a little too long.
00:13:22
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I couldn't tell what was happening with the fight in there, but it led to some fun stuff. I loved seeing Crypto, like, again, those are some cool things in there. It just felt like it got a little too a little too convoluted in that particular moment.
00:13:36
Speaker 1: Okay, what about you, Rosie, what is a thing that worked for you and a thing that didn't.
00:13:42
Speaker 2: Work, I love again. I think you guys have bought up tons of great stuff about this movie. I think, like the character interactions. The one thing we haven't bought up, but I know we talked about it a lot, is like I thought mister Terrific was just so good, Like everyone was so good, but I think mister Terrific was so good. Like if I was making that movie and I'd been planning to have a version of the Authority working for Lex Luthor, and that was meant to be like a big kind of moment, and it was meant to be this big like WHOA, I would probably be like, Hey, what about this other team that works for Maxwell Lord, who we've just cast like a fantastic Shakespearean level actor with who is bringing this kind of complicated like it's thespian, But it's also in that James Gunn kind of exploitation black exploitation mold that he likes to play with. But they actually got a really great actor to be that character, and he's such a fun leader. Like I definitely think mister Terrific is what I want to see next. And I'm glad I saw them say they were thinking about doing TV you know TV shows and stuff. But I'm like, I think mister Terrific needs to be in the movies. That is a big screen man. He's proved his way. Something that didn't work for me, you know what, just uh not everything tonally landed for me, like the kind of hope punk against the billionaire Kryptonite kind of thing. I love the concept of it, I love the idea of it, but I was definitely in that Aaron like this was like a solid, like seven out of ten movie for me. But I think it's like also like a fantastic movie, and I love how much people are enjoying it. I just think like there's always going to be some things that don't necessarily gel and I think that was for me like less than one thing, because I really think all the disparate parts of this movie are pretty great. That was just one thing where I was like, I feel like there's a different version of this movie where I would have been like weeping the whole time. Though I will say when I saw it the second time, I actually found it to be incredibly emotional. And I think once the pressure of like what does this movie mean for this industry, for this show, for DC, Like, there's so much weighing on this, We've been thinking about it for years, the world has. I think my first viewing was kind of way down a little bit by that and just sort of like is it going to do that? But then the second viewing, when I went with the kid and I was just like enjoying my time at the movie, was like way more. I was way more hit by kind of the score and the way they used music. And so I think the more I watch it, it's definitely going to become like a really fun rewatchable for me, which is a big part of the movie becoming a comfort movie. Jason, how about you? Is there a big win, big lose or is it kind of in the middle.
00:16:39
Speaker 1: I think the big win for me is DC's more fictional universe with fictional countries, and I think that that kind of more distanced comic book metaphor works in twenty twenty five, as evidenced by the most recent Captain America film, Stepping on a Thousand Rakes. You know, every which way it turned to try and figure out how do we keep an idf character in here? How do we yeah, because the president make the president, who's like turning into an orange skinned like beast, not.
00:17:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean even like also, I would say that we've seen like me and Jason talked about this momentarily, but we've seen these kind of cut clips that they cut from Brave New World that would have added so much gravitas, added so much more impact. But there is like that fear because I think of the real world countries, the real world characters. Whereas obviously we have seen with Superman, James Gunn was able to use that to make analogies that now people are reading into in a like very powerful way and having conversations about. But was able to do that because it is a fictional right.
00:18:00
Speaker 1: And listen, the worst people in the world are still teeing off on this movie, Ben Shapiro, et cetera. But at least this approach doesn't make it easy for them. And this approach doesn't make it so when your corporate backers flip out, you then have to like scramble scramble scramble and figure something out.
00:18:21
Speaker 2: It's plausible deniability. You don't have to do the cots, you know, and it still hits just as hard.
00:18:28
Speaker 1: You know, the the all the kind of allegories that are integral to Superman and his mission on Earth are there, and they make sense in a world that we live in, but they're not things with like easily grasped handles that let the again the worst intention to people like in the world create like clubs out of them to like beat people over the head with. And we talked about this when we talked about the movie. But I do wonder if this, if DC's approach isn't ascendant right now, if I walked away from this movie thinking, wow, that was kind of like the superhero movie that I needed right now, and it didn't tho any of the punches thematically message wise, and it presented them in a way that is true to DC and feels like exactly the thing we need right now. What I did, like, you know, I guess I agree with basically what everybody has said. I could have used. Gosh, you know, I think in any movie that has this many characters that have you know, you're just gonna feel like somebody is left on the cutting room floor always.
00:19:50
Speaker 3: I think the.
00:19:51
Speaker 1: Engineer is obviously the big one. I think there are some others, but I think at times it just felt a little overstuffed. But you know, credit to Gunn for figuring all that out.
00:20:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's a fair critique because it's one of those things where he wanted to put us into a world where we feel like we're jumping into a comic book, and that has been very much the feeling we got from it and the feeling of reading that is often that sometimes it's over stuffed. You know. I do think it's funny because I think that's an interesting thing to try to evoke, because you are going to go in and be in a situation where certain people are gonna not necessarily feel like they understand everything. But on a as a general gambit, I think it worked so much better than doing an origin or doing something slow, and we did end up with this incredible ensemble cast who I think, Actually, let's talk about the ensemble cast when we come back from a brain when we're back to talk about that ensemble cost, Joel lead us Off, Let's talk about this cost and its strengths and what it says about James Gunn's filmmaking. Like, let's see how it goes.
00:21:23
Speaker 3: Okay, so you have to take everything you get at a press Junkeet with a grain of salt because people are here to sell movie tickets and so there. But what I found un to day Rosie and I were at the junket at the same time we're tigh and they had everybody sort of group, so it was like, your villains are here, and then here's like the Daily Planet folks. When I was talking to the folks of the Daily Planet, I was like, really struck by how close they were as a group. Now, granted they've been doing press to her for a long time, but they say this like started in Georgia when they were shooting at a wrestling match, which I was delighted by. And I think when you talk here James guns Like, folks talk about like working with him, it's always like it's so fun and he's very encouraging it. And I just I think that the casting for this is so great that even the characters we don't get a lot of time with, the like newspaper editor played by Wendell Pierce. It's someone I went to have minded spending more time with understanding James Gunn's layout for the DC universe, which is to say, all these characters are going to reappear. We've already talked to cast members about how much they're going to reappear. I think using people strategically, how much time did Window Pierce really have to spend on set? Maybe three weeks maybe becausn't a lot of time to go off and do all of the many other projects he has, you know, cooking. It makes him want to come back as an actor because he knows the time's not going to be wasted, and also gives us enough insight to know like, oh, these people are coming back in a big way, and we trust these actors. That makes me really excited. I also think, you know, we had talked a little bit before about the prices, the rates the different actors were being paid on the news last Like if you heard Jason and I mentioned, you know, Nicholas got paid a lot more more than David and Rachel reportedly. I'm cool with this, and I again, I think there's just a lot of strategy here, Like how in one of these people, I bet we don't see Nick for a while. That's okay. We don't need Lex to come back for a minute. He gave us so much to work with and he.
00:23:15
Speaker 2: Can be Jim Belle reeve he can be in planning to make the Injustice gangway.
00:23:20
Speaker 3: And he gave us so much to work with in this film that was so so enjoyable that you're like, I'm I'm fed, I'm satiated, and there's enough characters here. I want to spend more time with Hawkgirl. I want to spend more time with mister Terrific easily the runway of the show, so I think the ensemble was incredible, delighted in spending time with him, and I want to spend more time with all these folks in New Properties as well.
00:23:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how do you feel about something I know? Where was one of my reads the first time I saw it. I feel kind of differently about it now, especially because I love Common's bimbo read. But let's talk about the women of James gun Let's talk about that Common because we get you know, Lois, she's a badass, she's tenacious, she's gonna this happen, she's wearing a little vest, you know, and she's very much in that mold of your kind of James Gunn strong, powerful, badass, angry woman. And then the other women in the movie with Kat Grunt, with Eve, we kind of get this more like bimbo kind of thing, but the bimbos here are also you know, Eve arguably saves the day. Yeah, So, how did you read the kind of women in this movie, because there were also a lot of them for a superhero movie. That's another funny thing about this movie.
00:24:31
Speaker 4: There were yes, Yes, I loved that. We basically we got, as you said, those two different archetypes. We get the strong, like ambitious reporter, a journalist who is going to break this case. And then we get the unseemingly like genius bimbo type who has been this whole time, like since the opening of the movie. We the whole theater erupts with laughter when you know the fight is happening. Uh, and she's just there like taking selfies the whole time. We find out she's been taking selfies of like war plans and all of this, And I thought.
00:25:09
Speaker 2: That was like such a fun, good twist and both sat in the movie. I really enjoyed how it was very clear at the beginning that it was a lot of men laughing at her, like you would always hear it when she was in the background, and as a kind of reality of what she is doing is revealed, they suddenly find that like a lot less funny, which.
00:25:31
Speaker 3: I pause here really quick because I've talked to a lot of people who view this differently. Now I'm with you, ladies. I was like, Eve is strategically taking photos of herself in front of materials that she can leave your set. But some folks were like, that was completely coincidental that Eve had just been like that had.
00:25:53
Speaker 1: Maybe three times, but not like.
00:25:57
Speaker 3: That. She said, this is an intelligent woman, maybe it's not like a genius, which I think is okay, Like she's like she.
00:26:07
Speaker 4: Has emotional and social intelligence.
00:26:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to be a genius. Also as well, like she's smart enough to know that the men in the room do not take her seriously enough. Yet she can use her phone, her private phone takes the relationship with Jimmy.
00:26:24
Speaker 3: That's causing people to have like trouble because she's chasing after Jimmy, who I think, if we think in like cinematical language, is not someone that is often pictured is like desirable, right, and so like they're confused that somebody who's quote hot would go after somebody who doesn't think much of her. She must I'm telling.
00:26:47
Speaker 4: You something I relate to Eve a lot, because I know exactly what she saw in Jimmy.
00:26:53
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, I know exactly. I actually have to say though, I actually think so. I did speak to the wonderful Sarah Sampio, who played Eve, and I asked her and I said, you know, I felt because she was with like Joel said, she was with the engineer actress Maria and she they kind of put them there as the villains. And I asked her and I said, well, I think that you guys pretty complex characters. I said, what do you think drives Eve? And she said, well, it's just all about security. Like so Lex was security. Lex was a rich guy, a nice life, clothes security. But Lex then also was a narcissistic guy who puts his women in a pocket universe prison his eyes. And also what I really loved is the moment he threw something at Eve, which, by the way, in the first screening that me and Joel went to, a man laughed when he threw the pennin. Somebody laughed. I was like, cannot, I'm fighting. I love that. Eve was like no, I'm not doing that. And then it's really funny because to me, it's extremely clear that Jimmy represents a different kind of security, which is like, yeah, well he has a day to day job. He is not like an insane billionaette. He is the safety of the normal. I think that what James Gunn did that's really funny. Is this kind of play of like Jimmy Olsen as the unexpectedly hot guy that everybody has a crush on. I think that's a fun game because Sky is also charming.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: Can I just put such a sweetheart?
00:28:23
Speaker 5: I don't think Jimmy treats her well.
00:28:25
Speaker 2: No no, no, no no no. In her mind compel no, no, no, no no.
00:28:30
Speaker 3: I did say in my interview that she what she found attractive in Jimmy is the fact that he told her no, and she often doesn't get told no. And here's here's my point. Carmen earlier, like, listen, this is a person of intelligence who is smart enough to be like, oh, I'll play on your misunderstanding of who I am as a person to get information to protect myself. And she also is going for a guy who has zero interested in her. And both things can be true, and both can make her for a really interesting character. And I love Eve. I would dive for Eve. I think she's perfect me too.
00:29:02
Speaker 2: And I also think it's like I think the reason that people don't like it is they don't like the idea that there are different types of intelligence emotional intelligence. They don't they basically don't want to say what they think about Eve is like she is a self serving character, but it's actually okay to be self serving to protect yourself in that situation. And I also think it's an interesting, funny kind of play on what we expect from women in superho movies, because there were moments where I was like, okay, is he like is this too obvious? Like she's bending over in front of the Fortress of Solitude and her butts in her little tight leggings and I'm like yeah, And I was like I was, But then I was like, actually, this is what it is like to read a comic book. Is like you find those brilliant, cool women who are also drawn super cheesecakey and like living in these really complicated different situations. So I think in that way, I I did really enjoy it. I need to know. I need to know what Cat Grant has been working on. I think this like funny Cat Grant. I want to see her more. I want to see what she can do. Let's let her be more active in the next one, because again, like that is a character in the comics who has always done so much. She's owned her own media empire and the TV shows she like. I want to see Kat using her boob shaking for good. I believe she has a promotion.
00:30:29
Speaker 3: For Supergirl is what I'm seeing. I'm hoping we see her really step up in.
00:30:32
Speaker 2: The Oh, that's a great call at she didn't consider that.
00:30:35
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about Miss Tesmaker the twenty twenty five version is less like that. I think she's obviously quite smart. I think she obviously was taking those pictures purposefully to have a chip just in case things went bad with Lex and she had some bargaining power to get out of there and potentially take revenge. Yeah, I think the thing Like I I think Eve is clearly very smart. She clearly was being very strategic with the evidence she was gathering. I think to me, like the the debate about whether she was doing it on purpose is like, for me, it misses the point. I think what's interesting about Eve is she is this kind of character that you know you need in a story like this often, and it's the person who has like the it's not even like a a crisis of ethics or morals.
00:31:37
Speaker 2: She clearly knows what's loyalties.
00:31:39
Speaker 1: She she knows what's happening is wrong, but she's not really gonna do anything about it unless it's bad for her exactly, And I think that's interesting and that's interesting, right, Like she's waiting until like it's bad for her and then she's ready to jump ship. That to me is like if you want to criticize even for anything, you can criticize her for that, which is basically she's almost entirely self serving about her decision to be good, which is again like kind of interesting to me. That's there's everybody out of everybody else in that control room like controlling Ultraman, controlling the Hammer of Borovia, helping Lex do like the worst fucking shit imprison dozens. It's not a hundreds of people in like extra judicial pocket universes where they are tortured like fucking forever and executed by Lex himself, like like none of them really is like this is fucked up, maybe a little bit, but certainly not enough to like do anything about it, and so she's the only one who's like, Okay, this is fucked up. I'm getting great stuff out of it, and right now it's pretty good, but I could see how it could turn into a bad situation. So let me just like just in case, like gather all this stuff. I think that's really to me, that's really interesting, you know. And I think that there's a world in which, you know, she's all about safety. I think there's a world in which you could say that she's probably does she care about Jimmy or is she looking for a safe landing spot to get out of here? I think either reading is interesting to me, you know. And so she's a I think she's a much more intentional character than the kind of surface level is she dumb or not? Like conversation gives her credit for and then the conversation and then the things that happened that follow after that once you accept that, are are much more interesting because again I don't is she a she saves the day, but I would argue she does it for like almost entirely selfish reasons, which is interesting.
00:33:56
Speaker 2: I think that's also like great because that's how real decisions are made at all times, and Lex is the opposite end of that, where he is doing all of this, like he admits to engineering an international crisis just so he can kill Superman. So in her own way, her saving the day just so she can escape Lex is actually like really interesting.
00:34:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:19
Speaker 2: I think that is one of the surprise, breakout interesting conversations and characters from this movie. And I really really hope that we do get the world that is promised. And I just think it's funny. Like the second time I watched the movie, they have the girls in the office be like he's so hot, and you think they're talking about Clark, but they're talking about Jimmy And you know what. I sometimes there are just weird guys like that who every girl finds hot, Like it's just true.
00:34:49
Speaker 3: You know what, boy, Summer guys, what happened?
00:34:53
Speaker 1: You know what it is? It's like kind of like, well, Pete Davidson is also tall and funny, so a bit of other guys like like the Count and Crows guy. What needs to happen is the first hot I don't know about woman to break the seal that he hates. This air of mystery around the weird guy for the rest of them, where everybody else is like, well, I wonder what it is. I mean, starts the mistique.
00:35:21
Speaker 2: We know that we know Eve like is one of only many girls and Jimmy Olson's phone like, and you.
00:35:29
Speaker 1: Know the other thing is Jimmy. We say that he doesn't treat her well. I would slightly push back and say that I actually think Jimmy is being pretty upfront about his feelings with her. He's making them, He's making them as obvious as he can be without being rude about it. Right, And whenever, you know, I live in a Bravo household, I love I love, I love all the blow decks. I'm watching them all the time. And when ever there's like some sort of romance happening, like on below Deeck of one of these shows below Deck, primarily I'll be like, you know what this and you can see that the that the the lady involved is kind of like losing interest. I would always I'll always say to Christina, my wife, I'll be like, you know what he needs to do right now is just cut it off, is just get interested in somebody else, And that okay, And that's kind of that's part of Jimmy's things day it's not like he's not chasing her. He's not like he doesn't.
00:36:31
Speaker 2: Even see her. Hot is like your girlfriend, and he was like she's hot. Okay, I'm like.
00:36:39
Speaker 3: Wuk out of here, Jimmy gay guys. Something I've bend really interesting about the conversation we're having right now, and something I've noticed as I'm watching other folks have their conversations around Superman. It's like, as much as Korinsman does the job that he needs to do, and he's great for this movie, and we really like Superman, I feel like so much the conversation is about everything that happens around Superman. And some folks have even said that, you know, his fight isn't the like he doesn't get the big fight, like the best fight for some folks is mister Terrific.
00:37:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sure, I think you know.
00:37:09
Speaker 2: I'm not.
00:37:09
Speaker 3: I don't want to do too much Marvel to DC comparison, but I'm really intrigued by this idea of Marvel starts their universe with Iron Man, and for all intented purposes, RDJ becomes like this cemented grounding force for Marvel going forward by starting with korans with Superman nailing the character us all loving him, but giving us so much of the rest of the world, and understanding that there's a long history of supers before we dive into this world. I think DC has done something really interesting in that we could sort of get under all of these characters and invested in them in a way that propels I think perhaps a longer arc of their universe then what Marvel has struggled with, which is like once the main you know, when Koren's at least, I feel like DC is going to be okay. We have so many other people to fall back on, you know, without RDJ, and without the person was poster replace RDJ our Black Panther. You know, I do wonder like it's the setup. Does it work better for you guys REDC or if not better, then do you see this as a sustainable way forward for them?
00:38:13
Speaker 2: I think it's a natural response and a smart response because it's basically reverse engineering what MCU did. So instead of like doomsday, we're like, oh, it's gonna be every cameo. How long are they gonna be in it? And there's gonna be thirty five cast members. James Gun instead was like, hey, well, if you have your thirty five cast members. Here your world has already exploded, then we don't get into our Avengers replication situation. And then from here, if the movie does well, then great. We actually have a ton of different people we can follow. And I'm gonna say something, I don't think this is the first time James Gunn did this. I think the first time James dun did this was with The Suicide Squad. But the movie did not make enough money for that world to kind of build out and explode it the way he wanted, so he changed tax he bought the characters he wanted to into this world with, like the Frank Rios continuation of the Rick Flagg Junior storyline. Oh, Frank rio I'm not gonna lie. I love the original so Sid Squad movie, so I'm very excited to see Rick Flagg Senior hunting down Peacemaker, who I believe should be dead for killing Rick the Flag Junior. So and I thought his representation of this kind of tired cynical, like he knows that arresting Superman is a bad idea, but he's also like, that's just what we have to do as the government, which is something I also feel like is very relevant and real right now. And I think that that version of this world where it's world built out, we already know James Gun can make a TV show that was a hit, Peacemaker, Creature Commando's unexpectedly great. I think that he is setting up a ripe playground to take from in both both movies and TV, with a platform like HBO that actually has a massive audience for fantastic TV. I think that DC is in a better situation than Marvel is when it comes to balancing the TV and movies of it all. Aaron, what character if you were gonna go from here, would you be most excited to see carried On in a different story Superman? Yeah for sure. But I love that because that's not, after our conversation, not necessarily what you would think, but that I think is the strength of what Corn Sweat did here.
00:40:36
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:37
Speaker 5: So, I think Gun does an incredible job with an ensemble cast. He's done it through all the Guardians. He's introduced more people to the Guardians. He got to a point where at the end of Guardians three, I was like, I want to watch this new set of Guardians with the little Kid and Big Groot and everything yeah, I don't. As much as I love all the cast of characters in this and I think there's I do think mister Shrift as the most exciting fight scene, even if it might be a little bit of recycled assets from yon DU's Arrow, you know, going in there like but you know, I don't.
00:41:08
Speaker 2: And the kids that I saw it with loved that and they thought it was Oh I loved it, but also that was like, to them, felt like an intentional homage, and they're almost getting that feeling, you know, being eleven, but they're going, oh, that's like Yondu's Arrow and then and it feels really similar. And they're kind of getting to have that critical reading of cinema that we all love to have as kids, and they're getting to put that on there, which I think is another thing that's that's pretty cool. But yeah, you're right, Like.
00:41:35
Speaker 5: I do think we'll talk about this more with the future of DC and where the movies will go. I'm not sure if anything from this movie jumped out at me of like I cannot wait for a movie starring this person, but I'm excited to see this group. I'm excited to see the Justice Gang now with Metamorpho, go tackle something. But I don't want a Metamorpho solo movie. I don't want a Metamorpho TV show. I don't want, you know, like I don't want to play my cards too early here. But the fact that they're talking about a Jimmy Olsen TV series to me is very concerning. But we can talk about that later.
00:42:09
Speaker 3: Daily Planet, how it's spent so much time in there. I will love see Lois do an investigation, love that whole cast.
00:42:14
Speaker 2: Let's go to a quick break and then talk about exactly that, because I do think I will make the argument for why I think a Jimmy Olsen's show is good. But yes, let's go, and then let's come back.
00:42:42
Speaker 1: And we're back.
00:42:43
Speaker 2: We're back, and we're back.
00:42:45
Speaker 3: I want to wait.
00:42:46
Speaker 1: I want to quickly say something about like the Superman, I think that DC and Marvel in their movie properties are there's an important structural difference we mentioned like starting with Iron Man and launching it from there, there are I think by launching with characters that air quotes nobody really cared about, which is true like on the larger cultural sense rights, Yeah, Marvel created this framework that allowed for their tremendous success and was based in the success of those individual characters and Marvel's ability to present them in exciting and winning such situations like the Guardians of the Galaxy, another team that nobody gives it about.
00:43:35
Speaker 2: Definitely not DC.
00:43:37
Speaker 1: It's different like Superman. We talked about Superman kind of being like, you don't notice how great he is and all these other things pop out and he doesn't get the best fight. That's because to me, Superman is like you know, it's like Miles McClue in the medium is the message. Superman is the medium. He's the world in which these characters operate.
00:43:57
Speaker 2: Every if you talk relative to him.
00:43:59
Speaker 1: If you if you're talking about DC, it's no disrespect to the incredible stable of characters in DC. It's Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and then you can kind of like I guess Green Lantern.
00:44:12
Speaker 2: And it depends on ye and when it is it really depends. Long time it was Halloquinn was the fourth PID.
00:44:20
Speaker 1: It's those three, and if you nail those three, it allows all these other interesting characters to work. And if you nail those three kind of by design, you lose sight of like how important of a Lynchpin. Those three are to their worlds like Superman. You just once in the first five minutes of the movie, once I bought that, Like, Okay, Corn Sweat fucking nailed it. He's Superman, He's Clark k Comby. Now I'm paying attention to all this other stuff because I'm just like, oh, huge relief, Corn Sweat is Superman. I don't need to worry about it anymore. And now I'm going to pay attention to every thing else. And I think that's different from the way that Marvel is set up. And maybe and maybe it's you know it was if they keep nailing these characterizations as they did with Superman, it really might be DC's turn to rule.
00:45:17
Speaker 3: So then the follow up question is if Corn Sweat is a great Superman and Robinson is a great Batman, oh, do we say a world where these two couldna beat each other? Superman and Batman can get it.
00:45:31
Speaker 2: Wal I think because of how stylized and colorful and influenced by the comics this world was, I think that there is a world where I absolutely would believe that this is Metropolis and that dark, ass depressing world the Patson in is that same Gotham like in the same world I think it was. I think there's gonna have to be massive stylistic differences. They're gonna have Guy Gardner Green Lantern played by Nathan Fillyon, and I love the representation of the character. They're going to have him in that true detective Dark Dreary, HBO Max, you know, serious prestige TV show, And that doesn't seem like right now, it makes a lot of sense, But I don't have any worry that they're not going to be able to pull that off.
00:46:18
Speaker 1: You hear this a lot, Like I've heard a lot of people say, well, I don't know how you would do it. I don't think you could have that Batman in this Superman world. And I agree that, like the contrast would be immense, but I kind of think that's what would make it interesting.
00:46:35
Speaker 2: So cool.
00:46:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like, obviously it would not be easy, but Superman wasn't easy, and.
00:46:44
Speaker 2: James it was the hoddest movie he ever made in his life.
00:46:47
Speaker 1: It's only the masterful way that they pulled it off that makes it look easy. And so I think that there's absolutely a world in which Robert Pattinson's Batman that tone can exist in the same movie as Corn sweat Superman with that tone, I think there's absolutely a world where that could help.
00:47:06
Speaker 3: Can I tell you what the lynchpin is. It's Pattinson. He's got the range. He understands he understands comedy so well, but he also understands drama so well, and we've seen him flip back and forth within different space. I mean, you look at Batman specifically, and while we're not getting the sort of like golly gee of it all, it doesn't matter because Batman is never gonna hit a golly g Yeah. Ever, like the whole point is that they're complete opposites of one another. I think it works really really well potentially.
00:47:34
Speaker 2: I kind of love the idea that the map of James Gun's DC world is like the map of the comics where you're trying to work out, like really where they are, so like they say Metropolis is actually Delaware and that Gotham is actually New Jersey, like if you put them on a map, And it's really funny because we all know culturally those are not the connotations we make. But I kind of love the idea. It's like, why didn't Batman come and help Superman? With this. Have you watched The Batman? That man is just fighting NonStop serial killers and it flooded. But also like and we can't see, we can see why Superman is too busy to go to that world. I think it would work, and I think eventually I've heard that, you know, Matt Reeves he finished that script. I think all those interviews with James Gunn being like Matt Reeves is slow as probably exactly the if somebody called me slow in a Rolling Stone interview, I would also probably quickly send them a draft and be like, I've finished. Definitely was going to send you this anyway. But like, I think it's a timing thing. I think it would make sense, And I also think the best thing is like we have time to see where this is gonna go. I mean, they're doing a clay Face movie that's written by Mike Flanagan that my understanding is probably not even gonna be set at the same timeline in the same like time era as this. We have three hundred years of history. There's so many different ways that they could do it, and I just really hope that they keep taking big, ambitious swings, because I think that is the thing where even to me on like a Rosi's you know, I never I don't really grade stuff on a curve because I think Parasite is a five star movie. But I also think, like you know, some lifetime movie I watch as a five style movie. Like I don't grade things relatively because I find that really impossible. But like I do believe that even though this is like a movie that maybe I thought was like a seven out of ten, objectively, I think it is so intricate and interesting and full of so many interesting ideas that it is a launchpad for something that is really exciting and something else. Guys, I'll tell you the people, the humans, they are excited to see the Superman, Like this is not having the you know, when Batman came out, which by the way, made tons of money, let's just remember that, and also had a fantastic romance at the center, which I think is very interesting compara with this, because it's a romance that's based on a lack of honesty and like a kind of deception and a need to hide who they are. But obviously Lewis and Clark is all about honesty, and I think that's really interesting. But also, like that movie, so much of the conversation was like can a kid watched this? Like it's too scary? There's murders, like does where does this fit in? Superman doesn't have any of those questions around it. Everyone's just like cool, Yeah, James, James Gunn's made this like it was almost I almost feel like he said it was the hardest movie he's ever made. But in a way it's it's also like a really simple It seems simple as a launch pad, like hey, here's a story about Superman just punching his way through a fight, but it has these threads. I mean, dude, when I interviewed Wendell Pisse, who is you know, plays Perry White, who is an icon, he was giving me the deepest answers about like journalism and the things he learned on the wire, about that he brought to Perry and that he's going to get to explore as Perry. You don't lie to Wendle Pierce about that, you know, James Gun's not there hyping him up, going like, yeah, you're going to be able to do it. No, even though we've learned that with Eddie. He was treated like that by Fox when they were making the X Men movies and was basically told, don't worry, Darwin's gonna come back. You're going to get to do it. I don't feel like James Gun's done that here. I feel like he's built a community and a cinematic kind of experience that is getting people excited. And now hopefully we will get to see that kind of spread out and get wider and encompass more storytelling, encompass different kinds of people, different kinds of stories. And I just I feel like, unless something really surprising happens, I feel like Superman maybe is going to be the bigger hit than Fantastic For. And that's kind of the crazy thing to me.
00:51:53
Speaker 5: Oh, I think it is setting itself up for sure to be bigger than Fantastic For.
00:51:57
Speaker 2: I know, but that seems crazy. It's a crazy It's really just yeah, dude, You've got to understand. Superman movies, when you actually look back at them, have not really been that financially successful, especially over the last like twenty five years. Superman is a cultural icon and a cultural symbol, but not necessarily a big seller in comic shops, not always like making like think about Superman returns from two thousand and six. Everything from then on has been very controversial in the Superman landscape, whereas Fantastic Four, those movies made a lot of money the original tim Story movies, but not just that, they have gained a nostalgia around them. And another one of the things about the Fantastic Four is this is a project that people have been waiting for the MCU to adapt for like twenty years, Like since they first started. They have said when will they get those rights back? So the fact that a Superman movie is potentially going to upend the Fantastic Four with a cast like that, with the MCU putting Matt Schackman on it, who did One Division, which was one of their biggest successes, with it coming at a time when the MCU basically needs to reset, I think it will be an upset if Superman ends up making more money than the Fantastic Four.
00:53:14
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I don't know. I'm not sure.
00:53:18
Speaker 4: Let's go to a quick.
00:53:34
Speaker 1: And we're back.
00:53:35
Speaker 2: We're back. Let's talk about what it means for the future of DC. Jason, what are you most excited to kind of see coming out of this. We haven't even talked about the teas of Supergirl. Supergirl is our next movie coming out in less than a year. Now, got clay Face coming out next year. Allegedly. Two Peacemaker is confirmed for this year. Then we've got Lantern's next year. Other than that those four projects, nothing else is confirmed though, which I think is an interesting space to be in. But I guess you're most excited.
00:54:07
Speaker 1: The Brave and the Bowl and whatever that is actually going to be because because that's the big that's the second part of the trinity that must appear, right, Batman must appear at some point. Is it going to be a Brave in the Bold story with Batman and Robin? Is it going to be starring Robert Pattinson or another actor? I think all of those things are on the table, and to me, that is hugely consequential. Like that, it's massive. I can't wait to see what that movie is and if it is as previously reported.
00:54:45
Speaker 2: Joelle, how about you.
00:54:47
Speaker 3: There's a movie called Dynamic Duo coming up animated.
00:54:51
Speaker 2: It looks so good. It looks like.
00:54:55
Speaker 3: Yeah and animation. So they're mixing both. They're stop animations and it's interesting because it's it's puppetry, but it's like a mechanic puppetry, so like the they're like running, like, wait, what's happening? Uh. You could see some of the teasers they've dropped online for that. That looks really good. And that's a Dick Grayson and Robin Damian Wayne story I believe, which is really it's a Jason Todter is a Damian Let me sure, sorry, it's Jason Todd. Yeah. So it's Jason Todd and Dick Grayson, which is one of my favorite combos, uh for those heroes. And I just think it looks really good. It's fun. I think it's really important that they get animation right, especially if we consider what Sony's doing with the Spider Verse and how influential those movies have been. And Sony's on a continue run with the K Pop Demon Hunters. I think they're teaming inja. Turtles movie is one of the best animated films I've seen. Yeah years, I love it. Uh, And so it's and Warner Bros. Used to be the king of like animated superhero stuff, like they couldn't miss for years, and then it's took a sharp, horrific turn left and I can't even watch most of their animated films now.
00:56:03
Speaker 2: And this is going to be a cinema released too, rather than a straight.
00:56:06
Speaker 3: Yeah you know what I think is a part So I'm really hyped for that. But if we're talking live action, bring me those Lantern court right now. Rosie and I have already been contemplating if you are a fan of the Justice League animated series like we are, Hawt Girl has a relationship with John j Yeah, John Stewart screen lantern and it's so hot and so fun and.
00:56:29
Speaker 2: Setting up with having Aaron Pierre and obviously Isabella calm on. What are you most excited about?
00:56:37
Speaker 4: Well, this movie had a lot of hints to punk rock in it, and I was really excited about the the hints throughout and then of course the reveal at the end that Crypto is in fact super uh Supergirls Dog and I'm excited to see where that goes because I think that'll be e and more punk rock and even more just like amping it up in that direction. And I want more Crypto because that was really fun and cute, So more.
00:57:11
Speaker 2: Of that big Crypto fan. Aaron, how about you, what do you come out of this looking for?
00:57:16
Speaker 4: All?
00:57:16
Speaker 5: Right? Maybe looking forward to is the wrong word.
00:57:18
Speaker 2: But I'm most curious about Clayface.
00:57:20
Speaker 5: Yea interesting, but I'm curious about it because James Gunn has so far released Creature Commandos, Peacemaker, He's working on Peacemaker season two. He did Superman and then he's gonna do Supergirl. Clayface, is he fucking around too much? Like he?
00:57:36
Speaker 2: No? No, no, no no. Do you mean like character wise?
00:57:38
Speaker 3: No?
00:57:39
Speaker 5: I just mean like in general for the universe, like as Jason is saying, you have the three Pillars of PC, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. I know he's got the Paradise Lost TV show, but that is in development.
00:57:51
Speaker 2: In production right struggles.
00:57:55
Speaker 5: So like, are we really just go I loved Guardians of the Galaxy. He also didn't establish anyone necessarily beyond the Guardians within Marvel Cannon. So the fact that he, you know, has the authority swamp thing clay Face, like, are we too obtuse with our.
00:58:13
Speaker 2: Choices early on?
00:58:14
Speaker 4: Here?
00:58:15
Speaker 5: Is what I worry about that.
00:58:15
Speaker 3: And I think it's a.
00:58:16
Speaker 2: Good I think it's a good question. But I also would say I think, like the Snyder era proved that you can have three, you can have the trinity. But if you don't people don't connect with them. That won't bring people. So I think that you know, corn sweats so good. I think you could do something like you know super Girl, who at times they've tried to bring into a kind of new trinity, right, so you have that next year, do something weird like Clayface, and then I would hope you're starting to think about braving the bold Batman. Wonder Woman I think is going to be a longer, more complicated process. But we did get reporting recently that Gun and Saffran did kill off a third Galgado Wonder Woman film, so there's definitely movie those children. I think I am like most excited. Something I loved about the something I loved about The Suicide Squad, which really made me re visit James Gun's movies, was just I thought the kind of anti imperialists like politics the seventies thriller vibes where he wasn't afraid to question the US. And I am seeing this movie and I'm not seeing any real American tanks in it, which means they probably did not have to pay the military.
00:59:44
Speaker 3: To make the police officers either a police.
00:59:47
Speaker 2: Officers either lots of firemen. I I think that this movie again is James Gunn saying, Hey, maybe the US is the bad guys. Maybe we should consider what we're doing in a really way that feels incredible, timely and important. And I am excited that we might be in a superhero world where the politics of the heroes may align more with like the politics of the audience, rather than the Ultimate inspired MCU world that was always very heavily built in military tech, built on the idea of in the background of the post nine to eleven world, the Iraq war, Tony Stark. You know, I am interested to see Superman and see a hero who's like I am just representing myself doing good. But I also love that he has people around him making him have the hard conversations, you know. And I think I was very moved by the Suicide Squad, and I on my second watch, I was very moved by this movie. And I'm excited to see that spread because Mike Flanagan incredibly emotionally intelligent, interesting person. Anna Nagero, who's writing the Supergirl movie, really interesting credits, really interesting take. Also that Supergirl movie. The comic is very bleak but very beautifully illustrated by Bill quis everly, So, I think there's just so many tonally interesting and politically resonant things that we can get back to that we haven't necessarily had in the superho movies of both the DC or MCU honestly in general. So that's kind of I think what I'm what I'm most looking forward to.
01:01:23
Speaker 1: Okay, well, folks, thanks for joining us. I'm eager one of these days, in one of these upcoming roundtables, to talk about our favorite double dipping actors. Who are the actors who have played characters in both universes?
01:01:44
Speaker 2: I want to know, Let's do it. Let's do it in DC also as well, that's what we've got to do. We'll talk about the double dippers. Let's also talk about who has been the most superhero Character's almost comment. There's also because there's also triple dippers.
01:02:06
Speaker 1: There's triple divers if we count Star Wars, and quadruple dippers if we count Star Trek.
01:02:12
Speaker 2: So let's just red we're going to do about that.
01:02:16
Speaker 1: Coming up on X Rayvision, We're diving into more summer movies, more news, and of course the Fantastic for that's not for this episode. Thanks everyone, Bye bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason Scepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
01:02:31
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
01:02:35
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abuzafar.
01:02:38
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wack.
01:02:42
Speaker 1: A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
01:02:46
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi Our disc called Moderate Them