195 - Deconstructing the Meaning of Diversity, Equity & Inclusion with Meg Bolger

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What does it take to make workshops work?
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And how can we facilitate collaboration that takes and get to results?
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My name is Meram Hatner, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
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Today with me on the show, that's Mac Bolger.
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And we speak about uh diversity and inclusion and what it really means.
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Stay tuned for a passionate and sometimes controversial discussion.
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And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, scroll down to the show notes to download my free one-page summary.
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And now lean back to be inspired.
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Hi Meg.
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Hello.
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Welcome back.
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Thanks.
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Last time we recorded, um, the recording took two and a half hours.
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Yeah, I mean, so did the conversation.
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It wasn't just the recording.
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I think the conversation was even longer.
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Yeah, it was.
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Yes, um.
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So welcome back.
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And I usually start with a question, when did you start calling yourself a facilitator?
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And I'm aware that this question might trigger a different conversation.
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This time than last time.
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Okay, so should we start with that one again?
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I think I have the same answer though.
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Let's dive right into the conversation.
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We um briefly before hitting the record button, discuss what we could talk about.
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And diversity and inclusion was one topic, and our mindset towards our participants or the other topic, and somehow they're related.
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Yeah.
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So let's start with a harsh statement or provocative statement.
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Are we judging our participants?
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I think that the like I call it the myth of neutrality in facilitation.
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Like the idea that you are supposed to be going to be or are neutral is like a myth, I think.
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And I think it's a dangerous one in that I think it's far more productive to deal with your biases, like at least personally, deal with that them than it is to pretend that you're neutral.
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I used to teach people how to run gender and sexuality trainings, right?
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Like there was this three-hour curriculum that we had, and we would spend two days doing train the trainers, where we would teach people how to run this three-hour curriculum.
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And almost to a T, every single time we did that, people said, okay, so I know as a facilitator I'm supposed to be neutral.
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And we would be like, no.
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And we would literally like jokingly like hold up the curriculum and be like, this is Rainbow, right?
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Like this is coming from a perspective.
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This has a pro LGBTQ lens.
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Like this doesn't believe that all, you know, all viewpoints are equally valuable and equally desirable, right?
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Like this has a perspective.
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We want you to be pro-LGBTQ, right?
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Like, and so, but that doesn't mean, like, that doesn't mean that a participant who comes in and disagrees with that conclusion, that says something ignorant, that, or even says something that like is, you know, bigoted, that you shouldn't be able to receive that person as someone with the potential to learn something, right?
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Or the potential to change, or the potential to be like if you say, this is a safe space, we want you to bring your questions, your comments, your concerns, your ideas, your beliefs into this space, this is what it's for.
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It's a learning environment.
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And then you don't have the ability to hold people who disagree with you in a generous way.
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Like that is a problem.
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And that is so much better to me than neutrality.
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Because what people think they're aspiring to with neutrality is like, I'm not gonna shut anyone down.
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And I'm like, that you don't have to be neutral in order to not do that.
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I love that because it just points at different perspectives on the term neutrality.
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Because I think as human beings, we cannot be neutral.
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And if we were neutral, nobody would hire us as facilitators.
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Because if you're 100% neutral and can be replaced by n by a machine, basically, then you're not guiding the group into a direction, you're not provoking them, you're not maybe speaking out the non-set.
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And still I believe that a facilitator must be neutral in terms of the outcomes or the results of the conversation.
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Yeah.
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So for me, that's the neutrality that counts.
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So I don't want if I have already a set mindset of where the conversation, where the group is supposed to go, then I wouldn't call this a facilitated process.
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Sure.
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I mean, there's that, there's that language of like open to outcome, right?
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That I think is I think a like a cornerstone of a lot of facilitation is that like we're open to to the outcome.
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I think that some people are brought in to be facilitators of an outcome and you don't know how you're going to get the group there.
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Like, we know this is where we need to land.
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I need you to help me get the group there and and like get their buy-in.
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And some people I think would say, like, that's not facilitation, that's you know, something else.
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And I think other people would say, I'm making it easier for them to get there together and to move through a process and like that is okay.
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And I mean, like for me, with a lot of the social justice education that I did, I had a goal, you know, like it wasn't maybe going to be accomplished that day, but like I do want you to leave more open or for like the gender and sexuality work.
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Like, I want you to leave more open, curious, interested, you know, accepting of queer sexualities and non, you know, straightforward and normative genders.
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And like if that doesn't happen, like that's my I'm facilitating you towards a specific end, you know, but how you get there and whether you get there, what that means to get there today, like that's all really open.
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And I would like to connect this back to the first question.
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So if you have a very specific outcome or transformation, transformation for your participants in mind, you want them to leave as open-minded, better educated, more tolerant, and maybe even activated to take action.
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What if they don't go there?
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So, and I think, and this is where it becomes interesting.
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How can you have this specific goal for the behavioral transformation or even mindset transformation for them to happen without judging them?
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And then for me, this is relates to the core facilitation skill of neutrality.
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I would say the lack of judgment, or at least can we?
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Can we as humans stop judging our participants?
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And how do you deal with the fact that if someone doesn't leave the space with the new mindset that you aspired, how do you deal with it?
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Yeah, I've had so many thoughts on this.
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Okay, so I would say that the way you're using neutrality, I would replace with the word openness.
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That there is a level of openness that you need to have and a level of like equanimity, perhaps.
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Like this is, I would say, like for me.
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Like, I don't, I don't know if this is true for every facilitator.
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I think some people could probably do this in entirely different ways that would really work.
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But for me, like there's a level of like steadiness that I need to have in order, I think, for people not to, yeah, to not feel judgment shuts down people's ability to be curious, right?
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I think it's very hard to be curious and judgmental at the same time.
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And I think that when people feel judged, it they also move into a defensive stance, right?
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And so, as like a social justice facilitator, I am doing my best to avoid the need for you to defend yourself, right?
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Because that's not gonna get us anywhere unless I'm trying to like go into the defensive, like I want to bring it up so we can look at it, you know, like then I think it could be helpful.
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But most of the time, it's actually just going to serve as a block to like it's going to create like a barrier to where I want to go.
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And it puts it endangers the safe space that we are there to nurture.
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I think that if the space is supposed to be about education, exploration, open-mindedness, then any, then like defensiveness gets in the way of us being curious about what's going on, right?
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And so I want to not activate that in my participants as much as possible.
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Like I don't, I don't want you to feel like you have to defend yourself, right?
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I actually want to like do something else with you, right?
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I want to go other places.
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And I think the, yeah, what we want to do then with this, maybe even provocation is to help them to wonder, maybe even question their own or be curious about their own reflective process instead of defending and finding why they're reflecting on a certain topic the way they do, become curious about their own process.
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Yeah.
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I think that to me, like that's what you can facilitate that other people aren't going to do in other spaces, right?
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Is like for me, there was a lot of times where all of us, no matter like what mindset we're coming in with, that we were we were in it and we we didn't examine it or or question it, right?
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And that I what I what I wanted to do is inspire a like a curiosity or a potential like crack in in your in your belief system, right?
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And then be like, hey, let's like shine some light in there and like see what's going on.
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And to me, that yeah, that means like I want you to be curious about this thing that you're bringing here, right?
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Or I want to like reflect something that I'm seeing that maybe you haven't.
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But to me, like some of the thing that I'm asking you to do, be curious, be open, be like, you know, like explorative of our ideas here.
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If I'm unwilling to do that for you, like then it's a it's like a hypocritical energy that I think really shuts down a lot of the curiosity that you're wanting to inspire in other people.
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And if I can like respond to your question of like lack of judgment, I've read somewhere that like humans can't do negative commands, right?
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Like, don't think of a purple elephant.
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You have to go like purple elephant, don't.
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Oh, okay.
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Like, you know, like, or don't pet the dog.
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Your your brain goes like pet the dog, don't pet the dog, right?
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Like you have to do the positive command and then cancel it out.
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And so I don't think like there is, you know, in like maybe like Buddhist tradition, like a lack of judgment.
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Like, there's that kind of just like, I'm just not gonna have energy going into that system.
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I find that to be quite difficult.
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I think it's far easier to change the energy that you are applying than to suck the energy out of a system rather than to like say, I used to be really judgmental and now I'm really curious.
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And that's what I would say is like, I don't think that people should stop judging their participants.
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I think it's incredibly difficult to stop something.
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I think it is far easier to shift from like, if you are judging your participants, I want to invite you into being curious, like deeply take that same level of energy and move it into a curiosity place instead of into a judgment place.
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It's not a lack of judgment.
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I think it is a positive orientation towards something else.
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Because it also infects the way how we enter the room with judgment, always curiosity infects the entire space and the behavior that happens within that.
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And I still wonder we have such high expectations of our participants.
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In general, we want them to be open-minded and to be curious and to ask questions and to brainstorm, hence, to be creative, to think out of the box, to be collaborative.
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There's so many attributes we're expecting the individuals to have.
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And what if they don't?
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I think I don't think being curious and open-minded, it's so difficult.
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Can we actually expect that from our participants?
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And how do we deal with it if they aren't?
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It's a really good question about expectation of participants because my initial thought is like, I hope that they come.
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Okay, so here's what I would say.
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Like, I try to let people know what they're walking into.
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And I've I've like talked about this a couple different ways when I'm teaching people how to facilitate, right?
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I'm like, okay, you walk into this room and all the chairs are in rows, all facing the front.
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What type of like experience do you think you're about to have?
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Right.
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And they're like, I think we're about to do like a lecture.
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And I was like, cool.
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Now they're at tables, like facing each other.
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There's still like a front of the room, but like you're in like little pods.
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And they're like, yeah, okay, I'm like expecting to participate with each other, right?
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And that we're gonna do some like little small group work at some point.
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And I was like, okay, and if they're in a circle and there's no tables in front of them, what feeling comes up on that?
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And they're like, oh, we're about to like get super vulnerable and like, you know, like I feel very exposed.
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And like it's wild.
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If you put chairs in a circle versus chairs in a circle with desks in front of them, like the level of vulnerability is so different.
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Right.
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So to me as a facilitator, like I have different expectations of participants in either of all of those settings.
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And I think it's important to forecast the type of thing that you're about to do with people.
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If people walk in being like, I am about to get a lecture, and then they see chairs in a circle, they're going to be like, oh, I was not prepared, I did not drink enough coffee for this, you know, like, or I was not prepared for this this morning.
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And to me, like that's a mismatch of like expectation and reality.
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And what's tricky on Zoom is that that type of forecasting doesn't exist.
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It looks the same every time, right?
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So in online spaces, like I'm often trying to communicate to my participants ahead of time, this is what you can expect from the experience, right?
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Like it's going to be participatory.
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There's going to be breakout groups, like I'm going to have, you know, we're going to do some self-reflection.
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And that's to communicate some of the explicit expectations that I have of them.
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Right.
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But I don't actually usually curate their mindset much more than expectations around participation.
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Like, I don't say, like, come curious, come open.
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I usually say, like, come ready to participate.
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Come into us.
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That's going to happen, right?
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I'm going to ask you to participate.
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And like, there's still some people will drop off the call.
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Some people will not really talk in their breakout rooms.
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Like, those are ways that they still have agency in those, in those moments.
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And then to me, like everything that you were describing, I was like, no, that's my expectation of me.
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Like, my expectation is to far exceed where my participants are to make it easier for them to be here.
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Like, I'm holding my hands up, and most people are going to be listening to this.
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So, like, to me, if I want your curiosity to be at like a if I want you to have some curiosity, like, and it's at a three, like mine needs to be at a seven, you know, or an eight.
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Like, I have really high expectations of myself and the types of energy and the types of, yeah, like if I'm asking you to do something, I'm usually going to do it to a greater extent.
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Not in in all cases, like in the sense that I think you can be like overly vulnerable with your participants.
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And then I think that's actually kind of dangerous because it makes them take care of you, like in a way that I think is really unhelpful.
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But most of the time, with like curiosity, openness, like energy, I'm going to try to be higher than where I'm hoping you are.
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But to me, like, I don't have expectations of my participants being able to just do those things.
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To me, like as a facilitator, I have expectations that the structures that I have created, the environments that I am shaping will make it easy for you to do that.
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Will will like create uh where that is the path of least resistance for you.
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But I don't actually think it's like you just suck today and I did all I could.
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Like that's that can happen.
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But most of the time I find like you're not setting me up for success.
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Like there's times where Meg goes into a session as a participant, and I can come with like all the openness and energy in the world.
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But if the structures aren't set up for me to like succeed and they make me feel like uncomfortable or stunted or whatever, like the to me, it's we have a lot of power as a facilitator to invite people to to uh you know, to create a path of least resistance for people.
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And then they have to, you know, they have to go down and they have to match us.
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Thank you.
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I want to point out a few things.
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And one, I just want to articulate my awe of what just happened.
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So you were articulating with your hands, and we're so aware that although we're recording this and we see each other's videos, you still had the audience, the podcast audience in mind, and could in a split second catch yourself, oh I'm showing something that I'm not articulating, so I need to put some words into it so that those who only listen to us but don't see us can also follow.
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And I think this is just uh it shows the mastery of facilitation and just underlines of what you mentioned is this awareness of how the participants as opposed to uh to be and how you can make it easy for them to be themselves and to follow the structures, whatever you have designed for them.
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Okay.
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So thank you.
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Yeah.
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And um the other thing that came to my mind was that I totally hear you, and I uh I think that it's uh it's an art to really be able to have such high standards towards yourself and welcome the group and the participants where they are.
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And still at least I hear very often uh complaints about the ideas are not good enough, or they have the cameras off, or they are difficult personalities.
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And this is what I had in mind with my question, all this uh judgment around uh participants that consciously or unconsciously, because at some point we we fall in love with our designs.
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We we put so much care into our workshops and we think that we have thought of everything, and then just unthankful kids don't even see the beauty, don't even turn their cameras on.
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I do think that's a huge problem.
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Like I think I think that's a huge problem in the sense that we see them as the problem.
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And I think that that's like if your workshop needs your participants to show up in a very specific, like how narrow a window do they have?
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Like if they don't show up ready to participate, open, curious, like you know, willing to listen to each all these things, then the whole workshop isn't gonna work.
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I'm like, you know, like how flexible is your is your setting them up for success, yeah.
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And what is it?
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:30.880
And how flexible, how flex like if you need if you need very specific things for your workshop to work, then I would say, you know, that's great.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:34.720
Do it in a cohort where you can control that, right?
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:42.319
Or do like if you I think it's a real problem when facilitators decide that the participants are the problem.
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:50.960
Like if your workshop isn't working, then maybe you designed a workshop that doesn't meet the group, right?
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:56.559
Where they are, in this in the very literal sense of like, they're not willing to have their cameras on.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.160
What did you design around that?
00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.640
Okay.
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.759
Like that's not that's not them being a problem.
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:06.000
That is your design not being appropriate for how the group is showing up.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:13.519
Like to me, it kind of like alleviate when I hear facilitators do that, it it to me, it feels like we're alleviating ourselves of responsibility.
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:15.680
And we're just like, they sucked today.
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:26.880
And I'm like, what did you do all the things that you had the power to do in order to like match them, to like meet them there, you know?
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:35.759
Cause like, if I'll I'll ask a question of of the people when when I'm getting hired for online workshops and I'll say, like, what is the norm around cameras on or cameras off?
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:37.759
And they're like, oh, they're a pretty like camera on group.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.720
I'm like, okay, great.
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:51.519
And if they're not, then I can either say, I need just to communicate that that's an expectation ahead of time, or I can decide, okay, I have to be able to run this facilitation without their cameras on.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:55.519
And if I find that tricky, that's mine to figure out.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.160
That's not them to adjust to, right?
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:05.920
So I think like Me, there's a real there's sometimes we let ourselves off the hook and we just say, like, it's because my participants sucked.
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.480
And I'm like, Yeah, okay.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:12.400
And like, you can't control them, you only can control you.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:18.160
So, what are all of the rarely do I think have we done all we can, right?
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:24.400
Like, if you find it triggering that your participants have their cameras off, that's actually yours to deal with.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.640
That's not theirs to change, right?
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:31.920
Or you didn't communicate this expectation ahead of time and they, you know, showed up differently than you thought it was.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.839
It's not that you can't have difficult participants.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:46.880
I actually do think we have difficult participants, but I don't, I just think that like when it's the entire design is reliant on a particular, you know, like the group needs to show up like this or it doesn't work.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.440
Um, and you don't communicate those expectations up uh ahead of time.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.039
Like to me, a lot of my sessions don't work if people don't participate.
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:56.880
They just won't be three hour sessions.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:04.960
I can lecture them for like, you know, if you don't want to participate, we're gonna take a three-hour session and I'm gonna turn it into a 45-minute lecture and then we're gonna be kind of done, you know what I mean?
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.039
And it's not gonna be nearly as fun or interesting.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.319
So there my sessions don't work if people don't participate.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.240
And so I communicate ahead of time.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.400
There's an expectation of participation, and then I make it as easy as possible for you to participate, right?
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:24.720
Like it doesn't rely on participation in the large group the entire time, you know, like that kind of thing.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.480
And I think if it did, that would be on me to change.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.880
Thank you for clarifying that.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:32.400
I totally relate to that.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:38.799
And I must say that a brief from a client that says, usually the cameras are off.
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.079
Like, oh, ready for the challenge.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:47.519
It's one of my favorites to see how long it will take for them to turn the cameras on.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.920
And usually it's faster than expected.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:50.559
Yeah.
00:23:51.440 --> 00:24:05.359
And when I hear you speaking and all these uh design uh bits that we can do to really make sure that we get the engagement from the group, um, the engagement that we uh expect or hope for.
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.640
For me, it sounds like how can we make it uh inclusive?
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:21.200
So, how can we include uh all the types of uh possible participants to engage in the shape or form that they would like to?
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:31.680
So and inclusivity has been a buzzword over the past month or maybe year, and I think it's just the beginning.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:36.960
What does inclusivity mean to you and where do we get it wrong?
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:47.359
Well, I think some of the struggles that I have with diversity and inclusion work, especially with those terminology, is that they just mean so many things.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:52.960
And I think when that is true, people can use it for so many different purposes.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:58.640
And then we're we just don't have any agreement, and there's also just like no, there's no teeth behind it.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.359
There's no, there's no specificity, and therefore there's no way to hold people accountable to it.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.000
There's no agreed upon definition.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:09.920
So, like what you just said of like it's more inclusive, right?
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.920
I would say, yeah, it is.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:22.960
Like you're you're, I think if you're designing for lots of different types of participation, then you're going to get, you're more likely to invite a wider range of voices into the room.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:30.000
When I hear the terms diversity and inclusion, I often I put quotes around that.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:39.920
Like I often think of historically marginalized groups, historically marginalized populations, identities, power dynamics, right?
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.799
Like patriarchy, sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, right?
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.799
Like those words also come to mind.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:57.279
And I don't think the word inclusion in like what we just described, I don't think that inherently is dealing with power dynamics, right, in that same way.
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.480
I think it it might, but it also might not.
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:10.720
And a lot of to me, like one of the things that I find really tricky about a lot of diversity and inclusion work is that I think some people are like, we need diversity and inclusion work so that we can address racism.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:19.759
And other people are like, well, we just need to be more inclusive in general, you know, like, and and I'm like, okay, those are really different goals, right?
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:27.759
Like one is to like end structural oppression, or not even just structural, but just like it is to address like an oppressive system.
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:32.960
And one is to like make it easier for somebody to say something in a group.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:43.200
And like, it's not that those can't be related, but do we see how just enormously different those goals are in a practical sense?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.319
Or and that we use the word inclusion to mean both.
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:53.839
Like to me, like that's a that's a risky thing we do to make it that broad, right?
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.839
Of like, I want to run a more inclusive session.
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.359
And I'm like, use a different, like at this point, I would say use a different word to tell me what you want to do.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:03.279
I want the introverts to speak.
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:04.079
Perfect.
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:10.720
I want to make sure that the women in my session feel just as valued for their opinions as the men in my session.
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:11.359
Great.
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:22.480
I want to make sure the people of color know that their voices like really matter and that I'm not going to allow them to just be like shouted down because they're the minority in the room.
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:23.200
Perfect.
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:23.680
Right.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:31.519
I want to make sure that people who are neurotypical and neuroatypical have access to all of my information.
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:32.400
Great.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.559
Those are all things that people could mean by saying inclusive.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:45.440
And I don't think that it's likely that one person, when they're saying, I want my session to be more inclusive, is saying all of those things.
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:48.799
And I wonder.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.720
So thank you for for describing the complexity.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:28:12.480
And still wonder whether it could be at least when we have not the goal of creating more inclusive societies in the first step, but maybe more inclusive ways of communication or sessions.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:22.640
Whether it cannot be a design challenge, whether it's a design challenge that could cover all of the above.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:47.200
Isn't it the way how we invite groups in how we design for small group versus large group conversations, how we brief the individuals and participants before they are leaving into a breakout room to make sure that everyone there gets to speak independent of their gender, their color, their age, their status, abilities.
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.839
So I'll just give, yeah, I would say part of me wants to say yes.
00:28:51.920 --> 00:29:07.680
And part of me thinks that just the term diversity inclusion is used so broadly that I think there are times where like you actually don't want an inclusive session, you want something else, and you're you're but you're putting it under that umbrella.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.200
So let me see if I can come up with an example really briefly.
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.720
There are people I know who do diversity and inclusion work, right?
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.839
And if I said, like, what is your goal in this session?
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:28.640
They would say, for example, they might say, I want the people of color in the room to feel like they get to speak their truth and they get to speak like truth to power and share their stories.
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:36.720
And I really want the white people that they work with to like understand what it is like for them to work in this environment.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:37.119
Right.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.599
And I think a lot of people would hear that and go, yeah, that sounds like a DEI workshop.
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:52.240
That might be optimizing for particular people's voices, particular stories, and actually shutting down other people and saying, you don't get to talk.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:52.880
Right.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.799
And you might even say, like, okay, we're actually going to run a diversity inclusion session.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.440
This is only for people of color, right?
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:10.240
To be able to share that like space ahead of time so that when they come together as so we when we all come together as a large group, those people know like each other's stories already.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.880
They already have each other's backs, they're able to like, you know, be supportive in this particular way.
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.880
That first session, specifically exclusive, right?
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:21.920
Like you are not welcome here.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:27.359
And it is for what people would call inclusive reasons, right?
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:33.519
Like it is for like a DEI reason that we are creating exclusive exclusive spaces.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.319
Or we might even say, like, we're actually gonna do an experiment in this like 10 10 minutes.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.839
All the men in the room, you are not allowed to talk for the next 10 minutes.
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.759
You are only allowed to listen.
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.240
Is that an inclusive practice?
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.119
No.
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:52.319
But it is for a goal, right, that we put under this word inclusion.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.799
And then I think it confuses the shit out of people.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:02.240
I don't know if I'm allowed to swear, but like it really confuses people because then you have people who go, I thought this was about inclusion.
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:03.839
Why are you telling me I can't speak?
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:05.279
I thought you this was about inclusion.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:07.279
Why are you telling me I can't go to this session?
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:08.799
I thought this was about inclusion.
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.759
Why are you prioritizing blank blank blank?
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:17.759
And this is where I think we like really trip ourselves up is that like we have said inclusion is the goal.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:42.799
And then there are so many both like means and ways we get there that are specifically exclusive, like exclusionary practices that that are like supportive of that goal, but also like I'm not sure if that's what we mean all the time, like versus a more equitable society, a more like dignified society.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.960
Like, I'm not sure if inclusion is always the goal.
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:50.079
And and yet we use that language for it.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:57.519
And I think we've I think we pigeonhole ourselves into fighting things that I don't I don't think are worth.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:21.119
I I think that term is so big and so broad and so nonspecific that it's it's confusing to the average person, and that a lot of times we actually are trying to create exclusive spaces, men's groups, gay bars, like all of like there's those spaces exist, you know, in and to be for specific reason, for good reason.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:24.960
We like to hang out, they're not inclusion, they're not inclusive.
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.759
And and that's okay.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:36.079
Yes, uh, and I love the how with uh every every topic we just decompose the complexity.
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:40.640
And I wonder whether two things come to my mind.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:50.480
One is summer conversation that we had in public around discrimination and the value of positive discrimination.
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:56.079
So in Germany there was a huge debate and lots of women quota.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:03.519
In South Africa, there was affirmative action to get more people of color into management positions.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:09.680
So does positive discrimination is possible in order to reduce discrimination?
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.799
I think the same question could then come up.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:18.160
Is it okay to exclude in order to drive inclusivity?
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:18.799
Yeah.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:28.000
And then a related question to that, can we actually is it actually a goal to be 100% inclusive?
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:33.440
Because if we include everyone, don't we lose maybe also the purpose and the focus?
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:33.759
Yeah.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:38.160
And who are we excluding if we try to include everyone?
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.599
These are the questions that I just I'm not sure are worth.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:48.480
To me, that's we have created these questions by using a particular type of language to assert our goals.
00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:58.559
And to me, like that language is not, at this point, it is not descriptive enough that I feel motivated by it, that I feel like it drives me or pulls me in the right directions.
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:13.119
And instead, it leads us into like questions like this, where I'm just not sure they're worth getting into, in the sense that, like if if I was just like, let's just take the word inclusion, like I think this would be a worthy experiment.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:17.519
Like, let's just take the word inclusion out and like now tell me what our goal is.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.559
Interesting.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:24.000
I had a similar chain of thought with um what if we only focus on diversity?
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:50.239
So if the goal is to get different perspectives to be heard, to be included in a decision-making process, in a design process, in a development process, then the real goal is to empower different perspectives, and that's where the diversity comes in.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.920
And then does it really have to be such a loaded word like inclusion?
00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.719
Or is it I can probably do the same on diversity, but that's just me.
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.599
And it's and is it does it then boil down to accessibility?
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:12.800
So I don't know if this is relevant, but I think it's what comes to mind.
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:23.920
I'm reading a book right now about an organizer in the American South who so there's a particular part of the American South that has been like just incredibly poor.
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:31.039
Like the people of that region of Appalachia have just been historically incredibly poor folks.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:35.199
And yet the natural resources of that region are huge.
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:40.559
Like coal mines, and you know, like there's just incredible like natural resources.
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:50.960
And so those people have been exploited for like hundreds of years and had the wealth taken out of their region whilst while remaining poor.
00:35:51.280 --> 00:36:13.519
And the organizer of this book, or the subject of the book and and this organizer, like one of the things that he believes is like that the people need to be empowered to know that like they have the power to change their own lives and they have the power to organize with each other and to like be resourced with each other and to solve their own problems.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:29.199
And so, like, all of that, uh, he he's like such a facilitator in that way of just like, I'm gonna bring these people together, I'm gonna help them talk, I'm gonna help them realize that they can like do this and that they can organize together, and then they are going to solve their problems, right?
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:46.159
To me, the idea of people being alleviated from the suffering of poverty is like something that I think a lot of like diversity and inclusion work, like I think a lot of people would be like, yeah, like we want, you know, we don't want people to be as poor.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:48.320
We don't want people to be suffering unnecessarily.
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.960
We want people to have access to healthcare, we want all these things.
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.400
I would have put that under this like realm of social justice, right?
00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:03.280
And to me, racism, classism, sexism, exploitation, all of that is like wrapped up to me in social justice.
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.320
And then like some of it got brought over to DEI.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.280
Like some of like, you know, like people would be like, racism, like definitely a DEI issue, right?
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.000
Or like sexism, definitely a DEI issue.
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.039
Classism, like we're like, that's a little different.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:37.840
It doesn't, doesn't I think, pull over as quickly for people, probably because a lot of DEI comes in the corporate world, which has just no relationship to like uh it's a ton of relationship to poverty and and to exploitation, but not to we can't solve it the same way because that would actually undermine the like very structures that are hiring us to come in, right?
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:43.599
Anyway, I brought I brought all this up to say like that population of people is not diverse.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.639
Like, I mean, it's more diverse than you think it is, right?
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:53.360
But like they're like in in in the sense that it's it's not all white, it's not all one gender.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:58.559
It's but but like that has no relationship to what we think of as diversity.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:04.960
And I don't think that the the people you know in that space organizing themselves need to be diverse.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.079
Like, and they just need to be the people, right, who are suffering and have the problems.
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:21.280
They need to be the right people that are doing it and not necessarily like the NGOs and the nonprofits that come from all over the country to try to solve these people's problems.
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:28.320
Those companies could be or organizations could be incredibly diverse, and I don't think it would be more appropriate for like some.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:30.559
So very local issue.
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:31.039
Yeah.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.920
And so, like, again, like I just think I think it's become this abstraction.
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:37.760
I don't know if that example was helpful at all.
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.880
I don't think it was, but but like it's become this abstraction of like, we need diversity for diversity's sake.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:55.920
And I'm like, no, no, like we needed to recognize that we had a system that only allowed men to take, you know, ownership and responsibility and power for like many, many, many, many generations.
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.679
And we would like to correct that imbalance now, right?
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:03.039
Or like we see the need to correct that imbalance.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:11.199
And so it's going to look like we're getting more diversity where we're just kind of like trying to correct this, like this imbalance.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.480
And there are these like structures and systems we might need to do that.
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:20.559
But to me, like, I don't know, to me, like diversity also can feel very hollow.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:27.679
Like, and it can feel, and my problem as a this is the part, Miriam, where I'm just like, I don't know if any of this is helpful for your podcast.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:34.159
But like to me, like, I really care about alleviating the suffering of of like the structural oppressions that exist.
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:38.559
And I think there's some ways that diversity has absolutely nothing to do with that.
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:54.559
And I believe that you can have you can have a lot of like diversity and inclusion goals that don't share any of the politics that feel like they get assumed by certain people when they're describing diversity and inclusion goals, right?
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:04.559
And I think that's really dangerous that that like somebody could be like, you know, like there's just incredible inequity that is pervasive.
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:10.880
And yet there's a lot of goals that we have that are are about correcting this like surface level inequity.
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:12.960
And we have to start somewhere.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:28.079
And so if I'm thinking if we started at school levels, we can have school schools for boys, schools for girls, schools for people of color, schools for people from a certain social class, we can have all these, right?
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:41.840
And if so, if from a very young age there's no diversity in the upbringing, then we'll have very different outcomes in when these people grow up, right?
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:57.119
So the earlier we start to bring diversity into the spaces, the less likely we are to end up with stubborn, ignorant, confrontational, intolerant adults.
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:06.239
So yes, I think it's it might be a buzzword that is overused at the moment.
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:09.119
Oh, we can solve world problems with DEI.
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.360
Maybe not.
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:43.199
And maybe the very first step is actually to apply more of what we consider basic facilitation skills of inclusivity, of bringing people together, of flattening the room, of listening to our voices, of uh being open-minded, that this might actually have more impact than putting the label on every door and pretending that it's a big topic and bringing diversity into conversations that maybe don't need more diversity.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:57.760
I think to me, what I would just say is that I would love, like on a very practical level, I would love us to anytime somebody says diversity, equity, and inclusion, I would love them to describe what they're talking about without using any of those words.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:04.639
Because I think that they will get much more specific and much more usable if we start doing that.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:09.199
If they said, like, I think we need to have more diversity in this space.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:16.559
I if I was like, okay, can you say that again, but don't use the word diversity, I think people would probably go, I'd like to see more women and people of color here.
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:17.920
Great.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:20.079
Like, cool, perfect.
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:27.599
We can now like decide what that means, decide what is more, figure out how to do it, right?
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:34.719
But I think if they say, I want more diversity, somebody could very earnestly say, You're right, we don't have enough conservatives.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:36.880
We need more diversity of thought.
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.000
And people do this.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:45.280
And they some, and we, I think there's a lot of spaces I'm in where people go, and I'm like, that is diversity.
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:51.119
Everyone here agrees, everyone here voted for the exact same person, you know, in the in the last national election.
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:53.199
So, like, that's a fair critique.
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.320
And they're like, no, it's not.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:58.320
And I'm like, no, because when you said diversity, you meant women and people of color.
00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:02.639
When they said diversity, they meant political orientation.
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:08.159
And neither of you said the second part, which is what do you mean by diversity?
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:08.639
Right.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:11.760
And to what end do we hope that that will accomplish?
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:12.159
Right.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:20.719
Because somebody could say, well, most of our clients, like 50% of our clients are women, and yet everybody here making this decision about this is not.
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:22.159
So I think that's bad.
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:35.599
You know, like, cool, perfect, you know, or like there's so much more useful information that can happen when we start being more specific, and we can stop having an argument about whether diversity is for this or this.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:37.599
Instead, we can say, I don't agree.
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.320
I don't think we need more political diversity, or I don't think we need more diversity of thought.
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:44.880
I think we need more diversity of experience and identity.
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.840
And we can have that debate instead of having a debate about do we need more quote diversity?
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:50.239
You know?
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:58.880
So I that would be my like those words are too big and broad to be effective at this point, or to even communicate what you mean.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.599
Thank you.
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:02.719
I love the passion.
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:10.559
And I love the exercise to okay, what do you mean explain without using the words?
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:12.800
I think that's really magic.
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:23.599
And while listening to you, I was wondering whether it's so easy to hide behind the buzzwords in order to exactly avoid that.
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.760
Because suddenly you have to take a stance.
00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.840
So do you want more women?
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:29.119
And what does it mean?
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.960
Because suddenly you become accountable for your actions.
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:42.239
So I think if in a DEI workshop, and I think there are many of those these days, you would actually break that down and say, okay, what does it really mean?
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:49.920
Then very quickly you are in an action designing stage that feels very scary to most.
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:50.960
Yes.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:45:03.360
And this is why, this is why, like I, you know, like I'm passionate about this because I spent many years, I think, having conversations that weren't worth having, helping people define what we meant by diversity and inclusion.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:05.920
Like those are exercises I have done and run.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:06.800
And you know what?
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:18.079
I don't think they did anything to move any of it forward in a way that the same sentence of just like, I mean, so what's funny about that sentence I said of like say it, say it again, but use different words.
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:20.880
That is a thing I use in facilitations now.
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:26.880
Anytime we're used, but anytime people are using buzzwords, because I think it is so unhappy.
00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:31.280
Buzzwords create such incredible stories in our heads, right?
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:41.599
And they communicate to me, a lot of people like they communicate entire viewpoints and opinions about you, right, just by using particular words.
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:41.920
Right.
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:58.639
If you said fake news a few years ago, then I knew exactly what I was like, I got, I know what kind of political environment you're in, I know the type of news you watch, I know who you voted for, and I've got all these, and I, and I know how to dismiss you as somebody I'm not gonna bother with, right?
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:01.519
Like just from the word fake news.
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:10.719
And so to me, versus if if I was like, say that again, but don't use that term, and they were like, I have a real distrust in the media.
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:16.960
I could be like, yeah, me too, you know, like absolutely tell me about yours, right?
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:20.480
And or like tell me what you mean and why, you know, how that affects your life.
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:27.039
Like, that's a strategy that I use to stay open to people is tell me, say that again, but use different words.
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:43.280
But I also think in this particular case with diversity and inclusion, like we do avoid a lot of hard work of the next steps by getting stuck in the language and the like big picture thinking, because we don't know what the next step is.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.159
And we don't all agree about what it means to do it.
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:55.360
And we can stay avoidant by just staying at the high-level intellectual jargon of it all.
00:46:56.239 --> 00:47:04.000
And I yeah, it almost sounds as if um the buzzword create a an illusion of agreement.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:07.760
Or or a deep illusion of disagreement.
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:11.280
Yeah, so we if we use it's polarization.
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:13.280
They the buzzwords create a lot of polarization.
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.280
It's easy to say yes, yes, yes.
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:15.840
I agree.
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:18.159
Um we want more transparency.
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:18.639
Yes.
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:21.360
Okay, so we'll disclose your monthly salary.
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.360
Oh no, no, no, no, it's not that kind of transparency that I voted for.
00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:26.880
Absolutely.
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:44.960
On the other hand, it's um it also buzzwords also, that's what I got from your uh fake news example, create the illusion of in-group or it's a lingo through which you can differentiate yourself or find your tribe.
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:45.679
Yes.
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:50.559
And that that is actually what a lot of us are doing by using particular language.
00:47:50.800 --> 00:48:00.400
Like if I want to cue to you that I'm a particular type of person, I can use certain types of like I can use certain words to communicate that.
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:03.760
But acronyms, which are highly exclusive.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:04.480
Totally.
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:15.199
So by using lingo and by using acronyms, we're excluding those who don't understand, who don't know, who haven't been educated, or who are not part of the in-group.
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.199
But I think, yeah, and I I absolutely, they're exclusive.
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:37.039
But I think I I guess the point I wanted to make is that a lot of times we're like in some like DEI conversations that I have been in, or in some of those environments that I have been in, people are like, well, I just I was like fighting with this person, you know, like I was disagreeing with them, I was trying to challenge them, I was trying to educate them.
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.199
And I'm like, No, you weren't.
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:45.599
You were trying to cue to your crew of people that you are one of them.
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:49.760
And you were trying to show that you're one of the good ones, right?
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:54.320
Like, and so there's this, there's this rule called the iron law of institutions.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.360
Have you ever heard of this?
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:55.679
No.
00:48:56.159 --> 00:49:02.639
So the iron law of institutions says that we are likely to make, I think it's around, I know very little about this.
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:05.599
So if somebody knows more, apologies, please correct me.
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:17.840
So what I was introduced to it by is basically that you are going to make choices that actually indicate to people that you're a good person within your group more than advancing your group's cause.
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:27.119
So, like if say within the Democratic Party, one of the goals is to, which I don't know if it is really, but like is to get Medicaid for all, right?
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:48.239
Medicare for all to pass that type of legislation, that somebody in the iron law of institutions, rather than making like moves that would advance that cause, you will make a move that will actually just make you be seen within the Democratic Party as like a really good Democrat, but that doesn't advance the cause.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:58.000
And that like to go against the iron law of institution would be to be willing to advance your cause, even if it makes you less popular within your group.
00:49:58.719 --> 00:49:59.119
Right.
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:02.719
And that most people won't.
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:03.199
Yeah.
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:04.880
Like most people don't.
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:09.840
They want to be seen within the people that they care about being judged positively by.
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:13.199
They want to make moves that are that, right?
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:19.280
So, in my example of like two participants having an argument, I'm like, you're not trying to change that person's mind.
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:29.840
Because if you were, you would be listening to them, you'd be looking for points of agreement, you'd be open, you wouldn't be shouting, you wouldn't be using buzzwords, because none of those things work, right?
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:35.920
But what you're doing a great job of is half this room thinks you're the shit now.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:39.599
You know, like half this room is like, yeah, Meg knows what's up.
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:48.639
Meg's coming with all of the like, you know, like with all of the big hitters and like coming with all the ideas, but it's not gonna change anything.
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:49.679
Right.
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.960
And my but my group's gonna know I'm one of them.
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:53.840
Yeah.
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:56.320
And we make choices like that all the time.
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:00.559
And it's it is exclusive, and it's to show I'm part of this group.
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:00.960
Yeah.
00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:10.559
And when we let go of the jargon, and when we, I think, actually extend ourselves towards people and say, like, tell me why you believe that.
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:11.840
I want to know.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:19.199
Like that curiosity actually can make other people less trusting of us, but can make a much bigger difference.
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:20.079
Yeah.
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:26.079
Reminds me of the Adam Grant's book Think Again, which is amazing.
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:29.280
How to change people's minds, actually, really.
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:33.039
And your your example is spot on.
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:40.960
And I wonder what this actually means in our daily work of facilitating group conversations.
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:52.559
So, how often are we actually getting trapped in these kind of conversations where it's only about looking good and being liked and feeling liked?
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:55.440
And I think I wouldn't judge that need.
00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:06.079
I think it's a instinctive human behavior because a sense of belonging and being accepted by our tribe is just a survivor need.
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:06.639
Yep.
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:09.760
So I think instinctively we all do that.
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:12.239
And we do have the choice.
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:15.840
So we don't have to do that once we're conscious.
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:30.880
I think that to me, one of my like probably larger growth points as a facilitator, and ideally, I don't, I this isn't to say I'm over it, is that like being liked by the group was really, really, really important to me.
00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:40.000
And I made a lot of choices at the beginning of my facilitation like journey where I would make it so that these people would know I'm on their team.
00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:41.440
Right.
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:54.000
And to me, like that is like a to circle back to that like idea of neutrality, like that I think is a really dangerous type of move, is when you're like, I'm not gonna do this for the good of the group.
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:56.320
I'm not doing this for the good of the group.
00:52:56.480 --> 00:53:01.280
I'm not doing this so that I can advance the, you know, explicit outcomes and goals.
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:05.519
I'm doing this because I want these people to know I'm one of them.
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:10.800
And to though, I want that, even like I want that person to like me.
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:17.199
You know, like I've I've absolutely made choices where I was like, I'm doing this so that one person goes, yeah.
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:34.880
And that I think is a really like human thing, but I think it's a really dangerous thing as a facilitator to be that level of like in this case, like bias and willing to not hold back from that and decide, I'm here for the good of the group.
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:38.880
I mean, that's one of my beliefs as a facilitator is like, I'm here for the good of the group.
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:52.559
And that means like I'm not going to abandon any of my participants and like let if they like sometimes it feels like your participants like chuck themselves overboard, like they say something and you're just like, that was so out of left field.
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:59.599
And it's like we're all on this boat and we were going on this journey, and then they just jumped all overboard and you're like, what?
00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:02.239
And everyone's like, uh, that was garbage.
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:03.519
Can we leave him behind?
00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:05.199
You know, like can we keep going?
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:14.639
And to me, like as a facilitator, there have been times where I'm like, yeah, he's done, you know, and it's not, it's not a like, he needs to be removed from the space.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:23.760
It's not that kind of thing, but it's more that like, I can just let him go out to sea and let everybody judge him and let and be like, you're on your own, man.
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:26.400
You jumped overboard and I am not saving you.
00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:26.880
Right.
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:35.920
And I think for me as a facilitator, that's a really dangerous choice because then everyone knows, oh my God, if I jump overboard, Meg's also not going to save me, you know?
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:41.599
And we all get a little more nervous about the like safety raft uh and whether it's gonna come get us.
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:44.719
So beautiful example, yeah.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:50.800
Because it also, yeah, it's uh what is this why are you doing this job?
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:59.199
In and then again, the inclusivity, even if it hurts, including the voices that hurt.
00:54:59.760 --> 00:55:00.239
Yeah.
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:18.239
I think that this is a really like philosophical belief of mine, you know, and it is that I want to in my spaces, I would like to create a world that a very particular world and a very particular experience of the world when you're in my spaces.
00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:21.840
And one of those is that you are not going to be abandoned.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.000
Like, you are not gonna be abandoned.
00:55:24.159 --> 00:55:28.320
There's nothing that you can say that won't make me extend towards you.
00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:43.599
Now, there might be times where you're gonna say something where I'm like, I can't, like, it's very, very rare, but like it's possible that someone could come in with just so much vitriol that I might be like, I tried, you we can't, bye-bye, right?
00:55:43.679 --> 00:56:01.039
Like, it's not to say that I don't have boundaries, but like beyond the extreme cases where I'm like, this is absolutely vitriolic hatred that just can't be present in this space, other than those extreme cases, I'm going to go get you.
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:05.920
Like, I'm gonna be like, oh, even if I have to be like, I don't want to do this, but whatever.
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:10.079
I'm gonna jump over the side of the boat and swim out and come in and get you.
00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:13.039
And like, you're not gonna just be thrown out to sea.
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:21.119
And that's what's unique about that space is like you can say something, and I will not go, you are on your own.
00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:22.960
I am not gonna drive the bus over you.
00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:26.159
I am not gonna let like versus like I'm gonna go out there.
00:56:26.239 --> 00:56:33.440
It doesn't mean I agree with what you said, but I'm not gonna let you be attacked and I'm not gonna let you be for like left behind.
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:45.039
And I totally see the beauty in it, and I see the urgency or the meaning because of what you mentioned, the signal it sends to the remaining group.
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:51.039
So if you leave one behind, then yeah, parts of the safe space is gone.
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:55.920
It's like talking to children, you can only come back to the table if you behave.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:58.559
So only if you're a kind of nice person.
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:04.000
Otherwise, you're not you're not belonging here, and that's not the space that we want to create.
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:14.719
Uh on the other hand, and I'm I don't have the answer, and I um just curious, how where's the balance between endangering the dynamics of the entire group?
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:24.000
Yeah, and because yes, it's okay to slow down the entire group to make sure that everyone is on board and has a has a place in the ship.
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:39.039
On the other hand, if you don't want the the full ship to fall over just because the skipper is busy swimming after the one person and then basically leaves the ship behind.
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.039
So, how do you balance that?
00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:44.159
So the way I would say that I have two answers.
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:50.559
One is the amount of time and control that you give to the person who jumped overboard, right?
00:57:50.880 --> 00:58:01.920
Like, if I think there is an amount of time where time and energy and attention where I think it's totally appropriate and be like, I'm coming to get you, you're coming back on board, then we are moving on, right?
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:07.039
But like you can't give them the anchor to the ship, you know?
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:11.039
And like you can't give them the power to steer the boat.
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:13.840
Those are two really like important things.
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.000
And I think that's there's a couple of things.
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:23.039
So one answer of mine is like an order of operations that like, I'm gonna get you back on, but then we're gonna do something else, right?
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:28.559
Like we're gonna, we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep moving, but you get to be like wet and drippy over there, right?
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:31.840
But you're here and you're back, and we're we can we move, we can move on now.
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:36.880
So I have to attend to you first, and then I can move on.
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:43.280
And I think the only reason that people trust me when I do that is because I don't let go of the power.
00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:53.760
Like, I'm not, there's a difference between like, I mean, physically there's a real difference, and I've done this where like I'm handing you the mic versus I'm holding the mic out to you.
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:54.480
Right.
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:56.480
And I'm like, okay, I'm willing to listen.
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:59.039
Here's here you talk into the mic, right?
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:00.079
But I'm holding it.
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:02.800
And at any point I can be like, ooh, you are done.
00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:04.400
You are done now, right?
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:12.960
Like, and that I think is a really important power dynamic to maintain is that like that person doesn't get to become the captain.
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:27.360
And that's when we don't trust what's that's when I think like the the whole ship becomes in danger, is when they are given too much power to control it, and that you haven't maintained your center and your ability to like steer what's happening.
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:28.239
Yes.
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:30.800
Awesome example, once again.
00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:37.119
And what I hear is it also depends with what intention the person jumps off the boat.
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:47.840
Is it the power game to distract you and to sabotage or boycott the session just for the pleasure of it?
00:59:48.000 --> 01:00:22.159
And there are there are people like that who just find the joy in sabotaging, or is it really someone who has such a different belief or uh is shaken by the the content that then uh there is uh a potential opportunity in getting this person back because you need this it's uh quote negative energy or it's conflictual energy that can be used for something productive.
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.360
Yeah, and it's not destructive per se.
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:26.880
And I think that's the difference.
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:28.239
That's such a good point.
01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:29.360
I think that's such a good point.
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:34.960
And to me, like it's really so if somebody was like, How can you tell the difference?
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:35.840
Right.
01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:46.000
To me, it would be that like if I extend generosity, uh like a generous story towards them and assume they're not trying to capsize the boat, right?
01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:49.119
Like, I need to go in with that assumption.
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:58.000
And then I think they it when you go in with that assumption, their next action, I think, is probably going to tell you where it's coming from more distinctly.
01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:03.440
I think it's dangerous when we're like, oh my God, every person who jumps over the side is trying to capsize the boat.
01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:06.079
And it's like, no, that's not inherently true, right?
01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:20.559
Like there's very specific, like I have had many examples of a participant who was like, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, like say said something that was dismissive or argumentative or or you know, just like really different than the vibe everybody else was on.
01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:30.239
And if I had just dismissed them, I think it would have been, if my first move to them would have been like, you are just trying to derail stuff, right?
01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:35.199
Like, and that's where I think the like some people are like, what do you do with the devil's advocates?
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:37.519
I'm like, well, don't relate to them as devil's advocates.
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:45.440
Like that can't be your like, if that's your first story about that person, it's really going to shape how you interact with them.
01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:51.599
And I think for me, I need to be able to make an initial story that is generous of that person.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:03.119
Like, there's a workshop that I ran recently that's about this, where I have people, there's this theory of needs, Glasser's choice theory has five core needs that every human has.
01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:09.519
And one of their security, freedom and fun, love and belonging, power and recognition.
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:12.239
I can't, uh now I'm not gonna, I should have done them in order.
01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:21.840
Anyway, so there's these five core needs, but one of the beliefs in this in this system is that we are gonna get these needs met in healthy or in unhealthy ways.
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:22.480
Right.
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:29.440
And so I tell this story about a participant, and then I say, okay, look at this person through the lens of needs.
01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:33.119
Like, tell me what that story is, right?
01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:40.000
Like, tell me what, like, how would you justify, understand, relate to his behavior, right, through this lens of needs.
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:40.880
And everyone can do it.
01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:46.960
They're like, he was looking for security in this way, he was looking for love and belonging in this way, he was looking for power and recognition in this way, right?
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:48.079
And I was like, cool.
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:52.719
And then I tell, I give this model of ignorant, stupid, evil.
01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:58.960
And that's how we relate to people who, when we think we're right and we think they're wrong, we go through these series of assumptions.
01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:00.639
Ignorant, stupid, evil.
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:03.519
TED talk by Catherine Schultz.
01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:11.119
And I think, especially around politics, especially around DEI stuff, like ignorant, stupid evil, super powerful pattern, right?
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:15.440
And then I say, okay, now look at this guy through ignorant, stupid evil.
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:18.320
Now tell me the stories that you're making about him.
01:03:18.559 --> 01:03:20.880
Now tell me what how do you justify his behavior?
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:31.920
How do you understand what and people talked about how different they saw him when they saw him through those mindsets, right?
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:35.760
They were like, if I look for needs, superhumanizing him.
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:39.920
Like I'm he's a person in a situation, right?
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:46.239
And I was able to come up with a ton of needs that he wasn't getting met and that he was trying to get met in these unhealthy ways.
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:55.199
And and I had a lot of compassion for him, and I was able to just be like, hey, you know, like, and I it totally made sense, like in this story.
01:03:55.360 --> 01:04:03.599
Um, like it totally made sense, like what you how how you extended towards him and how you met him, and like, you know, why you were able to do that.
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:24.079
And then when we went from the ignorant, stupid evil framework, they were like, oh, like he he became this like archetype of just this like shitty person, you know, who's like a particular type of participant, who's this ignorant, you know, stupid white man who's coming in and saying all this ignorant biased stuff.
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:31.039
And I, I, you know, it felt like he was attacking me and it was so personal, and and I just had no time or energy for him.
01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:31.599
Yeah.
01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:36.719
Same dude, same story, totally different mindsets.
01:04:37.519 --> 01:04:38.079
Yes.
01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:44.320
What I what I recognize is with the ignorance, stupid, evil lens, we make it about us.
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:53.360
And most of the times we consider someone ignorant, stupid, or evil when we feel triggered or attacked by their behavior.
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:55.280
Yep.
01:04:56.239 --> 01:05:01.840
And if we if we use the the lens of the basic needs, we make it about them.
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:09.280
And we remember that they're like the thing is what's amazing is that you don't have to know their intentions.
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:36.400
You can actually, to me, like this story that I tell, like, I think the fact that I related to him as a person in that moment and decided to throw him a life raft and bring him back on board, you know, like actually changed everything because he was totally ready for me to dismiss him.
01:05:36.719 --> 01:05:37.039
Right.
01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:40.159
He was like, he was actually like, I think, looking for a fight.
01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:49.360
Like, I think that there was a way in which he was like, you people, you know, and was so ready for me to come back with like, well, you people, you know?
01:05:49.519 --> 01:05:52.719
And because I didn't, he was like, uh, what?
01:05:52.880 --> 01:05:55.039
And I was like, grab the dinghy, hold it.
01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:59.360
And the the beauty is that you might have done some deep healing.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:15.920
Inner child work where something triggered this poor person of feeling dismissed as a child all day long and was kicked out of the house and was just seeking the same kind of known sensation.
01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:21.039
And there you went to rescue him and bring him on board and giving him a sense of belonging.
01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:26.320
And this might have some deep impact.
01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:35.519
And I think what's to me like if my story changes my moves towards him, and then he doesn't meet me there.
01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:37.599
He's still trying to bring down the ship.
01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:41.519
That's when you decide for the good of the group, I need to let you go.
01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:41.920
Yeah.
01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:42.400
Right.
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:45.599
Or for the good of the group, I'm not going to let you participate anymore.
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:48.719
Or, you know what, I gave you some time to talk.
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:51.039
You are continuing to take up a lot of space.
01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:57.199
And this has become about you instead of about us and what's potential for us to do together.
01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:00.960
And I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and like cut this off.
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:01.440
Right.
01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:06.239
I think all of those are totally worthy choices to make.
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:12.800
But I think sometimes we feel like we have to make that choice first before we do any of the connection stuff.
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:16.719
Like, I have to cut this person off because they're saying really harmful things.
01:07:16.800 --> 01:07:27.840
And I'm like, I wonder if you can extend to them first, see if they will actually, you know, like kind of redirect or correct themselves.
01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:30.719
And then you can decide to move on.
01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:31.519
Yeah.
01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:35.840
So what is the driver of our actions and our decisions?
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:40.639
Is it our assumption of a specific behavior or driver?
01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:44.000
Or are these the facts that we can actually see?
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:45.360
Sure.
01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:52.719
I think that's in the nonviolent communication like world, the like, I'm just stating a bunch of facts and I'm not making judgments about them.
01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:54.239
I think that's a really beautiful thing.
01:07:54.400 --> 01:07:56.000
I think I find that really difficult.
01:07:56.159 --> 01:08:00.639
And so I actually create generous stories rather than ungenerous ones.
01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:01.920
I don't create neutral stories.
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:05.760
I'm not good at the like, here's a, you know, here's a bunch of facts.
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:13.599
Like I'm actually, I think, less good at that as I am at being like, what would be the most generous story I could make about this person and their actions?
01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:18.239
And if I can come up with that, then I can be like, okay, if that was happening, what would you do?
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:22.880
And wonderful because it you're aware of what kind of person you are.
01:08:23.119 --> 01:08:31.359
And hence you're creating a nudge for yourself or system for yourself that helps you to deal with the situation that might be challenging for you.
01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:32.000
Yeah.
01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:48.159
People think I'm very unjudgmental because I'm able to be quite generous with people, but I actually think it's because I'm incredibly judgmental and I have just retrained that muscle to continuously activate a curiosity or a generosity thing.
01:08:48.399 --> 01:08:49.439
Like that's the thing.
01:08:49.520 --> 01:08:51.520
Like I have a lot of judgment energy.
01:08:51.680 --> 01:09:00.239
I just have shifted it slowly over into like make generous stories of people because I make a ton of stories of people.
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:00.960
Yes.
01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:08.079
And at the end of the day, I think the more judgmental we are towards others, the more judgmental we're actually towards ourselves.
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:10.560
Yeah, that's that's my number one target.
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:12.640
It's just us projecting on.
01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:14.800
I mean, it's the same for all of us, right?
01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:21.680
We're just projecting on others all the stuff that uh we're dealing with between our ears.
01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:27.840
And then um, as facilitators, we are finding ways and how do we channel that?
01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:29.920
It's so funny.
01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:38.399
I don't know why this really just striking me with you saying that, but like I have trained myself to make incredibly generous stories of other people.
01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:50.000
And this is something that like I do, I think I started in facilitation stuff of like, I need to be able to justify their behavior in a way that allows me to make a generous move towards them.
01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:55.439
Because those are the moves that are to me, like those are the moves, those are the only breakthroughs I've ever had.
01:09:55.760 --> 01:10:05.119
Like maybe some around boundaries where I'll just cut someone off and people will be like, wow, I didn't know you could just decide that that was enough and that that can be helpful too.
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:10.560
But even that is like a to me, like it's still like a generous, it can, it can still come from a really generous place.
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:17.039
And I'm just, I'm just struck by you saying that, you know, like when we're really judgmental of others, we're incredibly judgmental of ourselves.
01:10:17.119 --> 01:10:19.680
And I was like, I don't think I've turned that around.
01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:28.159
I don't think I've turned that power that I have done so much for other people of like creating generous stories of my participants of people in the world.
01:10:28.319 --> 01:10:38.079
I don't think I've turned that around on myself and decided, like, instead of judging yourself, you are gonna create incredibly generous stories of all of your actions.
01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:41.840
Maybe that's a good call to action there.
01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:43.840
It's a good call to action.
01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:44.720
Yeah.
01:10:46.560 --> 01:10:47.119
Yeah.
01:10:47.439 --> 01:10:59.279
So I do think you said you, you know, you asked a question a while ago of what about if they don't leave the space changed and um, or you don't see the change that you wanted to inspire in someone?
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:00.640
Like, what do we do?
01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:11.119
And to like put another image that I think is really important into the world, like, and I hear this language, people say it a lot, but I don't think we take the wisdom of it, which is planting a seed.
01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:23.119
Like, I think that what we do a lot is plant seeds, or we I think that's a really, really great thing to consider.
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:36.640
That like when you take some sort of action, like when you, you know, put out an idea or are challenging somebody's beliefs that you're planting a seed and that you don't usually get to see it sprout.
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:46.079
Like that would be incredibly fast growth, you know, and that you're watering, or or that like maybe those seeds are already there and you're just watering it a little bit, right?
01:11:46.399 --> 01:12:02.720
And to me, the like the generosity part is like the softening of the ground that like you might like if you just like drop, just dump a bunch of seeds out, like you know, like they just sit on top of the ground and they haven't been like you haven't softened the ground for them to be in.
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:13.600
And I think that's what happens when you extend towards people and you create generous stories of them and you like say, like, that makes sense that you believe that, even if I fundamentally disagree with it.
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:24.000
Like it, you are you are that defensiveness, like to bring us to like full circle, like that defensiveness of like that barrier or that protectiveness, right, is to me like that hard ground.
01:12:24.399 --> 01:12:35.600
And when I can say, like, that makes sense even if I disagree with you, or that sounds painful, or you know, I think if I had your life experience, I would believe that too.
01:12:35.840 --> 01:12:38.960
All of those to me are like softening the ground techniques.
01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:41.359
And then I'm gonna plant a seed.
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:48.880
I'm gonna be like, but here's why I think differently, or like, here's something you're not seeing, or that feeling is exactly what we're talking about.
01:12:49.039 --> 01:12:56.399
And why a lot of people think that diversity is so important is because of the, you know, this exact thing that you're pointing out, whatever it is.
01:12:56.640 --> 01:12:58.239
That's the seed, right?
01:12:58.560 --> 01:13:02.239
And then maybe I can water it a couple other times in the session.
01:13:02.319 --> 01:13:07.279
Like maybe there's gonna be other times where they're like, oh, interesting, right?
01:13:07.680 --> 01:13:11.119
But so rarely am I gonna get to see that sprouted.
01:13:11.279 --> 01:13:13.600
Sometimes it's a miracle when it happens.
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:22.479
When people change in front of us, I think we should consider that a small miracle because that is so tremendously difficult to do.
01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:39.600
Like to take in feedback that challenges something or information that challenges something in you, to let go of your old story and to create a new one in front of people, not just one person, a group of people is such a vulnerable act.
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:44.720
And when it happens, I think it is a tiny miracle and which it like, which totally works for me.
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:46.800
And I've seen it and it can happen, right?
01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:50.319
We do sometimes are like, oh my God, the thing sprouted, amazing, right?
01:13:50.479 --> 01:14:00.720
But I think we should like assure and understand in ourselves that like just because it doesn't change in front of us doesn't mean that's not growing and doesn't mean we didn't plant the seed.
01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:10.000
And I think that in a lot of my work, I see people wanting people so desperately to change their ideas right then and there.
01:14:10.159 --> 01:14:14.800
And I sometimes joke that that is when we are planting trees on people.
01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:16.640
Like we're just like wham.
01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:24.800
And like to me, when you replant something that already has grown, it doesn't take as well.
01:14:25.039 --> 01:14:30.319
It like is very unstable because it hasn't rooted itself in that place, right?
01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:35.920
It's not their belief, it's your belief that you're trying to like transpose onto them.
01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:41.439
And so, like, I think that's I think it's a very understandable want.
01:14:41.520 --> 01:14:44.800
And I think it is something that I have in me for sure.
01:14:45.119 --> 01:14:50.560
You know, the more personal and important something is to me, the more I want you to believe what I believe, right?
01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:55.359
And the more tempting it is to try to give you my thing whole hog, right?
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:57.039
And just be like, here is the whole thing.
01:14:57.119 --> 01:15:02.399
You don't have to grow the tree, you just go ahead and take that tree, and then we can be good, you know.
01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:04.079
But it's not theirs.
01:15:04.239 --> 01:15:07.680
It's not, it doesn't, it won't have the staying power.
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:11.279
And when somebody challenges it, it's really easy for it to flop over.
01:15:11.359 --> 01:15:16.319
Versus if they grew it from a little seedling, like it will be their belief.
01:15:17.199 --> 01:15:31.039
And I think that that is something that, like, yeah, for me, allows me to be guided that like I don't want to, I don't need to see you change to believe that I'm making an impact.
01:15:31.600 --> 01:15:41.359
And to like really go with this metaphor as far as I can go, I can actually flood the system and make it so that you can't grow it.
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:46.239
Like you can overwater something and kill the potential, right?
01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:50.319
And to me, like that's when we're trying to force it to grow.
01:15:50.479 --> 01:15:52.560
And that's not how things work.
01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:57.039
You can't water them more into growing faster, right?
01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:05.439
So I think as a facilitator, like that is something that I've learned is like, maybe I'm gonna get to see you change, maybe not.
01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:22.319
But if I don't get to see you change, like, have I softened the ground, planted the seeds, ideally, maybe even given you some access to future water sources, but like, have I not destroyed the potential of that growth?
01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:31.199
Because sometimes that's what we do is we actually destroy the potential of the growth from our urgency and want to see it happen right now.
01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:32.720
And impatience.
01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:37.039
Thank you, my very very thorough metaphor.
01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:38.880
Live the metaphor.
01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:40.560
Uh it's so accurate.
01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:42.880
Thank you.
01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:46.079
What a juicy conversation.
01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:48.399
Anything else you wanted to get into?
01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:51.600
I think it's around we'll talk about thank you.
01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:52.720
You're welcome.
01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:54.239
Thanks for having me.
01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:58.880
Thank you for staying tuned and for listening to the show.
01:16:59.119 --> 01:17:09.039
I know how busy you are, and I appreciate that you're sharing your two most uh valuable resources with me and my guests, your time and your attention.
01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:23.439
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01:17:23.920 --> 01:17:28.239
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