WEBVTT
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I hate saying pilot episodes we're an engineering pilot.
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Welcome to the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association's podcast.
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Um episode two.
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Um we are trying to um communicate back with the members and and uh reach out.
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So we're using our new platforms.
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And uh today uh we have our federal secretary back, Luke Murray.
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How are you, buddy?
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Yeah, good, thanks, Will.
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Yeah, good to be.
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And um, look today I just want to talk a bit more about the structure of the union, um, once again, where we're going and where we've been.
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Um just to reiterate how important it is to be a part of the association and a little bit about our management structure because I think they get forgotten about a lot and people don't understand the work that they do.
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So today I brought in one of our industrial officers, Sean Morgan.
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Sean, welcome to the show.
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Thank you, sir.
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Good to see you, buddy.
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Oh, good to be above the ground, Will.
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Now, um, I think what we'll do is we'll I'm I'm gonna talk back with you, Luke.
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Uh, we we talked about on the last episode the the structure of the union, and I and obviously we've had some changes over the um past year or so.
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Um, for me, one of the big changes is that I joined the executive.
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So personally, it's a big change for me.
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Huge learning curve.
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And once again, what I got out of um out of yourself, what's important is that the unions for the members.
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The members report or talk to the reps.
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Um, the reps, as you've said in the last episode, have uh the training and the tools to sort out matters, hopefully sort out matters before they become big ones.
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Anything that needs addressing, they can either turn to the executive, which is us, and as an executive, uh we use our collective knowledge and experience and tools uh to make decisions.
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Now, when those decisions are made, or it could be anything and anything, we have uh a large management structure above us who is paid for, and that's the important thing we need to also talk about is the the members' fees, you know, where do as the money go to?
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And they go to good people that do insanely difficult and fantastic work.
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Um so I might just get you to talk about the above us.
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So the executive, we have the management team.
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So can you explain to me and to everybody what the management team looks like and consists of and how it works?
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It's a good point that you make because our fees, everyone pays fees.
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It's good for the members to know where their fees are going, right?
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Yeah.
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Um what they're getting for their what bang they're getting for their buck.
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So uh I think Rod said in the last podcast uh that we bought we essentially bought our our legals in-house.
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We used to outsource to Morris Blackburn and a few other legal firms all our legal work, it cost a lot of money.
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Um, and essentially they didn't have the expertise to deliver the product that we needed.
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Um, we were doing a lot of their work for them, so we we figured we'd bring it in-house.
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And our head legal officer, our chief legal officer, uh Sean Morgan, um came on many years ago and he's does, did, does and continues to do a great job uh defending the members with his his uh legal knowledge.
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Um also Glynn, our GM, uh former Lamey as well, yeah, joined the union as an industrial officer, showed a great aptitude uh for the law.
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Um we put him through his law degree.
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Um we've also got Brad in Melbourne, uh, who is an organizer slash industrial officer.
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His uh role now, he's taken on the role of training all our reps.
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Uh he's also doing a great job.
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We've got a reps course running today, so you and I'll check in on that after we finish up here.
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Um we've also got a membership.
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Oh, we've no spears is uh also a long time industrial officer.
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Um we've also got our membership ladies uh at points of contact.
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So if you ring the office, you'll generally speak to Deb and Erin.
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And we've also got a new communications expert.
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Uh Ashley.
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Ashley, yeah.
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Yes.
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So yeah, good things happening.
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We're um we're trying to modern modernise and provide everything that we can think of, any service that we can think of that the members need.
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We want to empower our staff or and ourselves to be able to deliver that um best bang for buck.
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That's what we're trying to get.
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Yeah, and I what I like about it as well, and as Rod was saying, um, we used to outsource uh our legal representation.
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Now that we have it in-house and now that it's full-time, these guys are hyper focused on our industry, hyper focused on our profession.
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They're experts, they know it better than what I even 33 years of being a Lamey, they know it better than than me, multiplied by 10, you know, and that is their job.
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So when you need representation or when we need support in EBAs or when we need um an issue resolved, these are the these for me are my go-to guys, and um they're they're great and they're really good.
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Couldn't agree more, yeah.
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Worth their weight in gold.
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So they are experts, they see everything.
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Every mistake that gets made, they know it.
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They see it.
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The way you guys are talking, you're gonna have to knock a wall out of this.
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Uh nothing's changed for me.
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Nothing's changed.
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But Sean, um, look, thank you for being here today.
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And I felt that being the case, I felt it really, really important that you came and had a chat to us today because um you guys at that management team have the expertise.
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You are the driving force, you are our support.
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Um, I I couldn't begin to deal with the issues uh that I've had to dealt with in the for myself personally, the issues that I've been confronted with without the support of yourself and and Rajhan and even the administrative girls as well, um, and Brad too as well for for advice and respect.
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Um, what um so a little bit about yourself because I I I I think that it's really important that the members understand what you do and what some of the challenges that you've got.
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How much time have we got?
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It is a 40-minute episode, so we should be able to squeeze it in.
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So but uh in a nutshell, uh fitter and machinist by trade, spent 16 years on the tools, uh went to university to become a school teacher and walked out with a law degree.
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Wow, that's don't ask, it's a long story.
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Did you walk in the wrong room or something like that?
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Well, I just happened to do a subject and fell in love with the law.
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Yeah.
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And then I realized that this is what I wanted to do.
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And I was always a delegate when I was in the well on the tools, shall I say?
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So I just sort of gravitated towards that.
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Now I always left myself options in terms of going back to teaching, but there came a point where I had to sever it and I went down this path.
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And there I rung up my union of which I was a member at the time.
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And that was which union was that?
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AMW.
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This is what I've done, this is who I am.
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I gotta go somewhere and do some practical legal training, and they said, Well, you're one of ours.
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So uh went in there, did some legal training, which I had to do, it was mandatory as part of my uh degree.
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And uh advertised for a position and I applied for it, and I wasn't the smartest applicant there, what I come to know later, but I was one of theirs, and I walked a mile in their shoes.
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So that in itself was invaluable because it meant that I had it in here, not just up there.
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And I spent I think 13 years at the AMW before uh I joined the ALAA, and I must admit, I used to drive past the ALA every day going to work.
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I used to go, wouldn't I bloody love to work in that building?
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100 metres to walk every day.
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And there, I was having a hiatus actually, six months off.
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Yeah, I was I might say I was burnt out, but I wanted a break.
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Yeah, the AMW had restructured.
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I didn't see myself as part of that new structure.
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And there I left for six months.
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I was actually going to have a year off.
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Then the ALA advertised, and I thought, shit, 15 years I've been driving past or 13 years driving past that building.
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Now they're out.
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Wish they could have waited six months later.
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Anyway, I applied, got the job, and here I am, and I think I'm in my what year are we in?
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Two six, yeah.
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This is my eighth year now.
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I keep thinking 2016, but that's wish-well thinking.
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So I love working for the ALA when I first started.
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We Luke quite rightly said, we used to farm out all our legals, and I asked the question.
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And Luke at the time was the assistant federal secretary, but he was also in charge of us industrial officers at the time.
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And I put it to Luke saying, Why are we paying exorbitant fees for solicitors when I know some good barristers who we can bring in and I'll brief them directly?
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Luke said, Yeah, by all means.
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And we got a great barrister called Leo Saunders, who we brought in for an unfair dismissal, an unwinnable case, which we almost won.
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We almost won.
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And uh Luke got to see how good Leo was, and we've never looked back, so here we are.
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And one thing I do appreciate about this union, unlike a lot of the others, is that the ALA spares no expense.
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Like anytime I walk into his office or want to ring Luke and say, Hey Luke, we've got a matter.
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Uh it's usually one of the big airlines who always barrister up.
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Even though they've got their own in-house solicitors, they still get external solicitors as some of the best ones money can buy.
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Yeah.
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I'd hate to think of what their bills are, but anyway, they'd be exorbitant.
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And I go to Luke and say, Do you mind if I get Leo or another barrister involved because I know what's coming our way?
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No problem.
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And it's good because I think, well, not think, I believe that because we took that approach, yeah, it became a lot less litigious with these organizations as they realized that they weren't going to price us out of the market, that we'd saved money, and that we were going to keep coming for them if they came for our members unjustifiably.
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Yeah.
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So that's where we are today.
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So what's some of the over the last you know, say 10 years, what's been some of the without getting into specific cases, obviously, um, what's been some of the challenging moments of uh your time with the association to to give reflect of you know how how our expertise, how you you guys are hyper focused on the industry and that's helped the members or the industry itself.
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I must admit, I'm I'm blessed to actually have uh someone like Glenn Souter.
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Yeah.
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And even though I supervise Glenn as a solicitor, the man's high-powered acuity, you know, he's much smarter than me.
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But more importantly, he's actually a lamey as well.
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Yeah.
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So I go to him for a lot of the technical advice.
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And I'm bringing myself up to speed after seven years.
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I'd like to think that I'm pretty good.
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Yeah.
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You know, I can know what a B1 and a B2 is.
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Yeah, glorified electricians and good old mechanics, that's what I call it.
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But anyway, uh I found this industry death by acronym when I first started.
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You should try to go to the military.
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Death by acronym.
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Well, anyway, I've got a handle on all the terms, and yeah, as I said, I go to Glynn if I need some technical advice.
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But not only that, the executive members like yourself, Luke, you know, they're a wealth of knowledge.
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You know, we win a lot of our cases, or we get what I call when I say win, we settle a lot of our cases, but we get good outcomes, shall I say, because of the technical expertise that our executive members have.
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And they're always willing to come forward as witnesses.
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And once you put them in that stand and they talk the language, it gets us across the line.
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Yeah, and that can be with anything or anyone with with sorting out new laws with CASA or disputes with CASA or the airlines.
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Oh, most definitely, most definitely.
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Like, for example, uh, I think we had a bit of uh a tumultuous affair with CASA about a year ago.
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I think it's now been addressed, but yeah, we didn't like what they were doing in terms of I think it was part 43, and we thought it was wrong where it was going, and it had uh well put it this way, you could fly the Qantas fleet through it, that was our opinion.
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Yeah, and uh we were able to stop it.
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But that only occurred because we had the expertise to negate what Castle were trying to do.
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So they would use colourful overall language, we'd use technical language to say that's why that's wrong, and we that's why that premise is incorrect.
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We had the expertise to see the holes in it and exactly, mate.
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Yeah, exactly.
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You obviously, and once again, um we we don't want to get anywhere near any s specific cases, but uh I think what's important that we talk about next is when guys get themselves into a little bit of a TIF, whether it's their fault or not.
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Um which tiff are we talking about which which week is it today?
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Oh, there's so many tiffs.
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Obviously, um, you know, the guys can get themselves into or be around trouble as well.
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And I think that's one of the things I always talk about, you know, no one ever thinks they'll get themselves into trouble.
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Um, and usually those who are in trouble obviously think that.
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But um think that the most.
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But you know, you can be around something that happens and you're absorbed in an issue, in an investigation or in something.
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Um, when something goes down, obviously the best thing you can do is is you go and seek a an alia representative.
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100%.
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Yep.
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And that alien representative, we provide training now, which is also going on today as well, um, to contact pretty much you guys.
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So what's generally the process that goes on when someone reaches out to you?
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I I'm I'm really glad you did touch upon that, and I just want to take it back a couple of steps.
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Yep.
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Because when members do find themselves in a TIFF, shall we call it?
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Yep.
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They usually believe it's just some innocuous issue that they're caught up in.
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But they don't realise that HR and senior managers are already involved in the background, and they think that they can get themselves out of it, that they can talk their way through.
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And more often than not, all they really do is just bury themselves deeper.
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You might as well actually don't hand them the spade, give them a freaking excavator because that's that's the way they're going.
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Yeah, and usually it reaches a point where I can't scramble eggs.
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The good ones, and when I say the good ones, I shouldn't say use that word, the knowledgeable ones who are in the union, in the ALAA, will contact the rep.
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The rep will say, do not say anything, do not go to that meeting until I have told you otherwise.
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Yeah.
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They'll usually get on the phone to meet, but we've got more experienced reps who are able to just walk into that meeting, like yourself.
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Yeah.
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You don't need to ring me at first instance.
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You're educated enough where you can actually go to that meeting with management.
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But then I'd get a phone call from you, as I've had in the past, where we'll talk through what's occurred.
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Yeah.
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And that's where I get involved with the member.
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And I sort of I don't displace you, but I'll say I'll let me take it from now on.
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And there I'll see what the member or the situation with which they're confronted.
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And there generally I will then write a letter to the business if I think it's bogus or if it's not.
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It's usually a letter acknowledging I've done wrong, but forgive me for all my sins, boss, I'll never do it again.
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And and sometimes it's hard to convince people that they have to fall on their sword because they have crossed the line in the workshop.
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But usually if you talk to someone, and our members are very knowledgeable people, you know, you don't become a lamey unless you've got smarts.
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So it's not hard to talk to them and convince them that hey, listen, I think you've kind of gone off the rails here.
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And uh I think it's one of those situations where you're gonna have to apologize for what you've done.
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Or the alternative or the contrary position is where the boss is going after them.
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Yeah and uh we just have to step in and actually become their shield.
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Where I say, you say nothing from now on, I'm doing all the talking, I'm writing all the correspondence.
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The boss will try to say no, you need to deal with us directly, and I'll say, Don't take the boss's advice, I'm the one representing you legally, let me deal with them.
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And usually you give them comfort when you're able to step into that space and just prevent them or prevent the situation going downhill fast.
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And the ones that do listen, we usually more often than not we get a good outcome.
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Yeah.
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And we've had a couple in Brisbane, we've had a Australia wide, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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All over the place.
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Not that Brisbane's much of a problem, but hey, nothing wrong with Brisbane.
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Look, and that that that is one of the good things.
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Um, we have been provided training on how to deal with it's it's more like a triage.
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I mean, you can have an incident happen, and uh look, I I like to say seven times out of ten, you can go into the office and get everything cooled down and sort it all out.
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But when it does get real and it does get complicated, I've got you or I've got Raj or Glynn on the other end of the phone like that.
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And um you af after I contact you, I pretty much walk away.
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I um if I'm involved with representing somebody, I like to sit in the background, but I say nothing.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:59.519
And once again, what the uh federal president and the federal secretary have taught me is that um I I I I it's it's not my um expertise, my position to to really give advice, but I like to oversee and make sure everything's done properly, and which we've done in the past, and I've worked very well with you, where you know we work together, but my role has been to just make sure that everything's done right by the union, everything's done right by the company, and but I've been able to stand back and and allow you to do great work.
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:08.480
And and rightly so, what you say, at the end of the day, you've got your finger on the pulse where that workshop or hanger, whatever you want to call it, is concerned.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:19.759
And I need you to be in that position where you do have oversight on it, because if you don't have oversight, yeah, then it won't go off the rails, but you can have setbacks, yeah.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:27.839
You always need well, someone like yourself who's involved in matters needs to always be informed of every step that's taken place.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:39.519
Because generally speaking, a lot of reps like yourself will have questions coming from the other members as to what's happening with the affected member.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.680
Yeah, is he getting good representation?
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.240
And you need to be able to answer those questions.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:52.160
That's the I think is the fundamental role that we have is providing reassurance, and that's where it gets hard work sometimes as a as a counsellor.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, we and I've I've had this personally and recently, and you've had this all the time.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:06.160
Things happen, whether it's with an individual, whether it's an industrial issue, you know, we're having shift changes or workplace changes or whatever.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:11.039
Um, you become the the center point, you know, what's going on.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:18.640
And you need to provide the members reassurance that we have this under control, we have great people working on it.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:25.039
Um, and it can get very tiring at times because you're telling the same story, providing reassurance, it's can be sometimes the hardest work as well.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.920
You would have had some experience and that a lot every day.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.480
Yeah, a lot, but you know, it's it's so much easier.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:49.839
Uh one of the problems that that we I find, we find is that members where they'll be involved in an incident and they will go into a meeting with management and as Sean said, say stuff with without getting advice first or go into a meeting by themselves.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:55.440
Um they'll say the wrong thing, and it's very hard to unring that bell or unscramble that egg.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.880
In many cases, very, very difficult, if not impossible.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:14.640
So, my advice anyone who's listening to this, if you're involved in an incident, if you get um invited to a meeting with management, reach out to your rep or to the office before you say anything.
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.160
Um always get advice prior to that.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.039
It's very, very hard to unscramble the egg.
00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.279
Uh so yeah, that would be my piece of advice.
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:30.319
And I've seen a lot of incidents that could have been a lot of situations that have escalated very quickly because someone said the wrong thing.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.039
It could have all been avoided had they sought advice first.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:45.119
As a rep, have you gone in, and would my analogy of like seven matters out of ten, you've you've been able to just go into the office as a rep, what's happened, what's going on, how can we do it?
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.079
We do it all the time.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.240
Yeah.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.400
Usually uh incidents are uh communication breakdown or just a just a mistake.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.440
People make mistakes, everyone acknowledges that's part of our industry.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:56.480
That's the just culture.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:56.880
Yeah.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:01.039
If yeah, um and we We defend that.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:06.000
Um a lot of times people have just made an honest mistake and they shouldn't be punished for that.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.480
So and we and we defend that every day.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:22.160
Uh communication breakdowns, we we intervene with a phone call, and we've rebuilt a lot of relationships with senior managers now, and we can resolve issues with phone calls where previously we couldn't, they would end up in court.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:30.400
Um so we've been able to to uh essentially alleviate a lot of alleviate a lot of that heartache for our members and for the companies as well.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:36.559
It's it's costly and time consuming, consumes a lot of their resources to take to discipline people.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.519
Um they don't really want to do it a lot of the time.
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.000
So if we can avoid that, that's what we'll do.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.519
Uh and that's what we have done.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.240
I can't say enough about what Luke just said there.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:46.720
Yeah.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:23:14.960
I have relationships with my counterparts in the rarest airlines, and to be able to make that phone call and have a without prejudice discussion where it goes nowhere between the two people that are on the phone call and work your way through the issue and more often than not convince that person on the other side that this is why they're going down the wrong path, and we think that you should come this way.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.759
That's what we achieve by having those relationships.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:30.160
I must admit it was very adversarial once upon a time, and you'd make a phone call and get told, No, I'm not talking to you today.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.759
Yeah, don't get not talking, don't see you in court.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.720
Wow.
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.599
Yeah.
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:52.400
One one of the things uh being a part of the association for many, many years, and I think what has dawned on me in the recent year being a part of the executive is that you you see your work primarily as dealing with guys who've got themselves in a TIFF.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.119
And but you do a lot more work than that.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:01.039
You you deal with uh CASA and regulation issues, um, other industrial issues.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.559
Um things can get, you know, it's it's a big tree that you deal with.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:16.799
So really guys getting themselves into trouble, whether it's um workplace behaviour or an um uh a legal matter, a maintenance incident or something like that, really is just one branch of the stuff you do.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.400
Some of the other stuff you do is like with CASA and and the industrial infrastructure of the planet.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:23.920
I I mean how do we put it?
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:31.039
Yeah, with with the CASA stuff, uh I tend to leave that to Glenn and I've been riding his coattails in terms of learning.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:31.359
Yeah.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:36.480
Now, in saying that though, I have had to provide members with advice.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:48.880
For example, there was a member over in Adelaide who wanted to know whether he was required to keep up to date with the aircraft flight manuals.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:55.599
And I had to go digging in the CASARs and pull out the section that says nah, that's onus is on the operator.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.440
Go back to the operator and say no, not your responsibility.
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:04.799
So, in in that regard, I yeah, we provide a lot of that advice in terms of our dealings with CASA.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.319
Uh Glynn does a lot of that.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:08.559
Yep.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:08.799
Yep.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.480
Because he's the general manager as well, so that's his station as well.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.000
Because there's always lots of changes that the government wants to do.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.039
Airlines put pressure on CASA to do changes.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:25.119
We are there to ensure that the Australian standards are maintained, and some of these changes don't happen.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:36.079
And interestingly enough, what you say there in terms of that CASA issue, well not that CASA issue, but a CASA issue, yeah, was with foreign license holders.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.359
And there's probably another aspect of the law that I get involved is the immigration law now.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:41.839
Wow.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:49.680
With with what we do, and we've had to provide advice to members in terms of their their 482s, their 186s, their 494s.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:55.599
I used to do a little bit of immigration work, but that was just as pro bono now actually doing it for the ALAA.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.359
So yeah.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.240
It can get quite involved and quite deep.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.839
Well, we we do everything.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:05.759
You know, we we do have members that reach rock bottom.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:06.240
Wow.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.000
And you've got to just tell them to come into the office.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:10.559
Wow.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:20.559
And just have a chat to them about life in general and where they're gonna get work, yeah, their life on there being derailed, and you've got to talk to them about that aspect of it.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:32.480
And that's one thing where I believe we're different to most other uh lawyers being working for the union is that in law school they teach you that you should never sympathize with your client.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:46.160
But I don't call our members clients, I I call them they're friends, yeah, you know, and that's probably the biggest sin that I'll ever commit being a lawyer is that I sympathize where no Sean empathy, it's always empathy.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.440
No, you can't when you're involved in people's lives.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:57.359
And one thing I think one thing about employment, the most important asset you've ever got in your life is your job.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.960
Yeah, everyone will say my home, my family, and just yeah, that's true.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.880
But at the end of the day, without your employment, you can't look after all those other aspects of your life.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:07.359
Yeah.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.880
So that that's why to me it's always very important.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.839
And one thing about uh working for the union movement is you're not gonna get rich.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.680
You know, but you go home with a clear conscience every night.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:26.079
God knows I've committed enough sins in this world that I wipe my slate of a few of them by doing what I do.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.039
As an organization or an industry, I would probably probably put it as an industry.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:35.200
What's some of the things that you foresee that's important for us to work on?
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:42.240
I know it's cliche to say this in the current climate, but AI, yes, I I'd really love to know.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.400
I'm an old dog and yeah, I'm barely learning new tricks.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.640
Yeah, I'm coming to the end of my journey.
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:54.079
I think I've got about 10-15 years left in me before they'll put me out into the knackery.
00:27:54.079 --> 00:28:09.279
But uh with the AI, uh I my jury's still out, pardon the legal pun as to where it's going to go for our members because they're still very hands-on.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:15.759
I don't think AI will ever ever be able to replace that eyes-on job that the Laney performs.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:23.920
But you've got paperwork and processes that operate in the background, and and that's what concerns me.
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:33.759
I shouldn't say the word concern, but it's something that we should be monitoring as to how it's uh going to affect our members' in terms of their work.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.920
Oh, I said the day I see AI put its hand down a toilet to unblock it, that's when I'll get worried.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:38.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:40.480
Bring it on.
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:47.599
I'll be good at that about it's yeah, save myself doing it, mate.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.680
No, look, Sean, um, thanks for coming in today.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.640
Not a problem.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.839
Um, we have worked together on a number of issues.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.759
You've been extraordinary, you've been a fantastic support.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:06.880
Um just investing in you guys to, as I said, you're hyper focused on our industry, and I think it's really important.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:32.240
And I really wanted to bring you in today to talk about that because you know, when when it gets serious and the serious work happens, you guys are working, and and I wanted the members to to to hear that and to to obviously through the the visuals see the work you do, and and um I guess maybe the executive we can get a little bit of credit because we're standing in in front of the members all day, every day.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:37.440
But honestly, Luke, you know, these guys uh we couldn't even begin to do the work we do without them.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:38.400
Oh, 100%, yeah.
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:39.759
It was the best thing we ever did.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:45.200
Um hiring Sean worth every penny.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.720
But no, look, thank you for coming.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.920
I heard you say you didn't want money, you just wanted a bottle of scotch at all.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.119
Another sin I've got to get rid of the slate.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:59.039
But look, thank you, Sean.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:04.799
You're amazing, and um look, I I hope we can still do a couple more good years of work together.
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:05.599
And 100%.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.680
And I think we will be.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:09.039
So I'm nowhere.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.319
Yeah, no, that's great.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.079
And look, thank you for coming in today.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.240
And what what a fantastic guy and really, really proud.
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:17.759
Worth his wedding gold.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.519
It is, and um I'm heavy, but he's pretty heavy.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:26.720
But look, I guess that starts to finish up our episode two.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.559
It's our our trial episode uh for the association.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.279
Um, you know, look, thanks for this opportunity, Luke, and and Rod if you're listening.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:37.200
Thanks for for thanks for doing it, mate.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:45.119
I I hope and I think we will go forward um with some more episodes and um a series and and hope to do it regularly.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:54.960
Um if uh we get positive feedback and and members out there who are listening, um, reach out to your reps, um, send it an email.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:01.279
Uh obviously uh the platforms that we'll be putting this on will have um comments which we will read.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.920
Um if you like this uh and you want us to continue, uh we will do it.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:14.079
We I will we focused on these two episodes to get to know us, uh to get to know where we've been, where we're going, and um what we've done.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.160
Um and obviously about our management structure, which is really, really important.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.599
But for the future, I I hope that we can talk more about news, what's been happening.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:35.440
Um, I'd like to bring in some people from the past, um, you know, from the 60s and the 70s who are a part of the union and talk about old times and some incidents or some events that happened.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:41.359
And I think that's quite valuable lessons for us going forward and and how we can connect ourselves together.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:49.440
So if you like what you hear, give us some feedback and um if uh we get some positive feedback that'll be we we should be able to pull this together more regularly.
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:57.519
It'd be great if people would um yeah, tell us if they think it's a something that has value to them that uh and also what they want to hear.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:58.079
Yeah.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.519
And something specific you want to know about, let us know and we'll tell it.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:02.000
As well.
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.319
Obviously, if you've got if you've got ideas for topics or segments that you'd like to hear about, we we want to hear from you.
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:12.559
And more importantly, um, this does take a lot of legwork.
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:20.160
And as you said, and I will remind everybody that the executive, we are all volunteers, we all have full-time jobs.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:25.519
Um, the the work that you especially, Luke, is is is horrific.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.880
But um, you know, we we we we commit a lot of time to doing our roles.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:45.759
Um, so if you want to get involved in podcasts, uh, especially if you're Sydney based because the union office is in Sydney, if you want to get involved in editing, um support, any involved in the podcast, please express interest to us, uh contact the office and let us know.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:47.440
We'd love to have you along.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.400
Um, we we need to, I think we need to make this grow.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.960
So uh hopefully in the future we can do that.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:53.920
Fingers crossed.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:55.599
Guys, thanks a lot for coming along.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:56.640
Thanks for the opportunity.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.160
Sean, thanks once again, mate.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.160
Thanks, Will.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.519
Hopefully, we'll see you soon.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:02.240
Thanks, everyone.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.640
You uh stay safe and keep them safe out there.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.759
See you later.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:06.799
I hate saying pilot episodes we're an engineering pilot.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:20.000
Welcome to the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association's podcast.
00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.079
Um episode two.
00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:28.399
Um we are trying to um communicate back with the members and and uh reach out.
00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:30.399
So we're using our new platforms.
00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.960
And uh today uh we have our federal secretary back, Luke Murray.
00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:35.600
How are you, buddy?
00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:36.640
Yeah, good, thanks, Will.
00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:37.600
Yeah, good to be.
00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:44.560
And um, look today I just want to talk a bit more about the structure of the union, um, once again, where we're going and where we've been.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:58.640
Um just to reiterate how important it is to be a part of the association and a little bit about our management structure because I think they get forgotten about a lot and people don't understand the work that they do.
00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.159
So today I brought in one of our industrial officers, Sean Morgan.
00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:03.439
Sean, welcome to the show.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:04.400
Thank you, sir.
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:05.680
Good to see you, buddy.
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.920
Oh, good to be above the ground, Will.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:14.799
Now, um, I think what we'll do is we'll I'm I'm gonna talk back with you, Luke.
00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:24.640
Uh, we we talked about on the last episode the the structure of the union, and I and obviously we've had some changes over the um past year or so.
00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.920
Um, for me, one of the big changes is that I joined the executive.
00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:30.319
So personally, it's a big change for me.
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:32.000
Huge learning curve.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:40.159
And once again, what I got out of um out of yourself, what's important is that the unions for the members.
00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:44.959
The members report or talk to the reps.
00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:55.840
Um, the reps, as you've said in the last episode, have uh the training and the tools to sort out matters, hopefully sort out matters before they become big ones.
00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:09.599
Anything that needs addressing, they can either turn to the executive, which is us, and as an executive, uh we use our collective knowledge and experience and tools uh to make decisions.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:25.039
Now, when those decisions are made, or it could be anything and anything, we have uh a large management structure above us who is paid for, and that's the important thing we need to also talk about is the the members' fees, you know, where do as the money go to?
00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:30.080
And they go to good people that do insanely difficult and fantastic work.
00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:34.319
Um so I might just get you to talk about the above us.
00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:38.560
So the executive, we have the management team.
00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:45.680
So can you explain to me and to everybody what the management team looks like and consists of and how it works?
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.439
It's a good point that you make because our fees, everyone pays fees.
00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:52.479
It's good for the members to know where their fees are going, right?
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:52.800
Yeah.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.759
Um what they're getting for their what bang they're getting for their buck.
00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:03.039
So uh I think Rod said in the last podcast uh that we bought we essentially bought our our legals in-house.
00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:10.800
We used to outsource to Morris Blackburn and a few other legal firms all our legal work, it cost a lot of money.
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.840
Um, and essentially they didn't have the expertise to deliver the product that we needed.
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:20.080
Um, we were doing a lot of their work for them, so we we figured we'd bring it in-house.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:38.960
And our head legal officer, our chief legal officer, uh Sean Morgan, um came on many years ago and he's does, did, does and continues to do a great job uh defending the members with his his uh legal knowledge.
00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:48.719
Um also Glynn, our GM, uh former Lamey as well, yeah, joined the union as an industrial officer, showed a great aptitude uh for the law.
00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.280
Um we put him through his law degree.
00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:57.840
Um we've also got Brad in Melbourne, uh, who is an organizer slash industrial officer.
00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:02.080
His uh role now, he's taken on the role of training all our reps.
00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.400
Uh he's also doing a great job.
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:09.680
We've got a reps course running today, so you and I'll check in on that after we finish up here.
00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:13.280
Um we've also got a membership.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:17.519
Oh, we've no spears is uh also a long time industrial officer.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:22.879
Um we've also got our membership ladies uh at points of contact.
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.839
So if you ring the office, you'll generally speak to Deb and Erin.
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.519
And we've also got a new communications expert.
00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:31.199
Uh Ashley.
00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:32.079
Ashley, yeah.
00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:36.720
Yes.
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:38.879
So yeah, good things happening.
00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:48.000
We're um we're trying to modern modernise and provide everything that we can think of, any service that we can think of that the members need.
00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:55.360
We want to empower our staff or and ourselves to be able to deliver that um best bang for buck.
00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:56.240
That's what we're trying to get.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:05.360
Yeah, and I what I like about it as well, and as Rod was saying, um, we used to outsource uh our legal representation.
00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:13.360
Now that we have it in-house and now that it's full-time, these guys are hyper focused on our industry, hyper focused on our profession.
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:22.560
They're experts, they know it better than what I even 33 years of being a Lamey, they know it better than than me, multiplied by 10, you know, and that is their job.
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:34.399
So when you need representation or when we need support in EBAs or when we need um an issue resolved, these are the these for me are my go-to guys, and um they're they're great and they're really good.
00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:35.920
Couldn't agree more, yeah.
00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:37.199
Worth their weight in gold.
00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.279
So they are experts, they see everything.
00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.000
Every mistake that gets made, they know it.
00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:42.720
They see it.
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.160
The way you guys are talking, you're gonna have to knock a wall out of this.
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:49.519
Uh nothing's changed for me.
00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:50.560
Nothing's changed.
00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.839
But Sean, um, look, thank you for being here today.
00:05:53.839 --> 00:06:07.680
And I felt that being the case, I felt it really, really important that you came and had a chat to us today because um you guys at that management team have the expertise.
00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.560
You are the driving force, you are our support.
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:31.759
Um, I I couldn't begin to deal with the issues uh that I've had to dealt with in the for myself personally, the issues that I've been confronted with without the support of yourself and and Rajhan and even the administrative girls as well, um, and Brad too as well for for advice and respect.
00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:42.160
Um, what um so a little bit about yourself because I I I I think that it's really important that the members understand what you do and what some of the challenges that you've got.
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:44.800
How much time have we got?
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.839
It is a 40-minute episode, so we should be able to squeeze it in.
00:06:47.920 --> 00:07:00.319
So but uh in a nutshell, uh fitter and machinist by trade, spent 16 years on the tools, uh went to university to become a school teacher and walked out with a law degree.
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:02.319
Wow, that's don't ask, it's a long story.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:04.000
Did you walk in the wrong room or something like that?
00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.000
Well, I just happened to do a subject and fell in love with the law.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:08.399
Yeah.
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:11.040
And then I realized that this is what I wanted to do.
00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.839
And I was always a delegate when I was in the well on the tools, shall I say?
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.839
So I just sort of gravitated towards that.
00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:26.319
Now I always left myself options in terms of going back to teaching, but there came a point where I had to sever it and I went down this path.
00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:30.000
And there I rung up my union of which I was a member at the time.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:31.519
And that was which union was that?
00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:32.240
AMW.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.639
This is what I've done, this is who I am.
00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:39.279
I gotta go somewhere and do some practical legal training, and they said, Well, you're one of ours.
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:45.600
So uh went in there, did some legal training, which I had to do, it was mandatory as part of my uh degree.
00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:58.959
And uh advertised for a position and I applied for it, and I wasn't the smartest applicant there, what I come to know later, but I was one of theirs, and I walked a mile in their shoes.
00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:04.639
So that in itself was invaluable because it meant that I had it in here, not just up there.
00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:16.160
And I spent I think 13 years at the AMW before uh I joined the ALAA, and I must admit, I used to drive past the ALA every day going to work.
00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.360
I used to go, wouldn't I bloody love to work in that building?
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.680
100 metres to walk every day.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:25.279
And there, I was having a hiatus actually, six months off.
00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.160
Yeah, I was I might say I was burnt out, but I wanted a break.
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.160
Yeah, the AMW had restructured.
00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.639
I didn't see myself as part of that new structure.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.440
And there I left for six months.
00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.960
I was actually going to have a year off.
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:42.960
Then the ALA advertised, and I thought, shit, 15 years I've been driving past or 13 years driving past that building.
00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:43.519
Now they're out.
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.440
Wish they could have waited six months later.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:51.039
Anyway, I applied, got the job, and here I am, and I think I'm in my what year are we in?
00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.200
Two six, yeah.
00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:54.480
This is my eighth year now.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.120
I keep thinking 2016, but that's wish-well thinking.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.559
So I love working for the ALA when I first started.
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:06.320
We Luke quite rightly said, we used to farm out all our legals, and I asked the question.
00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:11.679
And Luke at the time was the assistant federal secretary, but he was also in charge of us industrial officers at the time.
00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:22.960
And I put it to Luke saying, Why are we paying exorbitant fees for solicitors when I know some good barristers who we can bring in and I'll brief them directly?
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:25.679
Luke said, Yeah, by all means.
00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:34.240
And we got a great barrister called Leo Saunders, who we brought in for an unfair dismissal, an unwinnable case, which we almost won.
00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:34.960
We almost won.
00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:40.000
And uh Luke got to see how good Leo was, and we've never looked back, so here we are.
00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:48.080
And one thing I do appreciate about this union, unlike a lot of the others, is that the ALA spares no expense.
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:55.360
Like anytime I walk into his office or want to ring Luke and say, Hey Luke, we've got a matter.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:10:01.120
Uh it's usually one of the big airlines who always barrister up.
00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:07.679
Even though they've got their own in-house solicitors, they still get external solicitors as some of the best ones money can buy.
00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:08.000
Yeah.
00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.600
I'd hate to think of what their bills are, but anyway, they'd be exorbitant.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:17.759
And I go to Luke and say, Do you mind if I get Leo or another barrister involved because I know what's coming our way?
00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:19.200
No problem.
00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:39.039
And it's good because I think, well, not think, I believe that because we took that approach, yeah, it became a lot less litigious with these organizations as they realized that they weren't going to price us out of the market, that we'd saved money, and that we were going to keep coming for them if they came for our members unjustifiably.
00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:39.519
Yeah.
00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.279
So that's where we are today.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:11:07.679
So what's some of the over the last you know, say 10 years, what's been some of the without getting into specific cases, obviously, um, what's been some of the challenging moments of uh your time with the association to to give reflect of you know how how our expertise, how you you guys are hyper focused on the industry and that's helped the members or the industry itself.
00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:13.919
I must admit, I'm I'm blessed to actually have uh someone like Glenn Souter.
00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:14.559
Yeah.
00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:22.399
And even though I supervise Glenn as a solicitor, the man's high-powered acuity, you know, he's much smarter than me.
00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:25.360
But more importantly, he's actually a lamey as well.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:25.679
Yeah.
00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.679
So I go to him for a lot of the technical advice.
00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.480
And I'm bringing myself up to speed after seven years.
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.720
I'd like to think that I'm pretty good.
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:34.960
Yeah.
00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.279
You know, I can know what a B1 and a B2 is.
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:41.919
Yeah, glorified electricians and good old mechanics, that's what I call it.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:47.440
But anyway, uh I found this industry death by acronym when I first started.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:48.879
You should try to go to the military.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:50.399
Death by acronym.
00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:57.120
Well, anyway, I've got a handle on all the terms, and yeah, as I said, I go to Glynn if I need some technical advice.
00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:03.360
But not only that, the executive members like yourself, Luke, you know, they're a wealth of knowledge.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:18.320
You know, we win a lot of our cases, or we get what I call when I say win, we settle a lot of our cases, but we get good outcomes, shall I say, because of the technical expertise that our executive members have.
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.759
And they're always willing to come forward as witnesses.
00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:27.360
And once you put them in that stand and they talk the language, it gets us across the line.
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:34.240
Yeah, and that can be with anything or anyone with with sorting out new laws with CASA or disputes with CASA or the airlines.
00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:36.159
Oh, most definitely, most definitely.
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:42.399
Like, for example, uh, I think we had a bit of uh a tumultuous affair with CASA about a year ago.
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:57.279
I think it's now been addressed, but yeah, we didn't like what they were doing in terms of I think it was part 43, and we thought it was wrong where it was going, and it had uh well put it this way, you could fly the Qantas fleet through it, that was our opinion.
00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.600
Yeah, and uh we were able to stop it.
00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:06.960
But that only occurred because we had the expertise to negate what Castle were trying to do.
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:17.519
So they would use colourful overall language, we'd use technical language to say that's why that's wrong, and we that's why that premise is incorrect.
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:21.519
We had the expertise to see the holes in it and exactly, mate.
00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:22.960
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:37.279
You obviously, and once again, um we we don't want to get anywhere near any s specific cases, but uh I think what's important that we talk about next is when guys get themselves into a little bit of a TIF, whether it's their fault or not.
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:43.360
Um which tiff are we talking about which which week is it today?
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.200
Oh, there's so many tiffs.
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:50.879
Obviously, um, you know, the guys can get themselves into or be around trouble as well.
00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:56.559
And I think that's one of the things I always talk about, you know, no one ever thinks they'll get themselves into trouble.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:00.320
Um, and usually those who are in trouble obviously think that.
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.559
But um think that the most.
00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:08.320
But you know, you can be around something that happens and you're absorbed in an issue, in an investigation or in something.
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:14.000
Um, when something goes down, obviously the best thing you can do is is you go and seek a an alia representative.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:14.639
100%.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.200
Yep.
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:25.679
And that alien representative, we provide training now, which is also going on today as well, um, to contact pretty much you guys.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:31.039
So what's generally the process that goes on when someone reaches out to you?
00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.360
I I'm I'm really glad you did touch upon that, and I just want to take it back a couple of steps.
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:35.679
Yep.
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:40.720
Because when members do find themselves in a TIFF, shall we call it?
00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:41.279
Yep.
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:47.360
They usually believe it's just some innocuous issue that they're caught up in.
00:14:47.360 --> 00:15:01.600
But they don't realise that HR and senior managers are already involved in the background, and they think that they can get themselves out of it, that they can talk their way through.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:06.399
And more often than not, all they really do is just bury themselves deeper.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:12.000
You might as well actually don't hand them the spade, give them a freaking excavator because that's that's the way they're going.
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.960
Yeah, and usually it reaches a point where I can't scramble eggs.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:30.080
The good ones, and when I say the good ones, I shouldn't say use that word, the knowledgeable ones who are in the union, in the ALAA, will contact the rep.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:37.759
The rep will say, do not say anything, do not go to that meeting until I have told you otherwise.
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:38.080
Yeah.
00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:43.600
They'll usually get on the phone to meet, but we've got more experienced reps who are able to just walk into that meeting, like yourself.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:44.240
Yeah.
00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.720
You don't need to ring me at first instance.
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.639
You're educated enough where you can actually go to that meeting with management.
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:58.799
But then I'd get a phone call from you, as I've had in the past, where we'll talk through what's occurred.
00:15:58.799 --> 00:15:59.279
Yeah.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.000
And that's where I get involved with the member.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.919
And I sort of I don't displace you, but I'll say I'll let me take it from now on.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:10.399
And there I'll see what the member or the situation with which they're confronted.
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:18.879
And there generally I will then write a letter to the business if I think it's bogus or if it's not.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:27.279
It's usually a letter acknowledging I've done wrong, but forgive me for all my sins, boss, I'll never do it again.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:34.639
And and sometimes it's hard to convince people that they have to fall on their sword because they have crossed the line in the workshop.
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:42.240
But usually if you talk to someone, and our members are very knowledgeable people, you know, you don't become a lamey unless you've got smarts.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:49.679
So it's not hard to talk to them and convince them that hey, listen, I think you've kind of gone off the rails here.
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:55.519
And uh I think it's one of those situations where you're gonna have to apologize for what you've done.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.960
Or the alternative or the contrary position is where the boss is going after them.
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:05.119
Yeah and uh we just have to step in and actually become their shield.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:12.480
Where I say, you say nothing from now on, I'm doing all the talking, I'm writing all the correspondence.
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:21.680
The boss will try to say no, you need to deal with us directly, and I'll say, Don't take the boss's advice, I'm the one representing you legally, let me deal with them.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:31.839
And usually you give them comfort when you're able to step into that space and just prevent them or prevent the situation going downhill fast.
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:37.519
And the ones that do listen, we usually more often than not we get a good outcome.
00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:37.920
Yeah.
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.480
And we've had a couple in Brisbane, we've had a Australia wide, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:43.519
All over the place.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:47.759
Not that Brisbane's much of a problem, but hey, nothing wrong with Brisbane.
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.559
Look, and that that that is one of the good things.
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:57.279
Um, we have been provided training on how to deal with it's it's more like a triage.
00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:06.079
I mean, you can have an incident happen, and uh look, I I like to say seven times out of ten, you can go into the office and get everything cooled down and sort it all out.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:15.119
But when it does get real and it does get complicated, I've got you or I've got Raj or Glynn on the other end of the phone like that.
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:19.599
And um you af after I contact you, I pretty much walk away.
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:26.079
I um if I'm involved with representing somebody, I like to sit in the background, but I say nothing.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:59.519
And once again, what the uh federal president and the federal secretary have taught me is that um I I I I it's it's not my um expertise, my position to to really give advice, but I like to oversee and make sure everything's done properly, and which we've done in the past, and I've worked very well with you, where you know we work together, but my role has been to just make sure that everything's done right by the union, everything's done right by the company, and but I've been able to stand back and and allow you to do great work.
00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:08.480
And and rightly so, what you say, at the end of the day, you've got your finger on the pulse where that workshop or hanger, whatever you want to call it, is concerned.
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:19.759
And I need you to be in that position where you do have oversight on it, because if you don't have oversight, yeah, then it won't go off the rails, but you can have setbacks, yeah.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:27.839
You always need well, someone like yourself who's involved in matters needs to always be informed of every step that's taken place.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:39.519
Because generally speaking, a lot of reps like yourself will have questions coming from the other members as to what's happening with the affected member.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.680
Yeah, is he getting good representation?
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.240
And you need to be able to answer those questions.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:52.160
That's the I think is the fundamental role that we have is providing reassurance, and that's where it gets hard work sometimes as a as a counsellor.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, we and I've I've had this personally and recently, and you've had this all the time.
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:06.160
Things happen, whether it's with an individual, whether it's an industrial issue, you know, we're having shift changes or workplace changes or whatever.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:11.039
Um, you become the the center point, you know, what's going on.
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:18.640
And you need to provide the members reassurance that we have this under control, we have great people working on it.
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:25.039
Um, and it can get very tiring at times because you're telling the same story, providing reassurance, it's can be sometimes the hardest work as well.
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.920
You would have had some experience and that a lot every day.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.480
Yeah, a lot, but you know, it's it's so much easier.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:49.839
Uh one of the problems that that we I find, we find is that members where they'll be involved in an incident and they will go into a meeting with management and as Sean said, say stuff with without getting advice first or go into a meeting by themselves.
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:55.440
Um they'll say the wrong thing, and it's very hard to unring that bell or unscramble that egg.
00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.880
In many cases, very, very difficult, if not impossible.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:14.640
So, my advice anyone who's listening to this, if you're involved in an incident, if you get um invited to a meeting with management, reach out to your rep or to the office before you say anything.
00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.160
Um always get advice prior to that.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.039
It's very, very hard to unscramble the egg.
00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.279
Uh so yeah, that would be my piece of advice.
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:30.319
And I've seen a lot of incidents that could have been a lot of situations that have escalated very quickly because someone said the wrong thing.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.039
It could have all been avoided had they sought advice first.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:45.119
As a rep, have you gone in, and would my analogy of like seven matters out of ten, you've you've been able to just go into the office as a rep, what's happened, what's going on, how can we do it?
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.079
We do it all the time.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.240
Yeah.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:52.400
Usually uh incidents are uh communication breakdown or just a just a mistake.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.440
People make mistakes, everyone acknowledges that's part of our industry.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:56.480
That's the just culture.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:56.880
Yeah.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:01.039
If yeah, um and we We defend that.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:06.000
Um a lot of times people have just made an honest mistake and they shouldn't be punished for that.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.480
So and we and we defend that every day.
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:22.160
Uh communication breakdowns, we we intervene with a phone call, and we've rebuilt a lot of relationships with senior managers now, and we can resolve issues with phone calls where previously we couldn't, they would end up in court.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:30.400
Um so we've been able to to uh essentially alleviate a lot of alleviate a lot of that heartache for our members and for the companies as well.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:36.559
It's it's costly and time consuming, consumes a lot of their resources to take to discipline people.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.519
Um they don't really want to do it a lot of the time.
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.000
So if we can avoid that, that's what we'll do.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.519
Uh and that's what we have done.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.240
I can't say enough about what Luke just said there.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:46.720
Yeah.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:23:14.960
I have relationships with my counterparts in the rarest airlines, and to be able to make that phone call and have a without prejudice discussion where it goes nowhere between the two people that are on the phone call and work your way through the issue and more often than not convince that person on the other side that this is why they're going down the wrong path, and we think that you should come this way.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:19.759
That's what we achieve by having those relationships.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:30.160
I must admit it was very adversarial once upon a time, and you'd make a phone call and get told, No, I'm not talking to you today.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.759
Yeah, don't get not talking, don't see you in court.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:34.720
Wow.
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:35.599
Yeah.
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:52.400
One one of the things uh being a part of the association for many, many years, and I think what has dawned on me in the recent year being a part of the executive is that you you see your work primarily as dealing with guys who've got themselves in a TIFF.
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.119
And but you do a lot more work than that.
00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:01.039
You you deal with uh CASA and regulation issues, um, other industrial issues.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.559
Um things can get, you know, it's it's a big tree that you deal with.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:16.799
So really guys getting themselves into trouble, whether it's um workplace behaviour or an um uh a legal matter, a maintenance incident or something like that, really is just one branch of the stuff you do.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:22.400
Some of the other stuff you do is like with CASA and and the industrial infrastructure of the planet.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:23.920
I I mean how do we put it?
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:31.039
Yeah, with with the CASA stuff, uh I tend to leave that to Glenn and I've been riding his coattails in terms of learning.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:31.359
Yeah.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:36.480
Now, in saying that though, I have had to provide members with advice.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:48.880
For example, there was a member over in Adelaide who wanted to know whether he was required to keep up to date with the aircraft flight manuals.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:55.599
And I had to go digging in the CASARs and pull out the section that says nah, that's onus is on the operator.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.440
Go back to the operator and say no, not your responsibility.
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:04.799
So, in in that regard, I yeah, we provide a lot of that advice in terms of our dealings with CASA.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.319
Uh Glynn does a lot of that.
00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:08.559
Yep.
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:08.799
Yep.
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.480
Because he's the general manager as well, so that's his station as well.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.000
Because there's always lots of changes that the government wants to do.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.039
Airlines put pressure on CASA to do changes.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:25.119
We are there to ensure that the Australian standards are maintained, and some of these changes don't happen.
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:36.079
And interestingly enough, what you say there in terms of that CASA issue, well not that CASA issue, but a CASA issue, yeah, was with foreign license holders.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:41.359
And there's probably another aspect of the law that I get involved is the immigration law now.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:41.839
Wow.
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:49.680
With with what we do, and we've had to provide advice to members in terms of their their 482s, their 186s, their 494s.
00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:55.599
I used to do a little bit of immigration work, but that was just as pro bono now actually doing it for the ALAA.
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:57.359
So yeah.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.240
It can get quite involved and quite deep.
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:01.839
Well, we we do everything.
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:05.759
You know, we we do have members that reach rock bottom.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:06.240
Wow.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.000
And you've got to just tell them to come into the office.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:10.559
Wow.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:20.559
And just have a chat to them about life in general and where they're gonna get work, yeah, their life on there being derailed, and you've got to talk to them about that aspect of it.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:32.480
And that's one thing where I believe we're different to most other uh lawyers being working for the union is that in law school they teach you that you should never sympathize with your client.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:46.160
But I don't call our members clients, I I call them they're friends, yeah, you know, and that's probably the biggest sin that I'll ever commit being a lawyer is that I sympathize where no Sean empathy, it's always empathy.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:49.440
No, you can't when you're involved in people's lives.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:57.359
And one thing I think one thing about employment, the most important asset you've ever got in your life is your job.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.960
Yeah, everyone will say my home, my family, and just yeah, that's true.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.880
But at the end of the day, without your employment, you can't look after all those other aspects of your life.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:07.359
Yeah.
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.880
So that that's why to me it's always very important.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.839
And one thing about uh working for the union movement is you're not gonna get rich.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.680
You know, but you go home with a clear conscience every night.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:26.079
God knows I've committed enough sins in this world that I wipe my slate of a few of them by doing what I do.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.039
As an organization or an industry, I would probably probably put it as an industry.
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:35.200
What's some of the things that you foresee that's important for us to work on?
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:42.240
I know it's cliche to say this in the current climate, but AI, yes, I I'd really love to know.
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.400
I'm an old dog and yeah, I'm barely learning new tricks.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.640
Yeah, I'm coming to the end of my journey.
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:54.079
I think I've got about 10-15 years left in me before they'll put me out into the knackery.
00:27:54.079 --> 00:28:09.279
But uh with the AI, uh I my jury's still out, pardon the legal pun as to where it's going to go for our members because they're still very hands-on.
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:15.759
I don't think AI will ever ever be able to replace that eyes-on job that the Laney performs.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:23.920
But you've got paperwork and processes that operate in the background, and and that's what concerns me.
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:33.759
I shouldn't say the word concern, but it's something that we should be monitoring as to how it's uh going to affect our members' in terms of their work.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.920
Oh, I said the day I see AI put its hand down a toilet to unblock it, that's when I'll get worried.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:38.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:40.480
Bring it on.
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:47.599
I'll be good at that about it's yeah, save myself doing it, mate.
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.680
No, look, Sean, um, thanks for coming in today.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.640
Not a problem.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:55.839
Um, we have worked together on a number of issues.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.759
You've been extraordinary, you've been a fantastic support.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:06.880
Um just investing in you guys to, as I said, you're hyper focused on our industry, and I think it's really important.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:32.240
And I really wanted to bring you in today to talk about that because you know, when when it gets serious and the serious work happens, you guys are working, and and I wanted the members to to to hear that and to to obviously through the the visuals see the work you do, and and um I guess maybe the executive we can get a little bit of credit because we're standing in in front of the members all day, every day.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:37.440
But honestly, Luke, you know, these guys uh we couldn't even begin to do the work we do without them.
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:38.400
Oh, 100%, yeah.
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:39.759
It was the best thing we ever did.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:45.200
Um hiring Sean worth every penny.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.720
But no, look, thank you for coming.
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.920
I heard you say you didn't want money, you just wanted a bottle of scotch at all.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.119
Another sin I've got to get rid of the slate.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:59.039
But look, thank you, Sean.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:04.799
You're amazing, and um look, I I hope we can still do a couple more good years of work together.
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:05.599
And 100%.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.680
And I think we will be.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:09.039
So I'm nowhere.
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.319
Yeah, no, that's great.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.079
And look, thank you for coming in today.
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:16.240
And what what a fantastic guy and really, really proud.
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:17.759
Worth his wedding gold.
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.519
It is, and um I'm heavy, but he's pretty heavy.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:26.720
But look, I guess that starts to finish up our episode two.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.559
It's our our trial episode uh for the association.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.279
Um, you know, look, thanks for this opportunity, Luke, and and Rod if you're listening.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:37.200
Thanks for for thanks for doing it, mate.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:45.119
I I hope and I think we will go forward um with some more episodes and um a series and and hope to do it regularly.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:54.960
Um if uh we get positive feedback and and members out there who are listening, um, reach out to your reps, um, send it an email.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:01.279
Uh obviously uh the platforms that we'll be putting this on will have um comments which we will read.
00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:05.920
Um if you like this uh and you want us to continue, uh we will do it.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:14.079
We I will we focused on these two episodes to get to know us, uh to get to know where we've been, where we're going, and um what we've done.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:18.160
Um and obviously about our management structure, which is really, really important.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.599
But for the future, I I hope that we can talk more about news, what's been happening.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:35.440
Um, I'd like to bring in some people from the past, um, you know, from the 60s and the 70s who are a part of the union and talk about old times and some incidents or some events that happened.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:41.359
And I think that's quite valuable lessons for us going forward and and how we can connect ourselves together.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:49.440
So if you like what you hear, give us some feedback and um if uh we get some positive feedback that'll be we we should be able to pull this together more regularly.
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:57.519
It'd be great if people would um yeah, tell us if they think it's a something that has value to them that uh and also what they want to hear.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:58.079
Yeah.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.519
And something specific you want to know about, let us know and we'll tell it.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:02.000
As well.
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.319
Obviously, if you've got if you've got ideas for topics or segments that you'd like to hear about, we we want to hear from you.
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:12.559
And more importantly, um, this does take a lot of legwork.
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:20.160
And as you said, and I will remind everybody that the executive, we are all volunteers, we all have full-time jobs.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:25.519
Um, the the work that you especially, Luke, is is is horrific.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.880
But um, you know, we we we we commit a lot of time to doing our roles.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:45.759
Um, so if you want to get involved in podcasts, uh, especially if you're Sydney based because the union office is in Sydney, if you want to get involved in editing, um support, any involved in the podcast, please express interest to us, uh contact the office and let us know.
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:47.440
We'd love to have you along.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.400
Um, we we need to, I think we need to make this grow.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.960
So uh hopefully in the future we can do that.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:53.920
Fingers crossed.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:55.599
Guys, thanks a lot for coming along.
00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:56.640
Thanks for the opportunity.
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:58.160
Sean, thanks once again, mate.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.160
Thanks, Will.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.519
Hopefully, we'll see you soon.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:02.240
Thanks, everyone.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.640
You uh stay safe and keep them safe out there.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.759
See you later.
