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Well, what does 500 plus scuba dives have taught this executive about business leadership?
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Through half a century in the water, Dane Hudson has mastered the core tenets he brings to coaching, heightened awareness and disciplined deliberate action.
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Global CEO Dane Hudson is joining us on the What I've Learned podcast to talk about his new book, Discipline Beats Vision.
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With 25 years as a CEO across five industries, including Australia, the US, Asia, and Africa, he has had many roles in regional and in the Asia Pacific, overseeing 200,000 employees and a senior executive with Yam Restaurants International.
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Well, I'm looking forward to having a chat to Dane to hear about what he's learned on his very colourful journey.
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Welcome, Dane, to the What I've Learned Podcast.
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Well, thank you for having me, Deborah.
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Glad to be here.
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Pleasure.
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So, first of all, let's talk about what your trajectory has been and where you started, and then we can talk about what seems to be a very high-powered career, but one which you've also tamed by making sure you dip yourself in the ocean.
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Yeah, so I think probably the first thing I should mention is that I I had great guidance from my father.
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And he uh he really directed me very well.
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And he said, Dane, you're smart, but you'll never be the smartest person in the room.
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He said, I suggest you do a course like engineering, do well in that, and then down the track do an MBA.
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And I did that.
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I did my engineering degree, I did quite well and got a wonderful job with VisiBo.
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I remember Richard Pratt.
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I know them very well.
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I know them extremely well, and they are an extraordinary company to work with.
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Amazing.
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I've worked with them too.
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I didn't know that.
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Oh, that's great.
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I didn't know that.
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I was in their I was in their first four four graduates that they ever employed.
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And Richard didn't know what to do with me.
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So he made me general manager of one of the factories, and I was 22 years old.
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And it took us turning over$5 million, losing about$50,000 a month.
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And he said, Dane, fix it.
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Well, that's very Richard.
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And in fact, what a great honor to work with such an incredible businessman, because anybody who's worked at Visi, and I've also done work with Visi, they they are an extraordinary, extraordinary business, but also the mentorship and the way that Richard would operate was always giving people a fair go and giving them a chance.
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And that's just something about you too, the fact that he was prepared to trust this young 22-year-old with such a important, I mean, they take their business very seriously.
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So that wouldn't have been done lightly.
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So you must have been pretty scared, actually, to deliver on that.
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I was very scared.
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And but fortunately, Richard also gave me a couple of mentors who were senior leaders that taught me how to be a CEO.
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Um, but basically I had weekly Friday morning meetings with Richard Pratt and uh four or five other New South Wales general managers.
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They were all 50 plus years old and me at 22, all sitting around this table.
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And so I had a wonderful early learning of being exposed to great leaders, but learning how to be a leader.
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And gosh, I made some mistakes, but we also did very well by being.
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So I got the company in, it was profitable, not through any brilliance by me.
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It was just some great guidance from mentors helped me on the way.
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And that really set me up.
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So I was the general manager from the age of 22, and I was very fortunate to start that way.
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Well, you were fortunate too, because I think you've you've highlighted, which is very much what you put your your offering is, is how critical having a good mentor is when you're on a journey, whatever your age, actually, but particularly when you're young and being thrust into a big business like Visi, which just for our listeners, maybe you can just give a uh just a sentence on what Visi is and what you did there, so that they just to contextualize.
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Sure.
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So a Visi board was probably equal uh terms of size of the largest packaging company uh in Australia.
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So Amcor is another Australian company.
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Amcor and Visi were the largest packaging companies in Australia.
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And when I say packaging, they did corrugated boxes.
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So, you know, you buy a box of food, the corrugated is it's it's a good, it's three pieces of paper that make the cardboard, and they did a lot of other types of packaging.
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And uh Richard inherited the business.
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Richard was a was a football player and an actor, and he got a phone call from his mum when he was about 32 years old saying, Your father's passing away, you need to come back and run Visiboard.
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And he had no idea about business, but he came back, and the business was probably worth a million dollars then, and he turned it into uh you know$10 billion business.
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And then Anthony Pratt's taking it further since then.
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But it's packaging and it's a very family-oriented company.
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Even when I was there and we had two or three or four thousand people across Australia, he treated everyone in the company as family, he treated all customers family.
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So I learned a lot about customer centricity uh from Richard.
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Very true.
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And and having also worked with them and been quite close to them, I think that that's a really important lesson that I've also learned watching how they operate.
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They're basically incredibly loyal.
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If you're you're like families, so whether you're a friend or whether you work in the business, you're treated the same.
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And every there's always celebrations.
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I mean, some of those extraordinary celebrations that they still have, by the way, to honor and value their workers, the people that actually are the core of their business.
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So it's interesting that you had that very early experience, and then you obviously took that with you on your own journey.
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And tell me how that fed your trajectory through both the Visi business, but then beyond.
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So, as you mentioned in my book at the start, discipline beats vision.
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And I'm all I've always been incredibly disciplined and competitive.
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And I think that first job with Visi was a great example of being disciplined.
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I would get up at 4:30 in the morning and drive out to Liverpool, and I was about an hour and a quarter away to open the factory at 6 a.m.
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And then I'd shut the factory at 6 p.m.
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and drive home.
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And so getting up at you know 4:30 in the morning meant I'd need to be in bed by about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and all my friends were going out partying at 22 years old, and I learned discipline, which is if I really want to do this job, I've got to get to bed early and get up, get to bed early and get up early.
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But also, Richard, he would have been on the floor too, because he was always there at 4 a.m.
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He was always there early, he would be up early.
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Everyone used to, I'm not sure.
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So you really wanted to be there, didn't you, when he arrived?
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He he's he turned up at my factory at 6 a.m.
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many, many times.
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I'm sure.
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Yes.
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So that's interesting.
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So so you basically learned early how important discipline is.
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How did that though?
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I think the challenge is probably one thing that I think we observe with some of these great business people, and you can talk to this, is as well as being disciplined, one also has to be fulfilled and fueled.
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Yeah.
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So I all the people I work with and and that I've worked with over the years, I always say, you know, ask them whether they enjoy it, they're enjoying the job.
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Life's too short to not enjoy what you do.
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And rarely can I remember a day where I wasn't excited about getting out of bed and going to the office.
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And even in tough times, I did that sometimes when I was in the wine industry, and that was a very tough job that I had.
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It was the worst time in the wine industry's history, and it was a very tough time for Australian wine companies.
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And while I was a CEO, the share price went down about 90%.
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Um, that's a challenge.
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Terrifying.
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Yeah, so that that definitely hurt my ego.
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Did I make some bad decisions?
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One or two, but not not enough to drive the share price down 90%.
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The industry was just very difficult.
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Yeah.
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But we got we got the share price back up.
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But my my wife would say to me, How on earth do you get out of bed every morning and and go in?
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Because every day was a knife fight.
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Every day.
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And I did I said, Look, I'm there for the team, I'm there for the customers, and that's what I need to do.
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And we'll get through this.
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So one of the things I talk about in the book is leaders are you've got to be a person of hope.
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People are in the company.
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Yeah, people are in the company because of you.
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So we're talking about Visi earlier with Richard Pratt, people are there because of Richard.
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So if you're a CEO or very senior leader in the company, people are there and staying there because of you.
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And so even in tough times, particularly in tough times, you've really got to be optimistic, practical.
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You know, you can't sugarcoat everything, but you've got to be practical and go, we can get through this.
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We can get through this.
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So discipline and grit too, like at the at the end of the day, it's it's a resilience, it's a capacity to, you know, I actually see this even in people I'm surrounded by, like, um, you know, my husband who's a lawyer, and like I see this sort of incredible discipline, determination, and willingness to, you know, the deliverable is always at top of mind, and whatever needs to be done, he'll do.
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And same with all the partners and the lawyers that I'm surrounded by, which are many.
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It's a similar approach because it is a business-like approach, which is, and business people who have lawyers expect that too.
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So it's all part of being in a team, and you really can't ride that in that car unless you have the same intention or the same, you're going on the same route.
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Although one I will say, I do think, and this is something we can touch on, which I know you do reflect on, is one has to make sure that in driving that car to wherever you've got to go figuratively, that you have enough fuel in the tank and that you have enough resources to get there.
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And then at the same time, ensure that you somehow stay focused on the road, but also not so focused that you can't see what's on your right and your left.
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Absolutely.
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Actually, I was I was going to mention grit and resilience.
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So I'm pleased that you uh brought it up because you need both, and they are terrible, they're very different.
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So grit for me is a is a verb, it's a doing word.
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You you grit is is pushing forward, is making a decision.
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I can be proactive and work my way through this.
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Resilience only comes from scar tissue.
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Resilience only comes by actually getting through difficult situations and then putting your chest down, going, I know how to do this, I've done this before.
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And actually, it's one of the chapters in my book.
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I talk about actually how to be, how to, how to build risk and how to build resilience as well, and the things that you need to do as a leader to ensure that you can show up every day and do a great job.
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So it's extremely important.
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Yeah, very important.
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And I think though, I suppose there's old school and new school, and they're they're both sort of at the moment in the business world, there seems to be sort of a hybrid approach where people are also very into self-care, nurturing relationships, both within business, outside of business, which you also talk about.
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How do you ensure that all those?
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I feel there's a lot more discussion because I think the pressures, particularly not just men now, because there's so many women, probably more women who are even in the grit workforce in some ways.
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But I think that there's a huge price to pay, and a lot of people pay it or have paid it and are sick of paying it.
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So how do you find yet extraordinary success?
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Probably really, it's very rare that it comes without that.
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Whether you're 22, 35, or 60, you know, there's a sense that you have to have it in order to thrive, but at the same time, you've got to survive along the way.
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How do you navigate that?
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And what are your what's your guidance or mentorship for people trying to do both?
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So we're all we're all different.
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So we all handle anxiety in different ways.
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And so I'm not not suggesting it's easy for anyone to get through this, but there are some tools and approaches that anyone can use that will, I suppose, soften it and make it easy to get through.
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So a few ideas are um I talk about in the book the third space, and this is actually a concept concept Adam Fraser also wrote about 30 years ago.
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And it talks about creating space between time A and event A and event B.
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So a good example would be I'd be driving home from work and it'd be 6:30 at night or 7 o'clock at night, I get a phone call.
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And uh you never, ever, ever, ever get a good news phone call at 7 o'clock at night.
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It's always a bad news phone call.
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You have someone's resigning, we've lost the customer, something's gone wrong.
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You don't get good news phone calls at that time at night.
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So I'm driving home, I get a bad news phone call, and then I pull up in front of the house and I go through the call, my wife looks out the window at me and she said, What's what's Dane doing?
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And then she realized I'm on the phone.
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And then the phone call finishes, and actually, I don't want to confront the family because I'm all revved up.
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You know, I've been in battle on the phone call.
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Such a good description, yeah.
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And and I'd walk into the house and I'd got the spares, and you're like, honey, I'm home.
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But then I'd take 10 or 15 minutes.
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So I'd I'm a gym junkie, so I'd unpack my gym gear, repack my gym gear, plug in all my appliances, maybe have a shower, and then I would go down to my wife and family, and I'd be in a better place.
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So that third space me, that 10 or 15 minutes, was a way for me to reset.
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So we all need to find out how to reset.
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It might be between meetings, might be between Zoom calls.
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It could be three deep breaths, it could be walking to the coffee machine and just resetting.
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Because particularly as a leader, you're going from one meeting to the next meeting, and I use the concept of shadow of the leader.
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You have massive positional power.
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And anyone who meets with the CEO, it's career day.
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And so if you're the CEO, you'd you've got to give everyone free space and a free your free mindset to work with them.
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Yeah.
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And focus.
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And having bad energy or being frustrated going into that meeting is not the right place to be.
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So you need to learn how to reset.
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And it could be anything.
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So my challenge and working with my bet my my clients is how do you reset?
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What can you do differently?
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And it may not between be between every meeting, but maybe it's three times a day.
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What can you do to reset?
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And over time you get better at it.
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And I think also it's almost like when I listen to you, and I know so many people who work in the business world or the business sector, and I listen to that notion of reset.
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And as you say, it's different for everybody, but it's not always easy to do.
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And it's also not always easy to access what's going to work for you.
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For some people, they find their reset button.
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For others, it's a challenge.
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So I assume you work with them in a one-on-one capacity to facilitate them accessing what is their reset button to some degree.
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Have you found there is a change, particularly, I suppose, the younger generation?
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I feel like they, anyone under 30, they are working in a very different way, generally.
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I mean, yes, they're still thrashing them out at the law firms, making them stay till 11 p.m.
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or whatever.
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I mean, that hasn't changed for the big firms.
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But I'm giving an example in the business sector, there's still deliverables are the same, but there's also this approach of ensuring not just a reset button, but an actual reframing of how you work.
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Have you noticed that change?
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And how how do you accommodate that?
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Well, I've got three amazing daughters, 35, 33, and and 31.
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And they're all doing very well in their careers, they're all married and actually having having getting having grandchildren from them.
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So maybe they're not below 30, but they're there in the same genre, similar to me.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and they definitely have different expectations.
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And and they're not they're not unrealistic expectations.
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They're fair expectations.
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I suppose when I was going through, I didn't have expectations of what was fair.
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I was I was okay being flogged.
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I was a booze out and consultant for six years.
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I worked till midnight four nights a week.
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I worked four out of five Saturdays and three out of five Sundays.
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And that's just important to do.
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Yeah, well, but I think that's not uncommon, particularly for that generation.
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I just think that was the way that everybody was raised.
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I don't there was no opt-out, or there's no, like, for example, you know, you talk about children, like my son who's in his 20s, he's my youngest, but his approach is he's working for a big tech company, which is global, but they are very, very clear that, you know, you need to work full-time, but do as you, you know, go into the office a few days a week, work from home a few days a week, and without fail, he'll be at the gym or the beach toptailing his workday to ensure that his mental health is, you know, he's very incredibly developed, I think, for a 20-year-old, 20, he's 20, nearly 24, but that, I mean, we just didn't, there was no option to work like that or to think like that, was there?
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So there's that's a good thing, don't you think?
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It is, it is a good thing.
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And but so anyone needs anyone needs to find out, and it's different for everyone, but people need to work out what's their reset and how do they do it.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.279
Is it the gym in the morning, the beach in the afternoon?
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.119
Is it going to Pilates in the morning and going for a walk at lunch?
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:31.759
Is it and and it's never going to be what you want, but hopefully it's going to be what you need.
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.000
And then over time, you've also got to realize that stress is cumulative.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.559
And I didn't realize that when I was younger.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:44.000
I just worked my my backside off and I always handled the stress and I thought I was immortal.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:49.920
And then suddenly, when I was in my late 40s, I'm going, actually, no, this has affected me.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.200
Really stressed.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:52.559
And I never thought about that.
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.400
My behavior was different in the office, my behavior was different at home.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.839
And that was just self-awareness that I I knew that I really wasn't in the right spot and I needed to get my head in the right spot.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.319
And so that's where as a media, you've got to have what did you do to do that?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.680
I I had some help.
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:16.640
I went to some people to talk to them to get some guidance on how and and also I realized it was okay.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:16.960
Yeah.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:19.599
It's so normal.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:26.799
In fact, what I think is happening with the next generation, they're looking at that generation and going, I don't want to live like that.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:37.440
I mean, I think there is a real reflection where the younger generation is saying, I want to work hard and I want to get places, but I don't want to arrive at 40 burnt out and broken.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:56.960
Because it's something that I think that particularly men of that generation, your generation, and now it's it's not only, as you say, normal, it's actually completely acceptable to seek help, get guidance, and get support, which is that's I think that that's good for the next gen.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:07.680
In the meantime, there are still lots of people working in the way that you're describing, particularly in our sort of genre.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:16.480
Do you think that the way that everybody was raised through the corporate sector, your description of working the way you did?
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:21.200
I mean, of course, by the burnout was just almost on the table before.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.279
I mean, that's just obvious that's going to happen.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.839
Because no one's immortal, as you say.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.160
So, what do you tell people who are stuck in that rut in a way?
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:36.720
So, I I've I've read quite a few books on emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.359
So he's the guru on emotional intelligence.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:48.559
He talks about sort of the self-awareness, he talks about self-control, he talks about social awareness and social skills.
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:55.759
And he categorizes and he says, those are the four pillars of emotional intelligence, which I love.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:12.880
And that first one is just having the ability to see yourself, look in the mirror and see yourself and understand how you're behaving, how you're leading, how you're handling situations, and going, actually, no, this isn't right.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.480
I'm not handling this the right way.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:21.119
Maybe you've got a stakeholder, someone in the office you can, head of HR or something, can tap on your shoulder and say, Hey, Dane, are you okay?
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:25.599
This is the way you're handling situations, is not in the same manner.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.039
Are you doing okay?
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.440
And then you go, well, okay, no, I'm not.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:30.000
What's driving?
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.039
Is it lack of sleep?
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:32.880
Is it stress and anxiety?
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.279
Is it a problem of distraction?
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:38.960
You're having an issue with your partner or your parents or something like that.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:45.200
And so that's where you need the help, which is to actually triangulate down and actually what's causing this problem.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:54.480
And so I'm really a big fan of the concept of this shadow of the leader, which is have the positional power that you have, being very aware of your shadow.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.759
And that's probably one of the leading concepts that I try to teach my mentees.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.200
Which is be very aware of your leadership shadow, your impact, and use it, I'm sure you're using it for good, not evil.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.000
Okay, can you just extrapolate that a little bit?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:19.759
I don't it's just so that we understand the shadow is is meant to be reflective of just to clarify, just so I understand.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.680
Good question.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:27.359
So if you're on a CEO a CEO, you have massive positional power.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:27.920
Yeah.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:37.279
So if if Anthony Albanese with Prime Minister was attending a meeting with 300 people, everyone in the room would know where he's sitting.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.359
Everyone would know if he got up and walked away.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:47.839
He has massive positional power given his his role as prime minister.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:48.960
Exactly.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.319
We all have that.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.880
Parents, we know that very well.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.440
Our kids copy us from a very young age.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:10.640
So in the business environment, people are watching the CEO and the senior leaders, and they're taking cues from those leaders, and those leaders are role models, and they can be role models in good ways or bad ways.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:22.079
And so as a leader, you've got to be immensely aware that everything you say and do is multiplied in terms of impact because of your role.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.640
That's your leadership shadow.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.440
And the more senior you get, the more powerful that shadow is.
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:30.480
Yeah.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:30.799
Yeah.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.279
A good example would be in my last role, I was very cautious.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.599
I led 200,000 people across Asia.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.319
Uh we had 60,000 people in India.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.799
And so I went to India just about every month.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:49.519
And I would remember, I'd go there and I would say something like, We probably should think about doing this.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:51.119
Have you thought about doing this?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.440
And then I go back a month later and they say, Hey Dane, we implemented that.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.160
And I went, I didn't tell, yeah, you told us to implement it.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.279
I said, No, no, no, I told you to think about, investigate.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.799
But what they heard was the boss saying, do this.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:05.680
Yeah.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:12.720
So you've got to be very careful because often as leaders, we we don't necessarily remember everything we say to people.
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.599
They remember everything we say to them.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:16.240
Yeah.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.640
And so you have a lot of, you wield a lot of power.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:37.759
And you have to also that power, as you say, can be used to guide and steer the ship and make sure that people are, I suppose, learn, which is what this whole podcast is about, what they've learned, you know, about how to lead, but also not just the leaders, it's also the people that you are leading, is what you're saying, need to be also mindful of all this.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.400
Like what are they learning while they're watching the leaders?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.559
And so you could apply it on both sides of the coin in a way.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.519
You can.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.359
So you're effectively role modeling the behaviors that you want your team to execute.
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.960
And so another example would be meeting discipline.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:59.519
That a lot of my clients, I work a lot with venture capital and startup firms.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.440
That's probably 80% of my clients.
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:02.319
And I love it.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.279
These young kids, 25 to 35 years old, with these brilliant ideas.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:09.920
But a lot of them have never seen role model leaders.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.279
They haven't worked in the corporate space, they've never seen good leaders or bad leaders.
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:18.960
So often their only role models are their parents, and they may all may not be good role models.
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.440
And so, you know, I talk to them about creating accountability.
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.079
How do you create accountability in the business?
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.039
And a good example is if you don't have meeting discipline, you won't create accountability in your in your company.
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:42.960
If you don't start, if you don't go into meeting with an agenda, start your meeting on time, finish your meeting on time, send out follow-up minutes within four or five hours.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.519
That discipline creates accountability.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.319
Because also what happens, your team copy that and they start having meetings the same way.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:56.640
So that's what I mean by setting a shadow role modeling behaviors that you you want others to execute.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:05.119
I think that's so interesting, the meeting concept, because I do, I mean, obviously, meetings have I mean a very critical and pivotal role in business.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:14.559
And there's not a business that I've worked in or you've worked in where there's not meetings, but sometimes, you know, there's too many meetings, and there's so many meetings that you actually have a meeting to plan a meeting.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:21.039
And there's an element where, particularly in the big corporates I've worked with or that my husband's worked with, there's a sense of that.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.160
I mean, you talk about that.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:28.960
I know that that's an example that you were just showing of like how important accountability and all of that is very critical.
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:43.440
But at the same time, I do think people are doing my observation, particularly in startup world, I'm working with a startup at the moment, is there is a slight tweaking of the way things were done too.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:57.039
And that's not a bad thing, but it has to be done, as you're saying, with the arches or the core tenets of business reapplied, reinvented in a fresh way.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:57.680
Exactly.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.759
Because they're not going to do it the same way.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.720
So I'm sure you get pushback from some of the startups in terms of those.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:05.519
Absolutely.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.920
Yeah, because I think that's important too.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:09.680
So we're talking about evolution.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:11.440
Tell me about you personally.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.680
You, you know, obviously you're a diver, a big diver from what I've read.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:22.079
And that requires that's almost the antithesis of or is it, you tell me.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:29.920
That's your, you know, to deep dive into the ocean 500 times all the time is like really quite, yeah.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:31.680
So so what's that about?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.200
Well, firstly, an element of it would be being present, be here now.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.000
So again, I encourage leaders to think that way.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.680
Be present, be you know focused on someone.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.200
It's a career day for them.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.240
If you're the CEO, so be focused and be present.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.440
Be here now.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.440
So the diving piece is very much like that.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:56.960
When you're in the water, you know, you're very focused on what's around you and just enjoying the experience.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:02.240
You're not thinking about anything else when you're you know 150 feet, 100 feet under the surface.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.400
So being very present.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.559
Um, also it's my I found it's my place of zen.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.400
I, you know, my heart rate drops, I my breathing, I barely breathe.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.359
And so I just you know I'm in a wonderful, calm, neutral space.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.440
So I find it very energizing.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:27.680
So I go on these liverboard dive trips where you do you know three, four, five dives a day, and it's just wonderful.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.960
So you're underwater for you know about six hours each day.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:32.720
It's just uh wonderful, wonderful.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:43.119
And you know, I know there are there's smarter technology, you know, like LOLMs and flying to the moon and things like that, but I think breathing underwater is up there for me.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:56.160
Well, clearly, but I think everyone seeks, particularly if you're in an extreme work environment where you're constantly on tap, listening, hearing, engaging, flipping, you know, it's like very intense.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:04.160
To find peace is the challenge from what I hear from a lot of business people, finding your peace.
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:13.839
And it's and it's not just a yoga class, which works for some people, but it seems it needs to be a deep dive, literally, for someone like you.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:19.839
And that doesn't surprise me because it's sort of the antithesis of the noise of business.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:28.400
But it also, I suppose, requires the bravery and the adventurous explorative, you know, personality.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.880
Because for some people, that is not a place of peace.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:35.119
It's actually terrifying to go, you know, deep dive and go below the surface.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.519
So as you say, everyone finds their beat.
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:44.640
But do you think were there skills that you think that you have in business that you apply when you go diving?
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.480
Or vice versa, I should say.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.839
Yeah, that yeah.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:55.119
So um, you know, when you're planning the dive and going on the dive, you you do need to be very aware of safety aspects.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:02.400
So a lot of the companies I've worked in, safety was very critical because we had industrial workers, frontline workers, et cetera.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.160
So, you know, same thing when you're diving.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:05.599
Okay, is my tank full?
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:11.920
All the checks you go through, if something goes wrong, being calm and handling the situation.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.200
So, a good example.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.920
My youngest daughter came diving with me, Komodo, about uh three years ago.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:21.519
And it was a night dive, so it was about 8:30 at night.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:22.319
It was pitch black.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:29.359
We were about close to 100 feet under the water, swimming on, couldn't see it, barely see anything, had some torches going.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.279
And she looks at me and starts going like that.
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.960
It's when she had no air.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:38.720
And she's probably only dive done 20 dives in her life, and she's going, I have no air.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.960
But she stayed calm and we got the dive mass, and we then did buddy breathing and got her out safely.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:54.400
But that's a good example of just saying there was a crisis, just handle it, and you know the you know what you should do, just execute that.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:55.680
And it was fine.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:56.400
It worked out.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:13.279
But well, I'm glad it did, and and that's a very, I suppose, a very important lesson, and a very, as we know, we're just saying this terrible accident yesterday, which we won't reflect on, and the male dives of divers, which was that they still think something went very, very wrong there, which is to be uncovered.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:14.640
It's a terrible story.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:23.680
But there's lots of people, as you say, that dive, and you know, adventure is also very much part of a skill set, I think, to equip one's humanity.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:32.640
You know, your the humanity sometimes I think business, in my observation, can repress in order to do the discipline that you're talking about.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.559
You sort of have to repress some very natural urges.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.599
For example, you've got to sit in an office, right?
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:42.799
Generally all day and have no sunlight.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.680
And I just go, I don't get that.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:57.519
I'm don't, that's not my work because I a journalist, I'm out and about and I'm but the corporate world, when I have worked in it and what I observe is incredibly repressive by its nature.
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:11.440
The expectation that you will sit in that chair at that computer, going in and out of meetings, or going to, you know, you might move to the board table and then you're back doing your tap-tap, then you're back on the board table for a meeting.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:16.079
There's something really unnatural to me about that on one level.
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:22.480
And so the need to therefore have the capacity to be adventurous and go out into the world.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:28.000
For you, it's a deep dive, is surely that's the yin and the yang, isn't it?
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.960
Yeah, it is.
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:36.559
It's but it's going back to your your challenge about you know going from board meeting to another meeting and bouncing around.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:51.279
It also depends on how you mentally frame that, which uh I always loved, I'd love that the mental nimble nimbleness required to go from one issue to another issue to working with someone.
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.759
Yeah, the dynamic nature, continuing to learn, supporting people on their journey.
00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:01.359
I love, I love that, you know, and yeah, you you don't need senior leaders if everything goes well all the time.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:04.000
So I I I love that.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:13.359
But then I also worked out that you also need the flip side, yeah, which is the the moments of quiet and uh peace to reset.
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.839
And if you don't, you get that stress just again accumulates, etc.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:19.599
So just find your thing.
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.799
So I took up playing the guitar five years ago, so now I'm doing that.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:31.200
And I there's a guitar group I played with on a Thursday night as well, and so just continue to do different things, continue to reinvent yourself.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:36.160
So I I talk about in my book being a relentless student.
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:44.240
So a bit different to avid learner, but a relentless student, and that's about continuing to reinvent yourself.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:55.359
So I've been able to reinvent myself six times as a CEO, six different industries, and I've reinvented myself as a coach and mentor, and I suppose lately I've now reinvented myself as an author.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.400
And that's what keeps you young, mentally young anyway.
00:33:58.720 --> 00:33:59.039
100%.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:07.440
And it's also their evolution is critical, you know, they say, and then just in in the scheme of things, you know, you clearly fill your cut on many fronts.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:24.800
How hard is that for you with relationships because personal relationships, because you're, you know, working flat chat on the deliverables, and then you have to move to the recovery or the respite and find a way to navigate that and then find the space.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:34.400
I mean, you're probably a better partner because you do do those things, because in some ways that allows you to evolve, but it means there's only so many hours in a day.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:40.400
So I've um moved country 11 times, I've moved house 29 times.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.039
That's incredible.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.480
Uh but I've had the same, I've had the same wife for 38 years.
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.159
Well, well done you.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:47.440
That's a good effort.
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:48.800
And well done her too.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.000
Yeah, well done.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:55.440
More to her than and she's done an amazing job almost as a single parent because I've always traveled.
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:59.679
So but in the book, I I talk about making your partner your partner.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.679
And that's really critical.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.679
I would be nowhere near, nowhere near the career I had if it wasn't for my wife Melinda.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:12.079
And so I actually dedicate the book to her and because she supported me.
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.840
She allowed me to, I suppose, reach my goals and targets.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:26.400
And, you know, that was tough for her because she probably could have been a CEO in her own right, but she gave up a career to actually support me and gallivant around the world.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:31.280
And she loved that journey, but she made some personal sacrifices to do that.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:37.679
But she was a wonderful is, a great partner for me, and has helped guide me in so many ways.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.760
And so I've got a chapter on creating a support network and a critical element.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.480
The first element of that is make your partner your partner.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:53.199
Your partner will hopefully outlive the and the relationship will hopefully outlive the length of time you're in a company.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.920
That's right.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.679
So be careful about sacrificing your company for a startup.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:00.000
That's right, your partner for a startup.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.079
I was about to say, yeah, that's right.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.000
Your partner hopefully will relationship will outlive the time you spent in the company.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.840
That's absolutely true.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.559
Yeah.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.679
I talk about a partner, a mentor, uh a support network or friends.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:23.039
So you think about tennis players, you know, Djokovic or old uh Carlos Sinner, uh Carlos Carlos Arkaran, sorry.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:23.280
Yeah.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:29.039
And when they came to Australia for the Australian Open, they had teams of 10 people looking after them.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:37.599
Now, as a CEO, you don't need that many, but you need a partner, you need maybe someone to help you for exercise, the nutrition, and you need a coach or a mentor.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:44.320
So surround your people, yourself with people that are going to support you on the journey and not bring you down.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:46.639
But be cheerleaders.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:47.840
Be cheerleaders.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:50.800
And you know, you do reflect on your wife.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:57.119
And I think that is important because I think she obviously got the privilege of enjoying your journey with you.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:02.159
And obviously, I'm assuming she had her own journey, whatever that was, or however she evolved.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:09.440
But obviously, and you've got kids, three kids, and and that's in itself a massive achievement and project.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:10.559
I have the same.
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:19.119
So I think the question is, you know, somebody who said somebody said when you've got a partnership, you know, somebody will be 80%, the other will be 20%.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:21.440
You're never 50-50 all the time, right?
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.400
It's sort of that.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:37.760
It involves have you found a moment in time where your trajectory has been changed to accommodate hers, or is it been predominantly you've been the the sort of the captain, which is which is completely common and normal.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.679
There's no judgment in that question.
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.960
Yeah, I better answer this truthfully because she listened to it.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.840
Um so she would go volume.
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:50.719
She would say that Dane is very good with this me time and looking after me.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.440
She said, I'm very good at cocooning myself.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:55.039
So I've done that my whole life.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:01.440
So an example would be if I'm flying from I was just returned from 10 years in Singapore.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.320
But I and I was traveling internationally every month.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:14.719
And so, you know, I learned how to be able to work overnight or do an overnight flight and get up the next morning on the plane and go straight to the office and be effective.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:20.079
So I I created approaches that meant I could always be effective when I landed.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.599
And so that was just me cocooning myself.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:29.119
And I've that sort of extended to my life that I've always had tough jobs and I do look after me.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.880
So that's being honest.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:39.039
Um I probably haven't sacrificed enough for Melinda, but we've got a wonderful relationship, and where I can, particularly now, I'm trying to do more and more.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:46.800
And she's very very, she's been very understanding of my role and going, look, I know that's you can't always be there.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.480
So one of the things we we agreed early was not negotiables.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.039
So what was really critical for her that were not negotiables?
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.239
And that's one of the things I'd encourage with my clients as well.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.800
Just as partners, you know, work out what's negotiable and what's non-negotiable.
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:11.920
Your partner might need two hours off on a Saturday morning to go to Pilates and get his or her exercise.
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.679
So that would be one example.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:17.920
Another one would be kids, school, parent-teacher things.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.119
That's a not negotiable.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.519
Events are not negotiable.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:28.400
Date nights, that's one of the things we did quite a lot, which we're a Friday night every two weeks or so, a date night.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.639
And on those date nights, we would have vetoed topics.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.280
It's so easy as a couple to talk about the kids or your parents and work.
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.960
So we go out and go, we can't talk about kids tonight, we can't talk about work tonight, and we can't talk about our parents.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:48.559
So what that means is you actually talk about the same sort of topics that you did when you actually started dating together.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:49.119
Yeah.
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:49.679
Yeah.
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:51.280
That's really interesting.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:40:05.599
And I like the fact that your mentorship is a full circle, that it doesn't just focus, which is important, on the business discipline, but it focuses on the whole, the holistic approach because I think that's what everyone needs.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:10.480
And I think that's certainly the future and all the startups and all of the new businesses I'm seeing.
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:11.760
That's the approach.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:13.280
So thank you so much.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.920
We really appreciate your words of wisdom.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.079
Thank you so much, Jane, for joining us.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:23.199
Me too.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.960
Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've learned podcast.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:39.599
I hope you enjoy that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned as Cross Mountains climbed.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:46.079
We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:52.400
So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the One Up Learn Podcast.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:15.199
Well, what does 500 plus scuba dives have taught this executive about business leadership?
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:24.800
Through half a century in the water, Dane Hudson has mastered the core tenets he brings to coaching, heightened awareness and disciplined deliberate action.
00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:34.079
Global CEO Dane Hudson is joining us on the What I've Learned podcast to talk about his new book, Discipline Beats Vision.
00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:52.479
With 25 years as a CEO across five industries, including Australia, the US, Asia, and Africa, he has had many roles in regional and in the Asia Pacific, overseeing 200,000 employees and a senior executive with Yam Restaurants International.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:01:00.880
Well, I'm looking forward to having a chat to Dane to hear about what he's learned on his very colourful journey.
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:04.239
Welcome, Dane, to the What I've Learned Podcast.
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.319
Well, thank you for having me, Deborah.
00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:07.439
Glad to be here.
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:09.120
Pleasure.
00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:25.359
So, first of all, let's talk about what your trajectory has been and where you started, and then we can talk about what seems to be a very high-powered career, but one which you've also tamed by making sure you dip yourself in the ocean.
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:34.560
Yeah, so I think probably the first thing I should mention is that I I had great guidance from my father.
00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.239
And he uh he really directed me very well.
00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:43.280
And he said, Dane, you're smart, but you'll never be the smartest person in the room.
00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:50.319
He said, I suggest you do a course like engineering, do well in that, and then down the track do an MBA.
00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:51.359
And I did that.
00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:57.040
I did my engineering degree, I did quite well and got a wonderful job with VisiBo.
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:58.879
I remember Richard Pratt.
00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.719
I know them very well.
00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.599
I know them extremely well, and they are an extraordinary company to work with.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:06.959
Amazing.
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:07.920
I've worked with them too.
00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:09.280
I didn't know that.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:10.319
Oh, that's great.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:11.039
I didn't know that.
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:16.800
I was in their I was in their first four four graduates that they ever employed.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.840
And Richard didn't know what to do with me.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:24.319
So he made me general manager of one of the factories, and I was 22 years old.
00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.639
And it took us turning over$5 million, losing about$50,000 a month.
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.800
And he said, Dane, fix it.
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:32.639
Well, that's very Richard.
00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:51.280
And in fact, what a great honor to work with such an incredible businessman, because anybody who's worked at Visi, and I've also done work with Visi, they they are an extraordinary, extraordinary business, but also the mentorship and the way that Richard would operate was always giving people a fair go and giving them a chance.
00:02:51.520 --> 00:03:00.400
And that's just something about you too, the fact that he was prepared to trust this young 22-year-old with such a important, I mean, they take their business very seriously.
00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.479
So that wouldn't have been done lightly.
00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:06.400
So you must have been pretty scared, actually, to deliver on that.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:09.039
I was very scared.
00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:16.400
And but fortunately, Richard also gave me a couple of mentors who were senior leaders that taught me how to be a CEO.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:24.639
Um, but basically I had weekly Friday morning meetings with Richard Pratt and uh four or five other New South Wales general managers.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:29.439
They were all 50 plus years old and me at 22, all sitting around this table.
00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:37.599
And so I had a wonderful early learning of being exposed to great leaders, but learning how to be a leader.
00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.159
And gosh, I made some mistakes, but we also did very well by being.
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:46.560
So I got the company in, it was profitable, not through any brilliance by me.
00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:49.599
It was just some great guidance from mentors helped me on the way.
00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:51.280
And that really set me up.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:57.680
So I was the general manager from the age of 22, and I was very fortunate to start that way.
00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:23.920
Well, you were fortunate too, because I think you've you've highlighted, which is very much what you put your your offering is, is how critical having a good mentor is when you're on a journey, whatever your age, actually, but particularly when you're young and being thrust into a big business like Visi, which just for our listeners, maybe you can just give a uh just a sentence on what Visi is and what you did there, so that they just to contextualize.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:25.040
Sure.
00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:31.360
So a Visi board was probably equal uh terms of size of the largest packaging company uh in Australia.
00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:33.360
So Amcor is another Australian company.
00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:36.879
Amcor and Visi were the largest packaging companies in Australia.
00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:39.680
And when I say packaging, they did corrugated boxes.
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:49.920
So, you know, you buy a box of food, the corrugated is it's it's a good, it's three pieces of paper that make the cardboard, and they did a lot of other types of packaging.
00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:52.480
And uh Richard inherited the business.
00:04:52.720 --> 00:05:03.439
Richard was a was a football player and an actor, and he got a phone call from his mum when he was about 32 years old saying, Your father's passing away, you need to come back and run Visiboard.
00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:12.240
And he had no idea about business, but he came back, and the business was probably worth a million dollars then, and he turned it into uh you know$10 billion business.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:14.959
And then Anthony Pratt's taking it further since then.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.079
But it's packaging and it's a very family-oriented company.
00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:26.480
Even when I was there and we had two or three or four thousand people across Australia, he treated everyone in the company as family, he treated all customers family.
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.439
So I learned a lot about customer centricity uh from Richard.
00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:30.399
Very true.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:40.800
And and having also worked with them and been quite close to them, I think that that's a really important lesson that I've also learned watching how they operate.
00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:42.879
They're basically incredibly loyal.
00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:48.959
If you're you're like families, so whether you're a friend or whether you work in the business, you're treated the same.
00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:50.639
And every there's always celebrations.
00:05:50.720 --> 00:06:01.759
I mean, some of those extraordinary celebrations that they still have, by the way, to honor and value their workers, the people that actually are the core of their business.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:07.920
So it's interesting that you had that very early experience, and then you obviously took that with you on your own journey.
00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:15.519
And tell me how that fed your trajectory through both the Visi business, but then beyond.
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:20.079
So, as you mentioned in my book at the start, discipline beats vision.
00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:24.879
And I'm all I've always been incredibly disciplined and competitive.
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:29.839
And I think that first job with Visi was a great example of being disciplined.
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:38.800
I would get up at 4:30 in the morning and drive out to Liverpool, and I was about an hour and a quarter away to open the factory at 6 a.m.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.040
And then I'd shut the factory at 6 p.m.
00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:42.399
and drive home.
00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:58.079
And so getting up at you know 4:30 in the morning meant I'd need to be in bed by about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and all my friends were going out partying at 22 years old, and I learned discipline, which is if I really want to do this job, I've got to get to bed early and get up, get to bed early and get up early.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:03.040
But also, Richard, he would have been on the floor too, because he was always there at 4 a.m.
00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.959
He was always there early, he would be up early.
00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.120
Everyone used to, I'm not sure.
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.079
So you really wanted to be there, didn't you, when he arrived?
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:14.959
He he's he turned up at my factory at 6 a.m.
00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:16.319
many, many times.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:17.519
I'm sure.
00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:18.160
Yes.
00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:19.439
So that's interesting.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.000
So so you basically learned early how important discipline is.
00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:26.000
How did that though?
00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:40.079
I think the challenge is probably one thing that I think we observe with some of these great business people, and you can talk to this, is as well as being disciplined, one also has to be fulfilled and fueled.
00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:41.040
Yeah.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:48.800
So I all the people I work with and and that I've worked with over the years, I always say, you know, ask them whether they enjoy it, they're enjoying the job.
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.079
Life's too short to not enjoy what you do.
00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:58.639
And rarely can I remember a day where I wasn't excited about getting out of bed and going to the office.
00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:05.759
And even in tough times, I did that sometimes when I was in the wine industry, and that was a very tough job that I had.
00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:12.639
It was the worst time in the wine industry's history, and it was a very tough time for Australian wine companies.
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.920
And while I was a CEO, the share price went down about 90%.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.959
Um, that's a challenge.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:20.000
Terrifying.
00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.079
Yeah, so that that definitely hurt my ego.
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.000
Did I make some bad decisions?
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.839
One or two, but not not enough to drive the share price down 90%.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:29.439
The industry was just very difficult.
00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:29.920
Yeah.
00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.159
But we got we got the share price back up.
00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:36.399
But my my wife would say to me, How on earth do you get out of bed every morning and and go in?
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.399
Because every day was a knife fight.
00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:39.279
Every day.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:44.559
And I did I said, Look, I'm there for the team, I'm there for the customers, and that's what I need to do.
00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:45.840
And we'll get through this.
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.639
So one of the things I talk about in the book is leaders are you've got to be a person of hope.
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.360
People are in the company.
00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:55.679
Yeah, people are in the company because of you.
00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.840
So we're talking about Visi earlier with Richard Pratt, people are there because of Richard.
00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:06.000
So if you're a CEO or very senior leader in the company, people are there and staying there because of you.
00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:14.240
And so even in tough times, particularly in tough times, you've really got to be optimistic, practical.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:20.399
You know, you can't sugarcoat everything, but you've got to be practical and go, we can get through this.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:21.919
We can get through this.
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:46.559
So discipline and grit too, like at the at the end of the day, it's it's a resilience, it's a capacity to, you know, I actually see this even in people I'm surrounded by, like, um, you know, my husband who's a lawyer, and like I see this sort of incredible discipline, determination, and willingness to, you know, the deliverable is always at top of mind, and whatever needs to be done, he'll do.
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.559
And same with all the partners and the lawyers that I'm surrounded by, which are many.
00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:58.000
It's a similar approach because it is a business-like approach, which is, and business people who have lawyers expect that too.
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:09.600
So it's all part of being in a team, and you really can't ride that in that car unless you have the same intention or the same, you're going on the same route.
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:26.159
Although one I will say, I do think, and this is something we can touch on, which I know you do reflect on, is one has to make sure that in driving that car to wherever you've got to go figuratively, that you have enough fuel in the tank and that you have enough resources to get there.
00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:35.360
And then at the same time, ensure that you somehow stay focused on the road, but also not so focused that you can't see what's on your right and your left.
00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:36.559
Absolutely.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.759
Actually, I was I was going to mention grit and resilience.
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:46.320
So I'm pleased that you uh brought it up because you need both, and they are terrible, they're very different.
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.960
So grit for me is a is a verb, it's a doing word.
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.000
You you grit is is pushing forward, is making a decision.
00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:59.440
I can be proactive and work my way through this.
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.279
Resilience only comes from scar tissue.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:13.279
Resilience only comes by actually getting through difficult situations and then putting your chest down, going, I know how to do this, I've done this before.
00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.200
And actually, it's one of the chapters in my book.
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:27.039
I talk about actually how to be, how to, how to build risk and how to build resilience as well, and the things that you need to do as a leader to ensure that you can show up every day and do a great job.
00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:29.279
So it's extremely important.
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:30.480
Yeah, very important.
00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:47.519
And I think though, I suppose there's old school and new school, and they're they're both sort of at the moment in the business world, there seems to be sort of a hybrid approach where people are also very into self-care, nurturing relationships, both within business, outside of business, which you also talk about.
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.320
How do you ensure that all those?
00:11:50.559 --> 00:12:02.240
I feel there's a lot more discussion because I think the pressures, particularly not just men now, because there's so many women, probably more women who are even in the grit workforce in some ways.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:09.200
But I think that there's a huge price to pay, and a lot of people pay it or have paid it and are sick of paying it.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.519
So how do you find yet extraordinary success?
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.720
Probably really, it's very rare that it comes without that.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:27.120
Whether you're 22, 35, or 60, you know, there's a sense that you have to have it in order to thrive, but at the same time, you've got to survive along the way.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:28.480
How do you navigate that?
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:34.080
And what are your what's your guidance or mentorship for people trying to do both?
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:36.240
So we're all we're all different.
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:39.360
So we all handle anxiety in different ways.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:54.559
And so I'm not not suggesting it's easy for anyone to get through this, but there are some tools and approaches that anyone can use that will, I suppose, soften it and make it easy to get through.
00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:05.120
So a few ideas are um I talk about in the book the third space, and this is actually a concept concept Adam Fraser also wrote about 30 years ago.
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:12.399
And it talks about creating space between time A and event A and event B.
00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:20.320
So a good example would be I'd be driving home from work and it'd be 6:30 at night or 7 o'clock at night, I get a phone call.
00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.879
And uh you never, ever, ever, ever get a good news phone call at 7 o'clock at night.
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.399
It's always a bad news phone call.
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.840
You have someone's resigning, we've lost the customer, something's gone wrong.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.000
You don't get good news phone calls at that time at night.
00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:42.080
So I'm driving home, I get a bad news phone call, and then I pull up in front of the house and I go through the call, my wife looks out the window at me and she said, What's what's Dane doing?
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.919
And then she realized I'm on the phone.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.960
And then the phone call finishes, and actually, I don't want to confront the family because I'm all revved up.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:50.960
You know, I've been in battle on the phone call.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:53.039
Such a good description, yeah.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.919
And and I'd walk into the house and I'd got the spares, and you're like, honey, I'm home.
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:00.159
But then I'd take 10 or 15 minutes.
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:12.399
So I'd I'm a gym junkie, so I'd unpack my gym gear, repack my gym gear, plug in all my appliances, maybe have a shower, and then I would go down to my wife and family, and I'd be in a better place.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:16.960
So that third space me, that 10 or 15 minutes, was a way for me to reset.
00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.600
So we all need to find out how to reset.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.360
It might be between meetings, might be between Zoom calls.
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:30.399
It could be three deep breaths, it could be walking to the coffee machine and just resetting.
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:37.519
Because particularly as a leader, you're going from one meeting to the next meeting, and I use the concept of shadow of the leader.
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.039
You have massive positional power.
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:42.320
And anyone who meets with the CEO, it's career day.
00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:50.639
And so if you're the CEO, you'd you've got to give everyone free space and a free your free mindset to work with them.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:51.039
Yeah.
00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:51.919
And focus.
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:57.919
And having bad energy or being frustrated going into that meeting is not the right place to be.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.080
So you need to learn how to reset.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:01.600
And it could be anything.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:07.039
So my challenge and working with my bet my my clients is how do you reset?
00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:08.320
What can you do differently?
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:12.960
And it may not between be between every meeting, but maybe it's three times a day.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:15.279
What can you do to reset?
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.440
And over time you get better at it.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:29.039
And I think also it's almost like when I listen to you, and I know so many people who work in the business world or the business sector, and I listen to that notion of reset.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.200
And as you say, it's different for everybody, but it's not always easy to do.
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:36.480
And it's also not always easy to access what's going to work for you.
00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.840
For some people, they find their reset button.
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.519
For others, it's a challenge.
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:50.559
So I assume you work with them in a one-on-one capacity to facilitate them accessing what is their reset button to some degree.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:55.679
Have you found there is a change, particularly, I suppose, the younger generation?
00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:02.480
I feel like they, anyone under 30, they are working in a very different way, generally.
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.559
I mean, yes, they're still thrashing them out at the law firms, making them stay till 11 p.m.
00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:07.039
or whatever.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.840
I mean, that hasn't changed for the big firms.
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:22.720
But I'm giving an example in the business sector, there's still deliverables are the same, but there's also this approach of ensuring not just a reset button, but an actual reframing of how you work.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.960
Have you noticed that change?
00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.679
And how how do you accommodate that?
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:33.279
Well, I've got three amazing daughters, 35, 33, and and 31.
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:39.440
And they're all doing very well in their careers, they're all married and actually having having getting having grandchildren from them.
00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.639
So maybe they're not below 30, but they're there in the same genre, similar to me.
00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:45.120
Yeah.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.559
Yeah, and they definitely have different expectations.
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.639
And and they're not they're not unrealistic expectations.
00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:54.159
They're fair expectations.
00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:59.840
I suppose when I was going through, I didn't have expectations of what was fair.
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.639
I was I was okay being flogged.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.960
I was a booze out and consultant for six years.
00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.119
I worked till midnight four nights a week.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:10.319
I worked four out of five Saturdays and three out of five Sundays.
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.559
And that's just important to do.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.559
Yeah, well, but I think that's not uncommon, particularly for that generation.
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.279
I just think that was the way that everybody was raised.
00:17:19.440 --> 00:18:03.920
I don't there was no opt-out, or there's no, like, for example, you know, you talk about children, like my son who's in his 20s, he's my youngest, but his approach is he's working for a big tech company, which is global, but they are very, very clear that, you know, you need to work full-time, but do as you, you know, go into the office a few days a week, work from home a few days a week, and without fail, he'll be at the gym or the beach toptailing his workday to ensure that his mental health is, you know, he's very incredibly developed, I think, for a 20-year-old, 20, he's 20, nearly 24, but that, I mean, we just didn't, there was no option to work like that or to think like that, was there?
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:05.920
So there's that's a good thing, don't you think?
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.920
It is, it is a good thing.
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:18.880
And but so anyone needs anyone needs to find out, and it's different for everyone, but people need to work out what's their reset and how do they do it.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.279
Is it the gym in the morning, the beach in the afternoon?
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.119
Is it going to Pilates in the morning and going for a walk at lunch?
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:31.759
Is it and and it's never going to be what you want, but hopefully it's going to be what you need.
00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.000
And then over time, you've also got to realize that stress is cumulative.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.559
And I didn't realize that when I was younger.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:44.000
I just worked my my backside off and I always handled the stress and I thought I was immortal.
00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:49.920
And then suddenly, when I was in my late 40s, I'm going, actually, no, this has affected me.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.200
Really stressed.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:18:52.559
And I never thought about that.
00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:56.400
My behavior was different in the office, my behavior was different at home.
00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.839
And that was just self-awareness that I I knew that I really wasn't in the right spot and I needed to get my head in the right spot.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.319
And so that's where as a media, you've got to have what did you do to do that?
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.680
I I had some help.
00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:16.640
I went to some people to talk to them to get some guidance on how and and also I realized it was okay.
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:16.960
Yeah.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:19.599
It's so normal.
00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:26.799
In fact, what I think is happening with the next generation, they're looking at that generation and going, I don't want to live like that.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:37.440
I mean, I think there is a real reflection where the younger generation is saying, I want to work hard and I want to get places, but I don't want to arrive at 40 burnt out and broken.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:56.960
Because it's something that I think that particularly men of that generation, your generation, and now it's it's not only, as you say, normal, it's actually completely acceptable to seek help, get guidance, and get support, which is that's I think that that's good for the next gen.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:07.680
In the meantime, there are still lots of people working in the way that you're describing, particularly in our sort of genre.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:16.480
Do you think that the way that everybody was raised through the corporate sector, your description of working the way you did?
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:21.200
I mean, of course, by the burnout was just almost on the table before.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.279
I mean, that's just obvious that's going to happen.
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.839
Because no one's immortal, as you say.
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.160
So, what do you tell people who are stuck in that rut in a way?
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:36.720
So, I I've I've read quite a few books on emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.359
So he's the guru on emotional intelligence.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:48.559
He talks about sort of the self-awareness, he talks about self-control, he talks about social awareness and social skills.
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:55.759
And he categorizes and he says, those are the four pillars of emotional intelligence, which I love.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:12.880
And that first one is just having the ability to see yourself, look in the mirror and see yourself and understand how you're behaving, how you're leading, how you're handling situations, and going, actually, no, this isn't right.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.480
I'm not handling this the right way.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:21.119
Maybe you've got a stakeholder, someone in the office you can, head of HR or something, can tap on your shoulder and say, Hey, Dane, are you okay?
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:25.599
This is the way you're handling situations, is not in the same manner.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.039
Are you doing okay?
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:29.440
And then you go, well, okay, no, I'm not.
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:30.000
What's driving?
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.039
Is it lack of sleep?
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:32.880
Is it stress and anxiety?
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.279
Is it a problem of distraction?
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:38.960
You're having an issue with your partner or your parents or something like that.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:45.200
And so that's where you need the help, which is to actually triangulate down and actually what's causing this problem.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:54.480
And so I'm really a big fan of the concept of this shadow of the leader, which is have the positional power that you have, being very aware of your shadow.
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:59.759
And that's probably one of the leading concepts that I try to teach my mentees.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.200
Which is be very aware of your leadership shadow, your impact, and use it, I'm sure you're using it for good, not evil.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.000
Okay, can you just extrapolate that a little bit?
00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:19.759
I don't it's just so that we understand the shadow is is meant to be reflective of just to clarify, just so I understand.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:21.680
Good question.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:27.359
So if you're on a CEO a CEO, you have massive positional power.
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:27.920
Yeah.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:37.279
So if if Anthony Albanese with Prime Minister was attending a meeting with 300 people, everyone in the room would know where he's sitting.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.359
Everyone would know if he got up and walked away.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:47.839
He has massive positional power given his his role as prime minister.
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:48.960
Exactly.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.319
We all have that.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:52.880
Parents, we know that very well.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.440
Our kids copy us from a very young age.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:10.640
So in the business environment, people are watching the CEO and the senior leaders, and they're taking cues from those leaders, and those leaders are role models, and they can be role models in good ways or bad ways.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:22.079
And so as a leader, you've got to be immensely aware that everything you say and do is multiplied in terms of impact because of your role.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:24.640
That's your leadership shadow.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.440
And the more senior you get, the more powerful that shadow is.
00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:30.480
Yeah.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:30.799
Yeah.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.279
A good example would be in my last role, I was very cautious.
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:37.599
I led 200,000 people across Asia.
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.319
Uh we had 60,000 people in India.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.799
And so I went to India just about every month.
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:49.519
And I would remember, I'd go there and I would say something like, We probably should think about doing this.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:51.119
Have you thought about doing this?
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.440
And then I go back a month later and they say, Hey Dane, we implemented that.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.160
And I went, I didn't tell, yeah, you told us to implement it.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.279
I said, No, no, no, I told you to think about, investigate.
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.799
But what they heard was the boss saying, do this.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:05.680
Yeah.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:12.720
So you've got to be very careful because often as leaders, we we don't necessarily remember everything we say to people.
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.599
They remember everything we say to them.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:16.240
Yeah.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.640
And so you have a lot of, you wield a lot of power.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:37.759
And you have to also that power, as you say, can be used to guide and steer the ship and make sure that people are, I suppose, learn, which is what this whole podcast is about, what they've learned, you know, about how to lead, but also not just the leaders, it's also the people that you are leading, is what you're saying, need to be also mindful of all this.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.400
Like what are they learning while they're watching the leaders?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.559
And so you could apply it on both sides of the coin in a way.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:45.519
You can.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.359
So you're effectively role modeling the behaviors that you want your team to execute.
00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.960
And so another example would be meeting discipline.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:59.519
That a lot of my clients, I work a lot with venture capital and startup firms.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.440
That's probably 80% of my clients.
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:02.319
And I love it.
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.279
These young kids, 25 to 35 years old, with these brilliant ideas.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:09.920
But a lot of them have never seen role model leaders.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.279
They haven't worked in the corporate space, they've never seen good leaders or bad leaders.
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:18.960
So often their only role models are their parents, and they may all may not be good role models.
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.440
And so, you know, I talk to them about creating accountability.
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:26.079
How do you create accountability in the business?
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.039
And a good example is if you don't have meeting discipline, you won't create accountability in your in your company.
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:42.960
If you don't start, if you don't go into meeting with an agenda, start your meeting on time, finish your meeting on time, send out follow-up minutes within four or five hours.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.519
That discipline creates accountability.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.319
Because also what happens, your team copy that and they start having meetings the same way.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:56.640
So that's what I mean by setting a shadow role modeling behaviors that you you want others to execute.
00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:05.119
I think that's so interesting, the meeting concept, because I do, I mean, obviously, meetings have I mean a very critical and pivotal role in business.
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:14.559
And there's not a business that I've worked in or you've worked in where there's not meetings, but sometimes, you know, there's too many meetings, and there's so many meetings that you actually have a meeting to plan a meeting.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:21.039
And there's an element where, particularly in the big corporates I've worked with or that my husband's worked with, there's a sense of that.
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.160
I mean, you talk about that.
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:28.960
I know that that's an example that you were just showing of like how important accountability and all of that is very critical.
00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:43.440
But at the same time, I do think people are doing my observation, particularly in startup world, I'm working with a startup at the moment, is there is a slight tweaking of the way things were done too.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:57.039
And that's not a bad thing, but it has to be done, as you're saying, with the arches or the core tenets of business reapplied, reinvented in a fresh way.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:57.680
Exactly.
00:26:58.079 --> 00:26:59.759
Because they're not going to do it the same way.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:04.720
So I'm sure you get pushback from some of the startups in terms of those.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:05.519
Absolutely.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.920
Yeah, because I think that's important too.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:09.680
So we're talking about evolution.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:11.440
Tell me about you personally.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.680
You, you know, obviously you're a diver, a big diver from what I've read.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:22.079
And that requires that's almost the antithesis of or is it, you tell me.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:29.920
That's your, you know, to deep dive into the ocean 500 times all the time is like really quite, yeah.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:31.680
So so what's that about?
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.200
Well, firstly, an element of it would be being present, be here now.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.000
So again, I encourage leaders to think that way.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:43.680
Be present, be you know focused on someone.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.200
It's a career day for them.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.240
If you're the CEO, so be focused and be present.
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:49.440
Be here now.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.440
So the diving piece is very much like that.
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:56.960
When you're in the water, you know, you're very focused on what's around you and just enjoying the experience.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:02.240
You're not thinking about anything else when you're you know 150 feet, 100 feet under the surface.
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.400
So being very present.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.559
Um, also it's my I found it's my place of zen.
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:14.400
I, you know, my heart rate drops, I my breathing, I barely breathe.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.359
And so I just you know I'm in a wonderful, calm, neutral space.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.440
So I find it very energizing.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:27.680
So I go on these liverboard dive trips where you do you know three, four, five dives a day, and it's just wonderful.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.960
So you're underwater for you know about six hours each day.
00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:32.720
It's just uh wonderful, wonderful.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:43.119
And you know, I know there are there's smarter technology, you know, like LOLMs and flying to the moon and things like that, but I think breathing underwater is up there for me.
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:56.160
Well, clearly, but I think everyone seeks, particularly if you're in an extreme work environment where you're constantly on tap, listening, hearing, engaging, flipping, you know, it's like very intense.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:04.160
To find peace is the challenge from what I hear from a lot of business people, finding your peace.
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:13.839
And it's and it's not just a yoga class, which works for some people, but it seems it needs to be a deep dive, literally, for someone like you.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:19.839
And that doesn't surprise me because it's sort of the antithesis of the noise of business.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:28.400
But it also, I suppose, requires the bravery and the adventurous explorative, you know, personality.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.880
Because for some people, that is not a place of peace.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:35.119
It's actually terrifying to go, you know, deep dive and go below the surface.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:37.519
So as you say, everyone finds their beat.
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:44.640
But do you think were there skills that you think that you have in business that you apply when you go diving?
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.480
Or vice versa, I should say.
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.839
Yeah, that yeah.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:55.119
So um, you know, when you're planning the dive and going on the dive, you you do need to be very aware of safety aspects.
00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:02.400
So a lot of the companies I've worked in, safety was very critical because we had industrial workers, frontline workers, et cetera.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.160
So, you know, same thing when you're diving.
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:05.599
Okay, is my tank full?
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:11.920
All the checks you go through, if something goes wrong, being calm and handling the situation.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.200
So, a good example.
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:17.920
My youngest daughter came diving with me, Komodo, about uh three years ago.
00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:21.519
And it was a night dive, so it was about 8:30 at night.
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:22.319
It was pitch black.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:29.359
We were about close to 100 feet under the water, swimming on, couldn't see it, barely see anything, had some torches going.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.279
And she looks at me and starts going like that.
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.960
It's when she had no air.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:38.720
And she's probably only dive done 20 dives in her life, and she's going, I have no air.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.960
But she stayed calm and we got the dive mass, and we then did buddy breathing and got her out safely.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:54.400
But that's a good example of just saying there was a crisis, just handle it, and you know the you know what you should do, just execute that.
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:55.680
And it was fine.
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:56.400
It worked out.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:13.279
But well, I'm glad it did, and and that's a very, I suppose, a very important lesson, and a very, as we know, we're just saying this terrible accident yesterday, which we won't reflect on, and the male dives of divers, which was that they still think something went very, very wrong there, which is to be uncovered.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:14.640
It's a terrible story.
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:23.680
But there's lots of people, as you say, that dive, and you know, adventure is also very much part of a skill set, I think, to equip one's humanity.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:32.640
You know, your the humanity sometimes I think business, in my observation, can repress in order to do the discipline that you're talking about.
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.559
You sort of have to repress some very natural urges.
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.599
For example, you've got to sit in an office, right?
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:42.799
Generally all day and have no sunlight.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.680
And I just go, I don't get that.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:57.519
I'm don't, that's not my work because I a journalist, I'm out and about and I'm but the corporate world, when I have worked in it and what I observe is incredibly repressive by its nature.
00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:11.440
The expectation that you will sit in that chair at that computer, going in and out of meetings, or going to, you know, you might move to the board table and then you're back doing your tap-tap, then you're back on the board table for a meeting.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:16.079
There's something really unnatural to me about that on one level.
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:22.480
And so the need to therefore have the capacity to be adventurous and go out into the world.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:28.000
For you, it's a deep dive, is surely that's the yin and the yang, isn't it?
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:28.960
Yeah, it is.
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:36.559
It's but it's going back to your your challenge about you know going from board meeting to another meeting and bouncing around.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:51.279
It also depends on how you mentally frame that, which uh I always loved, I'd love that the mental nimble nimbleness required to go from one issue to another issue to working with someone.
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.759
Yeah, the dynamic nature, continuing to learn, supporting people on their journey.
00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:01.359
I love, I love that, you know, and yeah, you you don't need senior leaders if everything goes well all the time.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:02.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:04.000
So I I I love that.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:13.359
But then I also worked out that you also need the flip side, yeah, which is the the moments of quiet and uh peace to reset.
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.839
And if you don't, you get that stress just again accumulates, etc.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:19.599
So just find your thing.
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.799
So I took up playing the guitar five years ago, so now I'm doing that.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:31.200
And I there's a guitar group I played with on a Thursday night as well, and so just continue to do different things, continue to reinvent yourself.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:36.160
So I I talk about in my book being a relentless student.
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:44.240
So a bit different to avid learner, but a relentless student, and that's about continuing to reinvent yourself.
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:55.359
So I've been able to reinvent myself six times as a CEO, six different industries, and I've reinvented myself as a coach and mentor, and I suppose lately I've now reinvented myself as an author.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:58.400
And that's what keeps you young, mentally young anyway.
00:33:58.720 --> 00:33:59.039
100%.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:07.440
And it's also their evolution is critical, you know, they say, and then just in in the scheme of things, you know, you clearly fill your cut on many fronts.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:24.800
How hard is that for you with relationships because personal relationships, because you're, you know, working flat chat on the deliverables, and then you have to move to the recovery or the respite and find a way to navigate that and then find the space.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:34.400
I mean, you're probably a better partner because you do do those things, because in some ways that allows you to evolve, but it means there's only so many hours in a day.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:40.400
So I've um moved country 11 times, I've moved house 29 times.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.039
That's incredible.
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.480
Uh but I've had the same, I've had the same wife for 38 years.
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.159
Well, well done you.
00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:47.440
That's a good effort.
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:48.800
And well done her too.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:50.000
Yeah, well done.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:55.440
More to her than and she's done an amazing job almost as a single parent because I've always traveled.
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:59.679
So but in the book, I I talk about making your partner your partner.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.679
And that's really critical.
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.679
I would be nowhere near, nowhere near the career I had if it wasn't for my wife Melinda.
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:12.079
And so I actually dedicate the book to her and because she supported me.
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.840
She allowed me to, I suppose, reach my goals and targets.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:26.400
And, you know, that was tough for her because she probably could have been a CEO in her own right, but she gave up a career to actually support me and gallivant around the world.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:31.280
And she loved that journey, but she made some personal sacrifices to do that.
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:37.679
But she was a wonderful is, a great partner for me, and has helped guide me in so many ways.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.760
And so I've got a chapter on creating a support network and a critical element.
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.480
The first element of that is make your partner your partner.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:53.199
Your partner will hopefully outlive the and the relationship will hopefully outlive the length of time you're in a company.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:53.920
That's right.
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.679
So be careful about sacrificing your company for a startup.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:00.000
That's right, your partner for a startup.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.079
I was about to say, yeah, that's right.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.000
Your partner hopefully will relationship will outlive the time you spent in the company.
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:09.840
That's absolutely true.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.559
Yeah.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.679
I talk about a partner, a mentor, uh a support network or friends.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:23.039
So you think about tennis players, you know, Djokovic or old uh Carlos Sinner, uh Carlos Carlos Arkaran, sorry.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:23.280
Yeah.
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:29.039
And when they came to Australia for the Australian Open, they had teams of 10 people looking after them.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:37.599
Now, as a CEO, you don't need that many, but you need a partner, you need maybe someone to help you for exercise, the nutrition, and you need a coach or a mentor.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:44.320
So surround your people, yourself with people that are going to support you on the journey and not bring you down.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:46.639
But be cheerleaders.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:47.840
Be cheerleaders.
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:50.800
And you know, you do reflect on your wife.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:57.119
And I think that is important because I think she obviously got the privilege of enjoying your journey with you.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:02.159
And obviously, I'm assuming she had her own journey, whatever that was, or however she evolved.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:09.440
But obviously, and you've got kids, three kids, and and that's in itself a massive achievement and project.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:10.559
I have the same.
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:19.119
So I think the question is, you know, somebody who said somebody said when you've got a partnership, you know, somebody will be 80%, the other will be 20%.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:21.440
You're never 50-50 all the time, right?
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.400
It's sort of that.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:37.760
It involves have you found a moment in time where your trajectory has been changed to accommodate hers, or is it been predominantly you've been the the sort of the captain, which is which is completely common and normal.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.679
There's no judgment in that question.
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.960
Yeah, I better answer this truthfully because she listened to it.
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.840
Um so she would go volume.
00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:50.719
She would say that Dane is very good with this me time and looking after me.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.440
She said, I'm very good at cocooning myself.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:55.039
So I've done that my whole life.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:38:01.440
So an example would be if I'm flying from I was just returned from 10 years in Singapore.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.320
But I and I was traveling internationally every month.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:14.719
And so, you know, I learned how to be able to work overnight or do an overnight flight and get up the next morning on the plane and go straight to the office and be effective.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:20.079
So I I created approaches that meant I could always be effective when I landed.
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.599
And so that was just me cocooning myself.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:29.119
And I've that sort of extended to my life that I've always had tough jobs and I do look after me.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:30.880
So that's being honest.
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:39.039
Um I probably haven't sacrificed enough for Melinda, but we've got a wonderful relationship, and where I can, particularly now, I'm trying to do more and more.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:46.800
And she's very very, she's been very understanding of my role and going, look, I know that's you can't always be there.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.480
So one of the things we we agreed early was not negotiables.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.039
So what was really critical for her that were not negotiables?
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.239
And that's one of the things I'd encourage with my clients as well.
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.800
Just as partners, you know, work out what's negotiable and what's non-negotiable.
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:11.920
Your partner might need two hours off on a Saturday morning to go to Pilates and get his or her exercise.
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.679
So that would be one example.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:17.920
Another one would be kids, school, parent-teacher things.
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.119
That's a not negotiable.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.519
Events are not negotiable.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:28.400
Date nights, that's one of the things we did quite a lot, which we're a Friday night every two weeks or so, a date night.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.639
And on those date nights, we would have vetoed topics.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.280
It's so easy as a couple to talk about the kids or your parents and work.
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:42.960
So we go out and go, we can't talk about kids tonight, we can't talk about work tonight, and we can't talk about our parents.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:48.559
So what that means is you actually talk about the same sort of topics that you did when you actually started dating together.
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:49.119
Yeah.
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:49.679
Yeah.
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:51.280
That's really interesting.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:40:05.599
And I like the fact that your mentorship is a full circle, that it doesn't just focus, which is important, on the business discipline, but it focuses on the whole, the holistic approach because I think that's what everyone needs.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:10.480
And I think that's certainly the future and all the startups and all of the new businesses I'm seeing.
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:11.760
That's the approach.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:13.280
So thank you so much.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.920
We really appreciate your words of wisdom.
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.079
Thank you so much, Jane, for joining us.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:23.199
Me too.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.960
Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've learned podcast.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:39.599
I hope you enjoy that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned as Cross Mountains climbed.
00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:46.079
We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:52.400
So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the One Up Learn Podcast.
