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Hello and welcome to finally another episode of Warm Take Wednesdays.
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I know you've had to wait a little bit.
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I am so sorry if you've been enjoying the previous episodes.
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And one of things I'm going to do is go live pretty much every Wednesday unless I'm not available due to...
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circumstances and unpack a topic.
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And today I thought that I would like to talk about all the different binaries that are in the documentary Inside the Manosphere.
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And if you haven't seen the documentary, this is one of Louis Theroux's documentary um on Netflix and really looks at kind of this reality of the Manosphere and some of the influencers.
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on social media that are kind of considered to be inside the manosphere.
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And there's been a lot already written about inside the manosphere.
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It's kind of all over social media.
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There's articles, there's critiques.
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But when I decided to watch it, because I am a gender scholar after all, um and I was fascinated to see what kind of the roots take would be.
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And I'm not going to go into the critiques of the documentary per se because I'm not an art critic and I have to admit I'll be completely transparent and honest that Theroux's documentaries are usually not my cup of tea.
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But given the topic, I really kind of wanted to watch.
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And one of the things I've noticed in the documentary is that there are a lot of binaries that are kind of built in.
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And by the way, hi, if you have not come across my channel before, I'm Dr.
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Alex Iantaffi I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, as well as a certified sex therapist and clinical supervisor.
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I'm also an author.
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I've got seven books already out, published by Jessica Kingsley.
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I have a couple more books on the way.
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from different publishers that come out next year.
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And I'm also a gender scholar, a researcher, and uh actually WPATH certified gender specialist as well.
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Anyway, so now that we're done with those introductions, and I use they, them, or he in pronouns in English, by the way, let's go back to the topic of Inside the Manosphere.
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So one of the things that I really notice is how many uh binaries there were inside this documentary.
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And so let me tell you what I mean by this.
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First of all, there is this contrast between the male influencers that Theroux is kind of following and interviewing and Theroux himself.
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And in a way this feels like this dichotomizing, this kind of binary representation of the kind of a masculinity that prizes, you know, physical prowess and financial success and kind of status symbols like the kind of car that you drive, how much money you have, the kind of place that you live in.
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So kind of an ostentatious kind of alpha male, let's call it in air quotes, type of masculinity that kind of those influencers represent and a softer kind of masculinity that Theroux represents.
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And in a way, I think that this is a false binary because in some ways it's kind of giving boys and men only two options, right?
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You can be this kind of man, this kind of alpha male man who kind of sees his value uh through hard work, financial success, getting a lot of women, doing what you want, say what you want, you know, not follow kind of societal scripts or any of that.
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And on the other hand, you have this kind of softer, intellectual, kind of curious masculinity that Theroux represents.
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And in a way that is limiting too, because, you know, where are the possibilities of different types of masculinities or different types of men?
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I thought it was really interesting that at no point was this unpacked.
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At no point, for example, I don't think, and if I've missed it, please let me know, because I've only watched it once.
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I was going to watch it again before doing this episode, and I have to admit that I just could not stomach to subject myself to watching the documentary again.
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So I will own it.
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So if I miss it, let me know, please.
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But as far as I could see, at no point through, for example, ask kind of more reflective questions like we are two different types of men.
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What is that like for you to notice that?
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you not have the same respect for me if I cannot lift as much weight as you can at the gym or if I am more interested in monogamy versus this type of one way non-monogamy that some of the influencers seem to embrace, right?
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Because more than one of them.
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I'm sad about wanting to have more than one uh relationship with women.
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And there were different examples of that as well.
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And so in a way, there's this contrast that it's already there from the beginning, but never really gets fully examined.
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There are never those moments of like, hey, let's really start slow down and think about what does masculinity mean?
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are their drawbacks to this kind of masculinity.
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And there are really some heartbreaking moments as well in the documentary.
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I think for me, when it comes to men, some of the heartbreaking moments were some of the young men who really idolize those influencers, and two of them are being interviewed, and one of them has uh lost a brother.
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to his brother completed suicide and alive himself by completing suicide.
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And this young man talk about not believing in depression, you know, and just like having to work hard for what you want and like not, you know, not give in to kind of your emotions in this way.
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And there is no examination of potentially the grief that might be there or this contrast between not believing in depression ah and yet having this very real experience of having lost his brother to suicide.
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And I think that that is a real theme that carries all the way through the documentary.
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You know, I was really hoping that maybe there would be multiple.
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It's just a one and done.
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I think this topic could have really benefited maybe from being a little bit more of a series where there could be kind of deeper conversation.
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And of course, was some suspicion from this man towards Theroux because they were scared that they would be misrepresented or that they would be ridiculed.
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And of course, as humans do, um one of the things that they, some of them do instead is kind of ridiculing Theroux, again, reinforcing this.
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um you know, it's either this type of man or this type of man.
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And we are going to be in competition with each other rather than being able to examine masculinity together.
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And now I'm not saying that those men would have necessarily have been willing, but it really feels like in a way they're afraid that Theroux is looking for a gotcha moment.
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And at the same time, they are also extracting from this uh documentary process by turning everything into content, you know?
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And so there are a lot of dynamics there that could have been examined in more depth.
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There is really no cultural reflection, there's no gender scholars who are brought in, for example, to reflect on some of those dynamics.
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Another heartbreaking em moment, I think, for me in the documentary is one of the influencers kind of set up.
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what they consider a prank, but it really goes pretty poorly.
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And the other men or with them beat up a member of the public.
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It is not shown in the documentary.
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uh But the influencer is clearly uncomfortable that this has happened.
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But once again, there isn't really space to examine that, to have reflection.
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And in that way, it feels that there was kind of a sensationalizing of the manosphere rather than asking ourselves, what is it in our culture, in this social, cultural, historical, political moment that is uh making this kind of masculinity appealing for a lot of young men.
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And we know that it is making this kind of masculinity appealing because, for example, younger men are actually more conservative now than older men in their values.
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And I think there's a reason for this.
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And so I think there's really a huge missed opportunity for reflection when it comes to what is the social, political, cultural, historical environment that is making this kind of alpha male, let's call it, air quote, mentality appealing, right?
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And instead there is the sensationalizing, showing some of the dissonance, but without ever commenting on it.
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which is very much through style and that's okay.
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And like I said, his style of documentary is not my preferred style of documentary, but I really thought there was a missed opportunity.
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And there was another missed opportunity in the kind of contrasting of like, obviously the very obvious binary was men versus women, right?
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uh You know, and there are some very interesting ideas that some of the men talk about, like this idea that women are born with inherent value and their value is basically, they don't call it this, this is what I would call it as a gender scholar, that uh women are born with inherent erotic capital.
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So how attractive they are, how much people wanna have sex with them, and that this erotic capital is something that they can exchange for opportunities, whereas men don't have this capital that they're born with.
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And that's, first of all, that's also heartbreaking.
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What have we done as a society to have some of these young men feel that they have no inherent worth?
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Because really what they're talking about is that they don't feel that they have any inherent worth and that women have this inherent worth that comes from erotic capital.
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And what's complicated is that in some ways, in dominant culture, they are not inherently wrong under kind of white Christian nationalism, for example, which probably several of those young men embrace.
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um And in kind of cis-heteromononormative patriarchal world, it is true that women often exchange erotic capital for opportunities.
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And we even see it in the documentary Inside the Manosphere with some of the kind of the young women kind of leveraging the platform that some of this men have, even though they obviously don't have any respect for this man, which makes complete sense because those men obviously don't have respect for them either.
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And so there is a, It's very transactional relationship.
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And in a way, under cis-heteromononormative kind of patriarchal culture, the relationship between men and women is very transactional.
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And so even though those men are viewed in some way as extremist or exceptional, I would actually say that they are a reflection of the cis-heteromononormative kind of Christian supremacist patriarchal values.
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they're not an exception.
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They might be a little bit more extreme, but they are a product um of this culture, right?
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And so the transactional relationship that is depicted between men and women is very much a reflection of what...
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the culture of Cicero mononormative patriarchy tells us, right?
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In a lot of ways.
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And so that kind of binary, that contrast, again, is not really unpacked.
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There are some moment where, for example, with one of the men that's being interviewed, know, Theroux asks question when uh the partner is present, the partner is a woman, they're not, you know, married and it's, the man has made it very clear.
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that at some point he would like to have multiple female partners and that this is something that maybe she's not really on board with.
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And Theroux tries to ask some questions about this, but rather than doing it in a way that feels, you know, in a way that feels consensual, in a way that feels negotiated, like, hey, can we have a conversation all together about this?
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This might have been challenging as well because many of those men were really trying to gatekeep access to how much Theroux talked to some of the women.
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But again, it feels like uh the women inside the manosphere are used almost as an object to make a point, which in a way also reproduces kind of patriarchal ideas of femininity.
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And so I'm not sure that this contrast that the documentary starts to make at the beginning between this is the type of man inside the manosphere and this is the type of man that Theroux is, right, a more intellectual, curious man.
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But both of them in some ways seem to be using women as a prop.
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There really, you know, there are in-depth interviews with the women.
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And again, it might be that Theroux tried, but he only tried to have those conversations with women who had very close proximity to the many interviewed, rather than, for example, seeking out women who...
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would have had more freedom to talk with them, you know, and the only woman who really gets a little bit more airtime, I think it's one of the partners of one of the men being interviewed.
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uh And they have a whole family, have children, and initially he doesn't want Theroux to have access to his family, but then he changes his mind.
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And this is one of the women who's actually very supportive.
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And so she gets more airtime.
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But I think there could have been other very interesting conversations, you know, to be had with what is it that, for example, the women who are partnered with those men find attractive about those men?
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What is it about those relationships?
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that serve them?
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And what is it about this lack of equality in some way in relationship that is attractive to them?
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And how that is also a product in some way of kind of the very cis-genderist culture that we live in.
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And I want to take a moment to break down what I mean by cis-genderist culture.
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I believe I've already talked about cis-genderism.
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in uh one of the episodes of Warm Tech Wednesdays where I really unpack if there is a real gender ideology, right?
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And I talk about cisgenderism as the ideology where we believe that folks whose gender identity is aligned with their gender assigned at birth is kind of the natural, in air quote, of being for humans, right?
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So the idea that if you're born with vulva, you're supposed to identify as a woman and that there are certain expectations and characteristics that come with that.
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if you're born with a penis, you're expected to identify and be a man.
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And that there are certain expectations and characteristics that come with that.
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Now there can be a little bit of room in each of those boxes, but they're definitely separate and distinct boxes, right?
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And so cisgenderism is the ideology that says that this is the natural way of being, right?
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And cisgenderism is just one manifestation, really.
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of biological determinism.
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The idea that the characteristics that we are, you know, the physical characteristics that we are born with dictate the kind of person that we are.
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So, for example, the idea that women are naturally nurturing and caring and that men are naturally, again, air quote, you know, the providers.
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Those are very kind of uh ideas that uh are biologically determined, right?
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Like if you're born with the sect of biological characteristics, you're going to have this psychological, social, emotional characteristics.
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There's a lot more to say about that.
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I've done a whole episode about that.
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think it's episode two or three.
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I don't know.
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You'll have to check it out on the channel.
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But again, this idea is never really fully brought out in the documentary.
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And I think that that is such a missed opportunity.
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At one point there is mentioned in passing of gender ideology, and it's actually from one of the men being interviewed.
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And they're talking about gender ideology in terms of trans people.
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And that could have been such an opportunity for Theroux to say, but what about the gender ideology of Inside the Manosphere?
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You also have a gender ideology.
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You think that men are supposed to act and be a certain way to be real men, in air quote, and that women kind of uh have to act in certain ways or are a certain way because of who they are, right?
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That is also a gender ideology.
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Again, there is this real uh missed opportunity to go deeper and for reflection.
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And this is something that I'm seeing a lot when it comes to the discourse around the differences between men and women.
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Sometimes the patriarchy might get mentioned, but it never goes beyond actually questioning the foundations of sisterhood.
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And this is really what we're talking about is the foundations.
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When the foundations um are rooted in cisgenderism, it is not a surprise then that men and women feel that there are certain way that they are supposed to be to fit into society, right?
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And at this moment where we're facing the global rise of fascism and lot of uncertainty, I think a lot of people are grasping for what can give us a level of security, of safety and uncertainty.
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And people love to talk about the loneliness epidemic that some men are experiencing or even the manosphere.
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And yet, why is it that we can never connect the dots?
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We either talk about trans people separately from the way we talk about men and women.
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I'm even seeing a lot of discourse around how the matriarchy is gonna save us.
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And I actually don't think the matriarchy is gonna save us, but I'm not gonna go into that right now.
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I have an old article that I'm writing for Substack on that very topic.
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And the reason why I don't think the short version, I will give you the short reason of why I don't think the matriarchy is going to save us, is that we're still reinforcing this binary, this idea that there are men and women and only men and women in terms of gender expansiveness, gender diversity in our humanity.
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And as long as we keep perpetuating this idea, that uh men have certain inherent characteristics and women have certain inherent characteristics, we're still promoting biological determinism.
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So people who are saying the matriarchy is going to save us because women are naturally more caring and cooperative, ultimately are still perpetuating the same ideas through a different package that the folks inside the manosphere are also talking about.
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And it might seem weird to say that women who are talking about the matriarchy and the divine feminine and the power of the womb are perpetuating the same ideas that those male influencers of Inside the Manosphere who are all about being an alpha male, they seem very opposite, but in reality, they're two sides of the same coin.
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And that is my main criticism of Inside the Manosphere.
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At no point does it show how this is two sides.
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of the same coin, right?
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These ideas are never really fully explored and fully challenged.
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And by not fully exploring and not fully challenging this, We keep perpetuating this separation, this dichotomy, and in a way the pain that uh those men, especially the young men who are following some of these influencers, are starting to, are trying to really manage, right?
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At one point, it's very clear that what some of those young men are talking about is the impact of late stage capitalism.
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and how hard it is to survive under late-stage capitalism.
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But of course, that is not how they talk about it.
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The way that they have been conditioned to think about this is that women are taking opportunities away from them, right?
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Or for white people, the folks of the global majority are taking opportunities away from them.
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Or that trans people are really the folks who we need to be afraid of.
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And really, by trans people, often, unfortunately, people mean trans women because misogyny and transmisogyny particular is well and alive.
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And so I really question in many ways how useful it is to have a documentary like Inside the Manosphere beyond the controversy and the sensationalizing.
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And I also question whether Theroux himself and some of those men aren't two sides of the same coin because much as Theroux talks about how for many of these male influencers, right, everything is content, but in a way he's also treating all of this as content and a content that's been very popular, right?
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It's all over social media.
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It's all over different kind of online uh magazines in terms of like critiques or support for the documentary.
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And again, I question how different are really those two different, those types of masculinity and why is it that one is seen as acceptable?
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Obviously, Theroux is seen as a more acceptable type of liberal, inner quote, masculinity versus the conservative type of masculinity that those influencers are embodying.
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But in reality, aren't they both serving the same cultural parameters and aren't they both chasing likes in different ways, right?
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uh On social media those young men might be chasing likes but you know Theroux as a documentarian is chasing viewers and Netflix as the producer of the documentary is chasing money and yet These of similarities are never explored because if we start questioning the foundation, then the whole system starts to crack.
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If we start saying that, hang on a minute, actually, our...
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you know, the influencers were kind of chasing likes through portraying this idea of more money, more women, more cars, more houses, right?
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More wealth, more prestige, more popularity, more likes.
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And Theroux are they different kind of masculinity?
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Are the women who are, you know, talking about the need for a matriarchy to push back against the patriarchy really different?
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um Or are all of those people still perpetuating a system that is not going to crack anytime soon because we always stop short?
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And I think that that is my main criticism, not only of this documentary, but generally how we talk about men and women, especially in the context of dominant culture.
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We stop short of really questioning this idea of biological determinism.
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And so as long as we believe that women are naturally more caring, more cooperative, more monogamous even, um you know, and that men are the ones are more interested in power and power over rather than power with in all these different ways, how are we truly challenging biological determinism?
00:26:43.202 --> 00:26:44.722
I don't think we are.
00:26:47.346 --> 00:26:49.698
And honestly, those are just some initial thoughts.
00:26:49.698 --> 00:26:54.700
And I always welcome kind of comments, pushback questions.
00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:57.121
And I really want to think about this more.
00:26:57.121 --> 00:27:06.784
I might make myself watch the documentary again and put those thoughts in writing in a more kind of uh consistent way.
00:27:06.884 --> 00:27:17.871
Because one of the things that I like to do m in this kind of YouTube series, as well as in my podcast, Gender Stories, is really to have a conversation.
00:27:17.871 --> 00:27:30.933
It's really hard to have a conversation by myself, but hopefully it feels like I'm having a conversation with you, the viewers, and if you're listening to this on a different type of podcast platform with you, the listeners.
00:27:30.933 --> 00:27:34.575
And so I truly do want to know what you're thinking.
00:27:34.935 --> 00:27:45.058
And ultimately, the last kind of couple of things that I want to say is that I wonder, what would happen if we could stay a little more curious.
00:27:45.058 --> 00:27:56.324
I wonder what kind of documentary we could have had if we had approached this uh man with more compassion and curiosity and kindness.
00:27:56.324 --> 00:27:58.765
And believe me, I get it.
00:27:58.765 --> 00:28:10.670
It is hard to approach some of those men with curiosity and compassion and kindness because they're saying incredibly harmful things, incredibly misogynistic things.
00:28:10.829 --> 00:28:26.329
uh There is a good dose of antisemitism at one point in the documentary, so if you haven't watched it, also be aware of that, that there is some significant antisemitism because of who the root is.
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:45.567
And so I'm not saying that it would have been easy, but I think that in a way, isn't that the responsibility of somebody who's making a documentary to approach the subject of the documentary with curiosity and to try and understand their point of view.
00:28:45.567 --> 00:29:00.434
And so I would have been much more interested in going deep and understanding how are we creating the condition for this male influencers to have the million of followers that they have.
00:29:00.615 --> 00:29:20.364
And I think some of the, as a gender scholar, a few ways in which we're creating the conditions for this young man to rise to um having the size of following and the level of influence that they have on young men is by, you know.
00:29:20.736 --> 00:29:26.838
perpetuating capitalism, the idea that our worth comes from money and capital.
00:29:26.838 --> 00:29:35.823
And so of course, everybody wants more money and capital, because if that's where our worth comes from, that's what we need to try and get, right?
00:29:35.823 --> 00:29:48.769
And also how we're all struggling as prices are rising, as we're facing a climate crisis globally, you know, as well as the global rise of fascism.
00:29:48.969 --> 00:29:53.105
We're all struggling to like pay the rent, pay the mortgage, pay the bills.
00:29:53.105 --> 00:30:05.634
And so of course it's attractive if you have somebody who's telling you, have the secret for you to not work so hard and make a lot of money and have exactly the kind of lifestyle you want to have.
00:30:05.674 --> 00:30:07.355
How could that not be popular?
00:30:07.355 --> 00:30:20.526
I mean, even on this platform of YouTube, have a look around of how popular the platforms are telling you how to grow, you know, you're following from, you know, zero to a hundred thousand.
00:30:20.526 --> 00:30:26.645
overnight, how to monetize everything, how to find more sources of income, right?
00:30:26.645 --> 00:30:30.685
There's a reason why all that content is so popular.
00:30:30.786 --> 00:30:32.286
We are suffering.
00:30:32.286 --> 00:30:35.026
We are suffering under late-stage capitalism.
00:30:35.026 --> 00:30:41.306
We can't afford to pay our bills and we're working harder than ever in a lot of different places.
00:30:41.306 --> 00:30:45.066
And so of course people are going to be drawn to that kind of content.
00:30:45.066 --> 00:31:00.366
And also When we live in a culture that is so uh lacking in kind of um curiosity and compassion and connection.
00:31:00.650 --> 00:31:04.511
That's often what people are looking for when they're following this man.
00:31:04.511 --> 00:31:10.104
They're looking for those parasocial relationships where they feel seen and valued.
00:31:10.104 --> 00:31:16.788
And so what is it that we're doing that is making young men not feeling seen or valued?
00:31:16.788 --> 00:31:22.509
And believe me, I think it is important that we keep talking about toxic masculinity.
00:31:22.509 --> 00:31:29.433
Toxic masculinity is a thing, but masculinity in itself is not evil.
00:31:29.433 --> 00:31:37.278
And that is part of the issue that people are taking those systemic issues and reducing them to individual issues.
00:31:37.278 --> 00:31:46.224
And even this documentary in a way is taking this really important topic of why does the manosphere even exist?
00:31:46.224 --> 00:31:47.786
Why does it exist?
00:31:47.786 --> 00:31:49.207
Who does it serve?
00:31:49.207 --> 00:31:57.832
Who benefits from some of the values that are being promoted in the manosphere and who's financing the manosphere?
00:31:57.832 --> 00:32:00.446
These are the questions that are wanted.
00:32:00.446 --> 00:32:04.227
to see tackled in the documentary.
00:32:04.227 --> 00:32:05.426
Who's benefiting?
00:32:05.426 --> 00:32:07.807
Who's paying the bills of those dudes?
00:32:07.807 --> 00:32:11.227
And why are they being promoted, right?
00:32:12.846 --> 00:32:17.307
There is money behind those folks.
00:32:18.226 --> 00:32:25.940
Some of these young men are being extracted from, exploited, uh and they're exploiting others, right?
00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:30.761
I'm not denying that some of their behaviors are abhorrent.
00:32:30.761 --> 00:32:36.444
They're violent, they're misogynistic, antisemitic, all the things they have already said, they're transphobic, right?
00:32:36.444 --> 00:32:48.351
There's definitely a passing comment uh around transphobia and kind of, uh you know, the idea that gender ideology is really about trans people.
00:32:48.351 --> 00:32:54.479
whereas as you know I would say that the gender ideology in dominant culture is cisgenderism.
00:32:56.107 --> 00:33:01.048
Those were the questions that I wanted to see tackled because those are systemic questions.
00:33:01.048 --> 00:33:05.407
And instead, the documentary again, individualizes everything.
00:33:05.407 --> 00:33:20.528
And as long as we individualize those issues and we see those as extremists and as separate from us, I don't think that we can achieve meaningful meaningful change together collectively.
00:33:20.528 --> 00:33:21.508
Right.
00:33:21.508 --> 00:33:22.948
And so.
00:33:23.730 --> 00:33:43.426
Dear watchers on YouTube or listeners, if you're listening, those are the kind of questions that I encourage you to ask yourself, whether you've already watched the documentary or whether you decide to watch the documentary after em seeing this episode or listening to this episode.
00:33:43.426 --> 00:33:46.268
I really want you to ask yourself some questions.
00:33:47.101 --> 00:33:55.267
What is the system that is making those men so appealing, not just to men, but also to women?
00:33:55.827 --> 00:34:08.679
What is the system that benefits from this kind of discourse, whether the discourse is from the Manosphere or from a documentary like Inside the Manosphere?
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.259
Who benefits?
00:34:10.981 --> 00:34:12.942
Where is the money?
00:34:12.942 --> 00:34:15.184
Always ask yourself, where is the money?
00:34:15.436 --> 00:34:17.155
Who's making the money?
00:34:17.295 --> 00:34:18.135
Where is the money?
00:34:18.135 --> 00:34:19.215
Who's benefiting?
00:34:19.215 --> 00:34:19.735
Right?
00:34:19.735 --> 00:34:22.675
The producers is Netflix.
00:34:22.936 --> 00:34:30.195
They are not really invested in challenging, you know, biological determinism.
00:34:30.255 --> 00:34:38.916
I would hope that Theroux as a documentarian might have been a little bit more invested in going deeper, but that's not the choice he made.
00:34:38.916 --> 00:34:40.376
And that's okay.
00:34:40.675 --> 00:34:41.936
He's a creator.
00:34:41.936 --> 00:34:48.478
He gets to create in the way that, um, He wants to and that best suits him.
00:34:48.478 --> 00:35:04.550
But as long as we take this big systemic issues and reduce them to this individual phenomena, I think that we're going to keep living in the same type of culture and society that we're already living in.
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:08.452
Because we're reproducing the same kind of binaries.
00:35:08.914 --> 00:35:10.353
Man and women.
00:35:10.414 --> 00:35:12.487
Bad man, good man.
00:35:12.487 --> 00:35:22.990
misogynistic man, non-misogynistic man, feminist man, non-feminist man, know, toxic man, non-toxic man.
00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:33.914
And I don't want us to be able to just distinguish between good man, bad man, toxic man, non-toxic man, misogynistic man, non-misogynistic man.
00:35:33.914 --> 00:35:39.596
I want us to question the whole thing at the root.
00:35:39.692 --> 00:35:51.952
I really want us to ask what would it take for masculinity to be expansive.
00:35:52.052 --> 00:35:55.414
And what would it take for femininity to be expansive?
00:35:55.414 --> 00:36:05.929
And what would it take for people who don't fit into masculinity or femininity, who want to mix it up or want to divest from this binary altogether?
00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:12.063
As long as we don't question those binaries, we're just reproducing new binaries.
00:36:12.063 --> 00:36:18.606
And so, sure, you know, we might be better able to distinguish the good man from the bad man.
00:36:20.112 --> 00:36:23.465
And at the end of the day, as the system changed.
00:36:23.465 --> 00:36:24.476
Not really.
00:36:24.476 --> 00:36:27.336
And what I'm interested in is system change.
00:36:27.336 --> 00:36:31.358
I hope you're interested in that too, if you're watching or listening.
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.019
So for now, I'm going to stop rambling.
00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:36.431
Please let me know what you think about this new format.
00:36:36.431 --> 00:36:37.961
I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:36:37.961 --> 00:36:47.865
It's really nerve wracking to go live rather than to record the episode, really think it through, edit it and give you the most polished version of myself.
00:36:47.865 --> 00:36:51.907
But I hope that this live format also gives you something.
00:36:51.907 --> 00:37:04.467
What it gives me is the opportunity to bypass all my anxiety and just do the thing and put it out there and see what you how it lands and what you think about it.
00:37:04.467 --> 00:37:12.704
And I would love to hear whether you like this format or if you want me to go back to a more polished, pre-recorded format.
00:37:12.704 --> 00:37:17.431
And I hope that maybe you'll tune in live next time.
00:37:17.431 --> 00:37:21.753
I would love to see some of you tuning in live, asking questions.
00:37:21.753 --> 00:37:28.297
And if there is a topic that you would like me to tackle in a future Warm Tech Wednesdays, please let me know.
00:37:28.862 --> 00:37:32.865
But for now, please take really good and gentle care of yourself.
00:37:32.865 --> 00:37:39.971
Stay curious and ask yourself, is this an individual issue or is this a systemic issue?
00:37:39.971 --> 00:37:46.934
And if it's a systemic issue, are there different questions that maybe we could ask ourselves and each other?
00:37:47.596 --> 00:37:51.199
Take good and gentle care of yourself and one another.
00:00:01.419 --> 00:00:06.291
Hello and welcome to finally another episode of Warm Take Wednesdays.
00:00:06.291 --> 00:00:09.269
I know you've had to wait a little bit.
00:00:09.269 --> 00:00:13.595
I am so sorry if you've been enjoying the previous episodes.
00:00:13.595 --> 00:00:21.138
And one of things I'm going to do is go live pretty much every Wednesday unless I'm not available due to...
00:00:21.568 --> 00:00:24.219
circumstances and unpack a topic.
00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:34.061
And today I thought that I would like to talk about all the different binaries that are in the documentary Inside the Manosphere.
00:00:34.061 --> 00:00:48.159
And if you haven't seen the documentary, this is one of Louis Theroux's documentary um on Netflix and really looks at kind of this reality of the Manosphere and some of the influencers.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:53.673
on social media that are kind of considered to be inside the manosphere.
00:00:53.673 --> 00:00:58.146
And there's been a lot already written about inside the manosphere.
00:00:58.146 --> 00:01:00.226
It's kind of all over social media.
00:01:00.226 --> 00:01:02.298
There's articles, there's critiques.
00:01:02.298 --> 00:01:14.965
But when I decided to watch it, because I am a gender scholar after all, um and I was fascinated to see what kind of the roots take would be.
00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:33.197
And I'm not going to go into the critiques of the documentary per se because I'm not an art critic and I have to admit I'll be completely transparent and honest that Theroux's documentaries are usually not my cup of tea.
00:01:33.197 --> 00:01:36.128
But given the topic, I really kind of wanted to watch.
00:01:36.128 --> 00:01:43.051
And one of the things I've noticed in the documentary is that there are a lot of binaries that are kind of built in.
00:01:43.051 --> 00:01:47.453
And by the way, hi, if you have not come across my channel before, I'm Dr.
00:01:47.453 --> 00:01:55.837
Alex Iantaffi I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, as well as a certified sex therapist and clinical supervisor.
00:01:55.837 --> 00:01:57.278
I'm also an author.
00:01:57.278 --> 00:02:01.198
I've got seven books already out, published by Jessica Kingsley.
00:02:01.198 --> 00:02:03.209
I have a couple more books on the way.
00:02:03.209 --> 00:02:06.802
from different publishers that come out next year.
00:02:06.882 --> 00:02:14.907
And I'm also a gender scholar, a researcher, and uh actually WPATH certified gender specialist as well.
00:02:14.907 --> 00:02:25.875
Anyway, so now that we're done with those introductions, and I use they, them, or he in pronouns in English, by the way, let's go back to the topic of Inside the Manosphere.
00:02:26.336 --> 00:02:33.860
So one of the things that I really notice is how many uh binaries there were inside this documentary.
00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:36.293
And so let me tell you what I mean by this.
00:02:36.293 --> 00:02:46.850
First of all, there is this contrast between the male influencers that Theroux is kind of following and interviewing and Theroux himself.
00:02:46.850 --> 00:03:10.504
And in a way this feels like this dichotomizing, this kind of binary representation of the kind of a masculinity that prizes, you know, physical prowess and financial success and kind of status symbols like the kind of car that you drive, how much money you have, the kind of place that you live in.
00:03:10.504 --> 00:03:27.086
So kind of an ostentatious kind of alpha male, let's call it in air quotes, type of masculinity that kind of those influencers represent and a softer kind of masculinity that Theroux represents.
00:03:27.086 --> 00:03:36.111
And in a way, I think that this is a false binary because in some ways it's kind of giving boys and men only two options, right?
00:03:36.111 --> 00:03:56.943
You can be this kind of man, this kind of alpha male man who kind of sees his value uh through hard work, financial success, getting a lot of women, doing what you want, say what you want, you know, not follow kind of societal scripts or any of that.
00:03:56.943 --> 00:04:06.223
And on the other hand, you have this kind of softer, intellectual, kind of curious masculinity that Theroux represents.
00:04:06.223 --> 00:04:17.023
And in a way that is limiting too, because, you know, where are the possibilities of different types of masculinities or different types of men?
00:04:18.038 --> 00:04:23.721
I thought it was really interesting that at no point was this unpacked.
00:04:23.721 --> 00:04:30.043
At no point, for example, I don't think, and if I've missed it, please let me know, because I've only watched it once.
00:04:30.043 --> 00:04:40.509
I was going to watch it again before doing this episode, and I have to admit that I just could not stomach to subject myself to watching the documentary again.
00:04:40.509 --> 00:04:41.598
So I will own it.
00:04:41.598 --> 00:04:44.410
So if I miss it, let me know, please.
00:04:44.410 --> 00:04:54.276
But as far as I could see, at no point through, for example, ask kind of more reflective questions like we are two different types of men.
00:04:54.276 --> 00:04:56.858
What is that like for you to notice that?
00:04:56.858 --> 00:05:15.961
you not have the same respect for me if I cannot lift as much weight as you can at the gym or if I am more interested in monogamy versus this type of one way non-monogamy that some of the influencers seem to embrace, right?
00:05:15.961 --> 00:05:17.882
Because more than one of them.
00:05:17.882 --> 00:05:23.423
I'm sad about wanting to have more than one uh relationship with women.
00:05:23.423 --> 00:05:27.456
And there were different examples of that as well.
00:05:27.456 --> 00:05:35.338
And so in a way, there's this contrast that it's already there from the beginning, but never really gets fully examined.
00:05:35.338 --> 00:05:44.225
There are never those moments of like, hey, let's really start slow down and think about what does masculinity mean?
00:05:44.225 --> 00:05:46.877
are their drawbacks to this kind of masculinity.
00:05:46.877 --> 00:05:51.860
And there are really some heartbreaking moments as well in the documentary.
00:05:51.860 --> 00:06:06.548
I think for me, when it comes to men, some of the heartbreaking moments were some of the young men who really idolize those influencers, and two of them are being interviewed, and one of them has uh lost a brother.
00:06:07.541 --> 00:06:13.305
to his brother completed suicide and alive himself by completing suicide.
00:06:13.305 --> 00:06:26.271
And this young man talk about not believing in depression, you know, and just like having to work hard for what you want and like not, you know, not give in to kind of your emotions in this way.
00:06:26.271 --> 00:06:44.220
And there is no examination of potentially the grief that might be there or this contrast between not believing in depression ah and yet having this very real experience of having lost his brother to suicide.
00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:50.444
And I think that that is a real theme that carries all the way through the documentary.
00:06:50.444 --> 00:06:54.137
You know, I was really hoping that maybe there would be multiple.
00:06:54.137 --> 00:06:55.855
It's just a one and done.
00:06:55.855 --> 00:07:06.055
I think this topic could have really benefited maybe from being a little bit more of a series where there could be kind of deeper conversation.
00:07:06.055 --> 00:07:17.142
And of course, was some suspicion from this man towards Theroux because they were scared that they would be misrepresented or that they would be ridiculed.
00:07:17.142 --> 00:07:26.689
And of course, as humans do, um one of the things that they, some of them do instead is kind of ridiculing Theroux, again, reinforcing this.
00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:31.995
um you know, it's either this type of man or this type of man.
00:07:32.076 --> 00:07:39.860
And we are going to be in competition with each other rather than being able to examine masculinity together.
00:07:42.112 --> 00:07:55.867
And now I'm not saying that those men would have necessarily have been willing, but it really feels like in a way they're afraid that Theroux is looking for a gotcha moment.
00:07:55.947 --> 00:08:05.052
And at the same time, they are also extracting from this uh documentary process by turning everything into content, you know?
00:08:05.052 --> 00:08:10.673
And so there are a lot of dynamics there that could have been examined in more depth.
00:08:10.673 --> 00:08:19.935
There is really no cultural reflection, there's no gender scholars who are brought in, for example, to reflect on some of those dynamics.
00:08:19.935 --> 00:08:28.536
Another heartbreaking em moment, I think, for me in the documentary is one of the influencers kind of set up.
00:08:28.939 --> 00:08:34.476
what they consider a prank, but it really goes pretty poorly.
00:08:34.476 --> 00:08:39.224
And the other men or with them beat up a member of the public.
00:08:39.224 --> 00:08:41.746
It is not shown in the documentary.
00:08:41.746 --> 00:08:47.567
uh But the influencer is clearly uncomfortable that this has happened.
00:08:47.567 --> 00:08:53.850
But once again, there isn't really space to examine that, to have reflection.
00:08:53.850 --> 00:09:16.850
And in that way, it feels that there was kind of a sensationalizing of the manosphere rather than asking ourselves, what is it in our culture, in this social, cultural, historical, political moment that is uh making this kind of masculinity appealing for a lot of young men.
00:09:16.850 --> 00:09:27.066
And we know that it is making this kind of masculinity appealing because, for example, younger men are actually more conservative now than older men in their values.
00:09:27.066 --> 00:09:29.376
And I think there's a reason for this.
00:09:29.376 --> 00:09:47.020
And so I think there's really a huge missed opportunity for reflection when it comes to what is the social, political, cultural, historical environment that is making this kind of alpha male, let's call it, air quote, mentality appealing, right?
00:09:47.042 --> 00:09:55.129
And instead there is the sensationalizing, showing some of the dissonance, but without ever commenting on it.
00:09:55.351 --> 00:09:58.144
which is very much through style and that's okay.
00:09:58.144 --> 00:10:05.931
And like I said, his style of documentary is not my preferred style of documentary, but I really thought there was a missed opportunity.
00:10:05.931 --> 00:10:15.717
And there was another missed opportunity in the kind of contrasting of like, obviously the very obvious binary was men versus women, right?
00:10:15.717 --> 00:10:39.196
uh You know, and there are some very interesting ideas that some of the men talk about, like this idea that women are born with inherent value and their value is basically, they don't call it this, this is what I would call it as a gender scholar, that uh women are born with inherent erotic capital.
00:10:39.196 --> 00:10:54.582
So how attractive they are, how much people wanna have sex with them, and that this erotic capital is something that they can exchange for opportunities, whereas men don't have this capital that they're born with.
00:10:54.582 --> 00:10:59.166
And that's, first of all, that's also heartbreaking.
00:10:59.245 --> 00:11:08.673
What have we done as a society to have some of these young men feel that they have no inherent worth?
00:11:08.673 --> 00:11:19.899
Because really what they're talking about is that they don't feel that they have any inherent worth and that women have this inherent worth that comes from erotic capital.
00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:37.812
And what's complicated is that in some ways, in dominant culture, they are not inherently wrong under kind of white Christian nationalism, for example, which probably several of those young men embrace.
00:11:37.812 --> 00:11:49.418
um And in kind of cis-heteromononormative patriarchal world, it is true that women often exchange erotic capital for opportunities.
00:11:49.418 --> 00:12:08.506
And we even see it in the documentary Inside the Manosphere with some of the kind of the young women kind of leveraging the platform that some of this men have, even though they obviously don't have any respect for this man, which makes complete sense because those men obviously don't have respect for them either.
00:12:08.506 --> 00:12:12.327
And so there is a, It's very transactional relationship.
00:12:12.327 --> 00:12:22.350
And in a way, under cis-heteromononormative kind of patriarchal culture, the relationship between men and women is very transactional.
00:12:22.350 --> 00:12:39.297
And so even though those men are viewed in some way as extremist or exceptional, I would actually say that they are a reflection of the cis-heteromononormative kind of Christian supremacist patriarchal values.
00:12:39.297 --> 00:12:40.607
they're not an exception.
00:12:40.607 --> 00:12:47.945
They might be a little bit more extreme, but they are a product um of this culture, right?
00:12:47.945 --> 00:12:57.772
And so the transactional relationship that is depicted between men and women is very much a reflection of what...
00:12:58.187 --> 00:13:02.268
the culture of Cicero mononormative patriarchy tells us, right?
00:13:02.268 --> 00:13:03.698
In a lot of ways.
00:13:03.698 --> 00:13:09.279
And so that kind of binary, that contrast, again, is not really unpacked.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:27.745
There are some moment where, for example, with one of the men that's being interviewed, know, Theroux asks question when uh the partner is present, the partner is a woman, they're not, you know, married and it's, the man has made it very clear.
00:13:27.956 --> 00:13:35.823
that at some point he would like to have multiple female partners and that this is something that maybe she's not really on board with.
00:13:35.823 --> 00:13:51.179
And Theroux tries to ask some questions about this, but rather than doing it in a way that feels, you know, in a way that feels consensual, in a way that feels negotiated, like, hey, can we have a conversation all together about this?
00:13:51.298 --> 00:13:59.503
This might have been challenging as well because many of those men were really trying to gatekeep access to how much Theroux talked to some of the women.
00:13:59.503 --> 00:14:18.846
But again, it feels like uh the women inside the manosphere are used almost as an object to make a point, which in a way also reproduces kind of patriarchal ideas of femininity.
00:14:18.846 --> 00:14:34.273
And so I'm not sure that this contrast that the documentary starts to make at the beginning between this is the type of man inside the manosphere and this is the type of man that Theroux is, right, a more intellectual, curious man.
00:14:34.273 --> 00:14:40.225
But both of them in some ways seem to be using women as a prop.
00:14:40.619 --> 00:14:44.548
There really, you know, there are in-depth interviews with the women.
00:14:44.548 --> 00:15:03.294
And again, it might be that Theroux tried, but he only tried to have those conversations with women who had very close proximity to the many interviewed, rather than, for example, seeking out women who...
00:15:03.294 --> 00:15:17.676
would have had more freedom to talk with them, you know, and the only woman who really gets a little bit more airtime, I think it's one of the partners of one of the men being interviewed.
00:15:17.676 --> 00:15:27.232
uh And they have a whole family, have children, and initially he doesn't want Theroux to have access to his family, but then he changes his mind.
00:15:27.232 --> 00:15:30.153
And this is one of the women who's actually very supportive.
00:15:30.153 --> 00:15:33.113
And so she gets more airtime.
00:15:33.113 --> 00:15:46.712
But I think there could have been other very interesting conversations, you know, to be had with what is it that, for example, the women who are partnered with those men find attractive about those men?
00:15:46.712 --> 00:15:49.340
What is it about those relationships?
00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:50.840
that serve them?
00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:58.261
And what is it about this lack of equality in some way in relationship that is attractive to them?
00:15:58.261 --> 00:16:06.043
And how that is also a product in some way of kind of the very cis-genderist culture that we live in.
00:16:06.043 --> 00:16:10.683
And I want to take a moment to break down what I mean by cis-genderist culture.
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.004
I believe I've already talked about cis-genderism.
00:16:15.116 --> 00:16:22.520
in uh one of the episodes of Warm Tech Wednesdays where I really unpack if there is a real gender ideology, right?
00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:36.386
And I talk about cisgenderism as the ideology where we believe that folks whose gender identity is aligned with their gender assigned at birth is kind of the natural, in air quote, of being for humans, right?
00:16:36.386 --> 00:16:45.850
So the idea that if you're born with vulva, you're supposed to identify as a woman and that there are certain expectations and characteristics that come with that.
00:16:45.850 --> 00:16:50.494
if you're born with a penis, you're expected to identify and be a man.
00:16:50.494 --> 00:16:54.355
And that there are certain expectations and characteristics that come with that.
00:16:54.355 --> 00:17:02.599
Now there can be a little bit of room in each of those boxes, but they're definitely separate and distinct boxes, right?
00:17:02.599 --> 00:17:10.563
And so cisgenderism is the ideology that says that this is the natural way of being, right?
00:17:10.563 --> 00:17:14.505
And cisgenderism is just one manifestation, really.
00:17:14.505 --> 00:17:16.646
of biological determinism.
00:17:16.646 --> 00:17:26.252
The idea that the characteristics that we are, you know, the physical characteristics that we are born with dictate the kind of person that we are.
00:17:26.252 --> 00:17:38.721
So, for example, the idea that women are naturally nurturing and caring and that men are naturally, again, air quote, you know, the providers.
00:17:38.721 --> 00:17:45.964
Those are very kind of uh ideas that uh are biologically determined, right?
00:17:45.964 --> 00:17:54.919
Like if you're born with the sect of biological characteristics, you're going to have this psychological, social, emotional characteristics.
00:17:55.038 --> 00:17:56.859
There's a lot more to say about that.
00:17:56.859 --> 00:17:58.820
I've done a whole episode about that.
00:17:58.820 --> 00:18:01.162
think it's episode two or three.
00:18:01.162 --> 00:18:01.622
I don't know.
00:18:01.622 --> 00:18:04.002
You'll have to check it out on the channel.
00:18:04.002 --> 00:18:09.164
But again, this idea is never really fully brought out in the documentary.
00:18:09.164 --> 00:18:12.205
And I think that that is such a missed opportunity.
00:18:12.205 --> 00:18:19.951
At one point there is mentioned in passing of gender ideology, and it's actually from one of the men being interviewed.
00:18:19.951 --> 00:18:24.034
And they're talking about gender ideology in terms of trans people.
00:18:24.094 --> 00:18:31.419
And that could have been such an opportunity for Theroux to say, but what about the gender ideology of Inside the Manosphere?
00:18:31.419 --> 00:18:33.661
You also have a gender ideology.
00:18:33.661 --> 00:18:48.650
You think that men are supposed to act and be a certain way to be real men, in air quote, and that women kind of uh have to act in certain ways or are a certain way because of who they are, right?
00:18:48.650 --> 00:18:50.832
That is also a gender ideology.
00:18:50.832 --> 00:18:57.316
Again, there is this real uh missed opportunity to go deeper and for reflection.
00:18:57.316 --> 00:19:04.020
And this is something that I'm seeing a lot when it comes to the discourse around the differences between men and women.
00:19:04.020 --> 00:19:13.346
Sometimes the patriarchy might get mentioned, but it never goes beyond actually questioning the foundations of sisterhood.
00:19:13.346 --> 00:19:17.928
And this is really what we're talking about is the foundations.
00:19:17.928 --> 00:19:31.932
When the foundations um are rooted in cisgenderism, it is not a surprise then that men and women feel that there are certain way that they are supposed to be to fit into society, right?
00:19:31.932 --> 00:19:47.176
And at this moment where we're facing the global rise of fascism and lot of uncertainty, I think a lot of people are grasping for what can give us a level of security, of safety and uncertainty.
00:19:47.176 --> 00:19:55.630
And people love to talk about the loneliness epidemic that some men are experiencing or even the manosphere.
00:19:55.630 --> 00:20:00.009
And yet, why is it that we can never connect the dots?
00:20:00.009 --> 00:20:05.410
We either talk about trans people separately from the way we talk about men and women.
00:20:05.410 --> 00:20:10.490
I'm even seeing a lot of discourse around how the matriarchy is gonna save us.
00:20:10.490 --> 00:20:16.730
And I actually don't think the matriarchy is gonna save us, but I'm not gonna go into that right now.
00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:21.824
I have an old article that I'm writing for Substack on that very topic.
00:20:21.824 --> 00:20:44.488
And the reason why I don't think the short version, I will give you the short reason of why I don't think the matriarchy is going to save us, is that we're still reinforcing this binary, this idea that there are men and women and only men and women in terms of gender expansiveness, gender diversity in our humanity.
00:20:44.488 --> 00:20:58.031
And as long as we keep perpetuating this idea, that uh men have certain inherent characteristics and women have certain inherent characteristics, we're still promoting biological determinism.
00:20:58.031 --> 00:21:14.420
So people who are saying the matriarchy is going to save us because women are naturally more caring and cooperative, ultimately are still perpetuating the same ideas through a different package that the folks inside the manosphere are also talking about.
00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:39.422
And it might seem weird to say that women who are talking about the matriarchy and the divine feminine and the power of the womb are perpetuating the same ideas that those male influencers of Inside the Manosphere who are all about being an alpha male, they seem very opposite, but in reality, they're two sides of the same coin.
00:21:39.422 --> 00:21:43.324
And that is my main criticism of Inside the Manosphere.
00:21:43.324 --> 00:21:46.922
At no point does it show how this is two sides.
00:21:46.922 --> 00:21:49.105
of the same coin, right?
00:21:49.105 --> 00:21:55.296
These ideas are never really fully explored and fully challenged.
00:21:55.296 --> 00:22:21.776
And by not fully exploring and not fully challenging this, We keep perpetuating this separation, this dichotomy, and in a way the pain that uh those men, especially the young men who are following some of these influencers, are starting to, are trying to really manage, right?
00:22:21.776 --> 00:22:30.068
At one point, it's very clear that what some of those young men are talking about is the impact of late stage capitalism.
00:22:30.068 --> 00:22:34.836
and how hard it is to survive under late-stage capitalism.
00:22:35.136 --> 00:22:38.378
But of course, that is not how they talk about it.
00:22:38.378 --> 00:22:47.083
The way that they have been conditioned to think about this is that women are taking opportunities away from them, right?
00:22:47.083 --> 00:22:52.404
Or for white people, the folks of the global majority are taking opportunities away from them.
00:22:52.404 --> 00:22:58.117
Or that trans people are really the folks who we need to be afraid of.
00:22:58.117 --> 00:23:07.491
And really, by trans people, often, unfortunately, people mean trans women because misogyny and transmisogyny particular is well and alive.
00:23:07.492 --> 00:23:25.207
And so I really question in many ways how useful it is to have a documentary like Inside the Manosphere beyond the controversy and the sensationalizing.
00:23:25.207 --> 00:23:48.724
And I also question whether Theroux himself and some of those men aren't two sides of the same coin because much as Theroux talks about how for many of these male influencers, right, everything is content, but in a way he's also treating all of this as content and a content that's been very popular, right?
00:23:48.724 --> 00:23:50.776
It's all over social media.
00:23:50.776 --> 00:24:00.232
It's all over different kind of online uh magazines in terms of like critiques or support for the documentary.
00:24:00.292 --> 00:24:12.179
And again, I question how different are really those two different, those types of masculinity and why is it that one is seen as acceptable?
00:24:12.179 --> 00:24:24.664
Obviously, Theroux is seen as a more acceptable type of liberal, inner quote, masculinity versus the conservative type of masculinity that those influencers are embodying.
00:24:24.826 --> 00:24:36.473
But in reality, aren't they both serving the same cultural parameters and aren't they both chasing likes in different ways, right?
00:24:36.473 --> 00:25:06.417
uh On social media those young men might be chasing likes but you know Theroux as a documentarian is chasing viewers and Netflix as the producer of the documentary is chasing money and yet These of similarities are never explored because if we start questioning the foundation, then the whole system starts to crack.
00:25:06.417 --> 00:25:11.787
If we start saying that, hang on a minute, actually, our...
00:25:11.787 --> 00:25:23.035
you know, the influencers were kind of chasing likes through portraying this idea of more money, more women, more cars, more houses, right?
00:25:23.035 --> 00:25:27.307
More wealth, more prestige, more popularity, more likes.
00:25:27.509 --> 00:25:32.372
And Theroux are they different kind of masculinity?
00:25:32.511 --> 00:25:45.446
Are the women who are, you know, talking about the need for a matriarchy to push back against the patriarchy really different?
00:25:45.446 --> 00:25:57.376
um Or are all of those people still perpetuating a system that is not going to crack anytime soon because we always stop short?
00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:10.414
And I think that that is my main criticism, not only of this documentary, but generally how we talk about men and women, especially in the context of dominant culture.
00:26:10.414 --> 00:26:15.417
We stop short of really questioning this idea of biological determinism.
00:26:15.417 --> 00:26:43.202
And so as long as we believe that women are naturally more caring, more cooperative, more monogamous even, um you know, and that men are the ones are more interested in power and power over rather than power with in all these different ways, how are we truly challenging biological determinism?
00:26:43.202 --> 00:26:44.722
I don't think we are.
00:26:47.346 --> 00:26:49.698
And honestly, those are just some initial thoughts.
00:26:49.698 --> 00:26:54.700
And I always welcome kind of comments, pushback questions.
00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:57.121
And I really want to think about this more.
00:26:57.121 --> 00:27:06.784
I might make myself watch the documentary again and put those thoughts in writing in a more kind of uh consistent way.
00:27:06.884 --> 00:27:17.871
Because one of the things that I like to do m in this kind of YouTube series, as well as in my podcast, Gender Stories, is really to have a conversation.
00:27:17.871 --> 00:27:30.933
It's really hard to have a conversation by myself, but hopefully it feels like I'm having a conversation with you, the viewers, and if you're listening to this on a different type of podcast platform with you, the listeners.
00:27:30.933 --> 00:27:34.575
And so I truly do want to know what you're thinking.
00:27:34.935 --> 00:27:45.058
And ultimately, the last kind of couple of things that I want to say is that I wonder, what would happen if we could stay a little more curious.
00:27:45.058 --> 00:27:56.324
I wonder what kind of documentary we could have had if we had approached this uh man with more compassion and curiosity and kindness.
00:27:56.324 --> 00:27:58.765
And believe me, I get it.
00:27:58.765 --> 00:28:10.670
It is hard to approach some of those men with curiosity and compassion and kindness because they're saying incredibly harmful things, incredibly misogynistic things.
00:28:10.829 --> 00:28:26.329
uh There is a good dose of antisemitism at one point in the documentary, so if you haven't watched it, also be aware of that, that there is some significant antisemitism because of who the root is.
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:45.567
And so I'm not saying that it would have been easy, but I think that in a way, isn't that the responsibility of somebody who's making a documentary to approach the subject of the documentary with curiosity and to try and understand their point of view.
00:28:45.567 --> 00:29:00.434
And so I would have been much more interested in going deep and understanding how are we creating the condition for this male influencers to have the million of followers that they have.
00:29:00.615 --> 00:29:20.364
And I think some of the, as a gender scholar, a few ways in which we're creating the conditions for this young man to rise to um having the size of following and the level of influence that they have on young men is by, you know.
00:29:20.736 --> 00:29:26.838
perpetuating capitalism, the idea that our worth comes from money and capital.
00:29:26.838 --> 00:29:35.823
And so of course, everybody wants more money and capital, because if that's where our worth comes from, that's what we need to try and get, right?
00:29:35.823 --> 00:29:48.769
And also how we're all struggling as prices are rising, as we're facing a climate crisis globally, you know, as well as the global rise of fascism.
00:29:48.969 --> 00:29:53.105
We're all struggling to like pay the rent, pay the mortgage, pay the bills.
00:29:53.105 --> 00:30:05.634
And so of course it's attractive if you have somebody who's telling you, have the secret for you to not work so hard and make a lot of money and have exactly the kind of lifestyle you want to have.
00:30:05.674 --> 00:30:07.355
How could that not be popular?
00:30:07.355 --> 00:30:20.526
I mean, even on this platform of YouTube, have a look around of how popular the platforms are telling you how to grow, you know, you're following from, you know, zero to a hundred thousand.
00:30:20.526 --> 00:30:26.645
overnight, how to monetize everything, how to find more sources of income, right?
00:30:26.645 --> 00:30:30.685
There's a reason why all that content is so popular.
00:30:30.786 --> 00:30:32.286
We are suffering.
00:30:32.286 --> 00:30:35.026
We are suffering under late-stage capitalism.
00:30:35.026 --> 00:30:41.306
We can't afford to pay our bills and we're working harder than ever in a lot of different places.
00:30:41.306 --> 00:30:45.066
And so of course people are going to be drawn to that kind of content.
00:30:45.066 --> 00:31:00.366
And also When we live in a culture that is so uh lacking in kind of um curiosity and compassion and connection.
00:31:00.650 --> 00:31:04.511
That's often what people are looking for when they're following this man.
00:31:04.511 --> 00:31:10.104
They're looking for those parasocial relationships where they feel seen and valued.
00:31:10.104 --> 00:31:16.788
And so what is it that we're doing that is making young men not feeling seen or valued?
00:31:16.788 --> 00:31:22.509
And believe me, I think it is important that we keep talking about toxic masculinity.
00:31:22.509 --> 00:31:29.433
Toxic masculinity is a thing, but masculinity in itself is not evil.
00:31:29.433 --> 00:31:37.278
And that is part of the issue that people are taking those systemic issues and reducing them to individual issues.
00:31:37.278 --> 00:31:46.224
And even this documentary in a way is taking this really important topic of why does the manosphere even exist?
00:31:46.224 --> 00:31:47.786
Why does it exist?
00:31:47.786 --> 00:31:49.207
Who does it serve?
00:31:49.207 --> 00:31:57.832
Who benefits from some of the values that are being promoted in the manosphere and who's financing the manosphere?
00:31:57.832 --> 00:32:00.446
These are the questions that are wanted.
00:32:00.446 --> 00:32:04.227
to see tackled in the documentary.
00:32:04.227 --> 00:32:05.426
Who's benefiting?
00:32:05.426 --> 00:32:07.807
Who's paying the bills of those dudes?
00:32:07.807 --> 00:32:11.227
And why are they being promoted, right?
00:32:12.846 --> 00:32:17.307
There is money behind those folks.
00:32:18.226 --> 00:32:25.940
Some of these young men are being extracted from, exploited, uh and they're exploiting others, right?
00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:30.761
I'm not denying that some of their behaviors are abhorrent.
00:32:30.761 --> 00:32:36.444
They're violent, they're misogynistic, antisemitic, all the things they have already said, they're transphobic, right?
00:32:36.444 --> 00:32:48.351
There's definitely a passing comment uh around transphobia and kind of, uh you know, the idea that gender ideology is really about trans people.
00:32:48.351 --> 00:32:54.479
whereas as you know I would say that the gender ideology in dominant culture is cisgenderism.
00:32:56.107 --> 00:33:01.048
Those were the questions that I wanted to see tackled because those are systemic questions.
00:33:01.048 --> 00:33:05.407
And instead, the documentary again, individualizes everything.
00:33:05.407 --> 00:33:20.528
And as long as we individualize those issues and we see those as extremists and as separate from us, I don't think that we can achieve meaningful meaningful change together collectively.
00:33:20.528 --> 00:33:21.508
Right.
00:33:21.508 --> 00:33:22.948
And so.
00:33:23.730 --> 00:33:43.426
Dear watchers on YouTube or listeners, if you're listening, those are the kind of questions that I encourage you to ask yourself, whether you've already watched the documentary or whether you decide to watch the documentary after em seeing this episode or listening to this episode.
00:33:43.426 --> 00:33:46.268
I really want you to ask yourself some questions.
00:33:47.101 --> 00:33:55.267
What is the system that is making those men so appealing, not just to men, but also to women?
00:33:55.827 --> 00:34:08.679
What is the system that benefits from this kind of discourse, whether the discourse is from the Manosphere or from a documentary like Inside the Manosphere?
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:10.259
Who benefits?
00:34:10.981 --> 00:34:12.942
Where is the money?
00:34:12.942 --> 00:34:15.184
Always ask yourself, where is the money?
00:34:15.436 --> 00:34:17.155
Who's making the money?
00:34:17.295 --> 00:34:18.135
Where is the money?
00:34:18.135 --> 00:34:19.215
Who's benefiting?
00:34:19.215 --> 00:34:19.735
Right?
00:34:19.735 --> 00:34:22.675
The producers is Netflix.
00:34:22.936 --> 00:34:30.195
They are not really invested in challenging, you know, biological determinism.
00:34:30.255 --> 00:34:38.916
I would hope that Theroux as a documentarian might have been a little bit more invested in going deeper, but that's not the choice he made.
00:34:38.916 --> 00:34:40.376
And that's okay.
00:34:40.675 --> 00:34:41.936
He's a creator.
00:34:41.936 --> 00:34:48.478
He gets to create in the way that, um, He wants to and that best suits him.
00:34:48.478 --> 00:35:04.550
But as long as we take this big systemic issues and reduce them to this individual phenomena, I think that we're going to keep living in the same type of culture and society that we're already living in.
00:35:05.010 --> 00:35:08.452
Because we're reproducing the same kind of binaries.
00:35:08.914 --> 00:35:10.353
Man and women.
00:35:10.414 --> 00:35:12.487
Bad man, good man.
00:35:12.487 --> 00:35:22.990
misogynistic man, non-misogynistic man, feminist man, non-feminist man, know, toxic man, non-toxic man.
00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:33.914
And I don't want us to be able to just distinguish between good man, bad man, toxic man, non-toxic man, misogynistic man, non-misogynistic man.
00:35:33.914 --> 00:35:39.596
I want us to question the whole thing at the root.
00:35:39.692 --> 00:35:51.952
I really want us to ask what would it take for masculinity to be expansive.
00:35:52.052 --> 00:35:55.414
And what would it take for femininity to be expansive?
00:35:55.414 --> 00:36:05.929
And what would it take for people who don't fit into masculinity or femininity, who want to mix it up or want to divest from this binary altogether?
00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:12.063
As long as we don't question those binaries, we're just reproducing new binaries.
00:36:12.063 --> 00:36:18.606
And so, sure, you know, we might be better able to distinguish the good man from the bad man.
00:36:20.112 --> 00:36:23.465
And at the end of the day, as the system changed.
00:36:23.465 --> 00:36:24.476
Not really.
00:36:24.476 --> 00:36:27.336
And what I'm interested in is system change.
00:36:27.336 --> 00:36:31.358
I hope you're interested in that too, if you're watching or listening.
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.019
So for now, I'm going to stop rambling.
00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:36.431
Please let me know what you think about this new format.
00:36:36.431 --> 00:36:37.961
I mean, don't get me wrong.
00:36:37.961 --> 00:36:47.865
It's really nerve wracking to go live rather than to record the episode, really think it through, edit it and give you the most polished version of myself.
00:36:47.865 --> 00:36:51.907
But I hope that this live format also gives you something.
00:36:51.907 --> 00:37:04.467
What it gives me is the opportunity to bypass all my anxiety and just do the thing and put it out there and see what you how it lands and what you think about it.
00:37:04.467 --> 00:37:12.704
And I would love to hear whether you like this format or if you want me to go back to a more polished, pre-recorded format.
00:37:12.704 --> 00:37:17.431
And I hope that maybe you'll tune in live next time.
00:37:17.431 --> 00:37:21.753
I would love to see some of you tuning in live, asking questions.
00:37:21.753 --> 00:37:28.297
And if there is a topic that you would like me to tackle in a future Warm Tech Wednesdays, please let me know.
00:37:28.862 --> 00:37:32.865
But for now, please take really good and gentle care of yourself.
00:37:32.865 --> 00:37:39.971
Stay curious and ask yourself, is this an individual issue or is this a systemic issue?
00:37:39.971 --> 00:37:46.934
And if it's a systemic issue, are there different questions that maybe we could ask ourselves and each other?
00:37:47.596 --> 00:37:51.199
Take good and gentle care of yourself and one another.
