1
00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,566
Okay, recording. So here we are. I am here
2
00:00:15,638 --> 00:00:19,678
with my good friend Ray Owen. Ray, do you want to introduce yourself?
3
00:00:19,814 --> 00:00:22,870
Who are you? Who the hell are you? Who the hell am I?
4
00:00:22,910 --> 00:00:26,422
That's a question I ask myself often. Who the hell am I to dot
5
00:00:26,446 --> 00:00:30,382
dot dot dot dot? And the answer is yeah, I'm Ray Owen. I am,
6
00:00:30,526 --> 00:00:34,662
I guess, many things. Part of the context of being here is
7
00:00:34,726 --> 00:00:38,318
I'm a psychologist and you
8
00:00:38,334 --> 00:00:42,170
and I, rich, have known each other for ten years. Is it?
9
00:00:42,590 --> 00:00:45,798
I'm gonna say eleven. Gosh. Gosh.
10
00:00:45,934 --> 00:00:49,262
Given that, although actually we work with slightly different groups
11
00:00:49,286 --> 00:00:52,486
of people, we both share this
12
00:00:52,598 --> 00:00:56,370
common way of, of working with people. It's kind of common psychological
13
00:00:56,410 --> 00:00:59,842
approach. That's how we got to know each other. So I guess that means that
14
00:00:59,866 --> 00:01:03,418
you've got to introduce yourself. Rich probably should. Yeah. So my
15
00:01:03,434 --> 00:01:07,322
name's Rich. Yeah. I work as a clinical psychologist and cognitive
16
00:01:07,386 --> 00:01:11,430
behavioral psychotherapist and I
17
00:01:11,890 --> 00:01:15,666
met you at a conference, I think
18
00:01:15,698 --> 00:01:19,274
it was the first UK conference
19
00:01:19,362 --> 00:01:22,698
for acceptance and commitment therapy, which is I
20
00:01:22,714 --> 00:01:26,398
guess, a type of therapy that we probably have in common. Right.
21
00:01:26,594 --> 00:01:30,854
We both subscribe to that way of thinking. Probably influences us
22
00:01:30,902 --> 00:01:34,094
personally and professionally and. Yeah, that's, I think,
23
00:01:34,142 --> 00:01:37,686
where we met, actually. We met, I know exactly where we met. We met
24
00:01:37,798 --> 00:01:41,206
in. I mean, this is going to sound really weird to anyone outside of
25
00:01:41,238 --> 00:01:44,686
these professional circles. We met whilst
26
00:01:44,838 --> 00:01:48,246
making some sort of body sculpture of the
27
00:01:48,278 --> 00:01:51,926
UK. Do you remember that? Was that. Oh, was that
28
00:01:51,958 --> 00:01:54,412
the first time? Oh yeah,
29
00:01:54,516 --> 00:01:58,380
yeah. So trying to find out how many people at
30
00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,900
this conference were from like different areas or whether people that have
31
00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,820
knew each other. Yes. We did this sort of thing where we had a big
32
00:02:04,860 --> 00:02:09,036
space in a room and got everybody to move to like an imagined map and
33
00:02:09,068 --> 00:02:12,092
worked out that quite a few of us were sort of in the Midlands of
34
00:02:12,116 --> 00:02:15,364
England. That's right, yeah. So we ended up kind of
35
00:02:15,412 --> 00:02:19,196
standing next to each other because, yeah, in this
36
00:02:19,388 --> 00:02:23,012
imagined version of the UK, we were, we were kind of. We were
37
00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:26,256
geographically located fairly closely, weren't we?
38
00:02:26,448 --> 00:02:30,056
Yeah, yeah, just, yeah, I mean, we probably live about 45
39
00:02:30,088 --> 00:02:33,856
minutes from each other, but in terms of clusters
40
00:02:33,888 --> 00:02:36,940
of population. Yeah, absolutely. Very close.
41
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,928
I often think about working as a psychologist. There are,
42
00:02:42,064 --> 00:02:45,360
you know, there are moments in your life, probably wherever you work, whoever you are,
43
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,584
there's moments in your life where you find yourself in a situation and
44
00:02:48,592 --> 00:02:52,848
you think, what sort of choices did I make that
45
00:02:52,864 --> 00:02:55,960
have brought me to this moment where I'm
46
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,220
making some kind of weird body sculpture of the UK?
47
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,872
Nevertheless, that's what happened, and we met each
48
00:03:02,896 --> 00:03:06,700
other then, and we've stayed firm friends and colleagues ever since.
49
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,224
And so when this
50
00:03:10,272 --> 00:03:15,080
idea of making a podcast came to my consciousness,
51
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,352
you were the first person I thought of in terms of who would I like
52
00:03:18,376 --> 00:03:21,892
to do this with? Very touched that that
53
00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,520
was your first response.
54
00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:28,012
Well, there we are. We'll see. We'll see,
55
00:03:28,036 --> 00:03:30,860
won't we? Whether that turns out to have been a good decision or not.
56
00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:34,452
But. So why are we here? We should probably say something about why we're here,
57
00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,964
what we're doing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Why are
58
00:03:37,972 --> 00:03:41,236
you here? Why are you here? Why are we here? Well, I think
59
00:03:41,268 --> 00:03:44,644
I'm here in order to. Well, in order to have
60
00:03:44,652 --> 00:03:47,860
a conversation with a friend, but a conversation with a friend
61
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,512
that's kind of about some fairly
62
00:03:51,656 --> 00:03:55,416
broad issues of life, then it's based on the
63
00:03:55,448 --> 00:03:58,608
fact that two of us come, I suppose, some similar
64
00:03:58,664 --> 00:04:02,300
perspectives. Thinking about working in psychology,
65
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,776
I think it kind of does influence how you end up reacting to stuff.
66
00:04:05,808 --> 00:04:09,328
Doesn't mean, you know, you're seeing things clearer or you're seeing things better,
67
00:04:09,384 --> 00:04:12,722
but maybe that's something that be interesting for the two of us to
68
00:04:12,746 --> 00:04:16,586
talk about. We should probably address the title, shouldn't we? And I think
69
00:04:16,658 --> 00:04:20,050
that's. That was our plan, to address the title of this podcast over the.
70
00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:23,866
Over the next few episodes. But firstly, we wanted to address this idea
71
00:04:23,898 --> 00:04:26,858
of two. Yeah. Because I thought when I.
72
00:04:26,874 --> 00:04:30,154
When I had this idea that I would. I'd like to do something a bit
73
00:04:30,202 --> 00:04:33,274
different. This is part of aging, I think,
74
00:04:33,322 --> 00:04:36,802
and part of wanting to broaden
75
00:04:36,826 --> 00:04:40,510
your horizons, keep doing things that are new and challenging.
76
00:04:40,890 --> 00:04:44,866
I definitely didn't want to do it on my own. Right. I didn't
77
00:04:44,898 --> 00:04:48,418
want to sit and do a monologue. And, you know,
78
00:04:48,434 --> 00:04:52,154
having been involved in various other projects,
79
00:04:52,322 --> 00:04:56,090
I've never done a podcast before, not properly.
80
00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:58,590
I've been in a guest on one or two.
81
00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:02,146
I did not want to sit in front of a microphone doing a monologue.
82
00:05:02,178 --> 00:05:05,242
So the first thing that really came to my mind was, who could I do
83
00:05:05,266 --> 00:05:08,970
this with? Who could I connect with? How could
84
00:05:09,010 --> 00:05:12,874
I contribute something kind of meaningful and hopefully
85
00:05:12,922 --> 00:05:16,578
interesting to the world? And definitely had
86
00:05:16,594 --> 00:05:19,682
the idea that I didn't want to do that on my own. I heard it
87
00:05:19,706 --> 00:05:23,218
said just recently that, you know, in the old days, a couple
88
00:05:23,234 --> 00:05:26,418
of middle aged blokes decided they wanted to do something different. They'd have
89
00:05:26,434 --> 00:05:29,970
formed a band, and now they start doing a podcast.
90
00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:33,618
So, you know, I mean, we're both sort of amateur musicians as well,
91
00:05:33,794 --> 00:05:35,914
so we could have gone the other route we could have in a band,
92
00:05:35,962 --> 00:05:40,364
but we decided to do a podcast of two old
93
00:05:40,492 --> 00:05:44,160
psychologists talking about stuff, talking about life.
94
00:05:44,660 --> 00:05:47,756
Yeah, I feel like this is probably the lesser of those
95
00:05:47,788 --> 00:05:51,452
two evils, if I'm honest. I'm not sure anyone wants
96
00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,200
to listen to the kind of music that we would make now.
97
00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:58,788
Do you think we need to address the great big old
98
00:05:58,924 --> 00:06:02,132
white male elephant in the room? Do you
99
00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:05,090
think we should just say something about that? Yeah,
100
00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:08,990
absolutely. I remember when I first floated this
101
00:06:09,030 --> 00:06:13,050
idea to you. We were in a pub, and you looked at me
102
00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:16,766
with a look that I can only sort of describe
103
00:06:16,798 --> 00:06:18,890
as, I don't know, it was contempt.
104
00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:22,846
Disdain. Like I was asking for
105
00:06:22,878 --> 00:06:26,470
something terrible. You know, I'd made some awful social faux pas.
106
00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:29,630
And you said something like, as if there aren't enough white,
107
00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:32,918
middle class men making podcasts. You know, almost like
108
00:06:32,934 --> 00:06:34,990
the last thing you would want to do is kind of add to that great
109
00:06:35,030 --> 00:06:38,718
big heap of detritus that's out there already. Yeah.
110
00:06:38,814 --> 00:06:43,010
Yeah. And I remember the second question being my wife
111
00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:47,502
saying to your partner, Rich, had he already asked you and you've
112
00:06:47,526 --> 00:06:51,290
turned him down? And her saying, nope, he hasn't asked me.
113
00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:54,790
I think, and maybe this is one of the things about
114
00:06:54,830 --> 00:06:58,078
getting older, I think I've probably gone a little bit past
115
00:06:58,134 --> 00:07:01,524
the point of feeling like I have to apologize about just
116
00:07:01,572 --> 00:07:04,892
being who I am. You know, it was. It wasn't of my choosing. I didn't
117
00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:08,516
choose to be born. I didn't choose to be born white or
118
00:07:08,548 --> 00:07:12,620
male. I like to think for as much as I'm sensitive,
119
00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:15,560
and I think it's important to be so,
120
00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:19,732
particularly when you kind of, you know, perhaps belong to the group
121
00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,012
that's enjoyed a lot of power and privilege
122
00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,828
in society, I, you know, at the same time, I don't think I need to
123
00:07:26,844 --> 00:07:30,582
apologize for it. And I think that we
124
00:07:30,646 --> 00:07:34,366
have probably both got something interesting to say, irrespective of the fact
125
00:07:34,398 --> 00:07:38,582
that we represent a somewhat limited demographic, don't we?
126
00:07:38,766 --> 00:07:42,766
Yeah. The context of this is us choosing to do
127
00:07:42,918 --> 00:07:47,006
a podcast which people can listen to, not listen to. And I
128
00:07:47,038 --> 00:07:50,534
know because we've both been in this situation, there are other contexts
129
00:07:50,582 --> 00:07:54,206
where perhaps we're both involved in presenting things at
130
00:07:54,238 --> 00:07:57,646
academic conference, you know, where you would
131
00:07:57,718 --> 00:08:01,758
say, you're putting together a group of people, and there we would very intentionally
132
00:08:01,814 --> 00:08:05,150
say, absolutely no way that we're going to do this panel,
133
00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:09,010
just all men. If we found ourselves on the verge of that happening,
134
00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:13,166
I think under those circumstances, you'd say, well, that's a different kind of setting,
135
00:08:13,358 --> 00:08:16,570
different sorts of responsibilities and different sort of
136
00:08:16,990 --> 00:08:20,102
drivers to get other sorts of perspectives in. No,
137
00:08:20,126 --> 00:08:23,726
I think that's fair. And I think, yeah, there's a big, wide world
138
00:08:23,758 --> 00:08:27,286
out there, lots to choose from. This is just one option, isn't it? Okay,
139
00:08:27,358 --> 00:08:31,182
so that said, the question I think that's on my mind here
140
00:08:31,366 --> 00:08:35,230
is that why was my first intuition
141
00:08:35,350 --> 00:08:38,102
to think about, who am I going to do this with?
142
00:08:38,246 --> 00:08:41,438
Why do you think connection is so important? Why do you think
143
00:08:41,494 --> 00:08:45,310
hanging out with other human beings is so important? I mean,
144
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:49,062
it's easy to come out with kind of the
145
00:08:49,086 --> 00:08:52,528
first response that's sort
146
00:08:52,544 --> 00:08:55,936
of my background and my work puts into my mouth,
147
00:08:56,128 --> 00:08:59,260
which is to say something like, by and large,
148
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,192
humans are a social species. You know, we often say,
149
00:09:03,216 --> 00:09:06,856
don't we? Humans are a bit of a campfire species. We don't. We're not,
150
00:09:06,928 --> 00:09:09,304
you know, we don't have armor, we don't have claws, we don't have wings.
151
00:09:09,352 --> 00:09:12,208
Those are survival benefits this species has.
152
00:09:12,384 --> 00:09:16,032
We do seem to survive better in groups back
153
00:09:16,056 --> 00:09:19,536
in our evolutionary history. Probably survived in small tribes,
154
00:09:19,608 --> 00:09:21,968
campfires, keeping each other safe.
155
00:09:22,144 --> 00:09:25,752
So that being the case, you know, we're all
156
00:09:25,776 --> 00:09:29,256
the descendants of the ones who fitted in to that because the others
157
00:09:29,408 --> 00:09:33,608
kicked out of the tribe and got eaten by the wolves. So I
158
00:09:33,624 --> 00:09:37,416
guess, from my point of view, kind of suggests that we
159
00:09:37,528 --> 00:09:41,368
feel safer with other humans. I don't know if it's been your experience,
160
00:09:41,464 --> 00:09:45,472
but I think I've encountered people sort of through my professional
161
00:09:45,656 --> 00:09:49,968
life. And I think I've been guilty of this myself sometimes
162
00:09:50,024 --> 00:09:54,072
as almost talking about the need for
163
00:09:54,136 --> 00:09:57,680
connection with others as being a problem. Like it somehow
164
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,100
reflects badly on me. So I've heard people say things like,
165
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,200
I'm just so needy, or I worry
166
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,232
about being a burden. So it's interesting, isn't it,
167
00:10:08,256 --> 00:10:12,156
that because I think I would agree with you that it
168
00:10:12,188 --> 00:10:15,396
feels like an innate kind of drive, doesn't it? It feels
169
00:10:15,428 --> 00:10:18,892
like this is just the kind of species that we are.
170
00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,532
We like hanging out together, we like communing with each other,
171
00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:26,300
we like sitting around a campfire, breaking bread, all of those kinds of
172
00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:30,260
ways of talking about it. And yet there is also this
173
00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:34,412
thing that seems to persist about this idea that it's somehow a bad
174
00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:38,052
thing or that you could use it as a stick to
175
00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,672
beat yourself with if you can't be entirely independent and
176
00:10:41,696 --> 00:10:44,912
self sufficient. Yeah, I mean, I get, you know, and I guess for
177
00:10:44,936 --> 00:10:48,152
some things that can come with how we connect
178
00:10:48,256 --> 00:10:52,112
with others, you know, I think some of those stories people carry about themselves as
179
00:10:52,136 --> 00:10:55,736
being needy or skiing too much, you know, might be about
180
00:10:55,888 --> 00:10:59,152
how they're with others rather than the very fact of
181
00:10:59,176 --> 00:11:02,624
being with others. And I
182
00:11:02,632 --> 00:11:07,140
think we also have to slightly watch out for, like, the cultural stories
183
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,128
of, you know, there is this way of being with others, and that's okay.
184
00:11:11,184 --> 00:11:15,232
And indeed, you know, for some people, less social
185
00:11:15,296 --> 00:11:18,448
contact suits them more, and then
186
00:11:18,504 --> 00:11:22,032
they feel potentially, or they get a message that they're somehow
187
00:11:22,056 --> 00:11:24,460
a failure, then they get punished for that.
188
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,616
One of the things that strikes me is going to keep coming up here.
189
00:11:27,648 --> 00:11:31,352
We probably address it at the outset, is the whole
190
00:11:31,456 --> 00:11:35,042
it depends answer. The kind of psychology
191
00:11:35,106 --> 00:11:38,626
that we're both into is one that
192
00:11:38,738 --> 00:11:42,730
really stresses the importance of context. Right. So there's
193
00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:46,466
nothing that's intrinsically right or wrong, nothing that's intrinsically good
194
00:11:46,498 --> 00:11:49,870
or bad, nothing that's intrinsically helpful or unhelpful,
195
00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:53,786
because it always depends on the context. That would be fair to say.
196
00:11:53,858 --> 00:11:57,990
Right. So, you know, there are going to be some people for whom,
197
00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:02,440
based on their history, based on their current circumstances,
198
00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:06,676
contact with others is something they really crave. And there's going to be other people
199
00:12:06,788 --> 00:12:10,604
for exactly the same reasons. Contact with others is something they desperately
200
00:12:10,652 --> 00:12:12,720
want to avoid. Absolutely.
201
00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:17,452
And it is a separate function of society and attitudes
202
00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:20,308
that then puts on this is a good thing, this is a bad thing,
203
00:12:20,364 --> 00:12:24,118
when actually what we can say is this is a thing that happens. Had an
204
00:12:24,134 --> 00:12:27,702
interesting conversation about what are the enduring messages of different
205
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:31,478
universal truths that we've learned from chemistry, from physics and so on.
206
00:12:31,574 --> 00:12:34,974
And then the slightly awkward question what the more universal truth that we've really
207
00:12:35,022 --> 00:12:39,530
learned from psychology, because, you know, most individual psychology theories,
208
00:12:39,830 --> 00:12:42,934
they're very popular for a while, and then we start thinking differently.
209
00:12:43,062 --> 00:12:46,614
Universal things that psychology does tell us is
210
00:12:46,782 --> 00:12:50,448
context matters. Sometimes people forget that that should be
211
00:12:50,464 --> 00:12:54,040
a basis of an understanding. It strikes me that we need to be careful about
212
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,648
this because there's a danger we're just going to agree about everything or
213
00:12:57,664 --> 00:13:01,416
we're just going to say it depends always in answer to every question,
214
00:13:01,608 --> 00:13:05,080
which feels like kind of the short version of every
215
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,620
psychology essay I wrote in my undergrad degree,
216
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,248
compare and contrast these two theories. Well, there's a bit of this, a bit of
217
00:13:12,264 --> 00:13:15,664
that. Are we going to end every podcast with further
218
00:13:15,712 --> 00:13:18,966
research is required? I think so, yeah. Like, yeah,
219
00:13:18,998 --> 00:13:21,886
like every single paper that you've ever read. Yeah. So we need to be careful
220
00:13:21,918 --> 00:13:25,286
about that. But, yeah, you know, at the risk of agreeing with you,
221
00:13:25,318 --> 00:13:28,766
I agree with you. There's some setting conditions, aren't there? I think,
222
00:13:28,838 --> 00:13:31,734
you know, human beings are intensely social,
223
00:13:31,902 --> 00:13:35,118
and at a basic level, you know, hanging out
224
00:13:35,134 --> 00:13:37,806
with other people is generally quite good for you. And I think if you think
225
00:13:37,838 --> 00:13:41,438
about what's the most aversive thing we do to people in prison is we put
226
00:13:41,454 --> 00:13:44,582
them in solitary confinement, right? Because it's just so horrible. It's the sort of
227
00:13:44,606 --> 00:13:47,910
ultimate sanction in the UK, anyway.
228
00:13:48,210 --> 00:13:51,466
I believe other countries have other ultimate sanctions, but in the UK,
229
00:13:51,538 --> 00:13:55,642
the ultimate sort of sanction is, you know, life in prison. And if
230
00:13:55,666 --> 00:13:59,282
you. If you behave badly there, then you are placed in
231
00:13:59,306 --> 00:14:02,450
solitary confinement because it's so aversive. Because just
232
00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:06,034
being on your own in a way that you can't control is horrible.
233
00:14:06,122 --> 00:14:09,762
But that doesn't mean, of course, that people might want to spend portions of
234
00:14:09,786 --> 00:14:13,074
time on their own. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, I would want
235
00:14:13,122 --> 00:14:16,810
people listening to this to definitely go away with the message that, like,
236
00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:20,354
everything's allowed, right? Everything is permissible and there's nothing
237
00:14:20,402 --> 00:14:24,082
wrong with you. If you are more introverted, you feel like
238
00:14:24,106 --> 00:14:27,090
someone who wants to spend more time alone, then there's nothing wrong with that,
239
00:14:27,130 --> 00:14:31,122
right? No, absolutely. You know, people get sources of
240
00:14:31,146 --> 00:14:34,738
fulfillment in. In quite different ways. And, you know, part of
241
00:14:34,754 --> 00:14:38,834
the it depends thing is, what's the definition of the worst
242
00:14:38,922 --> 00:14:42,008
of weekend you could have or the best weekend you could have? And depending on
243
00:14:42,024 --> 00:14:45,048
who you ask, it's probably Glastonbury. You know, some people,
244
00:14:45,144 --> 00:14:48,624
it's the best thing that they ever experience. And for some people,
245
00:14:48,672 --> 00:14:52,048
it's just a definition of hell. Where do you stand on
246
00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:55,776
this? Like, if I said to you, introvert, extrovert,
247
00:14:55,848 --> 00:14:58,872
what do you think you are? And you're not allowed to say, it. Depends,
248
00:14:58,976 --> 00:15:02,784
introvert who enjoys little bursts of extroversion.
249
00:15:02,872 --> 00:15:06,538
On your own terms? Yeah, on my own terms.
250
00:15:06,674 --> 00:15:10,202
I suppose the time when I'm most social is just because the kind of life
251
00:15:10,226 --> 00:15:13,730
I've lived at things like academic conferences and under those
252
00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:17,410
circumstances, I really enjoy being sort of in and around people.
253
00:15:17,530 --> 00:15:21,578
And after three or four days, I also intensely crave quiet
254
00:15:21,634 --> 00:15:25,226
and my own company. And I think. I think we've talked about this actually,
255
00:15:25,298 --> 00:15:29,114
you know, conference in an amazing place, surrounded by amazing
256
00:15:29,162 --> 00:15:32,718
people years ago. And I remember my last night there before I flew back.
257
00:15:32,774 --> 00:15:36,118
I sneaked off to go to the movies by myself just because I wanted
258
00:15:36,134 --> 00:15:39,998
to be on my own, even though I was surrounded by people who
259
00:15:40,014 --> 00:15:42,814
I care for deeply and really enjoy their company. So, yeah, there's a lot of
260
00:15:42,822 --> 00:15:46,526
me that's about, I think, being kind of basically quiet. And I do more
261
00:15:46,558 --> 00:15:50,406
extrovert things at times. What about you? Well, it's interesting.
262
00:15:50,558 --> 00:15:54,166
I'm a little similar to that, but I don't think I always was. I think
263
00:15:54,358 --> 00:15:58,044
that's something that's changed as I've got older. I. I think
264
00:15:58,132 --> 00:16:02,116
I used to position myself as the kind of life
265
00:16:02,148 --> 00:16:05,668
and soul of the party. Always sort of wanted to be the funniest,
266
00:16:05,764 --> 00:16:09,772
most engaging person in the room. And my need for doing
267
00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:13,548
that has drastically changed over the
268
00:16:13,604 --> 00:16:17,804
years. And I find myself more and more now craving
269
00:16:17,972 --> 00:16:21,480
quiet, peace, you know, a house in the country,
270
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:25,294
that kind of thing. Quiet walks with the dog.
271
00:16:25,382 --> 00:16:28,366
That's the sort of thing that seems to appeal to me more. And I.
272
00:16:28,438 --> 00:16:31,590
Yeah, it's interesting that. I wonder. I wonder if there's an aging.
273
00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:35,446
Well, there's a role for aging in all of that, that it changes
274
00:16:35,478 --> 00:16:38,942
over time, which comes back to the sort of whole context and it depends
275
00:16:39,046 --> 00:16:42,450
thing. I suppose, that it's not. It's not fixed, it's not static.
276
00:16:42,910 --> 00:16:46,310
Yeah. We are, I think, both lucky enough to have done some
277
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:50,136
interesting stuff in our time. And I don't know about you, but I get
278
00:16:50,168 --> 00:16:53,368
tired easier now, going back to the Glastonbury thing, one of the things,
279
00:16:53,424 --> 00:16:57,336
looking at it on the tv, it's exhausting. You know, some of that quiet life,
280
00:16:57,368 --> 00:17:00,760
even if it's, you know, good physical exercise, walking across the fields and stuff.
281
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,816
It's kind of different from the. Suppose the social energy. I've been to Glastonbury
282
00:17:04,848 --> 00:17:08,304
a number of times, and I first went in 1987,
283
00:17:08,392 --> 00:17:11,576
which will give you an idea of how old I might be. There's a part
284
00:17:11,608 --> 00:17:14,867
of me now I've become really curmudgeonly about it all.
285
00:17:14,983 --> 00:17:18,203
Like, I was on the BBC News app the other day, and one of the
286
00:17:18,251 --> 00:17:21,159
news items was Glastonbury Gates open.
287
00:17:21,619 --> 00:17:25,603
And that was it. Is that the news?
288
00:17:25,731 --> 00:17:29,679
Is that the news? Some gates have opened on a festival.
289
00:17:30,499 --> 00:17:34,227
It's become this really central sort
290
00:17:34,243 --> 00:17:38,039
of cultural point. Like, when I went, there was
291
00:17:38,699 --> 00:17:42,082
tv cameras there. There was no. There was none of the
292
00:17:42,106 --> 00:17:45,730
police there. There were no police. There was a traveler's
293
00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:48,802
field. Like, if you're a traveller, you could just get in for free.
294
00:17:48,986 --> 00:17:52,842
It was the Glasterbury CND festival. So the campaign for nuclear
295
00:17:52,866 --> 00:17:56,666
disarmament. If people are too young to remember that once
296
00:17:56,698 --> 00:17:58,834
it was gone, it was gone. Do you know what I mean? You were there
297
00:17:59,002 --> 00:18:02,258
and then it happened, and then it was finished. And,
298
00:18:02,354 --> 00:18:05,626
like, I can't find any. I've looked a couple times. I can't find any,
299
00:18:05,658 --> 00:18:09,286
like, videos of performances from
300
00:18:09,318 --> 00:18:12,750
back then. Do you know what I mean? And now I find myself being
301
00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:16,510
really old and curmudgeonly going like, what? Why is this wall to wall coverage
302
00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:20,398
of this thing now? It was something else back then. Now it's changed into something
303
00:18:20,494 --> 00:18:24,050
kind of very kind of corporate and mainstream.
304
00:18:24,430 --> 00:18:28,166
Yeah. And, yeah, produced. And you're
305
00:18:28,198 --> 00:18:31,170
right, I couldn't be asked to go anymore.
306
00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:35,134
It's just too much energy. I couldn't. I couldn't face
307
00:18:35,182 --> 00:18:38,870
the walk from the car to the tent. Know, that would be.
308
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:42,762
I just couldn't be bothered. I did watch a little bit
309
00:18:42,826 --> 00:18:45,986
on telly of a couple of Ghana artists I liked. And it was
310
00:18:46,018 --> 00:18:49,298
interesting that one of them was somebody I'd been to see a couple of times
311
00:18:49,394 --> 00:18:53,186
live. Paul Heaton. Yeah, I've actually been to gigs a few times just
312
00:18:53,218 --> 00:18:55,530
to watch him. And so, yeah, he was on there and it was a great
313
00:18:55,570 --> 00:18:58,218
set. Loads and lots of people there. And I was thinking, well, I had a
314
00:18:58,234 --> 00:19:02,250
much better experience when I just went to see him at Birmingham.
315
00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:05,592
And you did it, did a full set and then came home, slept in my
316
00:19:05,616 --> 00:19:09,048
own bed. Thank you. I mean, a stage further
317
00:19:09,104 --> 00:19:12,776
than that. I have now become my wife. We have become matinee
318
00:19:12,808 --> 00:19:16,064
people. So, you know, if we go to the. Or anything, if at all possible,
319
00:19:16,152 --> 00:19:19,808
we go to the matinee. Going into something like that during the afternoon feels
320
00:19:19,824 --> 00:19:23,456
like playing hooky. And then you come out at like, 05:00 it's really
321
00:19:23,488 --> 00:19:26,712
easy to find something to eat and you're not rushed before the
322
00:19:26,776 --> 00:19:29,728
curtain up. And then you drive home and you're sitting on your own sofa with
323
00:19:29,744 --> 00:19:32,438
a cup of tea by 08:00. I mean, it's just the dream life. In the
324
00:19:32,454 --> 00:19:35,542
fast lane, eh? So what are we going to take away from this conversation,
325
00:19:35,606 --> 00:19:39,606
then? So, connection, it's important. Life feels like,
326
00:19:39,718 --> 00:19:43,062
you know, a solitary life doesn't feel like a life that
327
00:19:43,206 --> 00:19:46,974
most of us would want to live. And it's kind of okay for some people.
328
00:19:47,102 --> 00:19:51,806
And so, yeah, depends. There's something kind of innately social
329
00:19:51,878 --> 00:19:55,326
about most of us. And for the vast majority of us, it's quite a
330
00:19:55,358 --> 00:19:58,678
drive, isn't there, to be with other people. And so,
331
00:19:58,774 --> 00:20:01,654
yeah, I guess the one thing I would want to reflect on is it's not
332
00:20:01,662 --> 00:20:05,186
a bad thing. Right? It's not. It's not a black mark against your
333
00:20:05,218 --> 00:20:08,554
character if you're being too needy. I don't think it's really a thing.
334
00:20:08,602 --> 00:20:11,762
Right. That's just being a human being.
335
00:20:11,866 --> 00:20:15,186
Nothing wrong with that. And not a fixed thing either,
336
00:20:15,338 --> 00:20:19,266
as your experience that you've just described kind
337
00:20:19,298 --> 00:20:22,578
of illustrates there that this may change over time
338
00:20:22,634 --> 00:20:26,314
and your desire to be around people, particularly large groups of people,
339
00:20:26,442 --> 00:20:30,078
may change. Absolutely. And it's not, as you say, it's neither a
340
00:20:30,094 --> 00:20:33,222
good thing nor a bad. Thing, it's just a thing. And. And I
341
00:20:33,246 --> 00:20:36,718
think it does also play out in how we think about
342
00:20:36,774 --> 00:20:39,782
things. And we can do some of that in the privacy of our own heads.
343
00:20:39,926 --> 00:20:43,462
My experience is that things move forward for me, most in my thinking,
344
00:20:43,526 --> 00:20:46,718
often when I'm talking to another person, perspective is to shift or develop.
345
00:20:46,814 --> 00:20:50,310
Not necessarily just I ditch my idea and take theirs,
346
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:53,806
but my own view of it begins to develop. Okay,
347
00:20:53,878 --> 00:20:56,910
so one regular feature that we're going to have on this
348
00:20:57,030 --> 00:21:00,582
show is that I'm going to throw a question
349
00:21:00,646 --> 00:21:05,294
at you and in a feature that is going to be known as let's
350
00:21:05,342 --> 00:21:09,334
ask Ray, shall we? This is a tribute in some
351
00:21:09,382 --> 00:21:12,958
part to wonderful film Mike Lee film from years
352
00:21:12,974 --> 00:21:16,566
ago, nuts in May. And my mate Rufus, whenever we talk
353
00:21:16,598 --> 00:21:19,974
about you, he shouts out, let's go and ask Ray,
354
00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:23,702
shall we? Now, I didn't have a lot of time to really.
355
00:21:23,806 --> 00:21:26,166
Well, I. Well, I did. I'm lying. I had a lot of time to think
356
00:21:26,198 --> 00:21:28,910
about it. I just didn't think of anything kind of pertinent.
357
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:32,446
So I've borrowed a question from an old five
358
00:21:32,518 --> 00:21:35,726
live show, BBC show, that I used to listen to
359
00:21:35,758 --> 00:21:39,278
a lot. And I've always sort of wanted an opportunity to ask this question
360
00:21:39,334 --> 00:21:42,678
to somebody. So this is it. So here it comes.
361
00:21:42,814 --> 00:21:45,450
You're having a sausage sandwich. Red sauce,
362
00:21:45,910 --> 00:21:50,220
brown sauce or no sauce at all? Brown sauce,
363
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,620
definitely. It's the only semi sauce. I need to ask you about why?
364
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,232
I've had a lot of time to think about this. I too, a big fan
365
00:21:58,256 --> 00:22:01,144
of the Danny Baker show that it originated. I mean,
366
00:22:01,192 --> 00:22:04,744
red sauce with bacon. Sweetness goes quite well with bacon,
367
00:22:04,792 --> 00:22:08,248
but I think sausage needs a little bit sour, sort of vinegary flavour.
368
00:22:08,384 --> 00:22:11,784
Otherwise it can. It needs something to cut through the sort of slight
369
00:22:11,912 --> 00:22:15,618
oily fattiness of the sausage. And so for
370
00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:19,994
that reason, definitely ground sauce. Well, I wasn't expecting
371
00:22:20,042 --> 00:22:24,050
such an informed answer to that. You've really thought about the nuances
372
00:22:24,130 --> 00:22:27,470
and the tastes and everything that's involved here.
373
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:32,590
These things are important. Okay, well, on that bombshell,
374
00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:35,710
we'll leave it there. Thanks, Ray. See you next time.
00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,566
Okay, recording. So here we are. I am here
2
00:00:15,638 --> 00:00:19,678
with my good friend Ray Owen. Ray, do you want to introduce yourself?
3
00:00:19,814 --> 00:00:22,870
Who are you? Who the hell are you? Who the hell am I?
4
00:00:22,910 --> 00:00:26,422
That's a question I ask myself often. Who the hell am I to dot
5
00:00:26,446 --> 00:00:30,382
dot dot dot dot? And the answer is yeah, I'm Ray Owen. I am,
6
00:00:30,526 --> 00:00:34,662
I guess, many things. Part of the context of being here is
7
00:00:34,726 --> 00:00:38,318
I'm a psychologist and you
8
00:00:38,334 --> 00:00:42,170
and I, rich, have known each other for ten years. Is it?
9
00:00:42,590 --> 00:00:45,798
I'm gonna say eleven. Gosh. Gosh.
10
00:00:45,934 --> 00:00:49,262
Given that, although actually we work with slightly different groups
11
00:00:49,286 --> 00:00:52,486
of people, we both share this
12
00:00:52,598 --> 00:00:56,370
common way of, of working with people. It's kind of common psychological
13
00:00:56,410 --> 00:00:59,842
approach. That's how we got to know each other. So I guess that means that
14
00:00:59,866 --> 00:01:03,418
you've got to introduce yourself. Rich probably should. Yeah. So my
15
00:01:03,434 --> 00:01:07,322
name's Rich. Yeah. I work as a clinical psychologist and cognitive
16
00:01:07,386 --> 00:01:11,430
behavioral psychotherapist and I
17
00:01:11,890 --> 00:01:15,666
met you at a conference, I think
18
00:01:15,698 --> 00:01:19,274
it was the first UK conference
19
00:01:19,362 --> 00:01:22,698
for acceptance and commitment therapy, which is I
20
00:01:22,714 --> 00:01:26,398
guess, a type of therapy that we probably have in common. Right.
21
00:01:26,594 --> 00:01:30,854
We both subscribe to that way of thinking. Probably influences us
22
00:01:30,902 --> 00:01:34,094
personally and professionally and. Yeah, that's, I think,
23
00:01:34,142 --> 00:01:37,686
where we met, actually. We met, I know exactly where we met. We met
24
00:01:37,798 --> 00:01:41,206
in. I mean, this is going to sound really weird to anyone outside of
25
00:01:41,238 --> 00:01:44,686
these professional circles. We met whilst
26
00:01:44,838 --> 00:01:48,246
making some sort of body sculpture of the
27
00:01:48,278 --> 00:01:51,926
UK. Do you remember that? Was that. Oh, was that
28
00:01:51,958 --> 00:01:54,412
the first time? Oh yeah,
29
00:01:54,516 --> 00:01:58,380
yeah. So trying to find out how many people at
30
00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,900
this conference were from like different areas or whether people that have
31
00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:04,820
knew each other. Yes. We did this sort of thing where we had a big
32
00:02:04,860 --> 00:02:09,036
space in a room and got everybody to move to like an imagined map and
33
00:02:09,068 --> 00:02:12,092
worked out that quite a few of us were sort of in the Midlands of
34
00:02:12,116 --> 00:02:15,364
England. That's right, yeah. So we ended up kind of
35
00:02:15,412 --> 00:02:19,196
standing next to each other because, yeah, in this
36
00:02:19,388 --> 00:02:23,012
imagined version of the UK, we were, we were kind of. We were
37
00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:26,256
geographically located fairly closely, weren't we?
38
00:02:26,448 --> 00:02:30,056
Yeah, yeah, just, yeah, I mean, we probably live about 45
39
00:02:30,088 --> 00:02:33,856
minutes from each other, but in terms of clusters
40
00:02:33,888 --> 00:02:36,940
of population. Yeah, absolutely. Very close.
41
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,928
I often think about working as a psychologist. There are,
42
00:02:42,064 --> 00:02:45,360
you know, there are moments in your life, probably wherever you work, whoever you are,
43
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,584
there's moments in your life where you find yourself in a situation and
44
00:02:48,592 --> 00:02:52,848
you think, what sort of choices did I make that
45
00:02:52,864 --> 00:02:55,960
have brought me to this moment where I'm
46
00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,220
making some kind of weird body sculpture of the UK?
47
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,872
Nevertheless, that's what happened, and we met each
48
00:03:02,896 --> 00:03:06,700
other then, and we've stayed firm friends and colleagues ever since.
49
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,224
And so when this
50
00:03:10,272 --> 00:03:15,080
idea of making a podcast came to my consciousness,
51
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,352
you were the first person I thought of in terms of who would I like
52
00:03:18,376 --> 00:03:21,892
to do this with? Very touched that that
53
00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,520
was your first response.
54
00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:28,012
Well, there we are. We'll see. We'll see,
55
00:03:28,036 --> 00:03:30,860
won't we? Whether that turns out to have been a good decision or not.
56
00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:34,452
But. So why are we here? We should probably say something about why we're here,
57
00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,964
what we're doing. Absolutely. Absolutely. Why are
58
00:03:37,972 --> 00:03:41,236
you here? Why are you here? Why are we here? Well, I think
59
00:03:41,268 --> 00:03:44,644
I'm here in order to. Well, in order to have
60
00:03:44,652 --> 00:03:47,860
a conversation with a friend, but a conversation with a friend
61
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,512
that's kind of about some fairly
62
00:03:51,656 --> 00:03:55,416
broad issues of life, then it's based on the
63
00:03:55,448 --> 00:03:58,608
fact that two of us come, I suppose, some similar
64
00:03:58,664 --> 00:04:02,300
perspectives. Thinking about working in psychology,
65
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,776
I think it kind of does influence how you end up reacting to stuff.
66
00:04:05,808 --> 00:04:09,328
Doesn't mean, you know, you're seeing things clearer or you're seeing things better,
67
00:04:09,384 --> 00:04:12,722
but maybe that's something that be interesting for the two of us to
68
00:04:12,746 --> 00:04:16,586
talk about. We should probably address the title, shouldn't we? And I think
69
00:04:16,658 --> 00:04:20,050
that's. That was our plan, to address the title of this podcast over the.
70
00:04:20,090 --> 00:04:23,866
Over the next few episodes. But firstly, we wanted to address this idea
71
00:04:23,898 --> 00:04:26,858
of two. Yeah. Because I thought when I.
72
00:04:26,874 --> 00:04:30,154
When I had this idea that I would. I'd like to do something a bit
73
00:04:30,202 --> 00:04:33,274
different. This is part of aging, I think,
74
00:04:33,322 --> 00:04:36,802
and part of wanting to broaden
75
00:04:36,826 --> 00:04:40,510
your horizons, keep doing things that are new and challenging.
76
00:04:40,890 --> 00:04:44,866
I definitely didn't want to do it on my own. Right. I didn't
77
00:04:44,898 --> 00:04:48,418
want to sit and do a monologue. And, you know,
78
00:04:48,434 --> 00:04:52,154
having been involved in various other projects,
79
00:04:52,322 --> 00:04:56,090
I've never done a podcast before, not properly.
80
00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:58,590
I've been in a guest on one or two.
81
00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:02,146
I did not want to sit in front of a microphone doing a monologue.
82
00:05:02,178 --> 00:05:05,242
So the first thing that really came to my mind was, who could I do
83
00:05:05,266 --> 00:05:08,970
this with? Who could I connect with? How could
84
00:05:09,010 --> 00:05:12,874
I contribute something kind of meaningful and hopefully
85
00:05:12,922 --> 00:05:16,578
interesting to the world? And definitely had
86
00:05:16,594 --> 00:05:19,682
the idea that I didn't want to do that on my own. I heard it
87
00:05:19,706 --> 00:05:23,218
said just recently that, you know, in the old days, a couple
88
00:05:23,234 --> 00:05:26,418
of middle aged blokes decided they wanted to do something different. They'd have
89
00:05:26,434 --> 00:05:29,970
formed a band, and now they start doing a podcast.
90
00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:33,618
So, you know, I mean, we're both sort of amateur musicians as well,
91
00:05:33,794 --> 00:05:35,914
so we could have gone the other route we could have in a band,
92
00:05:35,962 --> 00:05:40,364
but we decided to do a podcast of two old
93
00:05:40,492 --> 00:05:44,160
psychologists talking about stuff, talking about life.
94
00:05:44,660 --> 00:05:47,756
Yeah, I feel like this is probably the lesser of those
95
00:05:47,788 --> 00:05:51,452
two evils, if I'm honest. I'm not sure anyone wants
96
00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,200
to listen to the kind of music that we would make now.
97
00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:58,788
Do you think we need to address the great big old
98
00:05:58,924 --> 00:06:02,132
white male elephant in the room? Do you
99
00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:05,090
think we should just say something about that? Yeah,
100
00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:08,990
absolutely. I remember when I first floated this
101
00:06:09,030 --> 00:06:13,050
idea to you. We were in a pub, and you looked at me
102
00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:16,766
with a look that I can only sort of describe
103
00:06:16,798 --> 00:06:18,890
as, I don't know, it was contempt.
104
00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:22,846
Disdain. Like I was asking for
105
00:06:22,878 --> 00:06:26,470
something terrible. You know, I'd made some awful social faux pas.
106
00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:29,630
And you said something like, as if there aren't enough white,
107
00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:32,918
middle class men making podcasts. You know, almost like
108
00:06:32,934 --> 00:06:34,990
the last thing you would want to do is kind of add to that great
109
00:06:35,030 --> 00:06:38,718
big heap of detritus that's out there already. Yeah.
110
00:06:38,814 --> 00:06:43,010
Yeah. And I remember the second question being my wife
111
00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:47,502
saying to your partner, Rich, had he already asked you and you've
112
00:06:47,526 --> 00:06:51,290
turned him down? And her saying, nope, he hasn't asked me.
113
00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:54,790
I think, and maybe this is one of the things about
114
00:06:54,830 --> 00:06:58,078
getting older, I think I've probably gone a little bit past
115
00:06:58,134 --> 00:07:01,524
the point of feeling like I have to apologize about just
116
00:07:01,572 --> 00:07:04,892
being who I am. You know, it was. It wasn't of my choosing. I didn't
117
00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:08,516
choose to be born. I didn't choose to be born white or
118
00:07:08,548 --> 00:07:12,620
male. I like to think for as much as I'm sensitive,
119
00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:15,560
and I think it's important to be so,
120
00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:19,732
particularly when you kind of, you know, perhaps belong to the group
121
00:07:19,836 --> 00:07:23,012
that's enjoyed a lot of power and privilege
122
00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,828
in society, I, you know, at the same time, I don't think I need to
123
00:07:26,844 --> 00:07:30,582
apologize for it. And I think that we
124
00:07:30,646 --> 00:07:34,366
have probably both got something interesting to say, irrespective of the fact
125
00:07:34,398 --> 00:07:38,582
that we represent a somewhat limited demographic, don't we?
126
00:07:38,766 --> 00:07:42,766
Yeah. The context of this is us choosing to do
127
00:07:42,918 --> 00:07:47,006
a podcast which people can listen to, not listen to. And I
128
00:07:47,038 --> 00:07:50,534
know because we've both been in this situation, there are other contexts
129
00:07:50,582 --> 00:07:54,206
where perhaps we're both involved in presenting things at
130
00:07:54,238 --> 00:07:57,646
academic conference, you know, where you would
131
00:07:57,718 --> 00:08:01,758
say, you're putting together a group of people, and there we would very intentionally
132
00:08:01,814 --> 00:08:05,150
say, absolutely no way that we're going to do this panel,
133
00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:09,010
just all men. If we found ourselves on the verge of that happening,
134
00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:13,166
I think under those circumstances, you'd say, well, that's a different kind of setting,
135
00:08:13,358 --> 00:08:16,570
different sorts of responsibilities and different sort of
136
00:08:16,990 --> 00:08:20,102
drivers to get other sorts of perspectives in. No,
137
00:08:20,126 --> 00:08:23,726
I think that's fair. And I think, yeah, there's a big, wide world
138
00:08:23,758 --> 00:08:27,286
out there, lots to choose from. This is just one option, isn't it? Okay,
139
00:08:27,358 --> 00:08:31,182
so that said, the question I think that's on my mind here
140
00:08:31,366 --> 00:08:35,230
is that why was my first intuition
141
00:08:35,350 --> 00:08:38,102
to think about, who am I going to do this with?
142
00:08:38,246 --> 00:08:41,438
Why do you think connection is so important? Why do you think
143
00:08:41,494 --> 00:08:45,310
hanging out with other human beings is so important? I mean,
144
00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:49,062
it's easy to come out with kind of the
145
00:08:49,086 --> 00:08:52,528
first response that's sort
146
00:08:52,544 --> 00:08:55,936
of my background and my work puts into my mouth,
147
00:08:56,128 --> 00:08:59,260
which is to say something like, by and large,
148
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,192
humans are a social species. You know, we often say,
149
00:09:03,216 --> 00:09:06,856
don't we? Humans are a bit of a campfire species. We don't. We're not,
150
00:09:06,928 --> 00:09:09,304
you know, we don't have armor, we don't have claws, we don't have wings.
151
00:09:09,352 --> 00:09:12,208
Those are survival benefits this species has.
152
00:09:12,384 --> 00:09:16,032
We do seem to survive better in groups back
153
00:09:16,056 --> 00:09:19,536
in our evolutionary history. Probably survived in small tribes,
154
00:09:19,608 --> 00:09:21,968
campfires, keeping each other safe.
155
00:09:22,144 --> 00:09:25,752
So that being the case, you know, we're all
156
00:09:25,776 --> 00:09:29,256
the descendants of the ones who fitted in to that because the others
157
00:09:29,408 --> 00:09:33,608
kicked out of the tribe and got eaten by the wolves. So I
158
00:09:33,624 --> 00:09:37,416
guess, from my point of view, kind of suggests that we
159
00:09:37,528 --> 00:09:41,368
feel safer with other humans. I don't know if it's been your experience,
160
00:09:41,464 --> 00:09:45,472
but I think I've encountered people sort of through my professional
161
00:09:45,656 --> 00:09:49,968
life. And I think I've been guilty of this myself sometimes
162
00:09:50,024 --> 00:09:54,072
as almost talking about the need for
163
00:09:54,136 --> 00:09:57,680
connection with others as being a problem. Like it somehow
164
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,100
reflects badly on me. So I've heard people say things like,
165
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,200
I'm just so needy, or I worry
166
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,232
about being a burden. So it's interesting, isn't it,
167
00:10:08,256 --> 00:10:12,156
that because I think I would agree with you that it
168
00:10:12,188 --> 00:10:15,396
feels like an innate kind of drive, doesn't it? It feels
169
00:10:15,428 --> 00:10:18,892
like this is just the kind of species that we are.
170
00:10:19,076 --> 00:10:22,532
We like hanging out together, we like communing with each other,
171
00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:26,300
we like sitting around a campfire, breaking bread, all of those kinds of
172
00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:30,260
ways of talking about it. And yet there is also this
173
00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:34,412
thing that seems to persist about this idea that it's somehow a bad
174
00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:38,052
thing or that you could use it as a stick to
175
00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,672
beat yourself with if you can't be entirely independent and
176
00:10:41,696 --> 00:10:44,912
self sufficient. Yeah, I mean, I get, you know, and I guess for
177
00:10:44,936 --> 00:10:48,152
some things that can come with how we connect
178
00:10:48,256 --> 00:10:52,112
with others, you know, I think some of those stories people carry about themselves as
179
00:10:52,136 --> 00:10:55,736
being needy or skiing too much, you know, might be about
180
00:10:55,888 --> 00:10:59,152
how they're with others rather than the very fact of
181
00:10:59,176 --> 00:11:02,624
being with others. And I
182
00:11:02,632 --> 00:11:07,140
think we also have to slightly watch out for, like, the cultural stories
183
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,128
of, you know, there is this way of being with others, and that's okay.
184
00:11:11,184 --> 00:11:15,232
And indeed, you know, for some people, less social
185
00:11:15,296 --> 00:11:18,448
contact suits them more, and then
186
00:11:18,504 --> 00:11:22,032
they feel potentially, or they get a message that they're somehow
187
00:11:22,056 --> 00:11:24,460
a failure, then they get punished for that.
188
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,616
One of the things that strikes me is going to keep coming up here.
189
00:11:27,648 --> 00:11:31,352
We probably address it at the outset, is the whole
190
00:11:31,456 --> 00:11:35,042
it depends answer. The kind of psychology
191
00:11:35,106 --> 00:11:38,626
that we're both into is one that
192
00:11:38,738 --> 00:11:42,730
really stresses the importance of context. Right. So there's
193
00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:46,466
nothing that's intrinsically right or wrong, nothing that's intrinsically good
194
00:11:46,498 --> 00:11:49,870
or bad, nothing that's intrinsically helpful or unhelpful,
195
00:11:50,450 --> 00:11:53,786
because it always depends on the context. That would be fair to say.
196
00:11:53,858 --> 00:11:57,990
Right. So, you know, there are going to be some people for whom,
197
00:11:58,460 --> 00:12:02,440
based on their history, based on their current circumstances,
198
00:12:03,300 --> 00:12:06,676
contact with others is something they really crave. And there's going to be other people
199
00:12:06,788 --> 00:12:10,604
for exactly the same reasons. Contact with others is something they desperately
200
00:12:10,652 --> 00:12:12,720
want to avoid. Absolutely.
201
00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:17,452
And it is a separate function of society and attitudes
202
00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:20,308
that then puts on this is a good thing, this is a bad thing,
203
00:12:20,364 --> 00:12:24,118
when actually what we can say is this is a thing that happens. Had an
204
00:12:24,134 --> 00:12:27,702
interesting conversation about what are the enduring messages of different
205
00:12:27,766 --> 00:12:31,478
universal truths that we've learned from chemistry, from physics and so on.
206
00:12:31,574 --> 00:12:34,974
And then the slightly awkward question what the more universal truth that we've really
207
00:12:35,022 --> 00:12:39,530
learned from psychology, because, you know, most individual psychology theories,
208
00:12:39,830 --> 00:12:42,934
they're very popular for a while, and then we start thinking differently.
209
00:12:43,062 --> 00:12:46,614
Universal things that psychology does tell us is
210
00:12:46,782 --> 00:12:50,448
context matters. Sometimes people forget that that should be
211
00:12:50,464 --> 00:12:54,040
a basis of an understanding. It strikes me that we need to be careful about
212
00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,648
this because there's a danger we're just going to agree about everything or
213
00:12:57,664 --> 00:13:01,416
we're just going to say it depends always in answer to every question,
214
00:13:01,608 --> 00:13:05,080
which feels like kind of the short version of every
215
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,620
psychology essay I wrote in my undergrad degree,
216
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,248
compare and contrast these two theories. Well, there's a bit of this, a bit of
217
00:13:12,264 --> 00:13:15,664
that. Are we going to end every podcast with further
218
00:13:15,712 --> 00:13:18,966
research is required? I think so, yeah. Like, yeah,
219
00:13:18,998 --> 00:13:21,886
like every single paper that you've ever read. Yeah. So we need to be careful
220
00:13:21,918 --> 00:13:25,286
about that. But, yeah, you know, at the risk of agreeing with you,
221
00:13:25,318 --> 00:13:28,766
I agree with you. There's some setting conditions, aren't there? I think,
222
00:13:28,838 --> 00:13:31,734
you know, human beings are intensely social,
223
00:13:31,902 --> 00:13:35,118
and at a basic level, you know, hanging out
224
00:13:35,134 --> 00:13:37,806
with other people is generally quite good for you. And I think if you think
225
00:13:37,838 --> 00:13:41,438
about what's the most aversive thing we do to people in prison is we put
226
00:13:41,454 --> 00:13:44,582
them in solitary confinement, right? Because it's just so horrible. It's the sort of
227
00:13:44,606 --> 00:13:47,910
ultimate sanction in the UK, anyway.
228
00:13:48,210 --> 00:13:51,466
I believe other countries have other ultimate sanctions, but in the UK,
229
00:13:51,538 --> 00:13:55,642
the ultimate sort of sanction is, you know, life in prison. And if
230
00:13:55,666 --> 00:13:59,282
you. If you behave badly there, then you are placed in
231
00:13:59,306 --> 00:14:02,450
solitary confinement because it's so aversive. Because just
232
00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:06,034
being on your own in a way that you can't control is horrible.
233
00:14:06,122 --> 00:14:09,762
But that doesn't mean, of course, that people might want to spend portions of
234
00:14:09,786 --> 00:14:13,074
time on their own. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, I would want
235
00:14:13,122 --> 00:14:16,810
people listening to this to definitely go away with the message that, like,
236
00:14:16,850 --> 00:14:20,354
everything's allowed, right? Everything is permissible and there's nothing
237
00:14:20,402 --> 00:14:24,082
wrong with you. If you are more introverted, you feel like
238
00:14:24,106 --> 00:14:27,090
someone who wants to spend more time alone, then there's nothing wrong with that,
239
00:14:27,130 --> 00:14:31,122
right? No, absolutely. You know, people get sources of
240
00:14:31,146 --> 00:14:34,738
fulfillment in. In quite different ways. And, you know, part of
241
00:14:34,754 --> 00:14:38,834
the it depends thing is, what's the definition of the worst
242
00:14:38,922 --> 00:14:42,008
of weekend you could have or the best weekend you could have? And depending on
243
00:14:42,024 --> 00:14:45,048
who you ask, it's probably Glastonbury. You know, some people,
244
00:14:45,144 --> 00:14:48,624
it's the best thing that they ever experience. And for some people,
245
00:14:48,672 --> 00:14:52,048
it's just a definition of hell. Where do you stand on
246
00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:55,776
this? Like, if I said to you, introvert, extrovert,
247
00:14:55,848 --> 00:14:58,872
what do you think you are? And you're not allowed to say, it. Depends,
248
00:14:58,976 --> 00:15:02,784
introvert who enjoys little bursts of extroversion.
249
00:15:02,872 --> 00:15:06,538
On your own terms? Yeah, on my own terms.
250
00:15:06,674 --> 00:15:10,202
I suppose the time when I'm most social is just because the kind of life
251
00:15:10,226 --> 00:15:13,730
I've lived at things like academic conferences and under those
252
00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:17,410
circumstances, I really enjoy being sort of in and around people.
253
00:15:17,530 --> 00:15:21,578
And after three or four days, I also intensely crave quiet
254
00:15:21,634 --> 00:15:25,226
and my own company. And I think. I think we've talked about this actually,
255
00:15:25,298 --> 00:15:29,114
you know, conference in an amazing place, surrounded by amazing
256
00:15:29,162 --> 00:15:32,718
people years ago. And I remember my last night there before I flew back.
257
00:15:32,774 --> 00:15:36,118
I sneaked off to go to the movies by myself just because I wanted
258
00:15:36,134 --> 00:15:39,998
to be on my own, even though I was surrounded by people who
259
00:15:40,014 --> 00:15:42,814
I care for deeply and really enjoy their company. So, yeah, there's a lot of
260
00:15:42,822 --> 00:15:46,526
me that's about, I think, being kind of basically quiet. And I do more
261
00:15:46,558 --> 00:15:50,406
extrovert things at times. What about you? Well, it's interesting.
262
00:15:50,558 --> 00:15:54,166
I'm a little similar to that, but I don't think I always was. I think
263
00:15:54,358 --> 00:15:58,044
that's something that's changed as I've got older. I. I think
264
00:15:58,132 --> 00:16:02,116
I used to position myself as the kind of life
265
00:16:02,148 --> 00:16:05,668
and soul of the party. Always sort of wanted to be the funniest,
266
00:16:05,764 --> 00:16:09,772
most engaging person in the room. And my need for doing
267
00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:13,548
that has drastically changed over the
268
00:16:13,604 --> 00:16:17,804
years. And I find myself more and more now craving
269
00:16:17,972 --> 00:16:21,480
quiet, peace, you know, a house in the country,
270
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:25,294
that kind of thing. Quiet walks with the dog.
271
00:16:25,382 --> 00:16:28,366
That's the sort of thing that seems to appeal to me more. And I.
272
00:16:28,438 --> 00:16:31,590
Yeah, it's interesting that. I wonder. I wonder if there's an aging.
273
00:16:31,710 --> 00:16:35,446
Well, there's a role for aging in all of that, that it changes
274
00:16:35,478 --> 00:16:38,942
over time, which comes back to the sort of whole context and it depends
275
00:16:39,046 --> 00:16:42,450
thing. I suppose, that it's not. It's not fixed, it's not static.
276
00:16:42,910 --> 00:16:46,310
Yeah. We are, I think, both lucky enough to have done some
277
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:50,136
interesting stuff in our time. And I don't know about you, but I get
278
00:16:50,168 --> 00:16:53,368
tired easier now, going back to the Glastonbury thing, one of the things,
279
00:16:53,424 --> 00:16:57,336
looking at it on the tv, it's exhausting. You know, some of that quiet life,
280
00:16:57,368 --> 00:17:00,760
even if it's, you know, good physical exercise, walking across the fields and stuff.
281
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,816
It's kind of different from the. Suppose the social energy. I've been to Glastonbury
282
00:17:04,848 --> 00:17:08,304
a number of times, and I first went in 1987,
283
00:17:08,392 --> 00:17:11,576
which will give you an idea of how old I might be. There's a part
284
00:17:11,608 --> 00:17:14,867
of me now I've become really curmudgeonly about it all.
285
00:17:14,983 --> 00:17:18,203
Like, I was on the BBC News app the other day, and one of the
286
00:17:18,251 --> 00:17:21,159
news items was Glastonbury Gates open.
287
00:17:21,619 --> 00:17:25,603
And that was it. Is that the news?
288
00:17:25,731 --> 00:17:29,679
Is that the news? Some gates have opened on a festival.
289
00:17:30,499 --> 00:17:34,227
It's become this really central sort
290
00:17:34,243 --> 00:17:38,039
of cultural point. Like, when I went, there was
291
00:17:38,699 --> 00:17:42,082
tv cameras there. There was no. There was none of the
292
00:17:42,106 --> 00:17:45,730
police there. There were no police. There was a traveler's
293
00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:48,802
field. Like, if you're a traveller, you could just get in for free.
294
00:17:48,986 --> 00:17:52,842
It was the Glasterbury CND festival. So the campaign for nuclear
295
00:17:52,866 --> 00:17:56,666
disarmament. If people are too young to remember that once
296
00:17:56,698 --> 00:17:58,834
it was gone, it was gone. Do you know what I mean? You were there
297
00:17:59,002 --> 00:18:02,258
and then it happened, and then it was finished. And,
298
00:18:02,354 --> 00:18:05,626
like, I can't find any. I've looked a couple times. I can't find any,
299
00:18:05,658 --> 00:18:09,286
like, videos of performances from
300
00:18:09,318 --> 00:18:12,750
back then. Do you know what I mean? And now I find myself being
301
00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:16,510
really old and curmudgeonly going like, what? Why is this wall to wall coverage
302
00:18:16,550 --> 00:18:20,398
of this thing now? It was something else back then. Now it's changed into something
303
00:18:20,494 --> 00:18:24,050
kind of very kind of corporate and mainstream.
304
00:18:24,430 --> 00:18:28,166
Yeah. And, yeah, produced. And you're
305
00:18:28,198 --> 00:18:31,170
right, I couldn't be asked to go anymore.
306
00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:35,134
It's just too much energy. I couldn't. I couldn't face
307
00:18:35,182 --> 00:18:38,870
the walk from the car to the tent. Know, that would be.
308
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:42,762
I just couldn't be bothered. I did watch a little bit
309
00:18:42,826 --> 00:18:45,986
on telly of a couple of Ghana artists I liked. And it was
310
00:18:46,018 --> 00:18:49,298
interesting that one of them was somebody I'd been to see a couple of times
311
00:18:49,394 --> 00:18:53,186
live. Paul Heaton. Yeah, I've actually been to gigs a few times just
312
00:18:53,218 --> 00:18:55,530
to watch him. And so, yeah, he was on there and it was a great
313
00:18:55,570 --> 00:18:58,218
set. Loads and lots of people there. And I was thinking, well, I had a
314
00:18:58,234 --> 00:19:02,250
much better experience when I just went to see him at Birmingham.
315
00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:05,592
And you did it, did a full set and then came home, slept in my
316
00:19:05,616 --> 00:19:09,048
own bed. Thank you. I mean, a stage further
317
00:19:09,104 --> 00:19:12,776
than that. I have now become my wife. We have become matinee
318
00:19:12,808 --> 00:19:16,064
people. So, you know, if we go to the. Or anything, if at all possible,
319
00:19:16,152 --> 00:19:19,808
we go to the matinee. Going into something like that during the afternoon feels
320
00:19:19,824 --> 00:19:23,456
like playing hooky. And then you come out at like, 05:00 it's really
321
00:19:23,488 --> 00:19:26,712
easy to find something to eat and you're not rushed before the
322
00:19:26,776 --> 00:19:29,728
curtain up. And then you drive home and you're sitting on your own sofa with
323
00:19:29,744 --> 00:19:32,438
a cup of tea by 08:00. I mean, it's just the dream life. In the
324
00:19:32,454 --> 00:19:35,542
fast lane, eh? So what are we going to take away from this conversation,
325
00:19:35,606 --> 00:19:39,606
then? So, connection, it's important. Life feels like,
326
00:19:39,718 --> 00:19:43,062
you know, a solitary life doesn't feel like a life that
327
00:19:43,206 --> 00:19:46,974
most of us would want to live. And it's kind of okay for some people.
328
00:19:47,102 --> 00:19:51,806
And so, yeah, depends. There's something kind of innately social
329
00:19:51,878 --> 00:19:55,326
about most of us. And for the vast majority of us, it's quite a
330
00:19:55,358 --> 00:19:58,678
drive, isn't there, to be with other people. And so,
331
00:19:58,774 --> 00:20:01,654
yeah, I guess the one thing I would want to reflect on is it's not
332
00:20:01,662 --> 00:20:05,186
a bad thing. Right? It's not. It's not a black mark against your
333
00:20:05,218 --> 00:20:08,554
character if you're being too needy. I don't think it's really a thing.
334
00:20:08,602 --> 00:20:11,762
Right. That's just being a human being.
335
00:20:11,866 --> 00:20:15,186
Nothing wrong with that. And not a fixed thing either,
336
00:20:15,338 --> 00:20:19,266
as your experience that you've just described kind
337
00:20:19,298 --> 00:20:22,578
of illustrates there that this may change over time
338
00:20:22,634 --> 00:20:26,314
and your desire to be around people, particularly large groups of people,
339
00:20:26,442 --> 00:20:30,078
may change. Absolutely. And it's not, as you say, it's neither a
340
00:20:30,094 --> 00:20:33,222
good thing nor a bad. Thing, it's just a thing. And. And I
341
00:20:33,246 --> 00:20:36,718
think it does also play out in how we think about
342
00:20:36,774 --> 00:20:39,782
things. And we can do some of that in the privacy of our own heads.
343
00:20:39,926 --> 00:20:43,462
My experience is that things move forward for me, most in my thinking,
344
00:20:43,526 --> 00:20:46,718
often when I'm talking to another person, perspective is to shift or develop.
345
00:20:46,814 --> 00:20:50,310
Not necessarily just I ditch my idea and take theirs,
346
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:53,806
but my own view of it begins to develop. Okay,
347
00:20:53,878 --> 00:20:56,910
so one regular feature that we're going to have on this
348
00:20:57,030 --> 00:21:00,582
show is that I'm going to throw a question
349
00:21:00,646 --> 00:21:05,294
at you and in a feature that is going to be known as let's
350
00:21:05,342 --> 00:21:09,334
ask Ray, shall we? This is a tribute in some
351
00:21:09,382 --> 00:21:12,958
part to wonderful film Mike Lee film from years
352
00:21:12,974 --> 00:21:16,566
ago, nuts in May. And my mate Rufus, whenever we talk
353
00:21:16,598 --> 00:21:19,974
about you, he shouts out, let's go and ask Ray,
354
00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:23,702
shall we? Now, I didn't have a lot of time to really.
355
00:21:23,806 --> 00:21:26,166
Well, I. Well, I did. I'm lying. I had a lot of time to think
356
00:21:26,198 --> 00:21:28,910
about it. I just didn't think of anything kind of pertinent.
357
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:32,446
So I've borrowed a question from an old five
358
00:21:32,518 --> 00:21:35,726
live show, BBC show, that I used to listen to
359
00:21:35,758 --> 00:21:39,278
a lot. And I've always sort of wanted an opportunity to ask this question
360
00:21:39,334 --> 00:21:42,678
to somebody. So this is it. So here it comes.
361
00:21:42,814 --> 00:21:45,450
You're having a sausage sandwich. Red sauce,
362
00:21:45,910 --> 00:21:50,220
brown sauce or no sauce at all? Brown sauce,
363
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,620
definitely. It's the only semi sauce. I need to ask you about why?
364
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,232
I've had a lot of time to think about this. I too, a big fan
365
00:21:58,256 --> 00:22:01,144
of the Danny Baker show that it originated. I mean,
366
00:22:01,192 --> 00:22:04,744
red sauce with bacon. Sweetness goes quite well with bacon,
367
00:22:04,792 --> 00:22:08,248
but I think sausage needs a little bit sour, sort of vinegary flavour.
368
00:22:08,384 --> 00:22:11,784
Otherwise it can. It needs something to cut through the sort of slight
369
00:22:11,912 --> 00:22:15,618
oily fattiness of the sausage. And so for
370
00:22:15,634 --> 00:22:19,994
that reason, definitely ground sauce. Well, I wasn't expecting
371
00:22:20,042 --> 00:22:24,050
such an informed answer to that. You've really thought about the nuances
372
00:22:24,130 --> 00:22:27,470
and the tastes and everything that's involved here.
373
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:32,590
These things are important. Okay, well, on that bombshell,
374
00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:35,710
we'll leave it there. Thanks, Ray. See you next time.
