331. Matchmaker Mindset: How to Make Yourself Memorable in Any Conversation

WEBVTT

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Conversations can be brutal, but with
a little preparation and bridging,

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you can have amazing communication.

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My name's Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

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Stanford Graduate School of Business.

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Welcome to Think Fast,
Talk Smart, the podcast.

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Today, I'm excited to have
another conversation with

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my friend Rachel Greenwald.

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Rachel is an executive fellow at Harvard
Business School and a professional

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matchmaker and dating coach.

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Rachel is an expert on communication and
relationship building, not only in the

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dating arena, but also in the workplace.

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She's here on campus at Stanford to
co-teach a class with Professor Tina

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Seelig called Designing for Love.

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Welcome, Rachel.

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I am so glad you decided to revisit us,
and it's great to be in person this time.

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Thanks for being here.

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You're welcome.

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Thanks for having me back.

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Excellent.

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Shall we get started?

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Let's do it.

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All right.

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The last time you were here, we talked a
lot about small talk, and you gave very

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actionable, useful advice that I use to
this day to start and to exit small talk.

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The white flag approach you taught was
amazing, and I really quote you often

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with the point that small talk is about
being interested and not interesting.

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And if any of you want to
hear Rachel's advice on small

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talk, go back to episode 217.

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So if those were sort of the entry-level,
beginner-level small talk advice and

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tips, can you give us some advanced
advice, black belt level small talk

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tips to help us better communicate and
help us avoid that dread we all feel?

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Yeah, everybody hates small talk because
mostly it's so boring and awkward.

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So I think that moving up the
scale to graduate level small

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talk advice is really about moving
from playing defense to offense.

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So defense is more like coming
up with good answers to basic

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small talk questions, which
we talked about last time.

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But playing offense is more about
being strategic with your small talk

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game to help your conversation partner
learn something about you that might

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lead to a desired goal that you have.

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So this is really where your personal
brand comes in, where I want you to find

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a bridge out of the initial stages of
small talk that leads towards a topic

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that makes you unique and memorable.

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So here's an example.

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Maybe you're on a date or
you're in a job interview.

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You want it to go well, so you think a
little bit ahead of time, "What is it

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that makes me unique from all the other
dates that he's been on this week or all

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the other candidates he's interviewed
this week?" And in your case, Matt, maybe

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it's that being a podcast host is unique.

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You know, you don't meet
those hosts every day.

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What I want you to do is find a bridge
that is gonna take you from a basic

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small talk question like, "How are
you?" to something that allows you

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to talk about being a podcast host.

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So for example, if I say, "How
are you?" You might say, "Oh,

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I'm actually doing great today.

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I just interviewed a really
interesting guest on my podcast, and

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she told me all about organic wine."
And so now you've sort of bridged

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into this more interesting topic.

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The key, though, is that you have
to have a plan going into these

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type of conversations because you
can't expect to just come up with

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something like that on the spot.

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Think about if you're an athlete,
you wouldn't just start exercising.

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You would do some stretching and
warming up before the exercise.

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So all sorts of examples like this, for
example, in a job interview, let's say

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one of the personal brand attributes that
makes you unique is that you're gritty.

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You, you have a lot of grit.

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Maybe you walk into a job
interviewer's office, and he's

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got a photo of himself climbing a
mountain behind him on the desk.

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And so you could do this bridge where
you say, "Oh, I noticed that hiking

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photo over there. I'm curious where that
hike is because actually I just climbed

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Kilimanjaro this year, and it was so hard,
but I did it." And so here you're moving

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basic small talk into something that is
strategic on your part, demonstrating your

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personal brand, that is grit in this case.

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So what I really hear is it's
about branding and bridging

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and how you connect those two.

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And what's required there is
to be a little strategic and to

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think in advance about what are
those things that make me unique.

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What advice do you have as we
reflect on our personal brand?

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We've had Seth Godin and Dorie
Clark on the show, and they've

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talked about personal brand as well.

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But as a matchmaker, I'm wondering if
you have a specific way of thinking about

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brand that we could all benefit from.

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I do.

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I mean, I think the first thing to say
about personal branding is that it gets

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a bad reputation as being manipulative
or like you're bragging or showing off

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if you talk about something that makes
you unique or special or memorable.

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So I think the first thing is you have
to get that out of your head, that I

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think the better metaphor about personal
branding is that it's almost like you're

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walking into a restaurant and the hostess
is greeting you at the host stand, and

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she can either make basic small talk with
you and say something like, "How are you?

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Would you like a table?" Or she could
hand you a menu and essentially say,

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"What looks good here tonight on the
menu?" So essentially, she's focusing

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the initial greeting on, like, the
chef's specials and what are the

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signature items at the restaurant.

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Once you've got the right attitude
about personal branding, the, the

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easiest shortcut to what is a personal
brand is to come up with three traits

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or skills that makes you unique.

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Seth Godin talked about this
in Purple Cow, about basically

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how to be unique and memorable.

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And I think you just come up with three
things that feel authentic but also

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unique, kind of the Venn diagram of who
you are, but what's unique about that.

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So maybe you're on a date, for example,
and let's say your three personal brand

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traits are that you're adventurous,
maybe you once appeared on Shark

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Tank, and you're from North Dakota.

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Being from North Dakota is not like
being from New York or California.

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It's unique.

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So you will pick something that is
part of that personal brand and find a

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bridge out of small talk into focusing
on something that makes you memorable.

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Of course, you may not be
the only one on Shark Tank.

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You're not the only one
who's from North Dakota.

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You're not the only one who's adventurous.

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But you might be the Venn diagram of those
three things, and that is a great place to

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start when somebody on a date might say to
you, "What do you do?" You might be able

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to think in advance, uh, well, I'm gonna
talk about being on Shark Tank because

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that's always good fodder for interesting
conversation and the crazy things that

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happened that one time I was on TV.

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And so somebody says, "What do you do?"
And you might start off by saying, "Well,

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I'm an entrepreneur, but I have to tell
you, I've only had 15 minutes of fame.

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My company may not be doing very well
right now, but once I was actually on

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Shark Tank, and I have the craziest
stories about Mr. Wonderful." So

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you brought up the topic, and you've
really served up a interesting menu

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to your conversation partner about
something to talk about right away.

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I really like the idea of delineating your
authentic differences in your brand as

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circles that overlap in a Venn diagram.

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A lot of people say, "Just list out
all the different things," but the

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physical representation and overlaps is
what I think can be really interesting

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because that is what makes you unique.

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There might be a lot of people who have
tenacity and a lot of people who have

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deep knowledge in one area, but that
overlap makes it unique, and I like that

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idea of helping us identify it that way.

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And then thinking of yourself as a host
or a hostess who has to focus that initial

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interaction, I really like that as well.

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Thank you.

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Many of us struggle in conversation
in general, but the real

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struggle is that first beginning
part, that first 60 seconds.

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Do you have advice on how to
maximize and set ourselves up

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to enjoy that beginning part?

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I feel like once I get over that
hump, it becomes much easier.

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You're exactly right, that those
first 60 seconds are the worst.

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I think taking an improv class is
always great because that helps

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teach you to roll with any situation.

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But beyond that, there are two other
things that I coach my dating clients on.

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So the first thing I tell people to
ease that first minute is topic prep.

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So to think about in advance, again,
you're like an athlete stretching

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and warming up for the exercises.

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Topic prep involves just
taking a minute or two before

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you walk into a conversation.

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You're maybe going to a business
networking event or on a date

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or a job interview or even
catching up with a friend.

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And you pause and think of three things
that you're curious to ask in advance.

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So if it's a stranger you're meeting,
you can Google them or find their

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Instagram or look for clues in
some messages you've had so far for

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what they might be interested in.

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But for example, let's say you
looked at their Instagram in advance

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of somebody you're meeting on a
date and you saw that this guy had

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a photo of himself fly fishing.

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So maybe that's one of your three topics
that you've prepped in advance, and you

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are gonna ask how he became interested in
fly fishing, and maybe that's gonna lead

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to a story about how his dad taught him
to fly fish, and it was bonding, and that

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opens up conversation about his family.

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So I think being prepared
is super important.

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There's another really interesting trick
that works especially well in almost

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every situation, and it is a Latin phrase
called in medias res. And in medias res

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means literally in the middle of things.

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So this is where you start
a story in the middle.

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If you've ever seen a TV show where
they start with a robbery in progress,

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and then the show cuts to a phrase
on the screen that says, "Three days

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earlier," and it hooks the listener
to show what led up to that moment.

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In conversation, starting a story in the
middle is something that you actually did

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the last time you and I had a phone call.

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I don't know if you remember this.

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I remember the phone call.

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I don't remember this.

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As soon as we got on the phone, I said
to you something like, "Thanks for

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accommodating my schedule to talk on a
Saturday." And you said, "There I was,

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toilet shopping with my mom when the
reminder for our meeting popped up on my

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phone." And so I was immediately hooked.

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Toilet shopping for your mom?

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What on earth is the backstory to that?

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And you just launched into, in
medias res, in the middle of a story,

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something that was unexpected and
intriguing, and it really just helped

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us get over very quickly those awkward
first 60 seconds of small talk.

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I'm glad I demonstrated that.

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Let's just say it was an explosive
situation that needed to be

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fixed, and we took care of it.

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Again, the advice is to do some
preparation, even though conversations

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are spontaneous, to, to take
the time to do some preparation.

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And that reconnaissance, reflection, and
research on the person or people you're

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interacting with can be really helpful.

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And the goal is not to script out
the communication, but it's really

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to find the opening for further
conversation, is what I heard you say.

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And that, to me, is a very
different way of approaching.

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So it's not just, "What do I say to
start it?" It's, "What do I say to

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open up the conversation?" And I like
the idea of starting in the middle.

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As somebody who teaches people how to
give presentations, that's definitely

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a technique that can be used, and I
like that you apply it to conversation.

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I wanna talk about how we did
prepare for this interview on

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that phone call on that Saturday.

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You and I had a conversation
about handling taboo topics,

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things like money, religion, sex.

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You have some really useful ideas
about how to discuss these types

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of topics, which turn out to be
really important as we develop

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deeper relationships with people.

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Can you share some tips and tools to help
us talk about topics that might be taboo?

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People tend to avoid taboo
topics because they're fearful of

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controversy or having awkward moments.

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But I would invite people, as they
move away from small talk and start

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to grow and deepen a relationship with
somebody, to reframe taboo topics as

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really a gateway to deepen connections.

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For example, what that looks like is
not focusing on the facts of the taboo

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topic, not, "What do you think about
it? Are you in favor of it or against

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it?" Those are facts about a taboo
topic like money, sex, or religion.

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But really to focus on the stories
and emotions behind those topics.

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So for example, if we use the taboo topic
of money, um, it's always somewhat awkward

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to talk about money for most people.

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So let's say you've been dating somebody
for a few weeks or months, and you

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wanna start assessing if your values
align on an important topic like money.

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So instead of asking a factual-based
question like, "Do you consider

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yourself frugal with your money, or
do you spend lavishly?" You might ask

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a question that evokes a story like,
"What did your parents teach you about

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money when you were growing up?" Or
you might ask a question like, "What's

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the first thing you bought with your
own money, and why was that important?"

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So here you're getting at the why of
what they feel and not a factual black

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or white answer in terms of whether they
align with what you think about the topic.

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So even though money is one of these
topics that people argue a lot about in

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marriages, what's important is how you
argue, not what you're arguing about, and

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not whether you're on the same page, but
how you resolve conflict when it arises.

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Taboo topics and using those to get
into storytelling about how someone's

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belief system was shaped, especially
at a young age, is really this kind

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of gateway to making taboo topics
a vehicle for deeper connection.

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So several things there that I
really like, that talking about

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topics that can be challenging
actually deepen the relationship.

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And a great way to do it is
through asking questions designed

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for people to explain why.

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Tell stories.

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Help me understand how you came to this
rather than what it is you believe.

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We had Wendy De La Rosa on, and we
talked a lot about money, and, and

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she had similar advice, that talking
about money in her case, but in all

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these topics, it's really an act of
demonstrating care and concern, and

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that's what deepens those relationships.

00:15:26.868 --> 00:15:31.851
And I love the idea of just soliciting
stories from people that allow you then

00:15:31.853 --> 00:15:33.894
to have, again, deeper conversations.

00:15:34.222 --> 00:15:35.182
Really good advice.

00:15:36.352 --> 00:15:37.774
Well, Rachel, you've been here before.

00:15:38.064 --> 00:15:41.952
You know that before we end, I
ask everybody three questions.

00:15:42.228 --> 00:15:46.238
One I make up just for you, and two
I've been asking people for a long time.

00:15:46.238 --> 00:15:49.232
And feel free to repeat what you've
said before or come up with different

00:15:49.232 --> 00:15:50.744
answers from our, your previous visit.

00:15:51.085 --> 00:15:51.930
Are you ready for these?

00:15:52.010 --> 00:15:52.814
Absolutely.

00:15:52.905 --> 00:15:53.714
Excellent.

00:15:54.258 --> 00:15:58.891
As a matchmaker, your clients go out on
dates every night all over the world,

00:15:59.214 --> 00:16:04.391
and the date outcome entirely hinges on
them having a good or bad conversation.

00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.674
How do you evaluate a successful
or unsuccessful date when you're

00:16:08.674 --> 00:16:12.229
not there yourself and you're just
listening in to what they tell you?

00:16:12.252 --> 00:16:14.935
How do you assess a good conversation?

00:16:15.493 --> 00:16:16.828
Oh, I love that question.

00:16:16.939 --> 00:16:23.131
The truth is, I have one simple
question that I reflect back to them,

00:16:23.329 --> 00:16:30.180
and I ask them, "What side of you
did they bring out?" So what I'm not

00:16:30.222 --> 00:16:33.915
asking is information-based questions.

00:16:33.974 --> 00:16:39.925
I am not asking, "Did you like
them?" Or, "What information did you

00:16:39.925 --> 00:16:44.257
learn about them?" Or, "Was there a
spark?" You know, those are typical

00:16:44.257 --> 00:16:47.746
questions that your friends might ask
you when you get back from a date.

00:16:48.127 --> 00:16:53.661
I'm asking, "What side of you did
they bring out?" to help me determine

00:16:53.690 --> 00:16:55.177
if this was a good or bad date.

00:16:55.704 --> 00:17:03.048
So if their answer is something like, "He
brought out my playful side," or maybe,

00:17:03.507 --> 00:17:08.472
"She brought out my confident side,"
then I know it was a successful date.

00:17:08.862 --> 00:17:13.271
But if their answer was something
more like, "Well, actually, he brought

00:17:13.271 --> 00:17:18.098
out my insecure side," or, "No, no,
she brought out my competitive side,"

00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:20.060
that's when I know it didn't go well.

00:17:20.702 --> 00:17:23.649
I really like that question
for assessing conversation, not

00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:25.023
just on dates, but in general.

00:17:25.023 --> 00:17:27.587
You know, what part of yourself
showed up or was able to be

00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:29.395
shown off in the conversation?

00:17:29.811 --> 00:17:32.354
And I think we can all do that ourselves.

00:17:32.355 --> 00:17:35.893
We don't need to just go to somebody who's
an expert like you and think about that.

00:17:36.284 --> 00:17:37.121
I really like that.

00:17:37.123 --> 00:17:38.590
I appreciate that question.

00:17:39.312 --> 00:17:43.423
Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire, and why?

00:17:44.098 --> 00:17:48.735
I've thought about this since the
last time I was on the show, and

00:17:48.802 --> 00:17:53.454
I'm gonna tell you about a personal
friend of mine named Katrina.

00:17:53.521 --> 00:17:59.943
And the reason I admire her so much is
that she always makes me feel good when

00:17:59.943 --> 00:18:05.621
I talk to her, and she does two specific
things that always make me feel good.

00:18:06.036 --> 00:18:12.337
First of all, she has a signature
expression that she uses all the

00:18:12.337 --> 00:18:18.432
time, and the expression is, "It's not
lost on me." So she'll say something

00:18:18.432 --> 00:18:23.813
like, "It's not lost on me that you
have an early morning tomorrow and

00:18:23.823 --> 00:18:26.049
you didn't cancel our dinner tonight.

00:18:26.483 --> 00:18:30.225
I really appreciate that you came
out and spent this time with me."

00:18:30.485 --> 00:18:33.927
So she's just finding a way to
show appreciation, and it makes

00:18:33.928 --> 00:18:37.038
me feel so good, especially
when it's something so minor.

00:18:37.053 --> 00:18:41.947
You know, it's not lost on her
that I didn't cancel our date.

00:18:41.947 --> 00:18:46.793
Like, that's a pretty low bar, but
here she is feeling so appreciative.

00:18:47.125 --> 00:18:50.847
So I think that expression is something
that everybody should use more of.

00:18:51.318 --> 00:18:56.960
And then the second thing she does
is she leaves a lot of voice notes

00:18:56.986 --> 00:18:59.576
for me instead of texting me.

00:19:00.106 --> 00:19:07.616
And I think this is a really underutilized
feature on our phones because it's

00:19:07.655 --> 00:19:11.835
not only unique from everybody else
that's texting you, but it's more

00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:16.292
personal, and it creates an emotional
connection when I hear her voice.

00:19:16.656 --> 00:19:21.283
And so I would say 8 out of 10
times that I communicate with her

00:19:21.522 --> 00:19:23.684
is her leaving me a voice note.

00:19:23.941 --> 00:19:28.062
Now, I also appreciate that
it's not as intrusive as a phone

00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:31.808
call because that would be her
interrupting something else I'm doing.

00:19:31.818 --> 00:19:35.141
But, you know, the voice note is
just that beautiful, happy medium

00:19:35.157 --> 00:19:39.764
where I get personal and emotional
connection with her, but it's on

00:19:39.765 --> 00:19:41.533
my own time when I listen to it.

00:19:41.543 --> 00:19:46.219
So I think those two things, appreciation
and emotional connection, are really

00:19:46.254 --> 00:19:48.540
what make her a superstar communicator.

00:19:49.148 --> 00:19:52.396
I'll start by saying it's not lost on
me that you spent a little time thinking

00:19:52.397 --> 00:19:54.301
about this deeply, and I appreciate that.

00:19:54.331 --> 00:19:58.559
And taking the time to express
appreciation and finding a unique way

00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.246
to connect with somebody where your
true voice, in the case of a voice

00:20:01.248 --> 00:20:02.970
memo, comes out, I appreciate that.

00:20:03.588 --> 00:20:07.399
Well, the final question, Rachel, what
are the first three ingredients that go

00:20:07.399 --> 00:20:10.088
into a successful communication recipe?

00:20:10.855 --> 00:20:12.631
The first ingredient is mood.

00:20:12.881 --> 00:20:18.052
I think not enough people think
about how they make someone feel

00:20:18.322 --> 00:20:19.965
when they're talking to them.

00:20:19.996 --> 00:20:27.299
And so the idea here is that if somebody
says something to you like, "I love

00:20:27.323 --> 00:20:32.188
to ski," you might respond by saying
something like, "Me too," if you're the

00:20:32.188 --> 00:20:37.466
mirror, or you might respond by saying
something factual, a, a question like,

00:20:37.547 --> 00:20:42.103
"Where's your favorite place to ski?"
That would be a very legitimate response.

00:20:42.365 --> 00:20:48.971
But a mood-based response to somebody who
says they like to ski is more like saying

00:20:48.976 --> 00:20:54.079
to them, "Tell me the last time you went
skiing and you really loved the day."

00:20:54.572 --> 00:21:01.723
And that kind of evokes a time for them
when they felt good, and you're invoking

00:21:01.751 --> 00:21:09.702
a positive memory by asking a question
that is focused on them telling a story.

00:21:09.813 --> 00:21:16.532
It's promoting connection, and it's
not garnering information, but really

00:21:16.953 --> 00:21:22.067
creating a moment between the two of you
where they're affiliating the positive

00:21:22.082 --> 00:21:27.673
mood they are calling up from their
memory with almost, like, conflating

00:21:27.681 --> 00:21:31.274
it with you because you're the one
that's experiencing that with them.

00:21:31.801 --> 00:21:36.514
The second ingredient I would say
is a acronym I use all the time,

00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.106
which is DBB, don't be boring.

00:21:40.627 --> 00:21:46.993
I think not enough people use
DBB, don't be boring, as a lens

00:21:47.014 --> 00:21:49.585
to filter their conversation.

00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:56.139
And if you can start to remember
that every time you go to answer a

00:21:56.139 --> 00:22:01.444
question in a conversation, first
do a quick check, "Is this boring?"

00:22:01.665 --> 00:22:05.824
And if it is, come up with something
more interesting because boredom

00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:07.611
is just the enemy of conversation.

00:22:08.156 --> 00:22:12.964
And last, I guess the ingredient I
would say is probably vulnerability.

00:22:13.370 --> 00:22:17.650
Not just showing the polished
version of yourself, but really

00:22:17.653 --> 00:22:21.734
telling a story that's real and
humble, maybe self-deprecating.

00:22:21.962 --> 00:22:24.172
You could talk about a
challenge you're having.

00:22:24.181 --> 00:22:26.443
You could talk about
an embarrassing moment.

00:22:26.661 --> 00:22:28.105
You could talk about a regret.

00:22:28.489 --> 00:22:32.274
And it's not about bringing the mood
down or being negative, but really

00:22:32.274 --> 00:22:36.818
just being aware that the polished
version of you where everything's

00:22:36.821 --> 00:22:41.220
great and you're amazing is a
lost opportunity for connection.

00:22:41.918 --> 00:22:45.601
All of your three ingredients
have to do with connection.

00:22:46.060 --> 00:22:50.336
I really like the idea of setting the
mood through the things you ask and

00:22:50.345 --> 00:22:54.662
the interaction you have, and that
mood does transfer from if I'm having

00:22:54.662 --> 00:22:58.420
a good time telling you a story,
I'm having a good time with you.

00:22:58.738 --> 00:23:03.113
And this notion of as you begin
to respond in a conversation,

00:23:03.423 --> 00:23:04.939
you have choices of what to say.

00:23:04.946 --> 00:23:06.559
Choose the option that's less boring.

00:23:07.066 --> 00:23:10.796
And then finally, being vulnerable,
being authentic, really powerful.

00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:14.131
Rachel, like all of our conversations,
I learn so much from you.

00:23:14.172 --> 00:23:15.551
I really appreciate it.

00:23:15.632 --> 00:23:20.638
This notion of thinking first and
planning before we go into conversation,

00:23:20.988 --> 00:23:25.291
considering how we bridge into the
topics we want to have, and how we

00:23:25.293 --> 00:23:28.700
can bring out the best in others
and ourselves, really important.

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:29.125
Thank you.

00:23:29.531 --> 00:23:30.421
Thanks for having me.

00:23:30.421 --> 00:23:31.821
It was a pleasure as always.

00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.502
Thank you for joining us
for another episode of Think

00:23:35.503 --> 00:23:37.179
Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

00:23:37.547 --> 00:23:41.203
To learn more from Rachel Greenwald,
please listen to episode 217.

00:23:41.713 --> 00:23:46.115
This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

00:23:46.370 --> 00:23:50.466
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

00:23:50.932 --> 00:23:53.962
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