00:00:09
Speaker 1: Hey y'all, welcome back to I Have Some Thoughts, the Therapy for Black Girls mini-series where we're talking about all things pop culture, but of course from a mental health lens. And Elise is back in the building with me today. Hey, Elise.
00:00:22
Speaker 2: Hey, I am super excited to chat today in our pre-production meeting. We had so many things, so many things on the cutting room floor. Some of them didn't make it. So you guys, this feels like a very packed episode, really the best of the best. So we're going to start with Tisha Campbell's autism diagnosis. So the singer revealed she was recently diagnosed with autism. In raising her son, who is autistic, she decided to get tested herself and was diagnosed with AUDHD.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: So it sounds like both autism and ADHD.
00:00:58
Speaker 2: Yes. She shared that her whole life she's masked with loudness and jokes, but that receiving the diagnosis helped her understand herself differently and brought clarity to experiences she had struggled to explain throughout her life. This is something I can really resonate with as someone who has a hearing disability and thought sometimes like, am I stupid? Like, am I just not getting things until I was formally diagnosed?
00:01:23
Speaker 3: And it was like, okay.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: This diagnosis has finally given a name to the things I've spent.
00:01:29
Speaker 3: My whole life trying to understand.
00:01:32
Speaker 2: And so my question for you is, why can receiving a diagnosis later in life feel both validating and maybe a bit overwhelming?
00:01:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I really appreciate you sharing your personal story there, at least, because I think for a lot of people, they don't get diagnoses until later in life. And then all of these things start clicking.
00:01:50
Speaker 2: Right.
00:01:50
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, my gosh, like there was a name for this and I wasn't stupid or I wasn't lazy. Right. I'm also not surprised. Like, I think it's really interesting how many stories like this I hear where a child will go in for testing for like autism or ADHD. And then the parent through the assessment or through some of the questions that the assessor is asking realizes like, oh, my gosh, like I struggle with these same things, too. And so I think it can just make a lot of things make sense in a person's history when they're able to get this diagnosis. But I also think the overwhelming piece comes from then you feeling like you got to then go back and like try to figure out like, OK, can I rewrite some parts of this? Or now you're throwing yourself into learning all of this new information that can feel very overwhelming. So I appreciate you naming the duality of it, that it is very validating to know like, oh, this is what was going on. And now I have all this stuff that I feel like I need to learn to make sense of like what happens next in my life.
00:02:49
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:02:49
Speaker 2: And I think a big question I have, and I don't know if this is like an overwhelming trend, but it does seem that women and girls are sometimes diagnosed later than boys.
00:03:01
Speaker 3: Can you talk to me about that?
00:03:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, so we know just kind of the history of testing and, you know, those kinds of things. Women are not often included in like the test group for a lot of the assessments. And so when people are setting the norms for the test and the assessment protocols. It doesn't always capture the lived experience of girls. I think it also speaks to the way that women and girls are often socialized to be overachievers. And so especially for things like autism and ADHD, high achievement can mask some of the actual symptoms that in boys sometimes are more overt. In girls, it is often masked because we are often socialized to work until exhaustion. And then there aren't always the same behavioral concerns that we sometimes see with boys, especially in grade schools. And so I think for a lot of people, it just goes under the radar until you get older and you can't maybe the systems that you had in place to manage all of these things fall apart. I've been really interested in seeing the spark in conversation around how people are often diagnosed when they get to like perimenopause, menopause age, like there's more research coming out there, right? Because we know the role that hormones plays in kind of helping all of these systems work together. And then when there are breakdown in those hormones, then all of the systems fall apart. So I think that there are lots of socialization kinds of reasons why women and girls are often missed, but also due to the assessment protocols that are often in place.
00:04:29
Speaker 3: That is such great insight.
00:04:31
Speaker 2: I recently listened to a podcast episode that said something similar about like Apple watches and fitness trackers and how a lot of them are tested on men. And so a lot of the ways women respond to them or use them aren't necessarily helping the way women function in their body. That's very interesting that it shows up in multiple facets of life. When I'm thinking back to my own diagnosis, I have an auditory processing disorder that I had this and kind of maybe known in some way throughout elementary school. And it wasn't until middle school and high school and then college where I got accommodations. And I think I really struggled with allowing myself to have the accommodations because I had succeeded thus far. And so talk to me about the courage it takes to allow yourself to need the accommodations, to use them, to also advocate for them and just use them proudly after spending your life figuring out how to function without them.
00:05:31
Speaker 1: That's such an excellent point that you raise, Elise, because I think, again, for so many of us who have kind of been socialized to overachieve and to kind of find a way or make one, so to speak, it can feel like, oh, I don't need this crutch, so to speak, right? Or what does this mean about like who I think I am when I've developed so much of this identity of being an overachiever or kind of being able to do it no matter how hard it is. But I think that there is no real, you don't get a gold star for like, Working yourself beyond where everybody else is, right? Like, yes, you were able to put some systems in place that allows you to achieve, but how much easier could things have been if you already had the supports in place? And so I think that that is really something that I would encourage people to think about because, again, my background is in college student mental health. And at Clark Atlanta University, I was the director of the Counseling Center, which also housed the Disability Resources Center. And a lot of students would come to college and feel hesitant around coming to get the resources they needed or the accommodations, extra time or, you know, private testing. But there is no honor really in like working yourself past the limit. Like life is already hard enough. Go ahead and use the supports that you need and the things that will make life a little easier for you.
00:06:43
Speaker 3: Thank you for that reminder.
00:06:45
Speaker 2: And I know we have an episode of TBGU that is about getting the resources in college.
00:06:51
Speaker 3: So you guys can look for that in the podcast feed.
00:06:55
Speaker 2: So this one animates me because it does feel like journalism is back. When people are discussing the hot article, I'm very excited because.
00:07:02
Speaker 3: It means that people are reading. In a New York Times.
00:07:06
Speaker 2: Magazine essay, Nicole Hannah-Jones revisits her decision to send her daughter to a predominantly black, lower-income public school in New York City as a part of her commitment to challenging educational inequality. Years later, her daughter says she feels the decision came at the expense of her own education, and Hannah-Jones reflects on whether prioritizing a collective ideal ultimately harmed her child. There has been a lot of discourse about this. And I think the conversation exposed how black parents have like.
00:07:40
Speaker 3: A really hard decision when it comes to education.
00:07:43
Speaker 2: And we kind of judge both sides of it. We've seen people criticize like black parents for allowing their children to grow up in like predominantly white environments and have those friends. And now there's the opposite side where she chose this collectivism by putting her daughter in a predominantly black school and And it did come at.
00:08:01
Speaker 3: The expense of her education.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: That's a conversation she's had with her daughter. I don't necessarily want to frame those two choices as a binary, but it does seem like that is a position a lot of people are in. And so the larger question is whether we're putting too much moral weight on either decision or any decision. And so my question for you is, how do Black parents weigh academic opportunity against racial and emotional safety of their children that they may lose in predominantly white environments.
00:08:34
Speaker 3: At least this.
00:08:37
Speaker 1: Is such a lot.
00:08:38
Speaker 3: And I agree with you.
00:08:39
Speaker 1: You know, I have been excited to see people like so engaged with the article. And we hope that they're actually reading the article to be able to kind of form opinions and discuss it. But it is exciting to see like a piece that people are, you know, really kind of wanting to weigh in on. And it really does, I think, speak to the impossibility of choices as Black parents. And parenting is such a difficult process for so many different reasons. And it feels like one of those things where you really only have one chance to not mess up. It just feels like there's so much pressure. And of course, being responsible for your young person's educational future, it feels like the thing that you never want to mess up, right? Like, how much can you go back and fix things if we make the wrong decision? And I think it really just speaks to the systemic issues that Black parents have in finding a school that is going to be a good fit for their kids, right? I think gone are the days where we think that any one school can give any child like all of what they need. Like we just talked about how much more information we have around like learning disabilities and how kids learn different and like being able to put them in schools where they actually can succeed given the curriculum and the teaching staff and like all of the supports. And no one school is going to be the best for even the same family of kids, right? Sometimes parents are making decisions about sending one kid to one school and one kid to a different school. And so I think when you think about the systemic issues that we know exist, especially for Black kids, I don't think it's fair, though it is a sad reality. It is not fair to ask an individual Black family to make the decision to try to like right the system, right? at the expense of their own child. But I think there are no easy choices, right? Like in some of the conversation I've seen is that there's this common refrain of like you pay for a tutor or you pay for a therapist. And I think that a lot of people feel that way, right? If you put them in a school where they are a minority, you know, like maybe it's a predominantly white school, then sadly, we know that there are lots of racist experiences that they can have that leave them traumatized much later in life, right? But on the other hand, do you put them in a school where maybe there are more kids that look like them, but for whatever reason, like the academic standards are not the same? That also feels like a difficult choice, right? And so I think it is just the kind of thing where you try to make the best decision that you can with the information that you have. But I also think an important piece is really making sure that you're listening to your child about like their experiences and what kinds of things they're feeling and always being open to reassess, right? Like maybe you make a decision now. And I think that's what she spoke to in the article, right? Like she made a decision when her child was earlier and has now made a different decision, right? And so I think that that's the best thing that we can do is kind of be open to listening to our kids' experiences and making different decisions if it feels like the situation calls for something different.
00:11:33
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
00:11:34
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we can say it in jest, but it's your parents' first time on earth too. And that doesn't mean they're going to make all the right decisions. You know, they may not even be from the city that you're going to school. And that was my experience. Neither of my parents were from DC. And so- it was like working out. I went to like so many different schools. I went to private school. I went to public school and it was more like, what is the best fit for Elise? And then there was a time in high school where I was like, I no longer want to go to school. And my parents were like, okay, well.
00:12:04
Speaker 3: We have to figure that out.
00:12:06
Speaker 2: And I ended up studying abroad, but it was what I needed as a child. And so I'm not a parent, but I do think about like, wow, this decision is a lot deeper than like, am I going to send them to a good school? Because you could go to a good school and have dyslexia and just generally struggle with math and still need a tutor outside of what is happening from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. And so I love to see all the conversation that is about like, it is about your child and not necessarily about like one school being better than the other, even if that's the case. Right.
00:12:45
Speaker 1: And I would love to hear at least because you have several siblings and I'm guessing all of you didn't follow the same like academic path, right? Like you all went to different schools and like, can you say about like how your parents maybe made decisions about what was best for each of you?
00:12:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, when I went to private school, a big part of it was in private school, there was a very rigid way of doing things.
00:13:10
Speaker 3: And I would, I'm like a creative thinker.
00:13:12
Speaker 2: Like I'm always thinking about like, not necessarily how to get around the system, but how to make things work for me. And that was a very big tension being in private school. In addition to just like casual racism, that was very different for me coming from a predominantly black city. And so, yeah, I needed to go to a different school. My little sister also went to private school, but like we always knew that she was going to like have a career in the arts right now. She's in Paris in graduate school, studying fashion. So it was best to send her to a performing arts high school and to be around a place that would nurture her talents more. My brother is the only boy in my family. And he went to a public school where I thought there are a lot of black male teachers in DC. And I think that was very important for him. Obviously like, having a dad, but also realizing that you don't have any brothers. So like the way you need to be socialized is different. And so that's just how I think through how my parents may have made choices. I, I don't want to say like maybe more mature than my classmates, but I would kind of get annoyed with like distractions in high school, like, you know, riffraff. And it would really, I kind of feel like a nerd. Like I was there to learn, but I was. And at one point I went to my mom and I ended up saying like, I, and becoming frustrated with school because it is a chore for all of us.
00:14:43
Speaker 3: Like none of us want to be here. We're all 16. We'd rather be doing something else.
00:14:47
Speaker 2: But I don't, I feel like I'm being pulled in all these different directions and I'd rather just get the day over with and I'm looking for a new experience.
00:14:55
Speaker 3: And it was a State Department program. I ended up applying. It was free. And I went to school in Ghana for a year.
00:15:00
Speaker 2: And it was kind of having this open communication with my parents ever since I went to private school, being able to say.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: Like, I'm kind of unhappy here.
00:15:09
Speaker 2: And I think when I meet younger kids, even as big cousin Elise or auntie Elise, I'm like, it is important to listen to what they're saying because they know so much about.
00:15:21
Speaker 3: Their own experience.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I'm really blessed to have been able to have that open communication with my parents where it's like, yeah, I don't really like what's going on here. And this is the reality of the classroom situation outside of what test scores are or like what the prestige of the school is. And then I think just generally important, like for my family was to have black teachers. And that's kind of like a given growing up in DC. Like it's very common. Cause I know I hear people like, Oh, I had my first black teacher until I was like, Oh, that's all I kind of know. But I do think that was very important that you don't see, you know, the people who are teaching you to be very different from you.
00:16:00
Speaker 3: And it doesn't feel like punitive a lot of the times.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Because I could imagine that being a dynamic, like if I've only had teachers who aren't Black, it does not seem like sometimes like there's care. It seems like this more demeaning, even if that's not their intention, relationship with education. And so that was something that I always value. And I always saw it even in college classes. Are there opportunities? I didn't go to an HBCU to have Black professors in educators. So that's how I think through it. But circling back to what you said, someone I saw on threads was referring to the show Little Fires Everywhere. And I think it was an exchange between Kerry Washington and Reese Witherspoon. And her character was like, I made good choices. And Kerry Washington was like, no, you had good choices to make. And I think it is so much more complicated to then like, is a school good or not? And I'm glad that we're unpacking that part of it because I do think we shame people for one versus the other.
00:16:59
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's such a big conversation. Like there's so much nuance to be uncovered in this conversation. And there's so much conversation even just in general around like school choice and like people thinking about it and how can we make all schools good schools for, you know, our kids to go to. So, you know, I do hope that this is a starting point for a much larger conversation. More from our conversation after the break.
00:17:25
Speaker 3: Okay, so we have one more.
00:17:27
Speaker 2: And this is so funny because I'm currently, I have my iced coffee in the work recording. But I don't know if you've seen this conversation on whether it is unprofessional to bring coffee to a job interview. So a recruiter posted a TikTok sharing an observation that Gen Z candidates are arriving to job interviews with coffee.
00:17:50
Speaker 3: She says it.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: Reads too informal and like the candidate isn't taking the interview seriously. The argument here is that on one side, bringing coffee to an interview doesn't seem like anything of consequence or reflection of one's qualifications.
00:18:03
Speaker 3: It's kind of innocuous.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, like the recruiter pointed out, some view it as a lack of professionalism about the care and the impression the candidate wants to make on the interview. And I'm just curious on your take.
00:18:16
Speaker 3: I feel.
00:18:17
Speaker 2: that my natural inclination would not be to bring a coffee to an interview.
00:18:22
Speaker 3: And I'm not like shaming anyone.
00:18:24
Speaker 2: Like I think a water bottle is one thing. I'm more like, it's not that serious. I can get it before, drink it or get it after. Also, I know a lot of like, we are a remote work environment. So a lot of people have not had these office experiences, but I can like look back to a lot of like early internship job interviews that I had where they kind of offered me like, do you want something to drink? And so that's kind of like the mindset that I have. But I'm curious if this is a debate.
00:18:51
Speaker 3: Of morality or generational divide. It kind of feels like a mix of both.
00:18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. And, you know, I'm glad you brought up the point around a water bottle, because I feel like I wonder if it would feel the same to these people who are saying this is too casual if they brought a water bottle.
00:19:08
Speaker 2: Right.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: Like, what is it about the iced coffee that indicates that they are not taking the interview seriously? I think it wouldn't even be something I would pay attention to, like because everybody kind of has something to drink with them almost all the time. And so I'm really curious. I would love to hear more about like why this registers as unprofessional or like too casual to the people. And if a water bottle feels the same way, because you're right, like it is common to open up an interview with like, oh, can I offer you something to drink or whatever? So why does the presence of an iced coffee indicate unprofessionalism?
00:19:42
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:19:43
Speaker 2: I find it to be very interesting because I can understand like you do not need the iced coffee. Like water is a need. Iced coffee is not. And I think what it opens up is like, how do we balance our decisions with like, what is the status quo versus like our individualism? Because I will say like telling someone, oh, you shouldn't bring an iced coffee to an interview. It doesn't necessarily feel oppressive, but I do understand how people want to like punctuate their personal freedom and like in their everyday life and their agency. And so I kind of do understand that. But I think a common criticism of Gen Z is like, we are always trying to find ways to express our agency and, environments that do have social codes and expectations. And I'm curious, like your view on that, because again, it's this, this balance of like, yeah, it's not that deep, but I do understand where people are coming from. But how does one kind of begin to think through, like, is this something like worth the fight? If I do hear these rules of these etiquette rules or rules of professionalism?
00:20:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. And this kind of feels like an extension of our conversation two weeks ago around the U.S. Open. Right. And like the social rules that govern certain experiences. And this feels similar to that. Right. And it feels like we are now starting to hear more and more about like this culture class between Gen Z and like. millennials and the boomers who are still in the workplace. And it feels like, you know, Gen Z is just coming in with a very different energy that I think will require those of us who are not Gen Z to kind of think about why we may be holding on to certain rules and expectations that govern like a workplace, right? Now, I do think if you are somebody who is looking for a job and, you know, we know the job market is very difficult, it may be important to you to kind of play the game, so to speak, a little bit to make sure that you can kind of get your foot in the door and you wouldn't want to necessarily do anything that kind of jeopardizes that opportunity, whether it seems like a silly thing to you or not. But I also think that if a workplace has these kinds of rules and expectations and it very much feels like this is not for me, I think that that is information for you. Right. Like if you know enough about yourself to know that you want to really exert agency and that feels really important to you in a professional setting, then this may be a good indication that this is actually not a good workplace for you. right? Because if the workplace is not going to change, then maybe you need to look at other kinds of places. But I do think it brings up a larger conversation as employers and as, you know, people who are not Gen Z to think about why we are holding on to certain rules, right? Like what does an iced coffee really indicate to us, especially if the person has like glowing recommendation letters and all of these incredible experiences, like does the presence of an iced coffee negate them actually being a valuable part of your team?
00:22:41
Speaker 2: That's something that I think about all of the time, especially being here like over five years and now having the opportunity to be able to like be in hiring discussions. It's like some of the things that we think matter don't really matter. Even like resume gaps. I know like, whoa, why do you have a gap on your resume?
00:23:01
Speaker 3: And it's like, is that really any of your business?
00:23:04
Speaker 2: Or even if it is, it's like not that serious if they can do the work. It could have been for like so many things. And I think what you said about my mom would always say this to me, like, you're interviewing the job too. And so if you feel like you're at a place where you can't step out during the day and get an iced coffee. And that's important to you, just like needing a quick little break. I think that's what that really represents. Or even just wanting to eat the foods and drink the things that are, you know, to a certain degree in the office. I do think it's worth considering like, yeah, maybe I don't need to work here. And so I do appreciate like my generation for pushing back on some of these things and saying like, hey, well, I have to work here too. So it does need to be a place, not necessarily where I feel like I can bring my full self. I know that's like a complicated phrase, but where I can, be human to a degree and not feel like I can't have.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: A beverage.
00:24:02
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly we want to stay hydrated.
00:24:05
Speaker 2: And like you need a little caffeine sometimes right well thank you so much Dr. Joy for this conversation I hope everyone who wants.
00:24:17
Speaker 3: An iced coffee today is able to get one.
00:24:20
Speaker 1: I'll end on that get yourself a little treat we approve of it yes Thank you so much for these topics, Elise. Another great roundup of topics. And if there are things that you would like for us to weigh in on, you can always send those to us at therapyforblackgirls.com slash mailbox. And until next time, take good care of yourself.
Speaker 1: Hey y'all, welcome back to I Have Some Thoughts, the Therapy for Black Girls mini-series where we're talking about all things pop culture, but of course from a mental health lens. And Elise is back in the building with me today. Hey, Elise.
00:00:22
Speaker 2: Hey, I am super excited to chat today in our pre-production meeting. We had so many things, so many things on the cutting room floor. Some of them didn't make it. So you guys, this feels like a very packed episode, really the best of the best. So we're going to start with Tisha Campbell's autism diagnosis. So the singer revealed she was recently diagnosed with autism. In raising her son, who is autistic, she decided to get tested herself and was diagnosed with AUDHD.
00:00:55
Speaker 1: So it sounds like both autism and ADHD.
00:00:58
Speaker 2: Yes. She shared that her whole life she's masked with loudness and jokes, but that receiving the diagnosis helped her understand herself differently and brought clarity to experiences she had struggled to explain throughout her life. This is something I can really resonate with as someone who has a hearing disability and thought sometimes like, am I stupid? Like, am I just not getting things until I was formally diagnosed?
00:01:23
Speaker 3: And it was like, okay.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: This diagnosis has finally given a name to the things I've spent.
00:01:29
Speaker 3: My whole life trying to understand.
00:01:32
Speaker 2: And so my question for you is, why can receiving a diagnosis later in life feel both validating and maybe a bit overwhelming?
00:01:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I really appreciate you sharing your personal story there, at least, because I think for a lot of people, they don't get diagnoses until later in life. And then all of these things start clicking.
00:01:50
Speaker 2: Right.
00:01:50
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, my gosh, like there was a name for this and I wasn't stupid or I wasn't lazy. Right. I'm also not surprised. Like, I think it's really interesting how many stories like this I hear where a child will go in for testing for like autism or ADHD. And then the parent through the assessment or through some of the questions that the assessor is asking realizes like, oh, my gosh, like I struggle with these same things, too. And so I think it can just make a lot of things make sense in a person's history when they're able to get this diagnosis. But I also think the overwhelming piece comes from then you feeling like you got to then go back and like try to figure out like, OK, can I rewrite some parts of this? Or now you're throwing yourself into learning all of this new information that can feel very overwhelming. So I appreciate you naming the duality of it, that it is very validating to know like, oh, this is what was going on. And now I have all this stuff that I feel like I need to learn to make sense of like what happens next in my life.
00:02:49
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:02:49
Speaker 2: And I think a big question I have, and I don't know if this is like an overwhelming trend, but it does seem that women and girls are sometimes diagnosed later than boys.
00:03:01
Speaker 3: Can you talk to me about that?
00:03:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, so we know just kind of the history of testing and, you know, those kinds of things. Women are not often included in like the test group for a lot of the assessments. And so when people are setting the norms for the test and the assessment protocols. It doesn't always capture the lived experience of girls. I think it also speaks to the way that women and girls are often socialized to be overachievers. And so especially for things like autism and ADHD, high achievement can mask some of the actual symptoms that in boys sometimes are more overt. In girls, it is often masked because we are often socialized to work until exhaustion. And then there aren't always the same behavioral concerns that we sometimes see with boys, especially in grade schools. And so I think for a lot of people, it just goes under the radar until you get older and you can't maybe the systems that you had in place to manage all of these things fall apart. I've been really interested in seeing the spark in conversation around how people are often diagnosed when they get to like perimenopause, menopause age, like there's more research coming out there, right? Because we know the role that hormones plays in kind of helping all of these systems work together. And then when there are breakdown in those hormones, then all of the systems fall apart. So I think that there are lots of socialization kinds of reasons why women and girls are often missed, but also due to the assessment protocols that are often in place.
00:04:29
Speaker 3: That is such great insight.
00:04:31
Speaker 2: I recently listened to a podcast episode that said something similar about like Apple watches and fitness trackers and how a lot of them are tested on men. And so a lot of the ways women respond to them or use them aren't necessarily helping the way women function in their body. That's very interesting that it shows up in multiple facets of life. When I'm thinking back to my own diagnosis, I have an auditory processing disorder that I had this and kind of maybe known in some way throughout elementary school. And it wasn't until middle school and high school and then college where I got accommodations. And I think I really struggled with allowing myself to have the accommodations because I had succeeded thus far. And so talk to me about the courage it takes to allow yourself to need the accommodations, to use them, to also advocate for them and just use them proudly after spending your life figuring out how to function without them.
00:05:31
Speaker 1: That's such an excellent point that you raise, Elise, because I think, again, for so many of us who have kind of been socialized to overachieve and to kind of find a way or make one, so to speak, it can feel like, oh, I don't need this crutch, so to speak, right? Or what does this mean about like who I think I am when I've developed so much of this identity of being an overachiever or kind of being able to do it no matter how hard it is. But I think that there is no real, you don't get a gold star for like, Working yourself beyond where everybody else is, right? Like, yes, you were able to put some systems in place that allows you to achieve, but how much easier could things have been if you already had the supports in place? And so I think that that is really something that I would encourage people to think about because, again, my background is in college student mental health. And at Clark Atlanta University, I was the director of the Counseling Center, which also housed the Disability Resources Center. And a lot of students would come to college and feel hesitant around coming to get the resources they needed or the accommodations, extra time or, you know, private testing. But there is no honor really in like working yourself past the limit. Like life is already hard enough. Go ahead and use the supports that you need and the things that will make life a little easier for you.
00:06:43
Speaker 3: Thank you for that reminder.
00:06:45
Speaker 2: And I know we have an episode of TBGU that is about getting the resources in college.
00:06:51
Speaker 3: So you guys can look for that in the podcast feed.
00:06:55
Speaker 2: So this one animates me because it does feel like journalism is back. When people are discussing the hot article, I'm very excited because.
00:07:02
Speaker 3: It means that people are reading. In a New York Times.
00:07:06
Speaker 2: Magazine essay, Nicole Hannah-Jones revisits her decision to send her daughter to a predominantly black, lower-income public school in New York City as a part of her commitment to challenging educational inequality. Years later, her daughter says she feels the decision came at the expense of her own education, and Hannah-Jones reflects on whether prioritizing a collective ideal ultimately harmed her child. There has been a lot of discourse about this. And I think the conversation exposed how black parents have like.
00:07:40
Speaker 3: A really hard decision when it comes to education.
00:07:43
Speaker 2: And we kind of judge both sides of it. We've seen people criticize like black parents for allowing their children to grow up in like predominantly white environments and have those friends. And now there's the opposite side where she chose this collectivism by putting her daughter in a predominantly black school and And it did come at.
00:08:01
Speaker 3: The expense of her education.
00:08:02
Speaker 2: That's a conversation she's had with her daughter. I don't necessarily want to frame those two choices as a binary, but it does seem like that is a position a lot of people are in. And so the larger question is whether we're putting too much moral weight on either decision or any decision. And so my question for you is, how do Black parents weigh academic opportunity against racial and emotional safety of their children that they may lose in predominantly white environments.
00:08:34
Speaker 3: At least this.
00:08:37
Speaker 1: Is such a lot.
00:08:38
Speaker 3: And I agree with you.
00:08:39
Speaker 1: You know, I have been excited to see people like so engaged with the article. And we hope that they're actually reading the article to be able to kind of form opinions and discuss it. But it is exciting to see like a piece that people are, you know, really kind of wanting to weigh in on. And it really does, I think, speak to the impossibility of choices as Black parents. And parenting is such a difficult process for so many different reasons. And it feels like one of those things where you really only have one chance to not mess up. It just feels like there's so much pressure. And of course, being responsible for your young person's educational future, it feels like the thing that you never want to mess up, right? Like, how much can you go back and fix things if we make the wrong decision? And I think it really just speaks to the systemic issues that Black parents have in finding a school that is going to be a good fit for their kids, right? I think gone are the days where we think that any one school can give any child like all of what they need. Like we just talked about how much more information we have around like learning disabilities and how kids learn different and like being able to put them in schools where they actually can succeed given the curriculum and the teaching staff and like all of the supports. And no one school is going to be the best for even the same family of kids, right? Sometimes parents are making decisions about sending one kid to one school and one kid to a different school. And so I think when you think about the systemic issues that we know exist, especially for Black kids, I don't think it's fair, though it is a sad reality. It is not fair to ask an individual Black family to make the decision to try to like right the system, right? at the expense of their own child. But I think there are no easy choices, right? Like in some of the conversation I've seen is that there's this common refrain of like you pay for a tutor or you pay for a therapist. And I think that a lot of people feel that way, right? If you put them in a school where they are a minority, you know, like maybe it's a predominantly white school, then sadly, we know that there are lots of racist experiences that they can have that leave them traumatized much later in life, right? But on the other hand, do you put them in a school where maybe there are more kids that look like them, but for whatever reason, like the academic standards are not the same? That also feels like a difficult choice, right? And so I think it is just the kind of thing where you try to make the best decision that you can with the information that you have. But I also think an important piece is really making sure that you're listening to your child about like their experiences and what kinds of things they're feeling and always being open to reassess, right? Like maybe you make a decision now. And I think that's what she spoke to in the article, right? Like she made a decision when her child was earlier and has now made a different decision, right? And so I think that that's the best thing that we can do is kind of be open to listening to our kids' experiences and making different decisions if it feels like the situation calls for something different.
00:11:33
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
00:11:34
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we can say it in jest, but it's your parents' first time on earth too. And that doesn't mean they're going to make all the right decisions. You know, they may not even be from the city that you're going to school. And that was my experience. Neither of my parents were from DC. And so- it was like working out. I went to like so many different schools. I went to private school. I went to public school and it was more like, what is the best fit for Elise? And then there was a time in high school where I was like, I no longer want to go to school. And my parents were like, okay, well.
00:12:04
Speaker 3: We have to figure that out.
00:12:06
Speaker 2: And I ended up studying abroad, but it was what I needed as a child. And so I'm not a parent, but I do think about like, wow, this decision is a lot deeper than like, am I going to send them to a good school? Because you could go to a good school and have dyslexia and just generally struggle with math and still need a tutor outside of what is happening from 8 a.m. to 3 p.m. And so I love to see all the conversation that is about like, it is about your child and not necessarily about like one school being better than the other, even if that's the case. Right.
00:12:45
Speaker 1: And I would love to hear at least because you have several siblings and I'm guessing all of you didn't follow the same like academic path, right? Like you all went to different schools and like, can you say about like how your parents maybe made decisions about what was best for each of you?
00:12:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, when I went to private school, a big part of it was in private school, there was a very rigid way of doing things.
00:13:10
Speaker 3: And I would, I'm like a creative thinker.
00:13:12
Speaker 2: Like I'm always thinking about like, not necessarily how to get around the system, but how to make things work for me. And that was a very big tension being in private school. In addition to just like casual racism, that was very different for me coming from a predominantly black city. And so, yeah, I needed to go to a different school. My little sister also went to private school, but like we always knew that she was going to like have a career in the arts right now. She's in Paris in graduate school, studying fashion. So it was best to send her to a performing arts high school and to be around a place that would nurture her talents more. My brother is the only boy in my family. And he went to a public school where I thought there are a lot of black male teachers in DC. And I think that was very important for him. Obviously like, having a dad, but also realizing that you don't have any brothers. So like the way you need to be socialized is different. And so that's just how I think through how my parents may have made choices. I, I don't want to say like maybe more mature than my classmates, but I would kind of get annoyed with like distractions in high school, like, you know, riffraff. And it would really, I kind of feel like a nerd. Like I was there to learn, but I was. And at one point I went to my mom and I ended up saying like, I, and becoming frustrated with school because it is a chore for all of us.
00:14:43
Speaker 3: Like none of us want to be here. We're all 16. We'd rather be doing something else.
00:14:47
Speaker 2: But I don't, I feel like I'm being pulled in all these different directions and I'd rather just get the day over with and I'm looking for a new experience.
00:14:55
Speaker 3: And it was a State Department program. I ended up applying. It was free. And I went to school in Ghana for a year.
00:15:00
Speaker 2: And it was kind of having this open communication with my parents ever since I went to private school, being able to say.
00:15:06
Speaker 3: Like, I'm kind of unhappy here.
00:15:09
Speaker 2: And I think when I meet younger kids, even as big cousin Elise or auntie Elise, I'm like, it is important to listen to what they're saying because they know so much about.
00:15:21
Speaker 3: Their own experience.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I'm really blessed to have been able to have that open communication with my parents where it's like, yeah, I don't really like what's going on here. And this is the reality of the classroom situation outside of what test scores are or like what the prestige of the school is. And then I think just generally important, like for my family was to have black teachers. And that's kind of like a given growing up in DC. Like it's very common. Cause I know I hear people like, Oh, I had my first black teacher until I was like, Oh, that's all I kind of know. But I do think that was very important that you don't see, you know, the people who are teaching you to be very different from you.
00:16:00
Speaker 3: And it doesn't feel like punitive a lot of the times.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Because I could imagine that being a dynamic, like if I've only had teachers who aren't Black, it does not seem like sometimes like there's care. It seems like this more demeaning, even if that's not their intention, relationship with education. And so that was something that I always value. And I always saw it even in college classes. Are there opportunities? I didn't go to an HBCU to have Black professors in educators. So that's how I think through it. But circling back to what you said, someone I saw on threads was referring to the show Little Fires Everywhere. And I think it was an exchange between Kerry Washington and Reese Witherspoon. And her character was like, I made good choices. And Kerry Washington was like, no, you had good choices to make. And I think it is so much more complicated to then like, is a school good or not? And I'm glad that we're unpacking that part of it because I do think we shame people for one versus the other.
00:16:59
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. I mean, it's such a big conversation. Like there's so much nuance to be uncovered in this conversation. And there's so much conversation even just in general around like school choice and like people thinking about it and how can we make all schools good schools for, you know, our kids to go to. So, you know, I do hope that this is a starting point for a much larger conversation. More from our conversation after the break.
00:17:25
Speaker 3: Okay, so we have one more.
00:17:27
Speaker 2: And this is so funny because I'm currently, I have my iced coffee in the work recording. But I don't know if you've seen this conversation on whether it is unprofessional to bring coffee to a job interview. So a recruiter posted a TikTok sharing an observation that Gen Z candidates are arriving to job interviews with coffee.
00:17:50
Speaker 3: She says it.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: Reads too informal and like the candidate isn't taking the interview seriously. The argument here is that on one side, bringing coffee to an interview doesn't seem like anything of consequence or reflection of one's qualifications.
00:18:03
Speaker 3: It's kind of innocuous.
00:18:05
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, like the recruiter pointed out, some view it as a lack of professionalism about the care and the impression the candidate wants to make on the interview. And I'm just curious on your take.
00:18:16
Speaker 3: I feel.
00:18:17
Speaker 2: that my natural inclination would not be to bring a coffee to an interview.
00:18:22
Speaker 3: And I'm not like shaming anyone.
00:18:24
Speaker 2: Like I think a water bottle is one thing. I'm more like, it's not that serious. I can get it before, drink it or get it after. Also, I know a lot of like, we are a remote work environment. So a lot of people have not had these office experiences, but I can like look back to a lot of like early internship job interviews that I had where they kind of offered me like, do you want something to drink? And so that's kind of like the mindset that I have. But I'm curious if this is a debate.
00:18:51
Speaker 3: Of morality or generational divide. It kind of feels like a mix of both.
00:18:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree. And, you know, I'm glad you brought up the point around a water bottle, because I feel like I wonder if it would feel the same to these people who are saying this is too casual if they brought a water bottle.
00:19:08
Speaker 2: Right.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: Like, what is it about the iced coffee that indicates that they are not taking the interview seriously? I think it wouldn't even be something I would pay attention to, like because everybody kind of has something to drink with them almost all the time. And so I'm really curious. I would love to hear more about like why this registers as unprofessional or like too casual to the people. And if a water bottle feels the same way, because you're right, like it is common to open up an interview with like, oh, can I offer you something to drink or whatever? So why does the presence of an iced coffee indicate unprofessionalism?
00:19:42
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:19:43
Speaker 2: I find it to be very interesting because I can understand like you do not need the iced coffee. Like water is a need. Iced coffee is not. And I think what it opens up is like, how do we balance our decisions with like, what is the status quo versus like our individualism? Because I will say like telling someone, oh, you shouldn't bring an iced coffee to an interview. It doesn't necessarily feel oppressive, but I do understand how people want to like punctuate their personal freedom and like in their everyday life and their agency. And so I kind of do understand that. But I think a common criticism of Gen Z is like, we are always trying to find ways to express our agency and, environments that do have social codes and expectations. And I'm curious, like your view on that, because again, it's this, this balance of like, yeah, it's not that deep, but I do understand where people are coming from. But how does one kind of begin to think through, like, is this something like worth the fight? If I do hear these rules of these etiquette rules or rules of professionalism?
00:20:57
Speaker 1: Yeah. And this kind of feels like an extension of our conversation two weeks ago around the U.S. Open. Right. And like the social rules that govern certain experiences. And this feels similar to that. Right. And it feels like we are now starting to hear more and more about like this culture class between Gen Z and like. millennials and the boomers who are still in the workplace. And it feels like, you know, Gen Z is just coming in with a very different energy that I think will require those of us who are not Gen Z to kind of think about why we may be holding on to certain rules and expectations that govern like a workplace, right? Now, I do think if you are somebody who is looking for a job and, you know, we know the job market is very difficult, it may be important to you to kind of play the game, so to speak, a little bit to make sure that you can kind of get your foot in the door and you wouldn't want to necessarily do anything that kind of jeopardizes that opportunity, whether it seems like a silly thing to you or not. But I also think that if a workplace has these kinds of rules and expectations and it very much feels like this is not for me, I think that that is information for you. Right. Like if you know enough about yourself to know that you want to really exert agency and that feels really important to you in a professional setting, then this may be a good indication that this is actually not a good workplace for you. right? Because if the workplace is not going to change, then maybe you need to look at other kinds of places. But I do think it brings up a larger conversation as employers and as, you know, people who are not Gen Z to think about why we are holding on to certain rules, right? Like what does an iced coffee really indicate to us, especially if the person has like glowing recommendation letters and all of these incredible experiences, like does the presence of an iced coffee negate them actually being a valuable part of your team?
00:22:41
Speaker 2: That's something that I think about all of the time, especially being here like over five years and now having the opportunity to be able to like be in hiring discussions. It's like some of the things that we think matter don't really matter. Even like resume gaps. I know like, whoa, why do you have a gap on your resume?
00:23:01
Speaker 3: And it's like, is that really any of your business?
00:23:04
Speaker 2: Or even if it is, it's like not that serious if they can do the work. It could have been for like so many things. And I think what you said about my mom would always say this to me, like, you're interviewing the job too. And so if you feel like you're at a place where you can't step out during the day and get an iced coffee. And that's important to you, just like needing a quick little break. I think that's what that really represents. Or even just wanting to eat the foods and drink the things that are, you know, to a certain degree in the office. I do think it's worth considering like, yeah, maybe I don't need to work here. And so I do appreciate like my generation for pushing back on some of these things and saying like, hey, well, I have to work here too. So it does need to be a place, not necessarily where I feel like I can bring my full self. I know that's like a complicated phrase, but where I can, be human to a degree and not feel like I can't have.
00:24:00
Speaker 3: A beverage.
00:24:02
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly we want to stay hydrated.
00:24:05
Speaker 2: And like you need a little caffeine sometimes right well thank you so much Dr. Joy for this conversation I hope everyone who wants.
00:24:17
Speaker 3: An iced coffee today is able to get one.
00:24:20
Speaker 1: I'll end on that get yourself a little treat we approve of it yes Thank you so much for these topics, Elise. Another great roundup of topics. And if there are things that you would like for us to weigh in on, you can always send those to us at therapyforblackgirls.com slash mailbox. And until next time, take good care of yourself.
