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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective Podcast from Newstalk ZB. And I'm.
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Speaker 2: Concerned about the way we are. Now he's concerned about the way I feel.
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Speaker 1: Says I, I'm a rock and roll star. Yes, welcome back. This is the Parent Squad. I think it's safe to say that sometimes our guests choose the music. I'm going to guess, I might be surprised that my guest might have chosen this music, but I'm thinking, no, no, no. Anyway, this is the Parent Squad, and we want your calls, of course. Don't forget we've got the sports rap shortly before six with Billy Woodworth. But this is the Parent Squad where, of course, we cover all things parenting. We want you to join us with your thoughts and comments and experience on that magic number 0800 80 1080 in text on 9292. And look, we're going to have a chat about, you know, a few lessons that we, my guest, will have learnt about parenting over the past. In fact, she has spent, I won't say this yet because I'm about to introduce her, but we will start the conversation with just the discussing the transformation that happens when just people become parents and what it's like to manage the stress of modern day parenting. Are we setting unrealistic expectations of ourselves? But we'd love to hear from you on what is the thing you remember most or you think of if you reflect on your becoming a parent, because I still, I almost get emotional talking about this, because I've just been talking about it with Jenny, who I've said to Jenny Howell, I'll be introducing this to Tick, but when my wife gave birth to our first, our oldest daughter, and just watching the transformation, and Anne-Marie doesn't want me to discuss all the details of her parenting at all, because she's not on the show, but watching her just transition from from being an expectant mum to go through the whole childbirth thing to watching her become a mum is one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I wasn't anywhere near suddenly transforming into becoming a dad. But if you want to share your stories about what it was like when you became a parent, but what were the challenges for you? We'd love to hear from you because here to help, she has spent 27 years helping parents through the parenting place, a wonderful institution, and she's wrapping up the end of the year And she's a parent coach. She's written a great book. It's actually probably the most well-thumbed-through book on parenting called Kind, Firm, Calm. And it's Jenny Hale. Jenny, hello.
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Speaker 3: Hello, Tim.
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Speaker 1: Sorry I made you wait very patiently.
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Speaker 3: No, that's all good. Thank you.
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Speaker 1: You didn't request the Oasis song, did you?
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Speaker 3: No, I didn't.
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Speaker 1: No, it's Locke.
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Speaker 3: I'm leaning into it.
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Speaker 1: He's somewhat tragically an Oasis fan, and we have to go to management to get him to stop playing it every weekend. Not allowed to make any rude gestures with my guest in the studio there, Locke.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: Actually, do you remember, were you ready to be a parent when you became a mum?
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Speaker 3: Oh, Tim, I was so young. When I look back, I think, I didn't know a thing. But I was 22 when I had our first.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I had Michael at 22. I'd wanted to be a parent since I was about 17. So I was probably a little bit unusual that I was pretty keen to be a mum.
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Speaker 1: You wanted to have a family?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.
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Speaker 1: You know what? It's almost like, this is a funny thing, but I mean, we're human beings. We've evolved to procreate and to have relationships and things. And it's funny, we've almost got to a stage where you're almost apologizing for wanting to do something that was entirely natural. You know what I mean?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Yes, I was all in, but when I brought Michael home, I realized how little I knew. I was very novice. I mean, I was one of six kids, so I've got younger siblings as well, but I sort of don't remember taking care of them. So it was sort of starting from fresh, but I was keen and my husband was keen and we loved it and we struggled. We got We actually had a family that were just ahead of us or quite a bit ahead of us. They had their third child when we had our first. And I probably lent on them quite a bit to say, is this normal? What should you do? I remember going to the doctor to say, do you think I'm coming too often to see you? And he just handed me a book. which was called, Should I Call the Doctor? Which is his way of saying, yes, I think you are.
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Speaker 1: Should I Call the Doctor? That is quite funny. Well, actually, as you were talking there, the people you lent on, I mean, being especially a new mum, and let's not, you know, I mean, being a new dad's a big thing as well, but the physical job of being a mum in the early days as well. And if you didn't have Imagine being isolated and just a very difficult job to do without support.
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Speaker 3: Oh, you need your community. You need your parents. You need people who sort of do things without judging you or won't lecture you too much. And I had a lot of that. I had a good supportive mum and dad, even though they were sort of 70 kilometres away. And I read a lot and I talked to people. But I was also the anxious mum. I was trying to figure it out as I went. So, you know, it's a ball of emotions. I was excited. I was anxious. I was trying too hard to do it all right. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: All of those things. That's not the pressure of modern parenting necessarily you're describing. You're just talking about the pressure you put on yourself to be a great mum. Is that it?
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think most of us start out with this desire to do it really well, to be a really good parent, to love our kids. The thing is, is that when the child is is born, I think it's just a totally new game and you are put in a situation that you have never been put in before. So you might have run a company and kept your life organised and not had too many anger issues and you have a child and you can't get them to sleep or eat or they're a two-year-old and they're throwing tantrums. I think you really are tested and sometimes there's a bit of a mirror that that looks back at you and you think, oh, there's some unresolved stuff that I've got here. And I say to parents in coaching, I think parenting is probably the biggest invitation you'll ever get to grow.
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Speaker 1: And to know yourself, maybe. Because, I mean, you scoot through your youth and you do whatever, and then, I mean, I waited a long time to become a parent, so I scooted through most of adulthood. But actually, you do... Yeah, I mean, I can also think of moments when I don't think I was a great dad. But I mean, at least I took the time to stop. And sometimes now I just sort of think, oh, no, that's not good, Tim. You need to. It's usually to do with mood. But the one lesson I think I've learned is, well, my kids know, I don't hide my feelings with them. But in a way, like if I'm emotionally moved by something, you know, my daughter, I was watching something and she's like, are you crying again, Daddy? I was like, I think I said, shut up. And then I said, I'm sorry, honey. I wasn't coping with my feelings then.
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Speaker 3: That's beautiful, Tab, because that's what you've just done there is what we talk in parenting, rupture and repair. Parents are going to make mistakes. It's inevitable. We're going to shout at our kids and say things that we didn't really mean. And we'll have other things going on in our lives where it'll come into our parenting. And I think it's really good for us to learn to say sorry.
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry for shouting. You know, it's interesting about support. I think when I was a young, you know, when we first had our children, I mean, I looked to my wife, Anne-Marie, because she seemed to know a lot more about it than I did. She might say I should look to her still, because I'm a bit stubborn. But I've found that the community side of things is being a dad. I don't know, maybe it's just recently because of the encounters I've had, but I found that with teenage girls that I'm comparing notes with other dads at the, at the hockey pitch or the netball games. And actually I've really lent on that in those years and not because there's anything problematic. It's just you, but you realize is actually if you connect with people and just take the time to be matey at the end, there are some awesome dads who I've spoken to and who are, people just want to, do want to share experiences and talk and share experiences.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they do. And I think the, The relief is that you'll, if parents have been honest, they'll also share the hard stuff and stuff that's unfinished or they haven't resolved or whatever. And I think there's a lovely sense of, oh, I'm normal. You know, years ago when I ran the, it's an online course now, but it was the Strong Willed Child. The best part about that course was that parents would come into a room and there'd be 200 other parents who are all showing up because they've got a strong willed child. And it was like, The relief, I'm not the only one, because I think we are often feeling like, am I the only one who can't manage this?
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Speaker 1: As a strong-willed child, now, as a strong-willed child, is that a creation of the parents because you haven't been firm enough with them? Or is a strong-willed child a strong-willed child?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot of DNA in a strong-willed child, and it usually sits within a parent as well. It's a different form of strength, but I think if you've got a strong-willed parent, it's going to seep through into a child as well.
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Speaker 1: Here's another theory. I don't know if I've met any eldest children who are unreasonably strong-willed. I've wondered if it sometimes comes out in the next generation or something because, I don't know, there's something about the first child is on the journey with the parents. You don't have siblings to compare with. I don't know. Is that just a nonsense theory for me? I just like the sound of it. So, Tim, you're full of it.
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Speaker 3: I don't know my anecdotal research, Tim. I think that. Sometimes the firstborns are compliant and easy and sometimes they're stroppy and challenging and willful.
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Speaker 1: And then the next one comes along and goes, oh, thank goodness. Not like your older brother or sister. They've been a nightmare.
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Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. The role's gone. You know, in our family, my family growing up, I think the role of leader and naughty kids had sort of gone. And I kind of found a place as I think mum and dad need a little bit of a compliant child right now. I think you can sense sometimes what's a vacancy for a role in a family.
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Speaker 1: It's funny, I was on the, as you know, we've got the trains and everyone's riding the trains these days. And I must say there have been a few times, you don't want to be a judgmental parent, but there was some kid who was, I mean, they were jumping up on seats and if the train had lurched, they would have fallen out. But the parents just seemed to let this kid run roughshod around the cabin. And I was like, you could do it with a bit more firmness.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: A bit more firmness, I mean, but.
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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm a big believer in helping our kids learn to be really respectful around property. Yeah. but also doing it in a way where you're not a tyrant or sort of always growling at your kids. But property is one thing that children should learn to take care of, and that takes time to teach them.
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Speaker 1: I think the one I'm finding as kids get older, I think it's much easier these days. Oh, no, sorry, not these days. And you have to jump in if I say something that's nonsense, by the way. But I think it's easy to say no to a two-year-old. I actually found that much easier because they can be distracted I think the time when no means no is much harder when they've learnt to negotiate in their teenage years. I'm a bit useless. I've sort of got a no, but I've got a no which becomes not really, you know, it's, you know, can I go to this party or such and such? No, it's going to keep you up late. But such and such, Dad, it's on Friday, I'll get a... Or no and, oh, I'm useless.
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Speaker 3: No, I think you're right there.
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Speaker 1: It's difficult, isn't it? It is.
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Speaker 3: All of that negotiation, they're very skillful and they're very invested. And you can be put in the freezer for a long time.
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Speaker 1: What do you mean? By a child who won't talk to you.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, a teenager who's really offended at your no. And like you said, sometimes that no is, please just let it be. And where it they know the hesitancy and the lack of absolute backing that we've got. With the two-year-old, no will often mean very big feelings, tears and rolling around on the floor. But you're bigger and wiser and kinder and stronger and you can pick them up and you can distract them or you can move away from the thing they want or you can just settle them. But yeah, I think when you've got a teenager, the no becomes harder to... Back up.
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Speaker 1: And it's not, you might imagine that if you have a steady and strong no, I mean, we don't need to be, no is a negative word, but we're discussing the word no. But that it's important. And if you set the scene right when they're younger, then job done. But I mean, how important is it to have a firm no in the early days? Oh, it's really important.
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Speaker 3: And you're right, Tim. No is not your best word to use. But when you do use it, you have to back yourself. You know, you can say to a child who wants the TV on, that's a great idea as soon as you've given me your school bag or as soon as this is done. You know, you can say no without using the word no because no incites a fight, especially with a strong-willed child. But your children are doing research on you all the time. Yeah. And so when they know, and a two-year-old will know that your node doesn't actually hold any weight. They have worked it out by then that you are hoping that they forget or you can distract them or whatever. So I think that when you do decide that you're not turning on a screen or you're not able to give them the yogurt flavor they want or there isn't, it could be anything little.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: You can't have chips with your burger.
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Speaker 3: Well, that's mean.
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Speaker 1: Okay, we don't do that. Actually, that probably is a bit stingy.
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Speaker 3: So, yeah, I think that learning to back yourself is a really important thing and start early. Don't have lots of no's, but when you do, have the few of them stick to it, follow through, and it will give great clarity to your child and a great sense of safety because they're looking for your leadership.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, it's not so much about saying no, it's just letting your word be your word. Once you've made a decision on something, because it might be, yes, we are going to be going to such and such, and I know you don't want to go, but we're going to, you know, Nana's something. I don't want to have a crack at Nana. I'm just trying to think of a poor example.
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Speaker 3: Careful, Tim, I'm a Nana.
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Speaker 1: Actually, it's funny, the word granny, isn't it? Granny's something. Anyway, it's a distraction.
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Speaker 3: I'm Grandma.
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Speaker 1: Grandma. See, Grandma's... It sort of sits in the middle. Granny's a little bit Victorian. I mean, there's too many characters in fiction who start with the word Granny, isn't it? Anyway, okay, because I think one of the first struggles for parents at a guess would be, okay, you've made your claim. This is what's happening. As Mum and Dad said, this is what's happening. And these feelings come out and they just lose the plot. And the temptation to cave... is pretty blimmin' big. Oh, it is.
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Speaker 3: Nobody loves that territory where a child is very displeased, whether they're 2 or 12 with you, but they are offended and mortified. And so one of the big things parents need to learn is that your children will be disappointed. They need your support, but just hang in there. We're sticking to your word because it's actually a gift to give yourself and your children, really. Okay.
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Speaker 1: Okay. Hey, look, we'd love your calls on this. I mean, broadly speaking, we were just talking about the change at this, Jenny Hale's my guest, about, you know, what do you remember about the change you went through as a parent when you became a parent and the first biggest challenges of it? But also we're going to work through a few of the, over her period as a parent coach, Jenny has got some good rules. And when I, by the way, when I give her book a plug, I'm not giving it a plug because Jenny's asked me to. I seriously give it a plug because I think it's one of the best books I've seen on parenting and probably the most well-thumbed-through book on our bookshelf around parenting. So it's called Kind, Firm, Calm. I'm not sure where people get it from, Jenny.
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Speaker 3: Only at The Parenting Place. Really? Yep, parentingplace.nz.
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Speaker 1: There you go. We'd love to take your calls. Otherwise, Jenny and I have got a lot to talk about. It is, God, time is flying. It's 24 past five. News Talk ZB. This is the Parenting Squad with Tim Beveridge and my guest is Jenny Hale from The Parenting Place. You can Google parenting, it's just parentingplace.nz if you want to. There's some great resources there and she's been a parent coach for about 27 years. One of the other things we wanted to discuss, Jenny, was because of social media and all sorts of media where there's this pressure on parents because, you know, this is what I did for my, everyone shares the wonderful moments and there'd be parents who'd look at that going, oh my God, I'm just struggling to keep mind and body and soul together. How much, is there more pressure these days, do you think, on parents to be perfect?
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Speaker 3: Oh, heaps more.
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Speaker 1: Really?
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a lot of pressure because of those posts that people have where they're in Fiji or there's some amazing skiing trip or something where there's a pressure to even make memories. And the memories aren't just you going to Bunnings with a child and having a sausage on the way out. It's got to be big and fancy and a pressure to have an individual sport and a team sport and swimming and all these classes. And it's sort of like it's quite hard to be ordinary and just tootle along. I mean, years ago when our kids were little, I was under pressure then to have– our kids at more after-school activities, which, by the way, I think are wonderful, but parents are feeling this duty to do lots of them. So there's very little wriggle room for kids to just have some downtime. So there is a pressure to be doing lots with your kids. And I think there are times when, you know, I sit outside sometimes with our grandkids and I'm watching them. I've got a seat outside. I might have a cup of tea or a glass of wine and all I'm doing is watching them and they love it. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I think they're a lot of parents who'd hear you say that and would almost be weeping with relief because I think there must be a lot of parents who feel that pressure. And as I, I mean, I've talked about the holiday we had of a lifetime when my parents passed away, he used a bit of that to go for a skiing holiday in Europe. And I think I was at Well, I don't know. I kept it all mostly off the Facebook. But yeah, you do. I mean, I think everyone wants to show, look at the amazing time I'm having regardless.
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Speaker 3: We're just not good at balancing up the fact that you may not sort of think, well, that's a once in a lifetime.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: And sometimes you can get into the, just sort of that treadmill of feeling like you have to keep it up and then your kids pressure you because their friends are doing things. And I want to give parents permission slip to, Just take it a bit easier with their kids and just enjoy home and doing ordinary things and taking them for walks. I know they're going to complain about you taking them for a walk or a bike ride, but they nearly always love it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:59
Speaker 3: And it's so good for them. I think we've got to get our kids back in nature.
00:21:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, where does most of the pressure come from, do you think? Is it just from a bunch of sources. So you've got your own expectations, you've got friends who do these amazing things and you think, oh God, what did we do for the holidays? We just stayed at home and, you know, did a bit of baking and, actually these holidays, I mean, we, what did we do? I mean, I was working through, but yeah, I don't think we did anything specific. Oh, yes, sorry, sorry. There were a couple of birthdays. Oh my God, yes. And I had a surprise birthday party. So my wife did an amazing thing in the holidays. But aside from that, We sort of, in fact, yeah, the girls caught up with a couple of their uncles and things like that. And I actually think it was, I think that stuff really matters.
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Speaker 3: It does matter. Going to the beach or being with friends and family. I'm not against doing the spectacular and it's such a privilege when we can. But I think we've also got to ground our kids in the ordinary and the day-to-day stuff and not feel, I mean, the pressure is often comes from not only our friends, but we drive ourselves too. We're the ones who are saying, am I doing enough? Is this good enough? And I think we're beginning to turn around on that a little bit and say, yeah, I'm going to just be confident that my kids will do all right if they're not going to everything.
00:22:25
Speaker 1: Well, how do you balance that? Because they have their own social pressures and things that they want to do. I think the hardest thing for teenage girls anyway is to help them, because at the moment, with one of them, I'm trying to get her to make a decision not to do something, because I don't want to say no. I'm trying to point out, it's like you have this, this, this, this, and this, and in her case, this and this. I would like you to make a decision for yourself. I don't think it's a good idea. And I think I'm going to lose. But she's going to, it has to do with just burning the candle at both ends.
00:23:07
Speaker 3: And I think, in areas where it's not sort of dangerous, we're giving our kids agency, our teenagers agency, we're giving them the outline of the problem or keep these things in mind. And then I think we have to let them work it out.
00:23:23
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the big hurdles for parents. One is becoming a parent, but I think the hardest thing I find is to trust. For instance, we used to drop them off at the bus stop. Um, and now, um, they're at the age where they can make their own way down, but there was a, there's a stage when you're like, am I happy for them to be crossing a couple of busy roads and doing that on their own? That's a, that is a difficult thing for every parent.
00:23:47
Speaker 2: It is.
00:23:47
Speaker 1: And you just got to go, I mean, cause you said you were really, you wanted to look after every sort of, every need. How did you deal with, uh, okay, they've made a decision themselves. I have to really, I don't like it. I don't like it. Jenny, Jenny, don't, uh.
00:24:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:04
Speaker 1: Did you have to talk to us?
00:24:05
Speaker 2: I did.
00:24:05
Speaker 3: I had to really talk it through with myself and actually realise that this is actually a moment to let a child work it out a bit. I mean, it was friends who allowed our son to go. They were looking after them for a weekend. They went on a bike ride, a bike ride I would never have endorsed.
00:24:24
Speaker 1: Sanctioned.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: You know, but the sense of they had all the sort of checks and balances in place. So, you know, money for the phone back then and sort of some safety plans. And in terms of a child feeling capable and really cool about what they'd done, I just realised I'd been holding the reins too tight.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:24:49
Speaker 3: And sometimes we've got to give out. I mean, we don't just say, look, ride your bike. You've never been on a road before, but, you know, get to the dairy. We teach them in stages to do these things. But I think sitting on your hands is something every parent will have to do. Yeah. I mean.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Actually, my producer, actually, I think you've got some– you were going to talk about the perfection of also– I mean, there's shows like– I've never heard of Bluey, to be honest. But my producer, Lox, says, oh, my God, it's this parent where everyone's– it's this show where the parents are awesome. I mean, do– you'd have to tell me about it, but what's– do the TV shows where everyone learns the right lessons at the right time and does the right thing? I mean, are they– How helpful are they?
00:25:33
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about Bluey except that kids love it and it doesn't matter if you're 12 or 9 or 6 or 2, it seems to have hit the right spot. Occasionally parents are going to get, oh, yeah, I've shouted, you know, and they were sort of talking about shouting. I think the neat thing about Bluey is that the dad is really playful and it's such a great love language for kids. You don't have to be perfect, but if I said, Anything would I add to your parenting, Kitty? I'd say, yeah, be playful because it covers a multitude of the mistakes you're going to make. If you can be a bit ridiculous and have fun with your kids and, you know, let them make huts in the lounge and, you know, let them crawl all over you and, you know, you can be a fun parent or a playful parent, not 24-7, just some of the time.
00:26:22
Speaker 1: That's some of the tension in relationships because Dad– I'm just going to generalize. And I've heard it from mums who are like, oh, he's the one who gets to do all the fun stuff. And I'm the serious one. And there's a bit of resentment there, you know, sometimes you can get because dad's the one who comes home and, you know. I mean, both parents are working these days, of course, but one parent will be the fun one and the other one will be the strict one. And I mean, I guess each has to remind the other that got the other person's job they could help out with.
00:26:53
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that it is hard when you find yourself stuck in there. Oh, it looks like I'm the one who's got to get kids sort of fed and cleaned and into bed and the other parents, you know, racking them up. Which might have happened in homes, I know.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: Might have happened in mine, actually.
00:27:12
Speaker 3: But we do need, if you're not a playful parent, and I've had to work at this myself because my husband's been really playful with the kids and I wasn't. But I thought, actually, they love it. It's such a great way to connect to them. So I have to dip into a little bit of that. And I've asked him to dip into a little bit of the structure that I've had to carry. So no one wants to be shoved to the sort of edges of parenting.
00:27:34
Speaker 1: How did you do that in a way that went down well with Dad when you said, I know, but it is difficult. I know that my wife will have said that to me sometimes. It's like, you know, you really need to back me up on this stuff. And I've sometimes failed because I've thought, Well, actually, the questions around, it's that whole thing about what you allow them to do. And I'd be like, oh, I'm not pretty relaxed about that. But she's like, well, I'd like you to say this is the way it is. How did you have those conversations with her?
00:28:05
Speaker 3: Oh, not all of them went well, Tom. They didn't all go well. Timing is everything. You know, right in the heat of the moment is usually not a great time to bring out your little idea. But there were conversations to be had and feedback and, yeah, I think you grow through these things. But backing each other up is another really good idea. If you can support the other parent, even if you think, you know, I think that rule or I think your idea is a little bit wobbly or I'm not fully in support of that, it's actually more important for parents to be a bit of a unit and keep it sweet and support one another. In most things, of course, there'll be families where you just can't support what another parent is doing. But there are a lot of things that we could make easier for ourselves if we did.
00:28:54
Speaker 1: Actually, you know, the simplest thing I quite enjoy doing, it sounds terrible, but, you know, with... No, it doesn't sound terrible. I'm overstating it. But sometimes, like with boys, you know, the best thing you can do sometimes with a boy as mum or dad or whatever is to... do something together where you're not even like watching TV together, just being, being in the same room together and just doing, and I've actually noticed that I've, I've hardly ever watched TV with my daughters where I'm on the same planet as them because I'm like, Oh, what's the, you know, what's this, you know, what is this? Oh, there's a few, but recently it's funny. One of my daughters has started watching modern family and I was like, is this right for you? I'm not sure if this is, and God, it's so, And she introduced me to it. And I'm like, oh, this is quite funny. Who's that? Oh, what are they? And then now it's... sort of appointment viewing. If she's got it on, she knows that I'm going to come and sit next to her.
00:29:49
Speaker 3: I think watching TV with your kids is a really good thing to do. You're shoulder to shoulder. You don't have to be criticizing everything you see, but the odd comment might help sort of land something. So yeah. I remember asking a parent who was leaning towards sort of trying too hard to be a perfectionist. I said, ask your child what they'd like them to do, what they'd like to do with you. And this little guy said, he was about seven, he said, I just want mum to watch TV with me, which he found really offensive because she could do much better things than that. But that's all he wanted, company, your presence, you're quite close.
00:30:24
Speaker 1: Well, that's more than just sitting down. It's actually putting down all the stuff that mum or dad might have been doing. You're not on your phone. You're not in the kitchen. You're not rushing around if you're taking half an hour out or whatever.
00:30:35
Speaker 2: Yep.
00:30:35
Speaker 3: You're parked there.
00:30:36
Speaker 1: Family movie time. Actually, somebody's texted. This is quite funny. Cute. You need to sit and watch some Bluey. I'm 70 and love to watch. It makes me laugh and the grandchildren too. Sensible and the girls learn a lot. Is it a cartoon?
00:30:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to read it.
00:30:52
Speaker 3: Very, very clever cartoon.
00:30:53
Speaker 1: Is it? Oh, I'm going to.
00:30:55
Speaker 3: You're going to have to watch it.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: Locke's telling me I have to watch it. I don't think he's still of an age where he is still a kid, my producer. Sorry, Locke. You don't have to speak, Locke. That's fine. He's going to give me a hard time. Anyway, 20 to 6, Newstalk ZB, back in a tick. Yes, with Jenny Hale as my guest. And look, time is flying while we're having a chat about things. I want to touch on this thing that I think it's something children do when they've got something big to tell you and you're just hitting out the door and they say, oh, by the way, I failed my science test or something. Not that that's happened in my house. They're quite smug about science. But when they drop big news on you as you're leaving, is that their coping mechanism to let you know, but then I don't want to discuss it or what?
00:31:41
Speaker 3: Oh, it could be a great little way for them to say, I don't want to talk about it right now.
00:31:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker 3: Or you haven't got time. So, you know, I can mitigate the explosion or the lecture that's coming. But I think for some kids is that they bottle things up and it isn't really important to them and they do want you to.
00:32:00
Speaker 1: They just didn't know and then suddenly you're out the door and they're like, I've got to tell you.
00:32:04
Speaker 3: They're blurting it out and you sort of realise, oh, this is big. This is probably going to sort of either affect your day or it is something that needs attention. And I think that Often as parents, we can't attend to everything that comes our way. So it's really important to be able to recognize and say to a child, hey, this sounds important. And I want to talk about it with you. How about we make a time? And you actually put a note in your diary to say we're going to talk about this.
00:32:35
Speaker 1: Actually, the one that I have probably struggled with as a father is when I've got a meeting coming up for work I've got to do because I work from home and they want to dump some news on you. And it's like, how do I? Because all they see, because I work on my phone. I mean, I'll be writing notes on things. And all they see is me on my phone. And I must say, if they want to talk about something and it's the wrong time, it's like I can't. I feel terrible saying, look, I know it just looks like I'm on my phone having fun, but I need to do this right now. I do find those conversations. I find it hard to put something off that I know they need to talk about.
00:33:07
Speaker 3: But when you can do it in a way that says, I can see this is important to you, instead of just saying, I can't. Can't you see I'm finishing something?
00:33:14
Speaker 1: I'm working. Yeah.
00:33:15
Speaker 3: So you just signal that you've noted it is important and that you are going to make time to talk about it. And I don't think the delay for kids is as bad as we think it is.
00:33:26
Speaker 1: So actually, that's a lovely, just simple piece of advice. Instead of going, hey, look, I'm too busy. You don't say that. You say, I can see this. You really need to talk about this. And I know it's important to you. Let's make a time because I just have to get this done and blah, blah, blah.
00:33:43
Speaker 3: That says a whole lot more than, I haven't got time for this. Why do you always do this when I'm busy?
00:33:50
Speaker 1: Oh, God. I'm taking some notes on this. When did you work out? It went from the 22-year-old first-time mum. When did you decide that you wanted to get on helping people become parents? When did you feel you had a few clues about this?
00:34:07
Speaker 3: I think when I was teaching. I was a primary school teacher. I did a bit of early childhood. And when I saw the difference that parenting made to a child's readiness for school, how confident they were, you know, if they'd known about books and knew how to hold a pencil or a crayon, I thought, you know, there is a lot to be done that I'd love to do to help parents get their kids ready for school.
00:34:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:32
Speaker 3: So that was the first inkling that I had that I was kind of passionate about this. Yeah. And then I just, I got amongst people who are also passionate, Mary and Ian Grant.
00:34:42
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Well, you know.
00:34:44
Speaker 3: And went to seminars and stuff like that and thought, yeah, this is actually, you know how all of us, I think, have a gift or a kind of a calling to something where you think this is the stuff I want to do with my life.
00:34:57
Speaker 1: Well, isn't that amazing though? I think some people go right through their lives not feeling that. So to have found that something you thought, you know.
00:35:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:35:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel very blessed.
00:35:06
Speaker 3: Blessed and privileged that I've found something that I absolutely love. And I love talking to parents. I love meeting with them and them talking about the things that are dearest and hard for them to do. It's been a privilege to sort of be in that mentoring role for them.
00:35:21
Speaker 1: It's funny, I've quoted Ian Grant. I still remember this. I can't remember how many years ago he said it, but I like the one about conversations, always have conversations. And he said, because when... if you have conversations throughout your children's lives and make time for them, when they try to tell you to back off, Dad, he said, it's a great expression, he said, you've earned the right to speak into their lives. And I think that's, you know, it's funny, I've quoted that so many times on the show, but it's just.
00:35:52
Speaker 3: Such a truth, that one, is that little by little, you are kind of building up capital so that they are prepared to talk to you.
00:36:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a text for you. This is from Muz. He texts fairly regularly with all sorts of comments. Damn, Tim, she's good. That's about you, by the way. Muz loves you.
00:36:11
Speaker 3: Thank you, Muz.
00:36:13
Speaker 1: By the way, and again, Jenny doesn't say she wants me to promote her book, but if you are a parent out there who's looking for some really good practical advice on so many aspects of parenting, it's a really easy book to read. It's parentingplace.com. NZ, and it's called Kind, Firm and Calm, and Jenny Hale. Time's up. We've got to go. Well, I hope we'll manage to catch you and convince you to come back sometime, but lovely to see you again, Jenny.
00:36:43
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
00:36:44
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. We'll be back in a tick to wrap sport with Billy Woodworth in just a tick. This is Newstalk CB, 11 minutes to 6. For more from the Weekend Collective, listen or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Collective Podcast from Newstalk ZB. And I'm.
00:00:17
Speaker 2: Concerned about the way we are. Now he's concerned about the way I feel.
00:00:45
Speaker 1: Says I, I'm a rock and roll star. Yes, welcome back. This is the Parent Squad. I think it's safe to say that sometimes our guests choose the music. I'm going to guess, I might be surprised that my guest might have chosen this music, but I'm thinking, no, no, no. Anyway, this is the Parent Squad, and we want your calls, of course. Don't forget we've got the sports rap shortly before six with Billy Woodworth. But this is the Parent Squad where, of course, we cover all things parenting. We want you to join us with your thoughts and comments and experience on that magic number 0800 80 1080 in text on 9292. And look, we're going to have a chat about, you know, a few lessons that we, my guest, will have learnt about parenting over the past. In fact, she has spent, I won't say this yet because I'm about to introduce her, but we will start the conversation with just the discussing the transformation that happens when just people become parents and what it's like to manage the stress of modern day parenting. Are we setting unrealistic expectations of ourselves? But we'd love to hear from you on what is the thing you remember most or you think of if you reflect on your becoming a parent, because I still, I almost get emotional talking about this, because I've just been talking about it with Jenny, who I've said to Jenny Howell, I'll be introducing this to Tick, but when my wife gave birth to our first, our oldest daughter, and just watching the transformation, and Anne-Marie doesn't want me to discuss all the details of her parenting at all, because she's not on the show, but watching her just transition from from being an expectant mum to go through the whole childbirth thing to watching her become a mum is one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I wasn't anywhere near suddenly transforming into becoming a dad. But if you want to share your stories about what it was like when you became a parent, but what were the challenges for you? We'd love to hear from you because here to help, she has spent 27 years helping parents through the parenting place, a wonderful institution, and she's wrapping up the end of the year And she's a parent coach. She's written a great book. It's actually probably the most well-thumbed-through book on parenting called Kind, Firm, Calm. And it's Jenny Hale. Jenny, hello.
00:03:05
Speaker 3: Hello, Tim.
00:03:07
Speaker 1: Sorry I made you wait very patiently.
00:03:08
Speaker 3: No, that's all good. Thank you.
00:03:10
Speaker 1: You didn't request the Oasis song, did you?
00:03:12
Speaker 3: No, I didn't.
00:03:14
Speaker 1: No, it's Locke.
00:03:16
Speaker 3: I'm leaning into it.
00:03:17
Speaker 1: He's somewhat tragically an Oasis fan, and we have to go to management to get him to stop playing it every weekend. Not allowed to make any rude gestures with my guest in the studio there, Locke.
00:03:29
Speaker 3: Right.
00:03:30
Speaker 1: Actually, do you remember, were you ready to be a parent when you became a mum?
00:03:35
Speaker 3: Oh, Tim, I was so young. When I look back, I think, I didn't know a thing. But I was 22 when I had our first.
00:03:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:03:42
Speaker 3: I had Michael at 22. I'd wanted to be a parent since I was about 17. So I was probably a little bit unusual that I was pretty keen to be a mum.
00:03:53
Speaker 1: You wanted to have a family?
00:03:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.
00:03:56
Speaker 1: You know what? It's almost like, this is a funny thing, but I mean, we're human beings. We've evolved to procreate and to have relationships and things. And it's funny, we've almost got to a stage where you're almost apologizing for wanting to do something that was entirely natural. You know what I mean?
00:04:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Yes, I was all in, but when I brought Michael home, I realized how little I knew. I was very novice. I mean, I was one of six kids, so I've got younger siblings as well, but I sort of don't remember taking care of them. So it was sort of starting from fresh, but I was keen and my husband was keen and we loved it and we struggled. We got We actually had a family that were just ahead of us or quite a bit ahead of us. They had their third child when we had our first. And I probably lent on them quite a bit to say, is this normal? What should you do? I remember going to the doctor to say, do you think I'm coming too often to see you? And he just handed me a book. which was called, Should I Call the Doctor? Which is his way of saying, yes, I think you are.
00:05:07
Speaker 1: Should I Call the Doctor? That is quite funny. Well, actually, as you were talking there, the people you lent on, I mean, being especially a new mum, and let's not, you know, I mean, being a new dad's a big thing as well, but the physical job of being a mum in the early days as well. And if you didn't have Imagine being isolated and just a very difficult job to do without support.
00:05:35
Speaker 3: Oh, you need your community. You need your parents. You need people who sort of do things without judging you or won't lecture you too much. And I had a lot of that. I had a good supportive mum and dad, even though they were sort of 70 kilometres away. And I read a lot and I talked to people. But I was also the anxious mum. I was trying to figure it out as I went. So, you know, it's a ball of emotions. I was excited. I was anxious. I was trying too hard to do it all right. Yeah.
00:06:11
Speaker 1: All of those things. That's not the pressure of modern parenting necessarily you're describing. You're just talking about the pressure you put on yourself to be a great mum. Is that it?
00:06:18
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think most of us start out with this desire to do it really well, to be a really good parent, to love our kids. The thing is, is that when the child is is born, I think it's just a totally new game and you are put in a situation that you have never been put in before. So you might have run a company and kept your life organised and not had too many anger issues and you have a child and you can't get them to sleep or eat or they're a two-year-old and they're throwing tantrums. I think you really are tested and sometimes there's a bit of a mirror that that looks back at you and you think, oh, there's some unresolved stuff that I've got here. And I say to parents in coaching, I think parenting is probably the biggest invitation you'll ever get to grow.
00:07:07
Speaker 1: And to know yourself, maybe. Because, I mean, you scoot through your youth and you do whatever, and then, I mean, I waited a long time to become a parent, so I scooted through most of adulthood. But actually, you do... Yeah, I mean, I can also think of moments when I don't think I was a great dad. But I mean, at least I took the time to stop. And sometimes now I just sort of think, oh, no, that's not good, Tim. You need to. It's usually to do with mood. But the one lesson I think I've learned is, well, my kids know, I don't hide my feelings with them. But in a way, like if I'm emotionally moved by something, you know, my daughter, I was watching something and she's like, are you crying again, Daddy? I was like, I think I said, shut up. And then I said, I'm sorry, honey. I wasn't coping with my feelings then.
00:07:54
Speaker 3: That's beautiful, Tab, because that's what you've just done there is what we talk in parenting, rupture and repair. Parents are going to make mistakes. It's inevitable. We're going to shout at our kids and say things that we didn't really mean. And we'll have other things going on in our lives where it'll come into our parenting. And I think it's really good for us to learn to say sorry.
00:08:16
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for shouting. You know, it's interesting about support. I think when I was a young, you know, when we first had our children, I mean, I looked to my wife, Anne-Marie, because she seemed to know a lot more about it than I did. She might say I should look to her still, because I'm a bit stubborn. But I've found that the community side of things is being a dad. I don't know, maybe it's just recently because of the encounters I've had, but I found that with teenage girls that I'm comparing notes with other dads at the, at the hockey pitch or the netball games. And actually I've really lent on that in those years and not because there's anything problematic. It's just you, but you realize is actually if you connect with people and just take the time to be matey at the end, there are some awesome dads who I've spoken to and who are, people just want to, do want to share experiences and talk and share experiences.
00:09:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, they do. And I think the, The relief is that you'll, if parents have been honest, they'll also share the hard stuff and stuff that's unfinished or they haven't resolved or whatever. And I think there's a lovely sense of, oh, I'm normal. You know, years ago when I ran the, it's an online course now, but it was the Strong Willed Child. The best part about that course was that parents would come into a room and there'd be 200 other parents who are all showing up because they've got a strong willed child. And it was like, The relief, I'm not the only one, because I think we are often feeling like, am I the only one who can't manage this?
00:09:53
Speaker 1: As a strong-willed child, now, as a strong-willed child, is that a creation of the parents because you haven't been firm enough with them? Or is a strong-willed child a strong-willed child?
00:10:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot of DNA in a strong-willed child, and it usually sits within a parent as well. It's a different form of strength, but I think if you've got a strong-willed parent, it's going to seep through into a child as well.
00:10:24
Speaker 1: Here's another theory. I don't know if I've met any eldest children who are unreasonably strong-willed. I've wondered if it sometimes comes out in the next generation or something because, I don't know, there's something about the first child is on the journey with the parents. You don't have siblings to compare with. I don't know. Is that just a nonsense theory for me? I just like the sound of it. So, Tim, you're full of it.
00:10:48
Speaker 3: I don't know my anecdotal research, Tim. I think that. Sometimes the firstborns are compliant and easy and sometimes they're stroppy and challenging and willful.
00:10:58
Speaker 1: And then the next one comes along and goes, oh, thank goodness. Not like your older brother or sister. They've been a nightmare.
00:11:04
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. The role's gone. You know, in our family, my family growing up, I think the role of leader and naughty kids had sort of gone. And I kind of found a place as I think mum and dad need a little bit of a compliant child right now. I think you can sense sometimes what's a vacancy for a role in a family.
00:11:21
Speaker 1: It's funny, I was on the, as you know, we've got the trains and everyone's riding the trains these days. And I must say there have been a few times, you don't want to be a judgmental parent, but there was some kid who was, I mean, they were jumping up on seats and if the train had lurched, they would have fallen out. But the parents just seemed to let this kid run roughshod around the cabin. And I was like, you could do it with a bit more firmness.
00:11:42
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker 1: A bit more firmness, I mean, but.
00:11:45
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm a big believer in helping our kids learn to be really respectful around property. Yeah. but also doing it in a way where you're not a tyrant or sort of always growling at your kids. But property is one thing that children should learn to take care of, and that takes time to teach them.
00:12:02
Speaker 1: I think the one I'm finding as kids get older, I think it's much easier these days. Oh, no, sorry, not these days. And you have to jump in if I say something that's nonsense, by the way. But I think it's easy to say no to a two-year-old. I actually found that much easier because they can be distracted I think the time when no means no is much harder when they've learnt to negotiate in their teenage years. I'm a bit useless. I've sort of got a no, but I've got a no which becomes not really, you know, it's, you know, can I go to this party or such and such? No, it's going to keep you up late. But such and such, Dad, it's on Friday, I'll get a... Or no and, oh, I'm useless.
00:12:50
Speaker 3: No, I think you're right there.
00:12:51
Speaker 1: It's difficult, isn't it? It is.
00:12:54
Speaker 3: All of that negotiation, they're very skillful and they're very invested. And you can be put in the freezer for a long time.
00:13:03
Speaker 1: What do you mean? By a child who won't talk to you.
00:13:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, a teenager who's really offended at your no. And like you said, sometimes that no is, please just let it be. And where it they know the hesitancy and the lack of absolute backing that we've got. With the two-year-old, no will often mean very big feelings, tears and rolling around on the floor. But you're bigger and wiser and kinder and stronger and you can pick them up and you can distract them or you can move away from the thing they want or you can just settle them. But yeah, I think when you've got a teenager, the no becomes harder to... Back up.
00:13:45
Speaker 1: And it's not, you might imagine that if you have a steady and strong no, I mean, we don't need to be, no is a negative word, but we're discussing the word no. But that it's important. And if you set the scene right when they're younger, then job done. But I mean, how important is it to have a firm no in the early days? Oh, it's really important.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: And you're right, Tim. No is not your best word to use. But when you do use it, you have to back yourself. You know, you can say to a child who wants the TV on, that's a great idea as soon as you've given me your school bag or as soon as this is done. You know, you can say no without using the word no because no incites a fight, especially with a strong-willed child. But your children are doing research on you all the time. Yeah. And so when they know, and a two-year-old will know that your node doesn't actually hold any weight. They have worked it out by then that you are hoping that they forget or you can distract them or whatever. So I think that when you do decide that you're not turning on a screen or you're not able to give them the yogurt flavor they want or there isn't, it could be anything little.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: You can't have chips with your burger.
00:15:10
Speaker 3: Well, that's mean.
00:15:12
Speaker 1: Okay, we don't do that. Actually, that probably is a bit stingy.
00:15:17
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I think that learning to back yourself is a really important thing and start early. Don't have lots of no's, but when you do, have the few of them stick to it, follow through, and it will give great clarity to your child and a great sense of safety because they're looking for your leadership.
00:15:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, it's not so much about saying no, it's just letting your word be your word. Once you've made a decision on something, because it might be, yes, we are going to be going to such and such, and I know you don't want to go, but we're going to, you know, Nana's something. I don't want to have a crack at Nana. I'm just trying to think of a poor example.
00:15:56
Speaker 3: Careful, Tim, I'm a Nana.
00:15:59
Speaker 1: Actually, it's funny, the word granny, isn't it? Granny's something. Anyway, it's a distraction.
00:16:05
Speaker 3: I'm Grandma.
00:16:06
Speaker 1: Grandma. See, Grandma's... It sort of sits in the middle. Granny's a little bit Victorian. I mean, there's too many characters in fiction who start with the word Granny, isn't it? Anyway, okay, because I think one of the first struggles for parents at a guess would be, okay, you've made your claim. This is what's happening. As Mum and Dad said, this is what's happening. And these feelings come out and they just lose the plot. And the temptation to cave... is pretty blimmin' big. Oh, it is.
00:16:36
Speaker 3: Nobody loves that territory where a child is very displeased, whether they're 2 or 12 with you, but they are offended and mortified. And so one of the big things parents need to learn is that your children will be disappointed. They need your support, but just hang in there. We're sticking to your word because it's actually a gift to give yourself and your children, really. Okay.
00:17:02
Speaker 1: Okay. Hey, look, we'd love your calls on this. I mean, broadly speaking, we were just talking about the change at this, Jenny Hale's my guest, about, you know, what do you remember about the change you went through as a parent when you became a parent and the first biggest challenges of it? But also we're going to work through a few of the, over her period as a parent coach, Jenny has got some good rules. And when I, by the way, when I give her book a plug, I'm not giving it a plug because Jenny's asked me to. I seriously give it a plug because I think it's one of the best books I've seen on parenting and probably the most well-thumbed-through book on our bookshelf around parenting. So it's called Kind, Firm, Calm. I'm not sure where people get it from, Jenny.
00:17:41
Speaker 3: Only at The Parenting Place. Really? Yep, parentingplace.nz.
00:17:44
Speaker 1: There you go. We'd love to take your calls. Otherwise, Jenny and I have got a lot to talk about. It is, God, time is flying. It's 24 past five. News Talk ZB. This is the Parenting Squad with Tim Beveridge and my guest is Jenny Hale from The Parenting Place. You can Google parenting, it's just parentingplace.nz if you want to. There's some great resources there and she's been a parent coach for about 27 years. One of the other things we wanted to discuss, Jenny, was because of social media and all sorts of media where there's this pressure on parents because, you know, this is what I did for my, everyone shares the wonderful moments and there'd be parents who'd look at that going, oh my God, I'm just struggling to keep mind and body and soul together. How much, is there more pressure these days, do you think, on parents to be perfect?
00:18:37
Speaker 3: Oh, heaps more.
00:18:38
Speaker 1: Really?
00:18:39
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there's a lot of pressure because of those posts that people have where they're in Fiji or there's some amazing skiing trip or something where there's a pressure to even make memories. And the memories aren't just you going to Bunnings with a child and having a sausage on the way out. It's got to be big and fancy and a pressure to have an individual sport and a team sport and swimming and all these classes. And it's sort of like it's quite hard to be ordinary and just tootle along. I mean, years ago when our kids were little, I was under pressure then to have– our kids at more after-school activities, which, by the way, I think are wonderful, but parents are feeling this duty to do lots of them. So there's very little wriggle room for kids to just have some downtime. So there is a pressure to be doing lots with your kids. And I think there are times when, you know, I sit outside sometimes with our grandkids and I'm watching them. I've got a seat outside. I might have a cup of tea or a glass of wine and all I'm doing is watching them and they love it. Yeah.
00:19:54
Speaker 1: I think they're a lot of parents who'd hear you say that and would almost be weeping with relief because I think there must be a lot of parents who feel that pressure. And as I, I mean, I've talked about the holiday we had of a lifetime when my parents passed away, he used a bit of that to go for a skiing holiday in Europe. And I think I was at Well, I don't know. I kept it all mostly off the Facebook. But yeah, you do. I mean, I think everyone wants to show, look at the amazing time I'm having regardless.
00:20:23
Speaker 3: We're just not good at balancing up the fact that you may not sort of think, well, that's a once in a lifetime.
00:20:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:20:30
Speaker 3: And sometimes you can get into the, just sort of that treadmill of feeling like you have to keep it up and then your kids pressure you because their friends are doing things. And I want to give parents permission slip to, Just take it a bit easier with their kids and just enjoy home and doing ordinary things and taking them for walks. I know they're going to complain about you taking them for a walk or a bike ride, but they nearly always love it.
00:20:59
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:59
Speaker 3: And it's so good for them. I think we've got to get our kids back in nature.
00:21:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, where does most of the pressure come from, do you think? Is it just from a bunch of sources. So you've got your own expectations, you've got friends who do these amazing things and you think, oh God, what did we do for the holidays? We just stayed at home and, you know, did a bit of baking and, actually these holidays, I mean, we, what did we do? I mean, I was working through, but yeah, I don't think we did anything specific. Oh, yes, sorry, sorry. There were a couple of birthdays. Oh my God, yes. And I had a surprise birthday party. So my wife did an amazing thing in the holidays. But aside from that, We sort of, in fact, yeah, the girls caught up with a couple of their uncles and things like that. And I actually think it was, I think that stuff really matters.
00:21:49
Speaker 3: It does matter. Going to the beach or being with friends and family. I'm not against doing the spectacular and it's such a privilege when we can. But I think we've also got to ground our kids in the ordinary and the day-to-day stuff and not feel, I mean, the pressure is often comes from not only our friends, but we drive ourselves too. We're the ones who are saying, am I doing enough? Is this good enough? And I think we're beginning to turn around on that a little bit and say, yeah, I'm going to just be confident that my kids will do all right if they're not going to everything.
00:22:25
Speaker 1: Well, how do you balance that? Because they have their own social pressures and things that they want to do. I think the hardest thing for teenage girls anyway is to help them, because at the moment, with one of them, I'm trying to get her to make a decision not to do something, because I don't want to say no. I'm trying to point out, it's like you have this, this, this, this, and this, and in her case, this and this. I would like you to make a decision for yourself. I don't think it's a good idea. And I think I'm going to lose. But she's going to, it has to do with just burning the candle at both ends.
00:23:07
Speaker 3: And I think, in areas where it's not sort of dangerous, we're giving our kids agency, our teenagers agency, we're giving them the outline of the problem or keep these things in mind. And then I think we have to let them work it out.
00:23:23
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the big hurdles for parents. One is becoming a parent, but I think the hardest thing I find is to trust. For instance, we used to drop them off at the bus stop. Um, and now, um, they're at the age where they can make their own way down, but there was a, there's a stage when you're like, am I happy for them to be crossing a couple of busy roads and doing that on their own? That's a, that is a difficult thing for every parent.
00:23:47
Speaker 2: It is.
00:23:47
Speaker 1: And you just got to go, I mean, cause you said you were really, you wanted to look after every sort of, every need. How did you deal with, uh, okay, they've made a decision themselves. I have to really, I don't like it. I don't like it. Jenny, Jenny, don't, uh.
00:24:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:24:04
Speaker 1: Did you have to talk to us?
00:24:05
Speaker 2: I did.
00:24:05
Speaker 3: I had to really talk it through with myself and actually realise that this is actually a moment to let a child work it out a bit. I mean, it was friends who allowed our son to go. They were looking after them for a weekend. They went on a bike ride, a bike ride I would never have endorsed.
00:24:24
Speaker 1: Sanctioned.
00:24:27
Speaker 3: You know, but the sense of they had all the sort of checks and balances in place. So, you know, money for the phone back then and sort of some safety plans. And in terms of a child feeling capable and really cool about what they'd done, I just realised I'd been holding the reins too tight.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:24:49
Speaker 3: And sometimes we've got to give out. I mean, we don't just say, look, ride your bike. You've never been on a road before, but, you know, get to the dairy. We teach them in stages to do these things. But I think sitting on your hands is something every parent will have to do. Yeah. I mean.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Actually, my producer, actually, I think you've got some– you were going to talk about the perfection of also– I mean, there's shows like– I've never heard of Bluey, to be honest. But my producer, Lox, says, oh, my God, it's this parent where everyone's– it's this show where the parents are awesome. I mean, do– you'd have to tell me about it, but what's– do the TV shows where everyone learns the right lessons at the right time and does the right thing? I mean, are they– How helpful are they?
00:25:33
Speaker 3: I don't know a lot about Bluey except that kids love it and it doesn't matter if you're 12 or 9 or 6 or 2, it seems to have hit the right spot. Occasionally parents are going to get, oh, yeah, I've shouted, you know, and they were sort of talking about shouting. I think the neat thing about Bluey is that the dad is really playful and it's such a great love language for kids. You don't have to be perfect, but if I said, Anything would I add to your parenting, Kitty? I'd say, yeah, be playful because it covers a multitude of the mistakes you're going to make. If you can be a bit ridiculous and have fun with your kids and, you know, let them make huts in the lounge and, you know, let them crawl all over you and, you know, you can be a fun parent or a playful parent, not 24-7, just some of the time.
00:26:22
Speaker 1: That's some of the tension in relationships because Dad– I'm just going to generalize. And I've heard it from mums who are like, oh, he's the one who gets to do all the fun stuff. And I'm the serious one. And there's a bit of resentment there, you know, sometimes you can get because dad's the one who comes home and, you know. I mean, both parents are working these days, of course, but one parent will be the fun one and the other one will be the strict one. And I mean, I guess each has to remind the other that got the other person's job they could help out with.
00:26:53
Speaker 3: Absolutely. And I think that it is hard when you find yourself stuck in there. Oh, it looks like I'm the one who's got to get kids sort of fed and cleaned and into bed and the other parents, you know, racking them up. Which might have happened in homes, I know.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: Might have happened in mine, actually.
00:27:12
Speaker 3: But we do need, if you're not a playful parent, and I've had to work at this myself because my husband's been really playful with the kids and I wasn't. But I thought, actually, they love it. It's such a great way to connect to them. So I have to dip into a little bit of that. And I've asked him to dip into a little bit of the structure that I've had to carry. So no one wants to be shoved to the sort of edges of parenting.
00:27:34
Speaker 1: How did you do that in a way that went down well with Dad when you said, I know, but it is difficult. I know that my wife will have said that to me sometimes. It's like, you know, you really need to back me up on this stuff. And I've sometimes failed because I've thought, Well, actually, the questions around, it's that whole thing about what you allow them to do. And I'd be like, oh, I'm not pretty relaxed about that. But she's like, well, I'd like you to say this is the way it is. How did you have those conversations with her?
00:28:05
Speaker 3: Oh, not all of them went well, Tom. They didn't all go well. Timing is everything. You know, right in the heat of the moment is usually not a great time to bring out your little idea. But there were conversations to be had and feedback and, yeah, I think you grow through these things. But backing each other up is another really good idea. If you can support the other parent, even if you think, you know, I think that rule or I think your idea is a little bit wobbly or I'm not fully in support of that, it's actually more important for parents to be a bit of a unit and keep it sweet and support one another. In most things, of course, there'll be families where you just can't support what another parent is doing. But there are a lot of things that we could make easier for ourselves if we did.
00:28:54
Speaker 1: Actually, you know, the simplest thing I quite enjoy doing, it sounds terrible, but, you know, with... No, it doesn't sound terrible. I'm overstating it. But sometimes, like with boys, you know, the best thing you can do sometimes with a boy as mum or dad or whatever is to... do something together where you're not even like watching TV together, just being, being in the same room together and just doing, and I've actually noticed that I've, I've hardly ever watched TV with my daughters where I'm on the same planet as them because I'm like, Oh, what's the, you know, what's this, you know, what is this? Oh, there's a few, but recently it's funny. One of my daughters has started watching modern family and I was like, is this right for you? I'm not sure if this is, and God, it's so, And she introduced me to it. And I'm like, oh, this is quite funny. Who's that? Oh, what are they? And then now it's... sort of appointment viewing. If she's got it on, she knows that I'm going to come and sit next to her.
00:29:49
Speaker 3: I think watching TV with your kids is a really good thing to do. You're shoulder to shoulder. You don't have to be criticizing everything you see, but the odd comment might help sort of land something. So yeah. I remember asking a parent who was leaning towards sort of trying too hard to be a perfectionist. I said, ask your child what they'd like them to do, what they'd like to do with you. And this little guy said, he was about seven, he said, I just want mum to watch TV with me, which he found really offensive because she could do much better things than that. But that's all he wanted, company, your presence, you're quite close.
00:30:24
Speaker 1: Well, that's more than just sitting down. It's actually putting down all the stuff that mum or dad might have been doing. You're not on your phone. You're not in the kitchen. You're not rushing around if you're taking half an hour out or whatever.
00:30:35
Speaker 2: Yep.
00:30:35
Speaker 3: You're parked there.
00:30:36
Speaker 1: Family movie time. Actually, somebody's texted. This is quite funny. Cute. You need to sit and watch some Bluey. I'm 70 and love to watch. It makes me laugh and the grandchildren too. Sensible and the girls learn a lot. Is it a cartoon?
00:30:50
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to read it.
00:30:52
Speaker 3: Very, very clever cartoon.
00:30:53
Speaker 1: Is it? Oh, I'm going to.
00:30:55
Speaker 3: You're going to have to watch it.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: Locke's telling me I have to watch it. I don't think he's still of an age where he is still a kid, my producer. Sorry, Locke. You don't have to speak, Locke. That's fine. He's going to give me a hard time. Anyway, 20 to 6, Newstalk ZB, back in a tick. Yes, with Jenny Hale as my guest. And look, time is flying while we're having a chat about things. I want to touch on this thing that I think it's something children do when they've got something big to tell you and you're just hitting out the door and they say, oh, by the way, I failed my science test or something. Not that that's happened in my house. They're quite smug about science. But when they drop big news on you as you're leaving, is that their coping mechanism to let you know, but then I don't want to discuss it or what?
00:31:41
Speaker 3: Oh, it could be a great little way for them to say, I don't want to talk about it right now.
00:31:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker 3: Or you haven't got time. So, you know, I can mitigate the explosion or the lecture that's coming. But I think for some kids is that they bottle things up and it isn't really important to them and they do want you to.
00:32:00
Speaker 1: They just didn't know and then suddenly you're out the door and they're like, I've got to tell you.
00:32:04
Speaker 3: They're blurting it out and you sort of realise, oh, this is big. This is probably going to sort of either affect your day or it is something that needs attention. And I think that Often as parents, we can't attend to everything that comes our way. So it's really important to be able to recognize and say to a child, hey, this sounds important. And I want to talk about it with you. How about we make a time? And you actually put a note in your diary to say we're going to talk about this.
00:32:35
Speaker 1: Actually, the one that I have probably struggled with as a father is when I've got a meeting coming up for work I've got to do because I work from home and they want to dump some news on you. And it's like, how do I? Because all they see, because I work on my phone. I mean, I'll be writing notes on things. And all they see is me on my phone. And I must say, if they want to talk about something and it's the wrong time, it's like I can't. I feel terrible saying, look, I know it just looks like I'm on my phone having fun, but I need to do this right now. I do find those conversations. I find it hard to put something off that I know they need to talk about.
00:33:07
Speaker 3: But when you can do it in a way that says, I can see this is important to you, instead of just saying, I can't. Can't you see I'm finishing something?
00:33:14
Speaker 1: I'm working. Yeah.
00:33:15
Speaker 3: So you just signal that you've noted it is important and that you are going to make time to talk about it. And I don't think the delay for kids is as bad as we think it is.
00:33:26
Speaker 1: So actually, that's a lovely, just simple piece of advice. Instead of going, hey, look, I'm too busy. You don't say that. You say, I can see this. You really need to talk about this. And I know it's important to you. Let's make a time because I just have to get this done and blah, blah, blah.
00:33:43
Speaker 3: That says a whole lot more than, I haven't got time for this. Why do you always do this when I'm busy?
00:33:50
Speaker 1: Oh, God. I'm taking some notes on this. When did you work out? It went from the 22-year-old first-time mum. When did you decide that you wanted to get on helping people become parents? When did you feel you had a few clues about this?
00:34:07
Speaker 3: I think when I was teaching. I was a primary school teacher. I did a bit of early childhood. And when I saw the difference that parenting made to a child's readiness for school, how confident they were, you know, if they'd known about books and knew how to hold a pencil or a crayon, I thought, you know, there is a lot to be done that I'd love to do to help parents get their kids ready for school.
00:34:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:32
Speaker 3: So that was the first inkling that I had that I was kind of passionate about this. Yeah. And then I just, I got amongst people who are also passionate, Mary and Ian Grant.
00:34:42
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Well, you know.
00:34:44
Speaker 3: And went to seminars and stuff like that and thought, yeah, this is actually, you know how all of us, I think, have a gift or a kind of a calling to something where you think this is the stuff I want to do with my life.
00:34:57
Speaker 1: Well, isn't that amazing though? I think some people go right through their lives not feeling that. So to have found that something you thought, you know.
00:35:04
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:35:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel very blessed.
00:35:06
Speaker 3: Blessed and privileged that I've found something that I absolutely love. And I love talking to parents. I love meeting with them and them talking about the things that are dearest and hard for them to do. It's been a privilege to sort of be in that mentoring role for them.
00:35:21
Speaker 1: It's funny, I've quoted Ian Grant. I still remember this. I can't remember how many years ago he said it, but I like the one about conversations, always have conversations. And he said, because when... if you have conversations throughout your children's lives and make time for them, when they try to tell you to back off, Dad, he said, it's a great expression, he said, you've earned the right to speak into their lives. And I think that's, you know, it's funny, I've quoted that so many times on the show, but it's just.
00:35:52
Speaker 3: Such a truth, that one, is that little by little, you are kind of building up capital so that they are prepared to talk to you.
00:36:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a text for you. This is from Muz. He texts fairly regularly with all sorts of comments. Damn, Tim, she's good. That's about you, by the way. Muz loves you.
00:36:11
Speaker 3: Thank you, Muz.
00:36:13
Speaker 1: By the way, and again, Jenny doesn't say she wants me to promote her book, but if you are a parent out there who's looking for some really good practical advice on so many aspects of parenting, it's a really easy book to read. It's parentingplace.com. NZ, and it's called Kind, Firm and Calm, and Jenny Hale. Time's up. We've got to go. Well, I hope we'll manage to catch you and convince you to come back sometime, but lovely to see you again, Jenny.
00:36:43
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
00:36:44
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. We'll be back in a tick to wrap sport with Billy Woodworth in just a tick. This is Newstalk CB, 11 minutes to 6. For more from the Weekend Collective, listen or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
