Nathan Gray | MeshComm Engineering

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Welcome to the Milcom Founders Podcast,
where we champion and celebrate

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military community business founders.

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In each episode, we will talk with the
Milcom business founder to learn how

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they work through various obstacles and
opportunities in business and in life.

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I'm your host, Rod Loges.

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Let's meet today's guest.

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Today I'm excited to introduce you to
Nathan Gray, an army combat veteran

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who served our country worldwide,
including deployments in South Korea

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and Iraq where he specialized as
an electronic warfare technician.

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After transitioning from military
service, Nate founded mesh com

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engineering in Johnstown, Colorado.

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His company mission is to connect
the world to solve complex human

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and environmental challenges.

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Nate's commitment to service
extends beyond his business.

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Nate and I work together in Bunker Labs
and now the IVM Math Ambassadors Program.

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I've really enjoyed getting to
know Nate over the past year

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and a half through that program.

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It's been great to get to know you, Nate.

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Welcome Nate.

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Let's start with your name,
rank, and serial numbers.

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Tell us about you.

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We'll, we will get into business
in a second, I wanna know

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about you and who you are.

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My name is Nate Gray.

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I am the founder of Mesh Comm Engineering.

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I really am a very
service oriented person.

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My joy in life comes out of seeing
other people succeed, seeing other

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people get through the challenges
that they face, and I really love

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service from that perspective.

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I have a large family, which a lot
of people tend to raise eyebrows out.

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I have six children, one son
and five daughters, my oldest

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is 26, my youngest is 15.

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Wow.

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15 going on one, I think.

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Yeah.

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Six kids within 11 years.

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Wow.

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It's honestly a lot of fun.

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My oldest son is married,
he's got two twin daughters.

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They are such a blast to be around,
and so yeah, I. We really love being

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together and we really love helping
each other out and working through the

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challenges that I think every family has.

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And we're no different than anybody else.

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We have our challenges, right?

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I think the thing that I've learned
is that what really brings me joy

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in life isn't money, isn't the
tangibles in the world, it's the

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interactions that I get with people.

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We recently had that a fly in.

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As ambassadors you mentioned, we're both
in the Ambassador program and I think

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the thing that I loved the most about
this last fly on was I had an opportunity

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to reconnect with several individuals
that had been going through some fairly

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tough times in their lives and really
had some good in-depth conversations

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with them and really just got to know
them a little bit better and offer some

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perspectives and some things like that.

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And that was honestly
the highlight of my week.

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Out there, learned a lot, had a
lot of great opportunities, but the

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opportunity to serve and to really
be a part of somebody's life rather

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than just be an associate, I think
was actually a big highlight for me.

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That's a great insight.

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I think the Ambassador program
with IVMF is exactly right.

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It's about building like everything is
about building those relationships, not

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just the connections are just touching.

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Intertwining interweaving
is the relationship and how

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do you make that happen?

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That's a really good insight
you could share with me.

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What's something you'd
like to do outside work?

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I think like many entrepreneurs
out there, I have many interests.

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Some of the things I really love
doing are, I love trail running.

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I love rock climbing, bouldering.

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I'm not super great at either of those,
but I really enjoy getting outside.

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I love hiking, backpacking,
getting out in nature.

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Anything that gets me outside
is something I really enjoy.

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I am learning as I get older.

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I'm not so much of a fan of the
cold weather, but I guess we close

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to the mountains and I, I'll
tolerate it to get outside.

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That's fine.

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But really those are
some of my big interests.

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I also enjoy astronomy.

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I've got a telescope that I love to get
out and look at things like the eclipses

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and planets and things like that.

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So how far outside, like
close to Denver do you live?

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, it used to be a small
town in the country.

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It's now getting absorbed into
the Denver metropolitan area.

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I'm about an hour north of Denver.

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It's a little town called Johnstown,
but it's not quite so little anymore.

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It's grown fairly significantly.

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And I really enjoy being, on
the outside of the city, being able

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to get access to the city but not
actually having to live in the city.

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And, so I really enjoy the pieces
altitude that kind of comes with living

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in the slower area of life, but then
being able to get access to the amenities

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of what a city can bring as well.

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It's a perfect balance for me.

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Absolutely.

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My wife has a great saying.

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She says it's nice to be close to
the crazy, but not in the crazy.

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That's what we have in
Washington, DC area too.

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So definitely can
understand that's for sure.

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The sad thing is, you have to drive
to the traffic, into the crazy, so

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yes, that's very true.

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So Nate, what's a personal challenge that
you would feel comfortable sharing that

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you've gone through in your own life?

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I'll talk about something.

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I think that might be a lot really
difficult to talk about for, from a

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lot of people, as you've mentioned,
I did spend 11 years in the military.

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I did deploy Korea and Iraq.

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When I was in Iraq, I did go through
some experiences that, were challenging

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in including, an evening where.

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We came under indirect fire and
the vehicle I was in was blown up.

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Went through some challenges with that.

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What I did not realize after that
was what that was going to bring

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to me as I reintegrated with my
family when I came home from Iraq.

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And then as I started the business,
what the stress of starting a

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business was going to do to me
from a mental health perspective.

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And I think that's something that,
when I was younger I was like,

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oh, there's nothing wrong with me.

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There's, I'm gonna be just fine.

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And, but if you talk to my wife, when
I came home from Iraq, I was a mess.

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And I did not wanna admit
that it was a really difficult

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transition for our family.

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When I look back at that now.

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Realizing what my family went through,
we should have had a lot more help than

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we had, and I just didn't even know
that I needed it at that point in time.

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And, from two perspectives.

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One, the Army didn't wanna admit that
I needed it when I got out because

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they, they did not want to diagnose
anybody with PTSD at that point in time.

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And the second thing is I didn't
want to admit to myself that I

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actually needed some help with
some stuff, and that was that.

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That was actually a pretty long journey
for me and really didn't come to a head

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until a couple years into starting the
business when some things became really

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stressful and I realized that I had a
really bad problem and I was in a really

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dark place and nearly walked away from
everything and so there's some real

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challenges, like they come from that.

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Thank goodness I had some good friends
around me who saw what was going on.

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And was able to help me get to get
the right kind of help into my life

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and help me get back on track.

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And honestly, I have to credit the VIR
program through Bunker Labs to some

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extent here too, because it was about
this time that I was really starting

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to hit the climax of some of this
stuff and having others around me who

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were going through, trying to start
their businesses up experiencing similar

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stress, really helped me understand
that I wasn't alone in my struggle.

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And actually, there were a
couple other folks that I think

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had it way worse than I did.

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Way more challenging experiences
than what I ever went through.

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I consider myself as really like
on the edge of what I think a lot

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of people experienced out there
and others went through some things

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way harder than I did, and were
dealing with way bigger challenges.

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And so it really kinda helped me
put some things into perspective.

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Not to say that I wasn't dealing
with stuff and that I didn't need

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help, I absolutely did, but also
helped me understand that, hey, look,

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there are other opportunities here
that I can actually serve and help.

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And at least in this case, I have a way
to relate to somebody that's going through

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this because I some similar things.

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And so that actually was really good for
me and it was a turning point for me.

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One of the things that I realized in this
process was that the best way for me to

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work through this was actually to serve.

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Then I go of myself.

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And so I found that when I was so
focused on the business and nothing

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else, and I wasn't there for my family
and I wasn't there for my friends and

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wasn't there to help be available to
serve others, that actually was far

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more damaging to me from a mental
health perspective than anything else.

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Yeah.

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God bless you and thank you
for having the courage to.

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Go through all that and to share that.

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I think that it's interesting,
business can be a way to serve and

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it is a way to serve and not just
ourselves, but our clients, our team

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members, our family our community.

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And it's wonderful to hear that you've
also experienced that same type of thing.

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I think there's a realization that kind
of comes when you start business, right?

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You're taking a responsibility on
you that is much bigger, right?

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You're now no longer responsible
for just yourself and your family.

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You're also now responsible for those
who you work for, your customers, the

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impact you're trying to make in the world.

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You have decided to take on
all of this responsibility.

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And if your own ation for doing that
is because I want to get rich, I think

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you're gonna be really disappointed.

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A hundred percent.

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Yeah.

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It's about helping and serving
everyone, all your stakeholders work

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with you and if you're not helping
them all win what's the point?

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Yeah, that's right.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Thank you again.

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So with the military to business
transition, what's one or two

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concepts or ideas or insights,
Nate, that you've seen that you use?

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Business that you rely on business.

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I think one of them is in the military
you don't quit till the mission's done.

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That's just one of those things that
you just, it gets drilled into you.

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I think the same thing
applies in business.

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Just the persistence that you gain
in the military, the figure out,

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okay, maybe the first idea for how
to accomplish what you needed to

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accomplish didn't work, but let's adapt
and overcome, and so there's that.

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That mantra that I grew up with in the
military that I think really applies

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well in business because no plans
survives first contact with the enemy.

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It's the same thing with business, right?

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Your first idea doesn't work, usually
requires some modification, and that

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requires you to go out and talk to
people and talk with customers, and

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it really understand what's going on.

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So that you can truly solve the problem
that needs to be solved out there.

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And this might lead a little bit to
some of the things we wanna talk about

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later here in a minute, but I think
one of the biggest skills really,

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that I think has been most valuable
to me is just that persistence.

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And then beyond that, I think the other
thing that the military is really good

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at is instilling leadership ethos, a
servant leadership ethos into you at a

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very young age, starting from when you
just start to join the military, even

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in basic training, the leadership value.

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Of honor and selfless
service and so forth.

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Those things come through right from day
one, and they're really embodied in all of

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the training that you have going forward.

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And I think those are really important
to emulate as a leader, because if you're

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gonna take on the responsibility to run
a business, you're gonna be looked to for

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how are we going to set the culture in
our business that, how are we going to.

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Interact with our customers, how
are we gonna treat each other?

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All of that stuff happens based off of how
you decide to operate inside the business.

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That's right.

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Justin, could you talk
about service earlier?

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And it just really came to mind how
many of the veteran community give back.

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It's almost in our nature, how do we find
our unique way as a veteran to give back?

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Yeah.

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And so it's really interesting
that you highlight that.

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It's, I think it's an important
piece of the healing of the

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understanding is to give back.

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So that's amazing.

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That's really cool.

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Part of every one of our journey to become
better and probably, to some extent, heal.

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Yeah.

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And it's also one of the
insight, what was that?

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You talk about your
friends and your family.

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For me, I always come down this
silly little saints, like one

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is adapt, improvise, overcome.

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00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:32,240
Okay.

232
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,080
Where do I learn that?

233
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,860
This little green organization called the
Army one that I really rely on is, to me

234
00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:38,870
the life is about our faith, our family.

235
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,530
And our friends, if we go back to those
three core things, how good life can be

236
00:10:43,620 --> 00:10:45,935
is, so yeah, I definitely get that and

237
00:10:46,205 --> 00:10:48,365
thank gosh we have those in our lives.

238
00:10:48,395 --> 00:10:51,965
And honestly, as I look back, my
experience over last five years alone,

239
00:10:51,965 --> 00:10:55,460
just trying to get this business off the
ground, I. If I didn't have my faith,

240
00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:58,670
if I didn't have my friends and my
family, I wouldn't be where we are to.

241
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:59,810
We wouldn't be talking today.

242
00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:00,140
Yeah.

243
00:11:00,145 --> 00:11:00,725
God bless you.

244
00:11:00,795 --> 00:11:01,085
Yeah,

245
00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:02,930
so oof, powerful stuff.

246
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:04,010
Let's talk about your business.

247
00:11:04,010 --> 00:11:05,510
Why did you start Mesh Comp?

248
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,230
That's a great question sometimes, but
I wonder really, it came down to, I've

249
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:14,490
been interested in communications my
whole life since I was a young kid.

250
00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:16,830
If you wanna know how weird
and crazy I really am.

251
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:17,700
I was that kid.

252
00:11:18,030 --> 00:11:21,660
Who started teaching himself
how to code at age nine.

253
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:22,950
'cause my dad brought home a computer.

254
00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:24,090
I said, wow, that looks really cool.

255
00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:25,230
I wanna do some stuff with that.

256
00:11:25,290 --> 00:11:30,600
And then I would go to Radio Shack
and buy engineers mini notebooks so I

257
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,990
could teach myself enough electronics
to build communications circuits.

258
00:11:34,050 --> 00:11:37,530
And my friend and I experiment
with communications all the time.

259
00:11:37,785 --> 00:11:40,905
We have these walkie talkies, we'd walk
out figure exactly how we could get them

260
00:11:40,905 --> 00:11:42,495
to reach so we could still communicate.

261
00:11:42,495 --> 00:11:47,445
And when we wanted to use them to
get past our curfews at night, we

262
00:11:47,445 --> 00:11:48,825
couldn't get enough range out of them.

263
00:11:48,825 --> 00:11:52,905
But his dad was a, was an outfitter
and had the CB radio station and he

264
00:11:52,905 --> 00:11:54,405
had a couple of handheld CB radios.

265
00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:56,265
So one night he's here's this handheld.

266
00:11:56,265 --> 00:11:57,585
He gave me the five point hand held.

267
00:11:57,705 --> 00:11:59,655
He had the base station at his
house and we started talking

268
00:11:59,655 --> 00:12:00,645
back and forth to each other.

269
00:12:00,695 --> 00:12:03,425
What we didn't realize is that
every trucker in the area is

270
00:12:03,425 --> 00:12:05,195
also on the, on those CB radios.

271
00:12:05,195 --> 00:12:08,015
We started talking to truckers and
one night we were doing that and

272
00:12:08,015 --> 00:12:09,605
we had hit an atmospheric bounce.

273
00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:12,845
We didn't realize what was going on, but
we were actually talking to, so I grew

274
00:12:12,845 --> 00:12:16,955
up in just outside of Boise, Idaho, a
little town called Eagle, and we started

275
00:12:16,955 --> 00:12:21,005
talking to truckers that were crossing on
the highway from Oregon into California.

276
00:12:21,065 --> 00:12:22,415
One night and we were like, wow.

277
00:12:22,415 --> 00:12:24,575
So 1200 miles away from
where we're at, right?

278
00:12:24,605 --> 00:12:26,615
And so we're having this conversation.

279
00:12:26,645 --> 00:12:28,445
My parents didn't realize
any of this was going on.

280
00:12:28,445 --> 00:12:30,065
I told them this years later,
and they're like, what?

281
00:12:30,335 --> 00:12:31,955
But this is what my and I were doing.

282
00:12:32,005 --> 00:12:34,869
And and the thing that has always
stuck with me is I went into the

283
00:12:34,869 --> 00:12:38,849
military and I, obviously I was in the
electronic warfare stuff, and one of

284
00:12:38,849 --> 00:12:42,270
the biggest challenges in the world
is like, how do I get connected when

285
00:12:42,270 --> 00:12:43,920
I'm outside of a city where real.

286
00:12:44,165 --> 00:12:46,585
To be able to talk to or
communicate critical information.

287
00:12:46,585 --> 00:12:47,785
How do I actually do that?

288
00:12:47,785 --> 00:12:50,485
And the military has its systems
and ways of doing that, but when

289
00:12:50,485 --> 00:12:53,665
you get outside the military in the
civilian world, there's still lots

290
00:12:53,665 --> 00:12:54,955
of needs for that kind of stuff.

291
00:12:54,955 --> 00:12:57,175
And there's just not a
seamless way of doing that.

292
00:12:57,295 --> 00:13:02,125
And the reason why I founded my business
is because I wanted to make that seamless.

293
00:13:02,125 --> 00:13:05,425
I wanted to combine the technologies
that we have, the capabilities with

294
00:13:05,425 --> 00:13:06,805
satellite communications, with cellular.

295
00:13:06,805 --> 00:13:08,845
I wanted to get that to
be at much lower cost.

296
00:13:08,985 --> 00:13:12,325
Solution and integrate those
together so that we could really

297
00:13:12,325 --> 00:13:16,435
open the door to a huge number of
applications that are very difficult

298
00:13:16,435 --> 00:13:18,444
to tackle today at a reasonable cost.

299
00:13:18,789 --> 00:13:22,869
But that anything from monitoring well and
irrigation systems to water tanks on farms

300
00:13:22,869 --> 00:13:24,540
to, communications inside a vehicle.

301
00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:27,030
One of my customers right now, one
of his biggest complaints is if

302
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:30,750
I'm driving from point A to point B
and I'm in a rural area, two thirds

303
00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:31,860
of that, I'm outside of coverage.

304
00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:34,230
So I'm pulled over on having
conversation with my customer.

305
00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:36,420
'cause I know if I go down
this hill, I'm gonna be outta

306
00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:37,440
coverage for the next 30 minutes.

307
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,930
So I've gotta sit here for two
hours, have these conversations

308
00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:42,390
before I lose coverage and get to
the place I actually need to go.

309
00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:44,030
He's like they just talk.

310
00:13:44,030 --> 00:13:48,220
And so the foundation of mesh
com engineering in our ethos

311
00:13:48,220 --> 00:13:49,570
is really just to connect.

312
00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:51,100
Don't worry about where you're at.

313
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:52,930
Don't worry about the
technology behind it.

314
00:13:52,930 --> 00:13:55,090
We want to make that as
seamless as possible.

315
00:13:55,090 --> 00:13:56,140
We just want you to connect.

316
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:56,530
Got it.

317
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,970
So me gimme the elevate
the pitch or mesh com.

318
00:14:00,970 --> 00:14:03,190
I'm not putting this thought,
but maybe I just did.

319
00:14:03,250 --> 00:14:06,010
Basically, essentially it's we work with
businesses and organizations that are.

320
00:14:06,035 --> 00:14:08,975
Great and rural and remote areas
that don't have great cellular

321
00:14:08,975 --> 00:14:11,165
or internet connectivity and
we help you solve that problem.

322
00:14:11,285 --> 00:14:11,585
Got it.

323
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,360
And you have a device or is it a service
or combination of a service and a product.

324
00:14:16,420 --> 00:14:20,140
So that can be everything from, we can
help you get managed satellite services

325
00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:22,360
onto into a business at your location.

326
00:14:22,450 --> 00:14:25,810
That could be, I need to be able to
get information off of this water

327
00:14:25,810 --> 00:14:29,290
tank on my farm so that I don't
use operations when that happens.

328
00:14:29,290 --> 00:14:31,360
And so we have a product that
will actually help you do that.

329
00:14:31,420 --> 00:14:34,090
And the idea is that it doesn't
really matter whether or not you've

330
00:14:34,090 --> 00:14:35,320
got cellular coverage or not.

331
00:14:35,485 --> 00:14:37,645
We will be able to help
you get that connected.

332
00:14:37,765 --> 00:14:38,065
Got it.

333
00:14:38,065 --> 00:14:38,425
Okay.

334
00:14:38,575 --> 00:14:42,085
Let's go into the opportunity obstacle
now, and we might talk about two, but

335
00:14:42,085 --> 00:14:45,035
let's talk about the one that you and
I have worked on over the past year

336
00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:47,960
and you've really become an evangelist
for, so what share with us what

337
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:48,560
that is.

338
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:52,130
So I think every business
starts with an idea.

339
00:14:52,185 --> 00:14:55,905
A vision, but when it comes to
actually getting somebody to pay for

340
00:14:55,905 --> 00:14:57,645
or to buy that, there's a challenge.

341
00:14:57,645 --> 00:15:00,885
It immediately comes in and there's
this process that you have to go

342
00:15:00,885 --> 00:15:04,425
through to really figure out, how
do I actually sell my product?

343
00:15:04,425 --> 00:15:07,995
How do I actually solve a problem
that people are willing to pay for?

344
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,960
Now process is called customer development
or customer discovery, and there's really

345
00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:16,920
a process to this, and it's not something
that is highlighted enough in accelerated

346
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,350
programs or other business topics.

347
00:15:19,350 --> 00:15:21,090
A lot of people jump right
to sales and marketing.

348
00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:22,380
That's how you're gonna
get your customers.

349
00:15:22,390 --> 00:15:25,210
This is actually the fundamental
stuff that needs to happen so that

350
00:15:25,210 --> 00:15:28,630
you can build an actual sales plan
and build an actual marketing plan.

351
00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:32,740
The thing is, when you start a business
that you don't actually know whether

352
00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:35,350
or not the problem you decided to
solve with your business is something

353
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:37,030
that people are willing to pay for.

354
00:15:37,085 --> 00:15:38,615
You think that they will.

355
00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:40,740
You don't actually know that.

356
00:15:40,740 --> 00:15:44,520
And the only way you find out about
that is you have to go talk to a lot

357
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,220
of people and you have to go figure
out who's willing to pay for this.

358
00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:50,550
And you need to do that soon in your
business before you've invested a

359
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:53,280
lot of money, because if it's not
something people are gonna wanna pay

360
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,480
for, then you don't wanna invest half
a million dollars or whatever it takes

361
00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,660
to get that product developed only
to find out nobody's gonna buy it.

362
00:16:00,690 --> 00:16:04,440
And so you're stuck if you, especially
if you're a sort of a tech industry.

363
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,270
And if you're a technical
founder like I am.

364
00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:09,100
We are really good at the
product development things and

365
00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:10,270
say, okay, I see this problem.

366
00:16:10,270 --> 00:16:12,400
Okay, I can build the system
to solve that problem.

367
00:16:12,460 --> 00:16:18,090
But we are not so good at understanding
whether or not there's a segment of the

368
00:16:18,090 --> 00:16:22,200
population out there that's willing to pay
for that problem to be solved and really

369
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,360
actually sizing the size of that market.

370
00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:27,120
And I would say that actually I'm
still really learning this, going

371
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,530
through this process in my business.

372
00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:32,200
There's a way to think about this
from a sort of a pyramid perspective.

373
00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:35,230
At the bottom of the pyramid, there's
all the people that have this problem,

374
00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:39,220
and then the next layer up in that
pyramid is all the people who know that

375
00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:42,610
they have this problem, but may not
have even done anything or researched

376
00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:43,870
or tried to do anything about it.

377
00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:47,950
The next layer up on there, all the people
who have actually are actively looking

378
00:16:47,950 --> 00:16:52,510
for a solution for this problem, and then
the next step above that is, okay, not

379
00:16:52,510 --> 00:16:54,040
only are they looking for a solution.

380
00:16:54,375 --> 00:16:57,405
They're trying to put one together,
or they have put one together

381
00:16:57,405 --> 00:16:59,985
and it's failed, or it's worked
and here's why it has or hasn't.

382
00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:03,155
And then at the top of that
pyramid are all of those people,

383
00:17:03,245 --> 00:17:06,065
and then they also have a budget
to actually solve that problem.

384
00:17:06,095 --> 00:17:10,175
And the thing is like the budget
matters because you can't sell

385
00:17:10,175 --> 00:17:11,195
anything if they don't have a budget.

386
00:17:11,195 --> 00:17:13,955
And so no matter where you're at in
that pyramid, if they don't have a

387
00:17:13,955 --> 00:17:16,695
budget you don't have, they're not
gonna, they're not gonna buy from you.

388
00:17:16,865 --> 00:17:17,940
That's right and this

389
00:17:17,940 --> 00:17:18,990
part of what's the program?

390
00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:19,620
It's part of

391
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:24,220
The bigger Steve Blank, so you can find
this is, so Steve Blank wrote a book

392
00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:28,570
called The Four Steps to the Epiphany,
and this is really well laid out in there.

393
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:32,200
Really the first three chapters lay out
this whole process of what you're looking

394
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,040
for and actually the customer at the very
top of that pyramid is really what he

395
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,620
refers to as an early evangelist customer.

396
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:43,690
This is somebody that is so invested
in this problem, they will pay you to

397
00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:45,700
solve the problem basically because.

398
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,200
This point when you're talking to them,
you don't actually have a product.

399
00:17:50,410 --> 00:17:52,030
You have an idea.

400
00:17:52,270 --> 00:17:57,010
Maybe you have an MVP or a very rough
demonstration that you can solve the

401
00:17:57,010 --> 00:18:00,970
problem enough that they're willing to
pay for you to actually put some polish

402
00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:04,510
on that and truly solve their problem for
them because it's that big of a problem.

403
00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:06,670
They're willing to pay for that
and that the first stage of your

404
00:18:06,670 --> 00:18:08,230
business, what you need to do is find.

405
00:18:08,255 --> 00:18:10,955
10 or 20 of those guys that
are willing to do that.

406
00:18:10,985 --> 00:18:11,195
That's right.

407
00:18:11,195 --> 00:18:14,705
Because this problem is such a big
need that they are willing to do

408
00:18:14,705 --> 00:18:16,175
whatever it takes to solve that.

409
00:18:16,235 --> 00:18:21,215
And then so really you're targeting the
first top two layers of that pyramid.

410
00:18:21,575 --> 00:18:24,005
They're the guys that have the
budget and they're actively trying

411
00:18:24,005 --> 00:18:25,295
to solve that problem right now.

412
00:18:25,295 --> 00:18:25,565
Today.

413
00:18:25,565 --> 00:18:26,405
They need it solved.

414
00:18:26,435 --> 00:18:28,115
They know it's there, they need it solved.

415
00:18:28,175 --> 00:18:29,765
They're gonna solve it one way or another.

416
00:18:29,765 --> 00:18:32,465
Either they build it themselves or they
have somebody come in and build it.

417
00:18:32,915 --> 00:18:35,375
And their preference is that
they really wanna stay focused

418
00:18:35,375 --> 00:18:36,455
on the corridor, their business.

419
00:18:36,455 --> 00:18:37,955
But this problem exists for them.

420
00:18:38,045 --> 00:18:40,325
And if you can come in and solve
them, that's really what they want.

421
00:18:40,725 --> 00:18:41,805
It's interesting because.

422
00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:45,740
Just last week, Nate, I realized
that my first experience with

423
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:50,210
customer development was when I
was 19 years old back in college.

424
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:54,720
And what happened was I was the
house manager of a fraternity, and

425
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,160
my roommate was the social channel.

426
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:59,520
And so we were always having kes delivered
to the house, and then they were always

427
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,160
sitting around, they're always all over
the place and they're always a big mess.

428
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:04,980
So I thought, I gotta pick up, what
if I take these back and forth?

429
00:19:05,355 --> 00:19:06,105
The fraternity.

430
00:19:06,195 --> 00:19:07,995
I did it and my roommate
was said, that's great.

431
00:19:07,995 --> 00:19:08,955
And I said, I wonder.

432
00:19:08,955 --> 00:19:12,825
So I went around and asked every
fraternity house if they needed

433
00:19:12,825 --> 00:19:14,265
help getting their kids delivered.

434
00:19:14,355 --> 00:19:15,795
I returned back to the distributor.

435
00:19:15,915 --> 00:19:19,695
Almost every one of them said Yes,
so I need to go out and buy a truck.

436
00:19:19,695 --> 00:19:20,775
I didn't go do this, that, and the other.

437
00:19:20,775 --> 00:19:23,155
I went and asked the question,
and then the next week I did 10

438
00:19:23,155 --> 00:19:26,360
fraternities and then people were
calling me, Hey, can you pick up ours?

439
00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:29,150
It was an amazing first experience
with customer development.

440
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:32,090
Let's go out and ask the questions,
meet the prospective clients.

441
00:19:32,435 --> 00:19:33,605
And find out what they need.

442
00:19:33,605 --> 00:19:34,985
So it was a pretty amazing experience.

443
00:19:34,985 --> 00:19:37,235
I didn't know it was called
customer development way back

444
00:19:37,235 --> 00:19:38,345
in the day, but that's what it

445
00:19:38,345 --> 00:19:38,735
was.

446
00:19:38,765 --> 00:19:40,625
I think a lot of it's in
business kind of fall into this.

447
00:19:40,625 --> 00:19:42,155
They don't realize, we don't
realize we're doing it.

448
00:19:42,155 --> 00:19:42,935
It's by accident.

449
00:19:42,935 --> 00:19:46,325
We fall into it and maybe by, even
by necessity, and that's kinda what

450
00:19:46,325 --> 00:19:49,025
happened to me is I had to figure this
out or I was gonna lose my business.

451
00:19:49,025 --> 00:19:51,485
But you also hit off something
that I think is really important

452
00:19:51,485 --> 00:19:54,035
when you start to figure out that
there's a market for your service.

453
00:19:54,095 --> 00:19:57,575
What happens is that instead of
you pushing the string pulls you.

454
00:19:57,635 --> 00:19:58,235
I like that.

455
00:19:58,235 --> 00:19:59,045
That's a great saying.

456
00:19:59,365 --> 00:20:01,375
So like in your case, right?

457
00:20:01,435 --> 00:20:03,835
All of a sudden these fraternities
start calling you, right?

458
00:20:03,835 --> 00:20:06,265
There's a demand there because
they're like, Hey, there's

459
00:20:06,265 --> 00:20:07,225
this guy that will do this.

460
00:20:07,235 --> 00:20:09,275
We'll just have him come in
and do this for us, right?

461
00:20:09,275 --> 00:20:13,655
And so now the demand starts to pull you
instead of you trying to push the demand.

462
00:20:13,775 --> 00:20:17,015
And that's right when you're having
to do the pushing now, as at a certain

463
00:20:17,015 --> 00:20:19,205
point you have to do the sales in
the marketing and stuff like that.

464
00:20:19,205 --> 00:20:20,645
So then you start to transition into that.

465
00:20:20,645 --> 00:20:21,635
So you can get the word out there.

466
00:20:21,635 --> 00:20:25,175
But really what you're trying to do is
you're trying to get demand to recognize

467
00:20:25,175 --> 00:20:28,025
that you exist so that they will pull
you along in your business, right?

468
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:30,830
Then something is not quite right.

469
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:33,140
You haven't quite figured
out product market fit.

470
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,230
And that's something that I think
we're bouncing between in our business.

471
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:39,120
Do we really have product market fit
or is it, so you know, people are

472
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,030
calling me up on a weekly basis saying,
Hey, I know you're working at a space.

473
00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:42,810
What have you got for me?

474
00:20:42,810 --> 00:20:44,970
What can I do to help you actually
happened to me last week and

475
00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:46,230
it's a really good feeling.

476
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:49,670
When that starts to happen, because that
means people recognize what you're doing

477
00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:53,000
in the business and that it actually
is solving a problem and they want to

478
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,860
get that solution into their business.

479
00:20:54,910 --> 00:20:58,090
It's interesting because, product
market fit here's a great example

480
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:00,720
of that same king delivery
business was called the one stop.

481
00:21:01,140 --> 00:21:02,580
And what happened was.

482
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:05,330
These ladies called one day and
said, Hey, can you deliver these

483
00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:07,020
four kegs to, to our apartment?

484
00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:08,370
We're having a, we're having a party.

485
00:21:08,370 --> 00:21:09,150
And I says, Hey.

486
00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:09,870
Absolutely.

487
00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:14,000
So I got to the place I'm supposed
to deliver those kegs and these four

488
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,390
ladies or whatever, these ladies were
on the fourth floor of an apartment

489
00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:20,700
building, sent out on their balcony
saying, Hey, just bring them up here.

490
00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:21,360
I'm like, what?

491
00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:24,270
Each one of those kegs weigh 162 pounds.

492
00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:28,870
I had take those, all the flights up
and I'm not a big guy, but I was used

493
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:30,640
to caring, but it was so no more.

494
00:21:30,730 --> 00:21:34,565
I only, after that delivery, I only
delivered 'em to fraternity houses to

495
00:21:34,565 --> 00:21:38,585
a X point because I was never gonna
deliver four flights of stairs again.

496
00:21:39,475 --> 00:21:40,225
That's for sharing.

497
00:21:40,315 --> 00:21:41,365
So know your customer.

498
00:21:41,365 --> 00:21:42,325
Absolutely.

499
00:21:42,330 --> 00:21:42,740
That's right.

500
00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:43,260
Absolutely.

501
00:21:43,495 --> 00:21:43,825
Yeah.

502
00:21:43,825 --> 00:21:46,885
That's, and I think that customer
development is a hugely important thing.

503
00:21:46,885 --> 00:21:50,185
I can go through many other examples
as I, and you've really helped me learn

504
00:21:50,185 --> 00:21:53,935
the importance and value and to do
that in a very transparent and defined

505
00:21:53,935 --> 00:21:57,225
way to define your customers and get
to know who they are and be able to.

506
00:21:57,305 --> 00:21:59,135
Deliver upon that prompts.

507
00:21:59,135 --> 00:22:00,515
I think it's really been a great thing.

508
00:22:00,605 --> 00:22:03,455
And then part is, I think
customer development fits within

509
00:22:03,455 --> 00:22:05,225
a program called the Lean Startup.

510
00:22:05,315 --> 00:22:09,155
And that's a really, I think most business
owners should be trying to work within a

511
00:22:09,155 --> 00:22:12,005
framework, a known and proven framework.

512
00:22:12,185 --> 00:22:14,555
'cause you're doing that, you're not
always trying to recreate the wheel,

513
00:22:14,555 --> 00:22:16,685
just stick to a known framework.

514
00:22:17,350 --> 00:22:20,560
Listen, to learn upon that though, I
would say there's one thing I'd like

515
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,350
to get the lean startup to put in
there, which would be, I'll call it

516
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:27,250
capital development or getting capital
ready, which comes after, as we've

517
00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:28,780
talked about, customer development.

518
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:30,100
So I think it's

519
00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:31,290
a big piece.

520
00:22:31,290 --> 00:22:34,410
I. Yeah, you and I had a conversation
about this back at the IVMF.

521
00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:38,120
The whole thing is the customer
discovery or development process really

522
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,590
opens the door to capital, right?

523
00:22:39,710 --> 00:22:45,170
If you want to cap others from the angel
investment or vc or some other form

524
00:22:45,170 --> 00:22:49,070
of capital line of credit or whatever
it is, at the end of the day, unless

525
00:22:49,070 --> 00:22:52,910
you can demonstrate you've got some
kind of traction that is worth it for

526
00:22:52,910 --> 00:22:56,810
somebody to take a risk on you, it's
gonna be really hard to get capital.

527
00:22:57,105 --> 00:22:59,625
And a lot of times, when you talk
to the IBMF and you talk to veteran

528
00:22:59,625 --> 00:23:03,165
owned businesses out there, a lot
of US site the access to capital is

529
00:23:03,165 --> 00:23:04,785
one of the biggest barriers for us.

530
00:23:04,845 --> 00:23:07,965
I'm not gonna say that it's not a
barrier, but I think where we have

531
00:23:07,965 --> 00:23:11,715
a MI big misconception inside most
of our businesses is that we don't

532
00:23:11,715 --> 00:23:15,285
understand how important it is for
us to do the customer discovery work.

533
00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:18,890
Development work and then what
that will do to actually open the

534
00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:22,730
availability capital, potentially
existing barriers in there because

535
00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:26,360
of the fact that we're veterans and
other minority groups associated.

536
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,210
Yeah, there's probably still some
other things in there, but we can

537
00:23:29,210 --> 00:23:32,990
really do a lot to break those barriers
down by doing the work up front to

538
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:37,220
do the customer discovery, to open
those doors a lot easier to solve the

539
00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:39,920
rest of the problems that we're gonna
have as a business once we, yeah.

540
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:42,290
It's interesting because we always talk.

541
00:23:42,615 --> 00:23:46,155
People talk about access to capital,
and to me it's not access to capital.

542
00:23:46,215 --> 00:23:48,615
I think it's, you said
it, it's exactly this.

543
00:23:48,615 --> 00:23:50,625
It's, are you capital ready?

544
00:23:50,685 --> 00:23:50,895
Yes.

545
00:23:50,895 --> 00:23:52,155
And there's a big difference.

546
00:23:52,425 --> 00:23:54,615
If you're capital ready,
you can get to capital.

547
00:23:54,665 --> 00:23:57,365
There's, you can have access to
capital, but if you're not capital

548
00:23:57,365 --> 00:24:00,455
ready, you're not gonna have access to
capital, the chicken egg kind of thing.

549
00:24:00,505 --> 00:24:01,165
That's for sure.

550
00:24:01,225 --> 00:24:06,655
Think that there's a big gap in training
on how to actually become capital ready.

551
00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:10,470
I think that this whole process of
customer discovery and then the whole

552
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:13,440
process of what do you need to do
with your p and l sheets and your

553
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,470
personal finances and all that stuff
that needs to happen, all that work

554
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:19,090
needs to happen in the year previous
to where you need the capital.

555
00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:19,750
That's right.

556
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,780
A hundred percent of remain
that groundwork before you

557
00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:24,910
actually go down that path.

558
00:24:25,115 --> 00:24:27,515
And if you don't, then
you're gonna really struggle.

559
00:24:27,515 --> 00:24:29,465
'cause when you need
the cash, it's too late.

560
00:24:29,525 --> 00:24:29,975
That's right.

561
00:24:29,975 --> 00:24:30,725
So very good.

562
00:24:30,755 --> 00:24:31,505
Thank you so much.

563
00:24:31,595 --> 00:24:32,705
May I ask another question here?

564
00:24:32,765 --> 00:24:35,435
Because you and I can go on about customer
development forever because I think it

565
00:24:35,485 --> 00:24:37,525
core and so important, that's for sure.

566
00:24:37,615 --> 00:24:41,875
Other than customer development, if
prospective founders of businesses

567
00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:45,055
called you and said, Nate, what's
an insight you wanna share with me?

568
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:47,070
Before I start our business,

569
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:47,760
what would it be?

570
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:52,020
I think it would be that you really
wanna understand what your vision

571
00:24:52,020 --> 00:24:53,940
is for what you want to accomplish.

572
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:56,220
You're gonna have hard
times in the business.

573
00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,360
There are gonna be ups and downs.

574
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,230
If money is your only motivation, you're
gonna quit a year end because it's gonna

575
00:25:01,230 --> 00:25:05,460
get, you need to have a vision for what
the world is going to be like after

576
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:07,080
you do this, why are you doing this?

577
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,940
What is your motivation for doing this?

578
00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:12,480
Because honestly, there are
really sucky days ahead.

579
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:13,710
I don't know how else to say.

580
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:15,720
There are gonna be some really bad days.

581
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,690
You're gonna feel, one day you're gonna
feel on top of the world, you're gonna

582
00:25:18,690 --> 00:25:20,250
be like, this is the best thing ever.

583
00:25:20,250 --> 00:25:23,160
And the next day you're gonna be
like, what in the world am I thinking?

584
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,810
Why am I the one doing this?

585
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:27,210
What possessed me to even
think I could do this?

586
00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:29,340
And you're gonna go from
that extreme to the other.

587
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:32,980
Elon Musk kind of refer to this as,
stir breaking glass and chewing it

588
00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:34,355
and stirring it into the sunset.

589
00:25:34,385 --> 00:25:36,875
I didn't even say it exactly the way
you said it, but it's essentially that

590
00:25:36,965 --> 00:25:40,325
to some extent you have this vision
of what the world could be like.

591
00:25:40,595 --> 00:25:42,755
In the process of that,
you're eating glass.

592
00:25:42,755 --> 00:25:47,375
And so it's just this hard process of
what you're gonna go through as a founder

593
00:25:47,375 --> 00:25:50,855
and you really need to know what your
vision is and why you're doing that.

594
00:25:50,855 --> 00:25:54,105
And I think not, maybe not everybody
has the same religious background

595
00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:56,655
that I have or the others have
from a faith perspective, but I.

596
00:25:56,970 --> 00:25:58,680
I think that faith is a big part of this.

597
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,310
Like you need to understand what it
is, what's gonna take you through this

598
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:05,220
when you hit those hard times and for
everybody to look a little bit different.

599
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,430
But I think it's an important part and
I also think it's important for you

600
00:26:08,430 --> 00:26:11,550
to really talk about with your family
what this is gonna really mean, because

601
00:26:11,550 --> 00:26:15,030
it's gonna be a sacrifice not only on
your part, but your family is going

602
00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:16,890
to also sacrifice for you to do this.

603
00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:17,340
And That's right.

604
00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:18,960
What is that gonna look like?

605
00:26:19,165 --> 00:26:22,045
Most of us in the military are
very accustomed to sacrifice.

606
00:26:22,055 --> 00:26:24,965
If you're married and your marriage
has been able to survive your military

607
00:26:24,965 --> 00:26:27,545
career through all the deployments and
all the stuff that you go through in the

608
00:26:27,545 --> 00:26:31,145
military, you're probably have pretty
good footing from a business perspective

609
00:26:31,205 --> 00:26:35,075
to be able to actually have the support
that you need from a family perspective

610
00:26:35,075 --> 00:26:36,605
and from your friends and stuff like that.

611
00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:39,275
Just just some things to think about
as you're starting that business.

612
00:26:39,305 --> 00:26:40,655
That shouldn't mean that
you shouldn't do it.

613
00:26:40,655 --> 00:26:42,905
That just means that think
about what you're gonna need

614
00:26:42,905 --> 00:26:44,045
from a support perspective.

615
00:26:44,045 --> 00:26:46,535
And if you're a single person,
then who are you gonna be?

616
00:26:46,535 --> 00:26:47,945
Your people that you're gonna rely on.

617
00:26:47,975 --> 00:26:48,725
'cause you're gonna need 'em.

618
00:26:48,905 --> 00:26:49,325
That's right.

619
00:26:49,415 --> 00:26:49,805
That's right.

620
00:26:49,895 --> 00:26:50,345
Absolutely.

621
00:26:50,595 --> 00:26:51,255
Thank you so much.

622
00:26:51,255 --> 00:26:51,795
We're Drawing.

623
00:26:51,795 --> 00:26:54,255
Close an end to your, I
appreciate your time so much.

624
00:26:54,255 --> 00:26:57,975
But Nate, who's another military community
founder that we might wanna champion

625
00:26:57,975 --> 00:27:01,185
and celebrate through this podcast
'cause great people know great people.

626
00:27:01,565 --> 00:27:03,185
Just hear your insights on that.

627
00:27:03,235 --> 00:27:05,215
There are a lot of really good people.

628
00:27:05,215 --> 00:27:10,285
I've met some fantastic people through the
IVMF for Terry Strickland, Jesse T. Henry,

629
00:27:10,285 --> 00:27:14,725
ba, just to name a few, and Sam Westfall
down in Colorado Springs down here,

630
00:27:14,755 --> 00:27:18,565
there, there are so many people doing
some amazing things with their businesses.

631
00:27:18,645 --> 00:27:21,795
And I think the thing that strikes
me the most is that almost all of

632
00:27:21,795 --> 00:27:25,695
these guys, all of them really, I
think their care is first, how do I

633
00:27:25,695 --> 00:27:27,555
serve and then how do I make money?

634
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:28,480
As a business.

635
00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:32,440
And so I think that's something
that is really common with veterans.

636
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,420
It's almost like the
business is important.

637
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:35,950
I think we all think
it's important, right?

638
00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:38,980
But it's almost secondary
to why are we doing this and

639
00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:39,610
bigger mission,

640
00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:41,590
so many veteran businesses.

641
00:27:41,650 --> 00:27:42,040
That's right.

642
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,670
It's very true.

643
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,360
Absolutely.

644
00:27:43,410 --> 00:27:46,500
To say thank you for today, we're gonna
donate a hundred dollars in your name

645
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,510
to the Dick Loges Scholarship Fund.

646
00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:52,340
And that goes to help fund the
first year of university or military

647
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:56,750
community child to, to attend university
or an accredited trade school.

648
00:27:56,770 --> 00:27:58,060
And so appreciate it.

649
00:27:58,060 --> 00:28:00,720
And this is just our small
way to give back so very cool.

650
00:28:00,885 --> 00:28:02,025
Nate, thank you so much.

651
00:28:02,525 --> 00:28:05,165
Thanks for joining us on
the Milcom Founders Podcast.

652
00:28:05,855 --> 00:28:09,035
If you know a Milcom founder
with a story to share, reach

653
00:28:09,035 --> 00:28:10,895
out to us@milcomfounders.com.

654
00:28:11,825 --> 00:28:15,665
For each guest on our show, one
Degree Financial donates $100

655
00:28:15,665 --> 00:28:20,615
to the Dick Veteran Entrepreneur
Scholarship supporting education.

656
00:28:21,035 --> 00:28:24,065
Our children of a Milcom
business owner, stay ready.