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Recently, we had a big strike here. King super workers
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went on strike. They are part of the Kroger Kroger
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is their parent company. And this is not the first
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strike that we've had with grocery workers and probably won't
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be the last.
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But there are a couple of King Supers.
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Employees who decided that they wanted to keep working during
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the strike. And now to talk about it from the
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National Right to Work Organization, Patrick Simmons, Welcome to the show.
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First of all, thanks Mandy.
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Great to be on with you.
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Well, I'm going to let you lay out the story
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here what happened when the grocery workers went on strike.
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You have two people that said we want to go
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ahead and continue working.
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Tell me what happened, right, Well, these are two that
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we know of. There almost certainly are others. But it's
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every worker's right under federal law to not be a
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formal member of the union, even if they control your workplace,
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and even if in a state like Colorado that you
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can be forced to pay dues to that union, but
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you don't have to be a formal union member, and
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you don't have to join union ordered strikes.
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That's what happened here. That's what happened.
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Previously at King Soupers for a whole lot of workers
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back in twenty twenty two, when they had a much
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longer strike.
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So they decided that.
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The best decision for themselves, for them, for their family
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was I want to continue working. They resigned their union
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membership before doing so, and then exercise that right.
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So they went back to work.
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And once they're a non member, they cannot be fined
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under what's called internal union discipline by the union, except
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that UFCW Local seven tried to do that anyway, and
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so they sent them threatening letters back in August. They
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told them that they were going to be subjected to
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hundreds of dollars of fines. And as a result of that,
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because that is quite clearly illegal under federal labor law,
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they've now filed these unfair labor practice charges against UFCW
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Local seven with National Labor Relations Board.
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Let me ask you a couple of questions, because I've
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never been in a union, so I don't know how
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all of this operates. Okay, So would if these people
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were still in the union, how would the union assess
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those fines? Would they would would King Supers or Kroger
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Empower them to take the money out of paychecks.
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How does that process work?
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Yeah, it's a good question.
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So you know, they issue the fines and then ultimately
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they would have to go to you know, generally like
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small claims court or state court to collect. If it
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comes to that, you know, then there's also the National
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Relations Board process. So a lot of times if they
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are issuing those threats and they are seeking to collect
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those fines, if they go beyond what they can legally
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do under federal law, then the National lib Relations Board
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might get involved. But ultimately, if the fines were legal,
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which they aren't in this situation, it would be up
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to sort of a collection you know, uh activity, just
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like if if you were in you know, back pay
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on your credit card or or something like that. So
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they can force dues which can be taken straight out
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of someone's paycheck.
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Something like this cannot.
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Yeah, but I mean in theory, they could ding your
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credit they could they could do a lot of stuff
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to you. They could cause you a lot of problems
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as you simply fought what was going you.
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Know, what they were threatening.
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Now you said that this is not the first time
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something like this has happened, and you're are you talking
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about the Local seven that this is not the first
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time they've done something like this.
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Yeah, well, we see these all across the country.
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Anytime there's a big, you know, strike, it's often very contentious.
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The union bosses will climb out everyone's on board, but
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we know a lot of the rank and file aren't
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so but but yeah, we've seen this specifically with King
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Souper's workers at UFCW Local seven in Colorado back in
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twenty twenty two.
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So there was basically the last contract.
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These contracts often last three years, so the previous contract
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had exposed, and then twenty twenty two they went on
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strike for an extended period of time and there are
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a lot of workers who didn't agree with that decision.
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A lot of them went back to work, and we
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saw a lot of threatening finds thousands of dollars in
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that instance, and just we've seen strike finds as high
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as like forty to fifty thousand dollars, say for grocery workers,
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but across the country. So, I mean, these can really
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be things that are a huge threat to the livelihood
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of a rank and file worker.
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But this is all about punishing workers.
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Who don't tow the union line. Union bosses want to
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be a top down organization. They want to tell every
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worker what's best for them. They want to deny them
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choice over something like union financial support. That's why states
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like Colorado that lack right to work, they worker can
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be fired for not paying money.
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To a union.
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And so this is all about top down union control
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and not about empowering workers, which is our opinion. If
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workers want to voluntarily associate with the union, voluntarily be
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a member, voluntarily pay dues, they should be allowed to
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do so. If they decide they want to voluntarily be
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subject to some internal union court that can find them.
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That sounds like a bad idea to me. But I
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suppose that should be everyone's free choice. But none of
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this should be coerced. None of this should be forced.
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It certainly shouldn't be mandated by federal law, and it
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also should be protected by state laws when it comes
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to the right to work and the financial support for
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those activities.
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So tell me what about this process.
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There's been an official complaint lodge, what happens here and
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what is the outcome?
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Right?
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So the charges were filed with the National Labor Relations
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Board at their regional office.
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It'll be investigated if.
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They find that there's a high likelihood that the union
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violated the law, which everything I've seen from these facts
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suggests they're going to come.
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To that finding.
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Then, like they will back in twenty twenty two, they
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may give the union an opportunity to settle, and they
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say to avoid prosecution, you can essentially plead guilty.
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That's sort of what happened at last time.
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That would mean rescinding the fines, making it clear that
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these workers are non members, they cannot be subject to
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these threats. Probably means telling every other worker about it.
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It may mean mandatory training.
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I believe they had mandatory training last time, and clearly
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the training didn't do a whole lot of good since
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they're back violating the law again.
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But it would it certainly let other workers.
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Know, and that's really important because I think it's highly
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unlikely that only two workers out of the over ten
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thousand impacted by this strike decided to cross and decided
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to exercise their right to work, And so if there's
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others out there, they should definitely contact the NATIONALID to
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Work Foundation. We can protect them against these fines and
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against the potential damage to their credit and everything else
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that comes with it.
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I have questions from our Common Spirit Health text line
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for you Patrick. One of them is, Mandy, can you
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please ask if I am a fee paying member but
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not part of the union, do I have to go
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on strike or can I continue to work? Which were
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these union full blown union members or just fee paying
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members who said we're going to go back to work?
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What is the difference and what is the answer to
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this guy's question?
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Yeah, So the answer is if you're a fee player,
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then that means you are not a union member or
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you don't have full union membership, and so that means
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you cannot be subjected to any of the internal union finds,
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and the union cannot, at least legally, though clearly in
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some cases they'll break that law. They cannot legally find you,
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and so you should be free to return to work,
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continue working, not engage in the union strike, and decide
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that that working is working is what's best for you
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and your family. You have that right to do so,
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and hopefully you don't need us, but if you do
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the National Right to Work, the Fence Foundation would be
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there to help you exercise that right and fight for
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that right and make sure that any illegal, unlawful attempts
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to find you, there's pushback, and you're ultimately okay, Patrick, can.
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You clarify Colorado's status in terms of we're not a
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We're not a right to work state in the fullest
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sense of the word, but we do have some protections
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in place. I mean, what would you we're kind of
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a we're like kind of a right to work I mean,
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what are we?
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Yeah?
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Well, so obviously right to work states. Union financial sport
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is completely voluntary pay dues if you want to, if
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you choose to, but you cannot be required to. In
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other states, and that would include Colorado. A union can
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enter into a union force dues clause what they'll call
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a union security clause in the contract that says if
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someone doesn't pay that it.
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Can be fired solely for non payment.
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What Colorado adds to that is they have an additional
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vote to authorize the force dues at the beginning of
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the unionization process.
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So it's it's not that helpful.
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And in the case of something like King Supers, I mean,
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this vote almost certainly took place years ago. A lot
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of the current employees never had the opportunity to weigh
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in on that. And that's why we think ultimately it
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should be an individual choice whether force dues can be
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required or not. But they do have that labor piece thing.
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I know that came up in the state legislature. They
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were talking about repealing it. The governor vetoed it. I
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think he probably understands that even though he can't go
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to businesses and try to recruit them on the grounds
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of being a right to work state, he can say, well,
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we're not quite as bad as California or Illinois or
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New York when he's trying to attract businesses. But ultimately,
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right to work is the ultimate is the real solution
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to the problem.
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Just let workers choose.
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And it's simple, and we know that the American people
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overwhelmingly support that. Eighty percent of Americans say union membership
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and duce payment should be voluntary, it should not be mandatory.
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And that's what right to work simply does.
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And I would say this Patrick, my editorial comment on
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this is, if unions really wanted to sway me and
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sway my opinion, they wouldn't do the kinds of things
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that you're talking about right now. Provide value for your customer,
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earn their business, earn their membership and if somebody doesn't
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want to participate, stop doing punitive things to them.
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Now, how long.
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Will this process take that you're talking about right now?
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And what is the how can someone join you or
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reach out to National Right to Work Foundation if they
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have faced similar discrimination or similar harassment from the union
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over this strike?
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Sure, so, you know, it can take a couple of
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months sometimes for them to investigate the charge. Sometimes simply
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filing a charge will get the union to back down
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pretty quickly.
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We've seen that.
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Sometimes other times it can it can take you know,
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months if if it goes through a trial in front
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of an administrative law judge, we could be talking about
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six months or a year or potentially more.
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Hopefully it doesn't take that long.
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But anyone who has experienced anything like this, and if
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they're not sure, you know, they don't have to file
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a case, but they can just call in talk to
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one of our staff attorneys. We've got seventeen full time attorneys.
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All we do is represent employees who've had their rights
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violated by force unionism and you know the kind of
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threats to come along with a strike. As part of that,
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you go to our website and RTW dot org. You'll
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see a thing for request free legal aid. You can
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put in some details of your situation, someone.
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Can get back to you.
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You call Wedding one hundred and three three six thirty
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six hundred and talk to someone. But no matter what,
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just you can you can find out about your rights
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and figure out what the best situation, what the best
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you know, process forward is for each individual. But yeah,
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we're about empower individuals and when union bosses seek to violate.
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Their we want to hold them accountable.
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I have one last question, and that's about the National
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Labor Relations Board, specifically, because I asked Patrick off the air,
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I'm like, okay, what actually what punitive measures are levied
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against unions who continue to engage in the same behavior
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over and over and over again.
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And the answer seems to be pretty much nothing.
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It's like, here, take a re education class that apparently
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has no effect.
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What do we need to do to change.
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The rules at the National Labor Relations Board to put
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teeth into it to really make unions who violate these
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laws pay in some way, shape or form, whether financially,
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whether having their their actions limited to some extent, Like
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what needs to happen there?
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Yeah? Well, it's a good question.
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I mean, I think you know, ultimately the real solution
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would be to repeal all the government powers that let
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union officials engage in these activities.
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So the idea that you can force the worker to.
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Pay user be five to stop that, and that will
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that'll fix a lot of it, because if the union
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is financially accountable, they're not going to be so reckless
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when it comes to viling people's rights. It also goes
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to forcing people under representation they disagree with. But yeah,
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we would like to see some find especially when you
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have I mean, this union is a repeat offender, the
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UFCW Local seven, and I've was looking up some information
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about that. I mean, there are there are a lot
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of people within that union who are members who are
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seeking to get rid of their president because they feel
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she's been really reckless, uh and some of and basically
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is doing what's best for herself and her own power
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and and not what's actually best for the rank and file.
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So we need more accountability and and I'm certainly making
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dues voluntary it would be an important step, but when
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you have a repeat offender, there should be real consequences
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beyond just hey, we won't do it again, and and
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maybe we'll tell everyone, hey, we won't violate your rights
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next time, even though we've done it twice already.
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Aim end of that.
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Patrick Simon's with the National Right to Work Foundation. I
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appreciate your time today and for helping workers here in
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Colorado fight back against just ridiculously unfair treatment. I really
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appreciate it.
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Glad to do it.
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Recently, we had a big strike here. King super workers
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went on strike. They are part of the Kroger Kroger
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is their parent company. And this is not the first
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strike that we've had with grocery workers and probably won't
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be the last.
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But there are a couple of King Supers.
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Employees who decided that they wanted to keep working during
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the strike. And now to talk about it from the
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National Right to Work Organization, Patrick Simmons, Welcome to the show.
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First of all, thanks Mandy.
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Great to be on with you.
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Well, I'm going to let you lay out the story
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here what happened when the grocery workers went on strike.
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You have two people that said we want to go
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ahead and continue working.
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Tell me what happened, right, Well, these are two that
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we know of. There almost certainly are others. But it's
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every worker's right under federal law to not be a
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formal member of the union, even if they control your workplace,
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and even if in a state like Colorado that you
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can be forced to pay dues to that union, but
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you don't have to be a formal union member, and
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you don't have to join union ordered strikes.
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That's what happened here. That's what happened.
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Previously at King Soupers for a whole lot of workers
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back in twenty twenty two, when they had a much
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longer strike.
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So they decided that.
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The best decision for themselves, for them, for their family
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was I want to continue working. They resigned their union
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membership before doing so, and then exercise that right.
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So they went back to work.
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And once they're a non member, they cannot be fined
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under what's called internal union discipline by the union, except
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that UFCW Local seven tried to do that anyway, and
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so they sent them threatening letters back in August. They
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told them that they were going to be subjected to
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hundreds of dollars of fines. And as a result of that,
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because that is quite clearly illegal under federal labor law,
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they've now filed these unfair labor practice charges against UFCW
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Local seven with National Labor Relations Board.
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Let me ask you a couple of questions, because I've
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never been in a union, so I don't know how
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all of this operates. Okay, So would if these people
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were still in the union, how would the union assess
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those fines? Would they would would King Supers or Kroger
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Empower them to take the money out of paychecks.
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How does that process work?
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Yeah, it's a good question.
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So you know, they issue the fines and then ultimately
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they would have to go to you know, generally like
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small claims court or state court to collect. If it
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comes to that, you know, then there's also the National
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Relations Board process. So a lot of times if they
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are issuing those threats and they are seeking to collect
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those fines, if they go beyond what they can legally
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do under federal law, then the National lib Relations Board
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might get involved. But ultimately, if the fines were legal,
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which they aren't in this situation, it would be up
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to sort of a collection you know, uh activity, just
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like if if you were in you know, back pay
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on your credit card or or something like that. So
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they can force dues which can be taken straight out
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of someone's paycheck.
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Something like this cannot.
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Yeah, but I mean in theory, they could ding your
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credit they could they could do a lot of stuff
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to you. They could cause you a lot of problems
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as you simply fought what was going you.
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Know, what they were threatening.
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Now you said that this is not the first time
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something like this has happened, and you're are you talking
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about the Local seven that this is not the first
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time they've done something like this.
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Yeah, well, we see these all across the country.
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Anytime there's a big, you know, strike, it's often very contentious.
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The union bosses will climb out everyone's on board, but
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we know a lot of the rank and file aren't
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so but but yeah, we've seen this specifically with King
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Souper's workers at UFCW Local seven in Colorado back in
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twenty twenty two.
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So there was basically the last contract.
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These contracts often last three years, so the previous contract
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had exposed, and then twenty twenty two they went on
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strike for an extended period of time and there are
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a lot of workers who didn't agree with that decision.
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A lot of them went back to work, and we
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saw a lot of threatening finds thousands of dollars in
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that instance, and just we've seen strike finds as high
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as like forty to fifty thousand dollars, say for grocery workers,
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but across the country. So, I mean, these can really
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be things that are a huge threat to the livelihood
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of a rank and file worker.
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But this is all about punishing workers.
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Who don't tow the union line. Union bosses want to
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be a top down organization. They want to tell every
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worker what's best for them. They want to deny them
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choice over something like union financial support. That's why states
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like Colorado that lack right to work, they worker can
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be fired for not paying money.
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To a union.
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And so this is all about top down union control
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and not about empowering workers, which is our opinion. If
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workers want to voluntarily associate with the union, voluntarily be
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a member, voluntarily pay dues, they should be allowed to
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do so. If they decide they want to voluntarily be
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subject to some internal union court that can find them.
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That sounds like a bad idea to me. But I
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suppose that should be everyone's free choice. But none of
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this should be coerced. None of this should be forced.
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It certainly shouldn't be mandated by federal law, and it
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also should be protected by state laws when it comes
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to the right to work and the financial support for
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those activities.
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So tell me what about this process.
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There's been an official complaint lodge, what happens here and
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what is the outcome?
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Right?
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So the charges were filed with the National Labor Relations
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Board at their regional office.
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It'll be investigated if.
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They find that there's a high likelihood that the union
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violated the law, which everything I've seen from these facts
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suggests they're going to come.
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To that finding.
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Then, like they will back in twenty twenty two, they
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may give the union an opportunity to settle, and they
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say to avoid prosecution, you can essentially plead guilty.
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That's sort of what happened at last time.
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That would mean rescinding the fines, making it clear that
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these workers are non members, they cannot be subject to
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these threats. Probably means telling every other worker about it.
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It may mean mandatory training.
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I believe they had mandatory training last time, and clearly
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the training didn't do a whole lot of good since
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they're back violating the law again.
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But it would it certainly let other workers.
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Know, and that's really important because I think it's highly
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unlikely that only two workers out of the over ten
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thousand impacted by this strike decided to cross and decided
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to exercise their right to work, And so if there's
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others out there, they should definitely contact the NATIONALID to
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Work Foundation. We can protect them against these fines and
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against the potential damage to their credit and everything else
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that comes with it.
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I have questions from our Common Spirit Health text line
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for you Patrick. One of them is, Mandy, can you
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please ask if I am a fee paying member but
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not part of the union, do I have to go
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on strike or can I continue to work? Which were
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these union full blown union members or just fee paying
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members who said we're going to go back to work?
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What is the difference and what is the answer to
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this guy's question?
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Yeah, So the answer is if you're a fee player,
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then that means you are not a union member or
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you don't have full union membership, and so that means
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you cannot be subjected to any of the internal union finds,
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and the union cannot, at least legally, though clearly in
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some cases they'll break that law. They cannot legally find you,
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and so you should be free to return to work,
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continue working, not engage in the union strike, and decide
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that that working is working is what's best for you
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and your family. You have that right to do so,
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and hopefully you don't need us, but if you do
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the National Right to Work, the Fence Foundation would be
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there to help you exercise that right and fight for
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that right and make sure that any illegal, unlawful attempts
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to find you, there's pushback, and you're ultimately okay, Patrick, can.
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You clarify Colorado's status in terms of we're not a
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We're not a right to work state in the fullest
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sense of the word, but we do have some protections
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in place. I mean, what would you we're kind of
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a we're like kind of a right to work I mean,
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what are we?
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Yeah?
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Well, so obviously right to work states. Union financial sport
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is completely voluntary pay dues if you want to, if
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you choose to, but you cannot be required to. In
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other states, and that would include Colorado. A union can
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enter into a union force dues clause what they'll call
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a union security clause in the contract that says if
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someone doesn't pay that it.
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Can be fired solely for non payment.
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What Colorado adds to that is they have an additional
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vote to authorize the force dues at the beginning of
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the unionization process.
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So it's it's not that helpful.
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And in the case of something like King Supers, I mean,
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this vote almost certainly took place years ago. A lot
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of the current employees never had the opportunity to weigh
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in on that. And that's why we think ultimately it
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should be an individual choice whether force dues can be
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required or not. But they do have that labor piece thing.
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I know that came up in the state legislature. They
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were talking about repealing it. The governor vetoed it. I
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think he probably understands that even though he can't go
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to businesses and try to recruit them on the grounds
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of being a right to work state, he can say, well,
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we're not quite as bad as California or Illinois or
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New York when he's trying to attract businesses. But ultimately,
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right to work is the ultimate is the real solution
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to the problem.
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Just let workers choose.
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And it's simple, and we know that the American people
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overwhelmingly support that. Eighty percent of Americans say union membership
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and duce payment should be voluntary, it should not be mandatory.
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And that's what right to work simply does.
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And I would say this Patrick, my editorial comment on
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this is, if unions really wanted to sway me and
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sway my opinion, they wouldn't do the kinds of things
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that you're talking about right now. Provide value for your customer,
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earn their business, earn their membership and if somebody doesn't
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want to participate, stop doing punitive things to them.
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Now, how long.
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Will this process take that you're talking about right now?
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And what is the how can someone join you or
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reach out to National Right to Work Foundation if they
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have faced similar discrimination or similar harassment from the union
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over this strike?
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Sure, so, you know, it can take a couple of
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months sometimes for them to investigate the charge. Sometimes simply
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filing a charge will get the union to back down
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pretty quickly.
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We've seen that.
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Sometimes other times it can it can take you know,
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months if if it goes through a trial in front
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of an administrative law judge, we could be talking about
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six months or a year or potentially more.
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Hopefully it doesn't take that long.
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But anyone who has experienced anything like this, and if
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they're not sure, you know, they don't have to file
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a case, but they can just call in talk to
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one of our staff attorneys. We've got seventeen full time attorneys.
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All we do is represent employees who've had their rights
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violated by force unionism and you know the kind of
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threats to come along with a strike. As part of that,
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you go to our website and RTW dot org. You'll
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see a thing for request free legal aid. You can
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put in some details of your situation, someone.
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Can get back to you.
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You call Wedding one hundred and three three six thirty
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six hundred and talk to someone. But no matter what,
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just you can you can find out about your rights
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and figure out what the best situation, what the best
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you know, process forward is for each individual. But yeah,
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we're about empower individuals and when union bosses seek to violate.
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Their we want to hold them accountable.
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I have one last question, and that's about the National
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Labor Relations Board, specifically, because I asked Patrick off the air,
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I'm like, okay, what actually what punitive measures are levied
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against unions who continue to engage in the same behavior
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over and over and over again.
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And the answer seems to be pretty much nothing.
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It's like, here, take a re education class that apparently
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has no effect.
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What do we need to do to change.
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The rules at the National Labor Relations Board to put
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teeth into it to really make unions who violate these
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laws pay in some way, shape or form, whether financially,
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whether having their their actions limited to some extent, Like
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what needs to happen there?
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Yeah? Well, it's a good question.
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I mean, I think you know, ultimately the real solution
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would be to repeal all the government powers that let
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union officials engage in these activities.
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So the idea that you can force the worker to.
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Pay user be five to stop that, and that will
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that'll fix a lot of it, because if the union
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is financially accountable, they're not going to be so reckless
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when it comes to viling people's rights. It also goes
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to forcing people under representation they disagree with. But yeah,
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we would like to see some find especially when you
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have I mean, this union is a repeat offender, the
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UFCW Local seven, and I've was looking up some information
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about that. I mean, there are there are a lot
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of people within that union who are members who are
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seeking to get rid of their president because they feel
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she's been really reckless, uh and some of and basically
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is doing what's best for herself and her own power
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and and not what's actually best for the rank and file.
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So we need more accountability and and I'm certainly making
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dues voluntary it would be an important step, but when
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you have a repeat offender, there should be real consequences
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beyond just hey, we won't do it again, and and
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maybe we'll tell everyone, hey, we won't violate your rights
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next time, even though we've done it twice already.
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Aim end of that.
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Patrick Simon's with the National Right to Work Foundation. I
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appreciate your time today and for helping workers here in
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Colorado fight back against just ridiculously unfair treatment. I really
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appreciate it.
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Glad to do it.
