WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.889
Guys, welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator.
00:00:02.092 --> 00:00:04.232
Today with us, we have Steve Fretzin.
00:00:04.251 --> 00:00:05.402
Steve, welcome to the show.
00:00:05.402 --> 00:00:06.442
It's so nice to have you here.
00:00:06.442 --> 00:00:07.282
Thanks for having me.
00:00:07.282 --> 00:00:07.602
Awesome.
00:00:07.652 --> 00:00:08.961
Would you like to introduce yourself?
00:00:09.231 --> 00:00:09.522
Sure.
00:00:09.541 --> 00:00:10.481
I'm Steve Freson.
00:00:10.522 --> 00:00:13.922
I am a internationally known business development coach for lawyers.
00:00:14.231 --> 00:00:16.882
I've been doing this exclusively for about 17 years.
00:00:17.321 --> 00:00:25.641
I work with them really on business development, personal branding, anything that's gonna help them grow their book of business and have long-term sustainable law practices.
00:00:25.641 --> 00:00:26.321
They can be proud of.
00:00:27.032 --> 00:00:31.582
Enjoy the better things in life, like family and travel and all the stuff that's non-billable.
00:00:31.652 --> 00:00:34.921
It's been my absolute pleasure to be a part of this amazing industry.
00:00:35.381 --> 00:00:41.722
As a non-lawyer, by the way, I got pulled into it years ago, but I just find them with the nicest, most wonderful people every day.
00:00:41.722 --> 00:00:44.642
So I'm very fortunate, Viktoria, that I have this particular niche.
00:00:45.002 --> 00:00:48.451
Well, I love that it sounds like you help people find happiness.
00:00:48.572 --> 00:00:48.811
I do.
00:00:48.851 --> 00:00:55.932
I mean, it's nice when someone is being bombarded with billable hours from their partners, manager and clients with all these demands, and then they.
00:00:56.417 --> 00:01:06.527
Start building their own client base, that they can take control of their career and they decide their hours and they can focus on rainmaking as opposed to building two, 3000 hours a year.
00:01:06.746 --> 00:01:09.167
And they can really live the life they wanna live.
00:01:09.186 --> 00:01:10.606
And I'm not gonna say I'm a huge part of that.
00:01:10.606 --> 00:01:20.766
I like to think I'm a part of it, but I give them a lot of credit because ultimately I'm the coach, they're the player, they play the game and play hard, and then they end up winning in the end, which is to me very satisfying.
00:01:20.906 --> 00:01:22.887
So we can call you the rain main maker.
00:01:23.471 --> 00:01:26.402
I've been called the lawyer whisper, but I've never been called the rain rainmaker.
00:01:26.882 --> 00:01:27.242
I like it.
00:01:27.512 --> 00:01:32.641
Okay, so Steve, 1996, something big happened in your life.
00:01:32.742 --> 00:01:34.121
Can you tell me a little bit about this?
00:01:34.352 --> 00:01:34.641
Yeah.
00:01:34.671 --> 00:01:43.682
I'll tell you, I went to Canada with my son and we were on a eight passenger plane flying through the woods to land on a gravel runway in northern Manitoba.
00:01:43.742 --> 00:01:45.001
It did bring back some memories.
00:01:45.121 --> 00:01:49.882
I was in a small plane heading back from Eagle River, Wisconsin to the Chicagoland area.
00:01:50.182 --> 00:01:56.272
The plane had some issues and you hear that sputtering noise that you never want to hear, especially when you're in the plane.
00:01:56.751 --> 00:02:02.272
Ultimately, we ended up crash landing upside down into a house in the north suburban area of Chicagoland.
00:02:02.272 --> 00:02:09.551
Without getting into all the details, I was a human pretzel for a while and I found myself ripped apart along with the plane and all the members in it.
00:02:09.551 --> 00:02:15.072
Turns out we didn't blow up and we didn't kill everybody in the house that we hit because apparently we had run outta gas.
00:02:15.747 --> 00:02:19.167
The first thing any pilot learns is never, ever run outta gas.
00:02:19.306 --> 00:02:21.887
The pilot to this day would probably say that we didn't run outta gas.
00:02:21.907 --> 00:02:28.956
It was a plane issue, but all of the investigations that happened for years after said yes, in fact, there was no gas left in the plane.
00:02:29.067 --> 00:02:32.447
So it was a recovery in many ways, physically, emotionally, and mentally.
00:02:32.667 --> 00:02:42.407
But the one takeaway I can give people who can't believe that this experience happened to me and that I can't believe that I'm walking the earth anyway'cause it's a miracle no matter what situation you're in life.
00:02:42.896 --> 00:02:46.197
You have one shot at making this your life and making this a better place.
00:02:46.426 --> 00:02:58.917
I've dedicated my life and my time to take care of my family, my health, my friends, my clients, my business, and I'm trying to enjoy every moment I can as well as having an impact so that when I leave, hopefully at a very old age.
00:02:59.197 --> 00:03:07.637
I can look back at a well established career leaving the legal industry far better than I found it in the niche that I've chosen, which is helping lawyers grow their law practices.
00:03:07.637 --> 00:03:11.877
Pretty harrowing situation, but you come out the other side on something like that, you gotta make a count.
00:03:12.176 --> 00:03:12.396
Wow.
00:03:12.417 --> 00:03:14.637
That's quite a career turning point.
00:03:15.016 --> 00:03:19.997
You might be the first person to ever spoken that had a literal plane crash as their turning point.
00:03:20.276 --> 00:03:22.717
Well, there's a reason for that because most people die.
00:03:23.296 --> 00:03:29.757
So when you're in a small plane and you hit the ground at 80 miles an hour into hard surfaces, you're not gonna typically walk away.
00:03:29.977 --> 00:03:30.836
And I didn't walk away.
00:03:30.836 --> 00:03:32.676
They dragged me away kicking and screaming.
00:03:32.736 --> 00:03:37.796
We come out the other side on these things sometimes, and if we can, then we have some perspective that maybe other people don't have.
00:03:38.037 --> 00:03:44.852
Very interesting, okay, so you've said that franchising was your greatest education.
00:03:45.312 --> 00:03:46.491
Can you talk to me about that?
00:03:46.722 --> 00:03:47.012
Yeah.
00:03:47.151 --> 00:03:58.961
As a non-lawyer who came up in sales from 16 years old, selling shoes at Kinney's, by the way, if you're over 40, you know the Great American Shoe Store, Kinney's, and working my way up the food chain of sales jobs.
00:03:59.192 --> 00:04:03.722
Selling, advertising, and selling high tech and eventually ending up in franchising.
00:04:03.782 --> 00:04:13.002
The big aha for me was there's something about selling a business and all of the different parts and pieces that go into selling a high ticket item, but here's the more interesting part.
00:04:13.717 --> 00:04:23.516
I had to work with the franchisees on the backend, helping them not only get into business, but then advertise, market, business develop and build a business, build a company.
00:04:23.716 --> 00:04:24.797
I was their support network.
00:04:25.076 --> 00:04:32.317
I had to sit down and review their profit and loss to help them hire, help them fire, help them put ads in the Yellow Pages back when they were Yellow Pages and all this stuff.
00:04:32.427 --> 00:04:40.557
What happened was I transitioned from being a straight up sales guy to being more of a business guy, and I started to really understand the inner workings of business.
00:04:41.117 --> 00:04:59.466
Which set me up beautifully, not only to start my own business, but to help lawyers who not only need assistance with business development, but I also have the background of helping them understand the operations, this tech stack, the things, and I don't do that stuff, but I know enough to help them figure out, Hey, you're gonna need some new software.
00:04:59.466 --> 00:05:00.786
You're gonna need a new employee.
00:05:00.786 --> 00:05:01.747
You're gonna need to delegate.
00:05:02.201 --> 00:05:03.942
And get the business running well.
00:05:04.242 --> 00:05:09.901
So the big aha for me was the understanding of how to be a business person versus just a salesperson.
00:05:10.382 --> 00:05:10.622
Interesting.
00:05:10.651 --> 00:05:10.942
Okay.
00:05:10.961 --> 00:05:12.822
It sounds like you took some lessons from it.
00:05:13.002 --> 00:05:15.781
So here's a question you were maybe not expecting.
00:05:16.322 --> 00:05:19.822
What's the number one thing you should do to become a rainmaker yourself?
00:05:20.081 --> 00:05:23.062
If you wanna become great at something like rainmaking.
00:05:23.737 --> 00:05:31.346
It's not that different than if you want to become a fantastic chef or a great guitar player, or excel at a particular sport, right?
00:05:31.367 --> 00:05:33.987
You have to become a student of the game.
00:05:34.447 --> 00:05:39.826
You have to immerse yourself in the content that's available, the coaching and mentorship that's available.
00:05:40.406 --> 00:05:52.637
You need to become interested in learning, getting an education and understanding that out of a lot of things you could do as a lawyer, nothing will impact your life more than building business.
00:05:52.826 --> 00:05:55.476
Because if you don't have clients, you don't have business.
00:05:55.536 --> 00:05:59.076
If you have lots of clients, you can learn the business side of how to delegate.
00:05:59.557 --> 00:06:09.182
I know so many lawyers now that have built these systems, advertising, marketing, and business development to the degree where they can go take as many trips a year as they want or do whatever lifestyle they want.
00:06:09.182 --> 00:06:11.302
The thing is running like a fine tuned machine.
00:06:11.492 --> 00:06:14.661
That didn't happen without becoming a student of the game.
00:06:14.721 --> 00:06:24.262
So I would say whether I've got five books, I've got a podcast and there's a lot of other people in legal and outta legal that would be very supportive and helpful to a lawyer who says.
00:06:25.026 --> 00:06:32.266
I want to become a great rainmaker and I need to learn what that's all about because rainmakers are made, they are not born that way.
00:06:32.666 --> 00:06:32.906
Interesting.
00:06:32.927 --> 00:06:34.107
I'm not sure if I agree with you there.
00:06:34.487 --> 00:06:35.507
We can debate about this.
00:06:35.576 --> 00:06:35.867
Okay.
00:06:35.887 --> 00:06:42.507
So I think everybody has a specific strength and if you truly want to make a lot of money, you have to find your strength and you lean into it.
00:06:42.906 --> 00:06:45.776
There are some people who are fantastic at systems.
00:06:45.956 --> 00:06:46.617
I'm one of those people.
00:06:46.666 --> 00:06:48.896
There are other people who are fantastic at sales.
00:06:49.026 --> 00:07:02.536
There are other people who are fantastic at management and whatever it is that you are born to do, if you could do that and outsource the rest, hire people to do the rest, that's when you make the most money, well be the most happy.
00:07:02.937 --> 00:07:07.656
I think learning is certainly a part of it, but you have to lean into your natural gifts, right?
00:07:07.956 --> 00:07:08.857
So yes and no.
00:07:09.036 --> 00:07:10.336
Here's my point, counterpoint.
00:07:10.536 --> 00:07:13.396
I know this because I I work with very introverted attorneys.
00:07:13.437 --> 00:07:15.117
I work with very extroverted attorneys.
00:07:15.156 --> 00:07:18.596
I work with attorneys that can make friends with the devil and get away with it.
00:07:18.596 --> 00:07:20.396
And there's people who can barely make eye contact.
00:07:20.656 --> 00:07:21.637
And here's what I've found.
00:07:21.637 --> 00:07:31.757
Yes, there are people who have very strong relationship skills and personalities that make them likable and make them trustworthy, where rainmaking is gonna come more naturally to them.
00:07:32.297 --> 00:07:36.576
They're gonna have an easier path and ride to get to the rainmaking peak.
00:07:36.576 --> 00:07:39.641
Other people may have to work a little more to get to that point.
00:07:39.742 --> 00:07:46.122
But because I teach business development, relationships, time management, I teach process as a part of my business.
00:07:46.401 --> 00:07:55.357
I get to see firsthand the introvert who hates networking, and the person whose personality, I mean, if somebody's a terrible personality and no one's gonna like them.
00:07:55.576 --> 00:07:57.076
No, they're not gonna be a great rainmaker.
00:07:57.127 --> 00:07:59.976
They would have to change everything about themselves to do it.
00:08:00.237 --> 00:08:15.016
But if I find someone who is likable is very good practitioner at law, and we can provide that person plans and processes and systems and get them comfortable with following a routine of what will make them successful as a rainmaker in business development.
00:08:15.117 --> 00:08:20.137
That's a much easier path than them figuring it out and going against the grain for a number of years.
00:08:20.197 --> 00:08:28.091
So I think you're right to some degree that there are people supposed to being a rainmaker, but that's like an eighties, nineties thing.
00:08:28.112 --> 00:08:30.732
The golfing and glad handing at the golf club.
00:08:31.172 --> 00:08:39.211
A lot of people can make things happen through systems and through social media, through building a brand that wasn't necessarily available 20 and 30 years ago.
00:08:39.591 --> 00:08:45.131
It sounds like you've almost developed like a franchise solution to a small law office where.
00:08:45.831 --> 00:08:51.772
You give them the entire system that they can implement to have that rainmaking potential.
00:08:52.162 --> 00:08:53.731
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.
00:08:53.961 --> 00:09:00.892
It's all proven systems that when I have a class of 12 or 15 lawyers that meet every week for a training class.
00:09:01.111 --> 00:09:10.662
The goal is that not only we teach them planning and execution and all the different elements of business development and marketing, but that eventually they all start talking the same language.
00:09:10.662 --> 00:09:14.302
They're all doing the same things the same way, in their own special way.
00:09:14.302 --> 00:09:15.782
They're all out networking.
00:09:15.782 --> 00:09:20.501
They're all out leveraging clients for quality introductions for new business.
00:09:20.611 --> 00:09:22.062
They're cross marketing.
00:09:22.422 --> 00:09:27.626
They're doing all the things that they had never done before in a very advanced and polished way.
00:09:28.006 --> 00:09:34.586
The goal is that they're internalizing how to do business development as a learned skill so that they never need me again.
00:09:34.586 --> 00:09:42.052
They could just go off and continue this progress year after year, getting better results because they now own these skills that they never learned before.
00:09:42.226 --> 00:09:42.667
I love it.
00:09:42.856 --> 00:09:43.947
What a cool thing you've done.
00:09:44.287 --> 00:09:48.226
So you worked across 50 industries, focusing on lawyers.
00:09:48.687 --> 00:09:50.907
Why did you decide lawyers specifically?
00:09:51.206 --> 00:09:53.586
So, yeah, to your point, I worked with a Caribbean medical school.
00:09:53.706 --> 00:09:54.667
I worked with a carpet cleaner.
00:09:54.866 --> 00:09:56.346
I worked with Chicago Tribune.
00:09:56.537 --> 00:10:00.826
I've worked all over the place and in 2008 and 9, when the recession hit.
00:10:01.356 --> 00:10:04.677
I had never worked with an attorney and someone said, Hey, would you work with an attorney?
00:10:04.746 --> 00:10:06.277
They just lost their GC job.
00:10:06.277 --> 00:10:07.317
They need to go out on their own.
00:10:07.346 --> 00:10:14.116
Then another attorney, then another, then a law firm, and within 16 months to two years, it became about 85% of my business.
00:10:14.267 --> 00:10:16.437
I'll tell you the two reasons why that happened.
00:10:16.456 --> 00:10:20.802
Number one, lawyers don't learn anything about business development in law school.
00:10:20.822 --> 00:10:28.481
So it's like a gap that's keeping them from being successful and making it very difficult for them to grow in a sustainable way.
00:10:28.682 --> 00:10:31.162
'Cause they're just winging it, trying to hope that things work out.
00:10:31.412 --> 00:10:34.402
There was a need in the industry that wasn't being filled at the time.
00:10:34.782 --> 00:10:39.802
Now there's tons of coaches and I'm happy that exists and maybe I've been around a little block a little longer than others.
00:10:39.902 --> 00:10:42.522
But the other piece of it is that I came with a system.
00:10:43.086 --> 00:10:45.856
That helps people to learn business development and be rainmakers.
00:10:46.086 --> 00:10:47.736
It's called Sales-Free Selling.
00:10:48.047 --> 00:11:01.817
It's the title of my first book and it's the system that I created in studying with other coaches and reading and really putting together a model that I knew would work for everybody, but in particular, works really well for lawyers because lawyers hate sales.
00:11:02.417 --> 00:11:03.417
They hate being sold to.
00:11:03.716 --> 00:11:08.297
Nobody ever became a lawyer to say, Hey, I can't wait to get out and start selling my services.
00:11:08.517 --> 00:11:11.096
But if there was a system that was sales free.
00:11:11.761 --> 00:11:17.412
That allowed them to develop a book of business and develop their brand without selling, convincing, pitching.
00:11:17.881 --> 00:11:20.251
Well, that's a very attractive opportunity.
00:11:20.471 --> 00:11:26.221
The need existed, the system existed that made it comfortable for them, and it was like Reese's Peanut butter Cups.
00:11:26.221 --> 00:11:30.067
Chocolate and peanut butter put together, it's been a match made in heaven ever since.
00:11:30.287 --> 00:11:33.706
So you found the place where you felt you could do the most impact quickest.
00:11:33.817 --> 00:11:35.667
It's exactly why I worked with lawyers as well.
00:11:35.976 --> 00:11:36.267
Yeah.
00:11:36.267 --> 00:11:42.067
Sometimes when you find something special and you find a connection, it's exciting because you may never have been something you realize.
00:11:42.126 --> 00:11:46.106
But once you recognize that you're meant to be there, then all the walls come down.
00:11:46.527 --> 00:11:48.267
You can just lean into it and enjoy it.
00:11:48.576 --> 00:11:49.547
That makes perfect sense.
00:11:49.846 --> 00:11:52.106
So talk to me about Sales-Free Selling.
00:11:52.376 --> 00:11:53.466
What exactly does that mean?
00:11:54.277 --> 00:12:02.366
What it means is that there is a disconnect that came upon us in the last, let's say 25 years.
00:12:02.626 --> 00:12:09.767
Before the advent of the internet, people were selling services, people were buying services, but it was a very competitive environment.
00:12:09.826 --> 00:12:15.486
If you think about buying a car, you think about what it would mean to meet with a new financial planner or insurance person.
00:12:16.116 --> 00:12:20.241
They're just trying to sell you and you're trying to protect yourself so you don't get screwed.
00:12:20.471 --> 00:12:23.121
That defines the last hundred years of sales.
00:12:23.422 --> 00:12:28.881
And in the last 25 years with the advent of the internet, there's so much information, there's so much competition.
00:12:29.091 --> 00:12:29.761
Think about this.
00:12:29.761 --> 00:12:33.721
You go to a restaurant, you research the restaurant, you can look at the five star reviews.
00:12:33.822 --> 00:12:35.522
You can hear what people say.
00:12:35.822 --> 00:12:37.162
You can look at pictures and images.
00:12:37.162 --> 00:12:43.456
There's just so much more now than there used to be, but people are still selling the same way where it's me against you.
00:12:43.716 --> 00:12:45.576
And that's not fun for anybody.
00:12:45.897 --> 00:12:49.336
I don't think anybody likes selling and I don't think anybody likes being sold to.
00:12:49.756 --> 00:12:55.537
So Sales-Free Selling was based on the idea that as the lawyer or as the coach or whatever it is that we're doing.
00:12:56.096 --> 00:12:57.326
We're not gonna sell a service.
00:12:57.397 --> 00:12:59.927
What we're gonna do is help someone buy a service.
00:13:00.506 --> 00:13:12.126
So the idea that I'm gonna meet with a lawyer and walk them through a buying decision to identify if I'm the right coach, if what they need is what I solve, and do we feel that there's a fit to work together.
00:13:12.307 --> 00:13:15.246
If so, let's move that forward together.
00:13:15.746 --> 00:13:19.366
And if it's not a fit, let's exit and stay friends.
00:13:19.856 --> 00:13:21.687
Let's not invest more time with each other.
00:13:22.532 --> 00:13:25.581
It's about moving someone forward or moving someone out.
00:13:25.761 --> 00:13:32.142
If we can quickly identify who's qualified to move forward and who's disqualified to move out, we're not wasting their time or ours.
00:13:32.192 --> 00:13:38.621
We're understanding if the fit is perfect, we can cooperate and collaborate in a way that means, Hey, this is a win-win.
00:13:38.792 --> 00:13:40.861
Let's continue to work together.
00:13:41.282 --> 00:13:43.701
And so lawyers can really appreciate that.
00:13:43.892 --> 00:13:45.302
It's not about pitching the firm.
00:13:45.652 --> 00:13:50.422
It's more about, let me ask you questions, let me understand what your legal needs are.
00:13:50.522 --> 00:13:54.471
How deep that rabbit hole goes and am I the best person for you?
00:13:54.932 --> 00:13:58.432
And do you believe that as much as I believe that, and if so, let's keep moving forward.
00:13:58.572 --> 00:14:01.351
If not, I'll refer you to someone that might be a better fit.
00:14:01.351 --> 00:14:09.231
And I do that, by the way, for me, as a lawyer coach all the time, I'm referring people away because they want something different than what I provide.
00:14:09.231 --> 00:14:09.991
They want a website.
00:14:09.991 --> 00:14:10.871
Well, I don't do websites.
00:14:10.902 --> 00:14:12.672
They need scaling and operational help.
00:14:12.672 --> 00:14:13.672
Well, I know people for that.
00:14:13.672 --> 00:14:14.511
That's not what I do.
00:14:14.731 --> 00:14:15.912
I'm dangerous in all those areas.
00:14:16.032 --> 00:14:16.631
I know a lot about it.
00:14:17.131 --> 00:14:18.711
But that's not anything I deliver.
00:14:19.172 --> 00:14:22.351
So I'm gonna push them in a direction and say, let's stay friends.
00:14:22.532 --> 00:14:25.272
I'm gonna help you out and I'm gonna actually try to get you to the right person.
00:14:25.782 --> 00:14:29.272
Everybody feels good when there's a win-win and when there's a fit.
00:14:29.412 --> 00:14:39.331
And that's what I'm trying to help lawyers understand what Sales-Free Selling, that this model will save them time, make them money, help them find the right clients, and everybody can win in that scenario.
00:14:39.481 --> 00:14:42.572
Yeah, that's much softer approach than the traditional marketing.
00:14:42.721 --> 00:14:54.812
What do you do with lawyers who have an onboarding specialist or instead of doing a lawyer consultation, they actually have a system where they have a person in their firm whose job is to sign up as many people as possible.
00:14:54.841 --> 00:14:55.692
What would you say to them?
00:14:55.892 --> 00:14:56.091
I think.
00:14:56.647 --> 00:15:05.626
If I'm really working with the lawyers who are bringing in the business, and then if they have someone answering the phone and doing intake, I would wanna know what their intake process is.
00:15:05.787 --> 00:15:10.106
I would wanna make sure that they have a sales free methodology for how they're doing intake.
00:15:10.246 --> 00:15:27.471
So that they're responsive, client-centric and continually moving people forward to address that fit and make sure they're signing up everybody that should be signing up and not losing opportunities because they have a weak performer or lack of a system for finishing the story.
00:15:28.206 --> 00:15:35.386
We spent all this time, money, and energy to drive this traffic into the firm, and now we've got someone who's bungling it at the end, not on my watch.
00:15:35.496 --> 00:15:41.307
Yeah, it's not necessarily that you are anti sales, you just wanna have a very clean process to follow.
00:15:41.576 --> 00:15:44.147
That is sort of consultative selling approach.
00:15:44.496 --> 00:15:45.586
It's not anti sales.
00:15:45.826 --> 00:15:47.746
I mean, I think lawyers are anti sales.
00:15:47.976 --> 00:15:53.677
It's really about can we agree on a process where everybody feels listened to, understood.
00:15:54.157 --> 00:15:58.542
And that the belief that the solutions we provide are the right solutions.
00:15:58.642 --> 00:16:09.341
And the prospective client believes that we have the right solutions so that everybody's moving forward, feeling good, because then when we implement the client, we all have a good feeling there wasn't any sales that led to some distrust.
00:16:09.481 --> 00:16:24.576
We can keep building on that client trust and help them with their matter and develop a client relationship and loyalty that can go for years that provides opportunities for cross marketing, for referrals to really be a bigger part of that individual's life.
00:16:24.886 --> 00:16:26.057
More than just being a lawyer.
00:16:26.177 --> 00:16:33.136
I try to help lawyers become counselors where they're really like a business advisor for their clients, not just handling matters.
00:16:33.397 --> 00:16:37.096
And that's a flip of a switch that we work on a pretty regular basis as well.
00:16:37.456 --> 00:16:37.616
Interesting.
00:16:37.736 --> 00:16:38.096
I like it.
00:16:38.317 --> 00:16:43.697
One of my favorite questions to ask on my podcast is talk to me about your worst marketing mistake.
00:16:44.501 --> 00:16:55.121
Now, I know you've spoken very openly about your own mistakes, and you've actually said that at one point you ran four companies at once, and I believe you said that was a mistake.
00:16:55.231 --> 00:16:55.961
Talk to me about this.
00:16:56.072 --> 00:16:58.402
That wasn't a marketing mistake that was a business mistake.
00:16:58.501 --> 00:17:01.562
But I don't believe that we can improve as humans.
00:17:01.902 --> 00:17:05.761
We can improve as business professionals without making some mistakes.
00:17:06.021 --> 00:17:11.616
And the idea that if I just stayed with my core business of business development, coaching, and training.
00:17:11.826 --> 00:17:13.696
Would I be further along than I am now?
00:17:13.926 --> 00:17:14.616
It's possible.
00:17:14.876 --> 00:17:16.856
But I set up a recruiting business.
00:17:16.977 --> 00:17:18.777
I set up an executive coaching business.
00:17:18.896 --> 00:17:20.576
I had a networking website.
00:17:20.817 --> 00:17:25.096
I kept finding businesses that were necessary and needed in my space.
00:17:25.317 --> 00:17:31.136
But when I started working with lawyers and realizing that's really the area that I want to focus on and that I was really.
00:17:32.027 --> 00:17:38.626
Enjoying the coaching and training and just getting distracted by all the other things I was dealing with, and not to mention huge overhead.
00:17:38.866 --> 00:17:40.106
I needed to refocus.
00:17:40.386 --> 00:17:46.646
I sat down with a coach who looked at everything I was doing and got me to admit that I'm not focused here.
00:17:46.817 --> 00:17:52.707
That I'm everywhere doing everything, and I'm not enjoying myself and not helping as many people as I could be helping.
00:17:52.926 --> 00:17:54.586
So that's a business mistake.
00:17:54.787 --> 00:18:04.826
A marketing mistake I made was I set up video-based coaching and training, so a lot of people have video-based training programs so that you can get a subscription, but I did it too soon.
00:18:05.027 --> 00:18:12.136
I think if I was to do that now or in the future, I'd probably have the marketing engine to help run it, but I didn't have a strong enough brand to support it.
00:18:12.156 --> 00:18:19.696
So I invested a lot of time, money, and energy in a platform of doing video-based coaching and training for people, and it was a big flop.
00:18:20.017 --> 00:18:22.057
I ended up losing a year of my life doing that.
00:18:22.237 --> 00:18:26.017
If I had to do it over, I learned from those mistakes and do it right the second time.
00:18:26.156 --> 00:18:28.376
But I also know that's not necessarily my jam either.
00:18:28.616 --> 00:18:32.561
I think these are all things that help us become better and stronger professionals.
00:18:32.961 --> 00:18:33.162
Interesting.
00:18:33.162 --> 00:18:35.041
When did you set up this video platform?
00:18:35.321 --> 00:18:37.961
I would say it was probably around eight years ago.
00:18:38.162 --> 00:18:53.082
I thought I was ahead of things, but maybe I was too far ahead of things because lawyers really are scared by the concept of business development, and there's only probably 5% of the legal population that's openly interested in looking for content in that area.
00:18:53.541 --> 00:18:57.801
And the idea of watching videos or hiring a coach or engaging someone to help them.
00:18:58.356 --> 00:19:00.777
That's a very small percentage of the legal population.
00:19:00.916 --> 00:19:06.457
I'm working within a niche to help the most motivated, ambitious attorneys, but it's not into the thousands.
00:19:06.457 --> 00:19:12.136
It's into the hundreds or into the dozens that are actually gonna reach out and take action and something like that.
00:19:12.277 --> 00:19:13.616
But it was a good experience just doing it.
00:19:13.896 --> 00:19:19.896
I was gonna say that a lot of times with new tech as marketers, as business people, we want to jump on the new tech.
00:19:20.402 --> 00:19:28.231
What I found is that you're better off letting a big company use it first so they can prove the concept before you jump in and start investing your own.
00:19:28.582 --> 00:19:32.352
Once a bunch of people are doing it, then you can go in and be like, okay, how can I make this even better?
00:19:32.461 --> 00:19:32.951
Fair enough.
00:19:33.021 --> 00:19:37.152
Okay, so you said you limit your practice to just 20 clients.
00:19:37.571 --> 00:19:38.511
That's a tight number.
00:19:38.511 --> 00:19:41.692
That's smaller than the amount of clients I have.
00:19:41.692 --> 00:19:42.932
Why do you do this?
00:19:43.086 --> 00:19:44.227
And how does it work?
00:19:44.727 --> 00:19:48.027
So when we talk about 20 clients, that's a ballpark.
00:19:48.027 --> 00:19:52.707
Those are my coaching and training clients, and I spend a significant amount of time with them.
00:19:53.047 --> 00:20:02.346
And if I was doing 30, 40, 50 and I had to cut back on the amount of time that I spent with them, it would've impact my ability to help them in a dramatic and significant way.
00:20:02.666 --> 00:20:11.946
I set up my fee structure and the classes I teach and how I bring people in to hit that mark of 20 to keep the quality as high as possible.
00:20:12.557 --> 00:20:13.737
And my time is at a premium?
00:20:14.237 --> 00:20:15.096
And so that's that.
00:20:15.317 --> 00:20:28.186
Now, I also run these rainmaker round tables, and those are groups that meet monthly, and I've got about 40 clients in there, so it's really 60 clients, but 20 that I have to really invest a significant amount of time in every day and every week.
00:20:28.477 --> 00:20:32.721
And then 40 that are more group centric than individual centric.
00:20:32.791 --> 00:20:37.922
It's easier for me to coordinate and I could grow that to 60, 70, 80, a hundred people over the next five years.
00:20:38.182 --> 00:20:43.241
And because they're getting great value from being a part of those groups, they do have me on retainer.
00:20:43.771 --> 00:20:46.951
But it's not like they're meeting with me for an hour a month every month.
00:20:47.211 --> 00:20:50.592
So that's why 2020 is the magic number for coaching and training.
00:20:50.701 --> 00:20:54.592
Yeah, I guess a coaching business is a little harder to scale than a digital agency.
00:20:54.612 --> 00:20:56.392
You can't exactly clone yourself.
00:20:56.701 --> 00:21:00.951
I've brought in people in the past to clone myself, and here's something I realized.
00:21:01.231 --> 00:21:02.711
I really don't enjoy managing people.
00:21:03.031 --> 00:21:07.376
I have one assistant, it's a VA, and I don't really enjoy managing him quite frankly.
00:21:07.446 --> 00:21:16.176
There's things that need to get done, and I'm a big delegator, so I have to do it, but to have a coach work under me or two or three or four, I've tried that before and it wasn't fun or interesting.
00:21:16.297 --> 00:21:21.737
I think maybe my expectations of what I do and what I expect other people to do similar to me are too high.
00:21:21.876 --> 00:21:25.537
If they're not as motivated as me and they're not following the systems that I'm teaching.
00:21:26.366 --> 00:21:33.366
I would teach someone sales free selling so that they could be a coach under me, and then they weren't using sales free selling to go out and meet with clients.
00:21:33.426 --> 00:21:34.326
That's hypocritical.
00:21:34.446 --> 00:21:39.126
I just have found that I'd rather build a business that's high profit, low overhead.
00:21:39.247 --> 00:21:41.606
Provides me the ability to work four days a week, not five.
00:21:42.267 --> 00:21:50.557
Take vacations, make great money, help a lot of people, but I'm helping the most interested, coachable people, not everybody.
00:21:50.777 --> 00:21:54.557
And that makes my life better because I'm working with really wonderful people.
00:21:54.666 --> 00:22:00.477
Back in the day when I used to work with law firms, they would give me 10 or 15 people to work with, and most of them were problem children.
00:22:01.172 --> 00:22:04.622
Most of them had a lack of interest in anything I had to say.
00:22:04.852 --> 00:22:08.622
They couldn't wait to get away from me to go back to their desk and get back to the billable hour.
00:22:08.731 --> 00:22:11.102
That wasn't fun or interesting to me at all.
00:22:11.372 --> 00:22:15.781
That was nothing but a nuisance to me because I'm working with people who aren't enjoyable to work with.
00:22:16.001 --> 00:22:22.432
So I've created a business and a system where I only work with people who are as motivated as me to grow business.
00:22:22.491 --> 00:22:28.791
And then we partner together and have the most incredible time together because I know that they're highly qualified to be in the room with me.
00:22:28.971 --> 00:22:35.832
So I think you touched upon something very important here, and this is a conversation I have with people every time I interview them.
00:22:35.842 --> 00:22:41.951
Being successful in business is not necessarily about making the most amount of money per year for some people.
00:22:42.481 --> 00:22:51.251
That may be what leads to their happiness, but I think for most of us, it's the balance of doing the things we love, making a great living and having the kind of freedom you want.
00:22:51.311 --> 00:22:52.932
You mentioned working four days a week.
00:22:53.011 --> 00:22:55.471
I prefer to work seven days a week, but only a few hours a day.
00:22:55.491 --> 00:23:00.251
I think when we build businesses, and I'm sure when you're coaching people to build businesses, this is not my first rodeo.
00:23:00.521 --> 00:23:01.852
I've never actually had a job.
00:23:01.922 --> 00:23:03.332
I've always been an employer.
00:23:03.682 --> 00:23:08.291
It's all about creating the lifestyle you want rather than necessarily just the bank account.
00:23:08.291 --> 00:23:14.751
The bank account is a part of the lifestyle, but it is not nearly the whole lifestyle, as you know, and I'm sure as you teach people as well.
00:23:14.781 --> 00:23:15.071
Yeah.
00:23:15.471 --> 00:23:20.192
I live in the North Shore Chicago in a little town called Fort Sheridan.
00:23:20.422 --> 00:23:24.912
It's a military base that was converted over into residential in 2000s.
00:23:24.932 --> 00:23:27.642
I'm in a late 1800s horse stable that was renovated.
00:23:28.201 --> 00:23:30.122
I walk down to Lake Michigan with my wife.
00:23:30.521 --> 00:23:32.761
I walk into our town for drinks and live music.
00:23:33.461 --> 00:23:35.971
We're in our dream house and we own it free and clear.
00:23:36.432 --> 00:23:37.332
My son's college.
00:23:37.471 --> 00:23:38.451
His college is paid for.
00:23:38.451 --> 00:23:40.932
He is not gonna have any debt and we've got retirement.
00:23:40.991 --> 00:23:44.092
My wife's a teacher, so we've got a huge pension coming her way in three years.
00:23:44.231 --> 00:23:47.451
So how much money does it take to make someone happy?
00:23:47.852 --> 00:23:51.291
I thought I wanted stuff like back when I was in my early thirties, I wanted it all.
00:23:51.432 --> 00:23:54.172
And as you get older, you start to realize what really matters.
00:23:54.471 --> 00:24:01.731
And to me, it's health, family, security, knowing that I have enough money to take care of myself and my family for the rest of my life, which we have.
00:24:01.832 --> 00:24:03.852
We can take nice trips and enjoy life.
00:24:04.071 --> 00:24:06.092
It isn't about stuff I want to get rid of stuff.
00:24:06.092 --> 00:24:06.971
That's an interesting thing too.
00:24:06.971 --> 00:24:09.132
When you get certain an age, you're like, how can I get rid of stuff?
00:24:09.442 --> 00:24:11.211
Like I don't like all the stuff I have.
00:24:11.271 --> 00:24:13.771
How can I clear the clutter of all the things we accumulate?
00:24:13.832 --> 00:24:16.701
So I would take happiness over money any day.
00:24:16.771 --> 00:24:17.751
I think most people would.
00:24:18.112 --> 00:24:23.771
But there's a lot of people that have tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, and they're absolutely miserable with it.
00:24:24.481 --> 00:24:26.942
It can buy you some things, but it certainly can't buy you happiness.
00:24:27.092 --> 00:24:27.622
Very true.
00:24:27.761 --> 00:24:30.902
So I was originally born in Russia and there is a Russian thing.
00:24:31.211 --> 00:24:35.281
It's better to be rich and healthy than it's to be poor and sick.
00:24:35.541 --> 00:24:37.821
I think it's poor and happy than rich and sick.
00:24:38.162 --> 00:24:38.382
No.
00:24:38.741 --> 00:24:39.882
That's the American
00:24:39.882 --> 00:24:40.182
saying.
00:24:40.201 --> 00:24:41.701
Of course it's better to be healthy and rich.
00:24:41.882 --> 00:24:42.662
You wouldn't want that.
00:24:42.971 --> 00:24:44.301
Well, that's the joke.
00:24:44.301 --> 00:24:46.471
It's always better to have everything if you can.
00:24:46.471 --> 00:24:51.201
It's better to be happy and healthy and have lots of money if that's an option.
00:24:51.271 --> 00:24:51.832
I'm with you on that.
00:24:52.251 --> 00:24:52.951
So, okay.
00:24:53.332 --> 00:24:59.432
You have a podcast as well, and on your podcast, BE THAT LAWYER, you interviewed a lot of top rainmakers.
00:24:59.981 --> 00:25:05.112
What is the most counterintuitive thing that's helping them succeed?
00:25:05.332 --> 00:25:11.912
The rainmakers I've interviewed, there were a lot of common themes to what they would say made them successful.
00:25:12.413 --> 00:25:22.073
One of them was a drive and a motivation to build their own client base and to make business development and rainmaking their business, not billable hours.
00:25:22.103 --> 00:25:24.432
They're changing the script of what it means to be a lawyer.
00:25:24.553 --> 00:25:37.432
A lawyer is someone who does the work and grinds it out behind the desk, type it on the computer, and they're saying, Hey, I actually can help a lot more people and make a lot more money and have a better lifestyle if I focus on business development in the rainmaking.
00:25:37.532 --> 00:25:41.153
So that was a common theme of their drive and motivation to that end of it.
00:25:41.867 --> 00:25:48.248
It doesn't mean that, and they have to be a great lawyer to you gotta know what you're doing, but not to focus on the lawyering aspect of it.
00:25:48.248 --> 00:25:49.208
That was one piece of it.
00:25:49.208 --> 00:25:59.768
Another element that came up repeatedly, and this is all in my book, behind me, Be That Lawyer: 101 Top Rainmaker Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice, which is it's important to have great support.
00:26:00.147 --> 00:26:14.327
You cannot become a rainmaker and bring in all this business if you don't have a paralegal, an associate, a team, a staff, a group that you know is gonna help you create great client service and get a great outcome for the matter.
00:26:14.428 --> 00:26:15.607
That's all really critical.
00:26:15.907 --> 00:26:22.288
So ultimately, motivation and drive to do it, having great support and if you don't have great support, you need to get great support.
00:26:22.288 --> 00:26:24.807
Another one is having great systems and processes.
00:26:25.647 --> 00:26:30.978
I've spoken about business development systems and processes, but also do you have the technology?
00:26:31.198 --> 00:26:32.738
Do you have the marketing?
00:26:32.738 --> 00:26:45.163
Do you have the systems in place so that when you bring in business, it becomes almost automated, almost like an assembly line, so that you can run like a John Morgan of Morgan Morgan, the top personal injury group in the country.
00:26:45.432 --> 00:26:46.603
It's the John Morgan way.
00:26:46.673 --> 00:26:57.403
He's got a process that every group, every office that he has, a thousand lawyers, they all are singing the same song, marching to the same step, and they're all following the John Morgan system.
00:26:57.542 --> 00:27:04.923
So I think that's another, I would say the motivation, having great support and great systems work, common themes through the podcast and through the book.
00:27:05.022 --> 00:27:16.522
And that's certainly very logical, but I bet you have something that you found that was counterintuitive, that maybe didn't make sense, but you keep seeing it on people and what is it?
00:27:16.623 --> 00:27:24.762
People who are introverts and they would talk about leveraging their introversion as a strength.
00:27:24.903 --> 00:27:27.442
Asking more questions instead of talking.
00:27:27.752 --> 00:27:34.617
Instead of going to big cocktail parties, focusing on small groups and one-on-one meetings where they can be more successful.
00:27:34.837 --> 00:27:47.478
So it was a situation where it was very helpful to lawyers who listen to my show that are introverts and are terrified of the people in the interaction and could never see themselves on a podcast around a stage doing this kind of thing.
00:27:48.228 --> 00:27:52.597
That a lot of it is in their head, but even if it's real, there are ways around it.
00:27:52.817 --> 00:28:03.518
And so I thought that was kind of content that was coming on the show that was counterintuitive to what people think about introverts and how they can handle business development and be successful in it, even though it doesn't come naturally.
00:28:04.397 --> 00:28:04.837
I love that.
00:28:04.897 --> 00:28:09.373
So I'm currently reading a book by Bill Gates, about his life called Source Code.
00:28:09.563 --> 00:28:12.573
Bill Gates doesn't seem like a particularly extroverted person.
00:28:12.752 --> 00:28:16.692
He seems kind of nerdy and geek, sort of the kind of guy who sits in the corner.
00:28:17.113 --> 00:28:20.972
And so I'm reading this book and it turns out he actually did exactly this.
00:28:22.248 --> 00:28:33.127
He took his introversion and channeled it into this because he's such an intense person like really being good at business and negotiating, and that's actually how he ended up so successful.
00:28:33.478 --> 00:28:36.407
Intensity and that inner focus turned it out.
00:28:36.637 --> 00:28:38.208
It's a very good book for an introvert.
00:28:39.053 --> 00:28:40.673
Who is not sure they can make it in business.
00:28:40.792 --> 00:28:42.472
I mean, he's done pretty well for himself.
00:28:42.692 --> 00:28:47.113
So speaking of books, is there any books that you could think of that you love?
00:28:47.113 --> 00:28:48.673
Any nonfiction books that you love?
00:28:48.813 --> 00:28:53.113
One that I regularly talk about and actually buy many copies of and give to my clients.
00:28:53.282 --> 00:28:57.522
This is the only non Steve Frezen book that I send them, but I do it religiously.
00:28:57.522 --> 00:28:58.883
It's called Getting Things Done.
00:28:59.232 --> 00:29:02.002
It's by David Allen and it's changed my life.
00:29:02.202 --> 00:29:05.803
I tell people on the regular that I'm not built for organization.
00:29:05.982 --> 00:29:11.482
I'm a feather on the wind, which is why I had four businesses at one point and went through all that because I'm just built that way.
00:29:11.982 --> 00:29:13.883
And like you maybe a serial entrepreneur.
00:29:14.222 --> 00:29:18.083
So staying focused and staying organized is not something that comes naturally in me.
00:29:18.083 --> 00:29:18.242
So.
00:29:19.093 --> 00:29:23.012
I needed to read a book and implement a system of how I deal with time.
00:29:23.573 --> 00:29:25.692
I don't do every single thing that he says to do.
00:29:25.893 --> 00:29:30.573
I don't have my email set up the way he says, and I don't go to the grocery store with a specific list.
00:29:30.752 --> 00:29:34.333
I'm gonna go to the grocery store and maybe on the way I need to make a stop somewhere.
00:29:34.333 --> 00:29:36.053
So I'm making one trip, but that's common sense.
00:29:36.192 --> 00:29:42.573
But getting things done really provides a way of clearing the clutter, so I have no paper anywhere near me.
00:29:42.813 --> 00:29:45.093
I put everything on my remarkable two tablet.
00:29:46.067 --> 00:29:49.028
I stopped working Fridays, so I'm working four days a week.
00:29:49.228 --> 00:29:50.708
I delegate everything I can.
00:29:50.958 --> 00:29:55.508
Every little piece of everything I can delegate that isn't worth my time gets delegated out.
00:29:55.728 --> 00:30:03.667
I'm trying to be the poster child for getting things done and also for my clients to say, look, I know you've got 500 emails in your inbox that are on open.
00:30:03.877 --> 00:30:11.907
Let's work out a way to get through that, to clear the clutter, get to that zero inbox, and stay there as well as all the piles you have.
00:30:12.383 --> 00:30:15.643
And I'll help them work through that along with David Allen in that great book.
00:30:15.843 --> 00:30:16.323
I like that.
00:30:16.472 --> 00:30:17.482
I'll have to check it out.
00:30:18.002 --> 00:30:22.002
Speaking of getting lawyers organized, I'm extremely organized because I have to be.
00:30:22.163 --> 00:30:27.083
I have ADD, which means either organize or unsuccessful, and I like being successful.
00:30:27.182 --> 00:30:30.603
How do you get lawyers to get more organized and cooperate?
00:30:31.143 --> 00:30:34.202
That's been a challenge for us, as a marketing agency for lawyers.
00:30:34.643 --> 00:30:39.042
I mean, I'm putting them in a situation where it's impacting and affecting.
00:30:39.692 --> 00:30:42.962
Their ability to be successful at business development and growing.
00:30:43.063 --> 00:30:47.603
If they're disorganized all over the place, then how are they gonna have time to do business development?
00:30:47.603 --> 00:30:49.403
How are they gonna use their time efficiently?
00:30:49.462 --> 00:30:54.242
So I'm putting them in a corner where they have to learn and be more organized.
00:30:54.887 --> 00:30:59.053
Something I do with many of my clients is I have them track their day and send it to me.
00:30:59.153 --> 00:31:05.692
So let's see, what did you do from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM and track it in 15 minute increments, like you would track your billable time.
00:31:06.212 --> 00:31:15.452
I find that they're going on Amazon, or I find that they're doing administrative tasks or low level marketing tasks and things they should be delegating to a paralegal or an associate.
00:31:15.992 --> 00:31:22.035
We start to work out, Hey, you realize three hours of your day was something you shouldn't be doing, and it's disorganized.
00:31:22.134 --> 00:31:23.555
The disorganization isn't helping.
00:31:23.775 --> 00:31:32.474
We need to work through that together and clear that out so that they can get that time reclaimed and focused on working with clients and billable hours.
00:31:32.535 --> 00:31:34.859
In many cases, business development billable hours.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.119
Those are kind of two important things to focus on.
00:31:37.269 --> 00:31:43.039
Yeah, definitely tracking time is a good way to get folks to start being a little more cooperative.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.349
Let's circle back to fear.
00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:57.359
Now, your crash experience gave you a very rare perspective when a client or an attorney that you are working with is stuck in fear, especially asking for business closing clients.
00:31:57.779 --> 00:31:59.240
How do you help them break through that?
00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:02.650
Well, I don't say just do it trust me, it'll work or just trust me.
00:32:03.414 --> 00:32:06.434
That's not something that lawyers respond well to.
00:32:06.664 --> 00:32:10.275
What I would rather do is explain to them a way of doing it.
00:32:10.464 --> 00:32:13.755
Deal with their skepticism and their risk aversion and their fear.
00:32:14.144 --> 00:32:18.115
Work out some language for them to get through it so that they can attempt.
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:27.200
For example, asking for an introduction from a client to another client, whatever the fear is that they have, and saying to them, Hey, let's try it one time this way.
00:32:27.470 --> 00:32:28.119
Just try it.
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:29.559
You know, it's like going on a rollercoaster.
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:31.160
Once you go on one, you can go on all the others.
00:32:31.660 --> 00:32:43.150
And the idea is that on the other side of that fear is proof and evidence that a lot of it was in their head and with a system and language, they can accomplish almost anything that they're concerned and have fear about.
00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:49.789
It's the winging it and not knowing that they have a proven system where a lot of the fear occurs.
00:32:49.930 --> 00:32:52.349
But I can't say just trust me, this is a proven system.
00:32:52.509 --> 00:32:57.505
I have to work through, here's what you might want to consider saying it this way or doing it that way.
00:32:57.654 --> 00:32:59.424
They say, oh yeah, I can see myself.
00:32:59.424 --> 00:33:04.865
And then maybe we rehearse it, we do a role play, get the words out, write it out, whatever we need to do.
00:33:05.134 --> 00:33:06.505
Then they execute it.
00:33:06.734 --> 00:33:12.424
Like let's say they ask for an introduction from a client and they're terrified of this, and the client says, yeah, I would do anything for you.
00:33:12.424 --> 00:33:13.865
You're the best lawyer I've ever had.
00:33:14.005 --> 00:33:14.664
Who do you wanna meet?
00:33:14.684 --> 00:33:15.664
And you name it, I'll do it.
00:33:15.884 --> 00:33:17.144
And they're like, did that just happen?
00:33:17.875 --> 00:33:26.845
Like I could have been doing this for 10 years, and I've been silent this whole time when I could have been bringing in all this business by asking a simple question like, you're the greatest client I've ever worked with.
00:33:27.105 --> 00:33:28.125
You're ideal for me.
00:33:28.184 --> 00:33:31.644
Who else do you know that's like you that I could work with and getting that out?
00:33:31.644 --> 00:33:40.829
And now they're getting all this business brought in because they're seen as a top player and they can be introduced as a top player by people who really appreciate their skills.
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:44.470
That's just one example, but that really illustrates how fear.
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.589
And there's an acronym kind of made up called False Evidence Appearing Real.
00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:48.950
That's what most fear is.
00:33:48.950 --> 00:33:50.230
I know that's made up, but it's okay.
00:33:50.230 --> 00:33:50.829
It still works.
00:33:50.930 --> 00:33:51.750
It still makes sense.
00:33:52.269 --> 00:33:53.269
I think I agree with you.
00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:56.549
Most people's fear is the fear of the unknown.
00:33:56.809 --> 00:34:02.444
And once they know, once they have a way to go from A to B to C to D.
00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:06.005
A lot of times you can resolve it, especially if they're willing to take action.
00:34:06.154 --> 00:34:09.085
Okay, so before we wrap up, what's next for you?
00:34:09.434 --> 00:34:11.125
What are your big plans on the horizon?
00:34:11.425 --> 00:34:24.670
The next plan is to continue to build the brand, continue to put out amazing content, continue to lean into AI to help produce, I think I'm gonna do an audio book through AI so that it's my voice.
00:34:24.690 --> 00:34:26.349
But I don't have to sit and read every word.
00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:29.480
And to create an audio book for my new book, Be That Lawyer.
00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:31.110
I'm always looking for self-improvement.
00:34:31.250 --> 00:34:37.269
I'm always looking to figure out better mousetraps in ways of accomplishing things for me and for my clients.
00:34:37.630 --> 00:34:51.030
I think it's just a never ending effort to learn and get an education and business and in life and continue to live a great life and emulate what I'm trying to show attorneys can happen when you work hard and you build a brand and you help a lot of other people accomplish their dreams.
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:51.920
I love it.
00:34:51.949 --> 00:34:52.760
Very inspirational.
00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:55.519
Alright, Steve, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:56.440
I really appreciate it.
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:57.889
This was a great conversation.
00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:58.349
Thank you.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.889
Guys, welcome to the Law Firm Accelerator.
00:00:02.092 --> 00:00:04.232
Today with us, we have Steve Fretzin.
00:00:04.251 --> 00:00:05.402
Steve, welcome to the show.
00:00:05.402 --> 00:00:06.442
It's so nice to have you here.
00:00:06.442 --> 00:00:07.282
Thanks for having me.
00:00:07.282 --> 00:00:07.602
Awesome.
00:00:07.652 --> 00:00:08.961
Would you like to introduce yourself?
00:00:09.231 --> 00:00:09.522
Sure.
00:00:09.541 --> 00:00:10.481
I'm Steve Freson.
00:00:10.522 --> 00:00:13.922
I am a internationally known business development coach for lawyers.
00:00:14.231 --> 00:00:16.882
I've been doing this exclusively for about 17 years.
00:00:17.321 --> 00:00:25.641
I work with them really on business development, personal branding, anything that's gonna help them grow their book of business and have long-term sustainable law practices.
00:00:25.641 --> 00:00:26.321
They can be proud of.
00:00:27.032 --> 00:00:31.582
Enjoy the better things in life, like family and travel and all the stuff that's non-billable.
00:00:31.652 --> 00:00:34.921
It's been my absolute pleasure to be a part of this amazing industry.
00:00:35.381 --> 00:00:41.722
As a non-lawyer, by the way, I got pulled into it years ago, but I just find them with the nicest, most wonderful people every day.
00:00:41.722 --> 00:00:44.642
So I'm very fortunate, Viktoria, that I have this particular niche.
00:00:45.002 --> 00:00:48.451
Well, I love that it sounds like you help people find happiness.
00:00:48.572 --> 00:00:48.811
I do.
00:00:48.851 --> 00:00:55.932
I mean, it's nice when someone is being bombarded with billable hours from their partners, manager and clients with all these demands, and then they.
00:00:56.417 --> 00:01:06.527
Start building their own client base, that they can take control of their career and they decide their hours and they can focus on rainmaking as opposed to building two, 3000 hours a year.
00:01:06.746 --> 00:01:09.167
And they can really live the life they wanna live.
00:01:09.186 --> 00:01:10.606
And I'm not gonna say I'm a huge part of that.
00:01:10.606 --> 00:01:20.766
I like to think I'm a part of it, but I give them a lot of credit because ultimately I'm the coach, they're the player, they play the game and play hard, and then they end up winning in the end, which is to me very satisfying.
00:01:20.906 --> 00:01:22.887
So we can call you the rain main maker.
00:01:23.471 --> 00:01:26.402
I've been called the lawyer whisper, but I've never been called the rain rainmaker.
00:01:26.882 --> 00:01:27.242
I like it.
00:01:27.512 --> 00:01:32.641
Okay, so Steve, 1996, something big happened in your life.
00:01:32.742 --> 00:01:34.121
Can you tell me a little bit about this?
00:01:34.352 --> 00:01:34.641
Yeah.
00:01:34.671 --> 00:01:43.682
I'll tell you, I went to Canada with my son and we were on a eight passenger plane flying through the woods to land on a gravel runway in northern Manitoba.
00:01:43.742 --> 00:01:45.001
It did bring back some memories.
00:01:45.121 --> 00:01:49.882
I was in a small plane heading back from Eagle River, Wisconsin to the Chicagoland area.
00:01:50.182 --> 00:01:56.272
The plane had some issues and you hear that sputtering noise that you never want to hear, especially when you're in the plane.
00:01:56.751 --> 00:02:02.272
Ultimately, we ended up crash landing upside down into a house in the north suburban area of Chicagoland.
00:02:02.272 --> 00:02:09.551
Without getting into all the details, I was a human pretzel for a while and I found myself ripped apart along with the plane and all the members in it.
00:02:09.551 --> 00:02:15.072
Turns out we didn't blow up and we didn't kill everybody in the house that we hit because apparently we had run outta gas.
00:02:15.747 --> 00:02:19.167
The first thing any pilot learns is never, ever run outta gas.
00:02:19.306 --> 00:02:21.887
The pilot to this day would probably say that we didn't run outta gas.
00:02:21.907 --> 00:02:28.956
It was a plane issue, but all of the investigations that happened for years after said yes, in fact, there was no gas left in the plane.
00:02:29.067 --> 00:02:32.447
So it was a recovery in many ways, physically, emotionally, and mentally.
00:02:32.667 --> 00:02:42.407
But the one takeaway I can give people who can't believe that this experience happened to me and that I can't believe that I'm walking the earth anyway'cause it's a miracle no matter what situation you're in life.
00:02:42.896 --> 00:02:46.197
You have one shot at making this your life and making this a better place.
00:02:46.426 --> 00:02:58.917
I've dedicated my life and my time to take care of my family, my health, my friends, my clients, my business, and I'm trying to enjoy every moment I can as well as having an impact so that when I leave, hopefully at a very old age.
00:02:59.197 --> 00:03:07.637
I can look back at a well established career leaving the legal industry far better than I found it in the niche that I've chosen, which is helping lawyers grow their law practices.
00:03:07.637 --> 00:03:11.877
Pretty harrowing situation, but you come out the other side on something like that, you gotta make a count.
00:03:12.176 --> 00:03:12.396
Wow.
00:03:12.417 --> 00:03:14.637
That's quite a career turning point.
00:03:15.016 --> 00:03:19.997
You might be the first person to ever spoken that had a literal plane crash as their turning point.
00:03:20.276 --> 00:03:22.717
Well, there's a reason for that because most people die.
00:03:23.296 --> 00:03:29.757
So when you're in a small plane and you hit the ground at 80 miles an hour into hard surfaces, you're not gonna typically walk away.
00:03:29.977 --> 00:03:30.836
And I didn't walk away.
00:03:30.836 --> 00:03:32.676
They dragged me away kicking and screaming.
00:03:32.736 --> 00:03:37.796
We come out the other side on these things sometimes, and if we can, then we have some perspective that maybe other people don't have.
00:03:38.037 --> 00:03:44.852
Very interesting, okay, so you've said that franchising was your greatest education.
00:03:45.312 --> 00:03:46.491
Can you talk to me about that?
00:03:46.722 --> 00:03:47.012
Yeah.
00:03:47.151 --> 00:03:58.961
As a non-lawyer who came up in sales from 16 years old, selling shoes at Kinney's, by the way, if you're over 40, you know the Great American Shoe Store, Kinney's, and working my way up the food chain of sales jobs.
00:03:59.192 --> 00:04:03.722
Selling, advertising, and selling high tech and eventually ending up in franchising.
00:04:03.782 --> 00:04:13.002
The big aha for me was there's something about selling a business and all of the different parts and pieces that go into selling a high ticket item, but here's the more interesting part.
00:04:13.717 --> 00:04:23.516
I had to work with the franchisees on the backend, helping them not only get into business, but then advertise, market, business develop and build a business, build a company.
00:04:23.716 --> 00:04:24.797
I was their support network.
00:04:25.076 --> 00:04:32.317
I had to sit down and review their profit and loss to help them hire, help them fire, help them put ads in the Yellow Pages back when they were Yellow Pages and all this stuff.
00:04:32.427 --> 00:04:40.557
What happened was I transitioned from being a straight up sales guy to being more of a business guy, and I started to really understand the inner workings of business.
00:04:41.117 --> 00:04:59.466
Which set me up beautifully, not only to start my own business, but to help lawyers who not only need assistance with business development, but I also have the background of helping them understand the operations, this tech stack, the things, and I don't do that stuff, but I know enough to help them figure out, Hey, you're gonna need some new software.
00:04:59.466 --> 00:05:00.786
You're gonna need a new employee.
00:05:00.786 --> 00:05:01.747
You're gonna need to delegate.
00:05:02.201 --> 00:05:03.942
And get the business running well.
00:05:04.242 --> 00:05:09.901
So the big aha for me was the understanding of how to be a business person versus just a salesperson.
00:05:10.382 --> 00:05:10.622
Interesting.
00:05:10.651 --> 00:05:10.942
Okay.
00:05:10.961 --> 00:05:12.822
It sounds like you took some lessons from it.
00:05:13.002 --> 00:05:15.781
So here's a question you were maybe not expecting.
00:05:16.322 --> 00:05:19.822
What's the number one thing you should do to become a rainmaker yourself?
00:05:20.081 --> 00:05:23.062
If you wanna become great at something like rainmaking.
00:05:23.737 --> 00:05:31.346
It's not that different than if you want to become a fantastic chef or a great guitar player, or excel at a particular sport, right?
00:05:31.367 --> 00:05:33.987
You have to become a student of the game.
00:05:34.447 --> 00:05:39.826
You have to immerse yourself in the content that's available, the coaching and mentorship that's available.
00:05:40.406 --> 00:05:52.637
You need to become interested in learning, getting an education and understanding that out of a lot of things you could do as a lawyer, nothing will impact your life more than building business.
00:05:52.826 --> 00:05:55.476
Because if you don't have clients, you don't have business.
00:05:55.536 --> 00:05:59.076
If you have lots of clients, you can learn the business side of how to delegate.
00:05:59.557 --> 00:06:09.182
I know so many lawyers now that have built these systems, advertising, marketing, and business development to the degree where they can go take as many trips a year as they want or do whatever lifestyle they want.
00:06:09.182 --> 00:06:11.302
The thing is running like a fine tuned machine.
00:06:11.492 --> 00:06:14.661
That didn't happen without becoming a student of the game.
00:06:14.721 --> 00:06:24.262
So I would say whether I've got five books, I've got a podcast and there's a lot of other people in legal and outta legal that would be very supportive and helpful to a lawyer who says.
00:06:25.026 --> 00:06:32.266
I want to become a great rainmaker and I need to learn what that's all about because rainmakers are made, they are not born that way.
00:06:32.666 --> 00:06:32.906
Interesting.
00:06:32.927 --> 00:06:34.107
I'm not sure if I agree with you there.
00:06:34.487 --> 00:06:35.507
We can debate about this.
00:06:35.576 --> 00:06:35.867
Okay.
00:06:35.887 --> 00:06:42.507
So I think everybody has a specific strength and if you truly want to make a lot of money, you have to find your strength and you lean into it.
00:06:42.906 --> 00:06:45.776
There are some people who are fantastic at systems.
00:06:45.956 --> 00:06:46.617
I'm one of those people.
00:06:46.666 --> 00:06:48.896
There are other people who are fantastic at sales.
00:06:49.026 --> 00:07:02.536
There are other people who are fantastic at management and whatever it is that you are born to do, if you could do that and outsource the rest, hire people to do the rest, that's when you make the most money, well be the most happy.
00:07:02.937 --> 00:07:07.656
I think learning is certainly a part of it, but you have to lean into your natural gifts, right?
00:07:07.956 --> 00:07:08.857
So yes and no.
00:07:09.036 --> 00:07:10.336
Here's my point, counterpoint.
00:07:10.536 --> 00:07:13.396
I know this because I I work with very introverted attorneys.
00:07:13.437 --> 00:07:15.117
I work with very extroverted attorneys.
00:07:15.156 --> 00:07:18.596
I work with attorneys that can make friends with the devil and get away with it.
00:07:18.596 --> 00:07:20.396
And there's people who can barely make eye contact.
00:07:20.656 --> 00:07:21.637
And here's what I've found.
00:07:21.637 --> 00:07:31.757
Yes, there are people who have very strong relationship skills and personalities that make them likable and make them trustworthy, where rainmaking is gonna come more naturally to them.
00:07:32.297 --> 00:07:36.576
They're gonna have an easier path and ride to get to the rainmaking peak.
00:07:36.576 --> 00:07:39.641
Other people may have to work a little more to get to that point.
00:07:39.742 --> 00:07:46.122
But because I teach business development, relationships, time management, I teach process as a part of my business.
00:07:46.401 --> 00:07:55.357
I get to see firsthand the introvert who hates networking, and the person whose personality, I mean, if somebody's a terrible personality and no one's gonna like them.
00:07:55.576 --> 00:07:57.076
No, they're not gonna be a great rainmaker.
00:07:57.127 --> 00:07:59.976
They would have to change everything about themselves to do it.
00:08:00.237 --> 00:08:15.016
But if I find someone who is likable is very good practitioner at law, and we can provide that person plans and processes and systems and get them comfortable with following a routine of what will make them successful as a rainmaker in business development.
00:08:15.117 --> 00:08:20.137
That's a much easier path than them figuring it out and going against the grain for a number of years.
00:08:20.197 --> 00:08:28.091
So I think you're right to some degree that there are people supposed to being a rainmaker, but that's like an eighties, nineties thing.
00:08:28.112 --> 00:08:30.732
The golfing and glad handing at the golf club.
00:08:31.172 --> 00:08:39.211
A lot of people can make things happen through systems and through social media, through building a brand that wasn't necessarily available 20 and 30 years ago.
00:08:39.591 --> 00:08:45.131
It sounds like you've almost developed like a franchise solution to a small law office where.
00:08:45.831 --> 00:08:51.772
You give them the entire system that they can implement to have that rainmaking potential.
00:08:52.162 --> 00:08:53.731
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing.
00:08:53.961 --> 00:09:00.892
It's all proven systems that when I have a class of 12 or 15 lawyers that meet every week for a training class.
00:09:01.111 --> 00:09:10.662
The goal is that not only we teach them planning and execution and all the different elements of business development and marketing, but that eventually they all start talking the same language.
00:09:10.662 --> 00:09:14.302
They're all doing the same things the same way, in their own special way.
00:09:14.302 --> 00:09:15.782
They're all out networking.
00:09:15.782 --> 00:09:20.501
They're all out leveraging clients for quality introductions for new business.
00:09:20.611 --> 00:09:22.062
They're cross marketing.
00:09:22.422 --> 00:09:27.626
They're doing all the things that they had never done before in a very advanced and polished way.
00:09:28.006 --> 00:09:34.586
The goal is that they're internalizing how to do business development as a learned skill so that they never need me again.
00:09:34.586 --> 00:09:42.052
They could just go off and continue this progress year after year, getting better results because they now own these skills that they never learned before.
00:09:42.226 --> 00:09:42.667
I love it.
00:09:42.856 --> 00:09:43.947
What a cool thing you've done.
00:09:44.287 --> 00:09:48.226
So you worked across 50 industries, focusing on lawyers.
00:09:48.687 --> 00:09:50.907
Why did you decide lawyers specifically?
00:09:51.206 --> 00:09:53.586
So, yeah, to your point, I worked with a Caribbean medical school.
00:09:53.706 --> 00:09:54.667
I worked with a carpet cleaner.
00:09:54.866 --> 00:09:56.346
I worked with Chicago Tribune.
00:09:56.537 --> 00:10:00.826
I've worked all over the place and in 2008 and 9, when the recession hit.
00:10:01.356 --> 00:10:04.677
I had never worked with an attorney and someone said, Hey, would you work with an attorney?
00:10:04.746 --> 00:10:06.277
They just lost their GC job.
00:10:06.277 --> 00:10:07.317
They need to go out on their own.
00:10:07.346 --> 00:10:14.116
Then another attorney, then another, then a law firm, and within 16 months to two years, it became about 85% of my business.
00:10:14.267 --> 00:10:16.437
I'll tell you the two reasons why that happened.
00:10:16.456 --> 00:10:20.802
Number one, lawyers don't learn anything about business development in law school.
00:10:20.822 --> 00:10:28.481
So it's like a gap that's keeping them from being successful and making it very difficult for them to grow in a sustainable way.
00:10:28.682 --> 00:10:31.162
'Cause they're just winging it, trying to hope that things work out.
00:10:31.412 --> 00:10:34.402
There was a need in the industry that wasn't being filled at the time.
00:10:34.782 --> 00:10:39.802
Now there's tons of coaches and I'm happy that exists and maybe I've been around a little block a little longer than others.
00:10:39.902 --> 00:10:42.522
But the other piece of it is that I came with a system.
00:10:43.086 --> 00:10:45.856
That helps people to learn business development and be rainmakers.
00:10:46.086 --> 00:10:47.736
It's called Sales-Free Selling.
00:10:48.047 --> 00:11:01.817
It's the title of my first book and it's the system that I created in studying with other coaches and reading and really putting together a model that I knew would work for everybody, but in particular, works really well for lawyers because lawyers hate sales.
00:11:02.417 --> 00:11:03.417
They hate being sold to.
00:11:03.716 --> 00:11:08.297
Nobody ever became a lawyer to say, Hey, I can't wait to get out and start selling my services.
00:11:08.517 --> 00:11:11.096
But if there was a system that was sales free.
00:11:11.761 --> 00:11:17.412
That allowed them to develop a book of business and develop their brand without selling, convincing, pitching.
00:11:17.881 --> 00:11:20.251
Well, that's a very attractive opportunity.
00:11:20.471 --> 00:11:26.221
The need existed, the system existed that made it comfortable for them, and it was like Reese's Peanut butter Cups.
00:11:26.221 --> 00:11:30.067
Chocolate and peanut butter put together, it's been a match made in heaven ever since.
00:11:30.287 --> 00:11:33.706
So you found the place where you felt you could do the most impact quickest.
00:11:33.817 --> 00:11:35.667
It's exactly why I worked with lawyers as well.
00:11:35.976 --> 00:11:36.267
Yeah.
00:11:36.267 --> 00:11:42.067
Sometimes when you find something special and you find a connection, it's exciting because you may never have been something you realize.
00:11:42.126 --> 00:11:46.106
But once you recognize that you're meant to be there, then all the walls come down.
00:11:46.527 --> 00:11:48.267
You can just lean into it and enjoy it.
00:11:48.576 --> 00:11:49.547
That makes perfect sense.
00:11:49.846 --> 00:11:52.106
So talk to me about Sales-Free Selling.
00:11:52.376 --> 00:11:53.466
What exactly does that mean?
00:11:54.277 --> 00:12:02.366
What it means is that there is a disconnect that came upon us in the last, let's say 25 years.
00:12:02.626 --> 00:12:09.767
Before the advent of the internet, people were selling services, people were buying services, but it was a very competitive environment.
00:12:09.826 --> 00:12:15.486
If you think about buying a car, you think about what it would mean to meet with a new financial planner or insurance person.
00:12:16.116 --> 00:12:20.241
They're just trying to sell you and you're trying to protect yourself so you don't get screwed.
00:12:20.471 --> 00:12:23.121
That defines the last hundred years of sales.
00:12:23.422 --> 00:12:28.881
And in the last 25 years with the advent of the internet, there's so much information, there's so much competition.
00:12:29.091 --> 00:12:29.761
Think about this.
00:12:29.761 --> 00:12:33.721
You go to a restaurant, you research the restaurant, you can look at the five star reviews.
00:12:33.822 --> 00:12:35.522
You can hear what people say.
00:12:35.822 --> 00:12:37.162
You can look at pictures and images.
00:12:37.162 --> 00:12:43.456
There's just so much more now than there used to be, but people are still selling the same way where it's me against you.
00:12:43.716 --> 00:12:45.576
And that's not fun for anybody.
00:12:45.897 --> 00:12:49.336
I don't think anybody likes selling and I don't think anybody likes being sold to.
00:12:49.756 --> 00:12:55.537
So Sales-Free Selling was based on the idea that as the lawyer or as the coach or whatever it is that we're doing.
00:12:56.096 --> 00:12:57.326
We're not gonna sell a service.
00:12:57.397 --> 00:12:59.927
What we're gonna do is help someone buy a service.
00:13:00.506 --> 00:13:12.126
So the idea that I'm gonna meet with a lawyer and walk them through a buying decision to identify if I'm the right coach, if what they need is what I solve, and do we feel that there's a fit to work together.
00:13:12.307 --> 00:13:15.246
If so, let's move that forward together.
00:13:15.746 --> 00:13:19.366
And if it's not a fit, let's exit and stay friends.
00:13:19.856 --> 00:13:21.687
Let's not invest more time with each other.
00:13:22.532 --> 00:13:25.581
It's about moving someone forward or moving someone out.
00:13:25.761 --> 00:13:32.142
If we can quickly identify who's qualified to move forward and who's disqualified to move out, we're not wasting their time or ours.
00:13:32.192 --> 00:13:38.621
We're understanding if the fit is perfect, we can cooperate and collaborate in a way that means, Hey, this is a win-win.
00:13:38.792 --> 00:13:40.861
Let's continue to work together.
00:13:41.282 --> 00:13:43.701
And so lawyers can really appreciate that.
00:13:43.892 --> 00:13:45.302
It's not about pitching the firm.
00:13:45.652 --> 00:13:50.422
It's more about, let me ask you questions, let me understand what your legal needs are.
00:13:50.522 --> 00:13:54.471
How deep that rabbit hole goes and am I the best person for you?
00:13:54.932 --> 00:13:58.432
And do you believe that as much as I believe that, and if so, let's keep moving forward.
00:13:58.572 --> 00:14:01.351
If not, I'll refer you to someone that might be a better fit.
00:14:01.351 --> 00:14:09.231
And I do that, by the way, for me, as a lawyer coach all the time, I'm referring people away because they want something different than what I provide.
00:14:09.231 --> 00:14:09.991
They want a website.
00:14:09.991 --> 00:14:10.871
Well, I don't do websites.
00:14:10.902 --> 00:14:12.672
They need scaling and operational help.
00:14:12.672 --> 00:14:13.672
Well, I know people for that.
00:14:13.672 --> 00:14:14.511
That's not what I do.
00:14:14.731 --> 00:14:15.912
I'm dangerous in all those areas.
00:14:16.032 --> 00:14:16.631
I know a lot about it.
00:14:17.131 --> 00:14:18.711
But that's not anything I deliver.
00:14:19.172 --> 00:14:22.351
So I'm gonna push them in a direction and say, let's stay friends.
00:14:22.532 --> 00:14:25.272
I'm gonna help you out and I'm gonna actually try to get you to the right person.
00:14:25.782 --> 00:14:29.272
Everybody feels good when there's a win-win and when there's a fit.
00:14:29.412 --> 00:14:39.331
And that's what I'm trying to help lawyers understand what Sales-Free Selling, that this model will save them time, make them money, help them find the right clients, and everybody can win in that scenario.
00:14:39.481 --> 00:14:42.572
Yeah, that's much softer approach than the traditional marketing.
00:14:42.721 --> 00:14:54.812
What do you do with lawyers who have an onboarding specialist or instead of doing a lawyer consultation, they actually have a system where they have a person in their firm whose job is to sign up as many people as possible.
00:14:54.841 --> 00:14:55.692
What would you say to them?
00:14:55.892 --> 00:14:56.091
I think.
00:14:56.647 --> 00:15:05.626
If I'm really working with the lawyers who are bringing in the business, and then if they have someone answering the phone and doing intake, I would wanna know what their intake process is.
00:15:05.787 --> 00:15:10.106
I would wanna make sure that they have a sales free methodology for how they're doing intake.
00:15:10.246 --> 00:15:27.471
So that they're responsive, client-centric and continually moving people forward to address that fit and make sure they're signing up everybody that should be signing up and not losing opportunities because they have a weak performer or lack of a system for finishing the story.
00:15:28.206 --> 00:15:35.386
We spent all this time, money, and energy to drive this traffic into the firm, and now we've got someone who's bungling it at the end, not on my watch.
00:15:35.496 --> 00:15:41.307
Yeah, it's not necessarily that you are anti sales, you just wanna have a very clean process to follow.
00:15:41.576 --> 00:15:44.147
That is sort of consultative selling approach.
00:15:44.496 --> 00:15:45.586
It's not anti sales.
00:15:45.826 --> 00:15:47.746
I mean, I think lawyers are anti sales.
00:15:47.976 --> 00:15:53.677
It's really about can we agree on a process where everybody feels listened to, understood.
00:15:54.157 --> 00:15:58.542
And that the belief that the solutions we provide are the right solutions.
00:15:58.642 --> 00:16:09.341
And the prospective client believes that we have the right solutions so that everybody's moving forward, feeling good, because then when we implement the client, we all have a good feeling there wasn't any sales that led to some distrust.
00:16:09.481 --> 00:16:24.576
We can keep building on that client trust and help them with their matter and develop a client relationship and loyalty that can go for years that provides opportunities for cross marketing, for referrals to really be a bigger part of that individual's life.
00:16:24.886 --> 00:16:26.057
More than just being a lawyer.
00:16:26.177 --> 00:16:33.136
I try to help lawyers become counselors where they're really like a business advisor for their clients, not just handling matters.
00:16:33.397 --> 00:16:37.096
And that's a flip of a switch that we work on a pretty regular basis as well.
00:16:37.456 --> 00:16:37.616
Interesting.
00:16:37.736 --> 00:16:38.096
I like it.
00:16:38.317 --> 00:16:43.697
One of my favorite questions to ask on my podcast is talk to me about your worst marketing mistake.
00:16:44.501 --> 00:16:55.121
Now, I know you've spoken very openly about your own mistakes, and you've actually said that at one point you ran four companies at once, and I believe you said that was a mistake.
00:16:55.231 --> 00:16:55.961
Talk to me about this.
00:16:56.072 --> 00:16:58.402
That wasn't a marketing mistake that was a business mistake.
00:16:58.501 --> 00:17:01.562
But I don't believe that we can improve as humans.
00:17:01.902 --> 00:17:05.761
We can improve as business professionals without making some mistakes.
00:17:06.021 --> 00:17:11.616
And the idea that if I just stayed with my core business of business development, coaching, and training.
00:17:11.826 --> 00:17:13.696
Would I be further along than I am now?
00:17:13.926 --> 00:17:14.616
It's possible.
00:17:14.876 --> 00:17:16.856
But I set up a recruiting business.
00:17:16.977 --> 00:17:18.777
I set up an executive coaching business.
00:17:18.896 --> 00:17:20.576
I had a networking website.
00:17:20.817 --> 00:17:25.096
I kept finding businesses that were necessary and needed in my space.
00:17:25.317 --> 00:17:31.136
But when I started working with lawyers and realizing that's really the area that I want to focus on and that I was really.
00:17:32.027 --> 00:17:38.626
Enjoying the coaching and training and just getting distracted by all the other things I was dealing with, and not to mention huge overhead.
00:17:38.866 --> 00:17:40.106
I needed to refocus.
00:17:40.386 --> 00:17:46.646
I sat down with a coach who looked at everything I was doing and got me to admit that I'm not focused here.
00:17:46.817 --> 00:17:52.707
That I'm everywhere doing everything, and I'm not enjoying myself and not helping as many people as I could be helping.
00:17:52.926 --> 00:17:54.586
So that's a business mistake.
00:17:54.787 --> 00:18:04.826
A marketing mistake I made was I set up video-based coaching and training, so a lot of people have video-based training programs so that you can get a subscription, but I did it too soon.
00:18:05.027 --> 00:18:12.136
I think if I was to do that now or in the future, I'd probably have the marketing engine to help run it, but I didn't have a strong enough brand to support it.
00:18:12.156 --> 00:18:19.696
So I invested a lot of time, money, and energy in a platform of doing video-based coaching and training for people, and it was a big flop.
00:18:20.017 --> 00:18:22.057
I ended up losing a year of my life doing that.
00:18:22.237 --> 00:18:26.017
If I had to do it over, I learned from those mistakes and do it right the second time.
00:18:26.156 --> 00:18:28.376
But I also know that's not necessarily my jam either.
00:18:28.616 --> 00:18:32.561
I think these are all things that help us become better and stronger professionals.
00:18:32.961 --> 00:18:33.162
Interesting.
00:18:33.162 --> 00:18:35.041
When did you set up this video platform?
00:18:35.321 --> 00:18:37.961
I would say it was probably around eight years ago.
00:18:38.162 --> 00:18:53.082
I thought I was ahead of things, but maybe I was too far ahead of things because lawyers really are scared by the concept of business development, and there's only probably 5% of the legal population that's openly interested in looking for content in that area.
00:18:53.541 --> 00:18:57.801
And the idea of watching videos or hiring a coach or engaging someone to help them.
00:18:58.356 --> 00:19:00.777
That's a very small percentage of the legal population.
00:19:00.916 --> 00:19:06.457
I'm working within a niche to help the most motivated, ambitious attorneys, but it's not into the thousands.
00:19:06.457 --> 00:19:12.136
It's into the hundreds or into the dozens that are actually gonna reach out and take action and something like that.
00:19:12.277 --> 00:19:13.616
But it was a good experience just doing it.
00:19:13.896 --> 00:19:19.896
I was gonna say that a lot of times with new tech as marketers, as business people, we want to jump on the new tech.
00:19:20.402 --> 00:19:28.231
What I found is that you're better off letting a big company use it first so they can prove the concept before you jump in and start investing your own.
00:19:28.582 --> 00:19:32.352
Once a bunch of people are doing it, then you can go in and be like, okay, how can I make this even better?
00:19:32.461 --> 00:19:32.951
Fair enough.
00:19:33.021 --> 00:19:37.152
Okay, so you said you limit your practice to just 20 clients.
00:19:37.571 --> 00:19:38.511
That's a tight number.
00:19:38.511 --> 00:19:41.692
That's smaller than the amount of clients I have.
00:19:41.692 --> 00:19:42.932
Why do you do this?
00:19:43.086 --> 00:19:44.227
And how does it work?
00:19:44.727 --> 00:19:48.027
So when we talk about 20 clients, that's a ballpark.
00:19:48.027 --> 00:19:52.707
Those are my coaching and training clients, and I spend a significant amount of time with them.
00:19:53.047 --> 00:20:02.346
And if I was doing 30, 40, 50 and I had to cut back on the amount of time that I spent with them, it would've impact my ability to help them in a dramatic and significant way.
00:20:02.666 --> 00:20:11.946
I set up my fee structure and the classes I teach and how I bring people in to hit that mark of 20 to keep the quality as high as possible.
00:20:12.557 --> 00:20:13.737
And my time is at a premium?
00:20:14.237 --> 00:20:15.096
And so that's that.
00:20:15.317 --> 00:20:28.186
Now, I also run these rainmaker round tables, and those are groups that meet monthly, and I've got about 40 clients in there, so it's really 60 clients, but 20 that I have to really invest a significant amount of time in every day and every week.
00:20:28.477 --> 00:20:32.721
And then 40 that are more group centric than individual centric.
00:20:32.791 --> 00:20:37.922
It's easier for me to coordinate and I could grow that to 60, 70, 80, a hundred people over the next five years.
00:20:38.182 --> 00:20:43.241
And because they're getting great value from being a part of those groups, they do have me on retainer.
00:20:43.771 --> 00:20:46.951
But it's not like they're meeting with me for an hour a month every month.
00:20:47.211 --> 00:20:50.592
So that's why 2020 is the magic number for coaching and training.
00:20:50.701 --> 00:20:54.592
Yeah, I guess a coaching business is a little harder to scale than a digital agency.
00:20:54.612 --> 00:20:56.392
You can't exactly clone yourself.
00:20:56.701 --> 00:21:00.951
I've brought in people in the past to clone myself, and here's something I realized.
00:21:01.231 --> 00:21:02.711
I really don't enjoy managing people.
00:21:03.031 --> 00:21:07.376
I have one assistant, it's a VA, and I don't really enjoy managing him quite frankly.
00:21:07.446 --> 00:21:16.176
There's things that need to get done, and I'm a big delegator, so I have to do it, but to have a coach work under me or two or three or four, I've tried that before and it wasn't fun or interesting.
00:21:16.297 --> 00:21:21.737
I think maybe my expectations of what I do and what I expect other people to do similar to me are too high.
00:21:21.876 --> 00:21:25.537
If they're not as motivated as me and they're not following the systems that I'm teaching.
00:21:26.366 --> 00:21:33.366
I would teach someone sales free selling so that they could be a coach under me, and then they weren't using sales free selling to go out and meet with clients.
00:21:33.426 --> 00:21:34.326
That's hypocritical.
00:21:34.446 --> 00:21:39.126
I just have found that I'd rather build a business that's high profit, low overhead.
00:21:39.247 --> 00:21:41.606
Provides me the ability to work four days a week, not five.
00:21:42.267 --> 00:21:50.557
Take vacations, make great money, help a lot of people, but I'm helping the most interested, coachable people, not everybody.
00:21:50.777 --> 00:21:54.557
And that makes my life better because I'm working with really wonderful people.
00:21:54.666 --> 00:22:00.477
Back in the day when I used to work with law firms, they would give me 10 or 15 people to work with, and most of them were problem children.
00:22:01.172 --> 00:22:04.622
Most of them had a lack of interest in anything I had to say.
00:22:04.852 --> 00:22:08.622
They couldn't wait to get away from me to go back to their desk and get back to the billable hour.
00:22:08.731 --> 00:22:11.102
That wasn't fun or interesting to me at all.
00:22:11.372 --> 00:22:15.781
That was nothing but a nuisance to me because I'm working with people who aren't enjoyable to work with.
00:22:16.001 --> 00:22:22.432
So I've created a business and a system where I only work with people who are as motivated as me to grow business.
00:22:22.491 --> 00:22:28.791
And then we partner together and have the most incredible time together because I know that they're highly qualified to be in the room with me.
00:22:28.971 --> 00:22:35.832
So I think you touched upon something very important here, and this is a conversation I have with people every time I interview them.
00:22:35.842 --> 00:22:41.951
Being successful in business is not necessarily about making the most amount of money per year for some people.
00:22:42.481 --> 00:22:51.251
That may be what leads to their happiness, but I think for most of us, it's the balance of doing the things we love, making a great living and having the kind of freedom you want.
00:22:51.311 --> 00:22:52.932
You mentioned working four days a week.
00:22:53.011 --> 00:22:55.471
I prefer to work seven days a week, but only a few hours a day.
00:22:55.491 --> 00:23:00.251
I think when we build businesses, and I'm sure when you're coaching people to build businesses, this is not my first rodeo.
00:23:00.521 --> 00:23:01.852
I've never actually had a job.
00:23:01.922 --> 00:23:03.332
I've always been an employer.
00:23:03.682 --> 00:23:08.291
It's all about creating the lifestyle you want rather than necessarily just the bank account.
00:23:08.291 --> 00:23:14.751
The bank account is a part of the lifestyle, but it is not nearly the whole lifestyle, as you know, and I'm sure as you teach people as well.
00:23:14.781 --> 00:23:15.071
Yeah.
00:23:15.471 --> 00:23:20.192
I live in the North Shore Chicago in a little town called Fort Sheridan.
00:23:20.422 --> 00:23:24.912
It's a military base that was converted over into residential in 2000s.
00:23:24.932 --> 00:23:27.642
I'm in a late 1800s horse stable that was renovated.
00:23:28.201 --> 00:23:30.122
I walk down to Lake Michigan with my wife.
00:23:30.521 --> 00:23:32.761
I walk into our town for drinks and live music.
00:23:33.461 --> 00:23:35.971
We're in our dream house and we own it free and clear.
00:23:36.432 --> 00:23:37.332
My son's college.
00:23:37.471 --> 00:23:38.451
His college is paid for.
00:23:38.451 --> 00:23:40.932
He is not gonna have any debt and we've got retirement.
00:23:40.991 --> 00:23:44.092
My wife's a teacher, so we've got a huge pension coming her way in three years.
00:23:44.231 --> 00:23:47.451
So how much money does it take to make someone happy?
00:23:47.852 --> 00:23:51.291
I thought I wanted stuff like back when I was in my early thirties, I wanted it all.
00:23:51.432 --> 00:23:54.172
And as you get older, you start to realize what really matters.
00:23:54.471 --> 00:24:01.731
And to me, it's health, family, security, knowing that I have enough money to take care of myself and my family for the rest of my life, which we have.
00:24:01.832 --> 00:24:03.852
We can take nice trips and enjoy life.
00:24:04.071 --> 00:24:06.092
It isn't about stuff I want to get rid of stuff.
00:24:06.092 --> 00:24:06.971
That's an interesting thing too.
00:24:06.971 --> 00:24:09.132
When you get certain an age, you're like, how can I get rid of stuff?
00:24:09.442 --> 00:24:11.211
Like I don't like all the stuff I have.
00:24:11.271 --> 00:24:13.771
How can I clear the clutter of all the things we accumulate?
00:24:13.832 --> 00:24:16.701
So I would take happiness over money any day.
00:24:16.771 --> 00:24:17.751
I think most people would.
00:24:18.112 --> 00:24:23.771
But there's a lot of people that have tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars, and they're absolutely miserable with it.
00:24:24.481 --> 00:24:26.942
It can buy you some things, but it certainly can't buy you happiness.
00:24:27.092 --> 00:24:27.622
Very true.
00:24:27.761 --> 00:24:30.902
So I was originally born in Russia and there is a Russian thing.
00:24:31.211 --> 00:24:35.281
It's better to be rich and healthy than it's to be poor and sick.
00:24:35.541 --> 00:24:37.821
I think it's poor and happy than rich and sick.
00:24:38.162 --> 00:24:38.382
No.
00:24:38.741 --> 00:24:39.882
That's the American
00:24:39.882 --> 00:24:40.182
saying.
00:24:40.201 --> 00:24:41.701
Of course it's better to be healthy and rich.
00:24:41.882 --> 00:24:42.662
You wouldn't want that.
00:24:42.971 --> 00:24:44.301
Well, that's the joke.
00:24:44.301 --> 00:24:46.471
It's always better to have everything if you can.
00:24:46.471 --> 00:24:51.201
It's better to be happy and healthy and have lots of money if that's an option.
00:24:51.271 --> 00:24:51.832
I'm with you on that.
00:24:52.251 --> 00:24:52.951
So, okay.
00:24:53.332 --> 00:24:59.432
You have a podcast as well, and on your podcast, BE THAT LAWYER, you interviewed a lot of top rainmakers.
00:24:59.981 --> 00:25:05.112
What is the most counterintuitive thing that's helping them succeed?
00:25:05.332 --> 00:25:11.912
The rainmakers I've interviewed, there were a lot of common themes to what they would say made them successful.
00:25:12.413 --> 00:25:22.073
One of them was a drive and a motivation to build their own client base and to make business development and rainmaking their business, not billable hours.
00:25:22.103 --> 00:25:24.432
They're changing the script of what it means to be a lawyer.
00:25:24.553 --> 00:25:37.432
A lawyer is someone who does the work and grinds it out behind the desk, type it on the computer, and they're saying, Hey, I actually can help a lot more people and make a lot more money and have a better lifestyle if I focus on business development in the rainmaking.
00:25:37.532 --> 00:25:41.153
So that was a common theme of their drive and motivation to that end of it.
00:25:41.867 --> 00:25:48.248
It doesn't mean that, and they have to be a great lawyer to you gotta know what you're doing, but not to focus on the lawyering aspect of it.
00:25:48.248 --> 00:25:49.208
That was one piece of it.
00:25:49.208 --> 00:25:59.768
Another element that came up repeatedly, and this is all in my book, behind me, Be That Lawyer: 101 Top Rainmaker Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice, which is it's important to have great support.
00:26:00.147 --> 00:26:14.327
You cannot become a rainmaker and bring in all this business if you don't have a paralegal, an associate, a team, a staff, a group that you know is gonna help you create great client service and get a great outcome for the matter.
00:26:14.428 --> 00:26:15.607
That's all really critical.
00:26:15.907 --> 00:26:22.288
So ultimately, motivation and drive to do it, having great support and if you don't have great support, you need to get great support.
00:26:22.288 --> 00:26:24.807
Another one is having great systems and processes.
00:26:25.647 --> 00:26:30.978
I've spoken about business development systems and processes, but also do you have the technology?
00:26:31.198 --> 00:26:32.738
Do you have the marketing?
00:26:32.738 --> 00:26:45.163
Do you have the systems in place so that when you bring in business, it becomes almost automated, almost like an assembly line, so that you can run like a John Morgan of Morgan Morgan, the top personal injury group in the country.
00:26:45.432 --> 00:26:46.603
It's the John Morgan way.
00:26:46.673 --> 00:26:57.403
He's got a process that every group, every office that he has, a thousand lawyers, they all are singing the same song, marching to the same step, and they're all following the John Morgan system.
00:26:57.542 --> 00:27:04.923
So I think that's another, I would say the motivation, having great support and great systems work, common themes through the podcast and through the book.
00:27:05.022 --> 00:27:16.522
And that's certainly very logical, but I bet you have something that you found that was counterintuitive, that maybe didn't make sense, but you keep seeing it on people and what is it?
00:27:16.623 --> 00:27:24.762
People who are introverts and they would talk about leveraging their introversion as a strength.
00:27:24.903 --> 00:27:27.442
Asking more questions instead of talking.
00:27:27.752 --> 00:27:34.617
Instead of going to big cocktail parties, focusing on small groups and one-on-one meetings where they can be more successful.
00:27:34.837 --> 00:27:47.478
So it was a situation where it was very helpful to lawyers who listen to my show that are introverts and are terrified of the people in the interaction and could never see themselves on a podcast around a stage doing this kind of thing.
00:27:48.228 --> 00:27:52.597
That a lot of it is in their head, but even if it's real, there are ways around it.
00:27:52.817 --> 00:28:03.518
And so I thought that was kind of content that was coming on the show that was counterintuitive to what people think about introverts and how they can handle business development and be successful in it, even though it doesn't come naturally.
00:28:04.397 --> 00:28:04.837
I love that.
00:28:04.897 --> 00:28:09.373
So I'm currently reading a book by Bill Gates, about his life called Source Code.
00:28:09.563 --> 00:28:12.573
Bill Gates doesn't seem like a particularly extroverted person.
00:28:12.752 --> 00:28:16.692
He seems kind of nerdy and geek, sort of the kind of guy who sits in the corner.
00:28:17.113 --> 00:28:20.972
And so I'm reading this book and it turns out he actually did exactly this.
00:28:22.248 --> 00:28:33.127
He took his introversion and channeled it into this because he's such an intense person like really being good at business and negotiating, and that's actually how he ended up so successful.
00:28:33.478 --> 00:28:36.407
Intensity and that inner focus turned it out.
00:28:36.637 --> 00:28:38.208
It's a very good book for an introvert.
00:28:39.053 --> 00:28:40.673
Who is not sure they can make it in business.
00:28:40.792 --> 00:28:42.472
I mean, he's done pretty well for himself.
00:28:42.692 --> 00:28:47.113
So speaking of books, is there any books that you could think of that you love?
00:28:47.113 --> 00:28:48.673
Any nonfiction books that you love?
00:28:48.813 --> 00:28:53.113
One that I regularly talk about and actually buy many copies of and give to my clients.
00:28:53.282 --> 00:28:57.522
This is the only non Steve Frezen book that I send them, but I do it religiously.
00:28:57.522 --> 00:28:58.883
It's called Getting Things Done.
00:28:59.232 --> 00:29:02.002
It's by David Allen and it's changed my life.
00:29:02.202 --> 00:29:05.803
I tell people on the regular that I'm not built for organization.
00:29:05.982 --> 00:29:11.482
I'm a feather on the wind, which is why I had four businesses at one point and went through all that because I'm just built that way.
00:29:11.982 --> 00:29:13.883
And like you maybe a serial entrepreneur.
00:29:14.222 --> 00:29:18.083
So staying focused and staying organized is not something that comes naturally in me.
00:29:18.083 --> 00:29:18.242
So.
00:29:19.093 --> 00:29:23.012
I needed to read a book and implement a system of how I deal with time.
00:29:23.573 --> 00:29:25.692
I don't do every single thing that he says to do.
00:29:25.893 --> 00:29:30.573
I don't have my email set up the way he says, and I don't go to the grocery store with a specific list.
00:29:30.752 --> 00:29:34.333
I'm gonna go to the grocery store and maybe on the way I need to make a stop somewhere.
00:29:34.333 --> 00:29:36.053
So I'm making one trip, but that's common sense.
00:29:36.192 --> 00:29:42.573
But getting things done really provides a way of clearing the clutter, so I have no paper anywhere near me.
00:29:42.813 --> 00:29:45.093
I put everything on my remarkable two tablet.
00:29:46.067 --> 00:29:49.028
I stopped working Fridays, so I'm working four days a week.
00:29:49.228 --> 00:29:50.708
I delegate everything I can.
00:29:50.958 --> 00:29:55.508
Every little piece of everything I can delegate that isn't worth my time gets delegated out.
00:29:55.728 --> 00:30:03.667
I'm trying to be the poster child for getting things done and also for my clients to say, look, I know you've got 500 emails in your inbox that are on open.
00:30:03.877 --> 00:30:11.907
Let's work out a way to get through that, to clear the clutter, get to that zero inbox, and stay there as well as all the piles you have.
00:30:12.383 --> 00:30:15.643
And I'll help them work through that along with David Allen in that great book.
00:30:15.843 --> 00:30:16.323
I like that.
00:30:16.472 --> 00:30:17.482
I'll have to check it out.
00:30:18.002 --> 00:30:22.002
Speaking of getting lawyers organized, I'm extremely organized because I have to be.
00:30:22.163 --> 00:30:27.083
I have ADD, which means either organize or unsuccessful, and I like being successful.
00:30:27.182 --> 00:30:30.603
How do you get lawyers to get more organized and cooperate?
00:30:31.143 --> 00:30:34.202
That's been a challenge for us, as a marketing agency for lawyers.
00:30:34.643 --> 00:30:39.042
I mean, I'm putting them in a situation where it's impacting and affecting.
00:30:39.692 --> 00:30:42.962
Their ability to be successful at business development and growing.
00:30:43.063 --> 00:30:47.603
If they're disorganized all over the place, then how are they gonna have time to do business development?
00:30:47.603 --> 00:30:49.403
How are they gonna use their time efficiently?
00:30:49.462 --> 00:30:54.242
So I'm putting them in a corner where they have to learn and be more organized.
00:30:54.887 --> 00:30:59.053
Something I do with many of my clients is I have them track their day and send it to me.
00:30:59.153 --> 00:31:05.692
So let's see, what did you do from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM and track it in 15 minute increments, like you would track your billable time.
00:31:06.212 --> 00:31:15.452
I find that they're going on Amazon, or I find that they're doing administrative tasks or low level marketing tasks and things they should be delegating to a paralegal or an associate.
00:31:15.992 --> 00:31:22.035
We start to work out, Hey, you realize three hours of your day was something you shouldn't be doing, and it's disorganized.
00:31:22.134 --> 00:31:23.555
The disorganization isn't helping.
00:31:23.775 --> 00:31:32.474
We need to work through that together and clear that out so that they can get that time reclaimed and focused on working with clients and billable hours.
00:31:32.535 --> 00:31:34.859
In many cases, business development billable hours.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:37.119
Those are kind of two important things to focus on.
00:31:37.269 --> 00:31:43.039
Yeah, definitely tracking time is a good way to get folks to start being a little more cooperative.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.349
Let's circle back to fear.
00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:57.359
Now, your crash experience gave you a very rare perspective when a client or an attorney that you are working with is stuck in fear, especially asking for business closing clients.
00:31:57.779 --> 00:31:59.240
How do you help them break through that?
00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:02.650
Well, I don't say just do it trust me, it'll work or just trust me.
00:32:03.414 --> 00:32:06.434
That's not something that lawyers respond well to.
00:32:06.664 --> 00:32:10.275
What I would rather do is explain to them a way of doing it.
00:32:10.464 --> 00:32:13.755
Deal with their skepticism and their risk aversion and their fear.
00:32:14.144 --> 00:32:18.115
Work out some language for them to get through it so that they can attempt.
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:27.200
For example, asking for an introduction from a client to another client, whatever the fear is that they have, and saying to them, Hey, let's try it one time this way.
00:32:27.470 --> 00:32:28.119
Just try it.
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:29.559
You know, it's like going on a rollercoaster.
00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:31.160
Once you go on one, you can go on all the others.
00:32:31.660 --> 00:32:43.150
And the idea is that on the other side of that fear is proof and evidence that a lot of it was in their head and with a system and language, they can accomplish almost anything that they're concerned and have fear about.
00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:49.789
It's the winging it and not knowing that they have a proven system where a lot of the fear occurs.
00:32:49.930 --> 00:32:52.349
But I can't say just trust me, this is a proven system.
00:32:52.509 --> 00:32:57.505
I have to work through, here's what you might want to consider saying it this way or doing it that way.
00:32:57.654 --> 00:32:59.424
They say, oh yeah, I can see myself.
00:32:59.424 --> 00:33:04.865
And then maybe we rehearse it, we do a role play, get the words out, write it out, whatever we need to do.
00:33:05.134 --> 00:33:06.505
Then they execute it.
00:33:06.734 --> 00:33:12.424
Like let's say they ask for an introduction from a client and they're terrified of this, and the client says, yeah, I would do anything for you.
00:33:12.424 --> 00:33:13.865
You're the best lawyer I've ever had.
00:33:14.005 --> 00:33:14.664
Who do you wanna meet?
00:33:14.684 --> 00:33:15.664
And you name it, I'll do it.
00:33:15.884 --> 00:33:17.144
And they're like, did that just happen?
00:33:17.875 --> 00:33:26.845
Like I could have been doing this for 10 years, and I've been silent this whole time when I could have been bringing in all this business by asking a simple question like, you're the greatest client I've ever worked with.
00:33:27.105 --> 00:33:28.125
You're ideal for me.
00:33:28.184 --> 00:33:31.644
Who else do you know that's like you that I could work with and getting that out?
00:33:31.644 --> 00:33:40.829
And now they're getting all this business brought in because they're seen as a top player and they can be introduced as a top player by people who really appreciate their skills.
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:44.470
That's just one example, but that really illustrates how fear.
00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.589
And there's an acronym kind of made up called False Evidence Appearing Real.
00:33:47.690 --> 00:33:48.950
That's what most fear is.
00:33:48.950 --> 00:33:50.230
I know that's made up, but it's okay.
00:33:50.230 --> 00:33:50.829
It still works.
00:33:50.930 --> 00:33:51.750
It still makes sense.
00:33:52.269 --> 00:33:53.269
I think I agree with you.
00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:56.549
Most people's fear is the fear of the unknown.
00:33:56.809 --> 00:34:02.444
And once they know, once they have a way to go from A to B to C to D.
00:34:02.765 --> 00:34:06.005
A lot of times you can resolve it, especially if they're willing to take action.
00:34:06.154 --> 00:34:09.085
Okay, so before we wrap up, what's next for you?
00:34:09.434 --> 00:34:11.125
What are your big plans on the horizon?
00:34:11.425 --> 00:34:24.670
The next plan is to continue to build the brand, continue to put out amazing content, continue to lean into AI to help produce, I think I'm gonna do an audio book through AI so that it's my voice.
00:34:24.690 --> 00:34:26.349
But I don't have to sit and read every word.
00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:29.480
And to create an audio book for my new book, Be That Lawyer.
00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:31.110
I'm always looking for self-improvement.
00:34:31.250 --> 00:34:37.269
I'm always looking to figure out better mousetraps in ways of accomplishing things for me and for my clients.
00:34:37.630 --> 00:34:51.030
I think it's just a never ending effort to learn and get an education and business and in life and continue to live a great life and emulate what I'm trying to show attorneys can happen when you work hard and you build a brand and you help a lot of other people accomplish their dreams.
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:51.920
I love it.
00:34:51.949 --> 00:34:52.760
Very inspirational.
00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:55.519
Alright, Steve, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:56.440
I really appreciate it.
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:57.889
This was a great conversation.
00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:58.349
Thank you.
