Ken Hardison Takes Us Inside His Biggest Marketing Decisions

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Today we have a real treat.
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We have Ken Hardison from Pilma.
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Um I'm truly pumped up to talk with Ken today.
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He is someone who has mentored me, he's helped me grow considerably in my career.
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He's not only super smart, he's a really good dude.
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We can all learn a ton from Ken.
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He's a personal friend of mine, so I'm really excited to talk with Ken today.
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As always, uh encourage you to sharpen your pencils.
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There'll be plenty of writer-downers, I'm sure.
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So make sure you take lots of notes, right?
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We're gonna be we're gonna be chopping up quite a bit today.
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Uh so Ken, thank you so much for coming on your show.
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I really appreciate it.
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No, thank you for having me, my friend.
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It's an honor.
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Oh, thank you.
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It means a lot.
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So I wanted to have you on the show because I know that you and I, we have a few things in common, and that's the that's the the person I like to bring on the show.
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Not random people, but people I actually have a connection with.
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And so you and I have quite a few things in common, as far as I can see.
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First thing is we're both really, really hard workers.
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We're just like, we put our head down, we work, we get stuff done, right?
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Um and we both had unique struggles growing up that we that we had to deal with and persevere and and get through.
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We are both passionate lawyer entrepreneurs, and we are as well fans of direct response marketing.
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That's an important point as well.
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And additionally, we're both, I think, on that topic with direct response marketing, have been influenced by Dan Kennedy.
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And finally, I see both of us as just forever learners, right?
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We get into this stuff, we we get into marketing and and law firm management, and we just I I know we both have a passion for that.
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And to me, I look at you as a guy with a lot of grit, and and I think grit is what all successful people need to have, right?
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We go through so many battles in life.
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You actually sent me as a Pilma member, you sent me a sign, it's the it's the word grit, and the definition of grit is right under that.
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It's it's actually in my office, and I love that sign.
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So grit is something that you have a ton of, I have a ton of.
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And so I'm just really excited to to talk with you.
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I know you, I know your story.
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For those who don't know Ken Hardison, could you just tell us about your upbringing, you know, mom and dad, what was it like growing up?
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Just take us back to when you were young.
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What do you what do you remember about that?
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Yeah, sure.
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And yeah, we do have a lot in common.
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The only thing is I'm like twice your age.
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I'm twice your age.
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You got a lot of energy, though.
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Yeah, I uh yeah.
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I got a wife that feeds me and stays on me to do things like walk and work out with a trainer and stuff like that.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so I grew up very humbly.
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I I I won't I wouldn't say that I ever missed a meal.
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Uh, you can still tell that I never miss a meal.
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But uh my I grew up uh in a little town, actually out in the country, uh on I-95.
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The clearest city had about 10,000 people in it.
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Dad had a fourth grade education, mother had an eighth-grade education.
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She worked in a factory sewing.
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My dad worked with a lumber company.
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Um so very young on, I started working, and I think we had about eight acre acres that my dad would raise tobacco on in the summer to try to help make make ends meet.
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And so I would help on the farm on that part, and we had a garden.
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We would grow a lot of our own vegetables and stuff and canned and all that kind of stuff.
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Wow.
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Had a few pigs, did a little slaughter every every you know, Christmas time when it gets cold, so you can do it outside because we didn't have freezers.
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And uh yeah, so we grew up like that.
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So I worked in the Bacca till probably I was in eighth grade, and then they started using herbicides that would make me this sick as a dog, and I got a job at a grocery store in eighth grade.
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And I worked there, I went up to become a butcher, so I worked there.
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And then like my junior through my junior and senior year, my dad got a job offer in another city, and he wanted to move, and uh I didn't want to go.
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And I'd already I was working that, you know, I was working pretty much just about a full-time job at going to high school.
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I worked because the grocery store stayed open at nine, ten o'clock at night.
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I get out of school and go work, work Saturdays, Sundays.
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And uh I was can't I was team captain of the football team.
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I had a girlfriend that, you know, I didn't want to move.
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And my dad says, Well, you don't have to move, but you're on your own.
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And I said, Okay.
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So I rented an apartment$15 a week across the street from the high school, and uh, you know, went to college to a local college, uh, worked my way through that, did the butchering and uh did some delivered some papers, worked in the law the library, work study at night.
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And uh got married between my freshman and sophomore year in college.
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Lucky enough to get in law school at Campbell University, uh, which no pe a lot of people know about, but it's we always beat Duke in Carolina Wake Forest on the bar exam.
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They teach nothing but North Carolina law, and they teach a lot of triad.
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So it's a good school to go to if you want to practice in North Carolina, and that's what I wanted to do.
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And I was fortunate enough to get a uh scholarship to go to law school.
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Uh it just they they paid their tuition and I had to buy my books and my room and board, but uh that was nice.
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Um and then uh, you know, I was still working some some, not as much when I was in law school, but some.
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And uh had our first kid, my first year law school, right before the the seminar exams.
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In fact, uh as we record this the day as he he turns 44 today.
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Oh my god, amazing.
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Yeah, Brad, Brad Hardison.
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Yeah, so it's kind of wild.
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And uh so I was clerking with different law firms, and uh, you know, like I said, we uh we grew up kind of poor, but I mean we had a roof over our head, I mean we had like a single-wide trailer, no underpinning, you know, it was uh but you know we got we got we got three square meals a day, and uh I bought my own school clothes and did all things like that.
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They just couldn't afford it, you know.
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But anyway, got out of law school, went and worked with this firm down at the beach area of North Carolina.
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Worked there about three months, and we worked six and a half days a week.
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We worked Monday through Saturday and then Sunday afternoon.
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How many hours a week?
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It was over eighty.
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Wow.
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Yeah, it was over eighty.
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So Carolina was playing Clemps, and this is probably 18, 1982, and both of them were ranked in like the top ten in the nation.
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It's back when Lawrence Taylor was playing with the with the Clempson, and Carolina had a bunch of really good people.
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LT.
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And I had somebody at one of my law schoolmates said, I got a couple free tickets.
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You know, you and wife come on up and let's what go with the game.
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So I went in like Monday before the Saturday ballgame.
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I said, uh uh, I want to take off Saturday.
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And he said, I just don't see how you can do it.
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I said, we don't have any trials Monday.
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He said, I just don't see it.
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He said, we got too much to do.
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You know, so I walked back to my office and I sat there and I thought about it.
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Yeah.
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And I walked back in and I said, I quit.
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I said, What I was gonna do with a kid, wife moved up there, she didn't have a job, only been there two or three months, and uh I said, I can work, I can walk out right now or I can work until you can find somebody to replace me.
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I said, But I am going to the ball game, by the way.
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Uh you know, and uh and and since then I've never worked for anybody else, and I just I don't think I'd do good at it, you know.
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Uh huh.
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You know, and I went back to my hometown, opened up an office, uh, really just went around to every lawyer in town in the county and said, You got any cases that you don't want, I'll take them.
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You got any research, I'll do it.
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Anything you throw my any bones you can throw my way, I I appreciate it.
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And they they were they give me a lot of work.
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And uh then, you know, I uh I would go around to the country stores and sit around and drink Coca-Cola's with peanuts and and just get to know, you know, just let everybody know I'm back in town because I hadn't been gone, you know, going off to school I'd been gone.
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And uh, you know, got back in the church and got back in the clubs and uh but yeah, okay.
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I didn't make a lot of money the first year, to be honest with you.
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I mean, I think I'm the gross$36,000.
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Better than I did.
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Better than me.
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Yeah.
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And uh but I was working this is the 80s.
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This is in the mid 80s, right?
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This is in the 80s, yeah.
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That's not such a bad first year, man.
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No, probably not.
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Because I mean, starting salaries were like 28,000.
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Uh, even for Brit people, you know, for around unless you were Wall Street lawyer.
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Most a lot of my schoolmates started for 25,000, 28,000, the really good ones.
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So I well, I did all right.
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Of course, they had some overhead, of course.
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But uh there's this law firm across the street that had been there since 1932.
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It was like three generations, like grandfather, father, and son.
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And of course, the the grand the grandfather had died.
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And the gr and the father was getting really old and he didn't want to go to court anymore.
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So they started associating me to go do trials for him because his son was more of a real estate estate lawyer.
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He really didn't like do he didn't really like trials.
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And to be honest with you, we really weren't good at it.
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And after about a year of that, they made me partner.
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Well, uh made me a third partner, and uh without me having to buy him, which was really nice of him.
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And uh I built a really big PI practice over there.
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And then I did DWI's criminal and and and PI and a little bit of workers' cops social security.
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And uh, you know, when we hired another lawyer, he did domestic, and then my partner, he was doing real estate and state work, wills and trusts, stuff like that.
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So we grew I grew the business like I like five times the business over like ten years of what they were doing when I joined.
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And uh and I I I guess you can say I'm bragging, and I guess I am, but in the South, if if it's the facts, it's the facts, it ain't bragging.
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But they uh my two partners at that time, because the father had died by then, they were they were actually bringing home more salary than they were bringing in gross.
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Uh so that wasn't good, right?
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Uh but I I was okay with it because, you know, it we we we gave us a full service law firm.
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I w that was my thinking at the time.
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But I saw her practice in 93 and 94, starting to kind of just plateau.
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And I go to court one day, this is like '95, and I got a stee-up WI client, and uh he walks in the courtroom with crutches, and I said, Joe, what happened?
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He said, I got hit by a semi.
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I said, Well, you know I do that.
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He said, Yeah, but I hired this guy off TV.
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I figured he must be able to be good if he's on TV.
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And I said, Damn.
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So I go and try his case.
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I went to DWI and uh go back to the office and I sit down and said, I told my partner, I said, We've got to change, we've got to start marketing.
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And they said, No, we're it's unprofessional, we're not gonna do it.
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And so we had a dialogue for about six months, and finally I just left.
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And I took uh two staff and uh three staff and another associate lawyer and went out and I borrowed everything I could borrow off about all the and money I had saved.
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I took all my savings, I took everything I had, leveraged it, and went on TV.
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And uh five years later we had 13 lawyers and 47 staff.
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Uh, and we were doing like from five half a million to eight million, like five, six years.
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Might have been six.
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Uh I won't say five, but it was like at least yeah, about five or six.
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And uh you know, kept that going and rolling along and uh then I don't know, I woke up one morning in about 2007 and then I said, you know, I'm not looking forward to going to work anymore.
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And uh got to thinking about it, and I said, you know, I proved it, but you know, I want to do something else, or maybe I want to retire.
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So I s uh I worked out a deal with my partner then, Ben Cochran.
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And uh I went three years, like I worked four days, then I went the next year, I worked three days, and the next year I worked two days, and then I turned it over to him.
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And uh financed the whole deal for him because I trusted him.
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And uh I moved down to the beach, was gonna play golf and fish and just enjoy life at 52.
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And uh got very bored very quickly.
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Uh and so, you know, uh lawyers were calling me all the time and emailing me because I was still off council at the old law firm, so people could still get up with me.
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And uh just picking my brain all the time, and then my wife said, You need to start charging for this, kid.
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Uh I said, Well, you're probably right.
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She says, you know, she's so we did, and we started Pilma in 2009.
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That was kind of like before then, because I sold a firm in 2010, but it was kind of like a hobby.
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I was doing a mastermind that's had one mastermind, it was like six or seven lawyers.
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But anyway, we just played around with it kind of like a hobby, but it gave you something to do, something to get up, look forward to.
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Uh who don't like to, you know, show off their their knowledge, right?
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I mean, that's just the ego.
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But you know, it just really took off, and then two or three years later it got it to a million dollars.
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I said, this could be a real business.
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And so I really got serious about it then, and just and I and I got I got, you know, as you do things, you get better at it, right?
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I got I got better at it, I think I did anyway.
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Uh you'll have to be the judge of that.
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I don't know, you've been with me.
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But I think I get better.
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I think I learned, I mean, you know, the big deal about me is I know you never know at all.
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So I'm welcome to learn new things.
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I mean, like the stuff that we have now that I didn't have.
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We had the internet, but it had just started good.
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I mean, we started doing uh website in 2003, so that was 20 years ago, but there was no social media, uh, there was no Spotify, there was no uh uh LinkedIn, you know, you know, it was uh it was all just TV billboards and yellow pages.
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And that's changed because yellow pages is gone, you know, and I was one of the first people to pull out of yellow pages.
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I was spending in 2005 I spent six hundred and thirty something thousand dollars on yellow pages in North Carolina.
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In 2006, I spent$35,000.
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I cut it$600,000.
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And I drove all, I had all the big wheels coming down talking to me.
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What the hell are you doing?
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I said, this I said, I've been keeping my numbers, and this is why you want to know your numbers, right?
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I said, yeah, I'm getting calls.
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They said, Well, you're getting calls?
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Oh, yeah, but look, here's the deal.
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Eight years ago, I was getting cases for$300.
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Now it's costing me$2,700.
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I said, and my average fee is only like$8,000.
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I said, I gotta have a five or six return.
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I said, I ain't saying I ain't getting it, but it's just not pretty whereas with TV, I was getting them for about five, six hundred dollars.
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Right?
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So I said, you know, and in the internet I was getting them for like even three hundred dollars.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:15.679
So I took all my money and put them to buy it at TV and and uh the um internet because if I hadn't on my number, that's why I, you know, I've really preached this, you gotta know your numbers.
00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.279
I mean, and it's harder now because things come from everywhere.
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.200
But uh online you can tell to a certain degree.
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:29.519
Depends on the bigger yard, the harder it is to to to do uh to have uh a tri you know what I'm talking about attra attribution.
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:30.000
Sure.
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:31.679
Smaller you are the easier it is.
00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.840
Uh because you ain't doing so many things, right?
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:34.480
Yeah.
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.080
But uh but here's a little tip.
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:45.200
When everybody calls you, don't just ask them how they heard about you, ask them what they were looking at when they dialed the number.
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:46.240
Okay?
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:55.600
Because that can make and then also ask them like if you do TV and they say, I got I got I'm looking at the internet, say have you ever heard have you ever seen our TV commercial, you ever heard our radio commercials?
00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:00.720
Just do a little more a little bit more, just that extra fifteen seconds.
00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:07.119
And listen, it's still not a science, and you're still not gonna be a hundred percent, but it having something's better than having nothing.
00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.440
Uh you know what I'm saying?
00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:11.279
It's like uh but it is harder.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:19.519
I mean it was it was so much easier when I was practicing back in the 90s and early 2000s, because you really could kind of track.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:29.599
We use tracking numbers, and they want this people going on TV and then going to the internet and calling you off your internet number, and it's just a lot different.
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:31.200
Yeah, no, no question.
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.039
Well, I I love the story, man.
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:34.720
I gotta go back in time a little bit.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:35.519
Let me ask you this.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.599
Did you ever have a paper route by chance?
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:46.400
Yeah, yeah, I had I delivered I knew it like a junior and senior in high school in the freshman year in college, I was delivering 300 papers every morning.
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:53.519
Uh I had a Volkswagen, and I'd get up at three o'clock and have them done by it took me six because I had it like a 60-mile route.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.920
It won't it wasn't a city route, it was a country route.
00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:57.119
That's hardcore, man.
00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:57.839
That's a lot of rounds.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:58.720
Yeah, it was hardcore.
00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.400
Yeah, and I would sit there and rub them up.
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:14.799
You know, I'd go to the post office, they had I remember they'd drop them off about three o'clock, and uh I'd go up there and throw them in the back, and I'd have my rubber bands there, and I'd sit there and drive with my with my uh legs and set there a rubber band on and throw them out.
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:16.880
Yeah, whipped them out.
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.680
Yeah, and then when it was raining, I had to put them in plastic bags and just change it.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.519
But yeah, I did that for several years.
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:29.759
I finally just got burnt out on it, and um and I was I was just tearing my car all to pieces.
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:34.799
I mean, I had to I put like I put three new rebuilt motors in that Volkswagen in about four years.
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:35.839
It's a big paper.
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:41.119
I'm telling you, everyone, so many successful people who I talk to, I ask, hey, have you did you have a paper?
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:41.759
Yes.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:43.519
It's the funniest thing, man.
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.480
It's just so just a universal truth.
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.400
I don't know, do we still even have paper?
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.400
Are they I don't even think they're a thing anymore?
00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:51.680
Um, I still get one.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.480
I get I actually get the uh Wall Street Journal every morning.
00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:54.960
Okay.
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.519
I cut my local paper, but I do get it.
00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:02.640
Now my wife, she don't even she pulls everything off of uh she it's uh digital.
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:03.680
She does the New York Times.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.119
Yeah, she reads Wall Street Journal on her phone.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.920
Yeah, I I'm old school, I just prefer the smell of the ink and touch it.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:12.400
Yeah.
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:12.960
Yeah.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:17.920
I j I don't know if there's actually paper boys and paper girls running around anymore, but it's it's different.
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.880
But I gotta ask you a question, it's kind of stuck at me.
00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:27.839
So when your dad and you kind of you decided to stay and he decided to leave, how did that feel for you though?
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.599
I mean, um, did it feel like he was leaving you?
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.680
Or was it I mean they left, but I mean I I could have gone with them.
00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:37.200
I mean, it's a public left.
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:45.680
No, I mean I felt a little guilty because I felt like I might be abandoning my family, but I knew I was gonna be leaving the next year anyway.
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:49.279
And and I really, I mean, I had a good gig there with the football team.
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:54.720
I know if I went up to Sanford or they were moving, I'd have to prove myself and whether I'd have to get to play.
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.880
Which is kind of funny because Sanford won the state championship the next year.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:00.160
Wow, no kidding.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.599
But it was a different but it was a different division, you know, a different class.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:09.680
Uh they were like division four, we were like division three, or whatever they call it, you know, three A versus four A.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.599
It was a bigger school.
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.640
But uh yeah, a little bit, but not too bad.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:16.000
And listen, I'd go up and see them.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:23.119
I mean, you know, me and Dad, we'd you know, I mean, it wasn't like I just walked away and didn't never have any conversation with anybody.
00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:31.119
I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I'd go up and I don't know, and my grandmother lived in town and I could go over there and wash my clothes, you know.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:38.799
She lived out in the country, and that that they kind of that helped too, because I could kind of look out look out for her to make sure she was all right, she lived by herself.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:40.319
Let me ask you this.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.759
How did they, I mean, you know, modest beginnings, right?
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:45.440
You know, just to be blunt.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:47.759
I mean, uh, what did your parents say about you going to law school?
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.400
Were the heads just spinning, like at that success?
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:51.599
I mean, how did they tell you?
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:52.400
Yeah, it's funny.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:00.319
It's funny, you know, to deal with my dad was never a guy to really like give a lot of affirmation.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:12.640
Um, but he just was not a guy to Now after he died, I had people come up and tell me, he said, Your dad was so proud of you, you just don't know how much he bragged on you.
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:14.319
So that he would not brag to me.
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:15.279
You know what I'm saying?
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:17.200
He didn't want me to get a big head, I think.
00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:22.559
So he never would, you know, uh and and uh he died very early.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.079
He died when he was 62.
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:31.200
Uh I was probably in my 30s, like mid-30s, uh, when he died.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:36.400
Um So yeah, but uh yeah, he was tough.
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.559
I mean he wasn't mean, but he was just tough.
00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:39.359
You know what I'm saying?
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:47.039
He just was my mother was the the the feel good, love you, hug you, tell you how much she loves you every day.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:48.480
She was all that.
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.559
And of course she lived a lot longer.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.279
She lived like twenty two years after he died.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:54.960
She just died a couple years ago.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:55.839
She was eighty eight.
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:56.720
Yeah.
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:58.799
But no, she lived a good life, you know.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:21:59.440
Yeah.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.119
Yeah, she was she was ready.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.359
She was ready.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.000
She had made her peace with the world.
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:06.799
She was ready to go.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.039
Well that's a that's a you know, that's that's all we can ask for for her parents, right?
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:12.240
Yeah and ourselves.
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:26.400
So you um I just I just hearing your story, it's just uh you know, thinking for you know, not being uh always looking ahead at an extra the next opportunity, seeing that you know, seeing this, you know, one firm is just you know working to death.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.279
I want to go to the football game, you know, and that's that's the life I want.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.720
But that's hard as hell.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:31.920
Like that was a scary moment.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.359
Looking back, it's like, oh, I did that.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.079
But at the moment, like that's scary as hell.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:40.960
Um spending all that money on TV, looking back, it all worked out, but that was scary as hell.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:49.759
So, you know, I would encourage the listener, you know, successful people, they they get through adversity, but they keep on going, right?
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:52.240
I mean, Ken, myself, right?
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.000
There's just there's so many people out there that just keep on moving forward and you have to.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.119
And I just, you know, I look at you and me, there's a lot of grit there.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:22:59.839
Just grit.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:04.480
You either you can't like teach grit, you can't put that on somebody, right?
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:10.640
And I and I hear grit in the street, and I and I and I and I uh share that feeling, right?
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:17.839
Because like, and I've been open, I'm not the best freaking lawyer, I'm not the best trial lawyer, but I'll work I'll outwork you though.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.359
You know, that's so I lean into that.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.559
I know you relate to that.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:24.240
Like we'll outwork the pack, and it's nothing special about us.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.440
We're just like that's just what we lean into, and we we're good at that stuff, you know.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:33.440
You know, it's it's kind of that was kind of the way I was raised, you know, you just outwork your opponent, you know, outwork, you know, to get ahead.
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:34.720
Now, I have changed.
00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:38.400
I still work hard, but I have tried to learn to work smarter.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:55.119
And what I mean by that is you have to uh used to, and this is probably a real big revelation to me, is to leverage my strengths and just delegate my weaknesses and get hire people smarter than me and empower them and entrust them.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:24:02.480
You know, hold them accountable, but but uh see I can teach management all day long, but I'm a terrible manager.
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:11.759
Now, I'm I'm I'm a I think I'm a great marketer, I think I'm a great ideal guy, I'm a good visionary guy, and I'm not a detail person when it comes down to getting in the weeds.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:21.599
I can give you the big idea and kind of give you the outline, but when it gets down to the little nitty-gritty, I gotta have somebody else to do that because I'll get too bored.
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:23.599
I I can't got the attention span to do it.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:24.319
You know what I mean?
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:24.799
I don't know.
00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:27.519
But I think that's that was a big deal.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:28.480
You're right, though.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:35.920
Somebody was on somebody else's podcast and said, What do you think are like the two or three things, you know, that are the keys to success?
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.039
And I said, grit and focus.
00:24:39.440 --> 00:25:04.160
Especially grit, because you cannot, you if somebody says no or you could run over this obstacle, you just figure out go around it, above it, underneath it, you know, however, you just figure out how you don't take no for an answer, and you just keep charger for, and then focuses, and this I've always had to grit, I've had to work on the focus because entrepreneurs we're we're terrible about getting the next shiny object.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:08.400
We could we could get distracted because we want to try this, try that, and you spread yourself out too thin.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:10.559
And I've been I've been guilty of that several times.
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:23.119
I've actually been retracting some of my businesses and getting out of them and selling out some of them, whatever, and trying to get just focused on Pilma and NAML because I got some other ventures, you know, and I'm messing with Mastorch too.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:27.839
So it's uh but I really think it takes a lot.
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.480
There's like a hundred things you need to do to be successful, have a build a successful law practice.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:44.000
But really, it comes down to it all starts with you as the leader, and you've got to have grit determination, and you've got to have focus, you know, and then you've got to uh you gotta be a good leader, you know.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:45.839
You got to I think I'm a good leader.
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.200
I don't think I'm a good manager.
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.480
But a leader is a lot different than a manager, in my opinion.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:51.920
No, I I hear you on that.
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:53.759
I'm thinking about the book as you as you speak.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:59.119
I'm thinking about the book Think and Grow Rich, you know, Focus, Clarity of Thought, right?
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.480
For anyone who hasn't read that, um, and if you have read it, read it again.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:09.119
That's a that's that's like the OG book of mindset success um thinking.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.200
So I think I think that's a really good book.
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:17.680
So, you know, and and I feel like as an entrepreneur, you need to have an appetite for risk.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:26.480
Like I tend to lean, like, I'll I'll take a gamble, like I'll I'll do something that maybe other people are shy, shy reticent or unwilling to do.
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.119
And I feel like you and I both let it ride.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:29.920
If it works, great.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:36.079
You know, if you have a you just talk about business, if if something in your business is not working out, retract, you can just go somewhere else.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:37.680
But at least you tried that.
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.960
A lot of people don't try, and it's like, you know, you just gotta stay where you are.
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:49.599
But you have to be, you know, I just hear your career arc, you kept leveling up and not being satisfied, right?
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:51.519
And just being hungry and hungry.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:55.839
And so I just I want to ask you in the early 90s, you said you plateaued.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:56.720
Why?
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:58.960
Why do you think because you had such growth in the 80s?
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.359
What happened in the early 90s before you get to TV?
00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:03.200
Why do you think you plateaued at that point?
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:10.640
Uh well, uh I didn't know for a long time, but it was really uh TV advertisers really started heavy in North Carolina in the early 80s.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.359
I mean, well, actually, no, what was it?
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:16.960
Bates versus uh Arizona was in 87, 88.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.119
I thought even earlier, but yeah.
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:27.759
But anyway, the big the guys that start doing big TV in in North Carolina until about 82, 80, I mean 92, 93.
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:28.400
Okay.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:43.759
And that's kind of what I figured, I figured that, you know, got a walking at it, and I talked to this company, said, Yeah, when he looked at the what the history of like the last four or five years and the last two years of like quadruple what been spent on TV by PI lawyers.
00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:46.319
He said, That's where that's where your cases are going.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:48.160
They're going to ECB lawyers.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.480
You know, and he, you know, and that's what I kept telling about when I found that out.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:58.240
I said, I don't like it, but listen, you you've got to pivot and change with the times.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.400
I mean, we learned that with COVID, right?
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.599
I mean, you cannot sit there, and I got so mad.
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:12.160
I I'd be sitting back in the courtroom waiting to try DWI cases, and some of the lawyers back there just moaning and groaning about the TV lawyers and how they're taking our cases.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.839
I said, but they ain't our cases.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:19.279
I said, whoever cases gets them, I said, that you guys can keep moaning and groaning.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.279
I said, but I'm gonna go do something about it.
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:22.319
And I did.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:26.000
And then then I became a TV lawyer, and then they hated my guts.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.880
But you know, but I tried not to be a meal.
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:31.119
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.440
We really we really worked on client service.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:35.039
That was a big part of our deal.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:41.440
We we had a bill of rights, I had a 800, free 800 number client advocate hotline.
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.440
We had a 30-day satisfaction guarantee, and you come get your filing time.
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.039
We had a lot of different things we did.
00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.160
We papered people to death, we called them every 30 days.
00:28:52.480 --> 00:29:05.759
I mean, we just did a lot of different things uh to build that and you know, some of the other stuff that I teach, you know, with the newsletters and the client advisory group and the books and all this kind of stuff.
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:11.440
We really we were spending at our height about two million dollars a year on marketing.
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.319
And still 42% of our cases came from old lawyers or doctors, old clients.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:20.559
42% came from old clients.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:21.599
So I'm with you on that.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.880
The tribe, the herd.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.839
Because you could, you know, you could do TV, you could, you know, but you you you have your people who know you, like you, and trust you.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:40.079
Like that's what I've taken from you and really run with that customer service, you know, making them happy, raving fans, because they'll tell everyone how great Ken is, how great Chris is.
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:43.440
Hopefully, you know, not everyone is you know gonna be a raving fan.
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:45.200
If you do good work, you're gonna grow.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.519
Now, if you're doing all this, you know, TV and then neglecting your business your clients, you're gonna go somewhere else.
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:54.400
Now, I'm interested, I I'm hearing from you like the mid-90s, was it 95 that you did started TV?
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:55.279
96.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:56.160
96.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.319
I know, I know the story, but tell our listeners, how did that change the game for you when you when I was?
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:03.279
Well, I went from 20 cases abrupt to 120.
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:05.599
I mean, listen, you can't do that now, okay?
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:08.319
But the market was not as saturated as it is.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:13.200
Well, I mean, back then it wasn't I had to turn it off because I couldn't handle the caseload.
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:33.759
I now I had to come in and I and I had to rearrange some things because I had to now I had to use some of that money I borrowed to hire people, yeah you know, and stuff, and and uh and people investigators to go out and sign these people up because back then there was no online signing up and you know we were and we were in 20 counties, so I mean we we had to go to them.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:35.200
I mean, you know, yeah.
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:37.759
It's uh it's just changed so much.
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:39.440
But you you know you gotta change with the times.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:41.359
I mean, there wasn't any AI either.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:55.200
But see, when I started uh there was we didn't have a copier in the in the office, we didn't have a computer in the office, we had IBM selectors, and we used carbon paper to make copies for the court pleadings.
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:56.480
I mean, that's just the way it was.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:57.359
It had white app.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:01.200
Then I was the first guy in the county to buy a word processor.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:11.200
I was the first law firm in the county to buy computers and hook them up, you know, and and my my my phone now has got more power than my first computer had.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:12.720
Oh, easily, easily.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.079
I mean, it was like uh uh 286K or so.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.440
I mean it was like nothing.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.759
It was like uh yeah, I mean you watch it's got more power now.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:22.880
I mean, that's just crazy.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:28.480
But but I was always the I was always the guy out there trying to lead, trying to figure out how to be more efficient.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:38.559
Uh very lucky that I hired some really good people that were a lot better than me at systems, processes, management, and they kind of helped me.
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:43.599
Uh Cheryl Leon and Dave Faber, I couldn't have done it without them, just to be honest with you.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:49.839
So I was the marketing genius, but I was not the I was not the not the infrastructure.
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.519
Well, we talked about plan your strengths, delegate your weaknesses.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:54.240
That's the key.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:32:01.279
Because I think you should just do a few, if you can do a few things right, and then find rock stars, surround yourself with them, get out of their way, train them up.
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:02.720
That's how you grow and scale.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:09.359
Now, was the TV thing, was it like literally like that month it just kicked up, or was it a ramp up?
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:13.359
It took a it took about 90 days to get to 120.
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:14.000
That's fast.
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:15.599
So, what'd you do about staffing though?
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.440
Because you must have been kind of freaking out.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:18.240
I went nice.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:18.880
Yeah.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:20.160
Yeah, that's that's six times.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:21.200
That's scary almost.
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:22.640
It's almost like too much.
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:24.400
Yeah, it was it was too much.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:28.880
We cut back some, I cut back my budget, I turned it off for two months.
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:30.319
Yeah, I mean I did.
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:32.000
I I cut it back like 50%.
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:33.279
I was spending 40.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:34.559
I went to 20.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:43.279
And and and then uh I took that money I had to set aside, you know, to hire more help because it was scary.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:43.759
It was scary.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.319
I got scared.
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.039
I'm not gonna lie about it.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:45.440
I got scared.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:46.960
Oh, I I'm putting myself in that space.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:47.839
I would be freaking.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:49.599
I mean, that's like that's stress.
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.240
You know, you you watch what you wish for kind of case, right?
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:59.759
I mean, you just got the fl you obviously, you know, you dug, you dug, and you hit payder, and it was like, oh, this explosion of oil you found.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:00.160
Yeah.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:01.200
See, it's so funny.
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:08.240
Now it takes 12 to two, 12 months to 24 months to give traction on TV because everybody's on TV.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:18.400
Would you still do TV today if you were uh you know, if it was back where you were in the mid-90s, would you would you still get on TV?
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:28.079
If I had enough budget to stay with it and and and and persevere, because it you're gonna be you're gonna get very frustrated with it.
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:34.240
And if I could be if I had a I do I could at least spend ten percent of what here's the goal.
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.880
You gotta take look what's being spent every month.
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.759
And if you can't at least spend ten percent of that, don't do it.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:42.480
And then the other deal is I like to be in the top three or four.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.039
That's where I really like to be in the top three or four.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.599
But if I can't be in that, I gotta at least have ten percent.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:56.640
And then I gotta sit there and know that I gotta spend whatever that amount is for 18 months and probably gonna be in the whole millions.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.480
And I gotta be okay with that.
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:02.559
And sleep at night and keep the if you're not okay with that, don't do it.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:04.000
It's not for the faint of heart.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:17.360
I gotta I I it was so much easier for me in my time, you know, it's time and like everything, but uh Yeah, I mean I think there's so many other ways to do it now, and I think uh online stuff.
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.760
I think radio is a cheaper way to do it, to be honest with you, if done right.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:28.239
I think uh I think if you do a combination of radio and billboards, you could be just as effective.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.039
But I think there's so many other ways to get cases online.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:35.360
I mean, you know, we talk about all these things, I mean, all these different referral systems you can set up.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.440
I mean, just so many different ways.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.719
At my height, I had 32 different stractics as I was doing to get cases.
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:47.679
I mean, and some of them cost me zilch and some of them cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars a month.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:53.840
But the deal was I used them all and I and I pushed them all just as if I was spending money on all of them.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:35:03.519
What I'm saying is I I put the metal, put the pedal to the metal on all of them and pushed it because you know what is Dan Kennedy, you know, one's a terrible number.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:06.880
I think just rely on and but back in my day, that's what most lawyers did.
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:08.480
They just throw more money at it.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.840
And if they wanted more cases, they just up their budget.
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:13.519
Can't quite do that now.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.440
I mean, that's not that's not enough.
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:25.840
Uh but it made PI lawyers very lazy marketers, you know, and and this is to be honest, it's such a lucrative field that you could actually be bad at at it and still make money.
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:26.719
Just be an honest.
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:27.360
Oh yeah.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:27.760
Sure.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.559
I mean, I mean you can be terrible at marketing.
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.800
Listen, my first commercials, I wouldn't even dare put them on today.
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:36.000
They were terrible.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:37.199
But it didn't matter.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.639
It didn't matter.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.480
I mean, it just didn't matter.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:43.599
You know, it's uh because it was just weren't no competition.
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.000
Yeah.
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:49.519
I mean, I was spending 40,000, I was the number two guy in the market with a million people in the market.
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:50.800
You know?
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:51.599
Oh man.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.239
Wow, it's changed so much.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:56.159
You know, you mentioned Dan Kennedy, and I'm interested.
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.320
So I learned about Dan Kennedy through Ben Glass, right?
00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:59.280
The Ben Glass world.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.559
I know you know Ben Glass.
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:07.519
How did you how did you I it tell me if I'm wrong, did were you influenced in in some respect by Dan Kennedy?
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.039
I thought you spent a day with him.
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:09.519
Yeah.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:19.199
So I was in his mastermind, I was in his mastermind, and I hired him for a whole day consult and uh and took my recorder and I sat there and recorded the whole day.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:31.760
But you know, so when in '96, when I was trying to figure out how to do the marketing, I mean I figured out the TV, but there was other ways to do it, and there wasn't nobody out there sharing because the guys that were successful were going to share.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:41.519
And uh I didn't know anything about a mastermind, so I went to his stuff, I studied with I went in Jay Abraham's mastermind, I was in his mastermind.
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:42.559
It's not cheap.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.840
Yeah, I went no, it was investment though the way I looked at it.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:52.159
Listen, I would have figured it out anyway, but it just made me go so much faster.
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.400
And that's what it's all about, speed, right?
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:54.800
Yeah.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:55.760
Saving money.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:28.719
You know, people when people talk to me, okay, this is kind of high for a mastermind, I say, Well, if you look at it at expense, I guess it is, but I look at it as an investment and you know, and and that you're going to go so much faster, even if you're smart enough to figure it all out yourself, you're gonna find out what doesn't work and what does work so much faster that it's gonna be worth the money that you're gonna waste and lose in the time factor it takes to get there, and that it's you're gonna have a the the ROI is ridiculous.
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:32.239
But but I was going around these people, and then I done something else too.
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:33.199
This is in '96.
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:35.760
I went down and spent three days with John Morgan.
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.719
And just just uh said, can I go down and just shout at you for two or three days?
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.840
And he back then he had about 20, 25 lawyers.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.519
I mean, he was not that big.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:50.079
I mean, he was still like the number one spender in Orlando, but he won't that big, okay?
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:57.679
And uh and he had a marketing company called P, which he sold a couple years ago.
00:37:57.840 --> 00:37:59.920
Uh Practice Made Perfect.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:00.639
Yeah.
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:05.440
And he sold that because of he was going national and pissing all his clients off.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.679
Which I mean, you know, you can't have it both.
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:08.960
And he's smart to get rid of it.
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:10.239
He he did the right thing.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.119
But uh I I I mean a lot of I learned a lot from him in those three days.
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:16.400
I mean, I just did.
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:17.039
Yeah, I did.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:19.280
What were some big takeaways you think?
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:24.639
If going back and one of the big takeaways was I I was in a town with about 10,000 people done.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:29.360
And I was having uh he said, if you want to be a big-time lawyer, you've got to go to the big town.
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.840
He said, What's the biggest city in your your market?
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.559
I said, Raleigh.
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:34.800
He said, That's where your office needs to be, Ken.
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:39.519
And that was a big jump for me, because that was about an hour drive.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:49.440
Uh and I put it off for about a year, but I would hire associates and keeping them, and they'd stay about a year, get trained, then they go off to Raleigh or Charlotte or Wilmington.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.440
They went because there was no social life in a town of 10,000.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:53.760
Sure.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:57.199
We were a dry county too, so there was no bars.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.159
So I didn't I couldn't keep anybody.
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:05.360
And so once I moved to Raleigh and I put office there, everybody stayed.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:08.559
I mean, it was I mean, the only people that left are people I fired.
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:08.880
Yeah.
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:10.079
The lawyers and stuff.
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:16.159
I mean, staff is a little different, but with lawyers, uh yeah, it was what else did you take away from John Morgan?
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:17.360
That's three days, that's a lot of time.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:17.840
Anything else?
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:24.880
Uh well, like one of the big dealers was uh asked him, I said, you know, you don't even own this office building.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:39.039
He said, Well, I said I ran it through an actual aerial company and I figured out if I took the same amount of money that I take to put put down and renovate a building, but versus I put it in my marketing, my return was like three times as much.
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:40.159
Interesting.
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:44.000
So so he said, you know, he said, I ain't saying I never want.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.360
And so when I went to Raleigh, I just leased buildings.
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:52.719
I mean, when I sold out my partner, he bought a building, but I just always leased them because we kept growing.
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:54.000
That's another thing too.
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.480
You build a building, you know, then you're kind of stuck, right?
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:56.800
Yeah.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:07.440
We we bought some satellite offices that that we knew we were never gonna have a big office there, like little, like little, you know, twelve hundred, fifteen hundred feet office space.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:16.800
And we'd put people in there to just work the desk, you know, like in Fedville and uh Durham, some of the bigger cities, but yet not as big as Raleigh.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:23.360
And I kept my hometown office just because I own that office to start with, and that's where I came from.
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:30.400
You know, it was out of probably not business sense, but just uh uh loyalty to the town.
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:31.519
I don't know.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:44.079
But yeah, that I guess that was probably one of the big deals, and and then he was talking, he taught me about, you know, he said, you really need to understand posting and on this TV stuff and and not let them take advantage of you.
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:48.320
He said, Well, you really need to hire my company, da-da-da, we can do it for you.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.840
And I didn't hire his company.
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:58.719
I didn't I uh I was just because he told me his plans was he's he's fulfilling his plans back from 1996.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.280
He's going he's on it, he's owning the market.
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:02.800
Very smart guy, very smart.
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:03.920
No, no question.
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:05.840
He was my first guest on this podcast.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:07.920
He uh had a very smart guy.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.760
Yeah, he was very generous.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:14.800
He's been and my interactions with lunch and on this podcast, very generous to me, and I appreciate that.
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:19.920
He's got a great story, he was a paper boy, you know, and just like he he didn't grow up, he didn't grow up wealthy.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:31.039
Yeah, he didn't grow up with a lot, but he had a he he he he he was giv you know he was given uh enough God given ability to just see things in a certain clarity, right?
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:35.199
Certain way to that um that is unique and uh he just went for it.
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:36.480
I think it's fantastic.
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.960
Um, but so so we're talking about Jay Abraham, you know, Dan Kennedy, uh John Morgan.
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:48.079
These so you I wonder if you could estimate, if you're comfortable sharing, how much money you've spent on your own professional development, because this stuff isn't cheap, right?
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:53.840
We're talking about you know, professional development, that's how you move the needle, that's how you get ahead, I feel, in business.
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:55.679
Probably 682?
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.599
Yeah, ballpoint, just all in, if if you were to estimate.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.960
Somewhere between 600 and 800,000.
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:11.360
But I think maybe, maybe, maybe a million, I don't know, because it's you always probably close to probably closer to a million than eight.
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:17.039
But your return on that, I'm sure, has been more than worth it, right?
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:17.840
So that's what we're talking about.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:19.440
You got to spend some money sometimes, right?
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:20.880
I encourage a listener.
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.320
You know, we'll talk about the you know, the mastermind experience, talk about coaching.
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:25.840
Yeah, you can't do this alone.
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:28.639
You can't do big things, just hang out in front of your computer all day.
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:31.280
Like you got to get out, you've got to meet other lawyers and work.
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.480
I mean, you know, I mentor a lot of people, but I still got mentors.
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:37.679
So are you in a mastermind yourself now or no?
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:38.800
I am.
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:50.159
I mean, I'm in I'm in uh one uh that's entrepreneurs that have that own info business like I do, but it's some of them are doing dentists, some of them are doing artists, some of them are doing musicians.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:50.880
Nice.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.360
Uh, you know, uh musician schools, what do you call them?
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:55.679
The where they teach you how to play instruments.
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:56.159
Sure.
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:56.480
Sure.
00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:57.440
Music schools.
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:03.039
Uh uh so we meet two or three times a year and share what's working and not working.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.400
Um that's really an only one I'm in right now.
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:07.840
But you're always doing something.
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:08.719
You're always doing something.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:13.840
Yeah, but I'm but I'm yeah, I know, like I'm doing some stuff now with uh Cardone.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:14.800
Oh yeah?
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:18.880
Uh I'm doing some stuff with uh Russell Bruxin on success.
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:33.360
He's he's bought out all this stuff from uh Napoleon Hill, and he's got this whole deal now for like$97 a month, and it's about success stories and success and mindset and different things like that in mastermind.
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.280
So I just did it out of curiosity, really.
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:35.599
Sure.
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:37.360
But uh it's pretty interesting.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:46.400
But yeah, I mean it but uh but I do you know I run five masterminds now a year that we meet three times, so I have 15 mastermind meets a year plus mine, so it's 18.
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.519
So I I mean 18 mastermind meetings a year, so that's a lot.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:52.800
So I'm gonna talk about Pilma, but there was a beginning to Pilma.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.760
So I think you said in in 2009 Pilma started, but your wife earlier than that was like, Hey, you gotta charge.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.800
Money for this.
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:06.800
Did it feel weird to because you obviously had accumulated knowledge about the industry, right?
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:11.360
Was it weirder first to ask to be paid for that knowledge, or did it just come very easy to do?
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.400
Yeah, yeah, it was.
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:26.639
And then and then the other problem is I've always had this problem, and of course some people will disagree with me, uh, but uh Abraham told me a long time ago, he said, you you you do not charge enough for for your knowledge base.
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:30.079
He said, You you it's like you don't believe in yourself enough.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:30.559
Yeah.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.639
He said, uh, so he he was asking me that for years.
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.519
I mean, for I mean, I have his cell phone.
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:39.920
I mean, I can I can I can dial him anytime I want to.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.360
I never try to bother him.
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:50.320
But ever sometimes he'll call me about something and you know, not ask me advice, but just to check on something or if I know somebody or you know.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.920
He always asks me, says, Have you gone up with your prices yet?
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:55.360
Yeah, sure, sure.
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:02.960
You know, but I've always and then and then I watch some guy, my competitors that are charging ten, twenty thousand dollars a month for masterminds.
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:07.760
And, you know, I'm not even close to that.
00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:12.320
And I I don't think I ever could charge that much because I don't think I could give that much value.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:13.440
I mean, I can and I can't.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.400
What I'm saying is I don't think people believe it.
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:22.800
And I'm just not a Tony Robinesque enough to do it, get up, get about, get away with it, you know, and that's okay.
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:29.280
I mean, you know, I actually am going up on my prices this year for the first time in four years.
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:31.840
I tell people I'm not doing this.
00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:34.559
The number one reason for doing this was not money.
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:42.480
I like money because money gives you freedom to do what you want to do with who you want to do it, but I don't love money, okay?
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.039
I used to love money when I first got out of law school.
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:46.239
I don't love it.
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:47.119
I don't love it anymore.
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:56.159
But I but I respect it and I like it, and it gives me the freedom to do what I want to do, and so this is more to me of a lifestyle business.
00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:56.639
Yeah.
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:59.119
And I really want to help people.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:04.000
Uh it gives it makes me feel good inside, it gives me purpose.
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:11.280
Uh it makes me feel like I'm still worth something that I can help, that I'm making some little difference in the world.
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:14.639
Uh, and of course, the money's okay, it's fine, I like it.
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:18.320
But it never was the number one reason I I started Pilma.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:19.039
You know.
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.400
Now when I first started my first law firm, that was it was to get money.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:23.679
I ain't gonna lie about it.
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.039
That changed.
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:33.519
Uh what I've learned is if you really give really good value and give really good service, you'll make all the money you want.
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:34.079
I promise you.
00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:34.800
I'd kill it.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:35.440
It's easy to be.
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:36.400
I'm serious.
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:37.199
I'm serious.
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:45.760
You'll make all the money you all the money you ever need, but if you've got to be authentic and sincere and you gotta have a passion for what you're doing.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:53.519
I've I've told all my children, and I would tell all you to tell your children, find something you got a passion for, and we we can figure out how to make money.
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:54.239
Oh yeah.
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:56.079
Because that's what happened to me practically.
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:58.480
Oh, I got it one morning I didn't have any more passion for it.
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.960
But just sit there and do it because I was making good money.
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.760
I was making a lot more money back then than I am even now.
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:04.960
Yep.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:07.920
But but but why be miserable?
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:10.239
I've seen a lot of miserable rich people.
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:11.840
I don't want to be miserable and rich.
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:18.639
I'd rather be uh very uh comfortable and happy.
00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:24.079
I mean, I never go wanting for I get everything I need and 90% of what I want.
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:29.760
But I don't want like a 737 plane, I don't want a hundred foot yacht, I don't want that stuff.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:39.280
Um I don't need uh Maserati, I don't need uh I'm older, and as you get older, that stuff is not as important as when you're younger.
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:39.920
Sure.
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:43.280
Um and I tend and you're talking about taking risk.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:50.719
When I was your age, I never worried about risk because I knew I knew how to make money, and I knew I was young enough I can make it back.
00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:53.360
When you get in your sixties, it's a little different.
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.840
You see, I know how to make money, but I don't know that I got enough time left to make it back if I lose ten million dollars.
00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:00.079
Right?
00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:07.599
Yeah, yeah, you yeah, you you have to you have to really take more calculated risks.
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:08.480
I still take risks.
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:10.400
I invest in my stores, that's a risk.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.400
Because all that could go, that could all go to hell.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:13.679
I hear you.
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:15.760
No, you know.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.119
So I do take risks, but but not as much as I used to.
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:23.199
When I was in my 30s and 40s, I I put it all on the line.
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:23.920
I mean, I did.
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.119
I went, I mean, I tried so many things that didn't work in marketing.
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:27.360
Sure.
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.440
But the things that did work, my God, we were way ahead of the pack.
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:34.559
We killed it for at least a year or two to everybody figured it out.
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:37.360
And then we were on with something else, you know.
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:38.000
I love that.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.719
No, you have to.
00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:41.599
And I love that.
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:43.039
So I gotta ask you this question.
00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:45.840
So you, you know, I'm just gonna be up front, you grew up poor, right?
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:46.239
Yeah.
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:57.119
Now you have Pilma, you have really smart, really successful personary lawyers paying really good money for your knowledge, right?
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:02.320
Considering, you know, your backstory, your story today, how does that make you feel?
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:04.079
That's a good question.
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:04.800
I don't know.
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:09.360
I mean, I feel honored, I feel grateful, feel humbled.
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:11.920
You know, I mean, yeah.
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:16.239
But people that really know me know that I'm a pretty humble guy.
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:22.960
I'm not really uh I got ego like everybody else, but it's not as like most PI lawyers, you know.
00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:26.639
A lot of most PI lawyers have to have a really big ego to be successful.
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:32.000
I don't think you have to be, but I I see that as a trait, and you know, and there's still some that don't.
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.480
Um but I've never had a big ego.
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:36.880
When I say big, I got an ego.
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.639
I've never been a braggart.
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:39.519
Does that make sense?
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:39.920
Sure.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:40.480
No, it's a good idea.
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:41.599
And that was hard, that was hard.
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:44.800
That was something Jay Abraham had to jump on me about too.
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:46.000
He said, Listen.
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.519
You know, he was the one that came up with the millionaire maker for me.
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:52.960
I was embarrassed with that that that deal.
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.679
And he says, You've got to anoint yourself.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.639
He says, Do you not believe you you really can help?
00:49:58.800 --> 00:49:59.599
I said, I know I have.
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:00.400
I've got proof.
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.559
He says, Well, then tell people.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.840
He said, Don't be afraid of it, don't be embarrassed by it.
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:09.920
He said, You he said, you it's like you don't have confidence in yourself.
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:11.280
I said, it's not that.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:15.280
I said, I just feel like I'm being a show-off or bragging, and I just don't like that.
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:17.119
I don't like people that do that.
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:17.599
Sure.
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:19.679
I mean, I I said, by actions don't speak loud.
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:20.480
He said, it doesn't.
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:23.360
He said, You've got he said, I'm telling you, kid.
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:35.360
I mean, that's my biggest struggle in life has been uh really pushing it out there that I'm I'm I'm I'm great and all this kind of stuff because it's very it's almost embarrassing.
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:39.280
I I think yeah, I know man, it makes a hundred percent sense.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:51.840
I think we're both super humble, and that's I think where we connect is that we know our stuff, um, and we we we didn't grow up, you know, nothing came super easy.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:54.880
So the silver spoons, the silver spoons in this mouth.
00:50:55.360 --> 00:51:04.960
And and that, and that just sort of like my like it just sort of sobers you and it just sort of like humbles you because like you said, there's so much arrogance in the PI space, right?
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:16.480
There's there's flash and and and and glitz, but I mean, you know, if when I whenever I speak, Ken, whenever I speak to like a bar organization, like they I'm I'm speaking to a bar organization again on Tuesday, Massachusetts, right?
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:27.599
The fact that lawyers are gonna listen to me talk about stuff that they that I know they want to know about, it's like goddamn, like that I never as a kid no one would have thought I would have done much, to be honest with you.
00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:35.920
And I just feel like that you and I, it's like made something of ourselves, took risks, used our tools, didn't didn't squander anything, took full advantage.
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:38.639
So the listeners on this call on the on the podcast, right?
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:39.920
Take advantage of all you have.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.239
And you have one ride on this bus, right?
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:47.280
You gotta either kill it, you know, crush it, or or take a seat, but you gotta make a decision.
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:50.960
Like, are you are you all in or or or you gotta figure out what's your purpose in life?
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:51.760
I really believe that.
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:53.280
I think everybody needs a purpose.
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:57.280
I think that's why when I retired, uh having purpose left.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:59.280
I think that's why a lot of people die quickly after they were.
00:51:59.679 --> 00:51:59.920
100%.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:01.440
Because they got no purpose.
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:03.599
When they get up in the morning, there's no real purpose.
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:04.960
I think you need purpose.
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:08.719
I mean, I think God puts you on this earth for something, or or if you don't believe in God.
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:12.800
What it ha s whoever put you here, put you here for a reason.
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:16.639
And and I I think it's, you know, uh I think I helped a lot of lawyers.
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:27.760
I've made enough money that I've helped a lot of um charities which I do not disclose because I don't I I got one that I do because I'm uh rep because I don't just put my money in it, I raise money.
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:34.320
Uh it's called Lawyers Against Drug Addiction, and the reason I started out is because I lost a son about five years ago.
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:42.320
Actually, last month, five years ago, to uh uh heroin overdose with the uh what uh what's that stuff they put in it now?
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:45.280
They lace it with uh he he had some of that stuff that comes from China.
00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.960
I can't remember the name of it now, but but anyway, he he died of overdose.
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:53.920
Uh but he'd been bad with drugs his whole life.
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:59.599
And uh you know, I always try to tr pull something good out of something bad.
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:00.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.960
You know, I never try to look at it like why, you know.
00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:07.440
I nearly there was a reason for that.
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:08.960
You know, he was going through hell too.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:12.320
He had he He tried so hard to stay clean.
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:13.599
I mean he really was.
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:16.159
He had been clean for a year, that's why he died really.
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:19.119
And then got hold of some of that which is too strong for him.
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:20.239
Sorry, man.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:20.800
That's terrible.
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:26.400
Yeah, well that's that's you know well it was one thing certain in life, it's death, but you never expect to see your kid die before you do.
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.079
And that you know, I lost my father, I lost my mother, I lost my brother.
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:39.679
None of it's ten percent of how mu I mean his death was like this the worst thing in the world.
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:42.000
I wouldn't ru I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:45.920
That was probably the worst thing that ever happened to me.
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:48.880
Um I know it is.
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:53.360
You know, and uh but I still didn't just you know give up.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.800
I said there's a reason for it.
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:58.880
I don't know the reason, but I'm gonna see if I can do something a little bit.
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.239
So now we raise money, we raised like a hundred thousand last year.
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:04.400
We're we're trying to raise some money this year.
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:08.320
I'm getting ready to do something new that you can be the first one to tell about it.
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:16.320
I'm gonna do this challenge, I'm gonna lose 50 pounds or more by the summit, and I'm gonna get people to pledge, I'll give people to pledge money.
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:18.400
And I and I'm killing two birds with one stone.
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.039
I'll be raising some money for my my charity.
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:30.079
And that that every bit of that goes to some organization, like we give it to some um uh uh nonprofit rehab centers.
00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:37.760
Uh but I even pay I pay everything out of my pocket, so there's no expenses in that charity.
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:41.199
I paid even the transaction fees for the merchant cards.
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:45.519
So everything that's when I tell somebody if you put a dollar in this, it's going fully.
00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:49.840
There's not a dime that goes to me or anybody else for admin costs.
00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.000
I pay all the admin costs out of my pocket.
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.559
Plus, I throw a lot of money in there with it.
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:02.480
Um but yeah, I'm gonna do that because uh I feel like that that'll hold me accountable because I'm not gonna let uh my charity down.
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:08.079
And it also would be uh it's accountability because I'm I've sat there and pushed it out there.
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:10.639
I wrote it down and I showed it to the world.
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.599
If I don't do it, I'm gonna I got too much grit not to do it.
00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:17.599
So we're gonna see.
00:55:17.679 --> 00:55:19.360
My wife says, I could never do that.
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:21.119
I said, it's the only way I will do it.
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:21.920
I said I don't know.
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.480
You're gonna have six-pack abs by the time of the summit.
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:25.599
I don't know about that.
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:26.880
I won't go that far now.
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:29.119
But I wouldn't I am gonna I'm gonna lose 50 pounds.
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.320
You'd be ripped.
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.320
Yeah, my doctor told me I need to too.
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:34.239
My blood pressure was a little up last week.
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:34.400
Okay.
00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:36.079
So yeah.
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:37.039
I'm gonna stick around.
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:38.800
I got a lot, I've still got some more work to do.
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.320
Well, I just feel like if you retired, you'd go crazy, man, if I'm being honest.
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:44.559
I just feel like I'll never retire.
00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:45.199
I might slow down.
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:46.000
No, I know.
00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:47.280
I know slow down.
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:49.599
I want to slow down, but I don't retire.
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:59.760
So you're gonna so you go to a lot of conferences because obviously, you know, you're on the trail and you're you're interacting, you're connecting with lawyers, networking, growing Pilma, right?
00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:04.559
And I've been, I think I've been a member for I want to say three years, you know, in the mastermind.
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:07.360
I'll be I'll be re-upping this this coming year.
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:12.000
I've gotten a lot of um serious growth in the last few years, and I attribute that to Pilma.
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:14.400
So I'd encourage everyone, you know, check out Pilma.
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.519
It's been a very strong organization for me professionally.
00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:21.440
And if anyone who knows me knows I don't mess around, Ken knows I don't mess around.
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:30.159
So I wouldn't be messing around with Pilma if it wasn't legit, you know, and that's no, and I think the people that are the doers, the only people that it doesn't work for are people that just talk about it and don't do it.
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:35.920
But if you if you implement, I'd say 25% of what you learn at these masterminds, you're gonna grow.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.039
You can't help but grow.
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:37.519
100%.
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.599
I wish I could say it was all my Brits, but it's really all these lawyers working together.
00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:42.320
Yeah.
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:52.800
You know, and it and just I I facilitate them and I put them together and I try to put people that put in the same issues and different things, and some that's got strengths of other places.
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:57.920
And but yeah, no, it's it's uh I just think it's a game changer.
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:04.639
I think masterminds, uh that's why I've been in one for the last 25 years, or either doing one or being in one.
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:05.679
I just really believe in them.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.159
Wrote a book on it, the Mastermind Effect.
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:10.800
How can people get that book if they want to get their hands on it?
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.519
Uh I think you can go to I think you can go to Amazon.
00:57:13.599 --> 00:57:16.480
And I think it uh we just got it, I think it's gonna be Audible.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.440
I think I think they're gonna download it in Audible by the end of the month.
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.079
So hopefully it'll be where you can just listen to it.
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:27.119
When's the uh book, I hated it, but I did it.
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.280
When uh is the is the Pelma summit uh next year, 2012?
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:40.559
It's May the 14th through the 16th, and it's gonna be in New Orleans at the uh it's not the Ritz, it's the uh Roosevelt.
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:41.840
Okay, awesome.
00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:44.880
I would encourage, you know, I go to that summit.
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:47.599
I'm gonna bring my marketing assistant to with me.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:50.320
It's my first business conference bringing someone from my office.
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:51.199
I'm excited about that.
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:52.719
It's a really good conference.
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:54.880
There are heavy hitters that go to this conference.
00:57:54.960 --> 00:58:00.639
And and I mean, I gotta I gotta be honest with you and ask you, like, I'm just going back, I'm just thinking about your dad, like how he and your mom, right?
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:01.440
How they would feel.
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:06.079
Like you're you got this conference, you know, all these letters coming across the country.
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:14.159
Um, I mean, your dad, you know, I just feel like even though he didn't give you a whole lot of attaboys, he's gonna be looking down and saying, my son did pretty good.
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:14.800
I'm sure.
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:15.199
I'm sure.
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:16.800
You know, and that's gonna make you feel really good.
00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:18.400
I know my my dad feels that way.
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:22.000
My dad is in here for under, you know, left under bad circumstances.
00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:24.559
I know he's proud, you know, and that's that's meaningful stuff.
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:25.440
It makes you feel good.
00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:28.320
Yeah, you want to you want to impress most people want to impress their parents.
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:29.280
100%.
00:58:29.840 --> 00:58:34.800
Yeah, and we're gonna have something special the last day of the conference.
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:42.079
We're actually having a breakout session for staff members that go in there and do workshops on how to use AI for marketing.
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:42.880
Oh, wow.
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:44.000
That's cool, man.
00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:46.800
For videos and different things, content.
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:47.519
I like that.
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.760
So, you know, we're gonna do that too.
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:51.760
So that we're gonna have something a little different.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:53.840
People make sure you sign up for that conference.
00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:54.719
Space is limited.
00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:57.920
You want to get in there, it's a really good room, awesome speakers.
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:09.519
So I think another good conference is Miami NTL, and you are very kind to allow me to have a stage there when you talk about grassroots marketing, because you and I are both really serious grassroots marketers.
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:10.719
That's a good conference too.
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:12.400
Miami NTL would encourage people.
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:13.679
Ken, obviously, you'll be there.
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:14.639
I'll be there.
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:16.239
That's a that's a great conference.
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.800
If you're a criminal lawyer, right, there's a track for you.
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:24.880
If you're a trial lawyer, if you're just running a your CEO running a business as a lawyer, that's a powerhouse conference, I think.
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:25.760
What do you think, Ken?
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:26.320
Yeah, it is.
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:36.239
There'll be over a thousand lawyers there, and uh they've been very kind and generous to me over the years to uh give me half of the first day to do a breakout session just for marketing and management.
00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:38.079
They call it the Pilma morning.
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:47.039
And so I can bring I could I can speak and bring in whoever I want to speak, and I've actually brought you and uh Tanner Jones, and that it's gonna be us three, and we're gonna be speaking that morning.
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:50.719
Uh I was just on Tanner's podcast like six months ago.
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:52.079
Super smart dude.
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:54.880
So I'm I'm honored, I'm grateful to be part of it.
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:58.639
I'm gonna bring my A game, you know, and I'm just I'm excited for that big time.
00:59:58.880 --> 00:59:59.679
Yeah, big time.
00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:00.320
Appreciate it.
01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:09.599
So, so um I want to ask you about uh, you know, kind of wrapping up, what do you think your greatest success in life is so far?
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:13.840
Ah, that's a good one.
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:15.519
Probably raising my children.
01:00:15.760 --> 01:00:16.639
I hear you.
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:17.760
You know what I'm saying?
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:27.920
I mean, you know, and listen, I raised them all the same, and one was a drug addict, and and then I have one that's a nurse, and I got one that works just a regular job because he's got learning disabilities.
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:40.079
But but the deal is uh they were all good kids, they all had good hearts, and uh they always had really great, great manners in front of other people.
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:42.000
They were always yes, sir, yes, ma'am.
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:42.800
That's what you want.
01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:52.800
I feel like me and their me and my ex-wife did a good job of raising uh instilling some manners in them, you know, and and and values and stuff like that.
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:55.280
I guess that's my biggest success story.
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:56.800
Uh that's what it's all about.
01:00:56.960 --> 01:00:58.159
That's my biggest success.
01:00:58.320 --> 01:00:59.760
It's not even you know close.
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:05.199
I think most people would just say, oh, building two law firms and selling them families or doing this, growing this.
01:01:05.519 --> 01:01:07.760
Nah, I mean that that's fun.
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:12.559
And it's it's yeah it's exciting, but it ain't gonna be a success.
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:22.400
I mean, you know, and I think uh I think also too that finally figuring out what it takes, because I mean I was I'm I'm on my second marriage.
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:27.199
Finally figuring out what it takes to make a successful marriage, because I was lost the first time.
01:01:27.519 --> 01:01:28.079
It's hard.
01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:28.559
It's hard.
01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:33.039
We both were, and uh I really feel I'm the happiest I've ever been.
01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:34.480
Good for you, man.
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:35.360
That's awesome.
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:38.480
You know, and uh she gets me, I get her.
01:01:38.719 --> 01:01:40.320
We respect each other.
01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:43.199
We were friends, we before we were lovers.
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:45.440
I just think it makes a big difference.
01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:47.119
You know what I'm saying?
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:47.760
I do know.
01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.639
We can agree to disagree, you know?
01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:51.199
Okay.
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.719
Yeah, that's probably my two big successes back.
01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:58.719
Yeah, I'm with you on that.
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:00.559
I'm with you on that big time.
01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:04.400
What book has had the most profound impact on you in your life?
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.400
Yeah, probably uh Michael Gerber's.
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:12.079
So either that one, it's between that one and think and grow rich.
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:18.960
You know, EMyth and Think and Grow Rich, probably the two most influential, far as got me thinking.
01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:19.360
Okay?
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:20.000
100%.
01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:21.360
You know what I'm saying?
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:27.440
I mean, uh I might write better books with better content, but I'm talking about had the biggest impact on me.
01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:28.320
You know what I'm saying?
01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:28.639
Yeah.
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:42.480
I think you know, I think there's some other books out there that are better as far as actually teaching stuff, but those things were very thought-provoking to me and changed the way I looked at things, you know, uh, especially the Pole and Hill stuff.
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:42.800
Yeah.
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:44.480
I'd say probably the most.
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:45.440
It's time.
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:48.239
Yeah, like you said at the beginning, if you ain't read it, you need to read it.
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:50.079
I I read it at least once a year, sometimes twice.
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:51.119
Oh, is that right?
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:51.679
Okay.
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:52.719
That's good.
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:57.360
Yeah, it's like uh that and It's a Wonderful Life is two things I have to do every year.
01:02:57.519 --> 01:03:05.519
I have to watch the movie It's a Wonderful Life with Jimmy Stewart at Christmas time, and I have to read uh uh They Could Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill.
01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:07.199
Yeah, by the Christmas tree.
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:08.159
Nice, I like it.
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:10.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:12.000
All right, very good.
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:14.079
Ken, I I really appreciate it.
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:15.519
How can get people get in touch with you?
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:16.800
How can they get in touch with Pilma?
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:18.239
How can they um learn more about you?
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:21.039
It's uh info at Pilma.org.
01:03:21.199 --> 01:03:24.639
That's P-I-L-M-M-A.org.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.800
Fantastic, Ken.
01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:28.320
That was an incredible conversation.
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.960
That's why I reached out to you because I love talking with you.
01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:31.599
I appreciate it.
01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:32.639
Thanks for your time.
01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:35.039
I know this is really good for the listeners, so thank you, buddy.
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:35.760
Appreciate you, man.
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:37.840
So that's it for this episode of the early show.
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:45.360
Be sure to check out more episodes of our show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Answering Legal YouTube channel.