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Hey, IT Changemakers, and welcome to The Dex Show with
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Tom McGraw. Let's get into it.
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It is beginning, everybody, to look a lot like experience.
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We are heading towards the world's greatest digital employee experience
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event at a rate of knots. If you didn't already know,
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it takes place October the 5th to the 7th at
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the JW Marriott Grand Lakes Hotel. in Orlando, Florida, this,
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and you probably heard me say this before. This is
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the first time experience only takes place in the USA.
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So if you're waiting for news on the London event, still,
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if you're waiting on the news for the German event, still,
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we next thing still do decks events in, in other
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countries around the world, but for experience for the real deal,
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you've got to, you've got to cross the pond. Uh,
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that's a note for my European friends. And of course,
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if you, if you're in the U S and you're
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yet to book your tickets, don't panic there are still
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some tickets left everybody and you will find a link
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to the show notes and in order to to whet
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our appetite even more it gives me great pleasure to
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to welcome a guest onto the show for the first
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time representing um an organization who are always just a
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fantastic phenomenal presence at experience they bring so much to
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every event um and always always uh They're always there
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in style, I would say, and that's Computer Center. And
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we're lucky enough to have Computer Center Solution Manager with us,
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Nina Kolhafke. How did I do with your name, Nina?
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Welcome to the show.
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You did so great. It's right, yeah. You did really,
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really great. Thank you, Tom.
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Thank you so much. And welcome. It's an absolute delight
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to have you on. Just begin, introduce yourself a little bit.
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Tell us about your role at Computer Center and the
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work you're most passionate about that it entails.
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Yeah. First of all, Good morning, Tom, and thank you
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for having me on the DAX show. I'm really excited.
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Excited for this podcast today and, of course, for the
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experience taking place in October because I'm going to be
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there as well. So, yeah, really excited. Good to have
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this talk today. Maybe to introduce myself. So, yes, I
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am a solution manager at Computer Center, or at least
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I have been recently. So for the last four years,
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I've spent time helping shape our digital experiences. portfolio, developing
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services around adoption and change management, future of work, digital
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employee experience, and workplace analytics. And actually, on September 1st,
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I'm starting a new role within Computer Center, of course,
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and I'm joining as an enablement lead in our European
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Technology Office. So I'm going to do lots of what
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I have done before, but also shaping our overall portfolio,
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and I hope with lots of good experience there as well.
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Outside of Computer Center, I am also, as you, a
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podcast host because together with my co-host, Anna-Maria Schwerber, I'm
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running a German podcast called Work It Out, where we
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speak with fascinating people about the future of work. And
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I think that what connects everything I do. In Germany,
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we have a saying that is Arbeitszeit ist Lebenszeit, which
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you can translate into work life or work time is
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lifetime life. Because we spend so much part of our
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lives at work. So my personal and professional mission is
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to help create workplaces where technology supports people instead of
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frustrating them. And where work feels more productive, human, and
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last but not least, human. And that's probably why topics
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like employee experience, tax, and adoption have always fascinated me.
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Because at the end of the day, it's all about
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the same question. How can we make work work better
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for people?
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That is a beautiful saying. I like that a lot.
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And yes, it sounds a lot like our podcast. I'm
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glad we don't have to compete in the same language.
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I'm sure you would fare extremely well if we did.
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But here's a question for you then, Nina. Predicate it
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on the podcast. And how long have you been running
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that podcast now, Work It Out?
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For a little bit over three years. So we started
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Work It Out during the COVID pandemic. Yeah.
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So it's very well established. And I'm curious, during that
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period of time, before we get into the technology itself,
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what are the biggest shifts you've seen in the world
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of work precluding tech to some degree that you're able to?
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Yeah.
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So I think the biggest shift I've seen since we've
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started that podcast, because it was during the COVID pandemic.
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In Germany, we say Corona, not COVID. Yeah.
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Yeah, it's funny. I forget that it was Corona for
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a while. I think the beer company managed to.
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I know.
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Everybody's phrasing of it.
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So since then, the world of work has been shaken.
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So everything kind of, at least for our knowledge workers,
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changed in the way we were used to it before.
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So I see the biggest shift around expectations, I guess.
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So people experience different ways of working, more flexibility, and
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work-life balance has become much more important now. And at
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the same time, I've seen a much stronger awareness around
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mental health and what I would call like healthy and
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sustainable performance, not just how much can I get done,
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but also like how can I perform well without burning
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myself out? So I think that is really important. But
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what I also find really interesting that just like recently
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we see kind of a backlash Especially over the last year,
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it feels like some of the old rules are coming back.
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So we're seeing stricter return to office mandates, more discussions
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around control and presence, and even models like part-time working
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being questioned again. And I think that has a lot
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to do with the pressure many companies are under right now.
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So we're dealing with multiple crisis, economic uncertainty, and an
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enormous cost pressure. So I do get where the desire
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for more control comes from. But at the same time,
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employee engagement is extremely low. So according to Gallup, only
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like 10% of employees are really highly emotionally engaged with
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their employer. And Gallup points out to some very basic
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things that are missing. Clarity around expectations, opportunities to develop
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and use your strengths, feeling valued and listened to. basically
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like the quality of everyday employee experience. So I think
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we are at a really interesting tipping point right now.
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So on the one hand, employees are asking for more autonomy, flexibility,
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and healthier ways of working, while many organizations are under
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pressure and moving back towards more control. So I think
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one of the biggest questions for me right now is
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how do we resolve that tension?
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Well, I'm going to ask you to answer your question
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because it's a fascinating one. How do we resolve our tension?
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You know, what do we do?
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Uh, if it would be that easy, I think we
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wouldn't have a job, but I think it would be, um,
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like a good bridge into decks and what we're talking
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about today, because, um, I think dealing with what do
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people actually want? How can they thrive? How can, how
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can they work? Well, it's something we have to solve.
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So, um, Okay, so it is, as you say, a
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great bridge into DEX. And I've been in the DEX
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space for around seven years. Throughout that time, Computer Center
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has been talking about digital employee experience very consistently. Looking back, however,
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how do you think your own understanding and Computer Center's
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own understanding of DEX has evolved during that period? And
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what's changed most in the conversation during the time that
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it's been so engaged with the topic?
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So to be honest, when I started working with DEX
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or even before that, when I just heard like DEX,
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maybe it was named like workplace analytics and maybe DEX
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was mainly seen as an analytics tool answering questions like
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how are my devices performing? Where are the technical issues?
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How can we reduce ticket volumes, lower costs and make
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IT more efficient? And yes, I still think those questions
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are super valid. But more and more when I talk
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to customers, they are asking different questions or additional questions
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at least. How satisfied are our employees with their digital workplace?
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Does the technology actually help them to do their job?
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And where is it creating friction? So I do have
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a current customer example that really shows that shift. It's
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a manufacturing company. And their business goal is to improve
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their time to market. So ultimately how to get their
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products to customers as fast as they can. And of course,
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IT knows they play a part in that. So the
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IT organization has set itself a really interesting goal. They
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say they want to turn their customers, so their internal customers,
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meaning their employees, into fans of IT. Because IT isn't
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always perceived as an enabler. Quite often it's perceived as
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something that maybe gets in the way. So this IT
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organization wants to understand their actual contribution of the digital
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workplace to their value creation. Where does technology help people
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move faster? Where does it slow them down? So, and
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then preventing getting product out faster and what do employees
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actually need and how ideally IT can solve problems before
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employees even experience them. So I often compare like DEX
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to healthcare. So you can go to a doctor and
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the doctor can tell you whether your heart rate is fine,
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but that doesn't necessarily mean you are healthy. And in
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the same way, a healthy device alone doesn't automatically mean
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that you have a healthy employee experience. And I think
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that helps to understand how people are actually experiencing work,
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not only just how the technology is performing. And I
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think that is the biggest shift in Dex to me.
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There's almost a paradox I'd like to explore if you're
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a little related to this you know which is that
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Dex has always been about putting employees at the center
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of technology decisions like that's been its defining ethos but
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and you just kind of alluded to this, Computer Center
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and others are increasingly approaching DEX less as just a
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technology category and more as an operating philosophy for the
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digital workplace at large. What does that represent in DEX itself?
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Is DEX growing up, would you say? Has the industry
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that we work in had to catch up with the
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very principles we've been promoting for so long?
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Yes, I would say yes for both questions. And to
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explain why it is that way, I'd like to come
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back to my healthcare analogy. Because I think in the past,
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IT operated a little bit like emergency medicine. So something broke,
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somebody raised a ticket, and IT stepped in to fix
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that issue. But today, with DEX, IT has the opportunity
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to become more like preventative healthcare. And I'm wearing an
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Aura Ring. Maybe you have kind of the same device
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as well, maybe a SWAT watch or something like that. So...
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Having this device is not about that this device tells me, oh, Nina,
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you are sick right now because I want this device
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to help me detect patterns, habits, lifestyle issues maybe, and
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to help me to understand why that might be not
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as healthy as I have supposed to and help me
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change my behavior and take action before bigger health issues occur.
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And I think like Dex could do the same to
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an organization. And that's also like a shift in thinking,
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you know, do something when it happens, do something before
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it happens. And so from moving from reacting to incidents
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to proactively designing healthier, more productive digital workplaces, this is
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what Dex is for me. And so Dex is becoming
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much more than just a technology category. Yes, my aura
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ring is the technology. But it's more around the whole ecosystem, environment, habits, culture,
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and so on and so on. So it's not only
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a technology category for me, it's looking at the whole
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system around the digital workplace for me. Because in the end,
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you can't improve the experience without changing the system behind it,
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like the technology, the processes, and also the culture, of course.
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And that is the reason why we developed also our,
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what we call DEX ops readiness model. It helps organization
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structure and scale DEX across five dimensions. So technology of
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course is one of them, but you also have to
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take into consideration and focus on people, processes, adoption, communication,
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and value creation because improving employee experience isn't only, as
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you said, a technology initiative, it's also an organizational capability. Hmm.
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And there's another paradox of sorts that just occurred to me,
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which is that, you know, we see this decline of
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its reaction against employee power to some degree. And yet
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we have seen corresponding in that same timeline, DEX only
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grow in significance and appeal and popularity. It's gone from
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a very niche talking point to a fairly ubiquitous one
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in most large organizations. What is making digital employee experience
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such a big strategic priority in 2026, despite perhaps the
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decline in employee experience centrality per se? Why is this
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resonating so strongly with business leaders today?
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I think right now, of course, cost efficiency is a
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big driver because particularly with increasing device and infrastructure costs,
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companies can't simply solve everyday experience problem by using or
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buying even more technology. So they need to understand where
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friction actually exists and where an investment will have the
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greatest impact. And I think another major reason is complexity
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because over the last four years, we have added more tools,
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more applications, more ways of working. And now AI comes
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on this on top, but more technology doesn't automatically make
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work better. So one of the big questions for businesses
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today is also how do we make this increasingly complex infrastructure, yes,
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and world of work actually work for people. And I
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think that also leads directly into productivity because I think
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the productivity discussion, especially around AI, is huge right now.
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So we talk a lot about doing more with less.
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But I think we underestimate how much productivity we are
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already losing through fragmentation and constant interruptions. So there's a study,
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I think it's from Microsoft, and they found out that
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employees are interrupted by a meeting, email or notification or
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just some friction within your workplace every two minutes during
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your regular workday. And I think that is huge. And
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that comes to the last piece, why it's such an
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important topic for IT leaders is technology adoption and ROI.
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So because I'm seeing also with AI and an interesting
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shift there. So in previous workplace or even though technology transformation,
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adoption was often something we had to push and to say,
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please do it, please consider it. Now with AI, I'm
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seeing almost the opposite. So customers are actively asking us
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how they can enable their employees faster, how can they
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improve adoption and how can they create the right experience
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around AI. So I think to sum that up, I
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think you can imagine how it's to drive a car
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with like a handbrake on. Do you know what happens?
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So you can still move maybe a little bit. I
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sure do.
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I'm afraid to say anything. Many times I've come quite
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far with a handbrake on, to be honest with you.
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But it takes you more effort, more energy, and more fuel.
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So it's much more effort you need to take for this.
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And I think a lot of workplace friction is exactly
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the same as well. And I think DEX can help
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us identify and remove those hidden handbrakes.
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Absolutely. So given those evolving digital workplace circumstances, which have
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been so congenial to the further growth of DEX as
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a category, how has Computer Center's own DEX offering evolved
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to meet those changing needs?
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So our DEX offering covers like the entire journey from
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inside to impact. Excuse me. So we help our customers
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to understand, first of all, how employee experience is right
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now in their digital workplace through analytics, employee insights. We
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can also help them with design improvements through deck strategy,
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user experience, and of course, adoption services, and then also
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help our customers to operationalize those improvements through our managed
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service capabilities. Because having the insight, yes, is good and
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one thing, but acting on it consistently is is another,
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so because customers don't want just another dashboard, it's good
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to have this insight, but they want to operationalize stacks,
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how to prioritize improvements and how to continuously improve the
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entire employee journey and employee experience over time. So, um,
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and I think we have, um, a good experience for,
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or like a good experience example for this. So imagine
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of an onboarding journey. So when you start. Um, at
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an organization for the first time, you often say like
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first impressions count. And I think the same is with
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the organization. So for a new employee, the onboarding experience
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is often like the really first real glimpse into that organization.
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And you don't want to disappoint as an organization. You
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want to make this first experience right. Um. But what
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happens if it's not that what you have expected? So
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you can use Dex for getting more insights to build
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a really great new starter experience program. And so we
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did that like through incident analysis, the organization. So we
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discovered like what new starters actually do when they step
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on their onboarding journey. And we identified like that new
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status generated like a disproportionately high number of IT incidents
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within the first three months. And many of those issues
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could have been prevented or resolved very early on and
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with the right guidance and support. So it's a journey
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and we can help customers like go on that journey
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and help them from inside to offer relationalization. Yeah. Absolutely.
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Measurement has always been central to Dex. but are the
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questions we need to be asking changing? Certainly they're evolving, right?
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So beyond traditional IT metrics, what do you think organizations
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need to be measuring today if they genuinely want to
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be improving employee experience? And are there examples where you've
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seen customers successfully connect purpose, measurement, and that kind of
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whole theme of continuous improvement you've been kind of returning
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to here?
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Mm-hmm. So... For a really long time, IT focused on
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traditional metrics such as uptime, device health, or ticket resolution times.
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And those metrics are still important, but they only tell
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us how systems are performing, coming back to my healthcare example.
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So yeah, you can have a good sleeping score, but
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is your sleep actually really good? That doesn't indicate that
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at a first glance. And I think that is the
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same with like those traditional metrics, because they are down
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telling us how employees are really experiencing work. Are they happy?
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Are they satisfied? Can they do the work they want
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to do it the way they wanted to do it?
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So that's why we're seeing a shift there. We're moving
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from SLAs to XLAs and more experienced orientated measures. So
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the question is no longer was the service available, for example,
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but rather were people able to do what they needed
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to do successfully and without unnecessary friction. And coming back
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to the onboarding example, what I really love about that
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example is that it connects purpose. You want to attract
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talent to your organization and you want to retain it.
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So it connects that purpose with measurement overall. You're seeing
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how are the devices running, how is the process and
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the workflows overall. And you combine it also with continuous
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improvement because the purpose was not to improve an IT
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metric itself. The purpose was to help employees feel welcome, productive,
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and confident from day one on. So measurement helped us
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identify where the friction occurred and continuously feedback allowed the
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organization to keep improving the onboarding journey over time, including
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sentiment-based feedback. You don't only look at IT metrics, you
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ask the people, you talk to them. And I think
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that is really important. When it's about people, you need
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to engage with them to really understand what they are experiencing.
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You already mentioned AI. We're going to get to it inevitably,
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of course. But before we think about AI and Dex specifically,
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I was able to see that on your podcast, you
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have explored AI through the lens of new work, right?
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Working styles rather than just as a technology trend. And
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a bit like my first question, you know, I'm interested
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in how do you see AI changing the nature of
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work itself?
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So what I think is interesting is that AI can
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lead us into two possible futures. So one option would
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be it can help us make the work we're doing
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right now faster and more efficient. Yes, we can do this.
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Or the second option would be it can help us
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unlock potential we haven't been able to access before. And
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I think that second future is much more interesting. And
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there is one thought. or like conversation from my podcast
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that really stayed with me. So we talked about the
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demographic shift we are facing right now. So people who
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have spent 20, 30 or 40 years in organization are
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now retiring. And with them, we are losing decades of
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knowledge and experience. And on the same time, right now,
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we have a second discussion, whether AI might automate some
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of the tasks that younger professionals traditionally learn from at
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the beginning of the start of their careers. So we
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are losing experience and knowledge on both ends, so at
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the entry level and at the exit level, so to say.
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And what I think what AI can do is like
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building bridges and like with the possibility of connecting those
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two challenges, because AI can help us preserve and make
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organizational knowledge more accessible, not just for the organization itself
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but also for the next generation so it is not
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replacing experience but it could help people benefit from the
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collective experience of those who came before them and i
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think that is what is really exciting about ai it's
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not helping us making things more simply or faster it
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really gives people capabilities they didn't have before.
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It um It not only sort of reflects your capacity,
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it also reflects your ambition, doesn't it? Do you know
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what I mean? As a tool.
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Yes, right. So it's not just, yes, you can have
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it just as a tool or as a capability, which
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just like what we call like the, like it can
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prolong your skills, what you haven't had before. So it
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can make you also better or like help organizations be
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better in that case. Yeah.
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And what do you think this means primarily for IT
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as a trend as it changes how people work? How
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is DEX best able to help IT maintain or strengthen
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its role as a strategic partner or leader in the business?
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Maybe just to step one step back. I think the
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first thing is AI shouldn't be received as just give
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employees the next tool. I would say start with the
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work itself. Talk to people and understand where are they
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struggling today? What is creating friction? And where could AI
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actually enable something that wasn't possible before? And I think
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combining that now with DAX can be incredibly valuable because
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it gives IT the data and the insight to understand
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how people are actually experiencing their digital workplace rather than
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just assuming it and assuming what your people need. And
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then the second part is enablement. You can't roll out
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an AI tool, offer one training session or a prompt
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library and expect people doing completely other work the next day.
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So if we really want people to use AI differently,
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we need to invest in proper change and enablement, helping
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them to understand where AI creates value in their specific
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role and how their way of working might change. And
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then we need to measure, of course, whether that is
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actually working. not just how many people are using the tool,
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but is it helping people to do work better? And
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is it creating value for the business? And so for me,
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DEX can help with both of this. So understanding workflows,
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work processes, work patterns, and also understanding the enablement journey itself.
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And if IT can do that with DEX, I would
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say that it doesn't just maintain their role as a
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strategic partner, it can also strengthen it.
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Absolutely agree. Finally, let's talk a little bit about experience directly.
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Are you going to be a first-timer experience?
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I'm going to be a first-timer, so it's going to
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be my first experience experience, yeah.
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Your first experience experience.
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Are you experienced?
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No, not yet, is the answer. What are you most
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looking forward to about the event? What are Computer Center
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going to be doing there more broadly? Who are you
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looking forward to talking to? Who are you excited to meet?
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Mm-hmm. So yeah, first of all, now that we are
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in our virtual podcast studio, I'm hoping to meet you
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there personally. So we're stepping out of our virtual podcast studio.
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And more broadly, I'm really excited to connect with all
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the people from across the DEX community. Colleagues from like
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computer center, of course, from the next thing, team partners,
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customers and practitioners from like different industries, because I think
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that is what is most important about the future of
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work and for DEX that we bring people together to
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jointly develop new solutions, have good discussions and see how
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we can learn from each other. And I think I
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truly believe that this collaboration helps us to shape a
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better future of work.
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And what European listeners shouldn't be thinking about getting some
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00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:28.450
October sun as well, Nina, right? I mean, you know,
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it's not the sunniest time of year, is it? You know,
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00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:34.029
it might be nice to get out to Orlando and
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Maybe take a little trip to Disney, maybe just relax
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by the pool for a day or two either side
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of the event. Just a suggestion, listeners. And if you
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do want to follow that suggestion up, be you in
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the US or in Europe or anywhere else in the
456
00:27:49.769 --> 00:27:52.799
world listening to this show, follow the links in the
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00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.619
show notes once again, where you will also find a
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00:27:55.660 --> 00:28:01.119
link to the fantastic podcast, New Work, by Nina, that
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all German-speaking listeners should certainly enjoy. think about subscribing to, right? Nina,
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it's been an absolute pleasure. We'd love to have you
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on again. And we look forward very much to meeting
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you out in Orlando in person.
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Thank you so much, Tom. And I'm really looking forward
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for the experience.
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That's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be back
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next week. And if you don't already, be sure to
467
00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:25.579
follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Until
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00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:26.119
next time.
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Hey, IT Changemakers, and welcome to The Dex Show with
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Tom McGraw. Let's get into it.
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It is beginning, everybody, to look a lot like experience.
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We are heading towards the world's greatest digital employee experience
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event at a rate of knots. If you didn't already know,
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it takes place October the 5th to the 7th at
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the JW Marriott Grand Lakes Hotel. in Orlando, Florida, this,
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and you probably heard me say this before. This is
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the first time experience only takes place in the USA.
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So if you're waiting for news on the London event, still,
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if you're waiting on the news for the German event, still,
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we next thing still do decks events in, in other
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countries around the world, but for experience for the real deal,
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you've got to, you've got to cross the pond. Uh,
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that's a note for my European friends. And of course,
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if you, if you're in the U S and you're
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yet to book your tickets, don't panic there are still
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some tickets left everybody and you will find a link
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to the show notes and in order to to whet
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our appetite even more it gives me great pleasure to
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to welcome a guest onto the show for the first
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time representing um an organization who are always just a
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fantastic phenomenal presence at experience they bring so much to
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every event um and always always uh They're always there
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in style, I would say, and that's Computer Center. And
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we're lucky enough to have Computer Center Solution Manager with us,
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Nina Kolhafke. How did I do with your name, Nina?
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Welcome to the show.
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You did so great. It's right, yeah. You did really,
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really great. Thank you, Tom.
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Thank you so much. And welcome. It's an absolute delight
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to have you on. Just begin, introduce yourself a little bit.
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Tell us about your role at Computer Center and the
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work you're most passionate about that it entails.
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Yeah. First of all, Good morning, Tom, and thank you
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for having me on the DAX show. I'm really excited.
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Excited for this podcast today and, of course, for the
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experience taking place in October because I'm going to be
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there as well. So, yeah, really excited. Good to have
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this talk today. Maybe to introduce myself. So, yes, I
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am a solution manager at Computer Center, or at least
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I have been recently. So for the last four years,
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I've spent time helping shape our digital experiences. portfolio, developing
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services around adoption and change management, future of work, digital
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employee experience, and workplace analytics. And actually, on September 1st,
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I'm starting a new role within Computer Center, of course,
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and I'm joining as an enablement lead in our European
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Technology Office. So I'm going to do lots of what
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I have done before, but also shaping our overall portfolio,
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and I hope with lots of good experience there as well.
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Outside of Computer Center, I am also, as you, a
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podcast host because together with my co-host, Anna-Maria Schwerber, I'm
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running a German podcast called Work It Out, where we
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speak with fascinating people about the future of work. And
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I think that what connects everything I do. In Germany,
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we have a saying that is Arbeitszeit ist Lebenszeit, which
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you can translate into work life or work time is
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lifetime life. Because we spend so much part of our
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lives at work. So my personal and professional mission is
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to help create workplaces where technology supports people instead of
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frustrating them. And where work feels more productive, human, and
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last but not least, human. And that's probably why topics
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like employee experience, tax, and adoption have always fascinated me.
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Because at the end of the day, it's all about
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the same question. How can we make work work better
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for people?
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That is a beautiful saying. I like that a lot.
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And yes, it sounds a lot like our podcast. I'm
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glad we don't have to compete in the same language.
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I'm sure you would fare extremely well if we did.
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But here's a question for you then, Nina. Predicate it
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on the podcast. And how long have you been running
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that podcast now, Work It Out?
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For a little bit over three years. So we started
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Work It Out during the COVID pandemic. Yeah.
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So it's very well established. And I'm curious, during that
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period of time, before we get into the technology itself,
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what are the biggest shifts you've seen in the world
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of work precluding tech to some degree that you're able to?
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Yeah.
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So I think the biggest shift I've seen since we've
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started that podcast, because it was during the COVID pandemic.
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In Germany, we say Corona, not COVID. Yeah.
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Yeah, it's funny. I forget that it was Corona for
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a while. I think the beer company managed to.
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I know.
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Everybody's phrasing of it.
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So since then, the world of work has been shaken.
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So everything kind of, at least for our knowledge workers,
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changed in the way we were used to it before.
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So I see the biggest shift around expectations, I guess.
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So people experience different ways of working, more flexibility, and
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work-life balance has become much more important now. And at
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the same time, I've seen a much stronger awareness around
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mental health and what I would call like healthy and
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sustainable performance, not just how much can I get done,
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but also like how can I perform well without burning
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myself out? So I think that is really important. But
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what I also find really interesting that just like recently
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we see kind of a backlash Especially over the last year,
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it feels like some of the old rules are coming back.
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So we're seeing stricter return to office mandates, more discussions
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around control and presence, and even models like part-time working
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being questioned again. And I think that has a lot
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to do with the pressure many companies are under right now.
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So we're dealing with multiple crisis, economic uncertainty, and an
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enormous cost pressure. So I do get where the desire
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for more control comes from. But at the same time,
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employee engagement is extremely low. So according to Gallup, only
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like 10% of employees are really highly emotionally engaged with
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their employer. And Gallup points out to some very basic
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things that are missing. Clarity around expectations, opportunities to develop
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and use your strengths, feeling valued and listened to. basically
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like the quality of everyday employee experience. So I think
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we are at a really interesting tipping point right now.
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So on the one hand, employees are asking for more autonomy, flexibility,
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and healthier ways of working, while many organizations are under
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pressure and moving back towards more control. So I think
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one of the biggest questions for me right now is
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how do we resolve that tension?
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Well, I'm going to ask you to answer your question
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because it's a fascinating one. How do we resolve our tension?
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You know, what do we do?
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Uh, if it would be that easy, I think we
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wouldn't have a job, but I think it would be, um,
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like a good bridge into decks and what we're talking
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about today, because, um, I think dealing with what do
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people actually want? How can they thrive? How can, how
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can they work? Well, it's something we have to solve.
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So, um, Okay, so it is, as you say, a
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great bridge into DEX. And I've been in the DEX
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space for around seven years. Throughout that time, Computer Center
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has been talking about digital employee experience very consistently. Looking back, however,
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how do you think your own understanding and Computer Center's
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own understanding of DEX has evolved during that period? And
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what's changed most in the conversation during the time that
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it's been so engaged with the topic?
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So to be honest, when I started working with DEX
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or even before that, when I just heard like DEX,
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maybe it was named like workplace analytics and maybe DEX
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was mainly seen as an analytics tool answering questions like
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how are my devices performing? Where are the technical issues?
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How can we reduce ticket volumes, lower costs and make
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IT more efficient? And yes, I still think those questions
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are super valid. But more and more when I talk
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to customers, they are asking different questions or additional questions
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at least. How satisfied are our employees with their digital workplace?
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Does the technology actually help them to do their job?
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And where is it creating friction? So I do have
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a current customer example that really shows that shift. It's
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a manufacturing company. And their business goal is to improve
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their time to market. So ultimately how to get their
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products to customers as fast as they can. And of course,
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IT knows they play a part in that. So the
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IT organization has set itself a really interesting goal. They
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say they want to turn their customers, so their internal customers,
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meaning their employees, into fans of IT. Because IT isn't
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always perceived as an enabler. Quite often it's perceived as
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something that maybe gets in the way. So this IT
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organization wants to understand their actual contribution of the digital
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workplace to their value creation. Where does technology help people
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move faster? Where does it slow them down? So, and
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then preventing getting product out faster and what do employees
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actually need and how ideally IT can solve problems before
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employees even experience them. So I often compare like DEX
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to healthcare. So you can go to a doctor and
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the doctor can tell you whether your heart rate is fine,
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but that doesn't necessarily mean you are healthy. And in
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the same way, a healthy device alone doesn't automatically mean
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that you have a healthy employee experience. And I think
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that helps to understand how people are actually experiencing work,
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not only just how the technology is performing. And I
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think that is the biggest shift in Dex to me.
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There's almost a paradox I'd like to explore if you're
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a little related to this you know which is that
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Dex has always been about putting employees at the center
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of technology decisions like that's been its defining ethos but
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and you just kind of alluded to this, Computer Center
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and others are increasingly approaching DEX less as just a
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technology category and more as an operating philosophy for the
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digital workplace at large. What does that represent in DEX itself?
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Is DEX growing up, would you say? Has the industry
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that we work in had to catch up with the
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very principles we've been promoting for so long?
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Yes, I would say yes for both questions. And to
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explain why it is that way, I'd like to come
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back to my healthcare analogy. Because I think in the past,
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IT operated a little bit like emergency medicine. So something broke,
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somebody raised a ticket, and IT stepped in to fix
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that issue. But today, with DEX, IT has the opportunity
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to become more like preventative healthcare. And I'm wearing an
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Aura Ring. Maybe you have kind of the same device
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as well, maybe a SWAT watch or something like that. So...
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Having this device is not about that this device tells me, oh, Nina,
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you are sick right now because I want this device
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to help me detect patterns, habits, lifestyle issues maybe, and
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to help me to understand why that might be not
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as healthy as I have supposed to and help me
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change my behavior and take action before bigger health issues occur.
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And I think like Dex could do the same to
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an organization. And that's also like a shift in thinking,
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you know, do something when it happens, do something before
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it happens. And so from moving from reacting to incidents
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to proactively designing healthier, more productive digital workplaces, this is
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what Dex is for me. And so Dex is becoming
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much more than just a technology category. Yes, my aura
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ring is the technology. But it's more around the whole ecosystem, environment, habits, culture,
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and so on and so on. So it's not only
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a technology category for me, it's looking at the whole
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system around the digital workplace for me. Because in the end,
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you can't improve the experience without changing the system behind it,
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like the technology, the processes, and also the culture, of course.
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And that is the reason why we developed also our,
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what we call DEX ops readiness model. It helps organization
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structure and scale DEX across five dimensions. So technology of
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course is one of them, but you also have to
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take into consideration and focus on people, processes, adoption, communication,
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and value creation because improving employee experience isn't only, as
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you said, a technology initiative, it's also an organizational capability. Hmm.
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And there's another paradox of sorts that just occurred to me,
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which is that, you know, we see this decline of
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its reaction against employee power to some degree. And yet
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we have seen corresponding in that same timeline, DEX only
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grow in significance and appeal and popularity. It's gone from
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a very niche talking point to a fairly ubiquitous one
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in most large organizations. What is making digital employee experience
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such a big strategic priority in 2026, despite perhaps the
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decline in employee experience centrality per se? Why is this
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resonating so strongly with business leaders today?
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I think right now, of course, cost efficiency is a
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big driver because particularly with increasing device and infrastructure costs,
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companies can't simply solve everyday experience problem by using or
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buying even more technology. So they need to understand where
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friction actually exists and where an investment will have the
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greatest impact. And I think another major reason is complexity
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because over the last four years, we have added more tools,
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more applications, more ways of working. And now AI comes
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on this on top, but more technology doesn't automatically make
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work better. So one of the big questions for businesses
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today is also how do we make this increasingly complex infrastructure, yes,
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and world of work actually work for people. And I
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think that also leads directly into productivity because I think
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the productivity discussion, especially around AI, is huge right now.
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So we talk a lot about doing more with less.
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But I think we underestimate how much productivity we are
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already losing through fragmentation and constant interruptions. So there's a study,
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I think it's from Microsoft, and they found out that
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employees are interrupted by a meeting, email or notification or
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just some friction within your workplace every two minutes during
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your regular workday. And I think that is huge. And
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that comes to the last piece, why it's such an
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important topic for IT leaders is technology adoption and ROI.
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So because I'm seeing also with AI and an interesting
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shift there. So in previous workplace or even though technology transformation,
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adoption was often something we had to push and to say,
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please do it, please consider it. Now with AI, I'm
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seeing almost the opposite. So customers are actively asking us
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how they can enable their employees faster, how can they
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improve adoption and how can they create the right experience
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around AI. So I think to sum that up, I
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think you can imagine how it's to drive a car
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with like a handbrake on. Do you know what happens?
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So you can still move maybe a little bit. I
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sure do.
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I'm afraid to say anything. Many times I've come quite
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far with a handbrake on, to be honest with you.
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But it takes you more effort, more energy, and more fuel.
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So it's much more effort you need to take for this.
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And I think a lot of workplace friction is exactly
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the same as well. And I think DEX can help
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us identify and remove those hidden handbrakes.
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Absolutely. So given those evolving digital workplace circumstances, which have
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been so congenial to the further growth of DEX as
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a category, how has Computer Center's own DEX offering evolved
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to meet those changing needs?
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So our DEX offering covers like the entire journey from
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inside to impact. Excuse me. So we help our customers
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to understand, first of all, how employee experience is right
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now in their digital workplace through analytics, employee insights. We
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can also help them with design improvements through deck strategy,
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user experience, and of course, adoption services, and then also
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help our customers to operationalize those improvements through our managed
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service capabilities. Because having the insight, yes, is good and
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one thing, but acting on it consistently is is another,
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so because customers don't want just another dashboard, it's good
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to have this insight, but they want to operationalize stacks,
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how to prioritize improvements and how to continuously improve the
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entire employee journey and employee experience over time. So, um,
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and I think we have, um, a good experience for,
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or like a good experience example for this. So imagine
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of an onboarding journey. So when you start. Um, at
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an organization for the first time, you often say like
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first impressions count. And I think the same is with
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the organization. So for a new employee, the onboarding experience
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is often like the really first real glimpse into that organization.
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And you don't want to disappoint as an organization. You
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want to make this first experience right. Um. But what
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happens if it's not that what you have expected? So
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you can use Dex for getting more insights to build
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a really great new starter experience program. And so we
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did that like through incident analysis, the organization. So we
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discovered like what new starters actually do when they step
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on their onboarding journey. And we identified like that new
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status generated like a disproportionately high number of IT incidents
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within the first three months. And many of those issues
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could have been prevented or resolved very early on and
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with the right guidance and support. So it's a journey
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and we can help customers like go on that journey
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and help them from inside to offer relationalization. Yeah. Absolutely.
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Measurement has always been central to Dex. but are the
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questions we need to be asking changing? Certainly they're evolving, right?
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So beyond traditional IT metrics, what do you think organizations
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need to be measuring today if they genuinely want to
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be improving employee experience? And are there examples where you've
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seen customers successfully connect purpose, measurement, and that kind of
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whole theme of continuous improvement you've been kind of returning
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to here?
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Mm-hmm. So... For a really long time, IT focused on
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traditional metrics such as uptime, device health, or ticket resolution times.
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And those metrics are still important, but they only tell
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us how systems are performing, coming back to my healthcare example.
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So yeah, you can have a good sleeping score, but
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is your sleep actually really good? That doesn't indicate that
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at a first glance. And I think that is the
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same with like those traditional metrics, because they are down
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telling us how employees are really experiencing work. Are they happy?
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Are they satisfied? Can they do the work they want
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to do it the way they wanted to do it?
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So that's why we're seeing a shift there. We're moving
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from SLAs to XLAs and more experienced orientated measures. So
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the question is no longer was the service available, for example,
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but rather were people able to do what they needed
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to do successfully and without unnecessary friction. And coming back
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to the onboarding example, what I really love about that
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example is that it connects purpose. You want to attract
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talent to your organization and you want to retain it.
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So it connects that purpose with measurement overall. You're seeing
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how are the devices running, how is the process and
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the workflows overall. And you combine it also with continuous
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improvement because the purpose was not to improve an IT
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metric itself. The purpose was to help employees feel welcome, productive,
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and confident from day one on. So measurement helped us
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identify where the friction occurred and continuously feedback allowed the
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organization to keep improving the onboarding journey over time, including
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sentiment-based feedback. You don't only look at IT metrics, you
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ask the people, you talk to them. And I think
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that is really important. When it's about people, you need
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to engage with them to really understand what they are experiencing.
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You already mentioned AI. We're going to get to it inevitably,
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of course. But before we think about AI and Dex specifically,
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I was able to see that on your podcast, you
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have explored AI through the lens of new work, right?
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Working styles rather than just as a technology trend. And
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a bit like my first question, you know, I'm interested
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in how do you see AI changing the nature of
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work itself?
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So what I think is interesting is that AI can
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lead us into two possible futures. So one option would
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be it can help us make the work we're doing
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right now faster and more efficient. Yes, we can do this.
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Or the second option would be it can help us
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unlock potential we haven't been able to access before. And
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I think that second future is much more interesting. And
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there is one thought. or like conversation from my podcast
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that really stayed with me. So we talked about the
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demographic shift we are facing right now. So people who
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have spent 20, 30 or 40 years in organization are
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now retiring. And with them, we are losing decades of
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knowledge and experience. And on the same time, right now,
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we have a second discussion, whether AI might automate some
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of the tasks that younger professionals traditionally learn from at
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the beginning of the start of their careers. So we
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are losing experience and knowledge on both ends, so at
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the entry level and at the exit level, so to say.
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And what I think what AI can do is like
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building bridges and like with the possibility of connecting those
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two challenges, because AI can help us preserve and make
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organizational knowledge more accessible, not just for the organization itself
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but also for the next generation so it is not
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replacing experience but it could help people benefit from the
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collective experience of those who came before them and i
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think that is what is really exciting about ai it's
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not helping us making things more simply or faster it
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really gives people capabilities they didn't have before.
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It um It not only sort of reflects your capacity,
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it also reflects your ambition, doesn't it? Do you know
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what I mean? As a tool.
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Yes, right. So it's not just, yes, you can have
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it just as a tool or as a capability, which
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just like what we call like the, like it can
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prolong your skills, what you haven't had before. So it
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can make you also better or like help organizations be
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better in that case. Yeah.
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And what do you think this means primarily for IT
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as a trend as it changes how people work? How
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is DEX best able to help IT maintain or strengthen
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its role as a strategic partner or leader in the business?
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Maybe just to step one step back. I think the
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first thing is AI shouldn't be received as just give
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employees the next tool. I would say start with the
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work itself. Talk to people and understand where are they
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struggling today? What is creating friction? And where could AI
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actually enable something that wasn't possible before? And I think
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combining that now with DAX can be incredibly valuable because
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it gives IT the data and the insight to understand
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how people are actually experiencing their digital workplace rather than
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just assuming it and assuming what your people need. And
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then the second part is enablement. You can't roll out
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an AI tool, offer one training session or a prompt
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library and expect people doing completely other work the next day.
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So if we really want people to use AI differently,
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we need to invest in proper change and enablement, helping
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them to understand where AI creates value in their specific
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role and how their way of working might change. And
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then we need to measure, of course, whether that is
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actually working. not just how many people are using the tool,
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but is it helping people to do work better? And
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is it creating value for the business? And so for me,
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DEX can help with both of this. So understanding workflows,
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work processes, work patterns, and also understanding the enablement journey itself.
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And if IT can do that with DEX, I would
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say that it doesn't just maintain their role as a
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strategic partner, it can also strengthen it.
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Absolutely agree. Finally, let's talk a little bit about experience directly.
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Are you going to be a first-timer experience?
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I'm going to be a first-timer, so it's going to
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be my first experience experience, yeah.
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Your first experience experience.
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Are you experienced?
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No, not yet, is the answer. What are you most
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looking forward to about the event? What are Computer Center
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going to be doing there more broadly? Who are you
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looking forward to talking to? Who are you excited to meet?
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Mm-hmm. So yeah, first of all, now that we are
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in our virtual podcast studio, I'm hoping to meet you
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there personally. So we're stepping out of our virtual podcast studio.
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And more broadly, I'm really excited to connect with all
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the people from across the DEX community. Colleagues from like
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computer center, of course, from the next thing, team partners,
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customers and practitioners from like different industries, because I think
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that is what is most important about the future of
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work and for DEX that we bring people together to
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jointly develop new solutions, have good discussions and see how
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we can learn from each other. And I think I
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truly believe that this collaboration helps us to shape a
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better future of work.
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And what European listeners shouldn't be thinking about getting some
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00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:28.450
October sun as well, Nina, right? I mean, you know,
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00:27:28.849 --> 00:27:31.769
it's not the sunniest time of year, is it? You know,
450
00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:34.029
it might be nice to get out to Orlando and
451
00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:39.029
Maybe take a little trip to Disney, maybe just relax
452
00:27:39.069 --> 00:27:41.109
by the pool for a day or two either side
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of the event. Just a suggestion, listeners. And if you
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do want to follow that suggestion up, be you in
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00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:49.750
the US or in Europe or anywhere else in the
456
00:27:49.769 --> 00:27:52.799
world listening to this show, follow the links in the
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00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.619
show notes once again, where you will also find a
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00:27:55.660 --> 00:28:01.119
link to the fantastic podcast, New Work, by Nina, that
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00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:05.930
all German-speaking listeners should certainly enjoy. think about subscribing to, right? Nina,
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00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:07.789
it's been an absolute pleasure. We'd love to have you
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00:28:07.829 --> 00:28:09.690
on again. And we look forward very much to meeting
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you out in Orlando in person.
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Thank you so much, Tom. And I'm really looking forward
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for the experience.
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That's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be back
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next week. And if you don't already, be sure to
467
00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:25.579
follow the show so you don't miss an episode. Until
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00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:26.119
next time.
