WEBVTT
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:07.599
Hey, good morning, everybody.
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:12.560
Sorry for the slight delay due to technical difficulties, but here we are.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:23.760
Welcome to the Customer Driven Leader Podcast, where we explore the critical impact that leaders have in creating and sustaining winning cultures that positively impact customer experiences.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:24.640
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.000
James Killian, and I'd like to thank you for being with us.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:33.200
And I'd like to thank the XM Global Collaborative for sponsoring this really great event.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.240
I'm super excited to introduce my next guest.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:38.640
In this episode, we have uh Dr.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.119
Benjamin Grange, not Granger.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:47.039
That's really important because he's going to be very famous soon with his uh new book coming out.
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.600
He's author of A Leader Worth Following.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.159
And he currently serves as chief workplace psychologist at Qualtrics.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.479
He's a former colleague of mine of many years.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:12.319
His research has been published and featured in major academia and media outlets like ABC News, Business Insider, Bloomberg, CNBC, Fast Company, Fortune, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and he's a really kick-ass guy and a really good friend, too.
00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.599
So, Ben, welcome to the show.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:14.480
Good to have you on.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:16.879
Great to be with you, brother.
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.680
It's been really exciting to me to watch your journey.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:28.000
You know, you've always been well known, kind of semi-famous, and now you're you're really just getting out there.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:32.319
And we definitely want to talk about the book here in a little bit.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:39.280
But both of us actually have been working on pieces, my own book as well.
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:45.439
And I thought it was really humorous that just recently both of us back to back were on Dr.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.640
Gary David's podcast experience by design.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:56.239
He was very, very excited that he had two Iopsychologists as his guests back to back consecutively.
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.239
So that was going to talk about the book here in just a minute.
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:08.639
But Ben, you know, we talked about how, um, and you've seen some of the episodes here, how I have bookends and I start and finish the same way with every guest.
00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.479
And so the first question that I'm going to ask you is the one I ask everybody.
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.360
A leader, team, or company is customer driven when what?
00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:19.439
Can you please finish that sentence?
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:25.199
When they really behave in a way that's consistent with their values.
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:34.400
And I would I say that because it's true that not every organization has a value of being customer driven explicitly.
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:44.479
In fact, I was just on a con I had a conversation with a business consultant yesterday who said he had a client in Germany who one of their core values is profit.
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.199
That's the first time I've ever heard that as a core value.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.400
I don't think that's part of the tacos framework for Qualters.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:56.159
No, I don't think so.
00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:12.240
No, but but I do think if you look at 99% of the values that organizations that I work with at least have, there's always something about the customer in it or the way that the customer should be treated.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:20.800
And uh I think that where a lot of companies fall short is in the way that they go about their business.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.719
Sometimes it's consistent with that value, and sometimes it's not.
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:26.240
It's just window dressing.
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.240
So I think that to me is the simplest answer.
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.400
Yeah, I love that response.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.400
Uh concise and to the point and uh spot on as well.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:44.000
I, you know, it's you can throw out any cliche that you want here, really, but you know, you you gotta walk the talk.
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:44.479
Right.
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:57.039
And and I I know that um, and as practitioners of experience management, you and I have both been fortunate to work with organizations that really do live those values and they believe in them deeply.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:05.439
And you can see it in the behaviors of the senior most leaders, the mid-managers, the frontline managers, and the associates.
00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:18.560
And then we've also seen the very opposite, which is a great idea, maybe at the top, but there's a lack of execution and follow-through with the extension of the brand to the customer and exactly.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:20.319
Exactly.
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.319
And a lack of ownership or accountability.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:23.680
And I think you're right, James.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.480
It's a lot of times that shows up at the top.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:42.879
Um, one one thing I would also add is as a consultant, having worked with many cut uh companies, and I'm curious your thoughts here too, James, because I know you've been in the same position, but one of the things I really appreciate observing is internal communication norms.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.680
How do people at multiple levels within an organization communicate with each other?
00:04:47.920 --> 00:05:05.040
To me, you know, I don't have data on this, but anecdotally, there's a strong correlation there between how senior leaders and people many levels below them communicate with each other and how they actually show up for their customers at the end.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:06.240
So I think you're right on that.
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:12.639
It's it's really what I like to look at is it's are those values being lived at the top of the house?
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:21.439
And that's going to create an environment that either allows people or encourages people to do the same with each other and with their customers or not.
00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.319
Yeah, agreed.
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:41.920
And uh I think that um this is one of the things that that I really stress in in my model um is how there's never been more stress or pressure on leaders to deliver short-term results than in today's business environment.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:47.519
Uh, and part of what I've incorporated in there is uh some of the work by um Dr.
00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:53.759
Robert Hogan of Hogan Assessment Systems, and he talks about personality derailers, right?
00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:01.199
And essentially the the concept is behavioral change is easy under normal conditions, right?
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:08.240
When the heat isn't on, you can say, here's how we're going to act for our customer.
00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:18.000
But when the pressure is on, the tendency to backslide or derail into you know customer avoidant behaviors is definitely present.
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:25.199
Um curious if you've seen any any market trends that that support um that kind of behavioral issue.
00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:27.600
Yes, um, we have.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:35.199
And remind me to make sure I I touch on that in the market trends, but I fully agree with this.
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:44.399
And my my study has been more on the cognitive psychology side, less on the personality, but it jives with what Dr.
00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:59.279
Hogan would say, in that one of the things I did a lot of reading on and study on is the the dual system of the mind, of the human mind, and that sometimes you know it was classically presented as system one and system two.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:04.000
It's like, thanks for the descriptive uh names there, psychologists.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.319
And this is why Mark and Very colorful, very colorful.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.160
Right, very sexy.
00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:18.560
Uh so when they uh thankfully others came after and said, Okay, let's call system one the automatic system, let's call system two the reflective system.
00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:19.759
Very useful.
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:28.720
Daniel Kahneman Amos Traversky, you know, if you follow any of their work back in the 70s and the 80s, very much in this in this vein.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:42.480
But it it's it's similar what you're saying, James, in that when what we do know about the two systems of the mind is that this the reflective system is powered by the more advanced parts of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, for example.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:47.199
The automatic system is the more primitive part of the brain.
00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.040
Both are important though.
00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:57.680
And so, like, for example, like per tying it back to personality, people's personalities are not either good or bad.
00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.399
It's how they show up with those personalities and learn to work with those behavioral tendencies.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.439
Same thing with the system one, system two.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:14.319
System one's not bad just because it's primitive, it operates the way it does precisely because it helped humans evolve over time.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:26.160
And so, but one of the challenges is that when we are faced with lots of uncertainty, constant change, and that change is accelerating, and we're feeling the pressure.
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:39.600
And as I think you correctly pointed out, business leaders find themselves with so much pressure to deliver in the short term that people in those environments are more likely to rely on the automatic system.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:46.000
Ironically, those are the times when we need to engage the higher order parts of our brains.
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.320
So I think it's very similar to what you're saying on the personality side.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.919
And I bet that somewhere in the neurological, this is beyond me, right?
00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:05.519
I'm not a neuroscientist, but I bet that there's some interconnection between those personality derailers and our likelihood to default to the automatic system.
00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:07.679
I I think you're absolutely right.
00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:15.120
I maybe we could coin a phrase, something along the line of um the lizard brain doesn't win the long game.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:16.960
Oh how about that?
00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:18.000
I just came up with that.
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.159
We're we're gonna trademark that and uh we're gonna take it on a roadshop.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.159
That's gold.
00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:25.840
You can you just came up with that.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:28.320
That's me, man.
00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:30.720
I like that.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:32.480
Well, let's do this.
00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:38.320
I I because I like to bring in some some some personal pieces into the the discussion as well.
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:44.879
Because, you know, yes, you and I are academics and we're practitioners and we're speakers and authors on these things.
00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:55.519
Um, but but there's always something personal that we've felt that's influenced or impacted how we think about what we research and study and talk about.
00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:13.200
Do you have a good example of a bad experience that you've suffered as a customer yourself, or or maybe uh that you've witnessed one of your customers or clients have to deal with that really shaped how you thinking about how you're thinking about experience management?
00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:25.120
So this isn't like a horrible experience, but it's it's just so perfect from the work that you and I have done for a long time, James.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.879
I think you're gonna like this one.
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:29.279
Um I was in the market.
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.519
All right, so let me start with a little context.
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:42.240
So in my job, and my jobs I've had at Qualtrics, a lot of my work has been on how to help organizations measure employee and consumer experience.
00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:50.559
And one of the things I feel really strongly about is a lot of companies make the mistake of score chasing, right?
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:56.399
When they have their employee measures and their consumer measures, it's all about that number, it's about the hard numbers.
00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.480
We got to achieve an NPS of this amount, and we're below the benchmark.
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.480
How do we get that number up?
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.879
And so a lot of times, and very similar to like in baseball with saber metrics and money ball, right?
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:14.399
You you want to you maximize those metrics, and that's not a bad, you know.
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.720
Look, I I have no problem with data-driven decisions or data-driven companies.
00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:19.759
I like those.
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:31.360
But the problem in experience metrics, as you know, is that there's not a one-to-one connection between the rating a consumer gives or an employee gives and what they actually feel.
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.399
There's a there's a there's a chasm, right?
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:54.639
So when we're asking a question of a consumer, we're basically asking them about think back in your memory bank about your interactions with the company, make a judgment about those, and then map that judgment to a response that's usually on a one to five scale or on a zero to ten scale.
00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:55.039
Right.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:56.960
So you lose a lot of information.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:03.279
Um and yet it's still predictive, as as you know, it's still predictive, which is amazing.
00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:04.480
Okay.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:18.720
So in those companies that care about the score, what inevitably happens is there are pressures that are put on people to encourage people to respond in a certain way.
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:19.279
Okay.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.879
There's the context for this story, right?
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.360
So this is I think I know where you're going with this.
00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:26.960
For the watcher, right?
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.600
This is what I do for a living, right?
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:42.320
So, okay, a couple years ago, I'm out buying a vehicle and I decided on a truck, and just so happens that this dealership, the franchisee, is a customer.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.559
So I know I know what I know what's going on behind the scenes.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:48.080
They don't know that, of course.
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.080
The sales team doesn't know this.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:13:01.120
So I'm decide on the vehicle, I'm getting ready to drive this thing off the lot, and the sales rep comes in and says, Oh, Ben, one more thing before you leave.
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:08.000
And he goes inside and he comes out and he brings a packet, like a literal packet, probably 12-page packet of paper.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:08.399
Okay.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:17.360
And he says, Before you leave, you're gonna you're gonna get a survey in about a week about your experience here at the dealership.
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:28.159
And I want to walk through item by item to make sure that you'll give us a five out of five on all of them, because we don't accept anything less than a five.
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.480
And I just had a good old chuckle.
00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.080
I just literally start laughing.
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.279
I was like, man, you have no idea who you're talking to.
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.480
Yeah, we we've all experienced that, you know.
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:45.200
You know, um, you have to give me a nine or ten out of this scale, or I fail.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:45.759
Right.
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:46.559
Right.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.000
Like, please don't make it impact my family.
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:51.519
I have to feed my babies.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.639
So, so this is actually a really important point.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:56.000
Um, you know Dr.
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:57.759
Shauna Waters well.
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:25.360
Um she and I are actually working on a piece right now on the problems that we run into with goal setting when you put the practice of goal setting, which is one of the most well-supported practices in organizational psychology and human motivation, and you plop it into a large messy organization, and it doesn't surprise, surprise, it doesn't work exactly the way it does in the controlled settings, right?
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:26.639
Yeah, sure, right?
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:43.840
But but one of the things we we point out in this piece is when you tie goals to existential threats, my job's on the line, or you would you have people sandbag, right?
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.480
People protect themselves first, and it's not because they're bad.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:15:04.000
I had this this this really wacky interaction one time with a very senior executive at a uh um auto manufacturer, and we were meeting and we were talking about this gaming the system, you know, how do we make sure the reps don't game the system?
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:11.679
And this guy looked at me crudges like I was in moron, and he said, Oh, we don't hire people like that.
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:13.600
That would never happen here.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.360
We don't hire people like that.
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.200
Hold on a second, hold on a second.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.559
Firstly, how do you control for that in your hiring?
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:36.960
Two, are you saying that everybody you hire is so solid in their behavior that they're impervious to the impacts of the environment and the people you hire don't change over time?
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:38.879
That's essentially amazing.
00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.320
How did this guy do it, Ben?
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.679
It's incredible, it's inexplicable, James.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:45.519
So it's nonsensical.
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.519
Human beings adapt to their environment.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:58.639
And when you tie an existential threat, my pay, my livelihood, my job, to a goal like NPS or CSAT, what are people gonna do?
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.600
They're going to figure out how to protect themselves.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.519
And it's not because they're bad people, it's because they're in a shit environment.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:06.159
Yeah.
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.320
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:08.639
Right.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:09.360
Exactly.
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.159
I um you know, it's it's really interesting.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.000
You're talking about the score chasing.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:23.519
Um, one of the folks I I interviewed for my book was um Professor Rob Markey, um, who's one of the co-creators of the Net Promoter Score.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.720
And and I don't know if you've interacted with him, but he's a really like calm, relaxed guy.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:35.519
And he's like, you know, James, the Net Promoter Score was never intended to be a vanity metric.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.000
It was intended to be part of a system.
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:40.240
And God bless it.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:41.840
Right, right.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.919
And and um, and yeah, the whole score chasing, and you and I have been combating that for a very long time.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:55.600
And and I think um advancing on the beach head and and pushing it back a little bit, but but it is complex.
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:56.720
It it is a challenge.
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:10.880
It is, you know, it is um I I thought that was really interesting about the um about the um the protecting of the the existential protection that you're talking about, because I'm curious if you've seen this.
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.880
I I I certainly am.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.119
We can all agree that there's a lot of really cool stuff happening right now.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.160
There's also a lot of fear in the job market.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:26.319
And one of the phenomenons that it's created is something um that's being referred to as job hugging.
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:37.039
And, you know, if you're talking about the goal setting, which I think is a fascinating point to bring up, um, particularly with all the disruption going.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:42.720
I mean, how fast do you have to change those goals to adapt to what's going on?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:18:03.200
But one of the things with this job hugging that I think is really um bothering me a good bit for want of a better description, is that we all know that in order for organizations to really become customer driven, which means you have to be advancing on behalf of the customer, right?
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:13.920
You have to actually be innovating on things that the customer in many cases didn't even know they should be thinking about until you've actually helped lead them down that path.
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:18.480
In order to do that, you have to make big, bold moves.
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.000
I think we can agree on that.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.119
I mean, at Qualtrics, we used to call them big bets, right?
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:34.640
Um, I don't think individuals, teams, or leaders are making those big bets the way that they used to right now because they're afraid of rocking the boat.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.920
They're afraid of missing their number, they're afraid of losing their job.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.279
Curious if you've seen that or you've if you have a perspective on that.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:42.960
You know, Dr.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:51.759
Shauna told a great true example of a person, a business leader, a very senior business leader.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.359
She was coaching.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:01.119
And the story goes, he was looking at setting his basically his uh profit growth target for the year.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.119
I think it was profit growth, margin growth.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.519
Don't quote me on that, but it was a big target for the company.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.400
And he was aiming for something in the realm of I think it was like 51%.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.200
Like he was going big, he wanted to swing big.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:30.240
And once he started playing around with it and he started realizing how his pay was going to be tied to it, how his family's livelihood was going to be tied to it, he eventually came down to 28%.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.599
So he cut it almost in half.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.960
Now let's go to goal setting theory for a minute.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:46.400
I mean, you and I both know the the generally speaking, all things being equal, the more aggressive your goal, the better your performance.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.079
With some caveats, right?
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:50.400
You you don't want to push people to extremes.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:20:03.200
But when you come down that far, what it what it is reflective of is the current environment, which is and it's like you said, don't hate the player, hate the game.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:14.000
There's a lot of things I'm concerned about also with the way that the game's being played right now, because to me it seems to be uh very short-term focused.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:14.400
Yeah.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:23.680
I think you look at the I often think of the sort of like a pendulum swinging over time of who has the leverage.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:28.400
Is it the market, the street, the senior leadership, or is it talent?
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.240
And that swings back and forth.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.960
Right now we're in a period of organizations have a quite a bit more leverage.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:50.160
Um, but um it also reminds me of you know some of the thought leaders just about 10 years ago when we were like knee deep in this space, they would say, you know, the war for talent's over and talent won.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:51.599
Right.
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.839
Well, that hasn't aged well.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:55.839
It hasn't aged well.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:04.559
Now, I do think that's gonna come back at some point, but it's not gonna come back until we experience a great deal of pain because that's human nature, right?
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:11.440
We have to really stub our toe and break our leg before we realize don't walk up that mountain, let's gotta go back.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.559
But uh, I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.039
We're seeing it in our broader research too.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:26.799
You had asked this question earlier, I forgot to answer, but the broader consumer trends research that we do, and the employee trends research that we do, we're seeing a lot of symptoms of this.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:34.000
We we we're noticing that you know, three-quarters of the global workforce are experiencing a significant amount of change.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.200
By the way, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:47.839
Um, we saw this interesting finding this year, James, where we went out to almost 34,000 global employees across 24 countries, five continents, all major industries.
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:49.599
We are asking them about change.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.559
Now, I was joking with Marcus Wolfe, who you know well.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:52.960
Sure.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.200
Yeah.
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.720
Uh he was my co one of my co researchers on this, Matt Evans.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.920
We were working on this together.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:58.319
Sure.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
And uh when we were going in.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.240
The study setting um ad hoc hypotheses, by the way.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.480
We thought, hey, all right, people who experience more change are going to be worse off psychologically.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:13.680
If we would have bet money, we would have lost.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.119
Not the case, huh?
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:16.160
Yeah, no.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.599
What we saw was very consistent with the Yerkes-Dotson law.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:27.920
So essentially what we saw was this sort of inverted U relationship when you track the amount of change people experience on the x-axis.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:35.920
So, in other words, the people who were the worst off psychologically were the people who experienced the least amount of change over the last year.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.119
Fascinating.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:45.519
People who experienced an extreme amount of change, they were they also wasn't great, but it was the people in the middle who, yeah, I've experienced a lot.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:47.599
Yeah, I've experienced a significant amount.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.839
They were the best off psychologically.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:58.799
We also saw a symptom here, too, of that strongly correlate with the amount of pressure people were feeling too in their jobs.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.400
So they're feeling the squeeze.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.920
Again, wasn't necessarily inherently bad, but it was the type of change in pressure that made a difference.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:23.680
And so, for example, we saw uh disruptive org changes like uh leadership churn, riffs and re-orgs had a you saw, you know, naturally people did not respond well in those environments.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:39.200
That's to be expected, but changes to the ways of working, changes to technology, AI, um, even RTO policies actually had a positive uh relation to job attitudes.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:44.240
People were more engaged, people were felt more higher well-being, which is kind of interesting.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:50.160
So it kind of led us to a preliminary conclusion that you know, change in itself isn't the enemy.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:24:02.240
And in fact, if the world is evolving and changing, which I think we all would agree with, and we're sitting there in our organization and we're stagnant while everybody else is moving, that's not a good place to be.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:09.759
And so there's a there's a Goldilocks zone where employees and consumers need to feel the progress.
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:14.720
Um, it's kind of like flying at 300, you know, 500 miles an hour at cruising speed.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.240
You don't feel like you're moving, right?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.240
Einstein's theory of relativity.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.440
You feel it when you feel the acceleration when you're taking off.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:26.160
But when you're going the same speed as everybody else, you're moving in the right direction.
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.519
And that that actually equates to better psychological outcomes.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.039
That's fascinating, Ben.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:39.599
So, um, so what's the implication then for practitioners of experience management and particularly employee experience here?
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:49.039
Is it to shape and create the right experiences that eliminate the extremes so that everybody kind of gets into the you in the middle?
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:50.400
Or what are your thoughts on that?
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:56.000
I think that that's one, but um, that's hard to, you know, it is hard to operationalize that.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.480
It's like, okay, well, what does that exactly mean?
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.119
So I think there's a few sub things in there.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:08.000
One is engaging in ongoing conversation, and one of my favorite points, you know, you you know this, James.
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:21.119
So during hectic times, these are often times when companies like pause their consumer employee listening programs, you know, and adjusting the dumbest thing in the world.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:22.240
Exactly.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:32.480
But come on, allow me to um kind of interpret that in a in a benevolent way.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.160
Uh during COVID, this happened a lot, right?
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:50.880
With the the shit hit the fan, things were changing, it was it was chaotic, and a lot of leaders justified the decision to pause those things because it was like, hey, our goal is to get our employees at home equipped to work safely.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.279
Our job, uh that's our main priority.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.119
And and I'm here saying, amen.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:56.960
You know, that is a great goal.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.200
That that should be your number one goal.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:10.319
So if you think of those things as, oh, we're just serving our customers, we're just serving our employees, it's easy then to frame it as we don't have time for that extraneous activity.
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.920
I think it's so important that we reframe that.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.240
We're not just running surveys.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:22.240
This is a listening, listening programs that allow us to stay connected and have conversation.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:29.839
And during times of change and disruption, those are the times when you need to talk more, not less.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:31.359
You don't say.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:32.319
Right.
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.680
But when you frame it that way, everybody says, well, of course.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:37.119
So I think it is important.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.440
It goes back to your point earlier, James, about the leadership mindset at the top of the house.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.279
What do they see this as?
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.279
Um, is it a is it a way that we can have conversation?
00:26:47.519 --> 00:27:00.400
So getting off of the survey thing, during those times of change when people are bombarded with it, finding that Goldilocks on employees, acknowledging it's not going to be the same for every individual.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.400
But you have to talk about that.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:04.559
You have to have ongoing conversation.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:11.119
That can take the form of one-on-ones, that can take the form of team meetings, increase your communication.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:22.000
The other thing I would always also advise leaders during these times, especially when you're going through really disruptive like rifts and acquisitions and mergers, when people really feel the pressure.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:23.519
Actually, I'll give two.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.240
These and these I talk about in the book.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
Um, one, maintain grounded optimism.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:38.000
Um, I love the Stockdale paradox as laid out by Jim Collins and good to great, but yeah, it's like, hey, you don't want to be overly Pollyannish.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:39.359
Oh, it's it's gonna be fine.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.599
After we get through this part, it's gonna be great.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.799
Bullshit.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.960
Everybody's gonna see through that, right?
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.039
No, it's not gonna be all great.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:56.799
It's gonna be rough, and you have to be willing to face the brutal reality of the state you're in, but you have to have grounded optimism that we will get through this period together.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.960
Yeah, and one of the ways to do that, go back to goal setting.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:11.599
You take those big audacious goals that you're now putting on people, because a lot of times after those disruptive changes, people are feeling like they're being asked to do more than they were yesterday.
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.519
And that can be bad if it's unmanaged.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:21.119
But one way you can kind of manage it is to break those big audacious goals into small ones.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.680
And then as you make progress, celebrate those publicly.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:28.799
And so that helps people feeling like their work matters.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:41.200
It helps people feeling like they're contributing to the organization's goals, it helps to infuse some positive emotions, which are highly contagious, and they can combat some of the negative emotions that inevitably show up.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:42.240
Oh, yeah.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:44.000
And um, I I agree with that.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.480
And and there's a really great book uh by Steve Magnus called Do Hard Things.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:58.000
Um, I'm a big fan of this, and um and um even our our triathlete coach um you know borrows from some of that.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:12.480
And I remember she said once that, you know, after a big long, hard training camp over a long weekend, she said, All right, you know, we rode 300 miles and we ran, you know, 50 miles, and we hiked 18 miles, and we did strength training.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:23.839
We did, and and she says, uh, here's the thing, you know, mate, she's Australian, when you do hard things, the habits you had yesterday become smaller and more easily manageable.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:25.519
And right.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:32.799
I mean, and what you're saying, I I think is really important because you're you're also um a recovering endurance athlete, right?
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.200
Yes.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:30:00.640
And if you you can take that and apply it to your work, if you take the ultimate goal and compartmentalize it into manageable bite-sized chunks, and you're creating winning habits on a daily basis, which is largely what my work is about, all of a sudden that big, scary, hairy, audacious goal, it's just uh doing a thing that you get into the habit of doing on a daily basis, and you have a compounding effect over time.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.079
And that can do great things for the psyche, right?
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:32.720
Um, but I, you know, it but then you take the the flip side of that and you get into the command and control stage, and you you were talking about the pandemic, and I I remember um I was still at Qualtrics at the time with you, and there was a major um beverage company, and they paused their employee listening program, and we're really trying to counsel them not to do that.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:43.440
And the response was, well, we know what kind of scores that we're going to get, and that would impact you know our quarterly bonuses.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:45.920
So we're not gonna ask that right now.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:55.599
So bringing it full circle back to score chasing and creating poor habits, um, and that's a function of culture, and that's a function of leadership for sure.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:56.960
Completely agree.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:02.640
And you know, I saw some good just to balance that too, as we saw a lot of the same things, James.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:08.720
I've also seen some really courageous companies um and some courageous leaders.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:19.680
One that really sticks in my mind was I was in Thailand for a global operation summit with a um global restaurant, quick serve restaurant chain.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:38.480
And I remember the head of their Asia Pacific region got up and boldly in front of his peers, fellow COOs and franchisees, said, Here's all the negative scores we got from our consumers, and this is a celebration.
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:42.799
And I'm sitting there like, oh, I like where this is going.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:52.559
But his point was our customers trust us enough, our associates aren't out there gaming the system, so that's a good sign.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.279
And now we have honest feedback from our consumers to where we know what to do.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:14.319
Not a day later did the COO of the Ireland um um uh British region come up and and celebrate negative scores they got from their associates for the same reasons, and so it's a reframing, it's not about the scores.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:20.880
The goal should be to make the scores reflect what's actually in people's minds.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:31.519
Because when those scores do reflect what's in people's minds, honesty, that means your data's worth something, and now you can do cool stuff with it.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:43.920
But if you insert incentives and you put existential threats in between that, that's right, the distance between what's actually in people's minds and the scores widens, and now your data's not worth shit.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:46.720
Totally agree.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:54.640
Uh and um I I want to get to your book here in just a second, but before we we go there, I kind of to put a bow on this.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:16.640
One of the things that um that I'm pieces of data that I'm getting from practitioners, from thought leaders, from experts, and experience management, both on the employee experience and the customer experience side, one of the trends that they're saying is that a lot of the programs out there right now are in some state of failure.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.279
Um do you see that?
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.039
Uh, do you agree with that?
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:27.279
And and what are some observations that you've got um and what should we be doing about it?
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:38.400
We're we're actually right in the middle of a very large research project, both qualitative and quantitative, on the future of the field of experience management.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:45.519
And we're trying to project out what's going to change about the roles of XM professionals.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:52.640
And a lot of that has been very illuminating and I think offers us a potential answer to this question.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.000
Um, very curious if it jives with what you've been hearing.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:03.759
But I think one of the failure modes or the reasons why we see these in failure is the siloed nature of these programs.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:12.159
Um, oftentimes customer experience is very, very far removed from the employee experience.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:21.280
Worse even, those programs and teams are far removed from the business and what the business objectives are.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:31.280
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've just asked the question of an EX practitioner or a CX practitioner, hey, how does your company make money?
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.119
And they have no clue.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:34.000
They have no clue.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:35.199
They have no idea.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:37.280
That's a problem.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:54.000
So it is good that organizations have experts in listening and analysis, but I think we have to realize that those capabilities are becoming commoditized.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:35:00.159
You know, that knowledge, that deep knowledge and expertise is becoming commoditized with AI.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.880
Um, will we need like deep experts in survey design in five years?
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:08.400
Uh I don't know.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.760
I mean, I'm kind of it's getting pretty good pretty fast.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:12.880
Right.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:17.599
Like I don't want to say no, but I also I'm not confident to say yeah, you know.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:24.559
So, but but one thing we have seen over and over and over in our interviews, it was ubiquitous.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:32.719
Both business leaders and XM professionals was the real successful programs are connected.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:37.039
The EX professional knows who their counterpart is on the CX side.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.000
And you'd be surprised.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:44.800
I mean, maybe you wouldn't, James, but I think sometimes our little maybe your listeners might be surprised how often those people don't know each other.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.159
Like James, how often were you the matchmaker?
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:50.559
Oh, oh yes.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:36:02.800
Well, I I'll even go a step further if I can insert something real quick because I um I I won't say who, but but it's it's it's one of the major athletic wear producers in Portland.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.039
You can figure out you know which one.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:14.239
Um, but I I remember this meeting with uh about 30 of the HR team um there globally.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:22.800
Um and it became very apparent as I was introducing myself to all these people that none of these people had met one another.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:38.400
And so the the person who handled the onboarding survey had never met or talked to the person who did the exit survey, and those people had never met or talked to the person who did the engagement survey, and nobody talked to the 360 because that was the leadership development person way over there, right?
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.880
And nobody had talked to the training because that's learning and development, that's a different program.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:54.079
And so just the fact that either virtually or physically, none of these people who, yes, okay, were accountable for different swim lanes, but they were also in the same pool.
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.519
Same pool.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:17.760
And that was that was a real I my gosh, I had been doing this work for goodness at the time, probably you know, 17, 18 years, and that was the first time that I had seen something like that, and it really shifted how I think about running meetings and and working with clients because of that.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.280
It's like, hey, does everybody here actually know one another?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:25.280
Does everybody here actually know what each other is accountable for?
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:34.880
But to your point, I think that um yes, the days of quote unquote doing an engagement survey, they're gone.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:35.599
Yeah.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.679
Yeah, I think so too.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.880
And um, and you know, back to your question, I mean, that's a great example.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.960
It's unfortunate, but it's a great example of exactly what I'm what I'm talking about.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:38:00.320
I think that is that is absolutely one of the reasons these programs are are failing, is because they're siloed, they're they're disconnected from what really matters to the business, back to the values we talked about earlier.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.880
And and look, let's get real for a minute.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:10.880
Those met those metrics around margin growth, profit growth, customer logo growth, those are important.
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:11.679
Absolutely.
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:20.239
I don't think we should myopically focus on that and just just focus, we have to focus on the things that drive it and and the levers to pull.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:27.440
But if we don't even know what those are and we can't articulate that, then what are we doing?
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:33.119
And that's where I think you are more likely to find an obsession with the numbers.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:48.320
You know, there's uh it's not a perfect relationship, but I'd bet that the more siloed the program is, the more myopically focused on the score versus no, we're we're not focused on the score, we're focused on the behavior.
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:57.119
We're focused on the attitudes because we know that those behaviors and attitudes ladder up to these business metrics that we're driving toward.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.320
And I can articulate that as an XM professional.
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:10.880
And I have a relationship with my CFO or my CIO or my CTO or my CX or EX uh practitioner.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:23.280
So, in short, we do believe, firmly believe, that in the very near future, and I'd say start now, um, build relationships across the aisle.
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:33.679
Ask questions, understand what other people's objectives are, start to form a bigger image in your mind of where your work fits in with that.
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:41.760
That's gonna help you contextualize because again, we're gonna have technologies come in who can do a lot of the work we used to do, like that.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.239
So our job has to change.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:49.920
And we're our part of that change might be contextualizing and being a good business partner.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:51.920
I think that's right.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:57.440
And and and business partner um, I think is absolutely critical there.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:18.000
I mean, in in today's world, uh if you look at decision making, um, much of decision making these days that impacts the HR side of things, you really have to involve the office of the CIO because so much of that is now technology related, and certainly with advances in AI, right?
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:25.679
But also important to reach across the aisle and talk to the office of the CFO, like how much money are we spending?
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.800
How much is this costing?
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.440
What kind of return are we expecting to get on it?
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:43.039
Those are still, um, particularly on the EX side of the house, uh, those are still um approaches or avenues that that really are are um not pursued with the vigor that they should be.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:43.679
I agree.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:50.480
Um just because you know HR has has for a very long time um struggled to prove its value.
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:58.159
And so tying that um financial, the fiscal responsibility, the fiduciary uh responsibility, I think is just really, really important.
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:05.360
So well, let's let's let's let's put a put a pen in that one and let's shift over to some fun stuff.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:07.679
Tell us about your book.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.599
How did you get started on it?
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:11.519
Like, like what is it about?
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:13.440
Like, I can't wait to to read it.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:15.199
I haven't I haven't gotten my copy yet.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:16.079
Are you still owe me that?
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:16.960
It's on the way.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.280
It's on the way I shipped it last week.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.719
Um, I think I gotta double check on pretty sure I did.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:28.639
So um this started, I think I started the project about four and a half years ago.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.119
Goodness.
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.360
And uh James, you'll you'll remember this.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.360
I think you'll resonate with this well.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:45.360
What what had basically happened was I started doing a lot of work with uh different reporters, different media outlets, and I was representing a lot of our research that we would that we do.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:57.119
And basically our head of PR said, hey, it would really benefit everybody if we elevated your title so that we could you know open more doors and things like that.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.840
So they came up with this phenomenal job title of chief workplace psychologist.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.360
So at the time I was like, Yeah, don't I don't know what that means, but sign me up, you know.
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.440
Still the same guy I was yesterday.
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:10.639
Still the same guy.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:23.119
But and and actually that's that's an important point too, because as you know, uh folks like yourself, we're surrounded by incredible psychologists and behavior science.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:33.440
I mean, we had we have and had just a critical mass of extreme talent on the on that side, I think you would agree.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.159
Yes.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:43.599
So I had a moment of imposter phenomenon, you know, where I'm like, you know, do I but do I deserve this?
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.960
So I decided I was like, you know what, I gotta earn it.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:53.199
And I went just on an absolute tear through the literature on books.
00:42:53.280 --> 00:43:00.719
I started in our field of organizational psychology, but I allowed myself the freedom to take it where it needed to go.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:09.440
And so that got me into leadership because a lot of our work, I mean, my overall, and I talk about this at the beginning of the book.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.199
I had no intention of being a leadership guy, right?
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.880
It's a leadership book, but I had no intention of that, never.
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.440
I actually didn't intend to write a book either.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.079
Um, when I started this project, I was just studying, I was just learning.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.480
And so, but that took me to leadership.
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:33.360
Leadership took me to evolutionary psychology, evolutionary psychology took me to biology and anthropology.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:37.599
That took me to astrophysics and quantum physics.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.519
That within that was neuro, a little touch on neuroscience.
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:44.880
So I just allowed myself the freedom to go where I needed to go.
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.440
And so as I was reading, I was also writing.
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.800
I had hundreds and hundreds of notes on my iPhone, James.
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:52.800
So I started organizing them.
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.599
And then one day I'm sitting there in church.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:59.440
Um you know, sometimes you get that little nudge.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.559
And I've learned over time that when when I've when I'm in a good state and I get a nudge, go with it.
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.440
When I'm not in a good state and I get a nudge, ignore it.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.239
So at that point I was in a very good state.
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:13.840
Um and I was like, okay.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.920
And I got that nudge to write a book.
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:24.559
I was like, I could put this stuff together, all these observations I'm making, and shared with other leaders who are struggling with the same things I'm struggling with.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:29.039
And then not two, three days later, I got hit up by a major publisher.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.079
And so you just can't make you can't make this stuff up.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.400
So they reached out and said, Hey, we read something you wrote, you know, whatever.
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:39.840
Would you be interested in partnering on a book on a similar topic?
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:43.679
And I said, Well, it just so happens I kind of just decided to write one and have a lot of notes.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.199
So from that point on, that was about two and a half years ago.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.760
That's when I actually decided to write the book.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:03.119
And uh really what it's about is um all this learning that I did through my own personal experience, through the research we've done together at Qualtrics, through the outside reading I've done in these all these different fields.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:09.199
And it's looking at the current state and saying, we are in this crazy, highly unpredictable environment.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.679
The pace of change is going to accelerate.
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:15.440
We uh we have to understand ourselves better.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.840
Leaders must understand themselves better, how they show up matters, the environments they create.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:30.079
And so, really, it's a very, it's both a deep, gets very deep, goes into evolutionary history, looks at why we do the weird things we do.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.880
We talk about the systems of the mind that we mentioned earlier, but it's also a very practical book.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:46.000
And so in every chapter, I leave the reader with some very practical tips on how they can better themselves as a leader and show up better for both employees and customers.
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:47.519
I love that.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:58.559
Um so much synergy there um with you know my interests and passions and um uh out of private message that we have between us, which I thought was really funny.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:04.480
Uh, you made a joke that uh we ought to go on a dual book tour called a customer-driven leader worth following.
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.360
I thought that was really not a bad idea.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.719
It's still not a bad idea.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.639
There's definitely some synergies there.
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:14.559
I um so I love the practical application.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:16.079
I'm a big fan of that as well.
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:39.760
I mean, I there's many years ago there was a uh a research paper that was published, I th I think it was through um Academy uh I can't remember, it doesn't matter, but but basically it showed that it took five years for an empirical journal article to actually be you know published in a reputable uh you know publication that was peer-reviewed.
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.159
Uh it was Academy of Management, that's what it was.
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:56.880
And um, you know, and you think like how much shit comes out about leadership in that same five-year window that has absolutely no, you know, solid, sound theoretical basis a whole lot.
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:58.159
So it's it's good.
00:46:58.559 --> 00:46:59.599
It's a crowded space.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:00.559
Yeah, it is.
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:01.199
It is.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.039
Um there is no barrier to entry, that is for sure.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:21.599
And that's why I love the fact that somebody like you who's got the academic chops and the practitioner chops and you know has worked in the trenches bringing this practical application in addition to, you know, some of the academic and theoretical background.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:32.960
If I were to to put you on the spot and say, you know, what are maybe two or three big takeaways that that you think that people would really be interested in in getting from this, what what would those be?
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:37.280
One of the biggest surprises I found on my journey, my learning journey.
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:49.039
And I also think is a has incredibly important practical applications, is when in history did uh humans learn to talk and listen to each other?
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:59.840
So I sort of took it for granted as a primal experience we all share that surely humans have always been able to communicate with words, but that's not true at all.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:13.119
And so uh would what this is disputed, but most of the estimates that I was able to find were uh human speech developed about somewhere between 100 to 200,000 years ago.
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:24.480
Now, for most listeners, that's gonna sound like a long time, but consider this yes, that is a long time for people who think in terms of days, months, uh, years, decades.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:26.639
Yeah, that's a long time.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:37.119
But if you zoom out and you look at it from a cosmic perspective, uh it's like uh we learned to talk yesterday and we learned to write an hour ago.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:44.880
Because humans have been, mankind has been communicating nonverbally for many millions of years.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:49.199
Yeah, and so this really got me rethinking.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:49:04.719
Oh, well, no wonder there's so much angst among people about poor communication in an organization, which is very, yeah, I think generally very low fidelity emails, text messages, social media.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:09.760
Um, that's low fidelity communication now that now that I view it that way.
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:12.960
And so that's where we're when a lot of what I talk about.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:22.800
I have a whole chapter on chapter four about how to create ongoing dialogue, how to upgrade your written communication, how to upgrade your verbal communication.
00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:29.840
There's the second big takeaway related to that, but it also has some other implications, is the importance of body language.
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.559
So, as you and I know, we and we have another colleague we've worked with for a long time, was also a geek in body language, Dr.
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:37.280
Brakovich.
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:38.159
Leo Brakovich.
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:38.800
Oh, yes.
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:40.400
But uh Leo.
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.760
Yeah, he's a great guy, super sharp, um, fellow body language nerd.
00:49:46.079 --> 00:50:02.559
And that I think is a place where we really need to better understand how our body language, when we're having a conversation with somebody, when we're shaking hands with somebody, when we're uh trying to console an employee, when we're talking to an irate customer, matters a lot.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:10.960
And we have to bring our unconscious tendencies, because uh for most of us, our body language flows unconsciously.
00:50:11.199 --> 00:50:14.400
It just we we just naturally do it.
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:24.800
But I think that's a place where we need to bring that unconscious up to the level of our reflective system, the higher order parts of our brain, where we can make a conscious decision about how to show up.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.280
Quick tips here you're having a one-on-one with an employee, don't cross your arms.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:35.679
You're having a one-on-one with an employee about a performance conversation, don't sit across a desk from them.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:41.599
You know, you're in a customer meeting, sit side by side with them, not across the table if you can.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.440
You know, so those sorts of things, removing physical barriers.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:53.519
When you shake somebody's hand, you know, watch out for those people who come in and they give you a big old over-the-hander and a slap on the back, right?
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:55.280
That communicates something.
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:56.960
Don't do that for one.
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:07.119
Yeah, but how do you control yourself to make sure that your unconscious brain doesn't take over and make you small because you're not gonna notice that, but it's likely to happen.
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.679
So a lot of practical tips there.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.039
Um, a lot more, but I think those are a couple of big ones.
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:14.159
I love that.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:17.440
You know, again, the lizard brain doesn't win the long game, right?
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:18.559
I love that long.
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:22.400
I'm telling you, we need a placard or a banner or something.
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.599
So um, well, Ben, we're we're gonna land the plane here.
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.079
Um, really appreciate you being on.
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:30.800
Um, as always, it's just great to interact with you.
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:33.039
Just you're a treasure trove of information and insight.
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:34.400
Right back at you, brother.
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:35.519
Really appreciate that.
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:40.719
So, so um the other side of the book end is what I call two things.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:45.360
And that is could be in the form of stop starts or continues, if you will.
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:57.760
But one thing you'd recommend to organizations out there that they could start doing to improve their experience management programs, and one thing to maybe stop doing uh in order to improve their experience management programs.
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:03.840
Yeah, start, I would say go find your counterparts, meet them, know who they are.
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:04.719
Do that today.
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:12.559
Like go find out who the person is on the employer, the customer, start a relationship with those people.
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:28.400
Second sub tip there once you get to know them, find out what matters to them, what they're held accountable to, and then think what do I have in my back pocket that I can help you and just offer the proactive gift.
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:37.679
That is it's a magical how to kick start a virtuous risk reciprocal cycle with that and build a really good relationship.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:38.719
Love that.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.880
Love that and stop score chasing, stop score chasing.
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:44.880
I think we've beaten that one down.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:54.639
Um, Ben, I I know you've got um a few different um like your website for your book, and obviously uh you know, some other avenues here.
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:56.800
How can people best get in touch with you?
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.400
Yeah, best place to go would be benjamengranger.com.
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:04.079
I said it's easy, but uh James, you're right on as Granger.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:05.280
But uh it's easy.
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.639
Benjamin Granger, like HermioneGranger.com.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:10.880
And uh quick quick things on there.
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:16.559
I got I gotta brag a little bit uh because I'm just beyond blown away by this.
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.159
Um I hit two national bestseller lists last week.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:26.719
So I hit the USA Today top 15, and I hit the AP top 15.
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.599
Um, I'm just beyond excited about that.
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:31.119
Publishers week, I should say.
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:42.239
As am I, and I you know, I know it was uh what a couple of weeks ago you and I were talking, and you said, I can't say anything about it yet, but I I feel like you know the book's actually gonna be pretty big.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:48.320
And and to see that announcement from you on LinkedIn um really warmed my heart.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:49.440
I uh you know, thank you.
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.639
You are deserving of this, so so please take it.
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:56.960
You put in the hard work, and um, I'm excited to see where this goes for you.
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:58.559
And I'm excited to read the book too.
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:02.639
So I can't wait to hear one one quick if you could spare 30 more seconds.
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:09.360
On the website, I also have a companion playlist, uh, songs that inspired me as I wrote each chapter.
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:11.199
I have a broken down by the chapter.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:24.880
So it's a little bit of a scavenger hunt to see if you can spot the connection between the song and what's being talked about in the chapter, but it's also a memory aid, too, so that next time you go and you hear that song, you'll remember our conversation.
00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:25.920
I love it.
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:26.400
Dr.
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:31.679
Benjamin Granger, thank you for being on, and thank you everybody for being with us.
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:33.599
We'll go ahead and sign off now.
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:34.719
Everybody take care.
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:35.679
Thanks, Ben.
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:07.599
Hey, good morning, everybody.
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:12.560
Sorry for the slight delay due to technical difficulties, but here we are.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:23.760
Welcome to the Customer Driven Leader Podcast, where we explore the critical impact that leaders have in creating and sustaining winning cultures that positively impact customer experiences.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:24.640
I'm your host, Dr.
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:28.000
James Killian, and I'd like to thank you for being with us.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:33.200
And I'd like to thank the XM Global Collaborative for sponsoring this really great event.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.240
I'm super excited to introduce my next guest.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:38.640
In this episode, we have uh Dr.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:41.119
Benjamin Grange, not Granger.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:47.039
That's really important because he's going to be very famous soon with his uh new book coming out.
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.600
He's author of A Leader Worth Following.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.159
And he currently serves as chief workplace psychologist at Qualtrics.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.479
He's a former colleague of mine of many years.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:12.319
His research has been published and featured in major academia and media outlets like ABC News, Business Insider, Bloomberg, CNBC, Fast Company, Fortune, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and he's a really kick-ass guy and a really good friend, too.
00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.599
So, Ben, welcome to the show.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:14.480
Good to have you on.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:16.879
Great to be with you, brother.
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.680
It's been really exciting to me to watch your journey.
00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:28.000
You know, you've always been well known, kind of semi-famous, and now you're you're really just getting out there.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:32.319
And we definitely want to talk about the book here in a little bit.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:39.280
But both of us actually have been working on pieces, my own book as well.
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:45.439
And I thought it was really humorous that just recently both of us back to back were on Dr.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.640
Gary David's podcast experience by design.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:56.239
He was very, very excited that he had two Iopsychologists as his guests back to back consecutively.
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.239
So that was going to talk about the book here in just a minute.
00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:08.639
But Ben, you know, we talked about how, um, and you've seen some of the episodes here, how I have bookends and I start and finish the same way with every guest.
00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.479
And so the first question that I'm going to ask you is the one I ask everybody.
00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.360
A leader, team, or company is customer driven when what?
00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:19.439
Can you please finish that sentence?
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:25.199
When they really behave in a way that's consistent with their values.
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:34.400
And I would I say that because it's true that not every organization has a value of being customer driven explicitly.
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:44.479
In fact, I was just on a con I had a conversation with a business consultant yesterday who said he had a client in Germany who one of their core values is profit.
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.199
That's the first time I've ever heard that as a core value.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.400
I don't think that's part of the tacos framework for Qualters.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:56.159
No, I don't think so.
00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:12.240
No, but but I do think if you look at 99% of the values that organizations that I work with at least have, there's always something about the customer in it or the way that the customer should be treated.
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:20.800
And uh I think that where a lot of companies fall short is in the way that they go about their business.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.719
Sometimes it's consistent with that value, and sometimes it's not.
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:26.240
It's just window dressing.
00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.240
So I think that to me is the simplest answer.
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.400
Yeah, I love that response.
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.400
Uh concise and to the point and uh spot on as well.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:44.000
I, you know, it's you can throw out any cliche that you want here, really, but you know, you you gotta walk the talk.
00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:44.479
Right.
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:57.039
And and I I know that um, and as practitioners of experience management, you and I have both been fortunate to work with organizations that really do live those values and they believe in them deeply.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:05.439
And you can see it in the behaviors of the senior most leaders, the mid-managers, the frontline managers, and the associates.
00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:18.560
And then we've also seen the very opposite, which is a great idea, maybe at the top, but there's a lack of execution and follow-through with the extension of the brand to the customer and exactly.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:20.319
Exactly.
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.319
And a lack of ownership or accountability.
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:23.680
And I think you're right, James.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.480
It's a lot of times that shows up at the top.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:42.879
Um, one one thing I would also add is as a consultant, having worked with many cut uh companies, and I'm curious your thoughts here too, James, because I know you've been in the same position, but one of the things I really appreciate observing is internal communication norms.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:47.680
How do people at multiple levels within an organization communicate with each other?
00:04:47.920 --> 00:05:05.040
To me, you know, I don't have data on this, but anecdotally, there's a strong correlation there between how senior leaders and people many levels below them communicate with each other and how they actually show up for their customers at the end.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:06.240
So I think you're right on that.
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:12.639
It's it's really what I like to look at is it's are those values being lived at the top of the house?
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:21.439
And that's going to create an environment that either allows people or encourages people to do the same with each other and with their customers or not.
00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.319
Yeah, agreed.
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:41.920
And uh I think that um this is one of the things that that I really stress in in my model um is how there's never been more stress or pressure on leaders to deliver short-term results than in today's business environment.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:47.519
Uh, and part of what I've incorporated in there is uh some of the work by um Dr.
00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:53.759
Robert Hogan of Hogan Assessment Systems, and he talks about personality derailers, right?
00:05:54.399 --> 00:06:01.199
And essentially the the concept is behavioral change is easy under normal conditions, right?
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:08.240
When the heat isn't on, you can say, here's how we're going to act for our customer.
00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:18.000
But when the pressure is on, the tendency to backslide or derail into you know customer avoidant behaviors is definitely present.
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:25.199
Um curious if you've seen any any market trends that that support um that kind of behavioral issue.
00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:27.600
Yes, um, we have.
00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:35.199
And remind me to make sure I I touch on that in the market trends, but I fully agree with this.
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:44.399
And my my study has been more on the cognitive psychology side, less on the personality, but it jives with what Dr.
00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:59.279
Hogan would say, in that one of the things I did a lot of reading on and study on is the the dual system of the mind, of the human mind, and that sometimes you know it was classically presented as system one and system two.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:04.000
It's like, thanks for the descriptive uh names there, psychologists.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.319
And this is why Mark and Very colorful, very colorful.
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.160
Right, very sexy.
00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:18.560
Uh so when they uh thankfully others came after and said, Okay, let's call system one the automatic system, let's call system two the reflective system.
00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:19.759
Very useful.
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:28.720
Daniel Kahneman Amos Traversky, you know, if you follow any of their work back in the 70s and the 80s, very much in this in this vein.
00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:42.480
But it it's it's similar what you're saying, James, in that when what we do know about the two systems of the mind is that this the reflective system is powered by the more advanced parts of our brain, the prefrontal cortex, for example.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:47.199
The automatic system is the more primitive part of the brain.
00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.040
Both are important though.
00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:57.680
And so, like, for example, like per tying it back to personality, people's personalities are not either good or bad.
00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.399
It's how they show up with those personalities and learn to work with those behavioral tendencies.
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.439
Same thing with the system one, system two.
00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:14.319
System one's not bad just because it's primitive, it operates the way it does precisely because it helped humans evolve over time.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:26.160
And so, but one of the challenges is that when we are faced with lots of uncertainty, constant change, and that change is accelerating, and we're feeling the pressure.
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:39.600
And as I think you correctly pointed out, business leaders find themselves with so much pressure to deliver in the short term that people in those environments are more likely to rely on the automatic system.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:46.000
Ironically, those are the times when we need to engage the higher order parts of our brains.
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.320
So I think it's very similar to what you're saying on the personality side.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.919
And I bet that somewhere in the neurological, this is beyond me, right?
00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:05.519
I'm not a neuroscientist, but I bet that there's some interconnection between those personality derailers and our likelihood to default to the automatic system.
00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:07.679
I I think you're absolutely right.
00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:15.120
I maybe we could coin a phrase, something along the line of um the lizard brain doesn't win the long game.
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:16.960
Oh how about that?
00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:18.000
I just came up with that.
00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.159
We're we're gonna trademark that and uh we're gonna take it on a roadshop.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.159
That's gold.
00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:25.840
You can you just came up with that.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:28.320
That's me, man.
00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:30.720
I like that.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:32.480
Well, let's do this.
00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:38.320
I I because I like to bring in some some some personal pieces into the the discussion as well.
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:44.879
Because, you know, yes, you and I are academics and we're practitioners and we're speakers and authors on these things.
00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:55.519
Um, but but there's always something personal that we've felt that's influenced or impacted how we think about what we research and study and talk about.
00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:13.200
Do you have a good example of a bad experience that you've suffered as a customer yourself, or or maybe uh that you've witnessed one of your customers or clients have to deal with that really shaped how you thinking about how you're thinking about experience management?
00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:25.120
So this isn't like a horrible experience, but it's it's just so perfect from the work that you and I have done for a long time, James.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.879
I think you're gonna like this one.
00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:29.279
Um I was in the market.
00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:31.519
All right, so let me start with a little context.
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:42.240
So in my job, and my jobs I've had at Qualtrics, a lot of my work has been on how to help organizations measure employee and consumer experience.
00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:50.559
And one of the things I feel really strongly about is a lot of companies make the mistake of score chasing, right?
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:56.399
When they have their employee measures and their consumer measures, it's all about that number, it's about the hard numbers.
00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:00.480
We got to achieve an NPS of this amount, and we're below the benchmark.
00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.480
How do we get that number up?
00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:08.879
And so a lot of times, and very similar to like in baseball with saber metrics and money ball, right?
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:14.399
You you want to you maximize those metrics, and that's not a bad, you know.
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.720
Look, I I have no problem with data-driven decisions or data-driven companies.
00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:19.759
I like those.
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:31.360
But the problem in experience metrics, as you know, is that there's not a one-to-one connection between the rating a consumer gives or an employee gives and what they actually feel.
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.399
There's a there's a there's a chasm, right?
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:54.639
So when we're asking a question of a consumer, we're basically asking them about think back in your memory bank about your interactions with the company, make a judgment about those, and then map that judgment to a response that's usually on a one to five scale or on a zero to ten scale.
00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:55.039
Right.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:56.960
So you lose a lot of information.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:03.279
Um and yet it's still predictive, as as you know, it's still predictive, which is amazing.
00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:04.480
Okay.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:18.720
So in those companies that care about the score, what inevitably happens is there are pressures that are put on people to encourage people to respond in a certain way.
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:19.279
Okay.
00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:22.879
There's the context for this story, right?
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.360
So this is I think I know where you're going with this.
00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:26.960
For the watcher, right?
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:29.600
This is what I do for a living, right?
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:42.320
So, okay, a couple years ago, I'm out buying a vehicle and I decided on a truck, and just so happens that this dealership, the franchisee, is a customer.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:46.559
So I know I know what I know what's going on behind the scenes.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:48.080
They don't know that, of course.
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.080
The sales team doesn't know this.
00:12:50.639 --> 00:13:01.120
So I'm decide on the vehicle, I'm getting ready to drive this thing off the lot, and the sales rep comes in and says, Oh, Ben, one more thing before you leave.
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:08.000
And he goes inside and he comes out and he brings a packet, like a literal packet, probably 12-page packet of paper.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:08.399
Okay.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:17.360
And he says, Before you leave, you're gonna you're gonna get a survey in about a week about your experience here at the dealership.
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:28.159
And I want to walk through item by item to make sure that you'll give us a five out of five on all of them, because we don't accept anything less than a five.
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.480
And I just had a good old chuckle.
00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.080
I just literally start laughing.
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.279
I was like, man, you have no idea who you're talking to.
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.480
Yeah, we we've all experienced that, you know.
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:45.200
You know, um, you have to give me a nine or ten out of this scale, or I fail.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:45.759
Right.
00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:46.559
Right.
00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.000
Like, please don't make it impact my family.
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:51.519
I have to feed my babies.
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.639
So, so this is actually a really important point.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:56.000
Um, you know Dr.
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:57.759
Shauna Waters well.
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:25.360
Um she and I are actually working on a piece right now on the problems that we run into with goal setting when you put the practice of goal setting, which is one of the most well-supported practices in organizational psychology and human motivation, and you plop it into a large messy organization, and it doesn't surprise, surprise, it doesn't work exactly the way it does in the controlled settings, right?
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:26.639
Yeah, sure, right?
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:43.840
But but one of the things we we point out in this piece is when you tie goals to existential threats, my job's on the line, or you would you have people sandbag, right?
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.480
People protect themselves first, and it's not because they're bad.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:15:04.000
I had this this this really wacky interaction one time with a very senior executive at a uh um auto manufacturer, and we were meeting and we were talking about this gaming the system, you know, how do we make sure the reps don't game the system?
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:11.679
And this guy looked at me crudges like I was in moron, and he said, Oh, we don't hire people like that.
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:13.600
That would never happen here.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.360
We don't hire people like that.
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.200
Hold on a second, hold on a second.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.559
Firstly, how do you control for that in your hiring?
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:36.960
Two, are you saying that everybody you hire is so solid in their behavior that they're impervious to the impacts of the environment and the people you hire don't change over time?
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:38.879
That's essentially amazing.
00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.320
How did this guy do it, Ben?
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.679
It's incredible, it's inexplicable, James.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:45.519
So it's nonsensical.
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.519
Human beings adapt to their environment.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:58.639
And when you tie an existential threat, my pay, my livelihood, my job, to a goal like NPS or CSAT, what are people gonna do?
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.600
They're going to figure out how to protect themselves.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:05.519
And it's not because they're bad people, it's because they're in a shit environment.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:06.159
Yeah.
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.320
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:08.639
Right.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:09.360
Exactly.
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.159
I um you know, it's it's really interesting.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.000
You're talking about the score chasing.
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:23.519
Um, one of the folks I I interviewed for my book was um Professor Rob Markey, um, who's one of the co-creators of the Net Promoter Score.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.720
And and I don't know if you've interacted with him, but he's a really like calm, relaxed guy.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:35.519
And he's like, you know, James, the Net Promoter Score was never intended to be a vanity metric.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.000
It was intended to be part of a system.
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:40.240
And God bless it.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:41.840
Right, right.
00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.919
And and um, and yeah, the whole score chasing, and you and I have been combating that for a very long time.
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:55.600
And and I think um advancing on the beach head and and pushing it back a little bit, but but it is complex.
00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:56.720
It it is a challenge.
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:10.880
It is, you know, it is um I I thought that was really interesting about the um about the um the protecting of the the existential protection that you're talking about, because I'm curious if you've seen this.
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.880
I I I certainly am.
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.119
We can all agree that there's a lot of really cool stuff happening right now.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.160
There's also a lot of fear in the job market.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:26.319
And one of the phenomenons that it's created is something um that's being referred to as job hugging.
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:37.039
And, you know, if you're talking about the goal setting, which I think is a fascinating point to bring up, um, particularly with all the disruption going.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:42.720
I mean, how fast do you have to change those goals to adapt to what's going on?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:18:03.200
But one of the things with this job hugging that I think is really um bothering me a good bit for want of a better description, is that we all know that in order for organizations to really become customer driven, which means you have to be advancing on behalf of the customer, right?
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:13.920
You have to actually be innovating on things that the customer in many cases didn't even know they should be thinking about until you've actually helped lead them down that path.
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:18.480
In order to do that, you have to make big, bold moves.
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.000
I think we can agree on that.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.119
I mean, at Qualtrics, we used to call them big bets, right?
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:34.640
Um, I don't think individuals, teams, or leaders are making those big bets the way that they used to right now because they're afraid of rocking the boat.
00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.920
They're afraid of missing their number, they're afraid of losing their job.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.279
Curious if you've seen that or you've if you have a perspective on that.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:42.960
You know, Dr.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:51.759
Shauna told a great true example of a person, a business leader, a very senior business leader.
00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:53.359
She was coaching.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:01.119
And the story goes, he was looking at setting his basically his uh profit growth target for the year.
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.119
I think it was profit growth, margin growth.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.519
Don't quote me on that, but it was a big target for the company.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.400
And he was aiming for something in the realm of I think it was like 51%.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.200
Like he was going big, he wanted to swing big.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:30.240
And once he started playing around with it and he started realizing how his pay was going to be tied to it, how his family's livelihood was going to be tied to it, he eventually came down to 28%.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.599
So he cut it almost in half.
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.960
Now let's go to goal setting theory for a minute.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:46.400
I mean, you and I both know the the generally speaking, all things being equal, the more aggressive your goal, the better your performance.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.079
With some caveats, right?
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:50.400
You you don't want to push people to extremes.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:20:03.200
But when you come down that far, what it what it is reflective of is the current environment, which is and it's like you said, don't hate the player, hate the game.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:14.000
There's a lot of things I'm concerned about also with the way that the game's being played right now, because to me it seems to be uh very short-term focused.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:14.400
Yeah.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:23.680
I think you look at the I often think of the sort of like a pendulum swinging over time of who has the leverage.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:28.400
Is it the market, the street, the senior leadership, or is it talent?
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.240
And that swings back and forth.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.960
Right now we're in a period of organizations have a quite a bit more leverage.
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:50.160
Um, but um it also reminds me of you know some of the thought leaders just about 10 years ago when we were like knee deep in this space, they would say, you know, the war for talent's over and talent won.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:51.599
Right.
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.839
Well, that hasn't aged well.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:55.839
It hasn't aged well.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:04.559
Now, I do think that's gonna come back at some point, but it's not gonna come back until we experience a great deal of pain because that's human nature, right?
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:11.440
We have to really stub our toe and break our leg before we realize don't walk up that mountain, let's gotta go back.
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:14.559
But uh, I think there's a lot of truth in what you're saying.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.039
We're seeing it in our broader research too.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:26.799
You had asked this question earlier, I forgot to answer, but the broader consumer trends research that we do, and the employee trends research that we do, we're seeing a lot of symptoms of this.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:34.000
We we we're noticing that you know, three-quarters of the global workforce are experiencing a significant amount of change.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.200
By the way, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:47.839
Um, we saw this interesting finding this year, James, where we went out to almost 34,000 global employees across 24 countries, five continents, all major industries.
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:49.599
We are asking them about change.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.559
Now, I was joking with Marcus Wolfe, who you know well.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:52.960
Sure.
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.200
Yeah.
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.720
Uh he was my co one of my co researchers on this, Matt Evans.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:57.920
We were working on this together.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:58.319
Sure.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
And uh when we were going in.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.240
The study setting um ad hoc hypotheses, by the way.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:10.480
We thought, hey, all right, people who experience more change are going to be worse off psychologically.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:13.680
If we would have bet money, we would have lost.
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:15.119
Not the case, huh?
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:16.160
Yeah, no.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.599
What we saw was very consistent with the Yerkes-Dotson law.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:27.920
So essentially what we saw was this sort of inverted U relationship when you track the amount of change people experience on the x-axis.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:35.920
So, in other words, the people who were the worst off psychologically were the people who experienced the least amount of change over the last year.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:37.119
Fascinating.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:45.519
People who experienced an extreme amount of change, they were they also wasn't great, but it was the people in the middle who, yeah, I've experienced a lot.
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:47.599
Yeah, I've experienced a significant amount.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.839
They were the best off psychologically.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:58.799
We also saw a symptom here, too, of that strongly correlate with the amount of pressure people were feeling too in their jobs.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.400
So they're feeling the squeeze.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.920
Again, wasn't necessarily inherently bad, but it was the type of change in pressure that made a difference.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:23.680
And so, for example, we saw uh disruptive org changes like uh leadership churn, riffs and re-orgs had a you saw, you know, naturally people did not respond well in those environments.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:39.200
That's to be expected, but changes to the ways of working, changes to technology, AI, um, even RTO policies actually had a positive uh relation to job attitudes.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:44.240
People were more engaged, people were felt more higher well-being, which is kind of interesting.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:50.160
So it kind of led us to a preliminary conclusion that you know, change in itself isn't the enemy.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:24:02.240
And in fact, if the world is evolving and changing, which I think we all would agree with, and we're sitting there in our organization and we're stagnant while everybody else is moving, that's not a good place to be.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:09.759
And so there's a there's a Goldilocks zone where employees and consumers need to feel the progress.
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:14.720
Um, it's kind of like flying at 300, you know, 500 miles an hour at cruising speed.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.240
You don't feel like you're moving, right?
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:18.240
Einstein's theory of relativity.
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:21.440
You feel it when you feel the acceleration when you're taking off.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:26.160
But when you're going the same speed as everybody else, you're moving in the right direction.
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.519
And that that actually equates to better psychological outcomes.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.039
That's fascinating, Ben.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:39.599
So, um, so what's the implication then for practitioners of experience management and particularly employee experience here?
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:49.039
Is it to shape and create the right experiences that eliminate the extremes so that everybody kind of gets into the you in the middle?
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:50.400
Or what are your thoughts on that?
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:56.000
I think that that's one, but um, that's hard to, you know, it is hard to operationalize that.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.480
It's like, okay, well, what does that exactly mean?
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.119
So I think there's a few sub things in there.
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:08.000
One is engaging in ongoing conversation, and one of my favorite points, you know, you you know this, James.
00:25:08.079 --> 00:25:21.119
So during hectic times, these are often times when companies like pause their consumer employee listening programs, you know, and adjusting the dumbest thing in the world.
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:22.240
Exactly.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:32.480
But come on, allow me to um kind of interpret that in a in a benevolent way.
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.160
Uh during COVID, this happened a lot, right?
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:50.880
With the the shit hit the fan, things were changing, it was it was chaotic, and a lot of leaders justified the decision to pause those things because it was like, hey, our goal is to get our employees at home equipped to work safely.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.279
Our job, uh that's our main priority.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.119
And and I'm here saying, amen.
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:56.960
You know, that is a great goal.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.200
That that should be your number one goal.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:10.319
So if you think of those things as, oh, we're just serving our customers, we're just serving our employees, it's easy then to frame it as we don't have time for that extraneous activity.
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.920
I think it's so important that we reframe that.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.240
We're not just running surveys.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:22.240
This is a listening, listening programs that allow us to stay connected and have conversation.
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:29.839
And during times of change and disruption, those are the times when you need to talk more, not less.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:31.359
You don't say.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:32.319
Right.
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:35.680
But when you frame it that way, everybody says, well, of course.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:37.119
So I think it is important.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.440
It goes back to your point earlier, James, about the leadership mindset at the top of the house.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:43.279
What do they see this as?
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.279
Um, is it a is it a way that we can have conversation?
00:26:47.519 --> 00:27:00.400
So getting off of the survey thing, during those times of change when people are bombarded with it, finding that Goldilocks on employees, acknowledging it's not going to be the same for every individual.
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.400
But you have to talk about that.
00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:04.559
You have to have ongoing conversation.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:11.119
That can take the form of one-on-ones, that can take the form of team meetings, increase your communication.
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:22.000
The other thing I would always also advise leaders during these times, especially when you're going through really disruptive like rifts and acquisitions and mergers, when people really feel the pressure.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:23.519
Actually, I'll give two.
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.240
These and these I talk about in the book.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.680
Um, one, maintain grounded optimism.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:38.000
Um, I love the Stockdale paradox as laid out by Jim Collins and good to great, but yeah, it's like, hey, you don't want to be overly Pollyannish.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:39.359
Oh, it's it's gonna be fine.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.599
After we get through this part, it's gonna be great.
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.799
Bullshit.
00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.960
Everybody's gonna see through that, right?
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.039
No, it's not gonna be all great.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:56.799
It's gonna be rough, and you have to be willing to face the brutal reality of the state you're in, but you have to have grounded optimism that we will get through this period together.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.960
Yeah, and one of the ways to do that, go back to goal setting.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:11.599
You take those big audacious goals that you're now putting on people, because a lot of times after those disruptive changes, people are feeling like they're being asked to do more than they were yesterday.
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.519
And that can be bad if it's unmanaged.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:21.119
But one way you can kind of manage it is to break those big audacious goals into small ones.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.680
And then as you make progress, celebrate those publicly.
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:28.799
And so that helps people feeling like their work matters.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:41.200
It helps people feeling like they're contributing to the organization's goals, it helps to infuse some positive emotions, which are highly contagious, and they can combat some of the negative emotions that inevitably show up.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:42.240
Oh, yeah.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:44.000
And um, I I agree with that.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:48.480
And and there's a really great book uh by Steve Magnus called Do Hard Things.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:58.000
Um, I'm a big fan of this, and um and um even our our triathlete coach um you know borrows from some of that.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:12.480
And I remember she said once that, you know, after a big long, hard training camp over a long weekend, she said, All right, you know, we rode 300 miles and we ran, you know, 50 miles, and we hiked 18 miles, and we did strength training.
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:23.839
We did, and and she says, uh, here's the thing, you know, mate, she's Australian, when you do hard things, the habits you had yesterday become smaller and more easily manageable.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:25.519
And right.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:32.799
I mean, and what you're saying, I I think is really important because you're you're also um a recovering endurance athlete, right?
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:33.200
Yes.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:30:00.640
And if you you can take that and apply it to your work, if you take the ultimate goal and compartmentalize it into manageable bite-sized chunks, and you're creating winning habits on a daily basis, which is largely what my work is about, all of a sudden that big, scary, hairy, audacious goal, it's just uh doing a thing that you get into the habit of doing on a daily basis, and you have a compounding effect over time.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.079
And that can do great things for the psyche, right?
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:32.720
Um, but I, you know, it but then you take the the flip side of that and you get into the command and control stage, and you you were talking about the pandemic, and I I remember um I was still at Qualtrics at the time with you, and there was a major um beverage company, and they paused their employee listening program, and we're really trying to counsel them not to do that.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:43.440
And the response was, well, we know what kind of scores that we're going to get, and that would impact you know our quarterly bonuses.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:45.920
So we're not gonna ask that right now.
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:55.599
So bringing it full circle back to score chasing and creating poor habits, um, and that's a function of culture, and that's a function of leadership for sure.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:30:56.960
Completely agree.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:02.640
And you know, I saw some good just to balance that too, as we saw a lot of the same things, James.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:08.720
I've also seen some really courageous companies um and some courageous leaders.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:19.680
One that really sticks in my mind was I was in Thailand for a global operation summit with a um global restaurant, quick serve restaurant chain.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:38.480
And I remember the head of their Asia Pacific region got up and boldly in front of his peers, fellow COOs and franchisees, said, Here's all the negative scores we got from our consumers, and this is a celebration.
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:42.799
And I'm sitting there like, oh, I like where this is going.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:52.559
But his point was our customers trust us enough, our associates aren't out there gaming the system, so that's a good sign.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:57.279
And now we have honest feedback from our consumers to where we know what to do.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:14.319
Not a day later did the COO of the Ireland um um uh British region come up and and celebrate negative scores they got from their associates for the same reasons, and so it's a reframing, it's not about the scores.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:20.880
The goal should be to make the scores reflect what's actually in people's minds.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:31.519
Because when those scores do reflect what's in people's minds, honesty, that means your data's worth something, and now you can do cool stuff with it.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:43.920
But if you insert incentives and you put existential threats in between that, that's right, the distance between what's actually in people's minds and the scores widens, and now your data's not worth shit.
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:46.720
Totally agree.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:54.640
Uh and um I I want to get to your book here in just a second, but before we we go there, I kind of to put a bow on this.
00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:16.640
One of the things that um that I'm pieces of data that I'm getting from practitioners, from thought leaders, from experts, and experience management, both on the employee experience and the customer experience side, one of the trends that they're saying is that a lot of the programs out there right now are in some state of failure.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.279
Um do you see that?
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.039
Uh, do you agree with that?
00:33:21.119 --> 00:33:27.279
And and what are some observations that you've got um and what should we be doing about it?
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:38.400
We're we're actually right in the middle of a very large research project, both qualitative and quantitative, on the future of the field of experience management.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:45.519
And we're trying to project out what's going to change about the roles of XM professionals.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:52.640
And a lot of that has been very illuminating and I think offers us a potential answer to this question.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.000
Um, very curious if it jives with what you've been hearing.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:03.759
But I think one of the failure modes or the reasons why we see these in failure is the siloed nature of these programs.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:12.159
Um, oftentimes customer experience is very, very far removed from the employee experience.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:21.280
Worse even, those programs and teams are far removed from the business and what the business objectives are.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:31.280
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've just asked the question of an EX practitioner or a CX practitioner, hey, how does your company make money?
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.119
And they have no clue.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:34.000
They have no clue.
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:35.199
They have no idea.
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:37.280
That's a problem.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:54.000
So it is good that organizations have experts in listening and analysis, but I think we have to realize that those capabilities are becoming commoditized.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:35:00.159
You know, that knowledge, that deep knowledge and expertise is becoming commoditized with AI.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.880
Um, will we need like deep experts in survey design in five years?
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:08.400
Uh I don't know.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:11.760
I mean, I'm kind of it's getting pretty good pretty fast.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:12.880
Right.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:17.599
Like I don't want to say no, but I also I'm not confident to say yeah, you know.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:24.559
So, but but one thing we have seen over and over and over in our interviews, it was ubiquitous.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:32.719
Both business leaders and XM professionals was the real successful programs are connected.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:37.039
The EX professional knows who their counterpart is on the CX side.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.000
And you'd be surprised.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:44.800
I mean, maybe you wouldn't, James, but I think sometimes our little maybe your listeners might be surprised how often those people don't know each other.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.159
Like James, how often were you the matchmaker?
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:50.559
Oh, oh yes.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:36:02.800
Well, I I'll even go a step further if I can insert something real quick because I um I I won't say who, but but it's it's it's one of the major athletic wear producers in Portland.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.039
You can figure out you know which one.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:14.239
Um, but I I remember this meeting with uh about 30 of the HR team um there globally.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:22.800
Um and it became very apparent as I was introducing myself to all these people that none of these people had met one another.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:38.400
And so the the person who handled the onboarding survey had never met or talked to the person who did the exit survey, and those people had never met or talked to the person who did the engagement survey, and nobody talked to the 360 because that was the leadership development person way over there, right?
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.880
And nobody had talked to the training because that's learning and development, that's a different program.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:54.079
And so just the fact that either virtually or physically, none of these people who, yes, okay, were accountable for different swim lanes, but they were also in the same pool.
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:55.519
Same pool.
00:36:56.480 --> 00:37:17.760
And that was that was a real I my gosh, I had been doing this work for goodness at the time, probably you know, 17, 18 years, and that was the first time that I had seen something like that, and it really shifted how I think about running meetings and and working with clients because of that.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.280
It's like, hey, does everybody here actually know one another?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:25.280
Does everybody here actually know what each other is accountable for?
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:34.880
But to your point, I think that um yes, the days of quote unquote doing an engagement survey, they're gone.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:35.599
Yeah.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.679
Yeah, I think so too.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.880
And um, and you know, back to your question, I mean, that's a great example.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.960
It's unfortunate, but it's a great example of exactly what I'm what I'm talking about.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:38:00.320
I think that is that is absolutely one of the reasons these programs are are failing, is because they're siloed, they're they're disconnected from what really matters to the business, back to the values we talked about earlier.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.880
And and look, let's get real for a minute.
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:10.880
Those met those metrics around margin growth, profit growth, customer logo growth, those are important.
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:11.679
Absolutely.
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:20.239
I don't think we should myopically focus on that and just just focus, we have to focus on the things that drive it and and the levers to pull.
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:27.440
But if we don't even know what those are and we can't articulate that, then what are we doing?
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:33.119
And that's where I think you are more likely to find an obsession with the numbers.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:48.320
You know, there's uh it's not a perfect relationship, but I'd bet that the more siloed the program is, the more myopically focused on the score versus no, we're we're not focused on the score, we're focused on the behavior.
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:57.119
We're focused on the attitudes because we know that those behaviors and attitudes ladder up to these business metrics that we're driving toward.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:00.320
And I can articulate that as an XM professional.
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:10.880
And I have a relationship with my CFO or my CIO or my CTO or my CX or EX uh practitioner.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:23.280
So, in short, we do believe, firmly believe, that in the very near future, and I'd say start now, um, build relationships across the aisle.
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:33.679
Ask questions, understand what other people's objectives are, start to form a bigger image in your mind of where your work fits in with that.
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:41.760
That's gonna help you contextualize because again, we're gonna have technologies come in who can do a lot of the work we used to do, like that.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.239
So our job has to change.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:49.920
And we're our part of that change might be contextualizing and being a good business partner.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:51.920
I think that's right.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:57.440
And and and business partner um, I think is absolutely critical there.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:18.000
I mean, in in today's world, uh if you look at decision making, um, much of decision making these days that impacts the HR side of things, you really have to involve the office of the CIO because so much of that is now technology related, and certainly with advances in AI, right?
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:25.679
But also important to reach across the aisle and talk to the office of the CFO, like how much money are we spending?
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:26.800
How much is this costing?
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.440
What kind of return are we expecting to get on it?
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:43.039
Those are still, um, particularly on the EX side of the house, uh, those are still um approaches or avenues that that really are are um not pursued with the vigor that they should be.
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:43.679
I agree.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:50.480
Um just because you know HR has has for a very long time um struggled to prove its value.
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:58.159
And so tying that um financial, the fiscal responsibility, the fiduciary uh responsibility, I think is just really, really important.
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:05.360
So well, let's let's let's let's put a put a pen in that one and let's shift over to some fun stuff.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:07.679
Tell us about your book.
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:09.599
How did you get started on it?
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:11.519
Like, like what is it about?
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:13.440
Like, I can't wait to to read it.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:15.199
I haven't I haven't gotten my copy yet.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:16.079
Are you still owe me that?
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:16.960
It's on the way.
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.280
It's on the way I shipped it last week.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.719
Um, I think I gotta double check on pretty sure I did.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:28.639
So um this started, I think I started the project about four and a half years ago.
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:29.119
Goodness.
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.360
And uh James, you'll you'll remember this.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:33.360
I think you'll resonate with this well.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:45.360
What what had basically happened was I started doing a lot of work with uh different reporters, different media outlets, and I was representing a lot of our research that we would that we do.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:57.119
And basically our head of PR said, hey, it would really benefit everybody if we elevated your title so that we could you know open more doors and things like that.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:01.840
So they came up with this phenomenal job title of chief workplace psychologist.
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.360
So at the time I was like, Yeah, don't I don't know what that means, but sign me up, you know.
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.440
Still the same guy I was yesterday.
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:10.639
Still the same guy.
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:23.119
But and and actually that's that's an important point too, because as you know, uh folks like yourself, we're surrounded by incredible psychologists and behavior science.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:33.440
I mean, we had we have and had just a critical mass of extreme talent on the on that side, I think you would agree.
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:34.159
Yes.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:43.599
So I had a moment of imposter phenomenon, you know, where I'm like, you know, do I but do I deserve this?
00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:46.960
So I decided I was like, you know what, I gotta earn it.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:53.199
And I went just on an absolute tear through the literature on books.
00:42:53.280 --> 00:43:00.719
I started in our field of organizational psychology, but I allowed myself the freedom to take it where it needed to go.
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:09.440
And so that got me into leadership because a lot of our work, I mean, my overall, and I talk about this at the beginning of the book.
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.199
I had no intention of being a leadership guy, right?
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.880
It's a leadership book, but I had no intention of that, never.
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:19.440
I actually didn't intend to write a book either.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.079
Um, when I started this project, I was just studying, I was just learning.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.480
And so, but that took me to leadership.
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:33.360
Leadership took me to evolutionary psychology, evolutionary psychology took me to biology and anthropology.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:37.599
That took me to astrophysics and quantum physics.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.519
That within that was neuro, a little touch on neuroscience.
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:44.880
So I just allowed myself the freedom to go where I needed to go.
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.440
And so as I was reading, I was also writing.
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:50.800
I had hundreds and hundreds of notes on my iPhone, James.
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:52.800
So I started organizing them.
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.599
And then one day I'm sitting there in church.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:59.440
Um you know, sometimes you get that little nudge.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:06.559
And I've learned over time that when when I've when I'm in a good state and I get a nudge, go with it.
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.440
When I'm not in a good state and I get a nudge, ignore it.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.239
So at that point I was in a very good state.
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:13.840
Um and I was like, okay.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.920
And I got that nudge to write a book.
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:24.559
I was like, I could put this stuff together, all these observations I'm making, and shared with other leaders who are struggling with the same things I'm struggling with.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:29.039
And then not two, three days later, I got hit up by a major publisher.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.079
And so you just can't make you can't make this stuff up.
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.400
So they reached out and said, Hey, we read something you wrote, you know, whatever.
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:39.840
Would you be interested in partnering on a book on a similar topic?
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:43.679
And I said, Well, it just so happens I kind of just decided to write one and have a lot of notes.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.199
So from that point on, that was about two and a half years ago.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.760
That's when I actually decided to write the book.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:03.119
And uh really what it's about is um all this learning that I did through my own personal experience, through the research we've done together at Qualtrics, through the outside reading I've done in these all these different fields.
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:09.199
And it's looking at the current state and saying, we are in this crazy, highly unpredictable environment.
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.679
The pace of change is going to accelerate.
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:15.440
We uh we have to understand ourselves better.
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.840
Leaders must understand themselves better, how they show up matters, the environments they create.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:30.079
And so, really, it's a very, it's both a deep, gets very deep, goes into evolutionary history, looks at why we do the weird things we do.
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.880
We talk about the systems of the mind that we mentioned earlier, but it's also a very practical book.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:46.000
And so in every chapter, I leave the reader with some very practical tips on how they can better themselves as a leader and show up better for both employees and customers.
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:47.519
I love that.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:58.559
Um so much synergy there um with you know my interests and passions and um uh out of private message that we have between us, which I thought was really funny.
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:04.480
Uh, you made a joke that uh we ought to go on a dual book tour called a customer-driven leader worth following.
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.360
I thought that was really not a bad idea.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.719
It's still not a bad idea.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.639
There's definitely some synergies there.
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:14.559
I um so I love the practical application.
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:16.079
I'm a big fan of that as well.
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:39.760
I mean, I there's many years ago there was a uh a research paper that was published, I th I think it was through um Academy uh I can't remember, it doesn't matter, but but basically it showed that it took five years for an empirical journal article to actually be you know published in a reputable uh you know publication that was peer-reviewed.
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.159
Uh it was Academy of Management, that's what it was.
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:56.880
And um, you know, and you think like how much shit comes out about leadership in that same five-year window that has absolutely no, you know, solid, sound theoretical basis a whole lot.
00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:58.159
So it's it's good.
00:46:58.559 --> 00:46:59.599
It's a crowded space.
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:00.559
Yeah, it is.
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:01.199
It is.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.039
Um there is no barrier to entry, that is for sure.
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:21.599
And that's why I love the fact that somebody like you who's got the academic chops and the practitioner chops and you know has worked in the trenches bringing this practical application in addition to, you know, some of the academic and theoretical background.
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:32.960
If I were to to put you on the spot and say, you know, what are maybe two or three big takeaways that that you think that people would really be interested in in getting from this, what what would those be?
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:37.280
One of the biggest surprises I found on my journey, my learning journey.
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:49.039
And I also think is a has incredibly important practical applications, is when in history did uh humans learn to talk and listen to each other?
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:59.840
So I sort of took it for granted as a primal experience we all share that surely humans have always been able to communicate with words, but that's not true at all.
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:13.119
And so uh would what this is disputed, but most of the estimates that I was able to find were uh human speech developed about somewhere between 100 to 200,000 years ago.
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:24.480
Now, for most listeners, that's gonna sound like a long time, but consider this yes, that is a long time for people who think in terms of days, months, uh, years, decades.
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:26.639
Yeah, that's a long time.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:37.119
But if you zoom out and you look at it from a cosmic perspective, uh it's like uh we learned to talk yesterday and we learned to write an hour ago.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:44.880
Because humans have been, mankind has been communicating nonverbally for many millions of years.
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:49.199
Yeah, and so this really got me rethinking.
00:48:49.360 --> 00:49:04.719
Oh, well, no wonder there's so much angst among people about poor communication in an organization, which is very, yeah, I think generally very low fidelity emails, text messages, social media.
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:09.760
Um, that's low fidelity communication now that now that I view it that way.
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:12.960
And so that's where we're when a lot of what I talk about.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:22.800
I have a whole chapter on chapter four about how to create ongoing dialogue, how to upgrade your written communication, how to upgrade your verbal communication.
00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:29.840
There's the second big takeaway related to that, but it also has some other implications, is the importance of body language.
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.559
So, as you and I know, we and we have another colleague we've worked with for a long time, was also a geek in body language, Dr.
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:37.280
Brakovich.
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:38.159
Leo Brakovich.
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:38.800
Oh, yes.
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:40.400
But uh Leo.
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.760
Yeah, he's a great guy, super sharp, um, fellow body language nerd.
00:49:46.079 --> 00:50:02.559
And that I think is a place where we really need to better understand how our body language, when we're having a conversation with somebody, when we're shaking hands with somebody, when we're uh trying to console an employee, when we're talking to an irate customer, matters a lot.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:10.960
And we have to bring our unconscious tendencies, because uh for most of us, our body language flows unconsciously.
00:50:11.199 --> 00:50:14.400
It just we we just naturally do it.
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:24.800
But I think that's a place where we need to bring that unconscious up to the level of our reflective system, the higher order parts of our brain, where we can make a conscious decision about how to show up.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.280
Quick tips here you're having a one-on-one with an employee, don't cross your arms.
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:35.679
You're having a one-on-one with an employee about a performance conversation, don't sit across a desk from them.
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:41.599
You know, you're in a customer meeting, sit side by side with them, not across the table if you can.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:45.440
You know, so those sorts of things, removing physical barriers.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:53.519
When you shake somebody's hand, you know, watch out for those people who come in and they give you a big old over-the-hander and a slap on the back, right?
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:55.280
That communicates something.
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:56.960
Don't do that for one.
00:50:57.039 --> 00:51:07.119
Yeah, but how do you control yourself to make sure that your unconscious brain doesn't take over and make you small because you're not gonna notice that, but it's likely to happen.
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.679
So a lot of practical tips there.
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.039
Um, a lot more, but I think those are a couple of big ones.
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:14.159
I love that.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:17.440
You know, again, the lizard brain doesn't win the long game, right?
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:18.559
I love that long.
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:22.400
I'm telling you, we need a placard or a banner or something.
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.599
So um, well, Ben, we're we're gonna land the plane here.
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.079
Um, really appreciate you being on.
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:30.800
Um, as always, it's just great to interact with you.
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:33.039
Just you're a treasure trove of information and insight.
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:34.400
Right back at you, brother.
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:35.519
Really appreciate that.
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:40.719
So, so um the other side of the book end is what I call two things.
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:45.360
And that is could be in the form of stop starts or continues, if you will.
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:57.760
But one thing you'd recommend to organizations out there that they could start doing to improve their experience management programs, and one thing to maybe stop doing uh in order to improve their experience management programs.
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:03.840
Yeah, start, I would say go find your counterparts, meet them, know who they are.
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:04.719
Do that today.
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:12.559
Like go find out who the person is on the employer, the customer, start a relationship with those people.
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:28.400
Second sub tip there once you get to know them, find out what matters to them, what they're held accountable to, and then think what do I have in my back pocket that I can help you and just offer the proactive gift.
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:37.679
That is it's a magical how to kick start a virtuous risk reciprocal cycle with that and build a really good relationship.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:38.719
Love that.
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:42.880
Love that and stop score chasing, stop score chasing.
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:44.880
I think we've beaten that one down.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:54.639
Um, Ben, I I know you've got um a few different um like your website for your book, and obviously uh you know, some other avenues here.
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:56.800
How can people best get in touch with you?
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.400
Yeah, best place to go would be benjamengranger.com.
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:04.079
I said it's easy, but uh James, you're right on as Granger.
00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:05.280
But uh it's easy.
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.639
Benjamin Granger, like HermioneGranger.com.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:10.880
And uh quick quick things on there.
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:16.559
I got I gotta brag a little bit uh because I'm just beyond blown away by this.
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.159
Um I hit two national bestseller lists last week.
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:26.719
So I hit the USA Today top 15, and I hit the AP top 15.
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.599
Um, I'm just beyond excited about that.
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:31.119
Publishers week, I should say.
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:42.239
As am I, and I you know, I know it was uh what a couple of weeks ago you and I were talking, and you said, I can't say anything about it yet, but I I feel like you know the book's actually gonna be pretty big.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:48.320
And and to see that announcement from you on LinkedIn um really warmed my heart.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:49.440
I uh you know, thank you.
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.639
You are deserving of this, so so please take it.
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:56.960
You put in the hard work, and um, I'm excited to see where this goes for you.
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:58.559
And I'm excited to read the book too.
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:02.639
So I can't wait to hear one one quick if you could spare 30 more seconds.
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:09.360
On the website, I also have a companion playlist, uh, songs that inspired me as I wrote each chapter.
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:11.199
I have a broken down by the chapter.
00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:24.880
So it's a little bit of a scavenger hunt to see if you can spot the connection between the song and what's being talked about in the chapter, but it's also a memory aid, too, so that next time you go and you hear that song, you'll remember our conversation.
00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:25.920
I love it.
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:26.400
Dr.
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:31.679
Benjamin Granger, thank you for being on, and thank you everybody for being with us.
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:33.599
We'll go ahead and sign off now.
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:34.719
Everybody take care.
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:35.679
Thanks, Ben.
