The Creativity Question: Welcome to another episode of The Creativity Question. I am really pleased today to be hosting someone I've known for a few years now, and I have had the pleasure to work with as well in her company, which we'll talk about throughout the episode. This guest journey with her company began in 2013 when she stepped into the role of education. Reach and development coordinator, quickly becoming a driving force behind the charity's growth. Today she is the CEO of this company and she guides its direction with determination and a deep-rooted passion for equity and opportunity in education. Her story, however, began even earlier. So at just 18, she joined the School Lever program as an international education program coordinator at the London Organising. Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. And there she played a hands-on role in bringing the London 2012 education programme Get Set to Life, Connecting with School across the UK and beyond, and building lasting relationships. At the heart of her work is a simple but powerful conviction, which I love by the way, that education should open doors for every young person, regardless of their background or starting point. She's driven to create pathways where potential is realized, creativity is nurtured, and young people develop the confidence and agency to shape their own future. In 2024, her impact was recognized when she was named number 21 in Computer Week's list of the most influential women in tech. So, first of all, congratulations on this and welcome to Natalie Moore.
Natalie Moore: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation.
The Creativity Question: I am very excited to have this conversation with you, Natalie, because all the people who have been here before are strictly speaking creative. So kind of, you know, people who are asked to be creative all the time. But I have this firm conviction that creativity is part of everyone's mindset and everyone's life. I'm particularly happy to have you here because you do a completely different job. But I think that creativity can translate in many, many ways. So thank you for being here. And let's start with our first question. that is always, you know, the same. And it's Natalie, what does creativity mean to you?
Natalie Moore: well i think it's funny that you you just said that because i think if you'd asked me yeah 10 15 years ago i probably would have said that i'm not a creative type i shouldn't be on this podcast because i'm you know i'm not creative and yeah i'd never seen myself i guess as arty when i was growing up and in school i did love things like dance and and sport but you know i was never the one choreographing dance routines i wasn't the one that had that creative
The Creativity Question: Mm-hmm.
Natalie Moore: brain that's what i would say But I think you know as I've gained more experience of the working world and more exposure to different environments different people I've actually learned that creativity is everywhere as you said and it is in every role in every type of career and I think that's then probably changed the meaning of it for me, know, and I it's not just this kind of abstract thing that sits in a certain place and you're creative but you're not or you're arty and you're not but actually it's very much about I guess problem solving, know, creativity is a problem solving tool and I think that's something that we see all the time at Apps for Goods, the charity that I run, you know, it's all about young people and giving them agency to act and influence and shape their world and social innovation but you can't do that without being creative so I think, you know, Yeah, had this been a podcast we were doing 10-15 years ago, I probably would have said, oh, I don't know, I'm not creative. But actually, think, yeah, over the years, that's changed so, so much for me. And I think what I see most often, probably even in myself now, is that that creativity often comes in that really messy bit when you're like tackling a problem, you know, you don't know what direction to go in, you feel quite stuck and you have to take a moment, reflect, think differently, bring other people into the conversation and kind of navigate that problem to get to a solution. I think that is all about being creative and kind of making your brain work in a different way and being challenged. And I think that's so important as a skill that everybody should learn. And it is a human skill. I think there's a lot of talk in our world at Apps for Good, in the education, the technology sector about AI and other technology tools, which obviously in many ways I'm a huge advocate absolutely but I think those tools only work best with a creative human behind them you know that that is what's gonna do the job and make them work well together as teammates rather than you know that tech tool isn't gonna solve everybody's problem so I think yeah there there is a real kind of focus on human creativity being a human skill and needing that to bring something to life and solve a problem and it's something we see you know as AptoGood we work with young people every academic year and you know this really well Fabby but the end of the year we have our annual showcase and we invite all of our student teams to share the problems and that they've been working on and show the products that they've created and it blows me away you know seeing the creativity that these young people have they think outside of the box that sometimes as you grow up and mature you kind of put everything in a box and and you don't think like that and yeah I think for me that's really bought kind of creativity. to life and actually when you look at a problem with no boundaries and allow yourself to really think big you can then kind of focus in and get to a solution. So yeah I think I've learned a lot about creativity over the last few years and that actually what you're sometimes taught creativity is at school you know I think I was probably even told by teachers you're not very creative and actually I think everyone has it in them in different ways and it's about bringing it to life and yeah using that creativity to solve the problems that are important to you or your work and take that forward.
The Creativity Question: I profoundly agree with this. I think that creativity is all about solving problems. And this is even a quote by Einstein, I think. I think he used to say that creativity is the ability to find a solution. And it is a shame that sometimes we've been told by our educators you're not very creative, because that is really a biased thought. And it really also then shapes the future of. the students in a direction that probably could have been different if they didn't hear that. So I really agree with that. And thank you for sharing your your opinion and and your experience. So I'm I always also am very interested in people's influences and how these influences have shaped your thoughts and how the definition of creativity has changed over time. I mean you told us already a little bit about that, but would you mind to expand on that as well?
Natalie Moore: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's probably a few different kind of spheres of influence in my kind of life that have impacted me in different ways when it comes to thinking about creativity. And one of them is probably my journey as a professional, I suppose. You mentioned that, you know, I didn't go to university. I started my first job at the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games straight out of sixth form. Very young and naive to the world of work, but actually learnt a lot very quickly and then when I joined up so good back in 2013 so a long time ago now 13 years ago I was in quite a junior role but over the years I've been able to take on more responsibility and kind of one where about every different hat that exists in the company so I've tried every job role but you know I've ended up as CEO and I think that's been a huge learning journey for me particularly when it comes to kind of creativity and I think something I've learned and hopefully my team agree with this in the way I manage the charity is that Creativity and isn't just down to one person, you know It doesn't just happen over there in one side of the office or one side of the room But for me, I think I've learned how you can bring a group of diverse minds diverse people together And that's when creativity really comes to life when you're kind of bouncing ideas off of each other Creating that culture of group thinking and you know it everyone's problem you know it's not just down to the fundraiser to work out how we're going to fundraise but we all come together and think about it or if we're thinking about the new course that we might launch the next academic year we get everybody's opinion and I think that's something that I've probably learnt that you know if there are times where I feel like I'm struggling with this problem or I'm not feeling so creative bring the team together let's hear everyone's voices and actually you know once once someone shares one idea it goes from there and I love that idea. and we tell this to our students as well that like no idea is a bad idea because I think that's something that's really important and easier to do in a smaller organization where you can try and fail quite quickly and move on and pivot and do something different. So I think that's probably something that's really, yeah, taught me kind of what creativity is and that actually I probably am quite creative and if I'm not feeling so, I've got the ability to coach and bring people together to get us to that sort of solution. I mean I touched on our students already but they're a huge influence on my approach to kind of creativity and what I feel about creativity. think you know just seeing the ideas and you see this as well Fabi that these young people come up with when you're talking to them you know we I think it just blows me away. I think when I was their age I'm sure I didn't have ideas like that but maybe I did and I think you kind of over time as I said they get kind of watered down a little bit but I Yeah, they've shown me what it is really like to kind of tackle big problems. You know, some of our students when they're working on their apps for good ideas, they're tackling huge issues like racism, immigration, know, and gender bias. All of these huge themes that are all over our kind of country and the world and in politics right now. But these young people take a unique view on it and have a really creative solution to it. So I sometimes think we should have more of our students in government, you know, doing doing that work because they have the ability to think differently and be really creative. I think also what I love with our students is sometimes we then talk to some of our industry volunteers and professionals, people like you Fabby who say they learnt loads from the students as well. They had the opportunity to reflect on how they can be more creative in their day to day work and think differently. So I think that's probably something that has changed my perspective and still every single year they told really blow me away with the ideas that they come up with but i think something that's a bit a bit more personal i suppose to me rather than work focused but i have a three and a half year old daughter and i mean having her probably has changed my look on the world in general in so many different ways but i think what i love about seeing freya my little girl just the way she sees the world it's just so differently and it is so creative you know i think she'll have a pile of rubbish that needs to be taken out to the recycling bin and she'll pick
The Creativity Question: Mm.
Natalie Moore: it up and be like, mommy can I make binoculars with this? Can I make a telescope? I'm going to colour this in and I think, you know, for me that was just rubbish that was annoying and I had to put it in the bin but she just has this... yeah it's like it's amazing that she's got this bit of cardboard and she can turn it into something so i think bringing that like imagination and creativity together is so exciting at that age and i think seeing that is allowing me to like relive those years and see the sort of wonder that that children see in everyday life and actually when i was kind of prepping for this podcast and having a talk with the team laura and our team mentioned a book that she's been reading at the moment that i really want to read myself it's called the book of magical living by poppy Jamie and in there it says a four-year-old spots ten more details than the average adult so they see the beauty and difference in the ordinary and I think that's so true with my little girl I see that all the time where she is kind of just sees things differently and then yeah has that spark and that creativity to turn a really boring dull object into something that she plays with with for hours,
The Creativity Question: Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Moore: know, people joke about it, don't they, when you buy the children all of the Christmas presents and they're more interested in the wrapping paper and the boxes. But it's
The Creativity Question: Yeah.
Natalie Moore: so true. And I think that seeing that in real life with my own little girl has really made me again, like reflect on, yeah, you can be creative with limited resource. And, you know, it's just about removing some of those barriers and just thinking a bit differently and stepping away. So, yeah, that's probably gone on a bit of a tangent there. But they're probably the things around me that I like in the last yeah few years have kind of shifted my view and perspective and I hope I can be more like Freya and hang on to that energy that she has and remind myself of that because I think it is so important and definitely then I bring that into my working life as well and can kind of look at things differently.
The Creativity Question: I think that that's such a true vision of creativity because I try to keep my reminding myself how I was when I was younger or when I was even a child, because it's absolutely true that they see everything in a different way and they are more open to solutions. That's the thing. They are more open. And you're right, when I worked with you guys and I volunteered and I met all these students. I keep meeting these students all the time. And they do have a sensitivity and a perception that is so much more subtle and more insightful than most adults. some of them presented apps where they were helping mental health issues, they were trying to solve mental health issues. Or they were trying to reassure young girls and boys about their physical aspects. It's it's so much deeper than the conversation that adults and like you said, politicians are having even, you know, they we should definitely give young people a lot more credit and a lot more space in society. Because I think that the bias that that grow with us in in every job just you know, just shape us in a way that block everybody in a way. So I
Natalie Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The Creativity Question: I think that that's really true. And and I'm sure that you'll learn even more from Vreya and and from all the students you work with. and actually about that, tell us your moments of breakthrough or struggle or all at the same time that you went through.
Natalie Moore: Yeah, so I think it's really it's interesting, you know, manage managing a charity because we're a small charity. We have a small team with often very limited resource and budget, you know, and we we try to do a lot with a little sometimes, you know, it's kind of like we yeah,
The Creativity Question: Yeah, of course.
Natalie Moore: which I know is is true of many organizations. So I think we often have to really think creativity creatively about how we're spending our money about you know what we're going to do next what we're going to prioritize but I think you know for us something that we've been focusing on now for the last I guess maybe say about six months is with with the the rise of AI essentially you know it does change some of the the courses that we currently offer to schools and whilst the curriculum is still or the curriculum in the UK is still catching up with AI and the progress in technology we don't want to leave our students behind so we've had to kind of take a step back and for the last few years we've had multiple different courses at the same time and we had this real kind of moment yeah probably about six months or so ago now where we were like right what are we going to do going forward you know AI use is increasing we need to prepare our young people for the world of work that's we can't even predict what it will look like but we know that they're not going to be prepared if we just continue teaching what we're currently teaching so yeah we've kind of decided to completely redesign our approach to our course content going from having three different courses to just having one as of next year that we're launching in August which is really exciting we're starting to see it come to life but that was a big decision in itself you know and it was a bit of a moment of breakthrough and we had to be really brave as well to kind of think okay we've got used to this way of working our teachers are used to this way of working our partners and funders are used to this way of working but actually is that what our young people need and is that going to see us through? So it feels like quite a big decision and we don't yet know how it will play out, but hopefully it's been the right decision. from that, was all about, okay, putting the young people first, they're our beneficiaries of our charity. They're the people we exist and serve to help essentially. So we looked at the reality of their digital lives, where generative AI is already having an impact on their lives. and the risks that come with it around, you know, wellbeing, bias, safety, deep fakes, misinformation, all of these things. And we feel like it's really important that we help to educate young people about those things. But also we want to do it in a way that doesn't lose our mission. You know, we have this real focus on social innovation and for good, know, apps for good. That's what we do. So this new course, it won't lose any of that, but it was kind of about really thinking differently about what do our young people really need, you know, what is already happening in the rest of the market? Do we still have a unique proposition? Are we going to, you know, appeal to our teachers? Are we adding value for the young people? And it was a real team effort. And I touched on that earlier, didn't I? That kind of creativity for me in the workplace is very much about bringing the team's brains together and, you know, working together creatively. we're as a charity, we're fully remote. So we all work in our houses all around the UK and we do come together in person every now and then. you know, so much of this collaborative work that we do is often done remotely. So making use of every kind of video call you can imagine, but also online tools that allow us to, you know, kind of do whiteboards and brain dumps and have loads of post notes, you know, the things that you would normally do in person, but doing them virtually. They really aid us to make good decisions and yeah, think quickly and test things and trial things. I think, yeah, we'll see how it plays out because we haven't launched the course yet, but it feels like it's been the right decision, you know, and the team have all come together to work really hard on it. And hopefully, yeah, we'll see that actually thinking a bit differently and being a bit more creative with our approach is going to be the right solution for our team, but also for our students. and yeah, kind of is the best outcome for everyone, hopefully.
The Creativity Question: I would love for you now. I was thinking about how brilliant it has been collaborating with you guys for the last, I think, three, four years now. can you talk about actually what Apps for Good does so that you know everyone who's watching or listening can actually check you out and maybe help? Or I don't know, getting in a partnership with you. I think it's really worth it. And I can testify as a Just a volunteer and an external member of the team. So I would love for you to tell us more about Apps for Good.
Natalie Moore: Yeah, definitely. we were an education technology charity. We have been around for about 15 years now. We just celebrated our 15th anniversary birthday, which is brilliant. I think we have a mission where we really believe that every young person should have the skills to thrive in this kind of ever changing world that exists. you know, you mentioned in my bio right at the start, that's something that's always been really important to me. When I left sixth form I knew I wanted to work in education in some way and I've carried that through in everything I've done and that's so absolutely at the heart of Absolute Good. Everybody in our team really believes in making a difference for young people. We work with schools, we partner with schools all across the UK and teachers essentially deliver our courses in their classrooms. So the course I was just talking about is AI for Good 2.0 because it's our brand new updated version. And essentially what happens in these courses is students work together in teams. They think about their local community, the wider world around them. They look at things like the UN Sustainable Development Goals. They look at topics like climate change and social action. And they relate that back to themselves, their families, their friends, their community. And they come up with a problem that they would really like to solve. And essentially they then follow the kind of product journey with that problem. So they take it from a problem to a working prototype of an app. And the idea is through that process, they're practicing real world industry kind of skills practice. They're developing what we call their essential skills. So they're working in teams, they're communicating, they're problem solving, they're being creative, know, often things that don't happen in classrooms and definitely don't always happen in a computing classroom. And whilst they're doing the essential skills, they are working on those digital skills. as well. So whether that is actually kind of learning to code or program or whether it's in our new course looking at vibe coding, so still being able to understand code but also working on their prompting and really understanding how they can work with different tools. So they build a prototype and you know that prototype will range in how working it is. You know some of our students only get to a paper prototype but that is still brilliant to have been through that process and kind of got to a stage where they've got a product that they're really proud of. And throughout a course our students have the opportunity to pitch to industry volunteers like yourself Fabby. So we have a brilliant community of volunteers from some of our corporate partners and then also just brilliant people who have found us somewhere along the journey and our students have the opportunity to join essentially a video call and pitch their idea to those industry volunteers. The industry volunteers listen to them, they offer them some feedback They offer them some guidance and for the young people that's a brilliant experience and opportunity to have someone from industry hear them. know have their voice heard by someone who isn't just their teacher or isn't their parent but you know someone who actually works in industry is listening to them and giving them some insights and feedback and also some general career inspiration as well right. It's really important to hear what it's like to work in a job as a developer, a software engineer, in marketing, in product and it really gives our young people some real insight into kind of what the working world is like and hopefully inspires them that they can go on and do that. So that's kind of how our courses work at the end of each course. We have our annual showcase which is where we see all of the brilliant products come to life. Some of them that I've already mentioned but yeah for us as a charity and for me personally we really try to focus on students who are maybe more underrepresented in the kind of tech sector or in the working world and we focus on schools who may be operating in more challenging circumstances and everything we offer for our schools is completely free so we're a charity and we're funded by corporate partners and trusts and foundations but yes if anyone listening is keen to get involved
The Creativity Question: Mm.
Natalie Moore: in any way then you know we're always looking more volunteers who can give our students some feedback and insights. We're also obviously always looking for funders and supporters so yeah hopefully that's told you a bit more about who we are and what we do but we're yeah always happy to have conversations with people who might be interested.
The Creativity Question: Thank you. And I can testify being a volunteer is really fun and it's incredibly rewarding because you meet kids who are so brilliant and so interesting. And like you said, Natalie, they did inspire me in my day job many times because they just sparked a question or they just sparked some more curiosity about something. And it is I I I would honestly recommend it to anyone who would love to to get involved. And yeah, please get in touch with Natalie if you can. And now, since you are so involved with young people, we have always a a question for our guests, which is what would you what what's your advice to young people? What is it that you also wish you'd known maybe 10, 20 years ago? no, twenty, no, you're too young for twenty years ago. but yeah, what would you tell them? I mean, it imagine talking to Freya and what would you tell her if she was fifteen, seventeen now?
Natalie Moore: Yeah. I think I am old enough to go back 20 years sadly, but I think I would probably say to stay curious and it's something that I think I try to do still now and you know, the learning journey never ends just because I have the title of CEO. It doesn't mean I know everything and I can learn a lot from the people around me. So I think yeah, staying curious that allows you to solve problems, to be creative if you're kind of constantly learning. learning and observing and asking questions. You know, I think that's so important. Sometimes Freya drives me mad asking me so many questions because she's in that phase where she's asking why or what's this mummy? But actually we then lose that but we should ask why and we should want to learn more. So think staying curious is definitely something I would tell my younger self to do. I think for me and this is something I have to remind myself of even now. my age, it's like make time for thinking, you know, give yourself that time to take a step back, reflect, you know, remove the barriers and think. I think for me in my day to day it's so easy to go from meeting to meeting and feel like you're ticking things off your list but you're never really tackling that big problem or that big challenge. So I think I've got much better recently at blocking time in my calendar where you know, it's deep thinking time or whatever that time is to take some of the noise away and really give your brain some space to kind of focus and yeah, be creative and think about those big problems because I think sometimes you do need to just set time aside for thinking and yeah, not always being controlled by the 10,000 things you've got on your to-do list that you need to get done by next week, but actually think you know sometimes it's worth putting in that time and effort to take a step back, reflect, think of it differently and I think something I find helpful and again would say probably to my younger self is when you're doing that reflection and that big thinking or you need to give yourself some space to problem solve, to be creative that a change of environment really helps as well. think sometimes just getting outside you know going outside not being in front of a laptop no technology with you but just getting outside and allowing your brain to kind of see things differently and and think differently about things suddenly yeah probably makes you keep that creativity like alive a little bit more and something I think I do now and it actually started for a different reason but I'm one of those people that if I go to bed and there's something on my mind I will think about it and think about it and think about it and I someone once told me take a notepad to bed with you so you can write those things down so you're not worrying about them all night. but i've actually found more recently sometimes whether it's late at night or first thing in the morning i kind of wake up with a brilliant idea and you know you want to write it down somewhere so think that's something that i feel like sometimes i do my best thinking when i should be sleeping but it's like your mind comes alive and you have these ideas and you want to document them and put them down but yeah and i think probably just don't limit your potential you know if I had said to myself when I was 18 starting that first job never being at university I definitely wouldn't have seen myself as a CEO now how old am I? I think I'm 36 I'm gonna be 37 soon I would never have seen myself as a CEO by that age and I think I probably wouldn't have seen myself as a CEO by any age and I don't think I had that confidence or belief in myself and I think it's really important to believe in yourself and allow others to believe in you too and boost you and I think those kind of beliefs allow you to be creative as well you know if I'd continue to sit here and just say well you're not I'm not arty I'm not creative you know I just can't do it and it's not it's not true I think as we said right at the start everybody has that within themselves so you know don't be told that you're not a certain type of person by a teacher or by a parent or by anyone you know if believe you can do something I think that is really important and yeah kind of don't limit your potential by kind of putting yourself in a box and saying oh no I'm not that person because I do really believe that everyone has those skills within us and I think as the world continues to change and technology continues to change those human skills are going to be more vital than ever and I think creativity is a big one of those that we can't lose you know we can't let technology take that away from us I think we need our humans to to drive that.
The Creativity Question: that's such a nice thought. I love the iPad idea. Not the iPad, the pad idea by
Natalie Moore: You
The Creativity Question: the bed. I I think it's a genius idea, actually. That's so true. You have ideas when you're almost falling asleep, and I never have something where I can write it. It's such a it's true. It's so true. That's
Natalie Moore: Yep.
The Creativity Question: such good advice. I would add to that as well. lately, I was a very, very, very avid reader when I was young. I read I don't know how many books. I I was constantly reading and then over the years, bit of work, bit of other things, I kind of lost that kind capacity for concentration. And now I'm picking it up. And I find that that's
Natalie Moore: good.
The Creativity Question: also a great source of inspiration. You know, books read books about everything, about fiction, about stories, fantasy, science fiction, whatever it is that you like, you will find yourself, first of all, entertained, which is always a good thing in life. And also it surprisingly gives you ideas when you least expect it, because you're immersed in such a a nice environment in that moment that, you know, every time we are taken away from something, we we get that idea that we're looking for. And another thing is going for walks. I walk a lot in the morning with my dogs in in the evening. And that's also a very good source of ideas. When you just don't think about anything and just walk and enjoy the environment and the birds and the noise around you. That's also very good. So I agree with you. Like we should all keep our humanity because that's that's where creativity is.
Natalie Moore: yeah it's so true and i i really need to get back into reading books as well i used to read a lot and then honestly since since i had my little girl i don't think i've ever managed to finish a book but it's something i do and i should do it i think i should do it before bed because it's easy to scroll on your phone isn't it or get caught up in other things but yeah i agree reading reading is brilliant for kind of just letting your mind escape and then you yeah from that you then bring
The Creativity Question: Absolutely.
Natalie Moore: bring ideas back don't you yeah
The Creativity Question: Awesome. So well we are we're at the end of our conversation more or less, but where can people find you and apps for good? I will also insert all the details on the website, of course, and on Instagram and on LinkedIn, but can you please tell them so that they can find you?
Natalie Moore: Yeah, so best place to find apps for good is on our website. So it's www.appsforgood.org and yeah, you'll be able to see all of our kind of students ideas on there from the recent showcase and also what you'll see how you can connect with us if you want to volunteer or again, maybe you're a teacher or you have a friend who's a teacher and you want the school to deliver our courses. So yeah, go into our website. You'll also find our social media channels and then yeah, for my please do find me on LinkedIn Natalie Moore I do have a common name but hopefully you can you can put the link to my LinkedIn as well Fabby but yeah I'd be more than happy to connect with people and see yeah if there's any collaboration we can do with different people so yeah that's the best place to find us
The Creativity Question: We will make sure that it happens. And I honestly highly recommend people to volunteer with you guys to get in touch. It's a great company and a great initiative and everything is so nice. Everyone is super helpful. And you will find yourself also being a better person, which is always a nice thing. but anyway, thank you for joining us, Dassalie, and thank you for everything. It was a lovely, lovely conversation. And I'll see you soon.
Natalie Moore: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
The Creativity Question: Bye.
Natalie Moore: Bye.
Natalie Moore: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and have this conversation.
The Creativity Question: I am very excited to have this conversation with you, Natalie, because all the people who have been here before are strictly speaking creative. So kind of, you know, people who are asked to be creative all the time. But I have this firm conviction that creativity is part of everyone's mindset and everyone's life. I'm particularly happy to have you here because you do a completely different job. But I think that creativity can translate in many, many ways. So thank you for being here. And let's start with our first question. that is always, you know, the same. And it's Natalie, what does creativity mean to you?
Natalie Moore: well i think it's funny that you you just said that because i think if you'd asked me yeah 10 15 years ago i probably would have said that i'm not a creative type i shouldn't be on this podcast because i'm you know i'm not creative and yeah i'd never seen myself i guess as arty when i was growing up and in school i did love things like dance and and sport but you know i was never the one choreographing dance routines i wasn't the one that had that creative
The Creativity Question: Mm-hmm.
Natalie Moore: brain that's what i would say But I think you know as I've gained more experience of the working world and more exposure to different environments different people I've actually learned that creativity is everywhere as you said and it is in every role in every type of career and I think that's then probably changed the meaning of it for me, know, and I it's not just this kind of abstract thing that sits in a certain place and you're creative but you're not or you're arty and you're not but actually it's very much about I guess problem solving, know, creativity is a problem solving tool and I think that's something that we see all the time at Apps for Goods, the charity that I run, you know, it's all about young people and giving them agency to act and influence and shape their world and social innovation but you can't do that without being creative so I think, you know, Yeah, had this been a podcast we were doing 10-15 years ago, I probably would have said, oh, I don't know, I'm not creative. But actually, think, yeah, over the years, that's changed so, so much for me. And I think what I see most often, probably even in myself now, is that that creativity often comes in that really messy bit when you're like tackling a problem, you know, you don't know what direction to go in, you feel quite stuck and you have to take a moment, reflect, think differently, bring other people into the conversation and kind of navigate that problem to get to a solution. I think that is all about being creative and kind of making your brain work in a different way and being challenged. And I think that's so important as a skill that everybody should learn. And it is a human skill. I think there's a lot of talk in our world at Apps for Good, in the education, the technology sector about AI and other technology tools, which obviously in many ways I'm a huge advocate absolutely but I think those tools only work best with a creative human behind them you know that that is what's gonna do the job and make them work well together as teammates rather than you know that tech tool isn't gonna solve everybody's problem so I think yeah there there is a real kind of focus on human creativity being a human skill and needing that to bring something to life and solve a problem and it's something we see you know as AptoGood we work with young people every academic year and you know this really well Fabby but the end of the year we have our annual showcase and we invite all of our student teams to share the problems and that they've been working on and show the products that they've created and it blows me away you know seeing the creativity that these young people have they think outside of the box that sometimes as you grow up and mature you kind of put everything in a box and and you don't think like that and yeah I think for me that's really bought kind of creativity. to life and actually when you look at a problem with no boundaries and allow yourself to really think big you can then kind of focus in and get to a solution. So yeah I think I've learned a lot about creativity over the last few years and that actually what you're sometimes taught creativity is at school you know I think I was probably even told by teachers you're not very creative and actually I think everyone has it in them in different ways and it's about bringing it to life and yeah using that creativity to solve the problems that are important to you or your work and take that forward.
The Creativity Question: I profoundly agree with this. I think that creativity is all about solving problems. And this is even a quote by Einstein, I think. I think he used to say that creativity is the ability to find a solution. And it is a shame that sometimes we've been told by our educators you're not very creative, because that is really a biased thought. And it really also then shapes the future of. the students in a direction that probably could have been different if they didn't hear that. So I really agree with that. And thank you for sharing your your opinion and and your experience. So I'm I always also am very interested in people's influences and how these influences have shaped your thoughts and how the definition of creativity has changed over time. I mean you told us already a little bit about that, but would you mind to expand on that as well?
Natalie Moore: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's probably a few different kind of spheres of influence in my kind of life that have impacted me in different ways when it comes to thinking about creativity. And one of them is probably my journey as a professional, I suppose. You mentioned that, you know, I didn't go to university. I started my first job at the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games straight out of sixth form. Very young and naive to the world of work, but actually learnt a lot very quickly and then when I joined up so good back in 2013 so a long time ago now 13 years ago I was in quite a junior role but over the years I've been able to take on more responsibility and kind of one where about every different hat that exists in the company so I've tried every job role but you know I've ended up as CEO and I think that's been a huge learning journey for me particularly when it comes to kind of creativity and I think something I've learned and hopefully my team agree with this in the way I manage the charity is that Creativity and isn't just down to one person, you know It doesn't just happen over there in one side of the office or one side of the room But for me, I think I've learned how you can bring a group of diverse minds diverse people together And that's when creativity really comes to life when you're kind of bouncing ideas off of each other Creating that culture of group thinking and you know it everyone's problem you know it's not just down to the fundraiser to work out how we're going to fundraise but we all come together and think about it or if we're thinking about the new course that we might launch the next academic year we get everybody's opinion and I think that's something that I've probably learnt that you know if there are times where I feel like I'm struggling with this problem or I'm not feeling so creative bring the team together let's hear everyone's voices and actually you know once once someone shares one idea it goes from there and I love that idea. and we tell this to our students as well that like no idea is a bad idea because I think that's something that's really important and easier to do in a smaller organization where you can try and fail quite quickly and move on and pivot and do something different. So I think that's probably something that's really, yeah, taught me kind of what creativity is and that actually I probably am quite creative and if I'm not feeling so, I've got the ability to coach and bring people together to get us to that sort of solution. I mean I touched on our students already but they're a huge influence on my approach to kind of creativity and what I feel about creativity. think you know just seeing the ideas and you see this as well Fabi that these young people come up with when you're talking to them you know we I think it just blows me away. I think when I was their age I'm sure I didn't have ideas like that but maybe I did and I think you kind of over time as I said they get kind of watered down a little bit but I Yeah, they've shown me what it is really like to kind of tackle big problems. You know, some of our students when they're working on their apps for good ideas, they're tackling huge issues like racism, immigration, know, and gender bias. All of these huge themes that are all over our kind of country and the world and in politics right now. But these young people take a unique view on it and have a really creative solution to it. So I sometimes think we should have more of our students in government, you know, doing doing that work because they have the ability to think differently and be really creative. I think also what I love with our students is sometimes we then talk to some of our industry volunteers and professionals, people like you Fabby who say they learnt loads from the students as well. They had the opportunity to reflect on how they can be more creative in their day to day work and think differently. So I think that's probably something that has changed my perspective and still every single year they told really blow me away with the ideas that they come up with but i think something that's a bit a bit more personal i suppose to me rather than work focused but i have a three and a half year old daughter and i mean having her probably has changed my look on the world in general in so many different ways but i think what i love about seeing freya my little girl just the way she sees the world it's just so differently and it is so creative you know i think she'll have a pile of rubbish that needs to be taken out to the recycling bin and she'll pick
The Creativity Question: Mm.
Natalie Moore: it up and be like, mommy can I make binoculars with this? Can I make a telescope? I'm going to colour this in and I think, you know, for me that was just rubbish that was annoying and I had to put it in the bin but she just has this... yeah it's like it's amazing that she's got this bit of cardboard and she can turn it into something so i think bringing that like imagination and creativity together is so exciting at that age and i think seeing that is allowing me to like relive those years and see the sort of wonder that that children see in everyday life and actually when i was kind of prepping for this podcast and having a talk with the team laura and our team mentioned a book that she's been reading at the moment that i really want to read myself it's called the book of magical living by poppy Jamie and in there it says a four-year-old spots ten more details than the average adult so they see the beauty and difference in the ordinary and I think that's so true with my little girl I see that all the time where she is kind of just sees things differently and then yeah has that spark and that creativity to turn a really boring dull object into something that she plays with with for hours,
The Creativity Question: Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Moore: know, people joke about it, don't they, when you buy the children all of the Christmas presents and they're more interested in the wrapping paper and the boxes. But it's
The Creativity Question: Yeah.
Natalie Moore: so true. And I think that seeing that in real life with my own little girl has really made me again, like reflect on, yeah, you can be creative with limited resource. And, you know, it's just about removing some of those barriers and just thinking a bit differently and stepping away. So, yeah, that's probably gone on a bit of a tangent there. But they're probably the things around me that I like in the last yeah few years have kind of shifted my view and perspective and I hope I can be more like Freya and hang on to that energy that she has and remind myself of that because I think it is so important and definitely then I bring that into my working life as well and can kind of look at things differently.
The Creativity Question: I think that that's such a true vision of creativity because I try to keep my reminding myself how I was when I was younger or when I was even a child, because it's absolutely true that they see everything in a different way and they are more open to solutions. That's the thing. They are more open. And you're right, when I worked with you guys and I volunteered and I met all these students. I keep meeting these students all the time. And they do have a sensitivity and a perception that is so much more subtle and more insightful than most adults. some of them presented apps where they were helping mental health issues, they were trying to solve mental health issues. Or they were trying to reassure young girls and boys about their physical aspects. It's it's so much deeper than the conversation that adults and like you said, politicians are having even, you know, they we should definitely give young people a lot more credit and a lot more space in society. Because I think that the bias that that grow with us in in every job just you know, just shape us in a way that block everybody in a way. So I
Natalie Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The Creativity Question: I think that that's really true. And and I'm sure that you'll learn even more from Vreya and and from all the students you work with. and actually about that, tell us your moments of breakthrough or struggle or all at the same time that you went through.
Natalie Moore: Yeah, so I think it's really it's interesting, you know, manage managing a charity because we're a small charity. We have a small team with often very limited resource and budget, you know, and we we try to do a lot with a little sometimes, you know, it's kind of like we yeah,
The Creativity Question: Yeah, of course.
Natalie Moore: which I know is is true of many organizations. So I think we often have to really think creativity creatively about how we're spending our money about you know what we're going to do next what we're going to prioritize but I think you know for us something that we've been focusing on now for the last I guess maybe say about six months is with with the the rise of AI essentially you know it does change some of the the courses that we currently offer to schools and whilst the curriculum is still or the curriculum in the UK is still catching up with AI and the progress in technology we don't want to leave our students behind so we've had to kind of take a step back and for the last few years we've had multiple different courses at the same time and we had this real kind of moment yeah probably about six months or so ago now where we were like right what are we going to do going forward you know AI use is increasing we need to prepare our young people for the world of work that's we can't even predict what it will look like but we know that they're not going to be prepared if we just continue teaching what we're currently teaching so yeah we've kind of decided to completely redesign our approach to our course content going from having three different courses to just having one as of next year that we're launching in August which is really exciting we're starting to see it come to life but that was a big decision in itself you know and it was a bit of a moment of breakthrough and we had to be really brave as well to kind of think okay we've got used to this way of working our teachers are used to this way of working our partners and funders are used to this way of working but actually is that what our young people need and is that going to see us through? So it feels like quite a big decision and we don't yet know how it will play out, but hopefully it's been the right decision. from that, was all about, okay, putting the young people first, they're our beneficiaries of our charity. They're the people we exist and serve to help essentially. So we looked at the reality of their digital lives, where generative AI is already having an impact on their lives. and the risks that come with it around, you know, wellbeing, bias, safety, deep fakes, misinformation, all of these things. And we feel like it's really important that we help to educate young people about those things. But also we want to do it in a way that doesn't lose our mission. You know, we have this real focus on social innovation and for good, know, apps for good. That's what we do. So this new course, it won't lose any of that, but it was kind of about really thinking differently about what do our young people really need, you know, what is already happening in the rest of the market? Do we still have a unique proposition? Are we going to, you know, appeal to our teachers? Are we adding value for the young people? And it was a real team effort. And I touched on that earlier, didn't I? That kind of creativity for me in the workplace is very much about bringing the team's brains together and, you know, working together creatively. we're as a charity, we're fully remote. So we all work in our houses all around the UK and we do come together in person every now and then. you know, so much of this collaborative work that we do is often done remotely. So making use of every kind of video call you can imagine, but also online tools that allow us to, you know, kind of do whiteboards and brain dumps and have loads of post notes, you know, the things that you would normally do in person, but doing them virtually. They really aid us to make good decisions and yeah, think quickly and test things and trial things. I think, yeah, we'll see how it plays out because we haven't launched the course yet, but it feels like it's been the right decision, you know, and the team have all come together to work really hard on it. And hopefully, yeah, we'll see that actually thinking a bit differently and being a bit more creative with our approach is going to be the right solution for our team, but also for our students. and yeah, kind of is the best outcome for everyone, hopefully.
The Creativity Question: I would love for you now. I was thinking about how brilliant it has been collaborating with you guys for the last, I think, three, four years now. can you talk about actually what Apps for Good does so that you know everyone who's watching or listening can actually check you out and maybe help? Or I don't know, getting in a partnership with you. I think it's really worth it. And I can testify as a Just a volunteer and an external member of the team. So I would love for you to tell us more about Apps for Good.
Natalie Moore: Yeah, definitely. we were an education technology charity. We have been around for about 15 years now. We just celebrated our 15th anniversary birthday, which is brilliant. I think we have a mission where we really believe that every young person should have the skills to thrive in this kind of ever changing world that exists. you know, you mentioned in my bio right at the start, that's something that's always been really important to me. When I left sixth form I knew I wanted to work in education in some way and I've carried that through in everything I've done and that's so absolutely at the heart of Absolute Good. Everybody in our team really believes in making a difference for young people. We work with schools, we partner with schools all across the UK and teachers essentially deliver our courses in their classrooms. So the course I was just talking about is AI for Good 2.0 because it's our brand new updated version. And essentially what happens in these courses is students work together in teams. They think about their local community, the wider world around them. They look at things like the UN Sustainable Development Goals. They look at topics like climate change and social action. And they relate that back to themselves, their families, their friends, their community. And they come up with a problem that they would really like to solve. And essentially they then follow the kind of product journey with that problem. So they take it from a problem to a working prototype of an app. And the idea is through that process, they're practicing real world industry kind of skills practice. They're developing what we call their essential skills. So they're working in teams, they're communicating, they're problem solving, they're being creative, know, often things that don't happen in classrooms and definitely don't always happen in a computing classroom. And whilst they're doing the essential skills, they are working on those digital skills. as well. So whether that is actually kind of learning to code or program or whether it's in our new course looking at vibe coding, so still being able to understand code but also working on their prompting and really understanding how they can work with different tools. So they build a prototype and you know that prototype will range in how working it is. You know some of our students only get to a paper prototype but that is still brilliant to have been through that process and kind of got to a stage where they've got a product that they're really proud of. And throughout a course our students have the opportunity to pitch to industry volunteers like yourself Fabby. So we have a brilliant community of volunteers from some of our corporate partners and then also just brilliant people who have found us somewhere along the journey and our students have the opportunity to join essentially a video call and pitch their idea to those industry volunteers. The industry volunteers listen to them, they offer them some feedback They offer them some guidance and for the young people that's a brilliant experience and opportunity to have someone from industry hear them. know have their voice heard by someone who isn't just their teacher or isn't their parent but you know someone who actually works in industry is listening to them and giving them some insights and feedback and also some general career inspiration as well right. It's really important to hear what it's like to work in a job as a developer, a software engineer, in marketing, in product and it really gives our young people some real insight into kind of what the working world is like and hopefully inspires them that they can go on and do that. So that's kind of how our courses work at the end of each course. We have our annual showcase which is where we see all of the brilliant products come to life. Some of them that I've already mentioned but yeah for us as a charity and for me personally we really try to focus on students who are maybe more underrepresented in the kind of tech sector or in the working world and we focus on schools who may be operating in more challenging circumstances and everything we offer for our schools is completely free so we're a charity and we're funded by corporate partners and trusts and foundations but yes if anyone listening is keen to get involved
The Creativity Question: Mm.
Natalie Moore: in any way then you know we're always looking more volunteers who can give our students some feedback and insights. We're also obviously always looking for funders and supporters so yeah hopefully that's told you a bit more about who we are and what we do but we're yeah always happy to have conversations with people who might be interested.
The Creativity Question: Thank you. And I can testify being a volunteer is really fun and it's incredibly rewarding because you meet kids who are so brilliant and so interesting. And like you said, Natalie, they did inspire me in my day job many times because they just sparked a question or they just sparked some more curiosity about something. And it is I I I would honestly recommend it to anyone who would love to to get involved. And yeah, please get in touch with Natalie if you can. And now, since you are so involved with young people, we have always a a question for our guests, which is what would you what what's your advice to young people? What is it that you also wish you'd known maybe 10, 20 years ago? no, twenty, no, you're too young for twenty years ago. but yeah, what would you tell them? I mean, it imagine talking to Freya and what would you tell her if she was fifteen, seventeen now?
Natalie Moore: Yeah. I think I am old enough to go back 20 years sadly, but I think I would probably say to stay curious and it's something that I think I try to do still now and you know, the learning journey never ends just because I have the title of CEO. It doesn't mean I know everything and I can learn a lot from the people around me. So I think yeah, staying curious that allows you to solve problems, to be creative if you're kind of constantly learning. learning and observing and asking questions. You know, I think that's so important. Sometimes Freya drives me mad asking me so many questions because she's in that phase where she's asking why or what's this mummy? But actually we then lose that but we should ask why and we should want to learn more. So think staying curious is definitely something I would tell my younger self to do. I think for me and this is something I have to remind myself of even now. my age, it's like make time for thinking, you know, give yourself that time to take a step back, reflect, you know, remove the barriers and think. I think for me in my day to day it's so easy to go from meeting to meeting and feel like you're ticking things off your list but you're never really tackling that big problem or that big challenge. So I think I've got much better recently at blocking time in my calendar where you know, it's deep thinking time or whatever that time is to take some of the noise away and really give your brain some space to kind of focus and yeah, be creative and think about those big problems because I think sometimes you do need to just set time aside for thinking and yeah, not always being controlled by the 10,000 things you've got on your to-do list that you need to get done by next week, but actually think you know sometimes it's worth putting in that time and effort to take a step back, reflect, think of it differently and I think something I find helpful and again would say probably to my younger self is when you're doing that reflection and that big thinking or you need to give yourself some space to problem solve, to be creative that a change of environment really helps as well. think sometimes just getting outside you know going outside not being in front of a laptop no technology with you but just getting outside and allowing your brain to kind of see things differently and and think differently about things suddenly yeah probably makes you keep that creativity like alive a little bit more and something I think I do now and it actually started for a different reason but I'm one of those people that if I go to bed and there's something on my mind I will think about it and think about it and think about it and I someone once told me take a notepad to bed with you so you can write those things down so you're not worrying about them all night. but i've actually found more recently sometimes whether it's late at night or first thing in the morning i kind of wake up with a brilliant idea and you know you want to write it down somewhere so think that's something that i feel like sometimes i do my best thinking when i should be sleeping but it's like your mind comes alive and you have these ideas and you want to document them and put them down but yeah and i think probably just don't limit your potential you know if I had said to myself when I was 18 starting that first job never being at university I definitely wouldn't have seen myself as a CEO now how old am I? I think I'm 36 I'm gonna be 37 soon I would never have seen myself as a CEO by that age and I think I probably wouldn't have seen myself as a CEO by any age and I don't think I had that confidence or belief in myself and I think it's really important to believe in yourself and allow others to believe in you too and boost you and I think those kind of beliefs allow you to be creative as well you know if I'd continue to sit here and just say well you're not I'm not arty I'm not creative you know I just can't do it and it's not it's not true I think as we said right at the start everybody has that within themselves so you know don't be told that you're not a certain type of person by a teacher or by a parent or by anyone you know if believe you can do something I think that is really important and yeah kind of don't limit your potential by kind of putting yourself in a box and saying oh no I'm not that person because I do really believe that everyone has those skills within us and I think as the world continues to change and technology continues to change those human skills are going to be more vital than ever and I think creativity is a big one of those that we can't lose you know we can't let technology take that away from us I think we need our humans to to drive that.
The Creativity Question: that's such a nice thought. I love the iPad idea. Not the iPad, the pad idea by
Natalie Moore: You
The Creativity Question: the bed. I I think it's a genius idea, actually. That's so true. You have ideas when you're almost falling asleep, and I never have something where I can write it. It's such a it's true. It's so true. That's
Natalie Moore: Yep.
The Creativity Question: such good advice. I would add to that as well. lately, I was a very, very, very avid reader when I was young. I read I don't know how many books. I I was constantly reading and then over the years, bit of work, bit of other things, I kind of lost that kind capacity for concentration. And now I'm picking it up. And I find that that's
Natalie Moore: good.
The Creativity Question: also a great source of inspiration. You know, books read books about everything, about fiction, about stories, fantasy, science fiction, whatever it is that you like, you will find yourself, first of all, entertained, which is always a good thing in life. And also it surprisingly gives you ideas when you least expect it, because you're immersed in such a a nice environment in that moment that, you know, every time we are taken away from something, we we get that idea that we're looking for. And another thing is going for walks. I walk a lot in the morning with my dogs in in the evening. And that's also a very good source of ideas. When you just don't think about anything and just walk and enjoy the environment and the birds and the noise around you. That's also very good. So I agree with you. Like we should all keep our humanity because that's that's where creativity is.
Natalie Moore: yeah it's so true and i i really need to get back into reading books as well i used to read a lot and then honestly since since i had my little girl i don't think i've ever managed to finish a book but it's something i do and i should do it i think i should do it before bed because it's easy to scroll on your phone isn't it or get caught up in other things but yeah i agree reading reading is brilliant for kind of just letting your mind escape and then you yeah from that you then bring
The Creativity Question: Absolutely.
Natalie Moore: bring ideas back don't you yeah
The Creativity Question: Awesome. So well we are we're at the end of our conversation more or less, but where can people find you and apps for good? I will also insert all the details on the website, of course, and on Instagram and on LinkedIn, but can you please tell them so that they can find you?
Natalie Moore: Yeah, so best place to find apps for good is on our website. So it's www.appsforgood.org and yeah, you'll be able to see all of our kind of students ideas on there from the recent showcase and also what you'll see how you can connect with us if you want to volunteer or again, maybe you're a teacher or you have a friend who's a teacher and you want the school to deliver our courses. So yeah, go into our website. You'll also find our social media channels and then yeah, for my please do find me on LinkedIn Natalie Moore I do have a common name but hopefully you can you can put the link to my LinkedIn as well Fabby but yeah I'd be more than happy to connect with people and see yeah if there's any collaboration we can do with different people so yeah that's the best place to find us
The Creativity Question: We will make sure that it happens. And I honestly highly recommend people to volunteer with you guys to get in touch. It's a great company and a great initiative and everything is so nice. Everyone is super helpful. And you will find yourself also being a better person, which is always a nice thing. but anyway, thank you for joining us, Dassalie, and thank you for everything. It was a lovely, lovely conversation. And I'll see you soon.
Natalie Moore: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
The Creativity Question: Bye.
Natalie Moore: Bye.
