The Problem with Grades

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JOHN: Traditional grading
systems encourage students to
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focus on final grades, sometimes
at the expense of learning.
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In this episode, students
share their reactions to and
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experiences with traditional
and alternative grading systems.
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[MUSIC]
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Thanks for joining us for Tea for
Teaching, an informal discussion
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of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
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REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist…
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JOHN: …and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer…
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REBECCA: …and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
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to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
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[MUSIC]
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Our guests today are Jessamyn Neuhaus,
Ashley Cambareri, and Cole Bailey.
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Jessamyn is the Director of the
Center for Teaching and Learning
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Excellence and Professor in the School
of Education at Syracuse University.
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She is an historian and editor of
Teaching History: A Journal of Methods.
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Jessamyn has published extensively in
scholarly publications in the areas of
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history, pedagogy, and cultural studies.
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She is a recipient of the SUNY
Chancellor’s Award for Teaching.
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Jessamyn is the author of several books,
including Geeky Pedagogy: A Guide for
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Intellectuals, Introverts, and Nerds
Who Want to be Effective Teachers,
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Snafu Edu: Teaching and Learning When
Things Go Wrong in the College Classroom
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and she is the editor of Picture a
Professor: Interrupting Biases about
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Faculty and Increasing Student Learning.
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Ashley graduated in May as an honors
student with a degree in Inclusive
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Elementary and Special Education from
the School of Education at Syracuse
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University, and will begin her new job
as a 5th-grade teacher this September.
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Cole is a student in the Renée Crown
Honors Program at Syracuse University,
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studying International relations.
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Ashley and Cole were students
in Jessamyn’s Honors class
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on “Problems with Grades.”
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Welcome, Ashley and Cole,
and welcome back, Jessamyn.
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JESSAMYN: Thank you for having us
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ASHLEY: Yeah, thank you.
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COLE: Happy to be here.
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Thank you.
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JOHN: Thank you all for joining us.
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Today's teas are:… Jessamyn.
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Are you drinking any tea?
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JESSAMYN: No, I forgot,
like a noob… [LAUGHTER]
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REBECCA: What?
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JESSAMYN: You’d think this is
my first time [LAUGHTER] I know.
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I totally forgot.
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JOHN: One of our most
frequent guests… [LAUGHTER]
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JESSAMYN: [LAUGHTER] Nope, nothing.
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JOHN: Okay, Ashley?
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ASHLEY: Yes, I'm not drinking tea
currently, but with it being the summer,
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I've been drinking lots of iced tea,
and my mom likes to make iced tea,
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and so I'll use her iced tea and add
like peach juice or some mint sprigs.
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So I've been drinking a lot
of tea, but not right now.
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REBECCA: So fancy iced tea.
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ASHLEY: Yes, I like to
make it a little bit fancy.
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[LAUGHTER] Yeah.
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JOHN: And Cole, are you drinking any tea?
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COLE: Currently drinking coffee.
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REBECCA: There's one in every crowd, Cole.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: At least one.
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REBECCA: Yeah.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: And Rebecca?
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REBECCA: I have Zen today.
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I have Zen.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: That's not like you.
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[LAUGHTER]
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REBECCA: That's not like me.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: Today
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I have a Darjeeling tea.
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REBECCA: See, we're both
switching it up a little, John.
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JOHN: We are.
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REBECCA: We've invited you all here today
to discuss your honors class on “Problems
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with Grades.” Can you tell us a little
bit about this one-credit SSAMYN: Sure.
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There were eight students total.
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We met once a week.
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It was a one credit class.
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The students came from a variety of
profirst-yeara range of where they were
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in terms of their degree completion.
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Cole was a first year student, and
we had some all through seniors,
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and like Ashley, who graduated.
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We had a primary text.
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We used Joshua Eyler's book Failing
Our Future: How Grades Harm Students
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and What We Can Do About It.
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We know that book.
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It's a great one.
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[LAUGHTER]
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JOHN: And you recently all
presented on this at a conference.
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Where was that conference?
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JESSAMYN: That was the Grading Conference.
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It happens virtually every
year, and we did a student panel
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reflections on the course, and I
thought it went really, really well.
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I have been really pleased to facilitate
more student voices in the conversations
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about grading, and I'll pass the
mic to Ashley and Cole if they have
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anything to add about the conference.
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ASHLEY: Yeah, sure.
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I really enjoyed the conference.
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I think it was a great opportunity to
talk about the class and really get more
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holistic thoughts on the class and kind of
get to summarize my feelings, my thoughts,
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and share with people who are really
interested in grading and grading reform.
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So I really enjoyed the experience of
just kind of getting to chat with a
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couple of my classmates and with Professor
Neuhaus and share our experience.
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COLE: I agree with that.
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I really enjoyed the conference as
well because I can confidently say that
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Professor Neuhau's class was one of
my favorites, or probably my favorite
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class I took my entire freshman year.
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Definitely a highlight.
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So being able to reflect on that with my
peers was definitely a good experience.
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JOHN: And we saw reference to that, and
we wish we were there, but we weren't
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able to attend that conference this year.
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REBECCA: I'm really curious, Cole and
Ashley, how did you end up in this class?
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Is it one that you chose or one
that you were required to take?
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ASHLEY: Yeah, I can start with that.
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Yeah, so as honors students, we
are required to take a certain
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number of honors credits.
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Being in my senior year, I
had kind of saved some of my
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honors credits for my last year.
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I had a semester at the end where
I kind of had some wiggle room.
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Throughout my other semesters,
I was an education major,
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so studying to be a teacher.
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So I had a lot of field experience
and stuff like that that I
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needed to get into my schedule.
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So I had a few credits left in that last
semester that I needed to take care.
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So I was looking for little one-credit
honors classes, and “Problems
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with Grades” was one of them.
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And as an education major, it felt almost
like a no brainer to take that class.
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So I was really excited
to be able to do that.
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So it's kind of voluntary, but also
we're required to take certain honors
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classes, but we get to pick and choose
which ones we do based off what fits
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in our schedule, so this is one that
I definitely intentionally chose based
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off of the subject and my interest
in it and its relevance to my future.
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REBECCA: How about you, Cole?
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COLE: This was a chosen
class, not like required.
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Well, yeah, the honors college
requires you to take some.
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I was looking for a class, and
I just saw the description.
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I thought it was really interesting.
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I remember I was questioning whether
I should do it or not because I really
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had a small window of time between
this class and the following, like a
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10-minute window to get across campus.
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But I made it work, and I'm really
happy I made it work because
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this was a great experience.
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JOHN: What were the learning
outcomes for the course?
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What was the primary focus of the class?
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JESSAMYN: We had three
stated learning outcomes.
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First, the way I phrase it is: at
the end of the course, students
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will be able to successfully: 1.
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summarize the historical origin of
letter grades and describe several
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types of alternative grading systems; 2.
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explain some of the specific ways that
traditional grades can create obstacles
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to learning in school settings; and 3.
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articulate the meaning of grades
in defining and shaping your own
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education, including reflecting on
your experiences with collaborative
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grading in this seminar.
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REBECC: I know we've talked about this
on the podcast previously, but can
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you remind us of that recent history
of the traditional grading system?
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And then I'm really curious
to hear how students responded
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to learning that history.
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JESSAMYN: Okay, so I didn't know
there was going to be a pop quiz
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[LAUGHTER] here on the… [LAUGHTER]
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REBECCA: Sorry.
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JESSAMYN: historical.
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[LAUGHTER] The historical origin of
letter grades actually ended up being…
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and this was on me… it ended up being the
least kind of addressed one in the class.
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Joshua Eyler does discuss it in his
book briefly, and because it turned
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out the basic takeaway and the one that
really benefited our discussions the
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most was just the understanding that
it had been fairly recent and tied very
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closely to standardization, rating,
and ranking, and that there wasn't
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something kind of inherently, like I
always said, they weren't inscribed
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on tablets of stone and handed down by
God, this is the way we should do it.
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There is a history of it, and for me,
it really struck me that it was like
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teaching history of popular culture
in that something that all of us
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had taken for granted, all of us had
experienced in one way or another, but
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had never really critically examined
kind of the roots and causes of it.
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But I'll pass the mic to Ashley and Cole
and see what their perspectives are.
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ASHLEY: Yeah, I think the thing that
stood out to me the most while we were
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reading Joshua Eyler's book was learning
a little bit more about that history and
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learning that the history really came
from a system that was originally used
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to rank students and figure out kind
of where they were against each other.
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So rather than seeing,
okay, how effectively are
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they learning the outcomes?
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How effectively are they accomplishing
what we need them to accomplish?
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Or how on target are they with where
they should be at this grade level?
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It was really to see like who's number one
and who's at the bottom, type of thing.
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So I think it was fascinating to me to
see that we've used this system that
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was used to rank students as the same
system we're using to determine how
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well students are learning the content.
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I think it's interesting to really see
that we're kind of misusing it a little
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bit to figure out, like, okay, how well
is the student learning the content?
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That's not what it was originally about.
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So I think looking at the alternative
grading systems, it really showed
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me how much our original system
wasn't made to actually understand
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where students are at academically.
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COLE: Yeah, just like Ashley said, just
through the book, I definitely learned a
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lot about alternative forms of grading.
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Well, I mean that's what it was mainly
about, but the whole concept how the
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current education system kind of pits
students against one another, really just
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makes you wonder: like, is it truly for
the student, or is it like for the number?
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And because of that, I definitely did
enjoy this book, but I also enjoyed
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the discussions we had about it.
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JESSAMYN: What Cole just said was
definitely something that came up
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repeatedly when we were discussing
grading, and when students were discussing
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their own experiences with grading, and
was something I hadn't really expected,
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but was how frequently they talked about
just like Cole said, for being pitted
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against each other and in competition when
we know just as human beings, how much
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more we can learn when we feel safe and
supported in the learning environment.
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So that was definitely an unexpected
thing that I heard from students.
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Another unexpected and really heartening
thing that I heard from students as
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they reflected on their experiences with
grading, is that the potential harms
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of traditional grading really and truly
can be mitigated, if not eliminated,
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at least reduced, by good course design
and effective teaching practices.
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And conversely, the harms of traditional
grading can be really exacerbated by poor
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course design, lack of communication,
lack of trust with faculty members.
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The takeaway I really got about students'
grading experiences was that they can be
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very harmful, but that a lot of effective
teaching practices really do reduce
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the harms that students experience.
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JOHN: You've mentioned a little bit
about students' reactions to the grading
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systems as being overly competitive.
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Could you tell us a little bit
about how students reported their
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past experience with grading
systems leading up to this course?
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Had they experienced alternative
grading systems prior to this?
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JESSAMYN: So let me just frame it.
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These are very high-achieving honors
students, so as a group, they had enjoyed
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a lot of success in academic settings,
including earning very high grades.
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But they were readily able to identify
ways that traditional grading had
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caused them and their peers and their
friends a lot of stress, especially
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in terms of mental health and
self-esteem, and created obstacles
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to a sense of classroom community
and obstacles to their own learning.
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One thing I didn't expect was how
quickly students could identify how
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early grades start to have an impact
on their experiences in school.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, Cole and
Ashley, but I think everybody talked
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about becoming aware of grades
very early in elementary school.
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ASHLEY: Yeah, I think that's
definitely something that I
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spoke about a lot in the class.
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I talked a lot about my experiences
in later elementary school.
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It really, for me, started in
around fifth grade, I think.
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That was when I didn't make the
cutoff for advanced math, and
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I was really upset about it.
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And I saw a lot of my friends were
in advanced math, and I was put in
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regular math, and I was constantly
getting really good grades in
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regular math, and like really hoping
that I would be in advanced math.
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And of course, now a little bit of a
more grown age, I understand that I put
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a pressure on me that I didn't need to
have there, and really, as I grew into
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high school, I kind of realized that
as long as I was learning and learning
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in a way that was efficient for me, I
didn't need to be stressing myself out
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over these extremely high-level courses.
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And I think with that was the stress of
grades and making sure that I was getting
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grade in the '90s and seeing that if I
got a grade in the '80s on my science
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test in sixth grade, I came home crying.
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Those are things that my
mom would really try to say.
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Like, this is not about you.
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It might just be that your teacher
needs to reframe the way that she's
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teaching, or that there's just maybe
one concept that you're having a little
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bit of a difficult time understanding.
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It's not a reflection of who you are as
a learner, or putting that pressure on
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myself, and then also in middle school I
was really struggling with the competition
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aspect of it, and watching my friends
get grades that were higher than mine,
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or having teachers who kind of pitted
us against each other and made us feel
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like we had to compete for good grades.
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So I think the traditional grading system
definitely put that weight onto me and
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onto many of my peers, of: “okay, you
need to make this benchmark or else you're
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not a good student type of thing.” So I
think we talked a lot about alternative
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grading that kind of takes that stress
off of getting a number grade that
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defined exactly how well you learned,
and rather having it be a more formative
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process, more throughout the unit or
throughout whatever you're learning about.
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“Okay, let's check in at this point, or
check in at this point, or let's use these
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standards and see how well you're meeting
each standard and how we can further your
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learning and get you to the place that
you need to be.” Rather than “we're at
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the end of the unit, here's your grade.
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This shows how well you learned
it or how well you didn’t.”
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COLE: I agree with that.
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I'm pretty sure I mentioned this in class
at some point, but up until third grade,
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I went to a school that specialized first
with students with a dyslexia and ADHD.
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And it was after that summer I
transitioned to a regular, I guess,
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public school in my local area.
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And I remember at a very young age having
to do a bunch of extra work trying to
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keep up with my peers, especially in
high school, it was very competitive
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because I started taking AP classes, and
you could definitely see the difference
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–not just in the coursework, but also
with the students taking the classes.
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Like some students were quite
braggadocious about being in a
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higher-level class, but overall,
I do think the current grading
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system definitely can be toxic.
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00:15:26,349 --> 00:15:29,059
REBECCA: It's interesting when I'm
listening to both of you talk because I
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00:15:29,079 --> 00:15:32,730
have a daughter who's just leaving third
grade and headed into fourth grade, and
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I'm hearing some of these same kinds
of things like bubble up in her world
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too because they're receiving graded
materials back, but interestingly, the
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00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:47,449
school itself uses a four-point system,
like exceeds, meets, approaches kind
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00:15:47,449 --> 00:15:51,859
of a model for actual course grades
that are submitted on a report card.
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00:15:52,119 --> 00:15:56,900
But there's still an understanding of this
desire for like 100% It's interesting,
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00:15:56,909 --> 00:15:59,749
some of the same feelings that you're
talking about her in her life too.
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00:16:00,269 --> 00:16:01,309
ASHLEY: Yeah, absolutely.
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00:16:01,369 --> 00:16:04,769
I also just want to add onto that a little
bit of the feelings of your daughter.
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I think I felt that a lot
in school too, as I said.
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And now going into a teaching career, I
think understanding that it's your job to
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meet students where they are and find the
way of learning that works best for them.
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Because I think with this
traditional grading system, it
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works great for some people.
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00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:25,149
Some students are able to exceed
expectations consistently, but
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00:16:25,150 --> 00:16:27,929
then there's other students who
it's not that they're not smart
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00:16:27,939 --> 00:16:29,230
or not capable of learning.
300
00:16:29,409 --> 00:16:33,129
It's just that they might not learn
in that way, and that evaluation
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00:16:33,129 --> 00:16:35,659
doesn't reflect all the learning
that they have done along the way.
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00:16:35,659 --> 00:16:39,810
So I think now going into a career of
teaching and understanding that it's
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00:16:39,819 --> 00:16:43,829
my job to make sure that my students
don't feel like learning isn't for
304
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:45,489
them because learning is for everybody.
305
00:16:45,659 --> 00:16:50,939
So it's the weird time to be in elementary
school and kind of figuring out this
306
00:16:50,939 --> 00:16:55,209
whole grading situation and that you're
really being evaluated so heavily.
307
00:16:55,549 --> 00:16:58,189
JESSAMYN: Sorry, not sorry for
that, Ashley… [LAUGHTER] putting
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00:16:58,190 --> 00:16:59,389
all these thoughts in your head.
309
00:17:00,169 --> 00:17:04,789
And everybody talked about this at one
point or another, the way that they
310
00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:09,919
experienced traditional grading as a
system where it was wrong and bad to
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00:17:09,919 --> 00:17:16,259
make mistakes, and that learning, which
is so contrary to what learning actually
312
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:21,979
requires, which is making mistakes, and
as very high achieving students at a
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00:17:21,979 --> 00:17:27,659
very high-achieving institution, that was
pretty mind-blowing, and they identified
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00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:34,009
very readily that making mistakes should
be part and parcel of how you're assessed.
315
00:17:34,029 --> 00:17:36,729
But with the traditional grading
system, they often felt like
316
00:17:36,729 --> 00:17:38,019
they couldn't make a mistake.
317
00:17:38,379 --> 00:17:41,470
JOHN: One of the things that seemed to
come up in the comments there was that
318
00:17:41,470 --> 00:17:45,429
the traditional grading system led to
a focus on getting the highest grades
319
00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:48,089
without as much concern for the learning.
320
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:51,600
Is that the sort of perception
that was common in the class?
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00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:53,530
JESSAMYN: Yeah, I think so.
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00:17:53,670 --> 00:18:01,379
And interfering with learning, and also
I say interfering with being able to
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00:18:01,540 --> 00:18:08,449
reflect on and even enjoy learning,
that that got lost pretty quickly.
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00:18:08,809 --> 00:18:15,860
I remember one student, we were talking
in class, all of us together when we
325
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met for our midterm grading conference.
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He was a junior, and he said he couldn't
remember ever having had an opportunity
327
00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:31,200
to reflect and articulate exactly
how successful he'd been in learning
328
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,730
and what he wanted to keep learning
and how he was doing in the class.
329
00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:39,799
And all of us agreed it was quite
bizarre that you could become a junior
330
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in college and never remember having a
chance to honestly articulate “Here's
331
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how my learning is going. Here's things
I'm interested in. Here's where I want
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to do a little better.” So, interfering
in that way with the process of learning.
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00:18:55,299 --> 00:18:58,359
ASHLEY: I think Professor Neuhaus
really summed it up pretty well.
334
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,869
I think we did a lot of talking
about how our learning processes were
335
00:19:02,869 --> 00:19:07,560
really reflective of just focusing
on the end result and a grade, and
336
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,800
just kind of making it through a lot
of the time throughout elementary
337
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,120
school, middle school, high school,
and how that was really the emphasis
338
00:19:14,129 --> 00:19:17,069
placed often by just the grading
system and what we were learning.
339
00:19:17,809 --> 00:19:20,499
REBECCA: I'm curious whether or not
the conversations that you were having
340
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around grading just even changed your
perception of what was happening in
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00:19:24,129 --> 00:19:26,059
your classes during that semester.
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00:19:26,849 --> 00:19:27,830
ASHLEY: Yeah, for sure.
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I can speak to this a little bit.
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I was in a lot of classes and my
education classes were often based
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off of projects or watching our
observations of us teaching, and more
346
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grading based off of what they were
seeing of our learning, rather than
347
00:19:42,239 --> 00:19:45,400
an exam or more traditional grades.
348
00:19:45,829 --> 00:19:50,289
But I did have a couple classes that
semester that were graded based off of
349
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here's what we're learning, here's a
lecture, here's your homework assignment,
350
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,070
here's your test, and yeah, I think as
I've gotten older, I think those types
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of classes I have more of an awareness of
what works and what doesn't for me, and if
352
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it's a subject that I find comes easily to
me, then those classes are totally fine.
353
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I can listen to the lecture, I
can do the assignments, I can
354
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take the test, and I'm fine.
355
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But if it's a subject that I'm
not as interested in and doesn't
356
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come as easily to me, then it's
detrimental to my mental state.
357
00:20:18,730 --> 00:20:22,069
Like in high school, I was taking
math classes that were really hard
358
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and that just didn't work for me.
359
00:20:23,699 --> 00:20:25,729
I was constantly struggling, and yeah.
360
00:20:25,729 --> 00:20:28,889
So I think throughout my college
classes, I definitely saw like,
361
00:20:28,889 --> 00:20:32,319
okay, am I doing this for the end
result of an A, or am I doing this
362
00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:33,799
and actually learning the material?
363
00:20:33,809 --> 00:20:37,390
So our “Problems with Grades” class
definitely helped me reflect and see how
364
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:42,030
much did I learn in this class versus
how much did I not learn and just do
365
00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:46,299
the assignments and accomplish those
tasks to get the end result grade.
366
00:20:46,790 --> 00:20:50,750
COLE: Often I would reflect on what we
discussed in class, like in my following
367
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:53,050
course, which was like 10 minutes after.
368
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:55,309
And this was a very traditional course.
369
00:20:55,309 --> 00:20:59,360
It was the slideshows and lectures, and
I would look around the lecture hall
370
00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:02,879
and twice a week, constantly, people
are just always just doing anything but
371
00:21:02,889 --> 00:21:06,519
taking notes, or maybe just jot down
like two sentences every like 10 minutes.
372
00:21:06,719 --> 00:21:09,339
But it really had me thinking,
like, is this really the most
373
00:21:09,340 --> 00:21:11,370
efficient way to teach this class?
374
00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:13,449
And I would always circle
back to that thought.
375
00:21:14,049 --> 00:21:18,109
But yeah, this class definitely did allow
me to like broaden my skill of thinking.
376
00:21:18,509 --> 00:21:20,999
JESSAMYN: Cole, you also had
an interesting experience.
377
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,419
You wrote about it on LinkedIn.
378
00:21:23,419 --> 00:21:26,510
You had an interesting experience
where, towards the end of the
379
00:21:26,510 --> 00:21:30,429
semester, in another class, a
grade had been entered incorrectly.
380
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:32,379
Do you want to tell a
little bit about that?
381
00:21:32,669 --> 00:21:34,619
COLE: Yeah, [LAUGHTER] very frustrating.
382
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:35,349
I'll say that.
383
00:21:35,829 --> 00:21:39,869
So, we had three exams over like the
whole semester, and my professor put in
384
00:21:40,139 --> 00:21:45,280
like the questions that I entered into a
calculator for the exam three, and because
385
00:21:45,389 --> 00:21:50,179
like the questions like reoccur on the
final exam, I got those questions right.
386
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:51,599
But overall, I just like bombed it.
387
00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:53,929
I was like, how did I get
this awful of a grade?
388
00:21:54,139 --> 00:21:56,349
I didn't even remotely
get close to passing this.
389
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:59,209
But yeah, I sent an email
within the week after getting
390
00:21:59,209 --> 00:22:01,059
it, and then he got back to me.
391
00:22:01,369 --> 00:22:04,839
The professor just said it was
his mistake for answering this
392
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:07,060
wrong, and explained how he did it.
393
00:22:07,419 --> 00:22:10,439
But at the end of the day, I
was happy that I actually did
394
00:22:10,449 --> 00:22:12,149
get like a desirable score.
395
00:22:12,419 --> 00:22:15,939
But it did make me wonder: how do
you just end up putting in like the
396
00:22:15,939 --> 00:22:18,580
wrong test into your grading rubric?
397
00:22:18,739 --> 00:22:20,749
Was there a lack of organization there?
398
00:22:21,009 --> 00:22:21,389
I don't know.
399
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:22,499
I just think about that sometimes.
400
00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:26,080
JESSAMYN: Well, how
incredibly high stakes it was.
401
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:31,039
So everybody makes mistakes sometimes,
including professors, including
402
00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:32,779
on the learning management system.
403
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:38,359
But it's when it's so high stakes and
it means so much, o ne little wrong
404
00:22:38,369 --> 00:22:44,519
entry has this really devastating ripple
effect, and I think that story really
405
00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:49,399
illustrates an important takeaway that
I saw a lot of the students leave the
406
00:22:49,399 --> 00:22:55,060
class with is that I felt like a lot
of them left more empowered in their
407
00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:59,979
academic setting, a little more cautious
about measuring their own and others'
408
00:22:59,989 --> 00:23:04,669
academic success and learning solely
in terms of grades, but in Cole's case,
409
00:23:05,099 --> 00:23:07,019
this is the system – it's the grades.
410
00:23:07,289 --> 00:23:12,489
But being a little more empowered and
understanding more about where grades
411
00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:16,600
came from hopefully will help the
students like Cole who are still in
412
00:23:16,619 --> 00:23:21,859
college navigate those kinds of issues
around grades with a little more agency.
413
00:23:22,269 --> 00:23:23,069
REBECCA: It's interesting, right?
414
00:23:23,069 --> 00:23:25,459
That sometimes grades can
feel like they're done to you.
415
00:23:25,599 --> 00:23:29,090
In the case of like an error, it's
like a grade done to you, and then
416
00:23:29,129 --> 00:23:33,509
you feel helpless or powerless,
and like, how did this happen?
417
00:23:33,509 --> 00:23:37,159
Or you feel maybe like you're
unworthy or something like that,
418
00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:41,190
and don't feel empowered to
ask about it or to question it.
419
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:45,300
We just kind of accept it because
we treat it as like an authority.
420
00:23:45,390 --> 00:23:48,870
So, good for you for raising the
question and not just accepting it.
421
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:52,370
Hopefully, we can get more students
to be empowered to ask a question
422
00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:54,360
if it's unclear or unaware.
423
00:23:54,360 --> 00:24:00,109
Because I think these mistakes do happen
sometimes, and it causes a lot of anxiety
424
00:24:00,109 --> 00:24:04,400
and stress, but also can cause inaction
if students internalize that grade.
425
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:09,230
JESSAMYN: Yeah, and from the faculty
side, I mean, talk about stress.
426
00:24:09,449 --> 00:24:12,489
We're so stressed out
at the end of the term.
427
00:24:12,629 --> 00:24:17,379
If you're grading a bunch of
high-stakes exams, that's stressful,
428
00:24:17,399 --> 00:24:19,929
not just for students, but for you.
429
00:24:20,219 --> 00:24:24,799
And I told them at the beginning of
the semester, this is a class I've been
430
00:24:24,849 --> 00:24:31,390
dying to teach for a long time, because
for years now I've been frustrated at
431
00:24:31,390 --> 00:24:36,580
the end of the semester entering final
grades, and for a wide range of reasons.
432
00:24:36,939 --> 00:24:41,649
Sometimes I'd enter a final grade
and be like, "Wow, this just
433
00:24:41,649 --> 00:24:45,839
doesn't really reflect what I think
happened for good and for ill.
434
00:24:45,849 --> 00:24:49,289
Like, no, I know this student
learned and flourished and
435
00:24:49,290 --> 00:24:50,639
did a lot of important things.
436
00:24:50,889 --> 00:24:52,309
The grade doesn't reflect that.
437
00:24:52,610 --> 00:24:57,169
I know this student was coasting
through or was just jumping hoops.
438
00:24:57,470 --> 00:24:58,509
Did they really learn?
439
00:24:58,519 --> 00:25:02,660
Did I change anything about
anything for them going forward?
440
00:25:03,019 --> 00:25:06,989
So there was a lot of frustration on my
part, and then that high- stakes part.
441
00:25:07,349 --> 00:25:10,879
When a student comes to your
office, when a student tells you
442
00:25:11,290 --> 00:25:17,399
that a bad grade is a huge flippin'
deal, they are not exaggerating.
443
00:25:17,769 --> 00:25:22,549
It defines who they are as students
in so many ways for themselves and
444
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,310
for others, and that is stressful
not just for students but for us.
445
00:25:26,899 --> 00:25:30,089
ASHLEY: Yeah, I also think coming,
more from the student perspective,
446
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:34,029
it is really jarring to not know
where you're at academically.
447
00:25:34,339 --> 00:25:36,409
Like I think for Cole
receiving that grade.
448
00:25:36,899 --> 00:25:38,929
He was like, "Wait,
this doesn't make sense.
449
00:25:38,959 --> 00:25:42,929
But also, maybe it's correct,” and
the possibility that “okay, wait,
450
00:25:42,939 --> 00:25:46,799
maybe this is right,” and like maybe
accepting that you didn't know nearly
451
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:49,709
as much about the subject or nearly
as much about the class as you thought
452
00:25:49,709 --> 00:25:52,189
you did is a very jarring concept.
453
00:25:52,190 --> 00:25:55,319
I think finding out at the end,
like, oh, according to whatever
454
00:25:55,479 --> 00:25:57,450
grading system my teacher is using.
455
00:25:57,849 --> 00:25:59,240
I didn't meet the standards.
456
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,709
I didn't meet the expectations.
457
00:26:01,199 --> 00:26:04,459
It does take a toll on you mentally and
makes you feel like, “man, what did I
458
00:26:04,550 --> 00:26:09,379
do wrong?” When in reality, if you use
more of a system that evaluates students
459
00:26:09,379 --> 00:26:13,429
throughout the process and helps students
understand where they're at each step
460
00:26:13,429 --> 00:26:17,800
of the way, then you won't end up at
the end feeling like, “Whoa, wait!
461
00:26:17,879 --> 00:26:21,630
I thought I knew a lot about this
topic, and I actually apparently
462
00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:22,949
don't know anything.” [LAUGHTER]
463
00:26:23,639 --> 00:26:25,779
COLE: I think Ashley
summed it up tremendously.
464
00:26:26,009 --> 00:26:30,159
For that week, I think my professor
was on vacation or something following
465
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,039
the end of term, so it took like
a few days for him to get back.
466
00:26:34,550 --> 00:26:37,299
And I remember those few
days, I just couldn't sleep.
467
00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:41,369
I was terrified because it
dropped my GPA more than I'd want.
468
00:26:41,709 --> 00:26:45,120
And I will say this wasn't
one of my easier classes.
469
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:49,450
I did have to put in a lot of extra work
for this course, but to see like a grade
470
00:26:49,460 --> 00:26:51,940
that jarring just plummeted my hopes.
471
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,679
And I remember I was visiting my
brother in Canada at the time, and
472
00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:57,150
he would want to go out and do stuff.
473
00:26:57,150 --> 00:26:59,760
And I was like, I got to get this
figured out before we do anything.
474
00:27:00,070 --> 00:27:03,809
JOHN: So, in this class, you explored a
variety of alternative grading systems.
475
00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:06,969
What were some of the other grading
systems that were discussed?
476
00:27:07,209 --> 00:27:10,300
How did students react to them,
and had they ever experienced
477
00:27:10,330 --> 00:27:11,820
those in earlier classes?
478
00:27:12,209 --> 00:27:12,529
JESSAMYN: Yeah.
479
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:18,770
So, in addition to Eyler's book, students
chose two scholarly articles to read.
480
00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:22,730
I gave them a huge long list because
there's been a lot of work published
481
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:25,229
in the field on research on grading.
482
00:27:25,529 --> 00:27:28,189
In those articles, we looked
specifically at specifications
483
00:27:28,189 --> 00:27:31,590
grading, standards-based grading, and
what the authors termed ungrading.
484
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,000
And then we also read some of Eyler's
discussions about some of those systems.
485
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:41,560
I think that students were very
interested, surprised that these existed.
486
00:27:42,099 --> 00:27:45,629
Most hadn't experienced any type of
alternative grading, although a few
487
00:27:45,629 --> 00:27:48,629
people had a few isolated instances.
488
00:27:49,049 --> 00:27:54,060
I will say though that in a way that
really filled their professors' heart
489
00:27:54,060 --> 00:27:59,299
with pride, they brought the same critical
lens to alternative grading, and some of
490
00:27:59,299 --> 00:28:03,049
them could get so complicated so quickly,
and some of the scholarly articles about
491
00:28:03,159 --> 00:28:06,669
alternative grading just get so complex.
492
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:10,759
So students raised, like Jesse
Stommel says, ungrading is raising
493
00:28:10,809 --> 00:28:15,079
a critical eyebrow at traditional
grading practices, and students
494
00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:19,559
brought that same kind of raised
eyebrow to alternative grading as well.
495
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,220
ASHLEY: Yeah, I think it was definitely
a lot to take in with all the new grading
496
00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:28,399
systems that we looked at, and it's kind
of a mind warp when you've been graded
497
00:28:28,399 --> 00:28:33,379
the same way for your entire education
to understand that there are other ways.
498
00:28:33,589 --> 00:28:37,750
But it was also interesting to see like
where in my educational past I had these
499
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:39,339
little hints of alternative grading.
500
00:28:39,369 --> 00:28:43,979
So, like, I had, in one of my college
courses, a professor who did use a more
501
00:28:43,989 --> 00:28:47,779
standards-based grading approach, and
we would do a task, and it was more
502
00:28:47,779 --> 00:28:53,279
like, "How well are you hitting these
specific standards and stuff like that?”
503
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:58,229
But ultimately, when you're going to
and attending a university that uses
504
00:28:58,429 --> 00:29:04,030
a GPA scale of 4.0, etc. you do have
to eventually have a grade put in.
505
00:29:04,069 --> 00:29:07,389
So as much as we were learning
about these grading systems, we
506
00:29:07,389 --> 00:29:08,669
were still graded traditionally.
507
00:29:08,699 --> 00:29:13,299
But I think I had little peeks of
standards-based grading, and just really
508
00:29:13,309 --> 00:29:19,600
thinking about how these alternative
grading practices focus on the process
509
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,649
of learning and not the outcome.
510
00:29:21,649 --> 00:29:25,159
I think that was the main difference
I saw was that our traditional grading
511
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,929
system focuses on an outcome and penalizes
the process of trying and failing.
512
00:29:31,259 --> 00:29:33,120
So we see failing as being a bad thing.
513
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,899
You didn't learn what you were
supposed to learn when in reality
514
00:29:36,179 --> 00:29:40,139
to reach the specific outcome you
need to try and fail sometimes.
515
00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:45,120
So I think my first reaction to the
alternative grading was that it allowed
516
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,230
for and encouraged the process of
trying, even if you might have ended up
517
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,520
failing and not accomplishing the goal.
518
00:29:53,150 --> 00:29:54,410
When you fail, you learn.
519
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:59,150
So that's a part of the learning process,
which I think alternative grading really
520
00:29:59,150 --> 00:30:02,820
focuses on, and shows that transparency
to students of, “Hey, you're trying here.
521
00:30:03,129 --> 00:30:05,159
This is what you can learn from it.
522
00:30:05,330 --> 00:30:09,040
This is where we might not have hit where
we wanted to, but I can now see as your
523
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,420
teacher that you need extra support here.
524
00:30:11,490 --> 00:30:13,729
So let's continue in that direction.”
525
00:30:14,029 --> 00:30:17,839
JOHN: A follow up for Ashley: As you
go into teaching, are any of those
526
00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:21,159
grading systems something that you
might build into your own practice?
527
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:22,649
ASHLEY: Yeah, for sure.
528
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,350
I think looking at the curriculums that
I'm going to be using, I'm just kind of
529
00:30:26,350 --> 00:30:29,720
starting to dip my toe in and see what
I'm going to be using this coming year.
530
00:30:30,009 --> 00:30:34,360
But I think an important part for me
is even if I'm using a traditional
531
00:30:34,419 --> 00:30:37,989
grading system in my classroom, or
that's what the curriculum uses, there
532
00:30:37,989 --> 00:30:41,559
are still ways that I think I can
make it a little bit more alternative.
533
00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:46,329
Like I think for me, an important
part of my education and being in this
534
00:30:46,330 --> 00:30:49,689
class, one of the things that we did in
this class was collaborative grading.
535
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,650
So we would sit down with Professor
Neuhaus and we would talk through kind of
536
00:30:53,689 --> 00:30:57,979
where we felt like what we learned, how we
met the standards, and I think that just
537
00:30:57,979 --> 00:31:02,589
conversation of "Hey, where are we at?” or
"Where do you feel like you're thriving?
538
00:31:02,589 --> 00:31:05,249
Where do you feel like you need
support?” or "How do you feel like
539
00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:07,070
you're meeting these" was important.
540
00:31:07,099 --> 00:31:11,020
And I think in my classroom, I can
definitely sit down with my students, even
541
00:31:11,020 --> 00:31:16,070
if it's two minutes once a week with each
kid, just say, "Hey, how are we feeling
542
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:20,539
about math,” or “how are we feeling about
the book you're reading,” or having that
543
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:24,389
kind of approach of “let's talk through
this,” or being transparent with them,
544
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:27,919
especially as fifth graders, of “Hey,
this is why I'm noticing, so this is
545
00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:31,259
why I'm providing you with the support.”
I think a lot of the time we feel the
546
00:31:31,259 --> 00:31:36,030
need to hide that support from students
and hide the fact that maybe they're
547
00:31:36,030 --> 00:31:39,709
not where they should be, but I think
that's such an important part of using
548
00:31:39,919 --> 00:31:44,419
alternative grading and incorporating
other elements is trying to say like,
549
00:31:44,769 --> 00:31:49,329
“Hey, this is where we can support you and
making the student a part of the process.”
550
00:31:50,190 --> 00:31:54,089
REBECCA: I think what I'm hearing you say,
Ashley, is one of the things that's often
551
00:31:54,089 --> 00:31:59,660
missing is that constant feedback and the
ability to adjust, and that's baked into
552
00:31:59,660 --> 00:32:01,519
some of these alternative grading systems.
553
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,409
But we can also have those
same features in other spaces.
554
00:32:04,550 --> 00:32:07,429
[LAUGHTER] So I find it interesting
that you're pulling out some features
555
00:32:07,429 --> 00:32:09,729
or things that really speak to you.
556
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,329
So I'm curious, especially as Jessamyn
had noted that there was some eyebrow
557
00:32:15,330 --> 00:32:17,309
raising [LAUGHTER] towards alternatives.
558
00:32:17,309 --> 00:32:19,839
So I'm wondering if there's other
features of alternative grading that
559
00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:23,759
bubbled up as features that students
really leaned into or really enjoyed,
560
00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:28,270
but also features that maybe were really
problematic or that they were challenging.
561
00:32:28,419 --> 00:32:32,209
For example, the level of complexity
of some of these alternative methods.
562
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:37,699
JESSAMYN: Yeah, I think the sometimes
convoluted mechanisms of some of
563
00:32:37,699 --> 00:32:39,930
the alternative grading systems.
564
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:46,830
Several students did point out that their
experiences in some disciplines really
565
00:32:46,830 --> 00:32:52,879
did require some straight-up traditional
exams and traditional grades… some STEM
566
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,470
classes, and some other classes that
students felt that way about… and I guess
567
00:32:58,470 --> 00:33:07,070
the other thing would be that, like Ashley
said, that in most institutions, at the
568
00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:08,699
end of the day, there is a letter grade.
569
00:33:09,109 --> 00:33:14,379
So, how to live in that reality
and provide those opportunities
570
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:18,000
for mistakes and not pitting
students against each other – that
571
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,519
was some of the big takeaways.
572
00:33:20,409 --> 00:33:22,759
COLE: As far as takeaways go, I
think the biggest takeaway that I
573
00:33:22,779 --> 00:33:24,919
have is that students comes first.
574
00:33:25,019 --> 00:33:28,189
I mean, at the end of the day, it's like
educating the youth, the next generation.
575
00:33:28,399 --> 00:33:31,920
But this course really just allowed
me to see while the student may
576
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,200
come first, how does the system
push against the priority of that?
577
00:33:36,809 --> 00:33:39,929
So I really do think, as Ashley
said, being an educator now,
578
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:43,669
teachers should able to sit down with
each student and figure out their
579
00:33:43,769 --> 00:33:45,130
individual needs and stuff like that.
580
00:33:45,669 --> 00:33:50,469
JESSAMYN: Yeah, when it came to the
actual grading of students for this
581
00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:54,590
class, it was an interesting problem
putting together the syllabus.
582
00:33:54,619 --> 00:33:56,289
Like, how are we going
to actually do that?
583
00:33:56,299 --> 00:34:00,840
And I will say I've never told
anybody this, but my first draft
584
00:34:00,849 --> 00:34:04,299
of the syllabus was so overstuffed.
585
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,319
I was going to try a whole bunch
of different alternative grading.
586
00:34:07,349 --> 00:34:09,489
Like this assignment, we're going
to use this kind of grading.
587
00:34:09,489 --> 00:34:12,839
This assignment we're going to use
that kind of grading, and I knew it
588
00:34:12,839 --> 00:34:17,229
was too much content, too much stuff
to cover, but I was still mulling it
589
00:34:17,229 --> 00:34:21,449
over when I went to the POD Network
annual conference in November, and I
590
00:34:21,449 --> 00:34:27,289
went to a session facilitated by Jessica
Tinklenberg and Jeremy Schneider about
591
00:34:27,339 --> 00:34:29,480
what they called negotiated grading.
592
00:34:29,509 --> 00:34:33,799
And Jeremy Schneider talked about
the way he had used it in his first-
593
00:34:33,799 --> 00:34:38,309
year large writing classes, and
I thought that really is the way.
594
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,549
So I threw out everything I had
already done, and I redesigned
595
00:34:41,549 --> 00:34:45,779
it to be a collaborative
grading experience for students.
596
00:34:45,790 --> 00:34:50,190
So the requirement was the students
over the first half of the semester and
597
00:34:50,190 --> 00:34:55,999
then the second half of the semester
compiled into a portfolio evidence of
598
00:34:56,119 --> 00:35:02,260
their progress towards the learning
outcomes, the documents and documentation
599
00:35:02,270 --> 00:35:07,499
that reflected their engagement or
their reflection on the course material.
600
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:12,220
They also did a field report where
they came into class and talked about
601
00:35:12,429 --> 00:35:16,739
what kinds of grading systems they were
experiencing that semester, and then
602
00:35:17,339 --> 00:35:22,900
I met with each student individually,
and we collaborated on their grade.
603
00:35:23,209 --> 00:35:27,560
And I just have to say here too that I
would never plant a flag and say this is
604
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,669
the only way that you can do good grading.
605
00:35:29,739 --> 00:35:34,919
I know our embodied positionality,
personality, teaching context
606
00:35:34,959 --> 00:35:38,230
– all those things shape what
kinds of things we can try.
607
00:35:38,830 --> 00:35:43,460
But for this class, it worked really well,
and it was very difficult, I will say.
608
00:35:43,460 --> 00:35:47,950
I have used aspects of collaborative
grading before, but not for a
609
00:35:47,950 --> 00:35:52,189
whole class, and not for a whole
class that was critiquing grading.
610
00:35:52,749 --> 00:35:55,100
[LAUGHTER] So I gave
them a list of questions.
611
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:59,299
They knew ahead of time, all semester,
what questions I was going to ask
612
00:35:59,299 --> 00:36:01,160
at the midterm and then the final.
613
00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:07,650
And the final question was: “Show me the
evidence of the learning in your portfolio
614
00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:12,910
and tell me what grade you think this has
earned.” And so it was like we had spent
615
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:17,979
all this time critiquing the limits of
grades or the problems with grades, and
616
00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:22,959
then we had to say, "Well, but what's
the grade?” [LAUGHTER] So it was very
617
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:25,619
new and different, that aspect of it.
618
00:36:25,619 --> 00:36:29,319
Like I said, I had done some
types of this before, but not when
619
00:36:29,329 --> 00:36:30,679
we'd been talking about grading.
620
00:36:30,899 --> 00:36:35,749
And I just have to share this
story about a class about the
621
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:38,080
midterm grades and it stars Cole.
622
00:36:38,369 --> 00:36:39,649
So this is what happened.
623
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:43,339
We had a class meeting right before our
midterm grade conferences, and we were
624
00:36:43,339 --> 00:36:45,180
viewing the questions I was going to ask.
625
00:36:45,610 --> 00:36:52,160
And Cole asked me to tell the class… he
was like, "But how specifically are you
626
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,550
going to determine our grade from this
meeting, like, should I be extra prepared?
627
00:36:56,669 --> 00:37:00,359
Would that earn me a better grade?” And
I said “That's such a good question.
628
00:37:00,919 --> 00:37:07,040
And no, really, you and I together are
going to discuss this, and together we
629
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,149
are going to decide what your grade should
be.” And Cole was like, "Well, that sounds
630
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:13,930
really radical.” [LAUGHTER] “I know.
631
00:37:14,540 --> 00:37:16,890
Yes, it is.” He's absolutely right.
632
00:37:17,009 --> 00:37:22,059
It fundamentally upends a
really basic power dynamic, a
633
00:37:22,059 --> 00:37:24,239
basic top-down power dynamic.
634
00:37:24,649 --> 00:37:29,000
And Cole's authentic honesty was
a constant throughout the seminar.
635
00:37:29,009 --> 00:37:33,059
He said, "Well, that sounds a little
bit scary,” and I was pretty sure he
636
00:37:33,059 --> 00:37:36,879
didn't mean I was scary, but I said, “So
what do you mean?” And he said, “Well,
637
00:37:37,409 --> 00:37:40,239
that means it's my responsibility.
638
00:37:40,669 --> 00:37:45,739
I have to take responsibility for this.”
“I know, that's right.” It was a huge
639
00:37:45,739 --> 00:37:50,859
light bulb moment for everyone, including
me, because Cole was really pointing
640
00:37:50,869 --> 00:37:57,410
out how traditional grading, even with
highly, highly capable, high-achieving
641
00:37:57,410 --> 00:38:02,329
students, it can reinforce passivity,
this lack of agency, the sense that
642
00:38:02,339 --> 00:38:06,859
students are given grades, and they
feel that way for a good reason.
643
00:38:07,169 --> 00:38:10,270
When the instructor wields that
ultimate power over the grade,
644
00:38:10,279 --> 00:38:13,879
and the grade determines so much
about students' success,that can
645
00:38:13,879 --> 00:38:18,770
really undermine students' sense of
their own agency in learning, their
646
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:20,289
own responsibility for learning.
647
00:38:20,789 --> 00:38:22,479
Cole, I hope it's okay
I shared that story.
648
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,429
COLE: It's more than okay, and I
can assure you when I said it's
649
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,269
scary, I wasn't referring to you.
650
00:38:27,489 --> 00:38:27,639
[LAUGHTER]
651
00:38:28,989 --> 00:38:32,259
JOHN: And there were no FERPA
violations involved in any of
652
00:38:32,259 --> 00:38:33,769
that, so we should be okay.
653
00:38:33,769 --> 00:38:34,540
JESSAMYN: Oh yeah, that's good.
654
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:35,370
[LAUGHTER] No, no, no.
655
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:39,190
JOHN: For the last three and a half
years or so, we haven't really had many
656
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,970
podcasts that did not at least bring
AI into some form of the discussion.
657
00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:49,140
And one of the things that when we
do workshops on campus about faculty
658
00:38:49,140 --> 00:38:54,789
addressing AI, one of the things I often
suggest is that our traditional grading
659
00:38:54,789 --> 00:38:59,340
systems tend to have students focus just
on getting the highest grade they can,
660
00:38:59,350 --> 00:39:01,570
without focusing as much on learning.
661
00:39:02,219 --> 00:39:06,379
What do you think about the possibility
that using alternative grading systems,
662
00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:10,449
where more of the focus is on learning
and reflecting on learning, might
663
00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:15,159
that affect students' willingness or
inclination to use AI as a substitute
664
00:39:15,169 --> 00:39:19,729
for learning, just to get that highest
grade, since that seems to be the focus
665
00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:21,679
of so much of the current structure?
666
00:39:22,139 --> 00:39:22,319
ASHLEY: Yeah.
667
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,980
So this question actually reminds me a
little bit of… I had one thing I wanted
668
00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:30,419
to add to a question that Rebecca had
asked, which was about if we had any like
669
00:39:30,619 --> 00:39:34,930
hesitations or what our critical thoughts
were about alternative grading, and if
670
00:39:34,930 --> 00:39:36,620
there was any downsides that we had seen.
671
00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:39,749
And one of them actually was
that if there's not that grade
672
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:42,849
that you're trying to achieve,
what's going to motivate students?
673
00:39:42,939 --> 00:39:45,769
Because a lot of the time we see
that the grades are the motivation.
674
00:39:46,089 --> 00:39:50,209
And I think in terms of looking at these
alternative grading systems and trying
675
00:39:50,209 --> 00:39:54,540
to figure out what's going to motivate
students to do their best and to actually
676
00:39:54,540 --> 00:39:59,269
learn, as opposed to either learning to
get that highest grade, or if we're using
677
00:39:59,269 --> 00:40:05,219
alternative grading, using AI or some
sort of help to just get the process done.
678
00:40:05,419 --> 00:40:09,089
I think it really comes back to that
intrinsic motivation and fostering a
679
00:40:09,089 --> 00:40:11,729
love for learning and the importance
of learning in your classroom.
680
00:40:11,729 --> 00:40:15,679
I think that's one of the things that I'm
really aiming towards for my classroom
681
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,239
is making sure that I'm instilling that
love for learning in my students and
682
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,479
showing them how learning and knowing
all this information and understanding
683
00:40:24,479 --> 00:40:29,329
the world from a more critical lens can
help them be a better person, help them
684
00:40:29,329 --> 00:40:35,019
be more knowledgeable and be able to
really know things and go into situations
685
00:40:35,049 --> 00:40:36,669
feeling equipped to handle them.
686
00:40:37,009 --> 00:40:40,669
So I think it's definitely a battle,
especially in colleges and high
687
00:40:40,669 --> 00:40:46,629
schools, to not have students be
using AI to get the assignments done.
688
00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:50,719
But I think for me, I found that when
I was really interested in what I was
689
00:40:50,759 --> 00:40:55,070
learning, and I had a relationship
with my teacher, and I wanted to show
690
00:40:55,070 --> 00:40:58,969
them too that I was interested in what
they were teaching, and that I wanted
691
00:40:58,970 --> 00:41:03,719
to hold up my end of the bargain and
learn and actually understand things.
692
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:08,779
That that is really helpful in terms of
kind of fighting back against this use of
693
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:11,429
AI to help accomplish tasks in schools.
694
00:41:12,089 --> 00:41:14,009
REBECCA: Sounds like we have
a bright future in education.
695
00:41:14,979 --> 00:41:15,029
[LAUGHTER]
696
00:41:15,309 --> 00:41:15,649
JESSAMYN: I know.
697
00:41:15,709 --> 00:41:18,369
That school is super lucky that hired you.
698
00:41:18,739 --> 00:41:19,700
ASHLEY: Oh, thank you.
699
00:41:19,879 --> 00:41:24,429
JESSAMYN: I would say also
there's a bigger picture issue,
700
00:41:24,429 --> 00:41:27,809
and it goes to what I was saying
earlier about the power dynamic.
701
00:41:28,190 --> 00:41:33,700
And I have found over the course of
my many many years of teaching that
702
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:40,740
if I can collaborate and work with
students to address things going wrong
703
00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:45,520
and problems that arise, it is always
more effective than if I just try to
704
00:41:45,530 --> 00:41:47,719
implement what I think should happen.
705
00:41:48,070 --> 00:41:53,770
And again, a lot of that I was able
to develop over a long career with
706
00:41:53,890 --> 00:41:59,390
employment security and certain
positionality privileges, but this
707
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,899
is probably going to be out of date
by the time this podcast airs in a
708
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:10,199
month, [LAUGHTER] but the problem of
offloading certain tasks to AI is one
709
00:42:10,469 --> 00:42:16,059
that I would say if I was encountering
in my class, I would say, students,
710
00:42:16,169 --> 00:42:20,350
what can we do about this problem,
and then see what we can come up with.
711
00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:24,099
Everything is changing
so quickly in that area.
712
00:42:24,570 --> 00:42:29,429
There's so much fear and uncertainty
that it seems to me that really working
713
00:42:29,439 --> 00:42:33,299
with students is not just the best
option, it's really the only option.
714
00:42:33,759 --> 00:42:38,560
And in my experience, and I have
taught at a variety of institutions,
715
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,069
the students rise to the occasion.
716
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:46,779
So when I've encountered problems
like everybody's looking at their
717
00:42:46,779 --> 00:42:50,629
cell phone instead of engaging in
class, what can we do about this?
718
00:42:50,629 --> 00:42:53,489
Let's do an anonymous survey.
719
00:42:53,549 --> 00:42:55,259
Let me throw out some suggestions.
720
00:42:55,290 --> 00:43:00,099
Let's brainstorm together and come
up with some strategies, and then
721
00:43:00,110 --> 00:43:02,339
revisit that halfway through the class.
722
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:06,709
And I think the same thing applies
to this use of AI in the assignments.
723
00:43:07,099 --> 00:43:11,069
Is there an assignment that I think
is particularly important, and I'd
724
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:15,139
be really nervous, will students
use their own brains to do this?
725
00:43:15,649 --> 00:43:18,519
Then I'm going to have to bring
them, actually, like you were saying,
726
00:43:18,529 --> 00:43:23,560
into the conversation and to see
well, what do they think about this?
727
00:43:23,619 --> 00:43:25,959
How can I make it seem more relevant?
728
00:43:26,299 --> 00:43:31,099
What can I do in terms of maybe
offering a way to practice or make
729
00:43:31,099 --> 00:43:36,379
mistakes, but I need their ideas and
their voices in that conversation,
730
00:43:36,649 --> 00:43:37,959
like this one we're having right now.
731
00:43:38,419 --> 00:43:39,709
COLE: Just a comment on it.
732
00:43:39,709 --> 00:43:44,069
I do think AI does reflect a sort
of I don't know if failure is right
733
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:48,220
word, but ideally, if you could get by
without using it, that'd be more ideal.
734
00:43:48,379 --> 00:43:51,829
Because at the end of the day, I do think
AI is like a tool, and it should like stay
735
00:43:51,830 --> 00:43:54,159
a tool, not like an asset for you to pass.
736
00:43:54,369 --> 00:43:57,839
Because as soon as you're relying on it
for every assignment, for example, I think
737
00:43:57,839 --> 00:44:00,869
at that point you need to reevaluate if
this is the course that you should be in.
738
00:44:01,149 --> 00:44:04,089
I remember I would use
AI to make test reviews.
739
00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:08,020
I would copy paste my online notes
into an AI engine, and I would be
740
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:11,409
like make a 20-question test where
you're using the following format,
741
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,629
save the answers for the end.
742
00:44:12,629 --> 00:44:15,950
But that's how I would exclusively use AI.
743
00:44:15,950 --> 00:44:18,260
Other than that, I would go
out and do my own research.
744
00:44:18,449 --> 00:44:20,960
I would use my own intellect
for my assignments.
745
00:44:21,289 --> 00:44:25,300
But of course, I have seen my peers use
AI in different ways that they use AI.
746
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,639
And at the end of the day, it really
I think does come down to the educator
747
00:44:29,769 --> 00:44:33,640
to make sure that their content and
their teaching style is like engaging
748
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,730
enough that your students really do
leave the classroom or leave the lecture
749
00:44:37,730 --> 00:44:39,399
hall with a sense of understanding.
750
00:44:39,860 --> 00:44:44,720
I took some higher level courses this
past semester where I did leave confused
751
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,700
and I'd have to look at the textbook for
an hour or two each night, just to try
752
00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:53,089
to catch myself up, and it's situations
like that where I do understand why
753
00:44:53,090 --> 00:44:54,959
a student would resort to using AI.
754
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:58,149
ASHLEY: Yeah, I think it's definitely
where we live in a day and age where
755
00:44:58,149 --> 00:45:01,800
there's so many people who are turning
to it for even small things, and I
756
00:45:01,809 --> 00:45:06,159
think definitely in school settings,
I see a lot of my peers turning to it
757
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,799
and using it for whether you know it
can be argued either way of if it's an
758
00:45:10,799 --> 00:45:12,519
appropriate use or an inappropriate use.
759
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:17,790
And AI is so new in the grand scheme
of our history that we're still in the
760
00:45:17,790 --> 00:45:20,100
thick of figuring out what's appropriate.
761
00:45:20,369 --> 00:45:22,569
And obviously, each person
has their own opinions.
762
00:45:22,809 --> 00:45:26,530
But kind of going off of what Professor
Neuhaus was saying, I think involving
763
00:45:26,530 --> 00:45:30,449
students in those conversations, is
also, I agree so critically important.
764
00:45:31,169 --> 00:45:34,569
As a student, I always really
appreciated when I felt like I was
765
00:45:34,570 --> 00:45:36,110
being involved in the conversation.
766
00:45:36,339 --> 00:45:40,309
There was one time during our class
where Professor Neuhaus said, "I'm
767
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:41,769
actually gonna leave the room.
768
00:45:42,169 --> 00:45:45,939
I want you guys to talk about this
without me here, and then I'm gonna
769
00:45:45,939 --> 00:45:51,819
come back and you tell me what you came
up with, or what you like.” We really
770
00:45:51,820 --> 00:45:55,599
felt like we had a lot of autonomy over
what was happening in the class and the
771
00:45:55,599 --> 00:45:58,499
questions that were asked, the things
that were talked about, and I think
772
00:45:58,559 --> 00:46:01,489
involving students in the conversation
and showing them that you really do value
773
00:46:01,489 --> 00:46:06,569
their input can increase that motivation
that I was talking about earlier.
774
00:46:06,579 --> 00:46:10,389
And I think with AI having
conversation of, “Hey, this is
775
00:46:10,389 --> 00:46:11,359
something that I've noticed.
776
00:46:11,529 --> 00:46:12,829
What do you guys think about it?
777
00:46:13,189 --> 00:46:16,109
How do you feel?” And rather than it
being like a “gotcha, you're not allowed
778
00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:19,059
to use it.” Kind of involving in the
conversation of this is something
779
00:46:19,059 --> 00:46:22,459
that we're all working through
together, all of us as a team against
780
00:46:22,459 --> 00:46:25,839
the problem, rather than a teacher
versus their students type of thing.
781
00:46:26,139 --> 00:46:30,629
REBECCA: What I'm hearing thematically
is a lot about the role emotions play
782
00:46:30,939 --> 00:46:35,319
in grading, but also in whether or
not you might feel like you need to
783
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,639
resort to using AI in certain contexts.
784
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:44,230
And so, as I was listening to Cole and
Ashley today, I'm thinking about the times
785
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:48,550
when you've highlighted the importance
of feeling a sense of belonging, or a
786
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:52,000
collaborative environment, or a good
relationship with a faculty member,
787
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,250
[LAUGHTER] and that you feel like you can
achieve something, or that it's possible.
788
00:46:56,639 --> 00:47:00,779
Those are all things that seem like a lot
of different kinds of classroom settings
789
00:47:00,779 --> 00:47:06,069
can cultivate those positive emotions that
might lead to a more positive experience.
790
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:07,209
ASHLEY: Absolutely.
791
00:47:07,209 --> 00:47:08,140
REBECCA: All right.
792
00:47:08,149 --> 00:47:11,230
So we always wrap up by
asking, "What's next?”
793
00:47:11,759 --> 00:47:18,580
JESSAMYN: So I am currently completing
a manuscript, a book-length project on
794
00:47:18,729 --> 00:47:24,490
teaching and learning with the Unessay
that will be published in the Oklahoma
795
00:47:24,490 --> 00:47:28,780
University Press series "Teaching,
Engaging, and Thriving in Higher Ed,
796
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:34,020
and of course, I will continue here as
the Director at the Syracuse Center for
797
00:47:34,020 --> 00:47:37,570
Teaching and Learning Excellence, and I
hope to be able to teach this class again.
798
00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:38,960
I won't be able to teach it this year.
799
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:39,939
I'm hoping next year.
800
00:47:40,219 --> 00:47:40,689
REBECCA: Awesome.
801
00:47:40,969 --> 00:47:42,569
JOHN: And when will
that book be coming out?
802
00:47:42,839 --> 00:47:46,560
JESSAMYN: As soon as I finish the
revisions that I just got from the
803
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,520
readers, and I kill off all my darlings.
804
00:47:49,090 --> 00:47:49,650
REBECCA: oh, oh….
805
00:47:49,660 --> 00:47:52,149
[LAUGHTER] How about you, Ashley?
806
00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:57,669
ASHLEY: I'm starting my new job as a
fifth- grade teacher in this coming fall.
807
00:47:57,679 --> 00:48:02,039
So just a few more weeks when this podcast
comes out, it'll be right around my time
808
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,629
where I'm doing my new teacher training.
809
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,660
So I'm very excited for the year ahead.
810
00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:09,330
I think it's going to come
with lots and lots of learning.
811
00:48:09,750 --> 00:48:14,150
I think it'll definitely be a rigorous
year, but I think it will be a lot
812
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:18,450
of fun, and I'm really excited to
be able to accomplish what I've been
813
00:48:18,459 --> 00:48:20,660
dreaming about for the past many years.
814
00:48:20,660 --> 00:48:24,310
I've wanted to be a teacher since I
was a wee young child, so even though
815
00:48:24,379 --> 00:48:27,839
I'm dealing with some stress about the
school year and planning and all that
816
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,459
stuff, I'm constantly reminding myself
that this is what I've always wanted,
817
00:48:31,469 --> 00:48:33,439
so I'm very excited and very grateful.
818
00:48:33,799 --> 00:48:35,690
REBECCA: We wish you the
best in your new adventure.
819
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:36,980
ASHLEY: Thank you so much.
820
00:48:37,439 --> 00:48:38,159
REBECCA: How about you, Cole?
821
00:48:38,419 --> 00:48:41,939
COLE: I guess begin sophomore year,
[LAUGHTER] and see where that takes me.
822
00:48:41,939 --> 00:48:43,200
REBECCA: It's a good attitude.
823
00:48:44,699 --> 00:48:47,809
JESSAMYN: Cole, You're doing the
library advisory board next year, right?
824
00:48:47,809 --> 00:48:52,219
And you can follow Cole's Adventures on
LinkedIn, his professional adventures.
825
00:48:52,570 --> 00:48:53,180
REBECCA: That's great.
826
00:48:54,049 --> 00:48:57,029
ASHLEY: I really appreciate you guys
giving us the space to talk about it
827
00:48:57,029 --> 00:49:01,409
and asking such thoughtful questions
and hearing about what we have to say
828
00:49:01,409 --> 00:49:05,419
about the class, especially for Cole
and I. I think being a student and
829
00:49:05,509 --> 00:49:06,959
being involved in the conversations.
830
00:49:07,199 --> 00:49:09,189
Obviously, now that I've
graduated, I guess I'm
831
00:49:09,189 --> 00:49:10,509
technically not a student anymore.
832
00:49:10,750 --> 00:49:15,179
But at heart, I still am, [LAUGHTER] and I
think it was a great experience to get to
833
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:17,349
talk so thoroughly about our experiences.
834
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,009
So, thank you.
835
00:49:18,509 --> 00:49:19,809
JOHN: Thank you all for joining us.
836
00:49:19,879 --> 00:49:23,039
This is a really interesting
topic, which I think more and
837
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,939
more faculty are considering.
838
00:49:25,290 --> 00:49:26,359
REBECCA: Yeah, and we appreciate you all.
839
00:49:26,570 --> 00:49:27,019
JESSAMYN: Thank you
840
00:49:27,619 --> 00:49:28,590
ASHLEY: Thank you so much.
841
00:49:28,729 --> 00:49:29,619
JESSAMYN: Thanks for having us.
842
00:49:30,019 --> 00:49:30,839
COLE: Thank you very much.
843
00:49:42,399 --> 00:49:42,459
[MUSIC]
844
00:49:42,459 --> 00:49:45,099
JOHN: If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe and
845
00:49:45,110 --> 00:49:49,229
leave a review on Apple Podcasts
or your favorite podcast service.
846
00:49:49,809 --> 00:49:54,329
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
847
00:49:55,259 --> 00:49:57,890
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
848
00:49:57,890 --> 00:50:00,219
materials on teaforteaching.com.
849
00:50:01,250 --> 00:50:03,229
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
850
00:50:03,229 --> 00:50:07,229
[MUSIC]