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Speaker 1: Welcome to talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
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Speaker 2: We've got our World Cup final matchup and two fascinating semifinals that got us here.
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Speaker 1: Tayo Pella's aera your host.
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Speaker 2: No cat Sasso today, but we have headed over to the United States to find Andy Harper.
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Speaker 1: It looks like you've disappeared into the woods.
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Speaker 3: Harps.
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Speaker 1: Where do we find you today?
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Speaker 3: It's taken me seven weeks to find a vantage point that's not a hotel room, Tao, and finally I'm here, but it is because it's an earlier record as well. So we're just hitting twilight in Connecticut in the Northeast. Fantastic part of the world.
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Speaker 1: You've gone back to nature and I love how it looks.
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Speaker 2: For those listening to the podcast, you can see where Harps is on the YouTube channel. Don't forget to jump onto the talkSPORT YouTube channel and subscribe.
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Speaker 1: And we're welcoming back.
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Speaker 2: One of our special guests, Denmark World Cup player Thomas Sorens and Tommy. Great to see you again.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, great to be on and obviously not as you know, out in the wild as as halves.
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Speaker 5: I'm in the good old Melbourne.
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Speaker 4: A bit of rain outside, so you know, I'm sure the weather's better in Connecticut.
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like an idiot, I thought, gee, it's a bit cold for halves to be outside, and then that I remember he's in the Northern Hemisphere.
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Speaker 1: It's summer on must be beautiful, Taya.
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Speaker 3: We've been having this long distance romance for about seven weeks now and you still haven't worked out that I'm in the summer time over here.
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Speaker 1: Fantastic.
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Speaker 2: Also, you can jump on to the listener notes the show notes for the World Cup Shootout podcast and find the talksports social media networks, get in touch with us, leave us a WhatsApp as well. Four three seven oh five double zero five. We love all your comments that are coming in on the YouTube channel as well. Let's jump into the semifinals and trace the steps for how we got to the World Cup Final, and we start with Argentina coming from behind to beat England. Gentlemen, I won't preface it with then anything other than your thoughts. Please take it away, Harps, what did you make of the semifinal?
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Speaker 3: It was a gripping encounter, another very dramatic game, and again England collapsed and they had the opportunity to break this sixty year cycle in the palm of their hands, a position they'd earned through a very effective start to the match. But as soon as they scored, they retreated and the pylons already started. About Twurkle's instruction to do that, I'm not sure if it was a direct instruction. Thomas would have some interesting thoughts on that, or it just the players fed off and just did that themselves. Of course, twokeles substitutions will talk about those fed into the whole process of funneling back in and it's defending deep. But they totally conceded, utterly, unintentionally. I'm sure thought they were doing the right thing, and it's just an epic fail in the end because they'd done so well, Thomas, and they were nearly there. And what is it about football coaches or players? I've quoted Ange a few times. I wanted him to coach the Japan team because with Ange coaching Japan, they beat Brazil instead of going into their shell. England fans aren't gonna like hearing this because Ange had his history in England. But if he was coaching that team won nill up even against a Missy inspired they wouldn't have they wouldn't have retreated seventy five minutes in as soon as I got the goal No. Way nine nine.
00:03:23
Speaker 4: I think, you know, it's it's sometimes you know, coaches, you know, they get stuck in their ways and and for me, it felt like Twoko was sort of copy copy and pasting because you know they I know, they were down to ten minute against Mexico was similar, you know, getting Conco on, getting Dan burn on. They did the same against Norway. You know, obviously it had worked, but I think it's also him underestimating who he was up against. You know, he's up against arguably the best player. In those situations, you don't want messy around your box, you know.
00:03:54
Speaker 3: And I think if the World.
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Speaker 4: Cup has shown us anything is that the teams that are actually brave, that are on the front foot, has been the most successful. And you know, Argentina just found you know, a second gear, third gear and the tactical you know, they you know, you know, getting Lato Martinez on, you know, you know, just piling on attacking players.
00:04:17
Speaker 5: Where England, I.
00:04:18
Speaker 4: Think the Srikanca substitution, taking Anthony Gordon off, I think that that was the turning point, you know, suddenly you, like you said, Habs, you're going back into your shell and you're sort of given the initiative. And then you know, the last thirty five minutes. You know, Argentina had I think thirteen crosses and more or less all of them from that right hand side, and Jed Spencer I thought was brilliant. He was taken off as well. So so many things, bad decisions I feel for England were made in those last thirty minutes.
00:04:50
Speaker 3: It was an amazing sequence because having set the platform and doing well it was It's just incredible to me, I'm watching the first sixty minut something. Geez, Thomas Tuckle's done a good job, not necessarily in this game, but you know, Jed Spence was a great off the bench. He gets a start and that was a ripping decision, a ripping decision. He was fantastic until I'll get to the until his decisions with other players in and out, and Gordon who was a squad player until he comes on and changes the game, then wins the penalty against Mexico and scores the goal. Today, a lot of these things have been vindicated for Twukele, and he's a really likable character. I've spoken a lot with English journos on the raid. Here is within within the bubble that's English football officially, players and media. He's very, very popular. And I'm sorry I other bloke, but I'm watching and thinking, you know what, they haven't been They haven't set the world on fire, but they're almost in the World Cup final and almost the chance to get that gorilla off their shoulders. And this was all building into that story until the secret, and still it started to unravel. Now, for the life of Mick Thomas, why when you've got your foot on Argentina's throat do you roll up your swag and go back to your penalty area and just give Messi everything he wants, everything on the planet that he wants. And Scoloney moved him nicely out to the wing to the Jed Spence thing quickly. I thought he was fantastic. But the winning goal comes from two things. Apart from the general growth in momentum. John Stones goes down with a head injury. The game has to stop because john Stones misheaded the ball in that cross There was no contact with the goalkeeper Pickford, but he went down and need attention. It was a long stoppage. Clearly there was something wrong. John Stones goes off for the mandatory moment. Whatever head injury assessment they did, it was either a theater show to try and take some steam out of the game, or he was crook. He runs straight back on the field. Then you get to the goal scoring sequence. McAllister hits the boast, the ball bounces out to guess who line on Messi. Just before that happens, Jed Spence goes down to stitch cramp. He's injured at that moment. With cramp, the ballfars to Messy. Messy senses all this he might have even seen with that seven hundred and twenty degree perioferal vision that Jed Spence, who's been so good today, actually he's just blown a gasket. Messi sees it, ball falls to him. It's the only time in the game he would have decided to take on Jed Spence on to his right foot. This is the genius of Messi beat Spence. No one's done at all. Night gets a right footed cross in. Who's not there John Stones? Should he have even been on the field medically, let alone tactically. It was a huge thing. And before I completely take over. We'll probably too late for that. We all admire Linel Messi, my or hit another level watching him drive this ship today, and particularly because we're very aware of his goal scoring, his quick feet, some of the hits he took physically. Elliott gave it to him, Harry Kane gave it to him. The guy was immovable. This little fella completely immovable, could not be knocked off the ball, and we've seen it. But it just came through in technicolor today beautifully. And he went up in If it's possible, he went up in my estimation even more today.
00:08:20
Speaker 5: Is that possible?
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Speaker 4: You know, he has to, at least in the modern era, by far and above everyone else. I think, you know, if anyone was in doubt before this World Cup, I think he's he's curmended it. But what I like about this Argentinian side is they've just got a terrier in them. You know, they've got that South American grit and I think you said there with Messi, but every single player, you know, they you know, they'll.
00:08:47
Speaker 5: Take you to the brink.
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Speaker 3: You know.
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Speaker 4: It's like a you know, a fighter. You know he's in the corner, but he's fighting for his life and and that's allver every single ball, especially that midfield with Perettas, McAllister and Fernandes. I think they they totally took over against Declan, Riace and Anderson and you know whoever was in there, Bellingham and you know, I think that was also deciding fact that they bullied England the last forty five minutes.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So you've prompted a couple more thoughts, and I hope you don't promp me too much because we haven't got enough time for all the thoughts to come out. Firstly, England just not good enough. When Argentina were given the opportunity to attack, the quality of their crossing was fantastic. When England go one to one and then back to one two, the quality of the England crossing was shit. These are English Premier League players who couldn't cross the road when the time asked for them to do it. Incredible. The scene was said at the national anthems, if you can wind it back and watch the camera pan past every Argentinian player singing that national anthem, it makes you blood curdle. I mean, these guys mean it, they really mean it. Fantastic And thirdly, I'm not railing on dud bellinga m I love him. He's had a great tournament. People are saying he's been the player of the tournament. But when the whips were cracking today, either his team couldn't find him or he couldn't get in the game. Again, I go to the time when England retreated, gave Argentina everything they wanted. Messy steps up. They find him in England's time of need or bit in a truncated time space. Belling and barely touched the book.
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Speaker 2: So I want to pick up on it before we get into more of why Argentina won. I want to just unpick some of the threads you've raised about why England came up short. Firstly on the mentality, whether or not it was instruction from Tukel, whether it was simply dictated by his substitutions. Let's see what Harry Kane had to say postmatch, and I'll get your thoughts on maybe what the mindset that was permeating throughout the England squad.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a similar story to what's happened in previous tournaments. I feel like we struggle to keep the momentum of the game we've done so well for that kind of sixty minutes we scored, we deserve to be ahead. And then for one reason or another, we struggled to keep the ball, we struggled to put pressure on the ball, and it just allowed them to create more momentum, It created more attached for them in our final third, and then, yeah, it's a normal mindset to try and hang on and try and hang on to the one goal lead. But you know, we're still twenty minutes plus Stop is signed to go. It was always going to be a long time, So yeah, we're gonna have to watch the game back and find out exactly how we can improve in those situations. But it's been probably the missing piece now for you know, the last four or five toordaments.
00:11:34
Speaker 1: It's a normal mindset to hold on to a one nill lead.
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Speaker 2: And this is why we love the immediate post match interviews, because there's no chance for coaches and captains to put their heads together on a message. There's no chance for pr people to curate a message to the fans, to the outside world. That's raw, that's real. And his default response was it is natural to hold on. Perhaps having heard that now from Harry Kane, does that condemn England even more for the way they gave up their lead.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: I think so. Not condemning Harry is obviously he's peerless as a current England player, fantastic, But that's not normal. That's learned behavior. That mentality can be reprogrammed, and indeed that's Twukle's job with his leaders like Harry Kane. And you know, if it's the last couple of minutes, all right, you get in the trenches and you dare them to jag one twenty five minutes to go. You don't give them the game. And this is the this is the top league in the world. All these England players are in the top clubs in the top league in the world. They don't need to be told that. Surely, surely not. I think what Harry's Harry Kane's comments Thomas actually belie is the fact that England are overrated, and they've been overrated for years because of the English Premier League. Mexico played them off the park in that first half until Mexico ran into each other. Mexican players ran into each other, and England scored those two very good goals in the second half TOTD of tone stories pretty much every game in this tournament. England fans have been waiting for their team to play well. Maybe they just can't. Maybe it goes down to the squad select squad selections. Where's cart and Cole, Where's Phil Foden, Where's Jared Bowen? Those types of players when you need them as it come up.
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Speaker 2: Sorry to put you up in full flow, Andy, but Carlton Cole is long retired.
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're thinking before.
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Speaker 2: I wanted to get in before the YouTube comingsviscert you for that one.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 5: I played with Carlton Cole when I was at Aston Villa, so it would have gone well, maybe they should have been he was it was a bit lazy. I think that's why he moved away from Chelsea.
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Speaker 3: I think they couldn't get get one point I was. I was fulminating. Anyway, I've got it out of my system now and the correction is noted and thankfully applied. Thomas, What do you reckon?
00:13:47
Speaker 6: You know?
00:13:48
Speaker 4: I I I reckon it's a mentality thing, you know. I don't know if I agree with you that the players are not good enough. I think they've they've got en off quality and you know on the bench as well. But you know, I've played in teams where you know, the mindset is directed from the sideline and and it is a default because it's something they've done, you know, in the three previous games. And you start to see the substitutions come on, the players that are coming on, it's it's defensively minded. You know, you know, you can't you know, you can't blame concept or not wanting to defend. You know, he's not going to run up the pitch.
00:14:21
Speaker 5: And and I.
00:14:23
Speaker 4: Think, you know, it's it's something that deliberate or not deliberate changes your mindset. And I don't know when you're sitting at the edge of your box if Harry Kane is the right player to have because you need an outlet, you need pace, and and he you know, he tends to drop very deep. And and you've got Sakka, You've got Rashford on the bench, Like why don't you put them on if that's the way you want to go, because you need that outlet you need you need to keep hold of the ball, you need someone that can get up the pitch. And England didn't have those players on.
00:14:56
Speaker 3: The pitch at all.
00:14:57
Speaker 4: And I think so that there's so many layers to it, and yeah, like Hurrycane said, they can spend the next two years or looking over the video and you know it's it's going to be a horrendous time for for for the you know, for an English side with those expectations that they'll always have.
00:15:13
Speaker 3: They keep getting the coach wrong. Sorry, they keep getting the coach wrong. If it's a mentality thing, why don't they keep doubling down on similar, similar style coaches, Why don't they get some sort of cowboy in them to let the football lootse.
00:15:26
Speaker 4: Was Tom still was supposed to be that you know what the biggest difference I saw in I think it was the very last seconds of the game where you know, the balls back at Pickford. He was looking to to play out, they were looking to get forward and there was five Argentinian players hustling right at England's box. You know, they weren't back in their own you know, half or just waiting for Pickford to ping it into the box. There were there were causing problems and I think it's it is a it is something that comes from the bench and you know we've seen it, you know twice with you know, against Egypt, where Argentina managed to turn it around again and they've got those you know, extra gears that they can go into. And I think that's also scalone is you know, he should have some praise for it.
00:16:13
Speaker 3: Okay, Thomas, just quickly on this one. Sorry, Tom, there's so much to go through here, but I am suitably chastened by your takedown of me saying the England teams just not good enough. Right, But when you're watching those, when you're of because clearly they're great players, but it's quite the point, so you're you're right, I'm wrong in that general sense. But when you're watching those last moments, Thomas and argent and in England are just forced to go forward. And my point before about the quality of the delivery penalty, So how can good players forget the defensive mentality which has almost suffocated them? Now it's just shit or bust. You get the ball into a situation to deliver the ball. Argentina pretty much nailed every delivery and caused heart palpitations every time England not once, not once. How does that happen? Yeah?
00:16:59
Speaker 4: But you even saw like Pickford over hitting you know, not even hitting Dan Byrne, and you know it's it's you know, I think Martinez a few times was quite relieved that, you know, it was an easy cross for him to take.
00:17:12
Speaker 5: And I totally agree with you.
00:17:14
Speaker 4: You know it, Ultimately, modern football comes down to quality at the right time, you know. And I think we saw two teams that, you know, one delivered to the utmost most extent and the other one failed when it mattered. And I think that's probably where you can, you know, you can say that there's something missing in this England side. Despite the individual quality, they just didn't produce when it was on the line.
00:17:41
Speaker 2: Well, this is some stats to further your point about Bellingham Haups. He completed nineteen passes for the game, only forty two touches in the game, and only one completed pass into the final third. And then arguably Harry Kane had an even worse match. So when you talk about the players that were left out for England, Thomas Tukle seemingly backed by the public when he named his squad that this was going to be about getting the best out of the superstars and also about team harmony and team balance. This seems like such a major backfire when you talk about a change of philosophy, do England also need to go back to one where they need to bring in a coach who is rather than building a squad surrounded on vibes, one that can actually find a shape to work their best players. The thing that dogged them throughout the twenty's and the twenty tens where they tried to put square pegs in round holes. But have they simply got a situation where they need a manager to find a solution to embrace the talents and get the best out of the talents.
00:18:41
Speaker 3: That's such a broad question. I think there's culturally an issue with the way England celebrates its players and the types of players that are accepted. I mean, anytime a squad's announced, there's always conjecture on who who and why why. My first reaction from a distance when Turkle announced this squad is where's Palmer wears? Phil Foden wears Jared Bowen. Okay, you know it's a split hair between selections, but there are certain styles of players in England Thomas who are easier to drop than others. Not personalities, not characters, certain styles of players. I mean Paul Eifel, our friend from Wellington Phoenix, fantastic post career commentator, is becoming used to refer to himself as a Premier League player, then championship players a luxury in England, my style of players a luxury player. I don't think many countries have a similar view, which leads me into a broader discussion. Ze to me, I think he's feud as one of these luxury type players. He had what maybe seventy minutes eighty minutes of football in this World Cup in most other countries European, including players like starting and it dovetails into this other discussion which is not for now, and unfortunately had a crap game in the other semi final. How does the English system Liz markolsa, How does a kid who grows up in England developed by the English system say, I want to applay for France.
00:20:10
Speaker 4: Oh you can go like Mozilla. I think I was there and left, you know, chose Germany. So that those you know, those stories are you know they're not thinking no, no, for sure not and and yeah there's probably a deeper dive into you know, mentality, you know, as you said, are they celebrated to you know, to too highly. Do they have that edge when it matters. I think that's probably what it comes down to a little bit. I think that was very evident in this game Argentina. Argentina had the edge. I don't know if that's their upbringing, you know, they you know, there's it's just like you said with with the national anthem, there's just this like they would go to the edge of the world and die.
00:20:55
Speaker 5: There for their country.
00:20:56
Speaker 4: You know, it means something that it doesn't mean to every player around the world. And you can just see in these moments that they can just put the whole package together of passion, quality, togetherness, a fighting spirit, and yeah, they you know, they seem unbeatable when when they sort of when they get to that point.
00:21:21
Speaker 2: One more in England before we get to Argentina, let's hear from one of our talkSPORT colleagues in the United Kingdom, Jamie O'Hara and his live reaction to Argentina winning the game.
00:21:31
Speaker 7: We could have had Russia, we could have had soccer. We had so much more to give in this game, and we just retreated. It's a terrible decision. This is what he's brought it for to get this decision right.
00:21:43
Speaker 3: We're out.
00:21:45
Speaker 7: It's the worst decision ever. It's a soccer ball fans Argentina won it in a ninety second minute. It's a shocking, shocking decision. Thomas Tukle, you should be embarrassed. Suck him, Suck him, suck him.
00:21:57
Speaker 1: There's the reaction of Jamie O'Hara.
00:21:59
Speaker 2: Now, the journalists covering England at the World Cup have said that Fachief executive Mark Bullingham has backed Thomas Tukele to remain in charge of England through to Euro twenty twenty eight, So an instant response to elimination. But I put it to you two, my personal opinion is that this situation is only going to be more toxic. And regardless of how England qualify for Euro twenty twenty eight, there's no trust.
00:22:23
Speaker 1: The trust is irreparably broken.
00:22:25
Speaker 2: Thomas Tuckle should go harps am I shooting first and asking questions later, or like j M O'Hara, is it Sakim Sakim sack well, I might.
00:22:33
Speaker 3: You can understand the visceral reaction of England fans and a fair bit of hyperbole in the emotion coming through from our colleague, completely understandable. You can't see how it's going to last. I mean, I'm going to put us in the Australia in this category as well, Australia US France just to pick three in their own way. Great tournaments, but the way it finished is so disappointing. At clouds all the good stuff that happened and all the heroics and maybe that England have reinforced through their run through have covered over the fact that in no game did they particularly dominate anyone this collection of fine players, So that issue remains. Had Argentina won two one today in England died on their feet pushing hard, just couldn't quite get a goalkeeper heroics, I think Turkle might be on firmer ground. But unfortunately all the great stories and the emergence of Jude Billingham, which is a great story until today, it all gets lost in the depressing nature of the capitulation. It just clouds everything. Thomas. I think it's going to be a really tough time for him.
00:23:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's two long years and I'm sure you know. And it's also so hard to come in and say, okay, we'll review everything and we're going to change the approach and you know, we're going to be more offensive minded and all these things. And I think the history of England also plays a part. You know, there's there's this immense amount of pressure that that's been holding them down for a long time, and I think it seems to you know, whoever steps in and there's just certain organizations. You know, we saw it with Manchester United for for a long time, you know, at a club level where you know, whoever comes in with great pedigree just can't can't turn it around. And it seems the same with England, like they've had great managers, but there's just something there that you know, a fear of not succeeding that's probably running deeper than everyone wants to admit, and you know it's you know, it'll be a tough question for the FA to answer now, like what do we do? Do we pay him off and let him go? And is there someone out there that fits the bill that we want to that we want to be that's also another question.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: So they need to look in with it the sort of managers they hire before they decide, who are they even the right people to decide who should manage England and perhaps that is why they will back to it, because the conservative decision is the right one. Just on Argentina, because we have given them some credit. We've spoken about Messi his first ever game international against England. It had to wait until age thirty nine. But what about some of the other players, Enzo Fernandez, Christian Romero, Julian Alvarez, Alexis McAllister. I mean three of their best five players on the pitch were players that play in the English Premier League. Thomas, how big a factor was that? And how big a factor is the globalization of the Premier League removing that fear factor for Argentines to you know, never give up, unwavering belief. And it felt as though stoppage time it didn't matter how long or short it was. As soon as the equalizer went in, I thought it was going to end without extra time, and sure enough it did.
00:25:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't think it sort of matters where they where they're playing. I think it's more it's more the DNA I think that Argentina has built, you know, the story again, back to to the history. You know, they they know they've got a player, you know, in Messi you know, we.
00:26:07
Speaker 5: We see it in every sport.
00:26:09
Speaker 4: If you've got that X factor, everyone is willing to run a bit extra. It's it's, you know, to to sacrifice themselves and I think you.
00:26:20
Speaker 5: Know, it's it was just so impressive the fight.
00:26:23
Speaker 4: You know, they were standing up to the English from the start, you know, they know, and obviously it meant a fair bit to them. And there was a few political statements after the game I saw, and there might be some some finds coming for for Argentina. So so yeah, it it just felt like it meant more to Argentina and it meant to England. And that's also the disappointing part. It just felt like England. Yeah, just same old and yeah, I understand what Jeremi O'Hara, what is what he's on about.
00:26:51
Speaker 1: We do have to leave the discussion.
00:26:53
Speaker 2: They will get any additional thoughts on Argentina when we look ahead to the final, but we're going to talk about their opponent. They are coming up on talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: This is talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
00:27:10
Speaker 2: We have Andy Harper in the United States of America and Denmark World Cup goalkeeper Thomas Sorenson joining you. For this episode jump into the YouTube comments if you're watching us on YouTube. Lots to discuss in the England, Dargi and Tina game, but we're going to look at the other semi final now between Spain and France. A two nil win, a penalty drawn by Lamin Yamal, and then Michael Jazabal scoring it in the first half, and then Pedro Poro popping up just before the hour mark, a near toothless display from the French harps. Do this completely defy your expectations of what you thought the game might be.
00:27:46
Speaker 3: Tayo, I'm not ashamed to say that as a paid pundit, my reputation is hanging by a thread now. The only thread is that I have that keeps me going is that I'd did say and believe the team that beats France will win the World Cup, and that happens now be Spain, but they're going to find Argentina very difficult. This was utterly inexplicable, utterly inexplicable. And I tell you when I was as a not a France supporter, but I doubled down, triple down, quadrupled down on their primacy to be the champions of the world. The first two or three touches in the match to me was like watching Australia versus USA, and like watching USA versus Belgium. The threat I'm joining here between those three performances is from the get go it was clear that France weren't there. They weren't there at the level mentally they needed to be. I'd love to know why are they spooked? Are they spooked by Spain and his's he got dragged after sixty minutes. I think, Michael Alisa up until yesterday, Thomas, would you agree as in the discussion for the best player in the tournament and so in the opening minutes, and we go back and watch the tape because I remember it's starkly that's when my barometers up. Argentina and England both came out to play. Both teams set a foundation to give them a chance at success, and we watch an incredible semi final, notwithstanding England shortcomings. From the kickoff. In this match, Alisa is mistouching the ball. The players, with his incredible technique can't get a decent first touch in the face of this Spanish conslaught, and I'm thinking at that point this ain't happening. And I know it's a different register Australia and the US, but that's what happened to Australia. The preparation for that start in the US game was just non existent and they lost because of it. And it's the same with France. I just never got better from them than even the penalty concession twenty minutes in or whatever it was. Thomas didn't ye that bull's coming from so high. He's in his box. Is he not even thinking for a second that there's going to be some sneaky bastard around me trying to get the ball? It was ridiculous.
00:30:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's the difference, you know, the composure. I think you hit it a spot on there, and it sort of seemed like, you know, a team versus a group of individuals that were hoping for a bit of magic. And I've got huge respect for what Dela Ferente has done with this Spanish side. They obviously have a philosophy that that's you know, goes twenty years back. You know that started with obviously the tik taka and everything else. But you know what, they're just a team that's so well drilled. You know, they've got arguably I think the best defensive midfielder in Roder, who's just a general. And you know, they they press, they make it hard for you, and I think they closed the passing lanes for most of the game into Mbappe. They knew that, you know, cut off the supply to these forward players. You know, then you know, you look at the rest of the team, Rabio two or many in midfield, it's not you know, it's not. It's not something that's going to scare you. And you know, I think it's and I think that showed, you know, it's just a better team that beat a team that was more individuals and we're hoping for, you know, that brilliance that we've seen them come up with in earlier rounds.
00:31:25
Speaker 3: Okay, but that gets to my point. So yeah, we can use too many and Rabbio you can identify as not in the Spain class of technicians, so we know that, right. But the players who have been quite brilliant in tight situations, scoring goals where there's no goal to be scored, Usemond and Bell bellondor winner and Bube writes his own headlines, Alisa, who's been peerless until this, these guys couldn't find space to play, but they lost the march. Whatever marginal advantage they might have had coming into the game as a top player against the that it was shaved away somehow. And I put it down to the mental state of the players against Spain, who were so well organized and they do their stuff so well. In your point about the twenty year generational cookie cutters, they've got players coming in, wingers, they've got sixers, they've got eights, they got everything the system is doing. Like I said on the program the other day, I think that the country that's come closest to splitting the atom that is football. I thought this game would be one on the margins of athleticism where France had that ability because their athletes can also play. But their athletes didn't play at least they has been uncontainable for six games and then you get to this match. You can't pass the football. I put that down to preparation. Whatever the coach has done or not done. In the end, he's responsible for preparing his team, and I convinced they weren't ready to play, not in the way they needed to.
00:32:52
Speaker 2: I do wonder is it as basic as France have actually run into the one team that is better than them, and they just happened to be them in the semifinal rather than the final. I suppose even at the eighty minute mark, where they hadn't played well, they're two nil down, they hadn't barely created a chance to actually score. I was thinking, well at this stage of the twenty twenty two World Cup final and Bape just flipped the switch and France at least got the game to extratirement. You can never really write them off for that reason, with the individual talents that they have. So Thomas Harps has made the point that it might have been mental. I mean, with Deschamp leaving after the third place playoff and Zadan coming in does a new voice, does someone with his gravitas of winning the Champions League so many times as Real Madrid manager and his playing career before that? Is that the hump they need to get over Spain? Or I mean, because it's now three defeats in three years at the same time of the year, is it as simple as Spanish just the one team that Franz can't beat, and had someone else done the favor of knocking them out, Franz might have won the World Cup after all.
00:33:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know it's you know, we've got to look at a Spanish side.
00:33:58
Speaker 3: Is thing for me.
00:34:00
Speaker 4: If they win this World Cup, this team will go down as arguably one of the best in history. You know, we're talking about a team that haven't lost in thirty thirty six games.
00:34:12
Speaker 5: You know that that is an unreal record.
00:34:15
Speaker 4: You know, they've you know, they're just marginally the you know, the Nation's league. They lost it in penalty shootout, but other than that, you know, they've been flawless.
00:34:24
Speaker 5: And I think you just saw what the difference was.
00:34:27
Speaker 4: You saw, you know, the team element of it.
00:34:33
Speaker 5: France has something that they can add. They have by father.
00:34:37
Speaker 4: You know, looking at these two squads individual talent, I think they're trump every team. But you know that that would be the job for cyny in Sidan.
00:34:47
Speaker 5: He's got the horror.
00:34:47
Speaker 4: He's managed big players at Real Madrid, obviously, but I think that's where France needs to take this the next step and to beat to beat Spain, because Spain is the team to beat.
00:34:59
Speaker 5: It's not Argentina. It's been for me.
00:35:01
Speaker 4: So you know that that's going to be a big task because that's the only thing he'll be judged off, He'll be judged on, you know, beating beating the best teams.
00:35:11
Speaker 3: I think that's a really that that's a really good point, Thomas, because even those and Taylor brought up the five nil lead that Spain took only to win the game five to four a couple of tournaments ago, and at too nil, I'm thinking, well, they don't have as big amountain to climb, and that they could do it this time. And at eighty minutes, where they're spreading the ball, they're around the Spain penalty are and they're getting some one on one situations attacker on defender, And at this point I want to join this back to my mentality thing, which to me stood out in the very first moments of the game, when great players and miscontrolling the pass. Then you get to that now to the end when when they've got the ball, they're putting pressure on they've got players wide situations one v one, And this is where it's mental for me. This is what it looks like to me anyway, That's how I come up with this thesis. Every other game, every other opponent, those one on one situations Barkla or Damble or due squares up, the defender takes him on down the line, gets to the ball and cuts it back eight times out of ten, nine times out of ten, someone's got to tap it in or score or whatever. On each and every occasion. Almost against Spain, same scenario against Kouka on one side, and I can't remember the right full backs name, but you get the point. Pedra Pora of course the match winner. No great players, but almost on every occasion, the not past the defender is too heavy, it goes out for a goal kick, same attacker, same scenario, same football opportunity. Against Spain, they crumble, their touch goes This is the deeper inquiry from the French Football Federation because it's a mental thing with Spain and Taoe. I think you're right. If someone else had done the business on Spain, I can't see anyone stopping.
00:37:03
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the Spanish because they've only conceded the one goal. It was against Belgium. They've only really obliterated one team, which was the Saudis. Amazingly, Lemin Yamahal scored in the Saudi game, hasn't scored in any of the other games, hasn't necessarily reached his best. Nico Williams has been a bit of a cameo sub at best. He's barely played any minutes, barely sixty combined minutes for the tournament, and they were Yamal and Nico Williams were two of their best players as they won the Euros only two years ago. What is it about Spain that means that even with their biggest guns or their most dynamic risk reward players not firing, that they have this stability, this ability to control games, Thomas, They've only conceded the one goal. What do you put it down to? Is it as simple as the fa the management, the program? Is that just this generation of talent. Are there other things you see which leads to just such control over not just individual games but an entire tournament.
00:38:05
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it also comes down to, you know, the upbringing. I think you know, you're looking at all the players, you know a lot of them are quite similar. You look at Danny Olmo, Fabian Ruez, by Aina, Michael Marino, you know, like in some way I can't really distinguish them, but they're all incredibly skilled.
00:38:24
Speaker 5: Incredibly calm on the ball.
00:38:26
Speaker 4: Tactically they do something in Spain that seems to just be, you know, sitting on the spine. Every player they bring in, you know, has this incredible intellectual understanding of the game. They read it so well. And yes, you know, it's frightening that La Mina mel has only probably played at seventy percent because you would expect, you know, for him, like we've seen with all the other top players, that you have to shine at the World Cup and now me saying this, he'll probably scored two in the final. But you know, it's it's it's it's a proper team performance. And back to what you said, Harps, I think you look at Poro and Cookware like they're not known for their defensive strength, like they're they're always maybe criticized for that.
00:39:14
Speaker 5: They're they're they're sort of odd, but they're they're good going forward.
00:39:17
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's such a well oided machine the Spanish side.
00:39:23
Speaker 3: It has to be systemic too. Tom Thomas is right, you know, Yeah, players drop out, other players come in and they've got cookie cutters for everything and they've done an incredible job. Hence hence my proposition that they've come as closed and you know, they haven't generated the romance of the Brazilian teams in the sixties and seventies into the eight There's no jogo bonito about this. Maybe you're a little bit dissensitized to this because the globalization of soccer has enabled us to watch you know, the Barcelona, the Milans, the Ticke attackers. We've all sort of grown up with these expectations. So no one's jumping out of South America like Tosstown and Palo. I haven't seen these before. These guys are brilliant, so that sort of changes the discussion, but quite clearly, and I put Portugal in a similar category. Tom's I'm not sure if you'd agree with this, but that Iberian peninsula, they just produce a formula and everyone gets it. Everyone knows what's expected, they know what it's incredible. It's incredible. So we sort of teased the other night Theayo's. Tayo suggested that Spain were going to come out like a coiled snake and just strike, and I sort of relented. But they don't do that. They just squeeze the game out of all its life. You know, they don't have a thousand chances, they don't give up a thousand chances, but they squeeze the life out of opponents, and France they had the life squeezed out of them before kickoff.
00:40:39
Speaker 1: I think you've you said your stocks were down.
00:40:41
Speaker 2: As a pundit, Hulfs the poet constrictor analogy was perfect for this game.
00:40:44
Speaker 1: I think you got it spot on. Now, just a quick look ahead the third place playoff.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Neither team ever wants to play this game should have countter, what's the Golden Boot? And Bapo's got eight messis now ahead of him on the tie break for assists to three. But if Dude Bellingham or Harry Kane scores a hat trick in the third place playoff or den Bela scores for do they really deserve to win the Golden Boot? Or should the third place? I know Croati fans worn't like this because Devil Suka won the Golden Boot in nineteen ninety eight by scoring in the third place playoff.
00:41:12
Speaker 1: But should it count towards the Golden Boot?
00:41:14
Speaker 4: Tommy, Yeah, no, it's it's it's within the same tournament. So yeah, for for me, that's okay, Like I'm more in the camp I should we scrap that third place playoff? Altogether, it's just a meaningful games, a meaningless game.
00:41:30
Speaker 2: We've got the world we've got the World Cup, and then we've got the Who Cares Cup and we play the.
00:41:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, first one.
00:41:34
Speaker 4: It's not a game I can get excited. And you know, we don't know what teams are. They're gonna you know, they're gonna field. There will be some some obviously bench players that's going to get a shot.
00:41:44
Speaker 5: And for these two teams.
00:41:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe if like, let's say, for my point of view, if Denmark was you know, I would love Denmark to get a bronze medal, but I don't think France or England I do care anything about a bronze medal.
00:41:56
Speaker 2: That's a good point though, because if Norway had made it passed into the cell, they would be playing hard in the third place playoff. Perhaps let's look ahead to Monday's final, just quick reactionary thoughts on what is going to be a spectacle build In similar fashion, twenty twenty two has set the bar so ridiculously high. Is it possible that Spain and Argentina could match that spectacle? Given that traditionally most football finals, domestic leagues, Champions League, World Cup finals, they are classic Cagy games decided by occasional moments. They are not all timers like the one we got in twenty twenty two in Qatar.
00:42:37
Speaker 3: No, it's good. It'll be appealing for its own reasons. The messy thing, I mean, can he can he deliver? Can he become the undisputed champion, champion of the history of football with back to back World Cups. I mean that's a discussion for another day. I think there's a lot of threads around this. It'll tight really nicely. I'm not expecting a shootout. I mean, Spain unless France don't get into shootouts. But they're almost going to be unbackckable favorites Thomas Spain. But that there's some this this Argentina find a way. They find a way, And I don't know if there's anything in the colony versus the former colonial master. I know they speak Spanish, but Argentinians are basically Italian immigrants. Are they living in a French design cities to speaking Spanish? Look, I'm not I'm not getting a bit off track. There is this a thing for them. I don't know, it's going to be a hell of a game. I think Spain are going to win it. But my tipping through this tournament has been so bad. Thankfully ve only got one more game to put my head on the block.
00:43:36
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I'm so.
00:43:38
Speaker 4: I'm so intrigued about, Like, we know what Spain's approach is going to be, but I can't wait to see what Argentina do.
00:43:45
Speaker 5: Do they actually you know, do they.
00:43:47
Speaker 4: Come out and stick it, you know, you know, try to intimidate, be physical. I'm sure they will, and you know, can they get under the skin of these Spanish players, you know, because they certainly got under the skin of the English and a few of the other teams. So you know it's gonna He's so fascinating, and yeah, I think it's going to be a great final.
00:44:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you.
00:44:10
Speaker 4: I don't think he'll be a five to four or something like that, but you know, we'll we'll see some.
00:44:14
Speaker 5: Great individual brilliance.
00:44:15
Speaker 4: We'll see some you know, some superb football, I'm sure and yeah, yeah, yeah, you.
00:44:22
Speaker 5: Can't count out. I haven't seen. I think I think.
00:44:24
Speaker 3: We've learned that up to this point, Thomas, do we know I'll sort of put this on the last show. Do we know enough about Spain's goalkeeper in a big moment because we've seen Martinez he's had to do his thing and Spain haven't had to really be troubled yet.
00:44:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like I would still say in this tournament, I don't think Martinez is instill like too much confidence. I don't think he's been particularly great, but he has shown in big moments that he you know, he steps up, you know he he obviously saved some penalties when they won the copper like the South American Championship, and obviously last time at the World Championship he was great. Then you know that save he made in the final, so you know what, they could play a big part. And you know, somem On you know again, he's a he's a European champion, you know what, He's been there in some stage.
00:45:17
Speaker 3: In some senses, Thomas I could keep going in the Spanish team because.
00:45:22
Speaker 4: You sort of no harps, no harps, you couldn't.
00:45:28
Speaker 5: No, no, he couldn't.
00:45:32
Speaker 1: Work on the passport halfs. Then then maybe we can revisit all right.
00:45:37
Speaker 2: I do think Spain would have encounted for England comfortably, but Argentina are disruptors and I do think they will as Thomas flagged have the the edge, physicality, intimidation, zero fear factor for Messi having played so much of his career in La Liga, zero unknowns. So I think Argentina can do it if I can just get.
00:45:58
Speaker 1: A tip to finish.
00:45:59
Speaker 2: Gentlemen, before we wrap this episode, Thomas lead us off who will win Monday's final?
00:46:05
Speaker 4: You know it's got to be a titus for a fair but I'm actually going to stick my neck out and say that Argentina's going to win two one.
00:46:13
Speaker 1: Halps. The final say is yours.
00:46:16
Speaker 3: So that's two next going out, which means double the Goose impact I'm going for as well.
00:46:21
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, so I don't believe that.
00:46:24
Speaker 3: I don't believe it. I haven't got a tip right in one hundred and twenty games. Why am I going to start now?
00:46:29
Speaker 1: Well? Hey, yeah, save it for the big one.
00:46:32
Speaker 2: Everyone's going to perhaps judge this tournament on how it ends, if it ends in a in a really strong fashion or in a sour note, but we'll find all of that out. Make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and also to the talkSPORT Australia YouTube channel.
00:46:45
Speaker 1: Leave the comments there.
00:46:46
Speaker 2: We've loved them coming in and give us your thoughts on who will win the World Cup Final and why.
00:46:51
Speaker 1: Thomas Sorenson, thanks for joining.
00:46:52
Speaker 5: Us, Hi, it's for pleasure.
00:46:55
Speaker 2: And Andy Harper, do you have tickets for the final? Are you going to be in New.
00:46:59
Speaker 3: J i'ill be in New York City on the night of the final, flying out the next day, but not going to the game.
00:47:06
Speaker 1: Enjoy the experience.
00:47:07
Speaker 3: Three hundred dollars train tickets sort of turned me off.
00:47:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I.
00:47:12
Speaker 5: Thought you were going to say three hundred dollars ticket for the game. I'm not paying that.
00:47:17
Speaker 3: I'll have ten.
00:47:20
Speaker 2: Sensational stuff fellas. Thank you for the deep diving too both semifinals today. I'm Teo Pelasera, your host. Thanks for your company on talkSPORT World Cup Shootout. We will speak to you soon.
Speaker 1: Welcome to talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
00:00:10
Speaker 2: We've got our World Cup final matchup and two fascinating semifinals that got us here.
00:00:16
Speaker 1: Tayo Pella's aera your host.
00:00:18
Speaker 2: No cat Sasso today, but we have headed over to the United States to find Andy Harper.
00:00:22
Speaker 1: It looks like you've disappeared into the woods.
00:00:24
Speaker 3: Harps.
00:00:25
Speaker 1: Where do we find you today?
00:00:26
Speaker 3: It's taken me seven weeks to find a vantage point that's not a hotel room, Tao, and finally I'm here, but it is because it's an earlier record as well. So we're just hitting twilight in Connecticut in the Northeast. Fantastic part of the world.
00:00:40
Speaker 1: You've gone back to nature and I love how it looks.
00:00:43
Speaker 2: For those listening to the podcast, you can see where Harps is on the YouTube channel. Don't forget to jump onto the talkSPORT YouTube channel and subscribe.
00:00:50
Speaker 1: And we're welcoming back.
00:00:51
Speaker 2: One of our special guests, Denmark World Cup player Thomas Sorens and Tommy. Great to see you again.
00:00:57
Speaker 4: Yeah, great to be on and obviously not as you know, out in the wild as as halves.
00:01:03
Speaker 5: I'm in the good old Melbourne.
00:01:05
Speaker 4: A bit of rain outside, so you know, I'm sure the weather's better in Connecticut.
00:01:09
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like an idiot, I thought, gee, it's a bit cold for halves to be outside, and then that I remember he's in the Northern Hemisphere.
00:01:14
Speaker 1: It's summer on must be beautiful, Taya.
00:01:16
Speaker 3: We've been having this long distance romance for about seven weeks now and you still haven't worked out that I'm in the summer time over here.
00:01:23
Speaker 1: Fantastic.
00:01:24
Speaker 2: Also, you can jump on to the listener notes the show notes for the World Cup Shootout podcast and find the talksports social media networks, get in touch with us, leave us a WhatsApp as well. Four three seven oh five double zero five. We love all your comments that are coming in on the YouTube channel as well. Let's jump into the semifinals and trace the steps for how we got to the World Cup Final, and we start with Argentina coming from behind to beat England. Gentlemen, I won't preface it with then anything other than your thoughts. Please take it away, Harps, what did you make of the semifinal?
00:02:00
Speaker 3: It was a gripping encounter, another very dramatic game, and again England collapsed and they had the opportunity to break this sixty year cycle in the palm of their hands, a position they'd earned through a very effective start to the match. But as soon as they scored, they retreated and the pylons already started. About Twurkle's instruction to do that, I'm not sure if it was a direct instruction. Thomas would have some interesting thoughts on that, or it just the players fed off and just did that themselves. Of course, twokeles substitutions will talk about those fed into the whole process of funneling back in and it's defending deep. But they totally conceded, utterly, unintentionally. I'm sure thought they were doing the right thing, and it's just an epic fail in the end because they'd done so well, Thomas, and they were nearly there. And what is it about football coaches or players? I've quoted Ange a few times. I wanted him to coach the Japan team because with Ange coaching Japan, they beat Brazil instead of going into their shell. England fans aren't gonna like hearing this because Ange had his history in England. But if he was coaching that team won nill up even against a Missy inspired they wouldn't have they wouldn't have retreated seventy five minutes in as soon as I got the goal No. Way nine nine.
00:03:23
Speaker 4: I think, you know, it's it's sometimes you know, coaches, you know, they get stuck in their ways and and for me, it felt like Twoko was sort of copy copy and pasting because you know they I know, they were down to ten minute against Mexico was similar, you know, getting Conco on, getting Dan burn on. They did the same against Norway. You know, obviously it had worked, but I think it's also him underestimating who he was up against. You know, he's up against arguably the best player. In those situations, you don't want messy around your box, you know.
00:03:54
Speaker 3: And I think if the World.
00:03:56
Speaker 4: Cup has shown us anything is that the teams that are actually brave, that are on the front foot, has been the most successful. And you know, Argentina just found you know, a second gear, third gear and the tactical you know, they you know, you know, getting Lato Martinez on, you know, you know, just piling on attacking players.
00:04:17
Speaker 5: Where England, I.
00:04:18
Speaker 4: Think the Srikanca substitution, taking Anthony Gordon off, I think that that was the turning point, you know, suddenly you, like you said, Habs, you're going back into your shell and you're sort of given the initiative. And then you know, the last thirty five minutes. You know, Argentina had I think thirteen crosses and more or less all of them from that right hand side, and Jed Spencer I thought was brilliant. He was taken off as well. So so many things, bad decisions I feel for England were made in those last thirty minutes.
00:04:50
Speaker 3: It was an amazing sequence because having set the platform and doing well it was It's just incredible to me, I'm watching the first sixty minut something. Geez, Thomas Tuckle's done a good job, not necessarily in this game, but you know, Jed Spence was a great off the bench. He gets a start and that was a ripping decision, a ripping decision. He was fantastic until I'll get to the until his decisions with other players in and out, and Gordon who was a squad player until he comes on and changes the game, then wins the penalty against Mexico and scores the goal. Today, a lot of these things have been vindicated for Twukele, and he's a really likable character. I've spoken a lot with English journos on the raid. Here is within within the bubble that's English football officially, players and media. He's very, very popular. And I'm sorry I other bloke, but I'm watching and thinking, you know what, they haven't been They haven't set the world on fire, but they're almost in the World Cup final and almost the chance to get that gorilla off their shoulders. And this was all building into that story until the secret, and still it started to unravel. Now, for the life of Mick Thomas, why when you've got your foot on Argentina's throat do you roll up your swag and go back to your penalty area and just give Messi everything he wants, everything on the planet that he wants. And Scoloney moved him nicely out to the wing to the Jed Spence thing quickly. I thought he was fantastic. But the winning goal comes from two things. Apart from the general growth in momentum. John Stones goes down with a head injury. The game has to stop because john Stones misheaded the ball in that cross There was no contact with the goalkeeper Pickford, but he went down and need attention. It was a long stoppage. Clearly there was something wrong. John Stones goes off for the mandatory moment. Whatever head injury assessment they did, it was either a theater show to try and take some steam out of the game, or he was crook. He runs straight back on the field. Then you get to the goal scoring sequence. McAllister hits the boast, the ball bounces out to guess who line on Messi. Just before that happens, Jed Spence goes down to stitch cramp. He's injured at that moment. With cramp, the ballfars to Messy. Messy senses all this he might have even seen with that seven hundred and twenty degree perioferal vision that Jed Spence, who's been so good today, actually he's just blown a gasket. Messi sees it, ball falls to him. It's the only time in the game he would have decided to take on Jed Spence on to his right foot. This is the genius of Messi beat Spence. No one's done at all. Night gets a right footed cross in. Who's not there John Stones? Should he have even been on the field medically, let alone tactically. It was a huge thing. And before I completely take over. We'll probably too late for that. We all admire Linel Messi, my or hit another level watching him drive this ship today, and particularly because we're very aware of his goal scoring, his quick feet, some of the hits he took physically. Elliott gave it to him, Harry Kane gave it to him. The guy was immovable. This little fella completely immovable, could not be knocked off the ball, and we've seen it. But it just came through in technicolor today beautifully. And he went up in If it's possible, he went up in my estimation even more today.
00:08:20
Speaker 5: Is that possible?
00:08:23
Speaker 4: You know, he has to, at least in the modern era, by far and above everyone else. I think, you know, if anyone was in doubt before this World Cup, I think he's he's curmended it. But what I like about this Argentinian side is they've just got a terrier in them. You know, they've got that South American grit and I think you said there with Messi, but every single player, you know, they you know, they'll.
00:08:47
Speaker 5: Take you to the brink.
00:08:48
Speaker 3: You know.
00:08:48
Speaker 4: It's like a you know, a fighter. You know he's in the corner, but he's fighting for his life and and that's allver every single ball, especially that midfield with Perettas, McAllister and Fernandes. I think they they totally took over against Declan, Riace and Anderson and you know whoever was in there, Bellingham and you know, I think that was also deciding fact that they bullied England the last forty five minutes.
00:09:13
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So you've prompted a couple more thoughts, and I hope you don't promp me too much because we haven't got enough time for all the thoughts to come out. Firstly, England just not good enough. When Argentina were given the opportunity to attack, the quality of their crossing was fantastic. When England go one to one and then back to one two, the quality of the England crossing was shit. These are English Premier League players who couldn't cross the road when the time asked for them to do it. Incredible. The scene was said at the national anthems, if you can wind it back and watch the camera pan past every Argentinian player singing that national anthem, it makes you blood curdle. I mean, these guys mean it, they really mean it. Fantastic And thirdly, I'm not railing on dud bellinga m I love him. He's had a great tournament. People are saying he's been the player of the tournament. But when the whips were cracking today, either his team couldn't find him or he couldn't get in the game. Again, I go to the time when England retreated, gave Argentina everything they wanted. Messy steps up. They find him in England's time of need or bit in a truncated time space. Belling and barely touched the book.
00:10:26
Speaker 2: So I want to pick up on it before we get into more of why Argentina won. I want to just unpick some of the threads you've raised about why England came up short. Firstly on the mentality, whether or not it was instruction from Tukel, whether it was simply dictated by his substitutions. Let's see what Harry Kane had to say postmatch, and I'll get your thoughts on maybe what the mindset that was permeating throughout the England squad.
00:10:51
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a similar story to what's happened in previous tournaments. I feel like we struggle to keep the momentum of the game we've done so well for that kind of sixty minutes we scored, we deserve to be ahead. And then for one reason or another, we struggled to keep the ball, we struggled to put pressure on the ball, and it just allowed them to create more momentum, It created more attached for them in our final third, and then, yeah, it's a normal mindset to try and hang on and try and hang on to the one goal lead. But you know, we're still twenty minutes plus Stop is signed to go. It was always going to be a long time, So yeah, we're gonna have to watch the game back and find out exactly how we can improve in those situations. But it's been probably the missing piece now for you know, the last four or five toordaments.
00:11:34
Speaker 1: It's a normal mindset to hold on to a one nill lead.
00:11:37
Speaker 2: And this is why we love the immediate post match interviews, because there's no chance for coaches and captains to put their heads together on a message. There's no chance for pr people to curate a message to the fans, to the outside world. That's raw, that's real. And his default response was it is natural to hold on. Perhaps having heard that now from Harry Kane, does that condemn England even more for the way they gave up their lead.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: I think so. Not condemning Harry is obviously he's peerless as a current England player, fantastic, But that's not normal. That's learned behavior. That mentality can be reprogrammed, and indeed that's Twukle's job with his leaders like Harry Kane. And you know, if it's the last couple of minutes, all right, you get in the trenches and you dare them to jag one twenty five minutes to go. You don't give them the game. And this is the this is the top league in the world. All these England players are in the top clubs in the top league in the world. They don't need to be told that. Surely, surely not. I think what Harry's Harry Kane's comments Thomas actually belie is the fact that England are overrated, and they've been overrated for years because of the English Premier League. Mexico played them off the park in that first half until Mexico ran into each other. Mexican players ran into each other, and England scored those two very good goals in the second half TOTD of tone stories pretty much every game in this tournament. England fans have been waiting for their team to play well. Maybe they just can't. Maybe it goes down to the squad select squad selections. Where's cart and Cole, Where's Phil Foden, Where's Jared Bowen? Those types of players when you need them as it come up.
00:13:18
Speaker 2: Sorry to put you up in full flow, Andy, but Carlton Cole is long retired.
00:13:23
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you're thinking before.
00:13:27
Speaker 2: I wanted to get in before the YouTube comingsviscert you for that one.
00:13:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker 5: I played with Carlton Cole when I was at Aston Villa, so it would have gone well, maybe they should have been he was it was a bit lazy. I think that's why he moved away from Chelsea.
00:13:39
Speaker 3: I think they couldn't get get one point I was. I was fulminating. Anyway, I've got it out of my system now and the correction is noted and thankfully applied. Thomas, What do you reckon?
00:13:47
Speaker 6: You know?
00:13:48
Speaker 4: I I I reckon it's a mentality thing, you know. I don't know if I agree with you that the players are not good enough. I think they've they've got en off quality and you know on the bench as well. But you know, I've played in teams where you know, the mindset is directed from the sideline and and it is a default because it's something they've done, you know, in the three previous games. And you start to see the substitutions come on, the players that are coming on, it's it's defensively minded. You know, you know, you can't you know, you can't blame concept or not wanting to defend. You know, he's not going to run up the pitch.
00:14:21
Speaker 5: And and I.
00:14:23
Speaker 4: Think, you know, it's it's something that deliberate or not deliberate changes your mindset. And I don't know when you're sitting at the edge of your box if Harry Kane is the right player to have because you need an outlet, you need pace, and and he you know, he tends to drop very deep. And and you've got Sakka, You've got Rashford on the bench, Like why don't you put them on if that's the way you want to go, because you need that outlet you need you need to keep hold of the ball, you need someone that can get up the pitch. And England didn't have those players on.
00:14:56
Speaker 3: The pitch at all.
00:14:57
Speaker 4: And I think so that there's so many layers to it, and yeah, like Hurrycane said, they can spend the next two years or looking over the video and you know it's it's going to be a horrendous time for for for the you know, for an English side with those expectations that they'll always have.
00:15:13
Speaker 3: They keep getting the coach wrong. Sorry, they keep getting the coach wrong. If it's a mentality thing, why don't they keep doubling down on similar, similar style coaches, Why don't they get some sort of cowboy in them to let the football lootse.
00:15:26
Speaker 4: Was Tom still was supposed to be that you know what the biggest difference I saw in I think it was the very last seconds of the game where you know, the balls back at Pickford. He was looking to to play out, they were looking to get forward and there was five Argentinian players hustling right at England's box. You know, they weren't back in their own you know, half or just waiting for Pickford to ping it into the box. There were there were causing problems and I think it's it is a it is something that comes from the bench and you know we've seen it, you know twice with you know, against Egypt, where Argentina managed to turn it around again and they've got those you know, extra gears that they can go into. And I think that's also scalone is you know, he should have some praise for it.
00:16:13
Speaker 3: Okay, Thomas, just quickly on this one. Sorry, Tom, there's so much to go through here, but I am suitably chastened by your takedown of me saying the England teams just not good enough. Right, But when you're watching those, when you're of because clearly they're great players, but it's quite the point, so you're you're right, I'm wrong in that general sense. But when you're watching those last moments, Thomas and argent and in England are just forced to go forward. And my point before about the quality of the delivery penalty, So how can good players forget the defensive mentality which has almost suffocated them? Now it's just shit or bust. You get the ball into a situation to deliver the ball. Argentina pretty much nailed every delivery and caused heart palpitations every time England not once, not once. How does that happen? Yeah?
00:16:59
Speaker 4: But you even saw like Pickford over hitting you know, not even hitting Dan Byrne, and you know it's it's you know, I think Martinez a few times was quite relieved that, you know, it was an easy cross for him to take.
00:17:12
Speaker 5: And I totally agree with you.
00:17:14
Speaker 4: You know it, Ultimately, modern football comes down to quality at the right time, you know. And I think we saw two teams that, you know, one delivered to the utmost most extent and the other one failed when it mattered. And I think that's probably where you can, you know, you can say that there's something missing in this England side. Despite the individual quality, they just didn't produce when it was on the line.
00:17:41
Speaker 2: Well, this is some stats to further your point about Bellingham Haups. He completed nineteen passes for the game, only forty two touches in the game, and only one completed pass into the final third. And then arguably Harry Kane had an even worse match. So when you talk about the players that were left out for England, Thomas Tukle seemingly backed by the public when he named his squad that this was going to be about getting the best out of the superstars and also about team harmony and team balance. This seems like such a major backfire when you talk about a change of philosophy, do England also need to go back to one where they need to bring in a coach who is rather than building a squad surrounded on vibes, one that can actually find a shape to work their best players. The thing that dogged them throughout the twenty's and the twenty tens where they tried to put square pegs in round holes. But have they simply got a situation where they need a manager to find a solution to embrace the talents and get the best out of the talents.
00:18:41
Speaker 3: That's such a broad question. I think there's culturally an issue with the way England celebrates its players and the types of players that are accepted. I mean, anytime a squad's announced, there's always conjecture on who who and why why. My first reaction from a distance when Turkle announced this squad is where's Palmer wears? Phil Foden wears Jared Bowen. Okay, you know it's a split hair between selections, but there are certain styles of players in England Thomas who are easier to drop than others. Not personalities, not characters, certain styles of players. I mean Paul Eifel, our friend from Wellington Phoenix, fantastic post career commentator, is becoming used to refer to himself as a Premier League player, then championship players a luxury in England, my style of players a luxury player. I don't think many countries have a similar view, which leads me into a broader discussion. Ze to me, I think he's feud as one of these luxury type players. He had what maybe seventy minutes eighty minutes of football in this World Cup in most other countries European, including players like starting and it dovetails into this other discussion which is not for now, and unfortunately had a crap game in the other semi final. How does the English system Liz markolsa, How does a kid who grows up in England developed by the English system say, I want to applay for France.
00:20:10
Speaker 4: Oh you can go like Mozilla. I think I was there and left, you know, chose Germany. So that those you know, those stories are you know they're not thinking no, no, for sure not and and yeah there's probably a deeper dive into you know, mentality, you know, as you said, are they celebrated to you know, to too highly. Do they have that edge when it matters. I think that's probably what it comes down to a little bit. I think that was very evident in this game Argentina. Argentina had the edge. I don't know if that's their upbringing, you know, they you know, there's it's just like you said with with the national anthem, there's just this like they would go to the edge of the world and die.
00:20:55
Speaker 5: There for their country.
00:20:56
Speaker 4: You know, it means something that it doesn't mean to every player around the world. And you can just see in these moments that they can just put the whole package together of passion, quality, togetherness, a fighting spirit, and yeah, they you know, they seem unbeatable when when they sort of when they get to that point.
00:21:21
Speaker 2: One more in England before we get to Argentina, let's hear from one of our talkSPORT colleagues in the United Kingdom, Jamie O'Hara and his live reaction to Argentina winning the game.
00:21:31
Speaker 7: We could have had Russia, we could have had soccer. We had so much more to give in this game, and we just retreated. It's a terrible decision. This is what he's brought it for to get this decision right.
00:21:43
Speaker 3: We're out.
00:21:45
Speaker 7: It's the worst decision ever. It's a soccer ball fans Argentina won it in a ninety second minute. It's a shocking, shocking decision. Thomas Tukle, you should be embarrassed. Suck him, Suck him, suck him.
00:21:57
Speaker 1: There's the reaction of Jamie O'Hara.
00:21:59
Speaker 2: Now, the journalists covering England at the World Cup have said that Fachief executive Mark Bullingham has backed Thomas Tukele to remain in charge of England through to Euro twenty twenty eight, So an instant response to elimination. But I put it to you two, my personal opinion is that this situation is only going to be more toxic. And regardless of how England qualify for Euro twenty twenty eight, there's no trust.
00:22:23
Speaker 1: The trust is irreparably broken.
00:22:25
Speaker 2: Thomas Tuckle should go harps am I shooting first and asking questions later, or like j M O'Hara, is it Sakim Sakim sack well, I might.
00:22:33
Speaker 3: You can understand the visceral reaction of England fans and a fair bit of hyperbole in the emotion coming through from our colleague, completely understandable. You can't see how it's going to last. I mean, I'm going to put us in the Australia in this category as well, Australia US France just to pick three in their own way. Great tournaments, but the way it finished is so disappointing. At clouds all the good stuff that happened and all the heroics and maybe that England have reinforced through their run through have covered over the fact that in no game did they particularly dominate anyone this collection of fine players, So that issue remains. Had Argentina won two one today in England died on their feet pushing hard, just couldn't quite get a goalkeeper heroics, I think Turkle might be on firmer ground. But unfortunately all the great stories and the emergence of Jude Billingham, which is a great story until today, it all gets lost in the depressing nature of the capitulation. It just clouds everything. Thomas. I think it's going to be a really tough time for him.
00:23:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's two long years and I'm sure you know. And it's also so hard to come in and say, okay, we'll review everything and we're going to change the approach and you know, we're going to be more offensive minded and all these things. And I think the history of England also plays a part. You know, there's there's this immense amount of pressure that that's been holding them down for a long time, and I think it seems to you know, whoever steps in and there's just certain organizations. You know, we saw it with Manchester United for for a long time, you know, at a club level where you know, whoever comes in with great pedigree just can't can't turn it around. And it seems the same with England, like they've had great managers, but there's just something there that you know, a fear of not succeeding that's probably running deeper than everyone wants to admit, and you know it's you know, it'll be a tough question for the FA to answer now, like what do we do? Do we pay him off and let him go? And is there someone out there that fits the bill that we want to that we want to be that's also another question.
00:24:53
Speaker 2: So they need to look in with it the sort of managers they hire before they decide, who are they even the right people to decide who should manage England and perhaps that is why they will back to it, because the conservative decision is the right one. Just on Argentina, because we have given them some credit. We've spoken about Messi his first ever game international against England. It had to wait until age thirty nine. But what about some of the other players, Enzo Fernandez, Christian Romero, Julian Alvarez, Alexis McAllister. I mean three of their best five players on the pitch were players that play in the English Premier League. Thomas, how big a factor was that? And how big a factor is the globalization of the Premier League removing that fear factor for Argentines to you know, never give up, unwavering belief. And it felt as though stoppage time it didn't matter how long or short it was. As soon as the equalizer went in, I thought it was going to end without extra time, and sure enough it did.
00:25:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't think it sort of matters where they where they're playing. I think it's more it's more the DNA I think that Argentina has built, you know, the story again, back to to the history. You know, they they know they've got a player, you know, in Messi you know, we.
00:26:07
Speaker 5: We see it in every sport.
00:26:09
Speaker 4: If you've got that X factor, everyone is willing to run a bit extra. It's it's, you know, to to sacrifice themselves and I think you.
00:26:20
Speaker 5: Know, it's it was just so impressive the fight.
00:26:23
Speaker 4: You know, they were standing up to the English from the start, you know, they know, and obviously it meant a fair bit to them. And there was a few political statements after the game I saw, and there might be some some finds coming for for Argentina. So so yeah, it it just felt like it meant more to Argentina and it meant to England. And that's also the disappointing part. It just felt like England. Yeah, just same old and yeah, I understand what Jeremi O'Hara, what is what he's on about.
00:26:51
Speaker 1: We do have to leave the discussion.
00:26:53
Speaker 2: They will get any additional thoughts on Argentina when we look ahead to the final, but we're going to talk about their opponent. They are coming up on talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
00:27:08
Speaker 1: This is talkSPORT World Cup Shootout.
00:27:10
Speaker 2: We have Andy Harper in the United States of America and Denmark World Cup goalkeeper Thomas Sorenson joining you. For this episode jump into the YouTube comments if you're watching us on YouTube. Lots to discuss in the England, Dargi and Tina game, but we're going to look at the other semi final now between Spain and France. A two nil win, a penalty drawn by Lamin Yamal, and then Michael Jazabal scoring it in the first half, and then Pedro Poro popping up just before the hour mark, a near toothless display from the French harps. Do this completely defy your expectations of what you thought the game might be.
00:27:46
Speaker 3: Tayo, I'm not ashamed to say that as a paid pundit, my reputation is hanging by a thread now. The only thread is that I have that keeps me going is that I'd did say and believe the team that beats France will win the World Cup, and that happens now be Spain, but they're going to find Argentina very difficult. This was utterly inexplicable, utterly inexplicable. And I tell you when I was as a not a France supporter, but I doubled down, triple down, quadrupled down on their primacy to be the champions of the world. The first two or three touches in the match to me was like watching Australia versus USA, and like watching USA versus Belgium. The threat I'm joining here between those three performances is from the get go it was clear that France weren't there. They weren't there at the level mentally they needed to be. I'd love to know why are they spooked? Are they spooked by Spain and his's he got dragged after sixty minutes. I think, Michael Alisa up until yesterday, Thomas, would you agree as in the discussion for the best player in the tournament and so in the opening minutes, and we go back and watch the tape because I remember it's starkly that's when my barometers up. Argentina and England both came out to play. Both teams set a foundation to give them a chance at success, and we watch an incredible semi final, notwithstanding England shortcomings. From the kickoff. In this match, Alisa is mistouching the ball. The players, with his incredible technique can't get a decent first touch in the face of this Spanish conslaught, and I'm thinking at that point this ain't happening. And I know it's a different register Australia and the US, but that's what happened to Australia. The preparation for that start in the US game was just non existent and they lost because of it. And it's the same with France. I just never got better from them than even the penalty concession twenty minutes in or whatever it was. Thomas didn't ye that bull's coming from so high. He's in his box. Is he not even thinking for a second that there's going to be some sneaky bastard around me trying to get the ball? It was ridiculous.
00:30:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's the difference, you know, the composure. I think you hit it a spot on there, and it sort of seemed like, you know, a team versus a group of individuals that were hoping for a bit of magic. And I've got huge respect for what Dela Ferente has done with this Spanish side. They obviously have a philosophy that that's you know, goes twenty years back. You know that started with obviously the tik taka and everything else. But you know what, they're just a team that's so well drilled. You know, they've got arguably I think the best defensive midfielder in Roder, who's just a general. And you know, they they press, they make it hard for you, and I think they closed the passing lanes for most of the game into Mbappe. They knew that, you know, cut off the supply to these forward players. You know, then you know, you look at the rest of the team, Rabio two or many in midfield, it's not you know, it's not. It's not something that's going to scare you. And you know, I think it's and I think that showed, you know, it's just a better team that beat a team that was more individuals and we're hoping for, you know, that brilliance that we've seen them come up with in earlier rounds.
00:31:25
Speaker 3: Okay, but that gets to my point. So yeah, we can use too many and Rabbio you can identify as not in the Spain class of technicians, so we know that, right. But the players who have been quite brilliant in tight situations, scoring goals where there's no goal to be scored, Usemond and Bell bellondor winner and Bube writes his own headlines, Alisa, who's been peerless until this, these guys couldn't find space to play, but they lost the march. Whatever marginal advantage they might have had coming into the game as a top player against the that it was shaved away somehow. And I put it down to the mental state of the players against Spain, who were so well organized and they do their stuff so well. In your point about the twenty year generational cookie cutters, they've got players coming in, wingers, they've got sixers, they've got eights, they got everything the system is doing. Like I said on the program the other day, I think that the country that's come closest to splitting the atom that is football. I thought this game would be one on the margins of athleticism where France had that ability because their athletes can also play. But their athletes didn't play at least they has been uncontainable for six games and then you get to this match. You can't pass the football. I put that down to preparation. Whatever the coach has done or not done. In the end, he's responsible for preparing his team, and I convinced they weren't ready to play, not in the way they needed to.
00:32:52
Speaker 2: I do wonder is it as basic as France have actually run into the one team that is better than them, and they just happened to be them in the semifinal rather than the final. I suppose even at the eighty minute mark, where they hadn't played well, they're two nil down, they hadn't barely created a chance to actually score. I was thinking, well at this stage of the twenty twenty two World Cup final and Bape just flipped the switch and France at least got the game to extratirement. You can never really write them off for that reason, with the individual talents that they have. So Thomas Harps has made the point that it might have been mental. I mean, with Deschamp leaving after the third place playoff and Zadan coming in does a new voice, does someone with his gravitas of winning the Champions League so many times as Real Madrid manager and his playing career before that? Is that the hump they need to get over Spain? Or I mean, because it's now three defeats in three years at the same time of the year, is it as simple as Spanish just the one team that Franz can't beat, and had someone else done the favor of knocking them out, Franz might have won the World Cup after all.
00:33:54
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know it's you know, we've got to look at a Spanish side.
00:33:58
Speaker 3: Is thing for me.
00:34:00
Speaker 4: If they win this World Cup, this team will go down as arguably one of the best in history. You know, we're talking about a team that haven't lost in thirty thirty six games.
00:34:12
Speaker 5: You know that that is an unreal record.
00:34:15
Speaker 4: You know, they've you know, they're just marginally the you know, the Nation's league. They lost it in penalty shootout, but other than that, you know, they've been flawless.
00:34:24
Speaker 5: And I think you just saw what the difference was.
00:34:27
Speaker 4: You saw, you know, the team element of it.
00:34:33
Speaker 5: France has something that they can add. They have by father.
00:34:37
Speaker 4: You know, looking at these two squads individual talent, I think they're trump every team. But you know that that would be the job for cyny in Sidan.
00:34:47
Speaker 5: He's got the horror.
00:34:47
Speaker 4: He's managed big players at Real Madrid, obviously, but I think that's where France needs to take this the next step and to beat to beat Spain, because Spain is the team to beat.
00:34:59
Speaker 5: It's not Argentina. It's been for me.
00:35:01
Speaker 4: So you know that that's going to be a big task because that's the only thing he'll be judged off, He'll be judged on, you know, beating beating the best teams.
00:35:11
Speaker 3: I think that's a really that that's a really good point, Thomas, because even those and Taylor brought up the five nil lead that Spain took only to win the game five to four a couple of tournaments ago, and at too nil, I'm thinking, well, they don't have as big amountain to climb, and that they could do it this time. And at eighty minutes, where they're spreading the ball, they're around the Spain penalty are and they're getting some one on one situations attacker on defender, And at this point I want to join this back to my mentality thing, which to me stood out in the very first moments of the game, when great players and miscontrolling the pass. Then you get to that now to the end when when they've got the ball, they're putting pressure on they've got players wide situations one v one, And this is where it's mental for me. This is what it looks like to me anyway, That's how I come up with this thesis. Every other game, every other opponent, those one on one situations Barkla or Damble or due squares up, the defender takes him on down the line, gets to the ball and cuts it back eight times out of ten, nine times out of ten, someone's got to tap it in or score or whatever. On each and every occasion. Almost against Spain, same scenario against Kouka on one side, and I can't remember the right full backs name, but you get the point. Pedra Pora of course the match winner. No great players, but almost on every occasion, the not past the defender is too heavy, it goes out for a goal kick, same attacker, same scenario, same football opportunity. Against Spain, they crumble, their touch goes This is the deeper inquiry from the French Football Federation because it's a mental thing with Spain and Taoe. I think you're right. If someone else had done the business on Spain, I can't see anyone stopping.
00:37:03
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the Spanish because they've only conceded the one goal. It was against Belgium. They've only really obliterated one team, which was the Saudis. Amazingly, Lemin Yamahal scored in the Saudi game, hasn't scored in any of the other games, hasn't necessarily reached his best. Nico Williams has been a bit of a cameo sub at best. He's barely played any minutes, barely sixty combined minutes for the tournament, and they were Yamal and Nico Williams were two of their best players as they won the Euros only two years ago. What is it about Spain that means that even with their biggest guns or their most dynamic risk reward players not firing, that they have this stability, this ability to control games, Thomas, They've only conceded the one goal. What do you put it down to? Is it as simple as the fa the management, the program? Is that just this generation of talent. Are there other things you see which leads to just such control over not just individual games but an entire tournament.
00:38:05
Speaker 4: I think a lot of it also comes down to, you know, the upbringing. I think you know, you're looking at all the players, you know a lot of them are quite similar. You look at Danny Olmo, Fabian Ruez, by Aina, Michael Marino, you know, like in some way I can't really distinguish them, but they're all incredibly skilled.
00:38:24
Speaker 5: Incredibly calm on the ball.
00:38:26
Speaker 4: Tactically they do something in Spain that seems to just be, you know, sitting on the spine. Every player they bring in, you know, has this incredible intellectual understanding of the game. They read it so well. And yes, you know, it's frightening that La Mina mel has only probably played at seventy percent because you would expect, you know, for him, like we've seen with all the other top players, that you have to shine at the World Cup and now me saying this, he'll probably scored two in the final. But you know, it's it's it's it's a proper team performance. And back to what you said, Harps, I think you look at Poro and Cookware like they're not known for their defensive strength, like they're they're always maybe criticized for that.
00:39:14
Speaker 5: They're they're they're sort of odd, but they're they're good going forward.
00:39:17
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's it's such a well oided machine the Spanish side.
00:39:23
Speaker 3: It has to be systemic too. Tom Thomas is right, you know, Yeah, players drop out, other players come in and they've got cookie cutters for everything and they've done an incredible job. Hence hence my proposition that they've come as closed and you know, they haven't generated the romance of the Brazilian teams in the sixties and seventies into the eight There's no jogo bonito about this. Maybe you're a little bit dissensitized to this because the globalization of soccer has enabled us to watch you know, the Barcelona, the Milans, the Ticke attackers. We've all sort of grown up with these expectations. So no one's jumping out of South America like Tosstown and Palo. I haven't seen these before. These guys are brilliant, so that sort of changes the discussion, but quite clearly, and I put Portugal in a similar category. Tom's I'm not sure if you'd agree with this, but that Iberian peninsula, they just produce a formula and everyone gets it. Everyone knows what's expected, they know what it's incredible. It's incredible. So we sort of teased the other night Theayo's. Tayo suggested that Spain were going to come out like a coiled snake and just strike, and I sort of relented. But they don't do that. They just squeeze the game out of all its life. You know, they don't have a thousand chances, they don't give up a thousand chances, but they squeeze the life out of opponents, and France they had the life squeezed out of them before kickoff.
00:40:39
Speaker 1: I think you've you said your stocks were down.
00:40:41
Speaker 2: As a pundit, Hulfs the poet constrictor analogy was perfect for this game.
00:40:44
Speaker 1: I think you got it spot on. Now, just a quick look ahead the third place playoff.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Neither team ever wants to play this game should have countter, what's the Golden Boot? And Bapo's got eight messis now ahead of him on the tie break for assists to three. But if Dude Bellingham or Harry Kane scores a hat trick in the third place playoff or den Bela scores for do they really deserve to win the Golden Boot? Or should the third place? I know Croati fans worn't like this because Devil Suka won the Golden Boot in nineteen ninety eight by scoring in the third place playoff.
00:41:12
Speaker 1: But should it count towards the Golden Boot?
00:41:14
Speaker 4: Tommy, Yeah, no, it's it's it's within the same tournament. So yeah, for for me, that's okay, Like I'm more in the camp I should we scrap that third place playoff? Altogether, it's just a meaningful games, a meaningless game.
00:41:30
Speaker 2: We've got the world we've got the World Cup, and then we've got the Who Cares Cup and we play the.
00:41:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, first one.
00:41:34
Speaker 4: It's not a game I can get excited. And you know, we don't know what teams are. They're gonna you know, they're gonna field. There will be some some obviously bench players that's going to get a shot.
00:41:44
Speaker 5: And for these two teams.
00:41:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe if like, let's say, for my point of view, if Denmark was you know, I would love Denmark to get a bronze medal, but I don't think France or England I do care anything about a bronze medal.
00:41:56
Speaker 2: That's a good point though, because if Norway had made it passed into the cell, they would be playing hard in the third place playoff. Perhaps let's look ahead to Monday's final, just quick reactionary thoughts on what is going to be a spectacle build In similar fashion, twenty twenty two has set the bar so ridiculously high. Is it possible that Spain and Argentina could match that spectacle? Given that traditionally most football finals, domestic leagues, Champions League, World Cup finals, they are classic Cagy games decided by occasional moments. They are not all timers like the one we got in twenty twenty two in Qatar.
00:42:37
Speaker 3: No, it's good. It'll be appealing for its own reasons. The messy thing, I mean, can he can he deliver? Can he become the undisputed champion, champion of the history of football with back to back World Cups. I mean that's a discussion for another day. I think there's a lot of threads around this. It'll tight really nicely. I'm not expecting a shootout. I mean, Spain unless France don't get into shootouts. But they're almost going to be unbackckable favorites Thomas Spain. But that there's some this this Argentina find a way. They find a way, And I don't know if there's anything in the colony versus the former colonial master. I know they speak Spanish, but Argentinians are basically Italian immigrants. Are they living in a French design cities to speaking Spanish? Look, I'm not I'm not getting a bit off track. There is this a thing for them. I don't know, it's going to be a hell of a game. I think Spain are going to win it. But my tipping through this tournament has been so bad. Thankfully ve only got one more game to put my head on the block.
00:43:36
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I'm so.
00:43:38
Speaker 4: I'm so intrigued about, Like, we know what Spain's approach is going to be, but I can't wait to see what Argentina do.
00:43:45
Speaker 5: Do they actually you know, do they.
00:43:47
Speaker 4: Come out and stick it, you know, you know, try to intimidate, be physical. I'm sure they will, and you know, can they get under the skin of these Spanish players, you know, because they certainly got under the skin of the English and a few of the other teams. So you know it's gonna He's so fascinating, and yeah, I think it's going to be a great final.
00:44:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you.
00:44:10
Speaker 4: I don't think he'll be a five to four or something like that, but you know, we'll we'll see some.
00:44:14
Speaker 5: Great individual brilliance.
00:44:15
Speaker 4: We'll see some you know, some superb football, I'm sure and yeah, yeah, yeah, you.
00:44:22
Speaker 5: Can't count out. I haven't seen. I think I think.
00:44:24
Speaker 3: We've learned that up to this point, Thomas, do we know I'll sort of put this on the last show. Do we know enough about Spain's goalkeeper in a big moment because we've seen Martinez he's had to do his thing and Spain haven't had to really be troubled yet.
00:44:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, but like I would still say in this tournament, I don't think Martinez is instill like too much confidence. I don't think he's been particularly great, but he has shown in big moments that he you know, he steps up, you know he he obviously saved some penalties when they won the copper like the South American Championship, and obviously last time at the World Championship he was great. Then you know that save he made in the final, so you know what, they could play a big part. And you know, somem On you know again, he's a he's a European champion, you know what, He's been there in some stage.
00:45:17
Speaker 3: In some senses, Thomas I could keep going in the Spanish team because.
00:45:22
Speaker 4: You sort of no harps, no harps, you couldn't.
00:45:28
Speaker 5: No, no, he couldn't.
00:45:32
Speaker 1: Work on the passport halfs. Then then maybe we can revisit all right.
00:45:37
Speaker 2: I do think Spain would have encounted for England comfortably, but Argentina are disruptors and I do think they will as Thomas flagged have the the edge, physicality, intimidation, zero fear factor for Messi having played so much of his career in La Liga, zero unknowns. So I think Argentina can do it if I can just get.
00:45:58
Speaker 1: A tip to finish.
00:45:59
Speaker 2: Gentlemen, before we wrap this episode, Thomas lead us off who will win Monday's final?
00:46:05
Speaker 4: You know it's got to be a titus for a fair but I'm actually going to stick my neck out and say that Argentina's going to win two one.
00:46:13
Speaker 1: Halps. The final say is yours.
00:46:16
Speaker 3: So that's two next going out, which means double the Goose impact I'm going for as well.
00:46:21
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, so I don't believe that.
00:46:24
Speaker 3: I don't believe it. I haven't got a tip right in one hundred and twenty games. Why am I going to start now?
00:46:29
Speaker 1: Well? Hey, yeah, save it for the big one.
00:46:32
Speaker 2: Everyone's going to perhaps judge this tournament on how it ends, if it ends in a in a really strong fashion or in a sour note, but we'll find all of that out. Make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and also to the talkSPORT Australia YouTube channel.
00:46:45
Speaker 1: Leave the comments there.
00:46:46
Speaker 2: We've loved them coming in and give us your thoughts on who will win the World Cup Final and why.
00:46:51
Speaker 1: Thomas Sorenson, thanks for joining.
00:46:52
Speaker 5: Us, Hi, it's for pleasure.
00:46:55
Speaker 2: And Andy Harper, do you have tickets for the final? Are you going to be in New.
00:46:59
Speaker 3: J i'ill be in New York City on the night of the final, flying out the next day, but not going to the game.
00:47:06
Speaker 1: Enjoy the experience.
00:47:07
Speaker 3: Three hundred dollars train tickets sort of turned me off.
00:47:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I.
00:47:12
Speaker 5: Thought you were going to say three hundred dollars ticket for the game. I'm not paying that.
00:47:17
Speaker 3: I'll have ten.
00:47:20
Speaker 2: Sensational stuff fellas. Thank you for the deep diving too both semifinals today. I'm Teo Pelasera, your host. Thanks for your company on talkSPORT World Cup Shootout. We will speak to you soon.
