Throwback: The Juan Diego Code!

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And now, on with the show.
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You must excuse me.
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I've grown quite clear at.
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This hasn't been easy, I know.
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But you've learned a lesson.
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A lesson in honesty.
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Honesty to yourself and honesty to others.
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That lesson will stand you in good step on your life.
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I think we've all learned a good lesson.
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I've always heard that honesty is the best policy.
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Now I'm catching on to why that's so, and why that's so, why that's so, why that's so, why that's so, why that's so.
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Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Ostlantis, where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history and archaeology, and we help combat the spread of disinformation about these very topics.
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We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyawa.
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And Ruben Ariano Tlakatecat.
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How are you, Dr.
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Tlatecat in these most horrendous of times?
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Yeah.
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I mean, considering this uh weekend, um I was uh on a panel, actually.
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That's right.
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That's right.
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And uh it was a panel that consisted of myself, uh a historian who just recently um retired not that long ago from a local university and the local local Chicano author.
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And so the organizers of this event uh is two separate organizations.
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I'm not gonna name them.
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Um but um they're basically doing uh grassroots organizing here in in the Dallas area.
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One of them is documenting um what's going on with the with the ICE rest.
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They go to the the um the courts and and they're you know uh I'm sure you've seen some of these videos around that people have done around the country of people going to where uh people show up for their appointments or where when they're being taken after being uh arrested and and held in these various uh concentration camps and then they go before the judge, and so these people go out there and they document just to kind of uh um try to add a a layer of of not just documentation but of maybe safety in in some way, right?
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You know, just to make sure that people are being recorded.
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Uh because a lot of people have been gone, they have been lost, you know, they've been they've been transferred, and they've been, you know, especially for instance, uh the the the big the big one that that a lot of people m might know about is that so-called alligator Alcatraz in in Florida, where uh the story uh last I checked was that a lot of those people are unaccounted for.
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They were transferred out of that facility, and uh no one really knows where they are.
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Um isn't it like uh over a thousand people?
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Something like that.
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And so one of the local organizations is kind of doing that work, and the other one uh is an organization that is uh trying to be uh um an organization that's that's uh promoting information uh to the community, uh you know, best uh best ways for the for the ki for people in the community to protect themselves, to organize, to to resist what's going on.
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And so they had us on to kind of speak a little bit on the Chicano movement and the things that people were doing at that time so that uh people today, the uh local uh organizations and just community members at large can get a sense of some of the things that that are uh they have at their disposal that they have within themselves to empower themselves as individuals and as groups.
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And so we talked a little bit about the history and then also on ways that um you know groups and and community members can organize and safeguard themselves too, because one of the things that I stressed in in uh in a couple of my responses to to the questions that they had for us was that you know it is well known that the government will send people to infiltrate organizations to try to dismantle and disrupt what they're doing from within.
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Uh this is true, this this happened in the 70s to, you know, people in the the Black Power Movement and the American Indian Movement and also in the Chicano movement, right?
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Like this is well documented.
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And so uh, you know, one of the things that I've told folks is um just to make sure that whatever you do is that you're doing it in uh as a consensus as a group, that everyone is in agreement that the things that you're doing is something that you all want to do.
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And don't let one voice kind of overpower the rest.
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And if there's some voice that's coming in, an individual that's coming in and trying to provoke the group or incite the group to do things that they might not feel comfortable doing or not want to do, to be kind of wary of that individual because chances are that they could be, you know, someone who's trying to infiltrate the group to get them to indict themselves.
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Yeah, exactly exactly.
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So that was that was fun.
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Um and uh I think that you know this is something that they've been doing since uh April.
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Um they've been doing these these panels, and I think this one was like the third or fourth one, and they're gonna be doing more.
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And so they said they might call me out again for another panel.
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And so we'll see.
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We'll see where this goes.
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Well, that's awesome.
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Yeah.
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I uh I too had something cool go on.
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I um a few weeks ago I gave a talk at Bow and Arrow Brewing, which is like the only in female indigenous-owned brewery in the country.
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And uh I gave a talk on Mesoamerican fermentation and pulque.
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So we had a great turnout and uh wasn't wasn't as heavy as your talk, I'm sure.
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My talk was pretty lighthearted.
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But um yeah, it was nice.
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It's cool that we're getting out there and just uh into the community giving talks.
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Yeah, and I do want to sh uh give a shout out to a couple of people who were at the event who afterwards came up and and told me that they listened to the podcast and they're fans of the show.
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And so I want to give a shout-out to the Really Cool.
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Yeah.
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So thanks, thanks for coming out, thanks for the support.
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And uh you know, just uh keep doing what you're doing, you know?
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Keep keep resisting.
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Absolutely.
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It it reminds me of this um I was watching a talk given by uh a member of Union del Barrio about these things about getting together and um how to properly document exactly what you're talking about, right?
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These these arrests that are happening when people are going in to check on their immigration status or at protests and stuff.
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And the the speaker from Union del Barrio got up and he said, you know, there's so many people in this room right now that I have to assume that some of you are at least a couple of you here are here with bad intentions.
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Yeah.
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And uh I just want to start off by saying, fuck you.
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Nice.
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So I thought that was pretty cool.
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Yeah, I kind of have to measure what I say, even though there's times when I want to say that, but because I'm an educator and uh there's a lot of eyes out there watching what we do, uh, as you know.
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Uh a lot of educators have lost their jobs over recent events and the things that they say in public and on social media.
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And so I'm trying to um uh you know, not not that I'm a f uh I'm trying to censor myself, but I'm also mindful of of these things, right?
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So I Yeah, you gotta watch your back, man.
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Watch your back and know what to say intentions.
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Ne know when to when to say the things that need to be said and and and say them in such a way where, you know, there's plausible deniability, right?
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Like I was just being historical, right?
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Yeah.
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I was just stating facts.
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This is what happened in the past, and if there's an analogy to the present, well, you know, that's that's history.
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History tends to rhyme.
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Yeah, that's what I like to say.
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Exactly.
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Yep.
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So speaking of history, right?
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Uh I wrote up this script as part of our sort of continuing series on La Vivienda Guadalupe and the uh controversies and tidbits surrounding the uh the the creation of this image.
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And I don't know if this is like the third or fourth episode in the series, but uh it's something that I like to return to every now and then because there's a lot of work to be done there, a lot of interesting uh you know, things to g to pages to turn, interesting uh little tidbits of of history that that are worth looking into.
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And for today's episode, I've decided to call it the Juan Diego Code.
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During a nineteen ninety visit to Mexico, Pope John Paul II confirmed the long-standing liturgical cult in honor of Juan Diego, officially beatifying him.
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Did I say that word right?
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Beatifying?
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It's one of those words.
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This act set in motion the process of canonizing Juan Diego as the first saint indigenous to the Americas.
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The Juan Diego faithful were, of course, elated at the prospect.
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They only had to deal with one tiny problem.
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Juan Diego never existed.
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Now, for those unfamiliar with the myth of Juan Diego and his infamous Dilma, I highly recommend that you pause this episode right now and go check out episodes 27 and 28 of this podcast, where we delve into the historical events surrounding the creation of the Mexican Virgin of Guadalupe in detail.
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And if you are more of a reader, I will include a link to my medium blog where I detail the same events.
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But if you don't have time for any of that, and I totally get it, uh for the sake of context, here is the quick cliff notes version taken from the Wikipedia page on Juan Diego.
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I should also say a wise man once said that how can you have time if you don't take time?
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So you have to take time to have the time.
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Exactly.
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Juan Diego Quatlatzin, also known simply as Juan Diego, was a Nahua peasant and Marian visionary.
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He is said to have been granted apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe on four occasions in December of 1531.
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Three at the hill of Tepeac, and the fourth before Don Juan de Sumarga, then the first bishop of Mexico.
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The Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe, located at the foot of Tepeac, houses the cloak or the Tilmatli that is traditionally said to be Juan Diego's, and upon which the image of the Virgin is said to have been miraculously impressed as proof of the authenticity of the apparitions.
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Juan Diego's visions and the imparting of the miraculous image, as recounted in oral and written colonial sources such as the Waitlama Soltica, are together known as the Guadalupe Event, or Spanish for El Acotin Acontecimiento Guadalupe, and are the basis of the veneration of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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This veneration is ubiquitous in Mexico, prevalent throughout the Spanish speaking Americas and increasingly widespread beyond.
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As a result, the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe is now one of the world's major Christian pilgrimage destinations, receiving twenty-two million visitors in 2010.
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So wow, 2010, what it was you think it's uh increased since 2010 or uh I would I would say it probably took a dive in like during COVID.
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Maybe it's probably back up around those numbers.
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But it's it's probably still hovering around that same number, right?
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22.
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I would think so.
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Have you ever been there?
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To the Basilica?
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No, not personally.
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I went there once.
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Um when I was living in Mexico City, I went there and I picked up a uh a rosary for my grandma, and it's made out of um roses, like the beads are like compressed roses.
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Uh-huh.
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So I thought that was pretty cool.
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I appreciated it.
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The effort to canonize Juan Diego hit a major roadblock when Guillermo Schulenberg, the former abbot of the Basilica in Mexico City, gave an interview in the winter issue of the Catholic Catholic journal Ixtus, in which he warned Pope John Paul II not to canonize Juan Diego.
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Don't do it.
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In his interview, Schulenberg argued that Juan Diego had never existed except as a tool to convert the indigenous people, and that by making this fictional individual a saint, the church risked long-lasting embarrassment.
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Schulenberg stated If the Pope should canonize Juan Diego, then it would be the most serious because in that case, theologians would have to study whether the Pope can or cannot be in error in canonization.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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It kind of presents a problem if you're trying to canonize somebody that never existed.
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Trevor Burrus, Jr.
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Well, the whole thing's a problem, but hey, what I think Exactly.
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For obvious reasons, this interview sent shockwaves across the Mexican nation.
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And Schulenberg was forced to resign his position in July of 1996.
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I'm so glad everything's changed where you can't be fired for um you can't be canceled or fired for having an opinion in public.
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Yeah.
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We're in such a different world.
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Right.
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But the damage had been done, and this interview led to even more public inquiries into both the historicity of Juan Diego and the authenticity of the quote unquote miraculous Tilma.
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In the June 1st, 2002 edition of the Plainview Herald, microbiologist Leoncio A.
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Garza Valdez, who had analyzed the Tilma in 1999, spoke out against the canonization of Juan Diego.
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We'll be back after a quick break.
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Okay, so let's say you've got the Mexica calendar for the upcoming year, Se Tochli, and you want to know a little bit more about the philosophy and worldview associated with the ancestral calendar system.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:07.519
Or maybe you're curious about the individual feasts that are held in connection with each of the months.
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:16.000
Well, dear listeners, I've got you covered because my new book, Never Will It Be Lost, is now available.
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It features beautiful cover art provided by the amazing artist Mikorazon Mexica, and it's packed with full color images from the Codices.
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In it, I go over each of the monthly feasts and I provide some guidance and suggestions on how these feasts can be celebrated today.
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I also go into the Mexica worldview, cosmovision, and philosophy, and I talk about how we, as modern-day Mesoamerican descendants, can connect with and actualize this philosophy in the modern world.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:56.480
I'm super proud of this book.
00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:06.559
Again, it's called Never Will It Be Lost: Ritual, Remembrance, and the Aztec Calendar by yours truly, Curly Tlapoyawa.
00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:12.640
And if you order it using the link in the show notes, you get five dollars off.
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So if you want to support independent indigenous Chicano media, please consider picking it up.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.440
Tlaskamati Timoitase.
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The cloak of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not one painting but three paintings, and one is signed and dated.
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So this is not a miraculous image.
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It was created by man, Garza Valdez was quoted in saying in Sunday's edition of the San Antonio Express News.
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Garza Valdez, whose conclusions were published last week in the Mexican magazine Proceso, believes the image of the Virgin is not of supernatural origin and that Juan Diego is a creation of 17th century church writings.
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We want to stop the canonization of Juan Diego, Garza Valdez said.
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The church is making a boo-boo.
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Did he say boo-boo?
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You're making a boo boo.
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You're making a boo.
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I'm a Catholic and a Guadalupano boo-boo, but I am not an apparitionist, and I do not believe in Juan Diego.
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Wow.
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That's Yeah, and what's interesting is back then I actually reas uh I reached out to him.
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I reached out to uh Garcia Valez, and we spoke for a while.
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Um and he agreed to be interviewed by me on video, and then I lost my job, and the email I was using was my work email.
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So that was a big mistake.
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Um so I I got shut out of all of that and I lost contact with him, which is kind of a bummer.
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So you didn't have it written down somewhere else?
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Oh.
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This was a long this was like 1999, 2000.
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Yeah.
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So I wasn't really thinking ahead like that.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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Things were not looking good for old Diego.
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But in the middle of all the chaos, when the myth was quickly unraveling, something miraculous happened.
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In August of nineteen ninety five, Father Javier Escalada, a Spanish Jesuit residing in Mexico, announced that he held in his possession a document now recognized as Codex fifteen forty eight, also known as the Codex Escalada in his honor.
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He claimed that the document had been found in a private library, whose owner wished to remain completely anonymous.
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This does not sound fishy at all.
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If confirmed is authentic, the document would be of extreme importance to the cause of getting sainthood for Juan Diego.
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Escalada declared.
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There is no document as old nor as clear for proving the historicity of Guadalupe as this codex which we have called 1548.
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We have given the codex to experts to be examined, and they have all agreed in indicating that it is authentic.
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Well, that's pretty conclusive.
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I mean, if you're right.
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That's solid.
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He did not specify, however, who those experts were.
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Critics highlighted several anachronisms in the alleged codex, particularly within the Nawat text.
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Moreover, there was no trace of the document's existence prior to nineteen ninety five.
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It seemingly emerged out of nowhere, and it appeared almost too good to be true.
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These concerns were amplified by the timing.
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Father Escalada was on the verge of releasing his Encyclopedia Guadalupe, which was published just two months after the Codex's debut in October.
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Coincidence?
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Coincidence?
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Known today as the Codex 1548 or the Codex Escalada, this document became a pivotal piece of evidence in the canonization of Juan Diego, despite persistent doubts regarding its authenticity.
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Later, in an appendix to his Encyclopedia Guadalupe, Escalada went into more detail about the scientific examination of the Codex.
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The document itself is not a codex as we usually think of one, but rather a single sheet of parchment prepared from what is probably deer skin and measuring approximately thirteen to By twenty centimeters, which is tiny.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:04.799
It's like five by eight inches.
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Right.
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It is badly weathered and wrinkled with a yellowish patina, so that photographs or reproductions of it in newspapers and books are almost totally indecipherable.
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At the top, the date 1548 is written in hyphenated form.
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154-8.
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Which is weird.
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It is weird.
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:40.079
The illustration portrays two of the alleged Guadalupe apparitions, one of the fourth apparition at the base of the hill, and another of the first apparition at its summit.
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:55.680
In one corner it features the glyph of Judge Antonio Valeriano, the purported author of the Nikan Mopoa, along with the signature of Bernardino de Sagun, famed for his authorship of the Florentine Codex.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:04.799
Additionally, two inscriptions in Nahuat appear, which were later transcribed by the renowned Nahuat scholar Rafael Tena.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:12.480
Both inscriptions exhibit unconventional spelling along with visible erasures and corrections.
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:20.400
According to Escalada's later account, in may 1995, a group of experts gathered to evaluate the codex.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:43.359
This included Mario Sanchez, a Nahuat expert who had published his own translation of the Nikan Mopoa, the historian Salvador Sotomayor, Ana Rita Valgarcia Lascurian, I think I'm saying that right, who was associated with the Basilica Archives, Chemical Engineer Manuel Betancourt, and Father Escalada.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:49.279
It was decided that various specialized agencies and persons would be consulted.
00:23:49.519 --> 00:24:03.200
These were El Taller, a Center for Restoration of Antiquities, the Centro de Estudios Guadalupe, it seems kind of handpicked, and specialists in the study of codexes, codices, Dr.
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:03.839
Victor M.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:08.640
Castagno, Miguel Leon Portilla, Doctora Josefina Muriel, Dr.
00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:11.839
Guy Stresser Pean, Rafael Tena, and Dr.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.440
Mark Tuveno.
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:16.640
Manport's everywhere in this stuff, isn't he?
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:18.079
Yeah, he's all over the place.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:19.440
He's all over the place.
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:24.079
The first point to be investigated was the signature of Sagun.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:35.680
Charles Dibble, professor emeritus of the University of Utah at Salt Lake City and a noted authority on Sagun was asked to verify the signature.
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:40.480
In a letter of june twenty third, nineteen ninety six, he wrote.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:55.759
I base my conclusion on the indication of three crosses, the form of the Fre, the DE as in the and the B.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:05.039
He added, however, in my opinion, the signature is not the same as that it is not contemporaneous with the 1548 date of the Codice.
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.519
I would assign the signature to the 50s or the 60s.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:10.559
Interesting.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.799
Is he s I'm not sure what he's saying here.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:33.119
I mean he's saying he confirms that the signature is on par with something that Bernardo the Fra the Sagun would have signed, but then he says the dating is wrong, so then Yeah, he's saying that yeah, it looks it it appears to be Sagun's signature, but he does not believe that it's it's from 1548.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:33.839
Yeah.
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.559
So that cuts down into the Yeah.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.960
It's a little monkey in the wrench.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:39.839
Right, right.
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.079
Okay.
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:55.279
The codex was transferred to the Instituto de Física at the National Autonomous University of Mexico, or the UNAM, and the restoration team at the Musea the Museo de Churusco for detailed scientific analysis.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:26:06.400
On january thirtieth, nineteen ninety-six, the Instituto unveiled its research plan, which involved capturing various photographs and conducting X-ray studies.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:14.480
The analysis revealed that the inks were not synthetic but derived from natural sources such as animals, plants, or minerals.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:21.279
These materials and techniques were consistent with those commonly used in sixteenth century Mexico.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:29.680
Based on their findings, the researchers concluded there was no indication the document was created after that period.
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:37.200
Ultimately, the evidence was considered sufficient enough to affirm the document's authenticity.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:49.119
Now, it is important to remember that nearly all the inspections were performed by people who had been specifically chosen by Escalada and his associates.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:52.640
Basically, it was stacked with Guadalupanos.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:04.319
And as we shall see, Escalada himself greatly hindered the examination process by imposing severe restrictions on the examinations.
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:10.240
The alleged codex has never been subject to a truly open investigation.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:19.200
For all intents and purposes, the outcome of this quote unquote investigation had been largely predetermined.
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:39.279
In his excellent book Our Lady of Guadalupe, the origin and sources of a Mexican National Symbol fifteen thirty one to seventeen ninety seven, the author Stafford Poole notes the following Until nineteen ninety five, the existence of the codex had not even been suspected.
00:27:39.599 --> 00:28:26.480
It is not mentioned in any survey of catalogue of Guadalupano documents such as the Catalogo del Museo Indiano of Borturini Benaducci, nor by other authors such as Besserra Tanco, Francisco de Florentia, Siguencia Iongra, or Baristain de Susa, that a document of such surpassing importance should have remained unknown until the late twentieth century strange credulity, that its existence was publicized only two months before the publication of the Encyclopedia Guadalupe, and at a time when the campaign to canonize Juan Diego was underway places it in the category of quote too good to be true.
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:42.559
In 1995, nothing was known about the provenance of the document, other than that it was discovered among some papers in a private library, and that its owners did not realize its value and that they wished to remain anonymous.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:52.400
As a result, it was impossible to learn anything about its history or the nature and date of the papers among which it was found.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:29:02.720
In contrast with this scientific evidence is the fact that the codex remains numerous anachronisms and inconsistencies.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:13.599
The date fifteen forty eight at the top of the codex is not in a sixteenth century hand and is written in an ink different from that of the rest of the document.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:23.599
The signature of Antonio Valeriano is preceded by the word Hues, a position that he did not receive until 1573.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:32.480
The Nahuatl glyph for his name that precedes the signature is taken from the Codex Albin in the Biblioteque National de France.
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:43.440
Sargon is not known to have signed native codices, and the presence of his signature is inconsistent with his known opposition to Guadalupe.
00:29:43.920 --> 00:30:02.240
The picture appears to be a copy of the frontispiece of Luis de Veserratanco's Felicidad de Mexico republished in Seville in 1685, the only depiction of Guadalupe prior to the nineteenth century that shows the image without a crown.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:12.720
Juan Diego's supposed native name, which was never used in any Nahuatl document, would more likely have been spelled Quatlactuatin.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:20.079
In 1548, the glottal stop in the name represented by a C would probably not have been written.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:36.400
Finally, the phrase quote Zano Ipan Shiwi, likewise in that year that begins the statement of Juan Diego's death was a standard usage in Nahuat chronicles for beginning and entry under a particular year.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:42.640
In other words, the sentence had been taken out of context from one of the indigenous chronicles.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:50.079
Well, so he's he's really um poking a lot of holes in this in this this this codex.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:51.920
Yeah, Stafford pulls the man.
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.480
And as a side note, if you have not read this book, I really encourage you to do so.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.079
I will place a link where you can purchase it in the show notes.
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.160
It's a he goes deep in this book.
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.079
He he does a really thorough uh investigation.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:15.519
In May 2002, Escalada finally broke his silence about the document's provenance in an article in the newspaper Reforma.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:30.640
According to his account, Antonio Vera Olvera, a proud Guadalupano from Queretaro who died in 1994, was in the habit of visiting the Sunday market at La Lagunia to look for rare books.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:37.519
In nineteen sixty eight, he purchased a book on the Tilma and found the Codice inserted in it.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:46.799
His family eventually decided to donate it to Archbishop Norberto Rivera Carrera on condition that it never be sold.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.960
On the same day that the donation was made known, Victor M.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:32:00.000
Castagno, the physicist who directed the examination of the material and inks of the codex, gave a different interpretation of the results.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:11.200
According to him, the conditions imposed by Father Escalada, namely that the codex not be damaged in any way, hindered a thorough investigation.
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.559
We were very limited.
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:19.920
It was like playing soccer with your legs tied and your eyes bandaged.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:26.720
The studies that we did are not definitively conclusive or exact, only indications.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:34.880
Carbon fourteen dating was ruled out, both because it would have required the destruction of almost half the document.
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:47.680
For similar reasons, there was no analysis by thermoluminescence or neutron activation, both of which would have permitted a more definitive dating of the inks.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:33:01.200
The tests that were used were microscopic and photographic analyses with the use of different filters, ultraviolet light, X-rays, and the PIXE method of infrared rays.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:17.279
In his original report of january thirtieth, nineteen ninety-seven, Tanyo declared that there exists sufficient evidence to presume the authenticity of the Codice 1548 as a document created in the sixteenth century.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:28.480
In 2002, however, he added that his affirmation did not come from scientific certainty, but from clues or indications.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:40.880
But there is a long stretch from that to saying that it is authentic with the historical implications.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:41.920
No duh.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:42.799
Yeah.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:45.599
You think?
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:46.559
Yep.
00:33:47.119 --> 00:34:04.079
He added that the studies of the codex, which was presented by the postulators of Juan Diego's canonization as an irrefutable proof of his historicity, do not rule out the possibility that it may have been produced at a later period.
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.000
Um using ancient support material and with inks similar to those used in the sixteenth century.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:11.760
So what's he's equivocating here?
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.320
Like maybe you may I don't know.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:16.559
We could be the judge.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:18.559
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:24.719
The same article in Reforma carried opinions by two well-known scholars about the codex.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:38.159
Javier Noguez was quoted as saying: What strikes me is that a document whose contents are supposedly very important offers such a poor manufacturer without a uniform style.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:51.199
By that he meant that the document mingled realistic scenes of the apparitions with the representations that were traditional in codices, such as the glyph of Antonio Velariano.
00:34:51.440 --> 00:35:04.400
He pointed out that the picture of the apparitions was copied from an engraving published in 1669 in a pamphlet by Antonio Castro called Poeticum Veridarium.
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.599
Sounds like a Harry Potter spell.
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:10.000
Poeticum Veridarium.
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:18.639
Esquelada has said that it is the opposite, that Castro saw this document in order to make his engraving.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:29.840
But if this had been the case, why didn't the artist mention such an important source document if there was already a concern to demonstrate the historicity of Juan Diego?
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.679
So it was like the chicken and the egg uh debugging, right?
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:35.039
Like which one came first?
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:36.880
Was it this one or was it that one?
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.280
Rafael Tena agreed.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:54.480
He pointed out that the quotations in Nahuat were taken from seventeenth century annals, and that the document could not date before fifteen seventy-three, the year in which Antonio Valeriano became a judge.
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:56.159
Then stated.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:02.239
I would say that it is false in the sense that it is not from the sixteenth century.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:16.719
I think that it is a private document that someone made for his personal use at the end of the nineteenth century or the beginning of the twentieth in order to provide an answer to the rationalistic objection raised against the apparitions.
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:25.360
I think he's uh the closest to uh to a accurate make a lot of sense.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:25.599
Yeah.
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:33.280
An element that particularly bothered specialists was the date one five four-eight.
00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:44.079
Father Ignacio Perez Alonso, director of the Jesuit Historical Archive, believed that the numbers did not correspond to those of the sixteenth century.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:47.920
The numerals are not from that period.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.679
The eight is not correct.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:51.360
Neither is the five.
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.960
The one is, and I have my doubts about the four.
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:57.920
So one out of four.
00:36:58.239 --> 00:36:59.280
One out of four numbers.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:01.760
This one isn't that one is, this one's not.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:02.559
Okay.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:12.320
Luis Avilablancas, director of the archive of Mexico City Cathedral, said flatly.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:14.800
The numerals are modern.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.039
That's more that's more to the point.
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:18.960
Concise and to the point.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:19.440
Yep.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:43.199
Despite growing concerns and corresponding evidence that demonstrated the non existence of Juan Diego, the Cardinals of the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints met on february twenty sixth, two thousand two and approved the canonization of Juan Diego, with july thirtieth in Mexico set as the official ceremony.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:38:05.199
Historian and priest Stafford Poole described the event as follows The canonization of Juan Diego reveals serious flaws in the process followed by the congregation for the causes of the saints and the non historical attitudes of those who were supposed to be studying a historical event.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:11.519
For one thing, the more the move to canonization was carried out with undue haste.
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:20.159
From the beginning the process was under the control of its sponsors and advocates, with the congregation playing a reactive role.
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:28.480
At no time were opponents of the process invited to join in the proceedings, nor were their opinions sought.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:33.519
None of the persons who led the cause were historians or had historical training.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:41.440
All the historians who were consulted by the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints were from Roman universities.
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:54.880
The consulters were willing to accept the most dubious evidence with special reliance on the Codex Escalada and incorrect dating and authorship for the Nikan Moboa.
00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:09.599
Finally, there is the fact that the 1982 report on the image which showed it to be a work of human hands that had not been miraculously preserved over the centuries was totally ignored.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:10.800
Shocking.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:12.079
Shocking.
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:16.000
The entire process was carried out in secrecy.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:18.400
Why such secrecy necessary?
00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:22.239
There seemed nothing in the process that warranted this.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:32.159
Those who opposed the process had no recourse but to send private letters to the Vatican, letters that they were rarely if ever acknowledged.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:45.360
It would seem that the natural and reasonable way to proceed in a matter of such delicacy would be to go gather the advocates of both sides in a forum in which each could present its case.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.960
After that, the congregation could make its decision.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:54.719
I myself urged this step on Rome, but nothing was ever done.
00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:11.920
The wider question is that of the church's attitude toward history and the freedom of historians to pursue their investigations without having to fear ecclesiastical intervention or personal attacks and re recriminations.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:20.800
Most historian must historians bow to the ordinary magisterium and not pursue studies that upset traditional devotions?
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:29.280
Are Wadalupe and Juan Diego salvific acts that are not subject to judgment by historical criteria?
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:31.119
That's such a good point.
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:35.199
Very astute and very prescient question, sir.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:35.760
Yeah.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:40.880
Again, if you haven't read his book, I highly recommend that you seek out Stafford Poole.
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:43.760
So no, Virginia.
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:49.039
Wonk Wonk.
00:40:49.760 --> 00:41:05.360
It's funny how these these studies get conducted and immediately they throw limitations on what you're allowed to do, and then they handpick the people that are going to study it.
00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:08.960
And it just seems like a foregone conclusion from the very start, right?
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.880
Like we need to show that he was real in order to canonize him.
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:20.639
And so we're just going to uh, you know, go in with that as as the foregone conclusion.
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:22.400
He was real, and here's why.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.000
We're just going to perform confirmation bias uh in an official capacity.
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:29.519
That's what it seems like to me.
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.559
This this idea has come up in a couple of episodes before, and I don't think we've ever addressed it.
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:45.599
And it just occurred to me as we were uh preparing for this episode is um then how do how is it that scholars who study Nahuatl, right?
00:41:45.840 --> 00:42:06.480
Because you know, I have an idea and and you probably know the answer, but for the general audience for for their sake, like how do scholars who are looking at the old codices and who study Nahuat, uh, and then they make these determinations that say, well, this document here couldn't have been done in the the date that it is purported to have been made because XYZ.
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:15.360
Like how do they determine, you know, that a phrase, for instance, right, was from a certain period, not from a different time period.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:22.800
Do you know how to explain that for the lay person that might not really understand what's going on in that dynamic there?
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:23.360
Yeah.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:35.199
I mean, I'm sure somebody like Magnus could give a way better uh answer than I'll give, but a lot of times it has to do with the um the way that words are written, right?
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.320
The uh orthography that's being utilized.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:43.599
Certain ways of writing certain words didn't come into being until later.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:56.239
And so you could you could date something by looking at the orthography and be like, okay, well, they weren't writing this way, or this turn of phrase hadn't existed prior to this date.
00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:11.519
Um so there's that way, and then there's context, right, of when you're looking at uh what's I'm trying to find a good example.
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:16.320
So like you have that the C with the little squiggly line underneath.
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:17.440
Do you know what I'm talking about?
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:30.079
So you have, you know, you can tell when certain words were written by the presence of certain symbols.
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:36.960
Like, well, they weren't using this symbol to represent this sound until this certain date.
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:56.079
So we know that if you've if you wrote words using these certain turns of phrase or with this orthography or with these symbols, but you're claiming that it came from 1540, but we know that nobody was writing like this until the 1700s, that's when that uh expertise comes into play.
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:58.960
And then there's also how words evolve.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.440
So Meanings of words.
00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:04.079
So here's here's an example.
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:05.760
It's this is a modern example.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:11.519
A lot of people will talk about the phrase uh qualitonale, right?
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.360
As being a direct translation of buenos días.
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:22.960
And so modern students of Nahuatl will like to say qualitonali to each other.
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:30.559
And then this creates this argument online of whether, you know, well, this is a borrowing from Spanish, right?
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.840
This is a direct translation of buenos días.
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:41.679
So is it authentic náhuatl to, you know, it's or could you make the claim that it's ancient náhuatl?
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:52.880
So somebody actually went into the Florentine Codex and found the phrase qualitonali, and they're trying to use that as an example of like, no, see, it is an ancient phrase.
00:44:53.519 --> 00:45:01.840
But when you look at the context in the Florentine Codex, it's describing here are the things that would make a good day.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:02.320
Right.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:03.199
So here we are.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:07.199
Exactly.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.559
This is the formula for having a great day today, for instance.
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:13.039
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:13.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.519
And I just happened to use the phrase qualitonali because it would make sense in that context.
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.239
Here's how you're gonna have a great day.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:29.280
But some people are using that to say, no, no, qualitonali is an ancient uh phrase, but you know, context matters.
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:38.800
We didn't really start saying qualitonali until the phrase buenos dias was introduced.
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:42.639
You know, in that way, um to to say good morning.
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:44.639
Aaron Ross Powell Same way with Nochan Tlacat.
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:53.119
I mean you can't find Nochan Tlacat in in the old documents because that's uh Chicano Nahuat word of saying Mahome.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:54.719
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:54.960 --> 00:46:01.519
And and then the the time that you when you do find it, it's in um where is she?
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.960
She was from Milpa Alta.
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:04.639
I I can't remember her name.
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.719
She was that famous woman, she was the uh the model for Diego Rivera.
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:19.679
Uh she wrote when she was a child in Milpa Alta that uh Zapata s said that, you know, Nochantlaca.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.119
No chantlaka, my people.
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.039
My people, my countrymen, right?
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:30.719
So his his his uh use of the word um is a little bit different than the way that we use it today, right?
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:31.199
Yeah.
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.880
And so and then the idea of and then the idea of my countrymen.
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:37.519
Right.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:38.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:39.599
Got it.
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:50.800
And so the idea of even like my countrymen in the in terms of like a nation state that wouldn't have existed um you know in in pre-Huatemo times, I don't think.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:00.800
But oh my I've searched for the word no chantlaka like all over the place, and I've only ever found it in that speech by Sabat.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:04.239
Cool.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:26.320
I think that's a very good um explanation for the for the audience who might not really understand what's going on with the different language debates about whether or not something is how do you know when it uh it's dated from a certain period and why it doesn't apply and how it disproves uh someone's argument about a certain document being made at a certain time.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.639
I think that's that's a pretty good explanation.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:29.280
Thank you.
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:30.559
Yeah.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:45.760
And I thought it would be fun to end this episode with a little bit of a short story because I call this episode the Juan Diego Code as sort of like a uh a nod and a wink?
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:49.679
A nod and a wink to the book uh the Da Vinci Code, right?
00:47:50.159 --> 00:48:04.800
And so I imagined, I liked to imagine what would a novel sound like if it dealt, if it was themed uh like the Da Vinci Code, but it was dealing with Juan Diego and La Virgin de Guadalupe.
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:17.840
So, dear listeners, indulge me, if you will, as I read you the opening paragraphs from the upcoming feature-length novel soon to be adapted into a film.
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:22.159
The Juan Diego Code.
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:30.000
The rain-slicked streets of Mexico City glistened under the glow of the cathedral's floodlights.
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:36.559
Midnight bells tolled, vibrating through the ancient stone, echoing in my ribs.
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:44.000
I tightened my coat around me, clutching the small leather satchel that contained the reason I could not sleep.
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:49.119
The reason I feared I might never sleep again.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:59.280
It was only two days ago, in the forgotten archives of a private Catholic collection, that I had found a painting that was not supposed to exist.
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:09.679
It had been hidden beneath the cracked canvas of Saint Francis, a decoy painting, so clumsy it reeked of desperation.
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:22.320
The true painting, early colonial brushwork, unmistakably from the hand of Baltasar de Achava Oreo, depicted a Nahua nobleman kneeling before the Virgin of Guadalupe.
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:24.639
But it was not Juan Diego.
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:29.199
There was no Dilma, no roses, no apparition.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:40.800
Instead, the Virgin stood beside the friar Juan de Zumaraga, the first bishop of Mexico, her figure painted with European precision.
00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:43.760
The implication was devastating.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:51.920
The official story that a humble Indian named Juan Diego was chosen as heaven's messenger was a fabrication.
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:58.400
A myth carefully engineered to consolidate Catholic power over a conquered people.
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:05.280
I stared at the Virgin's painted gaze for hours until the silence of the archive felt suffocating.
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.400
My discovery wasn't just art history.
00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:12.960
It was dynamite aimed at the foundations of faith.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.400
And someone knew I had it.
00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:20.880
That evening, a note was slipped under my hotel door.
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:25.599
No signature, just five words scrawled in Latin.
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:30.559
Veritas Vos liberabit civivis.
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:33.920
The truth will set you free.
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:36.000
If you live.
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:39.599
I wasn't supposed to understand, but I did.
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:51.280
I had spent years studying fragments of Catholic esoterica, the whispered legends of a secret brotherhood dedicated to protecting the myth of Juan Diego at all costs.
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.920
The custodians of Tepeac.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:59.440
Tonight, as I crossed the cathedral square, I felt their eyes on me.
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:02.960
A figure in a black cassock lingered by the fountain.
00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:08.719
Another leaned against the colonnade, his face hidden beneath a wide-brimmed hat.
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:10.639
My pulse quickened.
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:12.880
I pushed through the cathedral doors.
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:18.159
Inside the air was cool, incense still clinging to the cavernous nave.
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:22.719
Shadows flickered across gilded saints and marble angels.
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:29.039
I moved quickly, counting the steps to the sacristy where I had arranged a meeting with Dr.
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:34.159
Elena Marin, an art historian I trusted with my life.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.360
But the sacristy was empty.
00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:41.599
Instead, a single candle burned inside the altar.
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:45.679
Beside it lay a folded parchment sealed in red wax.
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:47.440
My stomach tightened.
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:48.960
I broke the seal.
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:50.800
The letter was brief.
00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:57.840
Curly, you have uncovered a truth centuries old, but the custodians will not allow this revelation to breathe daylight.
00:51:58.079 --> 00:51:59.119
Trust no one.
00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:01.360
Even I cannot protect you now.
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:03.920
A floorboard creaked behind me.
00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:05.039
I turned.
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:10.719
Three men in cassocks emerged from the shadows, their eyes glinting like knives.
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:19.039
One held a rosary wound tightly around his fist, as though it were both prayer and weapon.
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:21.280
Senor Tlbayau.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:26.239
The tallest intoned, his Spanish tinged with Italian.
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:29.519
The painting you carry belongs to the church.
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:32.639
Hand it over and ye may yet be spared.
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:35.599
That's terrible.
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:42.320
Adrenaline surged through me, my hand tightened on the satchel strap.
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:43.920
I shook my head.
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.559
The world deserves to know the truth.
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:51.840
Juan Diego never existed, and you've been protecting a lie.
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:57.519
The man's lips curled into a smile that carried no warmth.
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:02.639
Not for the world for the faithful.
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:16.079
Before I could answer, the cathedral bells toll once more, their thunderous sound masking the rush of my footsteps as I bolted toward the side door.
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:22.559
The custodians' shouts echoed after me, a chorus of rage in their house of their god.
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:28.880
I plunged into the night, the painting thumping against my hip with every stride.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:38.960
Ahead, Mexico City sprawled out like a labyrinth of secrets, every alley a possible ambush, every shadow a threat.
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:50.320
But I had no choice, because in my hands was the evidence that could topple centuries of devotion, unravel one of the most powerful symbols of Catholic Mexico.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:56.719
And the custodians of Tepeac would kill to make sure I never showed it to the world.
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:03.039
As I dashed through the rain-slicked streets, the man's words echoed in my mind.
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:08.239
Truth is not for the world, truth is for the faithful.
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:14.000
No, I muttered to myself, the truth is like medicine.
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:20.239
It doesn't always taste good, but it is always good for you.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:22.719
Bum bum bum.
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:25.360
Very good.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:26.719
I like it.
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:29.119
I just thought I'd have some fun.
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:30.000
Yeah.
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:46.239
But what's funny though is I I uh I expect too much from people, obviously, because you know I'm in in the book, in the story, uh I'm convinced that if I only show them the the accurate information, they'll obviously change their minds.
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:47.119
Aaron Powell Of course.
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:50.880
Because you know that's how reasonable people reasonable people behave.
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:51.360
Yeah.
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:56.719
You know, you could convince any zealot to uh today's reasonable world that we live in.
00:54:57.280 --> 00:54:57.599
Yeah.
00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:04.880
All you need is that little smidgen of evidence, and people will be like, oh, let me re-evaluate the positions that I currently hold.
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:05.360
Yep.
00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:07.360
Um I might be wrong.
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:11.920
Methinks I I ask too much.
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:13.440
Yep.
00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:15.039
Unfortunately.
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:20.880
Thank you, dear listeners, for listening to the Tales from Oslantis Podcast.
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:29.920
For those of you who are premium members, you will be getting an entire extra segment to this episode in our premium feed.
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:39.519
In this bonus segment, we're going to be talking about the church's efforts to prove the existence of Juan Diego by locating his living descendants.
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:46.719
And if you are not a premium member, yeah, if you are not a premium member, please consider becoming one.
00:55:46.960 --> 00:56:06.320
Just follow the link in the show notes or visit us at talesfromostlantes.com, and for a mere five bucks a month, you will get ad-free episodes, bonus content, and access to our Discord server where you can interact with us and other fans of the show.
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:09.840
I've really been enjoying the Discord uh conversations lately, too.
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:11.840
Five dollars in this economy currently?
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:12.559
Come on, man.
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:14.800
Well, it's you know what?
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:16.880
You could even start at three bucks a month.
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:17.679
How about that?
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:18.880
Three bucks a month.
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:19.440
What a deal.
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:20.639
Three, my lord.
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:21.519
Pick three.
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:29.360
Go premium and support independent indigenous Chicano media.
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:37.760
And now for our premium members, we're going to continue with some extended content that you free listeners just don't get.
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:40.559
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00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:48.320
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00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:52.960
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00:56:53.119 --> 00:57:00.159
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00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:05.599
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