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You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be.
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I'm Dr.
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Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning.
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Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.
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John Karippo, welcome to the Supported Learning Podcast.
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How are you, sir?
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Thank you, Dr.
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Joe.
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Super excited to join you.
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And uh what I love about this is we're kind of blind interviewing each other as two educators who are passionate about uh teaching and learning.
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And uh I just love the idea that we're gonna kind of suss it out live.
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Absolutely.
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I think that's I think that's good.
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But I do have a little bit of background since my team did not share the notes.
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But you have over 22 years in education, over 15 years in the classroom, you're the co-author of Edu Protocols.
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You've had a decade of educational leadership at the site, district, county, and state level.
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You've taught in four to eight and nine to twelve classroom settings, leveraged experience to help teachers teach better and work less.
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Love that.
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And uh you're a published author.
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And uh we had uh you're one of the one of the copyrighted by Dave Purgis, uh Teach Like a Pirate.
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We just had him on the podcast not too long ago.
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So and I'm just learning more about you that you were in California and really close to Yosemite National Park.
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So I got a I got a travel travel itinerary already lined up.
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Yeah, so and as long as you're coming to Yosemite, you can hit Kings Canyon and uh Sequoia as well.
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They're just a little bit south of there.
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So you're gonna hit the triple.
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I was really tempted.
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I don't know if you know cars and bids, but like I uh there was like the Mercedes Sprinter, like extended, was was for sale out in California.
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It was like 60 grand.
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It was like a fit 10 people, like yeah.
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I'm like, and it sold for 70.
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I told him, I'm like, we could definitely that's actually a pretty good price.
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Was and last year I was like, hey, we were going out to Denver for my wife's cousin's wedding.
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Kids were invited.
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We're gonna we're gonna do the 24-hour by land.
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We'll we'll stop at Missouri, then we'll go up to Yosemite.
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Or no, we'll go up to um Yellowstone, we'll go up to the Tetons.
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Yeah, and then we did about five hours in the car on a different road trip, and we found out that that was gonna be absolute torture with three kids under nine years old.
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So, but maybe one day, maybe one day we'll do the cross-country adventure.
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But anyway, well you might like this story.
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One year, six of my friends talked uh a major education conference in Detroit into sponsoring us, and uh the six of us rented an RV and drove straight through no hotels from California to Michigan, and then did like 36 sessions in uh in three days and then flew home, and it was super fun.
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That's uh that's that's definitely it's definitely a road trip.
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I I will say I think I'm biased.
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I think the West is way more interesting than the East in our country, just in the sites.
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But anyway, John, thrilled to have you here today.
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You're a best-selling author.
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You uh we just started talking a little bit about pedagogy, and you were talking about we have two, we have two dichotomy dichotomy of the people are gonna go all in on AI education and think it's gonna like erase all the present-day structures, people who are in a rush to get devices out of kids, and you think it's gonna be none of those.
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And where are we at the state of education today?
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Well, so I think what's happening, and and I think this is gonna be a very kind of meta conversation, but I started teaching in the late mid-late 90s, like 1996.
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And that was right when standards were coming out.
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And so you gotta ask yourself this question historically.
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Why did we all of a sudden create statewide standards?
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And it's easy.
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We were not getting results.
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Teachers were teaching, parents and legislators thought like their kids were not getting results.
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And so they came out with standards, and teachers as a profession kind of proceeded to not care if there were standards because uh they taught how they wanted to teach.
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So, lo and behold, uh, a few years later, guess what shows up?
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Standardized tests.
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Why do we have standardized tests to make sure teachers are teaching the standards?
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Okay.
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Then teachers proceeded to not really pay much attention to the state test.
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They would say, I hate state testing, I'm not gonna do drill and kill, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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And so we just kind of bumbled along for a few years.
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Then devices started becoming more popular.
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And then uh we had COVID happen, right?
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After No Child Left Behind and uh Race to the Top.
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And there's a through line here, Joe, which sounds like this no matter what happens, people keep teaching the same way.
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It doesn't matter if it's no child left behind, state testing, standards, adding devices, COVID.
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Teachers want to teach the same way.
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They have a cultural preference to teach this way.
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And so the dichotomy that I see forming up right now is that we've got a group of people who are saying, let's go whole hog with AI, which I'm not against, but I think the majority of teachers and parents don't know what that really means.
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Like we're not giving kids brisk and chat GPT to teach with AI.
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That is not a thing to give kids an LLM and say, let it write your essay or do your math.
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So there's a huge misunderstanding there.
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But then on the other side, we got a group of people that are saying we need to get rid of devices altogether.
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And this is where I'm gonna kind of bring this all together and then we can really start chatting it up.
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So let me get this straight.
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The reasoning for getting rid of devices is the kids are distracted.
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Well, I went to school in the 70s.
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We were distracted.
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You should have seen what we did with protractors to kill flies.
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I've already been distracted.
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As a teacher, I lived through the 90s without one-to-one.
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I lived through pogs, jacks, marbles, all these different things that were kids who were bored.
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So one group of teachers, uh sorry, I think a lot of the teachers that want to get rid of devices are thinking these kids are off task and they're distracted.
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And if I can get rid of the device, I can control them.
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Bad news for you guys.
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No.
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There's another group of teachers who I've seen saying this quietly on on social media is if we get rid of the devices, Joe, I won't have to add any AI knowledge or PD to my repertoire.
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Like, if there's no devices, I don't need to learn AI.
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And I don't know how old you are, but I can make some generalizations about your face.
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I started teaching at a time when veteran teachers were saying these exact words out loud in staff meetings.
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I'm gonna retire before I need to learn how to use email.
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That is not a reasonable professional answer to what the current status is.
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So there's a group of teachers who are thinking they can somehow save themselves from tons of crappy PD by not using AI or devices.
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And here's the problem.
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If you have kids on paper all year, your workload's gonna skyrocket.
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And Joe, you don't know much about my work right now, but I'm gonna tell you right now.
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I can get six graders through 100 Latin roots in two weeks with a class average above 90%.
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Say this nice and slow, kind of Clint Eastwood-wise.
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You cannot do that pace or growth on paper.
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It's impossible.
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Okay.
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So I'm gonna wrap this up.
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Where is the current push coming from?
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Parents are realizing their kids are underperforming in school.
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But if you look at the data since 1970, it's not really down that much.
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It's been bad all along.
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And I can show you the graphic later.
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Second, teachers are worn out from forcing kids to use technology, but they're using it like a babysitter.
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Hey guys, do iReady for 45 minutes.
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Hey guys, do Zern for 45 minutes, hey guys, do iXL for 45 minutes.
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That isn't ever gonna result in educational growth because the way that it's being done is kind of low-key soul killing.
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I'm gonna flash back to accelerator reader.
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Remember that?
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So most of these platforms are using are like a version of that.
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And so here's where my call to action for you is gonna be.
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I don't think that we are going to ban our way out of the current fit um educational melees.
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We're gonna have to change the way we teach so that it meets modern children.
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And then I will give back to Mike to you so we can actually have a conversation and not me just soapboxing.
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No, I like it.
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So your thesis is that we have not actually changed the way we've taught in 50.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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And I got inspired by an Instagram post I saw last night, just for this talk, which is people think that kids are just sitting passively at looking in devices, and they think that devices are built to use up your attention span.
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Some teachers you will hear them say these kids are dopamine freaks, for one example.
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But here's the reality how do we measure engagement in a non-tech class, Joe?
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Are you looking at me?
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So all I'm doing is replacing the device.
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Kids sitting and looking at an adult while the adult lectures or teaches them a math equation or reads popcorn style reading.
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That's not engagement, it's attention.
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And there's a difference there.
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In engagement, kids enter a flow state.
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They're actively building, they're creating things, they're using all of these things.
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And that is way harder in a tech-free classroom.
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And how do I know?
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Again, I have uh 14 years of experience as a student in a tech-free classroom, and I taught as a teacher for seven or eight years before I had any kind of one-to-one situation.
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So the premise here is the system is completely broken in how we train teachers, how what our expectations are.
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How do we change it?
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Because you've mentioned several of the reform movements.
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So I think, I guess to give the audience some context, a lot of this came from a nation at risk, right?
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Whereas the study that Americans are behind, which then set off the late 1980s, 1990s reform movement, which 10 years later leads us to no child left behind, and schools are failing, and we finally have data that say all this.
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And that led to um race to the top, and now every child succeeds.
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So we've had essentially 25 years, 26 years of accountability in schools, of measuring progress, where otherwise, because I grew up in that environment, mostly it wasn't there.
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I mean, I you know, no child FBI was passed in 2000, but I would say the effects really weren't seen until like 2004, 2005, 2006.
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But then I was done with high school.
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So really 20 years, 25 years, but the but you're right, we haven't changed what we've how we fundamentally teach, but we also are now we're measuring something completely different, assessment-wise, too.
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And what like so I understand what you're saying, but I guess how do we get unstuck as a as a collaboration of educators?
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So as a as a as a community of educators, not collaboration, community of educators, the system is broke, we haven't we have to change.
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How do we change and what do we change into?
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Well, you know, with teachers, sports and military metaphors are not very popular.
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For example, Joe, imagine showing up at a Formula One race, right?
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Formula One race, and you've got the fastest car in the world from 1974.
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How many races are you gonna win?
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Probably not many, none.
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You're at a contemporary race, you got the fastest car in the world from 1974, you're not gonna win any races.
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Do you know why?
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The state of the art has moved forward.
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Okay, I want you to show up at a you can go American football or soccer.
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And I want you to coach the kids like it's 1974.
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How many games are you gonna win?
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Right.
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You might win a few, but you're not gonna dominate because your techniques are out of date.
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And so for for my purposes, the first thing we've gotta do is we gotta get honest about what we want is not a thing.
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What we want is not a thing.
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What our teacher desire is, it doesn't work.
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And I'll give you uh, and I need to interject one little thing because we're getting to know each other, our backgrounds.
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So I taught full-time as recently as COVID.
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Okay, and uh I taught full-time sixth grade during 21, uh 2020, 21.
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And then I got so many calls for people wanting me to help their schools that I start I went on the road.
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In the last five years, Joe, I've been in a thousand classrooms in eight states and four countries.
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So I have a very unique skill set and perspective here.
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I want you to imagine a thousand classrooms, eight states, four countries.
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Guess how many times I've walked in, Joe, and seen the classroom and gone, oh my god, I've never seen anything like this before.
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This is so amazing.
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Everywhere I go, it's the same thing.
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Sit in little groups, be quiet, wait for teacher, little basket of books that nobody ever seems to open, but they fidget with it a lot.
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Grades done at night on the teacher's time, not much improvement.
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Dude, everywhere I go, everybody teaches the same way.
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I don't know if you remember the old uh Sylvester Stallone movie, I think it was Judge Dredd, where every restaurant was Taco Bell.
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Yeah.
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That's kind of what school is.
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And for the culture of teaching to be so narrow makes it impossible to be its best.
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And notice I didn't say ineffective.
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There's kids that do well in school, there's kids that take AP classes and go on to college and do really fancy things.
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But I'm talking about success for every kid.
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School is not built for that.
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And that's why we're not getting those results.
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This episode is brought to you by Supported Tutoring, where we don't just help students get better grades, we help them become critical thinkers.
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00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.360
So do you think so?
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Here's my here's my theory, right?
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And by the way, I do have I do have your notes.
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I do have the the notes for finally shared with me about your background.
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So um, but my thing, and this is what I, as an administrator, I kind of like it drives me nuts.
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Doctors have to have continuing education credits, lawyers have continuing education, it's correct, accountant, but education.
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Try to be an accountant from 1974 right now, Joe.
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Right.
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It's not you're not gonna do it.
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Now your math skills might be great, but you're gonna get eaten alive by the business of it.
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You don't know how to send a fax, and you're trying to use email, right?
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So it's not that your math skills are bad, but like you don't tax code has changed, you know, tax shelters are changed.
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All those things have changed.
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And in teaching, we just kind of remain monolithic and we're not that worried about what people outside of education are doing.
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I even we're like almost to a point where we're anti-learning.
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Like we're teachers are kind of a ghost element.
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We so ingrained that it's starting to feel like it's going backwards.
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Right.
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And I don't, I uh so like there's there's obviously a disconnect in colleges with teacher prep programs that they don't adequately prepare kids, prepare students to become teachers, number one.
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There's a lack of well, but there's a little bit of it that's a more insidious.
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I don't mean to cut you off, but this one's important.
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There's a group of teachers who have a mistaken personal identity with what teaching is.
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And the analogy I use is I have a whole bunch of friends that are teachers, and quite a few have told me that they've done something like this.
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They would put all their stuffed animals on the bed and they'd set up an easel and they would teach the stuffed animals.
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And they thought that was so cool when they were a kid, right?
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That doesn't translate to a classroom.
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You got 30 people in there.
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They have needs, they have fears, they have hopes, they have desires.
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You can't just tell them to be quiet all day and teach them like they're stuffed animals.
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So, yes, the teacher prep programs have a big part in this proliferation of this mindset, but there's people that bring the mindset before they even get to college.
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And I think it's really tricky because it it diminishes the individuals.
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So the teacher is the most important thing in the room.
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So agreed.
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And schools don't adequately most school systems, their induction program is getting them ready for like HR and health insurance.
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It's not really here's how we're there.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.279
A lot of them aren't going as far as this is how you're supposed to teach.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.079
So nothing, nothing gets nothing happens, basically, right?
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:42.319
So okay, so you've been over in over a thousand classrooms, you've impacted 70,000 teachers trained.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:47.920
You you've had given keynotes, you've you've how do we how do we move the needle?
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:55.680
How do we change what what are we what is our goal to change the structural dynamics of teaching and learning?
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.039
Well, that's what I've been working on for about 20 years.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.839
And the reality of it is that the culture of teaching doesn't want to hear it that much.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.519
There's small groups that do.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:17.279
From my perspective, there's a couple of things that we can change pedagogically, as long as we're willing to let the thing between our ears grow.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.680
Here's my first favorite thing, Joe.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.000
Everything in a K8 classroom moves too slowly.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:24.640
Everything.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.279
Everything.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:31.200
I've seen teachers take 10 minutes just to kid get kids logged into a GIMK or a way ground.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.559
Five minutes a day is 15 hours a year, Joe.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.240
We are wasting gigantic swaths of time.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:41.920
That's my first biggest one.
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:43.759
Everything is too slow.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:50.799
And what we tell the K3 kids a lot of times, this is the cliche is wait for teacher, wait for teacher.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.680
And it takes 20 minutes to get kids logged into a typing program.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:05.519
And so instead of teaching them to have a tempo and a flow, I want you to imagine a kid every day that's trying to go and being told not to.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.000
And what does that look like after eight or nine years?
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.000
It looks it looks worn out.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.480
So that's one of my first biggest things that we do, poorly or incorrectly.
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.200
Another one that I hear a lot, and I know you've heard this one, Joe, I've said it myself in the past.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:22.079
Ready?
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:30.720
If you don't do this now, you'll have homework tonight.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.720
And you gotta put yourself in the mind of a 12-year-old.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.599
So you're saying I can talk to the cute girl now and do my work tonight.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.799
So you're saying I can talk to my buddies and do the work tonight.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.440
You know what?
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.039
I'm gonna say yes to that.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.359
And then what happens in real life, Joe?
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.079
Procrastination.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.519
Well, I like then they don't do mine as a mine as a high school teacher.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.559
Is I'm doing my work.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.039
I'm doing my work.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:05.359
Dr.
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:05.920
Sr.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.119
Special, I'm doing my, or just give me, just give me my work.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.319
I don't need like I'm in, I'm I'm doing, give me my work.
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:13.440
I did my work.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:31.119
And it's like, so the 60-minute, the 90-minute, the 30-minute, the 40-minute lesson, whatever happened, the learning that happened to class can be summarized in I give my kids something, a piece of paper, and that is adequate enough for missing an entire day of instruction.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.200
Yeah, I agree.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:34.799
So let me get this straight.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.680
In an hour, I'm gonna talk for 30 to 40 minutes.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.119
I'm gonna be very entertaining.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.759
I'm gonna hand out 12 question worksheets, and then the kids are gonna do it.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.119
And that's proof of learning in a modern world.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.240
Negative.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.440
Negative.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.400
The second thing, so so the problem.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.319
So the first thing was the tempo.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.799
And the second thing was the open-endedness.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.160
So I run my class more like a CrossFit training.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:01.920
Everybody, let's go arms.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:02.960
Let's go arms.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:04.000
Let's go arms.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.119
Everybody, work the shoulders, work the shoulders.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.000
And I say, Dr.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.759
Joe in the back, uh, that form's not good, but thanks for playing along.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.200
And guess what happens?
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.359
After a week or two, you get the routine, you get comfortable.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.599
Over time, your form gets better.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:30.160
And so one of the other massive things we do in education that is that is not helpful is we have got to give kids feedback real time.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.480
We've got to give them real-time feedback.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.160
And here's why.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.359
Until they get real-time feedback, they're not gonna work because what's the point?
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:48.400
Um, in a classic high school class, okay, so what grade level did you was your favorite to teach?
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.240
What is your favorite to do?
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.359
Okay, I wanted to visualize a class, Joe.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:05.359
Hey guys, here's your textbook, your paragraph about the discovery of the new world is due at the end of class.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.319
What are your kids gonna do for 41 minutes?
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:13.519
Mess around.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.359
Nothing, right?
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:24.720
Because they're teenagers, they think they're invisible, invincible, and then with nine minutes to go, they're all panicking to try to slap some crap together.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:26.400
Right.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.039
Huh.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.000
So the way I teach and the way I've been teaching teachers to teach looks like this.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:38.400
Here is either textbook, printed page, or web page.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.400
Everything you need is on that.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:49.359
I want you to write me two paragraphs about the discovery of the new world or Balboa or whatever, and you've got nine minutes.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:04.079
That means I can have the kids done with the assignment and graded within 12 to 15 minutes, which means I can do three more assignments in the 45 minutes that are left over.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:06.160
That's triple the work.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.319
If I said, let's triple your paycheck, you'd get excited about that.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:21.279
Now, the problem with tripling the work is teachers have a little voice in their amygdala back here that says, I don't really want to do more work because then I'll have to grade more work.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.400
And that's where devices and AI come in.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:32.559
So if you use a tool like Snorkel, which gives immediate feedback through AI, no copy pasting allowed.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:40.799
If you use class companion, which gives immediate feedback, no copy pasting allowed, you can use my short answer.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:56.160
The point is you get this rhythm going because now instead of hand in your stack of papers at the end of class and I might grade them tonight, I might grade them this weekend, it looks like this.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.319
Write those paragraphs, and I'm gonna tell you how the AI did in nine minutes.
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:10.000
Oh, by the way, Joe, you can answer two or three times if you like, because I don't want kids just turning it in for a D.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:11.839
I want them to do it right.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.480
So, like here's another little pivot.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:20.799
In Snorkel, which if you haven't seen is fantastic, there's a four-point rubric from the AI.
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:28.079
When you turn it in, your grade could be a zero, a one, a two, a three, or a four.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:36.160
And what I train teachers and my own kids that I'm working with a zero's a zero, a one's a zero, a two's a zero.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.799
I'm not accepting those scores because the AI will tell you what to fix.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.440
And if you're confused, I will walk over and help you.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.519
But here's where it gets cool: if you get a three, that's an A.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:59.519
And if you get a four, which is nearly impossible, I shouldn't say impossible, um, you got to work at it to get a four because the AI in snorkel is inflexible.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.599
And um, if you if you so if you get a three, you get a 90.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:12.960
If you get a four, I'll give you an extra 10% for being willing to try at least once more to improve your score.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.079
And Joe, we're graded before we leave class.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:28.400
Whereas, you know, what happened with Lucy Calkins and the workshop model was think about your idea for a whole week.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:39.519
So meanwhile, my kids are writing a paragraph a day, your kids are writing a paragraph a week, you're spending all weekend grading them, and then Monday going over them.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:41.359
It's not efficient.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:43.119
It's not efficient.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:48.480
In my class, we're doing five paragraphs a day or a week.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:54.160
In 10 weeks, my kids will have written 50 paragraphs and your kids will have written 10.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:56.799
Well, not even close.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.759
You you you're striking at something that is core at like what we do in my company.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.039
I mean, what I believe in.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.440
First off, you know, the adage of whoever does the work does the learning, right?
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.400
So I read, I I saw a book.
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:11.279
I have a book.
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:11.920
I should say this.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.759
I have a book that says never, it's the title is never work harder than your students.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.640
Never read it.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:18.960
I got the idea just the title.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:19.680
Never.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:20.559
Yeah.
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:21.680
Right.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.039
I've done that a few times.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:26.400
I see you see like a picture of a quote and I go, I get it.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.440
I don't need to read the book.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:28.079
I get it.
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:28.799
Right.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:40.000
So, but it really came to fruition of like, you know, I can I I I taught IB history for my longest tenure in Virginia in a 90-minute block class.
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:44.480
And the first year I tried to lecture my way through that, and I was freaking exhausted.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:45.440
Like, it is impossible.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:46.559
Yeah, that's obvious.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:55.599
And having kids actually do the work, having, and that's we created iteration cycles of them writing and giving feedback.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:06.720
So you that's the whole idea of how we do test prep in our company is it's really like you already know you've you've sat in a classroom all year, you've gotten your content.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.640
Right now, you have to do reps.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:17.119
What's standing between you and the score you want is the amount of reps you can do, times, and like you said, with feedback.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:24.160
Most feedback that feedback is so delayed from getting to the test.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:24.880
Yeah.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:30.880
And then you take a test, and then a week later you get it feedback, and then, oh, I can't make any corrections to this.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.640
This is what I got, moving on.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.200
Right.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:41.680
Learning what you're doing, and what you're doing is analogous to letting third graders double dribble in the basketball game.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.079
You have to stop that behavior.
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:49.279
It's analogous to having a fourth grader pick up a soccer ball during the game and they're not a goalie.
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:51.039
Everybody loses their mind.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.759
There's things you cannot do, right?
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.039
You just cannot.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:00.079
Here's another edge of protocol, which is, you know, that's kind of our thing that we do.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.839
Here's another one that I really like, Joe.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:04.640
Ready for this?
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:15.279
Normally, and when I say that, everywhere I've ever seen, first quarter, the genre that we write in might be narrative.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:16.400
Sounding familiar?
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:18.720
First quarter, practicing narrative.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:22.079
They might do two essays or three.
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.400
Second quarter, we move on to compare, contrast, or argumentative.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:31.759
Again, they might do two or three essays, a lot of practice.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:36.000
Third quarter, classically, informational literacy.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.039
Okay.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.599
And then fourth quarter, we do poetry.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.599
Well, first of all, there's five genres, but we only did four.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:49.599
And we only did four because it wasn't symmetrical.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:54.079
In our type A brain, we're like, well, I've got five quarter, four quarters.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.160
How do I shove five things in?
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:04.240
So this is one that uh I created, and then Josie Wozniak, who if you haven't met, she's fantastic.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.799
And so watch what we do now, Joe.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.519
We'll give kids a funny picture for the start.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.880
One of the classics we use as a car at Kate Mart that's overloaded.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:14.480
Watch what we do, though.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.559
Write one paragraph about this in narrative.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.640
Write one paragraph about this in compare contrast.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.960
Write one paragraph about this in informational literacy mode.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.759
We're asking kids to do three genres at once.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.240
And that's why, guess what?
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.480
I don't do test prep.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.039
I know teachers that do 10 weeks of test prep.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:40.319
I don't do test prep.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.920
The whole year is test prep.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.279
We're always test prepping.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:51.440
And when we show kids that protocol, which our fun name for it is the triple genre challenge, three genres at once.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.640
Think of this functionally how it's a totally different animal.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.960
We're gonna do narrative all year, Joe.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.440
We're gonna do compare contrast all year.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.319
We're gonna do informational all year.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:12.799
And if I do that in snorkel, it'll grade all three paragraphs in real time, which means 10-year-old Joe could take three tries until he gets a four.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.480
Because I'm not taking a D.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.079
I'm not gonna take a D.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.359
You got to do it right.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:18.640
Here's the feedback.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.319
And the great part is if you pick good pictures, the kids laugh their heads off.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.640
They think it's the fun, funnest thing ever.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.359
And so that's the way that the Edger Protocols goes after this problem.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:36.559
You just make a couple tweaks on the lesson plan, you know, abandon ship on the type A, one thing per quarter.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.880
And now, to be fair, I could emphasize one a quarter.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.240
Like I could emphasize a narrative, but I'm never gonna stop.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:49.200
And then next quarter, I could emphasize argumentative, but I'm never gonna stop.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:58.960
And what happens is when the kids get to the big tests, the state test or the IB or the AP, they can code switch like crazy on genres.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:04.240
They can write on demand like nobody's business because I've immersed them in that all year.
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:11.599
And my quote about that that I love I love, I ran into on the internet was uh wet man does not fear the rain.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.519
And I just don't think we're training kids at that level.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.240
I don't think we're immersing them enough.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:29.680
We do little small blips of things, and then I don't know if you've ever read the book The End of Average by Todd Rhodes, but it is fantastic.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:43.440
And uh he talks about the idea that school wasn't built for kids to actually grow, school was built so that the kids who were willing to do the work that the teacher demands went to the next level.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:45.920
That's not the same thing as every kid growing.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.680
And I think subconsciously teachers don't realize that they've bought into that strategy.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:34:02.480
Now they won't tell you that to your face, but when you look at the gradebook, and when kids say, What if an F, uh what teachers say, what if an F is the the grade they deserve?
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:10.559
And when teachers say, I can't teach these kids because they have bad parents, so at what point are you abandoning ship on your own shit?
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.880
And my perspective is that yes, there are troublesome parents.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:24.960
I got 19 years in the classroom that are crazy, pushy, tigery, weak-minded uh teachers, uh parents that lie about teachers.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:26.000
Yeah, that's all true.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:27.840
But here's the deal, Joe.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.280
I've got them for six hours a day.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:43.519
If I can't solve that problem with the kids in six hours a day, and the parents only see the kids for an hour a day, how are we supposed to do better than the parents with six times more?
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:45.760
You build your culture.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:53.760
Those same kids are fine on football teams, soccer teams, they're fine at science camp, they're fine everywhere.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:59.920
They're bad in class because we're not leading them in the way that they need to be led.
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:01.440
That's why they're bad in class.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:06.159
They're bored, they don't respect the classroom, they don't respect the situation.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.519
But then you see teachers that do things like countdown charts.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.159
Only 100 days till we're out of here, you guys.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.320
What's the teacher telling the kids?
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.079
Here's how I start the classroom every year, Joe.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:26.800
Hey, I'm gonna treat you guys with respect because 25 years from now, I'm gonna meet your kids.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.159
When you tell sixth graders that, they lose their minds.
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:36.559
15 years from now, you're gonna call me and say, What's the best Macintosh to buy?
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.320
Nine years from now, you're gonna say, Krupo, I graduated from college.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.239
Will you come to see me?
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.800
I've been doing this long enough, you guys.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:49.519
I know that this is a potentially lifelong friendship that we're gonna be building.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.000
And I'm gonna treat you with that level of respect.
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:53.519
And you know what's insane?
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.960
When you tell the kids that, they respond in kind.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:07.119
What would you say to parents out there who are like I've adopted one of my students and I've performed weddings for three.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.280
I am not screwing around when I say this.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.440
That's that's you know what, you know what's funny?
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.400
I am now old enough.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.760
And I'm not a minister.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.880
They made me do one of those$39 things.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:31.039
I have a student that uh like I used to meet up with a couple of graduated students after we moved back to Pennsylvania and meet up around Thanksgiving, take some to lunch, and with my wife and the ones I stay connected to over the years, track them through college.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:37.039
I had one invite us to her wedding a couple years ago, and now she's actually moving to Pittsburgh, which is really cool.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.639
So yeah, and you know what's the coolest is if they show up at your school as a teacher or a sub, that's fantastic.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:43.280
Yeah.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:48.400
We have a couple of those in the schools that I've worked in that they're generationally passed down.
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:56.960
I've I've got another uh call to action for anybody that's on TikTok or Instagram and they teach they see teachers bemoaning the state of things.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.400
And I'm trust me on this, I'm a fantastic complainer.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.639
Things are not perfect right now.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.559
School is underfunded.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.519
I freaking hate standardized testing, it's ridiculous.
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:12.400
They're turning it into college prep when what we need is a basic skills test.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:16.159
That's what school should be, is a basic skills test, not an AP test.
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.880
If you're in IB, they have a test for you.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.360
We don't need to run everybody through that, right?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:36.639
I got my complaints, but I had a superintendent once, I was in front of about 200 administrators, and the superintendent said, John, how do we get more kids to think teaching is a good profession, especially students of color?
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.159
How do we get more people of color to adopt this?
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:45.679
Uh to this was my answer off the top of my head, and I'm gonna stick by it.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:52.639
You know, maybe if we weren't complaining about the kids all the time, maybe it's it looked like we enjoyed school.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:56.480
Maybe, maybe those kids would say, you know what, that looks cool.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:58.559
That's not what we're putting out there, you know.
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.239
We're putting out that kind of Eeyore vibe, like, oh, it's Friday.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.199
I got so much grading to do this weekend.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:11.840
We aren't we aren't positioning our profession as something that's cool or interesting for adults to do.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.800
True.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.880
Teachers don't start off that great payroll-wise, but you know what?
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:21.679
You do it for 10, 15 years, you're up on the hundred thousand dollar range in a lot of situations.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.320
It'll take care of itself if you're good.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.599
Well, and it was a profession.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:33.840
Like when I before I even went into college, well, I should say, I was in college.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.519
Before I really got into the field, I looked at some of the teachers that I knew.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:43.840
They had a good what we call a middle class life, like a good life.
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:48.880
Like they had a nice house, they lived in the school district they taught in.
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.679
They had the had the middle class life.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:57.039
That is, you know, with so many other issues, that's kind of gone away.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:02.960
And we have piled so much onto the classroom, onto the teacher without really taking things off.
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:10.639
But you know, you're kind of getting into the heart of what a a classroom and learning environment should look like.
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:19.599
Well, what about what would you say to a parent that's hearing this or listening to this or seeing this, and they're like, What do I look for?
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:21.360
What do I look for in a classroom?
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.800
What do I need to know?
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:28.239
Um so in my case, I'm gonna have a non-standard answer for you there, Joe.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:29.119
Okay.
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:35.840
Classically, parents are looking for academics out of the school, right?
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:37.599
They look on U.S.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.039
News World Reports, who are who's got the highest scores?
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:42.559
Does that sound familiar?
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.679
Classically, and my angle's different.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:53.280
I I would say I would rather have a school where they see my kid for for what they are.
00:39:55.519 --> 00:40:00.800
I would say I would like to have a school where the teachers are invested in my kid as a person.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:09.039
And here's the fact of the matter academically, if you're motivated, you can exist in any class.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:15.280
So if this kid really wants to learn, it's totally doable.
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:26.800
But the number one thing they can have is a teacher that broadcasts empathy, interpersonal communications, supports your child, to me, those are way bigger.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:40.880
And again, I speak of this from the point of view of I had a kid that transferred into my class during COVID, and he had been his imagine a fifth grader that had been bullied to the point where he is having suicidal ideation.
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:49.840
Fifth grade from the cool district, you know, the the academic high-performing district.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.519
He showed up at my school wearing pajama bottoms and yellow crocs, and we accepted him for who he was.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:04.400
And he actually tripled his academic performance, but also turned into a full-fledged human being with friends and relationships.
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:06.400
And I've tracked his progress.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.920
He's a junior in high school now, and he's the lead drummer in a rock band and also sings.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.199
That is a long ways from where he started.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.320
And I had him doing plenty of academics in my class.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:24.960
We wrote essays, you know, we did projects, we don't, but the biggest thing he needed was a person who could lead him.
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:36.719
And I and I don't think you're gonna find that in a school that's only about academics because it becomes a little bit sterile because they say things like, Well, yeah, well, that's a tough family situation.
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:38.000
I can't really help it.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:41.920
I've got him for six hours, I can fix it.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:56.800
So you see it um non-academic, which is which is interesting because I would prefer to say intangibles and durable skills.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:03.679
What I'm getting framing one is you have, I guess we can kind of go black and white.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:10.639
You have schools that probably the more affluent are focused really strongly on the competitiveness and the academics.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:14.000
So there are parents there are super engaged and worried about that.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:21.599
Well, I don't see that there's there's there's problems with that too, Joe, because have you listened to the Sold a Story podcast yet?
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:22.559
Hmm.
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:25.280
No, it's a fantastic thing.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.400
It's the thing that got Lucy Calkins removed at Columbia.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:32.639
And honestly, I think why do we put so many eggs in her basket?
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:35.440
She has three years in the classroom.
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:40.559
Tell me the magic she figured out in three years that we should all be following.
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:44.159
Second, and I and I want to clarify this one.
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:53.360
I don't know this for a fact, but my understanding is her degree is actually in theology, which could be good for education, but why is she telling us how to teach?
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:54.320
I don't get it.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:05.440
And so, in that sold a story podcast, which is fantastic, if you like a like a really good murder mystery podcast, it's got that same really highly produced vibe.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:13.760
But there's a scenario where one of Lucy's employees decides she thinks, hey, this teaching thing is cool, and I'm gonna help change poor schools.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.679
I'm gonna go and work in poor schools and I'm gonna make them better.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:32.639
And she her plan was that she was going to go and work in these poor schools, I mean, in rich schools, for three years, and then take everything she learned from working at the rich school and do it at the poor school.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.480
Good plan, right?
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.119
Why don't we just teach the same way as the rich school at the poor school?
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:40.480
Here's the problem.
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.119
Here's the problem.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.480
The poor schools were already teaching exactly the same as the rich schools.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:54.960
You know what the difference was, Joe?
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:56.000
What's that?
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.199
When your kid isn't learning to read at a rich school.
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:02.960
You tell the parents that he needs a tutor.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:13.840
And when your kid's not learning to learn to read at a poor school, the teacher says, I don't know how to help him.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:20.480
It's it's still a pedagogical failure.
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.719
And I always think of it this way: everybody's born with the same hardware.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:30.079
Our brains have equal capacity, no matter the color of our skin, our income.
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.079
We can do things.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:39.119
And when we start looking at poor schools and saying they're underperforming because of their parents, that doesn't make any sense.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:40.639
They're underperforming.
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:49.039
You know, the president of Hong Kong grew up in a house with a mud floor, and he's the, I believe, the current president of Hong Kong.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:50.719
That is not a thing.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:54.400
That is a mental limitation that we're putting on kids.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:58.000
Oh, yeah, well, only a few of you will go to college.
00:44:58.239 --> 00:44:59.360
Why is that?
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:01.599
Well, it's because of the mindset we have.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.400
And I I really worry about that piece.
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.880
Uh I see teachers saying, they want more engagement.
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.599
I'm not here to entertain kids.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.320
They're not the same thing.
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:17.760
Entertainment does not mean engagement.
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:21.360
These are the same teachers that'll have kids watch a whole Disney movie.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.039
I guarantee you they are not engaged in that entire Disney movie.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:30.079
In fact, I've quit showing videos in my classroom that are more than about three minutes.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:36.880
Because the fact of the matter is the stuff I can show in school is not nearly as good as what they see outside.
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.840
So I gotta, I gotta do better than that.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.840
John, I can't believe we've almost come up on an hour already.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.480
I am joining this conversation, but uh we do have to kind of wrap it up.
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.280
But before we do, because first off, thank you for coming on.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.119
Thank you for sharing your story.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:04.559
First off, for anyone listening out there, educator, parent, teacher, student, even, if they want to learn more about you, where should they find information?
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:06.159
Oh, this is my favorite thing.
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.840
Just Google me, John Caripo.
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:09.760
Your Google feed will be slammed.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.079
You can also go if you want to be more surgical.
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.719
You can go to edgeprotocolsplus.com.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.360
That's where we uh share all of our goodness.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.360
Our books are available on Amazon.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:21.760
There's even an audiobook of one of ours.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:28.559
And then one of my things I'm uh famous for in my own mind is free lifetime tech support.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.880
So I am more than happy.
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:37.519
If anybody's listening and they say, John, I like it, but I don't know where to start, you send me an email, I will get you there.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:46.800
Because I believe some group of teachers has to go first in this shift of being student-oriented.
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:49.119
And here's just one more little zinger for you, Joe.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:54.320
When we're in school, we are being taught John Dewey, right?
00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:01.519
In college, it's constructivism, human uh humanity, experiential, all that stuff.
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:06.079
As soon as you're a paid teacher, you switch to Horace Mann.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.920
And it's Rose and it's impersonal.
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.239
And here's just a litmus test for any teachers that might be listening.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:21.280
Joe, if I hired you to be my football coach, would I hand you a Pearson football box?
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.000
It's lunacy.
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.880
Can you imagine?
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.039
You're my new music teacher, Joe.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.599
I want you to use Amplify Music Program.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.280
You better be on activity 16 by week four.
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:38.480
No.
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.599
The football coach tells the principal how the game is gonna go.
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:49.360
The band teacher tells the principal how the fall concert's gonna go.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.840
The FFA teacher tells the principal what they're doing.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:00.800
And yet, when you hire me to be an English teacher, I say, What program do you use?
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.400
Dude, I tell you how we're gonna teach English.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:07.360
Like, you don't need to buy me a book or a box.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:08.239
I got this.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:13.920
We're gonna be doing Heroes Journey, we're gonna be doing archetypes, we're gonna do all 36 literary devices.
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.360
I'm gonna have every kid in my class writing three paragraphs by September.
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:19.039
I know how I'm gonna teach.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.880
And I think that's missing in teaching.
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:24.239
Teachers, you know, they have a mindset that they're very independent.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.000
Crazy part is they're independently all doing the same thing.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.639
Well, that would be like saying, I have the best Taco Bell on the planet.
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:34.559
Bro, they're all Taco Bell.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.039
There's not better or worse Taco Bells.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:38.800
It's just Taco Bell.
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:49.840
So when you come into teaching and say, I'm gonna do this the same way as everybody else, but have better results, you zoom out and think about that statement.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.000
You can do everything the same way and have better results.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.679
Illogical.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:00.960
Well, John, I appreciate it you coming on.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:02.239
Um, I hope you'll come back.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:06.960
We'll we'll get maybe deeper into a couple topics more next time.
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:13.679
I would love to see if your listeners have questions and we can we can follow up on some of the things I talked about.
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.199
I've done all the things I'm expressing.
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:21.599
So when people say, I don't know about that, I will tell you exactly how it's gonna work.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:25.840
Oh, by the way, Joe, when I went back and taught during COVID, what was everybody yelling?
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:26.639
Learning.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.599
Learning loss, right?
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:33.760
Everybody's screaming learning loss.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:42.639
During COVID, my language arts students, their scores doubled from 23% passing to 48 during COVID.
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:47.199
My math kids went from 9% passing to 41.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.519
As a profession, we should be able to do that all the time.
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:53.599
And I was doing it during COVID.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:00.559
So, what is going on with this profession where we can't get kids to move forward?
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.679
At some point, we got to back up and say, how can I approach this problem differently?
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:18.079
And my funniest thing of all is, I'll bet you 40% of the teachers in the United States have an open and fixed mindset poster on their wall, and they don't even really understand what they're what they're putting up there.
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.719
I I 100% agree.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.119
I think mindset's really holding us back as a society, but also an education.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:32.800
So, John, yeah, thank you so much for being on it, the podcast, and uh we'll see you guys next time.
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:33.840
Thank you.
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.920
Thanks for joining us on the supported learning podcast.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:46.239
If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker.
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:52.800
We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together.
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.800
Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.
00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:08.800
You're listening to the Support Ed Learning Podcast, where we challenge the status quo of education and reimagine what learning should be.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:09.439
I'm Dr.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:19.199
Joe Sebastian, and in every episode we dive into critical thinking, Bloom's Taxonomy, educational innovation, and how AI is shaping the future of learning.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:27.359
Whether you're a teacher, parent, policymaker, or lifelong learner, you're in the right place to rethink, reshape, and revive education.
00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:32.000
John Karippo, welcome to the Supported Learning Podcast.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:33.200
How are you, sir?
00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:34.560
Thank you, Dr.
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:35.039
Joe.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.640
Super excited to join you.
00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:46.079
And uh what I love about this is we're kind of blind interviewing each other as two educators who are passionate about uh teaching and learning.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:50.159
And uh I just love the idea that we're gonna kind of suss it out live.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:51.119
Absolutely.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.560
I think that's I think that's good.
00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:57.119
But I do have a little bit of background since my team did not share the notes.
00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:03.359
But you have over 22 years in education, over 15 years in the classroom, you're the co-author of Edu Protocols.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:08.159
You've had a decade of educational leadership at the site, district, county, and state level.
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:16.159
You've taught in four to eight and nine to twelve classroom settings, leveraged experience to help teachers teach better and work less.
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:17.120
Love that.
00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:19.200
And uh you're a published author.
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:25.599
And uh we had uh you're one of the one of the copyrighted by Dave Purgis, uh Teach Like a Pirate.
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.840
We just had him on the podcast not too long ago.
00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:34.000
So and I'm just learning more about you that you were in California and really close to Yosemite National Park.
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:37.040
So I got a I got a travel travel itinerary already lined up.
00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:42.159
Yeah, so and as long as you're coming to Yosemite, you can hit Kings Canyon and uh Sequoia as well.
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:43.760
They're just a little bit south of there.
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:46.319
So you're gonna hit the triple.
00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:48.000
I was really tempted.
00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:57.599
I don't know if you know cars and bids, but like I uh there was like the Mercedes Sprinter, like extended, was was for sale out in California.
00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:58.400
It was like 60 grand.
00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:02.560
It was like a fit 10 people, like yeah.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.239
I'm like, and it sold for 70.
00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.519
I told him, I'm like, we could definitely that's actually a pretty good price.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:16.400
Was and last year I was like, hey, we were going out to Denver for my wife's cousin's wedding.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:17.680
Kids were invited.
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.840
We're gonna we're gonna do the 24-hour by land.
00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.360
We'll we'll stop at Missouri, then we'll go up to Yosemite.
00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:28.879
Or no, we'll go up to um Yellowstone, we'll go up to the Tetons.
00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:36.560
Yeah, and then we did about five hours in the car on a different road trip, and we found out that that was gonna be absolute torture with three kids under nine years old.
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:41.039
So, but maybe one day, maybe one day we'll do the cross-country adventure.
00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:44.000
But anyway, well you might like this story.
00:02:44.639 --> 00:03:06.159
One year, six of my friends talked uh a major education conference in Detroit into sponsoring us, and uh the six of us rented an RV and drove straight through no hotels from California to Michigan, and then did like 36 sessions in uh in three days and then flew home, and it was super fun.
00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.879
That's uh that's that's definitely it's definitely a road trip.
00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:12.800
I I will say I think I'm biased.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:17.599
I think the West is way more interesting than the East in our country, just in the sites.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.159
But anyway, John, thrilled to have you here today.
00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:21.759
You're a best-selling author.
00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:42.879
You uh we just started talking a little bit about pedagogy, and you were talking about we have two, we have two dichotomy dichotomy of the people are gonna go all in on AI education and think it's gonna like erase all the present-day structures, people who are in a rush to get devices out of kids, and you think it's gonna be none of those.
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And where are we at the state of education today?
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Well, so I think what's happening, and and I think this is gonna be a very kind of meta conversation, but I started teaching in the late mid-late 90s, like 1996.
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.800
And that was right when standards were coming out.
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:09.840
And so you gotta ask yourself this question historically.
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.360
Why did we all of a sudden create statewide standards?
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.319
And it's easy.
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We were not getting results.
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Teachers were teaching, parents and legislators thought like their kids were not getting results.
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And so they came out with standards, and teachers as a profession kind of proceeded to not care if there were standards because uh they taught how they wanted to teach.
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.639
So, lo and behold, uh, a few years later, guess what shows up?
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:42.240
Standardized tests.
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Why do we have standardized tests to make sure teachers are teaching the standards?
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Okay.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:55.680
Then teachers proceeded to not really pay much attention to the state test.
00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:00.480
They would say, I hate state testing, I'm not gonna do drill and kill, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:04.079
And so we just kind of bumbled along for a few years.
00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.959
Then devices started becoming more popular.
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.759
And then uh we had COVID happen, right?
00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:13.360
After No Child Left Behind and uh Race to the Top.
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:21.600
And there's a through line here, Joe, which sounds like this no matter what happens, people keep teaching the same way.
00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:29.759
It doesn't matter if it's no child left behind, state testing, standards, adding devices, COVID.
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Teachers want to teach the same way.
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They have a cultural preference to teach this way.
00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:53.040
And so the dichotomy that I see forming up right now is that we've got a group of people who are saying, let's go whole hog with AI, which I'm not against, but I think the majority of teachers and parents don't know what that really means.
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Like we're not giving kids brisk and chat GPT to teach with AI.
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That is not a thing to give kids an LLM and say, let it write your essay or do your math.
00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.319
So there's a huge misunderstanding there.
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:12.800
But then on the other side, we got a group of people that are saying we need to get rid of devices altogether.
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:18.079
And this is where I'm gonna kind of bring this all together and then we can really start chatting it up.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.120
So let me get this straight.
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The reasoning for getting rid of devices is the kids are distracted.
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Well, I went to school in the 70s.
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We were distracted.
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You should have seen what we did with protractors to kill flies.
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I've already been distracted.
00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.600
As a teacher, I lived through the 90s without one-to-one.
00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:46.319
I lived through pogs, jacks, marbles, all these different things that were kids who were bored.
00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:55.040
So one group of teachers, uh sorry, I think a lot of the teachers that want to get rid of devices are thinking these kids are off task and they're distracted.
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And if I can get rid of the device, I can control them.
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Bad news for you guys.
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No.
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:17.199
There's another group of teachers who I've seen saying this quietly on on social media is if we get rid of the devices, Joe, I won't have to add any AI knowledge or PD to my repertoire.
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Like, if there's no devices, I don't need to learn AI.
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And I don't know how old you are, but I can make some generalizations about your face.
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I started teaching at a time when veteran teachers were saying these exact words out loud in staff meetings.
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I'm gonna retire before I need to learn how to use email.
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That is not a reasonable professional answer to what the current status is.
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:51.680
So there's a group of teachers who are thinking they can somehow save themselves from tons of crappy PD by not using AI or devices.
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:53.600
And here's the problem.
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:58.720
If you have kids on paper all year, your workload's gonna skyrocket.
00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:02.480
And Joe, you don't know much about my work right now, but I'm gonna tell you right now.
00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:10.000
I can get six graders through 100 Latin roots in two weeks with a class average above 90%.
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:13.920
Say this nice and slow, kind of Clint Eastwood-wise.
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You cannot do that pace or growth on paper.
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It's impossible.
00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:22.879
Okay.
00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:25.279
So I'm gonna wrap this up.
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Where is the current push coming from?
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Parents are realizing their kids are underperforming in school.
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But if you look at the data since 1970, it's not really down that much.
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:39.679
It's been bad all along.
00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:42.159
And I can show you the graphic later.
00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:49.519
Second, teachers are worn out from forcing kids to use technology, but they're using it like a babysitter.
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.080
Hey guys, do iReady for 45 minutes.
00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:57.120
Hey guys, do Zern for 45 minutes, hey guys, do iXL for 45 minutes.
00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:06.080
That isn't ever gonna result in educational growth because the way that it's being done is kind of low-key soul killing.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:08.480
I'm gonna flash back to accelerator reader.
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Remember that?
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.679
So most of these platforms are using are like a version of that.
00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:17.360
And so here's where my call to action for you is gonna be.
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I don't think that we are going to ban our way out of the current fit um educational melees.
00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.399
We're gonna have to change the way we teach so that it meets modern children.
00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:38.080
And then I will give back to Mike to you so we can actually have a conversation and not me just soapboxing.
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No, I like it.
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:44.799
So your thesis is that we have not actually changed the way we've taught in 50.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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And I got inspired by an Instagram post I saw last night, just for this talk, which is people think that kids are just sitting passively at looking in devices, and they think that devices are built to use up your attention span.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.759
Some teachers you will hear them say these kids are dopamine freaks, for one example.
00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:12.320
But here's the reality how do we measure engagement in a non-tech class, Joe?
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.200
Are you looking at me?
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:19.279
So all I'm doing is replacing the device.
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:29.759
Kids sitting and looking at an adult while the adult lectures or teaches them a math equation or reads popcorn style reading.
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That's not engagement, it's attention.
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And there's a difference there.
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In engagement, kids enter a flow state.
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.519
They're actively building, they're creating things, they're using all of these things.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.519
And that is way harder in a tech-free classroom.
00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:46.799
And how do I know?
00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:59.600
Again, I have uh 14 years of experience as a student in a tech-free classroom, and I taught as a teacher for seven or eight years before I had any kind of one-to-one situation.
00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:08.639
So the premise here is the system is completely broken in how we train teachers, how what our expectations are.
00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:10.879
How do we change it?
00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.879
Because you've mentioned several of the reform movements.
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:21.679
So I think, I guess to give the audience some context, a lot of this came from a nation at risk, right?
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:37.120
Whereas the study that Americans are behind, which then set off the late 1980s, 1990s reform movement, which 10 years later leads us to no child left behind, and schools are failing, and we finally have data that say all this.
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.600
And that led to um race to the top, and now every child succeeds.
00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:57.120
So we've had essentially 25 years, 26 years of accountability in schools, of measuring progress, where otherwise, because I grew up in that environment, mostly it wasn't there.
00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:05.919
I mean, I you know, no child FBI was passed in 2000, but I would say the effects really weren't seen until like 2004, 2005, 2006.
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.320
But then I was done with high school.
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:24.159
So really 20 years, 25 years, but the but you're right, we haven't changed what we've how we fundamentally teach, but we also are now we're measuring something completely different, assessment-wise, too.
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:34.159
And what like so I understand what you're saying, but I guess how do we get unstuck as a as a collaboration of educators?
00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:43.039
So as a as a as a community of educators, not collaboration, community of educators, the system is broke, we haven't we have to change.
00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.399
How do we change and what do we change into?
00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:56.000
Well, you know, with teachers, sports and military metaphors are not very popular.
00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:05.440
For example, Joe, imagine showing up at a Formula One race, right?
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.440
Formula One race, and you've got the fastest car in the world from 1974.
00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:15.919
How many races are you gonna win?
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:17.759
Probably not many, none.
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:24.480
You're at a contemporary race, you got the fastest car in the world from 1974, you're not gonna win any races.
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:25.200
Do you know why?
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:27.360
The state of the art has moved forward.
00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:34.879
Okay, I want you to show up at a you can go American football or soccer.
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:40.159
And I want you to coach the kids like it's 1974.
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.120
How many games are you gonna win?
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:44.960
Right.
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:53.039
You might win a few, but you're not gonna dominate because your techniques are out of date.
00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:06.639
And so for for my purposes, the first thing we've gotta do is we gotta get honest about what we want is not a thing.
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.399
What we want is not a thing.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:14.399
What our teacher desire is, it doesn't work.
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:21.120
And I'll give you uh, and I need to interject one little thing because we're getting to know each other, our backgrounds.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.480
So I taught full-time as recently as COVID.
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:32.639
Okay, and uh I taught full-time sixth grade during 21, uh 2020, 21.
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:39.919
And then I got so many calls for people wanting me to help their schools that I start I went on the road.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:47.600
In the last five years, Joe, I've been in a thousand classrooms in eight states and four countries.
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.320
So I have a very unique skill set and perspective here.
00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:58.320
I want you to imagine a thousand classrooms, eight states, four countries.
00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:05.679
Guess how many times I've walked in, Joe, and seen the classroom and gone, oh my god, I've never seen anything like this before.
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:07.200
This is so amazing.
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:09.519
Everywhere I go, it's the same thing.
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:17.759
Sit in little groups, be quiet, wait for teacher, little basket of books that nobody ever seems to open, but they fidget with it a lot.
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:23.440
Grades done at night on the teacher's time, not much improvement.
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.879
Dude, everywhere I go, everybody teaches the same way.
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:36.240
I don't know if you remember the old uh Sylvester Stallone movie, I think it was Judge Dredd, where every restaurant was Taco Bell.
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:38.720
Yeah.
00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.320
That's kind of what school is.
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:48.480
And for the culture of teaching to be so narrow makes it impossible to be its best.
00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.759
And notice I didn't say ineffective.
00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.879
There's kids that do well in school, there's kids that take AP classes and go on to college and do really fancy things.
00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.399
But I'm talking about success for every kid.
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.240
School is not built for that.
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.440
And that's why we're not getting those results.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:15.919
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00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.360
So do you think so?
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.120
Here's my here's my theory, right?
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.039
And by the way, I do have I do have your notes.
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.480
I do have the the notes for finally shared with me about your background.
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:52.399
So um, but my thing, and this is what I, as an administrator, I kind of like it drives me nuts.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:01.840
Doctors have to have continuing education credits, lawyers have continuing education, it's correct, accountant, but education.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.160
Try to be an accountant from 1974 right now, Joe.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:06.880
Right.
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:09.039
It's not you're not gonna do it.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:14.799
Now your math skills might be great, but you're gonna get eaten alive by the business of it.
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.720
You don't know how to send a fax, and you're trying to use email, right?
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.759
So it's not that your math skills are bad, but like you don't tax code has changed, you know, tax shelters are changed.
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.119
All those things have changed.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:35.440
And in teaching, we just kind of remain monolithic and we're not that worried about what people outside of education are doing.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:42.160
I even we're like almost to a point where we're anti-learning.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:46.400
Like we're teachers are kind of a ghost element.
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:51.200
We so ingrained that it's starting to feel like it's going backwards.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:51.839
Right.
00:17:52.000 --> 00:18:02.960
And I don't, I uh so like there's there's obviously a disconnect in colleges with teacher prep programs that they don't adequately prepare kids, prepare students to become teachers, number one.
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.559
There's a lack of well, but there's a little bit of it that's a more insidious.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.559
I don't mean to cut you off, but this one's important.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:17.359
There's a group of teachers who have a mistaken personal identity with what teaching is.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:24.960
And the analogy I use is I have a whole bunch of friends that are teachers, and quite a few have told me that they've done something like this.
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:31.920
They would put all their stuffed animals on the bed and they'd set up an easel and they would teach the stuffed animals.
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:34.799
And they thought that was so cool when they were a kid, right?
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.799
That doesn't translate to a classroom.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.319
You got 30 people in there.
00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:44.400
They have needs, they have fears, they have hopes, they have desires.
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.200
You can't just tell them to be quiet all day and teach them like they're stuffed animals.
00:18:49.359 --> 00:19:00.240
So, yes, the teacher prep programs have a big part in this proliferation of this mindset, but there's people that bring the mindset before they even get to college.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.519
And I think it's really tricky because it it diminishes the individuals.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.720
So the teacher is the most important thing in the room.
00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:10.880
So agreed.
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:20.720
And schools don't adequately most school systems, their induction program is getting them ready for like HR and health insurance.
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.359
It's not really here's how we're there.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.279
A lot of them aren't going as far as this is how you're supposed to teach.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.079
So nothing, nothing gets nothing happens, basically, right?
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:42.319
So okay, so you've been over in over a thousand classrooms, you've impacted 70,000 teachers trained.
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:47.920
You you've had given keynotes, you've you've how do we how do we move the needle?
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:55.680
How do we change what what are we what is our goal to change the structural dynamics of teaching and learning?
00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.039
Well, that's what I've been working on for about 20 years.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.839
And the reality of it is that the culture of teaching doesn't want to hear it that much.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.519
There's small groups that do.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:17.279
From my perspective, there's a couple of things that we can change pedagogically, as long as we're willing to let the thing between our ears grow.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.680
Here's my first favorite thing, Joe.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.000
Everything in a K8 classroom moves too slowly.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:24.640
Everything.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:25.279
Everything.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:31.200
I've seen teachers take 10 minutes just to kid get kids logged into a GIMK or a way ground.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.559
Five minutes a day is 15 hours a year, Joe.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.240
We are wasting gigantic swaths of time.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:41.920
That's my first biggest one.
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:43.759
Everything is too slow.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:50.799
And what we tell the K3 kids a lot of times, this is the cliche is wait for teacher, wait for teacher.
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.680
And it takes 20 minutes to get kids logged into a typing program.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:05.519
And so instead of teaching them to have a tempo and a flow, I want you to imagine a kid every day that's trying to go and being told not to.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.000
And what does that look like after eight or nine years?
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.000
It looks it looks worn out.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.480
So that's one of my first biggest things that we do, poorly or incorrectly.
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.200
Another one that I hear a lot, and I know you've heard this one, Joe, I've said it myself in the past.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:22.079
Ready?
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:30.720
If you don't do this now, you'll have homework tonight.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.720
And you gotta put yourself in the mind of a 12-year-old.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:41.599
So you're saying I can talk to the cute girl now and do my work tonight.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:46.799
So you're saying I can talk to my buddies and do the work tonight.
00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.440
You know what?
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.039
I'm gonna say yes to that.
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.359
And then what happens in real life, Joe?
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.079
Procrastination.
00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:59.519
Well, I like then they don't do mine as a mine as a high school teacher.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.559
Is I'm doing my work.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.039
I'm doing my work.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:05.359
Dr.
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:05.920
Sr.
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:09.119
Special, I'm doing my, or just give me, just give me my work.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.319
I don't need like I'm in, I'm I'm doing, give me my work.
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:13.440
I did my work.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:31.119
And it's like, so the 60-minute, the 90-minute, the 30-minute, the 40-minute lesson, whatever happened, the learning that happened to class can be summarized in I give my kids something, a piece of paper, and that is adequate enough for missing an entire day of instruction.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.200
Yeah, I agree.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:34.799
So let me get this straight.
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.680
In an hour, I'm gonna talk for 30 to 40 minutes.
00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:39.119
I'm gonna be very entertaining.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.759
I'm gonna hand out 12 question worksheets, and then the kids are gonna do it.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.119
And that's proof of learning in a modern world.
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.240
Negative.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.440
Negative.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.400
The second thing, so so the problem.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.319
So the first thing was the tempo.
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.799
And the second thing was the open-endedness.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.160
So I run my class more like a CrossFit training.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:01.920
Everybody, let's go arms.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:02.960
Let's go arms.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:04.000
Let's go arms.
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.119
Everybody, work the shoulders, work the shoulders.
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.000
And I say, Dr.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.759
Joe in the back, uh, that form's not good, but thanks for playing along.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:13.200
And guess what happens?
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.359
After a week or two, you get the routine, you get comfortable.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.599
Over time, your form gets better.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:30.160
And so one of the other massive things we do in education that is that is not helpful is we have got to give kids feedback real time.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.480
We've got to give them real-time feedback.
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.160
And here's why.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.359
Until they get real-time feedback, they're not gonna work because what's the point?
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:48.400
Um, in a classic high school class, okay, so what grade level did you was your favorite to teach?
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:50.240
What is your favorite to do?
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.359
Okay, I wanted to visualize a class, Joe.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:24:05.359
Hey guys, here's your textbook, your paragraph about the discovery of the new world is due at the end of class.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.319
What are your kids gonna do for 41 minutes?
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:13.519
Mess around.
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:15.359
Nothing, right?
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:24.720
Because they're teenagers, they think they're invisible, invincible, and then with nine minutes to go, they're all panicking to try to slap some crap together.
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:26.400
Right.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.039
Huh.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.000
So the way I teach and the way I've been teaching teachers to teach looks like this.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:38.400
Here is either textbook, printed page, or web page.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.400
Everything you need is on that.
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:49.359
I want you to write me two paragraphs about the discovery of the new world or Balboa or whatever, and you've got nine minutes.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:25:04.079
That means I can have the kids done with the assignment and graded within 12 to 15 minutes, which means I can do three more assignments in the 45 minutes that are left over.
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:06.160
That's triple the work.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.319
If I said, let's triple your paycheck, you'd get excited about that.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:21.279
Now, the problem with tripling the work is teachers have a little voice in their amygdala back here that says, I don't really want to do more work because then I'll have to grade more work.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.400
And that's where devices and AI come in.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:32.559
So if you use a tool like Snorkel, which gives immediate feedback through AI, no copy pasting allowed.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:40.799
If you use class companion, which gives immediate feedback, no copy pasting allowed, you can use my short answer.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:56.160
The point is you get this rhythm going because now instead of hand in your stack of papers at the end of class and I might grade them tonight, I might grade them this weekend, it looks like this.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.319
Write those paragraphs, and I'm gonna tell you how the AI did in nine minutes.
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:10.000
Oh, by the way, Joe, you can answer two or three times if you like, because I don't want kids just turning it in for a D.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:11.839
I want them to do it right.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.480
So, like here's another little pivot.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:20.799
In Snorkel, which if you haven't seen is fantastic, there's a four-point rubric from the AI.
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:28.079
When you turn it in, your grade could be a zero, a one, a two, a three, or a four.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:36.160
And what I train teachers and my own kids that I'm working with a zero's a zero, a one's a zero, a two's a zero.
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.799
I'm not accepting those scores because the AI will tell you what to fix.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.440
And if you're confused, I will walk over and help you.
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:47.519
But here's where it gets cool: if you get a three, that's an A.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:59.519
And if you get a four, which is nearly impossible, I shouldn't say impossible, um, you got to work at it to get a four because the AI in snorkel is inflexible.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.599
And um, if you if you so if you get a three, you get a 90.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:12.960
If you get a four, I'll give you an extra 10% for being willing to try at least once more to improve your score.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.079
And Joe, we're graded before we leave class.
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:28.400
Whereas, you know, what happened with Lucy Calkins and the workshop model was think about your idea for a whole week.
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:39.519
So meanwhile, my kids are writing a paragraph a day, your kids are writing a paragraph a week, you're spending all weekend grading them, and then Monday going over them.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:41.359
It's not efficient.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:43.119
It's not efficient.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:48.480
In my class, we're doing five paragraphs a day or a week.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:54.160
In 10 weeks, my kids will have written 50 paragraphs and your kids will have written 10.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:56.799
Well, not even close.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.759
You you you're striking at something that is core at like what we do in my company.
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:03.039
I mean, what I believe in.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.440
First off, you know, the adage of whoever does the work does the learning, right?
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.400
So I read, I I saw a book.
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:11.279
I have a book.
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:11.920
I should say this.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.759
I have a book that says never, it's the title is never work harder than your students.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:16.640
Never read it.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:18.960
I got the idea just the title.
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:19.680
Never.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:20.559
Yeah.
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:21.680
Right.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.039
I've done that a few times.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:26.400
I see you see like a picture of a quote and I go, I get it.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.440
I don't need to read the book.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:28.079
I get it.
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:28.799
Right.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:40.000
So, but it really came to fruition of like, you know, I can I I I taught IB history for my longest tenure in Virginia in a 90-minute block class.
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:44.480
And the first year I tried to lecture my way through that, and I was freaking exhausted.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:45.440
Like, it is impossible.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:46.559
Yeah, that's obvious.
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:55.599
And having kids actually do the work, having, and that's we created iteration cycles of them writing and giving feedback.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:06.720
So you that's the whole idea of how we do test prep in our company is it's really like you already know you've you've sat in a classroom all year, you've gotten your content.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.640
Right now, you have to do reps.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:17.119
What's standing between you and the score you want is the amount of reps you can do, times, and like you said, with feedback.
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:24.160
Most feedback that feedback is so delayed from getting to the test.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:24.880
Yeah.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:30.880
And then you take a test, and then a week later you get it feedback, and then, oh, I can't make any corrections to this.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.640
This is what I got, moving on.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.200
Right.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:41.680
Learning what you're doing, and what you're doing is analogous to letting third graders double dribble in the basketball game.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.079
You have to stop that behavior.
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:49.279
It's analogous to having a fourth grader pick up a soccer ball during the game and they're not a goalie.
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:51.039
Everybody loses their mind.
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.759
There's things you cannot do, right?
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.039
You just cannot.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:30:00.079
Here's another edge of protocol, which is, you know, that's kind of our thing that we do.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.839
Here's another one that I really like, Joe.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:04.640
Ready for this?
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:15.279
Normally, and when I say that, everywhere I've ever seen, first quarter, the genre that we write in might be narrative.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:16.400
Sounding familiar?
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:18.720
First quarter, practicing narrative.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:22.079
They might do two essays or three.
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.400
Second quarter, we move on to compare, contrast, or argumentative.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:31.759
Again, they might do two or three essays, a lot of practice.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:36.000
Third quarter, classically, informational literacy.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.039
Okay.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.599
And then fourth quarter, we do poetry.
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.599
Well, first of all, there's five genres, but we only did four.
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:49.599
And we only did four because it wasn't symmetrical.
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:54.079
In our type A brain, we're like, well, I've got five quarter, four quarters.
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.160
How do I shove five things in?
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:04.240
So this is one that uh I created, and then Josie Wozniak, who if you haven't met, she's fantastic.
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.799
And so watch what we do now, Joe.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.519
We'll give kids a funny picture for the start.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.880
One of the classics we use as a car at Kate Mart that's overloaded.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:14.480
Watch what we do, though.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.559
Write one paragraph about this in narrative.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.640
Write one paragraph about this in compare contrast.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.960
Write one paragraph about this in informational literacy mode.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.759
We're asking kids to do three genres at once.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.240
And that's why, guess what?
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.480
I don't do test prep.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.039
I know teachers that do 10 weeks of test prep.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:40.319
I don't do test prep.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.920
The whole year is test prep.
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.279
We're always test prepping.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:51.440
And when we show kids that protocol, which our fun name for it is the triple genre challenge, three genres at once.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:54.640
Think of this functionally how it's a totally different animal.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.960
We're gonna do narrative all year, Joe.
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.440
We're gonna do compare contrast all year.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.319
We're gonna do informational all year.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:12.799
And if I do that in snorkel, it'll grade all three paragraphs in real time, which means 10-year-old Joe could take three tries until he gets a four.
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:14.480
Because I'm not taking a D.
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.079
I'm not gonna take a D.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.359
You got to do it right.
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:18.640
Here's the feedback.
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.319
And the great part is if you pick good pictures, the kids laugh their heads off.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.640
They think it's the fun, funnest thing ever.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.359
And so that's the way that the Edger Protocols goes after this problem.
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:36.559
You just make a couple tweaks on the lesson plan, you know, abandon ship on the type A, one thing per quarter.
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:40.880
And now, to be fair, I could emphasize one a quarter.
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:44.240
Like I could emphasize a narrative, but I'm never gonna stop.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:49.200
And then next quarter, I could emphasize argumentative, but I'm never gonna stop.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:58.960
And what happens is when the kids get to the big tests, the state test or the IB or the AP, they can code switch like crazy on genres.
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:04.240
They can write on demand like nobody's business because I've immersed them in that all year.
00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:11.599
And my quote about that that I love I love, I ran into on the internet was uh wet man does not fear the rain.
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.519
And I just don't think we're training kids at that level.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:20.240
I don't think we're immersing them enough.
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:29.680
We do little small blips of things, and then I don't know if you've ever read the book The End of Average by Todd Rhodes, but it is fantastic.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:43.440
And uh he talks about the idea that school wasn't built for kids to actually grow, school was built so that the kids who were willing to do the work that the teacher demands went to the next level.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:45.920
That's not the same thing as every kid growing.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.680
And I think subconsciously teachers don't realize that they've bought into that strategy.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:34:02.480
Now they won't tell you that to your face, but when you look at the gradebook, and when kids say, What if an F, uh what teachers say, what if an F is the the grade they deserve?
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:10.559
And when teachers say, I can't teach these kids because they have bad parents, so at what point are you abandoning ship on your own shit?
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.880
And my perspective is that yes, there are troublesome parents.
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:24.960
I got 19 years in the classroom that are crazy, pushy, tigery, weak-minded uh teachers, uh parents that lie about teachers.
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:26.000
Yeah, that's all true.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:27.840
But here's the deal, Joe.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.280
I've got them for six hours a day.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:43.519
If I can't solve that problem with the kids in six hours a day, and the parents only see the kids for an hour a day, how are we supposed to do better than the parents with six times more?
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:45.760
You build your culture.
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:53.760
Those same kids are fine on football teams, soccer teams, they're fine at science camp, they're fine everywhere.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:59.920
They're bad in class because we're not leading them in the way that they need to be led.
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:01.440
That's why they're bad in class.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:06.159
They're bored, they don't respect the classroom, they don't respect the situation.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:09.519
But then you see teachers that do things like countdown charts.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.159
Only 100 days till we're out of here, you guys.
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.320
What's the teacher telling the kids?
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.079
Here's how I start the classroom every year, Joe.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:26.800
Hey, I'm gonna treat you guys with respect because 25 years from now, I'm gonna meet your kids.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:30.159
When you tell sixth graders that, they lose their minds.
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:36.559
15 years from now, you're gonna call me and say, What's the best Macintosh to buy?
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.320
Nine years from now, you're gonna say, Krupo, I graduated from college.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.239
Will you come to see me?
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.800
I've been doing this long enough, you guys.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:49.519
I know that this is a potentially lifelong friendship that we're gonna be building.
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:52.000
And I'm gonna treat you with that level of respect.
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:53.519
And you know what's insane?
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.960
When you tell the kids that, they respond in kind.
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:07.119
What would you say to parents out there who are like I've adopted one of my students and I've performed weddings for three.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.280
I am not screwing around when I say this.
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:11.440
That's that's you know what, you know what's funny?
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:12.400
I am now old enough.
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.760
And I'm not a minister.
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.880
They made me do one of those$39 things.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:31.039
I have a student that uh like I used to meet up with a couple of graduated students after we moved back to Pennsylvania and meet up around Thanksgiving, take some to lunch, and with my wife and the ones I stay connected to over the years, track them through college.
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:37.039
I had one invite us to her wedding a couple years ago, and now she's actually moving to Pittsburgh, which is really cool.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.639
So yeah, and you know what's the coolest is if they show up at your school as a teacher or a sub, that's fantastic.
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:43.280
Yeah.
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:48.400
We have a couple of those in the schools that I've worked in that they're generationally passed down.
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:56.960
I've I've got another uh call to action for anybody that's on TikTok or Instagram and they teach they see teachers bemoaning the state of things.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.400
And I'm trust me on this, I'm a fantastic complainer.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:02.639
Things are not perfect right now.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.559
School is underfunded.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.519
I freaking hate standardized testing, it's ridiculous.
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:12.400
They're turning it into college prep when what we need is a basic skills test.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:16.159
That's what school should be, is a basic skills test, not an AP test.
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.880
If you're in IB, they have a test for you.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.360
We don't need to run everybody through that, right?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:36.639
I got my complaints, but I had a superintendent once, I was in front of about 200 administrators, and the superintendent said, John, how do we get more kids to think teaching is a good profession, especially students of color?
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:40.159
How do we get more people of color to adopt this?
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:45.679
Uh to this was my answer off the top of my head, and I'm gonna stick by it.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:52.639
You know, maybe if we weren't complaining about the kids all the time, maybe it's it looked like we enjoyed school.
00:37:53.199 --> 00:37:56.480
Maybe, maybe those kids would say, you know what, that looks cool.
00:37:56.719 --> 00:37:58.559
That's not what we're putting out there, you know.
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.239
We're putting out that kind of Eeyore vibe, like, oh, it's Friday.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.199
I got so much grading to do this weekend.
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:11.840
We aren't we aren't positioning our profession as something that's cool or interesting for adults to do.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.800
True.
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:16.880
Teachers don't start off that great payroll-wise, but you know what?
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:21.679
You do it for 10, 15 years, you're up on the hundred thousand dollar range in a lot of situations.
00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.320
It'll take care of itself if you're good.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:27.599
Well, and it was a profession.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:33.840
Like when I before I even went into college, well, I should say, I was in college.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:39.519
Before I really got into the field, I looked at some of the teachers that I knew.
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:43.840
They had a good what we call a middle class life, like a good life.
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:48.880
Like they had a nice house, they lived in the school district they taught in.
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.679
They had the had the middle class life.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:57.039
That is, you know, with so many other issues, that's kind of gone away.
00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:02.960
And we have piled so much onto the classroom, onto the teacher without really taking things off.
00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:10.639
But you know, you're kind of getting into the heart of what a a classroom and learning environment should look like.
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:19.599
Well, what about what would you say to a parent that's hearing this or listening to this or seeing this, and they're like, What do I look for?
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:21.360
What do I look for in a classroom?
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.800
What do I need to know?
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:28.239
Um so in my case, I'm gonna have a non-standard answer for you there, Joe.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:29.119
Okay.
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:35.840
Classically, parents are looking for academics out of the school, right?
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:37.599
They look on U.S.
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.039
News World Reports, who are who's got the highest scores?
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:42.559
Does that sound familiar?
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.679
Classically, and my angle's different.
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:53.280
I I would say I would rather have a school where they see my kid for for what they are.
00:39:55.519 --> 00:40:00.800
I would say I would like to have a school where the teachers are invested in my kid as a person.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:09.039
And here's the fact of the matter academically, if you're motivated, you can exist in any class.
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:15.280
So if this kid really wants to learn, it's totally doable.
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:26.800
But the number one thing they can have is a teacher that broadcasts empathy, interpersonal communications, supports your child, to me, those are way bigger.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:40.880
And again, I speak of this from the point of view of I had a kid that transferred into my class during COVID, and he had been his imagine a fifth grader that had been bullied to the point where he is having suicidal ideation.
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:49.840
Fifth grade from the cool district, you know, the the academic high-performing district.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:55.519
He showed up at my school wearing pajama bottoms and yellow crocs, and we accepted him for who he was.
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:04.400
And he actually tripled his academic performance, but also turned into a full-fledged human being with friends and relationships.
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:06.400
And I've tracked his progress.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.920
He's a junior in high school now, and he's the lead drummer in a rock band and also sings.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.199
That is a long ways from where he started.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.320
And I had him doing plenty of academics in my class.
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:24.960
We wrote essays, you know, we did projects, we don't, but the biggest thing he needed was a person who could lead him.
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:36.719
And I and I don't think you're gonna find that in a school that's only about academics because it becomes a little bit sterile because they say things like, Well, yeah, well, that's a tough family situation.
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:38.000
I can't really help it.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:41.920
I've got him for six hours, I can fix it.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:56.800
So you see it um non-academic, which is which is interesting because I would prefer to say intangibles and durable skills.
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:03.679
What I'm getting framing one is you have, I guess we can kind of go black and white.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:10.639
You have schools that probably the more affluent are focused really strongly on the competitiveness and the academics.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:14.000
So there are parents there are super engaged and worried about that.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:21.599
Well, I don't see that there's there's there's problems with that too, Joe, because have you listened to the Sold a Story podcast yet?
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:22.559
Hmm.
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:25.280
No, it's a fantastic thing.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.400
It's the thing that got Lucy Calkins removed at Columbia.
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:32.639
And honestly, I think why do we put so many eggs in her basket?
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:35.440
She has three years in the classroom.
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:40.559
Tell me the magic she figured out in three years that we should all be following.
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:44.159
Second, and I and I want to clarify this one.
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:53.360
I don't know this for a fact, but my understanding is her degree is actually in theology, which could be good for education, but why is she telling us how to teach?
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:54.320
I don't get it.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:43:05.440
And so, in that sold a story podcast, which is fantastic, if you like a like a really good murder mystery podcast, it's got that same really highly produced vibe.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:13.760
But there's a scenario where one of Lucy's employees decides she thinks, hey, this teaching thing is cool, and I'm gonna help change poor schools.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.679
I'm gonna go and work in poor schools and I'm gonna make them better.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:32.639
And she her plan was that she was going to go and work in these poor schools, I mean, in rich schools, for three years, and then take everything she learned from working at the rich school and do it at the poor school.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.480
Good plan, right?
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.119
Why don't we just teach the same way as the rich school at the poor school?
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:40.480
Here's the problem.
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.119
Here's the problem.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.480
The poor schools were already teaching exactly the same as the rich schools.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:54.960
You know what the difference was, Joe?
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:56.000
What's that?
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.199
When your kid isn't learning to read at a rich school.
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:02.960
You tell the parents that he needs a tutor.
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:13.840
And when your kid's not learning to learn to read at a poor school, the teacher says, I don't know how to help him.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:20.480
It's it's still a pedagogical failure.
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.719
And I always think of it this way: everybody's born with the same hardware.
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:30.079
Our brains have equal capacity, no matter the color of our skin, our income.
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.079
We can do things.
00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:39.119
And when we start looking at poor schools and saying they're underperforming because of their parents, that doesn't make any sense.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:40.639
They're underperforming.
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:49.039
You know, the president of Hong Kong grew up in a house with a mud floor, and he's the, I believe, the current president of Hong Kong.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:50.719
That is not a thing.
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:54.400
That is a mental limitation that we're putting on kids.
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:58.000
Oh, yeah, well, only a few of you will go to college.
00:44:58.239 --> 00:44:59.360
Why is that?
00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:01.599
Well, it's because of the mindset we have.
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.400
And I I really worry about that piece.
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.880
Uh I see teachers saying, they want more engagement.
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.599
I'm not here to entertain kids.
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.320
They're not the same thing.
00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:17.760
Entertainment does not mean engagement.
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:21.360
These are the same teachers that'll have kids watch a whole Disney movie.
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.039
I guarantee you they are not engaged in that entire Disney movie.
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:30.079
In fact, I've quit showing videos in my classroom that are more than about three minutes.
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:36.880
Because the fact of the matter is the stuff I can show in school is not nearly as good as what they see outside.
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.840
So I gotta, I gotta do better than that.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.840
John, I can't believe we've almost come up on an hour already.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.480
I am joining this conversation, but uh we do have to kind of wrap it up.
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.280
But before we do, because first off, thank you for coming on.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:55.119
Thank you for sharing your story.
00:45:55.280 --> 00:46:04.559
First off, for anyone listening out there, educator, parent, teacher, student, even, if they want to learn more about you, where should they find information?
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:06.159
Oh, this is my favorite thing.
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.840
Just Google me, John Caripo.
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:09.760
Your Google feed will be slammed.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.079
You can also go if you want to be more surgical.
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.719
You can go to edgeprotocolsplus.com.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:17.360
That's where we uh share all of our goodness.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.360
Our books are available on Amazon.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:21.760
There's even an audiobook of one of ours.
00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:28.559
And then one of my things I'm uh famous for in my own mind is free lifetime tech support.
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.880
So I am more than happy.
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:37.519
If anybody's listening and they say, John, I like it, but I don't know where to start, you send me an email, I will get you there.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:46.800
Because I believe some group of teachers has to go first in this shift of being student-oriented.
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:49.119
And here's just one more little zinger for you, Joe.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:54.320
When we're in school, we are being taught John Dewey, right?
00:46:54.559 --> 00:47:01.519
In college, it's constructivism, human uh humanity, experiential, all that stuff.
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:06.079
As soon as you're a paid teacher, you switch to Horace Mann.
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.920
And it's Rose and it's impersonal.
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.239
And here's just a litmus test for any teachers that might be listening.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:21.280
Joe, if I hired you to be my football coach, would I hand you a Pearson football box?
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:26.000
It's lunacy.
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:28.880
Can you imagine?
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:31.039
You're my new music teacher, Joe.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.599
I want you to use Amplify Music Program.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.280
You better be on activity 16 by week four.
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:38.480
No.
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.599
The football coach tells the principal how the game is gonna go.
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:49.360
The band teacher tells the principal how the fall concert's gonna go.
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.840
The FFA teacher tells the principal what they're doing.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:48:00.800
And yet, when you hire me to be an English teacher, I say, What program do you use?
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.400
Dude, I tell you how we're gonna teach English.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:07.360
Like, you don't need to buy me a book or a box.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:08.239
I got this.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:13.920
We're gonna be doing Heroes Journey, we're gonna be doing archetypes, we're gonna do all 36 literary devices.
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.360
I'm gonna have every kid in my class writing three paragraphs by September.
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:19.039
I know how I'm gonna teach.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.880
And I think that's missing in teaching.
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:24.239
Teachers, you know, they have a mindset that they're very independent.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.000
Crazy part is they're independently all doing the same thing.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.639
Well, that would be like saying, I have the best Taco Bell on the planet.
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:34.559
Bro, they're all Taco Bell.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:37.039
There's not better or worse Taco Bells.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:38.800
It's just Taco Bell.
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:49.840
So when you come into teaching and say, I'm gonna do this the same way as everybody else, but have better results, you zoom out and think about that statement.
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.000
You can do everything the same way and have better results.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:55.679
Illogical.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:00.960
Well, John, I appreciate it you coming on.
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:02.239
Um, I hope you'll come back.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:06.960
We'll we'll get maybe deeper into a couple topics more next time.
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:13.679
I would love to see if your listeners have questions and we can we can follow up on some of the things I talked about.
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.199
I've done all the things I'm expressing.
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:21.599
So when people say, I don't know about that, I will tell you exactly how it's gonna work.
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:25.840
Oh, by the way, Joe, when I went back and taught during COVID, what was everybody yelling?
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:26.639
Learning.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.599
Learning loss, right?
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:33.760
Everybody's screaming learning loss.
00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:42.639
During COVID, my language arts students, their scores doubled from 23% passing to 48 during COVID.
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:47.199
My math kids went from 9% passing to 41.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.519
As a profession, we should be able to do that all the time.
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:53.599
And I was doing it during COVID.
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:00.559
So, what is going on with this profession where we can't get kids to move forward?
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:05.679
At some point, we got to back up and say, how can I approach this problem differently?
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:18.079
And my funniest thing of all is, I'll bet you 40% of the teachers in the United States have an open and fixed mindset poster on their wall, and they don't even really understand what they're what they're putting up there.
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.719
I I 100% agree.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.119
I think mindset's really holding us back as a society, but also an education.
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:32.800
So, John, yeah, thank you so much for being on it, the podcast, and uh we'll see you guys next time.
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:33.840
Thank you.
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.920
Thanks for joining us on the supported learning podcast.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:46.239
If today's conversation inspired you, challenged you, or sparked a new perspective, be sure to subscribe and share with a fellow change maker.
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:52.800
We'll be back soon with more voices, more insight, and more ways to elevate the future of learning together.
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.800
Until then, keep learning and keep pushing the conversation forward.
