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Speaker 1: Whody who Glamour Girls. You're listening to Stradio Lab rewind.
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Speaker 2: Once a month we will be re releasing an old classic Stradio Lab episode to refamiliarize new listeners with the lore that built the podcast. The government cannot shut down.
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Speaker 1: Because we recorded some of these long long ago. The audio quality may be mixed, but trust the ideas are eternal and dangerous.
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Speaker 2: So take out your notebook and open to page one, because it's time to start taking notes about the things we've said.
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Speaker 1: Okay, enjoy the past. Bye. Podcast starts now.
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Speaker 2: Wow.
00:00:57
Speaker 1: Hello esteemed listeners, and welcome to Stradio Lab. We are so thrilled and honored that you are spending your let's say Wednesday at three pm listening to us, whether you're driving in your car to your next appointment or your home naked from the only bottom, naked, wearing a shirt Winnie the poo Stye.
00:01:22
Speaker 2: Recovering from your former appointment, recovering from your former appointment, walking around the house fully erect sure, going into the kitchen making a grilled cheese out. You got some hot oil on your bare bones, if.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: That is you, and we know you want to turn us off, but we appreciate you sticking with us through the pain, through the tears, through the crying and the screaming.
00:01:47
Speaker 2: Just focus on our voice. Focus on our voice, and not on the physical pain you feel from the scalding hot oil you accidentally got on your bone, on your bone, on your butt bone that you got while making a grilled cheese. And because you were fully erect, your penis sort of knocked over the pan and then the hot oil went onto your bone.
00:02:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if we're if this hasn't happened to you, Just so you're clear, what happened to one of your fellow listeners is their penis knocked the pan pan that was full of hot oil making a grilled cheese. That pan hit the ground, causing the oil to splash up and hit their bone.
00:02:28
Speaker 2: And for that listener, I have one message, and it is that you know it works better if you put may on the bread.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, not cooking tips. Well, if you can hear our voices, uh yeah, we sound weird today. Yeah, and by weird we mean better, better, more calm, more professional.
00:02:49
Speaker 2: And it's because we're back in Hell's kitchen.
00:02:52
Speaker 1: Letting the spirit run through us. And yeah, you know, whenever we're in a studio space talking about the podcast. When we make the podcast, it does make us sort of act like we're pretending to do a podcast, which is weird because most people this is where they go to record a podcast. But for us, it always feels like, oh, today we're playing dress up to they were playing podcasters.
00:03:12
Speaker 2: Strange well, especially because we're in Hell's Kitchen, which is where all gay men work in marketing. Yeah, you know, when we're doing it over zoom in our apartments, wearing sort of a ripped band tea. You know, it's punk rock, it's they you know, we're sort of it's like it's Courtney Love giving a middle finger to the camera.
00:03:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so Courtney Love.
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. And whereas now we're sort of it's more Kim Gordon, but like appearing having a meeting a better brand partnership. Not Kim Gordon during Rockstar era.
00:03:47
Speaker 1: No, it's Kim Gordon appearing on NPR.
00:03:49
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, and it's like, yes, she's talking about her punk rock days and you know, and listen, we love Kim Gordon. You know. You know she's slay. You know, she has slate in the past. In the moment when she is wearing fully like a vintage blazer in a studio on NPR. That's not the most she's slayd No. But also I'm not here to say when she slayed the most. I'm here to just say that she has slaved right and not rank the moments to ten.
00:04:18
Speaker 1: I'm not BuzzFeed.
00:04:19
Speaker 2: I sort of want to know, like, how much does someone have to slay in order to slay for life?
00:04:26
Speaker 1: How much does someone have to slay in order to slay for life?
00:04:28
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this because this is this is going to date when we're recording this. But you know, today Gwen Stefani had a sort of embarrassing moment in the press. Have you seen this?
00:04:37
Speaker 1: Uh huh?
00:04:38
Speaker 2: And Gwen Stefani is someone who, regardless of anything she did during that era, you know, when she was in no doubt she was slaying. That's something we have to acknowledge. I would acknowledge that she was slaying within no doubt. And so how much how many years does she have to go not slaying to in order to no longer be someone who's slaves?
00:04:58
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of people like this, like this is literally the arc of fame and where it's like how how good do they have to be for you to forgive them being bad? Bad bad?
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Speaker 2: And I almost think I mean to bring a sort of back to Kim Gordon. It's almost like and Patti Smith is like this too, like almost the best thing you can do is, as soon as you realize you're no longer slaying, just keep reminding people of the time you did. Because maybe Gwen Stefani's issue was that she kept trying to slay in different ways and at some point you're gonna run out of ways, you know what?
00:05:30
Speaker 1: Yeah you're saying, like she her thirst for sleigh was like too insatiable that she ended up tearing herself apart.
00:05:36
Speaker 2: Right, And at this point, when I think when Stefani, I don't picture her wearing the you know, bikini top from the Hey Baby video?
00:05:44
Speaker 1: Uh huh, what do you picture?
00:05:46
Speaker 2: I honestly picture her like with Blake Shelter, I was gonna say the same thing. I picture her on the Voice or whatever show she's on. I picture her honestly. I picture her literally getting interviewed by Jimmy Fallon.
00:05:57
Speaker 1: Oh remember when she slaid?
00:06:01
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:06:04
Speaker 1: Wow, Like, how do you like? I actually think it's funny. When we started this podcast, we recorded in person, and we were almost doing I remember doing like fake like podcast references, like I'd be like, what's up, what the fuckers? Yeah, and pretend like play, pretend that now that I'm here, I'm sort of like I'm having an identity crisis. Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: Well it's suddenly the kunst is me.
00:06:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I've returned to where I was meant to be the whole time, but it feels different.
00:06:35
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it's sort of like when someone I'm trying to think, who is someone known for being a gesture, for being someone who makes fun of the culture, but then suddenly they find themselves being awarded by Barack Obama.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, Sure, that's what we are.
00:06:50
Speaker 2: You know what It reminds me of Actually what when like like when Eminem won an oscar, Sure, and it's like it's a losing battle to try to then win an oscar wearing like a basketball jersey or to win an or like sort of do a speech as though you are both outside of it, and then you have to either commit to ignoring the oscars and releasing a statement that says I'm minem goddamn it. And I only want to write songs about committing violence against women, and I hate the oscars. But if you're gonna go there, you sort it's sort of embarrassing if you don't go all the way. So now that we're in a studio, I'm like, the only way, the only way out of this is to be Terry Gross. You know what I mean?
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, we can do that.
00:07:39
Speaker 2: So George, Yeah, when did you know that you were going to be a podcaster. From a young age, I learned to speak and I would do this thing where I would listen to my own voice, and as soon as it became aware of object permanence, I realized other people can't hear my voice. Only I can.
00:07:58
Speaker 1: So you've talked to other interviews about your mother trying to silence you. Tell me what that was like.
00:08:03
Speaker 2: Yes, she would uh when I would cry, she would say, stop crying. I mean, And that stays with you, that that's something you cannot forget. You know, it's a it's it's a way in which mothers of a different generation didn't realize that when you're when a baby cries, it's because it wants to be a podcaster.
00:08:25
Speaker 1: When a baby cries, it's a cry for help for a podcast setup.
00:08:28
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, it's I cry for help for a podcast set up. And it's also an empowering cry that says here I am.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: It says what's up? What the fuck is?
00:08:36
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know what she's She's come such a long way. And now when I go home and I start crying like a baby as soon as I as soon as I enter my parents house, I start crying like a baby. Google Gaga. I sort of throw bread against the wall, I open the fridge and and just start throwing things away. I'm I'm, I'm fully naked, running across the house, around the room, up and down the stairs. And now she knows, and she says, good for you. Yeah, that must feel really good. It feels really good. And it's gotten a lot of work to get there, you know. And yes, I've gotten the authorities involved. You know. For a while, when she kept saying, why are you doing this? This is so inappropriate. We have guests over, I would call the police and I would report her for creating an unsafe home for her children. At the time, I was twenty eight years old. Yeah, but you know, everyone has to learn their lesson. Yes, to give a book coming out correct. Yes, and it's about my relationship with my mother, and she does not like it.
00:09:40
Speaker 1: She's like an accept you as a podcaster, but as an author. I don't think so, honey.
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and you know, yes, the book is a children's book with pictures, and it's marketed towards children. And yes, the pictures are in fact erotic. No, yeah, yeah, But to me, I'm like, okay, no one has ever done this before. People have written memoirs before, people have written books of humorous essays that are called like that's My seat, But no one has ever done a children's book of erotic queer photographs of themselves.
00:10:15
Speaker 1: No, that's true. I let me finish.
00:10:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, dedicated to their mother. Sure, well that's really powerful. That's all I have to say about that. So I think I'm ready to move on to the next portion of this evening.
00:10:29
Speaker 1: Well, I think maybe we should invite our guests.
00:10:33
Speaker 2: In and talk about someone who slays.
00:10:35
Speaker 1: If I was someone who's slaying and actually doesn't need to remind us that they're slaying because they're slaying, I feel like this guest, I'm almost like, well, ever, since I've met them, they have been slaying.
00:10:44
Speaker 2: And the fact that there could be some point in the future where they stop slaying and then we have to sort of grapple with that as a community fills me with so much fear that I can't even think about it.
00:10:54
Speaker 1: I mean, that is the downside to slaying is that sometimes it creates a when the other shoe drop feeling like if someone's not slaying, you're not worried about them stopping sla I know, well, this is the sort of like catch twice. Well, I don't know if catch it was the right, but let's just run with it. Okay, Well, this is so this is a catch twenty too. Is that sort of a sophie's choice?
00:11:13
Speaker 2: This is a sophie's choice? This is you know, it's sort of like maybe the solution is to never slay to begin with.
00:11:24
Speaker 1: Well, isn't there a saying about that it's better to have slayed and flopped than to have never slayed at all?
00:11:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true. I sort of think it's a it's a it's a very capitalist impulse to not slays as a form of self protection, where You're like, well, what if I flop? Mm hmmm, Whereas it's more communist to try to slay knowing you might flop and trust that the social safety net will catch you when you fall.
00:11:56
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, sure that makes sense to me.
00:11:59
Speaker 2: So anyway, please welcome Sabrina.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: Wo Hi everybody.
00:12:03
Speaker 1: So Sabrina, before we started recording you, we said, be careful, we're going to do a ten minute intro, and you said, no, that's totally okay. The first part of a podcast is always the most excruciating. How did you feel about that?
00:12:15
Speaker 2: Yeah?
00:12:15
Speaker 3: You know, I actually feel better than usual?
00:12:17
Speaker 1: Wow?
00:12:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah yah yeah no, And I really mean it.
00:12:24
Speaker 1: No, I believe you.
00:12:25
Speaker 3: And if anything, I was just like, I mean, what was so painful is like I just wanted to jump in right so much like congratulations on your book.
00:12:32
Speaker 1: I think.
00:12:33
Speaker 3: I hope, I hope you get a cattle cat a Newberry Award.
00:12:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, I need it.
00:12:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, but do you know what I'm talking about this?
00:12:42
Speaker 4: I do know what you're talking one for the art specifically, Okay, you know I.
00:12:46
Speaker 2: Did all the illustrations myself or in the photography and the illustrations.
00:12:49
Speaker 3: Oh you illustrating.
00:12:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, well so it makes media, Well it makes me.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: It's these really beautiful black and white photographs, charcoal photographs, yes, charcoal photos. And then on top of them, I did a sort of Perez Hilton white white, little Duncum dots. Yeah. Yeah, well that's what makes it a kid's book.
00:13:11
Speaker 3: It's sort of fun, right, and I love it when it's like we it's actually like a picture within a It's like, yeah, you're looking like at a desk that they the photo is, and then there's come.
00:13:20
Speaker 2: U yes exactly. And each book was made by hand from scratch, which is why it was sort of expensive to produce, and I'm in a lot of debt because of it. It's not these are.
00:13:31
Speaker 3: Why did you make so many?
00:13:33
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why'd you make one million? All on your own?
00:13:36
Speaker 2: Well, because I wanted to be a best seller. What am I going to do sell one book?
00:13:42
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:13:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you know, the holidays are coming up just around the corner, around the corner, so you know, if you're looking for a way to celebrate what's in February or March Valentine's Valentine's Day, what.
00:13:57
Speaker 3: A perfect gift to your child.
00:14:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, for Valentine if you want to give your child the perfect Valentine's Day gift, give your child the erotic book that I wrote containing my nudes.
00:14:10
Speaker 1: You actually bring up an important point, which is did you ever get like presents? Like did your parents give you something on Valentine's Day? No?
00:14:19
Speaker 2: That sounds sick and I am publishing in an appropriate children's book.
00:14:25
Speaker 3: No, in fact, by I don't know if my parents are big president givers. The only my dad tried my freshman year of high school, and he was like, he gave me a ping pong paddle, which.
00:14:36
Speaker 2: But you didn't have a ping pong table.
00:14:38
Speaker 3: No, we did, but racially charged given that we weren't really and nobody think you wanted some bonding time and then and then a neon green like sweatband like like.
00:14:50
Speaker 1: Pro oh he doesn't want to work out.
00:14:53
Speaker 3: He doesn't really do not, but but I think you want to be a look good.
00:14:56
Speaker 2: Oh well he was sort of like, I mean, it's honestly pretty considerate to be like, well, if they're gonna play ping punk, they might as well.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I remember getting things and no matter what it was, I would feel shame. I'd be like, oh my god, my parents aren't in love with.
00:15:11
Speaker 2: Me, Like they literally got you Valentine's Day, No, like like candy ego or like like I remember one time they gave me like a bag for like my track shoes. You know.
00:15:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. It wasn't like fancy. It was just like here's a thing, because it's a it's a special day.
00:15:24
Speaker 2: Well, here's what I'll say about Valentine's Day as someone who that's right, grew up in two different countries. Something that always shocked me about Valentine's Day in America is how the kids were made to write each other Valentines. Oh yeah, yeah, what a strange tradition in my opinion, Like you just write little How did it work? You just wrote little cards that didn't even have anything. It was just like from Sam to George and then gave it to your classmate.
00:15:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was mostly like we're friends.
00:15:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like heart themed.
00:15:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like taste and there was like it was mostly like a heart themed Halloween. Like it's just like kind of candy exchanging. And also it's sort of popularity contest because at a certain age you don't have to give it to everybody, and so then you're like oh I got one hundred Valentines and then it's like, oh I only got ten. It's like, well, better next year, learn to make a splash. Yeah, fifth grade's kind of hard. Grow up.
00:16:21
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did it still happen in and fifth grade?
00:16:23
Speaker 1: I actually feel like it did. Oh interesting, Like I think it like went till middle school.
00:16:28
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:16:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was like institutionally supported.
00:16:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's what I was like.
00:16:33
Speaker 3: I don't think fifth graders were like, if you were really into it, that's really.
00:16:37
Speaker 1: I wasn't really, I wasn't obsessed with it. I just knew I'd existed for you. How was what was your feeling towards them?
00:16:45
Speaker 3: I was, well, I think I think my school had a policy where you could not bring, Like you couldn't only give to some people. It was for everybody. And and I think I even I have like, ah, I never remembered to bring anything for anyone. It was like a big like I take, well, that's never really give.
00:17:01
Speaker 2: That's kind of a power move though.
00:17:03
Speaker 3: Thank you, I mean to get yeah, and all the other social suffering.
00:17:08
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just sort of crazy to think like that you were forced by the powers that be to give a Valentine to like someone who may have bullied you or someone who you disagreed with politically.
00:17:17
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was what's that toxic positivity where they're almost hoping that it would like make everyone get along and be like if you can just just give them a card. So it's like thinking of you.
00:17:28
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, it is sort of like, you know, it's it's poly inclusive. It is you know, everyone is in love with everyone in fifth grade. You're Valentine's is such an individualistic like either we're in a couple or you're not. Sort of holiday as soon as you turn eighteen. But it's nice than for a while there we all just lived in a sort of you know, uh Swedish commune.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: Yes, it was very beautiful.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:17:51
Speaker 3: Yeah I love my fifth grade polyicule.
00:17:53
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I'll never forget any of them.
00:17:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. Well anyway, Sabriena, how are you?
00:18:02
Speaker 3: I'm great? This was this was the highlight of my day. Oh my god, the vocal point of it.
00:18:06
Speaker 2: So that's incredible.
00:18:07
Speaker 1: That's incredible. So George, you're right now, Do you want to talk about that?
00:18:12
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we're cutting that. We can pivot to me yeah, would that be so crazy?
00:18:21
Speaker 3: No, no, And it's not because I didn't give enough no no.
00:18:23
Speaker 1: No, no, no no.
00:18:24
Speaker 2: It's because Sam asked the forbidden question. And the fact, you know what we'll do is we'll beep it and then we'll just like reference it as the forbidden question.
00:18:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I guess I first want to apologize for asking the forbidden question. Yeah.
00:18:34
Speaker 2: Well, there's only one topic that is off limits on this podcast.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and it's tough because you know, we're sort of like you said, punk rock Lower east Side nineteen seventy CBS, and I thought, okay, so I can say anything, and you know, George is doing you know, boners, burning bonex and and and the children over and stuff. And I was like, okay, let's see what else. See where else we can push the envelope here.
00:19:03
Speaker 2: To me, everyone can have one forbidden question. Like it's I'm trying to think of like, you know, like celebrities that don't want to talk about a specific thing. It's like you, if you're Tom Cruise, your one thing can be that you don't want to talk about scientology.
00:19:19
Speaker 1: But that's it.
00:19:19
Speaker 2: You can only have one forbidden question.
00:19:21
Speaker 1: So where he should ask him about a sexuality.
00:19:23
Speaker 2: We should exactly. Yeah, And if he doesn't want us to ask about a sexuality, then he has to talk about being a scientologist. You can have it both ways.
00:19:30
Speaker 1: Wow, do you have a forbidden question? No, we're not allowed to ask a definition. I don't know if they will be able to.
00:19:37
Speaker 3: No, I'm an open book. You can't ask me anything you want.
00:19:41
Speaker 1: That's a trap.
00:19:42
Speaker 3: No, I'm serious. No, I'm serious, Like, ask me anything.
00:19:46
Speaker 2: What do you think is the worst question one of us could ask?
00:19:49
Speaker 3: You can't believe you asked me that. Oh my god, Oh you know what? Yeah, to be honest, like if you ask me what my thoughts are on real presentation? I actually like glitch out and like like spiral.
00:20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah what I and I hate to now harp on this what sort of specific like uh, part of the representation conversation? Would you be most unwilling to talk about craft? The worst possible question? And we won't we won't look, we won't ask it back. It's sort of like like you're in a podcast. Two white gaze are they're just like us but uglier? Yeah, exactly, two white gays that are just like us but uglier and sort of inside and out and dumber.
00:20:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like, Okay, you know what it's sort of like if I am an actor, is making like representation for my own like groups that I'm a part of, like really like good for the world and like morally significant like as a like does it make like me like an amazing person?
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Right?
00:20:56
Speaker 3: If I'm like But it just depends like Okay, do you know what I'm saying? Just sometimes it's just like a little Okay, I feel like I'm being crazy, you're crazy vibrating to me.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: To me, the question is like and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe this is not what you're touching on. But it's like there's a way to frame those questions where the only possible way to answer feels self important and moralistic. So it's almost like the person setting you up for a trap where they're like, do you feel like the work you do is important? And you can't be like, well no.
00:21:29
Speaker 1: But you also can't be like actually really important, right.
00:21:33
Speaker 3: Totally yeah, yeah, yeah, right?
00:21:35
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying a little bit a.
00:21:37
Speaker 3: Little bit of that, And That's what I'm saying when you ask me this.
00:21:40
Speaker 5: I've become completely incompra But I actually love that, And actually that is a better reason to have a forbidden question than something you actually don't want to talk about, Because I agree with you is that the topics people are most interesting interested in often are the ones that have the most nuanced and therefore the ones you don't want to talk about in like a live podcast format.
00:22:01
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's very save it for the book, save it for the book exactly. I Have you ever done something sort of interview based and then asked them not to release it?
00:22:16
Speaker 1: No? I have really? Wow?
00:22:19
Speaker 2: I did greta Titleman's previous podcast. It was called The Worst I believe, where you talked about like the worst moment of your life, or like a bad moment of your life or something, and I talked about like the nitty gritty details of a breakup. And I got home and I was like, what was that?
00:22:43
Speaker 1: Like?
00:22:43
Speaker 2: In what world did I think I would then feel comfortable with that being like in the Apple podcast app Life? And I texted Gret I was like, I'm so sorry, like, absolutely, don't release that.
00:22:54
Speaker 1: Wow? Was she okay with it? Yeah?
00:22:58
Speaker 2: I mean listen, maybe behind my back she was dming, you know, texting every other member of the Brooklyn comedy scene and was like, this dumb thag, George doesn't want me to release this episode. But no, she was incredibly nice about it, and I think it's like you know, and thank god she was, and thank god because now I sew it as a book.
00:23:18
Speaker 1: Yay. Do you guys want to know my forbidden question? Yes? Yeah, it's where were you on January sixth, twenty.
00:23:30
Speaker 2: Wow?
00:23:31
Speaker 1: And with that, should we do our first segment? Yes? We should? Wow? Okay, Sabrina. Our first segment is called straight Shooters, and in it we ask you a series of rapid fire questions to gage your familiarity within complicity and straight culture, especially this thing or this other thing. And the only rule is you can't ask any follow up questions.
00:23:58
Speaker 2: Great, okay, Sabrina. Gentleman's Quarterly or Lady Marmalide, Lady Marmalide.
00:24:09
Speaker 1: Drag him okay, Hulk Cogan or Cat Cohen.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: God, that is an incredible question, okay, Madam X or mister Magoo mister okay?
00:24:25
Speaker 1: Your chosen family or your chosen financial plan at Morgan Stanley.
00:24:29
Speaker 2: Anything but chosen family, okay, Sabrina. A gendered happy meal toy or a rendered image of what New York would look like with more inclusive urban design.
00:24:41
Speaker 3: Chosen happy meal, So.
00:24:42
Speaker 1: I can say it, Okay, Lost air Pods or The Last Airbender.
00:24:50
Speaker 3: Oh, Last Airbender?
00:24:52
Speaker 2: Okay, Friday the thirteenth, Sunday, Bloody Sunday, or Wednesday now streaming on.
00:24:58
Speaker 3: Netflix, Wednesday streaming on Netflix.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Okay, Puss in Boots or Venus in Furs.
00:25:07
Speaker 3: Oh, Venus and Furs.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: Why not?
00:25:10
Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy that there's a children's character named Puss and Boots.
00:25:15
Speaker 1: I know, I know, there's a sort of.
00:25:18
Speaker 2: Way in which this is a sort of horseshoe theory of gay culture and children's culture, where it's sort of like Puss and Boots could either be like a really inappropriate drag queen, or it could be a cat wearing boots. Yeah, and thank god's the ladder, and thank god it's the latter, Otherwise I would have to vote Republican. Wow.
00:25:44
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say, I think you did incredible. I think I'm gonna say nine hundred doves.
00:25:50
Speaker 2: We rate each guest on a scale of zero to one thousand doves, and I agree it was a nine hundred doves performance.
00:25:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a cool confidence there.
00:26:00
Speaker 3: Nine hundred doves. Yeah, when where did I lose the other one hundred doves?
00:26:04
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, do you want to hear the critique or yes?
00:26:10
Speaker 2: Yes, Sam, you can go first.
00:26:13
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, you had sort of a knowing confidence, and we really loved that about your performance. But there was sort of a dismissiveness to the questions that we just worked so so hard on. And yeah, so I felt like that was sort of where we docked some doves.
00:26:34
Speaker 3: Well, that wasn't the tone I was trying to strike. I was really trying. I mean, I really respect you to you know. I even listened to a couple of episodes.
00:26:44
Speaker 2: You know, Sabrina. It's like, we gave you nine hundred doves, which is a very good score on you know, there's no denying it.
00:26:51
Speaker 1: There's not a perfect score.
00:26:53
Speaker 2: It's not sorry sorry, but you know, to focus on the negative like this and and and suddenly make us justify our score that we selected completely arbitrarily on our podcast.
00:27:08
Speaker 3: This is why you're never gonna slave. How do you think I've gotten this?
00:27:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you know, I do think there's something about being complacent and I think a lot of times, sometimes I'll be like, oh, it's good. You know how people are like practice gratitude, like be happy for what you have, Like what if that's wrong? Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I love my like little Bushwick apartment and I love my like simple life.
00:27:31
Speaker 2: No, it's like you have to.
00:27:35
Speaker 1: You have to leave that apartment as I need to like go into like major debts that I have to work really really hard to get out of it. And I do want to say one thing about your performance, Sabrina, is that the fact that you I'm now realizing the fact that you challenge the nine hundred doves sort of makes it a thousand doves. That's true because I think the fact that you knew not to challenge us when we told you not to ask questions, but then as soon as that part of it was over, you immediately were like, well, I want I want to see the paperwork, I want to see the receipts. Why didn't I get a thousand? And then we honestly didn't have a good enough answer for you. So the fact that you exposed us for the frauds we are means that you are winning a Pulitzer Prize. In journalism and at the prize is a thousand ups.
00:28:16
Speaker 3: Wow, this is like, this is actually a really importan lesson all the children who are listening.
00:28:20
Speaker 1: No, it's true.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: In high school, I used to, you know, just like be really negative on myself every time I you know, got like a nine out of ten on a you know what I mean.
00:28:28
Speaker 1: I'd be like yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker 3: But then there were always a bunch of kids that would go back to the teacher and be scary, just like the way I was too, really scary. And then the next thing, you know, they have a four point three.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: GPA messed up.
00:28:39
Speaker 2: It's really like, honestly, one of the most important lessons in life is to know when to challenge authority and when to sneakily not challenge authority so you can build up more challenging power later on. If you had sort of responded to each one of our straight shooters with like fuck off, then at the end, at the end, you would have no more leeweight like, we would have no more patience for your challenging and you would have no leeway to challenge your score, which would at that point be like sort of a hundred.
00:29:06
Speaker 3: Is sure every time you asked me a question. My brain was like not now.
00:29:09
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, because you were like, what if later I will need to challenge right, exactly.
00:29:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean to be honest, if you had responded to every single one yelling at us fuck off, I would have to stand. Unfortunately, that's true.
00:29:21
Speaker 2: I mean it's really tough because we are, on the one hand authority figures. On the other hand, we ourselves are kind of Kim Gordon, So it is difficult when we respect the challenging of authority. So it's always like my challenging authority, you're in fact pandering to us.
00:29:35
Speaker 1: I do think we create a toxic environment by like we reward people being bad. Yeah, and we actually need to reward people who are being good.
00:29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you ever been in it?
00:29:46
Speaker 3: I'm so good.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you would do well as an authority figure?
00:29:50
Speaker 3: No, I actually like actively like avoid positions of authority, like.
00:29:55
Speaker 1: And you've been asked, oh all the time?
00:29:57
Speaker 3: No, well not later in life, because but I think like when I was like in high school and college, I was especially high school, I was always like, let me be captain of the team. But I was dropping yeah, like I was dropping balls left and like not like basket.
00:30:11
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like you know, like metaphors metaphorical of course, oh the.
00:30:15
Speaker 3: Team dinners, like you know, if there, if I didn't have, like if there wasn't so much like you know, you need to So I thought I sound like such an ass.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: You know you do not sound like but there's like.
00:30:25
Speaker 3: A lot of pressure, like everyone should be a leader, everyone should be leader. Yeah, it in your hand, and you're like, okay, like I don't think I should be a leader, but I'll do it because that feels like who I'm supposed to evolve to. But later in life I've been like, yeah, I just fail everyone around me every time I do it.
00:30:39
Speaker 2: I guess this is such a rich topic, and I honestly think like leadership could be a straight topic on the podcast. But yeah, it's almost like what replaced religion when society became secular. It's this obsession with leadership. It's like if Jesus is dead, someone else has to step up.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: I mean leadership also in business goes so hand in hand.
00:30:59
Speaker 2: But yeah, but also when you were a teen, did you have sort of like leadership camp or like leadership I mean I never went to one, right, Yes, I remember seeing those, it's like the best thing you could be told at twelve years old is that you're a leader, not what are you leading? What if you're leading like QAnon, what if you're literally leading the charge to for the insurrection?
00:31:22
Speaker 1: I mean I bet a lot of them were twelve year old leaders.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yes, I mean certainly cerebrally. It's just like, it's very it's crazy that the fetishizing leadership. I mean it's the same as fetishizing like business success, where it's like, well, okay, a at what cost B to one end? Yeah, those are the forbidden questions and our society. Wow.
00:31:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very like okay, but leading what like yeah it don't want to lead anything?
00:31:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll have the like they did sort of within the framework of leadership off or something for those who were not leaders, and it was you know, what's even more powerful than being a leader being the first follower.
00:32:01
Speaker 1: That was like wow, did they say that?
00:32:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a big thing. It was like and they even have this like viral video. I'm butchering this, but in my head it exists as there's a bunch of sheep and.
00:32:14
Speaker 4: Like one sheep goes this way right and but it takes the second sheep for then the rest of the sheep to you know what I mean, like anywhere.
00:32:23
Speaker 3: That's the idea was like anyone can be a leader, but to discern, you know who the fascinating at least, that was like sort of the sort of you could I think that kids were.
00:32:35
Speaker 1: First taste maker, first sheep is taste making?
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Wow? Is it okay?
00:32:40
Speaker 6: Now?
00:32:40
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that. Am I against the first? Am I against the tastemaker's sheep?
00:32:45
Speaker 1: Like?
00:32:45
Speaker 2: Do I think that's a sort of toxic framework? Or do I actually love that? Because if the tastemaker sheep is queer coded in fact, don't you think like the leader, the leader is straight, The leader is Barack Obama, but the tastemaker sheep is you know, will I am writing the Obama song? No?
00:33:05
Speaker 1: I think I mean as unfortunately I idolize the tastemaker sheep. I I you know, I remember following the taste maker sheep on Twitter in like twenty twelve and just being so influenced by tastemaker sheep and you're sorry. So I feel very like I just hope to someone that I am the tastemaker's sheep.
00:33:24
Speaker 2: I know, to be the tastemaker sheep actually is such a powerful position in culture I'm not realizing and talk about like to go back to the conversation about slag, It's like, at some point the tastemaker's sheep loses their taste making abilities, like they either get too old to be in touch with the culture. And I'm not saying that in an ageous way, but just sort of like they get out of touch. Let's say, Yeah, they snap and become reactionary, or they misunderstand their own position and think they're a leader rather than a taste maker sheep, and so they start making like merch and it's like, well, you just run an Instagram account that curates tiktoks.
00:34:04
Speaker 1: And so okay, yeah, that's where the taste maker sheep starts falling off for me, the Instagram accounts that just curate TikTok and I think that.
00:34:12
Speaker 3: The framework would then say, you know, well those are the third, fourth, and fifth followers.
00:34:17
Speaker 2: Those are not followers, so an instagram So an instagram that creates tiktoks can never be the tastemaker sheep. That's sort of fourth, fifth, six.
00:34:26
Speaker 3: I don't right, because yeah, you're right, that's already viral.
00:34:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that is.
00:34:31
Speaker 1: Very that's really true that there's literally like the one million sheep.
00:34:34
Speaker 2: Okay, so so it goes leader, Tastemaker, Curator.
00:34:38
Speaker 3: The more we're talking, I'm sure this video wasn't of sheep and I, but.
00:34:43
Speaker 2: The way the way it has been cannon now for it might as well be years.
00:34:47
Speaker 1: No, like the merchant is being made.
00:34:49
Speaker 2: The idea that you think there was any going back from.
00:34:52
Speaker 1: This is like, I'm actually seeing all the sheep, and honestly, I'm realizing that it's kind of a danger because we're going to be having our listeners counting sheep in their head and they can't be falling asleep.
00:35:02
Speaker 2: No, And it's you know, it's like leader taste Maker curator, Leader taste Maker Curator.
00:35:06
Speaker 1: You're having the sheep. They're like, okay, so there's seventeen sheep in the creative world.
00:35:11
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but not to go back to children's books. This is a genius idea for a children's book, and it actually like so perfectly describes our contemporary society like to have. It's like the three sheep. One is a leader, one is a tastemaker, one is a curator, which one do you want to be? And each person has it's the three personality types.
00:35:30
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is going to end up in like it's going to be a company personality. Yeah, it already feels very Meyers Briggs.
00:35:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Wow. Wow.
00:35:39
Speaker 2: Do you respond well to things like that where it's like there are three types of people? There's four types of people there, Like, is that something that compels you?
00:35:47
Speaker 3: It's something that like, all right, honestly, like if I take an if I take a little bit about all I will be doing that for.
00:35:51
Speaker 2: Twelve hours taking sure.
00:35:53
Speaker 3: Sure, but it's not like I'm I'm sort of always like, oh no, I'm glitching out again. Maybe this is a forbidden question. I'm like, it's just sort of like, you know, I can never talk about feeling like, I mean, there's some true then it's also totally like fake and this that you're you're telling a machine right, and then it's spitting back exactly what you've just told it and reducing what you right said.
00:36:19
Speaker 2: But even like not a test but sort of a framework that is your like the idea of introvert versus extrovert, where it's like you get your energy from being around people, where you get your dreaming alone or the idea or even like astrology, like you know, is it like a comforting thing to put yourself in a box.
00:36:35
Speaker 1: I have the most embarrassing tale, okay regarding this, which is you know this podcast. Like I said, it's edgy, it's punk rock, it's nineteen seventy CBGB, Debbie Harry and I we've always mocked sort of people that really lean into the introvert extrovert thing, and it's sort of been like, yeah, we get it. But recently I was around people for a long time and I physically got sleepy in a way that was like, oh, like I think I'm I think I'm an introvert.
00:37:08
Speaker 2: I've always sort of thought you were an interviewed.
00:37:10
Speaker 1: And this is shocking to me because I was like, no, I don't even I don't believe in it like everyone's everything. Yeah, And now I'm like, oh no, I believe in it so hard and I actually think I know where I fall.
00:37:22
Speaker 2: Do you want to know what was a game changer for me?
00:37:24
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:37:24
Speaker 2: Sorry, go ahead.
00:37:25
Speaker 3: I'm just actual feeling bravee. I'm feeling like your first follower through this. Yeah that I actually also recently really started to identify as like an introvert.
00:37:35
Speaker 1: Wow, really needed.
00:37:37
Speaker 3: It to like not feel like crazy, and especially like in comedy, there's totally yeah, way way too much, like there's way too many social dynamics and like something about being like, oh, I really like just who I am. My natural baseline is not the same as these other people and I it's just like it's nice you don't like beat yourself up about like totally whatever.
00:37:59
Speaker 1: No, I think that's true. Vulnerable moment.
00:38:02
Speaker 3: Wow, well cringe a little bit.
00:38:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's okay.
00:38:06
Speaker 2: I recently had a moment of deep connection to something. I read a categorization schema that I read and this is in the book Pure Color by Shila Hetty, and it sort of starts out in it it's almost like you're reading a biblical fairy tale or something in the beginning, and it identifies three types of people bears, birds, and fish. The birds see the world from a remove and they're sort of like the cultural critics of the world. They're like not making you know, intimate personal connections, but sort of seeing the world that are removed and making grand esthetic and you know, artistic judgments. Then there are the fish, which are sort of like they care about social justice. They are they care about everyone equally, and they care about equality and things like that. And then there are the bears, who would develop personal connections and they sort of can care deeply about like one to four people, like they develop like intimate connections. Hmmm, And I was like, this is actually a better framework than a lot of the things out there. Would you say you're a fish, bear or bird?
00:39:13
Speaker 1: I have no idea, I'm I'm I'm still mulling it over there.
00:39:17
Speaker 2: Well we can check in at the end of the episode.
00:39:19
Speaker 3: You don't think that, Like, wait, which one's the one that has no close friends?
00:39:23
Speaker 1: So which one's a loser?
00:39:25
Speaker 2: But bird is like imagine liked Susan Sontag. She's like out a remove, She's like judging society almost like from outside of it.
00:39:34
Speaker 1: Oh interesting.
00:39:35
Speaker 2: But then fish are like want care about everyone equally and wants social justice and equality, and bears bears are like mother. Bears are like a really caring friend that like has you know, thrives in like intimate personal relationships rather than big picture Which one are you? I mean? I think I think I might be bird. This is kind of what's the scariest one, and it's really scary. I mean, I could see you as bird. That I mean, by the way I do develop intimate relationships you have, so I don't have friends. But it's sort of like I do feel like my instinct often is to like try to to a fault almost like try to think big picture and try to like I don't know, come up with a diagnosis for what I'm seeing.
00:40:33
Speaker 1: Sure, I see that this one seems This reminds me of the representation question a little bit, because there feels like no way to pick one without being self aggrandize one.
00:40:43
Speaker 2: Hundred Yeah, and because all of them are good. I mean, either you are an iconic cultural critic, or you care about social dresses, or you are like a really good friend, daughter, son, parent.
00:40:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:56
Speaker 3: I okay, Well, I have a reading on the fish one that isn't like I mean, I I don't not care about social justice. Sure, I'm not saying this is somebody who's like the most like you know, I would never whatever. Okay, but I think I am a fish in the sense that like I actually cannot like there are so many people I defend that I don't like that are not close to me yes, or that are even problematic, like like like controversial figures like within a community that everyone else is like you know, like I really think, like I think a lot about like is this fair? And like, uh really, I don't know, but I almost think.
00:41:30
Speaker 2: That's a bird impulse. Yeah, because you're like doing critical analysis, Like I feel like fish is simpler. It's like wanting everyone to be equal. It's like not caring more about someone who's closer to you than you do about someone on the street. Like it's a sort of equalizing thing. Whereas what you're doing, I think is is is like critical analysis. What do you think?
00:41:55
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:41:57
Speaker 3: I think I don't get what the bird is up to.
00:42:00
Speaker 1: Pick a back a lap? Why is the fish social justice? Like that seems like an oversimplification, Like I guess I'd have to read the book to sort of see how we got there. I think that could help inform Yeah, because the bird I get like visually, oh yeah, they're removed. Why they're seeing the world in this way.
00:42:17
Speaker 2: I think fish think of like a school of fish all moving together, you know, it's like more collectively minded.
00:42:22
Speaker 1: Oh okay, sure, I think I neither fish or bear, but I don't know which.
00:42:30
Speaker 2: Wow, I feel like such a bitch for identifying as a bird. Yeah, well your tweets say you are all right? Well should we get into our topic?
00:42:37
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:42:38
Speaker 2: So, Sabrina, Yeah, I would love it with all my heart if you would tell us what topic you have brought forth today for this episode.
00:42:46
Speaker 3: Sure, And I'm actually gonna try to move faster through my sentences.
00:42:50
Speaker 2: There is no reason to move faster or slow.
00:42:52
Speaker 3: I need to get a thousand doves on this whole.
00:42:56
Speaker 1: Sorry.
00:42:56
Speaker 3: Sorry, Okay, I did, I did come I I wanted to talk about homo eroticism.
00:43:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, m hm, I mean it's sort of the topic that it's sort of the umbrella topic.
00:43:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is essentially what this podcast is about. Yeah is that? So? What what led you to homrooticism? What was your way into totally thank you as a straight topic?
00:43:18
Speaker 3: Well, as I was like trying to come up with something straight to talk about, I was gonna like talk about anime and then like then my which I think is some people think of as pretty queer, but I have like I have a pretty strong like I don't I don't think so like interesting the women are have a very flat personality and the largest hits I've ever seen, even if they're the strongest fight Okay, yeah, yeah, right, So but the sort of pause is like, well, you know, it's very homoerotic, like a lot of these characters are sort of but it's like the fact that there is this sort of concept of homoot right, like if it were homosexual, that would be gay, but alas it's it's homo erotic. Yes, like it's the what we're saying is it's so close, but it's actually not. And who even wants that other than you know what I mean, there's even closeted, closeted that's for gay, like that concept and that's pretty homosexual.
00:44:18
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, am I making sense?
00:44:19
Speaker 1: No, You're making actually so much sense.
00:44:23
Speaker 2: It's the straightest thing you can be, because it is saying this is not it's literally no homo it's saying this is not gay.
00:44:35
Speaker 1: I love the making them mutually exclusive homo eroticism and homosexuality, I think is one very funny and two very I see the truth in that. The anime point about, like the women's huge tits and flat personalities, there is an element to that where it's like, were these made by gay men? Like oh sure, yeah.
00:45:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you you know, when you see misogyny out in the wild, you always have to ask yourself is this gay misogyny or great misogyny? Often the result, often the result is pretty similar.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like, well, she is slaying right, but did she wants to say?
00:45:15
Speaker 2: Is she a sexual object or is she iconic object?
00:45:22
Speaker 1: No?
00:45:22
Speaker 3: I think you're imagining these women like a little bit too powerful, like they are sort.
00:45:26
Speaker 2: Of like do you think Lara Croft is Lara Croft? Is she's an iconic object?
00:45:34
Speaker 1: She's iconic?
00:45:35
Speaker 3: Is she an anime?
00:45:36
Speaker 2: She she's a video? But I'm just thinking about other sort of like exaggerated fictional animated or animated adjacent women who famously have giant breasts. Okay, okay, homism, How would we define homorticism? I think maybe that's a good place to start.
00:45:58
Speaker 1: So it's two guys, two to four guys.
00:46:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be women.
00:46:06
Speaker 1: Okay. And this is the first time hearing of this.
00:46:08
Speaker 2: Like, Sam, women can be home erotic to one another.
00:46:19
Speaker 1: I'm listening and I'm learning, Yeah, okay, okay, So it's a group of people.
00:46:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just just to.
00:46:25
Speaker 3: Say, as a non minor person, non min ne people cannot cannot be erotic. It's never it's you're never lying. This is you'd be like, no matter where they lean, you're like, that's gay. That's really yeah.
00:46:39
Speaker 2: Well that's sort of how it's. In that way, you are breaking the ultimate bioneer between homeroticism and homosexuality.
00:46:47
Speaker 1: Wow, wow, something you think about, something to think about.
00:46:50
Speaker 2: To me, it's like it is the hint of everything, but antal it is like the hint it is. It is hinting at homosexuality, hinting at same sex attraction. Sure, sure, but is it something more than that?
00:47:08
Speaker 1: I mean, don't we refer to like those weird old Greek art paintings that are like two guys like truly going at it. Does that not kind as homoerotic?
00:47:19
Speaker 2: Well that's that is a very good question, because you do see actually like a truly three guys having full on sex. Yeah, And people are like, wow, this is so homorodic, and I'm.
00:47:30
Speaker 1: Like, no, I think more than that.
00:47:32
Speaker 2: That's actually porn.
00:47:34
Speaker 3: But try sweetie, it is straight people who are goingrotic.
00:47:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, exact, Oh yeah, god, that's true.
00:47:41
Speaker 2: Well Accusations of homoticism can almost be weaponized both ways, because straight people can look at something fully gay and be like, wow, I guess that's a little homerotic, and then they're like straight washing it. But then gay people can look at like, you know, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon and be like that's homorotic. It's like, well, no, you're like trying to make it get right. They're just friends. Yeah, I think, huh, we don't know, we don't know.
00:48:05
Speaker 1: Maybe that's their forbidden questions.
00:48:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is sort of like the fact that Ben Affleck's most lasting relationship is with Matt Damon, and then he keep he sort of is dating an iconic pop star Jennifer Lopez.
00:48:16
Speaker 1: It's kind of gay. That's really gay?
00:48:18
Speaker 2: Actually, Yeah, so.
00:48:22
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, thoughts on like queer baiting and how it that was like sort of my thought on the subway, like how it fits into.
00:48:28
Speaker 2: All of this talk about it forbidden question? Oh God, Like don't you think it is impossible? Like the idea the concept of queer baiting is one of those things that I don't think I could form a coherent thought.
00:48:39
Speaker 1: About the way that that is a circle always when people start talking about it and always.
00:48:44
Speaker 2: Like oh no, no, no, yeah, because my instinct to be honest is to almost be like that is sort of tumbler bullshit, and I don't and I don't care about it, Like it literally does not make a difference to me that Timothy shallow May is playing a gay person yeah or sorry, which I realized is like a different that's different than clear baiting, or that Timothy Schaumy is wearing a you know, bra on a red carpet, or Harry Styles or whatever.
00:49:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:49:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, But then of course someone does toe the line too much, and then I do become upset who tows the line too much? Not toes the line, but like I mean, I think Harry Styles is a good example. It's difficult to talk about this without while also being like, I actually don't like none of this is morally important. It's just annoying, don't you think like I think it is. I think you can be like it is annoying and it makes me roll my eyes when Harry Stoyles is like I've never identified as anything right when he's dating a little bit wild, But that doesn't mean I think he should be arrested No.
00:49:43
Speaker 1: I don't think he should be murdered. I think he should be allowed to put out more music if he wants to.
00:49:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the way, talk about homeroticism, I actually think I think if you're gonna queer bait, go all the way. Like I love that Bruce Springsteen like makes that with that forgetting his name if you know, you know, he makes up like a member of a male member of his band, like and it's like a thing that people know about and he will like kiss him while they're on stage.
00:50:09
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
00:50:10
Speaker 2: Or like, who's the guy from Arctic Monkeys Alex Turner? He has like this other group and they always are like being intentionally like caressing each other's like pecks on stage and it's like everyone knows about it and it's fun and they're like almost making out and I'm sort of like, well, that's that's fun, and that's more fun to me than Harry Style is just wearing a dress. Yeah, what are your thoughts?
00:50:33
Speaker 3: My thoughts are I also break down, but this one and not to be so serious, but like the the only thing that gives me pause because I generally also find it like annoying. It's just like I don't know, Like it's also a lot like to like what's what's the what's the alternative? Like given a world where like Harry is like even like gender queer or like, it's just like when you're that famous, I feel like the stakes are insane, And to ask somebody to be like overtly gay, it's like, oh, like I'm wind of like and that's why I break down. Well, that's why I just jumped shit from this question because I'm like, I'm not I don't think queer baiting conceptually is great. I just think that like like cueerbating in a vacuum is not great. But like pushing somebody to like never seem gay unless you're ready to fully commit to be openly gay, especially as like a world like in a world where there is so much like violence YouTube is scary. I'm sort of like, yeah, like do it, like does that make sense? Like the danger of crebating is like it's very hard to tell if somebody is queer baiting or just like trying.
00:51:41
Speaker 2: To maybe kind of yeah, as like a twenty four year old or whatever, yeah whatever age Harry styles is. Yeah, Yeah, well did I ruin this party?
00:51:50
Speaker 1: No?
00:51:51
Speaker 2: You didn't ruin it. You didn't ruin it. I think the I think we're at eight hundred doves. What do you think?
00:51:58
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think those I also, I mean we're people being like I don't know.
00:52:05
Speaker 2: But I think it's but I think it's almost like it's a class. It's almost like weird that we haven't discussed the concept of creerbating on the pod because it seems so relevant to our interests.
00:52:15
Speaker 1: It seems so easy to be like to come off as ignorant when talking about this, because I am. I am more like, ugh, like this is so annoying. Yeah, like like if you're gonna be gay, be gay, and if you're not, the not or like even say like I'm questioning or something like there is a label. There are labels for a reason, and some people like Harry styles, it seems like there's I don't know, it seems like there's some authentic part of him that like wants to explore something and I celebrate that and if not, then this boy cuckoo. And but then there's like who's really bad at it, like like Charlie Pooth, Like I feel like he's one that it's like he He's just trying to get gay guys to like it.
00:53:05
Speaker 2: Okay, that is so funny that you say that, because I prefer Charlie Pooth's brand of queer baiting, because what Charlie Pooth will do is just post a picture of his ass and then have a funny captain. It's like, well, there's my ass, whereas what Harry Styles will do is launch a line of gender neutral clothing for Gucci. And to me, I actually prefer Charlie Pooth just posting a photo of his ass like that actually feels regardless of whether he literally is a He's like sitting back there in his layer and is like, I'm gonna get these gay guys to press like on this. Even if it's completely inauthentic whatever, it feels at least fun and spontaneous in a way that like Harry Styles launching a brand of nail polish does not. Sure Sure, Sure that makes sense, And I feel like the best sort of like non gay you know, when I think of like prints, or when I think of like, I don't know other people that have played with gender over the years without necessarily be like coming out and being like I'm gay, It's that it comes from a place of like fun mm hmm, rather than a place of like calculated branding and profit and profit.
00:54:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you want to explore with your presentation or your sexuality, go for it. Yeah, but don't you make a damn dime until I'm rich, Sabrina.
00:54:40
Speaker 2: If you were to launch a brand that that that targeted the LGBTQ plus community, what sort of product do you think you would launch?
00:54:51
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh I would I would get lesbians like a hat that cannot go backwards?
00:55:03
Speaker 2: Wow?
00:55:03
Speaker 3: Is that okay to say?
00:55:04
Speaker 1: No? Yes? Well, this is always the question is how do you enforce that?
00:55:08
Speaker 2: Right? Well, it would start like making a noise when it was turning the other way.
00:55:12
Speaker 1: It would just be like maybe there's like a weight in it where it's like this, like you could spin it around as much as you want, but the bill always moves to the front. Oh my god. Yeah, like maybe it's like a magnet.
00:55:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, yes, it could be done with magnetic properties.
00:55:27
Speaker 3: I'm actually gonna do this in my life now.
00:55:29
Speaker 1: That's perfect. Oh, I think that's genius.
00:55:30
Speaker 3: And you agree, like there's something about.
00:55:33
Speaker 2: That is not our place to say, Sabrina and if that's how you feel, then absolutely, like make that and make that pronouncement on our podcast. But you're not going to trick us into agreeing with you that lesbian should not wear backwards hats.
00:55:45
Speaker 3: It's not even like that. It's and I'm look, I love every lesbian, not all equally clearly, but yeah, well you're not a fish, right, I'm unfortunately the bird.
00:55:57
Speaker 1: You're a bird.
00:55:57
Speaker 2: You're a burd in the sense that you're like, why are all these lesbians ring back?
00:56:02
Speaker 3: Well, it's just that I guess, like if I had to see my preference, like I prefer lesbians. Oh you know, well, I think of lesbians on on a spectrum, right, there are the best beautiful lesbians lesbians right.
00:56:13
Speaker 6: Okay, beautiful, Yeah, the spectrum lesbians in their reckwords hats who when I see them in the audience of a stand up show, I'm scared, like I'm actually scared that they will Okay, And then on the other side of the spectrum, a lot of them, honestly are It actually gets buyer.
00:56:35
Speaker 3: On this side. But it's like it's the turtleneck, big pants, oh kind of and I generally sort ofs not lipstick, no, no, no, there's in fact no lipstick, no actively chapstick, like it's that, but it's like it's it's the tumbr hoe but not even like it can be just more like more like a lit like a quiet meaning o versus like loud sporty.
00:57:03
Speaker 1: Got it right, it's Rooney Mara and Carol No? Is that the actress? Ye? Carol? Yeah, thank you.
00:57:14
Speaker 2: So you're you're saying Tumblr thought your words.
00:57:17
Speaker 3: I guess that's what I'm saying, Like Tumblr thought on this side, and I kind of don't really like.
00:57:21
Speaker 2: Already backwards hat on one side, Tumblr thought on the other right, and I'm.
00:57:25
Speaker 3: Sort of calling between both worlds, like in terms of like I love like, I don't like read a lot and that, but I did play like a lot of sports, like you know, but there's just something about like the backwards hat where I'm just sort of like, to me, there's a lot less like let's think about queering the world. It's a lot of like I love women, I love like, I love drinking my beers and like, and I guess it's or and it's not even like every lesbian with the backwards hat is is is like that, but they are perpetuating that culture, because that is a symbol, that kind of a hate symbol.
00:58:01
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, you like equal waits?
00:58:06
Speaker 3: Any other Uh well I don't know any other symbols.
00:58:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, you can't think of one.
00:58:15
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, I d bleep that out if you if you're a lesbian wearing a backwards hat, you might as well be wearing a.
00:58:24
Speaker 3: You actually have to cut that out, George.
00:58:26
Speaker 2: Can you just bleep it?
00:58:28
Speaker 3: Use their imagination about, you know, sort of what Yeah, came to my mind.
00:58:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of bleeping this.
00:58:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is really maybe we should advertise it even as like Stradio labs censored like never before.
00:58:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sabrina, do you feel like when a lesbian? I'm not even gonna ask how you're going to police that these hats only be worn by lesbians. I'm just gonna assume there's a framework in mind. But let's say they're only worn by lesbians. Is your goal for the person who wears his hat to then sort of of be led to self reflection? They try to turn it around, it doesn't go around, and then they're like, wait a minute, what am I trying to do by turning my head around?
00:59:08
Speaker 3: Exactly like when you try to turn around, it says things like don't say shoddy or don't like, don't like if you're what you know what I mean, Like it's it's actually specifically maybe for white and Asian lesbians, or like you know what I mean, like light skin lesbians cannot you know what I'm trying to avoid. It's what is that called? Like a hey, mama, lesbian? I want to it's not. It's not eugenics is I'm not like killing them? No, like I think there should be fewer. I think there should be fewer. And then it's not, that's not who lesbians are like at their core.
00:59:39
Speaker 1: You can put one of those types of lesbians in a museum totally and then the others will change.
00:59:44
Speaker 3: Just inside the glass with Noe's going to see this?
00:59:47
Speaker 2: But you know, you know what, ye oh, my god, my god. If I were to describe what Sabrina is doing, I would say, imagine the emoji that's biting his lip.
00:59:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that.
00:59:58
Speaker 2: Is sort of the vibe. That's the kind of lesbian vibe that you're talking about. Yes, I can picture it so well. And in fact, the biting of the lip is even more evocative than the backwards hat in some ways.
01:00:08
Speaker 1: I mean the way that you've painted a picture. I wish there was video. I feel I know this person you.
01:00:15
Speaker 3: Know yeah, yeah, well you know someone who used to be one.
01:00:18
Speaker 2: I used to you used to be the really.
01:00:20
Speaker 3: I mean, I was never a hey mom, there's no pard of me that could you know?
01:00:24
Speaker 2: Yeah?
01:00:24
Speaker 1: Did you say shoddy?
01:00:25
Speaker 3: No?
01:00:26
Speaker 1: No?
01:00:27
Speaker 3: But I was so close, like did I definitely wanted to. I was like, I want to ask my girl out to pro.
01:00:33
Speaker 2: Dance, and when she would like saying my girl or even like god forbid my lady?
01:00:38
Speaker 3: Right, Never my lady never said my girl out loud, but definitely thought that way, you know what I mean. Like internally, I was like, why is she going to problem with that guy? Like I'm just as good at sports as him, and and I I can dance like I'm so good at like you know, it's just like whatever whatever.
01:00:55
Speaker 1: Maybe she knew that he was a really good leader.
01:00:57
Speaker 3: He wasn't.
01:00:59
Speaker 1: I was like a later, Wow, I thought you were dropping balls. Oh my god.
01:01:05
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm like really learning a lot about how I does that happen to you? Where you're like as you age, you're like your conception of your earlier self, Like, oh, you talk, You're like, we I don't know what I think of how.
01:01:17
Speaker 1: I was like, it's hard to create a succinct narrative, and like we we talk about how we both think of ourselves as like we were really good boys, and so now we kind of feel like we can be really bad and be like, well everyone knows we're good boys, and it's like no, like it's kind of like you can slay and then you can stop playing. But yeah, for how long until people just in terms of being a good boy?
01:01:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah in the frame and the in a family framework, slaying means being a good boy. But I also, I mean, I've talked about this before, but to me, the episode of thirty Rock where Liz realizes that she used to be a bully when she thought that she used to be the victim. Do you know what I'm talking about?
01:01:54
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's like the first episode.
01:01:56
Speaker 2: Right, She like goes to her high school where you know, and she thinks that all these popular girls bullied her, but in fact, what happened was that she was so afraid of being bullied that she would like preemptively be like what's the deal with your mom's pill addiction? Like to the popular girl whatever, that's like one of the lines whatever. And I do I mean not to say that I was that bad, but I do think it was a form of self preservation where like, because you don't want to be the butt of a joke, you then speak out of turn and like make fun of someone or like think you're punching up, but it's like, well that is still a thirteen year old boy.
01:02:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but uh no, to answer your question, we know exactly who we are and we always know who we've been, and.
01:02:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, all narratives are linear.
01:02:43
Speaker 1: And yeah wow wow, well homeoticism, yeah, I actually think we like randomly got deeper than that.
01:02:53
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I'm trying to think of like what is the straightest Oh my god, wait, we haven't even talked about this. What talk about women in homerooticism. The epitome of straight homeoroticism is like the dorm poster of two girls making out, do you know what I mean? Like like or like the beer ad were the twins where it's like I love twins, like that sort of Sabrina.
01:03:18
Speaker 3: You look well, yeah, I guess I'm I just don't know this dorm post.
01:03:22
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so I think maybe you're like truly like a couple of generation younger, but like people listening know, there is a poster. It's a black and white photo of two girls. Two two girls very sort of like conventionally attractive thin girls in like underwear and like a tank with no bra exactly, and they are about to kiss or maybe in the process. I think they're making I think they're they're actively making out. But it's like that is.
01:03:51
Speaker 1: It was in like half of all dorm rooms for for like I think a decade.
01:03:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then of course, like to you know, it was.
01:04:00
Speaker 1: Like that in the pulp fiction poster like.
01:04:02
Speaker 8: Oh, that one is still around with the bananas or like think about or think about the Rolling Stone cover that was Blake Lively and Layton Measter licking an ice cream cone?
01:04:14
Speaker 2: Does that bring any bells? Not as many, but you can clearly imagine what I'm saying, Yeah, simply just the two of them both licking the same ice cream cone. All I'm saying is like men fetishizing lesbianism is the ultimate sort of homerooticism is straight.
01:04:27
Speaker 1: Of course that's true.
01:04:29
Speaker 2: Homoism for straight consumption, for straight consumption, and then for man what would it be?
01:04:34
Speaker 1: It would be the Abercrombie guy exactly in two thousand and three.
01:04:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, abercrom Againstwosan and three and also soccer players after they win, when they all are just like literally fingering each other, like why do they do that? It's actually insane, Like they need to stop talk about queer baiting. And we're putting Harry Styles on the cross.
01:04:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, put the UK soccer team on blast, like what are they doing in.
01:05:12
Speaker 2: Any final thoughts on home eroticism?
01:05:15
Speaker 3: No, just thanks, And I can't believe I missed such a huge topic, like.
01:05:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, I'm really excited about the launch of the hat.
01:05:24
Speaker 3: Thank you.
01:05:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait for that party.
01:05:26
Speaker 2: And we're we do operate an investment fund and we're looking for things to invest in, and we especially love queer creators.
01:05:32
Speaker 3: I think legally I could not make this hot without you, given that I will use patent magnet.
01:05:37
Speaker 2: To rare right, and that was our idea. Yeah yeah from the lab yeah literally literally wow wow, Okay, will you introduce our finals? I would be honored and overjoyed our final segment Sabrina is called shout outs, and in this segment we pay homage to a classic straight art form called the radio shout out Thank TRL think a radio more show. On Z one hundred. We are shouting out to something that is making us say, Okay, Sam, do you have one?
01:06:09
Speaker 1: Sure? What's up? Everyone around the globe? I love you, I see you, and I want to give a quick shout out to riding my bike. I have not been riding my bike as much recently. I blame the pandemic, and then I blame sort of leaving the house less generally. And today I met a friend for lunch and I rode my bike, just a short, little fifteen minute bike ride, and I said, this puts me in an incredible mood. I feel my mind is cleared. I feel in touch with the city of New York, and I feel like, yeah, I'm still rough and tumble. I'm still a guy who rides a bike somewhere and maybe a carl passed me and go hey, stop it, and I take up space in the road, and I'm happy to do it. I think that's why my ass the way it does, because of all those biking years. And I just want to say, I love you bike riding. You make me feel whole.
01:07:07
Speaker 2: Woo wow wow. I think that's why my ass looks the way it was. What are the hotter statements you've said on this podcast recently? Yeah, you know, sometimes you gotta lean in or lean back. I'll say, let's see, I'm trying to think of one. I know you gave me so much time, and yet I still am coming up blank. This is truly insane. This is the second time this has happened to me this week.
01:07:29
Speaker 1: You've got it.
01:07:29
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay, what's up everybody out there. It's your boy, George, and sorry for introducing myself as such. We'll have flaws. I want to give a shout out, respectfully and honorably to my favorite breakfast of choice recently, which is a piece of toast, cottage cheese, pistachios, and then cracked black pepper. I'm telling you, com mind this baby with a friend pot of Joe, and you are cooking.
01:08:04
Speaker 1: Wow.
01:08:05
Speaker 2: And I've already shouted out good culture cottage trees on this podcast, but at this point it was years ago. So for all our union listeners, go out there, get some good culture, cottage cheese, get some bread of your choosing. Get some shelled pistachios. I know it seems so glamorous and so expensive, but you have to treat yourself to shelled pistachios. Put a couple of them on. I'm talking no more than five to six, and then if you don't mind getting messy, sprinkle some olive oil on it. And if you are sort of on the go, just the black pepper will do. And then go about your day. I guarantee you you will get that big client, you will land that big meeting, and you will get that job. Why because you had a good breakfast.
01:08:47
Speaker 1: Whoo. I love that you're a breakfast freak.
01:08:50
Speaker 2: I'm not like a I know that when we were together in La famously, I kept having three eggs every morning. You were like so addiction. I know, and I do love making breakfast into an event. But when I'm working, I love just like that's sort of small. I mean, I'm talking one piece of toast, Like just like to have a tiny meal to just wet your appetite for lunch and know that in three short hours you'll eat again. There's nothing like it. Wow, are you a breakfast person.
01:09:19
Speaker 3: I am a breakfast person since that I love when I get I think that in the morning, I'm the most open minded. And the foods that I do think eggs are gross.
01:09:28
Speaker 1: Wow, but you.
01:09:29
Speaker 2: Don't like eggs.
01:09:29
Speaker 1: I mean I eat them, but they feel very gross. Yeah, I eat them.
01:09:34
Speaker 3: And it's just like I think the morning is a special time, like I think, yeah, it must be an enjoyable time to eat, because I'm eating the foods I would never eat past the hour of like toast, eggs, Yeah, yogurt, They're all kind of like.
01:09:48
Speaker 2: I've been. Really, I've been struggling Grandma so much. Like I I just am never in the mood for yogurt, you know what I mean. Not like that makes one of us anyway, you're ready, feel free to go for.
01:10:03
Speaker 3: It, Okay, I'm all right, Okay, Hey, so we're gonna loser. Hi, okay, Hi, I'm so so oh my god, there's gonna be a soundtrack underneath this, too hot.
01:10:15
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
01:10:18
Speaker 3: I have to shout out. I love all of my followers, but there's one there's one fan in particular that I have to shut up, mostly because actually, two and a half years ago. He said to me, if you ever get on Stradio Lab, there is this segment cold shout out, and it would actually mean the world to me if you shouted me out.
01:10:34
Speaker 7: He is somebody that I that I auditioned for many All on Guard plays he directed in college, and yeah, he casted me into the ensemble. He's so hot, but sorry, fellas, he's taken and he's so delightful.
01:10:46
Speaker 3: A huge fan of the Pond, Thomas Peterson. The shout out goes to you.
01:10:50
Speaker 1: Woo, oh my god.
01:10:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow, Thomas.
01:10:54
Speaker 1: Wow, unbelievable.
01:10:55
Speaker 2: That was incredible.
01:10:58
Speaker 1: That was amazing. Do you ever get like reminded that people actually listen to this podcast and go whoa not if I can help it, I'm like, how the hell did he hear about this?
01:11:07
Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's crazy. He got like all my everyone that I did like plays with in college obsessed with those podcasts. That's actually why I was like, I need to because people are gonna listen. To be honest, it feels like I'm auditioning again for a play, like I feel stressed.
01:11:22
Speaker 5: Well, let me tell you that this Sabrina, you got the row you booked, Thank you, thank you.
01:11:26
Speaker 2: Than Wow, thanks so much for doing the po I always love ending on a sort of self congratulatory note. Yeah, good job George, and good job to you. Well, thank you everyone for listening, especially good job job and to you. Yeah, and honestly, great job Thomas, because you know what Thomas is first sheep for sheep influencer, Sheep, Tastemakers Sheep. That's a tastemakers. Yeah, we have to go, but taste maker sheep is one of the most incredible inventions.
01:11:57
Speaker 1: That's the name of the hat company.
01:11:58
Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, and my challenge to everyone is spend just spend some time thinking about the sheep framework, because it's actually genius.
01:12:08
Speaker 1: Goodbye, goodbye podcast ends.
01:12:11
Speaker 2: Now for our visual learners, you can watch full video episodes on our YouTube channel and.
01:12:16
Speaker 1: Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a.
01:12:19
Speaker 2: Month at patreon dot com. Slash Stradio Lab.
01:12:22
Speaker 1: Stradio Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.
01:12:27
Speaker 2: Created and hosted by me George Severs and Sam Taggart.
01:12:30
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Jenna Cagel, co produced by Becca Ramos.
01:12:33
Speaker 2: Edited by Laurence Thump, and mixed and mastered by Doug Bain.
01:12:37
Speaker 1: Artwork by Michael Failes and Matt Grubb. The music by Ben Kling
Speaker 1: Whody who Glamour Girls. You're listening to Stradio Lab rewind.
00:00:19
Speaker 2: Once a month we will be re releasing an old classic Stradio Lab episode to refamiliarize new listeners with the lore that built the podcast. The government cannot shut down.
00:00:32
Speaker 1: Because we recorded some of these long long ago. The audio quality may be mixed, but trust the ideas are eternal and dangerous.
00:00:41
Speaker 2: So take out your notebook and open to page one, because it's time to start taking notes about the things we've said.
00:00:51
Speaker 1: Okay, enjoy the past. Bye. Podcast starts now.
00:00:56
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:00:57
Speaker 1: Hello esteemed listeners, and welcome to Stradio Lab. We are so thrilled and honored that you are spending your let's say Wednesday at three pm listening to us, whether you're driving in your car to your next appointment or your home naked from the only bottom, naked, wearing a shirt Winnie the poo Stye.
00:01:22
Speaker 2: Recovering from your former appointment, recovering from your former appointment, walking around the house fully erect sure, going into the kitchen making a grilled cheese out. You got some hot oil on your bare bones, if.
00:01:38
Speaker 1: That is you, and we know you want to turn us off, but we appreciate you sticking with us through the pain, through the tears, through the crying and the screaming.
00:01:47
Speaker 2: Just focus on our voice. Focus on our voice, and not on the physical pain you feel from the scalding hot oil you accidentally got on your bone, on your bone, on your butt bone that you got while making a grilled cheese. And because you were fully erect, your penis sort of knocked over the pan and then the hot oil went onto your bone.
00:02:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if we're if this hasn't happened to you, Just so you're clear, what happened to one of your fellow listeners is their penis knocked the pan pan that was full of hot oil making a grilled cheese. That pan hit the ground, causing the oil to splash up and hit their bone.
00:02:28
Speaker 2: And for that listener, I have one message, and it is that you know it works better if you put may on the bread.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, not cooking tips. Well, if you can hear our voices, uh yeah, we sound weird today. Yeah, and by weird we mean better, better, more calm, more professional.
00:02:49
Speaker 2: And it's because we're back in Hell's kitchen.
00:02:52
Speaker 1: Letting the spirit run through us. And yeah, you know, whenever we're in a studio space talking about the podcast. When we make the podcast, it does make us sort of act like we're pretending to do a podcast, which is weird because most people this is where they go to record a podcast. But for us, it always feels like, oh, today we're playing dress up to they were playing podcasters.
00:03:12
Speaker 2: Strange well, especially because we're in Hell's Kitchen, which is where all gay men work in marketing. Yeah, you know, when we're doing it over zoom in our apartments, wearing sort of a ripped band tea. You know, it's punk rock, it's they you know, we're sort of it's like it's Courtney Love giving a middle finger to the camera.
00:03:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so Courtney Love.
00:03:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. And whereas now we're sort of it's more Kim Gordon, but like appearing having a meeting a better brand partnership. Not Kim Gordon during Rockstar era.
00:03:47
Speaker 1: No, it's Kim Gordon appearing on NPR.
00:03:49
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, and it's like, yes, she's talking about her punk rock days and you know, and listen, we love Kim Gordon. You know. You know she's slay. You know, she has slate in the past. In the moment when she is wearing fully like a vintage blazer in a studio on NPR. That's not the most she's slayd No. But also I'm not here to say when she slayed the most. I'm here to just say that she has slaved right and not rank the moments to ten.
00:04:18
Speaker 1: I'm not BuzzFeed.
00:04:19
Speaker 2: I sort of want to know, like, how much does someone have to slay in order to slay for life?
00:04:26
Speaker 1: How much does someone have to slay in order to slay for life?
00:04:28
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this because this is this is going to date when we're recording this. But you know, today Gwen Stefani had a sort of embarrassing moment in the press. Have you seen this?
00:04:37
Speaker 1: Uh huh?
00:04:38
Speaker 2: And Gwen Stefani is someone who, regardless of anything she did during that era, you know, when she was in no doubt she was slaying. That's something we have to acknowledge. I would acknowledge that she was slaying within no doubt. And so how much how many years does she have to go not slaying to in order to no longer be someone who's slaves?
00:04:58
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of people like this, like this is literally the arc of fame and where it's like how how good do they have to be for you to forgive them being bad? Bad bad?
00:05:08
Speaker 2: And I almost think I mean to bring a sort of back to Kim Gordon. It's almost like and Patti Smith is like this too, like almost the best thing you can do is, as soon as you realize you're no longer slaying, just keep reminding people of the time you did. Because maybe Gwen Stefani's issue was that she kept trying to slay in different ways and at some point you're gonna run out of ways, you know what?
00:05:30
Speaker 1: Yeah you're saying, like she her thirst for sleigh was like too insatiable that she ended up tearing herself apart.
00:05:36
Speaker 2: Right, And at this point, when I think when Stefani, I don't picture her wearing the you know, bikini top from the Hey Baby video?
00:05:44
Speaker 1: Uh huh, what do you picture?
00:05:46
Speaker 2: I honestly picture her like with Blake Shelter, I was gonna say the same thing. I picture her on the Voice or whatever show she's on. I picture her honestly. I picture her literally getting interviewed by Jimmy Fallon.
00:05:57
Speaker 1: Oh remember when she slaid?
00:06:01
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:06:04
Speaker 1: Wow, Like, how do you like? I actually think it's funny. When we started this podcast, we recorded in person, and we were almost doing I remember doing like fake like podcast references, like I'd be like, what's up, what the fuckers? Yeah, and pretend like play, pretend that now that I'm here, I'm sort of like I'm having an identity crisis. Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: Well it's suddenly the kunst is me.
00:06:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I've returned to where I was meant to be the whole time, but it feels different.
00:06:35
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it's sort of like when someone I'm trying to think, who is someone known for being a gesture, for being someone who makes fun of the culture, but then suddenly they find themselves being awarded by Barack Obama.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, Sure, that's what we are.
00:06:50
Speaker 2: You know what It reminds me of Actually what when like like when Eminem won an oscar, Sure, and it's like it's a losing battle to try to then win an oscar wearing like a basketball jersey or to win an or like sort of do a speech as though you are both outside of it, and then you have to either commit to ignoring the oscars and releasing a statement that says I'm minem goddamn it. And I only want to write songs about committing violence against women, and I hate the oscars. But if you're gonna go there, you sort it's sort of embarrassing if you don't go all the way. So now that we're in a studio, I'm like, the only way, the only way out of this is to be Terry Gross. You know what I mean?
00:07:37
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, we can do that.
00:07:39
Speaker 2: So George, Yeah, when did you know that you were going to be a podcaster. From a young age, I learned to speak and I would do this thing where I would listen to my own voice, and as soon as it became aware of object permanence, I realized other people can't hear my voice. Only I can.
00:07:58
Speaker 1: So you've talked to other interviews about your mother trying to silence you. Tell me what that was like.
00:08:03
Speaker 2: Yes, she would uh when I would cry, she would say, stop crying. I mean, And that stays with you, that that's something you cannot forget. You know, it's a it's it's a way in which mothers of a different generation didn't realize that when you're when a baby cries, it's because it wants to be a podcaster.
00:08:25
Speaker 1: When a baby cries, it's a cry for help for a podcast setup.
00:08:28
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, it's I cry for help for a podcast set up. And it's also an empowering cry that says here I am.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: It says what's up? What the fuck is?
00:08:36
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know what she's She's come such a long way. And now when I go home and I start crying like a baby as soon as I as soon as I enter my parents house, I start crying like a baby. Google Gaga. I sort of throw bread against the wall, I open the fridge and and just start throwing things away. I'm I'm, I'm fully naked, running across the house, around the room, up and down the stairs. And now she knows, and she says, good for you. Yeah, that must feel really good. It feels really good. And it's gotten a lot of work to get there, you know. And yes, I've gotten the authorities involved. You know. For a while, when she kept saying, why are you doing this? This is so inappropriate. We have guests over, I would call the police and I would report her for creating an unsafe home for her children. At the time, I was twenty eight years old. Yeah, but you know, everyone has to learn their lesson. Yes, to give a book coming out correct. Yes, and it's about my relationship with my mother, and she does not like it.
00:09:40
Speaker 1: She's like an accept you as a podcaster, but as an author. I don't think so, honey.
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and you know, yes, the book is a children's book with pictures, and it's marketed towards children. And yes, the pictures are in fact erotic. No, yeah, yeah, But to me, I'm like, okay, no one has ever done this before. People have written memoirs before, people have written books of humorous essays that are called like that's My seat, But no one has ever done a children's book of erotic queer photographs of themselves.
00:10:15
Speaker 1: No, that's true. I let me finish.
00:10:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, dedicated to their mother. Sure, well that's really powerful. That's all I have to say about that. So I think I'm ready to move on to the next portion of this evening.
00:10:29
Speaker 1: Well, I think maybe we should invite our guests.
00:10:33
Speaker 2: In and talk about someone who slays.
00:10:35
Speaker 1: If I was someone who's slaying and actually doesn't need to remind us that they're slaying because they're slaying, I feel like this guest, I'm almost like, well, ever, since I've met them, they have been slaying.
00:10:44
Speaker 2: And the fact that there could be some point in the future where they stop slaying and then we have to sort of grapple with that as a community fills me with so much fear that I can't even think about it.
00:10:54
Speaker 1: I mean, that is the downside to slaying is that sometimes it creates a when the other shoe drop feeling like if someone's not slaying, you're not worried about them stopping sla I know, well, this is the sort of like catch twice. Well, I don't know if catch it was the right, but let's just run with it. Okay, Well, this is so this is a catch twenty too. Is that sort of a sophie's choice?
00:11:13
Speaker 2: This is a sophie's choice? This is you know, it's sort of like maybe the solution is to never slay to begin with.
00:11:24
Speaker 1: Well, isn't there a saying about that it's better to have slayed and flopped than to have never slayed at all?
00:11:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true. I sort of think it's a it's a it's a very capitalist impulse to not slays as a form of self protection, where You're like, well, what if I flop? Mm hmmm, Whereas it's more communist to try to slay knowing you might flop and trust that the social safety net will catch you when you fall.
00:11:56
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, sure that makes sense to me.
00:11:59
Speaker 2: So anyway, please welcome Sabrina.
00:12:00
Speaker 3: Wo Hi everybody.
00:12:03
Speaker 1: So Sabrina, before we started recording you, we said, be careful, we're going to do a ten minute intro, and you said, no, that's totally okay. The first part of a podcast is always the most excruciating. How did you feel about that?
00:12:15
Speaker 2: Yeah?
00:12:15
Speaker 3: You know, I actually feel better than usual?
00:12:17
Speaker 1: Wow?
00:12:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah yah yeah no, And I really mean it.
00:12:24
Speaker 1: No, I believe you.
00:12:25
Speaker 3: And if anything, I was just like, I mean, what was so painful is like I just wanted to jump in right so much like congratulations on your book.
00:12:32
Speaker 1: I think.
00:12:33
Speaker 3: I hope, I hope you get a cattle cat a Newberry Award.
00:12:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, I need it.
00:12:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, but do you know what I'm talking about this?
00:12:42
Speaker 4: I do know what you're talking one for the art specifically, Okay, you know I.
00:12:46
Speaker 2: Did all the illustrations myself or in the photography and the illustrations.
00:12:49
Speaker 3: Oh you illustrating.
00:12:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, well so it makes media, Well it makes me.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: It's these really beautiful black and white photographs, charcoal photographs, yes, charcoal photos. And then on top of them, I did a sort of Perez Hilton white white, little Duncum dots. Yeah. Yeah, well that's what makes it a kid's book.
00:13:11
Speaker 3: It's sort of fun, right, and I love it when it's like we it's actually like a picture within a It's like, yeah, you're looking like at a desk that they the photo is, and then there's come.
00:13:20
Speaker 2: U yes exactly. And each book was made by hand from scratch, which is why it was sort of expensive to produce, and I'm in a lot of debt because of it. It's not these are.
00:13:31
Speaker 3: Why did you make so many?
00:13:33
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why'd you make one million? All on your own?
00:13:36
Speaker 2: Well, because I wanted to be a best seller. What am I going to do sell one book?
00:13:42
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:13:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you know, the holidays are coming up just around the corner, around the corner, so you know, if you're looking for a way to celebrate what's in February or March Valentine's Valentine's Day, what.
00:13:57
Speaker 3: A perfect gift to your child.
00:14:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, for Valentine if you want to give your child the perfect Valentine's Day gift, give your child the erotic book that I wrote containing my nudes.
00:14:10
Speaker 1: You actually bring up an important point, which is did you ever get like presents? Like did your parents give you something on Valentine's Day? No?
00:14:19
Speaker 2: That sounds sick and I am publishing in an appropriate children's book.
00:14:25
Speaker 3: No, in fact, by I don't know if my parents are big president givers. The only my dad tried my freshman year of high school, and he was like, he gave me a ping pong paddle, which.
00:14:36
Speaker 2: But you didn't have a ping pong table.
00:14:38
Speaker 3: No, we did, but racially charged given that we weren't really and nobody think you wanted some bonding time and then and then a neon green like sweatband like like.
00:14:50
Speaker 1: Pro oh he doesn't want to work out.
00:14:53
Speaker 3: He doesn't really do not, but but I think you want to be a look good.
00:14:56
Speaker 2: Oh well he was sort of like, I mean, it's honestly pretty considerate to be like, well, if they're gonna play ping punk, they might as well.
00:15:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean I remember getting things and no matter what it was, I would feel shame. I'd be like, oh my god, my parents aren't in love with.
00:15:11
Speaker 2: Me, Like they literally got you Valentine's Day, No, like like candy ego or like like I remember one time they gave me like a bag for like my track shoes. You know.
00:15:19
Speaker 1: Yeah. It wasn't like fancy. It was just like here's a thing, because it's a it's a special day.
00:15:24
Speaker 2: Well, here's what I'll say about Valentine's Day as someone who that's right, grew up in two different countries. Something that always shocked me about Valentine's Day in America is how the kids were made to write each other Valentines. Oh yeah, yeah, what a strange tradition in my opinion, Like you just write little How did it work? You just wrote little cards that didn't even have anything. It was just like from Sam to George and then gave it to your classmate.
00:15:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was mostly like we're friends.
00:15:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was like heart themed.
00:15:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like taste and there was like it was mostly like a heart themed Halloween. Like it's just like kind of candy exchanging. And also it's sort of popularity contest because at a certain age you don't have to give it to everybody, and so then you're like oh I got one hundred Valentines and then it's like, oh I only got ten. It's like, well, better next year, learn to make a splash. Yeah, fifth grade's kind of hard. Grow up.
00:16:21
Speaker 2: Oh my god, did it still happen in and fifth grade?
00:16:23
Speaker 1: I actually feel like it did. Oh interesting, Like I think it like went till middle school.
00:16:28
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:16:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was like institutionally supported.
00:16:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's what I was like.
00:16:33
Speaker 3: I don't think fifth graders were like, if you were really into it, that's really.
00:16:37
Speaker 1: I wasn't really, I wasn't obsessed with it. I just knew I'd existed for you. How was what was your feeling towards them?
00:16:45
Speaker 3: I was, well, I think I think my school had a policy where you could not bring, Like you couldn't only give to some people. It was for everybody. And and I think I even I have like, ah, I never remembered to bring anything for anyone. It was like a big like I take, well, that's never really give.
00:17:01
Speaker 2: That's kind of a power move though.
00:17:03
Speaker 3: Thank you, I mean to get yeah, and all the other social suffering.
00:17:08
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just sort of crazy to think like that you were forced by the powers that be to give a Valentine to like someone who may have bullied you or someone who you disagreed with politically.
00:17:17
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was what's that toxic positivity where they're almost hoping that it would like make everyone get along and be like if you can just just give them a card. So it's like thinking of you.
00:17:28
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, it is sort of like, you know, it's it's poly inclusive. It is you know, everyone is in love with everyone in fifth grade. You're Valentine's is such an individualistic like either we're in a couple or you're not. Sort of holiday as soon as you turn eighteen. But it's nice than for a while there we all just lived in a sort of you know, uh Swedish commune.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: Yes, it was very beautiful.
00:17:51
Speaker 2: Wow.
00:17:51
Speaker 3: Yeah I love my fifth grade polyicule.
00:17:53
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I'll never forget any of them.
00:17:56
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow. Well anyway, Sabriena, how are you?
00:18:02
Speaker 3: I'm great? This was this was the highlight of my day. Oh my god, the vocal point of it.
00:18:06
Speaker 2: So that's incredible.
00:18:07
Speaker 1: That's incredible. So George, you're right now, Do you want to talk about that?
00:18:12
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we're cutting that. We can pivot to me yeah, would that be so crazy?
00:18:21
Speaker 3: No, no, And it's not because I didn't give enough no no.
00:18:23
Speaker 1: No, no, no no.
00:18:24
Speaker 2: It's because Sam asked the forbidden question. And the fact, you know what we'll do is we'll beep it and then we'll just like reference it as the forbidden question.
00:18:31
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I guess I first want to apologize for asking the forbidden question. Yeah.
00:18:34
Speaker 2: Well, there's only one topic that is off limits on this podcast.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and it's tough because you know, we're sort of like you said, punk rock Lower east Side nineteen seventy CBS, and I thought, okay, so I can say anything, and you know, George is doing you know, boners, burning bonex and and and the children over and stuff. And I was like, okay, let's see what else. See where else we can push the envelope here.
00:19:03
Speaker 2: To me, everyone can have one forbidden question. Like it's I'm trying to think of like, you know, like celebrities that don't want to talk about a specific thing. It's like you, if you're Tom Cruise, your one thing can be that you don't want to talk about scientology.
00:19:19
Speaker 1: But that's it.
00:19:19
Speaker 2: You can only have one forbidden question.
00:19:21
Speaker 1: So where he should ask him about a sexuality.
00:19:23
Speaker 2: We should exactly. Yeah, And if he doesn't want us to ask about a sexuality, then he has to talk about being a scientologist. You can have it both ways.
00:19:30
Speaker 1: Wow, do you have a forbidden question? No, we're not allowed to ask a definition. I don't know if they will be able to.
00:19:37
Speaker 3: No, I'm an open book. You can't ask me anything you want.
00:19:41
Speaker 1: That's a trap.
00:19:42
Speaker 3: No, I'm serious. No, I'm serious, Like, ask me anything.
00:19:46
Speaker 2: What do you think is the worst question one of us could ask?
00:19:49
Speaker 3: You can't believe you asked me that. Oh my god, Oh you know what? Yeah, to be honest, like if you ask me what my thoughts are on real presentation? I actually like glitch out and like like spiral.
00:20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah what I and I hate to now harp on this what sort of specific like uh, part of the representation conversation? Would you be most unwilling to talk about craft? The worst possible question? And we won't we won't look, we won't ask it back. It's sort of like like you're in a podcast. Two white gaze are they're just like us but uglier? Yeah, exactly, two white gays that are just like us but uglier and sort of inside and out and dumber.
00:20:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like, Okay, you know what it's sort of like if I am an actor, is making like representation for my own like groups that I'm a part of, like really like good for the world and like morally significant like as a like does it make like me like an amazing person?
00:20:56
Speaker 1: Right?
00:20:56
Speaker 3: If I'm like But it just depends like Okay, do you know what I'm saying? Just sometimes it's just like a little Okay, I feel like I'm being crazy, you're crazy vibrating to me.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: To me, the question is like and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, and maybe this is not what you're touching on. But it's like there's a way to frame those questions where the only possible way to answer feels self important and moralistic. So it's almost like the person setting you up for a trap where they're like, do you feel like the work you do is important? And you can't be like, well no.
00:21:29
Speaker 1: But you also can't be like actually really important, right.
00:21:33
Speaker 3: Totally yeah, yeah, yeah, right?
00:21:35
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying a little bit a.
00:21:37
Speaker 3: Little bit of that, And That's what I'm saying when you ask me this.
00:21:40
Speaker 5: I've become completely incompra But I actually love that, And actually that is a better reason to have a forbidden question than something you actually don't want to talk about, Because I agree with you is that the topics people are most interesting interested in often are the ones that have the most nuanced and therefore the ones you don't want to talk about in like a live podcast format.
00:22:01
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's very save it for the book, save it for the book exactly. I Have you ever done something sort of interview based and then asked them not to release it?
00:22:16
Speaker 1: No? I have really? Wow?
00:22:19
Speaker 2: I did greta Titleman's previous podcast. It was called The Worst I believe, where you talked about like the worst moment of your life, or like a bad moment of your life or something, and I talked about like the nitty gritty details of a breakup. And I got home and I was like, what was that?
00:22:43
Speaker 1: Like?
00:22:43
Speaker 2: In what world did I think I would then feel comfortable with that being like in the Apple podcast app Life? And I texted Gret I was like, I'm so sorry, like, absolutely, don't release that.
00:22:54
Speaker 1: Wow? Was she okay with it? Yeah?
00:22:58
Speaker 2: I mean listen, maybe behind my back she was dming, you know, texting every other member of the Brooklyn comedy scene and was like, this dumb thag, George doesn't want me to release this episode. But no, she was incredibly nice about it, and I think it's like you know, and thank god she was, and thank god because now I sew it as a book.
00:23:18
Speaker 1: Yay. Do you guys want to know my forbidden question? Yes? Yeah, it's where were you on January sixth, twenty.
00:23:30
Speaker 2: Wow?
00:23:31
Speaker 1: And with that, should we do our first segment? Yes? We should? Wow? Okay, Sabrina. Our first segment is called straight Shooters, and in it we ask you a series of rapid fire questions to gage your familiarity within complicity and straight culture, especially this thing or this other thing. And the only rule is you can't ask any follow up questions.
00:23:58
Speaker 2: Great, okay, Sabrina. Gentleman's Quarterly or Lady Marmalide, Lady Marmalide.
00:24:09
Speaker 1: Drag him okay, Hulk Cogan or Cat Cohen.
00:24:14
Speaker 2: God, that is an incredible question, okay, Madam X or mister Magoo mister okay?
00:24:25
Speaker 1: Your chosen family or your chosen financial plan at Morgan Stanley.
00:24:29
Speaker 2: Anything but chosen family, okay, Sabrina. A gendered happy meal toy or a rendered image of what New York would look like with more inclusive urban design.
00:24:41
Speaker 3: Chosen happy meal, So.
00:24:42
Speaker 1: I can say it, Okay, Lost air Pods or The Last Airbender.
00:24:50
Speaker 3: Oh, Last Airbender?
00:24:52
Speaker 2: Okay, Friday the thirteenth, Sunday, Bloody Sunday, or Wednesday now streaming on.
00:24:58
Speaker 3: Netflix, Wednesday streaming on Netflix.
00:25:02
Speaker 1: Okay, Puss in Boots or Venus in Furs.
00:25:07
Speaker 3: Oh, Venus and Furs.
00:25:09
Speaker 1: Why not?
00:25:10
Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy that there's a children's character named Puss and Boots.
00:25:15
Speaker 1: I know, I know, there's a sort of.
00:25:18
Speaker 2: Way in which this is a sort of horseshoe theory of gay culture and children's culture, where it's sort of like Puss and Boots could either be like a really inappropriate drag queen, or it could be a cat wearing boots. Yeah, and thank god's the ladder, and thank god it's the latter, Otherwise I would have to vote Republican. Wow.
00:25:44
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to say, I think you did incredible. I think I'm gonna say nine hundred doves.
00:25:50
Speaker 2: We rate each guest on a scale of zero to one thousand doves, and I agree it was a nine hundred doves performance.
00:25:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a cool confidence there.
00:26:00
Speaker 3: Nine hundred doves. Yeah, when where did I lose the other one hundred doves?
00:26:04
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, do you want to hear the critique or yes?
00:26:10
Speaker 2: Yes, Sam, you can go first.
00:26:13
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, you had sort of a knowing confidence, and we really loved that about your performance. But there was sort of a dismissiveness to the questions that we just worked so so hard on. And yeah, so I felt like that was sort of where we docked some doves.
00:26:34
Speaker 3: Well, that wasn't the tone I was trying to strike. I was really trying. I mean, I really respect you to you know. I even listened to a couple of episodes.
00:26:44
Speaker 2: You know, Sabrina. It's like, we gave you nine hundred doves, which is a very good score on you know, there's no denying it.
00:26:51
Speaker 1: There's not a perfect score.
00:26:53
Speaker 2: It's not sorry sorry, but you know, to focus on the negative like this and and and suddenly make us justify our score that we selected completely arbitrarily on our podcast.
00:27:08
Speaker 3: This is why you're never gonna slave. How do you think I've gotten this?
00:27:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you know, I do think there's something about being complacent and I think a lot of times, sometimes I'll be like, oh, it's good. You know how people are like practice gratitude, like be happy for what you have, Like what if that's wrong? Like sometimes I'm like, oh, I love my like little Bushwick apartment and I love my like simple life.
00:27:31
Speaker 2: No, it's like you have to.
00:27:35
Speaker 1: You have to leave that apartment as I need to like go into like major debts that I have to work really really hard to get out of it. And I do want to say one thing about your performance, Sabrina, is that the fact that you I'm now realizing the fact that you challenge the nine hundred doves sort of makes it a thousand doves. That's true because I think the fact that you knew not to challenge us when we told you not to ask questions, but then as soon as that part of it was over, you immediately were like, well, I want I want to see the paperwork, I want to see the receipts. Why didn't I get a thousand? And then we honestly didn't have a good enough answer for you. So the fact that you exposed us for the frauds we are means that you are winning a Pulitzer Prize. In journalism and at the prize is a thousand ups.
00:28:16
Speaker 3: Wow, this is like, this is actually a really importan lesson all the children who are listening.
00:28:20
Speaker 1: No, it's true.
00:28:21
Speaker 3: In high school, I used to, you know, just like be really negative on myself every time I you know, got like a nine out of ten on a you know what I mean.
00:28:28
Speaker 1: I'd be like yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker 3: But then there were always a bunch of kids that would go back to the teacher and be scary, just like the way I was too, really scary. And then the next thing, you know, they have a four point three.
00:28:37
Speaker 1: GPA messed up.
00:28:39
Speaker 2: It's really like, honestly, one of the most important lessons in life is to know when to challenge authority and when to sneakily not challenge authority so you can build up more challenging power later on. If you had sort of responded to each one of our straight shooters with like fuck off, then at the end, at the end, you would have no more leeweight like, we would have no more patience for your challenging and you would have no leeway to challenge your score, which would at that point be like sort of a hundred.
00:29:06
Speaker 3: Is sure every time you asked me a question. My brain was like not now.
00:29:09
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, because you were like, what if later I will need to challenge right, exactly.
00:29:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean to be honest, if you had responded to every single one yelling at us fuck off, I would have to stand. Unfortunately, that's true.
00:29:21
Speaker 2: I mean it's really tough because we are, on the one hand authority figures. On the other hand, we ourselves are kind of Kim Gordon, So it is difficult when we respect the challenging of authority. So it's always like my challenging authority, you're in fact pandering to us.
00:29:35
Speaker 1: I do think we create a toxic environment by like we reward people being bad. Yeah, and we actually need to reward people who are being good.
00:29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you ever been in it?
00:29:46
Speaker 3: I'm so good.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you would do well as an authority figure?
00:29:50
Speaker 3: No, I actually like actively like avoid positions of authority, like.
00:29:55
Speaker 1: And you've been asked, oh all the time?
00:29:57
Speaker 3: No, well not later in life, because but I think like when I was like in high school and college, I was especially high school, I was always like, let me be captain of the team. But I was dropping yeah, like I was dropping balls left and like not like basket.
00:30:11
Speaker 1: Like yeah, like you know, like metaphors metaphorical of course, oh the.
00:30:15
Speaker 3: Team dinners, like you know, if there, if I didn't have, like if there wasn't so much like you know, you need to So I thought I sound like such an ass.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: You know you do not sound like but there's like.
00:30:25
Speaker 3: A lot of pressure, like everyone should be a leader, everyone should be leader. Yeah, it in your hand, and you're like, okay, like I don't think I should be a leader, but I'll do it because that feels like who I'm supposed to evolve to. But later in life I've been like, yeah, I just fail everyone around me every time I do it.
00:30:39
Speaker 2: I guess this is such a rich topic, and I honestly think like leadership could be a straight topic on the podcast. But yeah, it's almost like what replaced religion when society became secular. It's this obsession with leadership. It's like if Jesus is dead, someone else has to step up.
00:30:56
Speaker 1: I mean leadership also in business goes so hand in hand.
00:30:59
Speaker 2: But yeah, but also when you were a teen, did you have sort of like leadership camp or like leadership I mean I never went to one, right, Yes, I remember seeing those, it's like the best thing you could be told at twelve years old is that you're a leader, not what are you leading? What if you're leading like QAnon, what if you're literally leading the charge to for the insurrection?
00:31:22
Speaker 1: I mean I bet a lot of them were twelve year old leaders.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yes, I mean certainly cerebrally. It's just like, it's very it's crazy that the fetishizing leadership. I mean it's the same as fetishizing like business success, where it's like, well, okay, a at what cost B to one end? Yeah, those are the forbidden questions and our society. Wow.
00:31:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very like okay, but leading what like yeah it don't want to lead anything?
00:31:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'll have the like they did sort of within the framework of leadership off or something for those who were not leaders, and it was you know, what's even more powerful than being a leader being the first follower.
00:32:01
Speaker 1: That was like wow, did they say that?
00:32:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a big thing. It was like and they even have this like viral video. I'm butchering this, but in my head it exists as there's a bunch of sheep and.
00:32:14
Speaker 4: Like one sheep goes this way right and but it takes the second sheep for then the rest of the sheep to you know what I mean, like anywhere.
00:32:23
Speaker 3: That's the idea was like anyone can be a leader, but to discern, you know who the fascinating at least, that was like sort of the sort of you could I think that kids were.
00:32:35
Speaker 1: First taste maker, first sheep is taste making?
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Wow? Is it okay?
00:32:40
Speaker 6: Now?
00:32:40
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that. Am I against the first? Am I against the tastemaker's sheep?
00:32:45
Speaker 1: Like?
00:32:45
Speaker 2: Do I think that's a sort of toxic framework? Or do I actually love that? Because if the tastemaker sheep is queer coded in fact, don't you think like the leader, the leader is straight, The leader is Barack Obama, but the tastemaker sheep is you know, will I am writing the Obama song? No?
00:33:05
Speaker 1: I think I mean as unfortunately I idolize the tastemaker sheep. I I you know, I remember following the taste maker sheep on Twitter in like twenty twelve and just being so influenced by tastemaker sheep and you're sorry. So I feel very like I just hope to someone that I am the tastemaker's sheep.
00:33:24
Speaker 2: I know, to be the tastemaker sheep actually is such a powerful position in culture I'm not realizing and talk about like to go back to the conversation about slag, It's like, at some point the tastemaker's sheep loses their taste making abilities, like they either get too old to be in touch with the culture. And I'm not saying that in an ageous way, but just sort of like they get out of touch. Let's say, Yeah, they snap and become reactionary, or they misunderstand their own position and think they're a leader rather than a taste maker sheep, and so they start making like merch and it's like, well, you just run an Instagram account that curates tiktoks.
00:34:04
Speaker 1: And so okay, yeah, that's where the taste maker sheep starts falling off for me, the Instagram accounts that just curate TikTok and I think that.
00:34:12
Speaker 3: The framework would then say, you know, well those are the third, fourth, and fifth followers.
00:34:17
Speaker 2: Those are not followers, so an instagram So an instagram that creates tiktoks can never be the tastemaker sheep. That's sort of fourth, fifth, six.
00:34:26
Speaker 3: I don't right, because yeah, you're right, that's already viral.
00:34:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that is.
00:34:31
Speaker 1: Very that's really true that there's literally like the one million sheep.
00:34:34
Speaker 2: Okay, so so it goes leader, Tastemaker, Curator.
00:34:38
Speaker 3: The more we're talking, I'm sure this video wasn't of sheep and I, but.
00:34:43
Speaker 2: The way the way it has been cannon now for it might as well be years.
00:34:47
Speaker 1: No, like the merchant is being made.
00:34:49
Speaker 2: The idea that you think there was any going back from.
00:34:52
Speaker 1: This is like, I'm actually seeing all the sheep, and honestly, I'm realizing that it's kind of a danger because we're going to be having our listeners counting sheep in their head and they can't be falling asleep.
00:35:02
Speaker 2: No, And it's you know, it's like leader taste Maker curator, Leader taste Maker Curator.
00:35:06
Speaker 1: You're having the sheep. They're like, okay, so there's seventeen sheep in the creative world.
00:35:11
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but not to go back to children's books. This is a genius idea for a children's book, and it actually like so perfectly describes our contemporary society like to have. It's like the three sheep. One is a leader, one is a tastemaker, one is a curator, which one do you want to be? And each person has it's the three personality types.
00:35:30
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is going to end up in like it's going to be a company personality. Yeah, it already feels very Meyers Briggs.
00:35:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Wow. Wow.
00:35:39
Speaker 2: Do you respond well to things like that where it's like there are three types of people? There's four types of people there, Like, is that something that compels you?
00:35:47
Speaker 3: It's something that like, all right, honestly, like if I take an if I take a little bit about all I will be doing that for.
00:35:51
Speaker 2: Twelve hours taking sure.
00:35:53
Speaker 3: Sure, but it's not like I'm I'm sort of always like, oh no, I'm glitching out again. Maybe this is a forbidden question. I'm like, it's just sort of like, you know, I can never talk about feeling like, I mean, there's some true then it's also totally like fake and this that you're you're telling a machine right, and then it's spitting back exactly what you've just told it and reducing what you right said.
00:36:19
Speaker 2: But even like not a test but sort of a framework that is your like the idea of introvert versus extrovert, where it's like you get your energy from being around people, where you get your dreaming alone or the idea or even like astrology, like you know, is it like a comforting thing to put yourself in a box.
00:36:35
Speaker 1: I have the most embarrassing tale, okay regarding this, which is you know this podcast. Like I said, it's edgy, it's punk rock, it's nineteen seventy CBGB, Debbie Harry and I we've always mocked sort of people that really lean into the introvert extrovert thing, and it's sort of been like, yeah, we get it. But recently I was around people for a long time and I physically got sleepy in a way that was like, oh, like I think I'm I think I'm an introvert.
00:37:08
Speaker 2: I've always sort of thought you were an interviewed.
00:37:10
Speaker 1: And this is shocking to me because I was like, no, I don't even I don't believe in it like everyone's everything. Yeah, And now I'm like, oh no, I believe in it so hard and I actually think I know where I fall.
00:37:22
Speaker 2: Do you want to know what was a game changer for me?
00:37:24
Speaker 1: Oh?
00:37:24
Speaker 2: Sorry, go ahead.
00:37:25
Speaker 3: I'm just actual feeling bravee. I'm feeling like your first follower through this. Yeah that I actually also recently really started to identify as like an introvert.
00:37:35
Speaker 1: Wow, really needed.
00:37:37
Speaker 3: It to like not feel like crazy, and especially like in comedy, there's totally yeah, way way too much, like there's way too many social dynamics and like something about being like, oh, I really like just who I am. My natural baseline is not the same as these other people and I it's just like it's nice you don't like beat yourself up about like totally whatever.
00:37:59
Speaker 1: No, I think that's true. Vulnerable moment.
00:38:02
Speaker 3: Wow, well cringe a little bit.
00:38:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's okay.
00:38:06
Speaker 2: I recently had a moment of deep connection to something. I read a categorization schema that I read and this is in the book Pure Color by Shila Hetty, and it sort of starts out in it it's almost like you're reading a biblical fairy tale or something in the beginning, and it identifies three types of people bears, birds, and fish. The birds see the world from a remove and they're sort of like the cultural critics of the world. They're like not making you know, intimate personal connections, but sort of seeing the world that are removed and making grand esthetic and you know, artistic judgments. Then there are the fish, which are sort of like they care about social justice. They are they care about everyone equally, and they care about equality and things like that. And then there are the bears, who would develop personal connections and they sort of can care deeply about like one to four people, like they develop like intimate connections. Hmmm, And I was like, this is actually a better framework than a lot of the things out there. Would you say you're a fish, bear or bird?
00:39:13
Speaker 1: I have no idea, I'm I'm I'm still mulling it over there.
00:39:17
Speaker 2: Well we can check in at the end of the episode.
00:39:19
Speaker 3: You don't think that, Like, wait, which one's the one that has no close friends?
00:39:23
Speaker 1: So which one's a loser?
00:39:25
Speaker 2: But bird is like imagine liked Susan Sontag. She's like out a remove, She's like judging society almost like from outside of it.
00:39:34
Speaker 1: Oh interesting.
00:39:35
Speaker 2: But then fish are like want care about everyone equally and wants social justice and equality, and bears bears are like mother. Bears are like a really caring friend that like has you know, thrives in like intimate personal relationships rather than big picture Which one are you? I mean? I think I think I might be bird. This is kind of what's the scariest one, and it's really scary. I mean, I could see you as bird. That I mean, by the way I do develop intimate relationships you have, so I don't have friends. But it's sort of like I do feel like my instinct often is to like try to to a fault almost like try to think big picture and try to like I don't know, come up with a diagnosis for what I'm seeing.
00:40:33
Speaker 1: Sure, I see that this one seems This reminds me of the representation question a little bit, because there feels like no way to pick one without being self aggrandize one.
00:40:43
Speaker 2: Hundred Yeah, and because all of them are good. I mean, either you are an iconic cultural critic, or you care about social dresses, or you are like a really good friend, daughter, son, parent.
00:40:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:56
Speaker 3: I okay, Well, I have a reading on the fish one that isn't like I mean, I I don't not care about social justice. Sure, I'm not saying this is somebody who's like the most like you know, I would never whatever. Okay, but I think I am a fish in the sense that like I actually cannot like there are so many people I defend that I don't like that are not close to me yes, or that are even problematic, like like like controversial figures like within a community that everyone else is like you know, like I really think, like I think a lot about like is this fair? And like, uh really, I don't know, but I almost think.
00:41:30
Speaker 2: That's a bird impulse. Yeah, because you're like doing critical analysis, Like I feel like fish is simpler. It's like wanting everyone to be equal. It's like not caring more about someone who's closer to you than you do about someone on the street. Like it's a sort of equalizing thing. Whereas what you're doing, I think is is is like critical analysis. What do you think?
00:41:55
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:41:57
Speaker 3: I think I don't get what the bird is up to.
00:42:00
Speaker 1: Pick a back a lap? Why is the fish social justice? Like that seems like an oversimplification, Like I guess I'd have to read the book to sort of see how we got there. I think that could help inform Yeah, because the bird I get like visually, oh yeah, they're removed. Why they're seeing the world in this way.
00:42:17
Speaker 2: I think fish think of like a school of fish all moving together, you know, it's like more collectively minded.
00:42:22
Speaker 1: Oh okay, sure, I think I neither fish or bear, but I don't know which.
00:42:30
Speaker 2: Wow, I feel like such a bitch for identifying as a bird. Yeah, well your tweets say you are all right? Well should we get into our topic?
00:42:37
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:42:38
Speaker 2: So, Sabrina, Yeah, I would love it with all my heart if you would tell us what topic you have brought forth today for this episode.
00:42:46
Speaker 3: Sure, And I'm actually gonna try to move faster through my sentences.
00:42:50
Speaker 2: There is no reason to move faster or slow.
00:42:52
Speaker 3: I need to get a thousand doves on this whole.
00:42:56
Speaker 1: Sorry.
00:42:56
Speaker 3: Sorry, Okay, I did, I did come I I wanted to talk about homo eroticism.
00:43:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, m hm, I mean it's sort of the topic that it's sort of the umbrella topic.
00:43:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is essentially what this podcast is about. Yeah is that? So? What what led you to homrooticism? What was your way into totally thank you as a straight topic?
00:43:18
Speaker 3: Well, as I was like trying to come up with something straight to talk about, I was gonna like talk about anime and then like then my which I think is some people think of as pretty queer, but I have like I have a pretty strong like I don't I don't think so like interesting the women are have a very flat personality and the largest hits I've ever seen, even if they're the strongest fight Okay, yeah, yeah, right, So but the sort of pause is like, well, you know, it's very homoerotic, like a lot of these characters are sort of but it's like the fact that there is this sort of concept of homoot right, like if it were homosexual, that would be gay, but alas it's it's homo erotic. Yes, like it's the what we're saying is it's so close, but it's actually not. And who even wants that other than you know what I mean, there's even closeted, closeted that's for gay, like that concept and that's pretty homosexual.
00:44:18
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, am I making sense?
00:44:19
Speaker 1: No, You're making actually so much sense.
00:44:23
Speaker 2: It's the straightest thing you can be, because it is saying this is not it's literally no homo it's saying this is not gay.
00:44:35
Speaker 1: I love the making them mutually exclusive homo eroticism and homosexuality, I think is one very funny and two very I see the truth in that. The anime point about, like the women's huge tits and flat personalities, there is an element to that where it's like, were these made by gay men? Like oh sure, yeah.
00:45:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. When you you know, when you see misogyny out in the wild, you always have to ask yourself is this gay misogyny or great misogyny? Often the result, often the result is pretty similar.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like, well, she is slaying right, but did she wants to say?
00:45:15
Speaker 2: Is she a sexual object or is she iconic object?
00:45:22
Speaker 1: No?
00:45:22
Speaker 3: I think you're imagining these women like a little bit too powerful, like they are sort.
00:45:26
Speaker 2: Of like do you think Lara Croft is Lara Croft? Is she's an iconic object?
00:45:34
Speaker 1: She's iconic?
00:45:35
Speaker 3: Is she an anime?
00:45:36
Speaker 2: She she's a video? But I'm just thinking about other sort of like exaggerated fictional animated or animated adjacent women who famously have giant breasts. Okay, okay, homism, How would we define homorticism? I think maybe that's a good place to start.
00:45:58
Speaker 1: So it's two guys, two to four guys.
00:46:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be women.
00:46:06
Speaker 1: Okay. And this is the first time hearing of this.
00:46:08
Speaker 2: Like, Sam, women can be home erotic to one another.
00:46:19
Speaker 1: I'm listening and I'm learning, Yeah, okay, okay, So it's a group of people.
00:46:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just just to.
00:46:25
Speaker 3: Say, as a non minor person, non min ne people cannot cannot be erotic. It's never it's you're never lying. This is you'd be like, no matter where they lean, you're like, that's gay. That's really yeah.
00:46:39
Speaker 2: Well that's sort of how it's. In that way, you are breaking the ultimate bioneer between homeroticism and homosexuality.
00:46:47
Speaker 1: Wow, wow, something you think about, something to think about.
00:46:50
Speaker 2: To me, it's like it is the hint of everything, but antal it is like the hint it is. It is hinting at homosexuality, hinting at same sex attraction. Sure, sure, but is it something more than that?
00:47:08
Speaker 1: I mean, don't we refer to like those weird old Greek art paintings that are like two guys like truly going at it. Does that not kind as homoerotic?
00:47:19
Speaker 2: Well that's that is a very good question, because you do see actually like a truly three guys having full on sex. Yeah, And people are like, wow, this is so homorodic, and I'm.
00:47:30
Speaker 1: Like, no, I think more than that.
00:47:32
Speaker 2: That's actually porn.
00:47:34
Speaker 3: But try sweetie, it is straight people who are goingrotic.
00:47:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, exact, Oh yeah, god, that's true.
00:47:41
Speaker 2: Well Accusations of homoticism can almost be weaponized both ways, because straight people can look at something fully gay and be like, wow, I guess that's a little homerotic, and then they're like straight washing it. But then gay people can look at like, you know, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon and be like that's homorotic. It's like, well, no, you're like trying to make it get right. They're just friends. Yeah, I think, huh, we don't know, we don't know.
00:48:05
Speaker 1: Maybe that's their forbidden questions.
00:48:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is sort of like the fact that Ben Affleck's most lasting relationship is with Matt Damon, and then he keep he sort of is dating an iconic pop star Jennifer Lopez.
00:48:16
Speaker 1: It's kind of gay. That's really gay?
00:48:18
Speaker 2: Actually, Yeah, so.
00:48:22
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, thoughts on like queer baiting and how it that was like sort of my thought on the subway, like how it fits into.
00:48:28
Speaker 2: All of this talk about it forbidden question? Oh God, Like don't you think it is impossible? Like the idea the concept of queer baiting is one of those things that I don't think I could form a coherent thought.
00:48:39
Speaker 1: About the way that that is a circle always when people start talking about it and always.
00:48:44
Speaker 2: Like oh no, no, no, yeah, because my instinct to be honest is to almost be like that is sort of tumbler bullshit, and I don't and I don't care about it, Like it literally does not make a difference to me that Timothy shallow May is playing a gay person yeah or sorry, which I realized is like a different that's different than clear baiting, or that Timothy Schaumy is wearing a you know, bra on a red carpet, or Harry Styles or whatever.
00:49:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:49:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, But then of course someone does toe the line too much, and then I do become upset who tows the line too much? Not toes the line, but like I mean, I think Harry Styles is a good example. It's difficult to talk about this without while also being like, I actually don't like none of this is morally important. It's just annoying, don't you think like I think it is. I think you can be like it is annoying and it makes me roll my eyes when Harry Stoyles is like I've never identified as anything right when he's dating a little bit wild, But that doesn't mean I think he should be arrested No.
00:49:43
Speaker 1: I don't think he should be murdered. I think he should be allowed to put out more music if he wants to.
00:49:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the way, talk about homeroticism, I actually think I think if you're gonna queer bait, go all the way. Like I love that Bruce Springsteen like makes that with that forgetting his name if you know, you know, he makes up like a member of a male member of his band, like and it's like a thing that people know about and he will like kiss him while they're on stage.
00:50:09
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
00:50:10
Speaker 2: Or like, who's the guy from Arctic Monkeys Alex Turner? He has like this other group and they always are like being intentionally like caressing each other's like pecks on stage and it's like everyone knows about it and it's fun and they're like almost making out and I'm sort of like, well, that's that's fun, and that's more fun to me than Harry Style is just wearing a dress. Yeah, what are your thoughts?
00:50:33
Speaker 3: My thoughts are I also break down, but this one and not to be so serious, but like the the only thing that gives me pause because I generally also find it like annoying. It's just like I don't know, Like it's also a lot like to like what's what's the what's the alternative? Like given a world where like Harry is like even like gender queer or like, it's just like when you're that famous, I feel like the stakes are insane, And to ask somebody to be like overtly gay, it's like, oh, like I'm wind of like and that's why I break down. Well, that's why I just jumped shit from this question because I'm like, I'm not I don't think queer baiting conceptually is great. I just think that like like cueerbating in a vacuum is not great. But like pushing somebody to like never seem gay unless you're ready to fully commit to be openly gay, especially as like a world like in a world where there is so much like violence YouTube is scary. I'm sort of like, yeah, like do it, like does that make sense? Like the danger of crebating is like it's very hard to tell if somebody is queer baiting or just like trying.
00:51:41
Speaker 2: To maybe kind of yeah, as like a twenty four year old or whatever, yeah whatever age Harry styles is. Yeah, Yeah, well did I ruin this party?
00:51:50
Speaker 1: No?
00:51:51
Speaker 2: You didn't ruin it. You didn't ruin it. I think the I think we're at eight hundred doves. What do you think?
00:51:58
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think those I also, I mean we're people being like I don't know.
00:52:05
Speaker 2: But I think it's but I think it's almost like it's a class. It's almost like weird that we haven't discussed the concept of creerbating on the pod because it seems so relevant to our interests.
00:52:15
Speaker 1: It seems so easy to be like to come off as ignorant when talking about this, because I am. I am more like, ugh, like this is so annoying. Yeah, like like if you're gonna be gay, be gay, and if you're not, the not or like even say like I'm questioning or something like there is a label. There are labels for a reason, and some people like Harry styles, it seems like there's I don't know, it seems like there's some authentic part of him that like wants to explore something and I celebrate that and if not, then this boy cuckoo. And but then there's like who's really bad at it, like like Charlie Pooth, Like I feel like he's one that it's like he He's just trying to get gay guys to like it.
00:53:05
Speaker 2: Okay, that is so funny that you say that, because I prefer Charlie Pooth's brand of queer baiting, because what Charlie Pooth will do is just post a picture of his ass and then have a funny captain. It's like, well, there's my ass, whereas what Harry Styles will do is launch a line of gender neutral clothing for Gucci. And to me, I actually prefer Charlie Pooth just posting a photo of his ass like that actually feels regardless of whether he literally is a He's like sitting back there in his layer and is like, I'm gonna get these gay guys to press like on this. Even if it's completely inauthentic whatever, it feels at least fun and spontaneous in a way that like Harry Styles launching a brand of nail polish does not. Sure Sure, Sure that makes sense, And I feel like the best sort of like non gay you know, when I think of like prints, or when I think of like, I don't know other people that have played with gender over the years without necessarily be like coming out and being like I'm gay, It's that it comes from a place of like fun mm hmm, rather than a place of like calculated branding and profit and profit.
00:54:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you want to explore with your presentation or your sexuality, go for it. Yeah, but don't you make a damn dime until I'm rich, Sabrina.
00:54:40
Speaker 2: If you were to launch a brand that that that targeted the LGBTQ plus community, what sort of product do you think you would launch?
00:54:51
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh I would I would get lesbians like a hat that cannot go backwards?
00:55:03
Speaker 2: Wow?
00:55:03
Speaker 3: Is that okay to say?
00:55:04
Speaker 1: No? Yes? Well, this is always the question is how do you enforce that?
00:55:08
Speaker 2: Right? Well, it would start like making a noise when it was turning the other way.
00:55:12
Speaker 1: It would just be like maybe there's like a weight in it where it's like this, like you could spin it around as much as you want, but the bill always moves to the front. Oh my god. Yeah, like maybe it's like a magnet.
00:55:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, yes, it could be done with magnetic properties.
00:55:27
Speaker 3: I'm actually gonna do this in my life now.
00:55:29
Speaker 1: That's perfect. Oh, I think that's genius.
00:55:30
Speaker 3: And you agree, like there's something about.
00:55:33
Speaker 2: That is not our place to say, Sabrina and if that's how you feel, then absolutely, like make that and make that pronouncement on our podcast. But you're not going to trick us into agreeing with you that lesbian should not wear backwards hats.
00:55:45
Speaker 3: It's not even like that. It's and I'm look, I love every lesbian, not all equally clearly, but yeah, well you're not a fish, right, I'm unfortunately the bird.
00:55:57
Speaker 1: You're a bird.
00:55:57
Speaker 2: You're a burd in the sense that you're like, why are all these lesbians ring back?
00:56:02
Speaker 3: Well, it's just that I guess, like if I had to see my preference, like I prefer lesbians. Oh you know, well, I think of lesbians on on a spectrum, right, there are the best beautiful lesbians lesbians right.
00:56:13
Speaker 6: Okay, beautiful, Yeah, the spectrum lesbians in their reckwords hats who when I see them in the audience of a stand up show, I'm scared, like I'm actually scared that they will Okay, And then on the other side of the spectrum, a lot of them, honestly are It actually gets buyer.
00:56:35
Speaker 3: On this side. But it's like it's the turtleneck, big pants, oh kind of and I generally sort ofs not lipstick, no, no, no, there's in fact no lipstick, no actively chapstick, like it's that, but it's like it's it's the tumbr hoe but not even like it can be just more like more like a lit like a quiet meaning o versus like loud sporty.
00:57:03
Speaker 1: Got it right, it's Rooney Mara and Carol No? Is that the actress? Ye? Carol? Yeah, thank you.
00:57:14
Speaker 2: So you're you're saying Tumblr thought your words.
00:57:17
Speaker 3: I guess that's what I'm saying, Like Tumblr thought on this side, and I kind of don't really like.
00:57:21
Speaker 2: Already backwards hat on one side, Tumblr thought on the other right, and I'm.
00:57:25
Speaker 3: Sort of calling between both worlds, like in terms of like I love like, I don't like read a lot and that, but I did play like a lot of sports, like you know, but there's just something about like the backwards hat where I'm just sort of like, to me, there's a lot less like let's think about queering the world. It's a lot of like I love women, I love like, I love drinking my beers and like, and I guess it's or and it's not even like every lesbian with the backwards hat is is is like that, but they are perpetuating that culture, because that is a symbol, that kind of a hate symbol.
00:58:01
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, you like equal waits?
00:58:06
Speaker 3: Any other Uh well I don't know any other symbols.
00:58:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, you can't think of one.
00:58:15
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, I d bleep that out if you if you're a lesbian wearing a backwards hat, you might as well be wearing a.
00:58:24
Speaker 3: You actually have to cut that out, George.
00:58:26
Speaker 2: Can you just bleep it?
00:58:28
Speaker 3: Use their imagination about, you know, sort of what Yeah, came to my mind.
00:58:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of bleeping this.
00:58:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is really maybe we should advertise it even as like Stradio labs censored like never before.
00:58:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sabrina, do you feel like when a lesbian? I'm not even gonna ask how you're going to police that these hats only be worn by lesbians. I'm just gonna assume there's a framework in mind. But let's say they're only worn by lesbians. Is your goal for the person who wears his hat to then sort of of be led to self reflection? They try to turn it around, it doesn't go around, and then they're like, wait a minute, what am I trying to do by turning my head around?
00:59:08
Speaker 3: Exactly like when you try to turn around, it says things like don't say shoddy or don't like, don't like if you're what you know what I mean, Like it's it's actually specifically maybe for white and Asian lesbians, or like you know what I mean, like light skin lesbians cannot you know what I'm trying to avoid. It's what is that called? Like a hey, mama, lesbian? I want to it's not. It's not eugenics is I'm not like killing them? No, like I think there should be fewer. I think there should be fewer. And then it's not, that's not who lesbians are like at their core.
00:59:39
Speaker 1: You can put one of those types of lesbians in a museum totally and then the others will change.
00:59:44
Speaker 3: Just inside the glass with Noe's going to see this?
00:59:47
Speaker 2: But you know, you know what, ye oh, my god, my god. If I were to describe what Sabrina is doing, I would say, imagine the emoji that's biting his lip.
00:59:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that.
00:59:58
Speaker 2: Is sort of the vibe. That's the kind of lesbian vibe that you're talking about. Yes, I can picture it so well. And in fact, the biting of the lip is even more evocative than the backwards hat in some ways.
01:00:08
Speaker 1: I mean the way that you've painted a picture. I wish there was video. I feel I know this person you.
01:00:15
Speaker 3: Know yeah, yeah, well you know someone who used to be one.
01:00:18
Speaker 2: I used to you used to be the really.
01:00:20
Speaker 3: I mean, I was never a hey mom, there's no pard of me that could you know?
01:00:24
Speaker 2: Yeah?
01:00:24
Speaker 1: Did you say shoddy?
01:00:25
Speaker 3: No?
01:00:26
Speaker 1: No?
01:00:27
Speaker 3: But I was so close, like did I definitely wanted to. I was like, I want to ask my girl out to pro.
01:00:33
Speaker 2: Dance, and when she would like saying my girl or even like god forbid my lady?
01:00:38
Speaker 3: Right, Never my lady never said my girl out loud, but definitely thought that way, you know what I mean. Like internally, I was like, why is she going to problem with that guy? Like I'm just as good at sports as him, and and I I can dance like I'm so good at like you know, it's just like whatever whatever.
01:00:55
Speaker 1: Maybe she knew that he was a really good leader.
01:00:57
Speaker 3: He wasn't.
01:00:59
Speaker 1: I was like a later, Wow, I thought you were dropping balls. Oh my god.
01:01:05
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm like really learning a lot about how I does that happen to you? Where you're like as you age, you're like your conception of your earlier self, Like, oh, you talk, You're like, we I don't know what I think of how.
01:01:17
Speaker 1: I was like, it's hard to create a succinct narrative, and like we we talk about how we both think of ourselves as like we were really good boys, and so now we kind of feel like we can be really bad and be like, well everyone knows we're good boys, and it's like no, like it's kind of like you can slay and then you can stop playing. But yeah, for how long until people just in terms of being a good boy?
01:01:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah in the frame and the in a family framework, slaying means being a good boy. But I also, I mean, I've talked about this before, but to me, the episode of thirty Rock where Liz realizes that she used to be a bully when she thought that she used to be the victim. Do you know what I'm talking about?
01:01:54
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's like the first episode.
01:01:56
Speaker 2: Right, She like goes to her high school where you know, and she thinks that all these popular girls bullied her, but in fact, what happened was that she was so afraid of being bullied that she would like preemptively be like what's the deal with your mom's pill addiction? Like to the popular girl whatever, that's like one of the lines whatever. And I do I mean not to say that I was that bad, but I do think it was a form of self preservation where like, because you don't want to be the butt of a joke, you then speak out of turn and like make fun of someone or like think you're punching up, but it's like, well that is still a thirteen year old boy.
01:02:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, but uh no, to answer your question, we know exactly who we are and we always know who we've been, and.
01:02:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, all narratives are linear.
01:02:43
Speaker 1: And yeah wow wow, well homeoticism, yeah, I actually think we like randomly got deeper than that.
01:02:53
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I'm trying to think of like what is the straightest Oh my god, wait, we haven't even talked about this. What talk about women in homerooticism. The epitome of straight homeoroticism is like the dorm poster of two girls making out, do you know what I mean? Like like or like the beer ad were the twins where it's like I love twins, like that sort of Sabrina.
01:03:18
Speaker 3: You look well, yeah, I guess I'm I just don't know this dorm post.
01:03:22
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so I think maybe you're like truly like a couple of generation younger, but like people listening know, there is a poster. It's a black and white photo of two girls. Two two girls very sort of like conventionally attractive thin girls in like underwear and like a tank with no bra exactly, and they are about to kiss or maybe in the process. I think they're making I think they're they're actively making out. But it's like that is.
01:03:51
Speaker 1: It was in like half of all dorm rooms for for like I think a decade.
01:03:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then of course, like to you know, it was.
01:04:00
Speaker 1: Like that in the pulp fiction poster like.
01:04:02
Speaker 8: Oh, that one is still around with the bananas or like think about or think about the Rolling Stone cover that was Blake Lively and Layton Measter licking an ice cream cone?
01:04:14
Speaker 2: Does that bring any bells? Not as many, but you can clearly imagine what I'm saying, Yeah, simply just the two of them both licking the same ice cream cone. All I'm saying is like men fetishizing lesbianism is the ultimate sort of homerooticism is straight.
01:04:27
Speaker 1: Of course that's true.
01:04:29
Speaker 2: Homoism for straight consumption, for straight consumption, and then for man what would it be?
01:04:34
Speaker 1: It would be the Abercrombie guy exactly in two thousand and three.
01:04:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, abercrom Againstwosan and three and also soccer players after they win, when they all are just like literally fingering each other, like why do they do that? It's actually insane, Like they need to stop talk about queer baiting. And we're putting Harry Styles on the cross.
01:04:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, put the UK soccer team on blast, like what are they doing in.
01:05:12
Speaker 2: Any final thoughts on home eroticism?
01:05:15
Speaker 3: No, just thanks, And I can't believe I missed such a huge topic, like.
01:05:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, I'm really excited about the launch of the hat.
01:05:24
Speaker 3: Thank you.
01:05:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait for that party.
01:05:26
Speaker 2: And we're we do operate an investment fund and we're looking for things to invest in, and we especially love queer creators.
01:05:32
Speaker 3: I think legally I could not make this hot without you, given that I will use patent magnet.
01:05:37
Speaker 2: To rare right, and that was our idea. Yeah yeah from the lab yeah literally literally wow wow, Okay, will you introduce our finals? I would be honored and overjoyed our final segment Sabrina is called shout outs, and in this segment we pay homage to a classic straight art form called the radio shout out Thank TRL think a radio more show. On Z one hundred. We are shouting out to something that is making us say, Okay, Sam, do you have one?
01:06:09
Speaker 1: Sure? What's up? Everyone around the globe? I love you, I see you, and I want to give a quick shout out to riding my bike. I have not been riding my bike as much recently. I blame the pandemic, and then I blame sort of leaving the house less generally. And today I met a friend for lunch and I rode my bike, just a short, little fifteen minute bike ride, and I said, this puts me in an incredible mood. I feel my mind is cleared. I feel in touch with the city of New York, and I feel like, yeah, I'm still rough and tumble. I'm still a guy who rides a bike somewhere and maybe a carl passed me and go hey, stop it, and I take up space in the road, and I'm happy to do it. I think that's why my ass the way it does, because of all those biking years. And I just want to say, I love you bike riding. You make me feel whole.
01:07:07
Speaker 2: Woo wow wow. I think that's why my ass looks the way it was. What are the hotter statements you've said on this podcast recently? Yeah, you know, sometimes you gotta lean in or lean back. I'll say, let's see, I'm trying to think of one. I know you gave me so much time, and yet I still am coming up blank. This is truly insane. This is the second time this has happened to me this week.
01:07:29
Speaker 1: You've got it.
01:07:29
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, okay, what's up everybody out there. It's your boy, George, and sorry for introducing myself as such. We'll have flaws. I want to give a shout out, respectfully and honorably to my favorite breakfast of choice recently, which is a piece of toast, cottage cheese, pistachios, and then cracked black pepper. I'm telling you, com mind this baby with a friend pot of Joe, and you are cooking.
01:08:04
Speaker 1: Wow.
01:08:05
Speaker 2: And I've already shouted out good culture cottage trees on this podcast, but at this point it was years ago. So for all our union listeners, go out there, get some good culture, cottage cheese, get some bread of your choosing. Get some shelled pistachios. I know it seems so glamorous and so expensive, but you have to treat yourself to shelled pistachios. Put a couple of them on. I'm talking no more than five to six, and then if you don't mind getting messy, sprinkle some olive oil on it. And if you are sort of on the go, just the black pepper will do. And then go about your day. I guarantee you you will get that big client, you will land that big meeting, and you will get that job. Why because you had a good breakfast.
01:08:47
Speaker 1: Whoo. I love that you're a breakfast freak.
01:08:50
Speaker 2: I'm not like a I know that when we were together in La famously, I kept having three eggs every morning. You were like so addiction. I know, and I do love making breakfast into an event. But when I'm working, I love just like that's sort of small. I mean, I'm talking one piece of toast, Like just like to have a tiny meal to just wet your appetite for lunch and know that in three short hours you'll eat again. There's nothing like it. Wow, are you a breakfast person.
01:09:19
Speaker 3: I am a breakfast person since that I love when I get I think that in the morning, I'm the most open minded. And the foods that I do think eggs are gross.
01:09:28
Speaker 1: Wow, but you.
01:09:29
Speaker 2: Don't like eggs.
01:09:29
Speaker 1: I mean I eat them, but they feel very gross. Yeah, I eat them.
01:09:34
Speaker 3: And it's just like I think the morning is a special time, like I think, yeah, it must be an enjoyable time to eat, because I'm eating the foods I would never eat past the hour of like toast, eggs, Yeah, yogurt, They're all kind of like.
01:09:48
Speaker 2: I've been. Really, I've been struggling Grandma so much. Like I I just am never in the mood for yogurt, you know what I mean. Not like that makes one of us anyway, you're ready, feel free to go for.
01:10:03
Speaker 3: It, Okay, I'm all right, Okay, Hey, so we're gonna loser. Hi, okay, Hi, I'm so so oh my god, there's gonna be a soundtrack underneath this, too hot.
01:10:15
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
01:10:18
Speaker 3: I have to shout out. I love all of my followers, but there's one there's one fan in particular that I have to shut up, mostly because actually, two and a half years ago. He said to me, if you ever get on Stradio Lab, there is this segment cold shout out, and it would actually mean the world to me if you shouted me out.
01:10:34
Speaker 7: He is somebody that I that I auditioned for many All on Guard plays he directed in college, and yeah, he casted me into the ensemble. He's so hot, but sorry, fellas, he's taken and he's so delightful.
01:10:46
Speaker 3: A huge fan of the Pond, Thomas Peterson. The shout out goes to you.
01:10:50
Speaker 1: Woo, oh my god.
01:10:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow, Thomas.
01:10:54
Speaker 1: Wow, unbelievable.
01:10:55
Speaker 2: That was incredible.
01:10:58
Speaker 1: That was amazing. Do you ever get like reminded that people actually listen to this podcast and go whoa not if I can help it, I'm like, how the hell did he hear about this?
01:11:07
Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's crazy. He got like all my everyone that I did like plays with in college obsessed with those podcasts. That's actually why I was like, I need to because people are gonna listen. To be honest, it feels like I'm auditioning again for a play, like I feel stressed.
01:11:22
Speaker 5: Well, let me tell you that this Sabrina, you got the row you booked, Thank you, thank you.
01:11:26
Speaker 2: Than Wow, thanks so much for doing the po I always love ending on a sort of self congratulatory note. Yeah, good job George, and good job to you. Well, thank you everyone for listening, especially good job job and to you. Yeah, and honestly, great job Thomas, because you know what Thomas is first sheep for sheep influencer, Sheep, Tastemakers Sheep. That's a tastemakers. Yeah, we have to go, but taste maker sheep is one of the most incredible inventions.
01:11:57
Speaker 1: That's the name of the hat company.
01:11:58
Speaker 2: Yeah and yeah, and my challenge to everyone is spend just spend some time thinking about the sheep framework, because it's actually genius.
01:12:08
Speaker 1: Goodbye, goodbye podcast ends.
01:12:11
Speaker 2: Now for our visual learners, you can watch full video episodes on our YouTube channel and.
01:12:16
Speaker 1: Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra episodes a.
01:12:19
Speaker 2: Month at patreon dot com. Slash Stradio Lab.
01:12:22
Speaker 1: Stradio Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.
01:12:27
Speaker 2: Created and hosted by me George Severs and Sam Taggart.
01:12:30
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Jenna Cagel, co produced by Becca Ramos.
01:12:33
Speaker 2: Edited by Laurence Thump, and mixed and mastered by Doug Bain.
01:12:37
Speaker 1: Artwork by Michael Failes and Matt Grubb. The music by Ben Kling
