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All right, and welcome back to Still Becoming.
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Another episode where we are talking about race meeting the unfinished conversations, about faith in real life.
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And Key Life is sponsoring us, which is fantastic.
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I've tried to get other sponsors.
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I've reached out to places like KFC, like Taco Bell, like Mountain Dew.
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No one wants to be a part of this.
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I'm still waiting on MySpace to get back to me.
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But Key Life right now and its network is sponsoring this.
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We're so thankful for them.
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Go to KeyLife.org.
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Some great resources, great articles, very grace-based.
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You will love it.
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I'm thrilled today.
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We have a special guest on here.
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He's a friend and incredible pastor, author, has an incredible heart for people.
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His name is AJ Sherrill, and I should say Dr.
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A.J.
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Sherrill.
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He is right down the road from me, actually.
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But let me introduce him really quickly so you know a little bit more about him if you're not familiar.
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He has more than 25 years of experience as a pastor.
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He's led churches in cities such as New York, Lay, also as lead pastor at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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And he is now the lead pastor at St.
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Peter's Church here in Charleston, South Carolina, where I'm based out of.
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He has served as adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he teaches popular courses on transformational preaching and the Enneagram.
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He is also the author of the Enneagram for Spiritual Formation, Rediscovering Christmas, which I absolutely loved, this last advent.
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I know that we're in May, but go ahead and buy it.
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Get on Amazon and snag it.
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And being with God.
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AJ, welcome.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for being willing to spend any time with Ryan and I on this podcast.
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Yeah, it's a joy, y'all.
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It's a tall task to encourage your listeners to pick up a Christmas book in May, but I appreciate the nod there nonetheless.
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Doing it.
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I'm doing it.
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Christmas in July.
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Oh, Mark's.
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That's right.
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Marks right around the corner.
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That's right.
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Also, if you're not familiar with this podcast, my name's Drew.
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I'm a pastor author as well here in Charleston, South Carolina.
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And Ryan, our other host, is a pastor.
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I'm also an author.
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I write lots of tweets and uh love letters to my wife, and she enjoys them.
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So, you know.
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Hey, at least they're red.
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They are red.
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You're right.
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I like that.
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Yeah.
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I didn't buy them in bulk either to get on the New York Times bestseller list.
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So yeah.
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Man.
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Well, Ryan's a pastor and an author of love letters, and he's in Texas at uh Stone Gate Church, which is fantastic.
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But I think they originally at GPT the content for your love letters, or are these original content?
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That's a good idea.
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Good question.
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You know, you got to keep some of those, uh, some of those secrets a little close to the vest.
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So, you know, but might might use a little help there every now and then.
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My goodness.
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If you're curious about what we're gonna be talking about today, we're actually having what I think is a fascinating conversation um around deconstruction and reconstruction of the faith.
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This is something that is um, I wouldn't say a hot topic.
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It's been a topic for forever, but I would say it's a growing topic.
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I think it's also something that could be a little bit misunderstood.
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And so we're gonna have a great conversation around that.
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But before we get to that, maybe the most important question.
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And for other guests, we've asked them what is your or what's the best movie or TV show you've seen lately.
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But here's what I know about AJ.
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AJ loves food.
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And I've seen pictures of some of the food that he's made, and it is fantastic.
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As a compliment, AJ loves food.
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No, it's good.
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Okay, here we go.
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Let me let me say this.
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AJ John Candy remixed.
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I am the new John Candy.
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He loves food kind of stuff.
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Properly ordered, yeah, yeah, properly ordered, very Augustinian.
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Yeah.
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Yes, yes.
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So our question for you is um, what is the best thing that you've eaten lately?
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And I know that's a hard question.
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That's a hard question.
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But what's what's the best thing you've eaten lately?
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Or it could be the best thing that you've made lately, whatever you want to go with it.
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This was the first place my mind went.
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Drew, you and I both live in Charleston.
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There's a new restaurant called Shikudu downtown.
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It's a Japanese tavern of us.
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And they gave me a deconstructed role that you actually wrap yourself in the seaweed paper.
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And it was, I mean, it was more work than it was worth.
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It was really tasty.
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And that was just like a unique experience.
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I never rolled my own sushi at a restaurant in a way that was like accessible and easy.
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And that was kind of a fun experience, and it added to the value of a meal.
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I love this.
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It's very on brand for today's topic.
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So a deconstructed role.
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Yeah, I like that.
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There you go.
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Yeah, that's that's great.
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We are on it today.
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It all works.
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We're on fire today.
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No, I've heard of that spot.
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That um that popped up on something that I was reading the other day.
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So that's that's fantastic.
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Well, hey, well, let's let's dive into this a little bit.
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Here, here's why I thought it would be great to have this conversation, especially with you, AJ, and Ryan and I wanted to have this is we both served at Marshall Churches.
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You served at Mars Hill, you you stepped in and were leading that church all the way up until COVID.
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Following, you know, Rob Bell was a pastor there, he had left, another pastor had stepped in, and then you came and were leading the church.
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And Ryan and I um planted a church post-Mars Hill, Seattle.
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And I would say, you know, in both of our contexts, I think we've had a lot of people who were deconstructing their faith, or they were trying to figure out their faith, or they were even doubtful about what faith looked like for a variety of reasons.
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And I don't think that's changed.
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I I don't think that's, I think that's always been there.
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But I think it is something for either, especially even thinking about this podcast, whether it's the pastor that's listening in, or it's just the person who's listening in.
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And maybe their faith does feel a little bit worn.
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Maybe it doesn't feel like where it was, or maybe they're stepping into a place where they're like, I really, I really have some questions.
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I have some doubts here for a variety of reasons.
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And so, kind of to kick this off, I just in your experience, pastoral experience over the last 20 plus years, 25 years, what do you think are some of the most common catalysts around this idea of deconstruction or this process of deconstruction?
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Is it intellectual doubt?
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Is it usually something more personal hurt, betrayal, leadership failure?
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What have you seen around this?
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I think it's uh a cacophony of a lot of contributing factors.
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The thing that I, the, the leading domino that I often, because these are a lot of dominoes that fall, and they're connected, right?
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The leading domino I often see, not always, but often it's a wound.
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It's actually not a an instigation of ideas that happens later.
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It's a wound.
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I think people are plausibility.
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And when the people around us that maybe we followed, we mentored, we looked up to, that held some sort of capital in our spiritual life, when they reveal themselves to have hiddenness, not like good secrecy, but like bad secrecy, I think it's a plausibility structure that like a house of cards comes down and we begin to sort of spiral and question the things that we once felt like were secure through a person or through a people or through an institution.
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And so it doesn't surprise me that we're seeing it's not novel deconstruction, but the sort of popularity of it with the sort of rise and fall of all sorts of things, no pun intended.
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That it's so common and prevalent and talked about today is obvious.
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And so I think with that, pastorally, we have some choices to make as to how we shepherd through that.
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And there are some different ways that people are trying to do that, some more helpful than others.
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Yeah.
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So it's interesting, AJ, when I think about that, how even that whole journey can be somewhat subjective.
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Obviously, who that person is, their background, their family of origins, maybe even their temperament, previous church context, all those different variables that you're bringing into the situation, you know, on the other side.
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For Drew and I, when we were planting a church in the rubble of Mars Hill, you know, that it honestly the first couple of years just felt like a giant recovery ministry in some ways to me, much more than a church that was driven by a grand vision or mission or strategy.
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It was it was like a support group of can we just gather together to reaffirm the very basics and I still believe that God loves us and is for us, hence the name of the church redemption.
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But the other thing that I always found fascinating was how there were all sorts of folks that were at our church that were at Mars Hill.
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And for some of them, the experience was not that unsettling.
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They would be like, you know, what's the big deal?
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Let's just move forward.
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And then for others, that exact same experience was catastrophic to their faith, to the point of I feel completely rattled and everything and everything's disoriented and up in the air.
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And uh it just made me marvel at just how subjective that is to the person and and their experience.
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So I'm just curious when you hear about that.
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I know you probably maybe experienced something similar where you were encountering folks that had very diverse reactions to uh similar situations at the Marseille you were at and uh what you saw or maybe what you you gleaned from that.
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Yeah, I think I think the invitation and all of that is to is to recenter around, okay, who who is Jesus?
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And then to work out from there.
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You know, often what happens is you have strand, like strands of incoherence.
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And at one one time they all sort of made sense together, but now that X, Y, PQ have happened, I can't fit these strands back together as like a coherent whole.
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And that then starts to deconstruct like, what do I believe about creation and the existence of time on earth?
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And what do I believe about the afterlife and you know, the rapture, or what do I believe about sexuality, et cetera, et cetera?
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We can go on and on.
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And I I am always encouraging people, and this is what I did at Mars Hill, is to try to say, hey, listen, like, let's not try to like make a coherence out of all the strands that we picked up along the way.
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By the way, rapture theory is really new in the context of history.
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Why don't we start with Jesus and work outward from there?
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And when we can't, when we find too much like division as we work outward, let's just come back to him and let's figure out a way to stay together uh in the marrow of of what this, of what this union, this communion is.
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And so that's one of the reasons I'm an Anglican because we weren't birthed out of a theological awakening of like Westminster, which I'm not opposed to.
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I was ordained Presbyterian back in the day.
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We were birthed out of a desire to practice prayer and and to follow Jesus in a kind of a wider tent that was able to hold a lot of different strands of like Armenianism, Calvinism, et cetera, under the same tent.
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I'm attracted to that.
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I'm attracted to like bridge building, but not bridge building to the point where we're cutting off the limb we sit on that Jesus is the Lord and King and rightful, you know, maker of the universe.
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Like, how do we find where we agree on?
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And is it strong enough enough to keep us together?
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And was it strong enough to keep the early church together?
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I'm very interested in in those sorts of enterprises today when it comes to the church.
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Yeah.
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I think that's really good.
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Uh, I hope if you're listening and just thinking about that and have been in similar conversations with folks, and I know even my own life, a number of years ago, you know, I was turning 40, uh, Drew and I were having these conversations, another friend of ours named Justin, who we were we were all talking about a second ago, of just reaching that critical journey of hitting the wall in life in some ways, and just having to say, if I'm going to tear a lot of things down and remove them, can I just focus and center it on the question and did Jesus rise from the dead?
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And uh just starting at first principles or even just first theological principles and just going, well, if everything else gets stripped away, can I come back to that question and really have a reckoning with it before I swing at and maybe get all worked up about the things that are a little bit more ancillary?
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So that's really good.
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Uh, you know, one question I would ask you too, AJ, on top of that is maybe as we back up for a second, would you define for us or give us some texture around deconstruction?
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Uh, because I think that word might have semantic overload a little bit at times, of people are importing their own definition onto it.
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Uh some of it might be I'm leaving the faith.
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Uh maybe I never was a Christian.
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Some of it might just be I'm asking hard questions.
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I've got legitimate questions that I want to get answers to.
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For some, it's maybe an institution or a pastor hurt me.
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So, how would you define it?
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And what's a good definition as we're we're having this conversation?
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Yeah, so in its best terms, let's think about it as removing the complexity.
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Like over time, it's a fight to center the simplicity.
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And we and that's these strands that we're trying to keep together in so many ways that that fall.
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So so deconstruction at its best, I think, is removing the complexity that sort of accumulates over time and discovering like what is the essence here?
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What is the center here?
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Do I have a center?
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If by deconstruction, Alan Noble said in his recent book, we mean a process of carefully analyzing unexamined beliefs.
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I think it's really great, you know, in the theological world, not to nerd out, that's called embedded theology.
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And it's just kind of theology we've picked up along the way and added to our backpack.
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And deconstruction is about beginning to analyze what do I like, what wait, is this the weights I want to carry?
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Because we should carry, but like, is this the weight I want to carry?
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But if by deconstruction we mean like, you know, responding to previous fundamentalist Christians or whatever, by like, you know, utilizing as a path to like, you know, smoke weed and be sexually promiscuous.
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Like, that's probably not an authentic journey of trying to figure out what you truly believe about the essence of being a human being.
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So I think you have to question, like, in the midst of deconstructing, which which I've done and at times do, is like, what's my motive here?
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Is my motive like like total independence?
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I am my own God, I get to do what I want.
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You know, if it's kind of like a rebellion, I think you should learn and own that and discern that.
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But if it truly is a quest to say, my backpack's really full of a lot of things I'm not sure are helpful for me, or that I even believe it's sort of like grandpa's religion.
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I think that's a really beautiful quest that you should make.
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You know, I used to tell people we did a whole series on it back in 16 at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids.
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We called it reclamation.
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And the idea was that like you should at some point in your life go through deconstruction.
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It's healthy, it's like the strip in Las Vegas.
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You should pass through, but you can't make a life there.
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Like eventually he lived there.
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That may be true.
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I'm from Las Vegas.
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Like this, like you lived on the strip.
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I think it's rather you can live.
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But I've taken Drew down there a few times and he got out of control.
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So eventually, you're right.
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I did have to remove him from the strip.
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So AJ shared something really good, and my obtrusive thoughts got the best of me.
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Good.
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Sorry about that.
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Yes.
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But you know, I just say, like, throughout the scriptures, doubt is always validated as part of the journey, but doubt is never celebrated as the destination.
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You know, it's always an invitation to reinvest faith.
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And by faith, I don't mean a collection of ideas.
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I mean trust.
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Like at the end of the day, like, what do you trust?
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Who do you trust?
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That's really the the the tellos, the goal of deconstruction is to, is to examine what it is that ultimately, what do I, what do I trust?
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What am I rooted into and and do I what do I believe is ultimately true about the world?
00:14:58.480 --> 00:14:58.960
So good.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:14:59.759
That's so good.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:10.720
Yeah, for me, you know, and and I love what you just said there, because I think that if you asked, if you asked 10 different people what is deconstruction in the faith, and they had any idea around that, they might give you 10 different answers.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:15.279
And I think for a lot of people, it is this you're deconstructing that means that you are.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.080
And for some people, this is what they're doing, but I think you're right.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:33.919
That's not a genuine journey of deconstruction in the way that it's intended or in a healthy way, is that it's not just saying, well, I no longer want anything to do with this, or you know, my faith has been shattered in this way because of this external reality or circumstance.
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.399
And now I'm laying it down and I'm thinking about whether I want to pick it back up.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:46.720
For me, growing up in a pretty fundamental household, it was really important for me to deconstruct, I think, in a in a in a healthy way.
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:53.679
And I think is what you're illuminating is what it's intended for, was to say, okay, what things, you know, have got added to that backpack.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:16:06.879
And I did this in college, was like, what of those things do I really not believe to be true, um, that are not attached to the faith in an honest, biblically accurate way.
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.480
And it can be a really beautiful and healthy thing, like you just said.
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.240
And so I think that that defining what is this really?
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.840
What is it intended to be?
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.320
That it's actually a very human thing.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:19.840
Because this isn't a new thing.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:26.720
I think you I think it's wired into our DNA to ask questions and to say what's true, what's not.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:34.720
I think that either a lot of us are just completely scared of that because we're afraid if we start asking questions that our faith is going to completely unravel.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.639
And I'd love for you to speak into that.
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:40.960
For the person who actually, maybe that's a great question, instead of me rambling, let me just ask you this.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:51.360
What a lot of people listening and a lot of people that are in our churches probably should do some healthy deconstructing, but there are things that are holding them back from going there and asking those questions.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:51.759
Yeah.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.840
What would you what would you speak into that?
00:16:54.080 --> 00:17:02.080
I think sometimes deconstruction is God's way of shedding the ego that lives inside our religion and to learn to open ourselves up.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:08.400
You know, when Jesus defines eternal life, there's one place in the Gospel of John where Jesus defines eternal life.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.240
And it's not a collection of the ideas that we hold to go somewhere when we die.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:20.960
Um, it is a person that eternal life is to know him, it's to be in contact with the Messiah through the spirit.
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:36.000
And I think the most beautiful invitation of having the courage to go into this process of shedding the ego, the ego that can live inside our religion is it eliminates all of the things that we're falsely clinging to that are not him.
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.640
And over time, you can reconstruct things like spiritual practices and a community of faith.
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.000
Like we need those things.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.559
But those things are also not him.
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.000
So the things that were once a tool can become a crutch.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.680
And it's discerning: do I have crutches here or do I have tools that lead me to him and to knowing him?
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:00.640
For me, that is the invitation that deconstruction in its most beautiful form can actually help us reconstruct.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.200
But again, like I think some discernment needs to take place of where does my ego have an opportunity to hide within the system?
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:08.880
And do I need to cling to those things?
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:16.160
I love that passage where it's so cryptic where Jesus says at the end, you know, he's he's already risen and he says, Don't cling to me.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:21.599
And I wonder if he means by that, like, don't cling to the idea of who you want me to be for you.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.200
Don't cling to the old ideas of what you held about me.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:31.759
Something new is in your midst, and you're gonna have to trust and you're gonna have to fall into me.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.319
And it's not, it's not gonna feel safe or comfortable.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.000
It's gonna feel really unnerving.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:46.799
And I think that might be ultimately what higher levels of spiritual formation and our our growth as a human being lead us toward is some unknowing and trusting him in the midst of that.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:47.599
What do you think?
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.559
Yeah, yeah, I'm uh maybe I'm gonna process this out loud.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.960
I'm just kind of provoked by this as I'm hearing you talk, AJ.
00:18:53.200 --> 00:19:01.440
Is some of this maybe just uh the natural result of uh us going through life stages in general?
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.359
That it's not God who's changing.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.200
Uh, we know that theologically, but as we change, you know, think of our marriage.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.799
I mean, if you if we wanted to extrapolate a little bit for a second, we could say our marriages deconstruct a little bit.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.839
Uh, I'm coming up on my 22nd wedding anniversary.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:24.960
And the beliefs and the things I needed from my wife when we were 21 look different than they do in our mid-40s.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:34.240
So they they come with different assumptions and different values, and there's things we've had to let go of and things we've had to grieve, and things we've had to adapt and change.
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:42.160
And uh, I wonder if just maybe some of this is more normal for any relationship as as humans progress and and move forward.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:59.279
And maybe we shouldn't be as scared about it as we think, as long as I think we walk this out in what I love that you're really advocating for inside of meaningful spiritual disciplines, staying in deep communion with Jesus and uh having community that can guide us through those moments.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.960
So kind of curious what you think of that as I, you know, I'm just listening to you talk.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:12.480
It made me feel so so I offer spiritual direction, and I can't tell you the amount of people that are trying to get back to a feeling they had.
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:17.599
You know, it kind of goes alongside your your relationship with your your your spouse motif.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.720
It's like the true maturity isn't for you to get back to the butterflies.
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:24.160
If those come wonderful.
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.440
But it's kind of like a deeper knowing of your spouse.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.920
It's a deeper knowing of the Holy Spirit as we walk that is open to feelings, but isn't dependent on them.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:52.880
And I think some of this is a way that we go through through doubts as a way of shedding some of that stuff and living into some some new depth of our dynamic that is, that is open to experiences and feelings, but not ultimately so tethered to them as the as the thing that keeps us safe in the center of who he is.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:53.359
Yeah.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.039
So your relationship metaphor, I think, speaks volumes.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.680
Drew, what's your thoughts to both of our suggestions here?
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:00.880
Yeah, no, no, no.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.480
I love what you guys are saying.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.720
I I do.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:17.599
I think that as we I think about it in terms of what comes to mind first is kind of just a sanctification lens of as we're continuing to be sanctified and as we're continuing to grow in different ways and we're learning in different ways, that there should be those.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:22.000
I think about them as sort of those crossroads where we need to ask those questions.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.480
I mean, even in I'm not pivoting, but I was talking with someone the other day about reformed theology.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:45.680
And I was I was just saying, I think that for a lot of people, you know, in a reformed camp, things have gotten really the fists have gotten really clenched, and there's an unwillingness to even go to certain places and ask certain questions based out of fear, based out of rigidity, whatever it may be.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:55.920
But at the true essence of reformed theology is this idea of always reforming, meaning that there's always this asking of is this true?
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.759
Is there something I'm missing?
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:59.759
Is there something that I haven't picked up?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:08.880
On is there something I need to lay down for the heart of wanting to be as close to the heart of God as possible and to his word and to his truth?
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.960
And so that willingness to go there.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.480
And so I I I do.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:30.480
I think that I think that there probably is some correlation for a lot of people of as we as not just as we age, but maybe as we continue to grow, that there are places along the way where it's natural to say, this is a this is a place where I'm gonna take a healthy pit stop and I'm gonna ask some really meaningful questions about my faith and life.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:35.680
And in a way that's not abandoning the faith, but I think in some ways it can be really strengthening to the faith.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:35.920
Yeah.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:54.000
Yeah, I'm I'm curious, Drew, as I'm hearing you talk, and I don't know how much you guys have read or thought about, I think it was probably Carl Jung who wrote on this a long time ago about often just the masculine journey, but I think you could apply it more generally of uh just a lot of our life, the formation 20s and 30s, he would define it very much.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:01.279
You're in that uh that warrior phase and just trying to make your mark on the world and achieve and accomplish, put some skins on the wall.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:08.799
And and as you get a little bit older, you move into like that that king phase, and maybe you're looking to administrate and have things under your dominion.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:17.759
But he identified in some ways, and eventually you have to go below the line if you're gonna go to the next places that the that you need to go to as a whole person and you need to become a lover and a sage.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:30.000
And I'm thinking sometimes, and AJ, it sounds like you maybe walk people through some of these moments and spiritual formation and guiding them of uh transitioning from some of those phases and giving up some of those identities.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:37.839
I know for me, when the Lord's kind of called me into the next season or phase of my life to give up certain uh behaviors, um, that's scary.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.960
You know, a lot of the identity I often get is in achieving in certain ways.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.839
And when life gets hard, the first thing that comes to mind is I just need to do more of the same.
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.680
I need to double down on my strengths.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:51.680
And uh the exact opposite might be true.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.559
I actually might need to surrender so that I can move on to the next thing the Lord might be calling me to.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.960
Instead of going, it's all about my head and my hands and what I can accomplish to now being a lover of people and a sage.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.519
But that's going to require me to go below the line in some ways.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:19.440
So I wonder how much of this is even just life stage, and as you've guided people through some of those big transitions to see something new, because I think those are very significant moments where someone might be deconstructing, as we've been using the word, or seeing God new, or just letting go of things.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:21.599
That those are fragile and pivotal moments.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:27.279
And I'm just curious how you've stewarded those well or guided and shepherded people well through those transitions.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:33.680
Yeah, those stages you talked about are are really well thought through in Eldridge's book, Fathered by God.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.480
Yeah.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.000
And here's here's what I caution people against pastorally.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.039
I think often I want people to be where I am on my journey.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:45.839
And that's what leads to a lot of confusion is that we assume that wherever we are, everyone else needs to be.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.839
And we also always assume that we're further than everybody as well, right?
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.759
So there's uh there's some self-inflation and a lot of that.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:05.839
I think pastorally, it is so helpful to identify where people are on their journey and be willing to step in with them to offer presence, prayer, counsel, and support.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.960
I don't know anyone who was reasoned back into the faith who is sort of deconstructed.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:20.079
I think just as like wounds and plausibility of people lead people out of faith, it's also plausibility of people that lead people back into King Jesus.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:30.559
It's rarely like, oh, I'm gonna read Aquinas and reesta re-establish, maybe, but it's often like, wow, like I really begin to see that you can live the humble way of Jesus out.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:35.119
And there's some people around me that are that are doing that in obviously ways that depend on grace.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:44.319
So I have seen in those stages what is required is like fearless courage that refuses to cling to things that aren't him.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:46.960
And I think people are really scared of that.
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:55.279
I think people, if they haven't deconstructed or they fear deconstruction, it's because they think somehow, if they do that, they're betraying Jesus.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:26:01.680
And I would just say it might actually be the genuine pursuit of deconstruction to reclaim him in the first place.
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:16.400
And, you know, I just think wherever people are in their journey, they deserve to be pastored and cared for and heard out rather than just denounced and, you know, given sort of sermon series where they sort of man up and get their theological act together.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:21.359
I think people are struggling with real wounds that are rooted in the uniquenesses of their journeys.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:31.039
So, you know, I would say for any pastors listening, for people they're walking with that are in their churches that are deconstructing, and sometimes people deconstructing are really wounding and painful as well.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:37.599
It is, I think, the pastoral imperative for us to come alongside of them and to listen deeply.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:47.359
It was my I was in New York City a long time ago with a network of churches there, and some of my, some of the other pastors and all of our plants, they were invited to spend some time with Pope Francis.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:55.440
And it was really encouraging because here's the Catholic Pope inviting Protestants into a deep conversation in a small room around unity in the church today.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:01.759
So my Protestant friends went and they came back, and I was like, So what did what did he tell you?
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:10.000
You know, and one of them said, he told us the most important ministry in the 21st century is the ministry of the ear.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:17.680
That we have got to learn to listen better and to truly step into the stories of people's real lives.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.839
And from there we can help rebuild.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:29.039
But if we don't know the particulars of people's journeys and the contours of their story, we can, I think, inflict violence without meaning to.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.640
And pastorally, I care about that.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:43.279
And that's more exhausting and time-intensive, but it's actually when you think about it, it's probably less if it means we're inflicting wounds, and though we're well-intentioned, can be really harmful.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:50.720
So I think the ministry of the ear for pastors listening is, you know, we spend a lot of time speaking and talking and thinking and writing.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:57.279
Learning to listen has to be part of our toolkit as we think about ministering well in churches today.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.599
I wanted to ask one question around that.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.519
I'm sure Ryan might have a follow-up too.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.079
I'm thinking about our real experiences.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:16.240
I remember we still had, or we had, you know, probably a group of people in our church that we planted that were really struggling with their faith.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:26.960
I think that they would say, looking back, or we would say, even assessing what was going on, is it for some people, it was their faith was far too attached to something that was not Jesus, right?
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.119
And they were a part of the church.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:30.640
We were pastoring them.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:36.960
And then this word started to pop up over and over and over again, which became really challenging.
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.960
It was this, it was this word process, and not in a healthy way.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:56.000
It was anytime a question would be asked, it was, I'm in process, I'm in process, which in a lot of ways was being used as a defense mechanism to say, hey, don't ask me too much or don't prod too much because I'm in process.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:02.240
And yet there was a misunderstanding because process means you're actually going somewhere and they really weren't going anywhere.
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.480
It was just the stalemate between them and God, and there was no process.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.400
It was just their way of kind of creating a defense.
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:23.680
So, my question with this, because I think you're right, I think, especially with the pastor and with those who just care for one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, that listening ear for pastors, especially, what do we do when people might have that wound?
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:32.319
And so it's not necessarily the healthy deconstruction, or it doesn't start that way, but it's the more I don't know that I want you to get that close, but I'm still showing up.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:33.119
I'm still here.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.359
Do we just do we back off?
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:42.720
Do we just continue to listen and show that we're, you know, we're here, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna really push at all.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.319
What do we do in those situations?
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:49.119
Because I at least that's what I experienced was a lot of people saying, hey, as I would ask questions, how are you doing?
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:49.920
How's this going?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.759
I'm in process, so don't kind of step into my grass here.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.039
Like stay on your side of the lawn.
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.119
This is where I think pastors need to become ninjas in discernment.
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.359
You know, you wrote a great book on grief.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.559
Invisible grief was deeply helpful.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.559
And you know that in grief, like people can't process new information.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.599
It's not a good time to make people sign bottom lines.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.799
Like, grief has its own timeline.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:37.440
And so people that have been wounded, which is often a domino in the tumble of deconstructing, it is pastorally an art form to learn to discern are they statio where they are right now because they're they're bypassing, or are they still in a season where they don't, they don't need to fix stuff and figure, they just need to be for a while.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:46.000
And I don't know that there's an answer to that other than the Holy Spirit gives us impressions and wisdom to know when to speak and when to listen.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.960
And that is a subjective, I think, call of what it means to be relational as pastors again.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.200
Once again, a lot of we've designed in the modern world churches that pastors can't possibly be relational.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:02.000
So we lead programs, you know, and there's no vision for pastoral care amongst the lady.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.279
It's just like come to this program and hopefully we'll batch your formation.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:16.880
But reclaiming churches that walk with people like you do at One Fellowship, sitting with people, helping them discern where they are in their own story and what might be life-giving.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:20.720
I do find in the midst of that, asking questions is better than making statements.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:26.640
Because when someone has investment in their own self-discovery, it's so much more fruitful.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.200
When we are trying to solve people's questions by giving them answers all the time, sometimes that's probably required.
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:36.720
Self-discovery is a motivation factor in of itself.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:43.119
And like when I teach my daughter to learn her own math by showing her the principles, it's so much more helpful than giving her the answers.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.039
That's not going to help her on the test.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:56.799
So, your question, I think, requires discernment, art, time, and being with people in a way that, you know, isn't common in our efficiency in the church today.
00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.400
So I think it depends on the person and where they are in their process of grief.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:00.720
Good.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.960
Hey Jay, I got uh just one last question for you on this whole theme and topic.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.079
And I know we could spend lots of time unpacking this from all sorts of different angles.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:08.880
And I think you're right.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:18.400
Like so much of this is us being willing to sit with folks and truly practice the care of souls and not rush things along or look for uh clear, quick, and easy answers.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:26.400
Um, at the beginning of our conversation, you talked about even motivations inside of these journeys, these critical journeys that every single one of us walks through.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:35.359
And I've always been a bit of a GK Chesterton fan, and he's got that famous line about fences and the idea that before you tear one down, you should first understand why it was built.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:55.279
And so I'm just thinking when you've had those conversations with particularly maybe even young men or young women, and uh, they're trying to sort through what really is legitimate deconstruction and what might just be emotional frustration, disappointment, cynicism, hurt along the way that maybe they've picked up, or even just idealism that hasn't come together.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:03.759
I know we were all young at one point, and you're heading into church, and you think it's gonna be amazing, and you're gonna take over the world, and then you get humbled along the way.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:18.480
So I'm just curious what those coffee conversations look like for you of saying, hey, before we take that down and we do deconstruct, uh, and it sounds like even the tradition you're in, you've got a rich tradition and appreciation for history of knowing why that fence was built to begin with.
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.000
So I want them to do two things.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:30.079
I want them to think about their lives five years from now, and imagine if you stay in this current pattern on this current trajectory, where does it lead in five years?
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.000
Where do you imagine yourself being?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.559
You're perfectly situated to get the results you will in five years.
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:36.079
So where will you be in five years?
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:36.240
Right.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.240
Some of that's abstract and hard to discern, but some of it will get them, right?
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.039
Yeah, I like that is then looking back.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:45.200
Imagine yourself in five years.
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:46.720
What are you telling yourself now?
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:54.720
What is the wisdom of you at 40 telling your 35-year-old self if you could only see from the altitude of this place, right?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:02.559
And I think that's a really great, haunting, like couple questions that kind of stick in the soul that they carry in the car and in the quiet moments.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:08.559
And we truly do have a spatial orientation of a future orientation or a reflective orientation.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:18.320
And so getting both of those things at work in them, I think is really helpful for them to see, like, man, I don't, I don't know that the current trajectory of mine is going to be helpful if I'm still on those same path in five years.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.000
And that's a self-discovery.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:31.599
So I think those are the things that I'm trying to do when I do direction with young people is just help them kind of gain some altitude to live above the weeds of their everyday life, just trying to survive the day.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:40.400
And I find that to be fruitful and non-judgmental, you know, where they can kind of become agents in their own life in terms of where they're going and what they're about.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.360
That's awesome.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.960
That's great, AJ.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:45.840
Man, we so appreciate this conversation.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:47.599
And I think it's an important one to have.
00:34:47.679 --> 00:35:08.400
And what I appreciate about what you've said, I mean, you said so many good things, but I think having a right view of deconstruction in its healthiest sense, I think what you said at the beginning is so critically important and such a healthy starting point of essentially what are, you know, clinging to Jesus and that being a center point.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:22.559
And I think that that gives us, I think that gives us a lot of freedom, healthy freedom and flexibility and even that resiliency built in to say, okay, I can, you know, I say this because I have this picture in my mind.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:39.039
I've been watching this show called Um for the Good of Mankind, and it's on Apple TV, and it's all about, you know, what if the space race didn't end and they're continuing, and there was this uh this journey that they were doing on the on the moon, and essentially the astronauts saying, No, I think I can go a little bit further.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:40.880
Like they were, they were safety in.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.039
It was like, let me let me go a little bit further here.
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.159
There's safety in that.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:50.079
And I think that when we're centered on Jesus and we hold on to that tightly and we make it really simple.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:36:03.360
I love that word at the beginning, like simplify it, you know, instead of jumping into instead of jumping into all of these other maybe theological nuances and pieces that are that are not necessarily primary.
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:09.840
Like let's let's hold on to the main things, let's look at that, let's um unpack the backpack when needed.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.280
And I think this is just so good.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:11.840
Yeah.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.519
Thank you for talking with us today.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.199
Like thanks for having this conversation.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:23.280
And thanks for what you're doing with walking in walking with people pastorally and just a relational sensibility in doing that.
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:24.320
I think that's so good.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.440
If you're listening to this, I think there's a lot of things you could pick up on this.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:42.960
And if you're if you're somebody who's walking through and maybe your faith feels a little thin or there's questions around that, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of good that you can grab on to as a starting point or as a process point, but holding on to God's goodness in the midst of that.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:51.119
And um, and I yeah, I don't know if you're gonna say something, AJ, or not, but I I also appreciate that God is big enough to handle it.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:52.480
It's so true.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:55.679
Yeah.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:03.199
And for pastors listening, like it's so important to have people in your life that can handle you.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.360
And and you know, we're all on a trajectory of growth.
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:19.199
And in that, sometimes addition is subtraction, and to have people in your life that that will listen, because not all pastors feel supported within their traditions or their networks or their elders or whatever, whatever, right?
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:26.559
Because pastors too are on a journey, and that's really important to be authentic about that journey and to be able to not fake it your whole ministry.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:27.280
That's so good.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:32.159
Hey, before we wrap up here, on another note, and and I don't know if you can share anything at all.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.480
I know that you're working on um new at least a new project or new projects.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:40.800
I know that you have a contract, a new contract with Carper Holland, Carper Collins.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.360
Gosh, not Carper Hollins, Harper Collins.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:44.239
What are you working on?
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:49.280
Can you share any snippets about that, or is it secrecy and just completely under wraps?
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:50.239
Anyway, yeah.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:55.039
I mean, we have a text in scripture that shows us how Jesus arranged his day for power to flow.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:01.599
So I'm asking questions like, you know, because we're understanding flow states now from like a psychological and performative level.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.360
Is there a way to think about this spiritually?
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.280
You know, Jesus flowed power.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.760
Was that because he like had a cheat code?
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:16.239
I want to suggest that there was something that Jesus did in the arrangement of his day that allowed power to flow from his life.
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:20.880
And that that that's the call of the follower of Jesus is to learn his way.
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:22.400
And so that's what I'm writing about right now.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:23.039
Awesome.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.039
Well, you can learn, that sounds fantastic.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:28.400
You can learn more about AJ Snag's books.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.039
They're fantastic, ajsher.org.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.719
And we'll look forward to that new project.
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.480
But seriously, thank you for joining us today.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:38.800
Ryan, thanks for showing back up.
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:40.719
You're just keeping it here to be here.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:42.400
We'll see week by week, man.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.039
If the Lord wills, as James said.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:45.760
Fantastic.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:51.760
Well, hey everybody, thanks for joining us here on Still Becoming, where Grace Meets the Unfinished conversations about faith in real life.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.199
I hope you've been really encouraged by today's conversation with Dr.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:56.880
Pastor AJ Cheryl.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:01.119
And thank you for Key Life, keylife.org for sponsoring this podcast.
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.679
And if you do find yourself in this place of asking questions, know that you're in a safe spot with that.
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.719
If that's big enough for it, cling to Jesus, and be willing to go there.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:09.920
Don't be scared of that.
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:18.000
If you're walking alongside somebody and you're not sure exactly what to do in the midst of where they are in their journey, be a listening ear and be a constant presence.
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:22.639
What I like to tell people is just keep showing up, keep showing the grace and love of Jesus and the care of Jesus.
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:23.760
Thanks for joining us.
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:30.000
We look forward to not seeing you because we can't see you, but we look forward to you joining us again here on Still.
00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.919
All right, and welcome back to Still Becoming.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:19.359
Another episode where we are talking about race meeting the unfinished conversations, about faith in real life.
00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.559
And Key Life is sponsoring us, which is fantastic.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:24.239
I've tried to get other sponsors.
00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:30.079
I've reached out to places like KFC, like Taco Bell, like Mountain Dew.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:32.079
No one wants to be a part of this.
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I'm still waiting on MySpace to get back to me.
00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:38.719
But Key Life right now and its network is sponsoring this.
00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:39.600
We're so thankful for them.
00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:41.200
Go to KeyLife.org.
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Some great resources, great articles, very grace-based.
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You will love it.
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I'm thrilled today.
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We have a special guest on here.
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He's a friend and incredible pastor, author, has an incredible heart for people.
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His name is AJ Sherrill, and I should say Dr.
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A.J.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.600
Sherrill.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:04.879
He is right down the road from me, actually.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:10.159
But let me introduce him really quickly so you know a little bit more about him if you're not familiar.
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He has more than 25 years of experience as a pastor.
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He's led churches in cities such as New York, Lay, also as lead pastor at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
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And he is now the lead pastor at St.
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Peter's Church here in Charleston, South Carolina, where I'm based out of.
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He has served as adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he teaches popular courses on transformational preaching and the Enneagram.
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He is also the author of the Enneagram for Spiritual Formation, Rediscovering Christmas, which I absolutely loved, this last advent.
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I know that we're in May, but go ahead and buy it.
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Get on Amazon and snag it.
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And being with God.
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AJ, welcome.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Thank you for being willing to spend any time with Ryan and I on this podcast.
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Yeah, it's a joy, y'all.
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It's a tall task to encourage your listeners to pick up a Christmas book in May, but I appreciate the nod there nonetheless.
00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:05.280
Doing it.
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:06.000
I'm doing it.
00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:06.959
Christmas in July.
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:08.159
Oh, Mark's.
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That's right.
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Marks right around the corner.
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That's right.
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Also, if you're not familiar with this podcast, my name's Drew.
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I'm a pastor author as well here in Charleston, South Carolina.
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And Ryan, our other host, is a pastor.
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I'm also an author.
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I write lots of tweets and uh love letters to my wife, and she enjoys them.
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So, you know.
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Hey, at least they're red.
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They are red.
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You're right.
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I like that.
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Yeah.
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I didn't buy them in bulk either to get on the New York Times bestseller list.
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So yeah.
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Man.
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Well, Ryan's a pastor and an author of love letters, and he's in Texas at uh Stone Gate Church, which is fantastic.
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But I think they originally at GPT the content for your love letters, or are these original content?
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That's a good idea.
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Good question.
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You know, you got to keep some of those, uh, some of those secrets a little close to the vest.
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So, you know, but might might use a little help there every now and then.
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My goodness.
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If you're curious about what we're gonna be talking about today, we're actually having what I think is a fascinating conversation um around deconstruction and reconstruction of the faith.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.840
This is something that is um, I wouldn't say a hot topic.
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It's been a topic for forever, but I would say it's a growing topic.
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I think it's also something that could be a little bit misunderstood.
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And so we're gonna have a great conversation around that.
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But before we get to that, maybe the most important question.
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And for other guests, we've asked them what is your or what's the best movie or TV show you've seen lately.
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But here's what I know about AJ.
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AJ loves food.
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And I've seen pictures of some of the food that he's made, and it is fantastic.
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As a compliment, AJ loves food.
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No, it's good.
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Okay, here we go.
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Let me let me say this.
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AJ John Candy remixed.
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I am the new John Candy.
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He loves food kind of stuff.
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Properly ordered, yeah, yeah, properly ordered, very Augustinian.
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Yeah.
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Yes, yes.
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So our question for you is um, what is the best thing that you've eaten lately?
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And I know that's a hard question.
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That's a hard question.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.360
But what's what's the best thing you've eaten lately?
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Or it could be the best thing that you've made lately, whatever you want to go with it.
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This was the first place my mind went.
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Drew, you and I both live in Charleston.
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There's a new restaurant called Shikudu downtown.
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It's a Japanese tavern of us.
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And they gave me a deconstructed role that you actually wrap yourself in the seaweed paper.
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And it was, I mean, it was more work than it was worth.
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It was really tasty.
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And that was just like a unique experience.
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I never rolled my own sushi at a restaurant in a way that was like accessible and easy.
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And that was kind of a fun experience, and it added to the value of a meal.
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I love this.
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It's very on brand for today's topic.
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So a deconstructed role.
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Yeah, I like that.
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There you go.
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Yeah, that's that's great.
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We are on it today.
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It all works.
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We're on fire today.
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No, I've heard of that spot.
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That um that popped up on something that I was reading the other day.
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So that's that's fantastic.
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Well, hey, well, let's let's dive into this a little bit.
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Here, here's why I thought it would be great to have this conversation, especially with you, AJ, and Ryan and I wanted to have this is we both served at Marshall Churches.
00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:09.680
You served at Mars Hill, you you stepped in and were leading that church all the way up until COVID.
00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:16.720
Following, you know, Rob Bell was a pastor there, he had left, another pastor had stepped in, and then you came and were leading the church.
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:22.240
And Ryan and I um planted a church post-Mars Hill, Seattle.
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And I would say, you know, in both of our contexts, I think we've had a lot of people who were deconstructing their faith, or they were trying to figure out their faith, or they were even doubtful about what faith looked like for a variety of reasons.
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And I don't think that's changed.
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I I don't think that's, I think that's always been there.
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But I think it is something for either, especially even thinking about this podcast, whether it's the pastor that's listening in, or it's just the person who's listening in.
00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:52.560
And maybe their faith does feel a little bit worn.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:58.800
Maybe it doesn't feel like where it was, or maybe they're stepping into a place where they're like, I really, I really have some questions.
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I have some doubts here for a variety of reasons.
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:14.079
And so, kind of to kick this off, I just in your experience, pastoral experience over the last 20 plus years, 25 years, what do you think are some of the most common catalysts around this idea of deconstruction or this process of deconstruction?
00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.839
Is it intellectual doubt?
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.920
Is it usually something more personal hurt, betrayal, leadership failure?
00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.000
What have you seen around this?
00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:25.360
I think it's uh a cacophony of a lot of contributing factors.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:31.680
The thing that I, the, the leading domino that I often, because these are a lot of dominoes that fall, and they're connected, right?
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:35.199
The leading domino I often see, not always, but often it's a wound.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.040
It's actually not a an instigation of ideas that happens later.
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It's a wound.
00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.480
I think people are plausibility.
00:06:42.720 --> 00:07:08.720
And when the people around us that maybe we followed, we mentored, we looked up to, that held some sort of capital in our spiritual life, when they reveal themselves to have hiddenness, not like good secrecy, but like bad secrecy, I think it's a plausibility structure that like a house of cards comes down and we begin to sort of spiral and question the things that we once felt like were secure through a person or through a people or through an institution.
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:18.959
And so it doesn't surprise me that we're seeing it's not novel deconstruction, but the sort of popularity of it with the sort of rise and fall of all sorts of things, no pun intended.
00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:22.560
That it's so common and prevalent and talked about today is obvious.
00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:28.240
And so I think with that, pastorally, we have some choices to make as to how we shepherd through that.
00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:31.839
And there are some different ways that people are trying to do that, some more helpful than others.
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:32.079
Yeah.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:37.360
So it's interesting, AJ, when I think about that, how even that whole journey can be somewhat subjective.
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:48.319
Obviously, who that person is, their background, their family of origins, maybe even their temperament, previous church context, all those different variables that you're bringing into the situation, you know, on the other side.
00:07:48.560 --> 00:08:01.199
For Drew and I, when we were planting a church in the rubble of Mars Hill, you know, that it honestly the first couple of years just felt like a giant recovery ministry in some ways to me, much more than a church that was driven by a grand vision or mission or strategy.
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:10.639
It was it was like a support group of can we just gather together to reaffirm the very basics and I still believe that God loves us and is for us, hence the name of the church redemption.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:16.560
But the other thing that I always found fascinating was how there were all sorts of folks that were at our church that were at Mars Hill.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.920
And for some of them, the experience was not that unsettling.
00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:21.360
They would be like, you know, what's the big deal?
00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:22.160
Let's just move forward.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:31.439
And then for others, that exact same experience was catastrophic to their faith, to the point of I feel completely rattled and everything and everything's disoriented and up in the air.
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:36.559
And uh it just made me marvel at just how subjective that is to the person and and their experience.
00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:38.399
So I'm just curious when you hear about that.
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:50.639
I know you probably maybe experienced something similar where you were encountering folks that had very diverse reactions to uh similar situations at the Marseille you were at and uh what you saw or maybe what you you gleaned from that.
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:58.720
Yeah, I think I think the invitation and all of that is to is to recenter around, okay, who who is Jesus?
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:00.480
And then to work out from there.
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:05.200
You know, often what happens is you have strand, like strands of incoherence.
00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:15.919
And at one one time they all sort of made sense together, but now that X, Y, PQ have happened, I can't fit these strands back together as like a coherent whole.
00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:21.360
And that then starts to deconstruct like, what do I believe about creation and the existence of time on earth?
00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:27.759
And what do I believe about the afterlife and you know, the rapture, or what do I believe about sexuality, et cetera, et cetera?
00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:28.639
We can go on and on.
00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:39.120
And I I am always encouraging people, and this is what I did at Mars Hill, is to try to say, hey, listen, like, let's not try to like make a coherence out of all the strands that we picked up along the way.
00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:42.879
By the way, rapture theory is really new in the context of history.
00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.960
Why don't we start with Jesus and work outward from there?
00:09:47.200 --> 00:10:00.559
And when we can't, when we find too much like division as we work outward, let's just come back to him and let's figure out a way to stay together uh in the marrow of of what this, of what this union, this communion is.
00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:09.279
And so that's one of the reasons I'm an Anglican because we weren't birthed out of a theological awakening of like Westminster, which I'm not opposed to.
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:10.960
I was ordained Presbyterian back in the day.
00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:22.559
We were birthed out of a desire to practice prayer and and to follow Jesus in a kind of a wider tent that was able to hold a lot of different strands of like Armenianism, Calvinism, et cetera, under the same tent.
00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:24.000
I'm attracted to that.
00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:34.000
I'm attracted to like bridge building, but not bridge building to the point where we're cutting off the limb we sit on that Jesus is the Lord and King and rightful, you know, maker of the universe.
00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.159
Like, how do we find where we agree on?
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.639
And is it strong enough enough to keep us together?
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:41.039
And was it strong enough to keep the early church together?
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.440
I'm very interested in in those sorts of enterprises today when it comes to the church.
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:45.919
Yeah.
00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:47.120
I think that's really good.
00:10:47.200 --> 00:11:13.120
Uh, I hope if you're listening and just thinking about that and have been in similar conversations with folks, and I know even my own life, a number of years ago, you know, I was turning 40, uh, Drew and I were having these conversations, another friend of ours named Justin, who we were we were all talking about a second ago, of just reaching that critical journey of hitting the wall in life in some ways, and just having to say, if I'm going to tear a lot of things down and remove them, can I just focus and center it on the question and did Jesus rise from the dead?
00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:29.039
And uh just starting at first principles or even just first theological principles and just going, well, if everything else gets stripped away, can I come back to that question and really have a reckoning with it before I swing at and maybe get all worked up about the things that are a little bit more ancillary?
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:30.000
So that's really good.
00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:39.919
Uh, you know, one question I would ask you too, AJ, on top of that is maybe as we back up for a second, would you define for us or give us some texture around deconstruction?
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:46.639
Uh, because I think that word might have semantic overload a little bit at times, of people are importing their own definition onto it.
00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:48.799
Uh some of it might be I'm leaving the faith.
00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:50.399
Uh maybe I never was a Christian.
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.279
Some of it might just be I'm asking hard questions.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.240
I've got legitimate questions that I want to get answers to.
00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.679
For some, it's maybe an institution or a pastor hurt me.
00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.440
So, how would you define it?
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:03.919
And what's a good definition as we're we're having this conversation?
00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:08.159
Yeah, so in its best terms, let's think about it as removing the complexity.
00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:11.120
Like over time, it's a fight to center the simplicity.
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.279
And we and that's these strands that we're trying to keep together in so many ways that that fall.
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:22.399
So so deconstruction at its best, I think, is removing the complexity that sort of accumulates over time and discovering like what is the essence here?
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:23.360
What is the center here?
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:24.480
Do I have a center?
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:32.159
If by deconstruction, Alan Noble said in his recent book, we mean a process of carefully analyzing unexamined beliefs.
00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:36.879
I think it's really great, you know, in the theological world, not to nerd out, that's called embedded theology.
00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:40.720
And it's just kind of theology we've picked up along the way and added to our backpack.
00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:46.159
And deconstruction is about beginning to analyze what do I like, what wait, is this the weights I want to carry?
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.879
Because we should carry, but like, is this the weight I want to carry?
00:12:48.960 --> 00:13:02.399
But if by deconstruction we mean like, you know, responding to previous fundamentalist Christians or whatever, by like, you know, utilizing as a path to like, you know, smoke weed and be sexually promiscuous.
00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:09.600
Like, that's probably not an authentic journey of trying to figure out what you truly believe about the essence of being a human being.
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:17.279
So I think you have to question, like, in the midst of deconstructing, which which I've done and at times do, is like, what's my motive here?
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.639
Is my motive like like total independence?
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:23.039
I am my own God, I get to do what I want.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:28.559
You know, if it's kind of like a rebellion, I think you should learn and own that and discern that.
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:37.200
But if it truly is a quest to say, my backpack's really full of a lot of things I'm not sure are helpful for me, or that I even believe it's sort of like grandpa's religion.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.360
I think that's a really beautiful quest that you should make.
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:47.600
You know, I used to tell people we did a whole series on it back in 16 at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids.
00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:48.960
We called it reclamation.
00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:54.480
And the idea was that like you should at some point in your life go through deconstruction.
00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:59.120
It's healthy, it's like the strip in Las Vegas.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.799
You should pass through, but you can't make a life there.
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.440
Like eventually he lived there.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:07.679
That may be true.
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:09.759
I'm from Las Vegas.
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.480
Like this, like you lived on the strip.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.000
I think it's rather you can live.
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.120
But I've taken Drew down there a few times and he got out of control.
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:18.240
So eventually, you're right.
00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.080
I did have to remove him from the strip.
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.720
So AJ shared something really good, and my obtrusive thoughts got the best of me.
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:25.200
Good.
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:25.679
Sorry about that.
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:26.000
Yes.
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:34.879
But you know, I just say, like, throughout the scriptures, doubt is always validated as part of the journey, but doubt is never celebrated as the destination.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.919
You know, it's always an invitation to reinvest faith.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:39.840
And by faith, I don't mean a collection of ideas.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:40.960
I mean trust.
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.240
Like at the end of the day, like, what do you trust?
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:44.960
Who do you trust?
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:53.840
That's really the the the tellos, the goal of deconstruction is to, is to examine what it is that ultimately, what do I, what do I trust?
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.159
What am I rooted into and and do I what do I believe is ultimately true about the world?
00:14:58.480 --> 00:14:58.960
So good.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:14:59.759
That's so good.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:10.720
Yeah, for me, you know, and and I love what you just said there, because I think that if you asked, if you asked 10 different people what is deconstruction in the faith, and they had any idea around that, they might give you 10 different answers.
00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:15.279
And I think for a lot of people, it is this you're deconstructing that means that you are.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.080
And for some people, this is what they're doing, but I think you're right.
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:33.919
That's not a genuine journey of deconstruction in the way that it's intended or in a healthy way, is that it's not just saying, well, I no longer want anything to do with this, or you know, my faith has been shattered in this way because of this external reality or circumstance.
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.399
And now I'm laying it down and I'm thinking about whether I want to pick it back up.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:46.720
For me, growing up in a pretty fundamental household, it was really important for me to deconstruct, I think, in a in a in a healthy way.
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:53.679
And I think is what you're illuminating is what it's intended for, was to say, okay, what things, you know, have got added to that backpack.
00:15:53.759 --> 00:16:06.879
And I did this in college, was like, what of those things do I really not believe to be true, um, that are not attached to the faith in an honest, biblically accurate way.
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.480
And it can be a really beautiful and healthy thing, like you just said.
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:14.240
And so I think that that defining what is this really?
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.840
What is it intended to be?
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.320
That it's actually a very human thing.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:19.840
Because this isn't a new thing.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:26.720
I think you I think it's wired into our DNA to ask questions and to say what's true, what's not.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:34.720
I think that either a lot of us are just completely scared of that because we're afraid if we start asking questions that our faith is going to completely unravel.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.639
And I'd love for you to speak into that.
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:40.960
For the person who actually, maybe that's a great question, instead of me rambling, let me just ask you this.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:51.360
What a lot of people listening and a lot of people that are in our churches probably should do some healthy deconstructing, but there are things that are holding them back from going there and asking those questions.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:51.759
Yeah.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.840
What would you what would you speak into that?
00:16:54.080 --> 00:17:02.080
I think sometimes deconstruction is God's way of shedding the ego that lives inside our religion and to learn to open ourselves up.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:08.400
You know, when Jesus defines eternal life, there's one place in the Gospel of John where Jesus defines eternal life.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.240
And it's not a collection of the ideas that we hold to go somewhere when we die.
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:20.960
Um, it is a person that eternal life is to know him, it's to be in contact with the Messiah through the spirit.
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:36.000
And I think the most beautiful invitation of having the courage to go into this process of shedding the ego, the ego that can live inside our religion is it eliminates all of the things that we're falsely clinging to that are not him.
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.640
And over time, you can reconstruct things like spiritual practices and a community of faith.
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:42.000
Like we need those things.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.559
But those things are also not him.
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.000
So the things that were once a tool can become a crutch.
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.680
And it's discerning: do I have crutches here or do I have tools that lead me to him and to knowing him?
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:00.640
For me, that is the invitation that deconstruction in its most beautiful form can actually help us reconstruct.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.200
But again, like I think some discernment needs to take place of where does my ego have an opportunity to hide within the system?
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:08.880
And do I need to cling to those things?
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:16.160
I love that passage where it's so cryptic where Jesus says at the end, you know, he's he's already risen and he says, Don't cling to me.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:21.599
And I wonder if he means by that, like, don't cling to the idea of who you want me to be for you.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.200
Don't cling to the old ideas of what you held about me.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:31.759
Something new is in your midst, and you're gonna have to trust and you're gonna have to fall into me.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.319
And it's not, it's not gonna feel safe or comfortable.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.000
It's gonna feel really unnerving.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:46.799
And I think that might be ultimately what higher levels of spiritual formation and our our growth as a human being lead us toward is some unknowing and trusting him in the midst of that.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:47.599
What do you think?
00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.559
Yeah, yeah, I'm uh maybe I'm gonna process this out loud.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.960
I'm just kind of provoked by this as I'm hearing you talk, AJ.
00:18:53.200 --> 00:19:01.440
Is some of this maybe just uh the natural result of uh us going through life stages in general?
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.359
That it's not God who's changing.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.200
Uh, we know that theologically, but as we change, you know, think of our marriage.
00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.799
I mean, if you if we wanted to extrapolate a little bit for a second, we could say our marriages deconstruct a little bit.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.839
Uh, I'm coming up on my 22nd wedding anniversary.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:24.960
And the beliefs and the things I needed from my wife when we were 21 look different than they do in our mid-40s.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:34.240
So they they come with different assumptions and different values, and there's things we've had to let go of and things we've had to grieve, and things we've had to adapt and change.
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:42.160
And uh, I wonder if just maybe some of this is more normal for any relationship as as humans progress and and move forward.
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:59.279
And maybe we shouldn't be as scared about it as we think, as long as I think we walk this out in what I love that you're really advocating for inside of meaningful spiritual disciplines, staying in deep communion with Jesus and uh having community that can guide us through those moments.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.960
So kind of curious what you think of that as I, you know, I'm just listening to you talk.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:12.480
It made me feel so so I offer spiritual direction, and I can't tell you the amount of people that are trying to get back to a feeling they had.
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:17.599
You know, it kind of goes alongside your your relationship with your your your spouse motif.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.720
It's like the true maturity isn't for you to get back to the butterflies.
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:24.160
If those come wonderful.
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.440
But it's kind of like a deeper knowing of your spouse.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.920
It's a deeper knowing of the Holy Spirit as we walk that is open to feelings, but isn't dependent on them.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:52.880
And I think some of this is a way that we go through through doubts as a way of shedding some of that stuff and living into some some new depth of our dynamic that is, that is open to experiences and feelings, but not ultimately so tethered to them as the as the thing that keeps us safe in the center of who he is.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:53.359
Yeah.
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.039
So your relationship metaphor, I think, speaks volumes.
00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.680
Drew, what's your thoughts to both of our suggestions here?
00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:00.880
Yeah, no, no, no.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.480
I love what you guys are saying.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:04.720
I I do.
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:17.599
I think that as we I think about it in terms of what comes to mind first is kind of just a sanctification lens of as we're continuing to be sanctified and as we're continuing to grow in different ways and we're learning in different ways, that there should be those.
00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:22.000
I think about them as sort of those crossroads where we need to ask those questions.
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.480
I mean, even in I'm not pivoting, but I was talking with someone the other day about reformed theology.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:45.680
And I was I was just saying, I think that for a lot of people, you know, in a reformed camp, things have gotten really the fists have gotten really clenched, and there's an unwillingness to even go to certain places and ask certain questions based out of fear, based out of rigidity, whatever it may be.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:55.920
But at the true essence of reformed theology is this idea of always reforming, meaning that there's always this asking of is this true?
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:57.759
Is there something I'm missing?
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:59.759
Is there something that I haven't picked up?
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:08.880
On is there something I need to lay down for the heart of wanting to be as close to the heart of God as possible and to his word and to his truth?
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.960
And so that willingness to go there.
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.480
And so I I I do.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:30.480
I think that I think that there probably is some correlation for a lot of people of as we as not just as we age, but maybe as we continue to grow, that there are places along the way where it's natural to say, this is a this is a place where I'm gonna take a healthy pit stop and I'm gonna ask some really meaningful questions about my faith and life.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:35.680
And in a way that's not abandoning the faith, but I think in some ways it can be really strengthening to the faith.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:35.920
Yeah.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:54.000
Yeah, I'm I'm curious, Drew, as I'm hearing you talk, and I don't know how much you guys have read or thought about, I think it was probably Carl Jung who wrote on this a long time ago about often just the masculine journey, but I think you could apply it more generally of uh just a lot of our life, the formation 20s and 30s, he would define it very much.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:23:01.279
You're in that uh that warrior phase and just trying to make your mark on the world and achieve and accomplish, put some skins on the wall.
00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:08.799
And and as you get a little bit older, you move into like that that king phase, and maybe you're looking to administrate and have things under your dominion.
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:17.759
But he identified in some ways, and eventually you have to go below the line if you're gonna go to the next places that the that you need to go to as a whole person and you need to become a lover and a sage.
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:30.000
And I'm thinking sometimes, and AJ, it sounds like you maybe walk people through some of these moments and spiritual formation and guiding them of uh transitioning from some of those phases and giving up some of those identities.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:37.839
I know for me, when the Lord's kind of called me into the next season or phase of my life to give up certain uh behaviors, um, that's scary.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:42.960
You know, a lot of the identity I often get is in achieving in certain ways.
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.839
And when life gets hard, the first thing that comes to mind is I just need to do more of the same.
00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.680
I need to double down on my strengths.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:51.680
And uh the exact opposite might be true.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.559
I actually might need to surrender so that I can move on to the next thing the Lord might be calling me to.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.960
Instead of going, it's all about my head and my hands and what I can accomplish to now being a lover of people and a sage.
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.519
But that's going to require me to go below the line in some ways.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:19.440
So I wonder how much of this is even just life stage, and as you've guided people through some of those big transitions to see something new, because I think those are very significant moments where someone might be deconstructing, as we've been using the word, or seeing God new, or just letting go of things.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:21.599
That those are fragile and pivotal moments.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:27.279
And I'm just curious how you've stewarded those well or guided and shepherded people well through those transitions.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:33.680
Yeah, those stages you talked about are are really well thought through in Eldridge's book, Fathered by God.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.480
Yeah.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.000
And here's here's what I caution people against pastorally.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:41.039
I think often I want people to be where I am on my journey.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:45.839
And that's what leads to a lot of confusion is that we assume that wherever we are, everyone else needs to be.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.839
And we also always assume that we're further than everybody as well, right?
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.759
So there's uh there's some self-inflation and a lot of that.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:05.839
I think pastorally, it is so helpful to identify where people are on their journey and be willing to step in with them to offer presence, prayer, counsel, and support.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.960
I don't know anyone who was reasoned back into the faith who is sort of deconstructed.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:20.079
I think just as like wounds and plausibility of people lead people out of faith, it's also plausibility of people that lead people back into King Jesus.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:30.559
It's rarely like, oh, I'm gonna read Aquinas and reesta re-establish, maybe, but it's often like, wow, like I really begin to see that you can live the humble way of Jesus out.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:35.119
And there's some people around me that are that are doing that in obviously ways that depend on grace.
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:44.319
So I have seen in those stages what is required is like fearless courage that refuses to cling to things that aren't him.
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:46.960
And I think people are really scared of that.
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:55.279
I think people, if they haven't deconstructed or they fear deconstruction, it's because they think somehow, if they do that, they're betraying Jesus.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:26:01.680
And I would just say it might actually be the genuine pursuit of deconstruction to reclaim him in the first place.
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:16.400
And, you know, I just think wherever people are in their journey, they deserve to be pastored and cared for and heard out rather than just denounced and, you know, given sort of sermon series where they sort of man up and get their theological act together.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:21.359
I think people are struggling with real wounds that are rooted in the uniquenesses of their journeys.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:31.039
So, you know, I would say for any pastors listening, for people they're walking with that are in their churches that are deconstructing, and sometimes people deconstructing are really wounding and painful as well.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:37.599
It is, I think, the pastoral imperative for us to come alongside of them and to listen deeply.
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:47.359
It was my I was in New York City a long time ago with a network of churches there, and some of my, some of the other pastors and all of our plants, they were invited to spend some time with Pope Francis.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:55.440
And it was really encouraging because here's the Catholic Pope inviting Protestants into a deep conversation in a small room around unity in the church today.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:01.759
So my Protestant friends went and they came back, and I was like, So what did what did he tell you?
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:10.000
You know, and one of them said, he told us the most important ministry in the 21st century is the ministry of the ear.
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:17.680
That we have got to learn to listen better and to truly step into the stories of people's real lives.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.839
And from there we can help rebuild.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:29.039
But if we don't know the particulars of people's journeys and the contours of their story, we can, I think, inflict violence without meaning to.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.640
And pastorally, I care about that.
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:43.279
And that's more exhausting and time-intensive, but it's actually when you think about it, it's probably less if it means we're inflicting wounds, and though we're well-intentioned, can be really harmful.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:50.720
So I think the ministry of the ear for pastors listening is, you know, we spend a lot of time speaking and talking and thinking and writing.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:57.279
Learning to listen has to be part of our toolkit as we think about ministering well in churches today.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.599
I wanted to ask one question around that.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:01.519
I'm sure Ryan might have a follow-up too.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:04.079
I'm thinking about our real experiences.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:16.240
I remember we still had, or we had, you know, probably a group of people in our church that we planted that were really struggling with their faith.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:26.960
I think that they would say, looking back, or we would say, even assessing what was going on, is it for some people, it was their faith was far too attached to something that was not Jesus, right?
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.119
And they were a part of the church.
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:30.640
We were pastoring them.
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:36.960
And then this word started to pop up over and over and over again, which became really challenging.
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.960
It was this, it was this word process, and not in a healthy way.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:56.000
It was anytime a question would be asked, it was, I'm in process, I'm in process, which in a lot of ways was being used as a defense mechanism to say, hey, don't ask me too much or don't prod too much because I'm in process.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:02.240
And yet there was a misunderstanding because process means you're actually going somewhere and they really weren't going anywhere.
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.480
It was just the stalemate between them and God, and there was no process.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:10.400
It was just their way of kind of creating a defense.
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:23.680
So, my question with this, because I think you're right, I think, especially with the pastor and with those who just care for one another as brothers and sisters in Christ, that listening ear for pastors, especially, what do we do when people might have that wound?
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:32.319
And so it's not necessarily the healthy deconstruction, or it doesn't start that way, but it's the more I don't know that I want you to get that close, but I'm still showing up.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:33.119
I'm still here.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:35.359
Do we just do we back off?
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:42.720
Do we just continue to listen and show that we're, you know, we're here, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna really push at all.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.319
What do we do in those situations?
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:49.119
Because I at least that's what I experienced was a lot of people saying, hey, as I would ask questions, how are you doing?
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:49.920
How's this going?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.759
I'm in process, so don't kind of step into my grass here.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.039
Like stay on your side of the lawn.
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.119
This is where I think pastors need to become ninjas in discernment.
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.359
You know, you wrote a great book on grief.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.559
Invisible grief was deeply helpful.
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.559
And you know that in grief, like people can't process new information.
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:11.599
It's not a good time to make people sign bottom lines.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:14.799
Like, grief has its own timeline.
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:37.440
And so people that have been wounded, which is often a domino in the tumble of deconstructing, it is pastorally an art form to learn to discern are they statio where they are right now because they're they're bypassing, or are they still in a season where they don't, they don't need to fix stuff and figure, they just need to be for a while.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:46.000
And I don't know that there's an answer to that other than the Holy Spirit gives us impressions and wisdom to know when to speak and when to listen.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:50.960
And that is a subjective, I think, call of what it means to be relational as pastors again.
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.200
Once again, a lot of we've designed in the modern world churches that pastors can't possibly be relational.
00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:02.000
So we lead programs, you know, and there's no vision for pastoral care amongst the lady.
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.279
It's just like come to this program and hopefully we'll batch your formation.
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:16.880
But reclaiming churches that walk with people like you do at One Fellowship, sitting with people, helping them discern where they are in their own story and what might be life-giving.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:20.720
I do find in the midst of that, asking questions is better than making statements.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:26.640
Because when someone has investment in their own self-discovery, it's so much more fruitful.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.200
When we are trying to solve people's questions by giving them answers all the time, sometimes that's probably required.
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:36.720
Self-discovery is a motivation factor in of itself.
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:43.119
And like when I teach my daughter to learn her own math by showing her the principles, it's so much more helpful than giving her the answers.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.039
That's not going to help her on the test.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:56.799
So, your question, I think, requires discernment, art, time, and being with people in a way that, you know, isn't common in our efficiency in the church today.
00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.400
So I think it depends on the person and where they are in their process of grief.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:00.720
Good.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.960
Hey Jay, I got uh just one last question for you on this whole theme and topic.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.079
And I know we could spend lots of time unpacking this from all sorts of different angles.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:08.880
And I think you're right.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:18.400
Like so much of this is us being willing to sit with folks and truly practice the care of souls and not rush things along or look for uh clear, quick, and easy answers.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:26.400
Um, at the beginning of our conversation, you talked about even motivations inside of these journeys, these critical journeys that every single one of us walks through.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:35.359
And I've always been a bit of a GK Chesterton fan, and he's got that famous line about fences and the idea that before you tear one down, you should first understand why it was built.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:55.279
And so I'm just thinking when you've had those conversations with particularly maybe even young men or young women, and uh, they're trying to sort through what really is legitimate deconstruction and what might just be emotional frustration, disappointment, cynicism, hurt along the way that maybe they've picked up, or even just idealism that hasn't come together.
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:03.759
I know we were all young at one point, and you're heading into church, and you think it's gonna be amazing, and you're gonna take over the world, and then you get humbled along the way.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:18.480
So I'm just curious what those coffee conversations look like for you of saying, hey, before we take that down and we do deconstruct, uh, and it sounds like even the tradition you're in, you've got a rich tradition and appreciation for history of knowing why that fence was built to begin with.
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.000
So I want them to do two things.
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:30.079
I want them to think about their lives five years from now, and imagine if you stay in this current pattern on this current trajectory, where does it lead in five years?
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.000
Where do you imagine yourself being?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.559
You're perfectly situated to get the results you will in five years.
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:36.079
So where will you be in five years?
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:36.240
Right.
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.240
Some of that's abstract and hard to discern, but some of it will get them, right?
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.039
Yeah, I like that is then looking back.
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:45.200
Imagine yourself in five years.
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:46.720
What are you telling yourself now?
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:54.720
What is the wisdom of you at 40 telling your 35-year-old self if you could only see from the altitude of this place, right?
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:02.559
And I think that's a really great, haunting, like couple questions that kind of stick in the soul that they carry in the car and in the quiet moments.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:08.559
And we truly do have a spatial orientation of a future orientation or a reflective orientation.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:18.320
And so getting both of those things at work in them, I think is really helpful for them to see, like, man, I don't, I don't know that the current trajectory of mine is going to be helpful if I'm still on those same path in five years.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.000
And that's a self-discovery.
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:31.599
So I think those are the things that I'm trying to do when I do direction with young people is just help them kind of gain some altitude to live above the weeds of their everyday life, just trying to survive the day.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:40.400
And I find that to be fruitful and non-judgmental, you know, where they can kind of become agents in their own life in terms of where they're going and what they're about.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:41.360
That's awesome.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.960
That's great, AJ.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:45.840
Man, we so appreciate this conversation.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:47.599
And I think it's an important one to have.
00:34:47.679 --> 00:35:08.400
And what I appreciate about what you've said, I mean, you said so many good things, but I think having a right view of deconstruction in its healthiest sense, I think what you said at the beginning is so critically important and such a healthy starting point of essentially what are, you know, clinging to Jesus and that being a center point.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:22.559
And I think that that gives us, I think that gives us a lot of freedom, healthy freedom and flexibility and even that resiliency built in to say, okay, I can, you know, I say this because I have this picture in my mind.
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:39.039
I've been watching this show called Um for the Good of Mankind, and it's on Apple TV, and it's all about, you know, what if the space race didn't end and they're continuing, and there was this uh this journey that they were doing on the on the moon, and essentially the astronauts saying, No, I think I can go a little bit further.
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:40.880
Like they were, they were safety in.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:43.039
It was like, let me let me go a little bit further here.
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.159
There's safety in that.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:50.079
And I think that when we're centered on Jesus and we hold on to that tightly and we make it really simple.
00:35:50.239 --> 00:36:03.360
I love that word at the beginning, like simplify it, you know, instead of jumping into instead of jumping into all of these other maybe theological nuances and pieces that are that are not necessarily primary.
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:09.840
Like let's let's hold on to the main things, let's look at that, let's um unpack the backpack when needed.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:11.280
And I think this is just so good.
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:11.840
Yeah.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.519
Thank you for talking with us today.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.199
Like thanks for having this conversation.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:23.280
And thanks for what you're doing with walking in walking with people pastorally and just a relational sensibility in doing that.
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:24.320
I think that's so good.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.440
If you're listening to this, I think there's a lot of things you could pick up on this.
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:42.960
And if you're if you're somebody who's walking through and maybe your faith feels a little thin or there's questions around that, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of good that you can grab on to as a starting point or as a process point, but holding on to God's goodness in the midst of that.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:51.119
And um, and I yeah, I don't know if you're gonna say something, AJ, or not, but I I also appreciate that God is big enough to handle it.
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:52.480
It's so true.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:55.679
Yeah.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:03.199
And for pastors listening, like it's so important to have people in your life that can handle you.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:07.360
And and you know, we're all on a trajectory of growth.
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:19.199
And in that, sometimes addition is subtraction, and to have people in your life that that will listen, because not all pastors feel supported within their traditions or their networks or their elders or whatever, whatever, right?
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:26.559
Because pastors too are on a journey, and that's really important to be authentic about that journey and to be able to not fake it your whole ministry.
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:27.280
That's so good.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:32.159
Hey, before we wrap up here, on another note, and and I don't know if you can share anything at all.
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.480
I know that you're working on um new at least a new project or new projects.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:40.800
I know that you have a contract, a new contract with Carper Holland, Carper Collins.
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.360
Gosh, not Carper Hollins, Harper Collins.
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:44.239
What are you working on?
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:49.280
Can you share any snippets about that, or is it secrecy and just completely under wraps?
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:50.239
Anyway, yeah.
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:55.039
I mean, we have a text in scripture that shows us how Jesus arranged his day for power to flow.
00:37:55.280 --> 00:38:01.599
So I'm asking questions like, you know, because we're understanding flow states now from like a psychological and performative level.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.360
Is there a way to think about this spiritually?
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.280
You know, Jesus flowed power.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:09.760
Was that because he like had a cheat code?
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:16.239
I want to suggest that there was something that Jesus did in the arrangement of his day that allowed power to flow from his life.
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:20.880
And that that that's the call of the follower of Jesus is to learn his way.
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:22.400
And so that's what I'm writing about right now.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:23.039
Awesome.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.039
Well, you can learn, that sounds fantastic.
00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:28.400
You can learn more about AJ Snag's books.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.039
They're fantastic, ajsher.org.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.719
And we'll look forward to that new project.
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.480
But seriously, thank you for joining us today.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:38.800
Ryan, thanks for showing back up.
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:40.719
You're just keeping it here to be here.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:42.400
We'll see week by week, man.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.039
If the Lord wills, as James said.
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:45.760
Fantastic.
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:51.760
Well, hey everybody, thanks for joining us here on Still Becoming, where Grace Meets the Unfinished conversations about faith in real life.
00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.199
I hope you've been really encouraged by today's conversation with Dr.
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:56.880
Pastor AJ Cheryl.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:01.119
And thank you for Key Life, keylife.org for sponsoring this podcast.
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:05.679
And if you do find yourself in this place of asking questions, know that you're in a safe spot with that.
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.719
If that's big enough for it, cling to Jesus, and be willing to go there.
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:09.920
Don't be scared of that.
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:18.000
If you're walking alongside somebody and you're not sure exactly what to do in the midst of where they are in their journey, be a listening ear and be a constant presence.
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:22.639
What I like to tell people is just keep showing up, keep showing the grace and love of Jesus and the care of Jesus.
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:23.760
Thanks for joining us.
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:30.000
We look forward to not seeing you because we can't see you, but we look forward to you joining us again here on Still.
