Liz:
00:11
Oh my god. Okay. We're recording. For the first time.
Abi:
00:18
It's a big moment.
Liz:
00:18
It really is.
Abi:
00:19
I'm like, I'm so giddy. I can't stop smiling.
Liz:
00:21
We've been building up to it for a while.
Abi:
00:24
Yeah. It's we've had some technical difficulties.
Liz:
00:26
I I mean, in the sense that Scheduling. Yeah.
Abi:
00:28
Not well, scheduling, but also getting these cords together.
Liz:
00:32
Yeah. Who knew that making a podcast required so much technology? I know. I was like,
Abi:
00:37
I thought you just held a microphone. I didn't even think about where it connects or anything.
Liz:
00:41
Me neither.
Abi:
00:42
But I'm really happy to be here.
Liz:
00:44
Yeah. Me too. Should we introduce ourselves?
Abi:
00:46
We should.
Liz:
00:47
You go first. You're you're the a and I'm the z. So True.
Abi:
00:52
So my name's Abigail. Yeah. What what am I doing here? Well, I am currently working as an art advisor for the government.
Liz:
01:03
You gotta be in front of your face.
Abi:
01:05
Yeah. See, I need to work on so you have that practice.
Liz:
01:09
Well, I know I've actually I've never done a podcast with mics. Oh. I've always just done them, like, over Zoom.
Abi:
01:14
Oh. Okay.
Liz:
01:15
No. I'm just I'm trying to, like, use this as, like, a
Abi:
01:18
This is gonna be, like yeah.
Liz:
01:19
I know. It's I need one hand that can
Abi:
01:21
I need yeah? Because I'm also very expressive, and I also wanna okay. Alright. So I'm working as a junior art adviser for the government right now and I'm really enjoying it. It's going really well.
Abi:
01:35
But, yeah, my background is I'm Dutch American. I grew up, partially in Amsterdam, which is where we're currently
Liz:
01:43
Yes. We are in Amsterdam.
Abi:
01:44
You know, recording. The accents probably throw you off, but Yeah. We are in Amsterdam. And after kind of growing up here, I moved to The US, specifically to Indianapolis, just north of and yeah. Had my teenage years there, classic American high school.
Abi:
02:02
You're also Midwestern girly, so you know.
Liz:
02:05
From the Midwest, born and raised.
Abi:
02:06
We are Midwest girls, so don't forget that. And then I went back to The Netherlands for a university. And, yeah, did my bachelor's here, and then my master's in cultural policy and art management at Paris. And I've always been really, like, I love art. I mean, this is gonna be a lot about art.
Liz:
02:27
This is mostly an art podcast.
Abi:
02:28
It's an art podcast. You know? That's the kicker of it. Like, at the end of the day
Liz:
02:33
but we're also gonna, like, obviously Culture. I'm a culture vulture.
Abi:
02:38
Culture for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Everything, like, interesting, kinda juicy, I wanna get into. So I'm really excited.
Abi:
02:46
And, yeah, I lived in Paris for two years and then came back to Amsterdam. We met. Should we get into that quickly or
Liz:
02:54
should we
Abi:
02:54
do what I am? Yeah. You say who you are, and then we'll get into that. Alright.
Liz:
02:58
My name is Liz Hebert, and I live in Amsterdam. I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I originally came to Europe to do my bachelor's. I lived in Florence for three years to do a bachelor's in painting conservation. And after that, I did my master's degree here in Amsterdam, which was, like, a four year program, and I finished that up in the last year or two and started my business.
Liz:
03:25
This is not my first podcast.
Abi:
03:28
I've done veteran.
Liz:
03:29
Yeah. I've done two podcasts already. Mhmm. One of which I started, which was the EC podcast, which was for emerging conservation professionals. Mhmm.
Liz:
03:39
Check it out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Cool. And then the other one is one that I'm still doing. I did not start it. It was founded, like, eight years ago.
Liz:
03:48
Ago.
Abi:
03:49
Maybe maybe
Liz:
03:49
a decade ago now. Wow. I know. They've been around for a while, but it's called The C Word, and it's the conservators podcast. And I'm one of the cohosts on there.
Liz:
03:59
I really enjoy, like, the conversations that we have, but they're super specific to the world of conservation. Yeah. And when Abby and I met, I was just like, this is a chance to maybe broaden my horizons a little bit. Yeah.
Abi:
04:15
Yeah. And we also kind of, well, we met at the Van Gogh Museum, so I was working as a registrar.
Liz:
04:22
And I was interning in the conservation department.
Abi:
04:25
Yeah. And we kind of hit it off really well. Like immediately. Immediately. I was like, oh, we see each other.
Abi:
04:30
You know?
Liz:
04:31
We were sitting across each other for in, like, the lunchroom Yeah. Like, the little canteen. Mhmm. And I was like, English? How exciting?
Abi:
04:38
I'm like, oh, I can finally just speak English Yeah. Again. And also, I think we talked about, like, video essays, like, YouTube long yeah. Long form content. And I was like, wait.
Abi:
04:52
Oh, my God. I think I was watching Rick and Morty at the time. That's what we talked about. I know
Liz:
04:56
what video essay I gave.
Abi:
04:58
I was like, oh. And honestly, the rest is history. I mean, we kind of I don't know. Yeah. We had some really good conversations.
Abi:
05:08
We've had some, like, dinner moments. I mean, you have the boat in Amsterdam, so we took that out.
Liz:
05:13
Out. We've been out, like, a bit with each other.
Abi:
05:16
We've known
Liz:
05:16
each other, like, a year and a half now. Yeah. But I'm actually excited because I think one of the things about the podcast is gonna be a great chance to get to know each other.
Abi:
05:24
Yeah. Even better. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.
Abi:
05:26
For sure. Yeah. And also, it's just amazing when you can have, like, a good rapport with someone that just flows easily. And that's what I also really like. I mean, that's also what gave I guess, it's what birthed the idea of a podcast Yeah.
Abi:
05:40
Because we noticed, oh, every time we see each other
Liz:
05:43
There's something.
Abi:
05:44
We talk about interesting stuff. I mean, at least to us. I mean Hopefully to you. Exactly. So that's what I'm really excited about.
Liz:
05:54
Me too. I'm really keen. I'm like, let's go. So today, we're just sort of shooting the shit. Mhmm.
Liz:
06:01
But the idea for the podcast, as we've discussed, is Abby's, like, a really good researcher. She's, my I would say fairly more academically inclined than me. Like, I did academics, but not my forte. And I really wanted to, like, get inside that noggin I love that. And, push myself also to think more, to to engage more with, like, the type of research that's happening right now, articles being written.
Abi:
06:36
Mhmm.
Liz:
06:37
Because I find that I only read when I have to do it for something
Abi:
06:40
Yeah.
Liz:
06:41
Rather than just, like, keeping a consistent practice. And from our conversations, I get the sense that you you keep your finger on the pulse.
Abi:
06:48
Yeah. And I also have to. I'm doing another master's right now part time
Liz:
06:53
because I just couldn't stay away. Exactly. That's what I mean.
Abi:
06:57
Why not do even more academia? And I feel like I'm very interested in theory, cultural theory, artistic theory. I'm I'm very much an abstract thinker. I think what makes this a good combo is that you have more of the technical knowledge. And I also think a lot of these ideas are obviously just fun to talk about, but I think I'm really intrigued in the real world implications of some of the research being done.
Abi:
07:30
And whether that's about, you know, you know, feminist practice in museums or if we're thinking about like, restitution. I think all of these things obviously in the scholarly world are, you know, being talked about and very relevant, but I wanna kind of bring it back down to earth with you and also talk about, of course, involving, like, the technical side also of of art itself and, like, your conservation kind of knowledge. And, you know, for example, there's I mean really quickly, when we talk about restitution, like, oh, you know, do some of these museums that we want to repatriate art to have the ability to conserve art in the way that Western museums do. And that's one of the arguments, you know, that, for example, the British Museum will use
Liz:
08:23
Often.
Abi:
08:23
Yeah, to keep art in their collection. And I think I'm really curious, like, is there any truth to that? Like, what is kind of the latest in the conservation world? And then we kind of, you know, we touch on so many topics in that way because you kind of you get to think about these big ideas, but also look at, okay, what does that mean actually in, like, in practice? Yeah.
Abi:
08:47
And that's what I wanna really get into as well.
Liz:
08:51
And conservation is becoming more and more it's it's always been a back of house thing that's very much done in the shadows. Yeah. But it's now becoming more recognized by the public, and there are more efforts to, share that information. For example, we're in Amsterdam, and Rembrandt's The Night Watch, which is probably his most famous piece.
Abi:
09:14
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Liz:
09:16
It's kinda like the national painting of The Netherlands. And they've been doing, like, a five year conservation project on it that's all in full view of the public. So if you are going to the Rijksmuseum in the next year or two, you will be able to see them restoring the painting. Yeah.
Abi:
09:32
It's really cool.
Liz:
09:33
It's really cool. And I am really big on conservation education as well, not only for, conservators, like, amongst ourselves, but also sharing it with the public and making the argument for why it's important. Yeah. One of the things that we've talked about on the c word a fair bit and that I'm really happy you show an interest in conservation, is that it's important for the different departments in a museum or in a cultural heritage institution
Abi:
10:08
Yeah.
Liz:
10:09
To at least have, like, some understanding Yeah. Of why we do what we do. Yeah. Because then when you're communicating between departments, it makes it a lot easier to make your case for why this has to happen. Oh, absolutely.
Liz:
10:21
And not just, like, for the artwork. It also is a way to engage all areas of the museum in, like, a united goal.
Abi:
10:30
Yeah. I think it's also it really kind of underpins what the function of the museum is, which I would love to also get into. Get into.
Liz:
10:39
Well, then
Abi:
10:40
we're gonna get into. Like, what what is what does the museum actually do? What does it actually I mean, of course, there's the education side. There's also conserving, cultural heritage. Mhmm.
Abi:
10:51
But I think it's fun to begin at the conservation project. Like, okay, we wanna conserve a painting. Why?
Liz:
10:58
Mhmm.
Abi:
10:59
You know, the how is interesting too. That's more the technical side, but why? Why are we gonna put funding towards this? Yeah. What is the relevance of this artwork for the museum, but also for society?
Liz:
11:10
Yeah.
Abi:
11:11
What does it mean to preserve culture? Should we seek to preserve it in its original state? Or can we, you know, just kind of bring it back to the state that we found it in? Or, you know, should we allow artworks to age? Because that's also part of life, you know, aging and and some, you know, the passage of time is obviously inevitable.
Abi:
11:33
Right? So I think that's super fun. I think that's kind of what you can start, you know, conservation as a practice and then why do we conserve Yeah. It's such an interesting topic as well. And really quickly, like, my background is more, like, obviously, I've done some of the art historical research, but also I've, also done internships for, institutions like UNESCO.
Abi:
12:00
And that is, obviously, a huge topic of conversation for big, kind of public institutions that also require public funding to, kind of put programs out there for whether it's artist rights or artists
Liz:
12:16
Funding is always an issue.
Abi:
12:18
Yeah. Of course. That's also
Liz:
12:20
we can talk about that. Mhmm. Funny in the art world where so much money gets exchanged. Funding for institutions is always the
Abi:
12:27
problem. Yeah. And then I also think, of course, you know, looking at the art market in general and the business side and the
Liz:
12:34
See, this is the part that I know nothing about, and I'm really excited to learn more. Yeah. Although I will say my least favorite elective I ever took was art business.
Abi:
12:43
Okay. Yeah. I remember one of the first conversations I had with Liz. We were talking about, I guess, I like, valuation of artworks. Yeah.
Abi:
12:54
And you were like, I'm so against, like, the putting a monetary figure on an artwork. You said that. And I really And you I was like, wow. Okay. We're like, we've she's a bit of an idealist here.
Abi:
13:06
Yeah. Because I had just I mean, I've done internships at Christie's and, like, for me, whenever I see a painting, sadly, I see a figure,
Liz:
13:13
like Is that the first thing that goes through your head?
Abi:
13:17
I won't say the first thing because that would be really, like, oof, okay, girl. But it's definitely something I maybe the second or third thing.
Liz:
13:25
But I get it because as a conservator, the first thing I think of when I see a painting is always gonna be, like, the topography and turn on, like, the brain of where are the retouchings and what's been done to it Yeah. Analysis instead of just Mhmm. Appreciating the artwork.
Abi:
13:41
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also something that, of course, you know, you you shouldn't necessarily have to put a monetary value on a work of art per se. I mean, if you have a good collection or a museum collection, they'll have to do that for the insurance.
Abi:
13:59
But we shouldn't only value artwork because of its monetary value, because that's not the point of art. When the artist made it, it wasn't necessarily to generate revenue. Right?
Liz:
14:11
Yeah.
Abi:
14:11
And so it's so fascinating that we we live in a capitalist society where everything seemingly has a monetary value, but artwork somehow escapes that paradigm when it enters a museum, but it also continues to fall under that paradigm when it is exchanged at auction and galleries. I mean, it's the art market is juicy. I can't wait to get into some of, like, some of this, you know, scandals and the fun stories because it's just it's so fascinating. Like, it's so good. And I think
Liz:
14:45
And I'm excited to hear about it from somebody who is enthusiastic, but also who who I respect and I like, I don't need to think about what are your political leanings when we're having the conversation.
Abi:
14:57
No. Because that is part
Liz:
14:58
of it. Part of me is just so sickened by how much money is involved Mhmm.
Abi:
15:03
In it.
Liz:
15:04
Yeah. But who am I to talk? I mean, I designed my life around trying to be in proximity with
Abi:
15:13
these artworks
Liz:
15:14
Yeah. In any way.
Abi:
15:16
Mhmm.
Liz:
15:17
Not in any way, but in a in a very physical way. Yeah. And so the it it's not it's not up in the air. It it's all about, like, what's actually happening with the painting. And for me, I think maybe why I said when we met, the thing about art shouldn't have a value.
Liz:
15:36
I do not think that anymore. I was going through some shit when we met. That was that's true.
Abi:
15:44
Yeah. I mean, monetary value. Right? Yes. Like, obviously, there's intrinsic value to artwork.
Abi:
15:48
Yeah.
Liz:
15:49
But I will say that I don't consider the monetary value when I'm Mhmm. Restoring a painting.
Abi:
15:56
That's and I think that's the ethical way to do it. Yeah. Because each painting should deserve the same amount of attention to detail and care when it's being conserved.
Liz:
16:08
At least as a baseline.
Abi:
16:09
At least as a baseline. Yeah. But of course, I mean, if you're gonna be working on the night watch versus something that's a bit more contemporary, the attention to detail might vary. I mean, I'm very curious how
Liz:
16:23
It does. Yeah. Well, with the night watch specifically, I think that it's not just the the value of the painting. It's also a really great research opportunity to investigate Rembrandt's techniques and, because the painting is so big and there's such a well documented conservation history of it as well, it's interesting from multiple different angles in terms of research. Yeah.
Liz:
16:49
So I actually did my master's thesis was about the night watch.
Abi:
16:53
Oh, I didn't know that. No. Learning new things.
Liz:
16:56
Yeah.
Abi:
16:56
I love that.
Liz:
16:57
The I've actually, I forget the title of the paper, but it was super nitty gritty about, like, the visual interplay between different pigments and aging.
Abi:
17:09
I love that. Yeah. That's super cool.
Liz:
17:12
I really enjoyed it. Mhmm. And I got to go touch it. It. Not touch it, but, like You got to Get open there.
Liz:
17:17
Yeah.
Abi:
17:18
And that's also fun, like, similarity. We both love the old masters. Yeah. You're more, like, I guess I mean, I I my knowledge is real my strength is more, like, Dutch and Flemish, but, I mean, if you did it on the night watch. And I guess but you also really because all that time in Italy, surely
Liz:
17:36
Yes.
Abi:
17:36
It must have been a lot of, like, a
Liz:
17:37
lot of I know a lot
Abi:
17:38
of about Yeah.
Liz:
17:39
Renaissance and the medieval period as well. Mhmm. But, yeah. Renaissance is probably what I know best Mhmm. Before coming here.
Liz:
17:49
Yeah. And then doing my master's degree, it was all Dutch masters. Yeah. So I had to learn that. I took a really great elective my second or third semester here, with a teacher at the University of Amsterdam, Arnold de Vitt.
Liz:
18:05
Okay. I think that he also works at the the Rome school. Is it Dutch Rome Academy? Yeah.
Abi:
18:12
There there there is some type of exchange. Yes. Exactly. Is it Rome or is it Florence? I'm not sure.
Abi:
18:16
He was he was in Rome.
Liz:
18:17
I'm pretty sure. But the class, what drew me to it was that it was about, like, the different nodes of relationships between the Renaissance artists and then the Dutch masters.
Abi:
18:29
Yeah.
Liz:
18:29
And a lot of Dutch artists traveled down to Italy and back and forth, so there was an exchange happening following the Renaissance. And I thought that that was a really good bridge for me
Abi:
18:39
That's great.
Liz:
18:40
To try to learn Yeah. About the Northern Yeah. Artists.
Abi:
18:43
I love that. I think that's it's so amazing when you can follow a course and it really piques your interest and then you kind of start down this journey. For me, it was on exchange during my bachelor. I actually studied international studies in Leiden, and I was living in The Hague. And I really thought I was gonna go down the path of diplomacy.
Abi:
19:02
I mean, that was kind of
Liz:
19:03
You're very international. So it
Abi:
19:05
And also I feel like I've always been interested in history and languages. So I thought I'm gonna work for the UN, like every other person in that program. We were all like, we're all gonna work for the UN. Like Sure.
Liz:
19:17
There's enough jobs to go around. Right.
Abi:
19:19
And then I think everybody had a reality check and I don't think I mean, some people did end up going into foreign affairs and like, you know, and I, I still, I mean, I am working for the government, so, you know, found my way back to kind of that area. But, I did an exchange in Montreal and at McGill university and I had a professor, at McGill University and I had a professor. This is why so it's called source needed as well because I'm like I need to put it's doctor Angela Veenhoven. She has a Dutch last name. She's amazing.
Abi:
19:52
She's written a lot of articles. Okay. I could totally cite one that would be, you know, maybe in the in the description if you're interested in in specifically like, seventeenth century Dutch. I mean, that was the whole course. It was about seventeenth century Dutch art.
Abi:
20:09
Mhmm. And I thought, you know, I'm going to try this class because it's probably going to be a bit easier for me because I speak Dutch. I'll be able to remember the names. Yeah. But I've never taken like a collegiate level art history course.
Abi:
20:22
I did AP art history in high school. I always knew I loved art, but I really thought I was gonna go be like a state department girlie. You know? That was my path. I was like, foreign affairs.
Abi:
20:34
Let's go.
Liz:
20:35
And I get into this class and
Abi:
20:37
I'm like, and after the first lecture, I was like, oh, I'm in the wrong career. I was like You won? It was one class and I was astounded. I was like, this is fascinating. I didn't know the level of depth and interpretation and also the level of detail that goes into understanding our history, but also just the the level of expertise that these artists exhibited at the time and just also how unique and special I think that specifically, like, Dutch art is still, you know, like, it's very unique in how it was also created.
Abi:
21:17
It's kind of the origins of, I guess, the modern art market, which is Very much. That super fascinating.
Liz:
21:24
Fun fact. In the seventeenth century, the just out of The Netherlands, Five over 5,000,000 paintings
Abi:
21:31
Yeah.
Liz:
21:31
Were produced, which is insane for a country that's the size of the state of Maine. Mhmm. Like That's insane. Yeah.
Abi:
21:39
And I was just completely, like, enamored with the subject. And then I finished my program in Leiden, and then I did an internship at a gallery, the Prince Klaus gallery in Amsterdam, which no longer exists sadly. But they still have the fund, where and they fund, like, young emerging artists from, like, the global South. Super cool. They also do, like, a photography seed fund.
Abi:
22:05
They do really cool, like and then I applied for Christie's in New York, old master's department. And I once I got in there, I was like, this is everything. Because the best part about working for an auction house, which is something I also wanna I would love to have
Liz:
22:22
into it.
Abi:
22:22
An auction house person on the podcast
Liz:
22:24
because Okay. Great.
Abi:
22:26
That's super fun, is that you get You could
Liz:
22:31
go on location to an auction house.
Abi:
22:32
Well, there's Christie's Amsterdam. Yeah. And You could go to I I do know. Auction. Yeah.
Abi:
22:37
Sophie Blamers. Maybe I we could reach out and see, like, should we do a session? It'd be super fun.
Liz:
22:44
I think so.
Abi:
22:44
Yeah. And the best part about, I guess, the yeah. The commercial side of art, if you are working in a gallery or an auction house is that you get to see the painting
Liz:
22:55
Mhmm.
Abi:
22:55
And you're face to face with it. I'm sure that's also something that's amazing about conservation work. You also get to be in close proximity to the work. And, you know, you would see this piece and then it would sell. It would go back into private collection And so you really get to spend, like, a few months with a work of art.
Abi:
23:13
You get to do the research, provenance research, because you have to write your catalog entry for the sale catalog. Yeah. And so you just learn about a particular piece before it goes back into private hands. And it's, I mean, it's just super cool. And, like, now I'm working more with contemporary artists, but, I mean, it's always gonna be my soft spot.
Abi:
23:37
Yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah. So Especially with what
Liz:
23:40
you do and working more on, like, the market side of things. Like, you're getting to see paintings that aren't in museums. They're not accessible. Yeah. Anyway Mhmm.
Liz:
23:51
I'm currently trying to move my business more towards that as well, like private collectors. Mhmm. But it's interesting because what got me into conservation was immediately just the the, again, the physicality of it. Yeah. And Mhmm.
Liz:
24:06
I didn't really know how much schooling was going to be necessary in order to to get to where I wanted to be, but I was so enthused at the idea of being able to be close Yeah. Have an intimate connection with the pieces. Mhmm. Not just in terms of seeing it, but also interacting and touching and getting rid of the dirt and just, you know, bringing new life
Abi:
24:33
Yeah.
Liz:
24:33
To the painting.
Abi:
24:34
Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Liz:
24:35
Painting specifically because I don't really work with anything else.
Abi:
24:39
Mhmm.
Liz:
24:40
And I I like old masters. I'm not really a conservator of anything contemporary, but I'll do it. I'll do it. You've got the skills. If if it
Abi:
24:49
needs to be done Exactly. You can call her
Liz:
24:52
up. That's another thing about conservation that as I as I learned about it, really drew me in, is it's a lot of, like, logical reasoning
Abi:
25:04
Yeah.
Liz:
25:04
And just problem solving Mhmm. Which is my skill set, I would say, when it comes to conservation. Like, I am not somebody who's going to have every single recipe Mhmm. Memorized. I'm going to have to do a refresher.
Liz:
25:18
Yeah. That's most people, by the way. That's not abnormal. But problem solving on a project and also being able to have a different approach to every painting so it stays fresh and I stay engaged with it.
Abi:
25:35
Yeah. Yeah. That's really fun. I feel like also, I think this is gonna be a great podcast for people who are maybe interested in getting into this side of the world Yeah. This market Yeah.
Abi:
25:48
This industry sector.
Liz:
25:50
We accept all, but especially women. Because I think,
Abi:
25:55
the fun thing about it is that as we mentioned earlier, it touches so many different interesting cornerstones. The art market is also something that very much goes with the economy in general, but it can also act very distinctly because the good that's being exchanged is already at, you know, a higher market price anyway. So it attracts a different type of buyer. And I feel like yeah. And in terms of accessibility, I feel like the art market, you hear this a lot.
Abi:
26:28
It's a very opaque market.
Liz:
26:30
Mhmm.
Abi:
26:31
And I would even extend that same word or that characterization to museums, cultural institutions in general, it can feel like a very closed off world.
Liz:
26:42
Yeah.
Abi:
26:42
And I remember when I was first kind of approaching it, like, because for me I kind of pivoted up from a different study into it. Yeah. What really helped was, yeah, not only having like a mentor that kind of guided me in the right way, but I kind of want to demystify a lot of these things. Like it's I I don't know. From the outside, sometimes I think, you know, oh, you work in a museum or, oh, you when I was a registrar, like, some of the insurance contracts that you see or the way that It's very intimidating.
Abi:
27:19
Yeah. Our transportation companies, like how they work and the security measures and it's all like and you know, when you get ready for a big exhibition or a big auction, it seems like a sort of theatrical play.
Liz:
27:32
Like there's so many moving parts and Yeah.
Abi:
27:33
I'm really excited to kind of moving parts and Yeah. I'm really excited to kinda get into, like, all of the different elements that go into it and also critically look upon and reflect upon the sector because I think there's so much room for improvement as well.
Liz:
27:49
Yeah.
Abi:
27:50
For museums, for galleries, for art fairs, for
Liz:
27:53
We're going through a really tumultuous time for museums or for anything luxury. Yeah. I would say. And so I think in our lifetime, we're going to see these industries change quite a lot.
Abi:
28:07
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, there's it's also such a, like, it's it's it's such a market where things can kind of be like this and then all of a sudden, you know, you have, see this is again source needed. Oh my goodness. The the banana taped with the duct tape.
Abi:
28:30
Something like that. A conceptual artwork will sell for, you know, obscene amount of money and people are like, what is going on with the auction world? Like, what? How did they manage to sell that? But there's a reason.
Abi:
28:40
Like, you can
Liz:
28:41
track it.
Abi:
28:42
You can. Yeah. Of course. And also, you know, it's if you go into the history of conceptual art and, like, that's the fun thing about art history too is that all no art is created in a vacuum. I think we've also had, like, an earlier conversation about that.
Abi:
28:57
And it's fun to kind of see, you know, a banana with duct tape being taped to a wall, that piece being sold in the context of conceptual art in general.
Liz:
29:10
Yeah.
Abi:
29:10
Starting with, like, Marcel Duchamp, of course, with the urinal that's upside down. And I feel like that's super fun as well, kind of and that also demystifies it and it makes it like, oh, I understand now why something like that might sell for so much if I if I understand, you know
Liz:
29:27
But it's all about the context.
Abi:
29:28
As well. The context and where Which I think is what
Liz:
29:32
makes it unapproachable for a lot of people, art in general Mhmm. Is that it does feel like you need to know the history, the background, how does this artist connect to that artist in order to get to a place where you're able to fully appreciate an artwork? I don't necessarily subscribe to that mentality, but I I I see why that would be, like, very much a mountain to to climb for a lot of people.
Abi:
30:00
Yeah. And I also now that you've mentioned that, because I'm someone who kind of oh, out of my personal interest, I wanted to understand that whole tradition
Liz:
30:09
Mhmm.
Abi:
30:10
And, like, the canon. That's what they call it. You know, the canon of art history. Like, where does this artist fall within the lineage of all artists that came before them? But I also think, indeed, there's so much value to just going into a museum blindly with no prior knowledge and just reacting kind of viscerally or emotionally to what you're seeing.
Abi:
30:32
And actually, there are some artists like Mark Rothko who completely deny any form of interpretation. They're like, I don't want you to place me in the context of abstract art or abstract I just wanna see
Liz:
30:44
Just sit with it. Just sit with it. Literally.
Abi:
30:46
And that's also kind of yeah. Yeah. Super fun and interesting. So yeah. I mean,
Liz:
30:53
there's a lot to get to now.
Abi:
30:54
There's a lot to get into.
Liz:
30:56
We have to tell you the name of our podcast. It's Source Needed. Don't know if you noticed. Lovely signs. But the idea with that is, again, coming from, like, writing an academic paper.
Liz:
31:09
If you've ever written one, I'm sure that you've been, like, mid sentence, you're on a roll, and and you realize I really need a source Yeah. Right here. Mhmm. So you just put in all caps, like, source needed or write it in here, bitch. Mhmm.
Liz:
31:21
And that's exactly what this podcast is. We wanna make it extremely approachable, and we will sometimes say things and not reference where we know that information from.
Abi:
31:31
That's, like, my entire that's, like, 99% of my Yeah.
Liz:
31:36
Just trust us. Yeah.
Abi:
31:37
Trust me. It was revealed to me in a dream.
Liz:
31:40
That's such a good
Abi:
31:42
I feel like back in the day before they were strict about citations
Liz:
31:46
Yeah.
Abi:
31:46
There are some old papers.
Liz:
31:48
Creative.
Abi:
31:49
Yeah. The and they like, the footnote says, like, this was revealed to me in a dream or I just know this. Is that
Liz:
31:55
a good philosophy paper though?
Abi:
31:57
There are some examples of that in, like, philosophy. It's just like, just trust me.
Liz:
32:01
It's good.
Abi:
32:02
And people are like, okay.
Liz:
32:03
Don't worry about it. We're also not shy of, like, nonstandard sources. For example, I'll probably reference a few TikToks, some movies, poems.
Abi:
32:15
Of course. Yeah. This is like a cultural podcast. Like, we're gonna go into, like, I mean, I love, like, fiction and, like, citing artist artistic, you know, different forms of expression. Yeah.
Abi:
32:30
But indeed, like, it's really yeah. I love I love our podcast name because I think it's like yeah. Sometimes you have an idea and you're like, I know this is true. I know I read this somewhere. I just don't remember where.
Abi:
32:44
Just give me a minute. I need to, like somewhere.
Liz:
32:46
I'll get back to it.
Abi:
32:47
And it's not the best form of, like, when we think about methodology in research, you probably shouldn't work that. I mean, we've all done it where you write an essay and then you just cherry pick the sources that will support your claim. We've all been there. Don't deny it. Like, come on.
Liz:
33:03
When you're writing a paper and, like, three days before it's due, you find a source that completely negates all of your arguments and you're like, this doesn't exist.
Abi:
33:09
You're like, let me just pretend that I didn't see that No. And just continue on my path. Mhmm. And then, you know, you have, like, what I usually do is towards the conclusion, I'm like, one could consider this other thing as well.
Liz:
33:22
Yeah.
Abi:
33:22
But Maybe. Further further research is needed. Yeah. Not by me. Not by me, though.
Abi:
33:30
So, yeah, I don't know if the cherry picking method is, like, the best. I mean, it's not. Don't do that. No. Try to get, like, a wide understanding of your success.
Abi:
33:39
Condoning
Liz:
33:39
it. But
Abi:
33:41
whatever. This podcast is about.
Liz:
33:43
It's exactly what this podcast is. So every week, we are going to each bring an article Mhmm. To the table or some kind of of source. We'll have a larger theme for the episode. And then the conversation that we have will definitely go on some tangents, but the core idea is that we're going to try to find a way to connect the two pieces that we've brought to the conversation or just use those as, like, the jumping off point, essentially.
Liz:
34:13
So you'll be able to find links to the sources that we use either in the description or up on our Patreon. Maybe go check that out. We're going to be doing a lot of, like, our community building over on Patreon. So if you want to be more involved in the podcast, definitely go subscribe over there as well.
Abi:
34:34
Yeah. That's a great tip. Yeah. You should.
Liz:
34:37
And I don't know how you're, you're viewing this podcast, but we have a video version of the podcast up on YouTube, and then we also have an audio version on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Yeah. And then I think it also gets distributed to some other podcast platforms that I don't know anything about. So Cool. Yeah.
Abi:
34:55
Yeah. Liz is the veteran here, so she's handling some of the technical details
Liz:
35:00
and Yes. But I'm excited to be doing, like Yeah. A podcast with a cohost. I mean, the c word I do with cohost, but they already have been doing it for so long. Like, they've got their own vibe, and I, I'm a little bit more professional over there maybe because I know that conservators might, be listening.
Liz:
35:21
But I want this, again, this podcast to be more for, like, anyone who's interested sort of deal. It's not an inside baseball sort of of podcast. You don't need to know anything Mhmm. About what we're talking about in order to enjoy, hopefully.
Abi:
35:36
No. And also, I hope that it inspires also people in different fields, different disciplines. Yeah. Just to get kind of get thinking about some of the questions that we're gonna, you know, speak on and also the sources that we've referenced. I think it's always fun to get, like, you know, a new kind of idea from, like, an article that you didn't expect Yeah.
Abi:
35:55
You would ever hear about.
Liz:
35:57
Mhmm.
Abi:
35:57
I mean, one thing I love when I when I listen to podcasts is kind of the the the research side sometimes or like a statistic and I'm like, what? And that kind of gets your brain going and so I hope that this podcast can also inspire that, you know, also conversations in your own life.
Liz:
36:14
Yes.
Abi:
36:16
And please
Liz:
36:17
tell us if it does. Yeah. That's that's On Instagram. I'm the one who's gonna be in charge
Abi:
36:24
of marketing. If you can't tell. I'm like, oh, but, yeah, I think that's really I hope for me, I just wanna keep it also informal, but like with yeah. Informal, but also, I guess, yeah, with the source, it becomes more concrete Yeah. With the with whatever we're discussing that week it becomes it has some type of structure and I think that will be really fun and I just want people to I mean if you're curious like I am, I mean and you're also a very curious person, I think this will be a good
Liz:
37:00
one for
Abi:
37:00
you because we're gonna kinda investigate a lot of different topics all around, you know, within the realm of art and culture. So
Liz:
37:08
Yeah. We're really excited. We hope that you like this episode.
Abi:
37:14
I know. I feel like this is a good introduction.
Liz:
37:17
Yeah. We really covered a lot as well. Yeah.
Abi:
37:19
I'm curious.
Liz:
37:19
I think that if you've watched this, you've probably got the vibe already, which is what we wanted to do. But if you wanna follow the journey, please be sure to subscribe on every platform that I've already listed. The links are going to be in the doobly doo down below both on podcast platforms and YouTube. I think I've done my due diligence on
Abi:
37:40
promoting this. You're doing great. You're doing great, sweetie.
Liz:
37:44
Thanks.
Abi:
37:47
Any closing thoughts before we wrap it up? I feel like we're coming to a natural Any footnotes? Any footnotes? I love that. Yeah.
Abi:
37:54
Okay. That's gonna be yeah. We're gonna say that again.
Liz:
37:59
You I think
Abi:
38:00
I'm good. I'm good too.
Liz:
38:01
I'm excited. Yeah. That's the biggest thing. Yay. Bye, everybody.
Liz:
38:06
Bye.
00:11
Oh my god. Okay. We're recording. For the first time.
Abi:
00:18
It's a big moment.
Liz:
00:18
It really is.
Abi:
00:19
I'm like, I'm so giddy. I can't stop smiling.
Liz:
00:21
We've been building up to it for a while.
Abi:
00:24
Yeah. It's we've had some technical difficulties.
Liz:
00:26
I I mean, in the sense that Scheduling. Yeah.
Abi:
00:28
Not well, scheduling, but also getting these cords together.
Liz:
00:32
Yeah. Who knew that making a podcast required so much technology? I know. I was like,
Abi:
00:37
I thought you just held a microphone. I didn't even think about where it connects or anything.
Liz:
00:41
Me neither.
Abi:
00:42
But I'm really happy to be here.
Liz:
00:44
Yeah. Me too. Should we introduce ourselves?
Abi:
00:46
We should.
Liz:
00:47
You go first. You're you're the a and I'm the z. So True.
Abi:
00:52
So my name's Abigail. Yeah. What what am I doing here? Well, I am currently working as an art advisor for the government.
Liz:
01:03
You gotta be in front of your face.
Abi:
01:05
Yeah. See, I need to work on so you have that practice.
Liz:
01:09
Well, I know I've actually I've never done a podcast with mics. Oh. I've always just done them, like, over Zoom.
Abi:
01:14
Oh. Okay.
Liz:
01:15
No. I'm just I'm trying to, like, use this as, like, a
Abi:
01:18
This is gonna be, like yeah.
Liz:
01:19
I know. It's I need one hand that can
Abi:
01:21
I need yeah? Because I'm also very expressive, and I also wanna okay. Alright. So I'm working as a junior art adviser for the government right now and I'm really enjoying it. It's going really well.
Abi:
01:35
But, yeah, my background is I'm Dutch American. I grew up, partially in Amsterdam, which is where we're currently
Liz:
01:43
Yes. We are in Amsterdam.
Abi:
01:44
You know, recording. The accents probably throw you off, but Yeah. We are in Amsterdam. And after kind of growing up here, I moved to The US, specifically to Indianapolis, just north of and yeah. Had my teenage years there, classic American high school.
Abi:
02:02
You're also Midwestern girly, so you know.
Liz:
02:05
From the Midwest, born and raised.
Abi:
02:06
We are Midwest girls, so don't forget that. And then I went back to The Netherlands for a university. And, yeah, did my bachelor's here, and then my master's in cultural policy and art management at Paris. And I've always been really, like, I love art. I mean, this is gonna be a lot about art.
Liz:
02:27
This is mostly an art podcast.
Abi:
02:28
It's an art podcast. You know? That's the kicker of it. Like, at the end of the day
Liz:
02:33
but we're also gonna, like, obviously Culture. I'm a culture vulture.
Abi:
02:38
Culture for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Everything, like, interesting, kinda juicy, I wanna get into. So I'm really excited.
Abi:
02:46
And, yeah, I lived in Paris for two years and then came back to Amsterdam. We met. Should we get into that quickly or
Liz:
02:54
should we
Abi:
02:54
do what I am? Yeah. You say who you are, and then we'll get into that. Alright.
Liz:
02:58
My name is Liz Hebert, and I live in Amsterdam. I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And I originally came to Europe to do my bachelor's. I lived in Florence for three years to do a bachelor's in painting conservation. And after that, I did my master's degree here in Amsterdam, which was, like, a four year program, and I finished that up in the last year or two and started my business.
Liz:
03:25
This is not my first podcast.
Abi:
03:28
I've done veteran.
Liz:
03:29
Yeah. I've done two podcasts already. Mhmm. One of which I started, which was the EC podcast, which was for emerging conservation professionals. Mhmm.
Liz:
03:39
Check it out on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Cool. And then the other one is one that I'm still doing. I did not start it. It was founded, like, eight years ago.
Liz:
03:48
Ago.
Abi:
03:49
Maybe maybe
Liz:
03:49
a decade ago now. Wow. I know. They've been around for a while, but it's called The C Word, and it's the conservators podcast. And I'm one of the cohosts on there.
Liz:
03:59
I really enjoy, like, the conversations that we have, but they're super specific to the world of conservation. Yeah. And when Abby and I met, I was just like, this is a chance to maybe broaden my horizons a little bit. Yeah.
Abi:
04:15
Yeah. And we also kind of, well, we met at the Van Gogh Museum, so I was working as a registrar.
Liz:
04:22
And I was interning in the conservation department.
Abi:
04:25
Yeah. And we kind of hit it off really well. Like immediately. Immediately. I was like, oh, we see each other.
Abi:
04:30
You know?
Liz:
04:31
We were sitting across each other for in, like, the lunchroom Yeah. Like, the little canteen. Mhmm. And I was like, English? How exciting?
Abi:
04:38
I'm like, oh, I can finally just speak English Yeah. Again. And also, I think we talked about, like, video essays, like, YouTube long yeah. Long form content. And I was like, wait.
Abi:
04:52
Oh, my God. I think I was watching Rick and Morty at the time. That's what we talked about. I know
Liz:
04:56
what video essay I gave.
Abi:
04:58
I was like, oh. And honestly, the rest is history. I mean, we kind of I don't know. Yeah. We had some really good conversations.
Abi:
05:08
We've had some, like, dinner moments. I mean, you have the boat in Amsterdam, so we took that out.
Liz:
05:13
Out. We've been out, like, a bit with each other.
Abi:
05:16
We've known
Liz:
05:16
each other, like, a year and a half now. Yeah. But I'm actually excited because I think one of the things about the podcast is gonna be a great chance to get to know each other.
Abi:
05:24
Yeah. Even better. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.
Abi:
05:26
For sure. Yeah. And also, it's just amazing when you can have, like, a good rapport with someone that just flows easily. And that's what I also really like. I mean, that's also what gave I guess, it's what birthed the idea of a podcast Yeah.
Abi:
05:40
Because we noticed, oh, every time we see each other
Liz:
05:43
There's something.
Abi:
05:44
We talk about interesting stuff. I mean, at least to us. I mean Hopefully to you. Exactly. So that's what I'm really excited about.
Liz:
05:54
Me too. I'm really keen. I'm like, let's go. So today, we're just sort of shooting the shit. Mhmm.
Liz:
06:01
But the idea for the podcast, as we've discussed, is Abby's, like, a really good researcher. She's, my I would say fairly more academically inclined than me. Like, I did academics, but not my forte. And I really wanted to, like, get inside that noggin I love that. And, push myself also to think more, to to engage more with, like, the type of research that's happening right now, articles being written.
Abi:
06:36
Mhmm.
Liz:
06:37
Because I find that I only read when I have to do it for something
Abi:
06:40
Yeah.
Liz:
06:41
Rather than just, like, keeping a consistent practice. And from our conversations, I get the sense that you you keep your finger on the pulse.
Abi:
06:48
Yeah. And I also have to. I'm doing another master's right now part time
Liz:
06:53
because I just couldn't stay away. Exactly. That's what I mean.
Abi:
06:57
Why not do even more academia? And I feel like I'm very interested in theory, cultural theory, artistic theory. I'm I'm very much an abstract thinker. I think what makes this a good combo is that you have more of the technical knowledge. And I also think a lot of these ideas are obviously just fun to talk about, but I think I'm really intrigued in the real world implications of some of the research being done.
Abi:
07:30
And whether that's about, you know, you know, feminist practice in museums or if we're thinking about like, restitution. I think all of these things obviously in the scholarly world are, you know, being talked about and very relevant, but I wanna kind of bring it back down to earth with you and also talk about, of course, involving, like, the technical side also of of art itself and, like, your conservation kind of knowledge. And, you know, for example, there's I mean really quickly, when we talk about restitution, like, oh, you know, do some of these museums that we want to repatriate art to have the ability to conserve art in the way that Western museums do. And that's one of the arguments, you know, that, for example, the British Museum will use
Liz:
08:23
Often.
Abi:
08:23
Yeah, to keep art in their collection. And I think I'm really curious, like, is there any truth to that? Like, what is kind of the latest in the conservation world? And then we kind of, you know, we touch on so many topics in that way because you kind of you get to think about these big ideas, but also look at, okay, what does that mean actually in, like, in practice? Yeah.
Abi:
08:47
And that's what I wanna really get into as well.
Liz:
08:51
And conservation is becoming more and more it's it's always been a back of house thing that's very much done in the shadows. Yeah. But it's now becoming more recognized by the public, and there are more efforts to, share that information. For example, we're in Amsterdam, and Rembrandt's The Night Watch, which is probably his most famous piece.
Abi:
09:14
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Liz:
09:16
It's kinda like the national painting of The Netherlands. And they've been doing, like, a five year conservation project on it that's all in full view of the public. So if you are going to the Rijksmuseum in the next year or two, you will be able to see them restoring the painting. Yeah.
Abi:
09:32
It's really cool.
Liz:
09:33
It's really cool. And I am really big on conservation education as well, not only for, conservators, like, amongst ourselves, but also sharing it with the public and making the argument for why it's important. Yeah. One of the things that we've talked about on the c word a fair bit and that I'm really happy you show an interest in conservation, is that it's important for the different departments in a museum or in a cultural heritage institution
Abi:
10:08
Yeah.
Liz:
10:09
To at least have, like, some understanding Yeah. Of why we do what we do. Yeah. Because then when you're communicating between departments, it makes it a lot easier to make your case for why this has to happen. Oh, absolutely.
Liz:
10:21
And not just, like, for the artwork. It also is a way to engage all areas of the museum in, like, a united goal.
Abi:
10:30
Yeah. I think it's also it really kind of underpins what the function of the museum is, which I would love to also get into. Get into.
Liz:
10:39
Well, then
Abi:
10:40
we're gonna get into. Like, what what is what does the museum actually do? What does it actually I mean, of course, there's the education side. There's also conserving, cultural heritage. Mhmm.
Abi:
10:51
But I think it's fun to begin at the conservation project. Like, okay, we wanna conserve a painting. Why?
Liz:
10:58
Mhmm.
Abi:
10:59
You know, the how is interesting too. That's more the technical side, but why? Why are we gonna put funding towards this? Yeah. What is the relevance of this artwork for the museum, but also for society?
Liz:
11:10
Yeah.
Abi:
11:11
What does it mean to preserve culture? Should we seek to preserve it in its original state? Or can we, you know, just kind of bring it back to the state that we found it in? Or, you know, should we allow artworks to age? Because that's also part of life, you know, aging and and some, you know, the passage of time is obviously inevitable.
Abi:
11:33
Right? So I think that's super fun. I think that's kind of what you can start, you know, conservation as a practice and then why do we conserve Yeah. It's such an interesting topic as well. And really quickly, like, my background is more, like, obviously, I've done some of the art historical research, but also I've, also done internships for, institutions like UNESCO.
Abi:
12:00
And that is, obviously, a huge topic of conversation for big, kind of public institutions that also require public funding to, kind of put programs out there for whether it's artist rights or artists
Liz:
12:16
Funding is always an issue.
Abi:
12:18
Yeah. Of course. That's also
Liz:
12:20
we can talk about that. Mhmm. Funny in the art world where so much money gets exchanged. Funding for institutions is always the
Abi:
12:27
problem. Yeah. And then I also think, of course, you know, looking at the art market in general and the business side and the
Liz:
12:34
See, this is the part that I know nothing about, and I'm really excited to learn more. Yeah. Although I will say my least favorite elective I ever took was art business.
Abi:
12:43
Okay. Yeah. I remember one of the first conversations I had with Liz. We were talking about, I guess, I like, valuation of artworks. Yeah.
Abi:
12:54
And you were like, I'm so against, like, the putting a monetary figure on an artwork. You said that. And I really And you I was like, wow. Okay. We're like, we've she's a bit of an idealist here.
Abi:
13:06
Yeah. Because I had just I mean, I've done internships at Christie's and, like, for me, whenever I see a painting, sadly, I see a figure,
Liz:
13:13
like Is that the first thing that goes through your head?
Abi:
13:17
I won't say the first thing because that would be really, like, oof, okay, girl. But it's definitely something I maybe the second or third thing.
Liz:
13:25
But I get it because as a conservator, the first thing I think of when I see a painting is always gonna be, like, the topography and turn on, like, the brain of where are the retouchings and what's been done to it Yeah. Analysis instead of just Mhmm. Appreciating the artwork.
Abi:
13:41
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's also something that, of course, you know, you you shouldn't necessarily have to put a monetary value on a work of art per se. I mean, if you have a good collection or a museum collection, they'll have to do that for the insurance.
Abi:
13:59
But we shouldn't only value artwork because of its monetary value, because that's not the point of art. When the artist made it, it wasn't necessarily to generate revenue. Right?
Liz:
14:11
Yeah.
Abi:
14:11
And so it's so fascinating that we we live in a capitalist society where everything seemingly has a monetary value, but artwork somehow escapes that paradigm when it enters a museum, but it also continues to fall under that paradigm when it is exchanged at auction and galleries. I mean, it's the art market is juicy. I can't wait to get into some of, like, some of this, you know, scandals and the fun stories because it's just it's so fascinating. Like, it's so good. And I think
Liz:
14:45
And I'm excited to hear about it from somebody who is enthusiastic, but also who who I respect and I like, I don't need to think about what are your political leanings when we're having the conversation.
Abi:
14:57
No. Because that is part
Liz:
14:58
of it. Part of me is just so sickened by how much money is involved Mhmm.
Abi:
15:03
In it.
Liz:
15:04
Yeah. But who am I to talk? I mean, I designed my life around trying to be in proximity with
Abi:
15:13
these artworks
Liz:
15:14
Yeah. In any way.
Abi:
15:16
Mhmm.
Liz:
15:17
Not in any way, but in a in a very physical way. Yeah. And so the it it's not it's not up in the air. It it's all about, like, what's actually happening with the painting. And for me, I think maybe why I said when we met, the thing about art shouldn't have a value.
Liz:
15:36
I do not think that anymore. I was going through some shit when we met. That was that's true.
Abi:
15:44
Yeah. I mean, monetary value. Right? Yes. Like, obviously, there's intrinsic value to artwork.
Abi:
15:48
Yeah.
Liz:
15:49
But I will say that I don't consider the monetary value when I'm Mhmm. Restoring a painting.
Abi:
15:56
That's and I think that's the ethical way to do it. Yeah. Because each painting should deserve the same amount of attention to detail and care when it's being conserved.
Liz:
16:08
At least as a baseline.
Abi:
16:09
At least as a baseline. Yeah. But of course, I mean, if you're gonna be working on the night watch versus something that's a bit more contemporary, the attention to detail might vary. I mean, I'm very curious how
Liz:
16:23
It does. Yeah. Well, with the night watch specifically, I think that it's not just the the value of the painting. It's also a really great research opportunity to investigate Rembrandt's techniques and, because the painting is so big and there's such a well documented conservation history of it as well, it's interesting from multiple different angles in terms of research. Yeah.
Liz:
16:49
So I actually did my master's thesis was about the night watch.
Abi:
16:53
Oh, I didn't know that. No. Learning new things.
Liz:
16:56
Yeah.
Abi:
16:56
I love that.
Liz:
16:57
The I've actually, I forget the title of the paper, but it was super nitty gritty about, like, the visual interplay between different pigments and aging.
Abi:
17:09
I love that. Yeah. That's super cool.
Liz:
17:12
I really enjoyed it. Mhmm. And I got to go touch it. It. Not touch it, but, like You got to Get open there.
Liz:
17:17
Yeah.
Abi:
17:18
And that's also fun, like, similarity. We both love the old masters. Yeah. You're more, like, I guess I mean, I I my knowledge is real my strength is more, like, Dutch and Flemish, but, I mean, if you did it on the night watch. And I guess but you also really because all that time in Italy, surely
Liz:
17:36
Yes.
Abi:
17:36
It must have been a lot of, like, a
Liz:
17:37
lot of I know a lot
Abi:
17:38
of about Yeah.
Liz:
17:39
Renaissance and the medieval period as well. Mhmm. But, yeah. Renaissance is probably what I know best Mhmm. Before coming here.
Liz:
17:49
Yeah. And then doing my master's degree, it was all Dutch masters. Yeah. So I had to learn that. I took a really great elective my second or third semester here, with a teacher at the University of Amsterdam, Arnold de Vitt.
Liz:
18:05
Okay. I think that he also works at the the Rome school. Is it Dutch Rome Academy? Yeah.
Abi:
18:12
There there there is some type of exchange. Yes. Exactly. Is it Rome or is it Florence? I'm not sure.
Abi:
18:16
He was he was in Rome.
Liz:
18:17
I'm pretty sure. But the class, what drew me to it was that it was about, like, the different nodes of relationships between the Renaissance artists and then the Dutch masters.
Abi:
18:29
Yeah.
Liz:
18:29
And a lot of Dutch artists traveled down to Italy and back and forth, so there was an exchange happening following the Renaissance. And I thought that that was a really good bridge for me
Abi:
18:39
That's great.
Liz:
18:40
To try to learn Yeah. About the Northern Yeah. Artists.
Abi:
18:43
I love that. I think that's it's so amazing when you can follow a course and it really piques your interest and then you kind of start down this journey. For me, it was on exchange during my bachelor. I actually studied international studies in Leiden, and I was living in The Hague. And I really thought I was gonna go down the path of diplomacy.
Abi:
19:02
I mean, that was kind of
Liz:
19:03
You're very international. So it
Abi:
19:05
And also I feel like I've always been interested in history and languages. So I thought I'm gonna work for the UN, like every other person in that program. We were all like, we're all gonna work for the UN. Like Sure.
Liz:
19:17
There's enough jobs to go around. Right.
Abi:
19:19
And then I think everybody had a reality check and I don't think I mean, some people did end up going into foreign affairs and like, you know, and I, I still, I mean, I am working for the government, so, you know, found my way back to kind of that area. But, I did an exchange in Montreal and at McGill university and I had a professor, at McGill University and I had a professor. This is why so it's called source needed as well because I'm like I need to put it's doctor Angela Veenhoven. She has a Dutch last name. She's amazing.
Abi:
19:52
She's written a lot of articles. Okay. I could totally cite one that would be, you know, maybe in the in the description if you're interested in in specifically like, seventeenth century Dutch. I mean, that was the whole course. It was about seventeenth century Dutch art.
Abi:
20:09
Mhmm. And I thought, you know, I'm going to try this class because it's probably going to be a bit easier for me because I speak Dutch. I'll be able to remember the names. Yeah. But I've never taken like a collegiate level art history course.
Abi:
20:22
I did AP art history in high school. I always knew I loved art, but I really thought I was gonna go be like a state department girlie. You know? That was my path. I was like, foreign affairs.
Abi:
20:34
Let's go.
Liz:
20:35
And I get into this class and
Abi:
20:37
I'm like, and after the first lecture, I was like, oh, I'm in the wrong career. I was like You won? It was one class and I was astounded. I was like, this is fascinating. I didn't know the level of depth and interpretation and also the level of detail that goes into understanding our history, but also just the the level of expertise that these artists exhibited at the time and just also how unique and special I think that specifically, like, Dutch art is still, you know, like, it's very unique in how it was also created.
Abi:
21:17
It's kind of the origins of, I guess, the modern art market, which is Very much. That super fascinating.
Liz:
21:24
Fun fact. In the seventeenth century, the just out of The Netherlands, Five over 5,000,000 paintings
Abi:
21:31
Yeah.
Liz:
21:31
Were produced, which is insane for a country that's the size of the state of Maine. Mhmm. Like That's insane. Yeah.
Abi:
21:39
And I was just completely, like, enamored with the subject. And then I finished my program in Leiden, and then I did an internship at a gallery, the Prince Klaus gallery in Amsterdam, which no longer exists sadly. But they still have the fund, where and they fund, like, young emerging artists from, like, the global South. Super cool. They also do, like, a photography seed fund.
Abi:
22:05
They do really cool, like and then I applied for Christie's in New York, old master's department. And I once I got in there, I was like, this is everything. Because the best part about working for an auction house, which is something I also wanna I would love to have
Liz:
22:22
into it.
Abi:
22:22
An auction house person on the podcast
Liz:
22:24
because Okay. Great.
Abi:
22:26
That's super fun, is that you get You could
Liz:
22:31
go on location to an auction house.
Abi:
22:32
Well, there's Christie's Amsterdam. Yeah. And You could go to I I do know. Auction. Yeah.
Abi:
22:37
Sophie Blamers. Maybe I we could reach out and see, like, should we do a session? It'd be super fun.
Liz:
22:44
I think so.
Abi:
22:44
Yeah. And the best part about, I guess, the yeah. The commercial side of art, if you are working in a gallery or an auction house is that you get to see the painting
Liz:
22:55
Mhmm.
Abi:
22:55
And you're face to face with it. I'm sure that's also something that's amazing about conservation work. You also get to be in close proximity to the work. And, you know, you would see this piece and then it would sell. It would go back into private collection And so you really get to spend, like, a few months with a work of art.
Abi:
23:13
You get to do the research, provenance research, because you have to write your catalog entry for the sale catalog. Yeah. And so you just learn about a particular piece before it goes back into private hands. And it's, I mean, it's just super cool. And, like, now I'm working more with contemporary artists, but, I mean, it's always gonna be my soft spot.
Abi:
23:37
Yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah. So Especially with what
Liz:
23:40
you do and working more on, like, the market side of things. Like, you're getting to see paintings that aren't in museums. They're not accessible. Yeah. Anyway Mhmm.
Liz:
23:51
I'm currently trying to move my business more towards that as well, like private collectors. Mhmm. But it's interesting because what got me into conservation was immediately just the the, again, the physicality of it. Yeah. And Mhmm.
Liz:
24:06
I didn't really know how much schooling was going to be necessary in order to to get to where I wanted to be, but I was so enthused at the idea of being able to be close Yeah. Have an intimate connection with the pieces. Mhmm. Not just in terms of seeing it, but also interacting and touching and getting rid of the dirt and just, you know, bringing new life
Abi:
24:33
Yeah.
Liz:
24:33
To the painting.
Abi:
24:34
Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Liz:
24:35
Painting specifically because I don't really work with anything else.
Abi:
24:39
Mhmm.
Liz:
24:40
And I I like old masters. I'm not really a conservator of anything contemporary, but I'll do it. I'll do it. You've got the skills. If if it
Abi:
24:49
needs to be done Exactly. You can call her
Liz:
24:52
up. That's another thing about conservation that as I as I learned about it, really drew me in, is it's a lot of, like, logical reasoning
Abi:
25:04
Yeah.
Liz:
25:04
And just problem solving Mhmm. Which is my skill set, I would say, when it comes to conservation. Like, I am not somebody who's going to have every single recipe Mhmm. Memorized. I'm going to have to do a refresher.
Liz:
25:18
Yeah. That's most people, by the way. That's not abnormal. But problem solving on a project and also being able to have a different approach to every painting so it stays fresh and I stay engaged with it.
Abi:
25:35
Yeah. Yeah. That's really fun. I feel like also, I think this is gonna be a great podcast for people who are maybe interested in getting into this side of the world Yeah. This market Yeah.
Abi:
25:48
This industry sector.
Liz:
25:50
We accept all, but especially women. Because I think,
Abi:
25:55
the fun thing about it is that as we mentioned earlier, it touches so many different interesting cornerstones. The art market is also something that very much goes with the economy in general, but it can also act very distinctly because the good that's being exchanged is already at, you know, a higher market price anyway. So it attracts a different type of buyer. And I feel like yeah. And in terms of accessibility, I feel like the art market, you hear this a lot.
Abi:
26:28
It's a very opaque market.
Liz:
26:30
Mhmm.
Abi:
26:31
And I would even extend that same word or that characterization to museums, cultural institutions in general, it can feel like a very closed off world.
Liz:
26:42
Yeah.
Abi:
26:42
And I remember when I was first kind of approaching it, like, because for me I kind of pivoted up from a different study into it. Yeah. What really helped was, yeah, not only having like a mentor that kind of guided me in the right way, but I kind of want to demystify a lot of these things. Like it's I I don't know. From the outside, sometimes I think, you know, oh, you work in a museum or, oh, you when I was a registrar, like, some of the insurance contracts that you see or the way that It's very intimidating.
Abi:
27:19
Yeah. Our transportation companies, like how they work and the security measures and it's all like and you know, when you get ready for a big exhibition or a big auction, it seems like a sort of theatrical play.
Liz:
27:32
Like there's so many moving parts and Yeah.
Abi:
27:33
I'm really excited to kind of moving parts and Yeah. I'm really excited to kinda get into, like, all of the different elements that go into it and also critically look upon and reflect upon the sector because I think there's so much room for improvement as well.
Liz:
27:49
Yeah.
Abi:
27:50
For museums, for galleries, for art fairs, for
Liz:
27:53
We're going through a really tumultuous time for museums or for anything luxury. Yeah. I would say. And so I think in our lifetime, we're going to see these industries change quite a lot.
Abi:
28:07
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, I mean, there's it's also such a, like, it's it's it's such a market where things can kind of be like this and then all of a sudden, you know, you have, see this is again source needed. Oh my goodness. The the banana taped with the duct tape.
Abi:
28:30
Something like that. A conceptual artwork will sell for, you know, obscene amount of money and people are like, what is going on with the auction world? Like, what? How did they manage to sell that? But there's a reason.
Abi:
28:40
Like, you can
Liz:
28:41
track it.
Abi:
28:42
You can. Yeah. Of course. And also, you know, it's if you go into the history of conceptual art and, like, that's the fun thing about art history too is that all no art is created in a vacuum. I think we've also had, like, an earlier conversation about that.
Abi:
28:57
And it's fun to kind of see, you know, a banana with duct tape being taped to a wall, that piece being sold in the context of conceptual art in general.
Liz:
29:10
Yeah.
Abi:
29:10
Starting with, like, Marcel Duchamp, of course, with the urinal that's upside down. And I feel like that's super fun as well, kind of and that also demystifies it and it makes it like, oh, I understand now why something like that might sell for so much if I if I understand, you know
Liz:
29:27
But it's all about the context.
Abi:
29:28
As well. The context and where Which I think is what
Liz:
29:32
makes it unapproachable for a lot of people, art in general Mhmm. Is that it does feel like you need to know the history, the background, how does this artist connect to that artist in order to get to a place where you're able to fully appreciate an artwork? I don't necessarily subscribe to that mentality, but I I I see why that would be, like, very much a mountain to to climb for a lot of people.
Abi:
30:00
Yeah. And I also now that you've mentioned that, because I'm someone who kind of oh, out of my personal interest, I wanted to understand that whole tradition
Liz:
30:09
Mhmm.
Abi:
30:10
And, like, the canon. That's what they call it. You know, the canon of art history. Like, where does this artist fall within the lineage of all artists that came before them? But I also think, indeed, there's so much value to just going into a museum blindly with no prior knowledge and just reacting kind of viscerally or emotionally to what you're seeing.
Abi:
30:32
And actually, there are some artists like Mark Rothko who completely deny any form of interpretation. They're like, I don't want you to place me in the context of abstract art or abstract I just wanna see
Liz:
30:44
Just sit with it. Just sit with it. Literally.
Abi:
30:46
And that's also kind of yeah. Yeah. Super fun and interesting. So yeah. I mean,
Liz:
30:53
there's a lot to get to now.
Abi:
30:54
There's a lot to get into.
Liz:
30:56
We have to tell you the name of our podcast. It's Source Needed. Don't know if you noticed. Lovely signs. But the idea with that is, again, coming from, like, writing an academic paper.
Liz:
31:09
If you've ever written one, I'm sure that you've been, like, mid sentence, you're on a roll, and and you realize I really need a source Yeah. Right here. Mhmm. So you just put in all caps, like, source needed or write it in here, bitch. Mhmm.
Liz:
31:21
And that's exactly what this podcast is. We wanna make it extremely approachable, and we will sometimes say things and not reference where we know that information from.
Abi:
31:31
That's, like, my entire that's, like, 99% of my Yeah.
Liz:
31:36
Just trust us. Yeah.
Abi:
31:37
Trust me. It was revealed to me in a dream.
Liz:
31:40
That's such a good
Abi:
31:42
I feel like back in the day before they were strict about citations
Liz:
31:46
Yeah.
Abi:
31:46
There are some old papers.
Liz:
31:48
Creative.
Abi:
31:49
Yeah. The and they like, the footnote says, like, this was revealed to me in a dream or I just know this. Is that
Liz:
31:55
a good philosophy paper though?
Abi:
31:57
There are some examples of that in, like, philosophy. It's just like, just trust me.
Liz:
32:01
It's good.
Abi:
32:02
And people are like, okay.
Liz:
32:03
Don't worry about it. We're also not shy of, like, nonstandard sources. For example, I'll probably reference a few TikToks, some movies, poems.
Abi:
32:15
Of course. Yeah. This is like a cultural podcast. Like, we're gonna go into, like, I mean, I love, like, fiction and, like, citing artist artistic, you know, different forms of expression. Yeah.
Abi:
32:30
But indeed, like, it's really yeah. I love I love our podcast name because I think it's like yeah. Sometimes you have an idea and you're like, I know this is true. I know I read this somewhere. I just don't remember where.
Abi:
32:44
Just give me a minute. I need to, like somewhere.
Liz:
32:46
I'll get back to it.
Abi:
32:47
And it's not the best form of, like, when we think about methodology in research, you probably shouldn't work that. I mean, we've all done it where you write an essay and then you just cherry pick the sources that will support your claim. We've all been there. Don't deny it. Like, come on.
Liz:
33:03
When you're writing a paper and, like, three days before it's due, you find a source that completely negates all of your arguments and you're like, this doesn't exist.
Abi:
33:09
You're like, let me just pretend that I didn't see that No. And just continue on my path. Mhmm. And then, you know, you have, like, what I usually do is towards the conclusion, I'm like, one could consider this other thing as well.
Liz:
33:22
Yeah.
Abi:
33:22
But Maybe. Further further research is needed. Yeah. Not by me. Not by me, though.
Abi:
33:30
So, yeah, I don't know if the cherry picking method is, like, the best. I mean, it's not. Don't do that. No. Try to get, like, a wide understanding of your success.
Abi:
33:39
Condoning
Liz:
33:39
it. But
Abi:
33:41
whatever. This podcast is about.
Liz:
33:43
It's exactly what this podcast is. So every week, we are going to each bring an article Mhmm. To the table or some kind of of source. We'll have a larger theme for the episode. And then the conversation that we have will definitely go on some tangents, but the core idea is that we're going to try to find a way to connect the two pieces that we've brought to the conversation or just use those as, like, the jumping off point, essentially.
Liz:
34:13
So you'll be able to find links to the sources that we use either in the description or up on our Patreon. Maybe go check that out. We're going to be doing a lot of, like, our community building over on Patreon. So if you want to be more involved in the podcast, definitely go subscribe over there as well.
Abi:
34:34
Yeah. That's a great tip. Yeah. You should.
Liz:
34:37
And I don't know how you're, you're viewing this podcast, but we have a video version of the podcast up on YouTube, and then we also have an audio version on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Yeah. And then I think it also gets distributed to some other podcast platforms that I don't know anything about. So Cool. Yeah.
Abi:
34:55
Yeah. Liz is the veteran here, so she's handling some of the technical details
Liz:
35:00
and Yes. But I'm excited to be doing, like Yeah. A podcast with a cohost. I mean, the c word I do with cohost, but they already have been doing it for so long. Like, they've got their own vibe, and I, I'm a little bit more professional over there maybe because I know that conservators might, be listening.
Liz:
35:21
But I want this, again, this podcast to be more for, like, anyone who's interested sort of deal. It's not an inside baseball sort of of podcast. You don't need to know anything Mhmm. About what we're talking about in order to enjoy, hopefully.
Abi:
35:36
No. And also, I hope that it inspires also people in different fields, different disciplines. Yeah. Just to get kind of get thinking about some of the questions that we're gonna, you know, speak on and also the sources that we've referenced. I think it's always fun to get, like, you know, a new kind of idea from, like, an article that you didn't expect Yeah.
Abi:
35:55
You would ever hear about.
Liz:
35:57
Mhmm.
Abi:
35:57
I mean, one thing I love when I when I listen to podcasts is kind of the the the research side sometimes or like a statistic and I'm like, what? And that kind of gets your brain going and so I hope that this podcast can also inspire that, you know, also conversations in your own life.
Liz:
36:14
Yes.
Abi:
36:16
And please
Liz:
36:17
tell us if it does. Yeah. That's that's On Instagram. I'm the one who's gonna be in charge
Abi:
36:24
of marketing. If you can't tell. I'm like, oh, but, yeah, I think that's really I hope for me, I just wanna keep it also informal, but like with yeah. Informal, but also, I guess, yeah, with the source, it becomes more concrete Yeah. With the with whatever we're discussing that week it becomes it has some type of structure and I think that will be really fun and I just want people to I mean if you're curious like I am, I mean and you're also a very curious person, I think this will be a good
Liz:
37:00
one for
Abi:
37:00
you because we're gonna kinda investigate a lot of different topics all around, you know, within the realm of art and culture. So
Liz:
37:08
Yeah. We're really excited. We hope that you like this episode.
Abi:
37:14
I know. I feel like this is a good introduction.
Liz:
37:17
Yeah. We really covered a lot as well. Yeah.
Abi:
37:19
I'm curious.
Liz:
37:19
I think that if you've watched this, you've probably got the vibe already, which is what we wanted to do. But if you wanna follow the journey, please be sure to subscribe on every platform that I've already listed. The links are going to be in the doobly doo down below both on podcast platforms and YouTube. I think I've done my due diligence on
Abi:
37:40
promoting this. You're doing great. You're doing great, sweetie.
Liz:
37:44
Thanks.
Abi:
37:47
Any closing thoughts before we wrap it up? I feel like we're coming to a natural Any footnotes? Any footnotes? I love that. Yeah.
Abi:
37:54
Okay. That's gonna be yeah. We're gonna say that again.
Liz:
37:59
You I think
Abi:
38:00
I'm good. I'm good too.
Liz:
38:01
I'm excited. Yeah. That's the biggest thing. Yay. Bye, everybody.
Liz:
38:06
Bye.
