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Welcome to the Smarticle podcast.
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Today we're going to be entering the world
of pig butchering scams, one of the most
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insidious forms of financial fraud today.
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If you've ever received a friendly message
from a stranger that seems too good to
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be true, you might have been a target.
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The scams don't just steal money.
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They destroy lives, leaving victims
financially and emotionally devastated.
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Our guest today is a superstar who
is on a mission to stop these scam.
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Erin West is a globally recognized
speaker and educator leading the fight
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against transnational organized crime
with a relentless focus on disrupting
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scam networks and protecting victims.
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As the founder of Operation Shamrock, Erin
has built a powerful coalition, uniting
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law enforcement, private industry, and
global stakeholders to combat scams,
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link transnational organized crime.
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Operations Shamrock is dedicated to
building investigative capacity and
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equipping law enforcement with tools
to take action and providing real-time
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intelligence to industry, ensuring
that criminals have nowhere to hide.
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Erin's expertise comes from 26 years
as a Deputy District attorney in Santa
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Clara County, California, where she
spent eight years with the React High
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Tech task, leading investigations into
cryptocurrency enabled crimes, SIM
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swapping and digital financial fraud.
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She also founded the Crypto Coalition,
an international network of nearly 2000
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law enforcement professionals focused
on cryptocurrency investigations.
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Now through Operation Shamrock, Erin
is on a mission to educate, mobilize,
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and disrupt raising awareness of scam
operations, empowering law enforcement
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worldwide, and delivering actionable
intelligence to industry partners
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to stop fraud before it happens.
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Our passion, leadership, and
relentless pursuit of justice are
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driving real change in the fight
against transnational organized crime.
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Welcome everybody.
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I'm here with my new best
friend, Erin West, who runs one
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of the coolest organizations
I've ever heard of in my life.
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First off, can you just tell us who you
are and a little bit about yourself?
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Sure.
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I'm Erin West.
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I was a local prosecutor
for 26 and a half years.
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I just retired in November
to start this nonprofit.
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But when I was a prosecutor
for the last eight years, I was
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assigned to a team of detectives
who specialized in high tech crime.
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And while I was there, I became aware of a
whole new type of crime that was literally
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crushing people called pig butchering.
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The more I learned about it, the
more I realized that it was at crisis
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level and nobody had even heard of it.
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And so yeah, I made it my business to
start talking about it all the time
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everywhere to anyone who would listen.
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And that is my business because it is
a really, really destructive type of
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scamming that is laser focused at taking
the wealth of the United States away.
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That could sum up everything that I've
been doing with this series because
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it is so pervasive and so frightening.
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I actually we're gonna hear later
from someone who was actually
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scammed in a pig butchering scam,
and I think a lot of people think,
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oh, that could never happen to me.
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And or that only happens to dumb people.
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And I could tell folks that it doesn't
just happen to people that aren't
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aware It happens to people everyday.
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Let's start
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with a definition of what is
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pig butchering?
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Cuz I'd never heard of it before
two weeks ago and I consider
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myself a fairly well read guy.
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And that's the problem.
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This is the biggest threat
that you've never heard of.
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This is the world's biggest crime that
not enough people are talking about.
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And so that's why I talk
about it all the time.
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'cause I wanna make sure that I've hit
your uncle in Iowa and I've hit my next
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door neighbor and my kids' soccer coach.
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This is where we need to
get this story because.
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The bankers have heard of about
it now, law enforcement now knows
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what it is, but the fact is middle
America does not know what this is,
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and it's literally coming for them.
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So the way the scam works is I think we've
all gotten those texts on our phone that
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appear to be directed to someone else.
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Mm-hmm.
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And what that is the beginning of a scam.
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While it might appear like not a big
deal and oh, this is kind of scammy,
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in fact, that is the first step.
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To luring you in on the long
con, that is pig butchering.
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What that scammer will do is over a period
of say, 90 days, spend four to five hours
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a day texting and really selling you the
dream of this fantastic relationship, the
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relationship that you've always wanted.
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And complimented with photographs of how
the scammer the person, the love interest
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for you is living a really high class
life and is driving a beautiful car and
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doing expensive travel and living well.
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So they get our victims to buy into.
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I'm in a relationship with this person,
and this is a person of means, and
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ultimately the scammer will disclose
that, you know how I afford this, it's
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because I invest in cryptocurrency.
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And I didn't know how to invest in
cryptocurrency either, but my uncle
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taught me and my uncle could teach you.
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And that's when the second dream is sold.
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And that is you too could
be wealthy like this.
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And that perfect storm of basic human
wants and needs of wanting to be loved
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and then wanting to be well financed is
really too much for people to resist and
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they end up losing all of their money.
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It.
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Shocking.
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When I talked to a guy by the name of
Troy who works now, he works for, I
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think you guys, you actually know him.
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In fact, he know he's one that I know.
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He was the one that sicked me on
you . I was like, you have to talk
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to Erin West when you talk to Troy.
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And he's wonderful because he's
one of these people that says,
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look, I'm gonna try to help people.
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'cause I do know from my research, and
maybe you could speak a little to this a
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little bit, is why don't people report.
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Hmm.
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The fact that people don't report this
when they're not losing $500, they're
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losing sometimes hundreds of thousands of
dollars that are going into these scams.
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And I would love for you to talk a
little bit about like where these, how
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these scams originate and all that.
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But why don't people report this?
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You're absolutely right about the
amount of the loss and the amount of the
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loss, no matter how many dollars it is
going to be everything the victim has.
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That's the goal.
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So during that time where the
scammer is getting to know the
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victim, part of their really targeted
process is to find out everywhere
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that the victim is holding money.
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Because the way pig butchering
works is that it doesn't end until
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they've taken every last cent.
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By the time our victims.
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Realize that they've lost everything
and oftentimes have even been lured into
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getting a loan and putting more money in.
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They're devastated.
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This is a whole class of victim that I
had never seen before and I prosecuted
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really severe sexual assaults.
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I've put prosecuted homicide.
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I prosecute really hate crimes,
but this is a person who, by the
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time they get to me, has lost
their entire financial footing.
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As well as realized that the person they
trusted beyond all others, set them up for
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this fall and had been planning it since
the first time they started speaking.
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So our victims are devastated and
then they become humiliated and they
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really do a lot of self blame of how
could I have let this happen to me?
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And what they're not realizing is.
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They are no match, no matter how smart
anyone is for a team of people who
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do this all day, every day and who
are armed with really sophisticated
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psychological techniques and they catch
our victims not on their best day, and
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then they sell them a whole idea, a
whole concept, a whole dream, and our
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victims, people want to believe the good.
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So anyway, so our victims, there's very
much a stigma to this and very much when
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they report to law enforcement, oftentimes
they are led to believe that this isn't
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a crime and that this is a civil matter
or that there's nothing that can be done
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for them, and that is really traumatizing.
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One of the worst things about this
is we don't even understand how
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big the problem is because we don't
have enough people reporting it.
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Yeah, well, we're banging the drum.
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I think that you, with work that
you're doing and others it's the ba
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the drama's being banged for sure.
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And hopefully in a year or sooner
we'll have a better understanding.
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But let's start with
the term pig butchering.
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It is so weird.
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When I first heard, I was
like, what in the what?
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So where did it come from?
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What is it?
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And you talked about this
sophisticated group of people.
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Can you talk a little bit about what
that is and what that looks like?
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Yeah, so I wanna take you back
to pre Covid and pre Covid.
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A group of Chinese organized gangsters,
literally known Chinese criminals,
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decided to capitalize on the fact
that cryptocurrency is banned in
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China and gambling is banned in China.
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And so they started building casino towers
in Seehan, Oakville, Cambodia, because
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they thought, okay, well this is where
we can build an entire gambling mecca.
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And as we sit today, there's
something like 133 casinos
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in this small seaside town.
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What's happened is we all know Covid
came and people weren't moving.
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They weren't going to these casinos,
and so the criminals pivoted and
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they thought, okay, well let's
think of something else we could do.
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Let's do Shah Zupan.
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That's their term, translates
to pig butchering, which means.
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We're gonna fatten up our victims
with love bombs and all kinds of
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dreams that we're gonna sell them.
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And then ultimately we are going
to slit their throat, butcher them,
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and take everything they have.
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And so that is the vile
nature of what this is.
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This is not a, just like you said, that
people aren't losing a small amount
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of money, they're losing everything.
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It is the most destructive form of theft.
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So they call it pig butchering.
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And so they, this is run by
Chinese organized crime and to.
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Effectively do this work.
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They needed a huge human workforce
and to get that workforce, they
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started advertising for employees
and they made it seem very real,
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like it was a very real job.
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And at that time, and currently
there's a large unemployment problem
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in Southeast Asia and in the countries
that they prey upon, and they're
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able to offer an impressive salary.
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So people apply to these jobs.
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They have interviews for these jobs.
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They have every reason to
believe that it's a legit job.
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And then when they take the airline ticket
that the company provides and they fly
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to Bangkok, they arrive in Bangkok and
they are, their passports are taken, they
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are put on buses, and they are routed to
Cambodian compounds where they are then
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locked down and forced to do this work.
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A slave population, are they
there forever or can get out?
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So what we know is that they are, this
is happening largely in Cambodia and
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in Myanmar and every every operation
that's running this has their own
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rules about how people get out.
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We know that we've seen some rescues
where family members have paid a
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ransom to get their family member out.
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We know of certain countries that
have involved their ambassador
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and have gotten people out.
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We are in touch with.
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People inside the compounds who want
to get out but don't have ransom
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payments and will likely stay there.
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They're frequently there until
either someone rescues them or
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until they can make this payment.
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Oh my gosh.
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I'm gonna ask the obvious 'cause
that's way my brain works.
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I'm gonna ask the obvious question.
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What in the world is going on in
Myanmar and Cambodia with these
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government, and how is it possible
that China, the United States.
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Authorities aren't doing
something about it.
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You're asking all the right questions.
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Let's take 'em one by one.
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So, Myanmar is in a civil war right now.
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It's not at all clear who's running
anything and what isn't being
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touched in this civil war are the
massive compounds that are housing.
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I. This enslaved population doing
this work, and that's because
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there's too much money in it.
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This is a business like
we've never seen before.
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This is an amazingly lucrative
operation that enables the gangsters
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running it to pay off all kinds of
protection so that they're not touched.
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When we look at Cambodia, we know
that this industry makes up half of
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the GDP for the country of Cambodia.
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Wow.
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There's too much money.
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We are dealing with a region of the world
with a embedded corruption problem where
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people can be paid to look the other way
that enables these compounds to exist.
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But you ask a really important question
about China and the United States and
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their absence in really handling this.
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What we have seen is we've
seen China step in where.
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They essentially, they set rules and
their rules were do not target chi
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the Chinese population as victims
of the financial scheme and do not
233
00:14:44,945 --> 00:14:47,105
human traffic, Chinese employees.
234
00:14:47,375 --> 00:14:51,425
We don't want Chinese victims on
either side and where the compounds of
235
00:14:51,425 --> 00:14:56,565
violated that we've seen the Chinese
step in and liberate compounds , with
236
00:14:56,565 --> 00:15:01,245
the assistance of people on the
ground there, we haven't seen.
237
00:15:01,875 --> 00:15:05,235
A large response from the United
States in any part of this.
238
00:15:05,625 --> 00:15:06,405
Why do you think that is?
239
00:15:09,885 --> 00:15:10,635
I wish I knew.
240
00:15:10,725 --> 00:15:16,695
I've spent the last three years
knocking on doors, speaking politely,
241
00:15:16,725 --> 00:15:23,175
yelling, doing my level best to
raise the awareness and the critical
242
00:15:23,175 --> 00:15:25,425
nature of this to the right people.
243
00:15:26,385 --> 00:15:29,955
But what we know for sure is that we have.
244
00:15:30,885 --> 00:15:38,085
A massive illicit economy being
run by Chinese organized criminals
245
00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:43,695
that is largely unchecked and is
having no friction put upon it
246
00:15:44,295 --> 00:15:50,595
as we watch them steal an entire
generation's worth of wealth.
247
00:15:51,015 --> 00:15:51,435
Oh my goodness.
248
00:15:51,735 --> 00:15:52,845
Alright, I'm getting depressed.
249
00:15:53,415 --> 00:15:57,435
Let's talk about the groups of people
that they, so who do they target?
250
00:15:57,705 --> 00:15:58,935
Is it specific groups of people?
251
00:15:58,935 --> 00:16:02,145
And then what weapons do they use
if that, I don't know if that's the
252
00:16:02,145 --> 00:16:05,955
right word, but how do they identify
and target the victims in general?
253
00:16:07,065 --> 00:16:12,465
I would love to say, I think with the
phone numbers, I don't know that that's
254
00:16:12,855 --> 00:16:13,875
targeted at all.
255
00:16:13,875 --> 00:16:17,085
I think that is just a blanket, every
single phone number that they can
256
00:16:17,085 --> 00:16:19,275
find that is active will be targeted.
257
00:16:19,755 --> 00:16:19,815
Hmm.
258
00:16:19,815 --> 00:16:25,455
But I do know from talking to people
inside that they do target groups of
259
00:16:25,455 --> 00:16:27,585
people that they assume will be wealthy.
260
00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:32,025
So I know that they invade
travel groups on Facebook.
261
00:16:32,055 --> 00:16:36,315
They invade fancy food groups,
wine groups where they think that
262
00:16:36,315 --> 00:16:38,205
they will meet wealthier people.
263
00:16:38,955 --> 00:16:41,325
And from there they try
to begin friendships and.
264
00:16:42,405 --> 00:16:44,985
Romantic relationships,
and so that's what they do.
265
00:16:45,615 --> 00:16:49,605
I used to say that I wish I knew who they
were targeting because then I could really
266
00:16:49,605 --> 00:16:52,335
focus on educating that population alone.
267
00:16:52,665 --> 00:16:57,585
But the fact is I've seen victims that are
in their twenties up to their eighties.
268
00:16:57,585 --> 00:17:03,645
They literally will go after anyone that
is interested in their scheme of getting
269
00:17:03,645 --> 00:17:05,445
rich by investing in cryptocurrency.
270
00:17:06,645 --> 00:17:09,945
So just to make sure I understand
this is a hundred percent digital.
271
00:17:10,485 --> 00:17:12,645
There's no contact between the people.
272
00:17:12,645 --> 00:17:14,055
This is all done online.
273
00:17:14,505 --> 00:17:15,165
Well, no.
274
00:17:15,465 --> 00:17:16,635
Oh, thank you for asking that.
275
00:17:16,665 --> 00:17:19,545
Oh, because that, I think,
is a window of opportunity.
276
00:17:19,845 --> 00:17:22,545
So what we've seen, what we
know about these criminals
277
00:17:22,545 --> 00:17:24,045
is they pivot, pivot, pivot.
278
00:17:24,135 --> 00:17:27,555
And every time we think we're making
any kind of inroad, they pivot.
279
00:17:28,155 --> 00:17:33,405
So one of their more recent pivots has
been showing up at people's houses.
280
00:17:33,435 --> 00:17:34,905
So here's how this works.
281
00:17:35,295 --> 00:17:41,085
Instead of having the victims send
the money electronically, they have
282
00:17:41,085 --> 00:17:46,365
started some, well, in many cases,
having the victims go to their bank
283
00:17:46,455 --> 00:17:51,285
and withdraw a significant amount of
cash, then having that cash picked
284
00:17:51,285 --> 00:17:53,325
up by a courier at their home.
285
00:17:53,925 --> 00:17:57,855
To me, that feels like an opportunity,
that feels like an opportunity with
286
00:17:57,855 --> 00:18:02,925
people on us soil to make arrests
and to disrupt what they're doing.
287
00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:05,895
So they're building
this romantic interest.
288
00:18:06,285 --> 00:18:09,765
Do they ever put in people, like
they send a romantic interest
289
00:18:09,765 --> 00:18:12,105
to the like, hi, I'm so-and-so.
290
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:14,895
We've been talking online and
now gimme the keys to the crypto.
291
00:18:15,825 --> 00:18:17,295
So that's so funny too.
292
00:18:17,445 --> 00:18:21,765
So it used to be, I've been in this for
three years now and watched it develop.
293
00:18:21,945 --> 00:18:24,855
It used to be we would say if they
won't get on a phone call with you,
294
00:18:24,855 --> 00:18:26,145
then that means they're not real.
295
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:26,440
Mm-hmm.
296
00:18:26,565 --> 00:18:28,455
Then they started hiring
people to make phone calls.
297
00:18:28,485 --> 00:18:30,945
Then we'd say if they won't get on
a video chat, then they're not real.
298
00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:32,565
Then they figured out ways to do that.
299
00:18:32,565 --> 00:18:36,645
They hired models and now we know they're
using deep fakes, and now we know that
300
00:18:36,645 --> 00:18:38,655
they're doing a lot of the chats with ai.
301
00:18:38,655 --> 00:18:42,345
So we know that every time we think we.
302
00:18:42,915 --> 00:18:46,605
Have given good advice to
victims, they get around it.
303
00:18:47,115 --> 00:18:48,495
I'm not sure if I answered the question.
304
00:18:48,915 --> 00:18:50,385
It's a nuanced operation.
305
00:18:50,395 --> 00:18:51,595
It's ever changing.
306
00:18:51,645 --> 00:18:53,625
It's really hard to answer that question.
307
00:18:53,985 --> 00:18:56,205
They attack the person
through these groups.
308
00:18:56,205 --> 00:18:59,675
They try to tug at their emotional
harshing, fine lonely people or whatever.
309
00:18:59,675 --> 00:19:01,295
But I'm a happily married man.
310
00:19:01,595 --> 00:19:02,165
I'm a dad.
311
00:19:02,165 --> 00:19:02,915
I'm pretty busy.
312
00:19:03,425 --> 00:19:06,185
How does somebody like me
fall into a trap like this?
313
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:11,420
Well, I'll tell you, I think everybody,
no matter how happily married and
314
00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:15,640
no matter how good they feel about
their circumstances, might welcome an
315
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,440
opportunity to make a little extra cash.
316
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:17,530
Mm-hmm.
317
00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:17,860
Sure.
318
00:19:18,805 --> 00:19:21,955
These people are not preying
on us on our best days.
319
00:19:21,955 --> 00:19:25,705
If you I frequently talk to victims
who would say, God, if it wasn't,
320
00:19:25,705 --> 00:19:28,615
it was such a bad day the day that
person reached out to me and I
321
00:19:28,615 --> 00:19:29,935
just started chatting with them.
322
00:19:30,325 --> 00:19:35,665
I will tell you that many a married man
has fallen for this, and we can talk
323
00:19:35,665 --> 00:19:39,835
about whether what they were trying to
get out of that relationship or not.
324
00:19:40,075 --> 00:19:46,020
I've also talked to married men who
were targeted as a. Hey, I've got this
325
00:19:46,020 --> 00:19:48,000
really impressive investment scheme.
326
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:48,090
Mm-hmm.
327
00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:50,080
And let me tell you how it works.
328
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:51,910
I know it's super easy.
329
00:19:51,910 --> 00:19:55,450
If you're listening to a podcast like
this and you're listening to people
330
00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:58,630
talk about this, it's very easy to
say, I don't think that would ever
331
00:19:58,630 --> 00:20:02,770
happen to me, and probably not as
you're sitting here listening to it.
332
00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:03,350
Mm-hmm.
333
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:07,770
But I guarantee you, you know,
someone that this has happened to
334
00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:12,390
in some way, shape or form, they
have been taken advantage of by
335
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:16,260
someone online because it's that
pervasive it, it's that ubiquitous.
336
00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:21,390
And so what we really have to do is
be careful about how we talk about it,
337
00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:27,990
because how we talk about it enables
people to come forward and normalize it.
338
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:28,290
Mm-hmm.
339
00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:34,080
I try to talk about times, even
in the past year where I have
340
00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:37,620
clicked on something I shouldn't
have because I got tricked.
341
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:39,790
I talk about what's happened to my dad.
342
00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:42,340
I talk about, my best friend,
what's happened to her dad.
343
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,710
I think that there's no one
who's immune from being tricked.
344
00:20:48,355 --> 00:20:52,195
At the end of the day, the
answer is we need to assume every
345
00:20:52,195 --> 00:20:56,515
electronic communication is a
scam until proven otherwise.
346
00:20:56,635 --> 00:20:56,905
Wow.
347
00:20:56,905 --> 00:21:01,255
If you don't know that person, they're
a scammer until you've learn otherwise.
348
00:21:01,465 --> 00:21:04,555
And even if you do know that person,
sometimes there are sophisticated
349
00:21:04,945 --> 00:21:10,645
ways of basically faking someone
through a profile or it is everywhere.
350
00:21:11,305 --> 00:21:14,845
There are 330 million people in
this country, and I probably get.
351
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:16,480
Just random Joe.
352
00:21:16,570 --> 00:21:19,150
Me, I probably get 20 attacks a week.
353
00:21:19,570 --> 00:21:21,340
I've had my LinkedIn profile hacked.
354
00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:22,690
I get smishing attacks all.
355
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:24,490
It's like, hey, is this so and so?
356
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:28,430
And you're like what I always tell
people now is just delete 'em.
357
00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:31,220
Don't even engage because
they want you to engage.
358
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,320
They want you to engage.
359
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,080
They're gonna try and trick you in
some way, but you're also proving
360
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,580
that that is an active phone number.
361
00:21:37,585 --> 00:21:37,815
Mm-hmm.
362
00:21:37,995 --> 00:21:41,420
And the last thing you wanna do is get
yourself on yet another list of, at
363
00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:43,010
least this is an active phone number.
364
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:49,970
We know that this phone number works, so
the amount of attacks on us on the daily,
365
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:53,210
on the weekly is gone through the roof.
366
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,200
And so we have to always be on guard right
now in a way that we never had to be.
367
00:21:57,605 --> 00:21:59,795
We've talked about it
could affect everybody.
368
00:22:00,005 --> 00:22:03,575
Is there a typical financial loss for
people, or is it all over the board?
369
00:22:03,815 --> 00:22:04,595
It runs the gamut.
370
00:22:05,345 --> 00:22:05,465
Yeah.
371
00:22:05,465 --> 00:22:07,595
The typical loss is everything you have.
372
00:22:08,105 --> 00:22:08,495
Oh, boy.
373
00:22:08,945 --> 00:22:09,815
So it's hard to say.
374
00:22:09,815 --> 00:22:14,465
I had a call from a victim in Hawaii
this week who lost $3 million.
375
00:22:14,465 --> 00:22:14,495
Oh.
376
00:22:14,825 --> 00:22:21,635
I spoke with a Canadian veteran who lost
25,000, and so each one is excruciating.
377
00:22:22,025 --> 00:22:22,115
Yeah.
378
00:22:22,175 --> 00:22:24,215
Each one is, you know, my Canadian.
379
00:22:24,935 --> 00:22:29,015
Victim was a veteran who just
retired from the armed forces.
380
00:22:29,405 --> 00:22:32,975
He had a severance payment
and lost all of it.
381
00:22:33,095 --> 00:22:34,535
It's only getting worse.
382
00:22:34,955 --> 00:22:40,115
It's only getting more frequent and
it's, I talk about it in, in the words
383
00:22:40,115 --> 00:22:42,485
of a crisis, we are 100% in a crisis.
384
00:22:42,545 --> 00:22:46,145
I could just hear Uncle Lou say,
just give him your information
385
00:22:46,455 --> 00:22:48,925
because you're talking about
giving millions of dollars away.
386
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,290
How do they actually get
that information from you?
387
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:58,060
And secondly, what is the responsibility
or what are the financial institutions,
388
00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:01,780
because there's obviously a paper
trail of some sort, I would assume.
389
00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:05,650
But what it, so first part is how are
they getting the information from people?
390
00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:09,401
And second part is what are the
financial institutions doing about it?
391
00:23:09,695 --> 00:23:13,450
Okay, so let me walk you through a
little bit of how this happens, because
392
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:17,080
sometimes people who don't understand
it completely will say things like,
393
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,580
I would never give away my money.
394
00:23:18,935 --> 00:23:20,885
That's not what's happening here.
395
00:23:21,125 --> 00:23:26,675
So you've met someone online that you
believe to be now the love of your life,
396
00:23:26,885 --> 00:23:31,715
and that person has isolated you from
the rest of your family and led you to
397
00:23:31,715 --> 00:23:35,555
believe that they are the only one that
can be trusted, and that if anybody tries
398
00:23:35,555 --> 00:23:39,155
to tell you that this is a bad idea, it's
because they're jealous and they don't
399
00:23:39,155 --> 00:23:42,695
understand the love that you have and
they don't understand cryptocurrency.
400
00:23:43,565 --> 00:23:48,425
And then this trusted person is going
to say, okay, so you can see that
401
00:23:48,425 --> 00:23:50,225
I live a really comfortable life.
402
00:23:50,565 --> 00:23:53,025
I got there from investing
in cryptocurrency.
403
00:23:53,295 --> 00:23:54,405
Let me show you how to do it.
404
00:23:55,005 --> 00:23:58,995
And so they'll get our victims to invest
a small amount of money, whatever small
405
00:23:58,995 --> 00:24:00,735
amount of money is to that victim.
406
00:24:00,735 --> 00:24:01,305
Mm-hmm.
407
00:24:01,311 --> 00:24:06,945
So say it's $5,000, they then take
their, they get the victim to take
408
00:24:06,945 --> 00:24:08,355
their US dollars from the bank.
409
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:13,230
Put it into a crypto exchange,
which is like a bank for
410
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:15,570
cryptocurrency, like Coinbase.
411
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:15,660
Mm-hmm.
412
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,870
And when they put that
money into Coinbase, it's an
413
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:20,310
account in their own name.
414
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:21,870
Our victim still controls all of it.
415
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,350
They'll then teach our
victim how to change their US
416
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:27,300
dollars into cryptocurrency.
417
00:24:27,870 --> 00:24:30,745
So now, instead of US
dollars, you have Bitcoin.
418
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,990
And then they say, okay, my uncle
says it's a good window for trading,
419
00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:43,710
so let's take your $5,000 worth of
Bitcoin and put it in this trading
420
00:24:43,710 --> 00:24:48,270
platform that my uncle recommends and
that I use and that all my money is in.
421
00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:49,260
So our victim.
422
00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:52,830
They think they're putting their
money into an investment platform.
423
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:55,290
It's a domain on the internet.
424
00:24:55,290 --> 00:24:58,650
It looks very real because
that's how good they are.
425
00:24:58,650 --> 00:25:02,400
They build things that look very
real, and our victim doesn't have a
426
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,420
lot of experience with cryptocurrency
investment platforms, so they have
427
00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:08,280
no reason to doubt that this is real.
428
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,870
They think they're putting their money
into it and they see a dashboard that
429
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:14,820
shows that their money is going up.
430
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,460
Oh my gosh, now it's worth 6,800.
431
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:19,020
Now it's worth 7,500.
432
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:20,310
Now it's worth 10,000.
433
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:20,970
It's doubled.
434
00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:26,610
But really their money has gone down the
blockchain into the hands of the scammer,
435
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,620
but they think they are investing money
and that they are becoming wealthy.
436
00:25:31,670 --> 00:25:34,010
That's when our scammer will
then say, you know what?
437
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:38,060
My uncle says there's a great
window this weekend for $200,000.
438
00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:41,540
And our victims will think, oh, I
never considered putting in that much.
439
00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:45,170
And that's when they use another trick
and they say, I'll do it with you.
440
00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:46,460
Let's do it together.
441
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,650
I'll put in a hundred,
you put in a hundred.
442
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,730
So our victims think, no way would this
person put money in a bad investment
443
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:54,960
and we're gonna do it together.
444
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,430
That shows how much they love me.
445
00:25:56,985 --> 00:26:00,315
They put in their 200,000 and now
it's half a million dollars, and they
446
00:26:00,315 --> 00:26:03,165
think, oh my God, this really works.
447
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:04,305
I'm gonna be wealthy.
448
00:26:04,305 --> 00:26:07,935
And then they start liquidating
everything at the request of the scammer.
449
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,320
I am John Dole's son.
450
00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:09,800
Mm-hmm.
451
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,875
So I'm gonna play, my dad was raised
in foster care and orphanages, so he
452
00:26:13,875 --> 00:26:15,135
didn't trust anybody with anything.
453
00:26:15,345 --> 00:26:15,915
Let's go.
454
00:26:16,125 --> 00:26:19,675
So I'm sitting here listening to
this and I'm thinking to myself.
455
00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:23,545
If it sounds too good to
be true, it probably is.
456
00:26:23,725 --> 00:26:26,785
So again, I'm just playing out that
person, my Uncle Lou, whatever.
457
00:26:27,265 --> 00:26:27,505
Yep.
458
00:26:27,595 --> 00:26:28,825
How is that manipulator?
459
00:26:28,825 --> 00:26:29,605
That scammer?
460
00:26:29,635 --> 00:26:31,345
Are they talking to me digitally?
461
00:26:31,345 --> 00:26:32,485
Are they calling me?
462
00:26:32,845 --> 00:26:34,915
Are they, I know you say
they have now models to do.
463
00:26:35,185 --> 00:26:37,045
How are they doing that to me?
464
00:26:37,045 --> 00:26:37,885
How are they working?
465
00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:38,575
My emotions.
466
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:40,510
It's mostly text.
467
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,940
It's mostly using tricks.
468
00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:45,910
Like are you saying you
don't trust what I'm saying?
469
00:26:45,910 --> 00:26:47,320
I thought we were in this together.
470
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,090
I thought this was a serious relationship.
471
00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:50,350
Maybe I need to look elsewhere.
472
00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:52,510
Maybe you're not as serious
about me as I thought you were.
473
00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:55,680
And then that gets Hmmmm they
use all kinds of psychological
474
00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:59,400
techniques that as we sit here, we
think, I wouldn't fall for that.
475
00:27:00,030 --> 00:27:02,400
But when we are.
476
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:07,410
Alone in our house, and we've isolated
because we really can't trust anybody
477
00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:10,800
with this story because maybe even a
little bit in the back of our head,
478
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,930
we think maybe this isn't right.
479
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:15,780
So I actually don't wanna
tell anybody about this.
480
00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:19,820
And the only person I'm trusting is this
person on the other end of the text.
481
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,930
And they're so pretty and they have
such a nice life and they seem to really
482
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:27,350
be into me and they know everything
about me and they really accept me
483
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:29,710
as I am and this is gonna work out.
484
00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:34,180
That's where we get, and it's not on
day one or day four that this happens.
485
00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:41,140
It's on day 73 where this person
has been in this with you nonstop.
486
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:42,460
It's hard to.
487
00:27:43,315 --> 00:27:46,195
Explain the endorphin rush.
488
00:27:46,255 --> 00:27:51,595
It's hard to explain the endorphin
rush of being in love with the
489
00:27:52,435 --> 00:27:56,155
anticipated endorphin rush of,
and I'm also gonna be wealthy.
490
00:27:56,455 --> 00:27:57,055
Oh my goodness.
491
00:27:57,175 --> 00:27:59,905
So, yeah, John Dobel
may not fall for this.
492
00:28:00,115 --> 00:28:03,055
He may be the guy that's
never gonna do this.
493
00:28:03,505 --> 00:28:06,415
But I'll tell you what, I've got
an email box full of people who
494
00:28:06,415 --> 00:28:08,020
would, oh, I think John Dobel would.
495
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:09,400
Oh, you think you would?
496
00:28:09,645 --> 00:28:14,565
They probably have figured out how to
tap into our, this can't be, I'm too
497
00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:18,675
smart for this, or it's not gonna happen
to me because I figured it all out.
498
00:28:18,790 --> 00:28:20,625
Uhhuh, you know, because it's just enough.
499
00:28:20,625 --> 00:28:24,465
I got a LinkedIn contact, somebody
said to me, and it was just weird.
500
00:28:24,465 --> 00:28:26,115
And I use LinkedIn for business.
501
00:28:26,115 --> 00:28:28,065
I don't use it for
anything else, so I, right.
502
00:28:28,065 --> 00:28:29,685
But it was a weird thing and it was like.
503
00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:31,160
Do I know you have.
504
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,160
We met at a conference or something
and I was like, okay, this is fishy.
505
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:34,580
Right?
506
00:28:34,580 --> 00:28:38,030
But then they came back and said, have
you seen a lot of Asian women online?
507
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:40,880
And I immediately was like, oh, okay.
508
00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:43,700
If I was susceptible, if I
was like, well, that could be.
509
00:28:44,415 --> 00:28:45,555
Maybe a little strange.
510
00:28:45,555 --> 00:28:46,005
Woo.
511
00:28:46,005 --> 00:28:46,425
Okay.
512
00:28:46,905 --> 00:28:51,465
I could see that I reported this
thing and I also, because I spent
513
00:28:51,465 --> 00:28:55,235
so much time dealing with this right
now, I could tell that it was ai.
514
00:28:55,475 --> 00:28:59,495
Yes, it was an AI picture and I
was like, this is an AI picture
515
00:28:59,495 --> 00:29:00,725
and there are some tricks.
516
00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:03,260
I can only speak to LinkedIn
and plays like that, but look
517
00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:04,430
and see, have they posted?
518
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:05,540
And they'll get better at that.
519
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:07,190
They'll start doing
all this crazy posting.
520
00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:07,935
Yes, they're good.
521
00:29:08,155 --> 00:29:11,300
So yes, I do think that my dad could
have been taken in just like I think
522
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:13,250
I could be taken in just like anybody.
523
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:17,300
So before we get to like, how do we
stop it, let's talk about what is,
524
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,000
I want to talk about the financial
institution's responsibility.
525
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,870
What do they, and then what law
enforcement, I've lost everything.
526
00:29:23,995 --> 00:29:24,415
Mm-hmm.
527
00:29:24,555 --> 00:29:25,575
I'm a widow.
528
00:29:26,075 --> 00:29:26,495
Mm-hmm.
529
00:29:26,780 --> 00:29:30,605
I've had my husband's pension or my
wife's pension and now I've lost it.
530
00:29:30,965 --> 00:29:34,565
I go back to Bank of America or
whomever I bank with, what's their
531
00:29:34,565 --> 00:29:35,915
responsibility at this point?
532
00:29:38,135 --> 00:29:38,705
None.
533
00:29:39,455 --> 00:29:42,504
And it's interesting 'cause we wanna
look at, right now we're looking at
534
00:29:42,504 --> 00:29:46,555
banking and law enforcement and yes,
those two should be held accountable.
535
00:29:47,754 --> 00:29:53,845
That is the work that I do, is
to try and raise the standard.
536
00:29:54,235 --> 00:29:58,375
Of the service that you are going to
get from law enforcement and the service
537
00:29:58,375 --> 00:30:02,245
that you're going to get from banking,
that is the job that I've given myself.
538
00:30:04,554 --> 00:30:10,945
I think that there are plenty of banks
who will let you walk right out the
539
00:30:10,945 --> 00:30:16,225
door or will let you easily wire this
from your account where you don't
540
00:30:16,225 --> 00:30:18,534
even have to talk to anybody to do it.
541
00:30:19,285 --> 00:30:22,705
Then there are others where I'm just,
I was just texting with a friend
542
00:30:22,705 --> 00:30:27,415
in Boise where they will literally
almost stand in front of the door
543
00:30:27,415 --> 00:30:30,925
and tell you that this is a scam
and that you really shouldn't do it.
544
00:30:31,315 --> 00:30:34,440
The banks are often caught in
between a rock and a hard place.
545
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:34,680
Mm-hmm.
546
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,825
When they have a victim coming
in, who's demanding this, who's
547
00:30:37,825 --> 00:30:42,145
been well coached, about what to
say and who wants their money.
548
00:30:42,835 --> 00:30:48,655
Yes, banks, but banks should be having
better controls about how, where this
549
00:30:48,655 --> 00:30:50,125
money is going and how it's going.
550
00:30:50,395 --> 00:30:54,265
They need, we need better standards
and better education at the front
551
00:30:54,265 --> 00:30:56,935
lines, and we need better education.
552
00:30:56,935 --> 00:30:59,875
This is something we're working
on talking to victims about.
553
00:31:00,115 --> 00:31:02,425
What could have turned
you around at that point?
554
00:31:02,425 --> 00:31:05,125
Like what could someone have
said to you at that point that
555
00:31:05,125 --> 00:31:06,325
might have made you turn around?
556
00:31:06,940 --> 00:31:11,350
It's mind boggling because I do think
it's so, the tentacles are so wide.
557
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,750
You can't really blame the bank.
558
00:31:12,930 --> 00:31:15,120
They've got a customer and the
customer wants to do something.
559
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,720
Are they responsible for making
sure they don't do something dumb?
560
00:31:19,890 --> 00:31:20,250
Okay.
561
00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:24,390
Let's talk really quickly
about law enforcement.
562
00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:28,110
I have a lot of respect
for law enforcement.
563
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:30,750
I have a lot of respect for district
attorneys and people that it's hard.
564
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:33,750
There's a lot stuff out
there and a lot of rules and.
565
00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:39,180
Let's talk about where law enforcement
is and where law enforcement should go.
566
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,130
Yeah, I'd love to, and as someone
who spent my working career in
567
00:31:44,130 --> 00:31:50,580
law enforcement, it's important to
me that victims get good service
568
00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:51,870
when they come to law enforcement.
569
00:31:52,830 --> 00:31:58,980
These victims are people who have worked
their whole lives and followed rules and
570
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,560
expect law enforcement to be there when.
571
00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:05,295
Their entire livelihood
has been stolen from them.
572
00:32:05,315 --> 00:32:05,735
Mm-hmm.
573
00:32:05,910 --> 00:32:09,660
Law enforcement would take their report if
their bike was stolen from them, if their
574
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:14,790
car was stolen from them, but somehow
when it becomes their entire net worth,
575
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,860
then there's a whole bias against them
that comes down from law enforcement on
576
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:22,290
in some places, and that's difficult.
577
00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:27,210
So what I will tell you is, yes, victims
are having a very difficult time in
578
00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:29,560
some locations reporting this crime.
579
00:32:30,565 --> 00:32:36,295
That became apparent to me when my
team was able to recover some money for
580
00:32:36,295 --> 00:32:42,175
victims and wanted to educate Dallas
because we found money belonging to
581
00:32:42,175 --> 00:32:46,315
Dallas victims and say, Hey Dallas,
we've got some money for your victims.
582
00:32:46,615 --> 00:32:48,055
Do you wanna engage in this with us?
583
00:32:48,055 --> 00:32:49,300
And they were like, we
don't do cryptocurrency.
584
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:53,260
Same thing in California, same thing.
585
00:32:53,265 --> 00:32:58,685
And so what we found was a huge gap
in law enforcement's ability to take
586
00:32:58,685 --> 00:33:00,305
these reports and do anything with them.
587
00:33:00,725 --> 00:33:04,565
And so that's why I built the Crypto
coalition because I realized, oh.
588
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:11,630
I live in a bubble because I work with
a task force that is well educated
589
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:14,900
and well funded by the state of
California, and not everybody has that.
590
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,050
Mm-hmm.
591
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:21,020
So I made it my mission to find others
that knew how to do this and then use
592
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:25,130
those people to teach others in the
United States how to do this work.
593
00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:27,490
And so I built this coalition
that's gone from 85.
594
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,280
Members of law enforcement to
today, over 2000 active members
595
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,700
of law enforcement that are doing
cryptocurrency investigations.
596
00:33:36,150 --> 00:33:41,310
So I'm working to build the ground
floor when people come in that
597
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:44,520
their, at least their report is
taken and something is done with it.
598
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,600
It's fascinating to me that someone
could show up at my door with a gun.
599
00:33:49,015 --> 00:33:50,905
Rob, I might have money in a little safe.
600
00:33:51,085 --> 00:33:51,325
Yep.
601
00:33:51,385 --> 00:33:52,195
They take the money.
602
00:33:52,555 --> 00:33:53,875
Law enforcement would be all over that.
603
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,035
I'd have fbi I'd have at, I'd have
everybody in the world on that.
604
00:33:57,035 --> 00:34:01,475
And so is, and again, I don't think that
law enforcement are like, ah, whatever.
605
00:34:01,535 --> 00:34:03,455
This person got screwed
out of their money.
606
00:34:03,455 --> 00:34:05,795
Oh, well I don't think
that They don't care.
607
00:34:06,575 --> 00:34:07,745
So what is it?
608
00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:11,765
Is it just a lack of education
because crypto is so complicated?
609
00:34:12,095 --> 00:34:13,865
Is that what these
criminals are relying on?
610
00:34:13,865 --> 00:34:16,300
That it's just too much
to try to track this down?
611
00:34:17,555 --> 00:34:19,685
I'm glad you're giving me the
opportunity to explain, because
612
00:34:19,685 --> 00:34:20,855
I think this is important.
613
00:34:20,915 --> 00:34:25,885
When you think of the financial crimes
detective at any agency, I. They probably
614
00:34:25,885 --> 00:34:30,205
got voluntold to be there for a lot
of people who become police officers.
615
00:34:30,535 --> 00:34:33,955
They wanna be out on the streets
and they want to be fighting crime
616
00:34:34,345 --> 00:34:38,005
every day on the streets, and so
there's probably, they probably got
617
00:34:38,005 --> 00:34:39,805
voluntold to be in financial crimes.
618
00:34:39,805 --> 00:34:43,975
Not everybody loves this as interesting
and sexy as the rest of us find it.
619
00:34:43,975 --> 00:34:44,665
Not everybody does.
620
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:49,350
And so not only are they having to do
financial crime investigations, they
621
00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:55,080
are having, they are being asked to
learn an entire new technology that even
622
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,190
the rest of the world hasn't embraced
cryptocurrency, but now they've gotta
623
00:34:59,190 --> 00:35:00,990
be in a cryptocurrency investigator.
624
00:35:00,990 --> 00:35:04,560
That's a tall order for someone
who did not come in asking to
625
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,690
be some sort of technologist.
626
00:35:06,990 --> 00:35:12,600
So the real story is that
they just don't have the time.
627
00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:18,940
They don't have the tools, they
don't have the training to be able
628
00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:22,840
to do this work, and so that's a huge
part of what I'm doing at Operation
629
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,480
Shamrock is how can I get you educated?
630
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,010
How can I get tools in your hands?
631
00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:30,370
How can I give you a community
of people that do this work also
632
00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:33,550
so that you can do better so that
you're not reinventing the wheel?
633
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:35,110
Oh, okay.
634
00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:36,520
That leads me to a whole.
635
00:35:38,125 --> 00:35:41,845
Like, why in the world is a nonprofit
and I'm grateful that you are, but
636
00:35:41,845 --> 00:35:45,085
that it's coming from a nonprofit
as opposed to, I don't know.
637
00:35:45,085 --> 00:35:45,715
Thank you.
638
00:35:46,165 --> 00:35:47,155
Thank you for saying that.
639
00:35:47,185 --> 00:35:48,535
Yes, it's a problem.
640
00:35:48,655 --> 00:35:50,305
Yes, it is a problem, right?
641
00:35:50,485 --> 00:35:52,135
I'm doing a government job.
642
00:35:52,135 --> 00:35:52,225
Yes.
643
00:35:52,225 --> 00:35:54,715
That the government should,
there should be a government
644
00:35:54,715 --> 00:35:56,365
position for what I'm doing.
645
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,660
There isn't.
646
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:04,350
And so I am self-funding at the
moment, my desire to make sure that
647
00:36:04,350 --> 00:36:09,420
victims have a place to land when
they come in to complain about this
648
00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:11,550
crime that is terrorizing our nation.
649
00:36:11,855 --> 00:36:15,690
Well, I hopefully you won't be
self-funding for long because
650
00:36:15,690 --> 00:36:19,110
I do think that there is going
to be, there is such a need.
651
00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:23,110
Out there for this, that I can't
even imagine that in a very short
652
00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:26,650
period of time as the wheel gets
spinning, that there will be
653
00:36:27,460 --> 00:36:29,590
something fun somewhere for this.
654
00:36:29,590 --> 00:36:32,440
But let, before we get to
that, we've talked about the
655
00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:34,900
financial impact on people.
656
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,320
A couple of things before we get to
prevention and awareness to think
657
00:36:38,415 --> 00:36:40,120
what happens when they get caught.
658
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:43,000
Is anybody being convicted of crime?
659
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,550
Now you said of China, if
somebody, if a Chinese citizen
660
00:36:45,550 --> 00:36:48,070
gets, something happens, maybe the
Chinese government gets involved.
661
00:36:48,655 --> 00:36:51,895
We're talking about thousands of
American citizens getting robbed.
662
00:36:52,675 --> 00:36:52,765
Mm-hmm.
663
00:36:53,005 --> 00:36:54,685
Is anybody getting arrested for this?
664
00:36:54,685 --> 00:36:56,425
Is anything happening criminally?
665
00:36:57,505 --> 00:37:01,465
No, and that's a huge piece
of it that I continue to push.
666
00:37:01,945 --> 00:37:03,835
That it is not a mystery.
667
00:37:03,835 --> 00:37:04,975
It is not a who'd done it.
668
00:37:05,065 --> 00:37:09,115
We know who is running these compounds.
669
00:37:09,175 --> 00:37:11,755
They are known criminals
that have been prosecuted.
670
00:37:12,145 --> 00:37:15,055
They are known criminals that have
been sanctioned, and they own the
671
00:37:15,055 --> 00:37:17,155
property where this bad activity is.
672
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:18,310
Is happening.
673
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,580
So yes, I think there is an opportunity
that should be exploited to indict
674
00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:31,510
these people and arrest them when
they come into a country where we have
675
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:33,340
cooperative allies ready to arrest them.
676
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:34,810
We know these people travel.
677
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,270
They don't stay in Cambodia and Myanmar.
678
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:37,390
Mm-hmm.
679
00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:39,400
They own homes in Australia.
680
00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:41,230
They travel to the United States.
681
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:43,630
They travel and there's
opportunity to pick them up.
682
00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:45,820
So I think we are remiss.
683
00:37:46,215 --> 00:37:50,865
In not pursuing that type
of enforcement against them?
684
00:37:51,375 --> 00:37:54,885
Well, yeah, because obviously
if we can evade Panama to get
685
00:37:54,885 --> 00:37:58,605
General Noriega who was involved
in basically money laundering,
686
00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:00,135
then we can do a lot of things.
687
00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:05,055
Let me ask you then, is it knowledge
or is it just will, why aren't these
688
00:38:05,055 --> 00:38:07,545
people being, what's stopping that?
689
00:38:09,465 --> 00:38:13,215
Well, I mean, I've definitely,
I. Let me say it this way.
690
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:23,830
I have been told on repeat that there
is no appetite for pursuing these cases.
691
00:38:24,850 --> 00:38:30,250
It is my hope that with a new
administration, that when that new
692
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:38,440
administration becomes aware that
a foreign bad actor is taking.
693
00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:46,450
A generation's worth of wealth out
of the United States to then perhaps
694
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:52,900
return to the United States and use it
to buy out real estate from under us.
695
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:57,125
It is my hope that this
administration will take heed.
696
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,250
And we'll take decisive action and put the
resources into fighting and fighting for
697
00:39:03,250 --> 00:39:08,650
our citizenry that is really being taken
advantage of by adverse foreign interests.
698
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:13,060
It does sound like information is
key in this whole, all the way around
699
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:17,050
from top to bottom, that to inform
people to get the word out on that.
700
00:39:17,050 --> 00:39:19,270
So let's in our last few minutes together.
701
00:39:20,125 --> 00:39:22,195
I would say, let's talk about
future trends, but it sounds
702
00:39:22,195 --> 00:39:26,275
like it's just an ever evolving,
and crypto is so complicated and
703
00:39:26,275 --> 00:39:27,745
blockchain is so complicated.
704
00:39:27,895 --> 00:39:32,185
So let's talk about what
the average person can do.
705
00:39:32,575 --> 00:39:33,745
We've said it's not obvious.
706
00:39:34,015 --> 00:39:37,765
What can the average person do to protect
themselves against these sort of scams?
707
00:39:38,515 --> 00:39:44,125
First thing, if there are platforms
that you do not use and say
708
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:46,075
WhatsApp, take that off your phone.
709
00:39:46,465 --> 00:39:49,435
You're going to get added to
WhatsApp groups and they're gonna
710
00:39:49,435 --> 00:39:53,425
start talking about investments,
and that's a dangerous place to be.
711
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:53,630
Mm-hmm.
712
00:39:53,770 --> 00:39:57,475
You don't wanna be anywhere where
you could be tricked into something
713
00:39:57,825 --> 00:39:59,145
because they're good tricksters.
714
00:39:59,925 --> 00:40:07,335
Number two, you have to be
wildly aware at all times that.
715
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:12,360
Scammers are trying to trick you and
the way they're going to trick you,
716
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:17,370
whether it's any one of the scam type
of scams you're looking at, is they
717
00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:22,170
are going to either build trust or if
it's a different type of scam, they're
718
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:26,790
going to raise your blood pressure
quickly, make you need to react quickly
719
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:31,035
to something and not give you time to
reflect before you need to take action.
720
00:40:31,635 --> 00:40:35,475
So my advice for anyone is really
to treat your phone and your
721
00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:40,635
computer as to use caution with all
of that, that when an electronic
722
00:40:40,635 --> 00:40:43,695
communication comes in, be judgemental.
723
00:40:43,995 --> 00:40:48,585
Be worried that somebody is trying
to take your money because they are,
724
00:40:48,645 --> 00:40:52,485
they, yes, somebody will try and take
your money three times this week.
725
00:40:52,755 --> 00:40:56,355
And so be looking for those
people because they are 100%
726
00:40:56,355 --> 00:40:57,435
out there and coming your way.
727
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,680
The last thing I would say is that
we need to talk amongst each other.
728
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,770
That, my dad called me and he
got hit with a scam on Facebook.
729
00:41:06,625 --> 00:41:10,495
My dad loves a bargain and he loves
Hoka sneakers, and he could get
730
00:41:10,495 --> 00:41:12,325
his hocus sneakers for 50% off.
731
00:41:12,535 --> 00:41:16,195
Mm. So he gave him his credit
card and his address, and so
732
00:41:16,255 --> 00:41:17,395
we need to talk about that.
733
00:41:17,395 --> 00:41:20,755
We need to normalize , oh guys, you
won't believe what happened to me.
734
00:41:20,805 --> 00:41:24,055
We need to normalize this so that we
talk about it so that we are educating
735
00:41:24,055 --> 00:41:28,335
our friends to not be victimized in
the same way that we got victimized.
736
00:41:28,515 --> 00:41:31,575
Last thing, and I know you probably
can't answer this, but I do think it's
737
00:41:31,575 --> 00:41:33,825
important, you just named WhatsApp.
738
00:41:33,825 --> 00:41:36,075
There's Telegram, there's
Facebook, there's there.
739
00:41:36,435 --> 00:41:40,905
I was an early adopter of social media and
I am the absolute man on the island now
740
00:41:40,905 --> 00:41:44,985
because I can't stand any of it because
I find it's even LinkedIn, which is a.
741
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:50,330
A tool that people for business use all
the time is being, it's become accessible.
742
00:41:50,330 --> 00:41:51,290
It's constant.
743
00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:53,090
You have to be aware all the time.
744
00:41:53,090 --> 00:41:55,970
So I, number one, I completely
agree with you on getting
745
00:41:55,970 --> 00:41:56,870
rid of things you don't use.
746
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,120
I'm constantly telling
my wife, get rid of that.
747
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:59,570
Get rid of that.
748
00:41:59,570 --> 00:42:00,140
Get rid of that.
749
00:42:00,470 --> 00:42:03,320
Use security methods that are
tried and true, all that stuff.
750
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,040
What is the responsibility of
these social media companies,
751
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,420
especially ones that are based in.
752
00:42:10,155 --> 00:42:12,165
And you may not be able to
answer that, but I do think
753
00:42:12,165 --> 00:42:13,125
that's a part of the puzzle.
754
00:42:13,335 --> 00:42:15,975
Oh, I can get to this 100%.
755
00:42:16,755 --> 00:42:22,425
If these social media companies wanted
to stop this, they could make this stop.
756
00:42:23,265 --> 00:42:27,795
They are looking the other way
when there are massive efforts that
757
00:42:27,825 --> 00:42:30,045
could be made to make this stop.
758
00:42:30,975 --> 00:42:33,765
When we think about what's law
enforcement doing, what's banking doing?
759
00:42:33,765 --> 00:42:34,155
You know what?
760
00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:38,555
Actually both of those industries are
trying pretty hard to game up on this.
761
00:42:39,575 --> 00:42:43,745
Less so from our telcos and
our social media companies.
762
00:42:44,345 --> 00:42:44,405
Why?
763
00:42:44,975 --> 00:42:45,455
Business.
764
00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:46,504
Not being regulated.
765
00:42:46,504 --> 00:42:51,095
There's very much a business reason
in keeping all of these eyes on their
766
00:42:51,095 --> 00:42:57,305
platform, and until they are made
to do otherwise, they don't have a
767
00:42:57,305 --> 00:42:59,254
business interest in taking it down.
768
00:42:59,810 --> 00:43:03,080
But I'd argue that we've got a
moral imperative at this point,
769
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,880
that this is bigger than business.
770
00:43:05,060 --> 00:43:09,080
This is the decline of American
society if we allow it to happen
771
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,330
and we're watching it happen.
772
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,810
It's funny, you see all this different
stuff, the Zuckerbergs and the Bezos
773
00:43:14,810 --> 00:43:17,569
and all this, all the different folks
that are out there and they, this,
774
00:43:17,569 --> 00:43:19,310
that championing of free speech.
775
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:24,319
But there is a moral part of
this is that if I'm gathering
776
00:43:24,319 --> 00:43:25,350
what you're saying and I'm.
777
00:43:25,590 --> 00:43:26,070
frightened.
778
00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:28,990
And I'm so grateful that you're
out there doing this but.
779
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,200
I don't know if there's ever been a
bigger crime in the history of mankind.
780
00:43:34,189 --> 00:43:36,799
The potential is massive.
781
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:39,380
People are probably not gonna
go rob you in your house.
782
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:41,630
Statistically speaking, it
doesn't happen very often.
783
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,460
But if you look at the statistics of this,
it sounds like it's happening every day.
784
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,590
There is a moral imperative.
785
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:54,320
I don't know what the answer to that
is, Erin, but I am so, so grateful
786
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,210
that you are out there fighting the.
787
00:43:58,115 --> 00:43:59,795
Do the best I can on my end.
788
00:43:59,795 --> 00:44:02,945
I encourage all the listeners
out there to talk to their
789
00:44:02,945 --> 00:44:04,805
Uncle Lou or talk to each other.
790
00:44:05,015 --> 00:44:05,945
Don't be afraid to.
791
00:44:05,945 --> 00:44:09,635
I'm grateful for Troy coming on the
show and talk about his own experience.
792
00:44:09,995 --> 00:44:12,065
Any last thoughts you have about this?
793
00:44:12,065 --> 00:44:14,135
Anything that we could do
to sport Operation Shamrock?
794
00:44:14,135 --> 00:44:17,765
We could go to your Patreon account, I
guess, if there was one, but what can
795
00:44:17,765 --> 00:44:20,405
we do as citizens who are concerned?
796
00:44:21,935 --> 00:44:22,805
We can be kind.
797
00:44:23,135 --> 00:44:27,125
I think that that is a piece of this
that is often overlooked is, I'll
798
00:44:27,125 --> 00:44:31,924
tell you what, I do a lot of press
and I, and and frequently when the
799
00:44:31,924 --> 00:44:35,344
camera goes off, that's when someone
will say, yeah, but they're stupid.
800
00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:35,704
Right?
801
00:44:35,884 --> 00:44:36,904
Who's falling for this?
802
00:44:37,324 --> 00:44:38,434
And I think that.
803
00:44:39,619 --> 00:44:44,119
If that's the reaction that I'm getting
after I've spoken for 45 minutes about
804
00:44:44,149 --> 00:44:49,789
how awful this is, then it shows me
that there is a whole segment of society
805
00:44:50,089 --> 00:44:55,729
that thinks these people are dumb
and doesn't care about fixing this.
806
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:57,679
So, couple of points to that.
807
00:44:57,679 --> 00:44:59,659
Number one, these are not dumb people.
808
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,599
I guarantee the people
I talk to have PhDs.
809
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:04,939
They're doctors, they're
lawyers, they're business people.
810
00:45:05,479 --> 00:45:06,499
But number two.
811
00:45:07,714 --> 00:45:10,024
It's bigger than those people.
812
00:45:10,324 --> 00:45:15,604
It's our way of life that's being
targeted and that we are going to
813
00:45:15,604 --> 00:45:21,004
suffer the effects of losing this wealth
in the United States for a long time
814
00:45:21,004 --> 00:45:24,874
to come, not just financially, but
also the loss of trust that we just
815
00:45:24,874 --> 00:45:26,764
can't trust anything we see anymore.
816
00:45:26,769 --> 00:45:26,859
Mm-hmm.
817
00:45:27,019 --> 00:45:27,779
And there are major.
818
00:45:28,999 --> 00:45:30,199
Negative effects of that.
819
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:30,919
So be kind.
820
00:45:31,219 --> 00:45:35,239
You don't know who has suffered what and
you don't know because people don't wanna
821
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,869
talk about it because they're afraid
you're going to not be very nice to them.
822
00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:39,409
Yeah.
823
00:45:39,409 --> 00:45:42,819
And that probably goes to a lot of our
discourse in the society in general.
824
00:45:42,819 --> 00:45:44,739
Well, thank you so much
for coming on today.
825
00:45:45,279 --> 00:45:48,789
I can't even tell you how mind boggled
I am right now, so I'm hoping that
826
00:45:48,789 --> 00:45:50,589
other people get on board with this.
827
00:45:50,589 --> 00:45:52,119
But thank you Aaron West.
828
00:45:52,389 --> 00:45:56,759
If you if anybody wants to know about
Aaron, go to operations shamrock org.
829
00:45:57,614 --> 00:45:58,154
You can read it.
830
00:45:58,154 --> 00:45:58,964
It's a great website.
831
00:45:58,964 --> 00:45:59,774
It's quite beautiful.
832
00:46:00,224 --> 00:46:00,404
Thank you.
833
00:46:00,404 --> 00:46:01,898
I don't know who built
it, but it's quite lovely.
834
00:46:01,958 --> 00:46:02,228
Thank you.
835
00:46:02,258 --> 00:46:05,138
I will post all the stuff in
the show notes information.
836
00:46:05,138 --> 00:46:07,718
If you've been scammed, I'm sure
you could probably reach out to
837
00:46:07,718 --> 00:46:10,958
Aaron or her people and we all
have to be part of the solutions.
838
00:46:10,958 --> 00:46:11,588
Thank you, Aaron.
839
00:46:12,488 --> 00:46:13,268
Thank you so much.
00:00:53,379 --> 00:00:54,729
Welcome to the Smarticle podcast.
2
00:00:55,059 --> 00:00:58,689
Today we're going to be entering the world
of pig butchering scams, one of the most
3
00:00:58,689 --> 00:01:00,819
insidious forms of financial fraud today.
4
00:01:01,209 --> 00:01:04,419
If you've ever received a friendly message
from a stranger that seems too good to
5
00:01:04,419 --> 00:01:06,189
be true, you might have been a target.
6
00:01:06,399 --> 00:01:07,960
The scams don't just steal money.
7
00:01:08,169 --> 00:01:11,979
They destroy lives, leaving victims
financially and emotionally devastated.
8
00:01:12,429 --> 00:01:16,064
Our guest today is a superstar who
is on a mission to stop these scam.
9
00:01:16,894 --> 00:01:20,544
Erin West is a globally recognized
speaker and educator leading the fight
10
00:01:20,544 --> 00:01:25,464
against transnational organized crime
with a relentless focus on disrupting
11
00:01:25,464 --> 00:01:27,594
scam networks and protecting victims.
12
00:01:28,554 --> 00:01:33,594
As the founder of Operation Shamrock, Erin
has built a powerful coalition, uniting
13
00:01:33,594 --> 00:01:37,914
law enforcement, private industry, and
global stakeholders to combat scams,
14
00:01:38,304 --> 00:01:40,554
link transnational organized crime.
15
00:01:40,975 --> 00:01:44,935
Operations Shamrock is dedicated to
building investigative capacity and
16
00:01:44,935 --> 00:01:48,475
equipping law enforcement with tools
to take action and providing real-time
17
00:01:48,535 --> 00:01:52,615
intelligence to industry, ensuring
that criminals have nowhere to hide.
18
00:01:53,384 --> 00:01:57,385
Erin's expertise comes from 26 years
as a Deputy District attorney in Santa
19
00:01:57,385 --> 00:02:01,344
Clara County, California, where she
spent eight years with the React High
20
00:02:01,344 --> 00:02:06,385
Tech task, leading investigations into
cryptocurrency enabled crimes, SIM
21
00:02:06,385 --> 00:02:08,755
swapping and digital financial fraud.
22
00:02:09,610 --> 00:02:14,140
She also founded the Crypto Coalition,
an international network of nearly 2000
23
00:02:14,140 --> 00:02:18,160
law enforcement professionals focused
on cryptocurrency investigations.
24
00:02:18,850 --> 00:02:22,540
Now through Operation Shamrock, Erin
is on a mission to educate, mobilize,
25
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,070
and disrupt raising awareness of scam
operations, empowering law enforcement
26
00:02:27,070 --> 00:02:31,089
worldwide, and delivering actionable
intelligence to industry partners
27
00:02:31,089 --> 00:02:32,435
to stop fraud before it happens.
28
00:02:33,084 --> 00:02:36,445
Our passion, leadership, and
relentless pursuit of justice are
29
00:02:36,445 --> 00:02:39,774
driving real change in the fight
against transnational organized crime.
30
00:02:41,005 --> 00:02:42,505
Welcome everybody.
31
00:02:43,015 --> 00:02:45,984
I'm here with my new best
friend, Erin West, who runs one
32
00:02:45,984 --> 00:02:48,625
of the coolest organizations
I've ever heard of in my life.
33
00:02:49,015 --> 00:02:52,224
First off, can you just tell us who you
are and a little bit about yourself?
34
00:02:53,274 --> 00:02:53,784
Sure.
35
00:02:53,904 --> 00:02:54,865
I'm Erin West.
36
00:02:54,865 --> 00:02:59,425
I was a local prosecutor
for 26 and a half years.
37
00:02:59,425 --> 00:03:03,565
I just retired in November
to start this nonprofit.
38
00:03:03,954 --> 00:03:07,044
But when I was a prosecutor
for the last eight years, I was
39
00:03:07,044 --> 00:03:12,234
assigned to a team of detectives
who specialized in high tech crime.
40
00:03:12,834 --> 00:03:19,404
And while I was there, I became aware of a
whole new type of crime that was literally
41
00:03:19,524 --> 00:03:21,565
crushing people called pig butchering.
42
00:03:22,255 --> 00:03:26,034
The more I learned about it, the
more I realized that it was at crisis
43
00:03:26,034 --> 00:03:28,224
level and nobody had even heard of it.
44
00:03:29,214 --> 00:03:34,195
And so yeah, I made it my business to
start talking about it all the time
45
00:03:34,195 --> 00:03:36,084
everywhere to anyone who would listen.
46
00:03:36,575 --> 00:03:43,084
And that is my business because it is
a really, really destructive type of
47
00:03:43,084 --> 00:03:48,214
scamming that is laser focused at taking
the wealth of the United States away.
48
00:03:49,084 --> 00:03:52,325
That could sum up everything that I've
been doing with this series because
49
00:03:53,434 --> 00:03:56,195
it is so pervasive and so frightening.
50
00:03:56,494 --> 00:03:59,974
I actually we're gonna hear later
from someone who was actually
51
00:04:00,154 --> 00:04:03,515
scammed in a pig butchering scam,
and I think a lot of people think,
52
00:04:03,575 --> 00:04:05,255
oh, that could never happen to me.
53
00:04:05,674 --> 00:04:08,095
And or that only happens to dumb people.
54
00:04:08,095 --> 00:04:12,415
And I could tell folks that it doesn't
just happen to people that aren't
55
00:04:12,415 --> 00:04:15,405
aware It happens to people everyday.
56
00:04:16,314 --> 00:04:16,914
Let's start
57
00:04:17,544 --> 00:04:19,575
with a definition of what is
58
00:04:20,455 --> 00:04:20,775
pig butchering?
59
00:04:21,225 --> 00:04:24,205
Cuz I'd never heard of it before
two weeks ago and I consider
60
00:04:24,225 --> 00:04:25,585
myself a fairly well read guy.
61
00:04:26,285 --> 00:04:27,645
And that's the problem.
62
00:04:27,645 --> 00:04:30,555
This is the biggest threat
that you've never heard of.
63
00:04:30,555 --> 00:04:34,785
This is the world's biggest crime that
not enough people are talking about.
64
00:04:34,785 --> 00:04:37,335
And so that's why I talk
about it all the time.
65
00:04:37,365 --> 00:04:41,805
'cause I wanna make sure that I've hit
your uncle in Iowa and I've hit my next
66
00:04:41,805 --> 00:04:44,055
door neighbor and my kids' soccer coach.
67
00:04:44,445 --> 00:04:47,355
This is where we need to
get this story because.
68
00:04:48,075 --> 00:04:51,165
The bankers have heard of about
it now, law enforcement now knows
69
00:04:51,165 --> 00:04:55,305
what it is, but the fact is middle
America does not know what this is,
70
00:04:55,305 --> 00:04:57,015
and it's literally coming for them.
71
00:04:57,795 --> 00:05:03,315
So the way the scam works is I think we've
all gotten those texts on our phone that
72
00:05:03,315 --> 00:05:05,325
appear to be directed to someone else.
73
00:05:05,835 --> 00:05:05,985
Mm-hmm.
74
00:05:06,135 --> 00:05:08,205
And what that is the beginning of a scam.
75
00:05:08,345 --> 00:05:12,605
While it might appear like not a big
deal and oh, this is kind of scammy,
76
00:05:13,025 --> 00:05:15,665
in fact, that is the first step.
77
00:05:16,070 --> 00:05:21,150
To luring you in on the long
con, that is pig butchering.
78
00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:28,260
What that scammer will do is over a period
of say, 90 days, spend four to five hours
79
00:05:28,260 --> 00:05:35,880
a day texting and really selling you the
dream of this fantastic relationship, the
80
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,920
relationship that you've always wanted.
81
00:05:38,375 --> 00:05:43,660
And complimented with photographs of how
the scammer the person, the love interest
82
00:05:43,660 --> 00:05:48,910
for you is living a really high class
life and is driving a beautiful car and
83
00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:51,640
doing expensive travel and living well.
84
00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:54,130
So they get our victims to buy into.
85
00:05:54,130 --> 00:05:58,270
I'm in a relationship with this person,
and this is a person of means, and
86
00:05:58,270 --> 00:06:03,250
ultimately the scammer will disclose
that, you know how I afford this, it's
87
00:06:03,250 --> 00:06:05,350
because I invest in cryptocurrency.
88
00:06:05,815 --> 00:06:10,465
And I didn't know how to invest in
cryptocurrency either, but my uncle
89
00:06:10,465 --> 00:06:12,145
taught me and my uncle could teach you.
90
00:06:12,745 --> 00:06:14,875
And that's when the second dream is sold.
91
00:06:14,875 --> 00:06:17,395
And that is you too could
be wealthy like this.
92
00:06:18,175 --> 00:06:23,935
And that perfect storm of basic human
wants and needs of wanting to be loved
93
00:06:23,935 --> 00:06:29,575
and then wanting to be well financed is
really too much for people to resist and
94
00:06:29,575 --> 00:06:31,885
they end up losing all of their money.
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It.
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Shocking.
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When I talked to a guy by the name of
Troy who works now, he works for, I
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think you guys, you actually know him.
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00:06:40,140 --> 00:06:41,215
In fact, he know he's one that I know.
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He was the one that sicked me on
you . I was like, you have to talk
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to Erin West when you talk to Troy.
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And he's wonderful because he's
one of these people that says,
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look, I'm gonna try to help people.
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'cause I do know from my research, and
maybe you could speak a little to this a
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little bit, is why don't people report.
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Hmm.
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The fact that people don't report this
when they're not losing $500, they're
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losing sometimes hundreds of thousands of
dollars that are going into these scams.
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And I would love for you to talk a
little bit about like where these, how
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these scams originate and all that.
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But why don't people report this?
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You're absolutely right about the
amount of the loss and the amount of the
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loss, no matter how many dollars it is
going to be everything the victim has.
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That's the goal.
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So during that time where the
scammer is getting to know the
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victim, part of their really targeted
process is to find out everywhere
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that the victim is holding money.
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Because the way pig butchering
works is that it doesn't end until
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they've taken every last cent.
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By the time our victims.
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Realize that they've lost everything
and oftentimes have even been lured into
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getting a loan and putting more money in.
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They're devastated.
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This is a whole class of victim that I
had never seen before and I prosecuted
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really severe sexual assaults.
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I've put prosecuted homicide.
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I prosecute really hate crimes,
but this is a person who, by the
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time they get to me, has lost
their entire financial footing.
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As well as realized that the person they
trusted beyond all others, set them up for
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this fall and had been planning it since
the first time they started speaking.
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So our victims are devastated and
then they become humiliated and they
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really do a lot of self blame of how
could I have let this happen to me?
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And what they're not realizing is.
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They are no match, no matter how smart
anyone is for a team of people who
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do this all day, every day and who
are armed with really sophisticated
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psychological techniques and they catch
our victims not on their best day, and
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00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,640
then they sell them a whole idea, a
whole concept, a whole dream, and our
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victims, people want to believe the good.
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00:09:06,735 --> 00:09:11,475
So anyway, so our victims, there's very
much a stigma to this and very much when
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they report to law enforcement, oftentimes
they are led to believe that this isn't
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a crime and that this is a civil matter
or that there's nothing that can be done
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for them, and that is really traumatizing.
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One of the worst things about this
is we don't even understand how
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big the problem is because we don't
have enough people reporting it.
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00:09:34,890 --> 00:09:36,270
Yeah, well, we're banging the drum.
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00:09:36,510 --> 00:09:40,240
I think that you, with work that
you're doing and others it's the ba
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the drama's being banged for sure.
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And hopefully in a year or sooner
we'll have a better understanding.
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00:09:45,550 --> 00:09:48,880
But let's start with
the term pig butchering.
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It is so weird.
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When I first heard, I was
like, what in the what?
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So where did it come from?
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What is it?
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And you talked about this
sophisticated group of people.
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Can you talk a little bit about what
that is and what that looks like?
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00:10:02,020 --> 00:10:05,740
Yeah, so I wanna take you back
to pre Covid and pre Covid.
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A group of Chinese organized gangsters,
literally known Chinese criminals,
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decided to capitalize on the fact
that cryptocurrency is banned in
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China and gambling is banned in China.
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And so they started building casino towers
in Seehan, Oakville, Cambodia, because
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they thought, okay, well this is where
we can build an entire gambling mecca.
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And as we sit today, there's
something like 133 casinos
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in this small seaside town.
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What's happened is we all know Covid
came and people weren't moving.
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They weren't going to these casinos,
and so the criminals pivoted and
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they thought, okay, well let's
think of something else we could do.
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Let's do Shah Zupan.
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That's their term, translates
to pig butchering, which means.
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00:10:55,310 --> 00:10:58,610
We're gonna fatten up our victims
with love bombs and all kinds of
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dreams that we're gonna sell them.
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And then ultimately we are going
to slit their throat, butcher them,
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and take everything they have.
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And so that is the vile
nature of what this is.
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This is not a, just like you said, that
people aren't losing a small amount
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of money, they're losing everything.
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It is the most destructive form of theft.
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So they call it pig butchering.
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And so they, this is run by
Chinese organized crime and to.
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Effectively do this work.
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They needed a huge human workforce
and to get that workforce, they
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started advertising for employees
and they made it seem very real,
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like it was a very real job.
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And at that time, and currently
there's a large unemployment problem
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in Southeast Asia and in the countries
that they prey upon, and they're
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able to offer an impressive salary.
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So people apply to these jobs.
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They have interviews for these jobs.
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They have every reason to
believe that it's a legit job.
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And then when they take the airline ticket
that the company provides and they fly
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to Bangkok, they arrive in Bangkok and
they are, their passports are taken, they
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are put on buses, and they are routed to
Cambodian compounds where they are then
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locked down and forced to do this work.
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A slave population, are they
there forever or can get out?
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00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:27,760
So what we know is that they are, this
is happening largely in Cambodia and
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in Myanmar and every every operation
that's running this has their own
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rules about how people get out.
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00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:39,340
We know that we've seen some rescues
where family members have paid a
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ransom to get their family member out.
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We know of certain countries that
have involved their ambassador
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and have gotten people out.
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We are in touch with.
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00:12:50,230 --> 00:12:54,520
People inside the compounds who want
to get out but don't have ransom
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00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,290
payments and will likely stay there.
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They're frequently there until
either someone rescues them or
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00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,250
until they can make this payment.
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00:13:03,795 --> 00:13:04,375
Oh my gosh.
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00:13:04,505 --> 00:13:06,800
I'm gonna ask the obvious 'cause
that's way my brain works.
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I'm gonna ask the obvious question.
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00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:12,170
What in the world is going on in
Myanmar and Cambodia with these
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00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:16,670
government, and how is it possible
that China, the United States.
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Authorities aren't doing
something about it.
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00:13:21,965 --> 00:13:23,340
You're asking all the right questions.
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00:13:23,415 --> 00:13:24,555
Let's take 'em one by one.
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00:13:24,555 --> 00:13:27,195
So, Myanmar is in a civil war right now.
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00:13:27,645 --> 00:13:32,435
It's not at all clear who's running
anything and what isn't being
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00:13:32,435 --> 00:13:36,905
touched in this civil war are the
massive compounds that are housing.
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00:13:36,905 --> 00:13:40,140
I. This enslaved population doing
this work, and that's because
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there's too much money in it.
219
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:44,610
This is a business like
we've never seen before.
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00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:50,850
This is an amazingly lucrative
operation that enables the gangsters
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00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:55,830
running it to pay off all kinds of
protection so that they're not touched.
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When we look at Cambodia, we know
that this industry makes up half of
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00:14:01,890 --> 00:14:05,430
the GDP for the country of Cambodia.
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Wow.
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There's too much money.
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00:14:09,170 --> 00:14:14,660
We are dealing with a region of the world
with a embedded corruption problem where
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people can be paid to look the other way
that enables these compounds to exist.
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00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:25,160
But you ask a really important question
about China and the United States and
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00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:28,670
their absence in really handling this.
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00:14:28,670 --> 00:14:32,960
What we have seen is we've
seen China step in where.
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00:14:33,395 --> 00:14:39,245
They essentially, they set rules and
their rules were do not target chi
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00:14:39,275 --> 00:14:44,345
the Chinese population as victims
of the financial scheme and do not
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00:14:44,945 --> 00:14:47,105
human traffic, Chinese employees.
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00:14:47,375 --> 00:14:51,425
We don't want Chinese victims on
either side and where the compounds of
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00:14:51,425 --> 00:14:56,565
violated that we've seen the Chinese
step in and liberate compounds , with
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00:14:56,565 --> 00:15:01,245
the assistance of people on the
ground there, we haven't seen.
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00:15:01,875 --> 00:15:05,235
A large response from the United
States in any part of this.
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00:15:05,625 --> 00:15:06,405
Why do you think that is?
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I wish I knew.
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00:15:10,725 --> 00:15:16,695
I've spent the last three years
knocking on doors, speaking politely,
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00:15:16,725 --> 00:15:23,175
yelling, doing my level best to
raise the awareness and the critical
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00:15:23,175 --> 00:15:25,425
nature of this to the right people.
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00:15:26,385 --> 00:15:29,955
But what we know for sure is that we have.
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00:15:30,885 --> 00:15:38,085
A massive illicit economy being
run by Chinese organized criminals
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00:15:38,115 --> 00:15:43,695
that is largely unchecked and is
having no friction put upon it
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00:15:44,295 --> 00:15:50,595
as we watch them steal an entire
generation's worth of wealth.
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Oh my goodness.
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00:15:51,735 --> 00:15:52,845
Alright, I'm getting depressed.
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Let's talk about the groups of people
that they, so who do they target?
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Is it specific groups of people?
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00:15:58,935 --> 00:16:02,145
And then what weapons do they use
if that, I don't know if that's the
252
00:16:02,145 --> 00:16:05,955
right word, but how do they identify
and target the victims in general?
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00:16:07,065 --> 00:16:12,465
I would love to say, I think with the
phone numbers, I don't know that that's
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00:16:12,855 --> 00:16:13,875
targeted at all.
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00:16:13,875 --> 00:16:17,085
I think that is just a blanket, every
single phone number that they can
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00:16:17,085 --> 00:16:19,275
find that is active will be targeted.
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Hmm.
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00:16:19,815 --> 00:16:25,455
But I do know from talking to people
inside that they do target groups of
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people that they assume will be wealthy.
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00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:32,025
So I know that they invade
travel groups on Facebook.
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00:16:32,055 --> 00:16:36,315
They invade fancy food groups,
wine groups where they think that
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00:16:36,315 --> 00:16:38,205
they will meet wealthier people.
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00:16:38,955 --> 00:16:41,325
And from there they try
to begin friendships and.
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00:16:42,405 --> 00:16:44,985
Romantic relationships,
and so that's what they do.
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00:16:45,615 --> 00:16:49,605
I used to say that I wish I knew who they
were targeting because then I could really
266
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focus on educating that population alone.
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00:16:52,665 --> 00:16:57,585
But the fact is I've seen victims that are
in their twenties up to their eighties.
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They literally will go after anyone that
is interested in their scheme of getting
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rich by investing in cryptocurrency.
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00:17:06,645 --> 00:17:09,945
So just to make sure I understand
this is a hundred percent digital.
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There's no contact between the people.
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This is all done online.
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Well, no.
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Oh, thank you for asking that.
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Oh, because that, I think,
is a window of opportunity.
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00:17:19,845 --> 00:17:22,545
So what we've seen, what we
know about these criminals
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is they pivot, pivot, pivot.
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00:17:24,135 --> 00:17:27,555
And every time we think we're making
any kind of inroad, they pivot.
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00:17:28,155 --> 00:17:33,405
So one of their more recent pivots has
been showing up at people's houses.
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So here's how this works.
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00:17:35,295 --> 00:17:41,085
Instead of having the victims send
the money electronically, they have
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00:17:41,085 --> 00:17:46,365
started some, well, in many cases,
having the victims go to their bank
283
00:17:46,455 --> 00:17:51,285
and withdraw a significant amount of
cash, then having that cash picked
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00:17:51,285 --> 00:17:53,325
up by a courier at their home.
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00:17:53,925 --> 00:17:57,855
To me, that feels like an opportunity,
that feels like an opportunity with
286
00:17:57,855 --> 00:18:02,925
people on us soil to make arrests
and to disrupt what they're doing.
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00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:05,895
So they're building
this romantic interest.
288
00:18:06,285 --> 00:18:09,765
Do they ever put in people, like
they send a romantic interest
289
00:18:09,765 --> 00:18:12,105
to the like, hi, I'm so-and-so.
290
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:14,895
We've been talking online and
now gimme the keys to the crypto.
291
00:18:15,825 --> 00:18:17,295
So that's so funny too.
292
00:18:17,445 --> 00:18:21,765
So it used to be, I've been in this for
three years now and watched it develop.
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00:18:21,945 --> 00:18:24,855
It used to be we would say if they
won't get on a phone call with you,
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00:18:24,855 --> 00:18:26,145
then that means they're not real.
295
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:26,440
Mm-hmm.
296
00:18:26,565 --> 00:18:28,455
Then they started hiring
people to make phone calls.
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00:18:28,485 --> 00:18:30,945
Then we'd say if they won't get on
a video chat, then they're not real.
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00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:32,565
Then they figured out ways to do that.
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00:18:32,565 --> 00:18:36,645
They hired models and now we know they're
using deep fakes, and now we know that
300
00:18:36,645 --> 00:18:38,655
they're doing a lot of the chats with ai.
301
00:18:38,655 --> 00:18:42,345
So we know that every time we think we.
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00:18:42,915 --> 00:18:46,605
Have given good advice to
victims, they get around it.
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00:18:47,115 --> 00:18:48,495
I'm not sure if I answered the question.
304
00:18:48,915 --> 00:18:50,385
It's a nuanced operation.
305
00:18:50,395 --> 00:18:51,595
It's ever changing.
306
00:18:51,645 --> 00:18:53,625
It's really hard to answer that question.
307
00:18:53,985 --> 00:18:56,205
They attack the person
through these groups.
308
00:18:56,205 --> 00:18:59,675
They try to tug at their emotional
harshing, fine lonely people or whatever.
309
00:18:59,675 --> 00:19:01,295
But I'm a happily married man.
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00:19:01,595 --> 00:19:02,165
I'm a dad.
311
00:19:02,165 --> 00:19:02,915
I'm pretty busy.
312
00:19:03,425 --> 00:19:06,185
How does somebody like me
fall into a trap like this?
313
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:11,420
Well, I'll tell you, I think everybody,
no matter how happily married and
314
00:19:11,420 --> 00:19:15,640
no matter how good they feel about
their circumstances, might welcome an
315
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,440
opportunity to make a little extra cash.
316
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:17,530
Mm-hmm.
317
00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:17,860
Sure.
318
00:19:18,805 --> 00:19:21,955
These people are not preying
on us on our best days.
319
00:19:21,955 --> 00:19:25,705
If you I frequently talk to victims
who would say, God, if it wasn't,
320
00:19:25,705 --> 00:19:28,615
it was such a bad day the day that
person reached out to me and I
321
00:19:28,615 --> 00:19:29,935
just started chatting with them.
322
00:19:30,325 --> 00:19:35,665
I will tell you that many a married man
has fallen for this, and we can talk
323
00:19:35,665 --> 00:19:39,835
about whether what they were trying to
get out of that relationship or not.
324
00:19:40,075 --> 00:19:46,020
I've also talked to married men who
were targeted as a. Hey, I've got this
325
00:19:46,020 --> 00:19:48,000
really impressive investment scheme.
326
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:48,090
Mm-hmm.
327
00:19:48,330 --> 00:19:50,080
And let me tell you how it works.
328
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:51,910
I know it's super easy.
329
00:19:51,910 --> 00:19:55,450
If you're listening to a podcast like
this and you're listening to people
330
00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:58,630
talk about this, it's very easy to
say, I don't think that would ever
331
00:19:58,630 --> 00:20:02,770
happen to me, and probably not as
you're sitting here listening to it.
332
00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:03,350
Mm-hmm.
333
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:07,770
But I guarantee you, you know,
someone that this has happened to
334
00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:12,390
in some way, shape or form, they
have been taken advantage of by
335
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:16,260
someone online because it's that
pervasive it, it's that ubiquitous.
336
00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:21,390
And so what we really have to do is
be careful about how we talk about it,
337
00:20:21,390 --> 00:20:27,990
because how we talk about it enables
people to come forward and normalize it.
338
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:28,290
Mm-hmm.
339
00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:34,080
I try to talk about times, even
in the past year where I have
340
00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:37,620
clicked on something I shouldn't
have because I got tricked.
341
00:20:37,990 --> 00:20:39,790
I talk about what's happened to my dad.
342
00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:42,340
I talk about, my best friend,
what's happened to her dad.
343
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,710
I think that there's no one
who's immune from being tricked.
344
00:20:48,355 --> 00:20:52,195
At the end of the day, the
answer is we need to assume every
345
00:20:52,195 --> 00:20:56,515
electronic communication is a
scam until proven otherwise.
346
00:20:56,635 --> 00:20:56,905
Wow.
347
00:20:56,905 --> 00:21:01,255
If you don't know that person, they're
a scammer until you've learn otherwise.
348
00:21:01,465 --> 00:21:04,555
And even if you do know that person,
sometimes there are sophisticated
349
00:21:04,945 --> 00:21:10,645
ways of basically faking someone
through a profile or it is everywhere.
350
00:21:11,305 --> 00:21:14,845
There are 330 million people in
this country, and I probably get.
351
00:21:15,340 --> 00:21:16,480
Just random Joe.
352
00:21:16,570 --> 00:21:19,150
Me, I probably get 20 attacks a week.
353
00:21:19,570 --> 00:21:21,340
I've had my LinkedIn profile hacked.
354
00:21:21,340 --> 00:21:22,690
I get smishing attacks all.
355
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:24,490
It's like, hey, is this so and so?
356
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:28,430
And you're like what I always tell
people now is just delete 'em.
357
00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:31,220
Don't even engage because
they want you to engage.
358
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,320
They want you to engage.
359
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,080
They're gonna try and trick you in
some way, but you're also proving
360
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,580
that that is an active phone number.
361
00:21:37,585 --> 00:21:37,815
Mm-hmm.
362
00:21:37,995 --> 00:21:41,420
And the last thing you wanna do is get
yourself on yet another list of, at
363
00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:43,010
least this is an active phone number.
364
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:49,970
We know that this phone number works, so
the amount of attacks on us on the daily,
365
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:53,210
on the weekly is gone through the roof.
366
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,200
And so we have to always be on guard right
now in a way that we never had to be.
367
00:21:57,605 --> 00:21:59,795
We've talked about it
could affect everybody.
368
00:22:00,005 --> 00:22:03,575
Is there a typical financial loss for
people, or is it all over the board?
369
00:22:03,815 --> 00:22:04,595
It runs the gamut.
370
00:22:05,345 --> 00:22:05,465
Yeah.
371
00:22:05,465 --> 00:22:07,595
The typical loss is everything you have.
372
00:22:08,105 --> 00:22:08,495
Oh, boy.
373
00:22:08,945 --> 00:22:09,815
So it's hard to say.
374
00:22:09,815 --> 00:22:14,465
I had a call from a victim in Hawaii
this week who lost $3 million.
375
00:22:14,465 --> 00:22:14,495
Oh.
376
00:22:14,825 --> 00:22:21,635
I spoke with a Canadian veteran who lost
25,000, and so each one is excruciating.
377
00:22:22,025 --> 00:22:22,115
Yeah.
378
00:22:22,175 --> 00:22:24,215
Each one is, you know, my Canadian.
379
00:22:24,935 --> 00:22:29,015
Victim was a veteran who just
retired from the armed forces.
380
00:22:29,405 --> 00:22:32,975
He had a severance payment
and lost all of it.
381
00:22:33,095 --> 00:22:34,535
It's only getting worse.
382
00:22:34,955 --> 00:22:40,115
It's only getting more frequent and
it's, I talk about it in, in the words
383
00:22:40,115 --> 00:22:42,485
of a crisis, we are 100% in a crisis.
384
00:22:42,545 --> 00:22:46,145
I could just hear Uncle Lou say,
just give him your information
385
00:22:46,455 --> 00:22:48,925
because you're talking about
giving millions of dollars away.
386
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:53,290
How do they actually get
that information from you?
387
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:58,060
And secondly, what is the responsibility
or what are the financial institutions,
388
00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:01,780
because there's obviously a paper
trail of some sort, I would assume.
389
00:23:02,020 --> 00:23:05,650
But what it, so first part is how are
they getting the information from people?
390
00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:09,401
And second part is what are the
financial institutions doing about it?
391
00:23:09,695 --> 00:23:13,450
Okay, so let me walk you through a
little bit of how this happens, because
392
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:17,080
sometimes people who don't understand
it completely will say things like,
393
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,580
I would never give away my money.
394
00:23:18,935 --> 00:23:20,885
That's not what's happening here.
395
00:23:21,125 --> 00:23:26,675
So you've met someone online that you
believe to be now the love of your life,
396
00:23:26,885 --> 00:23:31,715
and that person has isolated you from
the rest of your family and led you to
397
00:23:31,715 --> 00:23:35,555
believe that they are the only one that
can be trusted, and that if anybody tries
398
00:23:35,555 --> 00:23:39,155
to tell you that this is a bad idea, it's
because they're jealous and they don't
399
00:23:39,155 --> 00:23:42,695
understand the love that you have and
they don't understand cryptocurrency.
400
00:23:43,565 --> 00:23:48,425
And then this trusted person is going
to say, okay, so you can see that
401
00:23:48,425 --> 00:23:50,225
I live a really comfortable life.
402
00:23:50,565 --> 00:23:53,025
I got there from investing
in cryptocurrency.
403
00:23:53,295 --> 00:23:54,405
Let me show you how to do it.
404
00:23:55,005 --> 00:23:58,995
And so they'll get our victims to invest
a small amount of money, whatever small
405
00:23:58,995 --> 00:24:00,735
amount of money is to that victim.
406
00:24:00,735 --> 00:24:01,305
Mm-hmm.
407
00:24:01,311 --> 00:24:06,945
So say it's $5,000, they then take
their, they get the victim to take
408
00:24:06,945 --> 00:24:08,355
their US dollars from the bank.
409
00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:13,230
Put it into a crypto exchange,
which is like a bank for
410
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:15,570
cryptocurrency, like Coinbase.
411
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:15,660
Mm-hmm.
412
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,870
And when they put that
money into Coinbase, it's an
413
00:24:18,870 --> 00:24:20,310
account in their own name.
414
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:21,870
Our victim still controls all of it.
415
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,350
They'll then teach our
victim how to change their US
416
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:27,300
dollars into cryptocurrency.
417
00:24:27,870 --> 00:24:30,745
So now, instead of US
dollars, you have Bitcoin.
418
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,990
And then they say, okay, my uncle
says it's a good window for trading,
419
00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:43,710
so let's take your $5,000 worth of
Bitcoin and put it in this trading
420
00:24:43,710 --> 00:24:48,270
platform that my uncle recommends and
that I use and that all my money is in.
421
00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:49,260
So our victim.
422
00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:52,830
They think they're putting their
money into an investment platform.
423
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:55,290
It's a domain on the internet.
424
00:24:55,290 --> 00:24:58,650
It looks very real because
that's how good they are.
425
00:24:58,650 --> 00:25:02,400
They build things that look very
real, and our victim doesn't have a
426
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,420
lot of experience with cryptocurrency
investment platforms, so they have
427
00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:08,280
no reason to doubt that this is real.
428
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,870
They think they're putting their money
into it and they see a dashboard that
429
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:14,820
shows that their money is going up.
430
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,460
Oh my gosh, now it's worth 6,800.
431
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:19,020
Now it's worth 7,500.
432
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:20,310
Now it's worth 10,000.
433
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:20,970
It's doubled.
434
00:25:21,690 --> 00:25:26,610
But really their money has gone down the
blockchain into the hands of the scammer,
435
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,620
but they think they are investing money
and that they are becoming wealthy.
436
00:25:31,670 --> 00:25:34,010
That's when our scammer will
then say, you know what?
437
00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:38,060
My uncle says there's a great
window this weekend for $200,000.
438
00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:41,540
And our victims will think, oh, I
never considered putting in that much.
439
00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:45,170
And that's when they use another trick
and they say, I'll do it with you.
440
00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:46,460
Let's do it together.
441
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,650
I'll put in a hundred,
you put in a hundred.
442
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,730
So our victims think, no way would this
person put money in a bad investment
443
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:54,960
and we're gonna do it together.
444
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,430
That shows how much they love me.
445
00:25:56,985 --> 00:26:00,315
They put in their 200,000 and now
it's half a million dollars, and they
446
00:26:00,315 --> 00:26:03,165
think, oh my God, this really works.
447
00:26:03,165 --> 00:26:04,305
I'm gonna be wealthy.
448
00:26:04,305 --> 00:26:07,935
And then they start liquidating
everything at the request of the scammer.
449
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,320
I am John Dole's son.
450
00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:09,800
Mm-hmm.
451
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,875
So I'm gonna play, my dad was raised
in foster care and orphanages, so he
452
00:26:13,875 --> 00:26:15,135
didn't trust anybody with anything.
453
00:26:15,345 --> 00:26:15,915
Let's go.
454
00:26:16,125 --> 00:26:19,675
So I'm sitting here listening to
this and I'm thinking to myself.
455
00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:23,545
If it sounds too good to
be true, it probably is.
456
00:26:23,725 --> 00:26:26,785
So again, I'm just playing out that
person, my Uncle Lou, whatever.
457
00:26:27,265 --> 00:26:27,505
Yep.
458
00:26:27,595 --> 00:26:28,825
How is that manipulator?
459
00:26:28,825 --> 00:26:29,605
That scammer?
460
00:26:29,635 --> 00:26:31,345
Are they talking to me digitally?
461
00:26:31,345 --> 00:26:32,485
Are they calling me?
462
00:26:32,845 --> 00:26:34,915
Are they, I know you say
they have now models to do.
463
00:26:35,185 --> 00:26:37,045
How are they doing that to me?
464
00:26:37,045 --> 00:26:37,885
How are they working?
465
00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:38,575
My emotions.
466
00:26:39,460 --> 00:26:40,510
It's mostly text.
467
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:42,940
It's mostly using tricks.
468
00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:45,910
Like are you saying you
don't trust what I'm saying?
469
00:26:45,910 --> 00:26:47,320
I thought we were in this together.
470
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,090
I thought this was a serious relationship.
471
00:26:49,090 --> 00:26:50,350
Maybe I need to look elsewhere.
472
00:26:50,350 --> 00:26:52,510
Maybe you're not as serious
about me as I thought you were.
473
00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:55,680
And then that gets Hmmmm they
use all kinds of psychological
474
00:26:55,685 --> 00:26:59,400
techniques that as we sit here, we
think, I wouldn't fall for that.
475
00:27:00,030 --> 00:27:02,400
But when we are.
476
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:07,410
Alone in our house, and we've isolated
because we really can't trust anybody
477
00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:10,800
with this story because maybe even a
little bit in the back of our head,
478
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,930
we think maybe this isn't right.
479
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:15,780
So I actually don't wanna
tell anybody about this.
480
00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:19,820
And the only person I'm trusting is this
person on the other end of the text.
481
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,930
And they're so pretty and they have
such a nice life and they seem to really
482
00:27:23,930 --> 00:27:27,350
be into me and they know everything
about me and they really accept me
483
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:29,710
as I am and this is gonna work out.
484
00:27:29,860 --> 00:27:34,180
That's where we get, and it's not on
day one or day four that this happens.
485
00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:41,140
It's on day 73 where this person
has been in this with you nonstop.
486
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:42,460
It's hard to.
487
00:27:43,315 --> 00:27:46,195
Explain the endorphin rush.
488
00:27:46,255 --> 00:27:51,595
It's hard to explain the endorphin
rush of being in love with the
489
00:27:52,435 --> 00:27:56,155
anticipated endorphin rush of,
and I'm also gonna be wealthy.
490
00:27:56,455 --> 00:27:57,055
Oh my goodness.
491
00:27:57,175 --> 00:27:59,905
So, yeah, John Dobel
may not fall for this.
492
00:28:00,115 --> 00:28:03,055
He may be the guy that's
never gonna do this.
493
00:28:03,505 --> 00:28:06,415
But I'll tell you what, I've got
an email box full of people who
494
00:28:06,415 --> 00:28:08,020
would, oh, I think John Dobel would.
495
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:09,400
Oh, you think you would?
496
00:28:09,645 --> 00:28:14,565
They probably have figured out how to
tap into our, this can't be, I'm too
497
00:28:14,565 --> 00:28:18,675
smart for this, or it's not gonna happen
to me because I figured it all out.
498
00:28:18,790 --> 00:28:20,625
Uhhuh, you know, because it's just enough.
499
00:28:20,625 --> 00:28:24,465
I got a LinkedIn contact, somebody
said to me, and it was just weird.
500
00:28:24,465 --> 00:28:26,115
And I use LinkedIn for business.
501
00:28:26,115 --> 00:28:28,065
I don't use it for
anything else, so I, right.
502
00:28:28,065 --> 00:28:29,685
But it was a weird thing and it was like.
503
00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:31,160
Do I know you have.
504
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,160
We met at a conference or something
and I was like, okay, this is fishy.
505
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:34,580
Right?
506
00:28:34,580 --> 00:28:38,030
But then they came back and said, have
you seen a lot of Asian women online?
507
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:40,880
And I immediately was like, oh, okay.
508
00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:43,700
If I was susceptible, if I
was like, well, that could be.
509
00:28:44,415 --> 00:28:45,555
Maybe a little strange.
510
00:28:45,555 --> 00:28:46,005
Woo.
511
00:28:46,005 --> 00:28:46,425
Okay.
512
00:28:46,905 --> 00:28:51,465
I could see that I reported this
thing and I also, because I spent
513
00:28:51,465 --> 00:28:55,235
so much time dealing with this right
now, I could tell that it was ai.
514
00:28:55,475 --> 00:28:59,495
Yes, it was an AI picture and I
was like, this is an AI picture
515
00:28:59,495 --> 00:29:00,725
and there are some tricks.
516
00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:03,260
I can only speak to LinkedIn
and plays like that, but look
517
00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:04,430
and see, have they posted?
518
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:05,540
And they'll get better at that.
519
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:07,190
They'll start doing
all this crazy posting.
520
00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:07,935
Yes, they're good.
521
00:29:08,155 --> 00:29:11,300
So yes, I do think that my dad could
have been taken in just like I think
522
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:13,250
I could be taken in just like anybody.
523
00:29:13,250 --> 00:29:17,300
So before we get to like, how do we
stop it, let's talk about what is,
524
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,000
I want to talk about the financial
institution's responsibility.
525
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,870
What do they, and then what law
enforcement, I've lost everything.
526
00:29:23,995 --> 00:29:24,415
Mm-hmm.
527
00:29:24,555 --> 00:29:25,575
I'm a widow.
528
00:29:26,075 --> 00:29:26,495
Mm-hmm.
529
00:29:26,780 --> 00:29:30,605
I've had my husband's pension or my
wife's pension and now I've lost it.
530
00:29:30,965 --> 00:29:34,565
I go back to Bank of America or
whomever I bank with, what's their
531
00:29:34,565 --> 00:29:35,915
responsibility at this point?
532
00:29:38,135 --> 00:29:38,705
None.
533
00:29:39,455 --> 00:29:42,504
And it's interesting 'cause we wanna
look at, right now we're looking at
534
00:29:42,504 --> 00:29:46,555
banking and law enforcement and yes,
those two should be held accountable.
535
00:29:47,754 --> 00:29:53,845
That is the work that I do, is
to try and raise the standard.
536
00:29:54,235 --> 00:29:58,375
Of the service that you are going to
get from law enforcement and the service
537
00:29:58,375 --> 00:30:02,245
that you're going to get from banking,
that is the job that I've given myself.
538
00:30:04,554 --> 00:30:10,945
I think that there are plenty of banks
who will let you walk right out the
539
00:30:10,945 --> 00:30:16,225
door or will let you easily wire this
from your account where you don't
540
00:30:16,225 --> 00:30:18,534
even have to talk to anybody to do it.
541
00:30:19,285 --> 00:30:22,705
Then there are others where I'm just,
I was just texting with a friend
542
00:30:22,705 --> 00:30:27,415
in Boise where they will literally
almost stand in front of the door
543
00:30:27,415 --> 00:30:30,925
and tell you that this is a scam
and that you really shouldn't do it.
544
00:30:31,315 --> 00:30:34,440
The banks are often caught in
between a rock and a hard place.
545
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:34,680
Mm-hmm.
546
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,825
When they have a victim coming
in, who's demanding this, who's
547
00:30:37,825 --> 00:30:42,145
been well coached, about what to
say and who wants their money.
548
00:30:42,835 --> 00:30:48,655
Yes, banks, but banks should be having
better controls about how, where this
549
00:30:48,655 --> 00:30:50,125
money is going and how it's going.
550
00:30:50,395 --> 00:30:54,265
They need, we need better standards
and better education at the front
551
00:30:54,265 --> 00:30:56,935
lines, and we need better education.
552
00:30:56,935 --> 00:30:59,875
This is something we're working
on talking to victims about.
553
00:31:00,115 --> 00:31:02,425
What could have turned
you around at that point?
554
00:31:02,425 --> 00:31:05,125
Like what could someone have
said to you at that point that
555
00:31:05,125 --> 00:31:06,325
might have made you turn around?
556
00:31:06,940 --> 00:31:11,350
It's mind boggling because I do think
it's so, the tentacles are so wide.
557
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,750
You can't really blame the bank.
558
00:31:12,930 --> 00:31:15,120
They've got a customer and the
customer wants to do something.
559
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,720
Are they responsible for making
sure they don't do something dumb?
560
00:31:19,890 --> 00:31:20,250
Okay.
561
00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:24,390
Let's talk really quickly
about law enforcement.
562
00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:28,110
I have a lot of respect
for law enforcement.
563
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:30,750
I have a lot of respect for district
attorneys and people that it's hard.
564
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:33,750
There's a lot stuff out
there and a lot of rules and.
565
00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:39,180
Let's talk about where law enforcement
is and where law enforcement should go.
566
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,130
Yeah, I'd love to, and as someone
who spent my working career in
567
00:31:44,130 --> 00:31:50,580
law enforcement, it's important to
me that victims get good service
568
00:31:50,580 --> 00:31:51,870
when they come to law enforcement.
569
00:31:52,830 --> 00:31:58,980
These victims are people who have worked
their whole lives and followed rules and
570
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,560
expect law enforcement to be there when.
571
00:32:02,550 --> 00:32:05,295
Their entire livelihood
has been stolen from them.
572
00:32:05,315 --> 00:32:05,735
Mm-hmm.
573
00:32:05,910 --> 00:32:09,660
Law enforcement would take their report if
their bike was stolen from them, if their
574
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:14,790
car was stolen from them, but somehow
when it becomes their entire net worth,
575
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,860
then there's a whole bias against them
that comes down from law enforcement on
576
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:22,290
in some places, and that's difficult.
577
00:32:22,290 --> 00:32:27,210
So what I will tell you is, yes, victims
are having a very difficult time in
578
00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:29,560
some locations reporting this crime.
579
00:32:30,565 --> 00:32:36,295
That became apparent to me when my
team was able to recover some money for
580
00:32:36,295 --> 00:32:42,175
victims and wanted to educate Dallas
because we found money belonging to
581
00:32:42,175 --> 00:32:46,315
Dallas victims and say, Hey Dallas,
we've got some money for your victims.
582
00:32:46,615 --> 00:32:48,055
Do you wanna engage in this with us?
583
00:32:48,055 --> 00:32:49,300
And they were like, we
don't do cryptocurrency.
584
00:32:50,170 --> 00:32:53,260
Same thing in California, same thing.
585
00:32:53,265 --> 00:32:58,685
And so what we found was a huge gap
in law enforcement's ability to take
586
00:32:58,685 --> 00:33:00,305
these reports and do anything with them.
587
00:33:00,725 --> 00:33:04,565
And so that's why I built the Crypto
coalition because I realized, oh.
588
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:11,630
I live in a bubble because I work with
a task force that is well educated
589
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:14,900
and well funded by the state of
California, and not everybody has that.
590
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,050
Mm-hmm.
591
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:21,020
So I made it my mission to find others
that knew how to do this and then use
592
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:25,130
those people to teach others in the
United States how to do this work.
593
00:33:25,210 --> 00:33:27,490
And so I built this coalition
that's gone from 85.
594
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,280
Members of law enforcement to
today, over 2000 active members
595
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,700
of law enforcement that are doing
cryptocurrency investigations.
596
00:33:36,150 --> 00:33:41,310
So I'm working to build the ground
floor when people come in that
597
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:44,520
their, at least their report is
taken and something is done with it.
598
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,600
It's fascinating to me that someone
could show up at my door with a gun.
599
00:33:49,015 --> 00:33:50,905
Rob, I might have money in a little safe.
600
00:33:51,085 --> 00:33:51,325
Yep.
601
00:33:51,385 --> 00:33:52,195
They take the money.
602
00:33:52,555 --> 00:33:53,875
Law enforcement would be all over that.
603
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,035
I'd have fbi I'd have at, I'd have
everybody in the world on that.
604
00:33:57,035 --> 00:34:01,475
And so is, and again, I don't think that
law enforcement are like, ah, whatever.
605
00:34:01,535 --> 00:34:03,455
This person got screwed
out of their money.
606
00:34:03,455 --> 00:34:05,795
Oh, well I don't think
that They don't care.
607
00:34:06,575 --> 00:34:07,745
So what is it?
608
00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:11,765
Is it just a lack of education
because crypto is so complicated?
609
00:34:12,095 --> 00:34:13,865
Is that what these
criminals are relying on?
610
00:34:13,865 --> 00:34:16,300
That it's just too much
to try to track this down?
611
00:34:17,555 --> 00:34:19,685
I'm glad you're giving me the
opportunity to explain, because
612
00:34:19,685 --> 00:34:20,855
I think this is important.
613
00:34:20,915 --> 00:34:25,885
When you think of the financial crimes
detective at any agency, I. They probably
614
00:34:25,885 --> 00:34:30,205
got voluntold to be there for a lot
of people who become police officers.
615
00:34:30,535 --> 00:34:33,955
They wanna be out on the streets
and they want to be fighting crime
616
00:34:34,345 --> 00:34:38,005
every day on the streets, and so
there's probably, they probably got
617
00:34:38,005 --> 00:34:39,805
voluntold to be in financial crimes.
618
00:34:39,805 --> 00:34:43,975
Not everybody loves this as interesting
and sexy as the rest of us find it.
619
00:34:43,975 --> 00:34:44,665
Not everybody does.
620
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:49,350
And so not only are they having to do
financial crime investigations, they
621
00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:55,080
are having, they are being asked to
learn an entire new technology that even
622
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,190
the rest of the world hasn't embraced
cryptocurrency, but now they've gotta
623
00:34:59,190 --> 00:35:00,990
be in a cryptocurrency investigator.
624
00:35:00,990 --> 00:35:04,560
That's a tall order for someone
who did not come in asking to
625
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,690
be some sort of technologist.
626
00:35:06,990 --> 00:35:12,600
So the real story is that
they just don't have the time.
627
00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:18,940
They don't have the tools, they
don't have the training to be able
628
00:35:18,940 --> 00:35:22,840
to do this work, and so that's a huge
part of what I'm doing at Operation
629
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,480
Shamrock is how can I get you educated?
630
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,010
How can I get tools in your hands?
631
00:35:27,010 --> 00:35:30,370
How can I give you a community
of people that do this work also
632
00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:33,550
so that you can do better so that
you're not reinventing the wheel?
633
00:35:34,780 --> 00:35:35,110
Oh, okay.
634
00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:36,520
That leads me to a whole.
635
00:35:38,125 --> 00:35:41,845
Like, why in the world is a nonprofit
and I'm grateful that you are, but
636
00:35:41,845 --> 00:35:45,085
that it's coming from a nonprofit
as opposed to, I don't know.
637
00:35:45,085 --> 00:35:45,715
Thank you.
638
00:35:46,165 --> 00:35:47,155
Thank you for saying that.
639
00:35:47,185 --> 00:35:48,535
Yes, it's a problem.
640
00:35:48,655 --> 00:35:50,305
Yes, it is a problem, right?
641
00:35:50,485 --> 00:35:52,135
I'm doing a government job.
642
00:35:52,135 --> 00:35:52,225
Yes.
643
00:35:52,225 --> 00:35:54,715
That the government should,
there should be a government
644
00:35:54,715 --> 00:35:56,365
position for what I'm doing.
645
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,660
There isn't.
646
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:04,350
And so I am self-funding at the
moment, my desire to make sure that
647
00:36:04,350 --> 00:36:09,420
victims have a place to land when
they come in to complain about this
648
00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:11,550
crime that is terrorizing our nation.
649
00:36:11,855 --> 00:36:15,690
Well, I hopefully you won't be
self-funding for long because
650
00:36:15,690 --> 00:36:19,110
I do think that there is going
to be, there is such a need.
651
00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:23,110
Out there for this, that I can't
even imagine that in a very short
652
00:36:23,110 --> 00:36:26,650
period of time as the wheel gets
spinning, that there will be
653
00:36:27,460 --> 00:36:29,590
something fun somewhere for this.
654
00:36:29,590 --> 00:36:32,440
But let, before we get to
that, we've talked about the
655
00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:34,900
financial impact on people.
656
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,320
A couple of things before we get to
prevention and awareness to think
657
00:36:38,415 --> 00:36:40,120
what happens when they get caught.
658
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:43,000
Is anybody being convicted of crime?
659
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,550
Now you said of China, if
somebody, if a Chinese citizen
660
00:36:45,550 --> 00:36:48,070
gets, something happens, maybe the
Chinese government gets involved.
661
00:36:48,655 --> 00:36:51,895
We're talking about thousands of
American citizens getting robbed.
662
00:36:52,675 --> 00:36:52,765
Mm-hmm.
663
00:36:53,005 --> 00:36:54,685
Is anybody getting arrested for this?
664
00:36:54,685 --> 00:36:56,425
Is anything happening criminally?
665
00:36:57,505 --> 00:37:01,465
No, and that's a huge piece
of it that I continue to push.
666
00:37:01,945 --> 00:37:03,835
That it is not a mystery.
667
00:37:03,835 --> 00:37:04,975
It is not a who'd done it.
668
00:37:05,065 --> 00:37:09,115
We know who is running these compounds.
669
00:37:09,175 --> 00:37:11,755
They are known criminals
that have been prosecuted.
670
00:37:12,145 --> 00:37:15,055
They are known criminals that have
been sanctioned, and they own the
671
00:37:15,055 --> 00:37:17,155
property where this bad activity is.
672
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:18,310
Is happening.
673
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,580
So yes, I think there is an opportunity
that should be exploited to indict
674
00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:31,510
these people and arrest them when
they come into a country where we have
675
00:37:31,510 --> 00:37:33,340
cooperative allies ready to arrest them.
676
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:34,810
We know these people travel.
677
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,270
They don't stay in Cambodia and Myanmar.
678
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:37,390
Mm-hmm.
679
00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:39,400
They own homes in Australia.
680
00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:41,230
They travel to the United States.
681
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:43,630
They travel and there's
opportunity to pick them up.
682
00:37:43,630 --> 00:37:45,820
So I think we are remiss.
683
00:37:46,215 --> 00:37:50,865
In not pursuing that type
of enforcement against them?
684
00:37:51,375 --> 00:37:54,885
Well, yeah, because obviously
if we can evade Panama to get
685
00:37:54,885 --> 00:37:58,605
General Noriega who was involved
in basically money laundering,
686
00:37:58,875 --> 00:38:00,135
then we can do a lot of things.
687
00:38:00,195 --> 00:38:05,055
Let me ask you then, is it knowledge
or is it just will, why aren't these
688
00:38:05,055 --> 00:38:07,545
people being, what's stopping that?
689
00:38:09,465 --> 00:38:13,215
Well, I mean, I've definitely,
I. Let me say it this way.
690
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:23,830
I have been told on repeat that there
is no appetite for pursuing these cases.
691
00:38:24,850 --> 00:38:30,250
It is my hope that with a new
administration, that when that new
692
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:38,440
administration becomes aware that
a foreign bad actor is taking.
693
00:38:39,220 --> 00:38:46,450
A generation's worth of wealth out
of the United States to then perhaps
694
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:52,900
return to the United States and use it
to buy out real estate from under us.
695
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:57,125
It is my hope that this
administration will take heed.
696
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,250
And we'll take decisive action and put the
resources into fighting and fighting for
697
00:39:03,250 --> 00:39:08,650
our citizenry that is really being taken
advantage of by adverse foreign interests.
698
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:13,060
It does sound like information is
key in this whole, all the way around
699
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:17,050
from top to bottom, that to inform
people to get the word out on that.
700
00:39:17,050 --> 00:39:19,270
So let's in our last few minutes together.
701
00:39:20,125 --> 00:39:22,195
I would say, let's talk about
future trends, but it sounds
702
00:39:22,195 --> 00:39:26,275
like it's just an ever evolving,
and crypto is so complicated and
703
00:39:26,275 --> 00:39:27,745
blockchain is so complicated.
704
00:39:27,895 --> 00:39:32,185
So let's talk about what
the average person can do.
705
00:39:32,575 --> 00:39:33,745
We've said it's not obvious.
706
00:39:34,015 --> 00:39:37,765
What can the average person do to protect
themselves against these sort of scams?
707
00:39:38,515 --> 00:39:44,125
First thing, if there are platforms
that you do not use and say
708
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:46,075
WhatsApp, take that off your phone.
709
00:39:46,465 --> 00:39:49,435
You're going to get added to
WhatsApp groups and they're gonna
710
00:39:49,435 --> 00:39:53,425
start talking about investments,
and that's a dangerous place to be.
711
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:53,630
Mm-hmm.
712
00:39:53,770 --> 00:39:57,475
You don't wanna be anywhere where
you could be tricked into something
713
00:39:57,825 --> 00:39:59,145
because they're good tricksters.
714
00:39:59,925 --> 00:40:07,335
Number two, you have to be
wildly aware at all times that.
715
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:12,360
Scammers are trying to trick you and
the way they're going to trick you,
716
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:17,370
whether it's any one of the scam type
of scams you're looking at, is they
717
00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:22,170
are going to either build trust or if
it's a different type of scam, they're
718
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:26,790
going to raise your blood pressure
quickly, make you need to react quickly
719
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:31,035
to something and not give you time to
reflect before you need to take action.
720
00:40:31,635 --> 00:40:35,475
So my advice for anyone is really
to treat your phone and your
721
00:40:35,475 --> 00:40:40,635
computer as to use caution with all
of that, that when an electronic
722
00:40:40,635 --> 00:40:43,695
communication comes in, be judgemental.
723
00:40:43,995 --> 00:40:48,585
Be worried that somebody is trying
to take your money because they are,
724
00:40:48,645 --> 00:40:52,485
they, yes, somebody will try and take
your money three times this week.
725
00:40:52,755 --> 00:40:56,355
And so be looking for those
people because they are 100%
726
00:40:56,355 --> 00:40:57,435
out there and coming your way.
727
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,680
The last thing I would say is that
we need to talk amongst each other.
728
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,770
That, my dad called me and he
got hit with a scam on Facebook.
729
00:41:06,625 --> 00:41:10,495
My dad loves a bargain and he loves
Hoka sneakers, and he could get
730
00:41:10,495 --> 00:41:12,325
his hocus sneakers for 50% off.
731
00:41:12,535 --> 00:41:16,195
Mm. So he gave him his credit
card and his address, and so
732
00:41:16,255 --> 00:41:17,395
we need to talk about that.
733
00:41:17,395 --> 00:41:20,755
We need to normalize , oh guys, you
won't believe what happened to me.
734
00:41:20,805 --> 00:41:24,055
We need to normalize this so that we
talk about it so that we are educating
735
00:41:24,055 --> 00:41:28,335
our friends to not be victimized in
the same way that we got victimized.
736
00:41:28,515 --> 00:41:31,575
Last thing, and I know you probably
can't answer this, but I do think it's
737
00:41:31,575 --> 00:41:33,825
important, you just named WhatsApp.
738
00:41:33,825 --> 00:41:36,075
There's Telegram, there's
Facebook, there's there.
739
00:41:36,435 --> 00:41:40,905
I was an early adopter of social media and
I am the absolute man on the island now
740
00:41:40,905 --> 00:41:44,985
because I can't stand any of it because
I find it's even LinkedIn, which is a.
741
00:41:45,350 --> 00:41:50,330
A tool that people for business use all
the time is being, it's become accessible.
742
00:41:50,330 --> 00:41:51,290
It's constant.
743
00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:53,090
You have to be aware all the time.
744
00:41:53,090 --> 00:41:55,970
So I, number one, I completely
agree with you on getting
745
00:41:55,970 --> 00:41:56,870
rid of things you don't use.
746
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,120
I'm constantly telling
my wife, get rid of that.
747
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:59,570
Get rid of that.
748
00:41:59,570 --> 00:42:00,140
Get rid of that.
749
00:42:00,470 --> 00:42:03,320
Use security methods that are
tried and true, all that stuff.
750
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,040
What is the responsibility of
these social media companies,
751
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,420
especially ones that are based in.
752
00:42:10,155 --> 00:42:12,165
And you may not be able to
answer that, but I do think
753
00:42:12,165 --> 00:42:13,125
that's a part of the puzzle.
754
00:42:13,335 --> 00:42:15,975
Oh, I can get to this 100%.
755
00:42:16,755 --> 00:42:22,425
If these social media companies wanted
to stop this, they could make this stop.
756
00:42:23,265 --> 00:42:27,795
They are looking the other way
when there are massive efforts that
757
00:42:27,825 --> 00:42:30,045
could be made to make this stop.
758
00:42:30,975 --> 00:42:33,765
When we think about what's law
enforcement doing, what's banking doing?
759
00:42:33,765 --> 00:42:34,155
You know what?
760
00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:38,555
Actually both of those industries are
trying pretty hard to game up on this.
761
00:42:39,575 --> 00:42:43,745
Less so from our telcos and
our social media companies.
762
00:42:44,345 --> 00:42:44,405
Why?
763
00:42:44,975 --> 00:42:45,455
Business.
764
00:42:45,565 --> 00:42:46,504
Not being regulated.
765
00:42:46,504 --> 00:42:51,095
There's very much a business reason
in keeping all of these eyes on their
766
00:42:51,095 --> 00:42:57,305
platform, and until they are made
to do otherwise, they don't have a
767
00:42:57,305 --> 00:42:59,254
business interest in taking it down.
768
00:42:59,810 --> 00:43:03,080
But I'd argue that we've got a
moral imperative at this point,
769
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,880
that this is bigger than business.
770
00:43:05,060 --> 00:43:09,080
This is the decline of American
society if we allow it to happen
771
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,330
and we're watching it happen.
772
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,810
It's funny, you see all this different
stuff, the Zuckerbergs and the Bezos
773
00:43:14,810 --> 00:43:17,569
and all this, all the different folks
that are out there and they, this,
774
00:43:17,569 --> 00:43:19,310
that championing of free speech.
775
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:24,319
But there is a moral part of
this is that if I'm gathering
776
00:43:24,319 --> 00:43:25,350
what you're saying and I'm.
777
00:43:25,590 --> 00:43:26,070
frightened.
778
00:43:26,660 --> 00:43:28,990
And I'm so grateful that you're
out there doing this but.
779
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,200
I don't know if there's ever been a
bigger crime in the history of mankind.
780
00:43:34,189 --> 00:43:36,799
The potential is massive.
781
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:39,380
People are probably not gonna
go rob you in your house.
782
00:43:39,380 --> 00:43:41,630
Statistically speaking, it
doesn't happen very often.
783
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,460
But if you look at the statistics of this,
it sounds like it's happening every day.
784
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,590
There is a moral imperative.
785
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:54,320
I don't know what the answer to that
is, Erin, but I am so, so grateful
786
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,210
that you are out there fighting the.
787
00:43:58,115 --> 00:43:59,795
Do the best I can on my end.
788
00:43:59,795 --> 00:44:02,945
I encourage all the listeners
out there to talk to their
789
00:44:02,945 --> 00:44:04,805
Uncle Lou or talk to each other.
790
00:44:05,015 --> 00:44:05,945
Don't be afraid to.
791
00:44:05,945 --> 00:44:09,635
I'm grateful for Troy coming on the
show and talk about his own experience.
792
00:44:09,995 --> 00:44:12,065
Any last thoughts you have about this?
793
00:44:12,065 --> 00:44:14,135
Anything that we could do
to sport Operation Shamrock?
794
00:44:14,135 --> 00:44:17,765
We could go to your Patreon account, I
guess, if there was one, but what can
795
00:44:17,765 --> 00:44:20,405
we do as citizens who are concerned?
796
00:44:21,935 --> 00:44:22,805
We can be kind.
797
00:44:23,135 --> 00:44:27,125
I think that that is a piece of this
that is often overlooked is, I'll
798
00:44:27,125 --> 00:44:31,924
tell you what, I do a lot of press
and I, and and frequently when the
799
00:44:31,924 --> 00:44:35,344
camera goes off, that's when someone
will say, yeah, but they're stupid.
800
00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:35,704
Right?
801
00:44:35,884 --> 00:44:36,904
Who's falling for this?
802
00:44:37,324 --> 00:44:38,434
And I think that.
803
00:44:39,619 --> 00:44:44,119
If that's the reaction that I'm getting
after I've spoken for 45 minutes about
804
00:44:44,149 --> 00:44:49,789
how awful this is, then it shows me
that there is a whole segment of society
805
00:44:50,089 --> 00:44:55,729
that thinks these people are dumb
and doesn't care about fixing this.
806
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:57,679
So, couple of points to that.
807
00:44:57,679 --> 00:44:59,659
Number one, these are not dumb people.
808
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,599
I guarantee the people
I talk to have PhDs.
809
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:04,939
They're doctors, they're
lawyers, they're business people.
810
00:45:05,479 --> 00:45:06,499
But number two.
811
00:45:07,714 --> 00:45:10,024
It's bigger than those people.
812
00:45:10,324 --> 00:45:15,604
It's our way of life that's being
targeted and that we are going to
813
00:45:15,604 --> 00:45:21,004
suffer the effects of losing this wealth
in the United States for a long time
814
00:45:21,004 --> 00:45:24,874
to come, not just financially, but
also the loss of trust that we just
815
00:45:24,874 --> 00:45:26,764
can't trust anything we see anymore.
816
00:45:26,769 --> 00:45:26,859
Mm-hmm.
817
00:45:27,019 --> 00:45:27,779
And there are major.
818
00:45:28,999 --> 00:45:30,199
Negative effects of that.
819
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:30,919
So be kind.
820
00:45:31,219 --> 00:45:35,239
You don't know who has suffered what and
you don't know because people don't wanna
821
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,869
talk about it because they're afraid
you're going to not be very nice to them.
822
00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:39,409
Yeah.
823
00:45:39,409 --> 00:45:42,819
And that probably goes to a lot of our
discourse in the society in general.
824
00:45:42,819 --> 00:45:44,739
Well, thank you so much
for coming on today.
825
00:45:45,279 --> 00:45:48,789
I can't even tell you how mind boggled
I am right now, so I'm hoping that
826
00:45:48,789 --> 00:45:50,589
other people get on board with this.
827
00:45:50,589 --> 00:45:52,119
But thank you Aaron West.
828
00:45:52,389 --> 00:45:56,759
If you if anybody wants to know about
Aaron, go to operations shamrock org.
829
00:45:57,614 --> 00:45:58,154
You can read it.
830
00:45:58,154 --> 00:45:58,964
It's a great website.
831
00:45:58,964 --> 00:45:59,774
It's quite beautiful.
832
00:46:00,224 --> 00:46:00,404
Thank you.
833
00:46:00,404 --> 00:46:01,898
I don't know who built
it, but it's quite lovely.
834
00:46:01,958 --> 00:46:02,228
Thank you.
835
00:46:02,258 --> 00:46:05,138
I will post all the stuff in
the show notes information.
836
00:46:05,138 --> 00:46:07,718
If you've been scammed, I'm sure
you could probably reach out to
837
00:46:07,718 --> 00:46:10,958
Aaron or her people and we all
have to be part of the solutions.
838
00:46:10,958 --> 00:46:11,588
Thank you, Aaron.
839
00:46:12,488 --> 00:46:13,268
Thank you so much.
