At the Tipping Point: Wild Salmon, Dam Removal & River Restoration at Scale

Mark Candler: Welcome to Smart to Fish Wild, a podcast where a passion for the outdoors meets the strategy of building a meaningful, well-designed life. I'm Mark Candler, Colorado native outdoorsman, passionate fly fisherman, proud father, and senior partner of Silver Oak Wealth Planning. Each week, I have the real pleasure of sitting down with some amazing people who are turning their passion into purpose and designing lives that leave room for what matters the most. So welcome. Thanks for joining us on Smart to Fish Wild. Today I'm particularly excited to be hosting Bill Bullock. And Bill, thank you so much for ⁓ for joining us today. Happy to be here. Yeah, and and Bill, I just ⁓ from previous conversations, ⁓ I'm definitely incredibly impressed by your background and how you ended up as vice president of business development for the Atlantic Salmon Federation. Could you walk us through that? You bet. ⁓ and as I said, Mark, great to be here. I really appreciate you finding me and ⁓ giving me the opportunity to tell our story. ⁓ I'm ⁓ a classic example of you know life's mission of finding what you don't want to do and changing. ⁓ I'm a recovering banker. ⁓ grew up on the ⁓ literally on the banks of the Penobscot River ⁓ in Maine, ⁓ the largest watershed in Maine and the last remaining stronghold of ⁓ Atlantic salmon in the US. But I grew up in a fly fishing family, only son, ⁓ three older sisters, and my dad loved to fly fish. So I was the luckiest guy in the world. I got to go traipse around the woods of Maine and Canada with him. So very early, I ⁓ was like imprinted like a a young salmon ⁓ on all sorts of wild bird trap fishing and then got the opportunity, the first time I ever salmon fished, ⁓ was on the North Shore of Quebec ⁓ with my dad and my grandfather chasing Glack salmon and You know, as the adage goes, yo, hooked for life. ⁓ so went to Colby College in Maine, loved it, thought I was gonna be a fisheries biologist, a fish squeezers are called, and ⁓ organic chemistry got in the way of that. And ⁓ I just remember my ⁓ Dr. McIntyre remember, you know, being very, you know, calm and you know, saying, Listen, you know, or organic chemistry isn't for whatever I you're a great history American studies guy, why don't you focus on her? So I did and ⁓ Went into banking and I'm a recovering banker, proudly for it. ⁓ worked for Fleet Bank ⁓ and got a background in commercial lending. So I was able to, you know, understand ⁓ ball sheets and understanding cash flow and loved it. Went on to Chicago, first time a hick from Maine lived in a big city, ⁓ with my wife, worked for Merrill Lynch. And it was that I realized, man, I I this is not what I want to do. So Long story short, I ⁓ threw myself ⁓ started working part-time on weekends at the Orbis store in Chicago and I was at Merrill Lynch. ⁓ helped out their fishing schools up in Wisconsin and just started pestering ⁓ the owners of Orbis when they'd come out to see the store to see if they'd hire me. And they did. So ⁓ moved back east to Vermont with my wife. We had our first kid and worked at Orbis for eleven years, ⁓ in product development, then ⁓ helping them expand their retail ⁓ you know division. And then as life does. I was then able to I was asked by the ⁓ the at that time the chair of Warvis, Lee Perkins, amazing guy, ⁓ if I'd consider taking over ⁓ the director position at the Museum of Fly Fishing, which is based here in Manchester. ⁓ and of course I jumped at that. And so for two years I was ⁓ overseeing and fundraising for the museum and and you know helping to ⁓ protect and and raise money to continue to ⁓ you know ⁓ curate and collect an amazing, ⁓ truly amazing collection of of ⁓ artifacts and history of the sport. ⁓ and then I had the opportunity to then go ⁓ when our youngest was finally in school, my wife and I had a pact that when he ⁓ she was no longer at home with the three kids that we follow her. So she was a teacher. So we went to Berkshire school where I started teaching, watching the kids and then ⁓ found my way into ⁓ In addition to coaching and ⁓ teaching history and economics, somebody was asked to run the development down there. And so I did that. ⁓ and in that time period, ⁓ was always a fanatic angler, ran the fly fishing club there. But I also ⁓ joined the board ⁓ at ASF ⁓ with a connection with ⁓ one of the board members. ⁓ kids went there and they needed help on the development side, and it was a wonderful opportunity for me to get to know the organization better. I'd been a lifelong member. And then lo and behold, in twenty twenty three, ⁓ their board chair ASF asked if I consider joining in a fundraising role for ASF. And I, excuse the pun, jumped at the opportunity in a second. And here I am. So I've been at ASF for a little over two years. ⁓ you know, sipping from the fire hydrant as we start our ⁓ you know, with all the things we need to do to save the psychotic species, but loving every minute of it. And I knew ⁓ that our we had an outstanding staff when I was on the board and to be Arm on with ⁓ a group of almost fifty individuals, research, fundraising, administration, you name it. ⁓ we are a ⁓ compelling and fired up group of individuals who ⁓ are ready to take on the challenge of saving this iconic species. Thanks for walking us through that. ⁓ Yeah. Very, very interesting. So ⁓ ASF Atlantic Salmon Federation. ⁓ would you mind walking us through kind of the six pillars? Troy ASF. Yeah. You know, it in ASF, amazing to think about this. You know, a lot of people when you ⁓ you think, ⁓ that's a very specific mission that you have, saving wild Atlantic salmon. We've been doing this for seventy-eight years, ⁓ which is amazing. Founded ⁓ you know ago by ⁓ Percy Knobs, an out architect in Montreal, but you know, who recognized then that this iconic species, you know, that was exploited commercially, you know, harvested, it needed help. And so this conservation group was bored. And I think the the thing I'm most proud about, I think the the biggest, the keyest word in our our our name is our federation. You know, our job as a federation is to bring ⁓ the opinion leaders, the decision makers, and the boots on the ground in all these great areas where wild Atlantic salmon swim, and make sure that we connect the dots. And our goal is to provide them with resources, research. We're science based and science, we follow science to the T and we want to make sure that we have all the information we we need ⁓ to save this species. And so ⁓ lo and behold it's it's 2026. ⁓ one of the things we realized back in twenty twenty three and right when I was joining was the organization really we'd never done a comprehensive ⁓ you know campaign to really act today. You know, our our LAR speech or our our spur to action is that if not now, when are we gonna act to save this fish? You know, we know their challenges with global, you know, with ⁓ climate change and with ⁓ you know, dams and hundreds of years of development of these rivers. So we knew we had to act now. And to do that, we knew we had it to ⁓ you know, get our s our strategic ⁓ you know, mission in line. And so we came up with our First ever comprehensive case ⁓ for support focused on six pillars. First and foremost ⁓ is just recognizing that this iconic species, Headwaters, is one of the most important things. We started it in Maine and doing so, removing dams and barriers to upstream migration and expanding the habitat of these fish that need cold, clean water. ⁓ so Headwaters is focused on ⁓ removing barriers and reconnecting ⁓ the ecosystem. And the Penobscot River is a great example of that. We removed three dams, built the bypass from the other, and you know, ⁓ completely transformed the Penobscot River removed. And ⁓ at that time it was the largest river restoration of its kind. And we've opened up hundreds of miles. And we've got 1,500 to 2,000 wild salmon returning upstream, ⁓ passing the first ⁓ Tide Head Dam that was in Bangor. And more importantly, not only is this protecting and saving salmon. But millions of other anagonous species, alewives, blueback herring, ⁓ you know, ⁓ shad, you name it. So we're open at these rivers. Another thing, ⁓ another pillar of our program ⁓ at ASF is wild salmon watersheds. And really the the the premise of this is we want to make sure that today we identify pristine and wild, ⁓ healthy wild salmon watersheds that are healthy producing wild fish and making sure they stay that way. And Yeah, we've got a goal of creating thirty of ⁓ wild salmon watersheds right now. We have six. We just welcome the York River, our first Quebec River, into this program. And it's a huge focus for us to make sure that we understand what is making this wireshed healthy and making sure it stays that way. ⁓ and making sure we're maximizing where the pinch points might be, if there's not enough spawning habitat, if there are barriers to upstream migration, we're focused on that to make them healthy. ⁓ salmon farming and aquaculture, ⁓ this is probably the most existential threat to wild Atlantic salmon across the globe. ⁓ as we all know, ⁓ Atlantic salmon farming, ⁓ open Nepan aquaculture has exploded. And you know, you can get salmon in a fast food restaurant anywhere in the world. ⁓ but the the externalities of that industry, and it's a huge industry, are real and their existential threat to wild salmon. especially ⁓ the genetic pollution that these open net pens ⁓ in europe, in ⁓ you know in ⁓ Iceland, in the North Atlantic, and in Maine and North America. ⁓ genetic pollution happens from these escapees, and escapees happen all the time. ⁓ there are thousands of fish in these pens. They escape, they have just enough genetic material to to go upstream and and they can ⁓ interbreed with wild populations. And it is ⁓ absolutely devastating what can happen within two generations you know, we've seen ⁓ wild salmon populations wiped out. ⁓ Bay of Fundy rivers ⁓ no longer exist. Salmon, wild salmon have been extirpated from there because of wild salmon. If you look at the UK, you look at Scotland, you look at Norway, the same is happening. So it's a real threat and it's a focus of ours is ⁓ to ⁓ communicate ⁓ the story and to make sure that consumers understand, you know, that you you know you think you're saving the world ⁓ eating farm right salmon but ⁓ the externalities are real. And this goes also with disease ⁓ and pollution that comes from these nets as well. Wow. ⁓ yeah, and that that's a lot to grab onto. ⁓ Greeland is a huge pillar for us. Go ahead. Sorry. So quick question. I mean, is there from the scientific research, is there a surely 100% wild Atlantic salmon in existence or are they all genetically polluted? They there are. Yeah, where 'cause you know, ⁓ the aquaculture industry it wants to go north ⁓ as the oceans warm, ⁓ but ice and you know the ⁓ the the the realities of the North Atlantic going north ⁓ prevent it from going up to where it reaches some of the wild rivers. So, you know, there are you know ⁓ in the southern coast of Newfoundland right now, that is the battleground. They're two ⁓ very large ⁓ aqua open net pen aquaculture organizations that want to keep pushing into that area because it's colder water. And the fish grow better, the sea lice and the p the the problems that limit the growth and cost are less when they're in new colder waters. So but if you go to Labrador, you go to the North Shore of Quebec, these fish are 100% wild. You know, they are not being affected by because those the those ⁓ you know ⁓ farm raised fish just have enough genetic ability to survive at their nearby rivers where they go to. And that's what's happened. So ⁓ but where aquaculture lands, you know, wild salmon disappearance. ⁓ that's tragic. Yeah. And and you you just you need to look no further than Scotland and Ireland and the UK and Norway. ⁓ and it's not only wild or blank salmon, but ⁓ the wild sea trout. And also we're so famous in the locks of Scotland. ⁓ you know, the aquaculture industry has devastated those as well. So it's a big issue and it's ⁓ it's an issue that is, you know, on the one hand you might say it's bigger than ASF, but on the other hand, we can't ignore it. We have to take it on. ⁓ and and we are. And ⁓ if if we have time, we can talk about some of the things we're doing there. ⁓ another pillar is Greenland. And I think this is what makes this iconic species so compelling ⁓ for somebody who cares about conservation, cares about the natural world. ⁓ wildlac salmon from both Europe ⁓ and Asia, if you will, ⁓ because of the Russian population and North America, all of the mature ⁓ salmon that spawn in the spring after spawning and surviving, they will swim out to Greenland. ⁓ the west coast of Greenland. We we found the the the feeding grounds and these wintering ⁓ areas back in the late seventies and that was when we stopped commercial hangling for them because it was a mixed stock fishery and one you know ⁓ you know one net could take all returning fish from a number of rivers because all these salmon from all these different rivers are coming to this one place where the currents and upwelling and all the feed is available. So we're focused on Greenland because we want to make sure it stays ⁓ healthy. and can support these wildfish from going there. And so ⁓ we're very focused. We've ⁓ worked on with the indigenous people of Greenland to make sure that they understand how valuable the species is. They have a very small ⁓ you know, market for subsistence ⁓ fishing and netting and we work with them or we want to make it ⁓ you know, ⁓ productive where we've had agreements where we will actually ⁓ pay them ⁓ to limit their catch. ⁓ they don't sell it commercially, they just keep it for their their own ⁓ you know, ⁓ culture and population. So we want to incentivize them to make sure that they are ⁓ you know, ⁓ following, you know, ⁓ you know, conservation guidelines ⁓ and limiting the amount of salmon because if those salmon are harvested there, they won't return to the rivers ⁓ to spawn and keep the the cycle going. ⁓ And as I said before, you know, another pillar is salmon research itself. We are a scientific driven organization. So ⁓ the the need for information, the need for ⁓ understanding just what happens in the five years ⁓ a salmon from the moment it hatches from its egg to when it is a smalt traveling out to Greenland, ⁓ you know, and what happens along the way from predation, from habitats. So we do a lot of tracking and tagging and tracking and making sure we understand or try to pro pose every question that's out there. you know, what is restricting or what is the the bottleneck or what is ⁓ causing salmon to to not you know proliferate or sustain themselves in some of these rivers. So we're science based and we need to invest in that science. And then finally the Kennebec River in Maine. I mentioned the Popscot before, but the Kennebec, we are currently partnered with the Nature Conservancy ⁓ to undertake the largest river restoration and dam removal project in the history of mankind. ⁓ we are currently have a ⁓ an approved ⁓ purchase and sale contract to remove the four lowest dams in the Kennebec River. This is the second largest watershed in Maine ⁓ and a place where there are wild ⁓ you know, ⁓ reproducing Atlantic salmon, but they have to be trucked around eighty miles around the first dam, trapped at the first dam when they reach a water bill lane, trucked around eighty miles to get to the coldest, cleanest water in the upper Sandy River. And our role with this project. ⁓ is to over the next ten years own these dams, operate them, ⁓ until we have our official plan for how we will ⁓ decommission them and take them out and ideally connect the mid the Gulf of Maine with some of the coldest eight hundred miles plus of the coldest, cleanest water. So not only will salmon benefit, but literally tens of millions of shad and hail wives and river herring and sea eels and sturgeon will be reconnected to their original habitat. So on the one hand this is bigger than salmon. ⁓ and it's ⁓ it's a super exciting project that we're taking on. So ⁓ as you can imagine, ten years and ⁓ probably six hundred billion dollars is probably gonna be the the final price. ⁓ right now we're at ⁓ you know, just to get to purchase the dams, that's ⁓ it's a big nut. But we're we're working on that and ⁓ it's exciting to think about what what what might happen, what will happen on the Penobsca on the Kennebec because it's already happened on the Penobsca. thank you. That that ⁓ that really enhanced my understanding of Atlantic salmon. And I'm sure our audience will really enjoy that. I didn't didn't truly understand the importance of Greenland ⁓ and protecting that population. And ⁓ wow, this is this is great. ⁓ so Bill, you had mentioned in a previous conversation that ⁓ you know a real opportunity for the Atlantic Salmon Federation is to expand your audience, not just the fly fishing audience, but the broader audience who just cares deeply about our environment and conservation. Do you mind sharing that with us? Yeah, I'd I'd love to. ⁓ and I I'd put the premise ⁓ or maybe to premise this ⁓ conversation ⁓ is that you know I think ⁓ Yes, after our seventy eight years, we've done an amazing job ⁓ within the Anglic community to recognize the you know the the value and the majesty of this amazing fish. ⁓ and I I'll get into that. And so we've done a really good job ⁓ within this community. And that that ⁓ that community includes, you know, the the economies of these salmon communities, right? I mean the the guides, the the first nation tribes, you know, the ⁓ you know the lodges, the outfitters. You know, this is a A vibrant part of the history and fabric of Atlantic Canada, ⁓ and Maine, ⁓ you know, ⁓ up until the point where Maine Atlantic salmon are now endangered on the endangered species list. So you cannot target them, you cannot fish for them. Even if but you know, you obviously release them if you catch them as a byproduct. But you know, what's important for us ⁓ i is recognizing just that the this community, you know, salmon have nourished, you know, Atlantic Canada and the Northeast, ⁓ and all salmon communities for millennia, and now we need to nourish those that the fish itself that's nourished us for so many years, just like the rivers on which our communities are built. And so, you know, our our focus now is recognizing that you're to to do what we need to do to ⁓ remedy the, you know, the harms of 200 plus years of of you know deforestation and damming, you know, that has real profound impact, has had profound impact on, you know, Sam, you know, since you know salmon returned to the Penobstadt in nineteen seventy, the Clean Water Act was single handedly one of the greatest you know, turning back the clock, you know, the the Penop Scott, you know, would be recognized back then as an open sewer. You when it was amazing at any same that could get back to the first name. So we've seen such amazing resilience from this fish because of the work we're doing and the the better management of the of of where you know the human footprint has had it left its mark. And so, you know, today, you know, is the opportunity to really, you know, act today, 'cause if not now when, you know, to save this fish. We're gonna have to get better at ⁓ recognizing where they need help. ⁓ you know, how we're gonna keep them resilient from climate change and warming waters. You know, so we're you know, the time is now for us to act and and to do that and to, you know, like all conservation ⁓ that's out there, it takes sacrifice and it takes investment. And ⁓ we're uniquely poised, ⁓ you know, with a lot of ⁓ you know, great ⁓ we have twenty five thousand plus, you know, members and people involved in the Atlantic Salmon ⁓ Federation community. And they're ready to lend a hand. And you know, we're we're work at the state and federal level in the US and certainly in Canada, where majority of North Americans sail and swim. We're working with the local watershed groups and the boots on the ground. We're working with local governments, we're working with provincial governments, and remarkably, or I say remarkably excitedly, we are working with the federal government where ⁓ you know the Mr. Carney and the Canadian federal government have finally recognized ⁓ that the Atlantic salmon ⁓ it the the importance to, you know, Atlantic itself and to the communities that they've come up with a federal plan that we've been urging them to adopt for us. And that's what we're working on. Gosh, the complexity of what your organization deals with is just almost mind boggling. But you've got to ⁓ you've got to wake up in the morning with a full, I would imagine, a full tank of gas. Yeah, it has bushy tail because you do. Yeah. ⁓ It is exciting and I will tell you this that, you know, you only need to see a salmon. And then I'm not telling you you need to hook one to understand, but ⁓ to understand its life cycle and understand just the the incredible journey. And I I sound like the most cliched person in the world, but to imagine that this species, you know, born in the tributary of whatever salmon river that you ⁓ you want to identify, call it the Penobscot, you know, spend five years of its life, you know, in the in the riverine environment. you know, growing from an Elwyn all the way up to a 10 to 12 inch smolt when it will then begin its jerk, you know, to ⁓ leave the river, adjust to the estuary, and then swim all the way either to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the Straits of Belle Isle if it's a grills. And here's a little, you know, salmon biology, but a a one sea winter fish is a fish that leaves the river and feeds out in the ⁓ Gulf of St. Lawrence, near the Straits of Belle Isle, might go into the Labrador sea, but it's it's not going all the way to Green. It comes back the next that that next spring as a grill. So one year fish, anywhere from their micro grills, it could be two pounds all the way up to seven, seven pound fish, depending on how fit they are. But that same small that doesn't that goes all the way to Greenland will spend two sea winners out there and will come back as a, you know, anywhere from a ten to fifteen pound salmon to the exact same spot where it was born. It's imprinted with ⁓ you know, the the nutrients of that water. So it could be, you know, a Laponkeg stream on the upper Penobscot. That's where it goes. ⁓ and there it is. And that's where it strives to get up to. And the moment it enters fresh water, this is something that is incredible. It stops feeding. It has the ⁓ the physical strength and fitness from ⁓ spending two sea winters or one sea winter out. It comes to the river. It doesn't feed from the moment it enters the river all the way through the following winter when the ice breaks. And when ⁓ ice breaks up and the river opens, the smelt and the L wives coming upstream, salmon then devour fish and go downstream to then as Celts and to go back out and to repeat the cycle ⁓ going out to Wheeland. So it's an amazing story. And so that's I think that's from my s my standpoint when I'm telling the story of how we, you know, ⁓ make people understand why this matters, why this fish matters, you know, it is the true picture of resilience, but it's also the true picture of the healthy watershakes, you know, that The salmon with all the things in its way, all the barriers, literally barriers, dams, culverts, bad street, yo, ⁓ road closing, crossings. But you know, they surround, you know, and they come back. And you know, I'll leave it at this. You know, the the other message is on that part is like, we don't deserve this fish given how we treated them, yet they keep coming back. So it's now time to Yeah. It's time to honor them. Yeah, when when their noses are pressed against the dam, what do they do? They stay there, right? And it's amazing. If you If you tear it down, just like Guild of Dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. If you remove the barrier, they will come. Yep. And and we've seen. Yeah. And so we're ⁓ so we've got a track record and we've got a recipe and now it's just, you know, ⁓ yeah, building the team and building the followers to to help support our mission. Man, that's that is so stating the obvious, which sometimes I truly excel at, if ⁓ you know, if you don't have the funding, you're you're unemployed and ASF is poof gone. And just the incredible things you're doing for the salmon and you know, I I think equally if not more important, conservation and the thousands of species that are affected by it. And you know, so On the financial front, what what are the biggest issues? What what's the biggest issue facing your organization right now? Yeah, you know, we'd we've done an amazing job. ⁓ you know, ⁓ slow and steady wins the race from the moment, you know, seventy eight years ago we started, you know, ⁓ you know, raising money locally, raising money through our boards and and the various sand associations to get projects done. But as the you know, as the writing has, you know, been apparently, you know, on the wall for for decades now, you know, the to act and to save and to understand better how we can make our impact. ⁓ you know, it it it requires more funding, it requires more participants, more membership. And we've done a really good job with that. But you know, ⁓ you know, not to bore you with the where we are today, but we're in our first comprehensive campaign to raise a hundred we identified a hundred and thirty five million. We actually identified a ninety million dollar campaign. We've never done one, ⁓ to follow the the ⁓ pillars that we talked about for salmon science and wild samular sins and We've done incredibly well. You know, not only with our within our own organization, with our boards and our best our our board of directors, both in Canada and the US, we have a big board, ⁓ you know, to oversee ⁓ you know, the ⁓ the salmon populations in Canada and the US. We've done a great job with them. They've been incredibly generous with their time and their treasure. ⁓ with ⁓ foundations associated, we've reached out. So we actually ⁓ raised our goal when the Kennebec project came in. We raised our campaign goal from ninety million. ⁓ in twenty twenty five to a hundred and thirty-five. ⁓ and we have currently, ⁓ you know, and this boggles my mind and certainly a lot of our board, you know, because of the incredible generosity of organizations and and members, we're at a hundred and twenty one million pledge towards our hundred and thirty five million dollar goal, which is amazing. And that money is ⁓ you know, as we see it, like I mentioned before, the goal is not to stop that the way in endowment. We need an endowment, yes. We have a goal of raising fifteen million separately of endowment, but our goal is to take that money and invest it today, to lever that money. We know in our our ⁓ headwaters program, sometimes we can have a seven X impact. We can take a hundred thousand dollars and we can get six hundred thousand dollars in matching funds, whether that's volunteer, the waterships, federal, provincial money, corporate sponsors, you name it. So We know our track record. We know that we give the money we raise, we can put to great use in these communities, in these rivers, and these watersheds. So it's super, super exciting. But yeah, the the the projects are only bigger. ⁓ The apricot culture industry. It is a multi-billion dollar organization. You know, there is a there are two giants in it and we're we're trying to battle. We're battling them in the courts, we're battling them on the ground with awareness campaigns with individuals in the community. ⁓ and now we're battling to try to better explain to the consumer himself when they're ordering farm raise of black salmon that, you know, that's j it's not just isolated to your table. You you don't know what that fish is, but more importantly, instead of saving the world by By choosing this fish, you're actually, you know, ⁓ threatening the very, you know, wild species that this fish is based on. So, you know, we have a a program right now ⁓ called Off the Table, where we're slowly and ⁓ but ⁓ you know methodically and in with impact ⁓ attracting some of the best chefs in the world, the best restaurants in the world to take farm salmon, Bar Marie salmon off the table. ⁓ and we're doing it with some of the best restaurants around the country and around the world. ⁓ and making sure that consumers know that when they order a farm raised salmon in ⁓ restaurant who carries in Peoria, Illinois or it's in Glasgow, Scotland, that that order is, you know, causing or leading to the extirpation of, you know, wildlang salmon. And there are other alternatives. There is land based aquaculture, there are other protein sources. So we're just trying to to work ⁓ with these restaurants or work with consumers for them to recognize that you can, you know, there are there is a way. Yeah. And you know, ⁓ I think in today's world, you know, in the you know, certainly in Vermont where I live, you know, we are a local, you know, food to table community and people are really starting to care where their food comes from, right? And it's easy to just look the other way when you're ordering sushi and think, ⁓ it's you know, while delay examined, I'm eating that. Well, the reality is, you know, there's a there's a cost ⁓ to that choice for that food ordering. So that's one of the you know ⁓ that's why I think if you if you would talk to me five years ago ⁓ or ten years ago that we would be, you know, taking on this challenge, I would never have thought it possible. And if you talk to me thirty years ago when the salmon aquaculture industry was born, it was, you know, on the unintended law of unintended consequences, it was a godsend to wild the bank salmon. ⁓ we're not gonna harvest commercial fish anymore. We're not gonna have trawlers and and you know boats out there trying to take these fish, we'll now raise them, but no one thought that, you know, the the externality of farm ray salmon would be pollution, disease, genetic, ⁓ you know, ⁓ you know, mutation, etcetera. So, you know, it's ⁓ it's that side reef that goes up and down. ⁓ what a fascinating education you've given to us all. This is absolutely incredible. So back ⁓ you know, I guess back to the core element of fundraising. And you know, I as as everybody knows, the connection between Smart to Fish Wild Podcast and Silver Oak Wealth Planning, you know, my career for the last twenty five years is one. And only one word. And that one word is conservation. ⁓ and the connection, I know that sounds kind of a hazy connection, but it's not. You know, we really enable people to define in the most efficient manner exactly, exactly how they can be absolutely the most efficient with their money and We intend to give people true peace of mind that their own personal goals, their goals for their kids, for their grandkids, for their alma mater, everything is great and set. It's in titanium. We've mitigated all the risks. ⁓ and it's beautiful when you say you're gonna live to a hundred years old and very conservatively we can say there's ten million dollars left over. And you know, the trusts are funded for a dynasty for your grandkids and for your kids. Once again, they're all set. You know, can we put that would it bring meeting and touching, feeling, sensing what you're doing to give that money, you know, over the next 10, 20 years as opposed to waiting till you're six feet under? I mean, live it, breathe it, touch it. That's my passion. That's my passion. So What do you think prevents more people from making giving to conservation really part of their financial planning? What do you think prevents that? Well, ⁓ before I ⁓ try to answer that question, it's a tough one. I I salute what you're doing because, you know, i i it's all about, you know, it's it's the ⁓ you know, they they prove it, you the endorphins, the the satisfaction, the the pleasure somebody gets from giving. to others, right? Altruism, you know, giving back ⁓ to you know people who are fortunate who've have have the resources that they can spread them. It's real, right? And so and the impact that donors have, I think the first question, the my first attempt at why people hold back is they don't think it matters or they don't think that they're going to have an impact. You know, ⁓ a hundred bucks a year or twenty-five bucks a month, you know, that ⁓ well what impact is that going to have? And I think that people have to to go back and think about that. You know, there there's, you know, the any any get that you can make to something you care about, especially the conservation world, is landing really, really well. Because there's there's non glamorous realities, right? To a nonprofit, you know, who's gonna pay the light bill, who's gonna keep the, you know, the lease going and the office space and all that. But you know, those are all parts of the really important, you know, challenge that, you know, if not us, then who's gonna look after these things? And at the end of the day, you know, ⁓ I do think that there is a, you know, a tremendous, you know No one plan giving is one aspect. You know, you're talking about, you know, how do you plan your you know, your estate, you know, and nobody wants to talk about, you know, at first no one wants talk about life when they're gone. But at the at the same time, you know, as I talk to donors, I want to remind them, you know, my goal is to make the IRS the number one, you know, donor in this transaction. You know, there are ways that, you know, to give from your IRA to you know to especially when you're seventy and a half and they be able to give, you know, your you know, your required rhythm of distribution. You know, if you don't need it to to to transfer that over or to give, you know, to to make stock gifts of, you know, of ⁓ you know appreciated stock that you don't have to pay a capital gain on. You give it to a nonprofit and they get to ⁓ cash it in, you get the retail deduction, all that stuff. There's so many ways to, you know, kind of remind people how they can have impact. ⁓ and they might not feel ⁓ you know, the their own, you know, the the pain of giving more than than than they want or have a have a directly impact their, you know, their lifestyle or whatever. You know, I'm babbling a little bit, but you know what I mean. I mean, the I think it's about educating people that they can make a difference. You know, and no gift is too small and no gift is too large. If you care about it and you believe in an organization, then engage with us. Let us let us talk you through why it matters. Right. And yeah, my team, particularly my my ⁓ partner, ⁓ David Owens, ⁓ very proud of his proficiency on, you know, very robust planning platform engine software called eMoney. And, you know, we can walk ⁓ you know, walk people through. And they don't even necessarily have to be a client. ⁓ you know, we can walk them through, you know, financial planning, you know, previously you're making it to a hundred with a million dollars left over. If we are able to you know, get higher returns at lower risk and combine potentially the actuarial insurance with, you know, estate planning with the investments, mitigate long term care, blah blah blah. Now you have ten million at age one hundred. You know, let us show you four different ways to make that donation. You know, highly appreciated equity. Here is what that costs you. Here's what it saves you in taxes. Bada bing, bada boom. Yep. Here is distribution out of ⁓ an IRA, you know, bada bing, bada boom. ⁓ here is, you know, out of cash, out of, you know, income. Here's out of appreciated real estate. And so we can walk people through that. And it's really fun doing it with an estate planning attorney, you know, on the Zoom call. And we're, you know, we're literally just showing them our, you know, the screen. And you know, exactly dollar for dollar, cent for cent. What you know, what is what is the most beneficial way that they can give X amount of dollars. Yeah. You know. ASF is the winner and we we all know who we love to be on the losing sideline. That's Uncle Sam. Yeah. No, I'm I'm I'm done now. You on this one. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, no, it it's and I I do think I am so hopeful, you know, I've got three young kids and you they give, yeah, they're not they're at the beginning of their earning years. Got one's working in campaigns, one's working in you know the insurance industry, but they get back. They get, you know, ⁓ and it's so cool to see that, you know. And so with you know, when I was teaching at Berkshire, I taught an economanthropy class, which I loved because looking around the table, these were some really, you know Some great kids, but some privileged families, right? You know, and privileged kids who just didn't you know, nobody had taken time to walk them through, well, what's philanthropy all about or what does it mean? Or how does a nonprofit survive? And so long story short, you know, I think that, you know, we've we've got to do a better job. I say we, you, me, and everyone in this country, to make sure that, you know, giving back is not optional, but it's it's required and why, you know, why? And I'm not here to like wag my finger at people who don't, but you know, one opportunity, you know, because you start early, you know, ⁓ with kids, whether it's giving back to their your alma mater or giving back to local charity, you know, it it it makes you feel good, but it has an impact, right? And, you know, as you get to grow and your earnings grow, then what could be better than having your impact of the things you care about grow with them? Right. And that's what you're doing. And that's what we're all trying to do. And it's great when you get somebody who is engaged and ready to roll up their sleeves and, you know, Like I look at our board, you know, and and we ask them, you know, that ASF be one of their top three philanthropic priorities. Of course it is. And then, you know, it's their time, it's their treasure, and it's their role decks, right? It's like they want to think about, you know, who needs to hear this story? Like who who might we be able to expand our audience with? And and you, ⁓ what better than anybody, we're in the greatest wealth transfer in the history of the Western world right now, right? And, you know, how do we, you know Some of that next generation might not know or be equipped to figure out how to give that away or how to play a role with that. You know, and we we've just got to do a better job of educating, you know. And I I'm a fundraiser and as I said, a recovering banker. I'm not afraid to ask for money, right? ⁓ what ⁓ and I'm not afraid to explain why we need it. And I love the challenge question as it come back. You know, well, what you know, why bother? Well, you know, it's like, what do you mean? What you know, like some people be like, you're never gonna stop the aquaculture. It's like, well. If we don't, who is, right? So it it's just fun to be at the forefront of those conversations right now, you know, to to to be able to to imagine how might we, how might you, you know, Mr. Havercamp, how might you, you know, make a different story like Seba, you know, on and that's that's why I run this right now.