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At some point in those months of no, no help, no recovery, I got that vase down.
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And I said,"You know what?
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I have too much history with God.
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I'm gonna use this faith.
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I'm gonna wrestle it, and poke it, and prod it, and question it." And when I did, I discovered that it actually strengthened my faith, and it didn't break.
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Welcome back to Singing Through Fire.
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I'm your host, Lara Silverman, and today we're continuing our Faith in the Furnace series, where we interview Christian warriors with powerful testimonies of God's grace in modern-day lions' dens.
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I am so excited to introduce you to Laurie Ann Wood.
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After discovering a serious heart condition almost too late, Laurie Ann Wood became an award-winning author and speaker who encourages deep faith questions along the detours of life.
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Laurie Ann's first book, Divine Detour: The Path You'd Never Choose Can Lead to the Faith You've Always Wanted, is available in print, e-book, and audiobook on Amazon.
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Laurie Ann's perseverance through great suffering is such an inspiration to me personally, so without further ado, let's sing through the fire.
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This is Singing Through Fire, where we worship when it hurts, discuss hot takes from the furnace of affliction, and explore a biblical theology of suffering with a side of sass and sarcasm.
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From lamentations to laughter, this podcast is for anyone desperate for hope who's ever asked,"Why, Lord, why?" I've lost my health, career, and husband, so we're in this fight for faith together.
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I'm so excited to have you, Laurie Ann.
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Welcome to the show.
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Would you just tell us, i- just to kick us off here, tell us about your furnace story in a nutshell.
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Mm-hmm.
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This all started 10 years ago.
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I The funny thing is, I had a medical evaluation for a life insurance policy to see if I could get preferred life insurance, and I did, and they told me that I had less than 3% chance of ever developing heart disease in my lifetime.
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Ugh.
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And so I thought, well, okay, that sounds right because I had no family history and I had no risk factors.
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You know, I was worried about cancer and car wrecks and things like that, but never heart disease.
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And so it was just three weeks after that and I learned on the day, on day one of being there that I had end-stage heart failure and my heart was functioning at just 6%.
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And so that started- Oh my gosh this detour that I had ne- I never saw coming, I never would have thought I would be on.
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The nurses were coming in in tears.
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Doctors were thinking I wasn't gonna leave the hospital.
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And then I was flown to Cleveland Clinic and became my doctor's most critical patient there for a year and a half.
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My doctor said that when, when I got to Cleveland Clinic, she said my heart was the largest heart she'd ever seen, and I was shocked at that.
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And sh- what happened was then is I wore an external defibrillator, called a life vest, for nine months under my clothes that would shock my heart back into the correct rhythm if needed.
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And I carried around a card at that time that said that I was at high risk of dying suddenly.
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And I just, I took a lot of medications, and I'm still taking those medications.
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And then I got an internal device about a year later, and that is an internal defibrillator and pacemaker specially made for heart failure patients.
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But despite all of that excellent care, I had no improvement for 16 months.
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I had people praying for me around the clock, but I had no improvement.
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And the funny thing is, about, about 16 months into it, well, it was exactly 16 months, 16 months to the day that I got my diagnosis, I came down with appendicitis, and my my doctors- Oh no, no one would operate on me because my heart was too weak for surgery.
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And they said, you know, they had an impossible choice.
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I could die in surgery because of my heart, or I could die without surgery because of my appendix.
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And so they looked at my heart one more time really carefully, and they discovered, against all medical odds, that my heart had somehow returned to near normal.
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No.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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And I was like, I thought that was the end of my story.
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And I thought,"Okay, I get it.
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It was divine healing and answered prayer and God's provision." And I was on such a high, and then about a year and a half later, my heart function dropped, and I found myself in active heart failure again.
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And that's where I've been for the last several years, is just managing what I've learned is a chronic progressive disease.
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W- so are you still living moment to moment that you could die any minute, or has that phase passed?
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It- Because that's what the doctors told you initially.
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Right, and they were saying, you know, when they first sent me home from ICU, they said,"You might have six months, uh, with the shape your heart's in." And you know, I just, I couldn't get my mind around that'cause I s- you know, I have these kids and all these things.
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And so now what I do is I, I have this internal defibrillator, and I'm taking these medications, and I'm being seen by these doctors regularly, and maybe it's maybe I'm living in a fog, but I don't have that immediate pressure every day like I, like I did.
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But this past year, I, in February, I had a stroke, and that scared the doctors really bad.
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I had two blood clots in my brain, and they were able to get those out, but they sc- the doctors were so worried that they did a complete transplant evaluation on me in July, and they determined that the risk of a transplant was greater than what I would get from the transplant.
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And so they, I wasn't listed.
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But- All that to say that the doctors are concerned enough to keep you know, all these options, pursuing options, but I don't feel the pressure every day of, you know, am I gonna wake up, like I did in the early days.
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And, and why do you think that is?
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Is it because you're years in...
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How many years into this are you now?
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10.
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10 years, oh my gosh.
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So how many years have you been in this more st- quote, unquote,"stable phase"- Yeah where it's, you're not worried moment to moment that you will die?
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Yeah.
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I'd say probably the last five or so I've been...
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And maybe, maybe I've just gotten used to it, or maybe it's that peace that passes understanding, but I just feel like I'm being, you know, I'm getting the best medical care I can get, I'm doing everything I can do, and I just feel at peace with it, and I'm not on pins and needles every day.
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Can you explain your current diagnosis one more time?
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So, like, what does that look like?
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Like, it means your heart is not fully...
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Can you explain- Yeah that one more time?
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Yes.
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So heart failure is a condition where your heart is not capable of producing, or is pumping hard enough or fast enough or just doing the job it needs to do to get blood to all the parts of your body that it needs to.
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Mm.
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And so it manifests itself in different ways in different people.
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But what they do is they manage that with medication and, and they can help your heart pump harder or faster or be more efficient.
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But the heart muscle itself, once you damage that heart muscle, it cannot repair itself.
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It's the only muscle in the body that doesn't repair itself.
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Wow.
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And so when you get damage from a heart attack or heart failure or something else, you just have to live with that damage and somehow compensate.
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Wow.
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And so that's what we're doing now.
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Wow.
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I mean, a- and talk about this, what did you say, 10 years?
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Yes.
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I mean, first you have I mean, I cannot I mean, I've gone through my own s- suffering, but I just cannot imagine, like, in the middle of this heart failure, then you have appendicitis, then you have a stroke.
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I mean, I'm laughing'cause I'm nervous, like, like some- you know when they say,"When it rains, it pours." I, I mean, your story, and I see the joy, you know, just still lighting up your face.
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I Let me step back.
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So first of all, I'm so glad that you feel like you're in a space now where And I read your beautiful book.
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Everyone, I read her book.
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You've got to read it.
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It's just so beautiful.
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But hearing it in person when you're saying it kinda makes me relive the story in a, in a more realistic way just hearing it from you.
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But I wanna ask you, you know, I know what it's like not to get the answer to prayer or the deliverance you want for a very long time.
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And in that sacred space, our theology changes for better or worse.
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And for you, it's kind of strange'cause you kinda got the deliverance, like, the miracle, and then your hopes got so high, and then a year later you're back in the pit.
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I can't imagine the questions you asked God.
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And out of your suffering, you wrote a book years later called Divine Detour.
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And I love your subtitle, which is,"The path you'd never choose can lead to the faith you've always wanted." Can you elaborate for us how your faith has changed this last 10 years and your view of God since entering this grave suffering?
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Yes.
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That's, you know, it's so true that you know that because what happened was, and I didn't even realize about myself until I was in that struggling period, is I- At first I felt like I had been given this heirloom faith by my family.
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I had been carefully given this beautiful heirloom, and I didn't realize it, but I was protecting it.
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And I didn't want to get it down and use it in this messy heart failure journey because what if I broke it?
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And if I broke it, I couldn't pass it down to my kids.
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And so in my mind, I took that faith that I had, and I bubble wrapped it, and I protected it, and I put it on a shelf.
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And I thought,"I'll come back to that faith when my life makes sense.
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When I can make sense." Oh.
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I don't wanna have to cover for God when he doesn't come through for me.
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Oof.
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And I walked away.
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I know how that feels.
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Yep.
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Yes.
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Oh my gosh.
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And, and the thing was, that was the riskiest thing I did, was putting my faith up there on that shelf.
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Yeah.
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Because so- at some point in those months of no, no help, no recovery, I got that vase down.
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And I said,"You know what?
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I have too much history with God.
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I'm gonna use this faith.
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I'm gonna wrestle it, and poke it, and prod it, and question it." And when I did, I discovered that it actually strengthened my faith, and it didn't break.
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Wow.
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I mean, what did that look like?
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Were you, like, you know, not yelling at the Lord, but in your thoughts, like,"Why, Lord, why?" Or what did lament look like to you?
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Was it like you would read the psalms of lament, or was it more anger, or what did that look like?
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Yes.
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You know, for me, it was kind of like a teenager would do to their parents, is just go to their room and slam the door and refuse to talk.
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That's what I was doing.
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Yeah.
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And, and- And I felt- Yeah I felt like God was giving me the silent treatment.
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And I'm like,"Well, I'll just give him the silent treatment right back." And so I did- Wow for a while.
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But so then how did you recover a sense of his presence?
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Like, was he s- how did that shift?
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Like, this was...
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So I'm guessing in the beginning you were demoralized, comes out of left field.
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I mean, how did your spiritual journey...
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Can you talk a little bit about how it evolved, your spiritual journey?
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Yes.
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I had so much support from my church, and family, and friends, and they were praying all the time.
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And that almost became hard for me, because when I would see them, I'd have to say,"Yeah, I'm not getting any better, but thanks for the prayers." Oh my gosh, I know that feeling.
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And- It's like you become that person.
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Yes.
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And I would, I would avoid people.
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I'd be like in the grocery store going,"Whoop, don't wanna see them." And I, at some point, as I was doing that, I thought,"How are they having so much faith for me when I can't have it for myself?" Yeah And I just thought,"You know what?
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I'm gonna I, I've gotta try it." Because every morning I'd wake up and it would be first thing on my mind.
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Why is this happening?
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Why am I not getting- Yeah any better?
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What can, what can we do?
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And so those questions never went away.
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Yeah.
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And I just decided to dive right into them.
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And meaning ask the Lo- I mean, did the Lord answer the whys?
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You know, He didn't answer the whys for the most part, and I, I think I'm learning as I've gone through this and thought more about it, I think a lot of times He doesn't answer the whys.
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Yeah.
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But He, the thing that I needed more than an, a why was I just needed permission to ask the question.
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Yeah.
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I just needed that flexibility to say,"This stinks.
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This is not what I wanted." And, and for God to say,"I get it," you know?
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It's funny-"I get it"'cause we're all raised in, like, pol- I, you know, I, maybe it's bad to call it polite Christianity, but it's like we, we, we don't wanna, I mean, we don't wanna offend the Lord.
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I don't wanna say it that way.
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But we are raised like, oh, we have to be joyful and, you know, count it all joy, and James means we're never allowed to cry out to the Lord, and that means you have no faith.
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And it's like actually, look at the Psalms.
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Like, they're like, look at all the emotions.
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You know, how, how did you feel like you kind of shifted from maybe anger and questioning, like the temper tantrum like a kid- Mm-hmm into,"Okay, Lord, I'm starting to trust you again"?
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Yes.
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You know, I still struggle with that every day because I like answers.
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I, I think I was raised either in a culture or maybe it's my personality, but I thought val- the value was in the answers.
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Oh my gosh, me too.
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And so when I don't have answers...
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But what I've learned is the value is really in the question, because that's what keeps your faith alive.
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You know, the opposite of faith isn't doubt.
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The opposite of faith is just indifference.
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Just saying,"Eh, I'm done with it," and walking away.
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Yeah.
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And so as long as you're in there questioning and wrestling and wondering like, like David did in the Psalms, and even Jesus asked on the cross.
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As long as you're in there and asking those questions, you still have faith.
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You still believe He's out there, and you're reaching out to Him.
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Yeah,'cause otherwise, why would you even be still talking to Him?
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Right.
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I mean, when, when people were encouraging you to have faith, I feel like in my journey, people had kind of a pr- and they meant well, but like a prosperity gospel.
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Like,"Oh, you will heal," and, and,"Oh, you're lacking faith." It's like, actually, God does say no.
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God never healed Paul's thorn in the flesh.
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Like, there are countless examples of God saying no to godly desires in the Bible.
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So did your, I think, did your faith wrestle with that tension of I don't know and you're still struggling?
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I mean, right, you have not been healed, correct?
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Right.
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Right.
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And I think I would see it in other people where I'd see these good, godly people who never got an an- the answer that they wanted for physical healing.
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Yes.
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And I thought,"That can't make sense.
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It can't make sense that it depends on m- me and my prayers and my faith." And that's not to discount that God can't do anything He wants.
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Right.
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But at the same time, it has to be more than just me.
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It has to be bigger than that.
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And so, you know, I, that became a really big, thing for me is not only praying prayers of lament, which I had never done before, but also I got to a point where one of the techs at Cleveland Clinic who prayed with us every time, one time, uh, we went in there deep into the journey, and she shut the door, and she said,"Are we still praying for healing?" Wow.
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And I remember thinking,"Well, yeah." Yeah, exa- But, but at, I walked out of there and I thought, you know, at some point And my dad passed away from cancer, so I understand that at some point- Yeah you get to that point where I'm gonna leave this to God to finish this story.
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I'm not gonna spend those last moments desperately pleading for something that- Yeah likely won't happen, even though I know he could, and that doesn't take away from the fact that he could.
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But when we And I call that a prayer of relinquishment.
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I was relinquishing what I thought was the best end to the story- Oh to God's greater knowledge of what is the better end of the story.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, how do you view it when people tell you God knows what's best?
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It's like when people say that to those of us who are in grave suffering, what does that p- biblical principle Because it i- I mean, his ways are perfect and just.
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He is righteous in all he does.
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All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful.
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And so how do you view that idea and that tension with, well, then, why am I suffering?
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Is the answer just Isaiah 55,"His ways are higher than our ways"?
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Is that all we have to cling to?
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You know, that's one I still, I still wrestle with a lot.
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But for sure I've learned that God's way more interested in our character than in our physical healing.
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He's way more interested in that.
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And- He, he's gone to so many lengths throughout history to keep the conversation going with us.
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Yeah.
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You know, at any cost to him or to us.
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Yes.
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And so maybe he's trying to get our hearts.
00:17:28.855 --> 00:17:31.148
Maybe he's trying to get our attention.
00:17:31.152 --> 00:17:36.305
Maybe he's trying He's, he's laying the groundwork for things we can't even see.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:45.134
And, you know, one of the, one of the Bible verses I love is in Hebrews where it talks about all the faith heroes, and it lists them all out.
00:17:45.231 --> 00:17:45.617
Yeah.
00:17:45.692 --> 00:17:57.186
And then it says something that we don't like to read that says,"All of these people were living by faith when they died, but they did not receive the things promised." Oh, I love that verse.
00:17:57.297 --> 00:17:57.667
Yeah.
00:17:57.809 --> 00:17:58.798
That's one of mine, too.
00:17:59.384 --> 00:18:01.760
And, and you're like, well, there you go.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:08.950
You know, I know there's promises, and he has, he will fulfill them because that's his nature, but it might not be in my lifetime.
00:18:08.955 --> 00:18:08.965
Yeah.
00:18:09.036 --> 00:18:14.799
I might be suffering for something that will happen in the next generation or generations to come.
00:18:15.474 --> 00:18:15.996
Wow.
00:18:16.054 --> 00:18:17.384
A- a- absolutely.
00:18:17.401 --> 00:18:26.161
Abs- I mean, my husband's legacy, he died of cancer one year after we got married, and his legacy was always preaching from the pulpit that there- God has a purpose.
00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:30.146
Even if we can't see it on this side of eternity, we will see it on the other side.
00:18:30.621 --> 00:18:39.563
And, I mean, d- I wanna ask, did you ever question God like,"Why me?" Like, why is this the way that you think I will best conform to Christ?
00:18:39.563 --> 00:18:43.330
Like, if this is all about character, Romans 8:29, we're conforming to Christ.
00:18:43.688 --> 00:18:49.750
Like, why do I need such a tough iron rod, Lord, compared to, you know, the sprinkles of suffering?
00:18:49.798 --> 00:18:52.583
Like, in terms of the comparison with other believers.
00:18:52.583 --> 00:18:54.307
Does'Cause I really struggled with that.
00:18:55.008 --> 00:18:55.576
Yes.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:03.587
And I, I think one of the things that I don't know, that I wrestled with, and it's actually a chapter in the book called Size of Loss.
00:19:03.635 --> 00:19:14.682
And- It's, you know, some people would even say to me after my diagnosis, they'd, they'd have something bad happen in their life, and they'd be like,"Oh, but I don't wanna bother with y- you with that.
00:19:14.694 --> 00:19:27.842
You know, you have so much more, and yours is so much worse." And I thought, I don't think God cares, you know, about how big my suffering is or someone else's suffering because we all sort of own all of that suffering.
00:19:27.854 --> 00:19:28.153
You know?
00:19:28.154 --> 00:19:28.169
Mm.
00:19:28.169 --> 00:19:32.951
Jesus brought us into one story, and all of that suffering flows into this one river.
00:19:33.404 --> 00:19:43.183
You know, whether we have a school shooting and we don't know any, any of the victims, or we have a tsunami somewhere, all of that suffering becomes part of everyone's suffering.
00:19:43.227 --> 00:19:45.765
And Jesus came to take it all away.
00:19:45.778 --> 00:20:00.096
And so I don't think anybody's suffering is too small to bring to God, but I also don't think that any of us are gonna bear something that is bigger than what God knows that with Him we can bear.
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:06.666
So it's, it's kind of, it's almost a little bit like a I trust you enough with this part of my story.
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:12.633
So I trust that you think I need this very severe, you know, whatever, this valley.
00:20:12.987 --> 00:20:14.464
It's just, it's kind of a mystery.
00:20:14.465 --> 00:20:17.115
We don't know why some people cancer, other people chronic illness.
00:20:17.115 --> 00:20:18.123
We really don't know.
00:20:18.124 --> 00:20:20.685
I mean, would that reflect your...
00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:21.060
Yeah.
00:20:21.443 --> 00:20:21.747
Yeah.
00:20:21.747 --> 00:20:29.019
And, and I, I still struggle with whether God allows it- Oh or whether He causes it- Right or whether He just knows about it.
00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:29.031
Yeah.
00:20:29.094 --> 00:20:36.387
And I don't know all of that, and we won't know this side of eternity how that works because we couldn't handle it if we did know, so.
00:20:36.826 --> 00:20:41.194
Yeah, I mean, Job is a mystery because it's, you know, Satan asks to...
00:20:41.246 --> 00:20:45.453
Or, well, actually, God says,"Have you considered my servant Job?" Right.
00:20:45.734 --> 00:20:47.083
And it's like some of us are kind of offended.
00:20:47.083 --> 00:20:49.830
Like,"Lord, why are you putting this man, this poor, righteous man- Throw that...
00:20:50.824 --> 00:20:51.732
It's a mystery.
00:20:51.737 --> 00:20:57.394
Like, I'm a big, you know, God sovereignty person, if you will, in terms of everything that happens is ultimately God's will.
00:20:57.409 --> 00:20:59.471
Now, does that mean He causes it or allows it?
00:20:59.471 --> 00:21:00.363
You know, it's murky.
00:21:00.365 --> 00:21:03.314
But ultimately, everything gets filtered through His hands.
00:21:03.671 --> 00:21:16.576
I wanna ask you what assumptions had to die, about God had to die in your mind to get you to this place where you are now stronger in your faith or able to even have faith despite your grave suffering?
00:21:17.003 --> 00:21:17.461
Mm-hmm.
00:21:18.001 --> 00:21:28.088
I think the biggest thing is what we've already talked about, is that questions were a bad thing, or that questions signal weakness, or questions signal that you're walking away from God.
00:21:28.088 --> 00:21:37.349
I think those questions were what not only kept me in the game, but they also made my faith stronger because I was able to ask that question.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.736
And I didn't have to deny that I had it.
00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:40.977
God knew I had it.
00:21:41.226 --> 00:21:41.252
Yeah.
00:21:41.252 --> 00:21:48.664
But when I'm opening up with Him about it, nothing in my life is off limits with Him when I can open up with everything.
00:21:49.743 --> 00:21:55.163
Did you feel like God grieved with you and still grieves with you in some sense?
00:21:55.288 --> 00:22:15.343
Like, has He spoken into your pain in an intimate way, like showing you His presence or- You know, there's been so many times I told you about the, the woman at Cleveland Clinic that prayed with us, and there's been so many times like that where these people would just appear out of nowhere- and, and pray.
00:22:15.368 --> 00:22:36.382
And the strange thing is, um, when I was first diagnosed, they set up a prayer chain, and people signed up to pray around the clock, and they'd set the timer on their iPhones, you know, and it'd pop up and say,"Pray for me." And I had a lady just last week send a screenshot and she said,"Still praying." And it, it was, uh, popped up and it said,"Pray for Laurie Ann." Aw.
00:22:36.395 --> 00:22:39.431
And 10 years in, she's still praying at her time.
00:22:39.744 --> 00:22:40.241
Wow.
00:22:40.662 --> 00:22:46.115
And I thought, you know, that's, that's God speaking to me that I haven't forgotten you.
00:22:46.296 --> 00:22:49.648
I have not forgotten you, even in the length of the time that you've been.
00:22:49.655 --> 00:23:02.551
But one of the things I love to do, and my husband and I have done this when we've taught Bible classes before, is we have people draw a line of their life from birth to current day, just a line.
00:23:02.792 --> 00:23:10.823
And go And have them go up when they felt closest to God and go down with the line when they felt God was far away from them.
00:23:11.297 --> 00:23:24.913
And what we found- every time was that someone would be drawing their line, and they'd say,"Oh, at seven years old my dad died." And you'd see them go closer to God, and then they'd come down to baseline again.
00:23:24.913 --> 00:23:30.272
And then, you know,"When I was 25 I got an autoimmune disease," and up, up to God again.
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:30.675
Wow.
00:23:30.696 --> 00:23:36.871
And at the hardest times of their life when they should've been falling apart, God was pulling them close.
00:23:37.459 --> 00:23:46.084
And I just love that visual because He knows all those trips we're gonna take- Yeah and He's pulling us toward himself every time.
00:23:46.345 --> 00:23:47.583
That is so beautiful.
00:23:47.584 --> 00:23:58.912
It's like s- hearkens to Psalm 34 which says,"The Lord is near to the broken-hearted." Sometimes I wonder, like, Lord, you know, and I'm not blaming God, I'm just asking, like, Lord, why can't you draw near to us when we're happy?
00:23:58.913 --> 00:24:07.701
And- and I think the problem is more maybe with us, like our God meter isn't tuned to God when everything's going well and hunky-dory,'cause we're so sinful and prideful.
00:24:07.702 --> 00:24:10.683
Like, when we're suffering, we tend to turn to God more.
00:24:10.683 --> 00:24:12.323
Maybe that's what it's about.
00:24:12.757 --> 00:24:13.088
Yeah.
00:24:13.088 --> 00:24:18.901
And so He's like,"Okay, now I'm ready to, you know, tune in now that you're tuned in to me." Right.
00:24:19.372 --> 00:24:19.971
Yes.
00:24:20.499 --> 00:24:24.144
Did you, did you ever feel like the Lord was silent?
00:24:24.156 --> 00:24:24.845
Like, just...
00:24:24.903 --> 00:24:30.482
I mean, obviously He wasn't answering your prayers the way you wanted, and is that kind of the silence you felt?
00:24:31.397 --> 00:24:35.686
You know, I did, and I, I, I remember just wanting to...
00:24:36.484 --> 00:24:47.655
And I told my husband,"I don't even know if I wanna be healed, but I just wanna know that He's in control of what's going on." And I didn't know how I needed to know that, but I just needed to know that He had it.
00:24:47.694 --> 00:24:48.076
You know?
00:24:48.076 --> 00:24:48.086
Yeah.
00:24:48.086 --> 00:24:51.489
That this wasn't all just this free fall that I was in.
00:24:51.632 --> 00:24:51.914
Yeah.
00:24:51.935 --> 00:24:53.130
That He, He had it.
00:24:53.156 --> 00:25:01.208
And one of our friends was having lunch with my husband early on and said,"God has to do something about this.
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.838
There's too many people praying." Yeah.
00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:11.039
And, and then when it didn't happen, you know, you had to sort of gr- grapple with, does He not care?
00:25:11.092 --> 00:25:13.343
Or- Yeah what's going on?
00:25:13.362 --> 00:25:24.730
And I think other people's faith kinda stepped in, strange as that sounds, and, and helped me hang on in those times where I'm like,"I don't know if I see Him." Yeah.
00:25:24.748 --> 00:25:30.636
But when I knew that they saw Him, and I knew that they were still praying, I could still hang on.
00:25:30.642 --> 00:25:30.652
Yeah.
00:25:30.708 --> 00:25:32.326
And that gave me the faith to do it.
00:25:32.561 --> 00:25:33.249
That's beautiful.
00:25:33.255 --> 00:25:35.028
That's why we're the body of Christ, right?
00:25:35.028 --> 00:25:36.493
Like, the members hold each other up.
00:25:36.509 --> 00:25:38.291
I felt that so much in my suffering.
00:25:38.292 --> 00:25:44.634
And to answer your question, like, so, like, thousands of Armenians were praying for my husband, you know, not to die of cancer.
00:25:44.636 --> 00:25:48.932
And yet, you know, after his three-year battle, the Lord said no and took him home.
00:25:48.932 --> 00:25:53.354
And so I don't think there's this correlation, like, the more prayers, the more the Lord answers.
00:25:53.354 --> 00:25:58.087
Like, this- there's so many things in this world that just don't make sense if that were true.
00:25:58.931 --> 00:26:09.883
Um, and so anyway, I-- let me move on because I wanna ask you, like, how have you lived faithfully when your prayers have gone unanswered?
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:18.784
A-and you talked a little bit about, okay, the anger and the bidden-bitterness and whatever, but, like, what do you think is the biggest component of you still being able to cling on?
00:26:18.794 --> 00:26:23.645
Like, are there specific Bible verses, or has God comforted you in surprising ways?
00:26:24.836 --> 00:26:27.913
You know, I think the biggest thing is just don't give up.
00:26:27.931 --> 00:26:49.002
Don't, be like,"I give up and I, I don't care anymore." And for me, and, and it was a hard time because I remember when I first got the diagnosis, I thought,"I'm gonna read scripture." And I've heard a lot of people validate this, but when I was first diagnosed and really hurting, scripture kinda felt almost too rich.
00:26:49.094 --> 00:26:54.281
It was too, I don't know, it just felt disingenuous for me to read that scripture.
00:26:54.281 --> 00:26:56.101
And so I would back away from it.
00:26:56.601 --> 00:26:56.980
Yeah.
00:26:57.003 --> 00:27:00.369
But, but I had to still keep connected to him.
00:27:00.375 --> 00:27:07.261
And so that's when I started reading books from trusted Christian authors or listening to Christian podcasts.
00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:07.842
Yeah.
00:27:07.842 --> 00:27:19.739
Or, you know, one of the strange ones that's really spoke to me when nothing else would is contemporary Christian music could get in there in my heart when nothing else could.
00:27:20.226 --> 00:27:27.270
And those were the things that they were just a thread that I was hanging on, and you couldn't do that forever.
00:27:27.868 --> 00:27:31.537
But in that moment, I found that thread and I hung on.
00:27:31.579 --> 00:27:33.472
And I think that made all the difference.
00:27:34.156 --> 00:27:35.164
Absolutely.
00:27:35.376 --> 00:27:47.371
I mean, were there any verses that when you read the Bible, it sort of, you said,"Hey Lord, that's not true." Like, you know, where it says,"No good thing do you withhold." Well, what about my healing?
00:27:47.378 --> 00:27:55.722
Or what about in James where it says,"If you anoint the sick person with oil, they will rise up." You know,'cause in my fight I struggled'cause I'm an analytical person like you.
00:27:55.723 --> 00:27:56.769
I wanted the answers.
00:27:56.769 --> 00:28:00.219
Like, well, if this says that you're gonna heal me, Lord, why am I not healing?
00:28:00.219 --> 00:28:04.992
And so I'm just curious if you wrestled with scripture in that way, in the way I did.
00:28:05.001 --> 00:28:05.011
Yes.
00:28:05.308 --> 00:28:06.721
And if the Lord met you there.
00:28:07.138 --> 00:28:07.711
Right.
00:28:07.990 --> 00:28:11.598
One of them that got me was in Matthew 10.
00:28:11.617 --> 00:28:16.085
It says,"Are not two sparrows worth, sold for a penny?
00:28:16.292 --> 00:28:24.454
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care." And I thought,"Well, I feel like I hit the ground." Mm.
00:28:24.473 --> 00:28:33.411
And, but what I've learned is that the hard part of applying that scripture to our everyday life is that the sparrow still falls.
00:28:34.401 --> 00:28:38.309
It's within the Father's care, but the sparrow still falls to the ground.
00:28:38.734 --> 00:28:38.750
Mm-hmm.
00:28:38.750 --> 00:28:44.270
And what I've learned is that Jesus didn't come to end suffering.
00:28:44.810 --> 00:28:45.173
Yeah.
00:28:45.294 --> 00:28:52.830
Instead, God sent a sufferer in the form of Jesus, and Jesus sort of fell on the sword of suffering for all of us.
00:28:53.178 --> 00:28:53.201
Yeah.
00:28:53.201 --> 00:29:01.217
Not so we wouldn't have to suffer, but so that he could enter into suffering with us and help us get to the other side of suffering.
00:29:02.551 --> 00:29:02.990
Yeah.
00:29:03.653 --> 00:29:05.410
What, I mean, w- can you expand on that?
00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:10.375
Like, what else has your suffering taught you about God's character that maybe you didn't know before?
00:29:10.384 --> 00:29:13.388
Is it that He's intimate with us, He walks into it with us?
00:29:13.390 --> 00:29:15.940
Like, what have you learned about God that surprised you?
00:29:16.792 --> 00:29:21.502
Yes, I think one of them is that I had this sort of transactional faith.
00:29:21.510 --> 00:29:26.041
Like, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and now, God, you're supposed to do what you're supposed to do.
00:29:26.046 --> 00:29:26.444
Yeah, me too.
00:29:26.444 --> 00:29:29.778
And when this happened, it was like, well, somebody dropped the ball.
00:29:30.513 --> 00:29:33.393
But when I realized that He's, you know...
00:29:34.371 --> 00:29:48.359
And, and this is a little bit controversial, but I don't think that prayer was actually meant to stop our bodies from being human Oh And, and sometimes we treat it that way.
00:29:48.363 --> 00:29:55.502
Like, if we could just use this, if we could leverage this prayer enough, then we can make that body superhuman.
00:29:55.974 --> 00:29:56.262
Right.
00:29:56.266 --> 00:30:00.063
And, and I don't think He ever meant for that to be the case.
00:30:00.063 --> 00:30:03.268
I think He meant for prayer to be an avenue to Him.
00:30:04.179 --> 00:30:06.528
And, and that's where our character comes in.
00:30:06.782 --> 00:30:13.582
If we're using prayer as leverage to get Him to do something- Yeah that's not really what it was ever meant to be.
00:30:13.595 --> 00:30:18.923
And, and that's us misusing it, and that's not God not fulfilling His promises.
00:30:18.923 --> 00:30:21.318
And, and that was a big leap for me.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:31.201
How do you view 2 Corinthians 12:9 where Paul says, like,"My power," or my or where the Lord says,"My power is made," you know,"perfect in your weakness"?
00:30:31.226 --> 00:30:36.232
Like, you know, so Paul, Paul boasts in his weakness through his own chronic thorn in the flesh.
00:30:36.237 --> 00:30:40.661
Like, do you, do you feel like God's power has been made complete?
00:30:40.685 --> 00:30:46.339
It's kind of a vague concept, but, like, how do you view that verse in light of your own affliction?
00:30:47.113 --> 00:30:47.375
Yeah.
00:30:47.385 --> 00:30:52.198
One of the things that I see that manifesting in my life is I...
00:30:52.234 --> 00:31:00.236
You know, I wrote this book, but i- in all truth, I would not have taken the time to write it in a safer, healthier life.
00:31:00.711 --> 00:31:01.022
Yep.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:13.511
And I feel like God had some things that, you know, He wanted to be spoken or He wanted to be shared, and I don't think I would've ever done it if my life hadn't been derailed.
00:31:13.525 --> 00:31:22.440
And so- Yeah in that way, His Word is made more perfect than it would've been if I had tried to carry that word in another way.
00:31:22.992 --> 00:31:23.384
Wow.
00:31:23.412 --> 00:31:24.915
Because you have the credibility.
00:31:24.915 --> 00:31:26.231
You have gone through suffering.
00:31:26.238 --> 00:31:36.259
You've gotten your own cross, and so you can kinda speak from this place of authenticity, I think, when you're expounding on these hard biblical truths of what is suffering about and why does God allow it.
00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:38.530
And does that make sense, Mi- yeah.
00:31:38.558 --> 00:31:39.107
Yes.
00:31:39.133 --> 00:31:49.498
And I, I, I love the idea that, you know, we can have compassion for other people in their suffering, because the word compassion literally means shared suffering.
00:31:49.819 --> 00:31:50.361
Wow.
00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:50.711
Oh, wow.
00:31:50.740 --> 00:32:05.433
And so when we have suffering and we can share that with other people, then they see that reflection in their life and they're like,"Oh, we can, you know, we can walk this together." And that sharing is, is part of the wisdom we gain through suffering.
00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:07.691
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:08.336 --> 00:32:10.327
How has God sustained you?
00:32:10.328 --> 00:32:13.913
Would you say that, you know, it is true that the Lord sustains us?
00:32:13.913 --> 00:32:17.944
You know, I think there's a verse in the Psalms that says the Lord sustains him on his sickbed.
00:32:18.270 --> 00:32:24.936
In other words, have you seen God, you know, sustain you through all the ups and downs, with all the medical crises?
00:32:24.939 --> 00:32:30.865
Would you say that He's given strength to your body even when you're weak, or how does the sustaining play out?
00:32:31.452 --> 00:32:31.916
Yeah.
00:32:32.068 --> 00:32:38.535
There's been so many times physically that He's stepped in and one of them was during my stroke.
00:32:38.578 --> 00:32:57.842
I, I was at home alone when I had the stroke and It was so weird because I, I was getting ready for a doctor's appointment for something completely unrelated, and I remember thinking I was down on the floor trying to get my shoes on, and I thought,"I can't get up.
00:32:57.896 --> 00:33:01.105
I've forgotten how to get up from the floor." Oh, my God.
00:33:01.105 --> 00:33:01.756
That's what I thought.
00:33:01.791 --> 00:33:12.886
I thought,"I've gotten to that, that place in my I'm old enough that I don't remember how to get up." And I crawled around and I tried to stand up, and I sort of fell into things a few times.
00:33:12.913 --> 00:33:22.057
And then thankfully, my husband had been trying to get ahold of me, and for some reason my Apple Watch wouldn't call 911 or call my husband.
00:33:22.060 --> 00:33:25.480
And so he sensed that something was wrong and came home.
00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:33.236
But because he came home at that moment and immediately called 911 and said,"My wife's had a stroke," and they came.
00:33:33.632 --> 00:33:39.920
They were able to go in through a vein and grab those blood clots and pull them out.
00:33:39.922 --> 00:33:39.932
Oh.
00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:46.737
And when they did, I got, I got my whole left side of my face back.
00:33:46.777 --> 00:33:51.068
I got my whole I could move my left side of my body again.
00:33:52.010 --> 00:34:05.090
And the thing is, there's a time limit in there where if w- if my husband hadn't come home, or he hadn't been checking on me, or he didn't recognize it as a stroke, they wouldn't have been able to do that.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:10.342
And- Wow so many times like that when I'm like, wow, you know?
00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:14.496
So does that strengthen your faith that, okay, God's timing.
00:34:14.507 --> 00:34:21.507
In other words, the day he wants me to leave this earth, it's gonna happen, because I'm seeing all these other miracles where, all right, it's not time yet.
00:34:21.844 --> 00:34:26.432
Y- you know, like, God must know what he's doing because otherwise you just can't explain that.
00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:28.309
It That's exactly right.
00:34:28.335 --> 00:34:34.655
Because, you know, I have I recently had two grand babies, and I don't, I'm not ready to go.
00:34:34.655 --> 00:34:35.501
I don't wanna go.
00:34:35.521 --> 00:34:37.818
But, but you're right, exactly.
00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:48.467
When, when you see the times where it sort of fell in your favor, you have to say,"Well, when it doesn't fall in my favor, I still have to trust him that he knows what he's doing." Yeah.
00:34:48.534 --> 00:34:49.507
It's Oh, my gosh.
00:34:49.813 --> 00:34:53.331
On that note, does eternity feel more palatable to you?
00:34:53.336 --> 00:34:55.331
I mean, I'm guessing absolutely.
00:34:55.331 --> 00:35:04.960
I mean, me going through my husband's cancer and all the stuff I've gone through, like, it just But, I mean, has God taught you anything specifically about eternity in your situation?
00:35:04.965 --> 00:35:04.976
Yeah.
00:35:05.547 --> 00:35:16.152
I love that question because we talked about this recently in a Bible class, and I think the thing that I'm looking most forward to is to be released from the concept of time.
00:35:16.648 --> 00:35:16.822
Oh.
00:35:16.838 --> 00:35:22.532
Because every pain point in my life is a c- is a product of time.
00:35:22.936 --> 00:35:26.347
You know, my kids growing up, my parents growing old.
00:35:26.914 --> 00:35:26.940
Oh.
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:29.751
Chronic illness, regret.
00:35:30.070 --> 00:35:30.090
Right.
00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:30.628
Fear.
00:35:30.693 --> 00:35:32.547
It's all a product of time.
00:35:33.195 --> 00:35:36.702
And when we're in eternity, time can't hurt any of us anymore.
00:35:37.795 --> 00:35:45.067
And I'm so looking forward to that, and I wouldn't have thought of that outside of this time that I've had with chronic illness.
00:35:45.902 --> 00:35:46.429
Wow.
00:35:46.492 --> 00:35:49.739
That's a really I mean, I haven't thought about it.
00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:52.235
I mean, I know Randy Alcorn, he's one of my favorite pastors.
00:35:52.242 --> 00:35:54.932
He, he kinda is of the view, he writes on heaven.
00:35:54.934 --> 00:36:14.163
He says,"Well, there's gotta be time because the martyrs in Revelation are, like, you know, crying out to the Lord and'How long, how long?'" So it's, it's sort of conf- I'm not saying you're wrong on there's no time in heaven, but that whole concept blows my mind'cause it's like, okay, what is this even gonna look like, like- Right with the Lord a day is like 1,000 or y- you know the verse I'm saying.
00:36:14.291 --> 00:36:14.827
Yes.
00:36:14.860 --> 00:36:15.481
Yes.
00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:16.208
Yes.
00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:26.264
And I think part of that too, that time thing, and me feeling so pulled into, you know, how the timing is is part of that struggle I've had with control all my life.
00:36:26.264 --> 00:36:30.240
Like- Oh I need to know the answer, and I wanna know the plan, and I wanna know the time.
00:36:30.527 --> 00:36:30.833
Yeah.
00:36:30.835 --> 00:36:35.432
And to be released from all that is such, such something to look forward to.
00:36:36.195 --> 00:36:37.186
Absolutely.
00:36:37.601 --> 00:36:43.414
Is there a specific Bible, Bible verse that's your favorite verse that you have clung to through this?
00:36:44.193 --> 00:36:44.583
Yes.
00:36:44.585 --> 00:36:49.150
Well, Hebrews 11:13 about the saints not receiving the things promised.
00:36:49.394 --> 00:36:49.653
Yes.
00:36:49.668 --> 00:36:57.563
But sort of the, the prequel of that verse that I, I stumbled onto way early after my diagnosis.
00:36:57.786 --> 00:36:59.130
I went into a Bible class.
00:36:59.130 --> 00:37:01.570
And again, one of those things where you just can't explain.
00:37:01.844 --> 00:37:03.793
I went into the wrong Bible class.
00:37:04.155 --> 00:37:18.369
And you know when you go in and you're like,"Whoops, I shouldn't be in here," but you just sit down anyway, and you're just kinda like,"I'll pretend like I'm supposed to be here." And they had been studying, you know, John 13, and so I just opened my Bible and go right along.
00:37:18.681 --> 00:37:23.018
And that day they were looking at John 13:7.
00:37:23.172 --> 00:37:34.018
And this is where Jesus was washing the disciples' feet, and he said,"You do not understand now what I'm doing, but later you will understand." Oh.
00:37:34.059 --> 00:37:37.048
And I, I have been back to that so many times.
00:37:37.429 --> 00:37:45.402
But then when you pair that with Hebrews 11:13 that we talked about earlier, we may not understand this side of eternity.
00:37:46.478 --> 00:37:48.255
It may be after we die.
00:37:48.686 --> 00:37:53.860
But there will be a reason for what we're going through, and God has it under control.
00:37:53.860 --> 00:37:58.621
And that one is That one feels very personal to me.
00:37:59.994 --> 00:38:10.375
I mean, that, I, I just read that verse, like, a while ago, and I remember thinking like,"Oh, this is really interesting." I had never thought about it, and I was thinking the same thing you were.
00:38:10.375 --> 00:38:14.028
So that is really-- It's like when Paul-- A precious promise.
00:38:14.030 --> 00:38:16.842
It's like when Paul said,"Then I will know fully," right?
00:38:16.842 --> 00:38:17.121
The verse.
00:38:17.128 --> 00:38:17.349
Yes.
00:38:17.382 --> 00:38:19.317
I can't remember if it's Philippians or Corinthians.
00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:24.445
But that is really beautiful, and--'Cause there's been so many times where I've cried out to God,"Why?
00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:24.715
Why?
00:38:24.731 --> 00:38:35.226
Why?" And He always gives me back the same verse, which is Proverbs 3:5,"Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." It's like,"Laura, Laurie Ann, some things you just aren't gonna get.
00:38:35.228 --> 00:38:37.737
The secret things belong to the Lord." Deuteronomy, you know?
00:38:37.737 --> 00:38:42.195
And so you and I have a similar, you know-- We wrestle with the Lord.
00:38:42.197 --> 00:38:43.603
I think He honors that.
00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:46.820
this podcast is all about how God, you know, singing through fire.
00:38:46.827 --> 00:38:49.025
Somehow God calls us to rejoice in suffering.
00:38:49.034 --> 00:38:50.782
Paul and Silas are singing in prison.
00:38:51.132 --> 00:38:52.811
You know, we are called to rejoice.
00:38:52.813 --> 00:38:53.623
Count it all joy.
00:38:53.632 --> 00:38:58.688
H- As counterintuitive and painful as it is, has the Lord equipped you to have joy?
00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:01.585
Has he surprised you with joy th- the last 10 years?
00:39:03.219 --> 00:39:04.418
So many times.
00:39:04.442 --> 00:39:10.724
And, you know, I think the, almost the precursor to joy was that I had that peace.
00:39:10.784 --> 00:39:21.670
Like, once I got to a place of peace, and I could relax and kinda let my guard down a little bit, I could see the joy more clearly, and I could recognize it and grab onto it.
00:39:21.681 --> 00:39:24.907
And I think that was the thing that I first got was peace.
00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:30.634
And once I got that peace and felt it, then I could see the joy and grasp onto it.
00:39:30.646 --> 00:39:41.853
And so many times, whether it was being around to see my kids graduate from high school when they said you won't be, or, you know, having these grandkids that they said wouldn't h- ever happen.
00:39:41.878 --> 00:39:45.351
And there's just so much joy in that.
00:39:45.364 --> 00:40:00.244
And, you know, even though that some people, when they pray, they don't get those specific moments of joy, I think if you look and you fall into that peace and, and accept that peace, you'll find bits of your own joy in other ways in your story.
00:40:00.916 --> 00:40:09.873
What would you say to the person out there who's just in total despair, maybe the shock of an initial diagnosis or divorce or whatever they're walking through that the Lord has allowed.
00:40:09.893 --> 00:40:10.791
Would you say...
00:40:11.226 --> 00:40:13.184
And they just cannot find that peace.
00:40:13.211 --> 00:40:15.469
They're just w- so close to despair.
00:40:15.471 --> 00:40:18.574
We've all been there, you know, if you've, you know, gone through grave suffering.
00:40:18.603 --> 00:40:19.949
Can you speak into that?
00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:24.280
Or any advice that you wish you had known about clinging to the Lord or...
00:40:25.456 --> 00:40:25.929
Yes.
00:40:25.931 --> 00:40:32.518
I think one of the things I would say is that just keep that conversation going, even if it feels like...
00:40:32.518 --> 00:40:41.927
You know, I think most of us, and we talked about this earlier, may have been raised in the, in the idea of if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all, right?
00:40:42.304 --> 00:40:42.639
Yeah.
00:40:42.646 --> 00:40:51.641
But sometimes when you're really suffering and you're reaching out to God, it might not feel nice, but it may feel desperate, and that's okay.
00:40:51.653 --> 00:40:52.846
He can handle that.
00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:59.396
You know, not disrespectful, but just honest, and just keep that conversation going.
00:41:00.099 --> 00:41:07.208
If you've ever felt like life's challenges are burning a little too hot and asking the Lord why, I wrote something just for you.
00:41:07.278 --> 00:41:16.588
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00:41:16.739 --> 00:41:23.429
As someone who's lost my health, career, and husband, I have a lot to say about how God walks us through great grief.
00:41:23.458 --> 00:41:34.699
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00:41:34.728 --> 00:41:40.858
It's filled with honest theological wrestling, tons of comedy, and many biblical reasons why God allows suffering.
00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:43.039
Some will definitely surprise you.
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:51.978
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00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:03.438
Some tragedies don't tie up in a redemptive bow on this side of heaven.
00:42:03.528 --> 00:42:07.179
But in Christ, redemption is always awaiting us in eternity.
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:14.692
So let's keep singing through the fire together Actually, did you feel like the Lord ever called you to surrender your grief?
00:42:14.918 --> 00:42:21.170
In other words, like, not enough is enough, Laurie Ann, but sort of like, can you just trust me?
00:42:21.501 --> 00:42:24.561
You know, not stop the questions, but do, do you understand what I'm saying?
00:42:24.561 --> 00:42:27.693
Like, getting you to surrender so that you could get the peace.
00:42:27.922 --> 00:42:29.626
'Cause otherwise you can't get the peace.
00:42:29.646 --> 00:42:31.052
Without the surrender, there's no peace.
00:42:31.713 --> 00:42:31.978
Right.
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:49.931
And I think that was part of that prayer of relinquishment that He called me into was that- You know, you have to stop pleading with me for what you think is the right answer to this situation, and leave it to me to, you know, trust me enough that I have this and that I have this answer.
00:42:49.931 --> 00:42:54.251
And once I could pray that prayer of relinquishment and say,"I'm giving it to you, God.
00:42:54.251 --> 00:43:03.630
What- however you choose to finish this story, that's your, that's yours," then that peace came, and then I was able to find that joy.
00:43:03.655 --> 00:43:19.409
And so I think that's what he was calling me into, was just laying that down and, and you know, whether you wanna call it trust or relinquishment, but it, I had to set aside what I wanted and say- Yeah"This is for your greater planned good.
00:43:19.427 --> 00:43:25.608
And whatever that greater planned good is, I wanna be part of it, and I don't know what my part is in it." Yeah.
00:43:25.664 --> 00:43:26.775
That's so beautiful.
00:43:26.784 --> 00:43:29.527
The greater planned good, the Romans 8:28.
00:43:29.527 --> 00:43:31.806
Like, you know, it might not just be about us.
00:43:31.809 --> 00:43:42.722
I think, uh, John Piper has this famous thing where he says,"God is doing 10,000 things, and you might only see three of them, or you might not even see any of them until eternity." And that's very comforting.
00:43:42.722 --> 00:43:44.518
It's like, it's not just about us.
00:43:44.536 --> 00:43:47.331
The Lord is working out s- you know, purposes of salvation.
00:43:47.331 --> 00:43:53.391
Look at Genesis 50:20, where you know, Joseph said what, what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good.
00:43:53.393 --> 00:43:57.197
So these biblical truths really do sustain us.
00:43:57.597 --> 00:44:05.021
What would you say is something that, that Christians get wrong about suffering that you hope that they can flip the script?
00:44:05.021 --> 00:44:09.326
Like for me, one thing that kinda bothers me is when people say,"Oh, it's a season.
00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:18.338
That's a season of suffering." But for me, it's like, with a chronic illness and like yours, I mean, for me, I think, well, no, for some of us, it's a lifelong cross, you know?
00:44:18.338 --> 00:44:19.922
I mean, it's been, for you it's been 10 years.
00:44:19.923 --> 00:44:20.949
For me, it's been eight years.
00:44:20.967 --> 00:44:22.992
Maybe it's not lifelong, but it could be.
00:44:23.445 --> 00:44:24.402
So how do you...
00:44:24.454 --> 00:44:30.543
A- are there any things that, about suffering that that you think Christians should change their view on?
00:44:31.632 --> 00:44:47.467
You know, I do, and I don't know if this is just Christians or not, but surely we can start there, is that I heard someone once say, you know, if you have what's considered to be an invisible illness- Yes in other words, heart disease is likely inv- is largely invisible.
00:44:47.721 --> 00:44:47.773
Yeah.
00:44:47.773 --> 00:44:50.449
So many things are invisible, and people don't see them.
00:44:51.052 --> 00:44:56.923
And people don't give others the benefit of the doubt, that if they say,"You know, I have this illness," right?
00:44:56.996 --> 00:45:01.898
"This is how I'm feeling.""Well, you look, you look great." And- Oh my gosh.
00:45:01.898 --> 00:45:03.257
That- I got that all the time.
00:45:03.268 --> 00:45:03.739
It's like- Yeah.
00:45:03.873 --> 00:45:04.831
"You look so good.
00:45:04.851 --> 00:45:15.123
But you look so good." And the, and even though that starts out sounding nice, because- Yeah you're trying to give a compliment, what you're saying is,"Can you prove to me that you're ill?
00:45:15.164 --> 00:45:17.056
Because I'm not- Yes seeing it." Exactly.
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:17.322
And I...
00:45:18.425 --> 00:45:19.190
And it was so...
00:45:19.467 --> 00:45:21.349
There was somebody, and I don't know who said this.
00:45:21.349 --> 00:45:22.536
This didn't come from me.
00:45:22.538 --> 00:45:31.802
But they said- Some people think when you have an invisible illness, you're pretending to be ill, but really you're pretending to be well.
00:45:31.849 --> 00:45:36.780
You're pretending to be well in this world- Oh, yes that's full of well people.
00:45:36.914 --> 00:45:38.423
And so I felt that.
00:45:38.463 --> 00:45:50.172
And so sometimes I think we ask for proof of something so that we can understand it instead of taking people's, you know- Just leaving them where they are Oh my gosh.
00:45:50.172 --> 00:45:51.402
Uh, Lori Anne, I feel like you're...
00:45:51.405 --> 00:45:55.494
And not in like a venting session because all our brothers and sisters in Christ mean well.
00:45:55.505 --> 00:46:02.266
They want to encourage you and get you out of the valley because they're reconciling why is God allowing this, and there must be a reason, it must be on Laura.
00:46:02.268 --> 00:46:06.235
Or not that they're blaming you, but I- you're just preaching to the choir.
00:46:06.235 --> 00:46:10.719
It helps to kind of speak to someone who's also felt a bit unseen in that sense.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:20.041
And again, people mean well, but I think the best way that sometimes people can help someone who's suffering is to just d- be like Christ.
00:46:20.041 --> 00:46:21.288
Mourn with those who mourn.
00:46:21.552 --> 00:46:23.836
You know, Jesus wept after Lazarus died.
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.983
He didn't go off on some theological rampage, you know?
00:46:27.003 --> 00:46:31.672
Like, and I, you know, I'm saying I think the people who help the most sometimes are those.
00:46:31.699 --> 00:46:35.981
Have you experienced that, like those who just comfort you by just sitting by you?
00:46:36.367 --> 00:46:37.244
Oh, for sure.
00:46:37.251 --> 00:46:44.409
Because, you know, none of us, if you think about it, none of us can tr- completely understand what someone else is going through, no matter what it is.
00:46:44.432 --> 00:46:59.731
But what we can do is just sit with them and, you know, even say,"I don't understand, and I'm sorry this is happening." But, and that's, it feels like it's not enough when you're the one offering that, but when you're the person getting it, it is enough.
00:46:59.751 --> 00:47:01.043
It feels like enough.
00:47:01.844 --> 00:47:03.090
Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:03.317 --> 00:47:05.545
So we, we're coming close to the end of our time.
00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:07.440
I just have two more questions.
00:47:07.797 --> 00:47:08.610
How would you say...
00:47:08.637 --> 00:47:09.813
So I read your book.
00:47:09.842 --> 00:47:10.692
It's amazing.
00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:12.048
Everyone should read it.
00:47:12.242 --> 00:47:17.297
There's so much personal testimony weaved in with devotional instruction for any suffering Christian.
00:47:17.876 --> 00:47:26.150
Would you say that that is the primary way in which the Lord has redeemed your suffering, or are there other, you know, buckets also?
00:47:26.188 --> 00:47:28.641
You know, how do you see His redemption playing out in your life?
00:47:29.443 --> 00:47:29.760
Yes.
00:47:29.784 --> 00:47:37.994
I mean, I think that was where it started, and once I started sharing it in written form, then it's, it's eked out.
00:47:38.007 --> 00:47:56.876
And now speaking to other people about it, and I'm It, and, you know, in doing that, it sounds like I'm helping them, but a lot of times other people are helping me maybe even more than that when I'm sharing because they're coming back, just like you're doing right now, and sharing with me your story, which is strengthening me.
00:47:56.878 --> 00:48:00.485
And I think those are the ways that He's redeeming it.
00:48:00.494 --> 00:48:06.489
And, and also just you know, in terms of legacy, what, what my kids are seeing.
00:48:06.516 --> 00:48:09.244
You know, how are they seeing that this is being handled?
00:48:09.253 --> 00:48:12.065
Or how, how am I journeying through this?
00:48:12.405 --> 00:48:14.856
And that's part of what He's doing as well.
00:48:15.237 --> 00:48:17.519
Oh, meaning as a witness to your children?
00:48:17.521 --> 00:48:23.661
Like,"Hey, when you guys go through your trials, look at how the Lord is sustaining me." It's a powerful testimony in that sense?
00:48:24.045 --> 00:48:24.601
Yes.
00:48:24.922 --> 00:48:25.773
Oh, I love it.
00:48:25.813 --> 00:48:27.059
I just absolutely love it.
00:48:27.378 --> 00:48:28.822
Uh, here's the last question.
00:48:28.905 --> 00:48:32.773
Uh, what is the one thing you want people to remember from this conversation?
00:48:32.775 --> 00:48:35.875
Like, it could be a verse or just some nugget of wisdom.
00:48:35.876 --> 00:48:37.804
Like, you have gone through so much, Laurie Ann.
00:48:37.804 --> 00:48:43.532
I cannot even imagine with the valleys and the deliverances, and then the back in the pit.
00:48:43.541 --> 00:48:47.362
I mean, you are like a modern-day Job to me, and it inspires me.
00:48:47.371 --> 00:48:47.818
And I...
00:48:48.164 --> 00:48:56.327
How, what is one piece of wisdom you can give your fellow believers just to take away from all of this or, or what you've learned?
00:48:56.818 --> 00:48:57.302
Mm-hmm.
00:48:57.981 --> 00:49:08.246
I think the main thing is to, to not put God in a box- Okay and to reach out to Him no matter where you are.
00:49:08.259 --> 00:49:15.867
I felt like I couldn't at some point reach out to Him because I was too, you know, I'm, I'm questioning too much, or I'm whatever.
00:49:16.375 --> 00:49:21.990
But as long as you're trying to keep communicating with Him, you're gonna be okay.
00:49:22.373 --> 00:49:32.369
And, and do whatever it takes, whether that's, you know, finding a, a church for sure finding other Christians, finding, um, things to read.
00:49:32.617 --> 00:49:38.101
And that way you can be prepared for whatever comes next in your, in your story.
00:49:39.150 --> 00:49:39.748
Absolutely.
00:49:39.748 --> 00:49:43.753
And we know that because of Christ's sacrifice, we know the story is never over.
00:49:43.771 --> 00:49:48.952
Even, you know, even for those tragedies where we don't see the result here, we know the story ends in eternity.
00:49:48.952 --> 00:49:52.217
The, the Lord is gonna just shock us and surprise us.
00:49:52.231 --> 00:49:54.021
I mean, I do believe that with all my heart.
00:49:54.021 --> 00:49:56.811
That's what the Lord kinda communicated to me after Matt died.
00:49:57.159 --> 00:49:59.016
The story is not over.
00:49:59.016 --> 00:50:01.550
And so thank you so much, Lorianne.
00:50:01.561 --> 00:50:03.929
I'm just so encouraged by your testimony.
00:50:03.943 --> 00:50:06.893
And, you know, thank you for joining us today, everyone else.
00:50:06.918 --> 00:50:11.036
And until next time, remember if you're suffering today, you're not forgotten.
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:13.643
This fire is not the end of your story.
00:50:13.730 --> 00:50:18.230
Be sure to hit subscribe because I upload content every week to help other sufferers.
00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:20.199
To God be the glory.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.128
At some point in those months of no, no help, no recovery, I got that vase down.
00:00:06.969 --> 00:00:08.157
And I said,"You know what?
00:00:08.538 --> 00:00:10.387
I have too much history with God.
00:00:10.412 --> 00:00:11.766
I'm gonna use this faith.
00:00:11.769 --> 00:00:21.138
I'm gonna wrestle it, and poke it, and prod it, and question it." And when I did, I discovered that it actually strengthened my faith, and it didn't break.
00:00:21.687 --> 00:00:23.660
Welcome back to Singing Through Fire.
00:00:23.681 --> 00:00:35.362
I'm your host, Lara Silverman, and today we're continuing our Faith in the Furnace series, where we interview Christian warriors with powerful testimonies of God's grace in modern-day lions' dens.
00:00:35.841 --> 00:00:39.951
I am so excited to introduce you to Laurie Ann Wood.
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After discovering a serious heart condition almost too late, Laurie Ann Wood became an award-winning author and speaker who encourages deep faith questions along the detours of life.
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Laurie Ann's first book, Divine Detour: The Path You'd Never Choose Can Lead to the Faith You've Always Wanted, is available in print, e-book, and audiobook on Amazon.
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Laurie Ann's perseverance through great suffering is such an inspiration to me personally, so without further ado, let's sing through the fire.
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This is Singing Through Fire, where we worship when it hurts, discuss hot takes from the furnace of affliction, and explore a biblical theology of suffering with a side of sass and sarcasm.
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From lamentations to laughter, this podcast is for anyone desperate for hope who's ever asked,"Why, Lord, why?" I've lost my health, career, and husband, so we're in this fight for faith together.
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I'm so excited to have you, Laurie Ann.
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Welcome to the show.
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Would you just tell us, i- just to kick us off here, tell us about your furnace story in a nutshell.
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Mm-hmm.
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This all started 10 years ago.
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I The funny thing is, I had a medical evaluation for a life insurance policy to see if I could get preferred life insurance, and I did, and they told me that I had less than 3% chance of ever developing heart disease in my lifetime.
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Ugh.
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And so I thought, well, okay, that sounds right because I had no family history and I had no risk factors.
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You know, I was worried about cancer and car wrecks and things like that, but never heart disease.
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And so it was just three weeks after that and I learned on the day, on day one of being there that I had end-stage heart failure and my heart was functioning at just 6%.
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And so that started- Oh my gosh this detour that I had ne- I never saw coming, I never would have thought I would be on.
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The nurses were coming in in tears.
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Doctors were thinking I wasn't gonna leave the hospital.
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And then I was flown to Cleveland Clinic and became my doctor's most critical patient there for a year and a half.
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My doctor said that when, when I got to Cleveland Clinic, she said my heart was the largest heart she'd ever seen, and I was shocked at that.
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And sh- what happened was then is I wore an external defibrillator, called a life vest, for nine months under my clothes that would shock my heart back into the correct rhythm if needed.
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And I carried around a card at that time that said that I was at high risk of dying suddenly.
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And I just, I took a lot of medications, and I'm still taking those medications.
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And then I got an internal device about a year later, and that is an internal defibrillator and pacemaker specially made for heart failure patients.
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But despite all of that excellent care, I had no improvement for 16 months.
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I had people praying for me around the clock, but I had no improvement.
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And the funny thing is, about, about 16 months into it, well, it was exactly 16 months, 16 months to the day that I got my diagnosis, I came down with appendicitis, and my my doctors- Oh no, no one would operate on me because my heart was too weak for surgery.
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And they said, you know, they had an impossible choice.
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I could die in surgery because of my heart, or I could die without surgery because of my appendix.
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And so they looked at my heart one more time really carefully, and they discovered, against all medical odds, that my heart had somehow returned to near normal.
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No.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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And I was like, I thought that was the end of my story.
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And I thought,"Okay, I get it.
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It was divine healing and answered prayer and God's provision." And I was on such a high, and then about a year and a half later, my heart function dropped, and I found myself in active heart failure again.
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And that's where I've been for the last several years, is just managing what I've learned is a chronic progressive disease.
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W- so are you still living moment to moment that you could die any minute, or has that phase passed?
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It- Because that's what the doctors told you initially.
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Right, and they were saying, you know, when they first sent me home from ICU, they said,"You might have six months, uh, with the shape your heart's in." And you know, I just, I couldn't get my mind around that'cause I s- you know, I have these kids and all these things.
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And so now what I do is I, I have this internal defibrillator, and I'm taking these medications, and I'm being seen by these doctors regularly, and maybe it's maybe I'm living in a fog, but I don't have that immediate pressure every day like I, like I did.
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But this past year, I, in February, I had a stroke, and that scared the doctors really bad.
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I had two blood clots in my brain, and they were able to get those out, but they sc- the doctors were so worried that they did a complete transplant evaluation on me in July, and they determined that the risk of a transplant was greater than what I would get from the transplant.
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And so they, I wasn't listed.
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But- All that to say that the doctors are concerned enough to keep you know, all these options, pursuing options, but I don't feel the pressure every day of, you know, am I gonna wake up, like I did in the early days.
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And, and why do you think that is?
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Is it because you're years in...
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How many years into this are you now?
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10.
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10 years, oh my gosh.
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So how many years have you been in this more st- quote, unquote,"stable phase"- Yeah where it's, you're not worried moment to moment that you will die?
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Yeah.
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I'd say probably the last five or so I've been...
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And maybe, maybe I've just gotten used to it, or maybe it's that peace that passes understanding, but I just feel like I'm being, you know, I'm getting the best medical care I can get, I'm doing everything I can do, and I just feel at peace with it, and I'm not on pins and needles every day.
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Can you explain your current diagnosis one more time?
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So, like, what does that look like?
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Like, it means your heart is not fully...
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Can you explain- Yeah that one more time?
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Yes.
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So heart failure is a condition where your heart is not capable of producing, or is pumping hard enough or fast enough or just doing the job it needs to do to get blood to all the parts of your body that it needs to.
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Mm.
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And so it manifests itself in different ways in different people.
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But what they do is they manage that with medication and, and they can help your heart pump harder or faster or be more efficient.
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But the heart muscle itself, once you damage that heart muscle, it cannot repair itself.
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It's the only muscle in the body that doesn't repair itself.
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Wow.
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And so when you get damage from a heart attack or heart failure or something else, you just have to live with that damage and somehow compensate.
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Wow.
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And so that's what we're doing now.
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Wow.
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I mean, a- and talk about this, what did you say, 10 years?
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Yes.
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I mean, first you have I mean, I cannot I mean, I've gone through my own s- suffering, but I just cannot imagine, like, in the middle of this heart failure, then you have appendicitis, then you have a stroke.
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I mean, I'm laughing'cause I'm nervous, like, like some- you know when they say,"When it rains, it pours." I, I mean, your story, and I see the joy, you know, just still lighting up your face.
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I Let me step back.
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So first of all, I'm so glad that you feel like you're in a space now where And I read your beautiful book.
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Everyone, I read her book.
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You've got to read it.
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It's just so beautiful.
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But hearing it in person when you're saying it kinda makes me relive the story in a, in a more realistic way just hearing it from you.
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But I wanna ask you, you know, I know what it's like not to get the answer to prayer or the deliverance you want for a very long time.
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And in that sacred space, our theology changes for better or worse.
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And for you, it's kind of strange'cause you kinda got the deliverance, like, the miracle, and then your hopes got so high, and then a year later you're back in the pit.
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I can't imagine the questions you asked God.
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And out of your suffering, you wrote a book years later called Divine Detour.
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And I love your subtitle, which is,"The path you'd never choose can lead to the faith you've always wanted." Can you elaborate for us how your faith has changed this last 10 years and your view of God since entering this grave suffering?
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Yes.
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That's, you know, it's so true that you know that because what happened was, and I didn't even realize about myself until I was in that struggling period, is I- At first I felt like I had been given this heirloom faith by my family.
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I had been carefully given this beautiful heirloom, and I didn't realize it, but I was protecting it.
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And I didn't want to get it down and use it in this messy heart failure journey because what if I broke it?
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And if I broke it, I couldn't pass it down to my kids.
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And so in my mind, I took that faith that I had, and I bubble wrapped it, and I protected it, and I put it on a shelf.
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And I thought,"I'll come back to that faith when my life makes sense.
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When I can make sense." Oh.
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I don't wanna have to cover for God when he doesn't come through for me.
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Oof.
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And I walked away.
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I know how that feels.
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Yep.
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Yes.
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Oh my gosh.
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And, and the thing was, that was the riskiest thing I did, was putting my faith up there on that shelf.
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Yeah.
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Because so- at some point in those months of no, no help, no recovery, I got that vase down.
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And I said,"You know what?
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I have too much history with God.
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I'm gonna use this faith.
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I'm gonna wrestle it, and poke it, and prod it, and question it." And when I did, I discovered that it actually strengthened my faith, and it didn't break.
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Wow.
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I mean, what did that look like?
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Were you, like, you know, not yelling at the Lord, but in your thoughts, like,"Why, Lord, why?" Or what did lament look like to you?
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Was it like you would read the psalms of lament, or was it more anger, or what did that look like?
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Yes.
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You know, for me, it was kind of like a teenager would do to their parents, is just go to their room and slam the door and refuse to talk.
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That's what I was doing.
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Yeah.
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And, and- And I felt- Yeah I felt like God was giving me the silent treatment.
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And I'm like,"Well, I'll just give him the silent treatment right back." And so I did- Wow for a while.
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But so then how did you recover a sense of his presence?
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Like, was he s- how did that shift?
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Like, this was...
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So I'm guessing in the beginning you were demoralized, comes out of left field.
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I mean, how did your spiritual journey...
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Can you talk a little bit about how it evolved, your spiritual journey?
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Yes.
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I had so much support from my church, and family, and friends, and they were praying all the time.
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And that almost became hard for me, because when I would see them, I'd have to say,"Yeah, I'm not getting any better, but thanks for the prayers." Oh my gosh, I know that feeling.
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And- It's like you become that person.
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Yes.
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And I would, I would avoid people.
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I'd be like in the grocery store going,"Whoop, don't wanna see them." And I, at some point, as I was doing that, I thought,"How are they having so much faith for me when I can't have it for myself?" Yeah And I just thought,"You know what?
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I'm gonna I, I've gotta try it." Because every morning I'd wake up and it would be first thing on my mind.
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Why is this happening?
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Why am I not getting- Yeah any better?
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What can, what can we do?
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And so those questions never went away.
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Yeah.
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And I just decided to dive right into them.
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And meaning ask the Lo- I mean, did the Lord answer the whys?
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You know, He didn't answer the whys for the most part, and I, I think I'm learning as I've gone through this and thought more about it, I think a lot of times He doesn't answer the whys.
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Yeah.
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But He, the thing that I needed more than an, a why was I just needed permission to ask the question.
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Yeah.
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I just needed that flexibility to say,"This stinks.
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This is not what I wanted." And, and for God to say,"I get it," you know?
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It's funny-"I get it"'cause we're all raised in, like, pol- I, you know, I, maybe it's bad to call it polite Christianity, but it's like we, we, we don't wanna, I mean, we don't wanna offend the Lord.
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I don't wanna say it that way.
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But we are raised like, oh, we have to be joyful and, you know, count it all joy, and James means we're never allowed to cry out to the Lord, and that means you have no faith.
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And it's like actually, look at the Psalms.
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Like, they're like, look at all the emotions.
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You know, how, how did you feel like you kind of shifted from maybe anger and questioning, like the temper tantrum like a kid- Mm-hmm into,"Okay, Lord, I'm starting to trust you again"?
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Yes.
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You know, I still struggle with that every day because I like answers.
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I, I think I was raised either in a culture or maybe it's my personality, but I thought val- the value was in the answers.
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Oh my gosh, me too.
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And so when I don't have answers...
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But what I've learned is the value is really in the question, because that's what keeps your faith alive.
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You know, the opposite of faith isn't doubt.
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The opposite of faith is just indifference.
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Just saying,"Eh, I'm done with it," and walking away.
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Yeah.
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And so as long as you're in there questioning and wrestling and wondering like, like David did in the Psalms, and even Jesus asked on the cross.
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As long as you're in there and asking those questions, you still have faith.
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You still believe He's out there, and you're reaching out to Him.
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Yeah,'cause otherwise, why would you even be still talking to Him?
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Right.
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I mean, when, when people were encouraging you to have faith, I feel like in my journey, people had kind of a pr- and they meant well, but like a prosperity gospel.
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Like,"Oh, you will heal," and, and,"Oh, you're lacking faith." It's like, actually, God does say no.
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God never healed Paul's thorn in the flesh.
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Like, there are countless examples of God saying no to godly desires in the Bible.
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So did your, I think, did your faith wrestle with that tension of I don't know and you're still struggling?
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I mean, right, you have not been healed, correct?
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Right.
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Right.
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And I think I would see it in other people where I'd see these good, godly people who never got an an- the answer that they wanted for physical healing.
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Yes.
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And I thought,"That can't make sense.
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It can't make sense that it depends on m- me and my prayers and my faith." And that's not to discount that God can't do anything He wants.
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Right.
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But at the same time, it has to be more than just me.
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It has to be bigger than that.
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And so, you know, I, that became a really big, thing for me is not only praying prayers of lament, which I had never done before, but also I got to a point where one of the techs at Cleveland Clinic who prayed with us every time, one time, uh, we went in there deep into the journey, and she shut the door, and she said,"Are we still praying for healing?" Wow.
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And I remember thinking,"Well, yeah." Yeah, exa- But, but at, I walked out of there and I thought, you know, at some point And my dad passed away from cancer, so I understand that at some point- Yeah you get to that point where I'm gonna leave this to God to finish this story.
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I'm not gonna spend those last moments desperately pleading for something that- Yeah likely won't happen, even though I know he could, and that doesn't take away from the fact that he could.
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But when we And I call that a prayer of relinquishment.
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I was relinquishing what I thought was the best end to the story- Oh to God's greater knowledge of what is the better end of the story.
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Absolutely.
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I mean, how do you view it when people tell you God knows what's best?
00:16:37.836 --> 00:16:45.948
It's like when people say that to those of us who are in grave suffering, what does that p- biblical principle Because it i- I mean, his ways are perfect and just.
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He is righteous in all he does.
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All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful.
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And so how do you view that idea and that tension with, well, then, why am I suffering?
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Is the answer just Isaiah 55,"His ways are higher than our ways"?
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Is that all we have to cling to?
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You know, that's one I still, I still wrestle with a lot.
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But for sure I've learned that God's way more interested in our character than in our physical healing.
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He's way more interested in that.
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And- He, he's gone to so many lengths throughout history to keep the conversation going with us.
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Yeah.
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You know, at any cost to him or to us.
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Yes.
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And so maybe he's trying to get our hearts.
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Maybe he's trying to get our attention.
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Maybe he's trying He's, he's laying the groundwork for things we can't even see.
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And, you know, one of the, one of the Bible verses I love is in Hebrews where it talks about all the faith heroes, and it lists them all out.
00:17:45.231 --> 00:17:45.617
Yeah.
00:17:45.692 --> 00:17:57.186
And then it says something that we don't like to read that says,"All of these people were living by faith when they died, but they did not receive the things promised." Oh, I love that verse.
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Yeah.
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That's one of mine, too.
00:17:59.384 --> 00:18:01.760
And, and you're like, well, there you go.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:08.950
You know, I know there's promises, and he has, he will fulfill them because that's his nature, but it might not be in my lifetime.
00:18:08.955 --> 00:18:08.965
Yeah.
00:18:09.036 --> 00:18:14.799
I might be suffering for something that will happen in the next generation or generations to come.
00:18:15.474 --> 00:18:15.996
Wow.
00:18:16.054 --> 00:18:17.384
A- a- absolutely.
00:18:17.401 --> 00:18:26.161
Abs- I mean, my husband's legacy, he died of cancer one year after we got married, and his legacy was always preaching from the pulpit that there- God has a purpose.
00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:30.146
Even if we can't see it on this side of eternity, we will see it on the other side.
00:18:30.621 --> 00:18:39.563
And, I mean, d- I wanna ask, did you ever question God like,"Why me?" Like, why is this the way that you think I will best conform to Christ?
00:18:39.563 --> 00:18:43.330
Like, if this is all about character, Romans 8:29, we're conforming to Christ.
00:18:43.688 --> 00:18:49.750
Like, why do I need such a tough iron rod, Lord, compared to, you know, the sprinkles of suffering?
00:18:49.798 --> 00:18:52.583
Like, in terms of the comparison with other believers.
00:18:52.583 --> 00:18:54.307
Does'Cause I really struggled with that.
00:18:55.008 --> 00:18:55.576
Yes.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:03.587
And I, I think one of the things that I don't know, that I wrestled with, and it's actually a chapter in the book called Size of Loss.
00:19:03.635 --> 00:19:14.682
And- It's, you know, some people would even say to me after my diagnosis, they'd, they'd have something bad happen in their life, and they'd be like,"Oh, but I don't wanna bother with y- you with that.
00:19:14.694 --> 00:19:27.842
You know, you have so much more, and yours is so much worse." And I thought, I don't think God cares, you know, about how big my suffering is or someone else's suffering because we all sort of own all of that suffering.
00:19:27.854 --> 00:19:28.153
You know?
00:19:28.154 --> 00:19:28.169
Mm.
00:19:28.169 --> 00:19:32.951
Jesus brought us into one story, and all of that suffering flows into this one river.
00:19:33.404 --> 00:19:43.183
You know, whether we have a school shooting and we don't know any, any of the victims, or we have a tsunami somewhere, all of that suffering becomes part of everyone's suffering.
00:19:43.227 --> 00:19:45.765
And Jesus came to take it all away.
00:19:45.778 --> 00:20:00.096
And so I don't think anybody's suffering is too small to bring to God, but I also don't think that any of us are gonna bear something that is bigger than what God knows that with Him we can bear.
00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:06.666
So it's, it's kind of, it's almost a little bit like a I trust you enough with this part of my story.
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:12.633
So I trust that you think I need this very severe, you know, whatever, this valley.
00:20:12.987 --> 00:20:14.464
It's just, it's kind of a mystery.
00:20:14.465 --> 00:20:17.115
We don't know why some people cancer, other people chronic illness.
00:20:17.115 --> 00:20:18.123
We really don't know.
00:20:18.124 --> 00:20:20.685
I mean, would that reflect your...
00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:21.060
Yeah.
00:20:21.443 --> 00:20:21.747
Yeah.
00:20:21.747 --> 00:20:29.019
And, and I, I still struggle with whether God allows it- Oh or whether He causes it- Right or whether He just knows about it.
00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:29.031
Yeah.
00:20:29.094 --> 00:20:36.387
And I don't know all of that, and we won't know this side of eternity how that works because we couldn't handle it if we did know, so.
00:20:36.826 --> 00:20:41.194
Yeah, I mean, Job is a mystery because it's, you know, Satan asks to...
00:20:41.246 --> 00:20:45.453
Or, well, actually, God says,"Have you considered my servant Job?" Right.
00:20:45.734 --> 00:20:47.083
And it's like some of us are kind of offended.
00:20:47.083 --> 00:20:49.830
Like,"Lord, why are you putting this man, this poor, righteous man- Throw that...
00:20:50.824 --> 00:20:51.732
It's a mystery.
00:20:51.737 --> 00:20:57.394
Like, I'm a big, you know, God sovereignty person, if you will, in terms of everything that happens is ultimately God's will.
00:20:57.409 --> 00:20:59.471
Now, does that mean He causes it or allows it?
00:20:59.471 --> 00:21:00.363
You know, it's murky.
00:21:00.365 --> 00:21:03.314
But ultimately, everything gets filtered through His hands.
00:21:03.671 --> 00:21:16.576
I wanna ask you what assumptions had to die, about God had to die in your mind to get you to this place where you are now stronger in your faith or able to even have faith despite your grave suffering?
00:21:17.003 --> 00:21:17.461
Mm-hmm.
00:21:18.001 --> 00:21:28.088
I think the biggest thing is what we've already talked about, is that questions were a bad thing, or that questions signal weakness, or questions signal that you're walking away from God.
00:21:28.088 --> 00:21:37.349
I think those questions were what not only kept me in the game, but they also made my faith stronger because I was able to ask that question.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.736
And I didn't have to deny that I had it.
00:21:39.740 --> 00:21:40.977
God knew I had it.
00:21:41.226 --> 00:21:41.252
Yeah.
00:21:41.252 --> 00:21:48.664
But when I'm opening up with Him about it, nothing in my life is off limits with Him when I can open up with everything.
00:21:49.743 --> 00:21:55.163
Did you feel like God grieved with you and still grieves with you in some sense?
00:21:55.288 --> 00:22:15.343
Like, has He spoken into your pain in an intimate way, like showing you His presence or- You know, there's been so many times I told you about the, the woman at Cleveland Clinic that prayed with us, and there's been so many times like that where these people would just appear out of nowhere- and, and pray.
00:22:15.368 --> 00:22:36.382
And the strange thing is, um, when I was first diagnosed, they set up a prayer chain, and people signed up to pray around the clock, and they'd set the timer on their iPhones, you know, and it'd pop up and say,"Pray for me." And I had a lady just last week send a screenshot and she said,"Still praying." And it, it was, uh, popped up and it said,"Pray for Laurie Ann." Aw.
00:22:36.395 --> 00:22:39.431
And 10 years in, she's still praying at her time.
00:22:39.744 --> 00:22:40.241
Wow.
00:22:40.662 --> 00:22:46.115
And I thought, you know, that's, that's God speaking to me that I haven't forgotten you.
00:22:46.296 --> 00:22:49.648
I have not forgotten you, even in the length of the time that you've been.
00:22:49.655 --> 00:23:02.551
But one of the things I love to do, and my husband and I have done this when we've taught Bible classes before, is we have people draw a line of their life from birth to current day, just a line.
00:23:02.792 --> 00:23:10.823
And go And have them go up when they felt closest to God and go down with the line when they felt God was far away from them.
00:23:11.297 --> 00:23:24.913
And what we found- every time was that someone would be drawing their line, and they'd say,"Oh, at seven years old my dad died." And you'd see them go closer to God, and then they'd come down to baseline again.
00:23:24.913 --> 00:23:30.272
And then, you know,"When I was 25 I got an autoimmune disease," and up, up to God again.
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:30.675
Wow.
00:23:30.696 --> 00:23:36.871
And at the hardest times of their life when they should've been falling apart, God was pulling them close.
00:23:37.459 --> 00:23:46.084
And I just love that visual because He knows all those trips we're gonna take- Yeah and He's pulling us toward himself every time.
00:23:46.345 --> 00:23:47.583
That is so beautiful.
00:23:47.584 --> 00:23:58.912
It's like s- hearkens to Psalm 34 which says,"The Lord is near to the broken-hearted." Sometimes I wonder, like, Lord, you know, and I'm not blaming God, I'm just asking, like, Lord, why can't you draw near to us when we're happy?
00:23:58.913 --> 00:24:07.701
And- and I think the problem is more maybe with us, like our God meter isn't tuned to God when everything's going well and hunky-dory,'cause we're so sinful and prideful.
00:24:07.702 --> 00:24:10.683
Like, when we're suffering, we tend to turn to God more.
00:24:10.683 --> 00:24:12.323
Maybe that's what it's about.
00:24:12.757 --> 00:24:13.088
Yeah.
00:24:13.088 --> 00:24:18.901
And so He's like,"Okay, now I'm ready to, you know, tune in now that you're tuned in to me." Right.
00:24:19.372 --> 00:24:19.971
Yes.
00:24:20.499 --> 00:24:24.144
Did you, did you ever feel like the Lord was silent?
00:24:24.156 --> 00:24:24.845
Like, just...
00:24:24.903 --> 00:24:30.482
I mean, obviously He wasn't answering your prayers the way you wanted, and is that kind of the silence you felt?
00:24:31.397 --> 00:24:35.686
You know, I did, and I, I, I remember just wanting to...
00:24:36.484 --> 00:24:47.655
And I told my husband,"I don't even know if I wanna be healed, but I just wanna know that He's in control of what's going on." And I didn't know how I needed to know that, but I just needed to know that He had it.
00:24:47.694 --> 00:24:48.076
You know?
00:24:48.076 --> 00:24:48.086
Yeah.
00:24:48.086 --> 00:24:51.489
That this wasn't all just this free fall that I was in.
00:24:51.632 --> 00:24:51.914
Yeah.
00:24:51.935 --> 00:24:53.130
That He, He had it.
00:24:53.156 --> 00:25:01.208
And one of our friends was having lunch with my husband early on and said,"God has to do something about this.
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.838
There's too many people praying." Yeah.
00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:11.039
And, and then when it didn't happen, you know, you had to sort of gr- grapple with, does He not care?
00:25:11.092 --> 00:25:13.343
Or- Yeah what's going on?
00:25:13.362 --> 00:25:24.730
And I think other people's faith kinda stepped in, strange as that sounds, and, and helped me hang on in those times where I'm like,"I don't know if I see Him." Yeah.
00:25:24.748 --> 00:25:30.636
But when I knew that they saw Him, and I knew that they were still praying, I could still hang on.
00:25:30.642 --> 00:25:30.652
Yeah.
00:25:30.708 --> 00:25:32.326
And that gave me the faith to do it.
00:25:32.561 --> 00:25:33.249
That's beautiful.
00:25:33.255 --> 00:25:35.028
That's why we're the body of Christ, right?
00:25:35.028 --> 00:25:36.493
Like, the members hold each other up.
00:25:36.509 --> 00:25:38.291
I felt that so much in my suffering.
00:25:38.292 --> 00:25:44.634
And to answer your question, like, so, like, thousands of Armenians were praying for my husband, you know, not to die of cancer.
00:25:44.636 --> 00:25:48.932
And yet, you know, after his three-year battle, the Lord said no and took him home.
00:25:48.932 --> 00:25:53.354
And so I don't think there's this correlation, like, the more prayers, the more the Lord answers.
00:25:53.354 --> 00:25:58.087
Like, this- there's so many things in this world that just don't make sense if that were true.
00:25:58.931 --> 00:26:09.883
Um, and so anyway, I-- let me move on because I wanna ask you, like, how have you lived faithfully when your prayers have gone unanswered?
00:26:09.900 --> 00:26:18.784
A-and you talked a little bit about, okay, the anger and the bidden-bitterness and whatever, but, like, what do you think is the biggest component of you still being able to cling on?
00:26:18.794 --> 00:26:23.645
Like, are there specific Bible verses, or has God comforted you in surprising ways?
00:26:24.836 --> 00:26:27.913
You know, I think the biggest thing is just don't give up.
00:26:27.931 --> 00:26:49.002
Don't, be like,"I give up and I, I don't care anymore." And for me, and, and it was a hard time because I remember when I first got the diagnosis, I thought,"I'm gonna read scripture." And I've heard a lot of people validate this, but when I was first diagnosed and really hurting, scripture kinda felt almost too rich.
00:26:49.094 --> 00:26:54.281
It was too, I don't know, it just felt disingenuous for me to read that scripture.
00:26:54.281 --> 00:26:56.101
And so I would back away from it.
00:26:56.601 --> 00:26:56.980
Yeah.
00:26:57.003 --> 00:27:00.369
But, but I had to still keep connected to him.
00:27:00.375 --> 00:27:07.261
And so that's when I started reading books from trusted Christian authors or listening to Christian podcasts.
00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:07.842
Yeah.
00:27:07.842 --> 00:27:19.739
Or, you know, one of the strange ones that's really spoke to me when nothing else would is contemporary Christian music could get in there in my heart when nothing else could.
00:27:20.226 --> 00:27:27.270
And those were the things that they were just a thread that I was hanging on, and you couldn't do that forever.
00:27:27.868 --> 00:27:31.537
But in that moment, I found that thread and I hung on.
00:27:31.579 --> 00:27:33.472
And I think that made all the difference.
00:27:34.156 --> 00:27:35.164
Absolutely.
00:27:35.376 --> 00:27:47.371
I mean, were there any verses that when you read the Bible, it sort of, you said,"Hey Lord, that's not true." Like, you know, where it says,"No good thing do you withhold." Well, what about my healing?
00:27:47.378 --> 00:27:55.722
Or what about in James where it says,"If you anoint the sick person with oil, they will rise up." You know,'cause in my fight I struggled'cause I'm an analytical person like you.
00:27:55.723 --> 00:27:56.769
I wanted the answers.
00:27:56.769 --> 00:28:00.219
Like, well, if this says that you're gonna heal me, Lord, why am I not healing?
00:28:00.219 --> 00:28:04.992
And so I'm just curious if you wrestled with scripture in that way, in the way I did.
00:28:05.001 --> 00:28:05.011
Yes.
00:28:05.308 --> 00:28:06.721
And if the Lord met you there.
00:28:07.138 --> 00:28:07.711
Right.
00:28:07.990 --> 00:28:11.598
One of them that got me was in Matthew 10.
00:28:11.617 --> 00:28:16.085
It says,"Are not two sparrows worth, sold for a penny?
00:28:16.292 --> 00:28:24.454
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care." And I thought,"Well, I feel like I hit the ground." Mm.
00:28:24.473 --> 00:28:33.411
And, but what I've learned is that the hard part of applying that scripture to our everyday life is that the sparrow still falls.
00:28:34.401 --> 00:28:38.309
It's within the Father's care, but the sparrow still falls to the ground.
00:28:38.734 --> 00:28:38.750
Mm-hmm.
00:28:38.750 --> 00:28:44.270
And what I've learned is that Jesus didn't come to end suffering.
00:28:44.810 --> 00:28:45.173
Yeah.
00:28:45.294 --> 00:28:52.830
Instead, God sent a sufferer in the form of Jesus, and Jesus sort of fell on the sword of suffering for all of us.
00:28:53.178 --> 00:28:53.201
Yeah.
00:28:53.201 --> 00:29:01.217
Not so we wouldn't have to suffer, but so that he could enter into suffering with us and help us get to the other side of suffering.
00:29:02.551 --> 00:29:02.990
Yeah.
00:29:03.653 --> 00:29:05.410
What, I mean, w- can you expand on that?
00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:10.375
Like, what else has your suffering taught you about God's character that maybe you didn't know before?
00:29:10.384 --> 00:29:13.388
Is it that He's intimate with us, He walks into it with us?
00:29:13.390 --> 00:29:15.940
Like, what have you learned about God that surprised you?
00:29:16.792 --> 00:29:21.502
Yes, I think one of them is that I had this sort of transactional faith.
00:29:21.510 --> 00:29:26.041
Like, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, and now, God, you're supposed to do what you're supposed to do.
00:29:26.046 --> 00:29:26.444
Yeah, me too.
00:29:26.444 --> 00:29:29.778
And when this happened, it was like, well, somebody dropped the ball.
00:29:30.513 --> 00:29:33.393
But when I realized that He's, you know...
00:29:34.371 --> 00:29:48.359
And, and this is a little bit controversial, but I don't think that prayer was actually meant to stop our bodies from being human Oh And, and sometimes we treat it that way.
00:29:48.363 --> 00:29:55.502
Like, if we could just use this, if we could leverage this prayer enough, then we can make that body superhuman.
00:29:55.974 --> 00:29:56.262
Right.
00:29:56.266 --> 00:30:00.063
And, and I don't think He ever meant for that to be the case.
00:30:00.063 --> 00:30:03.268
I think He meant for prayer to be an avenue to Him.
00:30:04.179 --> 00:30:06.528
And, and that's where our character comes in.
00:30:06.782 --> 00:30:13.582
If we're using prayer as leverage to get Him to do something- Yeah that's not really what it was ever meant to be.
00:30:13.595 --> 00:30:18.923
And, and that's us misusing it, and that's not God not fulfilling His promises.
00:30:18.923 --> 00:30:21.318
And, and that was a big leap for me.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:31.201
How do you view 2 Corinthians 12:9 where Paul says, like,"My power," or my or where the Lord says,"My power is made," you know,"perfect in your weakness"?
00:30:31.226 --> 00:30:36.232
Like, you know, so Paul, Paul boasts in his weakness through his own chronic thorn in the flesh.
00:30:36.237 --> 00:30:40.661
Like, do you, do you feel like God's power has been made complete?
00:30:40.685 --> 00:30:46.339
It's kind of a vague concept, but, like, how do you view that verse in light of your own affliction?
00:30:47.113 --> 00:30:47.375
Yeah.
00:30:47.385 --> 00:30:52.198
One of the things that I see that manifesting in my life is I...
00:30:52.234 --> 00:31:00.236
You know, I wrote this book, but i- in all truth, I would not have taken the time to write it in a safer, healthier life.
00:31:00.711 --> 00:31:01.022
Yep.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:13.511
And I feel like God had some things that, you know, He wanted to be spoken or He wanted to be shared, and I don't think I would've ever done it if my life hadn't been derailed.
00:31:13.525 --> 00:31:22.440
And so- Yeah in that way, His Word is made more perfect than it would've been if I had tried to carry that word in another way.
00:31:22.992 --> 00:31:23.384
Wow.
00:31:23.412 --> 00:31:24.915
Because you have the credibility.
00:31:24.915 --> 00:31:26.231
You have gone through suffering.
00:31:26.238 --> 00:31:36.259
You've gotten your own cross, and so you can kinda speak from this place of authenticity, I think, when you're expounding on these hard biblical truths of what is suffering about and why does God allow it.
00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:38.530
And does that make sense, Mi- yeah.
00:31:38.558 --> 00:31:39.107
Yes.
00:31:39.133 --> 00:31:49.498
And I, I, I love the idea that, you know, we can have compassion for other people in their suffering, because the word compassion literally means shared suffering.
00:31:49.819 --> 00:31:50.361
Wow.
00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:50.711
Oh, wow.
00:31:50.740 --> 00:32:05.433
And so when we have suffering and we can share that with other people, then they see that reflection in their life and they're like,"Oh, we can, you know, we can walk this together." And that sharing is, is part of the wisdom we gain through suffering.
00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:07.691
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:08.336 --> 00:32:10.327
How has God sustained you?
00:32:10.328 --> 00:32:13.913
Would you say that, you know, it is true that the Lord sustains us?
00:32:13.913 --> 00:32:17.944
You know, I think there's a verse in the Psalms that says the Lord sustains him on his sickbed.
00:32:18.270 --> 00:32:24.936
In other words, have you seen God, you know, sustain you through all the ups and downs, with all the medical crises?
00:32:24.939 --> 00:32:30.865
Would you say that He's given strength to your body even when you're weak, or how does the sustaining play out?
00:32:31.452 --> 00:32:31.916
Yeah.
00:32:32.068 --> 00:32:38.535
There's been so many times physically that He's stepped in and one of them was during my stroke.
00:32:38.578 --> 00:32:57.842
I, I was at home alone when I had the stroke and It was so weird because I, I was getting ready for a doctor's appointment for something completely unrelated, and I remember thinking I was down on the floor trying to get my shoes on, and I thought,"I can't get up.
00:32:57.896 --> 00:33:01.105
I've forgotten how to get up from the floor." Oh, my God.
00:33:01.105 --> 00:33:01.756
That's what I thought.
00:33:01.791 --> 00:33:12.886
I thought,"I've gotten to that, that place in my I'm old enough that I don't remember how to get up." And I crawled around and I tried to stand up, and I sort of fell into things a few times.
00:33:12.913 --> 00:33:22.057
And then thankfully, my husband had been trying to get ahold of me, and for some reason my Apple Watch wouldn't call 911 or call my husband.
00:33:22.060 --> 00:33:25.480
And so he sensed that something was wrong and came home.
00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:33.236
But because he came home at that moment and immediately called 911 and said,"My wife's had a stroke," and they came.
00:33:33.632 --> 00:33:39.920
They were able to go in through a vein and grab those blood clots and pull them out.
00:33:39.922 --> 00:33:39.932
Oh.
00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:46.737
And when they did, I got, I got my whole left side of my face back.
00:33:46.777 --> 00:33:51.068
I got my whole I could move my left side of my body again.
00:33:52.010 --> 00:34:05.090
And the thing is, there's a time limit in there where if w- if my husband hadn't come home, or he hadn't been checking on me, or he didn't recognize it as a stroke, they wouldn't have been able to do that.
00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:10.342
And- Wow so many times like that when I'm like, wow, you know?
00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:14.496
So does that strengthen your faith that, okay, God's timing.
00:34:14.507 --> 00:34:21.507
In other words, the day he wants me to leave this earth, it's gonna happen, because I'm seeing all these other miracles where, all right, it's not time yet.
00:34:21.844 --> 00:34:26.432
Y- you know, like, God must know what he's doing because otherwise you just can't explain that.
00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:28.309
It That's exactly right.
00:34:28.335 --> 00:34:34.655
Because, you know, I have I recently had two grand babies, and I don't, I'm not ready to go.
00:34:34.655 --> 00:34:35.501
I don't wanna go.
00:34:35.521 --> 00:34:37.818
But, but you're right, exactly.
00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:48.467
When, when you see the times where it sort of fell in your favor, you have to say,"Well, when it doesn't fall in my favor, I still have to trust him that he knows what he's doing." Yeah.
00:34:48.534 --> 00:34:49.507
It's Oh, my gosh.
00:34:49.813 --> 00:34:53.331
On that note, does eternity feel more palatable to you?
00:34:53.336 --> 00:34:55.331
I mean, I'm guessing absolutely.
00:34:55.331 --> 00:35:04.960
I mean, me going through my husband's cancer and all the stuff I've gone through, like, it just But, I mean, has God taught you anything specifically about eternity in your situation?
00:35:04.965 --> 00:35:04.976
Yeah.
00:35:05.547 --> 00:35:16.152
I love that question because we talked about this recently in a Bible class, and I think the thing that I'm looking most forward to is to be released from the concept of time.
00:35:16.648 --> 00:35:16.822
Oh.
00:35:16.838 --> 00:35:22.532
Because every pain point in my life is a c- is a product of time.
00:35:22.936 --> 00:35:26.347
You know, my kids growing up, my parents growing old.
00:35:26.914 --> 00:35:26.940
Oh.
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:29.751
Chronic illness, regret.
00:35:30.070 --> 00:35:30.090
Right.
00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:30.628
Fear.
00:35:30.693 --> 00:35:32.547
It's all a product of time.
00:35:33.195 --> 00:35:36.702
And when we're in eternity, time can't hurt any of us anymore.
00:35:37.795 --> 00:35:45.067
And I'm so looking forward to that, and I wouldn't have thought of that outside of this time that I've had with chronic illness.
00:35:45.902 --> 00:35:46.429
Wow.
00:35:46.492 --> 00:35:49.739
That's a really I mean, I haven't thought about it.
00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:52.235
I mean, I know Randy Alcorn, he's one of my favorite pastors.
00:35:52.242 --> 00:35:54.932
He, he kinda is of the view, he writes on heaven.
00:35:54.934 --> 00:36:14.163
He says,"Well, there's gotta be time because the martyrs in Revelation are, like, you know, crying out to the Lord and'How long, how long?'" So it's, it's sort of conf- I'm not saying you're wrong on there's no time in heaven, but that whole concept blows my mind'cause it's like, okay, what is this even gonna look like, like- Right with the Lord a day is like 1,000 or y- you know the verse I'm saying.
00:36:14.291 --> 00:36:14.827
Yes.
00:36:14.860 --> 00:36:15.481
Yes.
00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:16.208
Yes.
00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:26.264
And I think part of that too, that time thing, and me feeling so pulled into, you know, how the timing is is part of that struggle I've had with control all my life.
00:36:26.264 --> 00:36:30.240
Like- Oh I need to know the answer, and I wanna know the plan, and I wanna know the time.
00:36:30.527 --> 00:36:30.833
Yeah.
00:36:30.835 --> 00:36:35.432
And to be released from all that is such, such something to look forward to.
00:36:36.195 --> 00:36:37.186
Absolutely.
00:36:37.601 --> 00:36:43.414
Is there a specific Bible, Bible verse that's your favorite verse that you have clung to through this?
00:36:44.193 --> 00:36:44.583
Yes.
00:36:44.585 --> 00:36:49.150
Well, Hebrews 11:13 about the saints not receiving the things promised.
00:36:49.394 --> 00:36:49.653
Yes.
00:36:49.668 --> 00:36:57.563
But sort of the, the prequel of that verse that I, I stumbled onto way early after my diagnosis.
00:36:57.786 --> 00:36:59.130
I went into a Bible class.
00:36:59.130 --> 00:37:01.570
And again, one of those things where you just can't explain.
00:37:01.844 --> 00:37:03.793
I went into the wrong Bible class.
00:37:04.155 --> 00:37:18.369
And you know when you go in and you're like,"Whoops, I shouldn't be in here," but you just sit down anyway, and you're just kinda like,"I'll pretend like I'm supposed to be here." And they had been studying, you know, John 13, and so I just opened my Bible and go right along.
00:37:18.681 --> 00:37:23.018
And that day they were looking at John 13:7.
00:37:23.172 --> 00:37:34.018
And this is where Jesus was washing the disciples' feet, and he said,"You do not understand now what I'm doing, but later you will understand." Oh.
00:37:34.059 --> 00:37:37.048
And I, I have been back to that so many times.
00:37:37.429 --> 00:37:45.402
But then when you pair that with Hebrews 11:13 that we talked about earlier, we may not understand this side of eternity.
00:37:46.478 --> 00:37:48.255
It may be after we die.
00:37:48.686 --> 00:37:53.860
But there will be a reason for what we're going through, and God has it under control.
00:37:53.860 --> 00:37:58.621
And that one is That one feels very personal to me.
00:37:59.994 --> 00:38:10.375
I mean, that, I, I just read that verse, like, a while ago, and I remember thinking like,"Oh, this is really interesting." I had never thought about it, and I was thinking the same thing you were.
00:38:10.375 --> 00:38:14.028
So that is really-- It's like when Paul-- A precious promise.
00:38:14.030 --> 00:38:16.842
It's like when Paul said,"Then I will know fully," right?
00:38:16.842 --> 00:38:17.121
The verse.
00:38:17.128 --> 00:38:17.349
Yes.
00:38:17.382 --> 00:38:19.317
I can't remember if it's Philippians or Corinthians.
00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:24.445
But that is really beautiful, and--'Cause there's been so many times where I've cried out to God,"Why?
00:38:24.460 --> 00:38:24.715
Why?
00:38:24.731 --> 00:38:35.226
Why?" And He always gives me back the same verse, which is Proverbs 3:5,"Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." It's like,"Laura, Laurie Ann, some things you just aren't gonna get.
00:38:35.228 --> 00:38:37.737
The secret things belong to the Lord." Deuteronomy, you know?
00:38:37.737 --> 00:38:42.195
And so you and I have a similar, you know-- We wrestle with the Lord.
00:38:42.197 --> 00:38:43.603
I think He honors that.
00:38:43.820 --> 00:38:46.820
this podcast is all about how God, you know, singing through fire.
00:38:46.827 --> 00:38:49.025
Somehow God calls us to rejoice in suffering.
00:38:49.034 --> 00:38:50.782
Paul and Silas are singing in prison.
00:38:51.132 --> 00:38:52.811
You know, we are called to rejoice.
00:38:52.813 --> 00:38:53.623
Count it all joy.
00:38:53.632 --> 00:38:58.688
H- As counterintuitive and painful as it is, has the Lord equipped you to have joy?
00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:01.585
Has he surprised you with joy th- the last 10 years?
00:39:03.219 --> 00:39:04.418
So many times.
00:39:04.442 --> 00:39:10.724
And, you know, I think the, almost the precursor to joy was that I had that peace.
00:39:10.784 --> 00:39:21.670
Like, once I got to a place of peace, and I could relax and kinda let my guard down a little bit, I could see the joy more clearly, and I could recognize it and grab onto it.
00:39:21.681 --> 00:39:24.907
And I think that was the thing that I first got was peace.
00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:30.634
And once I got that peace and felt it, then I could see the joy and grasp onto it.
00:39:30.646 --> 00:39:41.853
And so many times, whether it was being around to see my kids graduate from high school when they said you won't be, or, you know, having these grandkids that they said wouldn't h- ever happen.
00:39:41.878 --> 00:39:45.351
And there's just so much joy in that.
00:39:45.364 --> 00:40:00.244
And, you know, even though that some people, when they pray, they don't get those specific moments of joy, I think if you look and you fall into that peace and, and accept that peace, you'll find bits of your own joy in other ways in your story.
00:40:00.916 --> 00:40:09.873
What would you say to the person out there who's just in total despair, maybe the shock of an initial diagnosis or divorce or whatever they're walking through that the Lord has allowed.
00:40:09.893 --> 00:40:10.791
Would you say...
00:40:11.226 --> 00:40:13.184
And they just cannot find that peace.
00:40:13.211 --> 00:40:15.469
They're just w- so close to despair.
00:40:15.471 --> 00:40:18.574
We've all been there, you know, if you've, you know, gone through grave suffering.
00:40:18.603 --> 00:40:19.949
Can you speak into that?
00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:24.280
Or any advice that you wish you had known about clinging to the Lord or...
00:40:25.456 --> 00:40:25.929
Yes.
00:40:25.931 --> 00:40:32.518
I think one of the things I would say is that just keep that conversation going, even if it feels like...
00:40:32.518 --> 00:40:41.927
You know, I think most of us, and we talked about this earlier, may have been raised in the, in the idea of if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all, right?
00:40:42.304 --> 00:40:42.639
Yeah.
00:40:42.646 --> 00:40:51.641
But sometimes when you're really suffering and you're reaching out to God, it might not feel nice, but it may feel desperate, and that's okay.
00:40:51.653 --> 00:40:52.846
He can handle that.
00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:59.396
You know, not disrespectful, but just honest, and just keep that conversation going.
00:41:00.099 --> 00:41:07.208
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00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:03.438
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00:42:03.528 --> 00:42:07.179
But in Christ, redemption is always awaiting us in eternity.
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:14.692
So let's keep singing through the fire together Actually, did you feel like the Lord ever called you to surrender your grief?
00:42:14.918 --> 00:42:21.170
In other words, like, not enough is enough, Laurie Ann, but sort of like, can you just trust me?
00:42:21.501 --> 00:42:24.561
You know, not stop the questions, but do, do you understand what I'm saying?
00:42:24.561 --> 00:42:27.693
Like, getting you to surrender so that you could get the peace.
00:42:27.922 --> 00:42:29.626
'Cause otherwise you can't get the peace.
00:42:29.646 --> 00:42:31.052
Without the surrender, there's no peace.
00:42:31.713 --> 00:42:31.978
Right.
00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:49.931
And I think that was part of that prayer of relinquishment that He called me into was that- You know, you have to stop pleading with me for what you think is the right answer to this situation, and leave it to me to, you know, trust me enough that I have this and that I have this answer.
00:42:49.931 --> 00:42:54.251
And once I could pray that prayer of relinquishment and say,"I'm giving it to you, God.
00:42:54.251 --> 00:43:03.630
What- however you choose to finish this story, that's your, that's yours," then that peace came, and then I was able to find that joy.
00:43:03.655 --> 00:43:19.409
And so I think that's what he was calling me into, was just laying that down and, and you know, whether you wanna call it trust or relinquishment, but it, I had to set aside what I wanted and say- Yeah"This is for your greater planned good.
00:43:19.427 --> 00:43:25.608
And whatever that greater planned good is, I wanna be part of it, and I don't know what my part is in it." Yeah.
00:43:25.664 --> 00:43:26.775
That's so beautiful.
00:43:26.784 --> 00:43:29.527
The greater planned good, the Romans 8:28.
00:43:29.527 --> 00:43:31.806
Like, you know, it might not just be about us.
00:43:31.809 --> 00:43:42.722
I think, uh, John Piper has this famous thing where he says,"God is doing 10,000 things, and you might only see three of them, or you might not even see any of them until eternity." And that's very comforting.
00:43:42.722 --> 00:43:44.518
It's like, it's not just about us.
00:43:44.536 --> 00:43:47.331
The Lord is working out s- you know, purposes of salvation.
00:43:47.331 --> 00:43:53.391
Look at Genesis 50:20, where you know, Joseph said what, what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good.
00:43:53.393 --> 00:43:57.197
So these biblical truths really do sustain us.
00:43:57.597 --> 00:44:05.021
What would you say is something that, that Christians get wrong about suffering that you hope that they can flip the script?
00:44:05.021 --> 00:44:09.326
Like for me, one thing that kinda bothers me is when people say,"Oh, it's a season.
00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:18.338
That's a season of suffering." But for me, it's like, with a chronic illness and like yours, I mean, for me, I think, well, no, for some of us, it's a lifelong cross, you know?
00:44:18.338 --> 00:44:19.922
I mean, it's been, for you it's been 10 years.
00:44:19.923 --> 00:44:20.949
For me, it's been eight years.
00:44:20.967 --> 00:44:22.992
Maybe it's not lifelong, but it could be.
00:44:23.445 --> 00:44:24.402
So how do you...
00:44:24.454 --> 00:44:30.543
A- are there any things that, about suffering that that you think Christians should change their view on?
00:44:31.632 --> 00:44:47.467
You know, I do, and I don't know if this is just Christians or not, but surely we can start there, is that I heard someone once say, you know, if you have what's considered to be an invisible illness- Yes in other words, heart disease is likely inv- is largely invisible.
00:44:47.721 --> 00:44:47.773
Yeah.
00:44:47.773 --> 00:44:50.449
So many things are invisible, and people don't see them.
00:44:51.052 --> 00:44:56.923
And people don't give others the benefit of the doubt, that if they say,"You know, I have this illness," right?
00:44:56.996 --> 00:45:01.898
"This is how I'm feeling.""Well, you look, you look great." And- Oh my gosh.
00:45:01.898 --> 00:45:03.257
That- I got that all the time.
00:45:03.268 --> 00:45:03.739
It's like- Yeah.
00:45:03.873 --> 00:45:04.831
"You look so good.
00:45:04.851 --> 00:45:15.123
But you look so good." And the, and even though that starts out sounding nice, because- Yeah you're trying to give a compliment, what you're saying is,"Can you prove to me that you're ill?
00:45:15.164 --> 00:45:17.056
Because I'm not- Yes seeing it." Exactly.
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:17.322
And I...
00:45:18.425 --> 00:45:19.190
And it was so...
00:45:19.467 --> 00:45:21.349
There was somebody, and I don't know who said this.
00:45:21.349 --> 00:45:22.536
This didn't come from me.
00:45:22.538 --> 00:45:31.802
But they said- Some people think when you have an invisible illness, you're pretending to be ill, but really you're pretending to be well.
00:45:31.849 --> 00:45:36.780
You're pretending to be well in this world- Oh, yes that's full of well people.
00:45:36.914 --> 00:45:38.423
And so I felt that.
00:45:38.463 --> 00:45:50.172
And so sometimes I think we ask for proof of something so that we can understand it instead of taking people's, you know- Just leaving them where they are Oh my gosh.
00:45:50.172 --> 00:45:51.402
Uh, Lori Anne, I feel like you're...
00:45:51.405 --> 00:45:55.494
And not in like a venting session because all our brothers and sisters in Christ mean well.
00:45:55.505 --> 00:46:02.266
They want to encourage you and get you out of the valley because they're reconciling why is God allowing this, and there must be a reason, it must be on Laura.
00:46:02.268 --> 00:46:06.235
Or not that they're blaming you, but I- you're just preaching to the choir.
00:46:06.235 --> 00:46:10.719
It helps to kind of speak to someone who's also felt a bit unseen in that sense.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:20.041
And again, people mean well, but I think the best way that sometimes people can help someone who's suffering is to just d- be like Christ.
00:46:20.041 --> 00:46:21.288
Mourn with those who mourn.
00:46:21.552 --> 00:46:23.836
You know, Jesus wept after Lazarus died.
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.983
He didn't go off on some theological rampage, you know?
00:46:27.003 --> 00:46:31.672
Like, and I, you know, I'm saying I think the people who help the most sometimes are those.
00:46:31.699 --> 00:46:35.981
Have you experienced that, like those who just comfort you by just sitting by you?
00:46:36.367 --> 00:46:37.244
Oh, for sure.
00:46:37.251 --> 00:46:44.409
Because, you know, none of us, if you think about it, none of us can tr- completely understand what someone else is going through, no matter what it is.
00:46:44.432 --> 00:46:59.731
But what we can do is just sit with them and, you know, even say,"I don't understand, and I'm sorry this is happening." But, and that's, it feels like it's not enough when you're the one offering that, but when you're the person getting it, it is enough.
00:46:59.751 --> 00:47:01.043
It feels like enough.
00:47:01.844 --> 00:47:03.090
Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:03.317 --> 00:47:05.545
So we, we're coming close to the end of our time.
00:47:05.550 --> 00:47:07.440
I just have two more questions.
00:47:07.797 --> 00:47:08.610
How would you say...
00:47:08.637 --> 00:47:09.813
So I read your book.
00:47:09.842 --> 00:47:10.692
It's amazing.
00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:12.048
Everyone should read it.
00:47:12.242 --> 00:47:17.297
There's so much personal testimony weaved in with devotional instruction for any suffering Christian.
00:47:17.876 --> 00:47:26.150
Would you say that that is the primary way in which the Lord has redeemed your suffering, or are there other, you know, buckets also?
00:47:26.188 --> 00:47:28.641
You know, how do you see His redemption playing out in your life?
00:47:29.443 --> 00:47:29.760
Yes.
00:47:29.784 --> 00:47:37.994
I mean, I think that was where it started, and once I started sharing it in written form, then it's, it's eked out.
00:47:38.007 --> 00:47:56.876
And now speaking to other people about it, and I'm It, and, you know, in doing that, it sounds like I'm helping them, but a lot of times other people are helping me maybe even more than that when I'm sharing because they're coming back, just like you're doing right now, and sharing with me your story, which is strengthening me.
00:47:56.878 --> 00:48:00.485
And I think those are the ways that He's redeeming it.
00:48:00.494 --> 00:48:06.489
And, and also just you know, in terms of legacy, what, what my kids are seeing.
00:48:06.516 --> 00:48:09.244
You know, how are they seeing that this is being handled?
00:48:09.253 --> 00:48:12.065
Or how, how am I journeying through this?
00:48:12.405 --> 00:48:14.856
And that's part of what He's doing as well.
00:48:15.237 --> 00:48:17.519
Oh, meaning as a witness to your children?
00:48:17.521 --> 00:48:23.661
Like,"Hey, when you guys go through your trials, look at how the Lord is sustaining me." It's a powerful testimony in that sense?
00:48:24.045 --> 00:48:24.601
Yes.
00:48:24.922 --> 00:48:25.773
Oh, I love it.
00:48:25.813 --> 00:48:27.059
I just absolutely love it.
00:48:27.378 --> 00:48:28.822
Uh, here's the last question.
00:48:28.905 --> 00:48:32.773
Uh, what is the one thing you want people to remember from this conversation?
00:48:32.775 --> 00:48:35.875
Like, it could be a verse or just some nugget of wisdom.
00:48:35.876 --> 00:48:37.804
Like, you have gone through so much, Laurie Ann.
00:48:37.804 --> 00:48:43.532
I cannot even imagine with the valleys and the deliverances, and then the back in the pit.
00:48:43.541 --> 00:48:47.362
I mean, you are like a modern-day Job to me, and it inspires me.
00:48:47.371 --> 00:48:47.818
And I...
00:48:48.164 --> 00:48:56.327
How, what is one piece of wisdom you can give your fellow believers just to take away from all of this or, or what you've learned?
00:48:56.818 --> 00:48:57.302
Mm-hmm.
00:48:57.981 --> 00:49:08.246
I think the main thing is to, to not put God in a box- Okay and to reach out to Him no matter where you are.
00:49:08.259 --> 00:49:15.867
I felt like I couldn't at some point reach out to Him because I was too, you know, I'm, I'm questioning too much, or I'm whatever.
00:49:16.375 --> 00:49:21.990
But as long as you're trying to keep communicating with Him, you're gonna be okay.
00:49:22.373 --> 00:49:32.369
And, and do whatever it takes, whether that's, you know, finding a, a church for sure finding other Christians, finding, um, things to read.
00:49:32.617 --> 00:49:38.101
And that way you can be prepared for whatever comes next in your, in your story.
00:49:39.150 --> 00:49:39.748
Absolutely.
00:49:39.748 --> 00:49:43.753
And we know that because of Christ's sacrifice, we know the story is never over.
00:49:43.771 --> 00:49:48.952
Even, you know, even for those tragedies where we don't see the result here, we know the story ends in eternity.
00:49:48.952 --> 00:49:52.217
The, the Lord is gonna just shock us and surprise us.
00:49:52.231 --> 00:49:54.021
I mean, I do believe that with all my heart.
00:49:54.021 --> 00:49:56.811
That's what the Lord kinda communicated to me after Matt died.
00:49:57.159 --> 00:49:59.016
The story is not over.
00:49:59.016 --> 00:50:01.550
And so thank you so much, Lorianne.
00:50:01.561 --> 00:50:03.929
I'm just so encouraged by your testimony.
00:50:03.943 --> 00:50:06.893
And, you know, thank you for joining us today, everyone else.
00:50:06.918 --> 00:50:11.036
And until next time, remember if you're suffering today, you're not forgotten.
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:13.643
This fire is not the end of your story.
00:50:13.730 --> 00:50:18.230
Be sure to hit subscribe because I upload content every week to help other sufferers.
00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:20.199
To God be the glory.
