OM DENNE EPISODE
Flock cameras and automated license plate readers are often sold as tools for finding stolen cars, wanted suspects, missing people, and serious threats. But what happens when that same infrastructure starts being used for everyday traffic enforcement, broader vehicle surveillance, or searchable location databases?
In this episode, Tom, Kevin, and Scott discuss a 404 Media report about police allegedly using a Flock camera image to issue a traffic ticket, why that story is a warning sign for ALPR mission creep, and how systems marketed for public safety can become general-purpose surveillance infrastructure. They also talk about citizen pushback, vendor substitution, police discretion, data retention, audit logs, racialized camera deployment, rideshare dashcam surveillance proposals, and new technology that could associate phones and other wireless devices with identifiable vehicles.
The core question is not whether stolen cars should be found or serious crimes should be investigated. The question is whether communities understand what they are approving when they install or renew ALPR systems — and whether policy promises like “we don’t use this for traffic enforcement” are actually enforceable.
** Links mentioned on the show **
404 Media: Police Used Flock to Give a Man a Traffic Ticket https://www.404media.co/police-used-flock-to-give-a-man-a-traffic-ticket/
EFF: Traffic Violation! License Plate Reader Mission Creep Is Already Here https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/03/traffic-violation-license-plate-reader-mission-creep-already-here
EFF: Victory! Flock Ends Rollout of Audio Distress Detection of Human Voices https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/07/victory-flock-ends-rollout-audio-distress-detection-human-voices
404 Media: Cops Used Flock to Track a Man Across State Lines to Create Pretext to Search His Car for Weed https://www.404media.co/cops-used-flock-to-track-a-man-across-state-lines-to-create-pretext-to-search-his-car-for-weed/
DeFlock https://deflock.org/
404 Media: Cities Are Ditching Flock, Immediately Replacing It With Axon License Plate Readers https://www.404media.co/cities-are-ditching-flock-immediately-replacing-it-with-axon-license-plate-readers/
404 Media: Flock Pitched a Plan To Turn Uber and Lyft Drivers Into Roaming Surveillance Vehicles https://www.404media.co/flock-pitched-a-plan-to-turn-uber-and-lyft-drivers-into-roaming-surveillance-vehicles/
The Conversation: New tech adds phone tracking to license plate readers https://theconversation.com/new-tech-adds-phone-tracking-to-license-plate-readers-associating-devices-with-identifiable-cars-288876
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VIS NOTER 🔗
UDSKRIFT 🔗
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Today on shared security, we're talking about flock cameras and automated license plate readers
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and how a system sold as a way to find stolen cars or serious suspects
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can quietly become everyday traffic enforcement and vehicle surveillance.
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Now the hook here is a recent story about police allegedly using a flock camera image to
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give a man a traffic ticket. Now that may sound minor compared with a serious crime investigation
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but that is exactly why it matters. Once communities install searchable camera networks the temptation
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is always to expand how they are used. So we'll look at how local camera networks can become
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regional or national surveillance tools, why policy promises like we don't use this for
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traffic enforcement can be fragile and what city residents and listeners should be asking
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before approving or renewing these systems in their own community. So joining me as always
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for this fun and exciting topic are my co-host Scott Wright and Kevin Tackett.
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Sorry for laughing like that. Right as we started I thought of the worst marketing slug possible
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for Scott's digital legacy stuff. Oh we're back on that again.
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Why because I'm fascinated by this digital legacy thing and I think it's awesome you're doing it
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right but you know what we could do like right in the middle of this episode we could say
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well you know the flock cameras that keep all this data and what happens that data
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when after you're dead let's ask Scott about your oh okay I like it not a tangent perfect
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yeah this one is this one not the tangent but yes for me this is a really interesting topic
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and I want to be very clear I was actually just talking about Brittany enough this is I struggle
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with the entirety of flock cameras both from I hate you and want to burn your buildings down
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to a I love what you're doing and I think it's amazing that you're helping
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right like it's this spectrum of you know emotional whatever I'm very very very I think
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everybody everybody who pays attention to me which most of you shouldn't but um anybody who
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pays attention to me knows I hate when we we do something because it protects children or
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you know we're trying to make you safer because my those words trigger this opinion of mine
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that it's just like no you're not right like like the minute you say I'm doing this to protect
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people in my my gut even if you're you really are my gut is you're a liar you're talking
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people I hate the government whatever you know whatever the rule is this has been one of the
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sins where you know we have if I may right we have this collection of cameras that have been
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spread out across at least the United States my understanding is they have they are elsewhere
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and we talk about flock cameras but it's very important to realize there are other companies
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doing this like for example everybody's ranting about flock cameras and a number of cities
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my understanding is this is a number of cities and towns have canceled their flock contract and
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then immediately signed a contract with I think it's axon axon or or another company like
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them and it's like wait you same thing politicians do right we solved the problem no you didn't
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you moved the problem right that's it um the problem here is we've spread out these cameras
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we've given a collection of private companies the right to monitor and video the public
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and I hope you heard the quotes and italics around that because we've all heard the story about the
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flock cameras aren't private property they're facing schools whatever um and then we trust them
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does that sound like experience to you um uh I have an issue with this now I want to preface
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all this with in the US I'm not speaking about anywhere else in the US we have no expectation
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of privacy in punk yep and two everybody talks about well you got your cell phone tracking you
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yes it does I think personally I think those are the key issues this guy being misidentified
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is awful and horrible and a natural issue with this type of behavior but it is not the issue
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the issue is the system was there to make the mistake in my opinion does that make like it
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like yeah that makes yeah and and and just one thing to just clarify the the case when I
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opened the podcast with that what we're talking about is a the Georgia State Patrol used its flock
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cameras to issue a motorcyclist a ticket because the flock camera saw him with his cell phone in
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his left hand while he was riding his motorcycle and in the community they clearly state that
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flock cameras will not be used for track traffic enforcement so it is a now we're seeing flock
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cameras used for more than what they originally said that flock says they're used for which is
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finding somebody that just murdered somebody drive away from a crime scene or very serious
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things but it's important to note that flock cameras are advertised not for traffic enforcement
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track enforcement is a totally there are cameras licensed plate plate cameras for traffic enforcement
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however those are typically disclosed to the citizens right that there's a sign on it that says
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automatic license plate detection or whatever and so this is a and we're seeing now flock
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cameras used for well police are using it to stalk their ex-girlfriends they're using it for all
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these other things that it was not intended for and no one's really holding our local governments
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or flock accountable for these types of things so I think the core issue here is lying it's always
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lying of course I like I get the biggest kick out of when you talk out of both sides of your
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face right and and we see this both by politicians by police officers and flock themselves
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and bluntly also by the people who are anti-flock right we see the same thing with them but it's
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like hey the only thing that this does is track license plate numbers that's it oh by the way
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we found 2000 missing people in july alone that's a quote the flocks website yes yes well yeah
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and when you look at those 2000 people that were missing a very large number of them were
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not found because they detected their license plate and they weren't wearing a license plate on them so
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right they were laundering down the side of the road and and my answer is
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I I love the idea you know I know people with dementia I dealt with that type of thing
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um I love the idea of hey grandma wandered out of the house we don't know where she is
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and having some way to turn that on we talked about that with ring and protect the puppies
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right I love that idea but if you start the discussion with a lie I can't trust anything
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that comes out your mouth after that and if if what we were discussing was whether or not
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you stopped the shelves at Publix with tomatoes I'm less concerned but when what we're talking about is
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we're monitoring every single thing that happens around the country yeah but trust us we're really
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honest except those times we're not that's where I have an issue with this that and that's
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going to get into constitutionality uh the lack of warrants and all that kind of stuff
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I the focus for me is you lie to start the conversation there is no reason to me to
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continue the conversation with you because you're a liar so and I'm not calling the politicians
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liars I mean we all know you have to tell politicians lying is is their mouth moving but
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flock is lying at the start and then everybody after that is either lying because they know better
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or just too dumb to catch the mistake and they're repeating it both would be bad yeah and and just
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so everyone's aware like this is a major major issue right now in this country and in fact like
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and based on the media I'm seeing reported about flock cameras like people are actually going
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to their city councils they're going to the mayor because there are sites now and we'll link
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them in our in our show notes of you know the deflux sites right that will tell you in your city
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where these flock cameras are and what they're being used for and like there is a lot of
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citizen revolts type of activity happening and in fact there's there's some cases already that
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people are taking sledgehammers to flock cameras they're destroying them physically because this
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has become a major major privacy issue for people because it is beyond just looking for criminals
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it is now being used in I mean we've talked about ice potentially using flock cameras we've seen
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you know this is the slippery slope that we always like to talk about of how maybe good
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intentions start but then enter into you know very very dangerous territory of now they're
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recording everything and police are going to use it for whatever they want or police will
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abuse it to use for like stalking ex-girlfriend say on you know these very serious types of
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privacy concerns so yeah and it goes on and on and on in fact there was another story
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that came out that flock wants to start adding phone tracking cell phone tracking to flock cameras
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that pick up you know not only the cell phones that are near or in your car or your air pods or
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you know any wireless signal it was a bluetooth and yeah wide right right tune yeah yeah one of
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the things that I think is important and and I I feel like I have to say this I have a a friend
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I met him my wife is was a good family friend of hers and then after I'm married obviously
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and they're great people and and I love these people and and and one of them is a cop okay and
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so I post on facebook about hey you know flock is bad and here's why and blah blah blah
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and and and he came back and he he gave a very good response of hey what about all of this
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and this and this and this and this and you know I think you're absolutely right but here's the thing
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that I'm concerned about and I actually watched a video of some city council meeting and I can't
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remember which one it was I apologize and and the sheriff was up on the you know the the
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tables and everything else like that and he was pissed and I understand why he was so angry
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right and he ranted about the fact that he had bled for the city and he had you know 20 or 30 years as
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the sheriff and he gave up holidays and family time and all this kind of stuff and now he's being
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attacked now he was being attacked my understanding is is because he bought the cameras through his
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budget without getting approval I'm not gonna comment on that because I don't know enough
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about their processes and stuff like that to say yay nay whatever but I think it's important
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for us to understand that the vast majority of people on the law enforcement side that are using this
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are using it with the idea that they're doing good like this guy can say like look I'm just trying
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to keep you safe I'm just trying to help you right so you want to attack me cool so next week
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when your car's stolen don't ask me to find it when your mom wanders out don't ask me to look
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for her right like he he was running and it's he felt personally and and I get that right because in
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his mind he's not this ogre that is telling people and doing bad things he's just trying to find the
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tools that enable him to do what he thinks is his job and that's where I go back to the
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yeah cool did you have a warrant did you wrestling yeah you don't mean that we have to
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don't lose sight and a lot of the people protesting flock cameras have lost sight of this right don't
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lose sight of the fact that the majority of the people here and thinking they're doing the right
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thing they're just using those words we all we all worry about what we're just trying to protect
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should yes for protecting the children or protecting yes you
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mobile apps are just part of everyday life now banking healthcare shopping entertainment
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you name it and with that comes a lot of trust because users are putting their personal data
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directly into your app but here's the reality mobile apps are a growing target a recent survey
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found that 72 percent of organizations experienced a mobile app security incident last year and 92
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percent say threats are only increasing and the way attackers are going after apps is pretty
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sophisticated they're reverse engineering them modifying them and redistributing fake versions
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through phishing campaigns side loading and even third-party app stores so from a user's
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perspective everything can look completely legitimate that's why taking a proactive
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approach to mobile app security really matters you want to stay ahead of these threats not react
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after the damage is done this is where guard square comes in they provide advanced protection for both
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android and ios apps along with automated security testing to catch vulnerabilities early
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and real-time threat monitoring so you can actually see what's happening out there if your mobile
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app is critical to your business and it probably is this is something worth paying attention to
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you can learn more at guard square dot com that's guard square dot com and i think that is the big
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debate because i you know i struggle with this too because like you mentioned earlier kevin like
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there are you know i want criminals to be caught like i do like i am not pro criminal like i got
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it right but i see the benefit right of especially in situations and there have been
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you know lost kids and you know all these things found through flock cameras there but there's also
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given the power that this technology has and the surveillance implications there also a lot
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of negative things i mean this is the big debate and so where as a society where do we go with
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this from this point forward because flock keep in mind these guys are a business they
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are here to make as much money as possible and they will continue to add features and functions and
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more surveillance tech to these things because law enforcement is buying them and and we could
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talk about the debate of how these things are being purchased because that's a whole other
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story oftentimes police are using discretionary budgets and things that don't have to go
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through a city council for approval which is also very dangerous because that's
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happening in a lot of communities today is like police want these cameras but yet the community
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doesn't and then now there is a friction point of well we don't want these in our community and
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it's getting heated it's getting very very heated so you know we don't have the answers
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to this but i think it is an important debate that we should all have and i think one of
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the things of you know i encourage people to look on these maps to you know like these
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deflox sites to see where these cameras are and if this is something concerning to you you should
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speak up you should speak up to your local representative and your governments and express
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your concerns about this because it is going beyond the original intent and i think this is
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kind of a turning point that we're seeing right now at least in the united states but
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but uh scott what's your opinion from the canadian perspective i was just gonna say you
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know i've seen more city council videos on youtube of uh between this and and data center
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yeah debates right welcome to the united states how do you decide you know what's the priority here
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right um but i think you're you're right there's certainly there's the good side and the bad
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side i guess the question is is there a balance you know is are the the promise and intent of
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the good motivations uh just a thinly veiled cover for you know somebody like mr. burns
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sitting in the back room and envisioning all the things that they might do with the data from
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these cameras and it also makes me think you know in the uk they they don't have notifications i don't
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think at least according to the all the bbc detective shows you know every every 20 meters
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there's uh everywhere yards there's there's a ccdv camera that will get get the anpr
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and uh and the face of who's driving it right i don't know if that's real or or not but i
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certainly don't get notifications uh in that context so i i don't know for sure but i i think
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i suspect that the malicious or selfish motivations are far far away the the good intent of the
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people that are trying to do good things so we do have to kind of hold those companies
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and the governments that are procuring those things accountable i would also point out just to
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throw another wrench into this whole thing is the disparity of how the cameras are rolled out
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i've seen a significant number of maps including of my local area where and and i will acknowledge
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the fact that the three middle-aged white guys are the ones talking about this but the fact that
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largely minority areas are where the the the majority of the cameras are rolled out
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and i've heard the racist trope well yeah but that's where the crime is yeah you're right if you
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monitor one section that's where you're gonna find crime because you're monitoring it but
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that to me is another aspect that has to be addressed here is if we're gonna roll out
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something like this and like i said like you said earlier we're not pro criminal if we have a legitimate
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good way to monitor for things and help prevent crime um that's awesome but let's not just target
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certain areas of town right right yeah yeah it's a really really good point so yeah so finally if
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i may not finally finally haha we're done um the last thing i wanted and i reserve the
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right to throw other things out there you know flock did update a lot of stuff and and while they
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don't claim the matter of fact they outright say that it's not because of all the uproar it's funny
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that it happened right after the uproar they have updated their public stance on things including
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uh their default was 30 days of retention of data their default and their recommendation to
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departments is now seven which oh that's cool right uh they also threw out they they put out a
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number of updates about um hey uh we're not gonna let people just abuse this uh but of course the
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way they're preventing that is still rife with abuse it's kind of like one of the things they
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talked about is you know data accuracy and and their answer about data accuracy is like well
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look it's up to the cop to really look at the data and see if it's right and it's like but but it's a
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tech right like yeah yeah no i and then and then like their idea of transparency is hey we have a
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transparency site but but it's up to the local area to determine whether or not they they use it
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right it's like guys you're basically just distracting this this doesn't actually solve any
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of the actual problems we're talking about um and that was my shade is that was released this
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morning i know that we're this isn't released until next monday so we're recording on the 13th
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if that helps oh yeah is one that happens and i say that because it because it's important except
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i expect flock to update and edit this response because it it really is a crappy response yeah
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wanted to just add another quick note while we're talking i was looking on uh just doing a search
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to see about if there are any flock cameras here in Ottawa where i am and um found the
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in the Ottawa reddit um it was only a couple months ago somebody posted that it's actually
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not just Ottawa that they're they're not using it specifically they're they're considering it
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but they do already have cruiser mounted license plate recognition stuff so as you said alternative
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ways oh yeah but an interesting comment on the post thread was that in the in different cities
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hundreds of cops are being suspended like yeah Toronto Toronto has like a total population
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i think around 3 million people 600 cops suspended from misuse wow just just according to some unofficial
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numbers posted in reddit right that's a lot and three or four other uh smaller cities with a hundred
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or more cops suspended which is pretty shocking that's that's incredible um now one of the things
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you commented earlier tom a little bit was the the people that are going around and
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destroying flock cameras and i want to caution everybody that based on my read and conversations
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with people who are very very pro flock destruction of cameras are 100 not allowed even if you're
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protesting unless you're in boston and you throw the flock cameras into the harbor that is the
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only place you're allowed to to destroy uh things in protest is boston and you have to
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throw them in the harbor okay huzzah huzzah just like uh you know just like the tea party yeah yeah
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if it's taxation without representation or flock cameras video recording without something yeah
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something or another yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and as you know this is we're just parroting here so
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don't listen to whatever kevin's going on for too long yeah yeah i think that's a great time to end
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the podcast so uh so yeah we will keep updated on this story this is a large large large topic
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obviously and we have only really just scratched the surface but if you are interested in in
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learning more about what's happening with flock cameras we'll link everything in the show notes
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for you really good like the 404 media podcast is covering this pretty much almost every episode
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and definitely check those guys out there they're kind of the leading reporters of what's going on
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flock right now and and we'll we'll link some other resources like the deflock website which
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you definitely should check out but uh but yeah with that i think that's all we have time for
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and until next time stay safe stay secure and stay private thank you for listening or watching
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if you like this episode hit subscribe share it with your friends and colleagues or jump
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into our community at sharedsecurity.net slash supporter to keep the conversation going thanks
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again and we'll see you next week for another episode of shared security