Two ADHD-ers Walk into a Podcast Studio | Patrick Bonello - 1054

00:00:01
Speaker 1: She said it's now or never. I got fighting in my blood.
00:00:09
Speaker 2: I'm Tiff. This is Roll With The Punches. And we're turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go to court. And don't my friends at TestArt Family Lawyers know that. They offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in all areas of family law. de facto and same-sex couples, custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements and financial agreements, TestArt is in your corner. So reach out to Mark and the team at www.testartfamilylawyers.com.au. Now, everyone, I just said hi to today's guest, Patrick Bonello, who's fabulous. And our preamble before hitting record was, was too much for me to let you guys miss out on because you just– just tell them what you just said to me.
00:01:03
Speaker 1: Okay. I said I'm really excited because I'm just about to effectively receive a flamethrower. It's like every bloke's best dream coming true. Is it?
00:01:15
Speaker 2: It is. What is a flamethrower?
00:01:18
Speaker 1: Well, it's not a flamethrower. It's a weed killer that basically is a pole– and it's got a thing on the end of it, and you attach a gas cylinder, and you blast those buggers. Yeah. Well, it means you're not spraying chemicals, and you don't burn them. I don't think you char them. I'm going to have to YouTube how to use it. Oh, my God. And probably not on a windy day and not next to a wooden fence. So I'm kind of reading all the safety. Now, this is a way to get rid of weeds because I've got a lot of weeds at my place. I've got bricks. It's particularly for if you've got a brick– What? Why are you laughing at me? It's going to make me want a garden, isn't it? This is great.
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Speaker 2: This is where apartment living trumps everything.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I hate weeding, right, as opposed to reading, which I love. I hate weeding. And there's two options. You spray these noxious chemicals and wait for it to die and you hope that, like little Fritzie, my dog, doesn't kind of, you know, it's not going to affect him. But the other thing by manually pulling them out just is backbreaking, laborious work. And then something came up on my feed somewhere on Google or something. And it's, yeah, basically get a flamethrower and kill weeds this way. How good is that?
00:02:38
Speaker 2: That's fabulous. You make a good point, though. I was walking Luna home from the gym the other day along the footpath and there was a council worker spraying the weeds around the trees that are planted along the footpath. And as he did that, I obviously pulled her away and walked. And I thought, imagine if I walked here two minutes later and just let her have a sniff and have a lick. And then I thought, how often do you let your dog do that? And they're licking it. chemicals.
00:03:09
Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure that the stuff that the council would use would be safe for pets because they obviously know people.
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Speaker 2: Oh yes, because governments and councils in Victoria are so trustworthy. I put all my faith in them, but let's not go there because we're going to have a happy conversation today.
00:03:26
Speaker 1: Okay. Maybe it's just a naivete on my part and I like to live in my own little world with, you know, rainbows and fluffy things and yeah.
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Speaker 2: Maybe you can talk them into getting a flamethrower. I'm sure that's very safe for the council.
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Speaker 1: I would love it. I would love it. I could see Blake's burning their feet off, though. No, that's terrible. We probably have listeners who work for the council, and I'm sure they're very, very good at.
00:03:53
Speaker 2: Their jobs. You can pop your resume in when you finish this podcast. Yeah. You have been itching to have a particular conversation with me on the show. What's going on in your world, Mr. Bonello? Oh, wow.
00:04:08
Speaker 1: You know, isn't it funny? You know when you say, okay, I barrack for this team and the other person says, oh, I barrack for them as well. And suddenly it's like, oh, my God, how did I not know you barracked for this team? Isn't that great?
00:04:21
Speaker 2: Right?
00:04:22
Speaker 1: And sometimes you have those I barrack for those team moments in your life about other things that are not about football or cricket or polo or lacrosse. Or whatever it is that you happen to follow as a sport. And I reckon, would it have been maybe two months ago, I'd been seeing a counsellor, been seeing someone, and then I had lunch with a mate of mine, and he said, you know what? I have just had this amazing revelation in my life. I've been diagnosed with ADHD. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm kind of just waiting to go into medication. No, he'd just started medication. And he said it was amazing. It was like pinpoint accuracy, his focus. It helped him really kind of get back on track with a lot of things that were affecting him. I said, well, how did you come to that conclusion? And he started talking about, well, you know, it was this when I was growing up. And I'm sitting there and it's like, dude, have you got a checklist of what I do? It's like, well, what the hell? Like, have you been secretly filming me and have got cameras around my house? Because everything he was talking about resonated with me. And so we're sitting at a pub. Fritz is with me at the pub. We're sitting there having a great relaxing lunch on a Friday. So he said, well, I've got this questionnaire that I was originally given. He said, I'll send it to you. So he sends me the questionnaire. I'm sitting there, tick, tick, tick. I get 17 out of 18. Best score I've ever got on a test. Didn't have to study. Loved it. Thought it was great. It's like, how good is that? Anyway, so short of it is, I then went back to my counseling session and I said to the woman I've been chatting to, who's really lovely. I said, you know, I just did a little survey the other day. A mate of mine got diagnosed with ADHD. And I said, I got 17 out of 18. And she said to me, you know, it's funny you bring that up.
00:06:18
Speaker 2: She was like, I was trying to find a way to bring it up myself.
00:06:21
Speaker 1: As it happens, I was going to have a chat to you about that. So it did take me down a path and you've got, as you know, well, that's how it came to you because, you know, a few months later or a little time later, I booked in to see someone, paid a lot of money. And then it was a no-brainer. And I said at the end of this session, you know, you go to see a clinical psychologist you have to see eventually. And I did a telehealth consultation, paid it. rap load though. Anyway, but at the end of it, I said to her, so you're convinced, right? I said, you're absolutely convinced. There's that doubting Thomas in me. I guess, no, not even the doubting Thomas, the scientific mind. I want definitive proof. Is it a repeatable experiment that we can do? And she said, yeah, I'm pretty convinced. So that's been an interesting thing for me. And I think it's the little insights that suddenly resonate. I tell this funny story when I was a kid in primary school, because I tend to get distracted. Hello. And so picture this. In primary school, maybe about grade four or something at school, and the teacher says to me, I was a pretty good kid at school for the most part, pretty engaged. And she said, I need you to go to the other side of the school, pass on a message to this teacher. No problem. So I leave the classroom. I get to the other side of the school. And of course, there's been all these distractions along the way. And I've forgotten what I was supposed to tell the other teacher. So I go all the way back to the other side of the school. And I say, actually, I got there and forgot. She said, this, this, and this. Okay, no problem. So I leave again. I get to the other side of the school and I've forgotten again because like all those things happening in the meantime, you know, there's the sun shining, you know, there's probably possums crawling up trees and birds and clouds and, you know, and so I go back again and she said, you know what, how about you just mind the classroom and I'll go and convey the message. And, you know, And then when I worked as a journalist, so this is atypical. So when you find out about ADHD, and I've since done a six-week course in it as well, and it means that you've only got a limited executive function. What that means is, and this is the way I like to explain it to people, if I gave you a list of numbers that you could recall and reiterate back to me, at some point, you're going to have to write them down. Now, somebody who's neurotypical could probably remember maybe seven or eight of those numbers. But someone who is neurodivergent, who doesn't have the same executive function, may only remember three or four of them. Or if they've got other things going on, it limits the ability to be able to recall those or you suddenly get distracted. And that's something that was a real eye-opener for me. And even little things. When I worked as a journalist, I remember I was doing 4 a.m. starts. And in the newsroom, we had a switch that turned on faded lights or fluorescent and the fluorescent stayed off, too bright. And then, you know, and when I teach Tai Chi, I always put everything on dimmers and there was one student of mine who would walk in and turn the dimmers on full and it's like, no, you know, and again, having bright lights is actually something that can really affect people who've got ADHD. And I'm just getting all these amazing insights into things that are not so much habits, but just who you are and what you can tolerate, you know, the talking at a million miles an hour. But as a journalist, I trained myself not to. I trained myself to ask questions because that– and so my whole life, I've been putting all these things in place to deal with ADHD, not realizing that that's what I was doing. I mean, you've been through the same journey.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's funny. I reckon it's funny. Everyone's journey is so different and individual, and it's one of the areas, like many, that I have– changed my mind and perception and perspective of probably greatly along the way. But like I had my diagnosis a little over four years ago now, I think. And it was no surprise I went in there going, I know I've definitely got this thing, whatever. And I wasn't really, like prior to that was kind of anti-ADHD medication for no real reason. But I was like, you know, what's the point? Until I got to a point where I went, Am I just doing stuff the hard way? Am I going to grapple with some of these things forever to my own detriment? And it was a conversation on my show with Seamus, who I cannot remember his last name right now. That's terrible. Seamus. Anyway, he had done similar to you and your friend. We had this conversation. He had a recent diagnosis. He was always told by his parents he's had it, but he didn't know he'd never been diagnosed. And he tried medication, but he only used it intermittently. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that was a thing. So when I went to get diagnosed, I wanted to try medication every now and then. And that's kind of how I used a couple of the medications for a little while. And I didn't really vibe with them. I felt like they was almost like borrowing energy that you then had to repay later. I found it a bit turbulent. But funnily enough... I had some of the first medication I was given at the end of my second two years. So the psychiatrist will give your GP the ability to prescribe your medication for two years. So I'd swapped after the first two years to a different one, but I had this first one left. And funnily enough, and I would say after being on HRT, fixing my iron levels and down-regulating over those years my entire nervous system, I tried that medication again and the feeling and the response was so smooth and good. And I thought, I'm going to try this daily until I run out because I'm due for another appointment. If I just, and I hadn't been taking medication, I hadn't been taking it regularly. I'd gone, none of these, I'm out. Now I thought, well, maybe I should give this a red hot go then. And, and I have been for the last four months and it's been interesting and it's, yeah, it's, It is funny because if you had asked me four years ago, I'd be like, I don't want to take it every single day.
00:13:17
Speaker 1: Nah.
00:13:19
Speaker 2: Silly.
00:13:20
Speaker 1: Well, see, I haven't got to that point yet because my GP needed to do the application to be able to dispense or to write a script. So they have to make, it can take up to six weeks for the GP to be able to then be able to, you know, go write you a script for it. But interestingly, I did a six-week course that was done through the clinic that I've been getting the counselling through. And the guy who took the course has ADHD. And he said, look, I'm not anti-medication. What I am is about giving you skills to understand what you're going through. And the one thing that resonated, and I mentioned it before, is executive function. The things that you can focus on at one given time. And, you know, and also the motivation. This is something that, so generally, if, you know, I love this, the phrase, set your eye on the prize. You know, for a lot of people, if you go to do a task, you look at the goal and the goal is the reward. So the endorphins kind of get kicked in, the drugs, your internal kind of drugs, that is. Your body motivates you to do that. Now, that's great because you get a spike and it motivates you. And then as you get closer, that gets better and better. So the person who has normal function, who is neurotypical, will be able to keep using that because it's consistent. But somebody with ADHD gets that spike and it disappears. So it means that we don't have that same motivation to complete the task because you get the initial burst and then, oh, look, it's a cloudy sky. Oh, wait a minute. I really do need to put that washing on or I need to do this or I need to do that. So the problem that we face is that we can't focus on a task. Now, for me, if I'm not motivated, when I'm motivated, I'm kick-ass. But when I'm not motivated, like the basic stuff of life, like invoicing. So I do all this work for clients and then I don't frigging invoice them. And I sit there and think, well, I can't pay my bills because I haven't invoiced them. There is such a mental barrier to doing the bookkeeping side of the business that I sat with my bookkeeper the other day and I said, look, this is what we're going to do. We're going to have a video call every Tuesday or Monday once you've gone through and checked everything to try to make me accountable. And, you know, I'll write a list of things I need to do and then by the following week. But, you know, it's the first week of this and I've already been distracted because I've had other things. Now, a client says, oh, can you go out tomorrow? The wind has dropped and I need you to take your drone out and video canola. Fuck yeah. I'm not going to sit down and do invoices when I can be out on a farm flying low over canola and getting all that spectacular vision for someone I like. So all that went out the door because the wind dropped and suddenly I drove half an hour to a farm to fly my drone over canola. You know, most farmers will shoot your drone down and here's someone paying me to do it.
00:16:21
Speaker 2: It's such a, Yeah, like the idea, when you said you were going to go and do a course and get some coaching around it, I remember like my response to that for me is like, oh, it's obvious the things you need to put in place to do the things. If I wanted to do it, I'd do it. And the last thing I want is someone telling me what to do. I'm not listening to someone telling me what to do. It's why I don't have a boss. Don't tell me what to do. And yeah, of course that makes sense. It's true.
00:16:49
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, I got really motivated. I went to Officeworks and I bought a little white. So I've got a big whiteboard on the back of the door with all my main jobs. And then I thought, I'm going to get a little whiteboard. And, you know, here's a good one, Tiff. You know, whiteboard markers are all consistently the same size. And so when you want to write small, it's hard because they're thick. I found at Officeworks, you can get little colored ones that are smaller. I'm so excited. So I've got a small whiteboard right next to my desk. And now I can write with my little whiteboard markers. and make notes, and I can do a daily checklist. Because see, for us, checklists are really good. Because again, that's part of the motivation process, to have them there, use lots of colors, and then to mark them off, that gives us a little bit of a rush to be able to do those. So look, I'm trying it at the moment, but I do want to see what the medication might be like as well. But the other thing that came up that really shocked me was it could be between 30% and 40% of the population that is neurodivergent, which is staggering. And that doesn't surprise me now because I keep talking to people who say, oh, yeah, I've got ADHD.
00:17:54
Speaker 2: What?
00:17:56
Speaker 1: You know, if you probably asked for a show of hands in a room, you'd get a lot of hands go up, which is not a bad thing and not a good thing. It's just what it is. It's a reality. And, you know, I've got one of my staff has got ADHD and he takes the medication before he comes into work, helps him focus. And he also works from home as well. But, you know, I didn't ask him to disclose that. It just happened. I think I might have mentioned it myself. And then he said, oh, yeah, me too. You know, so it's not a hindrance. It's about managing it, I guess, and knowing what you can do and what you can't do. And in a lot of ways, I kind of laughingly said to someone recently, it's my superpower. Because it does get me, you know, some of the things that are atypical with people who've got ADHD actually make them really good at what they can do too. It's not a negative. It's just the way that your brain works. That's all. Nothing negative, nothing positive. It's just that you're neurodivergent. That's all. Because one of the things they explain in the very first session is for people who are neurotypical, generally, as a rule, they're the people that sit around the campfire in olden times and And they say, this is safe. This is where we do. We're going to eat these. We're going to go over here and we're going to cook these mushrooms. And occasionally, an animal will come past and we'll spear it and we'll put it over the fire. But the person who's neurodivergent says, yeah, but what's over the hill? And they say, oh, no, you can't go over the hill because there's wild animals and you could get eaten and stuff like that. And the neurotypical people form a little cluster and say, no, no, it's not safe. But The neurodivergent person says, yeah, fuck that. Let's just go over the hill and see what happens. And look, one of them might have got eaten, but the other ones discovered, guess what? Apples on a freaking tree. Oh my God, now I can have mushrooms and apples. So the reality of it is sometimes people with ADHD who are neurodivergent take the risks. They can push outside of the norm. And there's nothing, again, it's not a right or wrong, and it's not a blasphemy.
00:19:50
Speaker 2: Or white.
00:19:50
Speaker 1: It's a grey. It's a very grey area.
00:19:53
Speaker 2: I think what is more important is the individual's relationship with the diagnosis. And I think also there is a whole lot of consideration to be taken around the everything else in someone's life. One, how does their ADHD express? What is in their background? How is some of that potentially related to trauma? One of my big questions at the beginning, and I still think it's inconclusive, I go, well, when I did PH360 and I studied and learned about epigenetics and the personality types based on that system of canned McDonald's, I am an activator and an activator when they were an embryo was predominantly exposed to testosterone and adrenaline. So I am a risk taker. I am competitive. I am like a crossfitter. I have a particular biochemistry physically, mentally, and emotionally that gives me a set of characteristics. A lot of those characteristics, you put me in a classroom and I express like someone with ADHD in inverted commas. Also, I went, well, and I experienced childhood trauma that I never talked about. And then I became an adult. And then I had all of these realizations about how that was expressing. And a lot of those reactions can look a lot like traits of ADHD. And I was like, well, is ADHD a DNA, a genetic thing? Is it simply biochemistry or is it.
00:21:33
Speaker 2: Something that has come about from a traumatic experience or some sort of experience, we medicalize a lot of things. And I find that interesting. And I remember also years after my diagnosis, I remember I did it online and I was like, yeah, obviously. And then afterwards I was like, you know, they asked me in the second appointment to have maybe a parent come. Like I can't get a parent to Zoom in there in Tassie and they have no idea what Zoom is. Or bring some school reports. I didn't dig my school reports out and I still got a diagnosis. So I was a bit like, these are clowns, like whatever. Anyway, I've got, you know, I've got the answer I came for. I probably would have, and I think I was in a place of, I don't even know. I don't even know if I trust that diagnosis. But last year I dug out my school reports. I ended up putting them on Facebook. They're very funny. I read the comments, all of my high school reports. And when I read them, I just go, it is wild that I never had a diagnosis at school of ADHD. Like the standout comment, one of my teachers wrote, Tiffany is proving to be a selfish, self-centered individual who is intent on throwing away any chance she has of passing this course. Every other, yeah, that was the standout. Every other comment was Tiffany is highly capable if she would stop distracting other people. Tiffany would do well if she would apply herself. Like I failed gym, funnily enough, because I never took my gear. I never participated. Like, and I just read those and went, well, there's no doubt in my mind. And how was that missed?
00:23:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I was the kid. I can remember teachers saying, you've got ants in your pants. I fidgeted. I couldn't sit still. I was the kid who always had their hand. I was pretty smart. So I had my hand up. And when I didn't get picked, I'd get really, you know, I was really agitated. And at one point, I remember having my hand up and clicking my finger because the teacher wasn't looking over in my direction. Can you imagine that? But I was just one of those kids that, as I said, couldn't sit still. And, you know, I was a bit of a class comic. I used to do impressions of the teachers. At one point, I had a little FM wireless transmitter, a little FM microphone. I had it clipped to the inside of my sleeve. And I was broadcasting to all my mates in the class who had radios because I was running a radio station in class because the class was boring. And, yeah, so I guess that's not a typical thing that people do. But then again, I don't know. I don't know why people don't do that. Of course you should get an FM transmitter and broadcast in the middle of a boring class and entertain all your mates.
00:24:27
Speaker 2: What do you think the pros and cons? What do you think the pros– like– And again, in the middle of this conversation, I also feel really aware of repeating that everyone's experience is different and there's context to it. But one thing I find these days that I find perplexing and almost frustrating is, I guess, the kind of the special consideration some people want for this condition. when I think maybe they're placing themselves in the wrong career or, you know, it's like if you are wired a certain way, you have a certain set of skills that you will thrive in and you will, you are not, it isn't, I don't believe it is a disability. Some things will be very challenging and some things you will shine in. And I think it is, it is our, not obligation, but maybe it's our obligation to explore life and find the place we fit.
00:25:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Particularly, this has really raised my awareness and kind of, I guess, sense of understanding, but also I think about kids who don't have that executive function. So the ones that are the troublemakers at school, they're the kids that are really trying hard to fit in but they don't have the capacity so that it gets earmarked as disruptive as somebody who's intentionally disrupting people around them. And it's not naughty behavior. And if you've got 30 to 40% of the population that fall into that category, then the naughty kid in class is the one that we need to understand how we need to educate them to keep them motivated, stimulated, and understand that they don't work the same way. You know, I guess, you know, I think about all the achievements. I mean, I remember getting in trouble from my parents for sneaking out at night to go to radio school. Right? So I so desperately wanted to go to radio school. I was sneaking out at night. I paid for it myself. Sneaked because I asked my parents for permission to go to radio school. I said, it's ridiculous. Wog kid growing up in Coburg, 15 years old, decides he wants to get into radio. And, you know, they said, well, how much is it going to cost? And it was really expensive. It might have been $ 400 or more. at 15 a long time ago. We're talking the mid-80s. So it was pretty expensive. And so I'd been working since I was 13. I paid for it myself and I was doing this installment payment every time I went there. And then week three, my dad caught me taking the flyer screen off and climbing out the window. He said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm going to school. I'm the kid who's sneaking out at night to go to school. And.
00:27:17
Speaker 1: And then when I told him that I was going to radio school and he said, well, how much did you pay for that? And I told him, he said, oh, you better keep going then. That was it. That was the– so at least I didn't have to sneak out to go. But, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? When you're hyper-focused and really motivated, we'll do anything.
00:27:33
Speaker 2: Oh, 100%. When I was in college at school and it was time to kind of pick your career– And so we– and college for us, we went to year 10 and then year 11 and 12 was a different school. So I'd gone year 11 at this other school and great, like, exciting novelty, great guns for four to five months and then just a shithead again. So it had become clear. By then I was like– I don't really know what I want to do with the rest of my life, but one thing is clear. I can't– I cannot– I am absolutely incapable of applying myself for– I was– One teacher in year 11 said, you are the only student in a year 11 class I've ever had to sit outside of the classroom. Like, it's how distracting I was. But I just, it's like, I couldn't, there was no way I was going to go to further education and go to uni knowing that I wouldn't apply myself. However, so I left that. I went, I got an apprenticeship, like a business traineeship. and I hit the workforce and I worked two jobs. And I remember doing overtime at the first job, sitting, the place was closed. I'm there doing overtime and I'm on call for the second job. And then I get the call and I finished there. And so it's like, it's not an application issue. I will do the work, but it's got to be engaging. And I've had several jobs ever since. Like, look at me now. I do, I do coaching. I do podcasting. I'm running, I do speaking. I'm right. You know, it's like, I have to have all of the things. And that when I, figured that out about me, I stopped jumping into new jobs every three years.
00:29:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I've had my own business for 22 years now, I guess, 22, 23 years. Working as a journalist was the absolute best career for me because you get into the newsroom at 4am and you've just got to start writing and producing bulletins. So first bulletin 5.30 and then every half hour you've got to churn out a new bulletin. And that's great. Hyper-focused, motivated, interviewing people, putting it together, writing stories, and then it all was over at 10 o'clock, I'm done, 9.30, 10 o'clock. But what it's made me realize is that we need more understanding about neurodivergence in the general community. A teacher putting you outside because you're so disruptive should have been about them understanding why you were doing what you were doing, not the fact. It's cause and effect, isn't it? Maybe it's just because what they were teaching was too boring and not engaging enough for you.
00:30:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm pretty sure it was maths.
00:30:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:30:15
Speaker 2: And I was good at maths. Like maths made sense to me, which shit my teachers because it was the same in high school. I remember my high school teacher kicking me out, putting my desk outside and And then I could see his frustration when I would get marked with A pluses. And he would be like, you do not pay attention. You disrupt the class and you don't even deserve to get these marks.
00:30:41
Speaker 1: In year 12, my biology teacher said to me, because I was a straight A student in all our pracs. I love doing pracs. I love doing them, laying them out visually and all that sort of stuff. And he said to me, he said, you know, you could have been the best student I've ever had. He said, but you never put in any effort and you still got high marks. Because I found it so easy. Isn't that crazy to have someone say that to you? You could have been the best student I've ever had, but you never put any effort in. But I got an A. Like, what the hell? You know, okay, so I breezed it through, but I just was a sponge with some things. You know, when we do our tech segment and we, you know, I talk to Harps on the You Project, That's because, you know, I might read 25 stories. We might only discuss six of them, but there's another 19 that I've got stored in my head as well. You know, quite often, you never see the list that I send through to him when we do our podcast because Tiff and I sit in on this podcast once a fortnight, most of the time, and I talk about tech and we talk a lot of crap, don't we? But eventually when we get on topic, we might choose five or six or sometimes a little bit more, but we never get through this list. You know, the amount of stories that I send through to potentially talk about, a lot of them just don't get discussed because we don't get enough time to do it. But they're all still sitting in there and are just as relevant in the back of my head as all the other stuff. So, you know, although we only talk about those small number, the other ones are all there as well.
00:32:07
Speaker 2: It is interesting. Like, I think of you, if I was to explain... You're interesting because of the mishmash of things that you are and that interest you. So you've got tech, which makes sense because it's always evolving, so you can't get sick of it. But you've got tech, you've got journalism and everything you've done there, and then the Tai Chi, and then the web design and the design stuff you do. It makes sense.
00:32:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. And sometimes I'd have a staff member come in on a Monday. It's like, oh, what did you do on the weekend? Oh, yeah, I just did this with some housework, did some shopping. did some, and then he'd say to me, well, what did you get up to? And then I'd rattle off like the list of things that I did at the weekend. And by the end of it, he was exhausted. You know, what do you do during the, well, I've got something, you know, and it's nice to have a break. We're in the middle of school holidays, so I don't have commitments in the evening. Although I have committed to things in the evening, I'm just not doing my normal thing. So now Tuesday, like Monday's book group once a month, Tuesday's choir, Wednesday, I'm teaching Tai Chi. Thursday, I'm teaching Tai Chi. Friday, I catch up with a mate and watch Star Trek. So there's always something on. And this week, because it's school holidays, I'm not doing any teaching and there's no choir. I watched Star Trek last night. And then tonight, I've got some people coming for dinner. And then I've got something else. I cram my life with so much. And that's a good thing for me because I need to have that constantly happening. You know, I need that in my life to have all those things going on. But sometimes it's for other people, it's more exhausting than it is for me.
00:33:46
Speaker 2: I'm just laughing because I'm like, I wonder if I ever thought that I'd be able to say that one of my great mates is a Star Trek enthusiast, goes to choir, loves book clubs and does Tai Chi. And I mean, I could rattle off so many more. Like you have such an eclectic bunch of, interests.
00:34:08
Speaker 1: Yeah it's a bit like my music tastes you know i'll sit in the office and listen to you know classical music um and then you know uh sometimes i'll listen to rammstein and or you know or imagine dragons you know lincoln park and you know it's music um i i music actually really helps me a lot i think and particularly when i'm trying to focus classical music i particularly i find is really really useful for me just having that going on in the background um But I think life is about eclectic tastes. I think having diversity. I had a really interesting conversation yesterday with a young guy who has been working for me for four years, part-time, after school. And he's now, you know, he's 18, 19. And he just got back from five months overseas. So he's been traveling overseas, which was really great. And he's come back such a different person. you know, he's got this girlfriend and they've been basically, you know, she traveled a little bit and then he went and traveled with mates. And of course, they've been reunited after about four months and now they're totally inseparable, which is so cute. You know, he's a really lovely guy and she's great. But seeing someone being so transformed, I get a sense that he may even be looking at activism, you know, getting involved politically. We were talking about the state of the world and you know, he credits that with traveling and perspective. And we know that travel can broaden the mind. We hear that a lot. But he, you know, it's so lovely to see young people enthused. And one of the little projects, pet projects I'm working on at the moment, amongst everything else that I do, Tiff, is a community radio station that I've been involved with. So I first got interested in radio And I went to the Melbourne Radio School, did this course, and that was a catalyst for me to then want to get into the industry. But I failed year 11. I went to a Christian brother's school. I had an awful time, not dissimilar to what we're talking about, and probably related a little bit to the ADHD in terms of my disruptiveness. My physics teacher, who was a really awful Christian brother, would say to me, I'm not going to correct your work because your words weren't close enough to the margin. or I didn't like the color of the ink that you used. I used to always use the fountain pen, loved fountain pens, still do now. And so I always took pride. I've got a really good handwriting. But I remember him saying, yeah, so refusing to correct work. So I used to go and sabotage all his experiments before class. So he'd be doing weights and measures. So I'd go and stretch all the springs so that it wouldn't work. Well, you know, he was an asshole, so he deserved it. But this is the irony. I remember sitting in front of the principal. They called in my parents and they said, well, look, we're going to kick Patrick out of the school because basically he's failed. And so he's not going to be able to pass. So he's getting kicked out of the school. But I had an A in biology and an A in English and then an F in everything else. So maybe I'm not stupid. Maybe it's just that the course that I was doing was the wrong one for me, the wrong fit. And then I went and changed schools and suddenly I was a straight A student. I was on the SRC at school, treasurer first year, president second year, won the school fellowship award two years in a row and was on school council. And that's where a teacher that I ended up becoming my mentor, student welfare coordinator, became my mentor for 30 years. He introduced me to a teacher that he knew at another school who was working at a community radio station on the weekends. And that's what got me into community radio. And I was getting back to what this little pet project I've got at the moment. There's a community radio station. So even though I worked in commercial radio for all my journalism career, I still did a lot of work on community radio, supporting community, because I think that's really important. It's the grassroots stuff and particularly encouraging young people or fostering that interest in radio, because that's how I got into it. And I've always kind of given back in that sense. And there's a local radio station that's going through a really difficult time. So I've kind of nominated to get on the board to try to, you know, get a group of people around to rally around. Because if it goes under, the area that I live in, which is rural, could potentially lose their community radio station. And I thought, like, I can't let this happen. And they're the little passion projects that keep you motivated, I think. You know, whatever it happens to be. You know, you might just get someone who wants to step in a ring with you and get punched in the face. Like, that's great. You know, that's awesome. Ain't it ever? Yeah.
00:38:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think that– I don't think anyone is stupid. I think that– and I think that narrative or framing of it is really dangerous because it's very easy to think we're stupid. I think that we– One, we will be wired with a particular strength in a version of something intellectual, but I think we need the interest. And somewhere along the way, that kind of was a penny that dropped for me. I think boxing was a huge one. Like when I did that first fight, 2012, I was 29. I did this thing and I realized in the middle of doing this thing that I wasn't very good at, that after I did the event, it was terrifying, scared the hell out of me. But afterwards I wanted to do it again. And I could feel myself outside of me looking at me going, that's a bit interesting because you at school and for the rest of your life, you only did what you knew you would win. I would compete in athletics carnivals at high school because I would win. I would come first in the 100, 200, 400 meters and all of the jumping events. Anything longer, I didn't train for it. But once I got taken then into high competitions and was competing against athletes, didn't want to play. I played minky hockey when I was in primary school for three years because everyone was instructed, just get the ball to tiff. And I got to play scent. I got to play the best thing because I always got the goals. And then on the last year, I wasn't doing that well. And so I stopped playing after that. So I had this real, if you're good enough, someone will tell you and you'll do something. And boxing was... different to that for me. I was like, oh, I feel compelled, very compelled and drawn to doing this when I don't feel very good at it. But I also realized you don't have to be good at something to become good at something or to choose to do something. And you can learn absolutely anything if you want to.
00:41:08
Speaker 1: And there's also, Tiff, the other element is that you may enjoy doing it and it doesn't matter that you don't win. You know, there's a lovely little story. Because I've worked in the community sector, there are a lot of egos, more egos in community radio than commercial radio.
00:41:24
Speaker 2: Really?
00:41:25
Speaker 1: You know, it's so eclectic and, you know, people kind of, you know, people like to big note themselves sometimes and the media does tend to attract people. But the lovely thing, and I remember seeing this at a cafe once in South Melbourne, and it said, professional can do their job when they don't want to and amateur can't when they do.
00:41:45
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
00:41:46
Speaker 1: The difference between an amateur and a professional. But the thing that I've always loved about community radio is, you know, sometimes you'll get a presenter who's never, ever going to make it in radio, but they still do their little show and they still play their vinyl or CD or Spotify or whatever they're using. Although there is a pushback now. People are going back to vinyl. Isn't it awesome? I love that. And CDs. But I think that The fact that someone may not have the skills or talent or whatever, you know, not everybody wants to play on centre court at the Australian Open, but it doesn't mean you can't get with a few friends and go to your local tennis club and just have a bit of a whack at it. And who cares? The most fun I had playing, the only time I've ever played a competitive sport was mixed volleyball in St Kilda. And it was called indoor volleyball because they had nets around the court. So you could bounce the ball off the nets and literally bounce your body off the nets, which is so much fun. But there was one season that we played and it was a really good mixed comp. But there was one season that we played that we just dominated. We won every single game. I didn't enjoy it. And then the next season they put us up into a league that was way higher and we lost every game. I enjoyed it much more because I worked so much harder and it made me better. And I've got to tell you this funny story. So one of the mates that we played in, because you know when you're playing competitive comp, but it's a mixed comp, people inevitably drop out and you've got to try to drag somebody in. Well, one of my mates who played with us regularly, who was one of the founding members, we were called the Fig Jams, by the way, wasn't my name. I didn't choose it, but a girlfriend of mine did. I didn't even know what it meant and then laughed a lot. But anyway, we were the Fig Jams. And so we were always looking for replacements when someone couldn't make it. And One of my mates worked in the fashion industry and one of his assistants, one day we'd had a person drop out. We urgently needed to get somebody in. And this lovely young girl decided to fill in for us. And she was stunning, kitted out beautifully, had the lippy on, had the mascara. She looked a million dollars. You could have done a fashion shoot on that court. Well, anyway, the game starts and someone spikes the ball smashed her straight in the face, like absolutely plum in the face. And we all run over to see that she's okay. I turn around and the ball bounces. It's got a frigging face print and I can see the lipstick. You know the Tom Hanks movie with the basketball? You know when Tom Hanks is on the island and there's the basketball that he talks to? No. No, they'll know. The listeners will know what I'm talking about. But anyway, so all I could see, and so I feel bad for this woman, but I'm laughing so hard, I almost pissed myself. I've got tears running out of my eyes. And, of course, as we kept playing, all I could see was this ball fly over, and suddenly the face would be looking at you. Oh, man. I don't even know how I got into that topic, but it was just a sport. The only time I ever played a competitive sport, and I was pretty– I mean, I enjoyed it, but, yeah, I enjoyed it more when I was– playing in a league, but man, that was the funniest thing you've ever seen.
00:45:00
Speaker 2: I reckon that's one of the challenges. Um, and I guess prevalent for people with ADHD is figuring out at any point of your life, what's, what's gonna, what's going to be the thing that, that you grab and you take. There's been plenty of like, I've, I've, one of my biggest challenges, it was coming up with something to execute in, in my business that I would, that I could build on and grow and make a commercially viable thing that I would have the drive to. Because I would often do sporadic different programs. I would run a workshop on this and then I would do a boxing workshop and then I did 10 rounds with Tiff for a while and When I first started that, I thought this is going to be the thing. I'm going to run these three times a year, so I'll have people coming through and I'll love it and it'll get better and better and bigger and it'll be great. And by the time I started the third one, I had this sense of I love this, but I cannot put it on a time schedule. I cannot have another one locked in at a specific set of months because I am at my best and when I am just drawn beyond my own control to want to do that and run that. And I knew that I was going to not be the best version of me if I kept doing it. And in those moments, I would have these, where I would go, and that they were my moments where I was like, am I always going to be like this? I'm just like, I, I, why do I, is this a version of self-sabotage? Why do I, like I do something, I'm successful at it. It's got great legs and then I don't want to do it. Like, is it, is that Fear of success, is it fear of whatever? And then it's been, you know, like interesting because this year I did a similar thing with the strength programming and I am just so into it in a way that, you know, but I just had, you have to be patient and I think try a lot of things and go, I'm going to do this. And sometimes you come back to something. I didn't think I was going to, I thought I was still training people in the gym and coaching them. But I, and I've said for a long time when people were like, do you want more client? I want more clients. I've got, I don't want any more clients. I don't want to build that part of my business. And I didn't see myself having an interest that was going to stem in that space specifically. So it's been really interesting, but it, yeah, it encompasses everything else I do. And it is much more than just the physical, but yeah, it's surprising. And I just think that is part of you going, oh, I understand how I'm wired. I've got to try a bunch of things. They may or may not work, but I can't have a defeated view of it. I can't be hard on myself. I just have to go, that's okay. I loved that, but you can't help if your intrinsic motivation is not there for a particular thing, I think.
00:48:04
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right. And it's easy to pigeonhole as well and to say, well, that kid's disruptive or that kid's just not good at sport. So he doesn't get picked for the footy team, doesn't get picked for the cricket. He's the last kid to get picked. And I was a little bit like that because I didn't like footy, didn't like cricket, didn't like any of the conventional sports. I did have a little foray into hockey because I had a stick and I ran fast. And suddenly the big footy kids were a bit scared of me because I had a weapon. But, you know, it's funny. I would say, you know, I'm not sporting. I don't like sport, don't like sport, don't like sport. Year 11 and year 12, I rode my bike every morning to the local pool and swam a kilometre and then rode home before school every day because I wanted to. And I really loved it. And I loved being in the water. And right at the end of my swimming session, I'd just do this whole thing where I floated in the water. to see how long I could hold my breath for. And, you know, that's not a kid who isn't sporty. It's a kid who hasn't found the right sport. And then when I moved out of home, I cycled every morning before work. You know, I cycled regularly. And then I discovered rock climbing and archery and paragliding. And it's like, oh, wow. yeah, they're really good sports. I like those. And wait a minute, rock climbing, I mean, I guess archery to a degree, but really it's not competitive in the sense that footy, it's not a team sport. Paragliding isn't a team sport, although you work with a community of really dedicated people. You know, rock climbing isn't a team sport, but you have a belayer and you work intimately with that person because it's in your best interests for the two of you to have a really good rapport. That definitely is if you're the ones holding the rope. But it's just my brain isn't, I mean, for that one time that I did competitive volleyball, only it was social comp anyway, And we weren't playing for cattle stations. And no one could understand that I was just as happy not winning as I was winning. Even though I'm a very competitive person, me, it was the experience of just hanging out with my friends. I got to see my friends every week on a Tuesday night and hang out with them. That was the fun thing about it. But I kind of see more that we need to fix our education system. We need to fix... the system that pigeonholes kids who are, you know, labeled as disruptive, labeled as bad kid and ask the question further down, you know, is that kid bad or do they just need different sorts of motivation? You know, is it because they're bored in class or their head is brimming with so much information that they're struggling to retain anymore because they can't do more than that? You know, they're sitting there trying to sit still because all they want to do is tap their pen and or tap their foot because they need to release that energy. I stand up at my desk all day. I can't sit still. I can't sit down at a desk all day because I fidget. And so I bought the very first kind of fidget spinners on Fidget Cube on Kickstarter, and it was great because I could sit around and use that. But I can't sit down at my desk. It's just physically impossible to sit down for a whole day. And that's where you adapt your working environment because I can. It's where, you know, it's my home and I can, I've got my home office and I just do what I do with that. And I, yeah, I'm now much more super sympathetic to people who fall into a category where they get pigeonholed. You know, my dad was a mad soccer fan and he coached the local soccer team. He was manager of the local soccer team. And so I was dragged along. My big brother was really good. He played state. And my twin brother, identical twin brother, get compared to them constantly. He played really well as well. But me, if I'm not interested, I just won't do it. And so I just sat on the swings, you know, at the local playground. And I can remember being, you know, and suddenly when you're the different kid, then you get victimized and bullied. And it got to the point where one day they tipped out a rubbish bin, one of those middle mesh rubbish bins. and put it over the top of me. And I was stuck in a rubbish bin and the kids were sitting, you know, all just jeering and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, as a, as a kid of maybe nine or 10, you know, you're being victimized because you're different. Uh, that was, that was, you know, it's, and then, then I was allowed just to stay home. Um, when, um, and, and, and that said though, stay at home and look after your disabled brother because mum was working and dad was off at soccer.
00:52:47
Speaker 2: It's, um, yeah people's reaction to us can be really dangerous like I remember when I worked one of my first jobs in Melbourne um great job great boss and his wife used to come in and she would always laugh and kind of jeer at me a little bit and be like oh what are you doing this week you know to be I'd be running every day one week, then it'd be yoga and everybody swing dancing and now I'm doing this and she'd roll her eyes and be like, oh, what are you doing this week? You should just stick at something. And I remember saying, oh, when do I die? There's not going to be anything on the list of things where I go, oh, I wish I had given that a go. And it's like, do you look at, are you looking at this from, oh, yeah, you always quit. You never stick at anything or are you looking at it and going, so great that you give everything a go. Like there's two ways to look at things. And I think when we go, when we look at someone and go, they never stick at anything and we say that to them, what does that do? Because then that becomes our self-talk. Oh, you never stick at anything. Yeah, but nobody says, oh, it's so amazing that you give everything a go. And everything you give a go, you learn and grow from. And it becomes, you know, you never know when that skill set is going to all of a sudden be some magic pill in some part of your next venture or adventure or business. I just think it can be really, really dangerous to be exposed to other people's mindset around things.
00:54:30
Speaker 1: Some people love the safety of familiarity and love the fact that they can sit around that campfire and know that the mushrooms are over there down the road and, you know, and it's safe because we've got a cave and we can defend it and all that sort of stuff. But we need it as a society. We need someone like you to climb that hill and potentially get eaten by a tiger or discover that there are apples and oranges and other stuff. Where the hell would we be if someone didn't step on the surface of the moon or, you know, didn't discover Australia or, you know, the new world and the risk takers. And not everybody's built that way to take risks. You know, I've stood on the edge of a cliff with a piece of fabric laying on the ground behind me thinking, right, okay, now, yeah, I could potentially step off this cliff and plummet to the ground. But I'm also, you know, going to do something that a lot of people couldn't even face. You know, I've jumped out of an airplane with a parachute. Not as fun as paragliding because I was strapped to an instructor, which was boring. So for me, the whole idea of paragliding was that I was in total control and I was running towards the edge of a cliff and I had the wing above me. And at some point, my legs were going to leave the ground and they'd be just flopping around in the air as I jumped back into the harness and start flying. And there's an amazing quote. I wish I could think about the flying quote from Leonardo da Vinci. It's the most profound thing. I'm going to do a quick search. Sorry. There's this amazing quote. from Leonardo da Vinci. Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you will always long to return. How amazing is that? And that, to me, I did 51 paragliding flights, because you have to keep a logbook. And one of the last flights I ever did, I launched off at, where was I? I was at bright in country Victoria, beautiful location, stunning. And as I took off, I started to fly towards the landing zone and I looked down and there was an eagle flying underneath me with its wings unfurled. And I could see the tips of the wings flaring as it was riding that thermal. And I thought to myself, when I landed, I thought, who has ever had the opportunity to fly above an eagle and look down and see an eagle below you. You know, that's got to be, like, write that on my tombstone. I flew with the birds. I didn't just fly with the birds. I flew above the birds.
00:57:12
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:57:15
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to step off the edge of a cliff with a piece of fabric above them, and that's great. You know, you're in your knitting group or whatever. That's awesome. I love people who can knit. I can't knit to save my life. Mum tried to teach me once and I made some great nets. That's about it. I had so many holes in my knitting. And I can't do it, you know. But thank goodness because I wouldn't be wearing clothes if friends of mine didn't knit me jumpers. And then everybody would be worse off.
00:57:45
Speaker 2: What's the one thing for you that is now better having had a diagnosis?
00:57:54
Speaker 1: Oh, understanding why I do what I do. And particularly, I know I've mentioned it a few times, that executive function to know that there's nothing broken. I'm just divergent. I'm just different. And that shouldn't come as any surprise because I've been doing that my whole life. I failed year 11, excelled in year 11 and 12, and I repeated. Yes, I was the kid on the SRC. I'd been at a new school for six weeks and I got voted onto the SRC because I was the loud kid in class. You know, I was the kid in class who was constantly talking up and everyone thought, oh yeah, we'll vote him on the SRC. He talks a lot. That's me. You know, so that could have gone the other way. That could have been the teachers saying, oh no, you know, you're too disruptive. But no, in fact, I was so lucky to have some good teachers. When I went back to school and changed schools, they encouraged me. They saw a spark of something. And I was encouraged to be who I was. So this is just another part of that journey, being who you are, your authentic you and embracing that and saying, well, okay, I know that there are things that I struggle with and now I've got to put things in place. So whether I go into medication and that helps me or whether I put systems in place so that my bookkeeper calls me and says, have you done this? Have you done those invoices we talked about you doing on Monday? And what's today, Wednesday? No, I haven't.
00:59:18
Speaker 2: How funny is this? Year 10, failed gym because I never took my gear. because I was most likely behind the gym shed smoking my mother's cigarettes. Thanks, Mum. Sorry, Mum. And I was voted vice house captain. What a shithead, eh? Anyway, do you want to tell people where to find you and follow you and do some Tai Chi and maybe see you flying over a bloody eagle sometime?
00:59:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tai Chi at Home is actually a little website that I've been working on over COVID because it was a way to keep my students motivated so that they could still keep exercising. So if you want to check that out, you can then contact me through that, I guess. I'm hoping to put some new videos on there, but there's exercises you can do. You can find out a little bit more. I love doing that sort of stuff. And you can just join me with some exercises. Me and Fritz, my dog, he's in there as long. He gets highlighted a lot. Good old Fritzie.
01:00:22
Speaker 2: Thanks, Patrick. Thanks, Fritz.
01:00:24
Speaker 1: Thanks, Tiff. Little girls, gotta do what a girl's gotta do. Little girls, gotta do what a girl's gotta do.