Intersectionality Mental Health, MAID, and Suicidality with Rebecca Deutsch

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You're listening to Vancouver cop Radio cfr OH one hundred
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point five FM. We're coming to you from the unseated
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traditional territories of the Squamish, Musquam and slighwy Tooth nations
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around Vancouver, BC. I'm your host, Bernardine Fox, and this
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is this show that dares to change how we think
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about mental health. Welcome to Rethreading Madness.
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We have ever been fir.
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No, what the hell I'm gonna do when I can't
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see a fine way under over?
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You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
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cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox,
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and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Rebecca
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Deutsch from who is a PhD candidate from York University
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and is doing a paper on made and suicidality. And
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so we're going to start with a trigger warning for folks.
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Just know that we are going to talk about suicide.
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So if you need to do something to make yourself
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okay on this hour, please make sure you do that. So, Rebecca,
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welcome to the show.
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Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
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No problem. Can you tell folks a little bit more
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about how you came to be doing this paper.
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Absolutely so, I think I relate to the question of
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made from a couple different personal angles. As someone who
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struggled with suicidality for a large part of my life,
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I come with a lot of kind of personal experience
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about what some of the driving factors that people might
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have for accessing made. I've also lost a couple people
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that I really love to suicide, which I think has
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given me a lot of empathy as well for the
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kind of reasons that might lead someone to try and
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access MADE. So those are kind of the two big
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personal reasons.
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Yeah, so can you tell folks what is made? And
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of course this show goes all over the globe, so
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make sure it is clear for folks who may not
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live here in Canada what is made.
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Absolutely so, it's a that's a very interesting question. Made.
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It stands for medical assistance and dying, And in around
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twenty fifteen, there was a big court case where the
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law that basically legally prohibited physicians for assisting patients and
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dying was repealed. And when that happened, it was largely
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reserved for people for whom for seeable death was imminent.
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And this is now called a track one cases. A
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couple years later, around twenty seventeen, I believe there was
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a case out in Quebec where somebody argued, I can't
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pronounce their last name, but I think it's Trutchen or
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true Chin. I'm sorry for anyone from Quebec, but he
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had an argument that it was against the constitution to
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derive deprive people who are suffering from an irremediable condition
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from MAD and that went forward through Bill C seven.
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At the same time, kind of in a sunset clause,
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which it's really interesting, made MDSCUMC, which stands for mental
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disorder soul underlying medical condition was introduced as well, but
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that's still very much in flux, and it's not entirely
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clear whether that will continue to be delayed. I think
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we'll have a lot more information about that in the
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next couple of months.
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So let me just be clear then, what's happening right
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now is that mental health issues are considered or are
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not considered as qualifying conditions undermade.
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So technically it's not allowed to be enacted, but it
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was passed so that the Sorry, let me back up
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for a second, Basically what happened is they were introduced
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alongside physical disability, but they decided that different kind of
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of assessment measures were really necessary. So it's been delayed
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three times now and it's unclear whether or not it
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will be delayed again. And some of the way that
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that's being framed is particularly interesting, I think, especially from
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a mad perspective, does that kind of answer.
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Yes, yeah, absolutely, And you have a personal relationship to
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the issue of maide, can you tell folks what that is?
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Right? So I guess for me, the large relationship that
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I have with Maid is having struggled with suicide sidality
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myself and having lost people to suicide in my own experience.
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I am very grateful now that I didn't have access
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to something like made because now there's so life is
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so much different for me now, and I'm really lucky
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in that kind of respect. But I also think for
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some of the people that I lost to suicide, usually
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people have to resort to some pretty horrific means to
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die if they're if they're trying to die by suicide,
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and I think they can be deeply traumatic, both for
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the person who dies that way and for whoever is
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left behind. And I think that having access to something
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more compassionate could really save some of those people from
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a great deal of harm. So I really feel a
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lot of tension with MADE, where I see a lot
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of possible room for harm, particularly in a Canadian context,
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from the way that it's being enacted. But I also
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I have a hard time being fully against it because
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people do die by suicide and I don't think that
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they should have to resort to really horrible means to do.
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So. Yeah, I actually had an argument, quasi argument, whatever
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argument you can have having a difference of opinion on
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social media. But it was about MADE, and it was
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about MADE in particular around mental health issues. And one
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woman came and said, well, that Made is so the
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program is so stretched in terms of how many people
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want to access it and use it that it should
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be left just for people with physical disabilities and people
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with mental health challenges should be kind of set aside.
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And my argument to her was that exactly what you
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just said, which is that you know what you're saying then,
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is that there's a difference between physical disabilities and mental
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health challenges, and one is more deserving of a kind,
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loving death. That is is more. I don't want to
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say more possible, but more guaranteed with people you love
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by your side, that that is reserved for people who
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have a certain kind of disability, and people with mental
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health challenges, who already already suffer from human rights challenges
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all the time, are relegated to doing it in secret
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and maybe not doing it in such a way that
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they complete or die by suicide, and that they have
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to do it alone, and they have to do it
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by not telling their loved ones, and so it and
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the possibility that they survive, and in surviving they have
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physically harmed their body to the degree that now the
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quality of their life is even worse than it was before.
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And I, you know, pointed out that I just didn't
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see how those two things because she was saying, well,
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they can do it anyway. I mean, the amount of
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lack of compassion that that statement had was kind of remarkable.
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And I am of the opinion that people have a
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right to choose in their lives whether they want to
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be here or they don't. I think it is our right.
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So it just it's amazes me how many people are
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able to take the issue of human rights and mental
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health and not recognize that how much they're discriminating or
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how much they are applying stigma to certain things. So
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you said you had suicide in your family.
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Yes, in my family, there have been a couple of
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suicide losses, and those losses were really profound and really
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shattering for a lot of reasons. One of them, particularly
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the person that I lost. Losing her was it was
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it completely changed the course of my life. But part
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of the pain that I carry for that is the
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way that she she died and how she was alone.
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She spent all of her life showering everybody in her
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life with so much love and care, and when she
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needed that love and care the most, nobody was there.
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She would buy herself, which really feels fills me with
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a lot of sadness. And I want to kind of
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return to something that you were saying earlier about how
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people are trying to create this kind of distinction between
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disability and mental health concerns. And I think what makes
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this really interesting is I think we know a lot
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of issues with mental distress can start with bodily kind
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of there's no easy distinction that I think can be
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made between what constitutes a solely physical disability versus something
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that's solely mental I think that's a very interesting kind
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of construction that's going on, which is really built into
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the way that we stigmatize certain kinds of people who
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who strut goal with mental health issues particularly. I think
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there are different types of stigma that go on in
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that realm that are making the way these two categories
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are being shored up is completely different, really troubling.
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You know, I just finished having a conversation with somebody
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who was talking about how, and of course this is true,
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how in society people tend to think of anybody who
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has a diagnosis that is a mental health challenge of
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any kind are suddenly reduced in their ability to speak
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for themselves, or to discern things, or to decide what
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is best for them or what they're you know, to
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make an informed choice around treatment even and what you're
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talking about is kind of the same thing, and that
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we have, we have a particular kind of stigma and
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discrimination that happens the realm of mental health.
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I think it's very much the same thing, even in
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the policy context which I was examining in the article
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that I wrote. One of the key things that I
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don't want to say surprised, because unfortunately it wasn't a surprise,
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but it was maybe an unpleasant realization is a better
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way to put it. Is how no people who may
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consider accessing the program of made mdsu MC were even
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remotely consulted. The people whose voices were prioritized were psychiatrists,
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a couple doctors, a nurse practitioner, and lawyers. But there
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were no people who would actually be impacted by this
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ex mansion or who have any kind of experience and
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knowledge that would have been really necessary for understanding how
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you keep our community safe. And I think you see
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so much of that in so many different realms, and
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it's showing up very acutely here.
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Yeah, it is actually the only industry on the planet.
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It is a business, and it's the only business on
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the planet where customer satisfaction literally has no say in
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what happens or what is offered. And in what you've
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just described happens over and over and over where they
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designed some program, or they design some institution or whatever,
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and the primary stakeholder, which is the person who would
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be accessing it as somebody who has a mental health issue,
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is never consulted as.
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To what is required.
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And you know, we come from a long history of
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the mental health industry, deciding that people who have a
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mental health challenge cannot discern what is real or what's fake,
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or what's fantasy, and so that other people have to
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do it for them, and so we lose our voice
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over and over and over, and like I said, it's
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the only industry where the consumer has no voice and
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no right to complain even half the time. What was
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your methodology that you used to create this paper.
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I primarily did a discourse analysis, So basically I sat
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with this policy document for a period of months. I
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took it everywhere with me, like I took it on
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the train. I took it, you know, in the backyard.
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I went everywhere with this document so I could become
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very very familiar with it. And then I kind of
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I went through it with the really fine tooth comb,
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trying to understand what the language was trying to accomplish
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in a sense. And one of the things that I
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noticed I kept noticing that they mentioned suicidality over and
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over again. And I was really interested by this because
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in a lot of ways, made really is assisted suicide.
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It isn't separate from suicide. It's a different form of suicide.
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Right.
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So this distinction really kind of grabbed me. And there
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was one section which was a conservative supplementary opinion where
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they mentioned suicidality twenty four times in like a very
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short number of pages. And I was really taken aback
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by this, the frequency with which it was kind of
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being evoked as this horrible boogeyman almost that we had
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to carefully, carefully craft made around. Oh yeah, very odd.
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I was very I was very interested in what that
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kind of language is doing.
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And I'm kind of thinking goes into that. Really, when
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you think about it, you're talking about made and somehow
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creating suicidality as the boobyman. Rebecca, I hate to do this,
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but we have to take a short break, folks, and
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we'll be right back with Rebecca.
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George here.
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Tani yup QUI get yuons Queen snaw Hi, everybody. My
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name is Quigate Ywon's I'm a member of the Squamish
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Nation and the yagolanis klan of the Hyda Nation. You're
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listening to co Op Radio CFROO one hundred point five FM.
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We live, work play and broadcast from the traditional ancestral
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and unseated territories of the Muskiam, Squamish, and slave with
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tooth nations.
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You're listening to ruthreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
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cfr OH one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox,
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and I have the pleasure of speaking with Rebecca Deutsch
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about her paper on Maid that is being produced as
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part of her PhD candidacy at York University. Rebecca, we
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were talking about something very odd, which is that you
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have this paper about Maid and people are talking about
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suicidality as being the boogieman. I think you called it.
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Talk more about that.
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Right, So, while I was reading a lot of the
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people who are anti made in the case of mental
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health conditions explicitly or exclusively sometimes, one of the things
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that came up over and over again was how do
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we distinguish between suicidality and a valid desire to die?
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And I want to kind of sit with that language. Yes, absolutely,
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that language is really it's very interesting because how do
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you how do you institute and understand this, like, how
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do you understand that distinction and what does producing it do?
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And I think part of what producing this distinction does
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is say that certain types of suicide are allowed, are okay,
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are acceptable and other kinds are not. I was having
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a really interesting conversation with one of my colleagues, and
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he brought up the possibility that when people apply for
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MADE MDSUMC, they might end up being funneled into involuntary
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hospitalizations if they are decided to be suicidal instead of
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a valid request, which is a really scary layer to this,
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and a layer to how the assessments are being developed,
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and we really don't have in my dissertation. I'm really
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hoping to kind of look at how this is being developed,
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but right now I feel like everything is so new
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that we don't have that understanding. And what understand me
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standing we do kind of have is psychiatrist saying that,
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you know, depression causes suicidality, and so people with depression
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maybe shouldn't be eligible, and this kind of language, which
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I think if they had said something like somebody who's
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in an acute state of distress should be with other
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kinds of access to support, that would be a very
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different claim than that we need to distinguish between suicidality
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and made.
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Yeah.
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I'm sorry, I just I can't get over the idea
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of a bunch of people sitting in a room making
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decisions on behalf of somebody who's not in the room
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about what is what is the difference between made and suicidality,
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which implies that some people who get made and ask
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for maid are sane and therefore have a right to
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participate in something that's going to end their life, but
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somebody who might have a diagnosis of a mental health
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challenge is therefore not sane and therefore not able to
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make that choice.
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I absolutely and I think it speaks to the.
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Misunderstanding about what mental health challenges mean in terms of
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how it impacts on people in their lives. The idea
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that just because somebody has a diagnosis that they can't work,
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they can't be a productive person in society, they can't
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think for themselves, they can't make decisions for themselves, is
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rampant out there. I can't tell you how many people
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I know who went into a psychiatrist's office and they said, well,
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you have bipolar blah blah blah, and therefore you're never
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going to work again in your life, and you have
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to take these meds for the rest of your life.
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And that's just simply not true. We know many, many
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people who are bipolar and have done amazing things, great
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things in their lives. So I uh, it just seems
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to be based on ideas and not on facts more
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than anything. Mm hmm.
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And I think in terms of maide some of that
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is going to come down to a value judgment. And
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I wonder as well, how much you know, I think
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of when I was younger and I first was in
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a psychiatrist's office, and how powerful and knowledgeable and important
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they seemed. And if sitting in that room, in a
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really vulnerable space, if I had been told you'll never
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be able to live a fulfilled life, You'll never be
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able to do sorry, you'll never be able to do
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whatever kinds of things it is that they chose to.
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I have had interactions like that, actually, yeah, but in
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a really vulnerable state. And then if I had been
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presented with the option of maid by that same person,
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that also feels really troubling to me. It feels like
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imbuing psychiatrists with the kind of power to choose in
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this specific context and in a lot of contexts. To
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be fair, it's really dangerous and it could do a
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lot of harm that of course psychiatrists aren't thinking about,
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and if psychiatrists and lawyers and you know and doctors
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are the only people in the room, of course, they
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aren't asking the same kind of questions that you immediately
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hit on, right, and that we are able to kind
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of discuss within the context of this conversation because they
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don't have the same kind of knowledge.
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No, and you know, and what you're talking about, would
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you just kind of frame is a conversation that really
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needs to happen between the professionals, the psychiatrists, the doctors,
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the psychologists, the social workers, and people from the mental
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health I want to say arena, but people who have
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mental health challenges about these very things. It feels sometimes
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like it's a chasm, like we have these people over
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there who are the professionals who are absolutely certain that
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they have a right and they know and they can
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discern and also view the rest of us as unable
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and incapable and fragile along the lines of you know,
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my saying we have to do a trigger warning because
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it's about suicide. But it's like, why, It's not like
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talking about suicide is going to make a bunch of
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people go and throw themselves off a cliff. It just
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doesn't happen that way, and it makes the whole sort
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of life of somebody who has a mental health challenge
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who is perhaps suicidal. It reduces it down to some
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sort of caricature as opposed to the real life things
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that are going on for that person.
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Absolutely, and I feel like some of the language even
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sanitizes it in a way that makes it difficult to
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talk about some of the bigger issues that are going on,
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like even calling it medical assistance and dying. There are
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some really interesting especially from disability spaces, there are some
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interesting critiques of that. But I think another kind of
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layer to this is while this policy is going potentially forward,
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it is kind of in a state of flux. So
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I don't want to say for sure, access to housing
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isn't necessarily being provided. Funding for community based support systems
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is so hard to come by. All of the things
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that are actually beneficial to people, And if we want
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to talk about what actually helps at reducing suffering and
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what helps at reducing suicidality and numbers of suicide, what
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we have to be willing to talk about is the
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kinds of things like access to health care, access to housing,
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access to community and care and warmth and all of
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the joyful things, not just not just access to drugs
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or involuntary hospitalization or the kinds of ways, but even
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that part of the converse they is being framed where
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it's like have they tried the medications available? It's like, well,
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have we tried housing? And like, you know, like have
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we tried making life a little bit more livable for
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people who struggle with the variety of different issues.
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It's so interesting because I just had a conversation with
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a man by the name of Jim Gottzeen, and he's
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created a paper on improving mental health outcomes. And what
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he talks about very clearly and presents in terms of
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research and studies and documentation is that it's like, you know,
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being involuntarily even voluntarily committed into a psych ward or
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being put on those psych meds or whatever have demonstrably
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worse outcomes than just leaving people alone, which tells you
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so much. I mean, we have an industry that has
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created itself into something and prop themselves up with ideas
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that aren't supported by the research out there, and then
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numbers that are out there and yet are still pushing
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those things as as secure instead of housing or going
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to an art gallery or sitting down and talking with people,
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or you know, all kinds of things that have been
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proven to be helpful and beneficial to people in times
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of crisis. So it's just interesting that that here I
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am having another conversation where the backflip of it is
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that those things that are being presented as possibilities to
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you know, divert somebody away from made are the very
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things that may in fact cause more harm in their
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lives and bring them back.
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Mm hmmm, mm hmmm. It's very It's interesting and it's
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funny how how those conversations can happen close together like that.
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For me, when that happens, it always feels like it's
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flagging something I should be paying attention to. I don't know,
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like the universe is like trying to trying to bring
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something to the front for me. But yeah, I very
401
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:28.599
much feel like there is this kind of strange I
402
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don't know if dissonance is the right word maybe, but
403
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between what people actually find supportive and the kinds of
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people who should actually be involved in these decisions and
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what is being offered and who is at the table.
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Another kind of interesting layer to this is when they
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were deciding whether Made mdsumc was ready to roll forwards
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or not. They didn't consult any Indigenous elders either, which
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is particularly troubling and and I think based on some
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of the other articles that I've read, this is a
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pattern in the way that Made has been kind of constructed,
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is that Indigenous people have been very very rarely consulted,
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and people impacted are very very rarely consulted, except for
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in maybe that kind of backpadding way that sometimes those
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consultations go where it's like, oh, we talked to someone,
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We're good now.
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Yeah, meaningful consultation has has a place, and you know,
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you know, using somebody as a token consultation is going
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to cause more more damage overall. We need to just
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take another little break here, Rebecca. But hang on, folks,
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We're gonna come back and finish this conversation with Rebecca
422
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about suicide and made.
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Hey.
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This is Mark Kilansky from Golden Shoals. You know, in
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00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.079
a world where things are constantly fed to us through
426
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.319
a screen, through an algorithm, independent radio offers music and
427
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.759
playlists made by friends, neighbors, and humans. I love it
428
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:37.000
so much, and I really want everybody to continue to
429
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:41.200
enjoy that in these modern times. Forget Spotify, forget YouTube.
430
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.279
Listen to co Op Radio one hundred point five FM
431
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.160
and co Op Radio dot Org.
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00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:00.519
Mm hmm.
433
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The street lights are bleeding through the cracks and the
434
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:13.920
blind and you're staring at the ceiling, trying to entangle
435
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:14.599
your mind.
436
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:20.200
The clock on the wall is the loudest thing in
437
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:26.000
the room, and it feels like the walls are closing
438
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:31.759
on you too. I know how the quiet can start
439
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:35.200
to scream. I know how you're trapped inside of the
440
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:38.920
awaken dream. Your hands are shaking your cow in the
441
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.680
floorboards tonight, just praying for a flicker, just a.
442
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:43.880
Little bit of light.
443
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:48.160
You carry them out and the nodbody else can't see,
444
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.720
and you're smiling for the cameras, pretending to be free,
445
00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:55.440
but as the shadow that's hiding behind your eyes and
446
00:33:55.640 --> 00:34:00.839
dock the truth underneath all of your beautiful lies to
447
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:02.920
This is a soul.
448
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:10.000
For anyone in pain, for anyone standing.
449
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:16.039
Out alone in the boring ray, when the way of
450
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:19.280
the world is too heavy a hod and your heart's
451
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:21.880
turn at heaven and your blood running cold.
452
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.639
You don't have to be brave, you don't have to
453
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.920
be strong You don't have to pretend you belonged all along.
454
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:33.440
Just try if you need to, let the tears start
455
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:34.119
to fall.
456
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.400
Yeah, this is a soul.
457
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:51.800
Broken song for so you remember the days when you
458
00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.679
trusted in Ny before every single promise that they made
459
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.320
started to break. Now you're walking through the crowds where
460
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:02.239
you are completely the alone, lack of ghost in the
461
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.400
city that you used to call home.
462
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.960
It so you, it's easy, it's so you just breathe
463
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:08.400
the thing.
464
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.320
Don't see the gravity pooling out your sleeve.
465
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:13.199
It's a heavy kind of sadness.
466
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.119
The settles in the bone, and it makes you feel
467
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:19.400
like you're entirely on your own. You've been fighting a
468
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.840
war that has no end inside, aging up in the
469
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:26.079
morning just to dread the night, and your tired.
470
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:29.320
Oh god, I know that you are tire to try
471
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:30.159
to stoke.
472
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:32.039
A flame when you run out of fire.
473
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:40.159
Yeah, this is a song for anyone inde, for anyone
474
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:45.199
standing out alone in the pouring way.
475
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.079
When the water is too.
476
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.199
Heavy to hold in, your heart tired and heavy, and
477
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:53.639
your boots running cold.
478
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.239
You don't have to be brave, You don't have.
479
00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:59.159
To be strong, You don't have to pretendy you.
480
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.480
Belong all alone, just crying.
481
00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:05.840
You need to let the tears start to fall.
482
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:09.119
Yeah, this is a soul.
483
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:15.400
For the broke, the song fores.
484
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:32.559
I won't tell you that it's all gonna be fine,
485
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:35.760
because right now it feels like the end of the light.
486
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.639
And I won't give you a cliches, a phrase it's
487
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.719
so hollow to help you'll get through all the bed
488
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:44.559
and it's just swallowed it. I will sit here in
489
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.840
the dark, right next to your chair, and I'll hold
490
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:48.719
your hands.
491
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.280
So you know someone is there.
492
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.239
We can scream at the sky, we can curse at
493
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:55.679
the floor and sail. I throw through row row and
494
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:59.559
we carry any more, because that isn't something you just
495
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:02.599
lie so. Hey, it's a storm you gotta sit through
496
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:06.480
day after day. But you are still breathing. You are
497
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.519
still here, through the terror of the down and the
498
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.400
paralyzing fear.
499
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.280
Dear, still.
500
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:22.440
Don't let god by.
501
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.079
Oh this is a.
502
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:31.639
Forail for rail standing out.
503
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:37.639
Alone in the bar. It went the latter, the.
504
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.679
So heavy and fall in your heart starting in heaven
505
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:45.039
and your blood running cold. You don't have to be brave,
506
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.960
you don't have to be strong, you don't have to pretending.
507
00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:50.119
You belonged all alone.
508
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.599
Just cry if you need to, let the two start
509
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:55.199
to fall.
510
00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:58.559
Yeah, this is a soul.
511
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:07.199
For the broken, a song for a salt. The rainfall
512
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.400
down on your face. You don't have to win every
513
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:15.519
single race. The room is getting quiet again.
514
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:21.400
The storm is slowing down, my friend, You're not alone
515
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:22.400
in the dark.
516
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:29.880
Tune Night. We're just waiting for the morning light. You,
517
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.800
We're just waiting for the light.
518
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.719
This station and the more than two hundred and fifty
519
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:46.760
across the country like it, need your support day in
520
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.079
and day out. They bring you the news that matters,
521
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.880
They play the music you won't hear anywhere else, and
522
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.920
they are part of this community. You can make sure
523
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:57.519
they get the funding they need to grow by visiting
524
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.320
mycri dot ca, where you can find all the details
525
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:05.079
about the Community Radio Initiative. It takes less than five
526
00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:07.960
minutes and a few clicks to generate an email to
527
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.880
the politicians who need to hear from you and to
528
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.000
make a difference for this community. MYCRI dot ca.
529
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:20.159
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver cop radio CFR
530
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:23.639
one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernardine Fox and I've
531
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.480
had the pleasure of speaking with Rebecca George about her
532
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:32.679
PhD candidacy and her paper on made in Canada, made
533
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:38.440
as in Medical Assistance in Dying. Rebecca, welcome back, and
534
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:42.400
one of the things that I wanted to talk about
535
00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.599
you mentioned in your paper is eugen X. Can you
536
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.039
talk a little bit about that and how that plays
537
00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:48.800
into made.
538
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:50.320
Right.
539
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:55.480
So, Canada has a very long history with eugen X,
540
00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:02.280
one that often doesn't get talked about because, sorry, when
541
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:08.159
people think about eugenics, often they think about Nazi Germany
542
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:12.760
and they don't realize how many subtle ways eugenic logics
543
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.880
have kind of worked their way throughout the way that
544
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:23.360
Canadian society has been structured. Historically. One of the major
545
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:33.519
ways that eugenics showed up was through involuntary sterilizations, involuntary
546
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:40.360
hospitalizations where people were cut off from access to other
547
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:49.440
people in their communities, which has really continued that began
548
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:55.000
in asylums, and in this kind of the way we
549
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:59.320
historically think about these horrific kind of asylums as though
550
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:05.760
we've moved so far past that moment, which we haven't
551
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:10.280
at all. It's just kind of changed faces and now
552
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:12.519
you can see a lot of that kind of coming
553
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:17.119
up in terms of I think in terms of the
554
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:22.760
way that medication is sometimes constructed and pushed on certain people.
555
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:25.880
I think you can also see it kind of in
556
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:29.480
immigration provisions, and now you can see it coming up
557
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:34.639
a lot in like genetic screening and selective abortions. And
558
00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.960
one of the arguments that's coming up in relation to
559
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:45.159
me specifically is that because certain lives are not perceived
560
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:51.280
as necessarily valuable, they're not given the same kinds of
561
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:58.760
access in terms of quality care in terms of I've
562
00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.599
already touched on how I feel like that's been a
563
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:06.039
big touch point for me. But you do see when
564
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:11.760
you look at literature that there's a strong relationship between
565
00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:19.960
disability broadly and madness specifically and poverty. And in the
566
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:24.920
case of applications we've already seen coming from a disabled space,
567
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:30.719
some of those have been very specifically about things that
568
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:38.320
could have been ameliorated through access to proper supports. So
569
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:43.079
I read about this case where somebody had a really
570
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.079
severe sensitivity to different chemicals and perfumes, and the place
571
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.840
she was living in, which was the only place she
572
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:56.840
could get subsidized living, really exposed her to a lot
573
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:02.280
of the things that were impacting her disability, and when
574
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:07.920
some of the community came together and helped with fundings
575
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:10.800
so she could stay in a hotel instead for a
576
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:16.559
period of time, she canceled her MAID requests because she
577
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:20.159
was able to access the care that she needed. So
578
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:27.119
part of the concern is that as Maid continues to
579
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:32.400
move forwards and become more of an option, different kind
580
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:39.719
of support programs could be dialed back where Maide gets
581
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:46.000
really treated as a primary kind of option. There was
582
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:50.599
a really interesting study interesting is maybe not the right word,
583
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:56.639
but in the Netherlands where a right to die translated
584
00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:05.719
into a duty to die quite quick because because by dying,
585
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:12.719
it's less expensive for certain social systems like medicare or
586
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:18.320
medical care or you know, different systems along those lines.
587
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.400
Which is an angle that I think we need to
588
00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:25.800
be particularly concerned about.
589
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.199
Yes, and the disabled community has been concerned about it.
590
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:34.400
I've heard many people talk about how their doctors start
591
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:41.320
advising them about made so they're not given the options
592
00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:43.679
to make their lives better, They're given an option to
593
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:48.719
die right. And I don't think the regular average Joe
594
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:52.920
out there is understanding what that feels like. If you
595
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.000
have a disability. At one woman I talked to had
596
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.880
a disability that meant she literally couldn't even get out
597
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:03.440
of bed unless somebody came to her house and helped
598
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:06.480
her get out of bed and dressed her and then
599
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:09.280
came back and helped her get in her pajamas and
600
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.559
put her into bed. She actually couldn't get to the
601
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.199
bathroom even on her own, so she was left to
602
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.639
literally soil herself in her bed because people weren't coming
603
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.960
to the house to help her get out of her bed,
604
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:26.360
and she was She had put in an application for
605
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:30.239
maid because she couldn't she couldn't live like that, and
606
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:33.679
because of that, because of the lack of care, her
607
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.760
illness was going to get worse and worse and worse,
608
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.400
and her children could very well end up being the
609
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.480
ones who found her dead in her bed, which it's
610
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:49.079
not an option for mothers usually to have that happen
611
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.239
if they could choose against it. And that was one
612
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.760
of the things that she found was that MAYD was
613
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:56.760
offered to her as an option.
614
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:01.239
Right And it makes me to be really sad and
615
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:06.920
concerned that made is being offered as almost a frontline
616
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:11.000
kind of treatment in some of those circumstances as opposed
617
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:15.519
to what people actually need in order to live a
618
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:22.800
full life that feels good for them. And there's there's
619
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:27.519
a very real concern that as Made continues on, some
620
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:35.559
of that could become even worse, particularly as it enters
621
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.239
kind of the popular imagination a little bit more than
622
00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:43.639
I think it has at this point, and how that
623
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:48.880
will affect politicians running from election and where they're promising
624
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:54.480
to put their funds, things like that. It's really concerning.
625
00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:01.119
What do you see is needed. I don't have to
626
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.440
have all the answers, but what are you seeing might
627
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:06.000
be something that can be put in place that might
628
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:08.199
help well.
629
00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:12.840
I think I definitely don't have all the answers, but
630
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:17.039
from where I'm sitting, what I kind of I think
631
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:20.880
is needed is a greater care and attention to what
632
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:26.559
communities are asking for. That doesn't mean that MAIDE shouldn't
633
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.000
be a part of that puzzle. As I said, I
634
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:35.880
think for some people, Made is a better option than
635
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.760
what is available to them, which could be, as I
636
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:47.679
said before, dying by suicide in more violent kind of ways.
637
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:52.719
So Made can definitely be a part of the puzzle,
638
00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:56.480
but it can't be the whole picture. What needs to
639
00:47:56.599 --> 00:48:00.840
be incorporated is a lot of care for how do
640
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.679
we show up for one another, how do we take
641
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:06.480
care of one another? How do we be in community
642
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:12.719
in ways that I just don't think we talk about enough.
643
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.000
I think we've kind of got stuck in this biomedical
644
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:22.119
framework where medicine is treated as though it has all
645
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.719
the answers, even though we live in communities, we live
646
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:31.000
in bodies, we live in spaces, like some of the
647
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:37.440
things that would help are so tactile and immediate, And
648
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.599
why isn't the same amount of care being provided to
649
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.840
all of that rich picture of what could help somebody
650
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:50.719
live a full and joyful life instead of just made?
651
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:55.000
Why isn't made just a piece of it? Right?
652
00:48:56.920 --> 00:49:00.880
No? I think that sounds those are questions to be
653
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:07.039
asking and evaluating. Do you think they'll be asked and evaluated?
654
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:14.840
I really want to say yes, But looking at the
655
00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:19.679
evidence that's coming out right now, they definitely are not
656
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:26.440
being asked in the spaces where policy is being actively
657
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:32.639
shaped and where assessment procedures are being actively developed. And
658
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:37.719
those are the spaces where these kind of questions and
659
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.400
this kind of knowledge which I think to people who
660
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:46.800
have actually had certain kinds of lived experience may come
661
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:51.599
more easily, but I think these are the spaces where
662
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:55.679
that knowledge is so deeply needed, and it's not it's
663
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:59.679
not being brought into or taken up in those spaces
664
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:01.920
in the way that really needs to be.
665
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.480
Yep, I agree, Rebecca. Thank you for coming and chatting
666
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.639
with us, and I'm out this very very important topic.
667
00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:16.840
And when you have finished your PhD and stuff and
668
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.280
you have more to talk about on this issue, please
669
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.039
get in touch with us and come back and do that.
670
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:26.800
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Like I
671
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.639
said before, you're doing such important work here and I'm
672
00:50:30.679 --> 00:50:34.280
really excited to get to be a part of this episode.
673
00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:38.400
Great, thank you. I'm very glad that you came and
674
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:42.400
we had this important conversation. So thank you and we'll
675
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:42.880
be right back.
676
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:43.239
Folks.
677
00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:47.079
Hey, folks, it's Steve ferguson your twenty first century Schizoid
678
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:50.400
Man here to invite you to join me on Tuesday
679
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.639
nights at seven pm for your weekly dose of progressive
680
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:57.480
and experimental rock. I get crazy guest callers, I fight
681
00:50:57.599 --> 00:51:00.000
the turntable, and I dig up the most obscure music
682
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:06.159
from the century and last I've got prog, metal, art, rock, mouth, rock, fusion, jazz,
683
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and psychedelia all packed into my weekly hour. You want it,
684
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I've got it. Just name it, I'll play it. That's
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00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.320
Prog Rock Alley on Tuesday nights at seven pm one
686
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:21.599
hundred point five FM CFRO, Vancouver's Coop Radio.
687
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:22.800
See you there.
688
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:30.400
I've been through storms that shook my soul. Lost in
689
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:37.239
the dark, nowhere go, I've caut me doubts. I've felt
690
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:45.199
the way over every time I walked away. But deep
691
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:51.719
inside there's still fire, the sparkle, hope They're.
692
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:56.039
On Xpire, no metal.
693
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:04.079
No matter how I choose to rise, I choose right now.
694
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:10.039
I won't break. I won't then. This is not how
695
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:11.480
much story.
696
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:20.360
I will fight for me, stand up strong. I will rise,
697
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:26.760
even when it all feels wrong. Every tear, every scar,
698
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:32.239
every feelings in my heart, they won't define the soul
699
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:33.320
in me.
700
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:41.679
I will fight for me. I will believe. I will believe.
701
00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:48.000
I've give love but lost my own. I've tried so
702
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:53.960
hard to not feel alone. But I am worth the
703
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:55.000
love I give.
704
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.360
I am here. I'm meant to live.
705
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:07.719
The road is along the crime the States, but I
706
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:14.000
refuse to let fear keys me from the life that
707
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:15.199
I deserve.
708
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:19.760
Every step I'll find my words.
709
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:27.440
I won't break, I won't bend. This is not how
710
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:36.280
a story. I will fight for me. Stand up strong.
711
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:37.679
I will rise.
712
00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:46.159
The way of feels wrong, every every spar every fieldside
713
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:46.840
in my heart.
714
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:54.639
They won't define the soul. I will fight for me.
715
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:56.320
I will believe.
716
00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.199
No more running, no more hiding.
717
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:01.920
I am done with the old silas.
718
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:05.880
I am lovey, I am free you. This is my time.
719
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.159
I will fight for me.
720
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:13.559
I will fight for me. Stand up strong.
721
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:20.599
I will rise, even when it all feels wrong, every sees.
722
00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:24.199
Every strong, every fear is in my heart.
723
00:54:24.599 --> 00:54:26.880
They will define the soul.
724
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:30.880
I will fight.
725
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:33.559
Oh me, how well buying?
726
00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:38.920
I will fight, Oh will bling?
727
00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:44.119
This is not time. I will fight for me.
728
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:57.400
Co Op radim Vancouver's community radio station for fifty years
729
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:04.000
with great local music, arts, public affairs, many languages, and
730
00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:08.280
all kinds of great stuff. Support us for a spring
731
00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:12.239
membership drive troublew co opradio dot org and learn how
732
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:12.880
to become a member.
733
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.960
Today, Today, Today, nice job.
734
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:18.599
You're listening to Rethreading Madness on Vancouver co Op Radio
735
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:22.239
c FR one hundred point five FM. I'm Bernadine Fox
736
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:25.320
and that's our show. My thanks to Rebecca Deutsch for
737
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:28.719
having this great conversation with me about maid and suicidality.
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00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:32.760
Rebecca is a PhD candidate and gender feminist and women's
739
00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:36.639
studies at York University. It was a refreshing chat about
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00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:40.400
what is often a serious discussion without resorting to all
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00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:42.719
of that. If you find you are in need of
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00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:47.079
resources around made or suicidality, don't hesitate to reach out
743
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:49.920
to us here on Rethreading Madness and we will connect
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00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:54.840
you with information or resources. Music today was by Sherry Ulrich,
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00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:58.719
Tom O'Dell and Fearless Soul. And to you our listeners,
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00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.480
thank you for joining us today. Stay safe out there.
747
00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:06.159
You've just listened to Rethreading Madness, where we dare to
748
00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:09.079
change how we think about mental health. We air live
749
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:12.480
on Vancouver co Op Radio CFR one hundred point five
750
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.239
FM every Tuesday at five pm or online at co
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00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:20.199
opradio dot org. If you have questions or feedback about
752
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:23.199
this program, I want to share your story or have
753
00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:25.280
something to say to us, We want to hear from you.
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00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:28.960
You can reach us by email Rethreading Madness at co
755
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:32.360
Opradio dot Org. This is Bernardine Fox. We'll be back
756
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:32.880
next week.
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00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:40.719
Until then, when I've ever been father, No, what the
758
00:56:40.920 --> 00:56:47.800
hell I'm gonna do when I can't seem to find.
759
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:48.639
My way.
760
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:52.280
Under over too?
761
00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:57.039
Just when I'm ready and.
762
00:56:57.320 --> 00:56:59.480
Give thee.
763
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.400
They are when we turn out the lights in It's
764
00:57:04.519 --> 00:57:12.400
all right, it's all right. Don't you really be alright?
765
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.039
Why don't I always believe?
766
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:22.440
But when you journey, everything's gonna be alright?
767
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:24.599
Yeah?
768
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:33.039
Why don't I wonder how you know?
769
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.119
Surely you don't have all of the facts.
770
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:46.239
You could be just making it up. Why don't I
771
00:57:46.599 --> 00:57:52.679
ever think of that? It's some kind imagine in the
772
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:58.320
words that you read saying, baby, take it.
773
00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:04.760
From me, it's all right, it's all right, don't too
774
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:08.559
real be alright.
775
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:10.480
Quite a while?
776
00:58:10.519 --> 00:58:13.960
Always believe that when you tell.
777
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:23.079
Everything's gonna be off right, everything's gonna be off right
778
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:27.320
than anyone else.
779
00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:32.280
It's such a cliche, just words people say.
780
00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:33.840
To be nice.
781
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:42.920
Somehow, and nice far from ye. I'm convinced you're.
782
00:59:06.199 --> 00:59:13.079
When I'm weary and so tired, when I'm worn out
783
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:21.360
and done, when I fall off the why again, no
784
00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:23.880
more strange than get back on.
785
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:26.599
There?
786
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:33.079
You are with that voice in my saying the words,
787
00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:35.239
and I even hit.
788
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:40.599
It's all right, it's all right, don't.
789
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:46.599
Really alright, quite wild
790
00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:54.039
Than when they tell me everything's gonna be off right,
791
00:59:55.880 --> 00:59:57.800
everything's gonna be