Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
0:00
Well, thank you, Leslie. I am so so delighted that you are going to open up this series for us. Thank you for joining. Oh, you're very welcome. Happy to be here. Thank you. Um, so I first wanted to ask you. So out of the closet Lecture Series is a partner on this podcast and is helping us present these histories, these 25 plus years of queer activism and I wanted to ask you, why you as a out of the closet lecture series, what is your role exactly founder, corps leader,
LeZlie Lee Kam:
0:34
I always wanted to have something out there that's attached to my name. That said out of the closet, because so many of us who are of a certain age are now going back into the closet, to as lgbtqi plus seniors, because we have to choose between being our true selves, our real selves, or going back into the closet to get good health care. And that's why I named my business and the lecture series out of the closet. And it's really important for me that this podcast is coming under the auspices of out of the closet, because we are looking at, so I'm going to use the word queer instead of the whole acronym respectfully. So we're looking at hearing the stories of queer seniors square elders, who have been doing at least 25 years of queer activism. And that's not easy work to do. And it's getting harder and harder to do it. Some people talk about resiliency, queer seniors have cornered the market on resumes, because it's hard enough being queer, and then your role. So if we're looking at all the intersections of our various forms of oppression, and the fact that we are still out there fighting the good fight at least 25 years later, for myself, it's I'm now in my 45th year of activism. So I'm a lot older than I look, I know you can't see me, but you can hear my lovely voice. Yeah, yes. So it's really important for out of the closet, Lecture Series support now on this type of project, because people need to hear specially query you need to hear this, this kind of history, and from a variety and a diversity of voices. Mm hmm. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely. And, and I was describing you as such a core of this whole project and the heart of this project, also the way that you've connected us with many of the voices in the in the folks who are joining us in this series, like you said, and bringing in a diversity of folks from lots of different walks of life, who have 25 plus years, so many years, to attest to, or as you said many more.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:18
And I wanted to ask you, just in terms of how queer elder stories and experiences are marginalized within wider conversations about to us LGBTQ plus rights. This is something I think I am just starting to learn more about. And I wanted to ask you, if you could just share a bit with listeners how that kind of marginalization occurs within the queer community itself?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
3:43
Well, just to add that there's more than one queer community. So I always refer to communities with a capital S. And one of the projects that I've been working on since 2016, is the youth elders project. And that's a queer youth elders project that happens under the auspices of buddies in bad times theatre. And it's the first time in Canada that we're aware of, that this kind of project is happening, where it's intergenerational, and queer youth and queer elders and everybody else in between. We're all working together and sharing our stories. And it's really important for queer youth to know what's happened before. And for us to work together to change the future, especially now during COVID. And when you asked about, you know, queer senior stories being marginalized, our stories are not even out there. It's only been within I would say it's well since. Yep, the youth tell the story. project started, the stories are becoming more public, and queer youth are now asking they're actually wanting to know more about what happened to us how I mean, it's because of us that a lot of queer youth are here today. And a lot of all these rights that are happening for queer people. And for example, pride in Toronto happened as a result of the activism of those of us today who work were used back then. And now we acquire seniors and many queer communities tend to forget that one day you two if you're lucky, will be a queer senior. So how do you want to be treated and hearing our stories is really important as a foundation for us to work together moving forward. Almost 4000 seniors have died in long term care homes in Ontario. Only in Ontario, nevermind the rest of Canada, and how many of those seniors are queer seniors. So we are dying, alone, afraid, isolated, and invisibly. So I am working with the Ministry of seniors affairs and accessibility. And this is a ministry that's supposed to represent all seniors, they have yet to publicly acknowledge the existence of queer seniors. So it's a sad state of affairs when those you know, the people in power, who were supposed to be taking care of us can't even bring themselves to acknowledge publicly that we exist. So if, if that level of government, we are not acknowledged, our existence is ignored. Imagine what happens to us when we're in a facility where we have to hide, and during COVID, when we don't even have visitors, because chosen families are not recognized as essential caregivers. So this project is really coming out at a time where queer seniors need to have that kind of support and to need to know that our lives are being celebrated. And the work that we have done is not in vain, and that we are being appreciated.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
7:42
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I always I really hope that part of the series is just expressing that gratitude as well, of having that intergenerational conversation and expressing just the deep, deep well of gratitude for all of us advocacy work, and recognizing that the work continues. And, of course, seniors are with us, like you said, and very few governments are recognizing that. So the final question is very much related to just how do we put to the center and we speaking from a place of privilege? How do we put to the center queer elders, like you've mentioned in terms of increasing needs for equitable health, end of life care, all those things that were seniors are are facing right now?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
8:29
Well, the bottom line is acknowledging our existence. You know, I started saying we are not unicorns. We're not mythical beings. We many of us are living on the brink of poverty, many of us our health is failing. And I know I go back to seeing the impact of COVID. But I'm really excited about this podcast project, because people need to hear our stories and our stories are not always Poor me stories. Our stories are also you know, uplifting, and are an example of what you can work towards. Because I am convinced that within every single one of us who is queer, there is that power to make change happen. And you can listen to queer seniors who are still activists. So think about if you're a queer youth, where do you see yourself in 10 1520 years? You know, so you have some you have a goal, to move towards. This is what your life can continue to be celebratory, and you can still be an activist. Even though you're getting older. You're only can you only get better when you get older.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
10:00
That's amazing. Thank you for bringing that element of joy to it as well, because you're so right. I mean, we can focus on the really the huge challenges, but I also have been laughing and having fun and enjoying hearing these stories as I've been recording them. Like he truly just having such joy. And also, like you said, like finding finding communities. And, you know, being in public and being in demos like there's, there's so much amazing stuff to celebrate. So I really Oh, sorry, go ahead, please.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
10:37
Good to say all the quiz seniors that I've recommended. I have known personally, and I worked with them. And I know if you can't love, you cannot do this work. If you don't have a sense of humor, if you don't have that resiliency, you can't do this work. And on the bottom line is self care. So we must always remember to take care of ourselves.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
11:04
Thank you so much, Leslie, I really appreciate you taking the time to sit with me and to have this conversation to set up what's to come. I thank you for all the work you do. And thank you for connecting us. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. You're very welcome. And it's a pleasure working with you. Thanks likewise
0:00
Well, thank you, Leslie. I am so so delighted that you are going to open up this series for us. Thank you for joining. Oh, you're very welcome. Happy to be here. Thank you. Um, so I first wanted to ask you. So out of the closet Lecture Series is a partner on this podcast and is helping us present these histories, these 25 plus years of queer activism and I wanted to ask you, why you as a out of the closet lecture series, what is your role exactly founder, corps leader,
LeZlie Lee Kam:
0:34
I always wanted to have something out there that's attached to my name. That said out of the closet, because so many of us who are of a certain age are now going back into the closet, to as lgbtqi plus seniors, because we have to choose between being our true selves, our real selves, or going back into the closet to get good health care. And that's why I named my business and the lecture series out of the closet. And it's really important for me that this podcast is coming under the auspices of out of the closet, because we are looking at, so I'm going to use the word queer instead of the whole acronym respectfully. So we're looking at hearing the stories of queer seniors square elders, who have been doing at least 25 years of queer activism. And that's not easy work to do. And it's getting harder and harder to do it. Some people talk about resiliency, queer seniors have cornered the market on resumes, because it's hard enough being queer, and then your role. So if we're looking at all the intersections of our various forms of oppression, and the fact that we are still out there fighting the good fight at least 25 years later, for myself, it's I'm now in my 45th year of activism. So I'm a lot older than I look, I know you can't see me, but you can hear my lovely voice. Yeah, yes. So it's really important for out of the closet, Lecture Series support now on this type of project, because people need to hear specially query you need to hear this, this kind of history, and from a variety and a diversity of voices. Mm hmm. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely. And, and I was describing you as such a core of this whole project and the heart of this project, also the way that you've connected us with many of the voices in the in the folks who are joining us in this series, like you said, and bringing in a diversity of folks from lots of different walks of life, who have 25 plus years, so many years, to attest to, or as you said many more.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
3:18
And I wanted to ask you, just in terms of how queer elder stories and experiences are marginalized within wider conversations about to us LGBTQ plus rights. This is something I think I am just starting to learn more about. And I wanted to ask you, if you could just share a bit with listeners how that kind of marginalization occurs within the queer community itself?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
3:43
Well, just to add that there's more than one queer community. So I always refer to communities with a capital S. And one of the projects that I've been working on since 2016, is the youth elders project. And that's a queer youth elders project that happens under the auspices of buddies in bad times theatre. And it's the first time in Canada that we're aware of, that this kind of project is happening, where it's intergenerational, and queer youth and queer elders and everybody else in between. We're all working together and sharing our stories. And it's really important for queer youth to know what's happened before. And for us to work together to change the future, especially now during COVID. And when you asked about, you know, queer senior stories being marginalized, our stories are not even out there. It's only been within I would say it's well since. Yep, the youth tell the story. project started, the stories are becoming more public, and queer youth are now asking they're actually wanting to know more about what happened to us how I mean, it's because of us that a lot of queer youth are here today. And a lot of all these rights that are happening for queer people. And for example, pride in Toronto happened as a result of the activism of those of us today who work were used back then. And now we acquire seniors and many queer communities tend to forget that one day you two if you're lucky, will be a queer senior. So how do you want to be treated and hearing our stories is really important as a foundation for us to work together moving forward. Almost 4000 seniors have died in long term care homes in Ontario. Only in Ontario, nevermind the rest of Canada, and how many of those seniors are queer seniors. So we are dying, alone, afraid, isolated, and invisibly. So I am working with the Ministry of seniors affairs and accessibility. And this is a ministry that's supposed to represent all seniors, they have yet to publicly acknowledge the existence of queer seniors. So it's a sad state of affairs when those you know, the people in power, who were supposed to be taking care of us can't even bring themselves to acknowledge publicly that we exist. So if, if that level of government, we are not acknowledged, our existence is ignored. Imagine what happens to us when we're in a facility where we have to hide, and during COVID, when we don't even have visitors, because chosen families are not recognized as essential caregivers. So this project is really coming out at a time where queer seniors need to have that kind of support and to need to know that our lives are being celebrated. And the work that we have done is not in vain, and that we are being appreciated.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
7:42
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I always I really hope that part of the series is just expressing that gratitude as well, of having that intergenerational conversation and expressing just the deep, deep well of gratitude for all of us advocacy work, and recognizing that the work continues. And, of course, seniors are with us, like you said, and very few governments are recognizing that. So the final question is very much related to just how do we put to the center and we speaking from a place of privilege? How do we put to the center queer elders, like you've mentioned in terms of increasing needs for equitable health, end of life care, all those things that were seniors are are facing right now?
LeZlie Lee Kam:
8:29
Well, the bottom line is acknowledging our existence. You know, I started saying we are not unicorns. We're not mythical beings. We many of us are living on the brink of poverty, many of us our health is failing. And I know I go back to seeing the impact of COVID. But I'm really excited about this podcast project, because people need to hear our stories and our stories are not always Poor me stories. Our stories are also you know, uplifting, and are an example of what you can work towards. Because I am convinced that within every single one of us who is queer, there is that power to make change happen. And you can listen to queer seniors who are still activists. So think about if you're a queer youth, where do you see yourself in 10 1520 years? You know, so you have some you have a goal, to move towards. This is what your life can continue to be celebratory, and you can still be an activist. Even though you're getting older. You're only can you only get better when you get older.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
10:00
That's amazing. Thank you for bringing that element of joy to it as well, because you're so right. I mean, we can focus on the really the huge challenges, but I also have been laughing and having fun and enjoying hearing these stories as I've been recording them. Like he truly just having such joy. And also, like you said, like finding finding communities. And, you know, being in public and being in demos like there's, there's so much amazing stuff to celebrate. So I really Oh, sorry, go ahead, please.
LeZlie Lee Kam:
10:37
Good to say all the quiz seniors that I've recommended. I have known personally, and I worked with them. And I know if you can't love, you cannot do this work. If you don't have a sense of humor, if you don't have that resiliency, you can't do this work. And on the bottom line is self care. So we must always remember to take care of ourselves.
Brigitte Natalka Ahimsa Pawliw-Fry:
11:04
Thank you so much, Leslie, I really appreciate you taking the time to sit with me and to have this conversation to set up what's to come. I thank you for all the work you do. And thank you for connecting us. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. You're very welcome. And it's a pleasure working with you. Thanks likewise
