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Hello and welcome to the Psych2 Practice Podcast, your one-stop for practical and useful clinical information, masterful insight from experts in the field, and a guide to daily living.
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I'm your host, Paul Wagner, and joining me, Ray Cursor.
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And, you know, Ray, I thought we could do maybe a little bit of a deviation from our typical kind of podcast episode where a lot of times we're kind of pre-planning an episode and going in and we're both talking about the same topic.
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But I'd like to do a little bit of a kind of a question and answer.
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So kind of laying in, you know, I I don't know that I would say early in my career, but so earlier in my career.
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And aspects of like through our conversations here have really brought about some insight that I don't think I would have gotten otherwise.
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And I think it'd be really interesting to have a conversation kind of going into like what insights you've gained throughout your career, and maybe talking to individuals at various points in their career, but kind of whether that's diversifying income streams or being able to talk about the idea of moving from maybe a group practice into a private practice and just kind of exploring some of the space that mental health has to offer beyond the therapy room and kind of what are the things to maybe question or think about, or at the very least, things you questioned and thought about before making some transitions or recommendations you make to individuals come into you.
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So I thought that'd be a fun topic to get into.
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Yeah, I think it's a great topic.
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I mean, I I think you know, a lot of those decisions and you know things that we think about beyond just therapy, I think come from mentors most often.
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Like, you know, I mean, I I was lucky I had certain people who you know maybe pushed or guided me in certain ways that helped with some of that.
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So yeah, I think it's a great topic.
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I mean, I think that sometimes we you know maybe feel that we're trapped into one kind of role.
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And I think there's a lot in mental health that we can look at.
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And I I I don't know that there's one singular pipeline into mental health.
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There's very diverse ones, but I think that, you know, for individuals maybe in the clinical side of things, an early stop in their career can be into community-based mental health systems and kind of those larger organizations, which I think fulfill a really important and significant need there, but also just the volume of individuals that could they see can really be challenging.
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And so I I guess um if an individual is in that, I guess maybe in a setting like that, you know, they're maybe out of grad school and they're finally kind of like maybe they got licensed and they're entering into the field and starting like you know, first therapy caseload.
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Um, and uh, I'll just I'm gonna, I guess, say community-based mental health.
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What do you think are the uh the the insights to be gained from a setting like that?
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And you know, if an individual then starts to question, can I start to look elsewhere?
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When do you think might be too like too soon, or wouldn't you also maybe is like, hey, maybe you've kind of stagnated and like grown a little bit too comfortable and like maybe it's time to take a risk?
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And so I guess any thoughts on either end of that?
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Yeah, I think that I think that's a great question.
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I mean, I think that you know those settings, whether it's community mental health or people who are doing school-based mental health or whatever it is, I would say just kind of public organizations in general.
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I think they're great places to start.
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I mean, I I spent my time in in many of them and um cherished it.
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Like, I mean, I think really it there were there was a great part of my my career and development there.
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But but I think it starts with trying to get ourselves to start asking what we're getting from it, you know, or what we want from it.
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Like I think that, you know, and again, I, you know, we've we talked about the idea of mentors.
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I was lucky I had mentors who, you know, they were getting me to think while I was in those roles.
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Like, what do you want to learn while you're here?
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Like when it was community mental health, they were like, listen, there's a chance of diversity here that you're not gonna see in other places.
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So it gave me a chance to work with different populations and different diagnoses and challenged me to take some risks under the broader umbrella of an organization to maybe find my interests a little bit.
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And when I worked in public education, same thing.
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Like it was, yeah, I was lucky I had supervisors who were like, hey, you should try this.
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And so I think those settings are great for us to start and let us start filling out where we're good and maybe when we're not.
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Like, you know, I've shared a bunch of times, I'm not good at couples therapy, not not my thing.
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Well, my experience with that started there.
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Like I did couples therapy and I had good supervision, and it just never never felt right for me.
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Like it just wasn't something that I I was I really felt comfortable with.
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That experience was wonderful and it was a safe place to do that.
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So I think, you know, I think early on in those careers, we should we should take advantage of it and ask ourselves, okay, what do I want to take challenges in?
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I don't know that there's a timeline on when it's right to move on from that.
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I I have an opinion in that I do think people try to move from that too fast.
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I think it's, you know, we, you know, there's more money to be made.
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There's, you know, probably less hectic jobs to be in.
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But you know, kind of what we I think tell people in therapy, like sometimes we have to tolerate that stress.
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And that's not what a lot of people want to hear, but you know, I'm glad I did it for a time period where my decision to move was I exhausted my opportunities.
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And so for me, it was like, what else do I want to gain while I'm here?
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What else can I provide here that is is going to be an option that's gonna help kind of my career growth?
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And I made this decision to move from that when I kind of, you know, I think you may have said the word stagnant, so that's in my head, but where I felt stagnant.
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Like there was there were weren't other opportunities.
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The upward growth opportunities were not the direction that I knew I wanted to go for my career.
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So I think one, we have to stick it out long enough to make sure we really do get a diverse experience because it's invaluable.
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I mean, it it really just is.
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But then also when we when we hit that point where it's like, okay, what else is here?
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Um, and you know, for me it was, you know, I I knew I didn't want at that point to go into a a nonprofit supervision role.
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That wasn't uh where I was at.
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I still wanted to advance my clinical skills.
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I wasn't advancing them though.
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Like it was so we got to a point where like I in supervision, I didn't feel I was gaining anything else.
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So that that helped me make my decision.
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But you know, I I did those types of jobs for you know for several years before I was like, okay, now it's time to to maybe shift and and move into something else.
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And when an when an individual is in a setting like that, again, whether it's a school system or the larger community-based organizations, and if whether or not I I think the community-based organizations have a great access to various forms of supervision, but if there's a hesitation or reservation with maybe leaning in or getting like when you're talking about you have great mentors, yeah.
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And if someone maybe whether from a uh just a lack of connectedness, or maybe they just maybe it's not the best mentorship, how do you think someone who's maybe in a position like that could recognize when they have you know exhausted their clinical skill?
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And a part of that, you know, when you said individuals maybe looking to deviate earlier, I I didn't even think about this, but maybe even the consideration of outward supervision while still maintaining a role within there comparatively to continuing on within the organization itself.
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And I don't know that back when I was in a QB-based mental health system that I would have ever considered that.
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But you know, as you're describing that, I'm thinking about not have having mentorship.
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Is I guess what are some of those factors that you think individuals could benefit from considering there?
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Yeah, that's that's I mean, I I like the I idea of kind of that that outward kind of supervision model.
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It's interesting.
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I I don't know that I ever had to do that, but I did do that in the sense of like, you know, I when I was in one community mental health setting, I actually had a great supervisor.
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Like he was uh ultimately he he was really good.
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Like he he let me really expand my skills, he challenged my my thinking, like so that was a good experience.
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But but he was also limited.
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Like, so I wanted to to train in some specific at that point in time exposure techniques that I didn't have much experience in.
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And this was before I went back for my doctorate.
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In fact, I just got my master's degree.
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And so you know, I ended up reaching out and finding other people to do some consulting with and found somebody actually at a a neighboring agency that was was willing to sit down and it was informal, like it wasn't like we were sharing case notes, but gave me pointers, gave me things to read, gave me some ideas of of strategies.
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So that was not a necessary thing for me, but it was something where I didn't want to change environments because I had so many opportunities.
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Like the other that the environment was still good, but I needed to kind of to reach out a little further.
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So I think that's a great option to do.
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I I also think people have to make sure they ask.
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Um, yeah, I I was very direct in telling people, like, you know, this is what I I I want.
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And yes, I could probably be more independent, but I did have a little of a trajectory in my mind of some things I wanted to do.
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So I I wanted to make sure that I was getting the supervision.
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And so making sure you ask, and I think there is a reality of you know, some agencies may not be able to do that.
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And and then it is, you know, is it something that can be outsourced?
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But with that could come costs.
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Like you may have, you know, paying for supervision or consultation, that's an expense.
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Yeah, but that might also make a decision, is it time for me to to move?
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And you know, I I think we've said this on other episodes, but it's this idea of running toward, not running away from.
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So like I always made this kind of idea in when I was when I was making a change, what was I running toward?
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Like, was there an agency that might have been able to meet those needs?
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And and I knew at that point in my career I wasn't ready to go on my own, I wasn't ready to go into other areas.
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So I I still wanted that support.
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I I knew I needed to broaden myself out.
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But yeah, I did make choices.
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Like I I was in a IBHS service, which it wasn't called that at that point in time, but was in that for a while and learned a lot and was challenged.
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And then I had to kind of reach out and then ended up going into a partial program uh where I worked for a while.
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And you know, it it was a necessary move and created a different level of experience for me.
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Um, but it wasn't that I didn't like where I was at, it was just the opportunity was better to try another agency.
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And when you when you got to that point where you were starting to look and like diversifying, like I I guess what did you see as those potential pathways?
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And so like if it was a deviating away from the type of agency that you started in, like you talked about partial, you talked about um IBHS and still struggle with that acronym and it's all it'll always be PHRS in my head and I have to translate it as I'm talking about it.
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But I I guess what are like what were those options that you were looking at, or like what do you see as viable kind of uh landing points from kind of maybe a and I'm generalizing here but talking about a starting position with community-based or school-based systems, but I guess if we're developing beyond that, what do you think are the options that you considered?
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Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
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I'm not sure I considered a whole lot.
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Like I think in in hindsight, it's I I I like there were a lot of things, but yeah, I I'm I'm gonna go back to just having a lot of conversations and mentors that that I I could talk things over with.
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And so I don't know that I was like that I knew these ideas that I was going into, but I just had enough conversations and and honestly, something that I know is not feasible for everybody, but you know, I I was lucky I had the chance to go to conferences, and I went to conferences and just talked to a lot of people, and you know, was would talk to book editors and go, you know, you're a psychologist.
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Like, how did you get into being an acquisition editor and a book publisher?
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Like, and just wanting to like pick people's brains about what was there.
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And I think I think I still do that.
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Like I still find things that are out there, right?
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That that we don't think about.
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And so, I mean, I think there's a lot of avenues.
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I mean, I think, you know, for me it was like learning about the idea that people presented and went out there and and had a a side job where they got paid to present.
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And when you first start, that's not a good income.
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Like, I mean, it's there's a lot of free presenting that you do.
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But over time, that that can be a a good thing.
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And it's been a good part of my career.
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And then talking to people who were writing and you know, wrote it, and I've written a lot of articles for nothing, and I've written books that I I've been able to have royalties off of.
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And you know, not that that's life-changing income, but it it's still a way to diversify.
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And so I I think just talking to different people and finding out like consulting jobs, like you know, how many people in mental health, you know, might sit on a board for something, or you know, you know, I've had consult like contracting jobs where I've consulted in the development of certain programs and reviewed them.
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I've been a manuscript reviewer for book publishers, test development, like all of these things where you know they're they're out there.
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Like, and and I again they kind of evolved.
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And you know, for me, it was always like I would hear of something and then go, oh, I'm gonna try, I I want to try it.
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So, you know, I was I was a school psychologist maybe year two, and one of the tests that I used was in it was getting renormed.
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Like, so it was going through that process, and they were looking for people to be part of that.
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And so I did.
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I was like, great, like I'm gonna, you know, I get paid to give the test, so I made a little extra money.
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Uh, somewhere, my name's probably in the manual of the test, which is kind of a nice thing when you're brand new.
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But like again, it was like seeing those things, being aware of what was was going on, and then and then taking advantage of it and trying it out.
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And and I've done that a few times for tests.
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Probably wouldn't do it now in my career, like it would be less probably less likely with with way my schedule is, but early on, that was fantastic.
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So, yeah, I think there's a ton.
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Like, I mean, I think it's just a matter of again looking, asking around, finding out what's there.
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And that might lead to you know, maybe another practice, but it also could be a lot of good ways to just supplement income.
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I I'm surprised how many colleagues of mine right now are consultants with AI companies, like tons of them that are you know doing work on you know making sure the language is correct and testing out different things, like maybe report writers or AI that turns you know your conversation to notes and being a proofreader for that.
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What a wonderful opportunity for someone that's not part of your your clinical day that you can still have an opportunity.
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And and those exist.
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I mean, I think that's so it's just a matter of looking.
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And I'm so happy you kind of said that because when and it was probably more my my bachelor's program when kind of the first understanding that there was more than just psychologists and it was counseling, so short, like all these various avenues.
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Yeah.
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And it it was kind of shared though that this idea of like, oh, and like the apex of that is private practice.
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Right.
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And like, you know, it's kind of going at like that's when you know you've made it.
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And really kind of there's so many different pieces, whether it's it's in conjunction with the potential of a private practice, maybe you're still, you know, you're in a maybe you're not even performing clinically anymore, and maybe you're going, you know, you are in that full-time, you know, uh acquisition editor for uh book publisher or other things along that line.
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So really kind of being open to kind of not only staying within the clinical role, but being able to develop and explore these other outside avenues.
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And you know, I think you at home, you listeners at home, like the podcast, I think is a great example of like our conversation, just being able to, and I know we've talked about the the development there, but truly, at least for myself personally, this was the springboard outside of just the clinical, you know, therapy sessions and being able to engage in mental health in a different way.
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And you know, from there's more opportunities, you know.
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I've I've now given a presentation, you know, you know, being able to, you know, talking about psych to practice for the continuing education side of things.
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So really I think being open to some of those risks and also not taking uh going back to what you said earlier, and I think also Jana Parker's episode, like I think she mentioned like she went into private practice and actually left it early because it felt like there wasn't that skill set that's there.
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And I think we need to be gradual in our kind of deviation away from groups that are supportive.
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And there is a point in time where I do think we can stand alone, but that is not earlier in the career as much as we might like it to be.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I I I think the whole private practice thing's a whole other yeah, it's just a whole other beast.
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And it's it's something I think a lot of people think they want.
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And and it, you know, for me it was interesting.
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Like, so I you know, I've owned other businesses before I owned a psychology business.
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So like I had some business sense behind me just because from a a pretty young age I I I always had kind of that interest in entrepreneurship and those types of things.
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So I I had businesses that had no relevance to the field of psychology.
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And interestingly, I never even thought I wanted a private practice.
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Like that, like my my evolution in private practice happened by being a professor first.
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So I I was I had left public education, took a professorship, and um was teaching.
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And part of that role was I had a a f a flex day that I was allowed to do clinical work.
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And so I opened a small office to keep my clinical skills sharp while I I taught.
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And uh, you know, within, I don't know, four or five months, like I had a huge wait list.
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Like, I mean, I was only seeing about six or seven people a day on on that day that I had.
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So it was like it was easy to get a wait list.
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So I had actually talked to the the university or the college that I was teaching at and said, you know, hey, is there any chance like I can kind of expand that time?
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And so ended up making some adjustments and then had two days and used that for some some other research and stuff as well.
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But that never let my wait list go down.
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And so after a while, I was like, you know what, I like this.
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I still love being a clinician, didn't really want to give that up.
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And so that was the decision point for me of okay, like I think I should kind of shift gears here a little bit.
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And so I started that transition and never thought I wanted a group practice, you know, but it was I I found the business part I had known, which really helped.
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Like I understood budgets and the fact that, you know, I'm just because I'm collecting X amount of dollars doesn't mean that goes in my pocket.
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Like there's a lot of expense.
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And I understood that there were no vacation days.
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Like there are a lot of those things where you know I was prepared for that.
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And I don't know that we that people always are.
00:23:00.909 --> 00:23:05.149
Like I think sometimes they kind of go in and think, oh, like, yeah, I'm gonna take a vacation.
00:23:05.389 --> 00:23:06.909
That's a week you don't get paid.
00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:08.589
Um, like you make no money that week.
00:23:08.669 --> 00:23:09.949
So you have to budget for that.
00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:16.669
Like, so I I went in with that advantage, being able to do it, but really never thought I wanted a group practice.
00:23:16.749 --> 00:23:31.469
And then, you know, once I did go full-time on my own, it was probably another six months from that, where it was um, you know, I sat down and was like, okay, like my wait list is about 12 months at that point.
00:23:31.949 --> 00:23:36.109
I'm like, maybe I'll bring a part-time person to cut that back.
00:23:36.429 --> 00:23:39.069
And then so for me, it organically grew.
00:23:39.229 --> 00:23:44.269
So it was, it wasn't this like going in and just, oh, I'm going to do this big practice.
00:23:44.429 --> 00:23:46.349
It really kind of went in stages.
00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:53.629
And the business knowledge, which is in is just absolutely necessary for people that want to do this.
00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:55.149
I at least had that.
00:23:55.229 --> 00:24:01.869
Like I under like I said, I understood cash flow statements and budgets and all those financial things.
00:24:02.109 --> 00:24:07.789
I I knew a lot of that, which I I think gave me an edge early on.
00:24:08.189 --> 00:24:08.669
Absolutely.
00:24:08.989 --> 00:24:23.309
And I I know just for me personally, and that you know, you listeners at home, you know, I talked about having ADHD before, and that that's one of the things that when I think back, didn't recognize how important and valuable it is for me.
00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:25.789
I'm so grateful I don't need to worry about the billing.
00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:31.869
I'm so grateful I don't need to worry about some of these other pieces, with just kind of the nature of being in the group practice.
00:24:31.949 --> 00:24:39.149
And also the idea of not needing to worry about like even be for service, you know, at the the benefit of being salary.
00:24:39.229 --> 00:24:41.309
And, you know, uh, there's pros and cons to that.
00:24:41.389 --> 00:24:43.869
You know, there's the the earning potential.
00:24:44.349 --> 00:24:52.429
But the idea that I don't need to keep track of that and it's consistent as long as I'm hitting these certain metrics, and you know, thankfully it I continue to.
00:24:52.589 --> 00:24:56.349
Um and I I can have that reliability.
00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:11.149
And so I think that business sense is such an important piece because I know when we started talking about psych to practice and developing further, there was a bit of like a deer in the headlights with some of the conversations when we're talking about, you know, like the idea of like, what is an S-corp?
00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:15.549
I have no, and so it's kind of taking on some of these lofty ideas.
00:25:15.629 --> 00:25:31.869
And again, if if I were doing that individually, even if it was a sole proprietorship, I then need to understand all the ins and outs of a sole proprietorship comparatively to an LLC, like those elements of that vague awareness, but enough that I'm willing to kind of go and rely on myself.
00:25:32.109 --> 00:25:32.589
I don't know.
00:25:32.749 --> 00:25:38.669
And so I my concept early on was like, oh, I guess you know, private practice is when you know you've made it.
00:25:38.829 --> 00:25:38.989
Right.
00:25:39.229 --> 00:25:47.069
And it's very much shifted into that's a lot that I don't necessarily know that I want to keep and manage and maintain in this way.
00:25:47.149 --> 00:25:49.149
And it frees me up to then pursue other aspects.
00:25:49.229 --> 00:25:57.309
Kind of like you know, the podcast and growing into the continuum education side that really is an interest that I never really knew that was there or feasible.
00:25:57.469 --> 00:26:00.509
So um, yeah, diversity is an important piece here.
00:26:00.749 --> 00:26:01.149
Oh, yeah.
00:26:01.229 --> 00:26:04.109
I mean, I think I think that's the the piece that's important.
00:26:04.189 --> 00:26:15.709
And and you know, I I don't know, I I think for some people, like private practice or independent practice seems like this this thing we're supposed to attain.
00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:19.629
And yeah, I I tell people all the time, it's not that's not for everyone.
00:26:19.709 --> 00:26:43.389
I mean, I I've consulted with gosh, I don't even know how many practices, and you know, it it's interesting because you know, how many people really, you know, it some think they make more money doing it, and they're kind of like, and then then I kind of go like, well, let's kind of look at like you know, your budget, and they're like, oh my gosh, I make 30% less than I did when I worked for somebody else.
00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:58.509
And yeah, like it's like so you know, if you're just by yourself, like you do have expenses, and on paper, it looks like you're collecting more an hour, but you have to look that out as far as like what really are you making?
00:26:58.749 --> 00:27:00.029
Are you profiting?
00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:01.629
And I think that's hard.
00:27:01.789 --> 00:27:05.709
I mean, I think it's it's again, I mean, they don't teach that in grad school.
00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:19.069
Yeah, yeah, it's uh I I got it through taking other business classes early in my undergrad and then applying it elsewhere, and then kind of going, okay, like I know how to do this.
00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:21.549
But you know, it's it's interesting.
00:27:21.629 --> 00:27:39.229
I mean, and and I think yeah, I I was just talking with someone just recently who, you know, did that, you know, made that move and uh was happy initially, and you know, and now, you know, they kind of were like, I don't know that I want to do this.
00:27:39.389 --> 00:27:41.549
Like, I, you know, I I think I made a mistake.
00:27:41.629 --> 00:27:43.309
Like I'm two years in.
00:27:43.709 --> 00:27:58.589
I work as much as I think I can, but in 40 hours I can't make enough and do all of the paperwork and the billing and um you know the marketing and all these other variables.
00:27:58.749 --> 00:28:04.189
And you know, this individual is kind of like, yeah, I think I'm gonna I think I want to go and work for somebody else.
00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:06.109
Like I think I'm I I want to move on.
00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:09.069
Like that was a better quality of life for me.
00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:12.829
Um, and you know, and I had said to them, yeah, like that's okay.
00:28:12.909 --> 00:28:14.189
Like that's not a failure.
00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:19.149
Like, don't like it's it, you don't have to love running a business.
00:28:19.309 --> 00:28:22.829
Like, if you're gonna do it, you have to really want to do it.
00:28:23.149 --> 00:28:24.269
I just like it.
00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:26.349
Like, so for me, I enjoyed it.
00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:39.309
I so I could still see 30 to 35 clinical hours and then know I was gonna work another 25 hours doing business stuff because I liked it.
00:28:39.469 --> 00:28:41.229
It was it was something I was into.
00:28:41.549 --> 00:28:44.189
No one should have to feel they want to do that.
00:28:44.349 --> 00:28:54.029
Like, that's you know, and you know, there you know, I I always say when I when I do truly fully retire, my retirement's gonna be working for another practice.
00:28:54.109 --> 00:28:58.269
Like I'll get I I'll apply and I don't want all the other stuff at some point.
00:28:58.429 --> 00:29:00.109
I just don't want to be a psychologist.
00:29:00.189 --> 00:29:02.829
Like I love that part of my identity.
00:29:02.909 --> 00:29:03.949
Like I want to do that.
00:29:04.109 --> 00:29:10.589
But I also know I want to cut back on the work that I've had to put in to have a group practice for a while.
00:29:10.749 --> 00:29:14.109
And now that's less that I'm now independent on my own.
00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:15.789
I'm only accountable to me.
00:29:15.949 --> 00:29:20.989
But yeah, I mean it's it it it's not everybody's cup of tea, and I think that's okay.
00:29:21.069 --> 00:29:22.509
And we have to kind of judge that.
00:29:22.589 --> 00:29:26.669
And I think people who want to go into it, educate yourself in business.
00:29:26.909 --> 00:29:31.789
Don't just assume that just because you hang up a shingle, you understand all of it.
00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:39.709
And there's billing laws, and there's employment laws, and there's all these things that you have to put the time in to learn.
00:29:39.869 --> 00:29:45.069
And I would say probably the main one that most people miss is learn accounting.
00:29:45.229 --> 00:29:47.869
Learn learn accounting really, really well.
00:29:48.029 --> 00:29:56.109
Know how to read balance sheets and create budgets and look at cash flow and know what that really means.
00:29:56.589 --> 00:30:05.469
Find something that you, you know, I I like the profit first books, which are a type of accounting that you can do.
00:30:05.629 --> 00:30:10.189
That's how I've run most of my businesses, and that works for me.
00:30:10.829 --> 00:30:16.909
But like, you gotta get into it, you gotta understand it, you have to kind of live it and breathe it a little bit.
00:30:17.229 --> 00:30:21.709
But because I did that, I knew what to expect.
00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:27.229
And I I think probably, you know, I'll never forget the first business manager I hired.
00:30:27.309 --> 00:30:31.389
Like, I was finally at a point where it was like, okay, I need somebody else to help me.
00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:40.829
So I hired this business manager, and we were talking, and I was telling her how much each room in my office costs to run a day.
00:30:40.989 --> 00:30:42.029
And she's like, What?
00:30:42.189 --> 00:30:48.189
And I'm like, yeah, like that office that costs this much a day to run this office.
00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:51.229
Like, so I had figured out what my expenses were.
00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:57.069
I divided it by my square feet, and I knew what revenue I had to generate in each office.
00:30:57.229 --> 00:31:00.989
And it was so funny because she's like, Wow, this like that's kind of crazy.
00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:02.989
I'm like, well, it's an expense.
00:31:03.149 --> 00:31:09.869
Like, you know, and and I used to joke, I used to say, you know, I know I know how much toilet paper we use.
00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:12.189
Um, but that's that's an expense.
00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:16.269
Like, that's something we don't think that we have to buy, but it's part of what we do.
00:31:16.589 --> 00:31:33.469
And so learning that and knowing it and being able to say, yeah, like it's not just that I have this rent, like if I pay this much for this building, how much does each of those spaces have to generate in revenue so that we can be successful?
00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:38.429
And that's a lot of thinking, that's a lot of hours that you put in to do that.
00:31:38.589 --> 00:31:39.709
But then it gets easy.
00:31:39.789 --> 00:31:49.549
Like, I think, you know, that was hard the first few years, but you know, now I can go to a building and go, okay, in a few minutes I know what my expenses are going to look like.
00:31:49.949 --> 00:31:52.029
That comes with a lot of time and practice.
00:31:52.829 --> 00:32:10.829
And, you know, I keep kind of thinking back to this idea like of the importance of being open to the diversifying piece and you know, those individuals that, you know, the this episode's not meant to be disillusioning, but maybe that there is a sense of like questioning, like, oh, you know, I do I really want all of that?
00:32:11.069 --> 00:32:26.909
You know, and and I don't I don't think that there should be a sense of like dismissing it immediately, but it there it is important and valuable to consider these aspects of it earlier on rather than, you know, and maybe it is a trial and error bit of piece, but like not relying on that.
00:32:27.149 --> 00:32:36.109
And you know, for for at least the first few years of my my career, there was this kind of thought of like, oh, I'm I'm probably gonna before I retire, I'll probably be in private practice.
00:32:36.189 --> 00:32:39.389
And I'm so grateful now that I know I don't really ever want to be in private practice.
00:32:39.469 --> 00:32:39.949
I don't know.
00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:44.269
And so knowing earlier on that, well, what do I want to do?
00:32:44.349 --> 00:32:46.109
And like being open to questioning that.
00:32:46.269 --> 00:33:02.109
And, you know, the more individuals that we've talked with on the podcast or that we've kind of conducted webinars with, and hearing a lot of their stories, and I love that that's part of our podcast is like when we have a guest, we hear what's their pathway, and because so many can be diverse.
00:33:02.189 --> 00:33:23.709
And I mean, Freila Mandy is like, you know, so it's such a cool dynamic that she's able to kind of go and fulfill, or um, you know, if individuals who are really interested in doing their research, or you know, I and I really think if we step back and look at what are the different kind of through threads when it comes to the mental health field, each one of those is a potential avenue to pursue.
00:33:23.949 --> 00:33:54.189
So, you know, if it is looking at legislation or being on a board, if it is, you know, writing or presenting, if it's going in and you know, being a a cons or for a consult or be, you know, being able to develop tests, like, you know, all of these things that we might utilize and not really consider, or you know, if it's uh doing uh help or a hotline, you know, like you know, uh 988 call, like building those, whatever the like those various aspects, and like each one could be something to consider.
00:33:54.349 --> 00:34:04.429
And there's probably a lot that we don't want to, and like we can cut out immediately, but don't be overly restrictive, because I think in that like we might miss out or not even really be aware of certain things.
00:34:04.509 --> 00:34:08.029
I I know I wasn't before this opportunity, and thank goodness.
00:34:08.349 --> 00:34:16.509
And that was an opportunity I had to kind of take a bit of a risk, but it wasn't something that you know, if I let that pass by, I don't know where I'd be at, right?
00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:18.670
You know, or it would be very different.
00:34:18.829 --> 00:34:34.829
So be open to taking those risks and stepping outside, but also be cautious when that stepping outside has you solely relying on yourself too early or without considering maybe some of those entrepreneurship, because entrepreneurship is kind of a necessity if we're solely relying on ourselves.
00:34:35.069 --> 00:34:37.150
And and I I think that's that's a great point.
00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:41.230
I think the other thing is it's just it's having people really do their research.
00:34:41.390 --> 00:35:06.190
You know, I mean it's I uh I was asked several months ago, probably back in January-ish, uh from a school psychologist who was you know kind of tired of kind of public education, not because of the job, but really was just at a point in their life with family that they were looking more from a revenue standpoint, like they they needed more income.
00:35:06.350 --> 00:35:10.510
And so, you know, they asked if I would kind of work with them.
00:35:10.590 --> 00:35:18.590
And so we kind of spent much time kind of talking about, you know, okay, like if you do go on your own, like what's what's the risks that come?
00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.110
What are the what are the things that are are great?
00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:29.550
And there are some great parts about it and that you're gonna love, but what are also the things that might be uncomfortable?
00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:36.750
That like the fact that somebody might not pay their bill, and you don't have income for for that week.
00:35:36.910 --> 00:35:39.150
Like, how how do you handle those things?
00:35:39.390 --> 00:35:51.230
And so it was interesting because we had this great conversation, and it led to a different path, and it led to like, okay, like because this individual was like, Yeah, I don't know.
00:35:51.389 --> 00:35:54.590
Like, I keep, I think I want to do it, but I don't know.
00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:56.510
And I said, Well, what do you really want?
00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:58.030
Like, let's really kind of talk.
00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:03.470
And so it ended up being like, okay, like I need to make X amount of dollars.
00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:08.829
I'm willing to give this much time in addition to my 40 hours a week.
00:36:09.070 --> 00:36:13.150
And so we started exploring what other things, and and it was interesting.
00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:17.869
Ended up fast forward now, you know, I guess nine months ahead.
00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:25.230
And this individual still works at the same job that he had, because it wasn't that he was running from that job.
00:36:25.389 --> 00:36:29.789
There were some things he doesn't didn't like, but he's like, no, I kind of like it overall.
00:36:30.030 --> 00:36:46.909
But he ended up finding this side gig where he re reads reports for cyber charter schools to make sure that their reports they get from their contractors are at a high enough quality to make educational decisions.
00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:50.829
So he's basically kind of their review process.
00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:55.470
He can do it from home, he can do it a few hours a night.
00:36:55.710 --> 00:36:57.789
It actually pays pretty well.
00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:04.110
It's given him a pretty nice bump yearly in his salary, and he does it from home.
00:37:04.269 --> 00:37:06.269
So he he doesn't have set hours.
00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:11.230
He's he basically they're like, you have to do these within a five-day period.
00:37:11.389 --> 00:37:14.990
So he can go to his kids' games and not miss them.
00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:20.429
And when they go to bed, he reviews a few reports and makes comments and submits them online.
00:37:21.470 --> 00:37:22.429
Game changer.
00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:22.990
Yeah.
00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:29.949
You know, but the initial was I need to go into private practice because I think that's how I'm gonna make more.
00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:34.510
And honestly, he probably makes more not going into private practice.
00:37:34.750 --> 00:37:42.750
He has benefits, he has all these other things that he doesn't have to pay for, and he's found a pretty decent way to make extra money.
00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:44.909
Like this is it's a great option.
00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:48.269
That's why we have to think, I think, outside the box sometimes.
00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:53.470
And really, like, I think when we're in that phase, we have to first ask ourselves why.
00:37:53.630 --> 00:37:54.990
Why, why do we want it?
00:37:55.230 --> 00:37:57.150
Like, what is it that we want about it?
00:37:57.309 --> 00:37:58.909
Not what we're gonna run away from.
00:37:59.070 --> 00:38:03.789
Like, we might not like other things in our job, but this change, what do we want?
00:38:03.949 --> 00:38:08.030
And if it's just financial, that may not be the right reason.
00:38:08.190 --> 00:38:14.510
You know, for me, it became the reason of I love the challenge of development.
00:38:14.590 --> 00:38:16.750
Like, I and I've learned that with myself.
00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:21.710
Like, I I love building things, not Legos.
00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:29.150
No, I do like building Legos too, but it's but like I love that idea of going, okay, how can I make this work?
00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:31.869
And I like the struggle.
00:38:32.030 --> 00:38:35.550
I I like the idea of okay, that didn't work.
00:38:35.630 --> 00:38:36.829
What else can we do?
00:38:36.990 --> 00:38:38.909
And it's this constant part.
00:38:38.990 --> 00:38:43.949
And I also realize that there's a percentage of the time I'm gonna fail at it.
00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:46.909
And I'm also not worried about that.
00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:49.309
Like I'm okay if I don't succeed.
00:38:49.470 --> 00:38:55.389
I I mean I've I've owned many businesses, not all of them have been a success.
00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:58.990
Many have been, and I'm lucky for that.
00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:02.909
But others, you know, we thought it was a good concept and it wasn't.
00:39:02.990 --> 00:39:08.030
Um we put 110% in and it just never got there.
00:39:08.349 --> 00:39:08.990
That's okay.
00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:12.030
Like I I I'm okay with that stress tolerance.
00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:14.110
I'm okay experiencing that.
00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:16.429
Um, but you have to ask.
00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:27.150
Like, so for me, I ended up starting when I now ask myself questions, it's okay, my why is usually what can I kind of develop out of this?
00:39:27.309 --> 00:39:33.309
What can we take that doesn't exist and what can we think out of the box and create something?
00:39:33.789 --> 00:39:36.670
And that's what makes me excited.
00:39:37.470 --> 00:39:45.550
I'm lucky that has turned into some other financial things, but you know, but it's also risks, yeah.
00:39:45.630 --> 00:39:52.590
So and so for me, like when I look back at all of my diversification, I think that's the common thread for me.
00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:58.590
Like, so writing a book, hey, people may never read it, but I'm okay with that.
00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:01.789
Like it's it's building something, it's creating something.
00:40:02.110 --> 00:40:04.590
Test development has been creating something.
00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:12.190
Owning practices and private practices and group practices, it's owning, it's it's creating something.
00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:16.110
Even the presenting stuff that I do, there's a creation to that.
00:40:16.190 --> 00:40:19.630
There's building new ideas and training other people.
00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:27.949
So for me, I found a common thread that luckily works across a whole bunch of different areas of diversification.
00:40:28.190 --> 00:40:30.670
That may not be everybody's thing, though.
00:40:30.829 --> 00:40:34.429
Like, yeah, that's so that I think that's so you have to ask, like, what is it?
00:40:34.590 --> 00:40:38.190
For the guy I was talking about, his was purely financial.
00:40:38.349 --> 00:40:42.269
It was, you know what, I have my kids are getting older, I need to save more money.
00:40:42.349 --> 00:40:47.230
I'm thinking about college for them, I'm thinking about that's a different question.
00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:48.909
That's a or it's a different answer.
00:40:49.070 --> 00:41:05.150
And so for him, it was like, okay, why do you want to then take all these risks that might be challenging when there's other ways to use your skill set and accomplish the goal of making more money?
00:41:05.470 --> 00:41:07.389
And so he found it.
00:41:07.710 --> 00:41:10.030
So I that's what I would encourage people to do.
00:41:10.110 --> 00:41:11.710
Like, really dig down.
00:41:11.789 --> 00:41:12.510
What do you want?
00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:16.110
Like, what's the thing that's gonna drive you to do it?
00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:18.030
Um, I don't think there's a wrong answer.
00:41:18.190 --> 00:41:18.429
Yeah.
00:41:18.670 --> 00:41:27.230
And and maybe just to piggyback off that, talking about diversifying, like diversifying also can come from outside of mental, like the mental health field.
00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:35.230
Like when you were talking about the you know, the interest in like the business courses and the entrepreneurship and how that became pivotal, uh pivotal in so many ways there.
00:41:35.389 --> 00:41:39.710
And you know, I as you said that, I was thinking for myself, like, what are the the diversifications?
00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:41.789
And part of that is my interest in technology.
00:41:41.949 --> 00:41:43.070
And I really enjoy that.
00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:47.309
And that that had led to kind of our converse first conversation with the podcast.
00:41:47.389 --> 00:42:09.389
And now, you know, even before, like right before we started recording, you know, you were asking about like we were talking about how we're uh we're gonna have a booth at ABCT uh conference in Baltimore uh coming up in November, and you know, we're looking at the badge ribbons, and it's like, hey, you know, design-wise, is that something and that's something that uh it was just more of an interest or a hobby that I've been able to now bring into uh mental health related.
00:42:09.470 --> 00:42:22.990
And so it doesn't have to only stem from mental health qualities or interests, but really kind of looking at ourselves as a whole person rather than just ourselves as a clinician or in the mental health field, and what are those aspects to bring in?
00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:28.590
Because I think that's really when we've had our niche and our nuance, and like we can really get the most out of it.
00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:31.070
Yeah, I mean, I I think you're absolutely.
00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:33.150
I mean, I think that's I think that's a great point.
00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:41.710
And I mean, and I think sometimes it, you know, I've I've had businesses have nothing to do with it and can't even connect them to psychology.
00:42:41.869 --> 00:42:43.150
Like that's been okay.
00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:47.309
But again, it it still met my need.
00:42:47.389 --> 00:42:51.230
Like my again, my interest was in the building part.
00:42:51.470 --> 00:42:54.510
Um, so yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of ways.
00:42:54.590 --> 00:43:08.190
And, you know, I uh I have a colleague of mine who does fitness and really has designed their practice around tying fitness and psychology together.
00:43:08.429 --> 00:43:17.309
And so there's a a both physical and mental training aspect that they do with really high-level athletes.
00:43:17.389 --> 00:43:23.470
But it's not they're not doing sports psychology, it's much more of the physical end of it, but that's their thing.
00:43:23.630 --> 00:43:34.750
Like they're athletic, they they're in the gym all the time, and they found a way to harness some of their psychology skills, but put it into a passion that they they have.
00:43:35.630 --> 00:43:37.789
Technology, I think, is another great way.
00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:44.349
I mean, there's you know, our our uh you know sister podcast uh Beyond the Bot.
00:43:44.429 --> 00:44:08.909
You know, we you know, Adam Lockwood and Dan Frell both have created kind of realms in the AI world where they're able to take that interest and do consulting and to do other things that are not related to their school psychology or clinical practices, that's that really is because of their interest in technology and how we can advance that.
00:44:09.070 --> 00:44:13.070
And you know, that ties to their career, but it also doesn't.
00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:15.630
So yeah, I think there's a lot of ways.
00:44:15.949 --> 00:44:28.990
You know, I I was this summer talking to a psychologist who I won't name it, name the person yet because they they're still in the the the context of it, but they're a foodie.
00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:36.110
They they are like they like to travel around and eat and do things, and and it's something this individual and I have in common.
00:44:36.269 --> 00:45:03.630
So when we're different places, we we tend to eat together, and uh they they were like, hey, like just so you know, like I'm creating this social media business where I'm going to go around to different food places and videotape my reactions to food and great food, but I'm tying it to how food influences our mood and our mental health.
00:45:03.789 --> 00:45:07.630
And and I was like, like, where did that even come from?
00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:12.990
And they were like, and it was interesting because like as they were talking about it, they're like, they think about it.
00:45:13.150 --> 00:45:17.070
Like, what are the memories that you have about certain foods?
00:45:17.230 --> 00:45:20.829
Like that you, when you eat food, does it remind you?
00:45:20.990 --> 00:45:28.349
And I was like, Oh yeah, like I could remember like like there are certain smells of bread, certain kinds of bread that make me think of my grandmother.
00:45:28.429 --> 00:45:30.990
And she's like, Yeah, what do you what's that?
00:45:31.150 --> 00:45:32.670
How does it how do you feel from it?
00:45:32.750 --> 00:45:35.150
And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, it's it's joyful.
00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:38.190
Like, there's this, so I was like, brilliant.
00:45:38.349 --> 00:45:55.710
Like this is, you know, now I'm I'm not giving all the details, so I'm being pretty vague in the concept, but I will say the idea is is fantastic and already has leveraged sponsorships and already has all of these things.
00:45:55.949 --> 00:46:13.470
And it was just sitting down and having dinner one day with somebody, and and somebody ate the that she was eating with said, Man, every time I get this dish, like I just get this joy that comes over me because it reminds me of my childhood.
00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:17.230
And it was like, boom, light bulb goes off.
00:46:17.470 --> 00:46:26.909
And like, okay, like I I would enjoy, even if I don't make money, I would enjoy sidelining it and doing this as a project.
00:46:26.990 --> 00:46:45.630
And then all of a sudden, found out like, wait, there are sponsors that would do this, and um, it will turn into everywhere she travels, she's gonna target certain restaurants and talk about the food and tie it back to psychology.
00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:46.349
Brilliant.
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:49.789
I would have never thought of that, but what a great extension.
00:46:50.750 --> 00:46:57.230
And just like the opportunities are out there, and probably a lot of the ways we would encourage our clients to take healthy risks.
00:46:57.550 --> 00:46:59.309
We need to be open to healthy risks too.
00:46:59.470 --> 00:47:10.590
If we're looking to make the changes, and certainly not advocating for us upending things, but if there becomes that time, you know, don't the the path isn't linear.
00:47:10.909 --> 00:47:12.909
It's expanding and it's a it's a web.
00:47:12.990 --> 00:47:18.510
And so you know, consider the options before just taking the singular path that's right in front of you.
00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:19.470
That's right.
00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:20.829
I couldn't say it better.
00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:23.710
With that, well we hope you enjoyed this episode today.
00:47:23.789 --> 00:47:26.990
Uh, we'll be back in two weeks, but until then, be well.
00:47:27.230 --> 00:47:28.349
Stay psyched.
00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:29.420
Hello and welcome to the Psych2 Practice Podcast, your one-stop for practical and useful clinical information, masterful insight from experts in the field, and a guide to daily living.
00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:32.379
I'm your host, Paul Wagner, and joining me, Ray Cursor.
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And, you know, Ray, I thought we could do maybe a little bit of a deviation from our typical kind of podcast episode where a lot of times we're kind of pre-planning an episode and going in and we're both talking about the same topic.
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But I'd like to do a little bit of a kind of a question and answer.
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So kind of laying in, you know, I I don't know that I would say early in my career, but so earlier in my career.
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And aspects of like through our conversations here have really brought about some insight that I don't think I would have gotten otherwise.
00:02:01.740 --> 00:02:35.419
And I think it'd be really interesting to have a conversation kind of going into like what insights you've gained throughout your career, and maybe talking to individuals at various points in their career, but kind of whether that's diversifying income streams or being able to talk about the idea of moving from maybe a group practice into a private practice and just kind of exploring some of the space that mental health has to offer beyond the therapy room and kind of what are the things to maybe question or think about, or at the very least, things you questioned and thought about before making some transitions or recommendations you make to individuals come into you.
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So I thought that'd be a fun topic to get into.
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Yeah, I think it's a great topic.
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I mean, I I think you know, a lot of those decisions and you know things that we think about beyond just therapy, I think come from mentors most often.
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Like, you know, I mean, I I was lucky I had certain people who you know maybe pushed or guided me in certain ways that helped with some of that.
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So yeah, I think it's a great topic.
00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:07.500
I mean, I think that sometimes we you know maybe feel that we're trapped into one kind of role.
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And I think there's a lot in mental health that we can look at.
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And I I I don't know that there's one singular pipeline into mental health.
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There's very diverse ones, but I think that, you know, for individuals maybe in the clinical side of things, an early stop in their career can be into community-based mental health systems and kind of those larger organizations, which I think fulfill a really important and significant need there, but also just the volume of individuals that could they see can really be challenging.
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And so I I guess um if an individual is in that, I guess maybe in a setting like that, you know, they're maybe out of grad school and they're finally kind of like maybe they got licensed and they're entering into the field and starting like you know, first therapy caseload.
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Um, and uh, I'll just I'm gonna, I guess, say community-based mental health.
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What do you think are the uh the the insights to be gained from a setting like that?
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And you know, if an individual then starts to question, can I start to look elsewhere?
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When do you think might be too like too soon, or wouldn't you also maybe is like, hey, maybe you've kind of stagnated and like grown a little bit too comfortable and like maybe it's time to take a risk?
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And so I guess any thoughts on either end of that?
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Yeah, I think that I think that's a great question.
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I mean, I think that you know those settings, whether it's community mental health or people who are doing school-based mental health or whatever it is, I would say just kind of public organizations in general.
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I think they're great places to start.
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I mean, I I spent my time in in many of them and um cherished it.
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Like, I mean, I think really it there were there was a great part of my my career and development there.
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But but I think it starts with trying to get ourselves to start asking what we're getting from it, you know, or what we want from it.
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Like I think that, you know, and again, I, you know, we've we talked about the idea of mentors.
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I was lucky I had mentors who, you know, they were getting me to think while I was in those roles.
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Like, what do you want to learn while you're here?
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Like when it was community mental health, they were like, listen, there's a chance of diversity here that you're not gonna see in other places.
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So it gave me a chance to work with different populations and different diagnoses and challenged me to take some risks under the broader umbrella of an organization to maybe find my interests a little bit.
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And when I worked in public education, same thing.
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Like it was, yeah, I was lucky I had supervisors who were like, hey, you should try this.
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And so I think those settings are great for us to start and let us start filling out where we're good and maybe when we're not.
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Like, you know, I've shared a bunch of times, I'm not good at couples therapy, not not my thing.
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Well, my experience with that started there.
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Like I did couples therapy and I had good supervision, and it just never never felt right for me.
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Like it just wasn't something that I I was I really felt comfortable with.
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That experience was wonderful and it was a safe place to do that.
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So I think, you know, I think early on in those careers, we should we should take advantage of it and ask ourselves, okay, what do I want to take challenges in?
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I don't know that there's a timeline on when it's right to move on from that.
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I I have an opinion in that I do think people try to move from that too fast.
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I think it's, you know, we, you know, there's more money to be made.
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There's, you know, probably less hectic jobs to be in.
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But you know, kind of what we I think tell people in therapy, like sometimes we have to tolerate that stress.
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And that's not what a lot of people want to hear, but you know, I'm glad I did it for a time period where my decision to move was I exhausted my opportunities.
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And so for me, it was like, what else do I want to gain while I'm here?
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What else can I provide here that is is going to be an option that's gonna help kind of my career growth?
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And I made this decision to move from that when I kind of, you know, I think you may have said the word stagnant, so that's in my head, but where I felt stagnant.
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Like there was there were weren't other opportunities.
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The upward growth opportunities were not the direction that I knew I wanted to go for my career.
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So I think one, we have to stick it out long enough to make sure we really do get a diverse experience because it's invaluable.
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I mean, it it really just is.
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But then also when we when we hit that point where it's like, okay, what else is here?
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Um, and you know, for me it was, you know, I I knew I didn't want at that point to go into a a nonprofit supervision role.
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That wasn't uh where I was at.
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I still wanted to advance my clinical skills.
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I wasn't advancing them though.
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Like it was so we got to a point where like I in supervision, I didn't feel I was gaining anything else.
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So that that helped me make my decision.
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But you know, I I did those types of jobs for you know for several years before I was like, okay, now it's time to to maybe shift and and move into something else.
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And when an when an individual is in a setting like that, again, whether it's a school system or the larger community-based organizations, and if whether or not I I think the community-based organizations have a great access to various forms of supervision, but if there's a hesitation or reservation with maybe leaning in or getting like when you're talking about you have great mentors, yeah.
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And if someone maybe whether from a uh just a lack of connectedness, or maybe they just maybe it's not the best mentorship, how do you think someone who's maybe in a position like that could recognize when they have you know exhausted their clinical skill?
00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:29.899
And a part of that, you know, when you said individuals maybe looking to deviate earlier, I I didn't even think about this, but maybe even the consideration of outward supervision while still maintaining a role within there comparatively to continuing on within the organization itself.
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And I don't know that back when I was in a QB-based mental health system that I would have ever considered that.
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But you know, as you're describing that, I'm thinking about not have having mentorship.
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Is I guess what are some of those factors that you think individuals could benefit from considering there?
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Yeah, that's that's I mean, I I like the I idea of kind of that that outward kind of supervision model.
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It's interesting.
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I I don't know that I ever had to do that, but I did do that in the sense of like, you know, I when I was in one community mental health setting, I actually had a great supervisor.
00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:08.460
Like he was uh ultimately he he was really good.
00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:15.420
Like he he let me really expand my skills, he challenged my my thinking, like so that was a good experience.
00:10:15.580 --> 00:10:17.259
But but he was also limited.
00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:25.899
Like, so I wanted to to train in some specific at that point in time exposure techniques that I didn't have much experience in.
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And this was before I went back for my doctorate.
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In fact, I just got my master's degree.
00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:54.460
And so you know, I ended up reaching out and finding other people to do some consulting with and found somebody actually at a a neighboring agency that was was willing to sit down and it was informal, like it wasn't like we were sharing case notes, but gave me pointers, gave me things to read, gave me some ideas of of strategies.
00:10:54.940 --> 00:11:03.019
So that was not a necessary thing for me, but it was something where I didn't want to change environments because I had so many opportunities.
00:11:03.180 --> 00:11:08.940
Like the other that the environment was still good, but I needed to kind of to reach out a little further.
00:11:09.019 --> 00:11:11.659
So I think that's a great option to do.
00:11:12.060 --> 00:11:15.580
I I also think people have to make sure they ask.
00:11:15.740 --> 00:11:22.300
Um, yeah, I I was very direct in telling people, like, you know, this is what I I I want.
00:11:22.779 --> 00:11:31.180
And yes, I could probably be more independent, but I did have a little of a trajectory in my mind of some things I wanted to do.
00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:35.180
So I I wanted to make sure that I was getting the supervision.
00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:43.500
And so making sure you ask, and I think there is a reality of you know, some agencies may not be able to do that.
00:11:43.659 --> 00:11:48.139
And and then it is, you know, is it something that can be outsourced?
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But with that could come costs.
00:11:49.899 --> 00:11:54.700
Like you may have, you know, paying for supervision or consultation, that's an expense.
00:11:54.860 --> 00:11:59.820
Yeah, but that might also make a decision, is it time for me to to move?
00:12:00.060 --> 00:12:38.670
And you know, I I think we've said this on other episodes, but it's this idea of running toward, not running away from.
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So like I always made this kind of idea in when I was when I was making a change, what was I running toward?
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Like, was there an agency that might have been able to meet those needs?
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And and I knew at that point in my career I wasn't ready to go on my own, I wasn't ready to go into other areas.
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So I I still wanted that support.
00:13:00.110 --> 00:13:02.350
I I knew I needed to broaden myself out.
00:13:02.509 --> 00:13:04.110
But yeah, I did make choices.
00:13:04.269 --> 00:13:14.350
Like I I was in a IBHS service, which it wasn't called that at that point in time, but was in that for a while and learned a lot and was challenged.
00:13:14.430 --> 00:13:20.750
And then I had to kind of reach out and then ended up going into a partial program uh where I worked for a while.
00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:29.230
And you know, it it was a necessary move and created a different level of experience for me.
00:13:29.389 --> 00:13:35.629
Um, but it wasn't that I didn't like where I was at, it was just the opportunity was better to try another agency.
00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:45.070
And when you when you got to that point where you were starting to look and like diversifying, like I I guess what did you see as those potential pathways?
00:13:45.150 --> 00:14:00.830
And so like if it was a deviating away from the type of agency that you started in, like you talked about partial, you talked about um IBHS and still struggle with that acronym and it's all it'll always be PHRS in my head and I have to translate it as I'm talking about it.
00:14:00.990 --> 00:14:20.509
But I I guess what are like what were those options that you were looking at, or like what do you see as viable kind of uh landing points from kind of maybe a and I'm generalizing here but talking about a starting position with community-based or school-based systems, but I guess if we're developing beyond that, what do you think are the options that you considered?
00:14:20.830 --> 00:14:22.030
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:24.030
I'm not sure I considered a whole lot.
00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:39.470
Like I think in in hindsight, it's I I I like there were a lot of things, but yeah, I I'm I'm gonna go back to just having a lot of conversations and mentors that that I I could talk things over with.
00:14:39.710 --> 00:15:04.110
And so I don't know that I was like that I knew these ideas that I was going into, but I just had enough conversations and and honestly, something that I know is not feasible for everybody, but you know, I I was lucky I had the chance to go to conferences, and I went to conferences and just talked to a lot of people, and you know, was would talk to book editors and go, you know, you're a psychologist.
00:15:04.269 --> 00:15:07.629
Like, how did you get into being an acquisition editor and a book publisher?
00:15:07.790 --> 00:15:12.509
Like, and just wanting to like pick people's brains about what was there.
00:15:12.670 --> 00:15:14.750
And I think I think I still do that.
00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:17.230
Like I still find things that are out there, right?
00:15:17.310 --> 00:15:18.830
That that we don't think about.
00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.150
And so, I mean, I think there's a lot of avenues.
00:15:21.230 --> 00:15:33.470
I mean, I think, you know, for me it was like learning about the idea that people presented and went out there and and had a a side job where they got paid to present.
00:15:33.710 --> 00:15:36.350
And when you first start, that's not a good income.
00:15:36.430 --> 00:15:39.629
Like, I mean, it's there's a lot of free presenting that you do.
00:15:40.190 --> 00:15:44.190
But over time, that that can be a a good thing.
00:15:44.269 --> 00:15:46.590
And it's been a good part of my career.
00:15:46.750 --> 00:15:56.990
And then talking to people who were writing and you know, wrote it, and I've written a lot of articles for nothing, and I've written books that I I've been able to have royalties off of.
00:15:57.230 --> 00:16:03.150
And you know, not that that's life-changing income, but it it's still a way to diversify.
00:16:03.310 --> 00:16:23.629
And so I I think just talking to different people and finding out like consulting jobs, like you know, how many people in mental health, you know, might sit on a board for something, or you know, you know, I've had consult like contracting jobs where I've consulted in the development of certain programs and reviewed them.
00:16:23.790 --> 00:16:32.190
I've been a manuscript reviewer for book publishers, test development, like all of these things where you know they're they're out there.
00:16:32.350 --> 00:16:35.710
Like, and and I again they kind of evolved.
00:16:35.870 --> 00:16:41.629
And you know, for me, it was always like I would hear of something and then go, oh, I'm gonna try, I I want to try it.
00:16:41.790 --> 00:16:52.670
So, you know, I was I was a school psychologist maybe year two, and one of the tests that I used was in it was getting renormed.
00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:57.710
Like, so it was going through that process, and they were looking for people to be part of that.
00:16:57.870 --> 00:16:59.150
And so I did.
00:16:59.230 --> 00:17:05.950
I was like, great, like I'm gonna, you know, I get paid to give the test, so I made a little extra money.
00:17:06.029 --> 00:17:12.910
Uh, somewhere, my name's probably in the manual of the test, which is kind of a nice thing when you're brand new.
00:17:13.150 --> 00:17:22.109
But like again, it was like seeing those things, being aware of what was was going on, and then and then taking advantage of it and trying it out.
00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:24.910
And and I've done that a few times for tests.
00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:34.430
Probably wouldn't do it now in my career, like it would be less probably less likely with with way my schedule is, but early on, that was fantastic.
00:17:34.589 --> 00:17:35.949
So, yeah, I think there's a ton.
00:17:36.029 --> 00:17:43.229
Like, I mean, I think it's just a matter of again looking, asking around, finding out what's there.
00:17:43.469 --> 00:17:52.029
And that might lead to you know, maybe another practice, but it also could be a lot of good ways to just supplement income.
00:17:52.189 --> 00:18:16.189
I I'm surprised how many colleagues of mine right now are consultants with AI companies, like tons of them that are you know doing work on you know making sure the language is correct and testing out different things, like maybe report writers or AI that turns you know your conversation to notes and being a proofreader for that.
00:18:16.349 --> 00:18:24.109
What a wonderful opportunity for someone that's not part of your your clinical day that you can still have an opportunity.
00:18:24.189 --> 00:18:25.309
And and those exist.
00:18:25.469 --> 00:18:28.029
I mean, I think that's so it's just a matter of looking.
00:18:28.349 --> 00:18:40.989
And I'm so happy you kind of said that because when and it was probably more my my bachelor's program when kind of the first understanding that there was more than just psychologists and it was counseling, so short, like all these various avenues.
00:18:41.229 --> 00:18:41.549
Yeah.
00:18:41.709 --> 00:18:48.029
And it it was kind of shared though that this idea of like, oh, and like the apex of that is private practice.
00:18:48.189 --> 00:18:48.349
Right.
00:18:48.589 --> 00:18:51.789
And like, you know, it's kind of going at like that's when you know you've made it.
00:18:51.949 --> 00:19:09.549
And really kind of there's so many different pieces, whether it's it's in conjunction with the potential of a private practice, maybe you're still, you know, you're in a maybe you're not even performing clinically anymore, and maybe you're going, you know, you are in that full-time, you know, uh acquisition editor for uh book publisher or other things along that line.
00:19:09.709 --> 00:19:19.229
So really kind of being open to kind of not only staying within the clinical role, but being able to develop and explore these other outside avenues.
00:19:19.309 --> 00:19:41.869
And you know, I think you at home, you listeners at home, like the podcast, I think is a great example of like our conversation, just being able to, and I know we've talked about the the development there, but truly, at least for myself personally, this was the springboard outside of just the clinical, you know, therapy sessions and being able to engage in mental health in a different way.
00:19:42.029 --> 00:19:44.749
And you know, from there's more opportunities, you know.
00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:51.469
I've I've now given a presentation, you know, you know, being able to, you know, talking about psych to practice for the continuing education side of things.
00:19:51.629 --> 00:20:06.829
So really I think being open to some of those risks and also not taking uh going back to what you said earlier, and I think also Jana Parker's episode, like I think she mentioned like she went into private practice and actually left it early because it felt like there wasn't that skill set that's there.
00:20:06.989 --> 00:20:14.749
And I think we need to be gradual in our kind of deviation away from groups that are supportive.
00:20:14.989 --> 00:20:22.349
And there is a point in time where I do think we can stand alone, but that is not earlier in the career as much as we might like it to be.
00:20:22.669 --> 00:20:22.989
Yeah.
00:20:23.149 --> 00:20:23.389
Yeah.
00:20:23.469 --> 00:20:28.829
I mean, I I I think the whole private practice thing's a whole other yeah, it's just a whole other beast.
00:20:29.069 --> 00:20:34.269
And it's it's something I think a lot of people think they want.
00:20:34.669 --> 00:20:37.709
And and it, you know, for me it was interesting.
00:20:37.869 --> 00:20:43.389
Like, so I you know, I've owned other businesses before I owned a psychology business.
00:20:43.469 --> 00:20:55.229
So like I had some business sense behind me just because from a a pretty young age I I I always had kind of that interest in entrepreneurship and those types of things.
00:20:55.389 --> 00:21:00.029
So I I had businesses that had no relevance to the field of psychology.
00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:03.229
And interestingly, I never even thought I wanted a private practice.
00:21:03.389 --> 00:21:09.309
Like that, like my my evolution in private practice happened by being a professor first.
00:21:09.469 --> 00:21:17.869
So I I was I had left public education, took a professorship, and um was teaching.
00:21:18.109 --> 00:21:24.749
And part of that role was I had a a f a flex day that I was allowed to do clinical work.
00:21:24.909 --> 00:21:30.829
And so I opened a small office to keep my clinical skills sharp while I I taught.
00:21:31.069 --> 00:21:39.309
And uh, you know, within, I don't know, four or five months, like I had a huge wait list.
00:21:39.389 --> 00:21:45.709
Like, I mean, I was only seeing about six or seven people a day on on that day that I had.
00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:48.109
So it was like it was easy to get a wait list.
00:21:48.429 --> 00:21:58.429
So I had actually talked to the the university or the college that I was teaching at and said, you know, hey, is there any chance like I can kind of expand that time?
00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:07.229
And so ended up making some adjustments and then had two days and used that for some some other research and stuff as well.
00:22:07.469 --> 00:22:09.949
But that never let my wait list go down.
00:22:10.189 --> 00:22:13.549
And so after a while, I was like, you know what, I like this.
00:22:13.629 --> 00:22:17.389
I still love being a clinician, didn't really want to give that up.
00:22:17.629 --> 00:22:25.389
And so that was the decision point for me of okay, like I think I should kind of shift gears here a little bit.
00:22:25.549 --> 00:22:37.469
And so I started that transition and never thought I wanted a group practice, you know, but it was I I found the business part I had known, which really helped.
00:22:37.629 --> 00:22:47.549
Like I understood budgets and the fact that, you know, I'm just because I'm collecting X amount of dollars doesn't mean that goes in my pocket.
00:22:47.629 --> 00:22:49.149
Like there's a lot of expense.
00:22:49.229 --> 00:22:52.269
And I understood that there were no vacation days.
00:22:52.429 --> 00:22:57.309
Like there are a lot of those things where you know I was prepared for that.
00:22:57.389 --> 00:23:00.749
And I don't know that we that people always are.
00:23:00.909 --> 00:23:05.149
Like I think sometimes they kind of go in and think, oh, like, yeah, I'm gonna take a vacation.
00:23:05.389 --> 00:23:06.909
That's a week you don't get paid.
00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:08.589
Um, like you make no money that week.
00:23:08.669 --> 00:23:09.949
So you have to budget for that.
00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:16.669
Like, so I I went in with that advantage, being able to do it, but really never thought I wanted a group practice.
00:23:16.749 --> 00:23:31.469
And then, you know, once I did go full-time on my own, it was probably another six months from that, where it was um, you know, I sat down and was like, okay, like my wait list is about 12 months at that point.
00:23:31.949 --> 00:23:36.109
I'm like, maybe I'll bring a part-time person to cut that back.
00:23:36.429 --> 00:23:39.069
And then so for me, it organically grew.
00:23:39.229 --> 00:23:44.269
So it was, it wasn't this like going in and just, oh, I'm going to do this big practice.
00:23:44.429 --> 00:23:46.349
It really kind of went in stages.
00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:53.629
And the business knowledge, which is in is just absolutely necessary for people that want to do this.
00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:55.149
I at least had that.
00:23:55.229 --> 00:24:01.869
Like I under like I said, I understood cash flow statements and budgets and all those financial things.
00:24:02.109 --> 00:24:07.789
I I knew a lot of that, which I I think gave me an edge early on.
00:24:08.189 --> 00:24:08.669
Absolutely.
00:24:08.989 --> 00:24:23.309
And I I know just for me personally, and that you know, you listeners at home, you know, I talked about having ADHD before, and that that's one of the things that when I think back, didn't recognize how important and valuable it is for me.
00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:25.789
I'm so grateful I don't need to worry about the billing.
00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:31.869
I'm so grateful I don't need to worry about some of these other pieces, with just kind of the nature of being in the group practice.
00:24:31.949 --> 00:24:39.149
And also the idea of not needing to worry about like even be for service, you know, at the the benefit of being salary.
00:24:39.229 --> 00:24:41.309
And, you know, uh, there's pros and cons to that.
00:24:41.389 --> 00:24:43.869
You know, there's the the earning potential.
00:24:44.349 --> 00:24:52.429
But the idea that I don't need to keep track of that and it's consistent as long as I'm hitting these certain metrics, and you know, thankfully it I continue to.
00:24:52.589 --> 00:24:56.349
Um and I I can have that reliability.
00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:11.149
And so I think that business sense is such an important piece because I know when we started talking about psych to practice and developing further, there was a bit of like a deer in the headlights with some of the conversations when we're talking about, you know, like the idea of like, what is an S-corp?
00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:15.549
I have no, and so it's kind of taking on some of these lofty ideas.
00:25:15.629 --> 00:25:31.869
And again, if if I were doing that individually, even if it was a sole proprietorship, I then need to understand all the ins and outs of a sole proprietorship comparatively to an LLC, like those elements of that vague awareness, but enough that I'm willing to kind of go and rely on myself.
00:25:32.109 --> 00:25:32.589
I don't know.
00:25:32.749 --> 00:25:38.669
And so I my concept early on was like, oh, I guess you know, private practice is when you know you've made it.
00:25:38.829 --> 00:25:38.989
Right.
00:25:39.229 --> 00:25:47.069
And it's very much shifted into that's a lot that I don't necessarily know that I want to keep and manage and maintain in this way.
00:25:47.149 --> 00:25:49.149
And it frees me up to then pursue other aspects.
00:25:49.229 --> 00:25:57.309
Kind of like you know, the podcast and growing into the continuum education side that really is an interest that I never really knew that was there or feasible.
00:25:57.469 --> 00:26:00.509
So um, yeah, diversity is an important piece here.
00:26:00.749 --> 00:26:01.149
Oh, yeah.
00:26:01.229 --> 00:26:04.109
I mean, I think I think that's the the piece that's important.
00:26:04.189 --> 00:26:15.709
And and you know, I I don't know, I I think for some people, like private practice or independent practice seems like this this thing we're supposed to attain.
00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:19.629
And yeah, I I tell people all the time, it's not that's not for everyone.
00:26:19.709 --> 00:26:43.389
I mean, I I've consulted with gosh, I don't even know how many practices, and you know, it it's interesting because you know, how many people really, you know, it some think they make more money doing it, and they're kind of like, and then then I kind of go like, well, let's kind of look at like you know, your budget, and they're like, oh my gosh, I make 30% less than I did when I worked for somebody else.
00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:58.509
And yeah, like it's like so you know, if you're just by yourself, like you do have expenses, and on paper, it looks like you're collecting more an hour, but you have to look that out as far as like what really are you making?
00:26:58.749 --> 00:27:00.029
Are you profiting?
00:27:00.269 --> 00:27:01.629
And I think that's hard.
00:27:01.789 --> 00:27:05.709
I mean, I think it's it's again, I mean, they don't teach that in grad school.
00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:19.069
Yeah, yeah, it's uh I I got it through taking other business classes early in my undergrad and then applying it elsewhere, and then kind of going, okay, like I know how to do this.
00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:21.549
But you know, it's it's interesting.
00:27:21.629 --> 00:27:39.229
I mean, and and I think yeah, I I was just talking with someone just recently who, you know, did that, you know, made that move and uh was happy initially, and you know, and now, you know, they kind of were like, I don't know that I want to do this.
00:27:39.389 --> 00:27:41.549
Like, I, you know, I I think I made a mistake.
00:27:41.629 --> 00:27:43.309
Like I'm two years in.
00:27:43.709 --> 00:27:58.589
I work as much as I think I can, but in 40 hours I can't make enough and do all of the paperwork and the billing and um you know the marketing and all these other variables.
00:27:58.749 --> 00:28:04.189
And you know, this individual is kind of like, yeah, I think I'm gonna I think I want to go and work for somebody else.
00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:06.109
Like I think I'm I I want to move on.
00:28:06.269 --> 00:28:09.069
Like that was a better quality of life for me.
00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:12.829
Um, and you know, and I had said to them, yeah, like that's okay.
00:28:12.909 --> 00:28:14.189
Like that's not a failure.
00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:19.149
Like, don't like it's it, you don't have to love running a business.
00:28:19.309 --> 00:28:22.829
Like, if you're gonna do it, you have to really want to do it.
00:28:23.149 --> 00:28:24.269
I just like it.
00:28:24.349 --> 00:28:26.349
Like, so for me, I enjoyed it.
00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:39.309
I so I could still see 30 to 35 clinical hours and then know I was gonna work another 25 hours doing business stuff because I liked it.
00:28:39.469 --> 00:28:41.229
It was it was something I was into.
00:28:41.549 --> 00:28:44.189
No one should have to feel they want to do that.
00:28:44.349 --> 00:28:54.029
Like, that's you know, and you know, there you know, I I always say when I when I do truly fully retire, my retirement's gonna be working for another practice.
00:28:54.109 --> 00:28:58.269
Like I'll get I I'll apply and I don't want all the other stuff at some point.
00:28:58.429 --> 00:29:00.109
I just don't want to be a psychologist.
00:29:00.189 --> 00:29:02.829
Like I love that part of my identity.
00:29:02.909 --> 00:29:03.949
Like I want to do that.
00:29:04.109 --> 00:29:10.589
But I also know I want to cut back on the work that I've had to put in to have a group practice for a while.
00:29:10.749 --> 00:29:14.109
And now that's less that I'm now independent on my own.
00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:15.789
I'm only accountable to me.
00:29:15.949 --> 00:29:20.989
But yeah, I mean it's it it it's not everybody's cup of tea, and I think that's okay.
00:29:21.069 --> 00:29:22.509
And we have to kind of judge that.
00:29:22.589 --> 00:29:26.669
And I think people who want to go into it, educate yourself in business.
00:29:26.909 --> 00:29:31.789
Don't just assume that just because you hang up a shingle, you understand all of it.
00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:39.709
And there's billing laws, and there's employment laws, and there's all these things that you have to put the time in to learn.
00:29:39.869 --> 00:29:45.069
And I would say probably the main one that most people miss is learn accounting.
00:29:45.229 --> 00:29:47.869
Learn learn accounting really, really well.
00:29:48.029 --> 00:29:56.109
Know how to read balance sheets and create budgets and look at cash flow and know what that really means.
00:29:56.589 --> 00:30:05.469
Find something that you, you know, I I like the profit first books, which are a type of accounting that you can do.
00:30:05.629 --> 00:30:10.189
That's how I've run most of my businesses, and that works for me.
00:30:10.829 --> 00:30:16.909
But like, you gotta get into it, you gotta understand it, you have to kind of live it and breathe it a little bit.
00:30:17.229 --> 00:30:21.709
But because I did that, I knew what to expect.
00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:27.229
And I I think probably, you know, I'll never forget the first business manager I hired.
00:30:27.309 --> 00:30:31.389
Like, I was finally at a point where it was like, okay, I need somebody else to help me.
00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:40.829
So I hired this business manager, and we were talking, and I was telling her how much each room in my office costs to run a day.
00:30:40.989 --> 00:30:42.029
And she's like, What?
00:30:42.189 --> 00:30:48.189
And I'm like, yeah, like that office that costs this much a day to run this office.
00:30:48.269 --> 00:30:51.229
Like, so I had figured out what my expenses were.
00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:57.069
I divided it by my square feet, and I knew what revenue I had to generate in each office.
00:30:57.229 --> 00:31:00.989
And it was so funny because she's like, Wow, this like that's kind of crazy.
00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:02.989
I'm like, well, it's an expense.
00:31:03.149 --> 00:31:09.869
Like, you know, and and I used to joke, I used to say, you know, I know I know how much toilet paper we use.
00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:12.189
Um, but that's that's an expense.
00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:16.269
Like, that's something we don't think that we have to buy, but it's part of what we do.
00:31:16.589 --> 00:31:33.469
And so learning that and knowing it and being able to say, yeah, like it's not just that I have this rent, like if I pay this much for this building, how much does each of those spaces have to generate in revenue so that we can be successful?
00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:38.429
And that's a lot of thinking, that's a lot of hours that you put in to do that.
00:31:38.589 --> 00:31:39.709
But then it gets easy.
00:31:39.789 --> 00:31:49.549
Like, I think, you know, that was hard the first few years, but you know, now I can go to a building and go, okay, in a few minutes I know what my expenses are going to look like.
00:31:49.949 --> 00:31:52.029
That comes with a lot of time and practice.
00:31:52.829 --> 00:32:10.829
And, you know, I keep kind of thinking back to this idea like of the importance of being open to the diversifying piece and you know, those individuals that, you know, the this episode's not meant to be disillusioning, but maybe that there is a sense of like questioning, like, oh, you know, I do I really want all of that?
00:32:11.069 --> 00:32:26.909
You know, and and I don't I don't think that there should be a sense of like dismissing it immediately, but it there it is important and valuable to consider these aspects of it earlier on rather than, you know, and maybe it is a trial and error bit of piece, but like not relying on that.
00:32:27.149 --> 00:32:36.109
And you know, for for at least the first few years of my my career, there was this kind of thought of like, oh, I'm I'm probably gonna before I retire, I'll probably be in private practice.
00:32:36.189 --> 00:32:39.389
And I'm so grateful now that I know I don't really ever want to be in private practice.
00:32:39.469 --> 00:32:39.949
I don't know.
00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:44.269
And so knowing earlier on that, well, what do I want to do?
00:32:44.349 --> 00:32:46.109
And like being open to questioning that.
00:32:46.269 --> 00:33:02.109
And, you know, the more individuals that we've talked with on the podcast or that we've kind of conducted webinars with, and hearing a lot of their stories, and I love that that's part of our podcast is like when we have a guest, we hear what's their pathway, and because so many can be diverse.
00:33:02.189 --> 00:33:23.709
And I mean, Freila Mandy is like, you know, so it's such a cool dynamic that she's able to kind of go and fulfill, or um, you know, if individuals who are really interested in doing their research, or you know, I and I really think if we step back and look at what are the different kind of through threads when it comes to the mental health field, each one of those is a potential avenue to pursue.
00:33:23.949 --> 00:33:54.189
So, you know, if it is looking at legislation or being on a board, if it is, you know, writing or presenting, if it's going in and you know, being a a cons or for a consult or be, you know, being able to develop tests, like, you know, all of these things that we might utilize and not really consider, or you know, if it's uh doing uh help or a hotline, you know, like you know, uh 988 call, like building those, whatever the like those various aspects, and like each one could be something to consider.
00:33:54.349 --> 00:34:04.429
And there's probably a lot that we don't want to, and like we can cut out immediately, but don't be overly restrictive, because I think in that like we might miss out or not even really be aware of certain things.
00:34:04.509 --> 00:34:08.029
I I know I wasn't before this opportunity, and thank goodness.
00:34:08.349 --> 00:34:16.509
And that was an opportunity I had to kind of take a bit of a risk, but it wasn't something that you know, if I let that pass by, I don't know where I'd be at, right?
00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:18.670
You know, or it would be very different.
00:34:18.829 --> 00:34:34.829
So be open to taking those risks and stepping outside, but also be cautious when that stepping outside has you solely relying on yourself too early or without considering maybe some of those entrepreneurship, because entrepreneurship is kind of a necessity if we're solely relying on ourselves.
00:34:35.069 --> 00:34:37.150
And and I I think that's that's a great point.
00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:41.230
I think the other thing is it's just it's having people really do their research.
00:34:41.390 --> 00:35:06.190
You know, I mean it's I uh I was asked several months ago, probably back in January-ish, uh from a school psychologist who was you know kind of tired of kind of public education, not because of the job, but really was just at a point in their life with family that they were looking more from a revenue standpoint, like they they needed more income.
00:35:06.350 --> 00:35:10.510
And so, you know, they asked if I would kind of work with them.
00:35:10.590 --> 00:35:18.590
And so we kind of spent much time kind of talking about, you know, okay, like if you do go on your own, like what's what's the risks that come?
00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:22.110
What are the what are the things that are are great?
00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:29.550
And there are some great parts about it and that you're gonna love, but what are also the things that might be uncomfortable?
00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:36.750
That like the fact that somebody might not pay their bill, and you don't have income for for that week.
00:35:36.910 --> 00:35:39.150
Like, how how do you handle those things?
00:35:39.390 --> 00:35:51.230
And so it was interesting because we had this great conversation, and it led to a different path, and it led to like, okay, like because this individual was like, Yeah, I don't know.
00:35:51.389 --> 00:35:54.590
Like, I keep, I think I want to do it, but I don't know.
00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:56.510
And I said, Well, what do you really want?
00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:58.030
Like, let's really kind of talk.
00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:03.470
And so it ended up being like, okay, like I need to make X amount of dollars.
00:36:03.710 --> 00:36:08.829
I'm willing to give this much time in addition to my 40 hours a week.
00:36:09.070 --> 00:36:13.150
And so we started exploring what other things, and and it was interesting.
00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:17.869
Ended up fast forward now, you know, I guess nine months ahead.
00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:25.230
And this individual still works at the same job that he had, because it wasn't that he was running from that job.
00:36:25.389 --> 00:36:29.789
There were some things he doesn't didn't like, but he's like, no, I kind of like it overall.
00:36:30.030 --> 00:36:46.909
But he ended up finding this side gig where he re reads reports for cyber charter schools to make sure that their reports they get from their contractors are at a high enough quality to make educational decisions.
00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:50.829
So he's basically kind of their review process.
00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:55.470
He can do it from home, he can do it a few hours a night.
00:36:55.710 --> 00:36:57.789
It actually pays pretty well.
00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:04.110
It's given him a pretty nice bump yearly in his salary, and he does it from home.
00:37:04.269 --> 00:37:06.269
So he he doesn't have set hours.
00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:11.230
He's he basically they're like, you have to do these within a five-day period.
00:37:11.389 --> 00:37:14.990
So he can go to his kids' games and not miss them.
00:37:15.150 --> 00:37:20.429
And when they go to bed, he reviews a few reports and makes comments and submits them online.
00:37:21.470 --> 00:37:22.429
Game changer.
00:37:22.750 --> 00:37:22.990
Yeah.
00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:29.949
You know, but the initial was I need to go into private practice because I think that's how I'm gonna make more.
00:37:30.110 --> 00:37:34.510
And honestly, he probably makes more not going into private practice.
00:37:34.750 --> 00:37:42.750
He has benefits, he has all these other things that he doesn't have to pay for, and he's found a pretty decent way to make extra money.
00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:44.909
Like this is it's a great option.
00:37:45.230 --> 00:37:48.269
That's why we have to think, I think, outside the box sometimes.
00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:53.470
And really, like, I think when we're in that phase, we have to first ask ourselves why.
00:37:53.630 --> 00:37:54.990
Why, why do we want it?
00:37:55.230 --> 00:37:57.150
Like, what is it that we want about it?
00:37:57.309 --> 00:37:58.909
Not what we're gonna run away from.
00:37:59.070 --> 00:38:03.789
Like, we might not like other things in our job, but this change, what do we want?
00:38:03.949 --> 00:38:08.030
And if it's just financial, that may not be the right reason.
00:38:08.190 --> 00:38:14.510
You know, for me, it became the reason of I love the challenge of development.
00:38:14.590 --> 00:38:16.750
Like, I and I've learned that with myself.
00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:21.710
Like, I I love building things, not Legos.
00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:29.150
No, I do like building Legos too, but it's but like I love that idea of going, okay, how can I make this work?
00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:31.869
And I like the struggle.
00:38:32.030 --> 00:38:35.550
I I like the idea of okay, that didn't work.
00:38:35.630 --> 00:38:36.829
What else can we do?
00:38:36.990 --> 00:38:38.909
And it's this constant part.
00:38:38.990 --> 00:38:43.949
And I also realize that there's a percentage of the time I'm gonna fail at it.
00:38:44.030 --> 00:38:46.909
And I'm also not worried about that.
00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:49.309
Like I'm okay if I don't succeed.
00:38:49.470 --> 00:38:55.389
I I mean I've I've owned many businesses, not all of them have been a success.
00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:58.990
Many have been, and I'm lucky for that.
00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:02.909
But others, you know, we thought it was a good concept and it wasn't.
00:39:02.990 --> 00:39:08.030
Um we put 110% in and it just never got there.
00:39:08.349 --> 00:39:08.990
That's okay.
00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:12.030
Like I I I'm okay with that stress tolerance.
00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:14.110
I'm okay experiencing that.
00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:16.429
Um, but you have to ask.
00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:27.150
Like, so for me, I ended up starting when I now ask myself questions, it's okay, my why is usually what can I kind of develop out of this?
00:39:27.309 --> 00:39:33.309
What can we take that doesn't exist and what can we think out of the box and create something?
00:39:33.789 --> 00:39:36.670
And that's what makes me excited.
00:39:37.470 --> 00:39:45.550
I'm lucky that has turned into some other financial things, but you know, but it's also risks, yeah.
00:39:45.630 --> 00:39:52.590
So and so for me, like when I look back at all of my diversification, I think that's the common thread for me.
00:39:52.670 --> 00:39:58.590
Like, so writing a book, hey, people may never read it, but I'm okay with that.
00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:01.789
Like it's it's building something, it's creating something.
00:40:02.110 --> 00:40:04.590
Test development has been creating something.
00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:12.190
Owning practices and private practices and group practices, it's owning, it's it's creating something.
00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:16.110
Even the presenting stuff that I do, there's a creation to that.
00:40:16.190 --> 00:40:19.630
There's building new ideas and training other people.
00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:27.949
So for me, I found a common thread that luckily works across a whole bunch of different areas of diversification.
00:40:28.190 --> 00:40:30.670
That may not be everybody's thing, though.
00:40:30.829 --> 00:40:34.429
Like, yeah, that's so that I think that's so you have to ask, like, what is it?
00:40:34.590 --> 00:40:38.190
For the guy I was talking about, his was purely financial.
00:40:38.349 --> 00:40:42.269
It was, you know what, I have my kids are getting older, I need to save more money.
00:40:42.349 --> 00:40:47.230
I'm thinking about college for them, I'm thinking about that's a different question.
00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:48.909
That's a or it's a different answer.
00:40:49.070 --> 00:41:05.150
And so for him, it was like, okay, why do you want to then take all these risks that might be challenging when there's other ways to use your skill set and accomplish the goal of making more money?
00:41:05.470 --> 00:41:07.389
And so he found it.
00:41:07.710 --> 00:41:10.030
So I that's what I would encourage people to do.
00:41:10.110 --> 00:41:11.710
Like, really dig down.
00:41:11.789 --> 00:41:12.510
What do you want?
00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:16.110
Like, what's the thing that's gonna drive you to do it?
00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:18.030
Um, I don't think there's a wrong answer.
00:41:18.190 --> 00:41:18.429
Yeah.
00:41:18.670 --> 00:41:27.230
And and maybe just to piggyback off that, talking about diversifying, like diversifying also can come from outside of mental, like the mental health field.
00:41:27.389 --> 00:41:35.230
Like when you were talking about the you know, the interest in like the business courses and the entrepreneurship and how that became pivotal, uh pivotal in so many ways there.
00:41:35.389 --> 00:41:39.710
And you know, I as you said that, I was thinking for myself, like, what are the the diversifications?
00:41:39.789 --> 00:41:41.789
And part of that is my interest in technology.
00:41:41.949 --> 00:41:43.070
And I really enjoy that.
00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:47.309
And that that had led to kind of our converse first conversation with the podcast.
00:41:47.389 --> 00:42:09.389
And now, you know, even before, like right before we started recording, you know, you were asking about like we were talking about how we're uh we're gonna have a booth at ABCT uh conference in Baltimore uh coming up in November, and you know, we're looking at the badge ribbons, and it's like, hey, you know, design-wise, is that something and that's something that uh it was just more of an interest or a hobby that I've been able to now bring into uh mental health related.
00:42:09.470 --> 00:42:22.990
And so it doesn't have to only stem from mental health qualities or interests, but really kind of looking at ourselves as a whole person rather than just ourselves as a clinician or in the mental health field, and what are those aspects to bring in?
00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:28.590
Because I think that's really when we've had our niche and our nuance, and like we can really get the most out of it.
00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:31.070
Yeah, I mean, I I think you're absolutely.
00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:33.150
I mean, I think that's I think that's a great point.
00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:41.710
And I mean, and I think sometimes it, you know, I've I've had businesses have nothing to do with it and can't even connect them to psychology.
00:42:41.869 --> 00:42:43.150
Like that's been okay.
00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:47.309
But again, it it still met my need.
00:42:47.389 --> 00:42:51.230
Like my again, my interest was in the building part.
00:42:51.470 --> 00:42:54.510
Um, so yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of ways.
00:42:54.590 --> 00:43:08.190
And, you know, I uh I have a colleague of mine who does fitness and really has designed their practice around tying fitness and psychology together.
00:43:08.429 --> 00:43:17.309
And so there's a a both physical and mental training aspect that they do with really high-level athletes.
00:43:17.389 --> 00:43:23.470
But it's not they're not doing sports psychology, it's much more of the physical end of it, but that's their thing.
00:43:23.630 --> 00:43:34.750
Like they're athletic, they they're in the gym all the time, and they found a way to harness some of their psychology skills, but put it into a passion that they they have.
00:43:35.630 --> 00:43:37.789
Technology, I think, is another great way.
00:43:37.949 --> 00:43:44.349
I mean, there's you know, our our uh you know sister podcast uh Beyond the Bot.
00:43:44.429 --> 00:44:08.909
You know, we you know, Adam Lockwood and Dan Frell both have created kind of realms in the AI world where they're able to take that interest and do consulting and to do other things that are not related to their school psychology or clinical practices, that's that really is because of their interest in technology and how we can advance that.
00:44:09.070 --> 00:44:13.070
And you know, that ties to their career, but it also doesn't.
00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:15.630
So yeah, I think there's a lot of ways.
00:44:15.949 --> 00:44:28.990
You know, I I was this summer talking to a psychologist who I won't name it, name the person yet because they they're still in the the the context of it, but they're a foodie.
00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:36.110
They they are like they like to travel around and eat and do things, and and it's something this individual and I have in common.
00:44:36.269 --> 00:45:03.630
So when we're different places, we we tend to eat together, and uh they they were like, hey, like just so you know, like I'm creating this social media business where I'm going to go around to different food places and videotape my reactions to food and great food, but I'm tying it to how food influences our mood and our mental health.
00:45:03.789 --> 00:45:07.630
And and I was like, like, where did that even come from?
00:45:07.789 --> 00:45:12.990
And they were like, and it was interesting because like as they were talking about it, they're like, they think about it.
00:45:13.150 --> 00:45:17.070
Like, what are the memories that you have about certain foods?
00:45:17.230 --> 00:45:20.829
Like that you, when you eat food, does it remind you?
00:45:20.990 --> 00:45:28.349
And I was like, Oh yeah, like I could remember like like there are certain smells of bread, certain kinds of bread that make me think of my grandmother.
00:45:28.429 --> 00:45:30.990
And she's like, Yeah, what do you what's that?
00:45:31.150 --> 00:45:32.670
How does it how do you feel from it?
00:45:32.750 --> 00:45:35.150
And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, it's it's joyful.
00:45:35.309 --> 00:45:38.190
Like, there's this, so I was like, brilliant.
00:45:38.349 --> 00:45:55.710
Like this is, you know, now I'm I'm not giving all the details, so I'm being pretty vague in the concept, but I will say the idea is is fantastic and already has leveraged sponsorships and already has all of these things.
00:45:55.949 --> 00:46:13.470
And it was just sitting down and having dinner one day with somebody, and and somebody ate the that she was eating with said, Man, every time I get this dish, like I just get this joy that comes over me because it reminds me of my childhood.
00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:17.230
And it was like, boom, light bulb goes off.
00:46:17.470 --> 00:46:26.909
And like, okay, like I I would enjoy, even if I don't make money, I would enjoy sidelining it and doing this as a project.
00:46:26.990 --> 00:46:45.630
And then all of a sudden, found out like, wait, there are sponsors that would do this, and um, it will turn into everywhere she travels, she's gonna target certain restaurants and talk about the food and tie it back to psychology.
00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:46.349
Brilliant.
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:49.789
I would have never thought of that, but what a great extension.
00:46:50.750 --> 00:46:57.230
And just like the opportunities are out there, and probably a lot of the ways we would encourage our clients to take healthy risks.
00:46:57.550 --> 00:46:59.309
We need to be open to healthy risks too.
00:46:59.470 --> 00:47:10.590
If we're looking to make the changes, and certainly not advocating for us upending things, but if there becomes that time, you know, don't the the path isn't linear.
00:47:10.909 --> 00:47:12.909
It's expanding and it's a it's a web.
00:47:12.990 --> 00:47:18.510
And so you know, consider the options before just taking the singular path that's right in front of you.
00:47:18.909 --> 00:47:19.470
That's right.
00:47:19.630 --> 00:47:20.829
I couldn't say it better.
00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:23.710
With that, well we hope you enjoyed this episode today.
00:47:23.789 --> 00:47:26.990
Uh, we'll be back in two weeks, but until then, be well.
00:47:27.230 --> 00:47:28.349
Stay psyched.
