WEBVTT
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Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast.
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This is Scott.
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I'm gonna be your host uh again today.
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Hey, we have a special guest with us today.
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Um, Matthew Sharp is back with us.
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We did a previous podcast together.
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You want to say hi, Matt?
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Hi, Matt.
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Couldn't resist.
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I kind of teed that one up for you.
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You did.
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That's okay.
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I'll always swing at that one.
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Good to see you.
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How you been?
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Yeah, I'm doing great, man.
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How about you?
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Um, why don't you just take a second and remind everybody about uh who you are, what you're up to, what God's got going on in your life.
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Yeah, so a couple of hats.
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Uh, I've been busy with all of them.
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I am an ordained pastor, which is always great fun.
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Get to preach in different places.
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My full-time job right now is I am a licensed professional counselor, psychotherapist in private practice in Muskegon, keeping busy with that.
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And then I'm also a performing stand-up comedian.
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And people ask, what does that have to do with anything else?
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Like, well, because both of those other jobs are really funny.
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So I don't know.
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It's it's been great and been keeping busy with a lot of shows and a lot of uh kind of combined events at churches.
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We're just out uh we're calling it the Tundra Tour.
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We went to South uh Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and got to do about three different shows out there over spring break, which is uh if you're gonna go somewhere south for spring break, I recommend South Dakota because nothing says summer like like South Dakota.
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No, that sounds great, man.
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Um sounds like God's got a lot of things that he's doing with you guys in your ministry right now.
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That's really cool.
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Yeah.
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Um, how about books?
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Uh now last time you're here, we talked a little bit about your book, which was called From My Throne to His.
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Did I get it right?
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Yes, you did.
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From My Throne to His.
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And that's I still love uh love that book, love putting it out there.
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And and for those who don't know, I literally Googled uh what are the most awkward, uncomfortable, confusing Bible passages out there, and I wrote a devotional on each one because because normally as Christians we tend to just don't that doesn't make sense, skip over and go to the happy parts that I like and can put on a coffee mug or something.
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And so I just said, no, let's look at all the verses that don't make any sense and just look at them.
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And some of them are hilarious and some of them are awkward, and yeah.
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And so you got to put them there for a reason.
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They did, and so we we yeah, we made a devotional about that one.
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And um I'm currently finishing up the editing, my first draft of a book that right now will be tentatively titled The Jester: Building Resilience Through Humor.
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I do a lot of corporate speaking for different agencies, and I kind of combine the worlds of psychotherapy and comedy as a way of building resilience in people.
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And so this is a book that would go along with some of my uh keynotes and presentations and workshops that people can grab and take with them.
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So it's it'll be fun.
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Dude, I'm I definitely want to get that when it comes out because like I know of no other people that do everything that you do that you've been called to do with that combination.
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You're like uh unicorn in in the ministry world.
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I like to say rhinoceros, a little heavier than a unicorn, but still kind of unique.
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So no, totally cool, man.
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I uh I just love it.
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Um so you've got a few things that are on your heart today, and um there are also some things that I have on my heart, and I know that um absolutely they're gonna be on the hearts of many of our listeners as well.
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So, where should we go in our conversation?
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What what do you see God doing um in your practice?
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What's going on um with some of the things that you're observing?
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Well, in in private practice right now, due to my credentialing both as a counselor and a pastor, I've sort of landed in the world of helping people recover from spiritual abuse.
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And and that's always a tricky one.
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Yeah.
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Trying to make make sense of that with people because uh and it happens everywhere.
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And so I have a lot of people right now on my caseload that are dealing with some form of spiritual abuse or spiritual trauma or some sort of wounding from a church or a church leader or a church system of some kind.
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And so trying to help them kind of heal their wounds and find what does faith look like after uh they've, you know, many of them grew up in, just like most of us did, we grew up in a church environment.
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We uh went to church, loved Jesus, sang the songs, you know, did the crafts and the motions at VBS, and then uh something happens and why we walk away for a variety of reasons.
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Yeah.
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I know that like that's an interesting term.
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I don't know if I've ever heard it called spiritual abuse, but it's uh it's apt, it's a good fit for a lot of the things that are going on behind the scenes, and I I think many people that take a look at the church from the outside, they're incredibly aware of some of the scandals that go on and some of the things that um sometimes get swept under the rug.
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And but I I think the other side of that is though there are a lot of us who as pastors are deeply concerned about how do we help people that have been through that because we see the broken coming into our churches um very skittish, if for lack of a better word.
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Yes.
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And um as shepherds, we want to know how to love them and help them as well.
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Um so it sounds like that's what you're seeing too.
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Yeah, and I see it from both sides.
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I've seen uh you know pastors who've come in who have been either let go from a church or had a conflict uh due to leadership styles, and and more I see the the people who would identify as uh victims or people in recovery or healing wounds uh inflicted by churches.
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So yeah, it's it's good that it's on our hearts and minds as pastors, and so that's important.
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So, like, do you see different categories of people that have been hurt in different ways, or what would be some examples of kind of the folks that you're you're trying to help?
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Yeah, I think you know what I'm what I'm seeing, there's probably kind of two big categories.
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Uh the first one is probably I would say the easiest to recognize and and the hardest to work through just because of the scope.
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And that that's when there's actually a a crime or an actual abuse.
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Um we've had a lot of churches in the news for different um you know sexual assaults or crimes that have been taking place because of church leaders.
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Um so obviously that's an abuse issue, that's a mandatory reporting issue.
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And and it's tough because I've talked to so many people who have either been the victim of sexual abuse in church, uh either in the building or because of a church leader, or have known someone who was abused uh by a volunteer or a church leader, and it it's actually very painful to me how few churches follow through on their mandated reporting.
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Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one.
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Dude, that you you're hitting it there too, because I think on the one hand, people may think that you have um as a pastor, you have a a client privilege where you can keep all that stuff safe, but many don't realize that.
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No, like um, if I have somebody come into my office and counsel me about an abusive situation, or especially with a minor, I'm gonna get on the phone like that day and report it.
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And um that's what we are obligated morally, spiritually, ethically to do.
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And legally.
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And legally.
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We forget that.
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The the state code in Michigan where we're sitting right now is written, and most states have it, where we have clergy privilege, uh, but that does not extend to uh child abuse that is happening right now.
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Whether it's you know, because of one of our people in a church situation or just in general, if we suspect child abuse, we are mandatory reporters.
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It's not a well, I think I will, no, I will.
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I have to do that.
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Yeah.
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And uh I'm sure I have no doubt that in the near future we'll see, as we saw with with other denominations, uh we'll see people who are suing their churches for not reporting adequately.
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And they'll they'll win, you know, because um we as church leaders, we don't like the fact that the people that we lead and shepherd could also be perpetrators, you know, and or that those of us who are shepherds are the perpetrators ourselves.
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And so it's that's a tough conversation, man.
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But the the absolute need is if there is even not even actual abuse, suspected abuse.
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Yeah, we have to call.
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Yeah, that's that's a great point, right?
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Yeah, it's not like we need to see the evidence first.
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If we just hear it or suspect it, we gotta re man that report to do so.
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One of the um one of the other things though is like it's not good for anybody.
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Like, even if you're not in a church that has a sexual abuse allegation, like it it's all faith-based ministries to get a black eye when this stuff happens and when we see it go public as well.
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And so I think we just need to kind of lock arms together and and try to unravel what's really going on here and to help people as much as we can.
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Um when you see folks that come in that have been victims of um this first category that we're talking about, what's a good way to begin to help the healing process?
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To believe them.
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Yeah.
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I mean, just first and foremost, because the for anyone who has been you know sexually abused, that is a trauma.
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That there's trauma therapy that is needed and care and restoration, and the what that trauma does to a person's self-concept, um, very few of us unless you've experienced it, can understand that.
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But when it's a spiritual component, I've heard there's there's well, we would say there's a lot of gaslighting as well, where where people will say, Well, the that perpetrator, he would never do something like that, or she would never do something like that.
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Um or there would be some discrediting of the person who is the victim.
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And so my my starting point is like I don't know if you're telling me the truth.
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I don't know what really happened.
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I wasn't there, but I will believe everything you tell me.
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And and then pretty quickly for me, I I obviously we're not on video right now, people can't see me.
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I'm I'm a physically large man.
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And so I I very quickly, at least even as a therapist, bring in, hey, I'm I'm a big dude.
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And if you're not comfortable talking to a guy who's physically big, I'm a pastor, yeah.
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I want to be a safe place for you, a presence for you.
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Yeah, and if that's not okay, I totally understand.
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I've got some amazing female colleagues who do amazing work with trauma.
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I'm happy to introduce you and just be out of the out of the picture completely because I don't need to be here.
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I need you to get better.
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No, that that's an important thing that you're mentioning right there, too, because we have to be a safe place for people where um they can feel like they can be trusted, and that's the foundation of um the the way that we help and the way that we believe them.
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And many of us we have rules in place that like I won't counsel another female one-on-one with a closed door, like either we'll have another woman come in here, or if it's um a good situation, we'll just have women outside the office or whatever that looks like.
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But we take um safeguards to be able to protect people as well.
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Yep.
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So once we um begin to develop um a foundation of trust and security in the relationship, and we begin to counsel them, what are you seeing that like kind of helps people come to an understanding of of what to do from there?
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Well, one of the um besides the trauma work, which that's a of course, you know, you asked me at the beginning, do you want water?
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And of course, now I'm like, uh I'm good.
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It sounds like I've been smoking for 30 years.
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Don't mind me, folks, it's allergy season.
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But um, no, after we get past that point of just saying, I'm gonna believe you, uh, there's another very important uh step, at least for me, is to recognize I don't need my client to leave therapy with my belief system.
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Okay.
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You know, because if if I have been hurt by a church, the what makes it so painful, what makes spiritual abuse different than just regular emotional abuse or uh a verbal abuse of some kind is that we feel like God, the the victims often feel like God is on the side of the abuser because we as the spiritual leaders will use words like God said you know, God God's word says you have to do what I say, and then then follow that by doing something horrific, whatever the case may be.
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And so there's so a lot of the words that we use to speak hope and healing in people's lives, you know, redemption, salvation, uh, love, um God bless you, God loves you.
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Those are also words that have been used in a power imbalance to coerce people's behaviors in unhealthy churches.
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And as a result, the words that I would use as a pastor to bring healing have been used as a weapon against the victim.
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And so so I have to be able to say, like, you might not leave this office as a Christian, but that that's your choice.
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And I I obviously I want everyone to believe in Jesus and spend eternity with him, of course.
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At the same time, I'm gonna respect that you might not be there right now because of what's been done to you.
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Right.
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And I've had clients who have walked away from faith, deconstructed completely.
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I've had people who've walked away from faith, deconstructed, and then reconstructed.
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And and just walking with them in a place where I'm not projecting my desire for them to have a relationship with Jesus.
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I'm just loving and accepting them as they are, saying, Hey, you're you're not cool with Jesus right now.
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I get that.
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Yeah.
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Somebody with his name, you know, on his someone with Jesus' name on their jersey hurt you.
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Yeah.
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I'm not gonna tell you you gotta like him because of what this other person did.
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That that's really smart, you know.
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And I think a lot of times as pastors, we use what I call insider language.
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You think we do?
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Yeah, right.
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Like we're gonna take a love offering now.
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This would be great.
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So this this churchy stuff, this churchy language, and um we just kind of expect everybody to know that.
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And it's it's so arrogant of us to be able to do that.
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Yeah.
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Yes, it is.
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And and and just it's not even arrogant.
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We're just we're so used to our little bubbles.
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Like when I grew up, our church had a narthex.
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Yeah, right.
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Have you ever tried to explain what a narthex is?
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Isn't that like part of an insect's body or something?
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I heard it was a hemorrhoid cream once.
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That's so good.
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Yeah, it's he rash try narthex.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so we just use these words because we're familiar with them in our everyday life.
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Yeah, you know, and so but what does that mean to anybody?
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Now, for sure, for an outsider, trying to explain church lingo is challenging.
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Yeah, but now imagine that you've been um this would be an odd example, but like you got beat up in the narthex.
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Right.
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You know, just to physically assault the pow.
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Right.
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Okay, now whatever that word meant to you before, now it's gonna have this added element of danger every time I'm talking about the coffee and yeah, dude.
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And so that goes for all of our churchy language when there's been spiritual abuse.
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God loves you.
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Yeah, he loves me so much, he let the so-and-so do this to me.
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Okay, I got I I have to basically it puts me in the position as a therapist, it puts me in the position of saying, I'm here to serve you.
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Yeah, I'm not here to project my agenda, I'm not here to, you know, yeah, throw my beliefs at you.
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I'm just here to live to serve you.
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I don't even say love you because that that can be triggering.
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Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
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Because that because for so many people that has strings attached.
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Yeah, yeah, you know, and so I'm just here to serve you and help you on whatever journey you need to take.
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Seems like a monster task sometimes to because people I think used a good word project, um they take what happened by their abuser and they project that onto Jesus also.
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Yes.
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When we know, as pastors, the profound love and grace and desire for Jesus for us to have healthy flourishing lives.
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And that association that's made with um a human-gone rogue to Jesus is something that hopefully we are able to to mend and you know, give ideas on what the healthy relationship that Jesus wants.
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But getting there is a journey.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It it is it is definitely a challenge.
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I and I will say the the journeys that I have been privileged to be a part of.
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Um you know, they've been good, they've been painful, they've been redemptive, they've been broken.
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I've seen marriages fall apart because of it, because one spouse doesn't want to leave a church and the other spouse has been wounded.
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I've seen kids who have been messed up by parents, and and yet I've also seen some of those same kids bring their parents to therapy because then the parent is starting to realize, wow, this was a messed up situation I put my kid in.
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Yeah.
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And so there's also tremendous, you know, again, I'm gonna use that churchy word redemption.
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Yeah, but there's just that incredible amount of we'll just say recovery, I'll use the more clinical word.
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When when people are allowed to, I mean they're validated in their pain, yeah, they're allowed to uh be broken.
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Yeah, we don't realize it because we want people to be better.
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And so if somebody comes up and says, Oh, yeah, I'm really questioning if Jesus is real.
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Oh no, you gotta believe he's real.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.160
Here's the case for Christ, here's this book, here's this course, here's this information, here's the Bible, whap, there you go.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.440
Okay, and they're never gonna ask a question to us again.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:04.559
Yeah, but allowing people in any way to to to struggle, to question, to ask, why do we believe this in general?
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.000
That's just a good disposition.
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:15.200
Now, when somebody's been wounded by the church, letting them breathe and letting them just okay, I don't know if I can trust that God is really good.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:15.920
Okay.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.119
Now, every every part of my theological brain is like, yes, he is.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:19.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.599
I don't I don't need to convince you of that.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.839
Yeah, God is good whether I convince you or not.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:29.519
So I'm just gonna I'm just gonna sit here and let them kind of breathe in that space and say, Is God good?
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.559
Well, I think he is, but that's not important.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:33.519
What do you think?
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:46.720
Yeah, I like to tell people like there's a lot of times we have what I call just a ministry of presence, yes, of just being there with people, just crying with them if they're crying, just um listening, right?
00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:55.839
Um, I've no but um and I think that's a a great ministry that we're all called to have.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:07.279
Yes, you know, it's it's not just clergy or people that get paid for you know um their vocation, but it's it's like all of us can be the ministry of presence with people as well.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.359
Um have you ever let me just shift it a little bit.
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:19.039
Like, do you ever have a chance to work with people who are actually the perpetrators of spiritual abuse?
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.000
Yes, yeah.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.599
And what's that look like?
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:22.319
Yeah.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:33.839
Anytime, and I I have a couple people who have who are on my caseload right now and have been on my caseload who are perpetrators of different kinds of abuse, you know, spiritual, uh, sexual, physical, others.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.319
Uh many of them, you know, we know they're perpetrators when they come in, and the reason they're there is for court ordered treatment.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.960
Okay, so okay, something happened.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.240
Um it it's an interesting journey, you know.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:53.599
In in some senses, I would say it's almost easier to work with from my emotional perspective, it's easier to work with the offenders.
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:54.000
Yeah.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:56.720
Because I don't have to worry about their emotions.
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:57.119
Yeah.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:58.079
They're they don't have any.
00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.519
That's a broad generalization.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:00.000
Sorry, I shouldn't say.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:00.640
No, I get you.
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:07.599
But but for someone who who's committed um abuse against another person, there's a weird almost matter-of-factness.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.200
Oh, yeah, you know, this happened and this happened, and you know, but it did.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:19.680
It's it's almost this bland conversation that to me creates a lot of weird internal chaos of like you just told me you did what and you're just telling me like you ordered breakfast.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.240
Yeah.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:20.799
Okay.
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.200
Um, let's let's dig into that.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.119
Why, why, why is that okay?
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:35.039
Um but but to hear their uh the the recounting of their uh their stories of what happened is very factual.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:41.599
Uh it's not until we get into their trauma that it gets heavy.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:42.240
Okay.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:47.839
You know, because it's almost like, you know, when I when I talk with the abusers, it's almost like I'm reading the police report.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:54.640
Like, here are the facts, these are the facts, I can read the facts, the facts are unpleasant, but uh there's no emotional connection to it, it's just yeah, that shouldn't happen.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:07.839
Do they have like you know, I I'm making huge generalizations, but is there a like a lack of repentance, or is it just like, all right, now I have to face this thing that I got busted for, or a little bit of everything.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.559
Well, we're using that churchy word again, repentance.
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:10.960
Yeah.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:20.000
Um, you know, then there's that question of, you know, do I have remorse, regret, repentance um because I got caught or because I want change?
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:20.640
Right, right.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.599
Well, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive things.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:23.920
Okay.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.119
You know, uh pretty much everyone I've talked to who's ever been caught.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.519
Anytime I've been caught, you know, for speeding, doesn't matter what, uh I regret getting caught.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:31.920
Yeah.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:33.759
Um no nobody likes that.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:51.599
But but you know, the the journey that I get to take with people sometimes is we move past the yeah, I'm here because I'm supposed to be here, I have to be here, the court made me be here, and we get to move into a place of wow, I did the same thing.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:59.759
Um one person, uh, we were doing an exercise, and um it's an active imagination exercise, and it was interesting.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.680
Because we were talking about um let's imagine for a minute uh that the the part of you that committed this crime is sitting in that chair over there and let's let's interview this part of you.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.200
Just an imaginative thing.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:21.839
And I was asking a couple of questions, and it was just this light bulb moment that I was like, uh, how old does this this uh abusive you know part of you uh think you are?
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:29.279
And the gave he said the correct answer that he was, and then kind of I just said, How old does that part think it is?
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:30.640
He goes, 12.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:31.519
Why do I know that?
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.960
I was I don't know.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:34.960
Let's figure that out.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:35.599
Yeah.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.880
Well, guess what happened when that person was 12?
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.200
Yeah.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:40.640
They were the victim of abuse.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:49.519
And so um then it all of a sudden the the connections when that with those moments don't happen often, but when they do, those connections are powerful.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:55.200
And and that's when we can actually see a recognition and a change start to take place.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:02.880
And and honestly, one of the most profound evidences to me that someone is quote better is when they say, Yeah, I can never be around kids ever again.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.200
Or I can never be in that environment ever again.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:05.599
Yeah.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.279
Even if I'm better, I'm never going to be.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.599
Yeah.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.000
Okay.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.599
Now we're starting to head in the right direction.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.000
You know, it's that old axiom, like hurt people, hurt people.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:14.559
Yes.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:25.119
And um I've had this a couple of times though, where it's hard for me, if I'm all honest here, to be really sympathetic with an abuser.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:25.359
Yeah.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:36.880
Like I've had guys in here that have um just um wrecked their their ministry, their marriages, and everything because they're having affairs um while they're pastors.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:50.240
I'm like, dude, what do you what goes through your mind when you just stand in a pulpit and you know, and I look at myself too, you know, I'm not perfect, but shoot, I would never get to that level, I hope, in my heart.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:59.440
And but so do you find that to be a barrier, like when you try to help people, or you just kind of you know put that aside?
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.359
Partially, you know, yeah, we put it aside.
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:07.440
But the other the other piece at a very real level, you know, when we say we're not perfect, we're often doing lip service to that.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:07.920
Yeah.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:16.319
Romans 2 will teach us that if I judge someone for their sin, I'm at fault because I'm guilty of the same sin.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.200
Well, I was like, okay, I've never abused a kid.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.599
How can I how can I be guilty of that same sin?
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:28.400
I've never when I teach that part, I'll say, like, you know, I'll ask a like a class or a group, like, is using meth is that a sin?
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:30.400
Well, everyone will say yes, we shouldn't use meth.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.880
Like a good, I think Jesus can get on board with that one, yeah.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.960
I say, how many of you have ever used meth?
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.680
And I usually only ask that when I can predict the answer is no.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.559
I say, okay, so if I look at it, I I've never used meth.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.400
So if I look at a meth user and say, That's a sin, you're a horrible human being.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.039
I'm judging them, but the Bible says I'm guilty of that same sin.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:49.839
But how could that be?
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.039
I've never taken meth.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.759
Well, that's because sin is not the behavior.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.519
The behavior is the evidence of the sin.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.920
We get hung up on the behavior uh the using the meth or whatever.
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:11.359
Have I ever sought physical pleasure to feel good about myself, whether it's food, whether it's you know, whatever.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:12.480
Yes.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:12.880
Okay.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.359
Okay, I'm guilty of the same thing as a meth user.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:15.920
Gotcha.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:21.119
Have I ever used my position, power, and authority to get what I want from somebody?
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:22.160
Yes.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.720
That's the same underlying sin that an abuser uses.
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:31.279
Now the degree to which I do it is not harmful, but it is the same sin.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.720
You and I are both guilty of that.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:33.920
That's a good word.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:34.880
Yeah, definitely.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.400
And and and we don't like that.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.839
Because I want the abuser to be in a different category.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:40.240
Right.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.160
Because then I can say it's them.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.519
There is no different category, it's us.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:26:11.759
So with that in mind then, and granted, like a lot of this stuff is confidential that we know that other people don't, but how should we respond to both victims and abusers as a church when we have a little bit of an awareness that's going on because we don't want to stigmatize or how does that look?
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.400
You know, that looks like boatloads of wisdom needed.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:26.480
You know, in one sense, if we have a compassionate heart, if we have an empathetic church, taking care of the victims will be the easier task.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:35.279
Not not easy, but easier because we show love, we show compassion, we maintain boundaries, we have good policies, we respect their journeys.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.400
Um that's painful work but good work.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.200
I think the harder work, and I don't have an answer for it, the harder work is how do we minister to the abusers?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:51.359
Because if somebody if somebody walks into the church and says, Hey, I'm a registered sex offender, yeah, okay, I want that person to know Jesus, I don't want them sitting next to my kid necessarily.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:51.759
Yeah.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.039
Well, legally with our kid systems now.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:57.359
Sure.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.240
We have legal boundaries that you know, but still.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:08.000
And at the same token, it's just because somebody's on the registry doesn't mean that they're unsafe right now.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:08.480
Yeah.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.599
You know, how about the person who's not on the registry who's still the abuser?
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.240
How do I find them?
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:19.200
You know, these are tough questions, and the church we tend to spiritually whitewash them, the issues, and move on.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:24.319
And I love bringing up these conversations because there are no good answers, and we have to keep the questions going.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:24.880
Okay.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:36.400
Where can um we go for resources about that was my phone, which was not on mute.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.400
So um, I'm gonna be checking my phone now to make sure that my phone's mute.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.319
I don't know if I'll edit that or not.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.640
Hey.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:43.680
Yeah, it's fine.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.079
Um we we needed some levity.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:47.279
We're having very happy conversations.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:48.240
This is tight.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:28:00.240
Where can we go for research uh resources that for let's say we know a situation that's going on, um, people are coming to us and asking us to help.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:07.039
Do you have any ideas or suggestions where we can go and what would be a good next step for us to to help people?
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.119
Well, there's a couple of good next steps.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.359
Um, you know, again, we you've asked a very broad question, a situation that's happening.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:14.960
There's lots of situations.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.480
Um let me let me make some some generalized statements.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:28.880
Um one, I think every one of us as pastors, if you are serving a church, you you included, good sir, we need a therapist.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:30.960
Yeah, you just have to.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:40.000
Yeah, you know, um, because we we were talking before we went on air about narcissism in pastors, and yeah, and I read the book When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:47.920
I read it expecting to find out about all these other pastors that I know are who are narcissists, and I discovered they are, uh, but so am I.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:48.400
Yeah.
00:28:48.559 --> 00:29:01.119
I mean, anytime we stand in front of the same group of people every week, they give us a special title and a cool parking place, they refer to us as reverend or pastor, it's not a matter of if we're narcissistic, it's how bad and are we aware of it.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:10.400
And so, unless we have somebody that can give us that honest feedback to say, uh, that was a little bit narcissistic, brother, um, we we can miss it.
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.359
So we we need to be doing our own work as pastors.
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.079
And so I encourage every pastor to have a therapist.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:22.240
Don't necessarily call me because I'm only licensed in one state, and my practice is pretty full, but there's a lot of good therapists out there.
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:22.640
Yeah.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:33.359
And uh the other piece too, um, you know, my organization, Stand Up Therapy Live, we do uh obviously we do the comedy piece, but the other side of it is we do training and consulting for churches.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:49.680
We help with uh suicide prevention and awareness, we help with leader training on mandatory reporting, and we help people just kind of be those safe people, those safe churches, and help leaders kind of learn how to address those whatever the whatever the bomb is that might go off.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:30:02.240
Yeah, you know, whether it's uh it's an affair, whether it's a porn usage, whether it's an addiction issue, whatever the problem is, um, you know, we kind of help churches develop you know some systems and plans to help with that.
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.480
Now, uh you're gonna ask me at some point what's your website and it's standardherapy.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.160
And if you go to that, you're gonna see all about my corporate speaking, you're gonna see all about the comedy, you won't see this stuff on there.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:12.480
Okay.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:19.119
But but they can still if you can still reach out to me at that website and just say, you know, we're developing a new website that will have the consulting piece on it.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:25.200
But because I gotta think that's um it's not as uncommon as we would hope it would be.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.279
No, it's not people need to know where to go.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:31.200
What's uncommon is church is dealing with it proactively instead of reactively.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:32.079
Gotcha.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:38.720
So well, it sounds like God has called you to do a good work rate at the time we need it the most.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:39.680
I hope so.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:41.359
And um, yeah.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:42.559
All right.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:47.279
Um, well, anything else on our our hearts today, Matt?
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.400
Well, it's it's raining.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:50.240
Yeah, we got we got deep.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.400
Hey, it's a comedian, we're gonna talk about something funny.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.039
Like, yeah.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:31:00.000
Um well, and to be honest, I've been asked the I've been asked the question, you know, when when we deal with this heavy stuff, what's how does comedy fit into this?
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:00.559
Yeah.
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:11.279
Well, what I what I've seen, and you know, the people who know me and love me know that um uh on a regular basis, I will go somewhere, usually when it's a little sunnier than it is right now.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:12.640
Yeah, that's pretty soggy, I don't know.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.119
We're we're we're kayaking in today.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:26.160
Um but I I will go somewhere, and this is just one of the odd things that I do, but I will go somewhere, I'll put my feet uh on the earth itself and just sit and cry and deal with emotions.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:33.839
And uh usually if it's uh somewhere out here in West Michigan where I can look at a large body of water, we got a couple around, you know, just to take care of ourselves.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.920
But then also if if all we do is if all we do is look at the dark, it's really easy to lose hope.
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:48.799
And so that's why I intentionally started, you know, one of the reasons I started doing the comedy was yes, there's some really dark and ugly things that we ignore that we need to look at.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.200
Yeah.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:56.160
At the same time, there are beautiful and amazing and ridiculously awesome, funny things that are also still happening.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.559
And I have to train myself to look at those too.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:31:59.039
Yeah.
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:04.640
Because, you know, whatever's true, whatever's lovely, whatever's beautiful, focus on those things is what God's word teaches us.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.960
Uh some of the true things are ugly, yeah, and some of the beautiful things are worth celebrating.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:26.400
I like that because um, like just last week I was sharing with a little bit, we had our first grandson born, yeah, and it was just the most beautiful, awe-inspiring, silencing thing I have ever done, you know, next to when we held held our children.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:31.039
But like to hold a newborn human in your hands is so beautiful.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:48.640
And then at the same time, the day before I was in the hospital visiting a young 18-year-old man who was in a horrific car accident that is hanging on by a thread, and it's like God never gives you all good or all bad in one day.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:56.799
You know, sometimes it may seem like that, but it's usually this um peculiarity that they're both there.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.279
Yeah.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.839
And yeah, that's a good word to to lean into that as well.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.759
The comedy I find helps me find that a little quicker.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:06.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:08.079
World's full of that stuff.
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:09.279
Yeah, I I hear you.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:10.240
I hear you.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.519
All right, Matt.
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:19.200
Um I will say this on our trip out to uh and and I had to apologize to this guy later, but the the spur of the moment got me.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:31.599
Um so we're traveling out to Sufa, South Dakota, and one of our comedians he he uh took a little extra time, took his wife with, and they're out traveling, and um, and they spent a couple days before, they took a couple days after, traveled on their own.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:38.079
They said, and one of the things he said when we were in our team meeting was uh Well, we want to stop at the Spam Museum in Austin, Minnesota.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:38.799
Yeah, part of the home mill.
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:40.160
That's the that is the thing.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.599
Spam, the meat product that comes in a can.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.799
Learn something new every day.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:50.319
Yes, and immediately the entire team's like, can we go to the spam museum too?
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.640
Yes, children, we can go to the spam museum.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.839
So we stop, and it was it was a good way to stretch our legs.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.960
We're walking around, and and you walk in, it's exactly what you think it is.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.160
It is an interactive children-like museum for spam.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.359
And um, you know, we're just kind of walking around, like, okay, this is fun, this is cool.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:11.840
And this this dude is walking around with spam on a like different kinds of spam on a platter you could try to stamp it up.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.719
Well, and he points it at me and he goes, Oh, I'm Jewish.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.559
I didn't even think, I just said I'm Jewish, and he because he's pointing pork at me.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.480
He's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, and he walks away.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.760
And he comes back 10 minutes later, and you know, I'm still Jewish, bro.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:28.320
And then he comes back, he's like, Oh, I'm sorry, uh, we have turkey.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:28.880
Okay.
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.719
I'm like, I'm just uh excuse me, don't you mean spurky?
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.000
This is the spam museum.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:34.960
Don't you tell spurky?
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.239
And he's just looking at me blank faced, like, I'm sorry, brother, I got I'm messing with you.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:38.880
I'm not Jewish.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.199
Thank you.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.360
I just don't know how you're something wrong with me.
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:41.760
It's not you.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.159
Yeah, this is a me thing, not a new thing.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.400
And uh, but yeah, just those moments where we can create something you know fun and amazing like that.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.519
That's that's a part of the reason I love doing what I do as well.
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:53.199
Yeah, that's great.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:54.320
That's great.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:55.519
All right, brother.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:03.679
Um, well, I want to have you back again as we begin to you know process some of the things that you're sharing with us today.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:15.360
Um even though we are joking around a little bit, we understand the magnitude and um the hurt and the pain that goes along with this subject.
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:37.119
And if you are listening to us today and you have been a victim, or if you are an abuser of um things physically or spiritually within a the context of a church or religious setting, um, I'm gonna ask you to reach out to us and we would love to have a conversation with you.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:41.519
You can do that through the link that's in the podcast description.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:49.519
Um and we would love to help you in your journey and to begin to find out what it will take to help you as well.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.239
Absolutely.
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:55.599
And and let me just throw this in there as well, again, because obviously this is a uh heavy and important topic.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.159
Um, there are resources out there.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:05.119
Uh, if anyone's in uh an immediate emotional crisis, you know, there's 988, which is the suicide and mental health hotline.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:10.400
Uh, there's also the rain national sexual assault hotline as well.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.920
I want to put that one out there as well.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.440
Uh if you it's rain with two ends, R-A-I-N-N.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.760
And you can call 1-800-656-HOPE.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:27.920
And there's an some online and some text options as well, you know, because it's important that we believe uh the victims and the people who have gone through it.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:36.559
And so if that's if you're listening to this and that's you, there are people who will hear you, believe you, and safely come alongside and help bring some some recovery into your life.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.079
Uh, so I just want to make sure it's always good that we end, you know, with some of the resources.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:43.280
So you can reach out to us with the contact information in the show notes.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:49.440
And there's also 988 and the rain R-A-I-N-N, you know, survivors hotline.
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:50.639
So thank you, Matt.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.000
Yeah, that's that's a great.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:53.760
Um all right.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.280
Well, thanks again, brother.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:56.559
Appreciate it when you're here.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.480
Um thank you for doing what God has asked you to do, whether it's fun or whether it's not.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:08.000
And um uh your testimony of faithfulness is inspiring to us as well.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:08.559
So thank you.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.599
Well, thank you for having me.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.320
I appreciate it.
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.280
All right, y'all.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:17.760
Um, once again, uh, if you have any questions on this subject and you'd like to reach out to us, just go ahead and do that.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.679
In the meantime, we hope that you join us for the next episode.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.639
Um, take good care and God bless.
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:12.400
Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast.
00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:13.279
This is Scott.
00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:15.199
I'm gonna be your host uh again today.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:18.719
Hey, we have a special guest with us today.
00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.199
Um, Matthew Sharp is back with us.
00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:23.120
We did a previous podcast together.
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:24.399
You want to say hi, Matt?
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:25.359
Hi, Matt.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:26.559
Couldn't resist.
00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:28.960
I kind of teed that one up for you.
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:29.679
You did.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:30.239
That's okay.
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:31.760
I'll always swing at that one.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:32.240
Good to see you.
00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:32.640
How you been?
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.000
Yeah, I'm doing great, man.
00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:34.640
How about you?
00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:41.119
Um, why don't you just take a second and remind everybody about uh who you are, what you're up to, what God's got going on in your life.
00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:42.799
Yeah, so a couple of hats.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.320
Uh, I've been busy with all of them.
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:48.000
I am an ordained pastor, which is always great fun.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:49.520
Get to preach in different places.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:58.320
My full-time job right now is I am a licensed professional counselor, psychotherapist in private practice in Muskegon, keeping busy with that.
00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:01.119
And then I'm also a performing stand-up comedian.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.520
And people ask, what does that have to do with anything else?
00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:07.040
Like, well, because both of those other jobs are really funny.
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:07.920
So I don't know.
00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:14.400
It's it's been great and been keeping busy with a lot of shows and a lot of uh kind of combined events at churches.
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:16.959
We're just out uh we're calling it the Tundra Tour.
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:31.519
We went to South uh Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and got to do about three different shows out there over spring break, which is uh if you're gonna go somewhere south for spring break, I recommend South Dakota because nothing says summer like like South Dakota.
00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:34.159
No, that sounds great, man.
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:39.040
Um sounds like God's got a lot of things that he's doing with you guys in your ministry right now.
00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:39.840
That's really cool.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:40.319
Yeah.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.079
Um, how about books?
00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:49.760
Uh now last time you're here, we talked a little bit about your book, which was called From My Throne to His.
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:50.400
Did I get it right?
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:51.200
Yes, you did.
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:52.400
From My Throne to His.
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.159
And that's I still love uh love that book, love putting it out there.
00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:13.280
And and for those who don't know, I literally Googled uh what are the most awkward, uncomfortable, confusing Bible passages out there, and I wrote a devotional on each one because because normally as Christians we tend to just don't that doesn't make sense, skip over and go to the happy parts that I like and can put on a coffee mug or something.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.280
And so I just said, no, let's look at all the verses that don't make any sense and just look at them.
00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:20.400
And some of them are hilarious and some of them are awkward, and yeah.
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.400
And so you got to put them there for a reason.
00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:26.400
They did, and so we we yeah, we made a devotional about that one.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:37.680
And um I'm currently finishing up the editing, my first draft of a book that right now will be tentatively titled The Jester: Building Resilience Through Humor.
00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:47.120
I do a lot of corporate speaking for different agencies, and I kind of combine the worlds of psychotherapy and comedy as a way of building resilience in people.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:54.319
And so this is a book that would go along with some of my uh keynotes and presentations and workshops that people can grab and take with them.
00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:55.360
So it's it'll be fun.
00:02:55.599 --> 00:03:05.120
Dude, I'm I definitely want to get that when it comes out because like I know of no other people that do everything that you do that you've been called to do with that combination.
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.479
You're like uh unicorn in in the ministry world.
00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.680
I like to say rhinoceros, a little heavier than a unicorn, but still kind of unique.
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:15.439
So no, totally cool, man.
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:17.039
I uh I just love it.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:32.560
Um so you've got a few things that are on your heart today, and um there are also some things that I have on my heart, and I know that um absolutely they're gonna be on the hearts of many of our listeners as well.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.680
So, where should we go in our conversation?
00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:38.960
What what do you see God doing um in your practice?
00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:43.199
What's going on um with some of the things that you're observing?
00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:55.759
Well, in in private practice right now, due to my credentialing both as a counselor and a pastor, I've sort of landed in the world of helping people recover from spiritual abuse.
00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:57.520
And and that's always a tricky one.
00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:57.759
Yeah.
00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:02.400
Trying to make make sense of that with people because uh and it happens everywhere.
00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:15.840
And so I have a lot of people right now on my caseload that are dealing with some form of spiritual abuse or spiritual trauma or some sort of wounding from a church or a church leader or a church system of some kind.
00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:28.000
And so trying to help them kind of heal their wounds and find what does faith look like after uh they've, you know, many of them grew up in, just like most of us did, we grew up in a church environment.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:39.120
We uh went to church, loved Jesus, sang the songs, you know, did the crafts and the motions at VBS, and then uh something happens and why we walk away for a variety of reasons.
00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:39.839
Yeah.
00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.480
I know that like that's an interesting term.
00:04:42.560 --> 00:05:10.720
I don't know if I've ever heard it called spiritual abuse, but it's uh it's apt, it's a good fit for a lot of the things that are going on behind the scenes, and I I think many people that take a look at the church from the outside, they're incredibly aware of some of the scandals that go on and some of the things that um sometimes get swept under the rug.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:30.319
And but I I think the other side of that is though there are a lot of us who as pastors are deeply concerned about how do we help people that have been through that because we see the broken coming into our churches um very skittish, if for lack of a better word.
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:30.720
Yes.
00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.000
And um as shepherds, we want to know how to love them and help them as well.
00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.360
Um so it sounds like that's what you're seeing too.
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:41.279
Yeah, and I see it from both sides.
00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:57.519
I've seen uh you know pastors who've come in who have been either let go from a church or had a conflict uh due to leadership styles, and and more I see the the people who would identify as uh victims or people in recovery or healing wounds uh inflicted by churches.
00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:02.240
So yeah, it's it's good that it's on our hearts and minds as pastors, and so that's important.
00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:14.160
So, like, do you see different categories of people that have been hurt in different ways, or what would be some examples of kind of the folks that you're you're trying to help?
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:19.519
Yeah, I think you know what I'm what I'm seeing, there's probably kind of two big categories.
00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:28.800
Uh the first one is probably I would say the easiest to recognize and and the hardest to work through just because of the scope.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:33.040
And that that's when there's actually a a crime or an actual abuse.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:41.759
Um we've had a lot of churches in the news for different um you know sexual assaults or crimes that have been taking place because of church leaders.
00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.920
Um so obviously that's an abuse issue, that's a mandatory reporting issue.
00:06:46.240 --> 00:07:09.360
And and it's tough because I've talked to so many people who have either been the victim of sexual abuse in church, uh either in the building or because of a church leader, or have known someone who was abused uh by a volunteer or a church leader, and it it's actually very painful to me how few churches follow through on their mandated reporting.
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:11.040
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one.
00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:25.680
Dude, that you you're hitting it there too, because I think on the one hand, people may think that you have um as a pastor, you have a a client privilege where you can keep all that stuff safe, but many don't realize that.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:37.920
No, like um, if I have somebody come into my office and counsel me about an abusive situation, or especially with a minor, I'm gonna get on the phone like that day and report it.
00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.800
And um that's what we are obligated morally, spiritually, ethically to do.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:43.600
And legally.
00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:44.240
And legally.
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:45.040
We forget that.
00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:57.920
The the state code in Michigan where we're sitting right now is written, and most states have it, where we have clergy privilege, uh, but that does not extend to uh child abuse that is happening right now.
00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:04.800
Whether it's you know, because of one of our people in a church situation or just in general, if we suspect child abuse, we are mandatory reporters.
00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.120
It's not a well, I think I will, no, I will.
00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:08.560
I have to do that.
00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:08.879
Yeah.
00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:18.959
And uh I'm sure I have no doubt that in the near future we'll see, as we saw with with other denominations, uh we'll see people who are suing their churches for not reporting adequately.
00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:34.320
And they'll they'll win, you know, because um we as church leaders, we don't like the fact that the people that we lead and shepherd could also be perpetrators, you know, and or that those of us who are shepherds are the perpetrators ourselves.
00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.960
And so it's that's a tough conversation, man.
00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:43.440
But the the absolute need is if there is even not even actual abuse, suspected abuse.
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.120
Yeah, we have to call.
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.120
Yeah, that's that's a great point, right?
00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:50.080
Yeah, it's not like we need to see the evidence first.
00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.799
If we just hear it or suspect it, we gotta re man that report to do so.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:09:01.919
One of the um one of the other things though is like it's not good for anybody.
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:14.799
Like, even if you're not in a church that has a sexual abuse allegation, like it it's all faith-based ministries to get a black eye when this stuff happens and when we see it go public as well.
00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:26.240
And so I think we just need to kind of lock arms together and and try to unravel what's really going on here and to help people as much as we can.
00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:38.559
Um when you see folks that come in that have been victims of um this first category that we're talking about, what's a good way to begin to help the healing process?
00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:39.600
To believe them.
00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:40.080
Yeah.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:48.240
I mean, just first and foremost, because the for anyone who has been you know sexually abused, that is a trauma.
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:59.279
That there's trauma therapy that is needed and care and restoration, and the what that trauma does to a person's self-concept, um, very few of us unless you've experienced it, can understand that.
00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:12.399
But when it's a spiritual component, I've heard there's there's well, we would say there's a lot of gaslighting as well, where where people will say, Well, the that perpetrator, he would never do something like that, or she would never do something like that.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.039
Um or there would be some discrediting of the person who is the victim.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.799
And so my my starting point is like I don't know if you're telling me the truth.
00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:22.080
I don't know what really happened.
00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:25.360
I wasn't there, but I will believe everything you tell me.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:30.399
And and then pretty quickly for me, I I obviously we're not on video right now, people can't see me.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.240
I'm I'm a physically large man.
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.960
And so I I very quickly, at least even as a therapist, bring in, hey, I'm I'm a big dude.
00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:41.919
And if you're not comfortable talking to a guy who's physically big, I'm a pastor, yeah.
00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.039
I want to be a safe place for you, a presence for you.
00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:47.679
Yeah, and if that's not okay, I totally understand.
00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.919
I've got some amazing female colleagues who do amazing work with trauma.
00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:57.039
I'm happy to introduce you and just be out of the out of the picture completely because I don't need to be here.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:58.320
I need you to get better.
00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:14.480
No, that that's an important thing that you're mentioning right there, too, because we have to be a safe place for people where um they can feel like they can be trusted, and that's the foundation of um the the way that we help and the way that we believe them.
00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:33.039
And many of us we have rules in place that like I won't counsel another female one-on-one with a closed door, like either we'll have another woman come in here, or if it's um a good situation, we'll just have women outside the office or whatever that looks like.
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:37.840
But we take um safeguards to be able to protect people as well.
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:38.480
Yep.
00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:59.039
So once we um begin to develop um a foundation of trust and security in the relationship, and we begin to counsel them, what are you seeing that like kind of helps people come to an understanding of of what to do from there?
00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:06.000
Well, one of the um besides the trauma work, which that's a of course, you know, you asked me at the beginning, do you want water?
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:07.440
And of course, now I'm like, uh I'm good.
00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.279
It sounds like I've been smoking for 30 years.
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.159
Don't mind me, folks, it's allergy season.
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:27.120
But um, no, after we get past that point of just saying, I'm gonna believe you, uh, there's another very important uh step, at least for me, is to recognize I don't need my client to leave therapy with my belief system.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:27.759
Okay.
00:12:28.320 --> 00:13:00.080
You know, because if if I have been hurt by a church, the what makes it so painful, what makes spiritual abuse different than just regular emotional abuse or uh a verbal abuse of some kind is that we feel like God, the the victims often feel like God is on the side of the abuser because we as the spiritual leaders will use words like God said you know, God God's word says you have to do what I say, and then then follow that by doing something horrific, whatever the case may be.
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:13.600
And so there's so a lot of the words that we use to speak hope and healing in people's lives, you know, redemption, salvation, uh, love, um God bless you, God loves you.
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:23.279
Those are also words that have been used in a power imbalance to coerce people's behaviors in unhealthy churches.
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:32.000
And as a result, the words that I would use as a pastor to bring healing have been used as a weapon against the victim.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:39.279
And so so I have to be able to say, like, you might not leave this office as a Christian, but that that's your choice.
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:44.399
And I I obviously I want everyone to believe in Jesus and spend eternity with him, of course.
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:49.279
At the same time, I'm gonna respect that you might not be there right now because of what's been done to you.
00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:49.679
Right.
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:54.960
And I've had clients who have walked away from faith, deconstructed completely.
00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:59.919
I've had people who've walked away from faith, deconstructed, and then reconstructed.
00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:07.759
And and just walking with them in a place where I'm not projecting my desire for them to have a relationship with Jesus.
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.639
I'm just loving and accepting them as they are, saying, Hey, you're you're not cool with Jesus right now.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:13.360
I get that.
00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:13.759
Yeah.
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:18.960
Somebody with his name, you know, on his someone with Jesus' name on their jersey hurt you.
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:19.279
Yeah.
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.960
I'm not gonna tell you you gotta like him because of what this other person did.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.200
That that's really smart, you know.
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:30.639
And I think a lot of times as pastors, we use what I call insider language.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:32.159
You think we do?
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:32.720
Yeah, right.
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:34.320
Like we're gonna take a love offering now.
00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:35.360
This would be great.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:43.440
So this this churchy stuff, this churchy language, and um we just kind of expect everybody to know that.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.159
And it's it's so arrogant of us to be able to do that.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:46.480
Yeah.
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.360
Yes, it is.
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.120
And and and just it's not even arrogant.
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:50.799
We're just we're so used to our little bubbles.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.679
Like when I grew up, our church had a narthex.
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:54.240
Yeah, right.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.159
Have you ever tried to explain what a narthex is?
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.399
Isn't that like part of an insect's body or something?
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:00.399
I heard it was a hemorrhoid cream once.
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:01.120
That's so good.
00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:02.879
Yeah, it's he rash try narthex.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:03.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.799
And so we just use these words because we're familiar with them in our everyday life.
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.840
Yeah, you know, and so but what does that mean to anybody?
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.840
Now, for sure, for an outsider, trying to explain church lingo is challenging.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:20.399
Yeah, but now imagine that you've been um this would be an odd example, but like you got beat up in the narthex.
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:20.720
Right.
00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:22.320
You know, just to physically assault the pow.
00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:22.720
Right.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:30.799
Okay, now whatever that word meant to you before, now it's gonna have this added element of danger every time I'm talking about the coffee and yeah, dude.
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.679
And so that goes for all of our churchy language when there's been spiritual abuse.
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:36.879
God loves you.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.080
Yeah, he loves me so much, he let the so-and-so do this to me.
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:48.879
Okay, I got I I have to basically it puts me in the position as a therapist, it puts me in the position of saying, I'm here to serve you.
00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:54.720
Yeah, I'm not here to project my agenda, I'm not here to, you know, yeah, throw my beliefs at you.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:56.399
I'm just here to live to serve you.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.639
I don't even say love you because that that can be triggering.
00:15:58.799 --> 00:15:59.759
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.399
Because that because for so many people that has strings attached.
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:07.279
Yeah, yeah, you know, and so I'm just here to serve you and help you on whatever journey you need to take.
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:21.360
Seems like a monster task sometimes to because people I think used a good word project, um they take what happened by their abuser and they project that onto Jesus also.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:21.919
Yes.
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:31.600
When we know, as pastors, the profound love and grace and desire for Jesus for us to have healthy flourishing lives.
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:48.399
And that association that's made with um a human-gone rogue to Jesus is something that hopefully we are able to to mend and you know, give ideas on what the healthy relationship that Jesus wants.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.960
But getting there is a journey.
00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:51.679
Sure.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:52.240
Yeah.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:52.960
Yeah.
00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.799
It it is it is definitely a challenge.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:59.519
I and I will say the the journeys that I have been privileged to be a part of.
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:05.200
Um you know, they've been good, they've been painful, they've been redemptive, they've been broken.
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:11.359
I've seen marriages fall apart because of it, because one spouse doesn't want to leave a church and the other spouse has been wounded.
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:23.200
I've seen kids who have been messed up by parents, and and yet I've also seen some of those same kids bring their parents to therapy because then the parent is starting to realize, wow, this was a messed up situation I put my kid in.
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:23.680
Yeah.
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:30.160
And so there's also tremendous, you know, again, I'm gonna use that churchy word redemption.
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:34.960
Yeah, but there's just that incredible amount of we'll just say recovery, I'll use the more clinical word.
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:43.039
When when people are allowed to, I mean they're validated in their pain, yeah, they're allowed to uh be broken.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:45.680
Yeah, we don't realize it because we want people to be better.
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.799
And so if somebody comes up and says, Oh, yeah, I'm really questioning if Jesus is real.
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:49.920
Oh no, you gotta believe he's real.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.160
Here's the case for Christ, here's this book, here's this course, here's this information, here's the Bible, whap, there you go.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.440
Okay, and they're never gonna ask a question to us again.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:04.559
Yeah, but allowing people in any way to to to struggle, to question, to ask, why do we believe this in general?
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.000
That's just a good disposition.
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:15.200
Now, when somebody's been wounded by the church, letting them breathe and letting them just okay, I don't know if I can trust that God is really good.
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:15.920
Okay.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.119
Now, every every part of my theological brain is like, yes, he is.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:19.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.599
I don't I don't need to convince you of that.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:23.839
Yeah, God is good whether I convince you or not.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:29.519
So I'm just gonna I'm just gonna sit here and let them kind of breathe in that space and say, Is God good?
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.559
Well, I think he is, but that's not important.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:33.519
What do you think?
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:46.720
Yeah, I like to tell people like there's a lot of times we have what I call just a ministry of presence, yes, of just being there with people, just crying with them if they're crying, just um listening, right?
00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:55.839
Um, I've no but um and I think that's a a great ministry that we're all called to have.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:07.279
Yes, you know, it's it's not just clergy or people that get paid for you know um their vocation, but it's it's like all of us can be the ministry of presence with people as well.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.359
Um have you ever let me just shift it a little bit.
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:19.039
Like, do you ever have a chance to work with people who are actually the perpetrators of spiritual abuse?
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:20.000
Yes, yeah.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.599
And what's that look like?
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:22.319
Yeah.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:33.839
Anytime, and I I have a couple people who have who are on my caseload right now and have been on my caseload who are perpetrators of different kinds of abuse, you know, spiritual, uh, sexual, physical, others.
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.319
Uh many of them, you know, we know they're perpetrators when they come in, and the reason they're there is for court ordered treatment.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.960
Okay, so okay, something happened.
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.240
Um it it's an interesting journey, you know.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:53.599
In in some senses, I would say it's almost easier to work with from my emotional perspective, it's easier to work with the offenders.
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:54.000
Yeah.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:56.720
Because I don't have to worry about their emotions.
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:57.119
Yeah.
00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:58.079
They're they don't have any.
00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.519
That's a broad generalization.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:00.000
Sorry, I shouldn't say.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:00.640
No, I get you.
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:07.599
But but for someone who who's committed um abuse against another person, there's a weird almost matter-of-factness.
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.200
Oh, yeah, you know, this happened and this happened, and you know, but it did.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:19.680
It's it's almost this bland conversation that to me creates a lot of weird internal chaos of like you just told me you did what and you're just telling me like you ordered breakfast.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.240
Yeah.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:20.799
Okay.
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:21.359
Yeah.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.200
Um, let's let's dig into that.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.119
Why, why, why is that okay?
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:35.039
Um but but to hear their uh the the recounting of their uh their stories of what happened is very factual.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:41.599
Uh it's not until we get into their trauma that it gets heavy.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:42.240
Okay.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:47.839
You know, because it's almost like, you know, when I when I talk with the abusers, it's almost like I'm reading the police report.
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:54.640
Like, here are the facts, these are the facts, I can read the facts, the facts are unpleasant, but uh there's no emotional connection to it, it's just yeah, that shouldn't happen.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:21:07.839
Do they have like you know, I I'm making huge generalizations, but is there a like a lack of repentance, or is it just like, all right, now I have to face this thing that I got busted for, or a little bit of everything.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.559
Well, we're using that churchy word again, repentance.
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:10.960
Yeah.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:20.000
Um, you know, then there's that question of, you know, do I have remorse, regret, repentance um because I got caught or because I want change?
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:20.640
Right, right.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.599
Well, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive things.
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:23.920
Okay.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.119
You know, uh pretty much everyone I've talked to who's ever been caught.
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.519
Anytime I've been caught, you know, for speeding, doesn't matter what, uh I regret getting caught.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:31.920
Yeah.
00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:33.759
Um no nobody likes that.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:51.599
But but you know, the the journey that I get to take with people sometimes is we move past the yeah, I'm here because I'm supposed to be here, I have to be here, the court made me be here, and we get to move into a place of wow, I did the same thing.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:59.759
Um one person, uh, we were doing an exercise, and um it's an active imagination exercise, and it was interesting.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.680
Because we were talking about um let's imagine for a minute uh that the the part of you that committed this crime is sitting in that chair over there and let's let's interview this part of you.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.200
Just an imaginative thing.
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:21.839
And I was asking a couple of questions, and it was just this light bulb moment that I was like, uh, how old does this this uh abusive you know part of you uh think you are?
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:29.279
And the gave he said the correct answer that he was, and then kind of I just said, How old does that part think it is?
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:30.640
He goes, 12.
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:31.519
Why do I know that?
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:32.960
I was I don't know.
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:34.960
Let's figure that out.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:35.599
Yeah.
00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.880
Well, guess what happened when that person was 12?
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:39.200
Yeah.
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:40.640
They were the victim of abuse.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah.
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:49.519
And so um then it all of a sudden the the connections when that with those moments don't happen often, but when they do, those connections are powerful.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:55.200
And and that's when we can actually see a recognition and a change start to take place.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:02.880
And and honestly, one of the most profound evidences to me that someone is quote better is when they say, Yeah, I can never be around kids ever again.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.200
Or I can never be in that environment ever again.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:05.599
Yeah.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:07.279
Even if I'm better, I'm never going to be.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.599
Yeah.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.000
Okay.
00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:09.599
Now we're starting to head in the right direction.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.000
You know, it's that old axiom, like hurt people, hurt people.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:14.559
Yes.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:25.119
And um I've had this a couple of times though, where it's hard for me, if I'm all honest here, to be really sympathetic with an abuser.
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:25.359
Yeah.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:36.880
Like I've had guys in here that have um just um wrecked their their ministry, their marriages, and everything because they're having affairs um while they're pastors.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:50.240
I'm like, dude, what do you what goes through your mind when you just stand in a pulpit and you know, and I look at myself too, you know, I'm not perfect, but shoot, I would never get to that level, I hope, in my heart.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:59.440
And but so do you find that to be a barrier, like when you try to help people, or you just kind of you know put that aside?
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:01.359
Partially, you know, yeah, we put it aside.
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:07.440
But the other the other piece at a very real level, you know, when we say we're not perfect, we're often doing lip service to that.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:07.920
Yeah.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:16.319
Romans 2 will teach us that if I judge someone for their sin, I'm at fault because I'm guilty of the same sin.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.200
Well, I was like, okay, I've never abused a kid.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.599
How can I how can I be guilty of that same sin?
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:28.400
I've never when I teach that part, I'll say, like, you know, I'll ask a like a class or a group, like, is using meth is that a sin?
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:30.400
Well, everyone will say yes, we shouldn't use meth.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:32.880
Like a good, I think Jesus can get on board with that one, yeah.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:34.960
I say, how many of you have ever used meth?
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.680
And I usually only ask that when I can predict the answer is no.
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.559
I say, okay, so if I look at it, I I've never used meth.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.400
So if I look at a meth user and say, That's a sin, you're a horrible human being.
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.039
I'm judging them, but the Bible says I'm guilty of that same sin.
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:49.839
But how could that be?
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.039
I've never taken meth.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.759
Well, that's because sin is not the behavior.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.519
The behavior is the evidence of the sin.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.920
We get hung up on the behavior uh the using the meth or whatever.
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:11.359
Have I ever sought physical pleasure to feel good about myself, whether it's food, whether it's you know, whatever.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:12.480
Yes.
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:12.880
Okay.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:15.359
Okay, I'm guilty of the same thing as a meth user.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:15.920
Gotcha.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:21.119
Have I ever used my position, power, and authority to get what I want from somebody?
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:22.160
Yes.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.720
That's the same underlying sin that an abuser uses.
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:31.279
Now the degree to which I do it is not harmful, but it is the same sin.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.720
You and I are both guilty of that.
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:33.920
That's a good word.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:34.880
Yeah, definitely.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.400
And and and we don't like that.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:36.880
Yeah.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.839
Because I want the abuser to be in a different category.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:40.240
Right.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:42.160
Because then I can say it's them.
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.519
There is no different category, it's us.
00:25:46.319 --> 00:26:11.759
So with that in mind then, and granted, like a lot of this stuff is confidential that we know that other people don't, but how should we respond to both victims and abusers as a church when we have a little bit of an awareness that's going on because we don't want to stigmatize or how does that look?
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.400
You know, that looks like boatloads of wisdom needed.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:26.480
You know, in one sense, if we have a compassionate heart, if we have an empathetic church, taking care of the victims will be the easier task.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:35.279
Not not easy, but easier because we show love, we show compassion, we maintain boundaries, we have good policies, we respect their journeys.
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.400
Um that's painful work but good work.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.200
I think the harder work, and I don't have an answer for it, the harder work is how do we minister to the abusers?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:51.359
Because if somebody if somebody walks into the church and says, Hey, I'm a registered sex offender, yeah, okay, I want that person to know Jesus, I don't want them sitting next to my kid necessarily.
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:51.759
Yeah.
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.039
Well, legally with our kid systems now.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:57.359
Sure.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.240
We have legal boundaries that you know, but still.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:08.000
And at the same token, it's just because somebody's on the registry doesn't mean that they're unsafe right now.
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:08.480
Yeah.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.599
You know, how about the person who's not on the registry who's still the abuser?
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.240
How do I find them?
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:19.200
You know, these are tough questions, and the church we tend to spiritually whitewash them, the issues, and move on.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:24.319
And I love bringing up these conversations because there are no good answers, and we have to keep the questions going.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:24.880
Okay.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:36.400
Where can um we go for resources about that was my phone, which was not on mute.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.400
So um, I'm gonna be checking my phone now to make sure that my phone's mute.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.319
I don't know if I'll edit that or not.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:42.640
Hey.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:43.680
Yeah, it's fine.
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.079
Um we we needed some levity.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:47.279
We're having very happy conversations.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:48.240
This is tight.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:28:00.240
Where can we go for research uh resources that for let's say we know a situation that's going on, um, people are coming to us and asking us to help.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:07.039
Do you have any ideas or suggestions where we can go and what would be a good next step for us to to help people?
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.119
Well, there's a couple of good next steps.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.359
Um, you know, again, we you've asked a very broad question, a situation that's happening.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:14.960
There's lots of situations.
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.480
Um let me let me make some some generalized statements.
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:28.880
Um one, I think every one of us as pastors, if you are serving a church, you you included, good sir, we need a therapist.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:30.960
Yeah, you just have to.
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:40.000
Yeah, you know, um, because we we were talking before we went on air about narcissism in pastors, and yeah, and I read the book When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:47.920
I read it expecting to find out about all these other pastors that I know are who are narcissists, and I discovered they are, uh, but so am I.
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:48.400
Yeah.
00:28:48.559 --> 00:29:01.119
I mean, anytime we stand in front of the same group of people every week, they give us a special title and a cool parking place, they refer to us as reverend or pastor, it's not a matter of if we're narcissistic, it's how bad and are we aware of it.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:10.400
And so, unless we have somebody that can give us that honest feedback to say, uh, that was a little bit narcissistic, brother, um, we we can miss it.
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.359
So we we need to be doing our own work as pastors.
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.079
And so I encourage every pastor to have a therapist.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:22.240
Don't necessarily call me because I'm only licensed in one state, and my practice is pretty full, but there's a lot of good therapists out there.
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:22.640
Yeah.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:33.359
And uh the other piece too, um, you know, my organization, Stand Up Therapy Live, we do uh obviously we do the comedy piece, but the other side of it is we do training and consulting for churches.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:49.680
We help with uh suicide prevention and awareness, we help with leader training on mandatory reporting, and we help people just kind of be those safe people, those safe churches, and help leaders kind of learn how to address those whatever the whatever the bomb is that might go off.
00:29:49.759 --> 00:30:02.240
Yeah, you know, whether it's uh it's an affair, whether it's a porn usage, whether it's an addiction issue, whatever the problem is, um, you know, we kind of help churches develop you know some systems and plans to help with that.
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:06.480
Now, uh you're gonna ask me at some point what's your website and it's standardherapy.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.160
And if you go to that, you're gonna see all about my corporate speaking, you're gonna see all about the comedy, you won't see this stuff on there.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:12.480
Okay.
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:19.119
But but they can still if you can still reach out to me at that website and just say, you know, we're developing a new website that will have the consulting piece on it.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:25.200
But because I gotta think that's um it's not as uncommon as we would hope it would be.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.279
No, it's not people need to know where to go.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:31.200
What's uncommon is church is dealing with it proactively instead of reactively.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:32.079
Gotcha.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:38.720
So well, it sounds like God has called you to do a good work rate at the time we need it the most.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:39.680
I hope so.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:41.359
And um, yeah.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:42.559
All right.
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:47.279
Um, well, anything else on our our hearts today, Matt?
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.400
Well, it's it's raining.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:50.240
Yeah, we got we got deep.
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.400
Hey, it's a comedian, we're gonna talk about something funny.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.039
Like, yeah.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:31:00.000
Um well, and to be honest, I've been asked the I've been asked the question, you know, when when we deal with this heavy stuff, what's how does comedy fit into this?
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:00.559
Yeah.
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:11.279
Well, what I what I've seen, and you know, the people who know me and love me know that um uh on a regular basis, I will go somewhere, usually when it's a little sunnier than it is right now.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:12.640
Yeah, that's pretty soggy, I don't know.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.119
We're we're we're kayaking in today.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:26.160
Um but I I will go somewhere, and this is just one of the odd things that I do, but I will go somewhere, I'll put my feet uh on the earth itself and just sit and cry and deal with emotions.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:33.839
And uh usually if it's uh somewhere out here in West Michigan where I can look at a large body of water, we got a couple around, you know, just to take care of ourselves.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:39.920
But then also if if all we do is if all we do is look at the dark, it's really easy to lose hope.
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:48.799
And so that's why I intentionally started, you know, one of the reasons I started doing the comedy was yes, there's some really dark and ugly things that we ignore that we need to look at.
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.200
Yeah.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:56.160
At the same time, there are beautiful and amazing and ridiculously awesome, funny things that are also still happening.
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.559
And I have to train myself to look at those too.
00:31:58.720 --> 00:31:59.039
Yeah.
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:04.640
Because, you know, whatever's true, whatever's lovely, whatever's beautiful, focus on those things is what God's word teaches us.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.960
Uh some of the true things are ugly, yeah, and some of the beautiful things are worth celebrating.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:26.400
I like that because um, like just last week I was sharing with a little bit, we had our first grandson born, yeah, and it was just the most beautiful, awe-inspiring, silencing thing I have ever done, you know, next to when we held held our children.
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:31.039
But like to hold a newborn human in your hands is so beautiful.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:48.640
And then at the same time, the day before I was in the hospital visiting a young 18-year-old man who was in a horrific car accident that is hanging on by a thread, and it's like God never gives you all good or all bad in one day.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:56.799
You know, sometimes it may seem like that, but it's usually this um peculiarity that they're both there.
00:32:56.960 --> 00:32:57.279
Yeah.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.839
And yeah, that's a good word to to lean into that as well.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.759
The comedy I find helps me find that a little quicker.
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:06.720
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:08.079
World's full of that stuff.
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:09.279
Yeah, I I hear you.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:10.240
I hear you.
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.519
All right, Matt.
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:19.200
Um I will say this on our trip out to uh and and I had to apologize to this guy later, but the the spur of the moment got me.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:31.599
Um so we're traveling out to Sufa, South Dakota, and one of our comedians he he uh took a little extra time, took his wife with, and they're out traveling, and um, and they spent a couple days before, they took a couple days after, traveled on their own.
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:38.079
They said, and one of the things he said when we were in our team meeting was uh Well, we want to stop at the Spam Museum in Austin, Minnesota.
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:38.799
Yeah, part of the home mill.
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:40.160
That's the that is the thing.
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.599
Spam, the meat product that comes in a can.
00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:44.799
Learn something new every day.
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:50.319
Yes, and immediately the entire team's like, can we go to the spam museum too?
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.640
Yes, children, we can go to the spam museum.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.839
So we stop, and it was it was a good way to stretch our legs.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.960
We're walking around, and and you walk in, it's exactly what you think it is.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.160
It is an interactive children-like museum for spam.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.359
And um, you know, we're just kind of walking around, like, okay, this is fun, this is cool.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:11.840
And this this dude is walking around with spam on a like different kinds of spam on a platter you could try to stamp it up.
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.719
Well, and he points it at me and he goes, Oh, I'm Jewish.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.559
I didn't even think, I just said I'm Jewish, and he because he's pointing pork at me.
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.480
He's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, and he walks away.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.760
And he comes back 10 minutes later, and you know, I'm still Jewish, bro.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:28.320
And then he comes back, he's like, Oh, I'm sorry, uh, we have turkey.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:28.880
Okay.
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.719
I'm like, I'm just uh excuse me, don't you mean spurky?
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.000
This is the spam museum.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:34.960
Don't you tell spurky?
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.239
And he's just looking at me blank faced, like, I'm sorry, brother, I got I'm messing with you.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:38.880
I'm not Jewish.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.199
Thank you.
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.360
I just don't know how you're something wrong with me.
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:41.760
It's not you.
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.159
Yeah, this is a me thing, not a new thing.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.400
And uh, but yeah, just those moments where we can create something you know fun and amazing like that.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.519
That's that's a part of the reason I love doing what I do as well.
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:53.199
Yeah, that's great.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:54.320
That's great.
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:55.519
All right, brother.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:35:03.679
Um, well, I want to have you back again as we begin to you know process some of the things that you're sharing with us today.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:15.360
Um even though we are joking around a little bit, we understand the magnitude and um the hurt and the pain that goes along with this subject.
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:37.119
And if you are listening to us today and you have been a victim, or if you are an abuser of um things physically or spiritually within a the context of a church or religious setting, um, I'm gonna ask you to reach out to us and we would love to have a conversation with you.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:41.519
You can do that through the link that's in the podcast description.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:49.519
Um and we would love to help you in your journey and to begin to find out what it will take to help you as well.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.239
Absolutely.
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:55.599
And and let me just throw this in there as well, again, because obviously this is a uh heavy and important topic.
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.159
Um, there are resources out there.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:05.119
Uh, if anyone's in uh an immediate emotional crisis, you know, there's 988, which is the suicide and mental health hotline.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:10.400
Uh, there's also the rain national sexual assault hotline as well.
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:11.920
I want to put that one out there as well.
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.440
Uh if you it's rain with two ends, R-A-I-N-N.
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.760
And you can call 1-800-656-HOPE.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:27.920
And there's an some online and some text options as well, you know, because it's important that we believe uh the victims and the people who have gone through it.
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:36.559
And so if that's if you're listening to this and that's you, there are people who will hear you, believe you, and safely come alongside and help bring some some recovery into your life.
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.079
Uh, so I just want to make sure it's always good that we end, you know, with some of the resources.
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:43.280
So you can reach out to us with the contact information in the show notes.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:49.440
And there's also 988 and the rain R-A-I-N-N, you know, survivors hotline.
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:50.639
So thank you, Matt.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.000
Yeah, that's that's a great.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:53.760
Um all right.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.280
Well, thanks again, brother.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:56.559
Appreciate it when you're here.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.480
Um thank you for doing what God has asked you to do, whether it's fun or whether it's not.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:08.000
And um uh your testimony of faithfulness is inspiring to us as well.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:08.559
So thank you.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.599
Well, thank you for having me.
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:10.320
I appreciate it.
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:11.280
All right, y'all.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:17.760
Um, once again, uh, if you have any questions on this subject and you'd like to reach out to us, just go ahead and do that.
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.679
In the meantime, we hope that you join us for the next episode.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.639
Um, take good care and God bless.
