Postmodern Realities Podcast Episode 520: Astral Projection: Biblical Discernment and Out-of-Body Experiences

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Hi, everyone.
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Thank you for tuning in to the Postmodern Realities Podcast,
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brought to you by the Christian Research Institute and the
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Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cogdill, Managing Editor of the
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Christian Research Journal.
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It's October 2026, and you are listening to episode 520,
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which is a conversation about astral projection. On this episode,
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I'm joined by Lindsay Meddenwalt, who is an assistant professor
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of business and economics at Northwestern College, and she is
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the author of Bridge-Building Apologetics and a co-author with Doug
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Rotice of the recently released What If Jesus Is Right?
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Lindsay holds a master's in apologetics and ethics from Denver Seminary,
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a JD from St. Mary's University School of Law, and
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a master's in public administration from Midwestern State University. Lindsay
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has written an exclusive online feature article for our Fringe
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Files column for the Christian Research Journal. Her article is
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called Astral Projection, Biblical Discernment, and Out-of-Body Experiences. You can
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read this article for free at equip.org. That's E-Q-U-I-P dot O-R-G.
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Lindsay, it's good to.
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Have you back on the podcast. Nice to be here.
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Thanks for chatting with me today.
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Well, we're continuing our coverage in the month of October
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as we try to do every October. It's annual, talking
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about things that fall more into the occult, the new age,
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or the kind of spooky or creepy because it seems
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that non-Christians are kind of focusing on those topics around
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this time of year, especially if you're in any kind
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of neighborhood. It's like my neighbors are getting out their
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giant six foot tall as their house or taller skeletons
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and things like that. So people have more of an
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interest in these kinds of topics this time of year.
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And so when we talk about some of these things,
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we're hoping to equip you with some springboards to talk
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about Christianity and So today we are talking about something
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called astral projection. So what is astral projection? Is it
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something that people would recognize.
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Maybe they've seen in TV or movies?
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And is it popular, first of all? And then as
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I do with a lot of our cultural apologetics or
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some of these kinds of topics, I will always ask
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our authors, why should Christians care about this topic?
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Yeah, this is an interesting one, Melanie. I had heard
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of astral projection. I am a fan of the Marvel
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universe and Dr. Strange features some astral projection stuff, but
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I really wanted to start with not so much the
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way that astral projection is perceived in film or in media,
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but actually how it's been perceived in history. So astral
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projection is a kind of out of body experience. So
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starting with a historical perspective, It's been around or considered
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to be around for thousands of years, depending on who
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you talk with. If we're talking about the modern Western
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idea of astral projection, maybe it's a little bit newer.
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And really, we start with the Theosophical Society. The Theosophical
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Society was, for anybody who might not have heard of
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it before, it was a society that was founded in
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New York City back in the late 1870s. And it
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was founded by people who were interested in things like
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Eastern worldviews, Western occultism, spiritualism, psychic abilities. They really believed
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that there were potentially hidden dimensions that humans hadn't tapped into.
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And astral projection actually became kind of a pet project
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of the Theosophical Society back in the 1800s. So when
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they were talking about it, that sort of influenced the
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way that Western esoteric and New Age spirituality developed. So
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in the 20th century then, we've got people thinking about
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astral projection, maybe not exactly the same way that they
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thought about it in the 1800s, but thinking about it
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in a way that they see it maybe in TV.
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I don't know that that's actually realistic. So we're going
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to talk about that today. Is an experience of somebody
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in real life, is that really what it looks like
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when we see it in a television program? But in
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the 20th century, there was a book that was published
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by a radio executive turned researcher named Robert Monroe. And
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this was in 1971. He published a book called Journeys
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Out of the Body. And in it, he actually talked
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about his experiences leaving his body and encouraged people to
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not only think about it, but try to find ways
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to practice leaving their body. This is what astral projection is.
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And as I've mentioned, you see it in movies like
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Doctor Strange. But I also noticed that it was in
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a new series on Netflix called Behind Her Eyes. Now,
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I want to be very clear. I actually stopped watching
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this series. when I started it, I only got through
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two and a half episodes because it was so graphic.
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There was a lot of nudity and other sexual content,
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but I really wanted to see like, how is astral
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projection portrayed? It wasn't that helpful to me in my research,
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I guess. So I would say you could avoid that
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one mark and avoid it. I found it pretty disturbing actually,
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but that was another more recent series that people maybe
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would have gotten a exposed to astral projection in. And
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of course, Melanie, we always talk about social media and
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these topics, right? Like where are people hearing about this?
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Where are young people hearing about it? They're finding it
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in reels. They're finding it on TikTok. They're finding it
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on YouTube channels. They're finding it on all sorts of
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places that maybe gives them accurate information and maybe just
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opens them up to all sorts of information that is
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actually untrue. So I think Christians should be interested in
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this topic and in that the rest of the world
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is interested in this topic. And we should be able
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to talk about it in an intelligent and rational way
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and have a conversation about it, especially if we have
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friends and family members who might be bringing it up.
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So you mentioned that what astral projection actually is, is
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an out-of-body experience. So why don't you tell our listeners
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a little bit more about that? What is an out
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of body experience. And then if people have an out
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of body experience, what kinds of things do they experience?
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I have never personally experienced an out of body experience.
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So I'm not speaking from experience, but from what I
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can tell, roughly 10% of the population actually claims to
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have experienced an OBE or an out of body experience.
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What it is is when a person feels like their
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awareness is actually no longer in their physical body. So
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it might be the idea of you're floating above your
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body and watching whatever's happening below. That would be considered
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maybe an out-of-body experience. In my research, I found that
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there are two types of out-of-body experiences. There are the
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kind that are spontaneous, and then there are the kind
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that are induced. The induced ones usually come about with
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some sort of deep meditation or even using drugs or
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psychoactive substances like caffeine or alcohol to induce these experiences.
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An induced experience would be like self-hypnosis or astral projection.
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There's also spontaneous out-of-body experiences. These are the ones that
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we don't have any control over. These are like near-death experiences.
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So when somebody is, like I said, experiencing an out
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of body experience, they really might feel like they're floating
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and witnessing everything that happens in the room around them
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from sort of above. And they might also experience traveling
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to a different location. People who've claimed to experience these
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say that they feel very real, like it's in their
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physical nature that they're experiencing it. It's hard to prove
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that's the problem. They experience it, they say it's real,
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but then when researchers want to understand what it is
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they're talking about, it's hard to because we can't tell
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what's happening in a person's mind. The thing that we're
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most concerned about talking about today with regard to astral
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projection is this idea of where are you traveling to
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Why are you traveling to a different location? Like, what's
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your goal? And is this something that Christians should be
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concerned about or interested in?
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and subscribe to those newsletters. Well, now back to my
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conversation about astral projection, the astral plane and spirits with
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Lindsay Mendenhall. Well, just a moment ago, you were kind
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of explaining to our listeners what an out-of-body experience is.
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So how common are they? How common are these experiences
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that people say they have?
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And how do you experience them?
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What would cause an out-of-body experience?
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Yeah. So the spontaneous ones can just happen as they happen,
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such as near-death experiences. The induced ones really... It is
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about control. The person does try to control their own destiny,
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if you will. Like I said, I don't think that
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they're that common, roughly 10% of the population, but they're
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common enough that we should be talking about it, especially
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in the month of October when everybody's talking about everything,
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dealing with the paranormal and supernatural world. The thing, Melanie,
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that we need to be concerned about when we're talking
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about out-of-body experiences is is recognizing that your belief may
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not actually be aligned with reality. We talk about truth
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a lot. We talk about reality being true. When we're
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thinking about out-of-body experiences, we have to consider whether that
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experience is actually happening or maybe we're simply dreaming. And
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that is something that we really do need to consider
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when we're having a conversation with someone who claims that
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they've experienced such an event.
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And I want to tell our listeners that Lindsay has
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kind of gone really in-depth into some of those types
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of experiences in lucid dreams. So you would want to
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look up her article on equip.org about lucid dreams. So
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in terms of out-of-body experience, where does astral projection come
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into this as a type of out-of-body experience?
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Astral projection is an induced version of an out-of-body experience.
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It is this idea that your consciousness or your soul
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or some part of your quote-unquote astral body is actually
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leaving your physical body and going somewhere else. It's really
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about visiting this place called the astral plane. That seems
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to be a pretty consistent term. location that people want
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to visit when they are practicing astral projection. You might
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actually remember Teal Swan, Melanie. So years ago, when I
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first started doing these articles for the Christian Research Journal,
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the first task was about a woman named Teal Swan.
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And she is still quite a prominent New Age influencer.
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She actually has 2 million subscribers on YouTube now, which
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is significant growth since the last time we talked about her.
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She has talked extensively about astral projection, and she claims
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that astral projection helps people escape from the prison of
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their earthly experience. So you're leaving your body to experience
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something else. It allows people the opportunity to maybe reach
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a higher dimension and achieve their higher self one of
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the things we talk about quite frequently with regard to
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the new age, Melanie, is this idea of raising your vibrations.
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So the idea is that we are all made up
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of vibrations and the higher the vibrations we have, the
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more connected we are to our higher self. What is
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this higher self? Well, in connection with my research for
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this topic, I read a book called Astral Dynamics by
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a gentleman named Robert Bruce. And he talks about the
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higher self and he describes it as this sort of
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being that loves you more than anybody else could love you.
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And once you achieve your higher self, it's like you've
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reached God status and astral projection helps us reach that
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God status. And that's very, anybody who's kind of keen
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on the new age movement will definitely recognize that kind
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of phrasing that we hear. It's very consistent with the
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new age movement. this idea that we need to achieve
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our higher selves, that we can be gods. It's a
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very new age thing. And astral projection, when used as
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new agers are using it, is definitely something that we
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should probably not participate in. And we'll go into detail
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probably later, more specifically about the warnings that I might
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have for people who are interested in this.
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Well, you mentioned that one of the places that most
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people who are having this induced out-of-body experience are wanting
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to visit is the astral plane. So what is the
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astral plane? And then if people have visited the astral plane,
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what do they say has happened to them?
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I've tried to put myself in this situation because I
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haven't experienced astral projection, but I have wanted to experience
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some level of escapism at various times in my life.
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So for me, I've just gone to a movie theater
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by myself and I watch a movie and then I
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go home. And for me, the movie kind of gives
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me that opportunity to escape for a couple of hours.
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And I know that my body is still in my
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body and I'm not actually going into the film and
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experiencing that with the characters in the movie on the screen, right?
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With astral projection, it is kind of an opportunity to
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escape like Teal Swan said, right? We're escaping this prison
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cell of our physical bodies. But the astral plane isn't
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something that's been mapped. It's actually a pretty interesting concept
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that descriptions vary depending on the person who's experiencing it.
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But it's a non-physical intermediate dimension of existence is probably
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the best way to phrase it, where your consciousness is
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independent of your material body. So your emotions and your
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thoughts are are independent of your actual physical body. And
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the astral plane, and this is pretty consistent as well,
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is said to be inhabited by spirits and souls of
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the deceased and other immaterial beings. And I know that
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people are sensing some red flags here, and good, you
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should be. That's a reason why I think Christians really
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need to be cautious. Because if we're talking about something
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that supposedly exists beyond the physical world, we have to
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ask ourselves, what exactly are we experiencing? Who are we
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actually experiencing it with? Who are these spirits? And are
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these beings giving us reliable information? Are they trustworthy? Do
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we even want to be in the same space that
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they're in?
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Also, in your article, you talk about near-death experiences as
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a kind of out-of-body experience. So that's a regular question
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we get on the Bible Answer Man. Did somebody have
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a near-death experience where they visited heaven or something like that?
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So is participating in astral projection trying to do that,
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is that like an NDE? Is it a near-death experience?
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They're related in that they are both considered out-of-body experiences,
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but near-death experiences would sort of be spontaneous. When people
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say their life flashed before their eyes or they went
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and visited heaven when they were dying on the table
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and then they were brought back to life and they
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had this experience. We've heard lots of stories from people
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who have claimed this. And there are Christians on both
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sides will say that. near-death experiences are real or near-death
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experiences are not real. There is a really important distinction
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between trying to visit an astral plane filled with spirits
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you don't know trying to escape the physical world and
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attain some sort of higher consciousness and become like a
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God versus having a spontaneous out of your control near-death experience.
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So it does, usually a near-death experience occurs when you're
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experiencing high intensity life-threatening events, right? It's not like you
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planned it. They might report floating above their bodies. We've seen,
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and that's, again, similar to what we might see with
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astral projection. They might talk about seeing a light. They
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might actually talk about interacting with deceased relatives or other
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beings or experiencing a lot of peace or feeling like
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they've entered an alternate reality even. But That's not the same, again,
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as astral projection. It's usually discussed with something that we
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can induce, not just experience when we're near death, right?
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And so I want people to know that not all
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out-of-body experiences are created equal. And you can have good
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conversation on both topics, but they are astral projection and
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near-death experiences. are not exactly the same thing.
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So what about someone who wants to, that sounds intriguing
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to them, the astral plane? Can anyone decide that they
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want to experience astral projection or does it require some
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kind of practice or some kind of skill set in
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order to reach the astral plane?
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From what I can tell, Melanie, it does require intentionality.
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And that was really the subject of Robert Bruce's book, Astrodynamics.
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The subtitle is The Complete Book of Out-of-Body Experiences. And
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there are illustrations throughout the text about body placement and
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what's happening in certain parts of your body during your experiences,
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not just with astral projection, but other things that you
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might experience when you're trying to to practice astral projection.
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People who practice astral projection will say that the best
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way to attain this is usually through deep relaxation or
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meditation or visualization. There are some sleep-wake transitions that they
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will make their bodies aware of and intentionally induce something
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like astral projection in that timeframe. And there are some
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other practices too, including the use of drugs or alcohol
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to induce this astral projection state. Robert Bruce, he explains
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that there are goals that you can strive to achieve
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that will get you closer and closer to getting to
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your higher self, sort of steps you can take. You're
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probably not going to be expert level the first day
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that you try astral projection, according to Bruce. But that
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doesn't mean that you should just give up, according to Bruce. Now,
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I want to be clear, Melanie, that even though we
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talk about these subjects and sometimes the way that I
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phrase things makes it sound like I'm encouraging people to
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practice them. It's hard sometimes to restate maybe what might
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be obvious to me but might not be obvious to
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the listener that I'm talking from their perspective and not
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from mine. So I am not encouraging people to attempt
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astral projection. I am just stating that there are actually
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guidebooks to do it for those who are interested in it.
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And that is something Christians should be aware of because
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people are getting information. And in order to respond, we
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kind of need to know the information that they're getting.
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And so hopefully in just a few minutes, I've told
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you kind of where that information is coming from and
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eventually I'll give you some responses that we can kind
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of grapple with this together.
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I'm sure there are people that are out there as
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they listen to this asking kind of a skeptical question.
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In other words, I don't think any of this is
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supported by science. So is there any scientific evidence for
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out-of-body experiences and what in particular, if anything... does science
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say about astral projection?
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Yeah, this is an interesting area. As some listeners might know,
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and of course, as you know, Melanie, I'm married to
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a psychologist. And so usually when I'm talking about science
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and researchers, I will start with him and ask him
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what he knows about the topics. And he did send
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me some information about all a variety of things that
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had been discussed about out-of-body experiences and even some research
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that had been done by the CIA to maybe perhaps
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use people who were good with out-of-body experiences to maybe
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examine evidence or find killers or whatever the case may be. Now,
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the result of most of that research has been pretty
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consistent in that the people who were being researched had
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similar results as the people who were guessing. So if
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you had half of the group claim to be people
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who were having out-of-body experiences like astral projection and half
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of the group, they're not. And you ask them what's
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happening behind the wall, right? In astral projection, you should
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be able to see that because remember you're kind of
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floating and you're able to see yourself. And then eventually
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you travel to the astral plane, but you should be
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able to reveal to researchers what's happening, like what page
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is being held up or what image is on the
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screen or whatever it may be. And the results of
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that have been that they're pretty equal. The people who
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claim to be participating in astral projection versus the people
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who are just guessing have about the same results. So that's,
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in my mind, that's evidence that perhaps the out-of-body experiences
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aren't actually supported by science. And there's, of course, just
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not a lot of physical proof because, again, this is
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happening with a person's consciousness. And so how can I,
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I don't see people's consciousness. And even if they claim
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that they're floating above, their body is floating above the room,
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I don't see that happening. And as a researcher, you
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just see the person laying there and sitting there, not
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projecting themselves somewhere else. So it's really hard to prove
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in that way as well. But researchers do seem pretty
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open to having people share their firsthand experiences on this topic.
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Because if you study the brain, you want to know
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more about what the brain is doing and why. And
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that really does seem to be the question that researchers
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are asking themselves is, why do about 10% of the
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population claim to be able to have these experiences? What's
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going on in their brain that perhaps is different from
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the rest of the population, if anything? And then, of course,
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asking the questions, what's actually happening on the astral plane?
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Is there a consequence for whatever happens on the astral
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plane in the physical world? Do we see that play out?
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What is the impact? One of the questions I saw
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in one of the studies I read was what is
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the impact overall on the person's life in experiencing astral projection?
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Are there positive experiences or are they negative experiences? On
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the whole, the people who claim to have out-of-body experiences
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claim they are better for it. But again, we as Christians,
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we should be skeptical when we start talking about things
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like going to other dimensions to see spirits or hear
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from other immaterial beings. We need to be on guard
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against those things and recognize that just because someone claims
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to have experienced it doesn't necessarily make it real. Truth
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is paramount. And as Christians, we really need to elevate it.
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Well, you were just saying how it doesn't seem to
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be real and science is not supporting it, but the
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people participating in this do believe it's real, why do
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you think they believe that the astral plane is a
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real place that they're going to?
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For me, I think it comes down to when people
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are very convinced of something they've experienced, it's really hard
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to convince them otherwise, right? So even, I mean, we
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can look at kids that claim they've experienced things and
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you're like, no, that didn't happen, right? And we've got
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these false memories sometimes that our older people in our
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homes are like, yeah, we never did that. But I
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swear that's what we did. And the answer is, no,
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we actually didn't do those things. So it's really hard
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to argue with someone who is convinced that they've had
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a particular experience. And not only do they feel that
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their experiences are real, sometimes they even have a hard
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time explaining them themselves. And so the not only do
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you have people who are listening to the experience being skeptical,
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but then you've got people who are claiming to have
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the experiences also skeptical of their experience. And we see
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this pretty consistently with near death experiences, right? We see
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this with people who claim to have had a near
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death experience and they're like, yeah, it was so crazy.
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I don't even know if that was really my experience.
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And that would be consistent with other out of body experiences.
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So if I tell you like you had a dream and,
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but you remember that you were conscious and that you
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were seeing your bedroom and you were on the ceiling
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and you could hear other people in other parts of
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the house and you floated through the hallway. How do
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I argue with that? I can argue by saying that
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doesn't align with reality. We don't do that in real life,
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but it's going to be really hard for me to
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convince you otherwise. But we need to be careful about
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accepting it as true simply, simply because somebody says that
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it happened, especially when we're talking about potentially spiritual, um, experiences.
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I started this podcast, Melanie talking about the history of
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it and with the theosophical society, they are very interested
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in spiritual experiences, which is one of the reasons why
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astral projection was one of the things they focused on. Um,
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If someone like somebody who is probably a member of
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the Theosophical Society already believes that human beings have an
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astral body that can separate from the physical body, then
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anything they dream of or any kind of thing they
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might encounter in meditation might equate to them as confirmation
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that out-of-body experiences like astral projection is really happening to them.
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And then, of course, they get confirmation when they go
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online and they search for it. And they're like, oh,
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did I just have an out-of-body experience? You search for
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it and you end up on Reddit or some other
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site or YouTube or TikTok where you've got maybe thousands
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of people who have given testimony saying, I experienced this
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out-of-body experience or I experienced astral projection or even like
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how-to series on how to have astral projection happen in
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your own life. And again, if we're trying to have
476
00:32:27.049 --> 00:32:31.019
a conversation with somebody who believes that this is their experience,
477
00:32:31.059 --> 00:32:34.920
and they see all of this confirmation from culture, we've
478
00:32:34.940 --> 00:32:37.339
got to be really gentle in the way that we
479
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:43.180
approach the conversation. And we need to stay ourselves firmly
480
00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:48.029
in truth. Because The reality is, is Christians aren't going
481
00:32:48.049 --> 00:32:50.089
to want to mess with those spirits on the astral plane,
482
00:32:50.410 --> 00:32:53.250
even if they do exist. And we need to be
483
00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:58.089
able to speak that into reality, into the person's life.
484
00:32:59.769 --> 00:33:03.759
So that makes me wonder if there are any Christians
485
00:33:03.930 --> 00:33:07.119
out there trying to reach the astral plane. What did you,
486
00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:10.039
as you were researching this topic, what did you find out?
487
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:12.180
I mean, are there Christians who are trying to do
488
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:14.960
that and want to participate in this kind of out-of-body experience?
489
00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:19.369
As we seem to talk about quite frequently, Melanie, is
490
00:33:19.569 --> 00:33:21.890
I'm always kind of surprised when I find the answer
491
00:33:21.910 --> 00:33:24.049
to this question. And I don't know why, because the
492
00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:28.720
answer is consistent. Yes, there are Christians who are trying
493
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:32.420
to practice astral projection. Not a lot of them are
494
00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:36.460
giving full on testimonies about it, but it's definitely in
495
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.880
the church, just like things like reincarnation or crystal use
496
00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:45.109
or any of the astrology that Right. There are Christians
497
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.990
who are buying into this. It is a smaller percentage.
498
00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:51.750
I don't have an exact number, but if it's only
499
00:33:51.750 --> 00:33:54.490
10 percent of the population in the world that claims
500
00:33:54.529 --> 00:33:58.420
to have astral projection experiences, it's probably going to be
501
00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:02.880
less than that number of Christians. Right. But again, it's
502
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.680
not always easy to find the answers to that question
503
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.110
in particular, because not everybody is going to be bold
504
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:12.090
enough to proclaim that they believe a certain new age
505
00:34:12.150 --> 00:34:16.889
thing or a cult thing. That said, it doesn't represent
506
00:34:17.010 --> 00:34:21.530
mainstream Christian teaching. This isn't something that you could go
507
00:34:21.590 --> 00:34:24.130
to any church on Sunday morning and the pastor is
508
00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:27.869
going to be teaching you how to participate in astral projection,
509
00:34:28.309 --> 00:34:31.869
at least not with regard to a Bible teaching, firmly
510
00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:35.670
grounded in truth kind of church. With regard to Christians
511
00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:39.030
who might be trying it, I have to ask myself, why?
512
00:34:39.429 --> 00:34:43.699
Why would a Christian want to try astral projection? What's
513
00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:47.210
in it for them? If you don't believe that you're
514
00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:51.269
going to become God, what's the goal? One answer could
515
00:34:51.329 --> 00:34:55.969
be that perhaps they want to explore more of God's creation.
516
00:34:56.769 --> 00:34:58.730
They want to see all the dimensions because they want
517
00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:03.989
to know everything that God created. Others might actually be
518
00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:09.889
interested in their consciousness and their soul. Can they tap
519
00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:13.820
into the reality of what their soul is and Can
520
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:18.079
their soul be disconnected from their physical body while they
521
00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:23.469
are still alive? Others might just simply be curious. They've
522
00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:25.710
heard of, and that's kind of my concern about even
523
00:35:25.789 --> 00:35:28.090
talking about topics like some of the ones that we cover,
524
00:35:28.110 --> 00:35:31.230
because I don't want Christians to stumble upon the podcast
525
00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:34.349
and be like, oh, that sounds interesting. I should try that.
526
00:35:34.690 --> 00:35:37.969
That's the opposite of what I'm trying to say here.
527
00:35:37.989 --> 00:35:41.590
But again, Christians might be curious about what it would
528
00:35:41.610 --> 00:35:45.630
be like to do astral projection or what the astral
529
00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:49.449
plane is. They might be interested in learning more about
530
00:35:49.489 --> 00:35:53.329
the spiritual realm. And how do I know why Christians
531
00:35:53.389 --> 00:35:56.219
would do what they're, why would they would want to?
532
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.519
You ask them. If you're in a conversation with a
533
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:02.619
Christian friend and they're talking to you about how they
534
00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:08.280
just started practicing astral projection, the first question could be, why? Why?
535
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:13.320
What's your interest in astral projection? And once you have
536
00:36:13.340 --> 00:36:15.880
an answer, it can get a lot easier to then
537
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:21.690
have a full conversation and give warnings. It's more thoughtful, right?
538
00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:24.690
We're thinking about the actual person in front of us,
539
00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:27.730
not just making assumptions based on what you heard on
540
00:36:27.769 --> 00:36:29.469
a podcast or read in an article.
541
00:36:30.929 --> 00:36:33.510
So, you know, just given all that and that there
542
00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:39.179
is some interest by Christians, is astral projection important? biblical.
543
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.980
I mean, can you be a Christian and practice astral projection?
544
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.000
Well, this might be controversial. I have no idea if
545
00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:50.760
I'm being honest, but no, I would say Christians should
546
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:56.010
not participate in astral projection. That said, there's like not
547
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.429
a line in the Bible that says astral projection is
548
00:36:59.489 --> 00:37:04.590
prohibited or you're sinning if you participate in astral projection.
549
00:37:05.090 --> 00:37:07.829
So you can't search in the Bible and find a
550
00:37:07.849 --> 00:37:11.739
verse like that. But there is sort of a framework, Melanie,
551
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:16.739
in scripture that gives us some intuition as to maybe
552
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.340
the practices we could be involved in and those we
553
00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:23.070
should avoid. And I really think that astral projection is
554
00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:27.010
one of those mark and avoid kind of scenarios. For example,
555
00:37:27.130 --> 00:37:31.329
in Deuteronomy... We think it's 18. That's where we get
556
00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:37.789
our prohibitions against divination and sorcery and mediums and inquiring
557
00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:42.989
of the dead. In Leviticus 19, we also get warnings
558
00:37:43.170 --> 00:37:47.809
against mediums. Then one of the things that I saw
559
00:37:48.230 --> 00:37:52.150
as sort of an argument in support of astral projection
560
00:37:52.190 --> 00:37:55.739
for Christians was in the New Testament. We see an
561
00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:00.619
experience described in 2 Corinthians 12, where Paul is talking
562
00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:03.599
about being caught up to the third heaven, and he
563
00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:06.679
says he doesn't know whether he was in the body
564
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.039
or out of the body. And so some people might
565
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:13.610
twist that scripture to say, see, out-of-body experiences like astral
566
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:17.969
projection are totally fine. But the important piece of that
567
00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:21.610
is Paul doesn't turn around and say, okay, Christians, this
568
00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:24.230
is how you experience that. This is how you can
569
00:38:24.289 --> 00:38:28.989
reproduce what I did and get yourselves to the third heaven.
570
00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:33.590
In fact, it's a revelation that God gave him. It
571
00:38:33.650 --> 00:38:37.050
wasn't a technique that he learned or that he told
572
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:43.679
Christians to pursue. So Paul's experience is actually not the
573
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:49.199
same as divination. It was just an experience with God
574
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.739
that God allowed him to have. So Christians ultimately... need
575
00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:59.480
to be really cautious and they need to not pursue
576
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:06.159
astral projection. That's my bottom line. I'm going to just
577
00:39:06.179 --> 00:39:08.679
play all my cards here and show them that I
578
00:39:08.739 --> 00:39:15.119
don't think that a Christian should pursue astral projection, especially
579
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:22.599
when they are engaging with spiritual entities that they don't know. Right.
580
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:26.440
Like we don't know what these entities are. This is
581
00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:29.909
the same warning we give when Christians think that they.
582
00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:34.039
could maybe participate at a Halloween party with Ouija boards
583
00:39:34.659 --> 00:39:38.659
or that they could maybe go and get tarot cards
584
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.199
read or they could go meet with a psychic. It's
585
00:39:41.489 --> 00:39:45.789
always about, okay, who are you actually interacting with? And
586
00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:50.329
for me, you're not guaranteed to interact with a good
587
00:39:50.409 --> 00:39:54.409
spirit when you're dabbling in things like astral projection. I
588
00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.320
would say, again, we have to make sure that there's
589
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.659
a distinction between pursued or induced out-of-body experiences like astral
590
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.489
projection versus spontaneous ones like near-death experiences.
591
00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:13.449
So how should Christians be equipped by your article in
592
00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:17.269
our conversation if some of their friends or family members
593
00:40:17.409 --> 00:40:21.469
are seriously considering trying to attempt astral projection?
594
00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:27.219
This is one of my favorite questions because I love
595
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:30.460
the heart behind it. I love that there is a
596
00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:34.880
desire to have a conversation rather than just to shut
597
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:38.840
them out or write them off. So if somebody starts
598
00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:42.800
to tell you that they had an out-of-body experience, my
599
00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:46.389
first suggestion is to listen to them. And listen to them.
600
00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:49.559
I think for Christians, wouldn't you say it's more like NDEs? Oh,
601
00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:52.159
I died and went to heaven. Yeah.
602
00:40:52.659 --> 00:40:56.340
Yeah. Yeah. So like we want to listen. We want
603
00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:59.139
to know what they're talking about. And we need to
604
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:03.409
ask them, you know, what they think it means. Right. Okay.
605
00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:07.349
You're claiming that perhaps you had this experience. What does
606
00:41:07.389 --> 00:41:11.809
that mean to you? And then we get to have that,
607
00:41:12.469 --> 00:41:17.340
you know, discussion about, well, is your experience reality? Is
608
00:41:17.389 --> 00:41:20.250
it possible that you could have been dreaming? How do
609
00:41:20.289 --> 00:41:24.110
you know what caused the experience? Any number of things
610
00:41:24.369 --> 00:41:27.289
could have happened. And we want to make sure that
611
00:41:27.309 --> 00:41:34.139
we're asking them all sorts of things. So I would
612
00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:36.599
say that these are probably going to come up more
613
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:42.719
frequently as we get closer to Halloween, as we get
614
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:49.590
closer to experiences where culturally some cultures are trying to
615
00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:55.690
interact with their deceased relatives, and it might seem enticing
616
00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:59.800
to them to engage in astral projection if there's perhaps
617
00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:03.860
a chance that they could engage with their lost loved ones.
618
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.139
And we need to come from a place of wanting
619
00:42:07.219 --> 00:42:11.139
to understand, and we want to come from a place
620
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:17.030
of discernment as well, because The Bible constantly tells us
621
00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:22.849
to test what we encounter rather than simply accepting every
622
00:42:22.889 --> 00:42:27.610
spiritual claim. And Melanie, this is the season where all
623
00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:31.599
of the spiritual claims happen that are usually not aligned
624
00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:36.780
with Christianity and give us lots of opportunities to expound, right?
625
00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:40.980
And to reveal truth in darkness. This is not necessarily
626
00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:44.329
about like, Should I go to a fall festival? This is,
627
00:42:45.389 --> 00:42:50.500
should we practice astral projection together at a Halloween party
628
00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:56.019
one night? No, you shouldn't. And that is because we
629
00:42:56.059 --> 00:43:00.099
can't believe, like 1 John 4 says, we can't believe
630
00:43:00.219 --> 00:43:03.159
every spirit, right? We have to test the spirits and
631
00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:06.030
see whether they are from God. And from what I
632
00:43:06.090 --> 00:43:10.550
can tell, what's found in the astral projection realm, the
633
00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:14.840
astral plane, probably isn't from God. The thing is that
634
00:43:14.900 --> 00:43:18.000
God does not hide himself from us. We don't have
635
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:22.480
to go to another dimension to find God. He has
636
00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:27.190
already revealed himself to us through Christ. And that's a
637
00:43:27.230 --> 00:43:30.670
really important idea that we need to hold firm to
638
00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:34.010
when we're confronted with kind of the creepy crawly things
639
00:43:34.329 --> 00:43:38.469
of this season. So asking yourself, like, do you know
640
00:43:38.570 --> 00:43:42.300
what you believe about astral projection? Do you understand the
641
00:43:42.340 --> 00:43:46.119
word occult? Do you understand what spiritualism is? Do you
642
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:49.480
understand what are the things that our kids are being
643
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.039
confronted with? And can you talk about it? And that
644
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:57.639
comes with practice. You can definitely practice this with a friend, right?
645
00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:02.219
I will run things by my husband from time to time. Like, ooh,
646
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:04.929
should I say that? Or would this be appropriate if
647
00:44:05.469 --> 00:44:10.750
I told that story? One other thing is that I really...
648
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:16.219
want Christians to remember that we need to keep our
649
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:21.090
focus on Christ. It could be really easy to lose
650
00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:25.050
Christ in this season. We always hear Jesus is the
651
00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:27.510
reason for this season, but the truth is Jesus is
652
00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:31.250
the reason for all seasons. And it's all seasons that
653
00:44:31.269 --> 00:44:33.889
we should be talking about Christ and focusing on Christ.
654
00:44:34.369 --> 00:44:38.449
And if we don't have Christ-centered relationships where we can
655
00:44:38.590 --> 00:44:43.699
share truth openly, with our Christian friends, but even Christ-centered
656
00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:48.980
relationships within ourselves with non-Christian folks, it gets a lot
657
00:44:49.059 --> 00:44:53.849
harder for us to show Christ when there are so
658
00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:59.469
many occultic things happening around us from displays in people's
659
00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:04.070
yards to parties that we're invited to, to even costumes
660
00:45:04.329 --> 00:45:08.909
that we see the night of trick-or-treating. Keeping Christ close
661
00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:12.840
to us helps us reveal him more closely to others.
662
00:45:13.510 --> 00:45:17.349
And for me, that is the key. We could get
663
00:45:17.409 --> 00:45:21.510
wrapped up in all of these questions about spiritualism and
664
00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:25.429
going to different dimensions and all the other things that
665
00:45:25.510 --> 00:45:30.360
new age people or new agers believe. But instead, we
666
00:45:30.380 --> 00:45:33.480
should be mostly wrapped up in the personhood and the
667
00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:37.519
godhood of Jesus and who he is in our lives.
668
00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:40.219
so that he can be revealed to everyone.
669
00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:46.110
Well, thanks for this very interesting conversation about astral projection.
670
00:45:46.130 --> 00:45:50.389
I'm sure not all of our listeners have heard about that. Well,
671
00:45:50.570 --> 00:45:53.789
on a much lighter note, something fun, all of us
672
00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:59.360
will either be giving or getting candy out during this month,
673
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:01.199
whether you go to a trunk or treat at your
674
00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:04.039
church or you do it in your neighborhood. So, Lindsay,
675
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:09.050
would you rather eat chocolate candy or non-chocolate candy like
676
00:46:09.170 --> 00:46:10.530
Skittles and things like that.
677
00:46:11.349 --> 00:46:14.619
Definitely chocolate girl. I love chocolate, all kinds of chocolate.
678
00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:19.039
So you're a team chocolate. Well, thank you so much, Lindsay,
679
00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:23.099
for being a guest again on the Postmodern Realities Podcast.
680
00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:26.170
And we can look forward to hearing from Lindsay again.
681
00:46:26.210 --> 00:46:28.909
You won't want to miss our next episode with her
682
00:46:28.969 --> 00:46:32.550
this month. She will be delving into the topic of dousing,
683
00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:35.369
which is one of the most popular articles we have
684
00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:40.750
on our website and it's consistently in the top 25
685
00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:44.190
articles accessed on our site. And we haven't had an
686
00:46:44.230 --> 00:46:46.769
update on that article for, I think, about 40 years.
687
00:46:46.889 --> 00:46:49.969
So we'll look forward to hearing Lindsay talk to us
688
00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:52.159
about that later this month. So thanks for being a
689
00:46:52.179 --> 00:46:54.320
guest again on the Postmodern Realities Podcast.
690
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.260
Thanks, Melanie.
691
00:46:56.199 --> 00:47:01.739
You've been listening to episode 520 of the Postmodern Realities
692
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:07.139
Podcast from the Christian Research Journal. Today's guest was Lindsay Mendenwald.
693
00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.760
She has written an exclusive online feature article for the
694
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:14.989
Fringe Files column in the Christian Research Journal. The article
695
00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:22.230
is called Astral Projection, Biblical Discernment, and Out-of-Body Experiences. You
696
00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:27.550
can read this article for free at equip.org. Please make
697
00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:30.670
sure you're subscribing to all of the podcasts available from
698
00:47:30.690 --> 00:47:35.590
the Christian Research Institute. We have our flagship podcast, the
699
00:47:35.630 --> 00:47:40.090
daily Bible Answer Man podcast from CRI President Hank Hanegraaff.
700
00:47:40.610 --> 00:47:44.730
This is a question and answer format that is available
701
00:47:44.769 --> 00:47:48.210
Monday through Friday, and also there's a best of the
702
00:47:48.250 --> 00:47:52.110
week episode on Saturdays. You'll want to make sure that
703
00:47:52.170 --> 00:47:56.389
you are subscribed to Hank Unplugged, and in this podcast,
704
00:47:56.409 --> 00:48:01.050
Hank will take you beyond soundbites and into thoughtful, in-depth
705
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:07.059
explorations of critical issues that are confronting Christians today. Hank
706
00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:12.780
draws on scripture, history, theology, and culture, and will equip
707
00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:17.449
listeners to think Christianly about the questions that matter most
708
00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:22.110
and how to contend for the faith with knowledge and
709
00:48:22.150 --> 00:48:26.090
with wisdom. Of course, we have our two podcasts from
710
00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:29.530
the Christian Research Journal, the one you're listening to right now,
711
00:48:29.650 --> 00:48:35.719
Postmodern Realities, which is author interviews and discussions based on
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the articles that you will find on our website, equip.org.
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Also our sister podcast, which is audio articles of the
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articles that we're talking about in postmodern realities. It is
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the full audio article and it is the podcast called
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Christian Research Journal Reads. And you won't want to miss
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out on our very newest podcast. It was only launched
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this year in 2026. It's called Commitment to Reality. It's
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from Dave Hanegraaff.
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All of our podcasts are available on every podcasting subscription platform.
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So make sure you add in all of these. And
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as always, thank you so much for your partner. and
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for listening