Trump's Indefensible Pardons

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slash crooked. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Welcome to Pod
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Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
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I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
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On today's show, America's golden age has begun, Dan. We'll
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talk about the first week of Donald Trump's second term
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and try to separate the signal from the noise, though
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there was quite a bit of the latter during the
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president's sit-down in the Oval with his pal Sean Hannity
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on Wednesday night. There was also a catfight between two
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of Trump's billionaire friends that broke out over which one
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of them gets to help control the artificial intelligence that
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could destroy civilization. So that's fun. We'll also talk about
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what Democrats might learn about how to fight back from
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an Episcopal bishop and a pod bro. And speaking of Democrats,
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DNC chair candidate Faz Shakir, one of the smartest voices
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in progressive politics, stops by to talk to Dan about
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why he's running and how he's different. But first, as
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of Wednesday evening, Donald Trump had signed by our count
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48 executive orders and actions and generally spent the week
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making decisions. drastic changes to the way our country is
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governed and how our society views itself. Some of this
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we previewed on the Tuesday show, but here's a sample
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of the moves that got the most attention. Trump ordered
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a review of the Biden administration's investigative actions, quote, to
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correct past misconduct related to the weaponization of law enforcement
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and the weaponization of the intelligence community. He withdrew America
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from the World Health Organization and the Paris Climate Agreement.
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He's also pausing all leases for offshore wind farms. and
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incentives to buy electric vehicles. He's sending U.S. troops to
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the southern border and building a mass deportation force of
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federal agents to begin immigration raids. He's also directed federal
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prosecutors to criminally investigate state and local officials who resist
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the coming deportations. But Trump's also going after legal immigration.
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He signed an order trying to end birthright citizenship for
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the children of immigrants who aren't yet citizens, even the
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ones who are here legally on visas. He suspended our
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asylum and refugee programs. He signed orders directing the federal
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government to dismantle all diversity, equity and inclusion programs and
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jobs to no longer officially recognize transgender Americans, to freeze
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all federal hiring and make it easier to replace nonpolitical
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civil servants with Trump loyalists, which he is already doing.
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He gave top secret clearances to White House staff without
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going through background checks. And he also canceled the security
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clearances of 51 people who signed a letter casting doubt
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on the Hunter Biden laptop thing. He's renaming Denali over
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the objections of Alaska's Republican senators and the Gulf of
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Mexico over the objections of anyone whose brain hasn't been broken.
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He signed an order directing all executive departments and agencies
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to deliver emergency price relief to Americans. Didn't realize the
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Commerce Department was responsible for the price of eggs. And
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last but not least, he has issued pardons and commutations
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for all of the January 6th defendants, regardless of the
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severity of their crimes. That's a lot. We're going to
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spend some time on the pardons and immigration in a bit,
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but beyond those two big issues, what from this list
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really matters the most, what matters less, and what is
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just a bullshitty talking point?
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I think other than the renaming various things on various maps,
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we should take all of it pretty seriously. Even if
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the order seems more symbolic or so legally dubious that
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even this Supreme Court is likely to strike it down
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because it all sends a message to the Project 2025
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goons who are going to be running this government about
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what they should do, right? The order on investigating the
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investigations to understand the weaponization of government, that's kind of
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a fake thing, but that is a signal to Kash
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Patel and the people who work for him, the people
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in Pam Bondi's DOJ, that we want to investigate these people, right?
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Even if the order doesn't mean that much, It sends
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a dangerous signal to dangerous people. And so we should
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take it quite seriously. Having to choose amongst this list
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of terrible things as the thing that's most terrible is
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pretty hard. But for me, the stuff I'm most concerned
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about is all the climate stuff. It is pulling out
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of Paris. It is getting rid of electric vehicle incentives.
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In part because on climate, it's the one thing we
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don't have time to waste, right? We're already behind schedule
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and trying to get where we need to get to
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keep the planet alive, and wasting another four years on
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Donald Trump is deeply dangerous, and it's time we can't
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get back. On some of these other things, if we
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can survive these four years, you can go back and
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you can undo the worst policy does. You can issue
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new executive orders. You can pass new laws. On climate,
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we're never going to get those years back, and I
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think that comes at a great cost.
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Yeah, I think the climate stuff is pretty horrible. I
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think probably the most bullshitty executive order is the one
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on Yes, yes, for sure. even if you think that
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they don't really care. At least they care about staying
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in power. You think just would have been more popular
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to have lower prices. So you think they would have
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done that. But that's probably because there are no levers
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in the federal government to bring down prices that Joe
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Biden hadn't already tried over the last four years. So
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that is clearly window dressing and just sort of bullshit.
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Let's talk about the January 6th pardons, which, while promised
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by Trump during the campaign, I think it's fair to
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say were not expected to be this broad. Pardons and commutations,
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even for people convicted of brutally assaulting police officers and
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for the leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers,
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which are two far-right paramilitary groups. Those two leaders had
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been found guilty of seditious conspiracy. As recently as January 12th,
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Vice President J.D. Vance said, while defending potential pardons for
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nonviolent offenders, quote, if you committed violence on that day, obviously,
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you shouldn't be pardoned. J.D. Vance, if you committed violence
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on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Not so
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obvious to J.D. Vance's boss, who according to reporting from Notice,
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decided to extend the pardon to even the most violent
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criminals because of the blowback to Vance's interview from Trump's base.
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According to Axios, Trump said, fuck it, release them all.
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Trump did an interview with Sean Hannity on Wednesday night
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where he talked about his reasoning.
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Number of reasons. Number one, they were in there for
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three and a half years, a long time. And in
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many solitary confinement, treated like nobody's ever been treated. Treated
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so badly. They knew the election was rigged and they
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were protesting the vote. And that you should be allowed
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to protest a vote. You should be allowed to. You know,
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when the day comes... You shouldn't be able to invade
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the Capitol. Most of the people were absolutely innocent. Okay,
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but forgetting all about that, it would be very, very
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cumbersome to go and Look, you know how many people
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we're talking about? 1,500 people. Almost all of them are,
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should not have been, this should not have happened. They
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were very minor incidents, okay? You know, they get built
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up by that couple of fake guys that are on
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CNN all the time. They were very minor incidents.
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I'm so angry about this. I want to talk about
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Michael Fanone for a minute. He's a D.C. police officer.
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He was beaten within an inch of his life on
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January 6th. Wasn't even on duty that day. Responded to
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radio calls for assistance. After he got there, the rioters
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dragged him down the steps, sprayed chemicals in his face,
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beat him with pipes, tased him repeatedly in the back
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of the neck, and said they were going to kill
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him with his own gun while he said, please, I
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have kids. He suffered burns, a concussion, traumatic brain injury,
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and a heart attack. He had to retire immediately. He
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testified at the January 6th trial. He's gotten threats. His
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family's gotten threats. He said that as recently as a
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month ago, his 76-year-old mother was outside gardening and someone
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threw human feces on her, a Trump supporter, because of
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her son. The man who tased Michael Fanone is Daniel
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Rodriguez from California. He saw Trump call for a protest
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on January 6th. Got on a big group chat, told
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everyone to bring knives and bear spray to Washington where
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he said he would, quote, hang Congress. And after he
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tased Michael Fanone until he lost consciousness, he wrote on
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the group chat, quote, tased the fuck out of the blue.
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And after he pleaded guilty to assaulting an officer with
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a dangerous weapon, he walked out of the courtroom. He screamed,
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Trump won. He was sentenced just about a year ago,
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and now he is free. No shorter sentence, free. And now,
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Michael Fanone is trying to get a protective order because
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the rioters who were pardoned are now threatening to go
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after the people who sent them to prison. I don't
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know what to do with that, Dan.
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I mean, it is so deeply dangerous.
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Yes.
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And the way Trump talked about it is just, it's
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pure gaslighting, right? None of what he's saying is true.
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Nothing that he describes happened the way it happened. These
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are not peaceful protesters. It's an entirely made-up reality to
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justify this pardon. And it's all belied by video evidence,
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testimony from the people who were there, testimony from some
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of his allies and former aides. And he has created
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this false reality. And I think the scariest thing about
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it is he clearly believes it. There's a lot of
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things Donald Trump says that he obviously doesn't believe. He
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has convinced himself about what happened on January 6th, that
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it is something that was not violent in the way
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it was, and that the violence that did happen was justified.
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It was on his behalf. And it is quite, quite scary.
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And look, for all the Republicans and other people who think, oh,
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we're going to re-litigate January 6th again, and we're looking back,
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this is actually about the future, why this is so dangerous.
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Because now Donald Trump has pardoned all of these right-wing
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extremists who were armed, who committed violence, who are not
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apologetic at all, who are not, you know, maintaining their
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innocence either. They know they're guilty. They've said they're guilty.
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They're not apologetic. And now they're out of prison. And
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other right-wing extremists who might want to cause violence, now
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know that if you commit violence in Donald Trump's name,
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then he's got your back. And so why wouldn't they
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commit violence again? Now they're all talking about revenge. Revenge
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against the people who testified, against the prosecutors, against the
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judges who put them in prison. And so like when
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the Proud Boys come to your community and start marching
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or menacing people or whatever the hell they do, what
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are the police going to do? knowing that when last
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time a police officer was beaten within an inch of
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his life, that the perpetrator was just released. Are the
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police going to protect us? Who's going to protect people?
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Because it's Donald Trump's, whether or not Donald Trump thinks
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it's his private army, they think they're Donald Trump's private army.
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That's what they think.
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What does it say about the politics of the Trump
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coalition that they believed that it would be a huge
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political problem to not pardon right-wing militia groups?
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Right.
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I mean, that's where it is that that would be
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a political problem. And I think these pardons are the
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fullest expression of that famous quote from Frank Wilhoite that
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went viral a few years ago. Conservatism consists of exactly
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one proposition to win. There must be in groups whom
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the law protects but does not bind alongside out groups
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who the law binds but does not protect.
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Yes.
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If you support Donald Trump, you have the full protection
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of the law. If you do not support Donald Trump,
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if you oppose him, then the law will be turned
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against you. That is the message of Donald Trump on
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the first day of his presidency.
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Meanwhile, even before he sits down with Hannity, Trump allies
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were having trouble defending these pardons. Let's listen to some Republicans.
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What about those who assaulted police officers and then were
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pardoned by the president?
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I haven't seen any.
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I haven't gone into the detail.
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What do you make of President Trump's pardons for violent offenders?
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I'm grateful that President Trump is the president of the
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United States.
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I certainly don't want to pardon any violent actors, but
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There was a real miscarriage of justice here, so I'm
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totally supportive of it.
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Are you comfortable with that?
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I haven't seen the details.
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It's supposed to.
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Be 12 years.
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You've got less than one.
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Are you okay with that?
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It's not my place. It's the president's own decision, and
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he made a decision.
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Again, it's not ideal, but I'm not overly concerned about
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it either.
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I think the gift is that it's all behind us now.
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Pathetic.
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Pathetic. I think those Republicans, I think every elected Republican
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should be asked that question, who refused to answer it,
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should be asked that question every single day. That any
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reporter can get in their face and put a microphone there.
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The ones who are walking through Congress. I mean, I just,
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at least answer the question. At least have the courage
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to say, yeah, I support the pardons of the violent
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criminals who beat the shit out of police officers and
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almost killed them. Yeah, I support it. At least say that.
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Instead of just running away. I mean, do you think
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that Republicans will pay a political price for defending this?
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Is this something that is going to haunt some of
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these members when they're up for reelection in two years?
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It will haunt them more if the reporters and others
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in politics are aggressive about continuing to ask the question
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and we don't just give up after six days. These reporters,
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these Capitol reporters, many of whom also have their lives
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in danger on January 6th, are going to see these
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members every single day. Are they going to keep asking
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about this? Or are they going to switch to their
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opinion on whether it's one bill or two bills or
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whatever else? If they drive this, then it has a
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greater chance of staying in the public consciousness. The pardons
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are very unpopular. Large majorities oppose them. Even a significant
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number of Trump's most ardent supporters don't think they're a
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great idea. And I think we should– Democrats should scream
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from the rooftops about this as much as we possibly
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can because most voters are not going to know this
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happened or they're not going to understand exactly who he
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pardoned and what those people did and what the consequences
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of that are. But I do want to sort of
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level set expectations on the politics of this in the
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short term, at least. And this gets to what I
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think is one of the analytical errors that I made
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in 2024 when talking about this election, is we have
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to sort of understand the difference between the popularity of
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an issue and how big a priority is for voters.
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These parties were always unpopular. Every voter, people said they
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did not like them. They do not like it when
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Donald Trump talks about January 6th. But in the end,
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for most of the voters who were persuaded, well, this
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did not drive their vote choice. because they cared so
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much about costs in immigration to a slightly lesser extent,
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that they're willing to put up with a whole bunch
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of shit that Donald Trump was willing to do that
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they did not like if he was going to lower
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their costs. So the political price of this is going
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to come if and when prices don't come down, as
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Donald Trump says, or the borders not become more secure,
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or America continues to feel more chaotic. In the short term,
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is this going to move things a lot? Probably not.
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But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep talking about it,
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because it's incredibly important.
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Yeah, I just, I get why it didn't move vote. Like,
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first of all, how many people knew that he was
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promising pardons like this? How many people knew exactly what
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these people did? And it's a prospective promise during a campaign.
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And it's not something that you're experiencing while you're going
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to the voting booth. Now he's done the pardons. Now
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we should be telling the stories of what happened. Because
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I think this goes, like, okay, what if prices do
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come down? but there's still paramilitary groups roaming our communities, right? Like,
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probably we should say something about that. Probably we should
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let people know what's happening. And, you know, I mean,
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we'll get into the democratic discussion about, you know, how
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Democrats are responding, but I completely understand the driving force
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behind Trump's victory and probably the central challenge that has
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destabilized American politics has to do with people's living standards
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and yawning economic inequality in this country. And so I
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completely understand that. But sometimes I think you just have
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to talk about one thing and then you have to
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talk about the other thing. You have to be able
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to talk about both, especially this far out from an election,
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you know, because I think this is the time, if
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any time, to cede the ground and make sure that
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people know what has happened and what the stories are.
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Yeah, I think maybe the way to think about this is,
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and one of the strategic errors of the first Trump term.
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There was this belief, this intuition among so many Democrats
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that we were just one thing away from people abandoning Trump.
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If they could just learn this one singular piece of
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information about him, then they would walk away. We spent
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a lot of time screaming about all of those things.
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The way to think about it now, because he just
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did this on the furthest distance possible from the midterms,
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when he will actually have to be held accountable nationally
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for his political misdeeds, is we have to tell a
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story about Trump, right? And not just about Trump, about
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the Republican Party in the Trump era is probably the
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way to think about it. And this needs to be
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a piece of that story. It's not just that we're
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just like, he pardoned these people, they're bad. Look at
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all the terrible things. Look what it means that that's
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going to move things. It's just like over time, right?
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We're not trying to move his numbers today. We're not
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trying to move his numbers tomorrow. We're trying to make
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a case against him that is going to bear fruit
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for us when voters actually vote in Virginia and New
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Jersey and In November and then nationally in the House
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and Senate elections next year.
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One way to think about this that I've been thinking
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about is our kids, you know, in a couple years,
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your kids probably even sooner, are going to like know
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the details of these stories.
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Right.
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Of like what happened. Or they're going to learn about it.
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In school at some point. God willing. Who knows. If
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the curriculum hasn't been. Changed. By. By Donald Trump's administration.
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By the regime. They're going to learn about this. And
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they're going to be like. Okay. So. These people. Beat
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up these cops. This cop had a heart attack. He
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was threatened. And then Donald Trump let them out of prison.
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And then they said that they wanted revenge and that
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they were going to go buy guns. And so what
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did everyone say? What did everyone do? And, you know, well,
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the Republicans pretended that it wasn't happening. The Republicans tried
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to avoid that. Well, what did the Democrats do? Well,
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the Democrats complained about it, but then they said, that's
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certainly not lowering the price of eggs. And like, I'm not,
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of course... I'm only half joking because I will say
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a lot of statements from Democrats about the pardons that
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included the price of eggs in the statement about the pardons.
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I'm like, no, no, guys, that's not that's not the
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time to do that now. I'd like and I feel
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bad because we have suggested that, you know, and I'm like,
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no costs are it right. Like standard of living. That
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is the central challenge. That is the challenge that most
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voters are dealing with. Democrats have to talk about it.
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We have to reckon with it. It's going to drive
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vote choice. That doesn't mean combining it with everything awkwardly.
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Yeah, I think there is a difference between the story
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you're trying to tell and the words you use every
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single day, right? The log line here is that Donald
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Trump failed to lower prices in part because he did
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all these other things instead of that. That's not what
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you say, right? It is reading the stage directions out loud.
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You can scream about the the pardons as we should,
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understanding in the back of your head that the longer
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00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:49.539
game here is going to be around prices. You don't
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have to jam it all into one tweet or one
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skeet or one statement. You can just scream about this
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and then over the course of time, you are making
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a case about all of the things he did that
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people don't like, which are going to have much more
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political weight when he undoubtedly fails on the promises he
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made that they care the most about.
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You can even do a multi-part skeet. Do not thread this.
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It doesn't have to be a thread. It can just be...
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Just make a point.
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Reading the stage directions is just such a good description
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of what so many Democrats have been doing this week
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and maybe the last several years.
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The last decade.
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Like, just stop reading the stage directions, please. It does
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tell me something about how Republicans view the politics of this.
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Mike Johnson gets asked about it and says, we're... We're
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not looking back. We're looking forward. And then three hours later,
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Mike Johnson announces that they're going to investigate the January
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6th investigation that Congress undertook. And the reason why we
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now know, because of reporting from CNN, is that Donald
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Trump asked Mike Johnson to go investigate the January 6th committee.
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And Johnson was like, it's a little looking backwards. I
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don't know. But of course, Johnson has to do whatever
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Donald Trump says, because they are all doing whatever Donald
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Trump says. There's no Republican left. That is trying to
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actively oppose him. We had a few Republicans who said
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they don't agree with the pardons. Good for them. Lisa Murkowski,
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Tom Tillis, some others. But no one is making it.
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None of the Republicans are making a big deal out
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of it.
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Yeah, I mean, there's in their minds and they're not
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incorrect on their short term politics is if you're on
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the wrong side of Trump, you're out of the Republican Party.
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Right. What do you think about the one excuse? you
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hear from some of them as well. Joe Biden did
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all the pardons. So Joe Biden pardoned his family and
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he did those prospective pardons for Fauci and Cheney. And
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so if he's doing pardons and Trump's doing pardons, all
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the pardons are bad.
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I don't love Joe Biden's pardons, particularly the one, well,
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I'm very sympathetic on the Hunter one, the ones for
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the rest of his family, six minutes before he left office,
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I think are much harder to defend.
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I think that's a good move. Yeah.
447
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But if you think that Donald Trump did all of
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these pardons in this way because Joe Biden did some
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pardons earlier that day, then you were too fucking stupid
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to be in politics.
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Then you were in fucking a coma for the last
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year because he talked about it every day on the
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fucking campaign. Yes.
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Of course he was going to do this. Now, Biden
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made probably slightly leavened the political pain that could come
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from this because a lot of the coverage is the
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Biden pardons and the Trump pardons. Look at how presidents
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are now breaking norms left and right. He gave the
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press an opportunity to do its favorite thing, which is
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default to the pox on both your houses narrative and
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that both sides are doing it.
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Once again, Joe Biden in his last move in the
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White House nailed the messaging and communication, you know, because
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he excels at that.
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There is a– I don't love Joe Biden's pardons. There
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is a fundamental difference morally, legally, and every other sense
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between proactively pardoning your family and pardoning 1,600 people who
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assaulted the Capitol, some of whom committed violence against police
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officers or members of right-wing paramilitary organizations because they were
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on your side. Those are not the same thing. They
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can both not be awesome, but one is a lot
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less awesome than the other.
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Yeah, I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't
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think Anthony Fauci tased anyone until they had a heart attack.
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Well, we'll find out soon.
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Pots of America is brought to you by CookUnity. Reset
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487
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can do it in the oven. And it's delicious. And
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there are all these chefs that are like really popular
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the restaurant. I absolutely love CookUnity. Highly, highly recommend. I
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just put my CookUnity order in for this week. I'm
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500
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There's a Spanish omelet and chorizo by Chef Cami Sepulveda.
501
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That should be pretty good. I'm trying the spicy Korean
502
00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:50.039
chicken for the first time by Chef Brandon Kita. There's
503
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also the Chilean empanadas, one of my favorites, by Chef
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Cami Sepulveda as well. Anyway, I love CookUnity. Couldn't recommend
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Crooked or enter code Crooked before checkout. Let's talk about
508
00:27:13.049 --> 00:27:20.710
the immigration moves. We could do a whole show about this.
509
00:27:20.730 --> 00:27:23.029
I imagine we'll probably end up doing that at some point.
510
00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:25.730
We'll talk about this a lot. Just to start, what
511
00:27:25.750 --> 00:27:27.670
do you make of the move so far in immigration?
512
00:27:27.690 --> 00:27:31.269
And what did you make of that directive to prosecutors
513
00:27:31.329 --> 00:27:33.730
to go after any official who tries to stop the deportations?
514
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:38.000
Well, let's start with the directive, which could not be
515
00:27:38.059 --> 00:27:40.440
more ironic in the sense that it is exactly what
516
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.140
Donald Trump has been running against in his mind for
517
00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:46.220
the last four years. It is weaponization of law enforcement
518
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.660
apparatus of the government to scare people into adhering to
519
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:56.750
your policy agenda. If you are someone in a city,
520
00:27:56.930 --> 00:27:59.490
in a blue city or somewhere else, or local law enforcement,
521
00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:03.299
And you have every reason to be afraid that this
522
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.980
Department of Justice will prosecute you. And even if ultimately
523
00:28:06.099 --> 00:28:09.369
you will be found innocent or you won't end up
524
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:11.910
being indicted, you're going to have to spend your own
525
00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:14.849
money and your own resources to defend yourself legally against this.
526
00:28:15.089 --> 00:28:17.369
It's going to upend your life. It's going to potentially
527
00:28:17.410 --> 00:28:21.059
ruin your reputation. And so he is trying to remove
528
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:23.579
all obstacles to anyone who will stand up against him.
529
00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:26.980
I think the other thing that has stood out to
530
00:28:27.019 --> 00:28:30.480
me about all of the immigration moves is Donald Trump's
531
00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:36.650
first term, he basically cut legal immigration, legal immigration, by
532
00:28:36.750 --> 00:28:41.849
more than he reduced illegal immigration. So again, much like
533
00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:44.930
the cost of living and prices, a lot of people
534
00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:47.890
voted for Donald Trump thinking there's a situation at the border.
535
00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:52.019
They need to control the border. There's been an influx
536
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:55.119
of immigrants coming into our cities that we can't care for.
537
00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:57.859
This is a problem. Can we get this under control?
538
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:02.289
And what Donald Trump is saying is actually, I want
539
00:29:02.309 --> 00:29:06.029
to go after legal immigration, birthright citizenship, not just for
540
00:29:06.190 --> 00:29:09.230
people who've just crossed the border and had a child here. No,
541
00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:12.630
this is people who are here on student visas, H-1B visas,
542
00:29:13.569 --> 00:29:17.700
people who are here legally. Now he's suspending the refugee program.
543
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.880
Refugees who we take into this country are the most
544
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.619
vetted people of any immigrant when we take refugees in.
545
00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:29.250
Suspended the refugee program, suspended asylum. People like Steve Bannon
546
00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:31.150
and that wing of the party, they want to cut
547
00:29:31.190 --> 00:29:34.279
legal immigration. Stephen Miller wants to cut legal immigration. They
548
00:29:34.299 --> 00:29:36.809
don't want the H-1B visas, that whole fight we talked about.
549
00:29:37.289 --> 00:29:39.970
So it is hard to look at his immigration process.
550
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:45.059
moves as moves that are about national security, people's safety,
551
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:49.359
anything like that, order in the immigration system, and more
552
00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:55.799
about the Trump administration deciding that they want to define
553
00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:57.569
who is an American and who is not.
554
00:29:59.009 --> 00:30:01.789
Yeah, the national security threat in the minds of Donald
555
00:30:01.809 --> 00:30:05.559
Trump and Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller is a diverse
556
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:10.220
pluralistic society. That's what they're trying to stop, right? And
557
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.980
that anyone who represents change or diversity is a threat.
558
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.720
And that applies to immigration, it applies to their policies
559
00:30:19.220 --> 00:30:21.240
on DEI programs and all of it, and that is
560
00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:23.599
exactly what they're doing. And I think the scary thing
561
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.680
here is a lot of this is warmed over policy
562
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:31.269
from the last time, but they are just implementing it faster,
563
00:30:31.589 --> 00:30:34.670
more aggressively, and seemingly with more precision than before. They
564
00:30:34.730 --> 00:30:36.769
now know how to pull the levers of government in
565
00:30:36.809 --> 00:30:39.190
a way they absolutely did not. It was just a
566
00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:40.849
clusterfuck the first time around. They didn't even know what
567
00:30:40.869 --> 00:30:43.410
they were doing. If you remember the Muslim ban, they
568
00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:45.839
had to rewrite it like five times to get it through.
569
00:30:45.859 --> 00:30:49.220
They made huge errors that delayed implementation. And now they're not,
570
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:50.599
for what we can tell, they're not going to make
571
00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:52.359
as many of those errors, right? They have real people
572
00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:54.980
in charge of things. The entire government is on board
573
00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:57.599
with Trump's immigration plans. And before There was a wing
574
00:30:57.619 --> 00:30:59.440
of the government that was for it, and part of
575
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:03.140
his White House staff was resisting it, including some of
576
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.720
his closest aides. And in this case, everyone is moving
577
00:31:07.069 --> 00:31:09.269
forward to do it, and that's where it's the most scary.
578
00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:13.650
All right, this is what counts as lighter fare. I
579
00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:17.710
was saying, when I got this part, how fun. A
580
00:31:17.769 --> 00:31:21.059
mini-drama erupted on Wednesday when Elon Musk went on the
581
00:31:21.099 --> 00:31:24.420
attack against a $ 500 billion AI initiative that Trump had
582
00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:26.680
announced the day before in the Roosevelt Room. With the
583
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:31.970
SoftBank CEO, billionaire Trump donor Larry Ellison, and Elon frenemy
584
00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:36.430
Sam Altman of OpenAI, Elon responded on X, quote, they
585
00:31:36.470 --> 00:31:39.210
don't have the money. And then Sam and Elon got
586
00:31:39.250 --> 00:31:42.130
in a bit of a slap fight online. What's going
587
00:31:42.190 --> 00:31:46.049
on here? Why is Elon Musk mad about the artificial
588
00:31:46.089 --> 00:31:48.990
intelligence initiative announced by his pal Donald Trump and all
589
00:31:49.029 --> 00:31:50.539
those other billionaires? I thought he loves AI.
590
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.299
He does love AI, I think, but he hates Sam
591
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:58.059
Altman more than he loves AI, right? Elon was on
592
00:31:58.099 --> 00:31:58.420
the board.
593
00:31:58.440 --> 00:31:59.869
He also loves his AI.
594
00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.609
Yes, yes, which we're going to get to, right? In
595
00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:05.349
the big tech world, in this club of billionaires, it's
596
00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.329
all about money, but there is a high school cafeteria
597
00:32:09.349 --> 00:32:10.309
element to this.
598
00:32:10.609 --> 00:32:13.059
Yeah, it's a little dick swinging contest.
599
00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:13.230
Yeah.
600
00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:17.099
That's what it is.
601
00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:19.720
All the people at the outcast table in the high
602
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:21.819
school cafeteria now are fighting over being at the cool
603
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:22.299
kid's table.
604
00:32:23.609 --> 00:32:26.990
Yeah. Just keep in mind, Donald Trump is the cool kid. Yeah.
605
00:32:27.109 --> 00:32:28.109
What a fucking road we're in.
606
00:32:29.309 --> 00:32:34.089
But Elon and Sam Altman founded OpenAI together. Elon left
607
00:32:34.150 --> 00:32:37.450
it in dispute about its direction. Elon then started a
608
00:32:38.450 --> 00:32:42.490
competing AI model, Grok, which is part of Twitter. He–
609
00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:46.400
does not like the people involved. He did not, I imagine,
610
00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:48.819
did not like being on that stage because he said
611
00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:51.039
Twitter does not have the money to be, or X
612
00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:52.640
does not have the money to participate in such an
613
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:56.180
endeavor like OpenAI and the others do. And so he
614
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:58.279
just did what he always did, which is say what
615
00:32:58.319 --> 00:32:59.720
was at the top of his mind without really thinking
616
00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:00.019
about it.
617
00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:07.109
It's also watching Sam Altman, who in 2021 was tweeting,
618
00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:11.109
thank you, Reid Hoffman, for everything you've done to help
619
00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:14.480
defeat Donald Trump. And we're so lucky he's not in
620
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.119
the White House anymore. We've defeated Donald Trump. This is great.
621
00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:22.119
He was resistance-pilled at one point. He was tweeting polls
622
00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:27.160
in 2017 like, what should we call him? Dangerous Donald? Like,
623
00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:30.309
this is Sam Altman. And then just yesterday or this week,
624
00:33:31.230 --> 00:33:33.690
he posted on X, wow, you know, I think I
625
00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:35.970
was wrong about Donald Trump. And now that I've met
626
00:33:36.009 --> 00:33:38.529
him in person, I'm really excited about what he's going
627
00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:41.089
to do for the country. Give me a fucking break, man.
628
00:33:41.130 --> 00:33:44.190
I mean, I met Sam Altman in 2017 at a
629
00:33:44.269 --> 00:33:48.450
series of meetings about trying to bring together political folks
630
00:33:48.490 --> 00:33:50.829
and tech folks on how to defeat Donald Trump and
631
00:33:50.849 --> 00:33:54.690
fight back against MAGA extremism. And now he's on stage.
632
00:33:54.769 --> 00:33:55.880
It's giving him billions of dollars.
633
00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:00.180
Now that he's free of your brainwashing, Dan, your liberal
634
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.900
propaganda that you were spouting at him. Now, thank God
635
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:05.759
he got to meet Mr. Trump so he could see
636
00:34:05.819 --> 00:34:08.679
firsthand how great he is. So is Elon like now
637
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.670
the most powerful person? In government, and I say in
638
00:34:11.710 --> 00:34:15.070
government because he's got a White House email, and he's
639
00:34:15.110 --> 00:34:17.679
apparently getting a West Wing office. He was originally going
640
00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.340
to be in the EEOB, Old Executive Office Building. That's
641
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.659
the one next to the West Wing because there's not
642
00:34:22.940 --> 00:34:24.880
a ton of West Wing offices, but Elon was not
643
00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:26.739
going to have that. Now he's in the West Wing
644
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.800
with his buddies. He pushed Vivek Ramaswamy out of Doge.
645
00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:35.110
Vivek's now running for governor because apparently Elon didn't like
646
00:34:35.170 --> 00:34:39.590
his weird thread about Saved by the Bell and you know,
647
00:34:39.860 --> 00:34:43.989
we need to have more screeches and fewer zacks and
648
00:34:44.409 --> 00:34:46.010
all that kind of stuff, which, you know, point to
649
00:34:46.090 --> 00:34:46.670
Elon on that.
650
00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:50.829
Yeah. That was an understanding of the plot of State
651
00:34:50.849 --> 00:34:51.230
by the Bell.
652
00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:55.389
Correct. Correct. But so like, is Elon the most powerful
653
00:34:55.429 --> 00:34:57.329
person right now? Steve Bannon was taking shots at him
654
00:34:57.389 --> 00:35:00.389
for this open AI thing, the fight with Sam Altman.
655
00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:02.230
He was like, Donald Trump needs to sit him down.
656
00:35:02.769 --> 00:35:05.050
I can't believe that he's just out there and he's
657
00:35:05.070 --> 00:35:07.750
been brought into government. Now he's criticizing the president, you know,
658
00:35:07.769 --> 00:35:09.730
because Bannon hates him. But What do you think of
659
00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:10.170
this whole thing?
660
00:35:10.289 --> 00:35:12.110
Yeah, I think he is the most powerful person in
661
00:35:12.130 --> 00:35:13.849
government by far and one of the most powerful people
662
00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:17.510
in the world because Donald Trump has limited leverage over
663
00:35:17.550 --> 00:35:19.820
him compared to everyone else, right? Anyone else can kick
664
00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:23.039
out of government. He can support a primary challenge against them.
665
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.019
He can use his Twitter account or his Truth Social
666
00:35:26.059 --> 00:35:29.239
account to trash their reputation and send a mob of
667
00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:32.929
people after him. Elon has more money than Trump. He
668
00:35:32.969 --> 00:35:36.650
doesn't need Trump per se. And he also has a
669
00:35:36.650 --> 00:35:40.840
very vicious, aggressive, very large online mob of people who
670
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.820
support him. And so you can see it. Donald Trump
671
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:46.719
treads lightly around Elon in a way he does not
672
00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:48.420
tread lightly around anyone else we've ever seen.
673
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.860
Yeah. I wonder how long it'll last. So more from
674
00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:55.360
the Hannity interview. They talked about a lot of other
675
00:35:55.389 --> 00:35:58.719
stuff besides January 6th. I think it's safe to say
676
00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:01.369
that both men were really feeling it. They were really
677
00:36:01.409 --> 00:36:02.610
happy to be together. Let's listen.
678
00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:06.289
After four long years, President Donald Trump is back where
679
00:36:06.329 --> 00:36:09.289
he belongs. He is in the Oval Office. Joe Biden
680
00:36:09.550 --> 00:36:17.099
has very bad advisors. Somebody advised Joe Biden to give
681
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.159
pardons to everybody but him. They wanted to take care
682
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:21.260
of him. Yeah, but you don't.
683
00:36:21.300 --> 00:36:22.000
They wanted to.
684
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.820
I don't care. This guy went around giving everybody pardons.
685
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.619
And you know, the funny thing, maybe the sad thing,
686
00:36:29.619 --> 00:36:34.869
is he didn't give himself a pardon. And if you
687
00:36:34.909 --> 00:36:36.750
look at it, it all had to do with him.
688
00:36:37.050 --> 00:36:39.699
And I heard Schiff went to him and just begged
689
00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:41.679
him for a pardon because Schiff is a crook.
690
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:43.980
I will say that. So I don't know if you
691
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.599
watch the whole interview, but that clip, he has like
692
00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:50.760
a sort of menacing tone, but is a little vague
693
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.079
on investigating Biden or Schiff. But at one point, you know,
694
00:36:56.059 --> 00:36:59.699
Hannity asks him about just sort of, you know, vengeance
695
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:04.030
in general and retribution and all that. And he gets
696
00:37:04.170 --> 00:37:06.349
really angry and really dark. And it's like, I went
697
00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:08.639
through hell these last four years. And, you know, maybe
698
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:13.039
people need to go through that. Like, it was, you know,
699
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.179
we are on a watch what he does, not just
700
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:20.739
what he says kind of path here. But I hear
701
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.619
something like that. I left that interview thinking, oh, man,
702
00:37:23.860 --> 00:37:26.599
he really wants to do these investigations. Yeah, 100%.
703
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.789
I mean, he implicit is doing a lot of work here,
704
00:37:29.849 --> 00:37:35.909
but he threatened Biden repeatedly, right? Seems weird, seems unfortunate
705
00:37:35.929 --> 00:37:37.070
he didn't pardon himself.
706
00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:40.389
Kind of funny, kind of sad. Yeah, maybe it's sad,
707
00:37:40.409 --> 00:37:40.989
maybe it's funny.
708
00:37:41.909 --> 00:37:44.750
And I mean, there is this, you and I, based
709
00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:48.449
on a series of misbegotten professional decisions, are forced to
710
00:37:48.469 --> 00:37:51.469
watch all of the Trump-Hannity interviews over the last near decade.
711
00:37:52.429 --> 00:37:55.300
And there was always this moment where he sees Trump
712
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:56.860
about to light himself on fire and he tries to
713
00:37:56.900 --> 00:38:01.659
use gentle parroting techniques to shift the interview onto safer territory.
714
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:01.800
Right.
715
00:38:02.050 --> 00:38:03.570
And so you hear him in that clip being like,
716
00:38:03.590 --> 00:38:05.570
I want to get to the economy. Seriously, the economy,
717
00:38:05.590 --> 00:38:08.420
high prices. And Trump's like, I don't care. I want
718
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:10.199
to talk about prosecuting my opponents.
719
00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:10.639
Yeah.
720
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.380
Yeah, that's what we got. There was also, by the way,
721
00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:17.059
a very long discourse about the fires in LA and
722
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:20.860
smelt and turning the valve on in Northern California so
723
00:38:20.889 --> 00:38:26.869
that the water flows down to Los Angeles. That's the
724
00:38:26.929 --> 00:38:30.369
old days we would have played that. But if you
725
00:38:30.409 --> 00:38:33.210
want to laugh or maybe you'll cry, you know, go
726
00:38:33.230 --> 00:38:34.750
take a listen to that. And we'll probably hear it
727
00:38:34.789 --> 00:38:38.280
again when he goes to Los Angeles on Friday.
728
00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:40.619
I'll tell you when we cry, which is when he
729
00:38:40.659 --> 00:38:45.679
conditions a fire aid to California based on sending the
730
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:48.139
water to L.A. when the water doesn't go to L.A.
731
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:52.179
Water doesn't go to L.A. Doesn't go to L.A. Doesn't
732
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:56.059
know what he's talking about. He's the fish guy. They're
733
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:58.000
trying to save the fish and the fish. How are
734
00:38:58.019 --> 00:39:00.860
we even saving the fish? Because don't fish need water?
735
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.389
I mean, it's like, it's obviously absurd. But when you
736
00:39:04.429 --> 00:39:07.409
say something like that, like you see why people believe them.
737
00:39:07.789 --> 00:39:09.150
It's like, well, you fish do need water.
738
00:39:10.010 --> 00:39:12.250
Yeah, it does. It does make sense that there'd be
739
00:39:12.269 --> 00:39:15.110
a valve in Northern California that you open. It's just
740
00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:15.610
a button.
741
00:39:15.690 --> 00:39:18.150
It's just, Elon just has to push one button and
742
00:39:18.170 --> 00:39:18.730
the water.
743
00:39:18.530 --> 00:39:20.110
Goes all the way down. They won't push it because
744
00:39:20.179 --> 00:39:30.590
it might hurt the smell. Might hurt the smell. Pots
745
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shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash crooked to get
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free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash crooked. Donald Trump
768
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has done a lot of public appearances since the inauguration.
769
00:40:51.610 --> 00:40:55.679
We hear Donald Trump multiple times a day. Is that strategy?
770
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.579
Is that just what he wants? Because he wants to
771
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.059
be the country's host for the next four years? Or
772
00:41:02.179 --> 00:41:04.239
is there any risk to that for him? I guess
773
00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:06.809
there's no risk to anything because he's fucking He's immune.
774
00:41:06.849 --> 00:41:09.110
He's president. That's it. He wins.
775
00:41:09.349 --> 00:41:10.949
He's not running for– he doesn't have to run again
776
00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:13.480
and he's immune for prosecution. So, yeah, there's very little risk.
777
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:13.940
Yeah.
778
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:16.559
Tough to keep asking what the political damage for Trump is.
779
00:41:17.460 --> 00:41:20.860
I guess just so everyone knows, you know, a weakened Trump,
780
00:41:21.099 --> 00:41:25.760
a trumpet back at lower 40%, 30%, whatever, you know,
781
00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:28.900
that bodes poorly for the midterms for Republicans. And I
782
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:30.619
think probably if it keeps up for four years, the
783
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.800
same is true for 2028. But long way to go
784
00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:34.090
until we get there. So, go ahead.
785
00:41:35.349 --> 00:41:39.510
It's– Is it a strategy? No, in the sense that
786
00:41:39.550 --> 00:41:41.590
Donald Trump has always wanted to be this way. He
787
00:41:41.610 --> 00:41:43.809
wants to be the center of attention at all times, right?
788
00:41:44.869 --> 00:41:48.699
In tabloids, putting his name on everything, hosting a reality show.
789
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:51.159
But it does also happen to be, and this is
790
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.139
why he's president for the second time in three elections,
791
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:57.179
is that sort of approach is also the way you
792
00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.679
should communicate in this media age, is you have to
793
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:03.800
be omnipresent. You have to be everywhere all at once.
794
00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:06.289
You have to do everything. Never stop talking. You can't
795
00:42:06.429 --> 00:42:10.369
abide by this philosophy that a lot of Democrats will
796
00:42:10.389 --> 00:42:13.250
abide by, which is the news of the day is
797
00:42:13.309 --> 00:42:16.369
the EOs. So once I've done the EOs, I should
798
00:42:16.409 --> 00:42:19.690
stop talking until tomorrow, and then we'll have another news
799
00:42:19.710 --> 00:42:21.150
of the day. That's not how the world works anymore.
800
00:42:21.409 --> 00:42:25.269
It's nonstop, always talking, always be there, command as much
801
00:42:25.329 --> 00:42:28.840
attention as you possibly can. And that means that the
802
00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:30.519
people who don't pay a lot of attention have a
803
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.900
greater chance of hearing you if you're always talking. But
804
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:35.179
it also means, this is very key for Trump, That
805
00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:37.360
if you're always talking, if you say something wrong, if
806
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.880
you make a mistake, it hurts a lot less. And
807
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:45.349
so this is the approach, right? It is exhausting. It
808
00:42:45.389 --> 00:42:48.929
hurts my brain. It makes doing this podcast thoroughly like
809
00:42:48.949 --> 00:42:51.250
being on a hamster wheel of terribleness at all times.
810
00:42:51.969 --> 00:42:55.429
But that is how Democrats– that's how everyone should communicate
811
00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:56.989
in this day and age. They should overcommunicate. They should
812
00:42:57.010 --> 00:42:59.679
be out there all the time. And that was not
813
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:04.420
the approach that Joe Biden used for sure. Certainly not
814
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.840
the approach that Kamala Harris used, although she did exponentially
815
00:43:06.860 --> 00:43:09.900
more than Joe Biden. But you have to be, we
816
00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:14.900
have to sort of adopt not the messaging, not the behavior,
817
00:43:15.019 --> 00:43:18.519
but the conceptual understanding of messaging that Trump is employing here.
818
00:43:19.699 --> 00:43:21.900
Trump didn't said so much shit this week. It was
819
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.780
easy to forget that he also is trying to get
820
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.469
a cabinet confirmed. So far, the only one who's gotten
821
00:43:27.489 --> 00:43:30.750
through the Senate, who's officially confirmed as Secretary of State
822
00:43:30.809 --> 00:43:33.840
Marco Rubio. Who, by the way, has planned a trip
823
00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:38.260
to Panama, Dan. So I guess that canal thing is
824
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:40.650
no joke. That's going to be his first trip as
825
00:43:40.690 --> 00:43:44.250
Secretary of State. Marco's going to Panama. You think he's
826
00:43:44.269 --> 00:43:46.309
excited about that? You think there's going to be a
827
00:43:46.349 --> 00:43:48.969
moment on that trip where Marco Rubio thinks of himself like,
828
00:43:49.570 --> 00:43:51.570
how the fuck did I get here? On one hand,
829
00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:54.530
I'm Secretary of State. On the other, it's for Donald
830
00:43:54.550 --> 00:43:56.550
Trump and he sent me on a mission to take
831
00:43:56.610 --> 00:43:57.579
back the Panama Canal.
832
00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:03.559
I mean, we are, the world is on fire in
833
00:44:03.659 --> 00:44:07.059
multiple places right now. And the top priority, the first
834
00:44:07.099 --> 00:44:09.179
thing New Secretary of State is going to do is
835
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.889
to go to try to take back a canal for
836
00:44:11.949 --> 00:44:13.820
reasons that are entirely made up.
837
00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:14.869
Made up.
838
00:44:15.050 --> 00:44:16.570
As we went through on this podcast two days ago.
839
00:44:17.130 --> 00:44:19.530
Because Donald Trump is stuck in the 80s and no
840
00:44:19.570 --> 00:44:22.889
one wants to tell him otherwise. So that's Marco. DOD
841
00:44:22.909 --> 00:44:25.139
nominee Pete Hegseth made it out of the Armed Services
842
00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:27.320
Committee on a party line vote on Monday. But on Tuesday,
843
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.760
the committee got a sworn statement from his former sister-in-law,
844
00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:34.489
detailing abusive and scary behavior toward the woman's sister, Hegseth's
845
00:44:34.530 --> 00:44:37.429
former wife, including that she once hid in a closet
846
00:44:37.449 --> 00:44:38.949
to get away from him and then she had to
847
00:44:39.010 --> 00:44:42.590
develop an escape plan. Fox News reported that Mitch McConnell,
848
00:44:42.829 --> 00:44:46.170
Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins may all be planning to
849
00:44:46.230 --> 00:44:49.309
vote against Hegseth, in which case J.D. Vance would have
850
00:44:49.329 --> 00:44:52.829
to cast the tie-breaking vote, possibly in a Friday evening vote.
851
00:44:53.750 --> 00:44:56.130
No word on whether Pam Bondi or Kash Patel will
852
00:44:56.150 --> 00:44:58.289
have any trouble getting confirmed now that Trump has basically
853
00:44:58.780 --> 00:45:02.400
Shut down the Justice Department's largest ever investigation into right-wing
854
00:45:02.420 --> 00:45:07.090
domestic terrorism. That's the January 6th rioters. And also suggested
855
00:45:07.130 --> 00:45:10.690
that he wants the government to investigate his opponents. RFK Jr.
856
00:45:10.809 --> 00:45:13.349
is apparently telling Republican senators that he's changed his mind
857
00:45:13.389 --> 00:45:15.949
on the polio vaccine and others and that he's not
858
00:45:15.989 --> 00:45:18.659
trying to limit access to inoculations. So there's some good
859
00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.440
news for your day. Some good news for your Friday.
860
00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.500
Go into the weekend with that. But apparently he'll continue
861
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.210
to make money. from his involvement in a lawsuit against
862
00:45:27.269 --> 00:45:30.760
Merck over the HPV vaccine, which he would now be overseeing.
863
00:45:30.889 --> 00:45:34.139
So that's lovely. He's going to get a piece for him, too.
864
00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:36.980
You know, everyone's got their piece. Meanwhile, one nominee who
865
00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:40.500
may actually be in trouble, Tulsi Gabbard. One Republican senator
866
00:45:40.539 --> 00:45:43.860
just told Semaphore, quote, there are very serious concerns by
867
00:45:43.909 --> 00:45:47.489
enough members to put her nomination in jeopardy. What do
868
00:45:47.510 --> 00:45:49.469
you think, Dan? Is the Senate going to reject any
869
00:45:49.510 --> 00:45:50.090
of these yahoos?
870
00:45:50.610 --> 00:45:51.449
Maybe Tulsi Gabbard.
871
00:45:51.710 --> 00:45:51.989
Maybe. Maybe.
872
00:45:52.349 --> 00:45:55.329
I wouldn't bet on it, but it does seem possible
873
00:45:55.349 --> 00:45:56.849
there was some reporting she wouldn't get out of committee.
874
00:45:57.449 --> 00:45:59.590
And they're most mad at her, as it turns out,
875
00:45:59.710 --> 00:46:02.590
for suggesting a pardon for Edward Snowden, which seems to
876
00:46:02.630 --> 00:46:05.940
be low on the list of reasons why she should
877
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:06.579
not have this job.
878
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:07.119
Wow.
879
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:13.340
I think they're also– she's not as right-wing on sort
880
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.119
of surveillance issues. And I think some of them are
881
00:46:17.139 --> 00:46:17.920
a little worried about that.
882
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:20.619
Worried that she's going to over or under surveil?
883
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:26.079
Under surveil. Oh. You can't be under surveilling in the
884
00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:26.940
Trump administration.
885
00:46:27.019 --> 00:46:29.179
You've got to be over surveilling the right people.
886
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:34.280
Yeah, exactly. Very against surveillance on their people, very pro-surveillance
887
00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.159
on everyone else. And then, of course, she met with
888
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:41.070
Assad a couple times, and they're a little concerned about that.
889
00:46:42.139 --> 00:46:45.059
So we'll see about Tulsi. It is wild that Hegseth,
890
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:47.800
they can't get one more Republican to take, because if
891
00:46:47.820 --> 00:46:49.800
they have three, they can't get one more Republican to
892
00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:51.519
take down Hegseth.
893
00:46:51.980 --> 00:46:56.210
The drama is whether he's going to pass easily or J.D.
894
00:46:56.250 --> 00:46:58.869
Vance is going to have to remind America he exists
895
00:46:59.010 --> 00:47:00.010
and show up to break the tie.
896
00:47:00.750 --> 00:47:02.849
Yeah, that's what we're going with. So it looks like
897
00:47:02.889 --> 00:47:04.690
Trump's going to get his cabinet. And it seems like
898
00:47:04.869 --> 00:47:07.469
John Thune is going to keep the Senate in session
899
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:12.170
basically until all of the nominees are confirmed. So that's
900
00:47:12.190 --> 00:47:15.150
what we're looking at there. Unsurprisingly, Trump's opponents have not
901
00:47:15.170 --> 00:47:17.730
been getting a ton of airtime this week. One moment
902
00:47:17.750 --> 00:47:20.550
that did break through, though, was this one from the
903
00:47:20.590 --> 00:47:23.239
prayer service at the National Cathedral on Tuesday.
904
00:47:24.099 --> 00:47:28.460
In the name of our God, I ask you to
905
00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:32.920
have mercy upon the people in our country who are
906
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:42.630
scared now. There are gay, lesbian, and transgender children in Democratic, Republican,
907
00:47:42.730 --> 00:47:49.630
and independent families, some who fear for their lives. And
908
00:47:49.650 --> 00:47:54.619
the people, the people who pick our crops and clean
909
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:58.199
our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meatpacking plants,
910
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.900
who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and
911
00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:05.760
work the night shifts in hospitals, they may not be
912
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:12.179
citizens or have the proper documentation But the vast majority
913
00:48:12.219 --> 00:48:17.449
of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are
914
00:48:17.489 --> 00:48:18.090
good neighbors.
915
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:23.409
That, of course, was Bishop Marion Buddy. She is the
916
00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:27.369
head bishop in Washington, D.C., of the Episcopal Church. Trump
917
00:48:28.389 --> 00:48:30.090
and the rest of the Republicans spent the rest of
918
00:48:30.130 --> 00:48:34.429
the week attacking her for what she said. Not just disagreeing,
919
00:48:34.949 --> 00:48:38.889
saying that it was despicable. One Republican congressman said, I
920
00:48:38.889 --> 00:48:40.190
don't know if it was a joke or not, said
921
00:48:40.210 --> 00:48:43.690
that she should be on the deportation list. Trump has
922
00:48:43.730 --> 00:48:48.090
demanded an apology from her. They've called her a liar.
923
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:54.099
Mike Johnson, very religious man, he posted about her that
924
00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:57.519
it was despicable. White House called her despicable. What did
925
00:48:57.539 --> 00:48:58.800
you make of that moment at the prayer service?
926
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:02.239
It was incredibly powerful. Not just what she said, but
927
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:04.480
the fact that she said it to Trump's face, particularly
928
00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:09.539
in an environment where So many of Trump's longtime opponents
929
00:49:09.739 --> 00:49:12.989
are bending over backwards to kiss his ass in the
930
00:49:13.010 --> 00:49:16.679
most debasing way possible. And so to have someone who
931
00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:18.360
actually is not willing just to say it, but to
932
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.880
say it to his face. in a moment when people
933
00:49:20.900 --> 00:49:22.780
are listening was powerful and courageous.
934
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:29.920
I also think it is a model for other leaders
935
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.719
to talk about Trump because she, like they're all saying,
936
00:49:33.500 --> 00:49:36.739
you know, she's so division. And I've just looked at
937
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:41.289
what Mike Johnson actually says. her, her hateful radical ideology.
938
00:49:41.769 --> 00:49:44.590
That's what she uses an opportunity to push that. And
939
00:49:44.630 --> 00:49:47.409
then anyone who listens to the clip, like go listen
940
00:49:47.429 --> 00:49:49.150
to the clip, go listen to the whole thing. She
941
00:49:49.250 --> 00:49:54.829
could not have been more respectful of Donald Trump and Republicans.
942
00:49:55.070 --> 00:49:57.550
She could not have been more willing to extend a
943
00:49:57.610 --> 00:50:01.199
hand and to try to just, she's just trying to
944
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:07.030
lodge her complaint in the most respectful way possible. And
945
00:50:07.050 --> 00:50:13.510
I do think there is additional power in criticizing Trump
946
00:50:13.550 --> 00:50:16.510
and criticizing what he's doing in a way where she
947
00:50:16.550 --> 00:50:19.510
didn't really care in that moment if Donald Trump was
948
00:50:19.530 --> 00:50:21.239
going to get mad at her. But what she was
949
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:23.559
thinking about is how is this message, how is what
950
00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:26.920
I'm saying in this criticism going to land even with
951
00:50:26.980 --> 00:50:30.619
people who may not agree with me? And that's not
952
00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:33.260
to say that she was being like super political and
953
00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:37.800
thinking of message strategy like we do, but she's She's clergy,
954
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:40.900
and she thinks about it from a human perspective. And
955
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:44.980
she spoke in a way that normal humans would speak
956
00:50:45.019 --> 00:50:47.179
to each other when you're trying to convince someone who
957
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:50.139
may not agree with you in a respectful way, in
958
00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:53.860
a way that shows grace. And I think it's something— and
959
00:50:53.429 --> 00:50:56.650
even in her interviews afterwards, she had some— you know, all
960
00:50:56.690 --> 00:50:59.829
these reporters, all these parties kept setting her up to, like,
961
00:50:59.869 --> 00:51:02.550
take another shot at Donald Trump or really attack— and she
962
00:51:02.570 --> 00:51:04.889
just— she wouldn't do it, you know, because she's like, this
963
00:51:04.949 --> 00:51:09.530
is— She said, I think on a– Rachel Maddow interviewed her.
964
00:51:10.510 --> 00:51:13.829
And she said, look, I just– I wanted to say
965
00:51:13.869 --> 00:51:16.230
it this way because I think this is a moment
966
00:51:16.250 --> 00:51:18.769
to try to like bring the country together. And I
967
00:51:18.789 --> 00:51:21.329
don't think this is a moment to further inflame divisions.
968
00:51:21.969 --> 00:51:25.250
But these voices weren't being heard and I needed to
969
00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:27.170
say something. And I just– I thought that was great.
970
00:51:27.429 --> 00:51:30.349
It was very– you hit on the– I think it's
971
00:51:30.769 --> 00:51:35.550
like the instructive part of this for Democrats is the–
972
00:51:35.789 --> 00:51:39.170
core of her remarks is that she believes that despite
973
00:51:39.230 --> 00:51:42.969
this election, despite whom we just elected, that this is
974
00:51:43.010 --> 00:51:46.929
a country of people who care about each other, who
975
00:51:47.110 --> 00:51:49.829
want to come together and want to do the right thing,
976
00:51:49.889 --> 00:51:51.639
particularly for America's most vulnerable people.
977
00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:54.719
And- That we take care of each other.
978
00:51:54.739 --> 00:51:55.679
We take care of each other, right?
979
00:51:55.860 --> 00:51:57.360
We've all been strangers here at one point.
980
00:51:57.820 --> 00:52:00.679
And we don't want to be, try to make ourselves
981
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:03.219
be a lesser version of Trump, right? Sort of a
982
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:05.340
paler shade of orange, if you will. What we want
983
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.969
to do is we want to speak to what, to
984
00:52:07.989 --> 00:52:09.829
the opposite of Trump. And that, and that's what she did.
985
00:52:10.110 --> 00:52:10.289
Right.
986
00:52:10.349 --> 00:52:12.630
And I think, and I do, it didn't come to
987
00:52:12.789 --> 00:52:16.150
fruition in this election, but I have continued to believe
988
00:52:16.170 --> 00:52:18.130
ever since Trump first came down that escalator and won
989
00:52:18.150 --> 00:52:21.929
that election, that the, the antidote to that in the
990
00:52:21.969 --> 00:52:25.500
longterm in politics is to get back to speaking to
991
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:28.559
hope and optimism and unity and the idea that we
992
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:29.219
care about each other.
993
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:30.460
Yeah.
994
00:52:30.619 --> 00:52:35.260
Decency. What else have you seen? What are your overall
995
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:39.030
thoughts on how Democrats have responded to this week?
996
00:52:39.989 --> 00:52:40.969
Man, that's a loaded question.
997
00:52:43.090 --> 00:52:46.090
I've been here trying to answer it all week here.
998
00:52:46.789 --> 00:52:48.090
I'm getting asked it all the time on all these
999
00:52:48.130 --> 00:52:48.989
press interviews.
1000
00:52:49.030 --> 00:52:50.570
That is your personal choice, my friend.
1001
00:52:52.630 --> 00:52:55.230
You're wise to keep your head underwater there.
1002
00:52:55.369 --> 00:52:57.949
Look, I think to be fair to Democrats, it is
1003
00:52:57.989 --> 00:53:00.760
impossible to ask them in a moment in which we
1004
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:04.849
are thoroughly leaderless, to have the fully formed response to
1005
00:53:04.889 --> 00:53:08.110
Trump in the first 72 hours of his presidency. What
1006
00:53:08.170 --> 00:53:11.530
I worry about in some of the responses to date
1007
00:53:12.590 --> 00:53:17.630
is that we are unwilling to truly reckon with this election, right?
1008
00:53:17.670 --> 00:53:19.889
We can tell ourselves a story that the election was
1009
00:53:19.949 --> 00:53:22.800
closer than sort of the narrative, and that is true
1010
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:25.820
in one sense. But it's also true, and more importantly,
1011
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:29.380
that we have bled massively with the most core parts
1012
00:53:29.420 --> 00:53:33.409
of our coalition, right? Latino voters, black voters, young people.
1013
00:53:34.070 --> 00:53:36.570
And that is an ongoing trend, right? If you look
1014
00:53:36.590 --> 00:53:39.679
at the Latino numbers, it's massive over the last four years.
1015
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:44.400
And it just feels like the same people are doing
1016
00:53:44.420 --> 00:53:47.559
the same things they were doing six months ago, as
1017
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:53.500
opposed to really rethinking how we communicate, how we speak, right?
1018
00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:56.119
Not our message. What are the words that come out
1019
00:53:56.139 --> 00:53:58.199
of our mouth? How do we sound different? What are
1020
00:53:58.219 --> 00:54:02.400
we going to do that's different than before? And it just,
1021
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:04.280
and I see that, I see that a little bit
1022
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:06.110
in the way the DNC race is playing out is
1023
00:54:06.170 --> 00:54:09.349
that people really, we want the easy way out. What
1024
00:54:09.369 --> 00:54:14.489
we want to do is kind of get lucky, right?
1025
00:54:14.530 --> 00:54:16.289
And that we're going to survive this period. And then
1026
00:54:16.349 --> 00:54:18.710
Trump's going to be unpopular. It's kind of an election.
1027
00:54:18.730 --> 00:54:20.920
Maybe we'll, we can, we can win it kind of
1028
00:54:20.940 --> 00:54:23.960
like we won 2020, but that, but that doesn't solve
1029
00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.940
our bigger problem. And I would, I don't even want
1030
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:31.690
to depress people, but Take a look at what the
1031
00:54:31.690 --> 00:54:33.849
2032 electoral map is going to look like. And once
1032
00:54:33.869 --> 00:54:35.949
you do that, you're going to realize that we have
1033
00:54:36.829 --> 00:54:40.690
massive work to do to reconfigure our coalition. And we
1034
00:54:40.730 --> 00:54:42.929
have to be willing to ask really hard questions. And
1035
00:54:42.949 --> 00:54:45.070
I'm not convinced that enough people in the party are
1036
00:54:45.090 --> 00:54:46.269
willing to ask those questions right now.
1037
00:54:46.489 --> 00:54:48.769
And when you say the 2032 electoral map, you mean
1038
00:54:48.829 --> 00:54:52.030
that some of the blue states could lose electoral votes
1039
00:54:52.090 --> 00:54:54.420
because of the new census by then, because blue states
1040
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.909
are losing people to red states. I'm still... like you,
1041
00:54:59.010 --> 00:55:02.250
I'm still giving people time to sort of get their
1042
00:55:02.309 --> 00:55:05.489
sea legs in the new... And look, we had to
1043
00:55:05.570 --> 00:55:08.289
wait to see how extreme he would be in the
1044
00:55:08.309 --> 00:55:12.750
first week, whether he'd actually follow through. I mean, on
1045
00:55:12.789 --> 00:55:15.369
this very podcast, on our Tuesday show, I think I
1046
00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:17.320
was saying, oh, we've tried resistance politics. We should try
1047
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:20.099
normal politics. And here's the price of a... I did
1048
00:55:20.139 --> 00:55:24.539
the whole thing. And then he goes and pardons these
1049
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:27.280
violent offenders and And all the other shit, and you're like,
1050
00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:30.780
you just, you know, you've got to adapt to and
1051
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:32.659
react to him in some ways, right? Like, that is
1052
00:55:32.900 --> 00:55:35.760
just part of dealing with Donald Trump. He does something,
1053
00:55:36.380 --> 00:55:40.699
and we often have to react. We try not to overreact, but, like,
1054
00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:43.769
he's the president. He commands a lot of power right now, right?
1055
00:55:44.469 --> 00:55:46.110
And so, you know, a lot of Democrats are just
1056
00:55:46.130 --> 00:55:49.449
finding their sea legs. I get that. But I have
1057
00:55:49.489 --> 00:55:52.980
not seen anything this week, right? Like, I don't— You know,
1058
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:55.039
I saw Chris Murphy on the floor talking about the pardons,
1059
00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:57.820
and I think he was very passionate. He's someone who
1060
00:55:57.860 --> 00:56:01.670
talks like a human. AOC is out there. She's talking
1061
00:56:01.710 --> 00:56:05.610
like a human. I just don't see a lot else
1062
00:56:05.989 --> 00:56:08.809
from Democrats right now. People who are just, you know,
1063
00:56:09.449 --> 00:56:11.309
putting all the polling down for a second, put the
1064
00:56:11.349 --> 00:56:14.929
stage directions down. Just tell us how you feel. It's
1065
00:56:14.969 --> 00:56:17.969
the first week, right? You don't have to think about
1066
00:56:18.289 --> 00:56:21.469
what polls well right now. It's the first week. Tell
1067
00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:22.469
us how you feel about this.
1068
00:56:23.289 --> 00:56:26.800
I think there's obviously a messaging problem, but even take
1069
00:56:27.010 --> 00:56:29.519
the Chris Murphy example, right? Great speech. He lived on
1070
00:56:29.539 --> 00:56:30.360
the floor of the Senate.
1071
00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:31.559
Yeah, right.
1072
00:56:32.059 --> 00:56:33.360
Yeah.
1073
00:56:33.420 --> 00:56:33.599
Right.
1074
00:56:33.800 --> 00:56:34.659
You saw that.
1075
00:56:35.780 --> 00:56:39.199
Yeah, because I've now made a Twitter list of Democratic
1076
00:56:39.219 --> 00:56:42.369
politicians just so I could see what they're all talking about.
1077
00:56:42.889 --> 00:56:44.250
And that was the only one that caught my eye
1078
00:56:44.309 --> 00:56:45.050
in that long list.
1079
00:56:45.349 --> 00:56:48.469
And part of it is hard. Other than the example
1080
00:56:48.489 --> 00:56:49.929
of AOC who did a lot of her stuff on
1081
00:56:49.969 --> 00:56:52.329
Instagram Live, which is the right place to do a
1082
00:56:52.329 --> 00:56:55.599
lot of this. is there's just not people who have
1083
00:56:55.619 --> 00:56:56.480
the capacity to be heard.
1084
00:56:58.019 --> 00:56:58.239
Yeah.
1085
00:56:58.280 --> 00:56:59.679
Right. That is a challenge.
1086
00:57:00.500 --> 00:57:02.199
But part of it is you, well, this is a,
1087
00:57:02.500 --> 00:57:06.320
you know, this is a bigger topic about attention and
1088
00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:09.760
how to command attention in this age. But sometimes one
1089
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:11.820
way to get heard and have the capacity to get
1090
00:57:11.889 --> 00:57:15.230
heard is to say something worth hearing, you know? And
1091
00:57:15.250 --> 00:57:17.130
I don't think that anyone said anything worth hearing yet,
1092
00:57:17.550 --> 00:57:20.329
or not a lot of people. The bishop sure did. Now, look,
1093
00:57:20.349 --> 00:57:23.090
she was in a, she's a bishop. She's not political.
1094
00:57:23.489 --> 00:57:25.650
Donald Trump was sitting right there. So obviously that's why
1095
00:57:26.010 --> 00:57:28.530
the whole thing went viral. But like, I don't know.
1096
00:57:28.550 --> 00:57:31.190
I think we got to start throwing some stuff against
1097
00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:33.409
the wall, see what sticks in terms of getting the
1098
00:57:33.449 --> 00:57:35.889
message out, right? Not in terms of message itself, but
1099
00:57:35.929 --> 00:57:38.739
like people, it's what you said about Trump. You got
1100
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:43.320
to over communicate, right? There's the press release, the Senate
1101
00:57:43.340 --> 00:57:47.860
floor speech, the five minute cable hit, not sufficient, not
1102
00:57:47.900 --> 00:57:51.579
sufficient right now. One last thing on democratic strategy here
1103
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:54.989
on Wednesday night, someone we know Tom Vitor was a
1104
00:57:55.010 --> 00:57:59.469
guest of my pal Jesse Waters on Fox News. Let's
1105
00:57:59.489 --> 00:58:00.219
listen to how he did.
1106
00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:04.019
How many genders are there, Tommy? How many genders are there, Tommy?
1107
00:58:04.710 --> 00:58:07.719
The honest answer, Jesse, I don't care. I'm a libertarian.
1108
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:09.260
I don't care.
1109
00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:11.219
You can be what you want to be, Jesse.
1110
00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:12.179
Live your truth.
1111
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:14.579
Well, I'm not a Democrat, and that we know. I
1112
00:58:14.619 --> 00:58:16.880
haven't seen this enemies list. Can you show me this list?
1113
00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:19.000
Yeah, read Kash Patel's book, The New FBI Director.
1114
00:58:19.019 --> 00:58:21.519
You should check it out. It's not a long book.
1115
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:22.440
I haven't seen the list.
1116
00:58:22.699 --> 00:58:25.940
I know there was FBI agents on the ground on
1117
00:58:26.019 --> 00:58:29.119
January 6th, and then they destroyed evidence in the committee,
1118
00:58:29.139 --> 00:58:31.059
and then everybody gets preemptive pardons.
1119
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:32.260
What's that all about?
1120
00:58:32.280 --> 00:58:34.159
He's doing kind of the greatest hits of conspiracy. Are
1121
00:58:34.179 --> 00:58:35.059
we going to do lab leak now?
1122
00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:36.420
Where do we want to go next?
1123
00:58:38.429 --> 00:58:39.289
How'd our boy do?
1124
00:58:39.530 --> 00:58:41.489
He did great. He did great. He hung in there.
1125
00:58:41.630 --> 00:58:42.989
Our libertarian co-host.
1126
00:58:45.730 --> 00:58:47.849
I have a, I really appreciate it from Tommy because
1127
00:58:47.889 --> 00:58:51.070
I have a, one of my theories I'm noodling on
1128
00:58:51.130 --> 00:58:52.820
for the future of our party is we have to
1129
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:53.639
become more libertarian.
1130
00:58:55.139 --> 00:58:55.460
Okay.
1131
00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:55.820
Yeah.
1132
00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:58.880
Free speech, legalized marijuana.
1133
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.110
I thought, Tommy did great.
1134
00:59:01.309 --> 00:59:02.329
He was very quick on the draw.
1135
00:59:02.469 --> 00:59:05.139
He was very quick on the draw. It's also, I mean,
1136
00:59:05.579 --> 00:59:08.110
I did this, I did Jesse Waters during the convention
1137
00:59:08.710 --> 00:59:10.159
when we were, I was in the high school. of
1138
00:59:10.219 --> 00:59:11.840
Brat Summer. We were riding high.
1139
00:59:11.860 --> 00:59:16.070
Much, much tougher. Jesse Waters seemed a little scared about
1140
00:59:16.130 --> 00:59:17.769
his future when he saw you. Now he is.
1141
00:59:19.269 --> 00:59:19.449
Yeah.
1142
00:59:19.789 --> 00:59:21.699
He was like, well, no way. Well, Tommy was like,
1143
00:59:21.719 --> 00:59:23.639
why don't you just want to let this go? Donald
1144
00:59:23.659 --> 00:59:25.960
Trump won. He's like, I'm not letting it go, Tommy Vitor.
1145
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:30.219
That question about how many genders, that was the first
1146
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:31.119
question to Tommy.
1147
00:59:31.179 --> 00:59:31.679
Yes, no.
1148
00:59:31.940 --> 00:59:34.030
It wasn't like, hey, hello, could you comment on the
1149
00:59:34.070 --> 00:59:36.170
pardons or anything? It was like, Tommy, tell us about
1150
00:59:36.190 --> 00:59:40.329
the genders. It's still worth, you know, I still think
1151
00:59:40.369 --> 00:59:42.010
it's worth going on. It was worth going on to
1152
00:59:42.050 --> 00:59:46.750
hear Tommy bring up the conspiracies, give Jesse some shit. Like,
1153
00:59:47.090 --> 00:59:48.469
I think it's good.
1154
00:59:49.139 --> 00:59:54.119
This is, I mean, I have been a longtime opponent
1155
00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:56.889
of Democrats, other than the most talented of Democrats, which
1156
00:59:56.909 --> 00:59:59.170
I would include Tommy, and going on Fox News. But
1157
00:59:59.429 --> 01:00:02.150
now this is the thing we have to do. We
1158
01:00:02.190 --> 01:00:03.949
have to be everywhere, and you have to be in
1159
01:00:04.269 --> 01:00:06.829
uncomfortable spaces so you'll get more attention. If Tommy had
1160
01:00:06.869 --> 01:00:11.559
just gone on Pick Your MSNBC Show, it wouldn't have
1161
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:15.780
gotten any currency outside of the people who happen to
1162
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:17.019
be watching at that moment.
1163
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:20.739
For example, we're not talking about Lovett's star turn on
1164
01:00:20.780 --> 01:00:21.639
Chris Hayes last night.
1165
01:00:21.659 --> 01:00:22.260
He did Chris Hayes?
1166
01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:24.159
Which happened at the same time.
1167
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:25.360
I'm learning this right now.
1168
01:00:26.099 --> 01:00:28.400
I did the night before with Tim Miller, yeah.
1169
01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:30.360
You and Tim Miller were on Chris Hayes at the
1170
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:31.039
exact same time?
1171
01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:35.400
Yeah, we were just hanging out. Cool. We had a
1172
01:00:35.409 --> 01:00:36.449
good time yelling about everything.
1173
01:00:36.769 --> 01:00:39.530
If I didn't know that, then I've got to tell you.
1174
01:00:40.590 --> 01:00:42.010
Same way your wife finds out you did that.
1175
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:48.280
She definitely doesn't know. She texted me. She was like,
1176
01:00:48.300 --> 01:00:49.760
are you coming home? And I was like, no, I'm
1177
01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:53.460
doing this pod. And then I got the view. No,
1178
01:00:53.619 --> 01:00:56.840
I think you're right. It gets more attention that way.
1179
01:00:57.420 --> 01:00:59.400
And I think Tommy did great. So let's keep it up.
1180
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:01.619
All right. That's all we got for news. When we
1181
01:01:01.659 --> 01:01:05.750
come back. You'll all hear Dan's interview with DNC chair
1182
01:01:05.809 --> 01:01:08.349
candidate Faz Shakir. But one quick thing before we get
1183
01:01:08.369 --> 01:01:10.750
to Faz. Dan, I hear we have a special offer
1184
01:01:11.269 --> 01:01:16.269
for our listeners from Messagebox, your Substack newsletter. Is that right?
1185
01:01:16.670 --> 01:01:20.130
Well, John, great toss.
1186
01:01:20.510 --> 01:01:22.409
Speaking of reading the stage directions, right here it says
1187
01:01:22.550 --> 01:01:26.360
Dan Crosstalk. So that's what we're doing now. We're doing
1188
01:01:26.380 --> 01:01:27.320
the crosstalk.
1189
01:01:27.659 --> 01:01:34.380
Sometimes it says banter TK. Well, John, I do have
1190
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:35.940
a special offer, but before I get to that, I
1191
01:01:36.019 --> 01:01:37.619
just want to say, I've been writing this newsletter for
1192
01:01:37.739 --> 01:01:39.980
four and a half years now, which is very alarming,
1193
01:01:40.219 --> 01:01:42.559
but almost all of that's been during the Biden administration.
1194
01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:44.539
So I spent a bunch of time over the holidays
1195
01:01:44.599 --> 01:01:46.260
trying to think about what I want to do differently
1196
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:49.199
now that Donald Trump is back in our lives and
1197
01:01:49.780 --> 01:01:51.239
how I want to think about with four years of
1198
01:01:51.260 --> 01:01:53.440
fighting Trump ahead of us. And so It's kind of
1199
01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:56.179
come up with like three things that I'm really going
1200
01:01:56.199 --> 01:01:58.159
to try to focus on. The first is continue to
1201
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:01.219
analyze what happened this election, exploring how we can rebuild
1202
01:02:01.260 --> 01:02:03.849
our coalition. It's not pleasant to look back at that election,
1203
01:02:03.929 --> 01:02:06.389
but we have to learn the lessons from it. The
1204
01:02:06.429 --> 01:02:10.469
second is strategizing about how we can continue to combat
1205
01:02:10.489 --> 01:02:13.610
the right-wing media machine. We got our asses absolutely kicked
1206
01:02:13.670 --> 01:02:16.389
in the last election. We're at a huge media disadvantage.
1207
01:02:16.409 --> 01:02:18.730
So how do we fix that as Democrats? How do
1208
01:02:18.750 --> 01:02:21.769
we communicate better? What platforms do we use? What platforms
1209
01:02:21.789 --> 01:02:23.980
do we need to build? And the last thing is
1210
01:02:24.239 --> 01:02:26.880
I want to identify for my readers specific ways we
1211
01:02:26.920 --> 01:02:29.610
can all fight back against what Trump and his minions
1212
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:32.630
are trying to do, right? And that includes where to volunteer,
1213
01:02:32.889 --> 01:02:36.130
where to donate, which campaign matters most, and how to
1214
01:02:36.230 --> 01:02:38.469
talk to the persuadable voters in your life about what's
1215
01:02:38.489 --> 01:02:40.349
happening in politics, what Trump's doing, how to do that
1216
01:02:40.369 --> 01:02:43.349
the most effective way possible. So this is of interest
1217
01:02:43.389 --> 01:02:46.230
to you. I have a special offer that cringes me
1218
01:02:46.250 --> 01:02:47.530
to say this in so many ways.
1219
01:02:47.550 --> 01:02:50.429
That's fun watching your face do this.
1220
01:02:50.550 --> 01:02:53.769
I know, I know. The special offer is if you
1221
01:02:53.789 --> 01:02:57.590
go to the most embarrassing website possible, Crooked.com slash YesWeDan
1222
01:02:57.670 --> 01:02:59.969
and sign up for MessageBox, you will get your first
1223
01:03:00.190 --> 01:03:04.880
month free. So that is Crooked.com slash YesWeDan. End of pitch.
1224
01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:06.000
I have to go take a shower now.
1225
01:03:06.519 --> 01:03:10.679
Everyone, when there is a Dan Pfeiffer MessageBox, it is
1226
01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:12.900
the first thing I read when I wake up at
1227
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:16.670
the ungodly hour that I wake up because I'm like,
1228
01:03:16.710 --> 01:03:18.110
I'm not going to start my day with anything else.
1229
01:03:18.980 --> 01:03:20.679
But I got to read the message box first. I
1230
01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:22.260
do it every single time it comes out. It is
1231
01:03:22.300 --> 01:03:25.639
a fantastic fit. And I talk to Dan all the time.
1232
01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:27.380
So you would think that there's not a ton I
1233
01:03:27.420 --> 01:03:30.019
could learn from it, but I always do. So everyone
1234
01:03:30.039 --> 01:03:30.440
should go subscribe.
1235
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:32.380
I want you to know, I started sending it earlier
1236
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:35.139
to try to abide by your sleep schedule. Because if
1237
01:03:35.199 --> 01:03:37.619
I could be my playbook, I'm fucked for the day, right?
1238
01:03:37.889 --> 01:03:40.369
That's true. That's true. All right. When we come back,
1239
01:03:40.849 --> 01:03:52.389
Fast Shakir. Pod Save America is brought to you by Lumen.
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01:05:08.869 --> 01:05:11.050
Joining me now is Faz Shakir, the founder of the
1268
01:05:11.090 --> 01:05:14.639
progressive media site More Perfect Union, former national political director
1269
01:05:14.659 --> 01:05:18.309
for the ACLU, longtime advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders, and
1270
01:05:18.389 --> 01:05:21.909
now candidate for DNC chair, Fess. Welcome to Pod Save America.
1271
01:05:22.530 --> 01:05:23.429
Dan, thanks for having me.
1272
01:05:23.929 --> 01:05:24.190
Okay.
1273
01:05:24.349 --> 01:05:26.909
You've been in politics a long time. You've worked on campaigns.
1274
01:05:26.949 --> 01:05:29.550
You've worked on the Hill. You've been in groups. You
1275
01:05:29.570 --> 01:05:32.070
know a lot about how the DNC works. Why the
1276
01:05:32.090 --> 01:05:32.800
hell do you want this job?
1277
01:05:33.539 --> 01:05:36.280
We've gotten a creeping sense that maybe you feel the
1278
01:05:36.300 --> 01:05:39.519
same way, Dan, that there's a powerlessness about the DNC. Oh,
1279
01:05:39.579 --> 01:05:42.610
it's useless, especially in an age in which You've seen
1280
01:05:42.650 --> 01:05:45.329
a lot of the power drift over to super PACs
1281
01:05:45.369 --> 01:05:48.860
and outside actors who are a little more nimble and quick.
1282
01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:51.539
And I understand that. But let me get philosophical with
1283
01:05:51.579 --> 01:05:52.619
you for a moment here.
1284
01:05:52.659 --> 01:05:53.059
Sure.
1285
01:05:53.539 --> 01:05:56.099
We are dealing in a society where you've got great
1286
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:58.760
wealth and income inequality, where power is residing with people
1287
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:00.519
who have a lot of money. And when you think
1288
01:06:00.579 --> 01:06:02.159
about like if you just pull back and say, OK, well,
1289
01:06:02.179 --> 01:06:03.920
what do you do in a situation where, hey, a
1290
01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:06.889
lot of power has moved to the hands of a few?
1291
01:06:07.650 --> 01:06:11.710
What you need are people-powered organizations led with integrity that say, hey,
1292
01:06:12.130 --> 01:06:16.369
don't forget about us here. And those things have to
1293
01:06:16.429 --> 01:06:18.949
exist as institutions. So to all the people, and I
1294
01:06:18.989 --> 01:06:20.820
understand them, there's a lot of working class people out
1295
01:06:20.840 --> 01:06:24.860
there who say institutions are corrupt. They're broken. They don't
1296
01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:28.219
work for me. I'm making the argument, yeah, but institutions
1297
01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:30.519
are your way out. You need to have solidarity within
1298
01:06:30.539 --> 01:06:34.599
a structure. to have some power, this is what unions
1299
01:06:34.679 --> 01:06:36.940
are about, right? This is why you and I have
1300
01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:42.150
built up our own media institutions, is that people need voice.
1301
01:06:42.349 --> 01:06:45.090
And the DNC is one of two major political parties
1302
01:06:45.110 --> 01:06:47.090
in America. You got the Republican Party, which we know
1303
01:06:47.110 --> 01:06:49.869
what direction is going, and the Democratic Party. I'm like,
1304
01:06:50.190 --> 01:06:52.670
don't give up on a structure and an institution that
1305
01:06:52.769 --> 01:06:53.809
has to work for people.
1306
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:58.559
We have had your two primary opponents for this position
1307
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:00.800
on the show. We've talked to Ken Martin and Ben Wickler.
1308
01:07:01.409 --> 01:07:04.030
What is something you disagree with them on? You got
1309
01:07:04.070 --> 01:07:05.880
into this race after they've been running for a long time,
1310
01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:07.599
so there must have been something you saw that was
1311
01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:09.320
not being addressed or something you would do differently. So
1312
01:07:09.340 --> 01:07:10.539
I'm curious what the contrast is.
1313
01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:13.860
Yeah, the shortcoming in my mind is that I am
1314
01:07:13.900 --> 01:07:16.719
very pleased and happy, no surprise to you, that we're
1315
01:07:16.739 --> 01:07:19.280
not talking about being a working class party. I'm like, great.
1316
01:07:20.539 --> 01:07:22.280
Been hunting this one for a while, but like, I'm
1317
01:07:22.340 --> 01:07:24.619
glad coming out of this, like we're all talking about it.
1318
01:07:24.980 --> 01:07:27.679
And so then I'm sitting around saying, hey, okay, get
1319
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:30.960
me what is the ambitious new thing that we are
1320
01:07:30.980 --> 01:07:33.239
going to do out of the DNC that is going
1321
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:35.909
to turn the heads of working class people to say, oh,
1322
01:07:35.949 --> 01:07:38.889
that's different. That's interesting. I didn't realize you guys are
1323
01:07:38.909 --> 01:07:41.909
going to act that way. And I quite frankly was
1324
01:07:41.969 --> 01:07:45.530
feeling let down by the lack of ambition on that score.
1325
01:07:46.010 --> 01:07:50.570
And I'm jumping in to challenge the notions of our
1326
01:07:50.650 --> 01:07:53.199
constraints of thinking around what the DNC can do. If
1327
01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:56.719
you're an apparatus with $ 100 million plus in raise of
1328
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:00.440
a year and you've got 50 plus state parties, can
1329
01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:02.809
you think outside the box of how you let people
1330
01:08:03.030 --> 01:08:05.250
into this? The big thing that I'm trying to force
1331
01:08:05.269 --> 01:08:07.210
everyone to think about is a grassroots DNC that says,
1332
01:08:07.659 --> 01:08:11.519
membership to our organization is not merely a contribution. It
1333
01:08:11.579 --> 01:08:13.840
is us being in community with you. We have to
1334
01:08:13.900 --> 01:08:17.180
be out there with striking workers, organizing workers, people fighting,
1335
01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:20.840
you know, utility rate hikes or evictions and foreclosures. You
1336
01:08:20.859 --> 01:08:23.739
have to be closer to grassroots people who are fighting
1337
01:08:23.850 --> 01:08:28.050
economic justice issues and using your media apparatus to highlight
1338
01:08:28.090 --> 01:08:30.930
those fights in which I think working class people turn
1339
01:08:30.949 --> 01:08:32.949
to you and say, well, that that I've never seen
1340
01:08:32.970 --> 01:08:35.659
from the DNC. That's interesting. That's different. That's what I'm
1341
01:08:35.680 --> 01:08:37.199
compelling and forcing us to think about.
1342
01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:40.340
So what is that? Is community that big idea? Can
1343
01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:41.720
you talk a little more about that?
1344
01:08:41.979 --> 01:08:45.739
So I blend it all together, that media infrastructure being
1345
01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:47.359
on the front lines. Let's take, I mean, you go
1346
01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:50.250
case by case here, but let's say Amazon workers are
1347
01:08:50.289 --> 01:08:54.109
going to organize to fight for a union in a
1348
01:08:54.189 --> 01:08:56.560
North Carolina warehouse, which by the way is going on.
1349
01:08:57.310 --> 01:09:00.739
And does the DNC play a role in this? Right now, historically,
1350
01:09:00.779 --> 01:09:04.060
you and I know we're a partisan organization. We focus
1351
01:09:04.140 --> 01:09:07.439
on elections. What I'm arguing is that if you are
1352
01:09:07.460 --> 01:09:10.779
a working class party, you associate with the working class
1353
01:09:10.819 --> 01:09:14.550
struggles in all different fronts, And utilize some degree of
1354
01:09:14.569 --> 01:09:18.729
your email list to help build solidarity with them. Use
1355
01:09:18.750 --> 01:09:21.430
your media channels to advertise and explain what the hell
1356
01:09:21.470 --> 01:09:23.550
it is that they're fighting for at this Amazon warehouse,
1357
01:09:23.630 --> 01:09:26.930
why they matter to us. And ultimately, when we stick
1358
01:09:26.970 --> 01:09:29.069
our necks out for them in North Carolina and there's
1359
01:09:29.109 --> 01:09:31.760
an election, I believe you're more likely to get some
1360
01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:34.640
of those people to stand with the Democratic Party up
1361
01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:37.579
and down the ballot. when the time comes. So I'm
1362
01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:40.300
seeing it more holistically that when we change the way
1363
01:09:40.359 --> 01:09:42.579
we are projected to working class people, when we get
1364
01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:45.439
closer to their fights rather than just our fights, I
1365
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:47.239
think we got a better chance to recruit them back in,
1366
01:09:47.300 --> 01:09:49.680
particularly in this moment where people feel like Donald Trump
1367
01:09:49.739 --> 01:09:52.359
is leading us into a world where wealth and power
1368
01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:52.979
dictate all.
1369
01:09:54.340 --> 01:09:56.319
You obviously, you work for Bernie Sanders. You've talked a
1370
01:09:56.359 --> 01:10:00.689
lot about the Democratic Party becoming more populist. This is
1371
01:10:00.729 --> 01:10:03.149
a fairly loaded question or one that could take this
1372
01:10:03.189 --> 01:10:05.899
entire interview and several podcasts to talk about, so I'll
1373
01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:07.680
try to get your short version of the answer is,
1374
01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:12.920
Joe Biden was, on economics, the most progressive president in
1375
01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:15.380
a very long time. He did a lot of the
1376
01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:19.479
things that Bernie Sanders and other populists and progressives wanted
1377
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:22.140
him to do, yet we bled more with working class
1378
01:10:22.180 --> 01:10:26.380
voters than in any election since the 80s. What is
1379
01:10:26.399 --> 01:10:28.439
your short diagnosis for why that happened?
1380
01:10:28.779 --> 01:10:30.899
I'll try to keep it short. My diagnosis is that
1381
01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:33.920
when Joe Biden was rightly doing a lot of great
1382
01:10:34.199 --> 01:10:38.420
populist policy, it was not matched by the political apparatus
1383
01:10:38.819 --> 01:10:41.560
leaning into those same fights. So you take a moment
1384
01:10:41.600 --> 01:10:44.590
where Joe Biden makes history by going to a picket
1385
01:10:44.619 --> 01:10:47.270
line on behalf of the UAW during the midst of
1386
01:10:47.310 --> 01:10:50.350
their strike. You do not see a UAW kind of
1387
01:10:50.409 --> 01:10:53.409
solidarity effort and action from the DNC saying, this is
1388
01:10:53.510 --> 01:10:55.670
our fight. We together in this. This was Joe Biden
1389
01:10:55.689 --> 01:10:58.859
doing his thing, not the Democratic Party standing with you.
1390
01:10:59.060 --> 01:11:00.899
You take any of those big moments, you know, if
1391
01:11:00.939 --> 01:11:04.119
you have a Biden administration going after Big Pharma, launching
1392
01:11:04.140 --> 01:11:07.390
a major case, going after pharmacy benefit managers, going after Amazon,
1393
01:11:07.430 --> 01:11:10.550
a Kroger-Albertsons merger, whatever the case might be, some of
1394
01:11:10.590 --> 01:11:13.390
these big bank junk fees that Rohit Chopra and others
1395
01:11:13.430 --> 01:11:16.609
were fighting, you correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, it
1396
01:11:16.649 --> 01:11:19.569
does not feel to me that the policy apparatus that
1397
01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:23.760
was taking on these major challenges was accompanied by a
1398
01:11:23.819 --> 01:11:27.750
political apparatus telling you here's what we're doing and here's
1399
01:11:27.789 --> 01:11:30.229
the friction that we are engaged in right now and
1400
01:11:30.270 --> 01:11:32.770
why we're asking you to be part of this Democratic Party.
1401
01:11:32.789 --> 01:11:36.010
And when the political apparatus doesn't do its part, we
1402
01:11:36.050 --> 01:11:38.489
can't blame voters for just being like, I had no idea.
1403
01:11:38.649 --> 01:11:40.170
And I think to this day, if I went out
1404
01:11:40.229 --> 01:11:41.899
and talked about, hey, did you know we were fighting
1405
01:11:41.909 --> 01:11:44.199
the Kroger-Albertsons merger because we wanted to make sure grocery
1406
01:11:44.220 --> 01:11:47.359
prices were low and you had competition? What percentage, Dan?
1407
01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:50.500
What are we talking about? Five, five percent, ten percent?
1408
01:11:50.699 --> 01:11:51.899
One percent, one percent, if you're lucky.
1409
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:52.260
Yeah.
1410
01:11:52.609 --> 01:11:56.149
What a sad situation that these were the biggest things
1411
01:11:56.210 --> 01:12:01.140
that Biden was bringing about. As you know, the business world,
1412
01:12:01.180 --> 01:12:04.649
if I went into any K Street lobbying operation, or
1413
01:12:04.699 --> 01:12:07.010
in a chamber meeting, and I mentioned any of these
1414
01:12:07.050 --> 01:12:09.210
things that you and I are just talking about, would
1415
01:12:09.229 --> 01:12:14.109
they know? 98% awareness, right? They were very upset. Why
1416
01:12:14.149 --> 01:12:16.869
is Mark Zuckerberg where he is? He was upset that,
1417
01:12:17.189 --> 01:12:20.449
you know, they're taking on his Facebook monopoly. So he's
1418
01:12:20.550 --> 01:12:22.649
upset and he moves away. Elon Musk, oh, I didn't
1419
01:12:22.670 --> 01:12:25.170
get invited to a White House meeting and Joe Biden
1420
01:12:25.189 --> 01:12:28.569
was calling me a union buster. Yeah, these rich and
1421
01:12:28.590 --> 01:12:31.329
wealthy people were very upset at this direction. And yet
1422
01:12:31.390 --> 01:12:34.100
the political apparatus is not leaning in to tell you,
1423
01:12:34.539 --> 01:12:36.979
This is the direction that we are choosing to fight
1424
01:12:37.130 --> 01:12:38.010
for working class people.
1425
01:12:38.949 --> 01:12:42.729
One of, you know, your sort of passions in politics
1426
01:12:42.770 --> 01:12:45.939
has been sort of the asymmetry in media, right? Which
1427
01:12:45.979 --> 01:12:49.609
is why you started More Perfect Union, a progressive organization. populist,
1428
01:12:49.890 --> 01:12:53.710
pro-union media apparatus. What would you do with the DNC
1429
01:12:54.050 --> 01:12:58.550
to address the media asymmetry here? Which gets to the
1430
01:12:58.590 --> 01:13:01.310
core of, like, there is a political, missing political organizing
1431
01:13:01.369 --> 01:13:02.909
piece to what we're just talking about, but a huge
1432
01:13:02.949 --> 01:13:05.770
part of it is media, right? We got outgunned in media.
1433
01:13:05.789 --> 01:13:07.470
We were unable to communicate in the right way. Some
1434
01:13:07.489 --> 01:13:09.609
of that's specific to Biden, but how would you change
1435
01:13:09.680 --> 01:13:11.960
the DNC to address our media problems?
1436
01:13:12.359 --> 01:13:14.819
Part of your job, I think, in this moment is
1437
01:13:14.859 --> 01:13:18.159
to think of yourself as editor-in-chief of a social media
1438
01:13:18.689 --> 01:13:22.760
media channel. Thankfully, we at More Perfect Union have about,
1439
01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:26.659
I'd say, 1.3 million YouTube subscribers now. Dan, I want
1440
01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:30.800
you to guess, how many does the Democrats' YouTube channel,
1441
01:13:30.859 --> 01:13:35.520
which started in 2006, how many followers does it have
1442
01:13:35.539 --> 01:13:38.560
of More Perfect Union? What does Pod say? Probably close
1443
01:13:38.579 --> 01:13:40.819
to a million or maybe 750,000 or something?
1444
01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:41.220
Yeah.
1445
01:13:41.500 --> 01:13:46.590
So, you know, respectable numbers here. What does the DNC have?
1446
01:13:46.590 --> 01:13:47.479
150, I'm guessing.
1447
01:13:47.479 --> 01:13:55.220
76,000. So, you know, we are obviously undershooting on just
1448
01:13:55.340 --> 01:13:59.140
utilizing the channels to do compelling and interesting content. Well,
1449
01:13:59.420 --> 01:14:01.939
you and I know you don't just sprinkle fairy dust
1450
01:14:02.140 --> 01:14:04.640
on a YouTube channel and suddenly it grows. No, you
1451
01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:07.520
have to give some compelling content. I don't know, do
1452
01:14:07.539 --> 01:14:09.850
you ever work in the building? You know, I worked
1453
01:14:10.229 --> 01:14:12.279
back in the day I was a DNC opposition researcher.
1454
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.970
What I do know is we're sitting on content. If
1455
01:14:15.010 --> 01:14:18.890
you want to know what Donald Trump ever said, you know,
1456
01:14:18.989 --> 01:14:23.850
from his first term, his campaigns, video, it's there. They
1457
01:14:23.869 --> 01:14:27.729
have been recording it. It's wild that you can't come
1458
01:14:27.770 --> 01:14:31.760
up with compelling and interesting pieces to just tell people
1459
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:34.220
about here's what Donald Trump promised. Here's what he said.
1460
01:14:34.819 --> 01:14:36.779
Just that alone could do a hell of a lot
1461
01:14:36.819 --> 01:14:39.680
of service of content. But then, as I was mentioning,
1462
01:14:39.699 --> 01:14:41.920
when you're grassroots operation, you're getting out in the country
1463
01:14:41.960 --> 01:14:44.750
and you're trying to tell people we're a working class organization.
1464
01:14:44.789 --> 01:14:48.449
We care and affiliate with your economic justice fights. why
1465
01:14:48.510 --> 01:14:53.649
not use the channels, the videographers, and our 50-plus state
1466
01:14:53.689 --> 01:14:56.210
parties to say, hey, we're going to get on the
1467
01:14:56.250 --> 01:14:59.529
ground and tell this interesting and compelling economic justice story
1468
01:14:59.829 --> 01:15:02.520
just as a service to all of us to know
1469
01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:05.899
what's going on in the housing market, how you're getting
1470
01:15:06.520 --> 01:15:10.699
screwed on your utility rate hike. Whatever the case might be,
1471
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:14.420
I find that those types of pieces of content right
1472
01:15:14.460 --> 01:15:16.159
now would do a hell of a lot to attract
1473
01:15:16.220 --> 01:15:21.220
new audiences that aren't just purely partisan in nature.
1474
01:15:22.560 --> 01:15:25.909
Everyone who has ever run for this job since about
1475
01:15:25.909 --> 01:15:29.329
2006 has talked about a 50-state strategy. We're going to
1476
01:15:29.350 --> 01:15:33.149
organize everywhere. We're going to have red states, blue states,
1477
01:15:33.210 --> 01:15:36.430
et cetera. The challenge of that always is money, right?
1478
01:15:36.510 --> 01:15:39.750
There's not enough money to do everywhere. And then you
1479
01:15:39.850 --> 01:15:42.689
ultimately feel a need to prioritize in the seven swing
1480
01:15:42.710 --> 01:15:45.470
states or the Senate race, the states where they have
1481
01:15:45.489 --> 01:15:47.670
the Senate races or wherever that... these days are often
1482
01:15:47.689 --> 01:15:51.050
the same states. How do you plan to address that?
1483
01:15:51.069 --> 01:15:53.350
And what's your approach to organizing all over the country?
1484
01:15:53.890 --> 01:15:55.899
So when you mentioned I was at the ACLU, I
1485
01:15:55.909 --> 01:15:58.189
faced the same thing. We had 50 state affiliates all
1486
01:15:58.229 --> 01:16:00.600
over the board. We were fortunate that we had a
1487
01:16:00.659 --> 01:16:03.800
great grassroots fundraising operation. I think we ended up raising
1488
01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:06.300
$ 200 million plus. I think the DNC can do that
1489
01:16:06.340 --> 01:16:08.619
this year too. So I would challenge the notions that, well,
1490
01:16:08.939 --> 01:16:10.760
we just don't have enough money. I think it's a
1491
01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:14.380
matter of conviction around that money. It does mean if
1492
01:16:14.399 --> 01:16:16.600
you take away from somewhere, you have to add to somewhere.
1493
01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:19.189
But if you have a conviction of saying, you know,
1494
01:16:19.310 --> 01:16:21.760
a baseline of funding, right now you may know this, Dan, but,
1495
01:16:21.850 --> 01:16:24.260
you know, most state parties, if you're out in Idaho
1496
01:16:24.279 --> 01:16:28.479
or wherever, you probably get $ 12, 500 a month. That's a
1497
01:16:28.500 --> 01:16:31.180
poverty budget, right? Think about trying to run a state
1498
01:16:31.220 --> 01:16:35.270
party in Idaho at $ 12, 500 a month. And so one
1499
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:37.590
is just you have to increase the baseline of that.
1500
01:16:37.930 --> 01:16:40.890
And if you had a robust grassroots operation, you're not
1501
01:16:40.930 --> 01:16:44.210
only increasing their baseline, you're also saying that the data,
1502
01:16:44.270 --> 01:16:47.239
the donor, the lists that we're getting out of maybe
1503
01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:49.380
even the last election cycle, we raised a billion dollars
1504
01:16:49.399 --> 01:16:53.329
from small dollar funds, that that list goes back over
1505
01:16:53.390 --> 01:16:55.609
to you as well. But you've got to know what
1506
01:16:55.630 --> 01:16:57.409
to do with it. This is the challenge I face
1507
01:16:57.430 --> 01:16:59.489
at the ACLU. So I give you the list. Do
1508
01:16:59.550 --> 01:17:01.840
you have the digital expertise? Do you know how to
1509
01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:06.220
do online to offline events with volunteers? Probably it might
1510
01:17:06.260 --> 01:17:08.739
be challenging for a lot of other states. That's where
1511
01:17:08.800 --> 01:17:11.460
DNC comes in to say, hey, I got to give
1512
01:17:11.500 --> 01:17:14.300
you some baselines. Not only am I increasing the amount
1513
01:17:14.380 --> 01:17:16.649
to the state, I also got to give you technical
1514
01:17:16.699 --> 01:17:20.010
expertise from national of how to use it, the know-how.
1515
01:17:20.609 --> 01:17:23.470
And then I would just say our job, and I'll
1516
01:17:23.489 --> 01:17:26.310
say this with all delicacy and respect to the DNC universe,
1517
01:17:26.350 --> 01:17:28.529
which I've been in and you know a little bit about,
1518
01:17:28.909 --> 01:17:31.489
lots of councils and lots of caucuses. Man, one council
1519
01:17:31.529 --> 01:17:34.510
and one caucus breeds another council and a caucus. What
1520
01:17:34.529 --> 01:17:37.989
we really need is like program and mission. And so
1521
01:17:38.020 --> 01:17:41.609
we're by example, what I did at ACLU is say, hey,
1522
01:17:41.689 --> 01:17:44.670
we got one program mission for us was expand voting
1523
01:17:44.710 --> 01:17:47.350
rights in this country. Here's a North Star. Now states,
1524
01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:51.359
pitch me on what you could do to expand voting rights.
1525
01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:54.420
You got independent redistricting commissions. You got expansion of early vote.
1526
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:56.579
You're trying to get formerly incarcerated individuals to vote.
1527
01:17:57.100 --> 01:17:57.340
Great.
1528
01:17:57.399 --> 01:17:59.279
Get me a pitch. Explain what's going on in your
1529
01:17:59.300 --> 01:18:01.659
state and what you need to help fund it. See,
1530
01:18:01.720 --> 01:18:03.970
so if you set like a goal and ambition, a
1531
01:18:04.010 --> 01:18:06.710
purpose at the top, and now you've got states saying,
1532
01:18:07.029 --> 01:18:09.310
I think here, Even in Idaho, I think we can
1533
01:18:09.350 --> 01:18:10.310
do something about that.
1534
01:18:10.949 --> 01:18:11.819
We need that.
1535
01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:15.539
So goals and ambitions are like grassroots organizing is one
1536
01:18:15.619 --> 01:18:18.579
in events and communities that I was mentioning before. Candidate
1537
01:18:18.619 --> 01:18:20.479
recruitment across the board. Tell me what you're doing to
1538
01:18:20.539 --> 01:18:22.760
expand and do interesting candidate recruitment and.
1539
01:18:22.720 --> 01:18:23.159
We'll fund it.
1540
01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:27.550
And so I just feel a lack of ambition around
1541
01:18:27.609 --> 01:18:28.909
where's program and mission here.
1542
01:18:29.689 --> 01:18:32.369
Can you raise that money while still being less annoying
1543
01:18:32.510 --> 01:18:34.829
in your texting emails than the Democratic Party has been
1544
01:18:34.850 --> 01:18:35.510
in a long time?
1545
01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:40.039
One of the learnings of Bernie's email list, which still
1546
01:18:40.060 --> 01:18:42.300
to this day is very vibrant and raises a fair
1547
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:44.970
amount and probably outperforms a number of candidates still running
1548
01:18:45.010 --> 01:18:51.010
for office, is that he writes very substantively. long emails
1549
01:18:51.050 --> 01:18:53.350
and asks people often not even for a direct contribution.
1550
01:18:53.409 --> 01:18:56.850
It's a petition action and a secondary ask for money. And, and,
1551
01:18:57.640 --> 01:19:00.609
and I, I think I don't want to treat people
1552
01:19:00.649 --> 01:19:03.560
like they're dumb. I do think people, particularly in this
1553
01:19:03.720 --> 01:19:06.340
age where the economy is complex, people know it's rigged.
1554
01:19:06.699 --> 01:19:07.699
They're seeking money.
1555
01:19:08.329 --> 01:19:08.630
Depth.
1556
01:19:09.010 --> 01:19:13.029
Get me an understanding. Own your leader, your job. Help
1557
01:19:13.250 --> 01:19:17.729
unpack stuff for me. And I believe the emails, lists,
1558
01:19:17.789 --> 01:19:20.600
and texts don't have to be superficial and treat people
1559
01:19:20.619 --> 01:19:22.699
like they're dumb. I think you can raise the bar
1560
01:19:22.939 --> 01:19:25.500
and you say, hey, this is something interesting and compelling
1561
01:19:25.539 --> 01:19:26.899
that I want you to know about, and I'm asking
1562
01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:29.720
you to fund it. I think we'd seen an increase
1563
01:19:29.779 --> 01:19:30.800
in funding, not a drop-off.
1564
01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:35.430
Would the DNC under your leadership accept contributions from corporate
1565
01:19:35.449 --> 01:19:36.050
PACs and lobbyists?
1566
01:19:36.090 --> 01:19:38.729
Well, So what I'm– yes, well, what I'm most upset
1567
01:19:38.770 --> 01:19:42.510
about there is that corporate power influenced over the party.
1568
01:19:42.829 --> 01:19:46.409
So I wouldn't accept money from PACS lobbyists who are
1569
01:19:46.479 --> 01:19:49.020
trying to say, hey, we want a seat at the table.
1570
01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:50.920
We're going to influence this. And right now I think
1571
01:19:50.939 --> 01:19:52.720
that that's what you've got going, Dan, is you've got
1572
01:19:52.760 --> 01:19:55.300
these folks who believe not– that when I give you
1573
01:19:55.319 --> 01:20:02.069
a contribution– I expect that my finance committee will now
1574
01:20:02.170 --> 01:20:06.090
not be run by finance people that are the delegates
1575
01:20:06.210 --> 01:20:09.569
or people who we brought into the DNC, but they're outsiders.
1576
01:20:09.609 --> 01:20:12.609
The people outside the organization, they come in, they make determinations.
1577
01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:16.020
So I think if you're a working class party, in
1578
01:20:16.060 --> 01:20:19.859
my view, you do things that stand for working class people.
1579
01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:22.819
And I'll do a twist on you on this one.
1580
01:20:23.539 --> 01:20:26.300
If If Amazon wanted to give me, and I was
1581
01:20:26.319 --> 01:20:28.060
wrestling with this in real time, if Amazon wanted to
1582
01:20:28.100 --> 01:20:33.380
give me $ 50, 000 for the DNC, promise you, earmarked to
1583
01:20:33.420 --> 01:20:35.909
support Amazon workers in this country. So I'll take it.
1584
01:20:36.300 --> 01:20:39.439
And guess what? Those Amazon workers who are organizing in
1585
01:20:39.460 --> 01:20:41.350
North Carolina, they're going to get every penny of it.
1586
01:20:41.359 --> 01:20:43.050
We're going to show, you know, if you're a working
1587
01:20:43.060 --> 01:20:47.069
class party, this is what you are supporting. And in
1588
01:20:47.090 --> 01:20:50.359
that way... Yes, I will show my true colors because
1589
01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:55.289
corporate influence will not have driven the decision making. And
1590
01:20:55.529 --> 01:20:57.350
I think that my sense is there's a lack of
1591
01:20:57.390 --> 01:21:00.140
transparency and people feel like corporate influence is having a
1592
01:21:00.180 --> 01:21:01.640
large role of it because we don't even know where
1593
01:21:01.659 --> 01:21:03.880
the hell the money is going. Where does all the
1594
01:21:04.020 --> 01:21:07.819
large numbers amounts? Beyond the FEC filings, there's consultants who
1595
01:21:07.850 --> 01:21:08.199
get money.
1596
01:21:08.430 --> 01:21:08.649
But what?
1597
01:21:09.979 --> 01:21:12.199
I don't see anything. Where is my value as a
1598
01:21:12.260 --> 01:21:14.140
member of the Democratic Party? What are you doing in
1599
01:21:14.180 --> 01:21:16.270
community with me? We can raise the bar on that one.
1600
01:21:16.279 --> 01:21:18.340
We can do compelling and interesting stuff in communities all
1601
01:21:18.380 --> 01:21:18.899
over the country.
1602
01:21:19.479 --> 01:21:21.800
Well, Faz, thanks so much for joining us. Good luck
1603
01:21:21.859 --> 01:21:23.020
in your race. It's always great to talk to you.
1604
01:21:23.439 --> 01:21:24.520
Thank you, Dan. Appreciate it.
1605
01:21:30.449 --> 01:21:32.119
That's our show for today. I'm going to be back
1606
01:21:32.180 --> 01:21:34.640
in your feet on Sunday for our very first Sunday
1607
01:21:34.699 --> 01:21:39.500
show of 2025, featuring an excellent in-depth conversation with none
1608
01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:42.439
other than Rachel Maddow about Trump's first week back in office,
1609
01:21:42.479 --> 01:21:44.649
how we should cover his second term, and how to
1610
01:21:44.689 --> 01:21:46.909
stay sane. It was a lot of fun, as always.
1611
01:21:46.949 --> 01:21:49.050
I hope you'll check it out. Thanks to Faz Shakir
1612
01:21:49.090 --> 01:21:52.149
for coming on the show. And thanks to Jared O'Connell.
1613
01:21:52.600 --> 01:21:57.710
Dio Gomez, Jake Getz, Jesse Carson, Dave Seidel, and everyone
1614
01:21:57.890 --> 01:22:00.970
here at SiriusXM in New York City for hosting us
1615
01:22:01.010 --> 01:22:04.270
this week. We loved being here. We had wonderful hosts
1616
01:22:04.310 --> 01:22:06.229
at Sirius, so thank you everyone who helped us out.
1617
01:22:06.770 --> 01:22:09.810
And talk to you all on Sunday. If you want
1618
01:22:09.829 --> 01:22:12.329
to listen to Pod Save America ad-free or get access
1619
01:22:12.350 --> 01:22:16.090
to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our
1620
01:22:16.170 --> 01:22:19.300
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1621
01:22:19.350 --> 01:22:23.170
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1622
01:22:23.310 --> 01:22:26.369
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01:22:26.489 --> 01:22:29.970
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01:22:30.010 --> 01:22:31.829
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01:22:31.850 --> 01:22:34.479
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1626
01:22:34.520 --> 01:22:37.439
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1627
01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:41.039
Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin.
1628
01:22:41.460 --> 01:22:44.659
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01:22:44.680 --> 01:22:47.930
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1630
01:22:47.939 --> 01:22:51.390
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1631
01:22:51.430 --> 01:22:53.949
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01:22:53.989 --> 01:22:56.729
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01:22:56.770 --> 01:22:59.960
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1634
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:02.699
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01:23:11.220 --> 01:23:13.810
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