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Physics world.
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Hello and welcome to the Physics World Weekly
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podcast.
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I'm Hamish Johnston.
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Coming up in this episode, I'm going to
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preview some citing new content on the Physics
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world website,
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including a feature article that explains how ph
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insists are trying to understand why society is
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becoming more angry and polarized.
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And I'll also talk about an interview with
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the author of the biography
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that inspired the Hollywood
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blockbuster film
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Oppenheimer.
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Bud first, Physics World's Tammy Freeman speaks to
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a biomedical
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ethic
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about why the rapid growth of the commercial
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space sector
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makes it imperative that we develop a universal
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code of ethics for doing scientific
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research on human subjects in space.
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Scientific research on humans in space is crucial
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to maximize the safety of future space flights.
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It can also help address important health issues
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on earth.
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Agencies such as Nasa, the European space agency
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and others around the world
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perform such studies under clear ethical research guidelines.
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But for commercial space flights, which are becoming
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more and more prevalent,
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the rules are less clearly defined.
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In the coming decades,
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these commercial companies are looking to fly thousands
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of passengers and workers into space.
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And those aboard will have the opportunity to
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participate in research.
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But for this to happen, it's essential to
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develop clear ethical guidelines for these human studies
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So with they saying, a multi disciplinary panel
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of experts has put together a policy paper
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with a set of guidelines that ensure human
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research taking place in space is as safe
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and productive as possible.
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The paper set entitled ethically cleared to launch
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was recently published in the journal science.
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I'm speaking today with the first author of
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this report.
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Facility B him,
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assistant professor at the center for Medical Ethics
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and health policy at the Baylor College of
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Medicine.
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Hello, Vas facility. Thanks for coming on the
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podcast.
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Thanks Ren binding me.
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So this policy paper came out of a
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workshop that was held to discuss these potential
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ethical concerns for commercial space research. So
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More who prompted this workshop? Why was it
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needed?
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So as you rightly
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mentioned, Baylor College of medicine,
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is
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1 of only a few space medicine programs
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in in the country. And so, naturally, we
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see a lot of human subjects
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research in in space medicine and in space
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flight. So this report actually was born from
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a research ethics
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consultation.
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I did with some colleagues here at the
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center of for Medical Ethics and health policy,
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on helping the Translational Research Institute for space
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health here at Baylor. On the ethics of
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recruiting healthy volunteers for,
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a study on intra pressure in space.
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And so in that study, there were involvement
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of,
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commercial space companies,
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and it... In doing a write up in
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an ethical analysis
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of that study, it exposed really different rules
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and regulations for
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research involving humans when it was sponsored by,
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government or space agency like Nasa,
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versus
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commercial space companies. And so in,
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writing up this this analysis, we
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identified a need to bring together this multi
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stakeholder group that was comprised,
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of Us regulators,
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bio
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space lawyers, and as well as former astronauts
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and, space medicine physicians to come up with,
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a sort of ethical code of conduct, if
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you will.
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That
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we, you know, embarked on to evaluate what
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principles and practices should perhaps be carried over
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from existing policies
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and what new ethical issues had to be
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considered for the commercial space flight context.
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And, know, the framework is really needed on
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at least 2 accounts right now. So the
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first is that in the United States, the
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federal
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aviation administration is reviewing new flash regulations for
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safe commercial space vehicles.
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And,
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they're reviewing these new,
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regulations in the context of an existing moratorium
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on on on those regulations that expires at
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the end of the month. Context
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secondly, the Us is also set to d
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decommissioned their involvement in the international space station
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or the Is by the year 20 30,
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which still remains the only collaborative,
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low earth orbit research hub among space faring
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nations to date. So This move is really
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paving a direct path for commercial space flight
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companies
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to fill in this gap,
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and indeed, you know, companies are racing to
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cure these government contracts to build new space
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stations
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in the Is s that we expect, lots
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of human research to be conducted.
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Okay. So
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basically, that the framework that your team developed
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you came up with these 4 key principles.
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So we'll have a look at some of
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these. So the first 1 is social responsibility.
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So in other words,
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those who are privileged to travel in space
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should contribute to research that benefits all of
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society?
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Do you think passengers on commercial space flights
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will be willing to take part in research
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studies?
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I think many will consider it, and it's
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incumbent on both sponsors of research as well
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as researchers themselves.
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To be transparent
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about both the benefits of participating, as well
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as the heightened risks that are expected from
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the significant scientific uncertainty
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of how the human body functions in space
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long term. So the risks of research
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conducted in space is highly protocol,
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dependent just as they are on earth and
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could range from minimally risky, perhaps an observational
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study that require some sort of self monitoring
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to maybe minor invasive
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that might,
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require blood draws or other bio specimen, collect,
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for example,
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to really highly risky studies like the intra
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pressure case I mentioned earlier.
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Okay. And do you think there's a risk
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of people agreeing to take part in research
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just so they can get their trip into
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space?
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It's an important question and, the quick answer.
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Is, yes, especially considering that commercial crews are
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poised to fly many different kinds of people
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with different motivations for flight from pain customers
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to former astronaut
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to employees of commercial companies themselves. So this
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was an issue. We discussed at length
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in the the consensus meeting, and it's the
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issue of undue induce. And it's 1 we
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commonly face
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terrestrial clinical trials actually, where the benefits of
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participating in research
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can't be so great that it fundamentally
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alters how somebody would normally make decisions in
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the face of other, the risks involved. So
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we draw,
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attention to this issue of undue induce spend
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in in the paper and propose some ways
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of avoiding it, such as recruiting people,
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to participate in research studies and on research
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missions who would already be going to space
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as opposed to,
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offering this you know, what we... What could
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might be considered an excessive benefit
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to to travel to space just as you
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as your quest and suggested
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to to get a free trip up there.
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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So
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the second principle is scientific
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excellence. So as with any research,
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studies must be well designed, relevant and original.
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So what sort of experiments do you see
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future space travelers
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participating in, And and these gonna be different
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the studies that astronauts are performing today.
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Well, if the past decades of Nasa research...
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And and, Esa research are any indication of
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the variety
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of studies that potential for variety is also
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very great.
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So the studies we should expect to see,
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are those that attempt to answer, you know,
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lingering questions about humans thrive
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in space environments long term. So just last
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week, Nasa Astronaut Frank, Rubio just broke the
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record for the longest space mission by Us
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astronauts, and that was 355
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days.
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So considering that it will take nearly 7
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months to reach Mars and at least that
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long to return,
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future studies will really need to focus on
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how to sustain human life in space for
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longer. So
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research, I find particularly compelling are those that
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steady human behaviors and psychology and mental health,
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on long duration space missions,
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questions like what do cruise, up on a
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mission do with their dead or their sick.
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And how do we ensure the safety and
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welfare of people with various disabilities on who
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have different clinical needs and who we expect
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to be,
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flying with commercial space companies in the near
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future. So These are the questions that I
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think are necessary in order to make space,
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in long duration missions safer for,
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everyone.
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Okay. That's that's interesting. That's sort of your
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Is indeed a lot different to the sort
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of things, I guess, that they're looking at
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now.
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So The third principle is proportional.
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So this is maximizing the value of the
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study while minimizing the harms. To participants,
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and you've sort of touched on this already.
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What what sort of increased risks are there
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compared with similar studies performed on a
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So proportional
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refers to this realistic balancing
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of known or foresee risks with
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anticipated benefit. And so space
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even though we've made huge strides in engineering
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and human physiology of of space flight remains
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really this high risk car reward endeavor. And
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we argue
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for the position and the paper that the
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add on risks of research
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participation, should be evaluated
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against the baseline risk of space itself.
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So there, first are... There are many
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additional risks to to space.
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First and foremost, the environmental exposures,
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namely 0 gravity and radiation that are substantially
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different in space than to une earth. So
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muscles without load bearing weight due to a
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0 gravity
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environments can lead to muscle at t,
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and bone def... Density weaknesses,
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while increase radiation, heighten wrist for all types
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of cancers. Tri another risk that's not often
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considered a physical 1,
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but rather an emotional or mental health 1
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is the the risk of isolation and loneliness.
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Of being in space. And so this can
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have significant impacts on someone's
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mental well being and,
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and and remains a considerable risk of people
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who participate in researcher who will fly on
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in space long term. And I'll say that
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the only way we're able to
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characterize
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these risks and the extent to which they
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they pose
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you know, heightened risk to people
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00:11:50,719 --> 00:11:53,207
in space as as more people travel there
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00:11:53,344 --> 00:11:55,901
is that the data generated from studies are
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our most valuable resource and our most valuable
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insight into the extent of those risks. So
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it's the incredible time
285
00:12:03,373 --> 00:12:06,245
resources and sacrifice needed to gather just 1
286
00:12:06,245 --> 00:12:06,883
data point,
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justify sharing this data, I I think whenever
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00:12:10,392 --> 00:12:13,519
possible. And so there are additional risks when
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crews are small,
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00:12:15,277 --> 00:12:18,175
and we worry about things like privacy and
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confidentiality.
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And I think 1 of the the worries
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is that
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people who opt to participate in research,
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00:12:27,175 --> 00:12:29,718
won't have some won't enjoy some of the
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benefits
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00:12:30,767 --> 00:12:32,859
of of extensive data privacy,
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because there are just so few people
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00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:38,647
from which we're studying and and on research
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on crude missions.
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00:12:40,332 --> 00:12:43,530
So, nevertheless, I think sharing high fidelity data
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from rigorously designed and executed studies really benefits
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the entire industry.
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And especially so in a competitive market space
305
00:12:51,236 --> 00:12:54,032
like commercial space flight. Yeah. Absolutely.
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00:12:54,991 --> 00:12:57,879
And then finally, the fourth... Guideline is described
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00:12:57,879 --> 00:12:58,698
as global
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00:12:59,315 --> 00:13:01,069
stewardship. Can you explain what that means?
309
00:13:02,265 --> 00:13:05,788
Absolutely. So there's at present, I'm obvious in
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00:13:05,788 --> 00:13:07,459
inequities equities and who gets to go to
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00:13:07,459 --> 00:13:07,618
space.
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00:13:08,334 --> 00:13:10,426
What scientific questions get prioritized
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00:13:10,881 --> 00:13:14,223
in research and who ultimately makes those decisions?
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00:13:15,035 --> 00:13:15,855
So we're
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00:13:16,475 --> 00:13:19,195
people on 1 planet in 1 solar system
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00:13:19,195 --> 00:13:21,934
within what we think is an ever expanding
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universe. But we're a diverse people, and therefore,
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00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:28,029
the research we conduct must be representative of
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00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:29,129
humankind diversity,
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as we know it in order for that
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00:13:31,529 --> 00:13:34,739
research to really benefit everyone. So by globe
322
00:13:34,739 --> 00:13:37,612
by global stewardship, we mean really this responsible
323
00:13:37,612 --> 00:13:38,591
use of time
324
00:13:39,049 --> 00:13:41,855
of data that's been generated of now natural
325
00:13:41,855 --> 00:13:43,680
resources that balance the interests,
326
00:13:44,394 --> 00:13:47,170
society has un learning more about space and
327
00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:48,201
our place within it,
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00:13:49,486 --> 00:13:52,107
future generations who will no doubt have greater
329
00:13:52,107 --> 00:13:52,607
familiarity
330
00:13:53,139 --> 00:13:55,998
and understanding of space than prior generations.
331
00:13:56,969 --> 00:13:59,845
And to consider ultimately, what human presence in
332
00:13:59,845 --> 00:14:02,482
space, what affect human presence in space will
333
00:14:02,482 --> 00:14:05,210
have on other species on environmental and and
334
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:07,517
potentially other life we've yet to discover.
335
00:14:08,392 --> 00:14:10,699
So we borrow the concepts of global stewardship
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00:14:10,699 --> 00:14:14,079
from other disciplines such as environmental science, in
337
00:14:14,217 --> 00:14:16,131
conservation studies because we think they have great
338
00:14:16,131 --> 00:14:16,631
relevance
339
00:14:17,088 --> 00:14:17,827
for guiding
340
00:14:18,284 --> 00:14:22,033
responsible human exploration in space. So it global
341
00:14:22,033 --> 00:14:24,860
sur really conveys the sense of collective responsibility
342
00:14:25,076 --> 00:14:27,943
for the resources we take up to expand,
343
00:14:28,023 --> 00:14:30,332
you know, this frontier while being mindful of
344
00:14:30,332 --> 00:14:31,628
how resource investments
345
00:14:32,736 --> 00:14:34,409
in space will affect us here on earth
346
00:14:34,409 --> 00:14:35,286
now and in the future.
347
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:37,038
Okay.
348
00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:40,407
So you've got these 4 principles.
349
00:14:41,834 --> 00:14:44,248
How can you ensure that the commercial space
350
00:14:44,386 --> 00:14:47,258
companies actually stick to these suggested rules?
351
00:14:47,975 --> 00:14:50,927
Do you think you could somehow entrenched the
352
00:14:50,927 --> 00:14:51,427
principles
353
00:14:51,739 --> 00:14:53,677
it in a law that people have to
354
00:14:53,897 --> 00:14:56,054
keep to? Or do you think companies will
355
00:14:56,054 --> 00:14:59,010
create their own guidelines based on your suggestions?
356
00:15:00,619 --> 00:15:03,566
So you've outlined the next phase of our
357
00:15:03,566 --> 00:15:05,000
research and our consensus.
358
00:15:05,558 --> 00:15:06,774
So we are
359
00:15:07,390 --> 00:15:09,554
in, you know, the next the next phase
360
00:15:09,554 --> 00:15:12,521
is really looking to how we
361
00:15:13,692 --> 00:15:15,386
ent these best practices
362
00:15:15,761 --> 00:15:16,000
in,
363
00:15:17,034 --> 00:15:17,693
not only
364
00:15:18,641 --> 00:15:21,850
regulation, but also in guidelines that commercial companies
365
00:15:22,704 --> 00:15:23,204
can
366
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:25,986
demonstrate, you know, good faith, in good faith
367
00:15:25,986 --> 00:15:27,842
to the public and to other stakeholders,
368
00:15:28,618 --> 00:15:31,091
that the the research they're conducting has,
369
00:15:31,729 --> 00:15:35,434
is both scientifically valuable and socially valuable. So
370
00:15:35,811 --> 00:15:37,905
at present, you know, there are are different
371
00:15:37,963 --> 00:15:40,833
arms and different policy levers that can be
372
00:15:40,833 --> 00:15:41,333
used
373
00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:42,768
to incentivize.
374
00:15:44,115 --> 00:15:46,921
Commercial companies and and other stakeholders to,
375
00:15:47,614 --> 00:15:50,635
adopt some of these practices or regulation is
376
00:15:50,635 --> 00:15:51,192
just 1.
377
00:15:52,163 --> 00:15:53,757
I think in such an emerging,
378
00:15:54,474 --> 00:15:57,844
competitive space and and competitive industry that
379
00:15:58,221 --> 00:16:00,865
these companies are... There's a lot of eyes
380
00:16:00,865 --> 00:16:02,695
on these companies at the moment. And so
381
00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:03,332
it's really
382
00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:06,038
in, you know, their their best interest to
383
00:16:06,038 --> 00:16:07,413
put their best foot forward
384
00:16:08,044 --> 00:16:11,085
and demonstrate and be transparent with with the
385
00:16:11,085 --> 00:16:11,404
public,
386
00:16:12,125 --> 00:16:15,164
about what studies they're doing if any,
387
00:16:15,899 --> 00:16:18,136
sharing the results of those studies with the
388
00:16:18,136 --> 00:16:18,456
public,
389
00:16:19,095 --> 00:16:22,052
letting the public in on, on what things
390
00:16:22,052 --> 00:16:22,771
they're finding,
391
00:16:23,331 --> 00:16:25,499
and and I think based on, you know,
392
00:16:25,579 --> 00:16:28,049
the the the court of public opinion that
393
00:16:28,049 --> 00:16:30,439
that will be the strongest motivating factor and
394
00:16:30,439 --> 00:16:30,939
incentivizing
395
00:16:31,714 --> 00:16:34,197
factor for adopting the roles at present. But
396
00:16:34,197 --> 00:16:37,215
we're we're continuing this question, in this issue
397
00:16:37,215 --> 00:16:38,350
of accountability
398
00:16:39,041 --> 00:16:41,106
is 1 we we discussed at length.
399
00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:43,910
But And and are you continuing to collaborate
400
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:46,545
with some of these commercial space companies?
401
00:16:47,024 --> 00:16:49,579
Not at the moment, but we are always
402
00:16:49,579 --> 00:16:51,095
looking to collaborate.
403
00:16:51,908 --> 00:16:52,148
Okay.
404
00:16:53,105 --> 00:16:55,179
So just off looking booking ahead, How do
405
00:16:55,179 --> 00:16:57,333
you think commercial space flight will grow over
406
00:16:57,333 --> 00:16:58,211
the next decade?
407
00:16:59,023 --> 00:17:01,406
I believe witness in our lifetime,
408
00:17:02,121 --> 00:17:03,574
more and more advanced
409
00:17:03,948 --> 00:17:05,719
research missions that fly
410
00:17:06,029 --> 00:17:08,269
to farther distances in our solar system,
411
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:11,650
I believe the commercial, you know, space
412
00:17:12,109 --> 00:17:12,269
industry,
413
00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:16,372
will it expand both in number and in
414
00:17:16,826 --> 00:17:17,064
sophistication,
415
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,234
I believe that with
416
00:17:19,767 --> 00:17:22,868
artificial intelligence and machine learning will be... We'll
417
00:17:22,868 --> 00:17:24,657
be able to bet or understand
418
00:17:25,115 --> 00:17:27,747
what changes happened to the human body even
419
00:17:27,747 --> 00:17:30,538
at the molecular level, in real time,
420
00:17:31,336 --> 00:17:32,793
and be able to personalize
421
00:17:33,664 --> 00:17:36,934
risk for any prospective person who wishes to
422
00:17:36,934 --> 00:17:39,508
travel to space. So I think the scientific
423
00:17:40,045 --> 00:17:41,023
innovation and technological
424
00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:42,299
innovation
425
00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:45,563
will expand considerably with greater,
426
00:17:46,361 --> 00:17:47,876
commercial industry involvement,
427
00:17:48,434 --> 00:17:50,348
as well as, you know, our understanding of
428
00:17:50,348 --> 00:17:50,986
the built
429
00:17:51,465 --> 00:17:51,965
environment
430
00:17:52,422 --> 00:17:53,194
within space
431
00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:55,612
vehicle. So these are just some of the
432
00:17:55,612 --> 00:17:56,642
things to look forward to.
433
00:17:57,355 --> 00:17:59,892
Okay. And then my final question, do you
434
00:17:59,892 --> 00:18:02,693
see yourself ever taking part in a commercial
435
00:18:02,693 --> 00:18:03,172
space.
436
00:18:04,847 --> 00:18:06,841
I do, actually. So if Elon or Jeff,
437
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,675
you're listening, I'm ready to be the first
438
00:18:08,675 --> 00:18:10,350
death for astro assistance in space.
439
00:18:11,241 --> 00:18:11,560
Excellent.
440
00:18:12,435 --> 00:18:14,663
Right. Well, thank you very much for your
441
00:18:14,663 --> 00:18:16,255
time stay. I've been really interesting.
442
00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:17,687
Thank you.
443
00:18:25,177 --> 00:18:26,234
That was the ethic.
444
00:18:26,784 --> 00:18:27,284
Vas
445
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:29,517
Ra za in
446
00:18:29,894 --> 00:18:32,048
conversation with Physics World's Tammy Freeman.
447
00:18:32,925 --> 00:18:35,317
It's rare that a film is made about
448
00:18:35,317 --> 00:18:36,057
a physicist
449
00:18:36,449 --> 00:18:39,166
in the first place, and it's even rarer
450
00:18:39,166 --> 00:18:41,244
for such a film to be a blockbuster.
451
00:18:41,963 --> 00:18:44,441
But since its release in July, the movie
452
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,912
Oppenheimer has taken nearly 1000000000
453
00:18:47,972 --> 00:18:49,570
dollars at the box office,
454
00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:51,908
making it the highest earning
455
00:18:52,287 --> 00:18:52,787
bio
456
00:18:53,246 --> 00:18:54,045
film ever.
457
00:18:55,019 --> 00:18:57,336
The film is based on the pulitzer prize
458
00:18:57,336 --> 00:18:58,236
winning biography
459
00:18:58,695 --> 00:19:01,172
of Robert Oppenheimer called
460
00:19:01,571 --> 00:19:02,690
American Prometheus.
461
00:19:03,184 --> 00:19:07,175
The triumph and tragedy of jay Robert Oppenheimer.
462
00:19:07,893 --> 00:19:10,469
The book was published in 2005
463
00:19:10,607 --> 00:19:14,280
by K bird and the late Martin She.
464
00:19:14,994 --> 00:19:17,399
And I'm pleased to say that the latest
465
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:20,257
episode of the Physics World stories podcast
466
00:19:21,045 --> 00:19:22,025
features an in
467
00:19:22,884 --> 00:19:24,404
conversation with k bird.
468
00:19:25,525 --> 00:19:27,465
Stories host Andrew Gl
469
00:19:27,845 --> 00:19:30,680
asks bird about how he she
470
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:31,619
uncovered
471
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:32,600
Oppenheimer
472
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:34,180
enigmatic character.
473
00:19:35,059 --> 00:19:36,154
They chat about
474
00:19:36,754 --> 00:19:39,970
Oppenheimer front membership in an ultimate
475
00:19:40,349 --> 00:19:42,447
exclusion from the American
476
00:19:42,986 --> 00:19:43,486
establishment.
477
00:19:44,355 --> 00:19:46,979
This is a topic that's very close to
478
00:19:47,138 --> 00:19:50,715
Bird's heart, who has also written about former
479
00:19:51,033 --> 00:19:52,964
Us president Jimmy Carter
480
00:19:53,434 --> 00:19:53,513
and
481
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:58,536
Bundy and William Bundy, who shaped Us foreign
482
00:19:58,536 --> 00:19:59,036
policy
483
00:19:59,413 --> 00:20:00,927
during the Vietnam war.
484
00:20:02,217 --> 00:20:04,628
Bird talks about how he uses biography
485
00:20:05,004 --> 00:20:08,451
to explain how power works in a complicated
486
00:20:08,747 --> 00:20:10,180
democracy like the Us.
487
00:20:11,233 --> 00:20:14,190
The podcast also looks at the relevance of
488
00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:18,905
Oppenheimer experience to people developing new technologies today.
489
00:20:19,477 --> 00:20:21,461
Such as artificial intelligence.
490
00:20:22,016 --> 00:20:25,690
And Burden Gl also discussed today's post truth
491
00:20:25,825 --> 00:20:27,357
and populist politics.
492
00:20:27,984 --> 00:20:29,902
Through the eyes of Oppenheimer.
493
00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:33,338
Here is a snippet from the podcast in
494
00:20:33,338 --> 00:20:37,426
which bird explains how Oppenheimer appearance at a
495
00:20:37,426 --> 00:20:38,960
19 54
496
00:20:39,017 --> 00:20:42,677
security hearing and the subsequent rev vacation of
497
00:20:42,677 --> 00:20:45,835
his security clearance had a chilling effect
498
00:20:46,271 --> 00:20:47,565
on American scientists.
499
00:20:55,099 --> 00:20:57,731
You know, Oppenheimer life and what happened to
500
00:20:57,731 --> 00:21:00,363
is AAA
501
00:21:00,363 --> 00:21:02,916
major lesson, you know, in 09:19
502
00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:04,532
45, he was hailed
503
00:21:05,244 --> 00:21:06,063
in America
504
00:21:06,998 --> 00:21:08,136
as the country's
505
00:21:09,471 --> 00:21:10,290
most famous
506
00:21:10,667 --> 00:21:13,140
scientists, his image was put on the cover
507
00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:14,950
of time and life and
508
00:21:16,345 --> 00:21:19,477
and then 9 years later, he is literally
509
00:21:20,413 --> 00:21:20,913
destroyed
510
00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:24,720
in this kangaroo court of a security hearing.
511
00:21:25,054 --> 00:21:25,871
And humiliated
512
00:21:26,245 --> 00:21:26,745
and
513
00:21:28,469 --> 00:21:31,272
stripped of his security clearance and dis
514
00:21:31,963 --> 00:21:33,814
thereafter from university
515
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,840
speeches that had been scheduled, And, you know,
516
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,620
he becomes... He was once
517
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,299
a scientist
518
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,140
who was also a public
519
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,033
intellectual speaking out about public policy
520
00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:46,209
issues.
521
00:21:47,406 --> 00:21:48,683
And 9 years,
522
00:21:49,402 --> 00:21:52,296
you know, in 19 54, he was
523
00:21:53,007 --> 00:21:53,984
prohibited from
524
00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:57,624
any longer being a public intellectual. And, of
525
00:21:57,624 --> 00:22:00,250
course, this sent a message to scientists everywhere.
526
00:22:00,981 --> 00:22:01,220
You know,
527
00:22:01,936 --> 00:22:02,913
beware of getting
528
00:22:04,084 --> 00:22:07,480
speaking out from your narrow lane of expertise
529
00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:10,162
because you could get in trouble politically.
530
00:22:10,693 --> 00:22:11,193
And
531
00:22:11,804 --> 00:22:14,502
so this explains why even today,
532
00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:17,404
we do not have
533
00:22:21,521 --> 00:22:22,021
major
534
00:22:23,127 --> 00:22:23,627
public
535
00:22:24,001 --> 00:22:27,042
intellectual who are respected who are scientists.
536
00:22:27,733 --> 00:22:29,798
You know, they're just not very many of
537
00:22:29,798 --> 00:22:29,878
them.
538
00:22:30,751 --> 00:22:32,102
And that's that's odd.
539
00:22:32,993 --> 00:22:35,327
Given where we are in
540
00:22:37,699 --> 00:22:38,199
with
541
00:22:39,054 --> 00:22:39,874
a global
542
00:22:40,410 --> 00:22:42,006
civilization based on science.
543
00:22:49,623 --> 00:22:52,188
To hear that interview, check out the latest
544
00:22:52,324 --> 00:22:54,809
episode of the Physics World stories podcast.
545
00:22:55,421 --> 00:22:58,614
It's called the biographer who in inspired Christopher
546
00:22:58,773 --> 00:22:59,273
Nolan
547
00:22:59,728 --> 00:23:00,682
blockbuster film
548
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:01,478
Oppenheimer.
549
00:23:02,114 --> 00:23:04,126
You can find it on the Physics World
550
00:23:04,262 --> 00:23:07,610
website and at your favorite podcast provider.
551
00:23:08,879 --> 00:23:11,759
Also new on the website, the science journalist
552
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:14,410
epidemic looks at how physicists
553
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:17,210
are shedding light on why society
554
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:20,789
appears to be an and more divided than
555
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:21,109
ever.
556
00:23:21,924 --> 00:23:24,978
In a feature article, she explores the burg
557
00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:27,112
field of soc physics.
558
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:30,086
Looking at what mathematical analysis
559
00:23:30,478 --> 00:23:33,342
says about the role of voter stubborn ness
560
00:23:33,342 --> 00:23:34,217
and elections?
561
00:23:35,013 --> 00:23:38,911
And why some bigoted communities lang in obscurity?
562
00:23:39,565 --> 00:23:42,285
While others rise to national prominence.
563
00:23:43,565 --> 00:23:46,224
After reading the article, I couldn't stop thinking
564
00:23:46,365 --> 00:23:48,819
that insights from soc physics
565
00:23:49,178 --> 00:23:52,546
could be used to manipulate opinions and influence
566
00:23:52,842 --> 00:23:55,631
election outcomes, and not for the better.
567
00:23:56,365 --> 00:23:58,785
But as the French soc physicist
568
00:23:59,325 --> 00:24:00,384
surge Gill
569
00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:01,565
tells damning.
570
00:24:02,285 --> 00:24:03,904
This is like any scientific
571
00:24:04,205 --> 00:24:06,377
discovery. It can be used in a good
572
00:24:06,377 --> 00:24:09,014
way or in a bad way. See what
573
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:11,971
you think. The article is called the laws
574
00:24:11,971 --> 00:24:12,984
of division
575
00:24:13,344 --> 00:24:15,361
physicist probe into the
576
00:24:15,819 --> 00:24:17,655
polarization of political opinions.
577
00:24:19,411 --> 00:24:22,386
Today, it's unlikely that a soc physicist
578
00:24:22,778 --> 00:24:25,024
would also lead the field in cosmology,
579
00:24:25,794 --> 00:24:28,255
quantum computing and string theory.
580
00:24:29,128 --> 00:24:31,351
Physics has become highly specialized.
581
00:24:31,924 --> 00:24:34,164
And it seems like the days of the
582
00:24:34,164 --> 00:24:34,664
poly
583
00:24:35,125 --> 00:24:37,125
are well and truly over.
584
00:24:38,818 --> 00:24:41,120
But things were different in the eighteenth and
585
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:42,153
nineteenth centuries.
586
00:24:42,629 --> 00:24:43,526
When the poly,
587
00:24:44,058 --> 00:24:47,313
Thomas Young, famously turned his attention to the
588
00:24:47,313 --> 00:24:51,226
optic of the double slit, the mechanics of
589
00:24:51,226 --> 00:24:52,362
elastic materials
590
00:24:52,737 --> 00:24:54,249
and much much more.
591
00:24:55,378 --> 00:24:59,044
Indeed, young also did important work on fluids
592
00:24:59,044 --> 00:25:02,311
and human vision was a trained physician.
593
00:25:03,201 --> 00:25:05,661
And as a self trained linguist,
594
00:25:06,057 --> 00:25:09,492
he helped decipher the scripts on the Rosetta
595
00:25:09,548 --> 00:25:09,706
stone.
596
00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:13,720
On the Physics World website, the Uk's astronomer
597
00:25:13,776 --> 00:25:17,696
royal, Martin Re looks at Young many accomplishments
598
00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:20,710
through the lens of the buck the last
599
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:22,323
man who knew everything,
600
00:25:23,017 --> 00:25:23,812
Thomas Young,
601
00:25:24,369 --> 00:25:26,142
which is by Andrew Robinson.
602
00:25:27,328 --> 00:25:31,492
Reese's article is called Thomas Young, prolific poly
603
00:25:31,868 --> 00:25:33,701
and una assuming genius.
604
00:25:34,352 --> 00:25:37,054
And it also explores why history can be
605
00:25:37,054 --> 00:25:39,756
un kind to poly mass like young.
606
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:43,982
And if the article encourages you to read
607
00:25:44,141 --> 00:25:45,174
Robinson book.
608
00:25:45,888 --> 00:25:48,612
A free to read edition has been published
609
00:25:48,748 --> 00:25:51,884
online to celebrate the 200 and fiftieth
610
00:25:52,337 --> 00:25:53,927
anniversary of Young birth.
611
00:25:54,642 --> 00:25:57,344
Many Uk newspapers would refer to both Thomas
612
00:25:57,503 --> 00:25:59,966
Young and Martin Re as Ba.
613
00:26:00,854 --> 00:26:02,917
A word that conjure up the image of
614
00:26:02,917 --> 00:26:06,645
a white man with unruly gray hair who
615
00:26:06,645 --> 00:26:07,938
spout incomprehensible
616
00:26:08,564 --> 00:26:12,630
scientific jargon while waving around a steaming test
617
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:12,789
tube.
618
00:26:13,746 --> 00:26:15,979
While some physicists say that they're proud to
619
00:26:15,979 --> 00:26:16,935
be called ba.
620
00:26:17,509 --> 00:26:19,750
Others worry that the term conjure up a
621
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:20,250
stereotype
622
00:26:20,869 --> 00:26:22,089
that makes it difficult
623
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:25,829
to improve the diversity of people working in
624
00:26:25,829 --> 00:26:26,309
physics.
625
00:26:27,365 --> 00:26:30,005
Earlier this year, the institute of Physics,
626
00:26:30,484 --> 00:26:33,924
which represents physicists in the Uk and Ireland,
627
00:26:34,418 --> 00:26:36,904
launched its bin the Ba campaign
628
00:26:37,437 --> 00:26:40,934
to encourage media outlets to stop using the
629
00:26:40,934 --> 00:26:41,172
term.
630
00:26:42,060 --> 00:26:44,679
While the daily mirror was quickly on board,
631
00:26:45,155 --> 00:26:48,568
the daily star launched its own save our
632
00:26:49,679 --> 00:26:52,977
Petition, to counter the Io piece campaign.
633
00:26:54,227 --> 00:26:57,192
On the Physics World website, Rachel Young
634
00:26:57,582 --> 00:27:00,365
the deputy chief executive of the institute of
635
00:27:00,523 --> 00:27:01,023
Physics
636
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,808
explains why the Io is politely, but firmly
637
00:27:05,943 --> 00:27:06,999
asking the media
638
00:27:07,373 --> 00:27:08,484
not to use the term.
639
00:27:09,358 --> 00:27:11,128
That article is called
640
00:27:11,502 --> 00:27:13,113
why the institute of Physics
641
00:27:13,584 --> 00:27:14,564
launched a campaign
642
00:27:14,942 --> 00:27:17,580
to get the media to bin the ba.
643
00:27:18,778 --> 00:27:20,696
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
644
00:27:20,696 --> 00:27:21,895
for this week's podcast.
645
00:27:22,309 --> 00:27:23,289
Thanks to Vas,
646
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:24,970
Ra Za
647
00:27:25,349 --> 00:27:28,069
and Tammy Freeman for joining me today.
648
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:30,950
And a special thanks to our producer Fred
649
00:27:31,109 --> 00:27:31,429
Isles.
650
00:27:32,164 --> 00:27:34,798
We'll be back again next week. But until
651
00:27:34,798 --> 00:27:34,958
then,
652
00:27:35,757 --> 00:27:35,996
goodbye.
653
00:27:41,751 --> 00:27:42,788
Physics world.
00:00:05,232 --> 00:00:06,271
Physics world.
2
00:00:07,244 --> 00:00:10,121
Hello and welcome to the Physics World Weekly
3
00:00:10,121 --> 00:00:10,601
podcast.
4
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:12,039
I'm Hamish Johnston.
5
00:00:12,678 --> 00:00:14,916
Coming up in this episode, I'm going to
6
00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:18,277
preview some citing new content on the Physics
7
00:00:18,277 --> 00:00:19,072
world website,
8
00:00:19,788 --> 00:00:23,024
including a feature article that explains how ph
9
00:00:23,144 --> 00:00:26,805
insists are trying to understand why society is
10
00:00:26,805 --> 00:00:29,135
becoming more angry and polarized.
11
00:00:29,908 --> 00:00:32,296
And I'll also talk about an interview with
12
00:00:32,296 --> 00:00:34,161
the author of the biography
13
00:00:34,693 --> 00:00:36,622
that inspired the Hollywood
14
00:00:37,155 --> 00:00:38,131
blockbuster film
15
00:00:38,742 --> 00:00:39,060
Oppenheimer.
16
00:00:39,933 --> 00:00:43,365
Bud first, Physics World's Tammy Freeman speaks to
17
00:00:43,365 --> 00:00:44,183
a biomedical
18
00:00:44,717 --> 00:00:45,217
ethic
19
00:00:45,911 --> 00:00:48,750
about why the rapid growth of the commercial
20
00:00:49,028 --> 00:00:49,845
space sector
21
00:00:50,219 --> 00:00:53,874
makes it imperative that we develop a universal
22
00:00:53,874 --> 00:00:56,613
code of ethics for doing scientific
23
00:00:56,989 --> 00:00:59,695
research on human subjects in space.
24
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,880
Scientific research on humans in space is crucial
25
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,599
to maximize the safety of future space flights.
26
00:01:14,411 --> 00:01:16,795
It can also help address important health issues
27
00:01:16,795 --> 00:01:17,272
on earth.
28
00:01:18,703 --> 00:01:21,644
Agencies such as Nasa, the European space agency
29
00:01:21,644 --> 00:01:23,018
and others around the world
30
00:01:23,328 --> 00:01:26,455
perform such studies under clear ethical research guidelines.
31
00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:29,936
But for commercial space flights, which are becoming
32
00:01:29,936 --> 00:01:30,891
more and more prevalent,
33
00:01:31,464 --> 00:01:33,219
the rules are less clearly defined.
34
00:01:34,654 --> 00:01:35,771
In the coming decades,
35
00:01:36,170 --> 00:01:38,882
these commercial companies are looking to fly thousands
36
00:01:38,882 --> 00:01:40,796
of passengers and workers into space.
37
00:01:41,369 --> 00:01:43,762
And those aboard will have the opportunity to
38
00:01:43,762 --> 00:01:44,879
participate in research.
39
00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:48,069
But for this to happen, it's essential to
40
00:01:48,069 --> 00:01:51,234
develop clear ethical guidelines for these human studies
41
00:01:52,305 --> 00:01:54,923
So with they saying, a multi disciplinary panel
42
00:01:54,923 --> 00:01:57,565
of experts has put together a policy paper
43
00:01:57,858 --> 00:02:00,496
with a set of guidelines that ensure human
44
00:02:00,496 --> 00:02:03,199
research taking place in space is as safe
45
00:02:03,199 --> 00:02:04,551
and productive as possible.
46
00:02:05,346 --> 00:02:08,968
The paper set entitled ethically cleared to launch
47
00:02:09,425 --> 00:02:11,739
was recently published in the journal science.
48
00:02:12,855 --> 00:02:15,407
I'm speaking today with the first author of
49
00:02:15,407 --> 00:02:16,125
this report.
50
00:02:16,935 --> 00:02:18,308
Facility B him,
51
00:02:18,998 --> 00:02:21,378
assistant professor at the center for Medical Ethics
52
00:02:21,378 --> 00:02:23,679
and health policy at the Baylor College of
53
00:02:23,758 --> 00:02:24,234
Medicine.
54
00:02:25,123 --> 00:02:27,036
Hello, Vas facility. Thanks for coming on the
55
00:02:27,036 --> 00:02:27,514
podcast.
56
00:02:28,470 --> 00:02:29,505
Thanks Ren binding me.
57
00:02:30,701 --> 00:02:33,181
So this policy paper came out of a
58
00:02:33,181 --> 00:02:35,959
workshop that was held to discuss these potential
59
00:02:35,959 --> 00:02:39,474
ethical concerns for commercial space research. So
60
00:02:39,784 --> 00:02:42,264
More who prompted this workshop? Why was it
61
00:02:42,264 --> 00:02:42,504
needed?
62
00:02:43,064 --> 00:02:44,205
So as you rightly
63
00:02:44,504 --> 00:02:46,025
mentioned, Baylor College of medicine,
64
00:02:46,585 --> 00:02:47,085
is
65
00:02:47,399 --> 00:02:50,775
1 of only a few space medicine programs
66
00:02:51,234 --> 00:02:53,870
in in the country. And so, naturally, we
67
00:02:53,870 --> 00:02:55,903
see a lot of human subjects
68
00:02:56,362 --> 00:02:59,159
research in in space medicine and in space
69
00:02:59,159 --> 00:03:02,436
flight. So this report actually was born from
70
00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:03,370
a research ethics
71
00:03:04,047 --> 00:03:04,286
consultation.
72
00:03:04,923 --> 00:03:06,994
I did with some colleagues here at the
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00:03:06,994 --> 00:03:09,087
center of for Medical Ethics and health policy,
74
00:03:09,623 --> 00:03:12,784
on helping the Translational Research Institute for space
75
00:03:13,301 --> 00:03:16,322
health here at Baylor. On the ethics of
76
00:03:16,322 --> 00:03:18,230
recruiting healthy volunteers for,
77
00:03:18,866 --> 00:03:22,046
a study on intra pressure in space.
78
00:03:22,379 --> 00:03:25,190
And so in that study, there were involvement
79
00:03:25,486 --> 00:03:25,725
of,
80
00:03:26,442 --> 00:03:27,978
commercial space companies,
81
00:03:28,673 --> 00:03:31,316
and it... In doing a write up in
82
00:03:31,316 --> 00:03:32,533
an ethical analysis
83
00:03:32,988 --> 00:03:36,411
of that study, it exposed really different rules
84
00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:38,518
and regulations for
85
00:03:38,893 --> 00:03:41,916
research involving humans when it was sponsored by,
86
00:03:42,393 --> 00:03:44,462
government or space agency like Nasa,
87
00:03:45,431 --> 00:03:45,931
versus
88
00:03:46,306 --> 00:03:48,931
commercial space companies. And so in,
89
00:03:49,488 --> 00:03:51,817
writing up this this analysis, we
90
00:03:52,768 --> 00:03:55,881
identified a need to bring together this multi
91
00:03:55,881 --> 00:03:58,356
stakeholder group that was comprised,
92
00:03:58,835 --> 00:04:00,213
of Us regulators,
93
00:04:00,591 --> 00:04:01,091
bio
94
00:04:01,883 --> 00:04:04,534
space lawyers, and as well as former astronauts
95
00:04:04,830 --> 00:04:08,097
and, space medicine physicians to come up with,
96
00:04:08,336 --> 00:04:10,407
a sort of ethical code of conduct, if
97
00:04:10,407 --> 00:04:10,806
you will.
98
00:04:11,536 --> 00:04:12,036
That
99
00:04:12,489 --> 00:04:15,189
we, you know, embarked on to evaluate what
100
00:04:15,189 --> 00:04:18,524
principles and practices should perhaps be carried over
101
00:04:18,524 --> 00:04:19,818
from existing policies
102
00:04:20,842 --> 00:04:23,703
and what new ethical issues had to be
103
00:04:23,703 --> 00:04:26,166
considered for the commercial space flight context.
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00:04:27,358 --> 00:04:30,005
And, know, the framework is really needed on
105
00:04:30,005 --> 00:04:32,320
at least 2 accounts right now. So the
106
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:33,997
first is that in the United States, the
107
00:04:33,997 --> 00:04:34,497
federal
108
00:04:35,115 --> 00:04:38,964
aviation administration is reviewing new flash regulations for
109
00:04:38,964 --> 00:04:40,884
safe commercial space vehicles.
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And,
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00:04:42,404 --> 00:04:43,925
they're reviewing these new,
112
00:04:44,725 --> 00:04:47,226
regulations in the context of an existing moratorium
113
00:04:48,548 --> 00:04:51,559
on on on those regulations that expires at
114
00:04:51,559 --> 00:04:52,564
the end of the month. Context
115
00:04:53,562 --> 00:04:56,752
secondly, the Us is also set to d
116
00:04:56,752 --> 00:04:59,304
decommissioned their involvement in the international space station
117
00:04:59,304 --> 00:05:01,458
or the Is by the year 20 30,
118
00:05:02,096 --> 00:05:04,924
which still remains the only collaborative,
119
00:05:05,621 --> 00:05:08,595
low earth orbit research hub among space faring
120
00:05:08,653 --> 00:05:11,144
nations to date. So This move is really
121
00:05:11,144 --> 00:05:13,784
paving a direct path for commercial space flight
122
00:05:13,784 --> 00:05:14,284
companies
123
00:05:14,745 --> 00:05:15,944
to fill in this gap,
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00:05:16,584 --> 00:05:18,800
and indeed, you know, companies are racing to
125
00:05:18,919 --> 00:05:21,711
cure these government contracts to build new space
126
00:05:21,711 --> 00:05:22,211
stations
127
00:05:22,668 --> 00:05:26,337
in the Is s that we expect, lots
128
00:05:26,337 --> 00:05:28,171
of human research to be conducted.
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00:05:29,063 --> 00:05:29,962
Okay. So
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basically, that the framework that your team developed
131
00:05:33,286 --> 00:05:35,459
you came up with these 4 key principles.
132
00:05:36,249 --> 00:05:37,288
So we'll have a look at some of
133
00:05:37,288 --> 00:05:39,866
these. So the first 1 is social responsibility.
134
00:05:40,884 --> 00:05:41,843
So in other words,
135
00:05:42,482 --> 00:05:44,980
those who are privileged to travel in space
136
00:05:45,294 --> 00:05:48,082
should contribute to research that benefits all of
137
00:05:48,082 --> 00:05:48,560
society?
138
00:05:49,277 --> 00:05:51,826
Do you think passengers on commercial space flights
139
00:05:51,826 --> 00:05:53,897
will be willing to take part in research
140
00:05:53,897 --> 00:05:54,216
studies?
141
00:05:55,268 --> 00:05:58,481
I think many will consider it, and it's
142
00:05:58,540 --> 00:06:01,174
incumbent on both sponsors of research as well
143
00:06:01,174 --> 00:06:02,770
as researchers themselves.
144
00:06:03,264 --> 00:06:04,404
To be transparent
145
00:06:04,785 --> 00:06:08,064
about both the benefits of participating, as well
146
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as the heightened risks that are expected from
147
00:06:11,035 --> 00:06:13,442
the significant scientific uncertainty
148
00:06:14,293 --> 00:06:16,837
of how the human body functions in space
149
00:06:16,837 --> 00:06:19,403
long term. So the risks of research
150
00:06:19,873 --> 00:06:21,729
conducted in space is highly protocol,
151
00:06:22,426 --> 00:06:25,319
dependent just as they are on earth and
152
00:06:25,377 --> 00:06:29,500
could range from minimally risky, perhaps an observational
153
00:06:29,539 --> 00:06:31,957
study that require some sort of self monitoring
154
00:06:32,736 --> 00:06:34,355
to maybe minor invasive
155
00:06:34,894 --> 00:06:35,773
that might,
156
00:06:36,492 --> 00:06:39,185
require blood draws or other bio specimen, collect,
157
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for example,
158
00:06:40,974 --> 00:06:43,622
to really highly risky studies like the intra
159
00:06:43,679 --> 00:06:45,349
pressure case I mentioned earlier.
160
00:06:46,479 --> 00:06:47,834
Okay. And do you think there's a risk
161
00:06:47,834 --> 00:06:50,387
of people agreeing to take part in research
162
00:06:50,387 --> 00:06:52,141
just so they can get their trip into
163
00:06:52,141 --> 00:06:52,380
space?
164
00:06:53,018 --> 00:06:55,810
It's an important question and, the quick answer.
165
00:06:56,064 --> 00:06:59,917
Is, yes, especially considering that commercial crews are
166
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poised to fly many different kinds of people
167
00:07:02,371 --> 00:07:05,919
with different motivations for flight from pain customers
168
00:07:06,378 --> 00:07:07,597
to former astronaut
169
00:07:07,976 --> 00:07:12,051
to employees of commercial companies themselves. So this
170
00:07:12,051 --> 00:07:14,384
was an issue. We discussed at length
171
00:07:14,705 --> 00:07:17,504
in the the consensus meeting, and it's the
172
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issue of undue induce. And it's 1 we
173
00:07:20,465 --> 00:07:21,399
commonly face
174
00:07:21,915 --> 00:07:25,828
terrestrial clinical trials actually, where the benefits of
175
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participating in research
176
00:07:28,185 --> 00:07:30,684
can't be so great that it fundamentally
177
00:07:31,057 --> 00:07:34,233
alters how somebody would normally make decisions in
178
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the face of other, the risks involved. So
179
00:07:37,329 --> 00:07:37,805
we draw,
180
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attention to this issue of undue induce spend
181
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in in the paper and propose some ways
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of avoiding it, such as recruiting people,
183
00:07:46,724 --> 00:07:49,670
to participate in research studies and on research
184
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missions who would already be going to space
185
00:07:52,538 --> 00:07:53,754
as opposed to,
186
00:07:54,369 --> 00:07:57,011
offering this you know, what we... What could
187
00:07:57,011 --> 00:07:59,181
might be considered an excessive benefit
188
00:07:59,715 --> 00:08:01,783
to to travel to space just as you
189
00:08:01,783 --> 00:08:03,492
as your quest and suggested
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to to get a free trip up there.
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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So
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the second principle is scientific
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excellence. So as with any research,
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studies must be well designed, relevant and original.
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So what sort of experiments do you see
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future space travelers
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participating in, And and these gonna be different
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the studies that astronauts are performing today.
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Well, if the past decades of Nasa research...
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And and, Esa research are any indication of
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the variety
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of studies that potential for variety is also
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very great.
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So the studies we should expect to see,
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are those that attempt to answer, you know,
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lingering questions about humans thrive
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in space environments long term. So just last
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week, Nasa Astronaut Frank, Rubio just broke the
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record for the longest space mission by Us
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astronauts, and that was 355
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days.
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So considering that it will take nearly 7
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months to reach Mars and at least that
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long to return,
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future studies will really need to focus on
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how to sustain human life in space for
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longer. So
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research, I find particularly compelling are those that
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steady human behaviors and psychology and mental health,
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on long duration space missions,
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questions like what do cruise, up on a
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mission do with their dead or their sick.
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And how do we ensure the safety and
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welfare of people with various disabilities on who
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have different clinical needs and who we expect
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to be,
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flying with commercial space companies in the near
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future. So These are the questions that I
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think are necessary in order to make space,
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in long duration missions safer for,
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everyone.
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Okay. That's that's interesting. That's sort of your
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Is indeed a lot different to the sort
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of things, I guess, that they're looking at
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now.
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So The third principle is proportional.
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So this is maximizing the value of the
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study while minimizing the harms. To participants,
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and you've sort of touched on this already.
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What what sort of increased risks are there
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compared with similar studies performed on a
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So proportional
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refers to this realistic balancing
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of known or foresee risks with
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anticipated benefit. And so space
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even though we've made huge strides in engineering
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and human physiology of of space flight remains
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really this high risk car reward endeavor. And
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we argue
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for the position and the paper that the
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add on risks of research
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participation, should be evaluated
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against the baseline risk of space itself.
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So there, first are... There are many
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additional risks to to space.
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First and foremost, the environmental exposures,
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namely 0 gravity and radiation that are substantially
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different in space than to une earth. So
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muscles without load bearing weight due to a
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0 gravity
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environments can lead to muscle at t,
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and bone def... Density weaknesses,
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while increase radiation, heighten wrist for all types
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of cancers. Tri another risk that's not often
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considered a physical 1,
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but rather an emotional or mental health 1
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is the the risk of isolation and loneliness.
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Of being in space. And so this can
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have significant impacts on someone's
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mental well being and,
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and and remains a considerable risk of people
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who participate in researcher who will fly on
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in space long term. And I'll say that
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the only way we're able to
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characterize
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these risks and the extent to which they
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they pose
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you know, heightened risk to people
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in space as as more people travel there
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is that the data generated from studies are
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our most valuable resource and our most valuable
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insight into the extent of those risks. So
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it's the incredible time
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resources and sacrifice needed to gather just 1
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data point,
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justify sharing this data, I I think whenever
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possible. And so there are additional risks when
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crews are small,
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and we worry about things like privacy and
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confidentiality.
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And I think 1 of the the worries
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is that
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people who opt to participate in research,
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won't have some won't enjoy some of the
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benefits
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of of extensive data privacy,
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because there are just so few people
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from which we're studying and and on research
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on crude missions.
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So, nevertheless, I think sharing high fidelity data
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from rigorously designed and executed studies really benefits
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the entire industry.
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And especially so in a competitive market space
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like commercial space flight. Yeah. Absolutely.
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And then finally, the fourth... Guideline is described
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as global
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stewardship. Can you explain what that means?
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Absolutely. So there's at present, I'm obvious in
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inequities equities and who gets to go to
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space.
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What scientific questions get prioritized
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in research and who ultimately makes those decisions?
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So we're
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people on 1 planet in 1 solar system
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within what we think is an ever expanding
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universe. But we're a diverse people, and therefore,
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the research we conduct must be representative of
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humankind diversity,
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as we know it in order for that
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research to really benefit everyone. So by globe
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by global stewardship, we mean really this responsible
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use of time
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of data that's been generated of now natural
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resources that balance the interests,
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society has un learning more about space and
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our place within it,
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future generations who will no doubt have greater
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familiarity
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and understanding of space than prior generations.
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And to consider ultimately, what human presence in
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space, what affect human presence in space will
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have on other species on environmental and and
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potentially other life we've yet to discover.
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So we borrow the concepts of global stewardship
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from other disciplines such as environmental science, in
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conservation studies because we think they have great
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relevance
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for guiding
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responsible human exploration in space. So it global
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sur really conveys the sense of collective responsibility
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for the resources we take up to expand,
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you know, this frontier while being mindful of
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how resource investments
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in space will affect us here on earth
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now and in the future.
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Okay.
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So you've got these 4 principles.
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How can you ensure that the commercial space
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companies actually stick to these suggested rules?
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Do you think you could somehow entrenched the
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principles
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it in a law that people have to
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keep to? Or do you think companies will
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create their own guidelines based on your suggestions?
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So you've outlined the next phase of our
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research and our consensus.
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So we are
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in, you know, the next the next phase
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is really looking to how we
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ent these best practices
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in,
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not only
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regulation, but also in guidelines that commercial companies
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can
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demonstrate, you know, good faith, in good faith
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to the public and to other stakeholders,
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that the the research they're conducting has,
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is both scientifically valuable and socially valuable. So
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at present, you know, there are are different
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arms and different policy levers that can be
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used
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to incentivize.
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Commercial companies and and other stakeholders to,
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adopt some of these practices or regulation is
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just 1.
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I think in such an emerging,
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competitive space and and competitive industry that
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these companies are... There's a lot of eyes
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on these companies at the moment. And so
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it's really
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in, you know, their their best interest to
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put their best foot forward
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and demonstrate and be transparent with with the
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public,
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about what studies they're doing if any,
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sharing the results of those studies with the
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public,
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letting the public in on, on what things
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they're finding,
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and and I think based on, you know,
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the the the court of public opinion that
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that will be the strongest motivating factor and
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incentivizing
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factor for adopting the roles at present. But
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we're we're continuing this question, in this issue
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of accountability
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is 1 we we discussed at length.
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But And and are you continuing to collaborate
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with some of these commercial space companies?
401
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Not at the moment, but we are always
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looking to collaborate.
403
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Okay.
404
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So just off looking booking ahead, How do
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you think commercial space flight will grow over
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the next decade?
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I believe witness in our lifetime,
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more and more advanced
409
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research missions that fly
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to farther distances in our solar system,
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I believe the commercial, you know, space
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industry,
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will it expand both in number and in
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sophistication,
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I believe that with
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artificial intelligence and machine learning will be... We'll
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be able to bet or understand
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what changes happened to the human body even
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at the molecular level, in real time,
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and be able to personalize
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risk for any prospective person who wishes to
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travel to space. So I think the scientific
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innovation and technological
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innovation
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will expand considerably with greater,
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commercial industry involvement,
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as well as, you know, our understanding of
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the built
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environment
430
00:17:52,422 --> 00:17:53,194
within space
431
00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:55,612
vehicle. So these are just some of the
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things to look forward to.
433
00:17:57,355 --> 00:17:59,892
Okay. And then my final question, do you
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see yourself ever taking part in a commercial
435
00:18:02,693 --> 00:18:03,172
space.
436
00:18:04,847 --> 00:18:06,841
I do, actually. So if Elon or Jeff,
437
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,675
you're listening, I'm ready to be the first
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death for astro assistance in space.
439
00:18:11,241 --> 00:18:11,560
Excellent.
440
00:18:12,435 --> 00:18:14,663
Right. Well, thank you very much for your
441
00:18:14,663 --> 00:18:16,255
time stay. I've been really interesting.
442
00:18:17,050 --> 00:18:17,687
Thank you.
443
00:18:25,177 --> 00:18:26,234
That was the ethic.
444
00:18:26,784 --> 00:18:27,284
Vas
445
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:29,517
Ra za in
446
00:18:29,894 --> 00:18:32,048
conversation with Physics World's Tammy Freeman.
447
00:18:32,925 --> 00:18:35,317
It's rare that a film is made about
448
00:18:35,317 --> 00:18:36,057
a physicist
449
00:18:36,449 --> 00:18:39,166
in the first place, and it's even rarer
450
00:18:39,166 --> 00:18:41,244
for such a film to be a blockbuster.
451
00:18:41,963 --> 00:18:44,441
But since its release in July, the movie
452
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,912
Oppenheimer has taken nearly 1000000000
453
00:18:47,972 --> 00:18:49,570
dollars at the box office,
454
00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:51,908
making it the highest earning
455
00:18:52,287 --> 00:18:52,787
bio
456
00:18:53,246 --> 00:18:54,045
film ever.
457
00:18:55,019 --> 00:18:57,336
The film is based on the pulitzer prize
458
00:18:57,336 --> 00:18:58,236
winning biography
459
00:18:58,695 --> 00:19:01,172
of Robert Oppenheimer called
460
00:19:01,571 --> 00:19:02,690
American Prometheus.
461
00:19:03,184 --> 00:19:07,175
The triumph and tragedy of jay Robert Oppenheimer.
462
00:19:07,893 --> 00:19:10,469
The book was published in 2005
463
00:19:10,607 --> 00:19:14,280
by K bird and the late Martin She.
464
00:19:14,994 --> 00:19:17,399
And I'm pleased to say that the latest
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00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:20,257
episode of the Physics World stories podcast
466
00:19:21,045 --> 00:19:22,025
features an in
467
00:19:22,884 --> 00:19:24,404
conversation with k bird.
468
00:19:25,525 --> 00:19:27,465
Stories host Andrew Gl
469
00:19:27,845 --> 00:19:30,680
asks bird about how he she
470
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:31,619
uncovered
471
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:32,600
Oppenheimer
472
00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:34,180
enigmatic character.
473
00:19:35,059 --> 00:19:36,154
They chat about
474
00:19:36,754 --> 00:19:39,970
Oppenheimer front membership in an ultimate
475
00:19:40,349 --> 00:19:42,447
exclusion from the American
476
00:19:42,986 --> 00:19:43,486
establishment.
477
00:19:44,355 --> 00:19:46,979
This is a topic that's very close to
478
00:19:47,138 --> 00:19:50,715
Bird's heart, who has also written about former
479
00:19:51,033 --> 00:19:52,964
Us president Jimmy Carter
480
00:19:53,434 --> 00:19:53,513
and
481
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:58,536
Bundy and William Bundy, who shaped Us foreign
482
00:19:58,536 --> 00:19:59,036
policy
483
00:19:59,413 --> 00:20:00,927
during the Vietnam war.
484
00:20:02,217 --> 00:20:04,628
Bird talks about how he uses biography
485
00:20:05,004 --> 00:20:08,451
to explain how power works in a complicated
486
00:20:08,747 --> 00:20:10,180
democracy like the Us.
487
00:20:11,233 --> 00:20:14,190
The podcast also looks at the relevance of
488
00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:18,905
Oppenheimer experience to people developing new technologies today.
489
00:20:19,477 --> 00:20:21,461
Such as artificial intelligence.
490
00:20:22,016 --> 00:20:25,690
And Burden Gl also discussed today's post truth
491
00:20:25,825 --> 00:20:27,357
and populist politics.
492
00:20:27,984 --> 00:20:29,902
Through the eyes of Oppenheimer.
493
00:20:31,021 --> 00:20:33,338
Here is a snippet from the podcast in
494
00:20:33,338 --> 00:20:37,426
which bird explains how Oppenheimer appearance at a
495
00:20:37,426 --> 00:20:38,960
19 54
496
00:20:39,017 --> 00:20:42,677
security hearing and the subsequent rev vacation of
497
00:20:42,677 --> 00:20:45,835
his security clearance had a chilling effect
498
00:20:46,271 --> 00:20:47,565
on American scientists.
499
00:20:55,099 --> 00:20:57,731
You know, Oppenheimer life and what happened to
500
00:20:57,731 --> 00:21:00,363
is AAA
501
00:21:00,363 --> 00:21:02,916
major lesson, you know, in 09:19
502
00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:04,532
45, he was hailed
503
00:21:05,244 --> 00:21:06,063
in America
504
00:21:06,998 --> 00:21:08,136
as the country's
505
00:21:09,471 --> 00:21:10,290
most famous
506
00:21:10,667 --> 00:21:13,140
scientists, his image was put on the cover
507
00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:14,950
of time and life and
508
00:21:16,345 --> 00:21:19,477
and then 9 years later, he is literally
509
00:21:20,413 --> 00:21:20,913
destroyed
510
00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:24,720
in this kangaroo court of a security hearing.
511
00:21:25,054 --> 00:21:25,871
And humiliated
512
00:21:26,245 --> 00:21:26,745
and
513
00:21:28,469 --> 00:21:31,272
stripped of his security clearance and dis
514
00:21:31,963 --> 00:21:33,814
thereafter from university
515
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,840
speeches that had been scheduled, And, you know,
516
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,620
he becomes... He was once
517
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,299
a scientist
518
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,140
who was also a public
519
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,033
intellectual speaking out about public policy
520
00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:46,209
issues.
521
00:21:47,406 --> 00:21:48,683
And 9 years,
522
00:21:49,402 --> 00:21:52,296
you know, in 19 54, he was
523
00:21:53,007 --> 00:21:53,984
prohibited from
524
00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:57,624
any longer being a public intellectual. And, of
525
00:21:57,624 --> 00:22:00,250
course, this sent a message to scientists everywhere.
526
00:22:00,981 --> 00:22:01,220
You know,
527
00:22:01,936 --> 00:22:02,913
beware of getting
528
00:22:04,084 --> 00:22:07,480
speaking out from your narrow lane of expertise
529
00:22:07,916 --> 00:22:10,162
because you could get in trouble politically.
530
00:22:10,693 --> 00:22:11,193
And
531
00:22:11,804 --> 00:22:14,502
so this explains why even today,
532
00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:17,404
we do not have
533
00:22:21,521 --> 00:22:22,021
major
534
00:22:23,127 --> 00:22:23,627
public
535
00:22:24,001 --> 00:22:27,042
intellectual who are respected who are scientists.
536
00:22:27,733 --> 00:22:29,798
You know, they're just not very many of
537
00:22:29,798 --> 00:22:29,878
them.
538
00:22:30,751 --> 00:22:32,102
And that's that's odd.
539
00:22:32,993 --> 00:22:35,327
Given where we are in
540
00:22:37,699 --> 00:22:38,199
with
541
00:22:39,054 --> 00:22:39,874
a global
542
00:22:40,410 --> 00:22:42,006
civilization based on science.
543
00:22:49,623 --> 00:22:52,188
To hear that interview, check out the latest
544
00:22:52,324 --> 00:22:54,809
episode of the Physics World stories podcast.
545
00:22:55,421 --> 00:22:58,614
It's called the biographer who in inspired Christopher
546
00:22:58,773 --> 00:22:59,273
Nolan
547
00:22:59,728 --> 00:23:00,682
blockbuster film
548
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:01,478
Oppenheimer.
549
00:23:02,114 --> 00:23:04,126
You can find it on the Physics World
550
00:23:04,262 --> 00:23:07,610
website and at your favorite podcast provider.
551
00:23:08,879 --> 00:23:11,759
Also new on the website, the science journalist
552
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:14,410
epidemic looks at how physicists
553
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:17,210
are shedding light on why society
554
00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:20,789
appears to be an and more divided than
555
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:21,109
ever.
556
00:23:21,924 --> 00:23:24,978
In a feature article, she explores the burg
557
00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:27,112
field of soc physics.
558
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:30,086
Looking at what mathematical analysis
559
00:23:30,478 --> 00:23:33,342
says about the role of voter stubborn ness
560
00:23:33,342 --> 00:23:34,217
and elections?
561
00:23:35,013 --> 00:23:38,911
And why some bigoted communities lang in obscurity?
562
00:23:39,565 --> 00:23:42,285
While others rise to national prominence.
563
00:23:43,565 --> 00:23:46,224
After reading the article, I couldn't stop thinking
564
00:23:46,365 --> 00:23:48,819
that insights from soc physics
565
00:23:49,178 --> 00:23:52,546
could be used to manipulate opinions and influence
566
00:23:52,842 --> 00:23:55,631
election outcomes, and not for the better.
567
00:23:56,365 --> 00:23:58,785
But as the French soc physicist
568
00:23:59,325 --> 00:24:00,384
surge Gill
569
00:24:00,845 --> 00:24:01,565
tells damning.
570
00:24:02,285 --> 00:24:03,904
This is like any scientific
571
00:24:04,205 --> 00:24:06,377
discovery. It can be used in a good
572
00:24:06,377 --> 00:24:09,014
way or in a bad way. See what
573
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:11,971
you think. The article is called the laws
574
00:24:11,971 --> 00:24:12,984
of division
575
00:24:13,344 --> 00:24:15,361
physicist probe into the
576
00:24:15,819 --> 00:24:17,655
polarization of political opinions.
577
00:24:19,411 --> 00:24:22,386
Today, it's unlikely that a soc physicist
578
00:24:22,778 --> 00:24:25,024
would also lead the field in cosmology,
579
00:24:25,794 --> 00:24:28,255
quantum computing and string theory.
580
00:24:29,128 --> 00:24:31,351
Physics has become highly specialized.
581
00:24:31,924 --> 00:24:34,164
And it seems like the days of the
582
00:24:34,164 --> 00:24:34,664
poly
583
00:24:35,125 --> 00:24:37,125
are well and truly over.
584
00:24:38,818 --> 00:24:41,120
But things were different in the eighteenth and
585
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:42,153
nineteenth centuries.
586
00:24:42,629 --> 00:24:43,526
When the poly,
587
00:24:44,058 --> 00:24:47,313
Thomas Young, famously turned his attention to the
588
00:24:47,313 --> 00:24:51,226
optic of the double slit, the mechanics of
589
00:24:51,226 --> 00:24:52,362
elastic materials
590
00:24:52,737 --> 00:24:54,249
and much much more.
591
00:24:55,378 --> 00:24:59,044
Indeed, young also did important work on fluids
592
00:24:59,044 --> 00:25:02,311
and human vision was a trained physician.
593
00:25:03,201 --> 00:25:05,661
And as a self trained linguist,
594
00:25:06,057 --> 00:25:09,492
he helped decipher the scripts on the Rosetta
595
00:25:09,548 --> 00:25:09,706
stone.
596
00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:13,720
On the Physics World website, the Uk's astronomer
597
00:25:13,776 --> 00:25:17,696
royal, Martin Re looks at Young many accomplishments
598
00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:20,710
through the lens of the buck the last
599
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:22,323
man who knew everything,
600
00:25:23,017 --> 00:25:23,812
Thomas Young,
601
00:25:24,369 --> 00:25:26,142
which is by Andrew Robinson.
602
00:25:27,328 --> 00:25:31,492
Reese's article is called Thomas Young, prolific poly
603
00:25:31,868 --> 00:25:33,701
and una assuming genius.
604
00:25:34,352 --> 00:25:37,054
And it also explores why history can be
605
00:25:37,054 --> 00:25:39,756
un kind to poly mass like young.
606
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:43,982
And if the article encourages you to read
607
00:25:44,141 --> 00:25:45,174
Robinson book.
608
00:25:45,888 --> 00:25:48,612
A free to read edition has been published
609
00:25:48,748 --> 00:25:51,884
online to celebrate the 200 and fiftieth
610
00:25:52,337 --> 00:25:53,927
anniversary of Young birth.
611
00:25:54,642 --> 00:25:57,344
Many Uk newspapers would refer to both Thomas
612
00:25:57,503 --> 00:25:59,966
Young and Martin Re as Ba.
613
00:26:00,854 --> 00:26:02,917
A word that conjure up the image of
614
00:26:02,917 --> 00:26:06,645
a white man with unruly gray hair who
615
00:26:06,645 --> 00:26:07,938
spout incomprehensible
616
00:26:08,564 --> 00:26:12,630
scientific jargon while waving around a steaming test
617
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:12,789
tube.
618
00:26:13,746 --> 00:26:15,979
While some physicists say that they're proud to
619
00:26:15,979 --> 00:26:16,935
be called ba.
620
00:26:17,509 --> 00:26:19,750
Others worry that the term conjure up a
621
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:20,250
stereotype
622
00:26:20,869 --> 00:26:22,089
that makes it difficult
623
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:25,829
to improve the diversity of people working in
624
00:26:25,829 --> 00:26:26,309
physics.
625
00:26:27,365 --> 00:26:30,005
Earlier this year, the institute of Physics,
626
00:26:30,484 --> 00:26:33,924
which represents physicists in the Uk and Ireland,
627
00:26:34,418 --> 00:26:36,904
launched its bin the Ba campaign
628
00:26:37,437 --> 00:26:40,934
to encourage media outlets to stop using the
629
00:26:40,934 --> 00:26:41,172
term.
630
00:26:42,060 --> 00:26:44,679
While the daily mirror was quickly on board,
631
00:26:45,155 --> 00:26:48,568
the daily star launched its own save our
632
00:26:49,679 --> 00:26:52,977
Petition, to counter the Io piece campaign.
633
00:26:54,227 --> 00:26:57,192
On the Physics World website, Rachel Young
634
00:26:57,582 --> 00:27:00,365
the deputy chief executive of the institute of
635
00:27:00,523 --> 00:27:01,023
Physics
636
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:05,808
explains why the Io is politely, but firmly
637
00:27:05,943 --> 00:27:06,999
asking the media
638
00:27:07,373 --> 00:27:08,484
not to use the term.
639
00:27:09,358 --> 00:27:11,128
That article is called
640
00:27:11,502 --> 00:27:13,113
why the institute of Physics
641
00:27:13,584 --> 00:27:14,564
launched a campaign
642
00:27:14,942 --> 00:27:17,580
to get the media to bin the ba.
643
00:27:18,778 --> 00:27:20,696
I'm afraid that's all the time we have
644
00:27:20,696 --> 00:27:21,895
for this week's podcast.
645
00:27:22,309 --> 00:27:23,289
Thanks to Vas,
646
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:24,970
Ra Za
647
00:27:25,349 --> 00:27:28,069
and Tammy Freeman for joining me today.
648
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:30,950
And a special thanks to our producer Fred
649
00:27:31,109 --> 00:27:31,429
Isles.
650
00:27:32,164 --> 00:27:34,798
We'll be back again next week. But until
651
00:27:34,798 --> 00:27:34,958
then,
652
00:27:35,757 --> 00:27:35,996
goodbye.
653
00:27:41,751 --> 00:27:42,788
Physics world.
