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Hey everybody.
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This is Addison Berry, and you're listening to the Osio Labs podcast.
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The show that explores the question.
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How can we create sustainable businesses that care for people and make the world a better place?
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On today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Amber Matz.
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This is episode number six, and we're going to chat about the book"Who do we choose to be?
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Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, Restoring Sanity by Margaret Wheatley.
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This is a pretty sobering book that takes a hard look at where we are in the world today.
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We're given a good dose of science and history that walks us through the collapse of civilizations.
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And the necessary components for survival.
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Not in a zombie apocalypse way though, but how do we keep our humanity?
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How do we lead towards a future through dark times?
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For each chapter, you get some science and then a breakdown of the topic from the perspectives in the title.
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Facing reality.
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Claiming leadership.
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And restoring sanity.
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Which lays out her ideas on the path through it with a focus on sanity humanity and compassion I actually originally read this book last year and then reread it to do this podcast along with Amber.
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And I'm super curious to talk about this book because I find this book fascinating.
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So I'm excited to, to talk about it and with somebody else who's read it on the team.
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And so we'll just dive straight in.
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What was your overall impression?
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What do you think of this book?
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My overall impression of this book was that it, it was.
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It's, it was stunning.
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Not in the like, stunning, oh, this is so beautiful.
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It's stunning.
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In the, I'm stunned.
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Like I am kind of shocked and like, oh, oh, okay.
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Things are as bad as I thought.
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It was really kind of affirming in that way.
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Just having, you know, three years of discussions.
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Mostly with my husband during the pandemic and everything else that happened, and it was just validating in a way mm-hmm.
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To have like the things that we were talking about and we're like, am I, you know, these kind of, are we crazy?
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Or is the world crazy?
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Like, what, who, mm-hmm.
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What is happening here?
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Where's the sanity?
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Where's the, you know, where's that line?
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So it was, My overall impression was it was very thought provoking and validating kind of at the same time.
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So yeah, it was one of those, yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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You recommend this book to other, other people or who would you recommend it to?
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Might be a better question.
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I don't know.
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I would, the thing that kind of keeps me from.
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Recommending it to anyone and everyone is, the feeling I had when I was reading it was that the audience is for like leader people, like definite leaders.
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Hmm.
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And like people who are in kind of leadership roles and that's how they think of themselves, or they're just, they're in that mindset of leadership, whether they have an official role or not.
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They're in the mindset of being a leader.
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Okay.
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Whether that's in their community or their workplace or an organization or whatever.
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And you know, I haven't thought of myself as a leader in so many years that it was you.
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I haven't thought in those terms or I haven't had that mindset.
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In terms of how can I be of service to those around me or like, you know, kind of that servant leadership kind of mindset.
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That was something that was kind of.
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It was both interesting, but also I kind of felt a little disconnected, like mm-hmm.
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Oh, there's a lot behind what she's saying.
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there's a lot of thought and a lot of people think about this stuff all the time.
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Mm-hmm.
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And this felt like, or, or a survey of, of a lot of different schools of thought, you know, and it just felt.
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It was a little bit overwhelming in that regard and a little bit, I kind of struggled to connect with the, the ultimate kind of call to action, of how can you contribute to this world.
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You know, it, the world being as what it is so I found that the, kind of thought exercise is interesting and I think it's interesting for anyone to kind of.
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Who's been struggling to make sense of the world.
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It, it gives you some interesting things to think about and an interesting framework, an interesting perspective from different you know, his history, science.
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Mm-hmm.
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Neurobiology, you know, all sorts of different perspectives.
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So I think it was helpful in that regard, but, I'm still kind of grappling with the call to action, like, what does that mean for me?
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So that was kind of, I don't, I don't know.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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If you, so if you were recommending it to somebody, would you recommend it to people who are in leadership roles already and like for other people, sort of like have a, a caveat or a maybe.
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Read something else first to warm you up or something, or, well, for example, I, I was camping with my family and my brother is a professor of, you know, in, in the university and he's also recently taken on a, a leadership position in, in a church.
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So I, I absolutely recommended it to him and I talked to him about it and I thought it would be an interesting thing for him to read and also even something to bring his students through.
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Mm-hmm.
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and so I.
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Definitely recommended it to him.
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Right.
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Um, because he's in a position of influencing and, and leading young people who are trying to make sense of the world and what their place is in it.
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Mm-hmm.
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And who are grappling with a lot of kind of big questions about the future.
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So absolutely.
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I recommended it to him.
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I kinda struggled to recommend it to other people.
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I read passages to my husband, but I wouldn't outright like recommend it wholesale to anyone.
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Right.
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'cause I think it would just be kind of lost on them.
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Like it, they wouldn't really see the point.
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I think the appeal is to See the pers, the different perspectives she was talking about, mm-hmm.
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Her perspectives on what's happening in the world.
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I think that's very kind of universally interesting.
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But like I said, it's like the kind of the call to action, like, right.
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The contribution piece I think would be kind of just because, interesting, like we're still kind of in this insular, We're just kind of trying to protect ourselves a bit.
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We're kind of in this self-protective mode where we're just like, world is going a little nuts, and we're trying to kind of insulate ourselves from that instead of in the mindset of, okay, how can we serve in this capacity or be islands of sanity to those around us?
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So for me it was like a it's a personal growth call to action.
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Like how can I.
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Grow and be in a position to where I can be an island of sanity, which is a term she used isn't part of her call to action and so it just kind of made me aware of the gap between where I am personally and where I would need to be in order to contribute in the way that she is.
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Calling people too, right?
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Yeah, it's interesting'cause I mean, of course like I guess I'm in a leadership role, right?
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So for me, right, that is not a thing that sort of occurred to me.
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And this leads to, and, and we have talked about this and we've talked about this on the team.
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I want us to do another podcast on what is leadership.
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Sure.
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'cause a lot of people don't identify as leaders who actually are leaders.
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They just don't mm-hmm.
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Know what to recognize it.
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So that's a whole separate conversation that we will not dive into here.
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Um, but I, I find it interesting so I think like that is a critical.
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Question though, which is why I wanna do whole podcast on it.
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Mm-hmm.
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Because I see that theme rising over and over and over again.
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Mm-hmm.
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in lots of different facets.
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but back to having this book feel sort of like a, I don't know, like an enlightening to sort of where you are, where things are and where you might want to be, do you.
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Feel like it could do that for other people too.
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To just sort of be like, I'm not a leader, but I get what she's saying and I want to, I want to be able to take action.
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Mm-hmm.
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So something's gotta change in order for me to come back to this book in a year and mm-hmm.
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Or you know what I mean?
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Like do you think Yeah.
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Or do you think it's just On average too, too overwhelming for, so my take on it is that I think this book is amazing.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it definitely mm-hmm.
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made me feel not alone.
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Yes.
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And not crazy in my Yes.
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Dark cynicism that I lived in mm-hmm.
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For a very long time.
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And, and it sort of validated all of that.
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And then gave me this thread of hope that I previously had not been able to see in that mm-hmm.
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Mess, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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but I agree that recommending it is I would definitely recommend it'cause I, I find it just a really fascinating book.
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And also someone needs to be prepared to be overwhelmed, like, yeah.
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The first time I read this book, I felt dumped into the deep end.
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Yeah.
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like it, it's very overwhelming.
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there's like a lot of information, a lot of it kind of coming at you, and I find it, I'd be like, I, wow, this is a really good point.
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And then, you know, three pages later, oh my gosh, this is a really good point.
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And I would forget the other point because I was yeah, I was just being.
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But all of this new really interesting stuff and my brain just sort of couldn't keep up.
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And then on this, mm-hmm.
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Second, read through having an idea of what was going on.
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Mm-hmm.
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And having been book before, I could pace myself better and sort of absorb the things that I wanted to focus on better.
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Mm-hmm.
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So recommending it to someone, but also maybe having the caveat of just don't.
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Get overwhelmed with the whole thing.
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Take the bits that you want from it and then maybe come back to it again at a, yeah, at a later point.
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'cause it's, it's a lot.
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It's, it's a definitely a huge dump of information and perspective and new ways of thinking and, it can be a little tiring, I think that.
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I'm glad that I read it all the way through, and I felt those feelings of overwhelm and validation as well.
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I would like to read it again, but in, in more of a kind of a devotional kind of journal sort of a way.
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Mm-hmm.
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Like take one, ES read, it's basically a series of essays.
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Mm-hmm.
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And and read one essay at a time.
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And do and write, write something, you know?
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Right.
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Mm-hmm.
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Like basically journal through it, right.
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Absorb, absorb whatever was happening there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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she does, I mean, she does recommend doing such a thing, you know, like she does, she does prepare you, you know, she's like, this is going to be overwhelming.
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You should take your time.
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That's why there are images through all of those things are, she's aware.
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Totally of, of how o overwhelming it is.
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Yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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So I, I feel like it's, it's a good book to spend some time with and to study.
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Mm-hmm.
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And if it's not this kind of fast food, quick read sort of a book.
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It's a good study group book.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Over, yeah.
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Over, you know, a couple months.
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Yeah.
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Of like really taking your time to read, think, write, talk about it.
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Mm-hmm.
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Sort of absorb that thing and then move on to the next.
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Absolutely.
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I feel like that would actually be a really cool mm-hmm.
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Cool process, uh, to do with this book in particular.
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I absolutely agree.
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I would definitely recommend it as a study group discussion book.
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I think you, it's.
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Hmm, this gives, definitely gives me an idea to try and start something like this.
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'cause I think it would be a, a fun way to get through this book.
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Fun.
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Mm-hmm.
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It, yeah.
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do you, so you were saying in terms of the call to action didn't resonate as well'cause you weren't, you're like, where, how, where, how, what?
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And then, so I'm just curious, is there a takeaway from, for you, From the book or an, an action you do wanna take or a thing that you were like, I'll take this one thing from it and sort of carry forward with this for a little while, kind of a thing.
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Is there anything like that that came out of it for you?
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Sure.
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I think that the, the thing I took away from it was that there's an alternative to this feeling of being, that you're being swept along this current of life.
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At a, you know, I did a lot of whitewater rafting in my youth.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it feels like that's how life feels for me right now.
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And it's felt like that for a long time, where I'm just being swept along and you're just doing your best to avoid obstacles and stay in the boat and when you fall out of the raft, getting back into it as quickly as possible.
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So that's how, that's the feeling I have in this kind of anxiety, you know, kind of.
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Thrilling anxiety of survival, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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And that's kind of lessening as you know, things have kind of calmed down in my mind anyway.
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Mm-hmm.
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and so just the alternative being to be an island of sanity and to kind of yeah.
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That alternative is like a complete contrast to mm-hmm.
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This feeling of being swept along a river.
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So, mm-hmm.
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I find that it's important for me to have people who were those islands and so like I see the benefit of it and how much it's helped me.
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And so To do that in turn for other people is a real, it's a, it's a real challenge.
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I think that the, the reason why the call to action is hard for me to relate to.
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It's, it's not so much that it's hard for me to relate to.
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It's just, it's such a challenging prospect to think about because I still feel like I'm on the needful end of that, where it's something that I need in my life.
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Mm-hmm.
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And to turn around and be that for someone else is that.
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That seems like a no, uh, good thing to do, whether or not I, you know, and really hard to do, and the challenge and hard to do.
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And so the challenge is, she even says this, like, we need stable people to be islands of sanity.
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And I'm not trying to say I'm unstable, but it feels like, I do feel like mm-hmm.
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My, you know, that there is a, a, a measure of instability.
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And so the, the reason why the call to action is hard for me is because.
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It's such a challenge to think about.
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It's just, it's not how I've thought of myself or how I can contribute.
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So it's just a real wake up call and it's, it's a, it's a, it's something that I am gonna continue to think about.
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I do plan on rereading this and going through it a little more slowly and doing some writing along with it, some journaling.
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Mm-hmm.
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it'd be great to do a discussion group with it too.
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And, you know, yeah.
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Have people to talk about it with because it's just, there's just this gap.
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So the takeaway is yes, there's an alternative to feeling kind of swept along the insanity of this world and that you can actually be, I.
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An island of sanity.
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You can be an advocate for other people and you can, you can serve in, in a world that is kind of crumbling around you.
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Right.
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So that's kind of a heady call to action actually.
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It is, yeah.
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For sure.
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and I would say like the definitely there's essentially this, this.
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Idea of, of creating islands of, of sanity as mm-hmm.
00:17:04.825 --> 00:17:06.474
The world crumbles around us.
00:17:07.674 --> 00:17:13.605
And my take on that because that is like an overwhelming individual task.
00:17:13.875 --> 00:17:18.855
My take on that is an island is not a person, right?
00:17:18.855 --> 00:17:23.414
An island is a community of people who are helping each other.
00:17:24.275 --> 00:17:24.990
Do this hard work.
00:17:24.990 --> 00:17:25.349
Mm-hmm.
00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:26.750
Mm-hmm.
00:17:26.835 --> 00:17:33.720
So that it's not, I have to become this like island of sanity that others can then attach to.
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:39.269
But it's more like, can, can two or three of us hold onto each other Right.
00:17:39.275 --> 00:17:42.329
And help anchor each other mm-hmm.
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:44.309
And help build each other up.
00:17:45.029 --> 00:17:45.359
Yeah.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:47.160
You know, and, and like that.
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:50.250
And like, I think that's where, for me, that's really.
00:17:51.869 --> 00:17:56.400
What the community part of this is that she's speaking of is like mm-hmm.
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.009
You're not gonna do this alone.
00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:00.240
Yeah.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.240
And how do we, you know, provide this?
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.460
But like, you know, nobody's perfect.
00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:09.059
Nobody's gonna be able to be this perfect island of sanity themselves.
00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:17.670
But if you have multiple people who are working together to create this island of sanity, you don't have to hold it up a hundred percent of the time all by yourself.
00:18:18.105 --> 00:18:19.244
and, and support everybody.
00:18:19.244 --> 00:18:22.154
Then you can like get tired and others will support you.
00:18:22.934 --> 00:18:23.234
Right.
00:18:23.234 --> 00:18:24.734
And pass it around, you know?
00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:25.545
yeah.
00:18:25.545 --> 00:18:28.545
That does sound a a lot more appealing.
00:18:29.025 --> 00:18:36.484
Trying to transform myself into some sort of magical superhero beacon of foundation doesn't seem possible.
00:18:36.484 --> 00:18:36.875
Totally.
00:18:37.234 --> 00:18:37.654
Yeah.
00:18:38.285 --> 00:18:43.025
I think my takeaway again, beyond sort of what you're saying, like this, this idea of.
00:18:44.164 --> 00:18:49.755
It's all going to hell in a hand basket, but here is something that you can still do that is mm-hmm.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.144
That is meaningful in the midst of that.
00:18:52.204 --> 00:18:57.420
And that's such a, it was such a, a light that came into my life.
00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:01.049
and so that is just a wonderful takeaway from the book period.
00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:20.920
In terms of more practical aspects of it, I guess the whole, like she has like, you know, chapters and she works soon, but she starts off essentially talking about identity and then perception and all of the various ways that, we identify and that you have to have this permeable barrier.
00:19:21.009 --> 00:19:27.069
So you have to have a barrier, you have to have an identity, but it has to be permeable to information in order to survive.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.269
Yeah.
00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:32.549
That's like sort of the thrust of a lot of her like scientific, uh, social stuff.
00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:32.640
Mm-hmm.
00:19:34.664 --> 00:19:41.174
It just really made me this time reading and it really made me stop and think about what identity is.
00:19:41.884 --> 00:19:45.545
and how do you identify an island of sanity?
00:19:46.414 --> 00:19:50.285
How do you keep that identity healthy?
00:19:51.815 --> 00:19:52.085
Right.
00:19:52.085 --> 00:19:52.145
You know?
00:19:52.234 --> 00:19:56.345
And of course, you know, I mean, I think about this in terms of my whole life.
00:19:56.555 --> 00:19:59.164
Also specifically here.
00:19:59.569 --> 00:20:02.630
Talking about it with, with you and reading in the context of this podcast.
00:20:02.634 --> 00:20:02.670
Mm-hmm.
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:03.890
I think about it at work, right?
00:20:03.890 --> 00:20:14.789
Like, we have this team or this tiny little company and we have an identity and we, we are building our own island of sanity in mm-hmm.
00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:16.279
In this world right now.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.990
So what does that actually look like in me in terms of what she's talking about?
00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:22.369
Mm-hmm.
00:20:22.371 --> 00:20:28.569
Um, with identity and perception and This permeability and you know, information is not data.
00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:31.509
Like there, there, those are two different things.
00:20:31.509 --> 00:20:39.680
And so any, anyway, for me, I'm like, huh, this is something I really wanna think about within specific context of identity in my life.
00:20:40.069 --> 00:20:49.295
And you know, we have an upcoming retreat in about a month or so, and I'm like, I, I want us to sit down and talk about our identity Yeah.
00:20:49.595 --> 00:20:51.875
As a, as a group and.
00:20:52.805 --> 00:20:58.954
You know, what we're doing and how we are learning and how are we surviving and how do we, how do we see that happening?
00:20:58.954 --> 00:21:01.444
And just bringing it to consciousness.
00:21:01.934 --> 00:21:02.325
yeah.
00:21:02.505 --> 00:21:08.740
Instead of, I mean, we have our values listed and we have our mission and our vision, but that's part of identity, but that's not all of it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.690
And I feel like it's a, mm-hmm.
00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:17.809
I think it's a good thing to explore in multiple places, like, you know, within your family, within your, you know, various groups.
00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:18.210
Mm-hmm.
00:21:18.309 --> 00:21:33.940
So that's one of the big things I took out of this reading of it was, Hmm, really just sort of stopping and taking a step back and really thinking about this identity and, and what is an island of sanity from that perspective that she actually raises in the book.
00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:35.589
So yeah, that's, mm-hmm.
00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:38.230
That's what's kicking in my head these days.
00:21:38.234 --> 00:21:38.740
Really good.
00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:38.799
Yeah.
00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.890
We'll be showing up at the team retreat in a few weeks.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.319
I look forward to that.
00:21:47.275 --> 00:21:47.815
Yeah.
00:21:48.595 --> 00:21:52.615
I guess we're, we're already sort of running down on time.
00:21:53.125 --> 00:22:01.585
I mean, we could launch into the whole thing about the progress trap and technology, but I think that's gonna take a lot longer than the time that we have left this podcast.
00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:07.224
Yeah, it's, so that could be an interesting, potentially an interesting future podcast maybe.
00:22:07.585 --> 00:22:20.125
but so, Maybe we can just wrap up with sort of, do you have any other sort of last thoughts or, anything that we might have missed talking about points that you wanted to, to raise?
00:22:21.714 --> 00:22:31.315
I was just remembering one of the, the other kind of main things that I thought was really helpful about this book was the different ways and different perspectives in which that.
00:22:32.125 --> 00:22:36.654
That she provides help, help you to accept reality for what it is.
00:22:37.164 --> 00:22:37.224
Hmm.
00:22:38.005 --> 00:22:40.315
To not be sugarcoating in.
00:22:40.315 --> 00:22:43.194
And she, you know, has this little thing on Hopium.
00:22:43.855 --> 00:22:57.535
And as an optimist myself, like a lot of who really had my optimism dismantled in the past few years, it was, I think it's a really important.
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:11.559
Thing to, especially in the world of generative AI and all of the things, and all of the misinformation and disinformation, and she talks about that in the book as well, and all the propaganda and everything, how.
00:23:12.595 --> 00:23:16.434
How challenging it is to discern reality and Oh yeah.
00:23:16.525 --> 00:23:23.214
To discern truth, and it's so hard and it's getting, it's going to get harder.
00:23:23.545 --> 00:23:30.505
It's really chaotic and intentionally made difficult, it's not even subtle.
00:23:30.684 --> 00:23:34.335
It's like fun for people now to like distort reality, to mess with you.
00:23:34.335 --> 00:23:35.815
It's like entertainment mess with, yeah.
00:23:35.845 --> 00:23:35.934
Mm-hmm.
00:23:36.204 --> 00:23:47.605
So that was a really important, that was one of those validating things like, yeah, it is hard to figure out what is reality and what is the truth.
00:23:47.634 --> 00:23:53.795
And it's very difficult and there's a lot of different disciplines out there.
00:23:53.825 --> 00:23:54.005
Mm-hmm.
00:23:54.345 --> 00:23:57.849
you know, history, science, you know, many different things.
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:07.690
That can contribute to helping us understand how we're perceiving the world and how those lenses affect our perception.
00:24:07.694 --> 00:24:25.539
And just being aware of what, how you're perceiving things so that you can step outside that getting even more perspective, get perspective on your perspective was really kind of meta, you know, to really understand how it is that you're taking in the world.
00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:25.809
And.
00:24:27.144 --> 00:24:48.015
Question that, so that you can be a better, so that you can better understand the actual reality and to not feel like, to be, to be able to contend with that and just accept it instead of sugarcoating it or anything else, like mm-hmm.
00:24:48.585 --> 00:25:10.755
Trying to believe that it's going to be somewhat different and, and I, that really resonated with me and it was something that I felt was critical during the last few years especially with, with the pandemic, is understanding reality like, Yes, this is reality and yes, it's this bad and this is what, how we need to respond and how we need to support each other.
00:25:10.755 --> 00:25:14.515
So in that sense, I absolutely, I think that's what she's saying.
00:25:14.875 --> 00:25:14.964
Mm-hmm.
00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:24.664
Is we need to understand reality and all of its truth and all of its harshness and thus this is how we need to support each other and Right.
00:25:24.845 --> 00:25:25.075
And respond.
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.515
But don't pretend this isn't happening and then behave as if it isn't happening.
00:25:29.755 --> 00:25:30.174
Yeah.
00:25:30.414 --> 00:25:30.565
Right.
00:25:30.565 --> 00:25:30.775
That's.
00:25:31.674 --> 00:25:39.855
Yeah, that's where the conspiracy theories, theories and the, and the communities that are just kind of living outside of reality in their own bubbles.
00:25:39.859 --> 00:25:42.734
That's how those are born because they're not accepting reality.
00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:43.545
So, yeah.
00:25:44.174 --> 00:25:44.295
Yeah.
00:25:44.295 --> 00:25:45.855
I would recommend this book if mm-hmm.
00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:48.765
Especially if you can find someone to discuss it with.
00:25:48.769 --> 00:25:48.984
Mm-hmm.
00:25:49.394 --> 00:25:57.404
And if you can read it with someone or like, I'm going to do Spend some time with it and be journaling through it, so mm-hmm.
00:25:57.944 --> 00:26:02.115
understanding that as for an audience of leaders, but you don't necessarily like for me.
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:02.234
Mm-hmm.
00:26:02.315 --> 00:26:05.954
Like, maybe I just am not, maybe I'm a leader and I just don't even know it, you know?
00:26:06.075 --> 00:26:07.424
Oh, and yeah.
00:26:07.755 --> 00:26:10.769
Just not to like, Spoilers, but you are.
00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:13.470
So, but we'll talk about that on another podcast.
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:14.220
We'll talk about that later.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:14.549
Yeah.
00:26:14.555 --> 00:26:21.900
Because everybody, everybody on this team who's been on this podcast needs to have this conversation apparently again, but yes.
00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:22.440
Yeah.
00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:22.829
Anyway.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:23.609
Yeah.
00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:24.359
Cool.
00:26:24.990 --> 00:26:35.220
And I would say for anybody who's listening to this podcast, if you are curious about this book or if you've read this book and got completely overwhelmed by it, if you want to have.
00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:39.140
Some kind of discussion or study partner or group mm-hmm.
00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:39.549
Or something like that.
00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:42.369
Reach out to us and let us know, like we are, yeah.
00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:43.720
We are down for that.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:50.380
And for sure, I would love to have other people read this book and talk about it and try to Yes.
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:51.880
Muddle through it together, so.
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.380
Mm-hmm.
00:26:53.109 --> 00:27:00.930
Anyway, if you're listening and you're interested, drop us a line and and we will, we will definitely respond and, and mm-hmm.
00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:01.819
Help with open arms.
00:27:03.714 --> 00:27:05.454
Well thank you very much ma'am.
00:27:05.454 --> 00:27:06.295
Thanks for reading it.
00:27:06.414 --> 00:27:08.275
Thanks for, for getting through it.
00:27:08.275 --> 00:27:08.335
Yeah.
00:27:08.335 --> 00:27:14.650
And and the conversation and you know, obviously there will be more conversing on this one for sure.
00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:15.559
absolutely.
00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:16.400
Coming soon.
00:27:17.634 --> 00:27:24.595
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you have questions, comments, or suggestions for what you'd like to hear more about.
00:27:25.285 --> 00:27:30.095
You can find all of the various ways to reach us on our website at osiolabs.com.
00:27:30.474 --> 00:27:37.015
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
00:27:37.644 --> 00:27:42.384
Also, please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your podcast provider of choice.
00:27:42.984 --> 00:27:44.184
We'll catch you on the next episode.
00:00:00.304 --> 00:00:00.964
Hey everybody.
00:00:01.205 --> 00:00:05.075
This is Addison Berry, and you're listening to the Osio Labs podcast.
00:00:05.464 --> 00:00:06.964
The show that explores the question.
00:00:07.294 --> 00:00:11.765
How can we create sustainable businesses that care for people and make the world a better place?
00:00:12.515 --> 00:00:15.384
On today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Amber Matz.
00:00:16.085 --> 00:00:21.184
This is episode number six, and we're going to chat about the book"Who do we choose to be?
00:00:21.635 --> 00:00:26.315
Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, Restoring Sanity by Margaret Wheatley.
00:00:27.394 --> 00:00:31.175
This is a pretty sobering book that takes a hard look at where we are in the world today.
00:00:31.864 --> 00:00:36.634
We're given a good dose of science and history that walks us through the collapse of civilizations.
00:00:37.115 --> 00:00:39.064
And the necessary components for survival.
00:00:39.604 --> 00:00:43.655
Not in a zombie apocalypse way though, but how do we keep our humanity?
00:00:43.835 --> 00:00:46.295
How do we lead towards a future through dark times?
00:00:46.844 --> 00:00:51.404
For each chapter, you get some science and then a breakdown of the topic from the perspectives in the title.
00:00:52.023 --> 00:00:52.893
Facing reality.
00:00:53.402 --> 00:00:54.362
Claiming leadership.
00:00:54.813 --> 00:00:55.893
And restoring sanity.
00:00:56.523 --> 00:01:14.420
Which lays out her ideas on the path through it with a focus on sanity humanity and compassion I actually originally read this book last year and then reread it to do this podcast along with Amber.
00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:21.680
And I'm super curious to talk about this book because I find this book fascinating.
00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:26.769
So I'm excited to, to talk about it and with somebody else who's read it on the team.
00:01:27.489 --> 00:01:29.409
And so we'll just dive straight in.
00:01:30.609 --> 00:01:32.019
What was your overall impression?
00:01:32.019 --> 00:01:33.489
What do you think of this book?
00:01:35.709 --> 00:01:40.329
My overall impression of this book was that it, it was.
00:01:40.689 --> 00:01:42.099
It's, it was stunning.
00:01:42.099 --> 00:01:46.329
Not in the like, stunning, oh, this is so beautiful.
00:01:46.329 --> 00:01:47.109
It's stunning.
00:01:47.379 --> 00:01:49.209
In the, I'm stunned.
00:01:49.269 --> 00:01:54.790
Like I am kind of shocked and like, oh, oh, okay.
00:01:55.329 --> 00:01:57.489
Things are as bad as I thought.
00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:59.890
It was really kind of affirming in that way.
00:02:00.459 --> 00:02:04.540
Just having, you know, three years of discussions.
00:02:05.094 --> 00:02:13.675
Mostly with my husband during the pandemic and everything else that happened, and it was just validating in a way mm-hmm.
00:02:13.914 --> 00:02:22.104
To have like the things that we were talking about and we're like, am I, you know, these kind of, are we crazy?
00:02:22.104 --> 00:02:23.604
Or is the world crazy?
00:02:23.604 --> 00:02:25.305
Like, what, who, mm-hmm.
00:02:25.615 --> 00:02:26.694
What is happening here?
00:02:26.694 --> 00:02:28.044
Where's the sanity?
00:02:28.074 --> 00:02:30.354
Where's the, you know, where's that line?
00:02:30.745 --> 00:02:38.199
So it was, My overall impression was it was very thought provoking and validating kind of at the same time.
00:02:38.349 --> 00:02:40.689
So yeah, it was one of those, yeah.
00:02:40.689 --> 00:02:40.780
Mm-hmm.
00:02:40.780 --> 00:02:46.810
You recommend this book to other, other people or who would you recommend it to?
00:02:46.810 --> 00:02:48.250
Might be a better question.
00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:48.490
I don't know.
00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.379
I would, the thing that kind of keeps me from.
00:02:53.784 --> 00:03:05.455
Recommending it to anyone and everyone is, the feeling I had when I was reading it was that the audience is for like leader people, like definite leaders.
00:03:05.694 --> 00:03:05.905
Hmm.
00:03:05.965 --> 00:03:18.805
And like people who are in kind of leadership roles and that's how they think of themselves, or they're just, they're in that mindset of leadership, whether they have an official role or not.
00:03:18.805 --> 00:03:21.865
They're in the mindset of being a leader.
00:03:21.895 --> 00:03:21.925
Okay.
00:03:22.974 --> 00:03:29.125
Whether that's in their community or their workplace or an organization or whatever.
00:03:29.604 --> 00:03:36.354
And you know, I haven't thought of myself as a leader in so many years that it was you.
00:03:36.414 --> 00:03:39.865
I haven't thought in those terms or I haven't had that mindset.
00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:47.280
In terms of how can I be of service to those around me or like, you know, kind of that servant leadership kind of mindset.
00:03:47.969 --> 00:03:49.800
That was something that was kind of.
00:03:50.865 --> 00:03:54.645
It was both interesting, but also I kind of felt a little disconnected, like mm-hmm.
00:03:54.854 --> 00:03:58.514
Oh, there's a lot behind what she's saying.
00:03:58.574 --> 00:04:03.034
there's a lot of thought and a lot of people think about this stuff all the time.
00:04:03.034 --> 00:04:03.125
Mm-hmm.
00:04:03.694 --> 00:04:12.694
And this felt like, or, or a survey of, of a lot of different schools of thought, you know, and it just felt.
00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:26.160
It was a little bit overwhelming in that regard and a little bit, I kind of struggled to connect with the, the ultimate kind of call to action, of how can you contribute to this world.
00:04:26.370 --> 00:04:38.769
You know, it, the world being as what it is so I found that the, kind of thought exercise is interesting and I think it's interesting for anyone to kind of.
00:04:39.745 --> 00:04:43.225
Who's been struggling to make sense of the world.
00:04:43.254 --> 00:04:53.014
It, it gives you some interesting things to think about and an interesting framework, an interesting perspective from different you know, his history, science.
00:04:53.314 --> 00:04:53.435
Mm-hmm.
00:04:53.675 --> 00:04:57.665
Neurobiology, you know, all sorts of different perspectives.
00:04:57.665 --> 00:05:07.115
So I think it was helpful in that regard, but, I'm still kind of grappling with the call to action, like, what does that mean for me?
00:05:07.444 --> 00:05:11.014
So that was kind of, I don't, I don't know.
00:05:11.254 --> 00:05:11.375
Yeah.
00:05:11.375 --> 00:05:11.615
Right.
00:05:11.615 --> 00:05:26.920
If you, so if you were recommending it to somebody, would you recommend it to people who are in leadership roles already and like for other people, sort of like have a, a caveat or a maybe.
00:05:27.894 --> 00:05:45.750
Read something else first to warm you up or something, or, well, for example, I, I was camping with my family and my brother is a professor of, you know, in, in the university and he's also recently taken on a, a leadership position in, in a church.
00:05:46.110 --> 00:05:58.990
So I, I absolutely recommended it to him and I talked to him about it and I thought it would be an interesting thing for him to read and also even something to bring his students through.
00:05:58.990 --> 00:05:59.379
Mm-hmm.
00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:00.560
and so I.
00:06:00.904 --> 00:06:02.615
Definitely recommended it to him.
00:06:03.004 --> 00:06:03.125
Right.
00:06:03.154 --> 00:06:13.264
Um, because he's in a position of influencing and, and leading young people who are trying to make sense of the world and what their place is in it.
00:06:13.264 --> 00:06:13.805
Mm-hmm.
00:06:13.810 --> 00:06:19.024
And who are grappling with a lot of kind of big questions about the future.
00:06:19.384 --> 00:06:20.964
So absolutely.
00:06:21.004 --> 00:06:22.415
I recommended it to him.
00:06:23.194 --> 00:06:26.855
I kinda struggled to recommend it to other people.
00:06:26.855 --> 00:06:33.324
I read passages to my husband, but I wouldn't outright like recommend it wholesale to anyone.
00:06:33.324 --> 00:06:33.415
Right.
00:06:33.415 --> 00:06:36.144
'cause I think it would just be kind of lost on them.
00:06:36.204 --> 00:06:39.564
Like it, they wouldn't really see the point.
00:06:40.115 --> 00:06:44.980
I think the appeal is to See the pers, the different perspectives she was talking about, mm-hmm.
00:06:45.060 --> 00:06:46.879
Her perspectives on what's happening in the world.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.420
I think that's very kind of universally interesting.
00:06:51.110 --> 00:06:54.420
But like I said, it's like the kind of the call to action, like, right.
00:06:54.589 --> 00:07:04.949
The contribution piece I think would be kind of just because, interesting, like we're still kind of in this insular, We're just kind of trying to protect ourselves a bit.
00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:21.149
We're kind of in this self-protective mode where we're just like, world is going a little nuts, and we're trying to kind of insulate ourselves from that instead of in the mindset of, okay, how can we serve in this capacity or be islands of sanity to those around us?
00:07:21.149 --> 00:07:25.930
So for me it was like a it's a personal growth call to action.
00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:27.189
Like how can I.
00:07:28.420 --> 00:07:44.571
Grow and be in a position to where I can be an island of sanity, which is a term she used isn't part of her call to action and so it just kind of made me aware of the gap between where I am personally and where I would need to be in order to contribute in the way that she is.
00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:47.329
Calling people too, right?
00:07:47.750 --> 00:07:52.100
Yeah, it's interesting'cause I mean, of course like I guess I'm in a leadership role, right?
00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:56.850
So for me, right, that is not a thing that sort of occurred to me.
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:01.079
And this leads to, and, and we have talked about this and we've talked about this on the team.
00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.740
I want us to do another podcast on what is leadership.
00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:05.579
Sure.
00:08:05.610 --> 00:08:09.959
'cause a lot of people don't identify as leaders who actually are leaders.
00:08:10.019 --> 00:08:10.889
They just don't mm-hmm.
00:08:11.370 --> 00:08:12.420
Know what to recognize it.
00:08:12.420 --> 00:08:16.560
So that's a whole separate conversation that we will not dive into here.
00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:23.439
Um, but I, I find it interesting so I think like that is a critical.
00:08:24.220 --> 00:08:26.829
Question though, which is why I wanna do whole podcast on it.
00:08:26.889 --> 00:08:26.980
Mm-hmm.
00:08:27.220 --> 00:08:31.089
Because I see that theme rising over and over and over again.
00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:31.810
Mm-hmm.
00:08:32.049 --> 00:08:33.580
in lots of different facets.
00:08:33.850 --> 00:08:44.115
but back to having this book feel sort of like a, I don't know, like an enlightening to sort of where you are, where things are and where you might want to be, do you.
00:08:45.554 --> 00:08:49.514
Feel like it could do that for other people too.
00:08:51.414 --> 00:09:00.264
To just sort of be like, I'm not a leader, but I get what she's saying and I want to, I want to be able to take action.
00:09:00.625 --> 00:09:01.014
Mm-hmm.
00:09:01.615 --> 00:09:06.985
So something's gotta change in order for me to come back to this book in a year and mm-hmm.
00:09:07.284 --> 00:09:08.184
Or you know what I mean?
00:09:08.184 --> 00:09:09.225
Like do you think Yeah.
00:09:09.225 --> 00:09:15.075
Or do you think it's just On average too, too overwhelming for, so my take on it is that I think this book is amazing.
00:09:15.075 --> 00:09:15.164
Mm-hmm.
00:09:15.404 --> 00:09:16.365
And it definitely mm-hmm.
00:09:17.355 --> 00:09:21.164
made me feel not alone.
00:09:21.764 --> 00:09:22.245
Yes.
00:09:22.245 --> 00:09:24.345
And not crazy in my Yes.
00:09:25.245 --> 00:09:28.215
Dark cynicism that I lived in mm-hmm.
00:09:28.455 --> 00:09:28.845
For a very long time.
00:09:29.804 --> 00:09:34.215
And, and it sort of validated all of that.
00:09:35.654 --> 00:09:42.554
And then gave me this thread of hope that I previously had not been able to see in that mm-hmm.
00:09:42.554 --> 00:09:43.514
Mess, you know?
00:09:43.904 --> 00:09:44.115
Mm-hmm.
00:09:44.195 --> 00:09:54.034
but I agree that recommending it is I would definitely recommend it'cause I, I find it just a really fascinating book.
00:09:54.725 --> 00:10:00.184
And also someone needs to be prepared to be overwhelmed, like, yeah.
00:10:02.345 --> 00:10:06.365
The first time I read this book, I felt dumped into the deep end.
00:10:06.875 --> 00:10:07.164
Yeah.
00:10:07.220 --> 00:10:08.779
like it, it's very overwhelming.
00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:19.289
there's like a lot of information, a lot of it kind of coming at you, and I find it, I'd be like, I, wow, this is a really good point.
00:10:19.769 --> 00:10:24.029
And then, you know, three pages later, oh my gosh, this is a really good point.
00:10:24.029 --> 00:10:27.110
And I would forget the other point because I was yeah, I was just being.
00:10:28.144 --> 00:10:32.014
But all of this new really interesting stuff and my brain just sort of couldn't keep up.
00:10:32.195 --> 00:10:33.365
And then on this, mm-hmm.
00:10:33.365 --> 00:10:37.865
Second, read through having an idea of what was going on.
00:10:38.134 --> 00:10:38.225
Mm-hmm.
00:10:38.230 --> 00:10:48.065
And having been book before, I could pace myself better and sort of absorb the things that I wanted to focus on better.
00:10:48.184 --> 00:10:48.514
Mm-hmm.
00:10:48.845 --> 00:10:54.315
So recommending it to someone, but also maybe having the caveat of just don't.
00:10:54.955 --> 00:10:57.054
Get overwhelmed with the whole thing.
00:10:57.054 --> 00:11:03.835
Take the bits that you want from it and then maybe come back to it again at a, yeah, at a later point.
00:11:03.894 --> 00:11:05.335
'cause it's, it's a lot.
00:11:05.634 --> 00:11:15.254
It's, it's a definitely a huge dump of information and perspective and new ways of thinking and, it can be a little tiring, I think that.
00:11:16.149 --> 00:11:23.740
I'm glad that I read it all the way through, and I felt those feelings of overwhelm and validation as well.
00:11:24.129 --> 00:11:32.269
I would like to read it again, but in, in more of a kind of a devotional kind of journal sort of a way.
00:11:32.629 --> 00:11:32.720
Mm-hmm.
00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:36.710
Like take one, ES read, it's basically a series of essays.
00:11:37.129 --> 00:11:37.220
Mm-hmm.
00:11:37.309 --> 00:11:40.429
And and read one essay at a time.
00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.570
And do and write, write something, you know?
00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:44.571
Right.
00:11:44.576 --> 00:11:44.750
Mm-hmm.
00:11:44.835 --> 00:11:47.299
Like basically journal through it, right.
00:11:47.304 --> 00:11:49.549
Absorb, absorb whatever was happening there.
00:11:49.549 --> 00:11:49.850
Yeah.
00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:50.480
Yeah.
00:11:51.139 --> 00:12:00.649
she does, I mean, she does recommend doing such a thing, you know, like she does, she does prepare you, you know, she's like, this is going to be overwhelming.
00:12:00.649 --> 00:12:01.909
You should take your time.
00:12:02.269 --> 00:12:06.225
That's why there are images through all of those things are, she's aware.
00:12:06.855 --> 00:12:09.075
Totally of, of how o overwhelming it is.
00:12:09.465 --> 00:12:09.855
Yeah.
00:12:09.855 --> 00:12:09.945
Mm-hmm.
00:12:10.184 --> 00:12:16.455
So I, I feel like it's, it's a good book to spend some time with and to study.
00:12:16.875 --> 00:12:16.995
Mm-hmm.
00:12:17.235 --> 00:12:23.304
And if it's not this kind of fast food, quick read sort of a book.
00:12:23.404 --> 00:12:24.815
It's a good study group book.
00:12:24.945 --> 00:12:25.184
Yeah.
00:12:25.205 --> 00:12:25.504
Yeah.
00:12:25.504 --> 00:12:26.014
Over, yeah.
00:12:26.615 --> 00:12:28.414
Over, you know, a couple months.
00:12:28.475 --> 00:12:28.534
Yeah.
00:12:28.835 --> 00:12:34.284
Of like really taking your time to read, think, write, talk about it.
00:12:34.585 --> 00:12:34.674
Mm-hmm.
00:12:34.914 --> 00:12:37.134
Sort of absorb that thing and then move on to the next.
00:12:37.434 --> 00:12:37.914
Absolutely.
00:12:37.914 --> 00:12:41.934
I feel like that would actually be a really cool mm-hmm.
00:12:41.945 --> 00:12:45.294
Cool process, uh, to do with this book in particular.
00:12:45.955 --> 00:12:47.075
I absolutely agree.
00:12:47.595 --> 00:12:52.075
I would definitely recommend it as a study group discussion book.
00:12:52.565 --> 00:12:53.735
I think you, it's.
00:12:54.710 --> 00:12:59.149
Hmm, this gives, definitely gives me an idea to try and start something like this.
00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:02.539
'cause I think it would be a, a fun way to get through this book.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:03.289
Fun.
00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:03.379
Mm-hmm.
00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:04.519
It, yeah.
00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:12.669
do you, so you were saying in terms of the call to action didn't resonate as well'cause you weren't, you're like, where, how, where, how, what?
00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:28.409
And then, so I'm just curious, is there a takeaway from, for you, From the book or an, an action you do wanna take or a thing that you were like, I'll take this one thing from it and sort of carry forward with this for a little while, kind of a thing.
00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:30.360
Is there anything like that that came out of it for you?
00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:31.500
Sure.
00:13:31.549 --> 00:13:41.990
I think that the, the thing I took away from it was that there's an alternative to this feeling of being, that you're being swept along this current of life.
00:13:42.514 --> 00:13:46.654
At a, you know, I did a lot of whitewater rafting in my youth.
00:13:46.654 --> 00:13:46.745
Mm-hmm.
00:13:47.524 --> 00:13:50.794
And it feels like that's how life feels for me right now.
00:13:51.004 --> 00:14:03.725
And it's felt like that for a long time, where I'm just being swept along and you're just doing your best to avoid obstacles and stay in the boat and when you fall out of the raft, getting back into it as quickly as possible.
00:14:03.725 --> 00:14:11.345
So that's how, that's the feeling I have in this kind of anxiety, you know, kind of.
00:14:11.764 --> 00:14:14.615
Thrilling anxiety of survival, you know?
00:14:14.945 --> 00:14:15.034
Mm-hmm.
00:14:15.095 --> 00:14:23.705
And that's kind of lessening as you know, things have kind of calmed down in my mind anyway.
00:14:24.065 --> 00:14:24.184
Mm-hmm.
00:14:24.605 --> 00:14:33.634
and so just the alternative being to be an island of sanity and to kind of yeah.
00:14:33.634 --> 00:14:37.355
That alternative is like a complete contrast to mm-hmm.
00:14:37.865 --> 00:14:39.995
This feeling of being swept along a river.
00:14:40.355 --> 00:14:41.480
So, mm-hmm.
00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:53.470
I find that it's important for me to have people who were those islands and so like I see the benefit of it and how much it's helped me.
00:14:53.740 --> 00:15:00.000
And so To do that in turn for other people is a real, it's a, it's a real challenge.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:05.909
I think that the, the reason why the call to action is hard for me to relate to.
00:15:05.914 --> 00:15:08.279
It's, it's not so much that it's hard for me to relate to.
00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:17.690
It's just, it's such a challenging prospect to think about because I still feel like I'm on the needful end of that, where it's something that I need in my life.
00:15:17.690 --> 00:15:17.691
Mm-hmm.
00:15:18.019 --> 00:15:21.700
And to turn around and be that for someone else is that.
00:15:22.659 --> 00:15:29.980
That seems like a no, uh, good thing to do, whether or not I, you know, and really hard to do, and the challenge and hard to do.
00:15:29.985 --> 00:15:37.629
And so the challenge is, she even says this, like, we need stable people to be islands of sanity.
00:15:37.929 --> 00:15:43.210
And I'm not trying to say I'm unstable, but it feels like, I do feel like mm-hmm.
00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:47.559
My, you know, that there is a, a, a measure of instability.
00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.549
And so the, the reason why the call to action is hard for me is because.
00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:54.009
It's such a challenge to think about.
00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:59.139
It's just, it's not how I've thought of myself or how I can contribute.
00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:08.110
So it's just a real wake up call and it's, it's a, it's a, it's something that I am gonna continue to think about.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:14.309
I do plan on rereading this and going through it a little more slowly and doing some writing along with it, some journaling.
00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:14.399
Mm-hmm.
00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.409
it'd be great to do a discussion group with it too.
00:16:18.409 --> 00:16:19.970
And, you know, yeah.
00:16:19.970 --> 00:16:25.039
Have people to talk about it with because it's just, there's just this gap.
00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:33.860
So the takeaway is yes, there's an alternative to feeling kind of swept along the insanity of this world and that you can actually be, I.
00:16:35.345 --> 00:16:36.365
An island of sanity.
00:16:36.365 --> 00:16:46.075
You can be an advocate for other people and you can, you can serve in, in a world that is kind of crumbling around you.
00:16:46.554 --> 00:16:46.735
Right.
00:16:46.735 --> 00:16:50.544
So that's kind of a heady call to action actually.
00:16:50.784 --> 00:16:51.745
It is, yeah.
00:16:51.865 --> 00:16:52.465
For sure.
00:16:52.705 --> 00:16:58.475
and I would say like the definitely there's essentially this, this.
00:17:00.245 --> 00:17:04.585
Idea of, of creating islands of, of sanity as mm-hmm.
00:17:04.825 --> 00:17:06.474
The world crumbles around us.
00:17:07.674 --> 00:17:13.605
And my take on that because that is like an overwhelming individual task.
00:17:13.875 --> 00:17:18.855
My take on that is an island is not a person, right?
00:17:18.855 --> 00:17:23.414
An island is a community of people who are helping each other.
00:17:24.275 --> 00:17:24.990
Do this hard work.
00:17:24.990 --> 00:17:25.349
Mm-hmm.
00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:26.750
Mm-hmm.
00:17:26.835 --> 00:17:33.720
So that it's not, I have to become this like island of sanity that others can then attach to.
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:39.269
But it's more like, can, can two or three of us hold onto each other Right.
00:17:39.275 --> 00:17:42.329
And help anchor each other mm-hmm.
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:44.309
And help build each other up.
00:17:45.029 --> 00:17:45.359
Yeah.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:47.160
You know, and, and like that.
00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:50.250
And like, I think that's where, for me, that's really.
00:17:51.869 --> 00:17:56.400
What the community part of this is that she's speaking of is like mm-hmm.
00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:59.009
You're not gonna do this alone.
00:17:59.670 --> 00:18:00.240
Yeah.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.240
And how do we, you know, provide this?
00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.460
But like, you know, nobody's perfect.
00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:09.059
Nobody's gonna be able to be this perfect island of sanity themselves.
00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:17.670
But if you have multiple people who are working together to create this island of sanity, you don't have to hold it up a hundred percent of the time all by yourself.
00:18:18.105 --> 00:18:19.244
and, and support everybody.
00:18:19.244 --> 00:18:22.154
Then you can like get tired and others will support you.
00:18:22.934 --> 00:18:23.234
Right.
00:18:23.234 --> 00:18:24.734
And pass it around, you know?
00:18:25.365 --> 00:18:25.545
yeah.
00:18:25.545 --> 00:18:28.545
That does sound a a lot more appealing.
00:18:29.025 --> 00:18:36.484
Trying to transform myself into some sort of magical superhero beacon of foundation doesn't seem possible.
00:18:36.484 --> 00:18:36.875
Totally.
00:18:37.234 --> 00:18:37.654
Yeah.
00:18:38.285 --> 00:18:43.025
I think my takeaway again, beyond sort of what you're saying, like this, this idea of.
00:18:44.164 --> 00:18:49.755
It's all going to hell in a hand basket, but here is something that you can still do that is mm-hmm.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.144
That is meaningful in the midst of that.
00:18:52.204 --> 00:18:57.420
And that's such a, it was such a, a light that came into my life.
00:18:57.900 --> 00:19:01.049
and so that is just a wonderful takeaway from the book period.
00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:20.920
In terms of more practical aspects of it, I guess the whole, like she has like, you know, chapters and she works soon, but she starts off essentially talking about identity and then perception and all of the various ways that, we identify and that you have to have this permeable barrier.
00:19:21.009 --> 00:19:27.069
So you have to have a barrier, you have to have an identity, but it has to be permeable to information in order to survive.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.269
Yeah.
00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:32.549
That's like sort of the thrust of a lot of her like scientific, uh, social stuff.
00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:32.640
Mm-hmm.
00:19:34.664 --> 00:19:41.174
It just really made me this time reading and it really made me stop and think about what identity is.
00:19:41.884 --> 00:19:45.545
and how do you identify an island of sanity?
00:19:46.414 --> 00:19:50.285
How do you keep that identity healthy?
00:19:51.815 --> 00:19:52.085
Right.
00:19:52.085 --> 00:19:52.145
You know?
00:19:52.234 --> 00:19:56.345
And of course, you know, I mean, I think about this in terms of my whole life.
00:19:56.555 --> 00:19:59.164
Also specifically here.
00:19:59.569 --> 00:20:02.630
Talking about it with, with you and reading in the context of this podcast.
00:20:02.634 --> 00:20:02.670
Mm-hmm.
00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:03.890
I think about it at work, right?
00:20:03.890 --> 00:20:14.789
Like, we have this team or this tiny little company and we have an identity and we, we are building our own island of sanity in mm-hmm.
00:20:14.869 --> 00:20:16.279
In this world right now.
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.990
So what does that actually look like in me in terms of what she's talking about?
00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:22.369
Mm-hmm.
00:20:22.371 --> 00:20:28.569
Um, with identity and perception and This permeability and you know, information is not data.
00:20:29.019 --> 00:20:31.509
Like there, there, those are two different things.
00:20:31.509 --> 00:20:39.680
And so any, anyway, for me, I'm like, huh, this is something I really wanna think about within specific context of identity in my life.
00:20:40.069 --> 00:20:49.295
And you know, we have an upcoming retreat in about a month or so, and I'm like, I, I want us to sit down and talk about our identity Yeah.
00:20:49.595 --> 00:20:51.875
As a, as a group and.
00:20:52.805 --> 00:20:58.954
You know, what we're doing and how we are learning and how are we surviving and how do we, how do we see that happening?
00:20:58.954 --> 00:21:01.444
And just bringing it to consciousness.
00:21:01.934 --> 00:21:02.325
yeah.
00:21:02.505 --> 00:21:08.740
Instead of, I mean, we have our values listed and we have our mission and our vision, but that's part of identity, but that's not all of it.
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:09.690
And I feel like it's a, mm-hmm.
00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:17.809
I think it's a good thing to explore in multiple places, like, you know, within your family, within your, you know, various groups.
00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:18.210
Mm-hmm.
00:21:18.309 --> 00:21:33.940
So that's one of the big things I took out of this reading of it was, Hmm, really just sort of stopping and taking a step back and really thinking about this identity and, and what is an island of sanity from that perspective that she actually raises in the book.
00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:35.589
So yeah, that's, mm-hmm.
00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:38.230
That's what's kicking in my head these days.
00:21:38.234 --> 00:21:38.740
Really good.
00:21:38.740 --> 00:21:38.799
Yeah.
00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.890
We'll be showing up at the team retreat in a few weeks.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.319
I look forward to that.
00:21:47.275 --> 00:21:47.815
Yeah.
00:21:48.595 --> 00:21:52.615
I guess we're, we're already sort of running down on time.
00:21:53.125 --> 00:22:01.585
I mean, we could launch into the whole thing about the progress trap and technology, but I think that's gonna take a lot longer than the time that we have left this podcast.
00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:07.224
Yeah, it's, so that could be an interesting, potentially an interesting future podcast maybe.
00:22:07.585 --> 00:22:20.125
but so, Maybe we can just wrap up with sort of, do you have any other sort of last thoughts or, anything that we might have missed talking about points that you wanted to, to raise?
00:22:21.714 --> 00:22:31.315
I was just remembering one of the, the other kind of main things that I thought was really helpful about this book was the different ways and different perspectives in which that.
00:22:32.125 --> 00:22:36.654
That she provides help, help you to accept reality for what it is.
00:22:37.164 --> 00:22:37.224
Hmm.
00:22:38.005 --> 00:22:40.315
To not be sugarcoating in.
00:22:40.315 --> 00:22:43.194
And she, you know, has this little thing on Hopium.
00:22:43.855 --> 00:22:57.535
And as an optimist myself, like a lot of who really had my optimism dismantled in the past few years, it was, I think it's a really important.
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:11.559
Thing to, especially in the world of generative AI and all of the things, and all of the misinformation and disinformation, and she talks about that in the book as well, and all the propaganda and everything, how.
00:23:12.595 --> 00:23:16.434
How challenging it is to discern reality and Oh yeah.
00:23:16.525 --> 00:23:23.214
To discern truth, and it's so hard and it's getting, it's going to get harder.
00:23:23.545 --> 00:23:30.505
It's really chaotic and intentionally made difficult, it's not even subtle.
00:23:30.684 --> 00:23:34.335
It's like fun for people now to like distort reality, to mess with you.
00:23:34.335 --> 00:23:35.815
It's like entertainment mess with, yeah.
00:23:35.845 --> 00:23:35.934
Mm-hmm.
00:23:36.204 --> 00:23:47.605
So that was a really important, that was one of those validating things like, yeah, it is hard to figure out what is reality and what is the truth.
00:23:47.634 --> 00:23:53.795
And it's very difficult and there's a lot of different disciplines out there.
00:23:53.825 --> 00:23:54.005
Mm-hmm.
00:23:54.345 --> 00:23:57.849
you know, history, science, you know, many different things.
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:07.690
That can contribute to helping us understand how we're perceiving the world and how those lenses affect our perception.
00:24:07.694 --> 00:24:25.539
And just being aware of what, how you're perceiving things so that you can step outside that getting even more perspective, get perspective on your perspective was really kind of meta, you know, to really understand how it is that you're taking in the world.
00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:25.809
And.
00:24:27.144 --> 00:24:48.015
Question that, so that you can be a better, so that you can better understand the actual reality and to not feel like, to be, to be able to contend with that and just accept it instead of sugarcoating it or anything else, like mm-hmm.
00:24:48.585 --> 00:25:10.755
Trying to believe that it's going to be somewhat different and, and I, that really resonated with me and it was something that I felt was critical during the last few years especially with, with the pandemic, is understanding reality like, Yes, this is reality and yes, it's this bad and this is what, how we need to respond and how we need to support each other.
00:25:10.755 --> 00:25:14.515
So in that sense, I absolutely, I think that's what she's saying.
00:25:14.875 --> 00:25:14.964
Mm-hmm.
00:25:15.210 --> 00:25:24.664
Is we need to understand reality and all of its truth and all of its harshness and thus this is how we need to support each other and Right.
00:25:24.845 --> 00:25:25.075
And respond.
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:29.515
But don't pretend this isn't happening and then behave as if it isn't happening.
00:25:29.755 --> 00:25:30.174
Yeah.
00:25:30.414 --> 00:25:30.565
Right.
00:25:30.565 --> 00:25:30.775
That's.
00:25:31.674 --> 00:25:39.855
Yeah, that's where the conspiracy theories, theories and the, and the communities that are just kind of living outside of reality in their own bubbles.
00:25:39.859 --> 00:25:42.734
That's how those are born because they're not accepting reality.
00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:43.545
So, yeah.
00:25:44.174 --> 00:25:44.295
Yeah.
00:25:44.295 --> 00:25:45.855
I would recommend this book if mm-hmm.
00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:48.765
Especially if you can find someone to discuss it with.
00:25:48.769 --> 00:25:48.984
Mm-hmm.
00:25:49.394 --> 00:25:57.404
And if you can read it with someone or like, I'm going to do Spend some time with it and be journaling through it, so mm-hmm.
00:25:57.944 --> 00:26:02.115
understanding that as for an audience of leaders, but you don't necessarily like for me.
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:02.234
Mm-hmm.
00:26:02.315 --> 00:26:05.954
Like, maybe I just am not, maybe I'm a leader and I just don't even know it, you know?
00:26:06.075 --> 00:26:07.424
Oh, and yeah.
00:26:07.755 --> 00:26:10.769
Just not to like, Spoilers, but you are.
00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:13.470
So, but we'll talk about that on another podcast.
00:26:13.470 --> 00:26:14.220
We'll talk about that later.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:14.549
Yeah.
00:26:14.555 --> 00:26:21.900
Because everybody, everybody on this team who's been on this podcast needs to have this conversation apparently again, but yes.
00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:22.440
Yeah.
00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:22.829
Anyway.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:23.609
Yeah.
00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:24.359
Cool.
00:26:24.990 --> 00:26:35.220
And I would say for anybody who's listening to this podcast, if you are curious about this book or if you've read this book and got completely overwhelmed by it, if you want to have.
00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:39.140
Some kind of discussion or study partner or group mm-hmm.
00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:39.549
Or something like that.
00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:42.369
Reach out to us and let us know, like we are, yeah.
00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:43.720
We are down for that.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:50.380
And for sure, I would love to have other people read this book and talk about it and try to Yes.
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:51.880
Muddle through it together, so.
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:52.380
Mm-hmm.
00:26:53.109 --> 00:27:00.930
Anyway, if you're listening and you're interested, drop us a line and and we will, we will definitely respond and, and mm-hmm.
00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:01.819
Help with open arms.
00:27:03.714 --> 00:27:05.454
Well thank you very much ma'am.
00:27:05.454 --> 00:27:06.295
Thanks for reading it.
00:27:06.414 --> 00:27:08.275
Thanks for, for getting through it.
00:27:08.275 --> 00:27:08.335
Yeah.
00:27:08.335 --> 00:27:14.650
And and the conversation and you know, obviously there will be more conversing on this one for sure.
00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:15.559
absolutely.
00:27:15.619 --> 00:27:16.400
Coming soon.
00:27:17.634 --> 00:27:24.595
Hey, so thanks for listening and let us know if you have questions, comments, or suggestions for what you'd like to hear more about.
00:27:25.285 --> 00:27:30.095
You can find all of the various ways to reach us on our website at osiolabs.com.
00:27:30.474 --> 00:27:37.015
That's O S I O L A B S.com.
00:27:37.644 --> 00:27:42.384
Also, please make sure to subscribe to the podcast on your podcast provider of choice.
00:27:42.984 --> 00:27:44.184
We'll catch you on the next episode.
