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Joe Newbert: Hey there, welcome
to episode 23 of the polar and
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Joe Show. If you're new here,
here's a quick rundown of what
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you need to know. It's 24
minutes of raw business analysis
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and change talk. And when the
countdown timer buzzes, we're
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done. I'm Joe Newbert. And as
always, I'm alongside means my B
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A F F. Paula Bell. How's it
Paula? Please tell us what's up
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in this episode.
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Paula Bell: It is going great.
Joe. Summer has been good even
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though it's about to end here in
the state soon schools back in
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session, but everything's going
great. I'm healing up my foots
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doing better. So you know, can't
complain can't complain. So I'm
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happy about that. Yeah. It's
great to co host with you, of
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course again today. And what's
in this session today. Today is
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all about storytelling. We have
two wonderful gentlemen. We're
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going to talk to us about
storytelling. We have Ian
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Richards located in the UK. He
works for Barragan, and he is
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the Director of Business
Analysis at Peregrine. And then
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we have Phillip Hendricks, who
is located in Belgium. And he is
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a speaker, trainer, coach and
author business analysis. So
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Philip, you and I do the same
work. So that is that is
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awesome. I'm excited about this
session and the conversation
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that we'll have today. So
welcome Ian and Phillip.
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Joe Newbert: Thank you. It's
good to have you guys on the
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show. We're very keen to hear
your story telling us how we can
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sort of maybe craft better
stories when we go about our
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business analysis work. So
thanks for joining us today to
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help share your expertise.
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Paula Bell: Yes, yes, yes. Well,
let me kick it off. I have a
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question. I can start us off
with our first question. And
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either one of you can answer.
But what are the benefits of
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storytelling as a technique, you
might even want to talk a little
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bit about what is storytelling
for those who may not even know
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they've heard the term, but
they're really not familiar with
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what it is never know.
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Filip Hendrickx: Well, let me
perhaps start with a very small
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example. As a hobby, I do a lot
of running. And last weekend, I
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was at a running event. And I
met someone I'd never met
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before. And we got talking and
explained to me that he had been
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doing a few marathons a few
years ago. And then he ran 175
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kilometers in one go.
Interesting, but it's not very
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sticky. But actually, what
happened was that a few years
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back, his father had died at the
age of 75. So we decided in
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honor of my father, I want to do
a 75k run. And he created the
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route that spelled that. That's
a story that's
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Ian Richards: that's good story
or
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Filip Hendrickx: having a story
as short as this one was, makes
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people remember, and makes a
brings things to life. And as VA
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professionals, we have a lot of
interesting knowledge. But if we
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can wrap a story around it, then
it will stick then will people
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will remember it. And people
will probably also more act upon
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it. Which is for me why
storytelling is so valuable and
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important.
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Ian Richards: And it's nothing
new is it? I mean, the
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storytelling has been there
through the ages, we, as a
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child, I learned about Aesop's
Fables. And there were some key
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messages in that. Do you know
they've stood the test of time?
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So it's about things sticking in
the brain? When you're, I guess
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when you're on transmit mode,
it's better to wrap a story
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around it because it's
entertaining and people will
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will remember it.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, that's really
nice. I enjoy your story about
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the runner. I mean, I feel like
I'm gonna remember that story.
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Now for a good while to come. It
really does. Stick as you say.
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And I mean, in you mentioned,
yeah, I mean, stories have been
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around since the cavemen right,
probably started off with
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pictures before it became words.
Won't you sort of share with us
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like what are the constructs of
a good story? What what do I
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need to think about in terms of
structures in terms of the
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contents of a story? Is there
any kind of template that sort
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of works?
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Ian Richards: Well, I guess
there are key components. And I
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think I mentioned in, in, in
the, in the book that that we've
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written that they're in a tribe
in in Africa and nomadic tribe,
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which go on the kind of big
walks, they take people with
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them, and they don't have they
don't have any TV and they sit
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around the campfire. And they
talk and tell stories and they
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say, if somebody can't tell an
interesting story, they don't
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listen to them. So it needs to
be interesting for me obviously
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need to start and end and for me
It needs, it needs to engage
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with people it needs, it needs
to have a takeaway as well. So
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people need to get something
from it. If you some people say
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every now and again, a kind of
story with no end in is kind of
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what does that mean? You know,
there needs to be a point of
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that. But I guess when we talk
about stories, if they can have
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some maybe some dramas and
intrigue doesn't have to some
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humor often works. So yeah,
there's many components. And I
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think there's no set component
that it needs, it needs to be
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adapted for the situation and
the message.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah. What I
what I would add is a beginning
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for me is important that you
kind of have a setting the
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scene, what is this going to be
about, you are trying to explain
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something for a given situation
or context. And it has to have
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some direction, you have to kind
of know where you are heading.
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But you don't have to know the
details of the end just yet. And
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I think that's for me kind of a
takeaway for professional life
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as well. If you do a project, if
you can predict the end, then
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you're not open for surprises
along the way. So having the
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direction is important. But it
can be surprising near the ends.
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So for me, that's kind of the
balance between having clear
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what it's going to be about but
not too clear.
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Paula Bell: That's actually a
great what you're saying Phillip
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is actually a great segue into
business analysis, right?
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Because business analysis is
gray, it's not always black and
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white, you don't always know
what you're going to encounter,
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you can start with a scope or
beginning point. And then by the
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time you get to the end, it
could have changed, or things
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could have morphed or less
strategies could have changed.
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And so I think there's that
relation there. As you talk
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about the constructs and the
components, it does relate back
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to the work that we do as
business analysts. So how and
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where can we use stories to
effectively do our job as a
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business analyst.
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Ian Richards: So for me, I think
that there's a different side of
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storytelling that's really
useful for business analysts,
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and that's getting other people
to talk. And sometimes they you
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know, some people are a little
bit nervous talking to you, they
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don't really know why as
business analysts, but I've
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walked into situations which are
operational call handlers. And
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I'll say something like, tell me
about the worst situation you
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had, or tell me about the best
the most enjoyable part of your
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work. And that gets them
talking, gets them to engage
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that more, but there are also,
so for me, there are techniques
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that dado day in the life of
that's about storytelling. Tell
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me about that your life and how
your typical workday for you.
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What do you do? Do you know how
does this process work? You tell
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me about what you do. So it's
about engaging getting them to
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talk and figure out a way of you
getting that information that
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you need, away from them by
asking open questions.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, and
another often use technique is
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user stories. They're called
stories for a reason. I read a
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lot of user stories, but I often
miss the story behind it. And if
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I don't know the story behind
it, if I don't understand where
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it comes from, if I can't
empathize with the stakeholders
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that will benefit from the user
story, then it's going to be
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much more difficult to implement
it well. It's going to be it's
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not going to be easy for me to
really stand in the shoes of the
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other person and make us create
a solution that is suited for
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for their problem of challenge.
So maybe we need to create more
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stories when we create user
stories. And it can be very
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small stories. I think the small
ones are very powerful. But
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there's always a story behind
it. And if you can grasp that
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story, then I think you will be
able to create better solutions.
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Paula Bell: I think you can feel
like this.
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Ian Richards: So with personas
as well, you've got a backstory,
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how many when you create the
personas, you create a backstory
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for them so that you can
understand and empathize with
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them. I mean, then you can do a
customer journey map. Do you
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know it's the same? It's the
story. So it's again, getting
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the experience? Sorry, Paula?
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Paula Bell: Oh, no, no, that was
great. Because you were saying
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personas, I was about to say the
same goes with business process.
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I think as you do processes and
you try to understand how
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processes work, there's a story
behind that process. There's a
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story behind that pain. So as we
can see here, there's a lot of
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different touch points in the
tools and techniques that we use
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that can leverage stories or
understanding the story behind
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it can make us more efficient.
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Ian Richards: I've got a story
about a time where I was in the
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Old Bailey which is really old.
A courtroom is the old the
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biggest courtroom in London. And
I work in the custodian areas
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and the escorts the prisoner
escorts wouldn't talk to me.
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They said, we've seen people,
transformational stuff like you
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come and go, you know, and
nothing happens. There's no
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change, we don't benefit. And I
had to empathize with them and
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said, Yep, probably, but I'm
here to stay. You know, tell me
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about what's the biggest pain.
And what I did was a day in the
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life of, and they would say,
Well, the problem is, you know,
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this, this happens. And
sometimes this happened. And
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before long, they were telling
me stories, because they started
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to open up to me, because I put
something visual on the board.
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And I said, help me fill this
out. So it's getting them to
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talk, as well.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. I think
there's a couple of sides to
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this, right. I'm hearing you
about personas, customer journey
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maps, business processes, right,
their ways of telling stories,
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from one perspective, or a
different perspective, getting
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people to tell you like, Tell me
about a time that went really
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badly or tell me about a time
that went really well, because
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you start to get more detail
then. So it's a great way for
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getting a lot more tacit
information as well, isn't it
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sort of encouraging people
because they're relaxed. So I
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think that's really great. So
I'm hearing from an
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investigation perspective,
stories working for me to be
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able to, like investigate be
able to elicit, I feel like
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there's another side to this as
well, but that perhaps just need
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to telling. So as much as
listening to stories and
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encouraging people to tell us
stories, we perhaps need to tell
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stories, to to to executives, to
management and to people we need
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to sell, I guess is the word
that we need to lead to? How can
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we sell using stories if you've
got any, perhaps tips for us
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that
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Filip Hendrickx: I think this
may be an example where you do
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start with the end in mind.
Because executives typically
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don't have that much time.
They're busy people. I mean,
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we're all busy people. But if
you can grab them for a few
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minutes, start with what you
need from them with how they can
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help you or how you can help
them and dive into the details
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of the story, as they asked you
for more information. So I guess
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you have to flip it on its head
a little bit here
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Ian Richards: in the picture and
say what a wonderful world it
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would be. If you had this and
you have that ticket journey to
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get there. And you'll have to
help me out. Help me get there.
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But selling, selling the dream
selling the assessment of Target
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Operating Model, isn't it,
selling the dream? And then you
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have a roadmap of how you're
going to get the
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Joe Newbert: pictures and words
write pictures and words coming
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back? Just because you dropped
in the word information there,
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fill it. data, how what other
techniques, can we blend with
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storytelling because I feel like
the best technique is always a
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combination of techniques or
blend of them. And I feel like
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data could probably play quite a
big role in a story.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yes, when you
say data, I think of two things.
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The first is information, we
often get lost in the data. But
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what is the information? If you
take a step back? What are the
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key concepts in our organization
that are relevant? Can we
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identify them? And can we have a
shared definition of them, ask
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around your organization, five
people to define customer you
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will get five different answers.
But also, we have so much data
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and so much statistics,
visualizing them, so that it's
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understandable so that the data
tells you a story. I think
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that's also a key elements. That
doesn't get always the attention
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it needs. We see a lot of boring
graphics that don't really say
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much what the data means. So I
think they're definitely the
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combination of story and
visualization is key.
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Ian Richards: So there's I'm not
sure whether you get Mars in
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South Africa, you will remember
Mars Bars No joke, I'm
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Joe Newbert: sure you will. So
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Ian Richards: um, they had data
information that showed them
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that their their sales were
going down in Summit. So they
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change and this is in store I
think changed one of the things
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in that bar. And that was a
screen that put ice cream in
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instead of the new car and sales
went up in the summer. So that
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kind of that data showed that
that story and they took action
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because of it.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, that's really
nice. I love maths bar ice
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creams. I haven't had those in
years in fact, okay.
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Paula Bell: Very, very nice. So
I'm assuming Joe, you didn't
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have any other follow up items
on that. On that piece. As you
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talked about information and
data, I don't want to jump in if
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you've had some, I know
sometimes you'll be percolating
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inside. Just want to make sure.
Make sure
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Joe Newbert: the floor is all
yours. Please take.
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Paula Bell: Okay, so what I
would like to talk about a
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little bit is can you give some
basic principles that our
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audience can go away with, when
they listen to this pod? And
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practice actually apply things?
Maybe some best practices,
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things that have worked really
well? As far as how do you tell
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a story? How do you receive a
story in pretty much bring us
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home with some best practices.
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Ian Richards: So I think that a
really good technique when using
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storytelling is to back it up
visually. I always tell all the
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other business owners that will
listen to me to work visually,
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especially when they go into a
new, I guess, a new project or a
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new workplace, when they don't
know the domain knowledge that
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much to create a rich picture
and to communicate through that.
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And to build it up. It's never,
it's never finished as a rich
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picture. It's always a work in
progress, and to build it up
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with stories that people tell
you. But the stories and just
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talking need to be recorded,
because they're in the brain is
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how we record that down and I
oversee work visually.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, I would
add to that, co create a story.
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Because if the story is CO
created by a group of people,
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there will be much more
engagement and involvement and
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enthusiasm to actually make it
happen at the vision that you
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have created to make it happen.
So it's maybe not a technique on
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how to do storytelling. But if
you work together, you will get
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better stories, and you will get
everyone on boards, which I
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think is a key element of the
communicative and collaborative
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part of stories.
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Ian Richards: And that's part of
sales, isn't it? If you can make
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it their idea, or your idea can
be the clients idea, then it's
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much, much more better chance of
success.
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Paula Bell: Do you have any
advice on individuals who might
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be introverted, who are very
uncomfortable with either
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telling stories or pulling out
stories or those individuals who
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don't like to speak up? Who
you've got to really work hard
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to get them to tell the story?
Do you have any best practices
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for individuals who might
encounter these things?
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Filip Hendrickx: So I was just
going to say, a key element of
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00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:52,710
CO creating a story is
listening. And typically,
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introverts are very good at
listening and understanding what
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people are about and what's
behind. What's the background of
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people. There is a takeaway
summary in the book that says
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everyone has a history, and the
HPI is in in brackets. So it's
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the history of people, it's a
story they have to tell. It's
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about listening, and then
reflecting back what you have
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heard. Did I understand I
understood this? Is that
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correct? Is that what you're
trying to say? And the story
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will will come out of it. I
think
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Ian Richards: I would add to
that. And if you're an
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introvert, I would probably talk
about what you know, first
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football team, or what whatever
interests you have and build up
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rapport that way find out what
the you know what they like, and
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then you can branch out into
that once you've got a little
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bit more confidence that, that
you've got something in common
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with that person, or you've
spent that time building that
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rapport.
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Joe Newbert: So that's, that's a
nice tips there. I feel like
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you've dropped a few breadcrumbs
for me. So maybe it's time that
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I held up the book, right? CO
created by you to a story about
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business analysis, right? You
mentioned small powerful stories
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earlier this this, you could
almost read each little Chapter,
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Chapter almost seems sometimes
too big, too big a block,
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perhaps to call it but you could
read each little component in
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00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:25,440
there. individually. It's a
wonderful set of a story. Tell
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us a little bit about about the
book, the idea behind the book,
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00:19:29,370 --> 00:19:32,490
maybe how you two got together
to write the book.
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Ian Richards: Okay, so I've
always wanted to write a book.
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Personally. I've always found it
easy to write. But I knew I
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wouldn't create some
masterpiece, you know, so I
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wanted to write Blimey, I wanted
to write about what I know about
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so it was business analysis, but
I didn't want to write it on my
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own. And it spoke to Philip and
we'd share some ideas and hold
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him in high regard as a business
architect, so couldn't come In
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00:20:00,089 --> 00:20:03,599
fact, I said fancy writing the
book. And he said, Yeah, okay,
316
00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:08,909
great. So we got together in
London in an Airbnb for us five
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00:20:08,909 --> 00:20:13,259
nights. And we had a big
whiteboard with lots of lots of
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00:20:13,289 --> 00:20:18,539
post it notes, we scoped it out.
And the next three years was
319
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:22,469
writing that book. ripstop
start, but we were both busy
320
00:20:22,469 --> 00:20:26,549
people. So it looked probably if
we look at word count, I
321
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:31,589
probably wrote about 80% of it,
because I guess I'm, it's my
322
00:20:31,589 --> 00:20:35,909
first language when it's not
Phillips, but we're feeling came
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00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:41,129
in was the 25 techniques that we
have. He did her work in that
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00:20:41,129 --> 00:20:44,699
and the fresh trucks those two
anything, Dr. Philip?
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00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:47,820
Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, that's
right, you forgot an important
326
00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:58,650
part, which is beer. Beer in the
pub in London. I leave it to the
327
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,820
potential reader to discover
what that key element is. But
328
00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:07,320
yeah, so after the week in
London, we had like, an overview
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00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,940
of a little over 20 chapters,
knowing what is each chapter
330
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:14,760
about what is the main character
of this chapter? What are they
331
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:21,420
going to do? And then the
challenging part was creating
332
00:21:21,420 --> 00:21:25,290
that storyline, weaving in the
techniques in a way that makes
333
00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:30,570
it that keeps the reading easy,
because it's if you explain what
334
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:33,840
a certain process model looks
like, and how how you created,
335
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,900
it's tends to get boring
quickly, we did not want to
336
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:40,500
create yet another textbook,
have plenty of decent textbooks
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00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:42,960
out there. So we want to create
something different. So that was
338
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,830
really challenging. How do we
get to be a content into the
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00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:51,450
story? How do we get the
visuals, the models in such a
340
00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:53,940
shape that they're
understandable by themselves
341
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,850
without needing a lot of
explanation, and still
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insightful enough as an example,
for readers to apply themselves?
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00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:05,820
So that took quite a bit of time
and a bit of sandboarding?
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Between us? And maybe
interestingly, obviously, we had
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some important discussion
points, like the business case,
346
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how big should a business case
be? We have different viewpoints
347
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on that. And then we realize
that this is actually a
348
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conversation that is happening
inside organizations every day.
349
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So we decided not to choose the
right kind of business case, but
350
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introduce the conversation as
part of the story in the book,
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because that's the conversation
RBAs will be having as well. So
352
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they can see both viewpoints and
try to find what is the best
353
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approach in their specific
situation.
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Joe Newbert: That's, it's really
nice how you've done that
355
00:22:46,830 --> 00:22:49,950
you've, you've taken people's
thoughts out of their own head
356
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and put them down on paper. And
through that they of course, now
357
00:22:53,310 --> 00:22:57,390
feel very normal in the kinds of
questions that they they have
358
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bouncing around. So I think it's
a great a great help for the
359
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community.
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Ian Richards: We wanted to make
it as well, soldier, we wanted
361
00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:07,830
to make it fun and different. So
we had avatars like we did when
362
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:12,660
we read in boxes, children.
We've got humor in there, we've
363
00:23:12,660 --> 00:23:15,420
got even got romance in there.
So if anybody likes a good
364
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,960
story, but once you learn
something, then it may be the
365
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:19,560
book for them.
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00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,500
Joe Newbert: Yeah. So how much
of these stories are based on
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00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:28,170
real life experience that are in
there?
368
00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:33,899
Ian Richards: There's quite a
few. There's, I've done some
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00:23:33,929 --> 00:23:37,559
great projects. And from my
perspective, I've created we've
370
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:41,969
created a character called
David, which is he's a bit
371
00:23:41,969 --> 00:23:45,539
boring, but he's the most like
me, unfortunately, in terms of
372
00:23:45,539 --> 00:23:50,159
characters, and there's a lot of
me and David and he's worked in
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00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:54,119
that courtroom and independence
part of the court. He brings a
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00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,289
lot of that learning Abby is x
forces and I'm in the British
375
00:23:58,289 --> 00:24:01,439
Army Reserve so there's a plenty
of me in there. There's plenty
376
00:24:01,439 --> 00:24:05,729
of Philip you can say your
techniques that you've used.
377
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:09,030
Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, the
techniques are inspired by real
378
00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:12,930
life cases obviously. Some of
the people as well in the book
379
00:24:12,930 --> 00:24:19,200
are based on people within my
family which is fun and which
380
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,270
makes it easier to write as
well. Because you relate to
381
00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:24,900
those people
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Joe Newbert: I feel like well
what's that those little words
383
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you get at the end of the movie
where it says you know nobody in
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00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:37,679
this book is based on any like
real life events
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00:24:41,789 --> 00:24:47,759
Ian Richards: we know the boring
establish that. Are you the
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00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:48,029
person
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Joe Newbert: you did hit a
buzzer? Yeah. Very tuned in
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00:24:52,739 --> 00:24:57,689
ears. Which brings us to a
close. The buzzer always does
389
00:24:57,689 --> 00:25:02,489
cut us off but I want us I want
to say thank you for joining us
390
00:25:02,489 --> 00:25:05,759
it is, it's been nice to talk
about the stories really, you
391
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:08,549
know, it's gonna get me thinking
about because I think stories
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00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:11,429
need to weave in and out of
things, don't they? And they
393
00:25:11,429 --> 00:25:17,279
take a bit of skill to do. So I
will, I will slowly build up my
394
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:20,939
confidence much like Ian
suggested and try and do more of
395
00:25:20,939 --> 00:25:23,519
this. Paula, what did you What
did you get out of this?
396
00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:28,409
Paula Bell: Well, I got a few
things, right? I liked how the
397
00:25:28,409 --> 00:25:31,649
story, the construct of the
story, you don't have to have
398
00:25:31,649 --> 00:25:35,759
everything known. You don't have
to have all the details. You
399
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:39,689
just go with what you know. And
you build as you go, which I
400
00:25:39,689 --> 00:25:44,009
think was a great alignment to
what we do as business analysts.
401
00:25:44,219 --> 00:25:46,919
It's not just about you talking,
but it's also about getting
402
00:25:46,919 --> 00:25:51,449
other people to talk. So you
have to listen. And through that
403
00:25:51,449 --> 00:25:55,829
listening, you'll you'll gain
some some, hopefully some great
404
00:25:55,829 --> 00:26:00,209
seats. And then it's about not
only investigation, but showing
405
00:26:00,209 --> 00:26:03,149
information and doing it
visually. So I think there were
406
00:26:03,149 --> 00:26:07,469
a lot of great touch points that
I got from from the from the
407
00:26:07,469 --> 00:26:11,009
conversation today, that I'll
keep in mind as I do things too.
408
00:26:11,159 --> 00:26:14,639
And know your audience. Know who
your audiences that you're
409
00:26:14,939 --> 00:26:16,139
working on the stories with.
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00:26:17,069 --> 00:26:20,939
Joe Newbert: Yeah, Nicely put.
Thank you, Paula. Right. I'm
411
00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:25,289
going to hand it over to you,
Philip, you can close us out.
412
00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:29,189
Tell us about you and Ian, where
we can get a hold of you where
413
00:26:29,189 --> 00:26:31,529
we can get a hold of the book as
well, please.
414
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:36,659
Filip Hendrickx: Yes, so thanks
for the opportunity. The links
415
00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,559
are here. So Ian and myself,
we're both on LinkedIn. And we
416
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:45,539
are more than happy to share our
experience or thoughts or give
417
00:26:45,539 --> 00:26:48,629
feedback, whether it's on
business analysis, or a few
418
00:26:48,629 --> 00:26:52,259
maybe think about writing your
own book. And you want to hear
419
00:26:53,189 --> 00:26:56,459
how easy or difficult it is and
how to go about it. Feel free to
420
00:26:56,459 --> 00:27:00,689
get in touch with us on LinkedIn
or by email. And if you're
421
00:27:00,779 --> 00:27:03,659
interested in the book, you can
check it out at our website,
422
00:27:03,659 --> 00:27:09,089
brainy glue.com. There is a link
to purchase a PDF copy which is
423
00:27:09,089 --> 00:27:14,309
basically emailed to me a couple
of links to Amazon where you can
424
00:27:14,309 --> 00:27:18,989
get the Kindle version and the
paperback version. And there is
425
00:27:18,989 --> 00:27:22,559
also a 16 Chapter sample which
you can freely download the
426
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,609
check it out before you actually
buy the book and see if you like
427
00:27:26,609 --> 00:27:29,609
it. So those other places you
can go to.
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00:27:32,609 --> 00:27:36,689
Joe Newbert: Lastly, thank you
very much, Philip. Definitely a
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00:27:37,109 --> 00:27:40,649
book worth checking out. But
Thanks Ian and Philip for
430
00:27:40,649 --> 00:27:44,309
joining us. And thank you for
tuning in. We appreciate your
431
00:27:44,309 --> 00:27:48,089
support. You can subscribe to
the polar and Joe Show on your
432
00:27:48,089 --> 00:27:53,249
pod player of choice iTunes,
Amazon Music, Spotify, YouTube,
433
00:27:53,249 --> 00:27:57,359
and more. And if you enjoyed the
show, please do help pass the
434
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pod by leaving a review and a
five star rating. You can keep
435
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the riff going by leaving your
comments over on the blog at 168
436
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:09,659
dot FM that's the words one six
and eight not the numbers.
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Follow us as at 168 on LinkedIn,
Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
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We'd love to hear your take on
storytelling in business
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analysis. Ian Phillip Poehler
and I will join you there. Until
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then take care and keep growing
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Joe Newbert: Hey there, welcome
to episode 23 of the polar and
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Joe Show. If you're new here,
here's a quick rundown of what
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you need to know. It's 24
minutes of raw business analysis
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and change talk. And when the
countdown timer buzzes, we're
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done. I'm Joe Newbert. And as
always, I'm alongside means my B
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A F F. Paula Bell. How's it
Paula? Please tell us what's up
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in this episode.
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Paula Bell: It is going great.
Joe. Summer has been good even
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though it's about to end here in
the state soon schools back in
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session, but everything's going
great. I'm healing up my foots
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doing better. So you know, can't
complain can't complain. So I'm
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happy about that. Yeah. It's
great to co host with you, of
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course again today. And what's
in this session today. Today is
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all about storytelling. We have
two wonderful gentlemen. We're
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going to talk to us about
storytelling. We have Ian
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Richards located in the UK. He
works for Barragan, and he is
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the Director of Business
Analysis at Peregrine. And then
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we have Phillip Hendricks, who
is located in Belgium. And he is
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a speaker, trainer, coach and
author business analysis. So
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Philip, you and I do the same
work. So that is that is
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awesome. I'm excited about this
session and the conversation
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that we'll have today. So
welcome Ian and Phillip.
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Joe Newbert: Thank you. It's
good to have you guys on the
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show. We're very keen to hear
your story telling us how we can
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sort of maybe craft better
stories when we go about our
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business analysis work. So
thanks for joining us today to
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help share your expertise.
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Paula Bell: Yes, yes, yes. Well,
let me kick it off. I have a
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question. I can start us off
with our first question. And
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either one of you can answer.
But what are the benefits of
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storytelling as a technique, you
might even want to talk a little
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bit about what is storytelling
for those who may not even know
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they've heard the term, but
they're really not familiar with
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what it is never know.
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Filip Hendrickx: Well, let me
perhaps start with a very small
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example. As a hobby, I do a lot
of running. And last weekend, I
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was at a running event. And I
met someone I'd never met
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before. And we got talking and
explained to me that he had been
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doing a few marathons a few
years ago. And then he ran 175
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kilometers in one go.
Interesting, but it's not very
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sticky. But actually, what
happened was that a few years
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back, his father had died at the
age of 75. So we decided in
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honor of my father, I want to do
a 75k run. And he created the
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route that spelled that. That's
a story that's
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Ian Richards: that's good story
or
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Filip Hendrickx: having a story
as short as this one was, makes
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people remember, and makes a
brings things to life. And as VA
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professionals, we have a lot of
interesting knowledge. But if we
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can wrap a story around it, then
it will stick then will people
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will remember it. And people
will probably also more act upon
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it. Which is for me why
storytelling is so valuable and
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important.
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Ian Richards: And it's nothing
new is it? I mean, the
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storytelling has been there
through the ages, we, as a
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child, I learned about Aesop's
Fables. And there were some key
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messages in that. Do you know
they've stood the test of time?
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So it's about things sticking in
the brain? When you're, I guess
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when you're on transmit mode,
it's better to wrap a story
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around it because it's
entertaining and people will
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will remember it.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, that's really
nice. I enjoy your story about
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the runner. I mean, I feel like
I'm gonna remember that story.
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Now for a good while to come. It
really does. Stick as you say.
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And I mean, in you mentioned,
yeah, I mean, stories have been
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around since the cavemen right,
probably started off with
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pictures before it became words.
Won't you sort of share with us
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like what are the constructs of
a good story? What what do I
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need to think about in terms of
structures in terms of the
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contents of a story? Is there
any kind of template that sort
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of works?
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Ian Richards: Well, I guess
there are key components. And I
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think I mentioned in, in, in
the, in the book that that we've
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written that they're in a tribe
in in Africa and nomadic tribe,
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which go on the kind of big
walks, they take people with
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them, and they don't have they
don't have any TV and they sit
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around the campfire. And they
talk and tell stories and they
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say, if somebody can't tell an
interesting story, they don't
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listen to them. So it needs to
be interesting for me obviously
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need to start and end and for me
It needs, it needs to engage
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with people it needs, it needs
to have a takeaway as well. So
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people need to get something
from it. If you some people say
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every now and again, a kind of
story with no end in is kind of
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what does that mean? You know,
there needs to be a point of
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that. But I guess when we talk
about stories, if they can have
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some maybe some dramas and
intrigue doesn't have to some
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humor often works. So yeah,
there's many components. And I
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think there's no set component
that it needs, it needs to be
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adapted for the situation and
the message.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah. What I
what I would add is a beginning
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for me is important that you
kind of have a setting the
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scene, what is this going to be
about, you are trying to explain
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something for a given situation
or context. And it has to have
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some direction, you have to kind
of know where you are heading.
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But you don't have to know the
details of the end just yet. And
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I think that's for me kind of a
takeaway for professional life
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as well. If you do a project, if
you can predict the end, then
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you're not open for surprises
along the way. So having the
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direction is important. But it
can be surprising near the ends.
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So for me, that's kind of the
balance between having clear
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what it's going to be about but
not too clear.
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Paula Bell: That's actually a
great what you're saying Phillip
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is actually a great segue into
business analysis, right?
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Because business analysis is
gray, it's not always black and
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white, you don't always know
what you're going to encounter,
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you can start with a scope or
beginning point. And then by the
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time you get to the end, it
could have changed, or things
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could have morphed or less
strategies could have changed.
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And so I think there's that
relation there. As you talk
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about the constructs and the
components, it does relate back
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to the work that we do as
business analysts. So how and
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where can we use stories to
effectively do our job as a
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business analyst.
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Ian Richards: So for me, I think
that there's a different side of
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storytelling that's really
useful for business analysts,
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and that's getting other people
to talk. And sometimes they you
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know, some people are a little
bit nervous talking to you, they
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don't really know why as
business analysts, but I've
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walked into situations which are
operational call handlers. And
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I'll say something like, tell me
about the worst situation you
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had, or tell me about the best
the most enjoyable part of your
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work. And that gets them
talking, gets them to engage
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that more, but there are also,
so for me, there are techniques
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that dado day in the life of
that's about storytelling. Tell
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me about that your life and how
your typical workday for you.
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What do you do? Do you know how
does this process work? You tell
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me about what you do. So it's
about engaging getting them to
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talk and figure out a way of you
getting that information that
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you need, away from them by
asking open questions.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, and
another often use technique is
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user stories. They're called
stories for a reason. I read a
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lot of user stories, but I often
miss the story behind it. And if
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I don't know the story behind
it, if I don't understand where
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it comes from, if I can't
empathize with the stakeholders
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that will benefit from the user
story, then it's going to be
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much more difficult to implement
it well. It's going to be it's
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not going to be easy for me to
really stand in the shoes of the
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other person and make us create
a solution that is suited for
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for their problem of challenge.
So maybe we need to create more
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stories when we create user
stories. And it can be very
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small stories. I think the small
ones are very powerful. But
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there's always a story behind
it. And if you can grasp that
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story, then I think you will be
able to create better solutions.
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Paula Bell: I think you can feel
like this.
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Ian Richards: So with personas
as well, you've got a backstory,
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how many when you create the
personas, you create a backstory
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for them so that you can
understand and empathize with
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them. I mean, then you can do a
customer journey map. Do you
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know it's the same? It's the
story. So it's again, getting
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the experience? Sorry, Paula?
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Paula Bell: Oh, no, no, that was
great. Because you were saying
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personas, I was about to say the
same goes with business process.
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I think as you do processes and
you try to understand how
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processes work, there's a story
behind that process. There's a
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story behind that pain. So as we
can see here, there's a lot of
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different touch points in the
tools and techniques that we use
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that can leverage stories or
understanding the story behind
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it can make us more efficient.
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Ian Richards: I've got a story
about a time where I was in the
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Old Bailey which is really old.
A courtroom is the old the
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biggest courtroom in London. And
I work in the custodian areas
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and the escorts the prisoner
escorts wouldn't talk to me.
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They said, we've seen people,
transformational stuff like you
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come and go, you know, and
nothing happens. There's no
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change, we don't benefit. And I
had to empathize with them and
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said, Yep, probably, but I'm
here to stay. You know, tell me
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about what's the biggest pain.
And what I did was a day in the
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life of, and they would say,
Well, the problem is, you know,
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this, this happens. And
sometimes this happened. And
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before long, they were telling
me stories, because they started
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to open up to me, because I put
something visual on the board.
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And I said, help me fill this
out. So it's getting them to
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talk, as well.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. I think
there's a couple of sides to
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this, right. I'm hearing you
about personas, customer journey
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maps, business processes, right,
their ways of telling stories,
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from one perspective, or a
different perspective, getting
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people to tell you like, Tell me
about a time that went really
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badly or tell me about a time
that went really well, because
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you start to get more detail
then. So it's a great way for
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getting a lot more tacit
information as well, isn't it
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sort of encouraging people
because they're relaxed. So I
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think that's really great. So
I'm hearing from an
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investigation perspective,
stories working for me to be
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able to, like investigate be
able to elicit, I feel like
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there's another side to this as
well, but that perhaps just need
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to telling. So as much as
listening to stories and
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encouraging people to tell us
stories, we perhaps need to tell
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stories, to to to executives, to
management and to people we need
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to sell, I guess is the word
that we need to lead to? How can
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we sell using stories if you've
got any, perhaps tips for us
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that
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Filip Hendrickx: I think this
may be an example where you do
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start with the end in mind.
Because executives typically
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don't have that much time.
They're busy people. I mean,
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we're all busy people. But if
you can grab them for a few
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minutes, start with what you
need from them with how they can
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help you or how you can help
them and dive into the details
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of the story, as they asked you
for more information. So I guess
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you have to flip it on its head
a little bit here
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Ian Richards: in the picture and
say what a wonderful world it
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would be. If you had this and
you have that ticket journey to
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get there. And you'll have to
help me out. Help me get there.
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But selling, selling the dream
selling the assessment of Target
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Operating Model, isn't it,
selling the dream? And then you
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have a roadmap of how you're
going to get the
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Joe Newbert: pictures and words
write pictures and words coming
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back? Just because you dropped
in the word information there,
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fill it. data, how what other
techniques, can we blend with
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storytelling because I feel like
the best technique is always a
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combination of techniques or
blend of them. And I feel like
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data could probably play quite a
big role in a story.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yes, when you
say data, I think of two things.
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The first is information, we
often get lost in the data. But
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what is the information? If you
take a step back? What are the
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key concepts in our organization
that are relevant? Can we
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identify them? And can we have a
shared definition of them, ask
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around your organization, five
people to define customer you
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will get five different answers.
But also, we have so much data
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and so much statistics,
visualizing them, so that it's
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understandable so that the data
tells you a story. I think
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that's also a key elements. That
doesn't get always the attention
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it needs. We see a lot of boring
graphics that don't really say
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much what the data means. So I
think they're definitely the
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combination of story and
visualization is key.
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Ian Richards: So there's I'm not
sure whether you get Mars in
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South Africa, you will remember
Mars Bars No joke, I'm
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Joe Newbert: sure you will. So
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Ian Richards: um, they had data
information that showed them
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that their their sales were
going down in Summit. So they
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change and this is in store I
think changed one of the things
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in that bar. And that was a
screen that put ice cream in
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instead of the new car and sales
went up in the summer. So that
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kind of that data showed that
that story and they took action
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because of it.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, that's really
nice. I love maths bar ice
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creams. I haven't had those in
years in fact, okay.
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Paula Bell: Very, very nice. So
I'm assuming Joe, you didn't
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have any other follow up items
on that. On that piece. As you
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talked about information and
data, I don't want to jump in if
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you've had some, I know
sometimes you'll be percolating
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inside. Just want to make sure.
Make sure
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Joe Newbert: the floor is all
yours. Please take.
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Paula Bell: Okay, so what I
would like to talk about a
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little bit is can you give some
basic principles that our
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audience can go away with, when
they listen to this pod? And
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practice actually apply things?
Maybe some best practices,
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things that have worked really
well? As far as how do you tell
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a story? How do you receive a
story in pretty much bring us
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home with some best practices.
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Ian Richards: So I think that a
really good technique when using
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storytelling is to back it up
visually. I always tell all the
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other business owners that will
listen to me to work visually,
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especially when they go into a
new, I guess, a new project or a
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new workplace, when they don't
know the domain knowledge that
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much to create a rich picture
and to communicate through that.
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And to build it up. It's never,
it's never finished as a rich
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picture. It's always a work in
progress, and to build it up
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with stories that people tell
you. But the stories and just
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talking need to be recorded,
because they're in the brain is
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how we record that down and I
oversee work visually.
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, I would
add to that, co create a story.
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Because if the story is CO
created by a group of people,
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there will be much more
engagement and involvement and
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enthusiasm to actually make it
happen at the vision that you
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have created to make it happen.
So it's maybe not a technique on
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how to do storytelling. But if
you work together, you will get
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better stories, and you will get
everyone on boards, which I
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think is a key element of the
communicative and collaborative
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part of stories.
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Ian Richards: And that's part of
sales, isn't it? If you can make
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it their idea, or your idea can
be the clients idea, then it's
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much, much more better chance of
success.
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Paula Bell: Do you have any
advice on individuals who might
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be introverted, who are very
uncomfortable with either
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telling stories or pulling out
stories or those individuals who
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don't like to speak up? Who
you've got to really work hard
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to get them to tell the story?
Do you have any best practices
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for individuals who might
encounter these things?
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Filip Hendrickx: So I was just
going to say, a key element of
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CO creating a story is
listening. And typically,
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introverts are very good at
listening and understanding what
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people are about and what's
behind. What's the background of
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people. There is a takeaway
summary in the book that says
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everyone has a history, and the
HPI is in in brackets. So it's
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the history of people, it's a
story they have to tell. It's
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about listening, and then
reflecting back what you have
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heard. Did I understand I
understood this? Is that
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correct? Is that what you're
trying to say? And the story
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will will come out of it. I
think
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Ian Richards: I would add to
that. And if you're an
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introvert, I would probably talk
about what you know, first
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football team, or what whatever
interests you have and build up
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rapport that way find out what
the you know what they like, and
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then you can branch out into
that once you've got a little
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bit more confidence that, that
you've got something in common
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with that person, or you've
spent that time building that
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rapport.
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Joe Newbert: So that's, that's a
nice tips there. I feel like
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you've dropped a few breadcrumbs
for me. So maybe it's time that
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I held up the book, right? CO
created by you to a story about
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business analysis, right? You
mentioned small powerful stories
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earlier this this, you could
almost read each little Chapter,
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Chapter almost seems sometimes
too big, too big a block,
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perhaps to call it but you could
read each little component in
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there. individually. It's a
wonderful set of a story. Tell
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us a little bit about about the
book, the idea behind the book,
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maybe how you two got together
to write the book.
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Ian Richards: Okay, so I've
always wanted to write a book.
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Personally. I've always found it
easy to write. But I knew I
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wouldn't create some
masterpiece, you know, so I
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wanted to write Blimey, I wanted
to write about what I know about
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so it was business analysis, but
I didn't want to write it on my
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own. And it spoke to Philip and
we'd share some ideas and hold
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him in high regard as a business
architect, so couldn't come In
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00:20:00,089 --> 00:20:03,599
fact, I said fancy writing the
book. And he said, Yeah, okay,
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great. So we got together in
London in an Airbnb for us five
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nights. And we had a big
whiteboard with lots of lots of
318
00:20:13,289 --> 00:20:18,539
post it notes, we scoped it out.
And the next three years was
319
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:22,469
writing that book. ripstop
start, but we were both busy
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people. So it looked probably if
we look at word count, I
321
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:31,589
probably wrote about 80% of it,
because I guess I'm, it's my
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first language when it's not
Phillips, but we're feeling came
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in was the 25 techniques that we
have. He did her work in that
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00:20:41,129 --> 00:20:44,699
and the fresh trucks those two
anything, Dr. Philip?
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, that's
right, you forgot an important
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part, which is beer. Beer in the
pub in London. I leave it to the
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00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,820
potential reader to discover
what that key element is. But
328
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yeah, so after the week in
London, we had like, an overview
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of a little over 20 chapters,
knowing what is each chapter
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00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:14,760
about what is the main character
of this chapter? What are they
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going to do? And then the
challenging part was creating
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that storyline, weaving in the
techniques in a way that makes
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00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:30,570
it that keeps the reading easy,
because it's if you explain what
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a certain process model looks
like, and how how you created,
335
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it's tends to get boring
quickly, we did not want to
336
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create yet another textbook,
have plenty of decent textbooks
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00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:42,960
out there. So we want to create
something different. So that was
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really challenging. How do we
get to be a content into the
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story? How do we get the
visuals, the models in such a
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shape that they're
understandable by themselves
341
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without needing a lot of
explanation, and still
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insightful enough as an example,
for readers to apply themselves?
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So that took quite a bit of time
and a bit of sandboarding?
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Between us? And maybe
interestingly, obviously, we had
345
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some important discussion
points, like the business case,
346
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how big should a business case
be? We have different viewpoints
347
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on that. And then we realize
that this is actually a
348
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conversation that is happening
inside organizations every day.
349
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So we decided not to choose the
right kind of business case, but
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introduce the conversation as
part of the story in the book,
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because that's the conversation
RBAs will be having as well. So
352
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they can see both viewpoints and
try to find what is the best
353
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approach in their specific
situation.
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Joe Newbert: That's, it's really
nice how you've done that
355
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you've, you've taken people's
thoughts out of their own head
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and put them down on paper. And
through that they of course, now
357
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feel very normal in the kinds of
questions that they they have
358
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bouncing around. So I think it's
a great a great help for the
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community.
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Ian Richards: We wanted to make
it as well, soldier, we wanted
361
00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:07,830
to make it fun and different. So
we had avatars like we did when
362
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we read in boxes, children.
We've got humor in there, we've
363
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got even got romance in there.
So if anybody likes a good
364
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story, but once you learn
something, then it may be the
365
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book for them.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. So how much
of these stories are based on
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real life experience that are in
there?
368
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Ian Richards: There's quite a
few. There's, I've done some
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great projects. And from my
perspective, I've created we've
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created a character called
David, which is he's a bit
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boring, but he's the most like
me, unfortunately, in terms of
372
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characters, and there's a lot of
me and David and he's worked in
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that courtroom and independence
part of the court. He brings a
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lot of that learning Abby is x
forces and I'm in the British
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Army Reserve so there's a plenty
of me in there. There's plenty
376
00:24:01,439 --> 00:24:05,729
of Philip you can say your
techniques that you've used.
377
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Filip Hendrickx: Yeah, the
techniques are inspired by real
378
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life cases obviously. Some of
the people as well in the book
379
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are based on people within my
family which is fun and which
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00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,270
makes it easier to write as
well. Because you relate to
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those people
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Joe Newbert: I feel like well
what's that those little words
383
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you get at the end of the movie
where it says you know nobody in
384
00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:37,679
this book is based on any like
real life events
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Ian Richards: we know the boring
establish that. Are you the
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person
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Joe Newbert: you did hit a
buzzer? Yeah. Very tuned in
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ears. Which brings us to a
close. The buzzer always does
389
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cut us off but I want us I want
to say thank you for joining us
390
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it is, it's been nice to talk
about the stories really, you
391
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know, it's gonna get me thinking
about because I think stories
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need to weave in and out of
things, don't they? And they
393
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take a bit of skill to do. So I
will, I will slowly build up my
394
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confidence much like Ian
suggested and try and do more of
395
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this. Paula, what did you What
did you get out of this?
396
00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:28,409
Paula Bell: Well, I got a few
things, right? I liked how the
397
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story, the construct of the
story, you don't have to have
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everything known. You don't have
to have all the details. You
399
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:39,689
just go with what you know. And
you build as you go, which I
400
00:25:39,689 --> 00:25:44,009
think was a great alignment to
what we do as business analysts.
401
00:25:44,219 --> 00:25:46,919
It's not just about you talking,
but it's also about getting
402
00:25:46,919 --> 00:25:51,449
other people to talk. So you
have to listen. And through that
403
00:25:51,449 --> 00:25:55,829
listening, you'll you'll gain
some some, hopefully some great
404
00:25:55,829 --> 00:26:00,209
seats. And then it's about not
only investigation, but showing
405
00:26:00,209 --> 00:26:03,149
information and doing it
visually. So I think there were
406
00:26:03,149 --> 00:26:07,469
a lot of great touch points that
I got from from the from the
407
00:26:07,469 --> 00:26:11,009
conversation today, that I'll
keep in mind as I do things too.
408
00:26:11,159 --> 00:26:14,639
And know your audience. Know who
your audiences that you're
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working on the stories with.
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00:26:17,069 --> 00:26:20,939
Joe Newbert: Yeah, Nicely put.
Thank you, Paula. Right. I'm
411
00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:25,289
going to hand it over to you,
Philip, you can close us out.
412
00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:29,189
Tell us about you and Ian, where
we can get a hold of you where
413
00:26:29,189 --> 00:26:31,529
we can get a hold of the book as
well, please.
414
00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:36,659
Filip Hendrickx: Yes, so thanks
for the opportunity. The links
415
00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,559
are here. So Ian and myself,
we're both on LinkedIn. And we
416
00:26:40,559 --> 00:26:45,539
are more than happy to share our
experience or thoughts or give
417
00:26:45,539 --> 00:26:48,629
feedback, whether it's on
business analysis, or a few
418
00:26:48,629 --> 00:26:52,259
maybe think about writing your
own book. And you want to hear
419
00:26:53,189 --> 00:26:56,459
how easy or difficult it is and
how to go about it. Feel free to
420
00:26:56,459 --> 00:27:00,689
get in touch with us on LinkedIn
or by email. And if you're
421
00:27:00,779 --> 00:27:03,659
interested in the book, you can
check it out at our website,
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00:27:03,659 --> 00:27:09,089
brainy glue.com. There is a link
to purchase a PDF copy which is
423
00:27:09,089 --> 00:27:14,309
basically emailed to me a couple
of links to Amazon where you can
424
00:27:14,309 --> 00:27:18,989
get the Kindle version and the
paperback version. And there is
425
00:27:18,989 --> 00:27:22,559
also a 16 Chapter sample which
you can freely download the
426
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,609
check it out before you actually
buy the book and see if you like
427
00:27:26,609 --> 00:27:29,609
it. So those other places you
can go to.
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Joe Newbert: Lastly, thank you
very much, Philip. Definitely a
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00:27:37,109 --> 00:27:40,649
book worth checking out. But
Thanks Ian and Philip for
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00:27:40,649 --> 00:27:44,309
joining us. And thank you for
tuning in. We appreciate your
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00:27:44,309 --> 00:27:48,089
support. You can subscribe to
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