FBA 013 Adrian Reed: Demonstrating the Value of Business Analysis

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Joe Newbert: Hey everyone is
Joe. Welcome to another episode
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of the future business analyst
podcast. My guest today is the
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mighty Adrian Reed, Principal
Consultant of black metric
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editor in chief at ba digest.
And as we all know, Adrian likes
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a good side project. He is also
co founder of BA school day
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along with Tina Lovelock,
author, speaker, but mainly a
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BA, and co workers would
describe him as an unapologetic
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diva he, Joe, but only slightly,
only slightly at least, you
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didn't insist on a bowl of blue
m&ms for coming on this show. So
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I appreciate that.
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Adrian Reed: It would be brown
m&ms. Joe, you should know.
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Joe Newbert: Anyway, welcome to
the show. And Adrian, thanks for
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joining me today.
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Adrian Reed: No, thank you. My
pleasure to be here.
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Joe Newbert: We always start at
the beginning. When you tell us
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how you found this profession,
or perhaps how it found you?
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Adrian Reed: Yeah, that's a
really interesting question. I'm
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one of those bas Joe. And this
may resonate with you where I
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think business analysis found
me. And I was actually working
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in an insurance company. And I
was pretty much on an
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underwriting career path. But I
was always the sort of person
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that looked to try and improve
processes, I was very junior in
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my career, and I sort of got
into what was then called E
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commerce, not the kind of E
commerce we would consider to be
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E commerce now, but it was, you
know, brokers, insurance agents,
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sending electronic messages over
with these horrendous data
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standards that were used at the
time. And, and so I sort of got
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into projects on that and got
into what we would probably now
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call IT systems analysis. And
then as I started to get
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involved in change to IT
systems, I started to understand
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the importance of the business
and the process element of the
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change. And then the
organization had a restructure.
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And suddenly, there was this
roll call, business analyst and
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I, the more I found out about
it, the more I was like, Okay,
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well hang on a minute, this is
what I've been doing. And this
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is what I enjoy doing. And this
is what I want to do. And then
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once I knew that it was like a
light bulb came on for me. And I
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then subsequently, you know, did
some actual training in business
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analysis, because I knew it was
an actual role, and then moved
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on, you know, to a different
company to become lead business
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analyst, and, you know, and so
on and so forth. So, went
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through various domains. So
yeah, so it found me, I think,
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Joe Newbert: yeah, as you say,
it's a story that resonates, I
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think it does find many of us
where we start, you know, if we
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got a mind for that improvement,
we start seeing things that we
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can change, and then suddenly
there's a role for us, right.
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Yours emerging sort of quite
early on, I guess, in in the
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maturity of the profession. How
have you seen things change over
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the years from when you first
started to now?
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Adrian Reed: So I think, well,
so I'll start by answering that
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question in a really odd way.
What one thing that hasn't
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changed, is, I think there's a
sense that business analysis
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isn't as recognized as it should
or could be. And when I was
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first involved in this there was
like, we were always fighting up
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against the OAU. But you're part
of it. Right? Like and
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organizationally in that
organization, we were part of
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it. And we were really
struggling to say, actually,
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look, but that doesn't mean that
you don't need to make all of
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your decisions about solutions.
And only involve us when you
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think there's it involved,
because actually, we provide
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bigger services there. And that
was a battle we were fighting at
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the time. And, but I think
there's that that
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misunderstanding in some
organizations, still, there
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isn't in others. But I think
there is still a feeling amongst
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many practitioners that Pete
like, almost like people don't
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get us. And, and I think there's
work for all of us in the
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community to do to, you know, to
sort of collectively get over
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that, which perhaps we'll come
on to as a separate topic. But
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in terms of what's changed, I
think, you know, in terms of the
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fundamentals, fundamental
skills, beneath it all is still
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really sound because you need to
be able to problem solve, you
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need to be able understand
processes, you need to
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understand data, things like
this and, but of course, the
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actual mechanisms, the
deliverables, the artifacts, the
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way they look, have definitely
changed. You know, I'm far more
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likely, if I think about the
projects I've, you know, I've
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worked on in recent years, it's
far more likely to be buy rather
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than build, that might that
might just be because of the
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types of clients I tend to work
with. Whereas, you know, in my,
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like, my, the first part of my
career was on, you know, making
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changes to an existing what we
would now call legacy mainframe,
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I mean, it was probably legacy
at the time, to be honest, but
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it was homegrown, whereas this
sort of less than that. But then
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there's the recognition that,
you know, organizations have got
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have normally got a bit of a
hotchpotch of technical
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architecture and process
architecture and organizational
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architecture. So you find
yourself having to understand
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all of that. So I think I think,
you know, obviously, there's,
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there's more agile practices. To
a greater or lesser extent, I
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see a lot of agile in name only,
which, again, is a whole
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separate topic. But there's,
there's, I think, what underpins
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all of this is an expectation
that the pace of change has to
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be quicker. Yeah. And often
people say, or I find people
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say, Oh, well, we want to be
agile. What they actually mean
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is, we need the ability to
realize benefits quicker and get
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stuff out the door quicker of
which some agile methods may
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help us achieve that they may
help us achieve a part of that.
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So I think that's an element to
it. And you know, and I think,
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but but a real biggest two, two
related things have changed. The
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cadence, speed, velocity and
ferocity of communication is
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just so much like like when I
and this is where I'm going to
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sound like I used to live in a
windmill. So it's that kind of
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crazy. Sort of, but like, like,
when I first started my career,
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I was in an insurance broker.
And our main communication with
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the insurance companies we dealt
with were by phone or by memo,
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right, yeah, printed memo, which
if it was urgent, would get
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faxed, right. And, and so things
happened in quite a Batchi way,
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because you had an end of day
batch that got physically
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mailed. That kind of cadence
just doesn't cut it today. But
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the flip side of that is, I
think we work in a permanently
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distracted world, where
everyone's at meetings, and
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everyone's at meetings, replying
to teams, teams, you know,
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teams, messages, and WhatsApp.
And so if I was reading, in
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fact, it's just happens to be
here, because I was I was making
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some notes with an excellent
book by Petra Belzer bore begin
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with you, which is actually
about mental health and cultures
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in organizations. But I haven't
got the exact quote, I won't get
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to find it. But she basically
says that, you know, focus is
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the new, competitive commodity,
right? Like, nobody has focus.
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And I was reading thinking,
Yeah, I work. I work in a
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distracted way, and actually
just carving out time to think.
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So I've gone on a really
rambling stream of consciousness
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there, Joe, so picks pick the
bones out of that.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, well, I
guess. So that's my part of this
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conversation to try and do that.
And you did drop lots in there.
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But it is, it is really
interesting how things have
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changed. And there's no one
simple answer is there. It's the
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many sorts of different
complexities that that you
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brought in. I mean, let's maybe
focus on that word, focus,
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because I do think it's very
important. You talk about these
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times when it was when
communication was much slower. I
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was remembering back to when
there was a mailroom guy, you
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know, he had a trolley and you
put your memos on their trolley.
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And you might be lucky if it
reached the floor above or below
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by the next morning, right? It
was a completely different pace.
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And now as you identify just the
pace of change the pace of
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expectations, the pace of
meeting needs, is what was the
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word you I think used to work
ferocious, didn't you because it
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is ferocious. And that ferocity
is probably only going to
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increase as we get into the next
few years. How do you think as
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well, I don't even want to say
as bas I think, just as general
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professionals, just as, as
people, what sort of tactics are
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you starting to put in place to
be able to cope with that?
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Adrian Reed: So I think there's
two elements to that those the,
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those the, almost like the,
it's, it's cutting out the sick,
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this is a sort of probably a
physicists view. Not that I'm a
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particularly good physicist, but
it's cutting out the signal from
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the noise for me personally. And
I think that applies at
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different levels. It sits at the
organizational level, the team
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level and an individual level.
So like, I mean, you know, you
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and I have never like directly
worked together, but we've
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collaborated on stuff together.
And you know me well enough to
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know, if you send me a WhatsApp
message, I will reply to it, but
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probably not straightaway, and
there's nothing and that's just
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that's, you know, unless it's
urgent, that's, that's kind of
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fine. So I think there's an
element of understanding the
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signals that need an urgent
action need an urgent response,
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and understand the signals that
might be somebody else's crisis.
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But making a decision over
whether to make it your crisis
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or not, as well. And that's
gonna sound really harsh, but
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like, you can end up you know,
if you're working on a business
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critical product, or business
critical, you know, if this
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thing doesn't launch, when we're
not going to be compliant at the
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end of the month, or whatever,
and someone draws you out to
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work on something that is far
less important than you've
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potentially yet. You've helped
them with their crisis and
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created a crisis of your own
sort of thing. It's really easy
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to do. And, but I think more
broadly than that, and I'm going
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to bring it back to ba
techniques, because I can't help
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myself. But if you think about a
context diagram, and I know,
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that's one of those things, you
say, context diagrams, there are
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so many different flavors, but
just imagine a circle with some
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boxes around and some arrows
coming in those arrows
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representing data flows. You
know, you could almost imagine,
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imagine them like message flows,
or business events happened in
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some adjacent system, or
adjacent actor is telling you
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something, and your bit in the
middle has to decide whether or
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how to respond. And that kind of
thinking can apply at an
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individual level, right? Okay,
someone sent me an email saying,
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you know, they want me to review
the eBay purchase that I've
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made, I may or may not actually
want to do that, right? Just
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because it's come in doesn't
mean it's that I'm going to do
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it, or I'm going to do it now.
Organizations need to do that as
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well, you know, someone sent in
a suggestion, they think you
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should do something completely
differently. Of course, listen
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to it, but triage it. And if
it's not in line with your
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strategy, probably just write
back and say, Thank you very
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much for the feedback. But, you
know, we're a discount airline,
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no, we're not going to offer
free food to all of our
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passengers or whatever. I mean,
that's crazy example. So yeah, I
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think it's about triaging
understanding that there's going
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to be noise prioritizing, and,
and setting those boundaries
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and, and unfortunately, and even
on a personal level, saying no
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to stuff, right, because there's
so much stuff, there's so much
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stuff we all could do. And our
word I got stuck in an Instagram
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hole yesterday, I was scrolling
scrolling was to give up just,
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you know, caught in a scroll
hole. I mean, it's easy to do.
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Joe Newbert: No, it's easy to be
distracted. I like what you say
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about signals and reading
signals. And I think it's
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aligning signals with other
people. And I feel like you said
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this, but I'm reminded of a sign
that somebody had on their desk
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once they were an analyst,
programmer. Place I work to 15
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years ago, that sign on the desk
said bad planning on your part
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does not constitute an emergency
on mine. And I feel like that's
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the crux of what you're saying
here in a way.
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Adrian Reed: It is. And I think,
I think I see I've heard that,
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and I like it. And I think
that's that's the essence of it,
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but with with empathy, because
that's, and I'm not saying that,
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that that statement doesn't have
empathy. But there may well be
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people that we can help, we just
can't help them immediately. Or
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it's a case of, well, actually,
you know, what, I just can't
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because I'm working on this, but
you know, what, actually,
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there's a junior bi, who's
really trying to get experience
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in this. And, you know, they
can't do exactly what you need,
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but you know, what, if you to
work together, they've got some
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capacity. So, you know, hooking
people up in that way. So I
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think, you know, it is, you
know, sometimes a yes, and can a
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good response to those sorts of
things.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, it's maybe
saying not saying no, as you
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said, but saying, No, I can't,
but I can help you in another
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way. And making that connection
for somebody. And of course,
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those signals as much as it
might be bad planning on that
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other person's part doesn't mean
that it's not important. And it
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actually doesn't need your
response. And that's just the
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way it has to be at that time.
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Adrian Reed: And the thing is,
we never really know what
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pressure that person was put
under when they when they were
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planning and what politics was
going on, and we don't know what
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position they're inside. So I
think the essence of that
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statement, I think it's, it's
spot on, but I think if we wrap
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it in a, an empathetic wrapper,
okay.
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Joe Newbert: Maybe let's go with
the flow of this empathy because
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I think empathy is going to be
hugely important, isn't it as we
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go forward, because, as you say,
with the pace with the Varosha
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SNESs of it all, we can find
ourselves in that situation more
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and more. So empathy is going to
be a big tool to help other
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people. Well,
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Adrian Reed: and this is where,
oh, I'm going to I'm going to
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probably I, I try not to be
controversial, Joe, I really do.
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But so Lean Six Sigma are
excellent process improvement
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methods and methodology. So
nothing I'm about to say, is
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intended as a dig at any, in any
methodology, I think they're
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both fantastic and have their
uses. It is easy when some
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process methodologies are mis
applied, in my view, to end up
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cutting out all of the slack,
creating so much
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standardization, that when
someone who has a need that
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doesn't fit the script, they're
an edge case. And they're
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excluded. Right? And it reminds
me of I remember when I was a
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kid, having a, I don't know, how
you describe it, but like a
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bucket. And the bucket had like
a lid with different shapes on
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right. So you and you have these
little blocks, you'd have a star
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block that fit through the star
hole, and, you know, you know,
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the kind of thing I'm tossing
around? And you know, and then
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and then you could jam them in
like I would do, because I'm
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awkward like that. But anyway,
more sensible children would
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have done it the right way, I'm
sure. But the point is that I
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think a lot of when there's no
slack, what you're what the
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interface that we present to our
customers, whether that's over
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the phone, whether it's an
online to faces, right, okay. Is
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your query a square, a star or a
circle? And you go no, well, it
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has to be. So you know, and so
I've had this experience that,
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you know, I have a elderly
relative who very sadly, lost
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mental capacity through
dementia, absolutely traumatic,
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anyone going through that, you
know, it's a horrible journey
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for everyone around them. And in
the UK, the way that that
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happens is the person in advance
makes a what's known as a
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lasting power of attorney, which
means that someone else can take
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on their affairs when they can
no longer do so. And there are
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hundreds of 1000s of power of
attorneys probably more, but
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every company you deal with,
it's like, oh, God, we've never
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seen one of these before. Oh, we
don't know. Right? Well, and you
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ended up having to, like, for
too Well, for one government,
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one government department. I had
to go to the Director General to
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get stuff sorted. I kid you not.
And for one telecommunications
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company, I had to basically take
them to the regulator, because
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they were refusing to deal under
power of attorney and you kind
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of go, I get why this is
happening, though. It's because
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the people on the front line are
saying, well, no, we only deal
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with the person. If you're not
them. Then sorry, we can't help
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you. It's like, Well, okay, you
know, and you get and then you
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get the really an empathetic
response is what can't you just
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remember, can't just ask him to
remember his password and give
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it to you? Well, no, because
actually, he can't remember who
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anyone is. And he can't speak.
Yeah. And like, so that's where
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you kind of lose the, the
empathy, because the empathy is
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squashed out through too much.
On unthinking automation, and
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automation isn't bad, but I'm
thinking automation is an
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unthinking systemization. Like
scripting, right? I don't
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necessarily mean it system, but
giving someone a script and
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saying, Don't deviate from it.
So yeah, hunterson, ethics,
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ethics and empathy. So
important.
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Joe Newbert: Ethics? Yeah, it
is. And I'm going to circle back
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to your comment on the edges.
And I'm thinking about, I'm also
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doing the thing where I revert
to business analysis, but I'm
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thinking of a process diagram,
and we've got an exception, and
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maybe the exception doesn't have
a flow apart from to say, give
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to it as department that can
deal with the unusual and be.
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Adrian Reed: Exactly. And that's
it, right? Because, and this is
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it because sometimes when I talk
about things like this, people
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say, Oh, but you can't ever
define processes for all the
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exceptions. And I say, Yes, I
agree. I agree. You can't, you
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know, or you could, but it will
take you so much time. And you
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know, and you know, on an exam,
a crazy example I always use is
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which, you know, what? If the
head of state rang, and, you
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know, you said they want
something, you might cut them
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some slack given their head of
state, right, you know, like the
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President or king or queen or
whatever, and you're in your
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jersey, you're probably gonna
have a different process for
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them. But like, don't define
that, unless, you know, they're,
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you know, listen, you know,
they're a customer, right? So, I
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mean, there's ethical question
about whether the process should
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or shouldn't be different, but
you might need extra security
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because, you know, you've got
the king or president or
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whatever visiting so, you know,
but yeah, I agree. That's,
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that's, you know, for uncommon
exception All you need is
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someone, you need people to have
the ability to see. Oh, my word,
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something else is different
here. It isn't right for us to
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exclude that personal for them
off, lets someone who's got some
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autonomy to make the decision.
Let's pass it on to them.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. And to come
here to set to come back sort of
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the circle round. I mean, you
mentioned agile and agility at
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the beginning. Now you've now
mentioned, I guess, following
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processes to choke particular
situations. Agile is a means to
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agility, right? But it's not the
end result. Is it? It's just a
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path to get there? Well, or one
yes to get there. It's part
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Adrian Reed: in my view, agile
product, or software delivery
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methods are a part of a whole
series of things that needs to
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happen in an organization to
create agility. Right. So let
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again this is a ridiculous
example, but only because I was
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as I was mentioning, earlier,
before we went live I had my
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opticians appointment today, my
eyes haven't changed, which is
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good. But one of the things I
noticed on my walk to the
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opticians in Portsmouth we have
lots of these electric scooters.
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I don't know do you have them?
Wear? Yeah, yeah. Right. And
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they're in a really weird
legislative situation in the UK,
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because they, it is legal to
make them it is legal to sell
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them. But it is not legal to use
them on any public piece of
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land, right or highway. Because
they, from what I gather, they
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fall into this weird
classification of vehicle that
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you can use legally, as long as
you get vehicle excise license,
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vehicle excise duty or road tax
as it's sometimes known. And
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insurance, the issue being that
you can't actually get either of
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those things. And there are
other reasons that doesn't fit
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into the Road Traffic Act or
whatever, right. So you've got
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this bizarre situation where
you've got a thing being sold,
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that is definitely being used on
public land. That is not legal.
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And the police probably haven't
got the time or inclination to
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enforce against anyway. And
then. And then there are then
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there are side schemes where you
can legally rent them and stuff.
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And so it's very blurry. But but
the point there is that's an
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example. And it's crazy example,
but technology has moved more
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quickly than the law. The
government cannot legislate and
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there's not enough legislative
time in the UK Parliament, I'm I
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would suggest to legislate as
quickly for the technology
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that's emerging. Okay. Now,
think about legislative agility,
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right writing legislation. So it
can actually be, you know,
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quickly adapted for emerging
technology. That's something I'm
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sure the senior civil servants
in governments would will be
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thinking about that's necessary
for agility in those
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organizations, but has nothing
to do with agile, right. But
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there's exactly the same thing
in organizations that like
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policy and strategy level,
because, because like going back
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to that, going back to that
crazy bucket analogy, with all
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the different stuff, right?
Imagine those are the shapes,
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like those are the things that
are out there in that buckets
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environment. And if there's a
shape that doesn't fit the
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bucket can't really service its
environment anymore, right? So I
368
00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:38,010
can organization, something
happens, perhaps there's a new
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social trend, right? You know,
and it can't if it doesn't see
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it, it, it can't respond to it.
So it doesn't even know the
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signal, the signal is there
knocking against the thing. And,
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you know, so I think agility,
like Agile is, is a great way of
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delivering, you know, working
software in a really effective
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way when it's done well. But
there's a whole organizational
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thing that needs to change where
the organization needs to be
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looking outwards, needs to
actually be talking to its
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customers. It needs to be, you
know, actually living agility, a
378
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macro perspective, not just
saying, Well, yeah, we want to
379
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deliver stuff quickly. But you
know, what, we also want you to
380
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commit to estimates budgets, and
we've got our here's our 10 year
381
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strategic plan. Can you give us
a five year roadmap, please, you
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know, so there's that there's
that kind of level as well.
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Joe Newbert: It's really
interesting. I mean, he raised
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some great, great points as much
as like one areas being sort of
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encouraged to be more flexible,
more agile, more fluid. There
386
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does reach this point where it
starts to knock against the
387
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bucket and say, well, actually,
we were sort of unable to do
388
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this. I'm joining a few dots
here. I think I want to come
389
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back to what you made a brief
comment about out sort of people
390
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not understanding what the BA
does, you know, and perhaps
391
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being a problem from the outset
set of the role. I'm going to
392
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use one of your phrases here,
just just to lead you into this.
393
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You say you try and avoid to be
controversial. I think some
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controversy might be good.
Adrian bas losing the learned
395
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,860
helplessness a cane. Yeah. And I
just want to tie this into, what
396
00:25:28,860 --> 00:25:35,160
I'm hearing from you is that BAs
can step up and actually play a
397
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,450
much bigger role in questioning
things like ethics, in
398
00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:43,470
questioning things like, you
know, your shape sorter and
399
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:48,480
perhaps just driving change a
little more proactively than
400
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,500
they do right now.
401
00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:56,340
Adrian Reed: I think there is a
huge opportunity for anyone who
402
00:25:56,340 --> 00:26:01,770
has the appetite to do that. And
I think there's actually a risk.
403
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:06,810
So and again, this may be
controversial, but you know,
404
00:26:06,810 --> 00:26:10,980
I've seen situations before
where bas have been brought in
405
00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:16,020
too late. It happens, right?
We've all been there. And almost
406
00:26:16,020 --> 00:26:18,540
like the situation is right? You
know, you're brought in, we're
407
00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:21,990
agile. So the devs haven't
gotten a user stories, like so
408
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:24,960
write user stories, write as
many user stories as you can,
409
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,940
oh, no, don't ask those
questions just right. Like, we
410
00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:30,180
just need user stories like
users to and it's and it becomes
411
00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:34,530
like, a huge a story factory,
where it's like, no, just write
412
00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:37,200
stories, stories, stories,
stories, stories. It's like this
413
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:44,130
this industrial complex of Aza
you know, so that, and but
414
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:48,090
actually, in that situation,
sometimes the most courageous,
415
00:26:48,090 --> 00:26:51,930
difficult but courageous thing
to do say, Okay, let's, okay,
416
00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:54,240
let's put some seed stories in,
but I'm going to start a quite
417
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,580
high level to work out. But
let's actually work out what
418
00:26:56,580 --> 00:27:00,030
we're building here. And whether
it's the right thing, because
419
00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:03,270
otherwise, I can write some
really, really effective stories
420
00:27:03,270 --> 00:27:07,110
that deliver precisely zero
value, because, oh, and by the
421
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:09,210
way, what are we doing about non
functional requirements here?
422
00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:11,790
Has anyone considered those?
Because Are we really going to
423
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do them as stories? Maybe we are
probably not, though probably
424
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going to do them differently?
And how are we just using? So?
425
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,550
So I think there is this quite
often we get into a situation
426
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where others are, and it comes
back to that crisis on other
427
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,880
people's, you know, someone
else's crisis? Well, you know,
428
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,610
the, the outsource dev team are
telling us they can't do
429
00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:31,530
anything, just haven't got
stories, and there's probably a
430
00:27:31,530 --> 00:27:37,560
whole other, you know, so I
think sometimes saying, Yeah, we
431
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,770
can do that. But alongside that,
I'm going to help you understand
432
00:27:40,770 --> 00:27:43,050
the problem statement, I'm going
to do a context diagram or
433
00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:46,140
whatever. And I want to, you
know, and in two weeks, let's
434
00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:49,500
have a checkpoint and just see
where we're at, and see if we're
435
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,230
going along the right way.
Because you know, what? Agile
436
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:56,430
and agility is also about having
the ability to pivot. So, you
437
00:27:56,430 --> 00:28:00,270
know, let's, let's not start
just by asking what everyone
438
00:28:00,270 --> 00:28:03,420
wants and coming up with a
Center's Wish List of, you know,
439
00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:08,190
inconceivable and incoherent
requirements or stories, let's
440
00:28:08,190 --> 00:28:11,880
actually figure out some of the
really big questions as well. So
441
00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:14,820
yeah, but the learner just
started circling back to the
442
00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:18,360
learned helplessness. I mean,
and I really hope this isn't
443
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,650
controversial. But like, if
people don't get the value of
444
00:28:22,650 --> 00:28:28,050
what we do, that's on us. Yeah.
Like, it's a harsh truth. It
445
00:28:28,050 --> 00:28:33,060
took me a lot a long time to
learn, but I felt like I was
446
00:28:33,060 --> 00:28:36,690
being a teenager, like, Oh,
nobody understands me. These
447
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:40,830
people don't nobody gets me, you
know, I mean, I was one step
448
00:28:40,830 --> 00:28:43,140
away from, you know, dressing
like, what's his face from the
449
00:28:43,140 --> 00:28:45,540
cure? And getting, that's a
reference that no one will get
450
00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:49,050
anyway, so he sent me a new job.
I was getting my nail varnish
451
00:28:49,050 --> 00:28:51,420
ready, but no, so you know, so
but like, feeling this
452
00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:57,000
misunderstood. But actually,
like, if we cannot articulate
453
00:28:57,060 --> 00:29:01,800
our value, then we don't deserve
a place at the table. And like,
454
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:05,100
I know, that's a horrible thing
to hear and to say, but like,
455
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:09,930
it's not a new role, if we can't
explain it. And if we can't sell
456
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:13,380
it, then the problem is, at
least partially on us. So I'm
457
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:16,080
gonna I'm going to give that
caveat to anyone who's ill.
458
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:17,730
Right to me with hatred.
459
00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:23,610
Joe Newbert: Now, misunderstood
teenager, I think is the perfect
460
00:29:23,610 --> 00:29:27,180
analogy for it, because it is
sort of this blaming the outside
461
00:29:27,180 --> 00:29:31,260
world for the situation that
we're in when actually we need
462
00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:34,110
to do a better job of
articulating but also
463
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,220
demonstrating, I guess, you
know, not just saying, but
464
00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:42,540
acting and showing that, you
know, there is a valuable place
465
00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:43,440
for this stuff.
466
00:29:44,010 --> 00:29:46,170
Adrian Reed: I mean, a phrase
that I heard from Laura
467
00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:52,500
Brandenburg, probably 15 years
or more ago, was credibility
468
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:56,310
comes through delivery. And it
has stuck with me ever since and
469
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:59,970
I've probably used it myself.
Your credibility comes through
470
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,940
delivery. It might have been
Laura Brandenburg, it might have
471
00:30:02,940 --> 00:30:05,220
been Paul Abell, actually, I
might have heard either of them
472
00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:08,070
or both of them say that at some
point, but very inspirational
473
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:10,560
people, you know, folks
listening, you know, Laura
474
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,050
Brandenburg, Paul Abell, look
them up, connect with them
475
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,010
awesome people. And I think
there's a huge amount to that.
476
00:30:17,550 --> 00:30:21,450
But you know, I think that, I
don't think I think, again, this
477
00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:24,750
is one of those things that is
at a practitioner level, it is
478
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:29,190
also at a team, or department,
or internal community of
479
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:34,890
practice level, but also, you
know, we have a global virtual
480
00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:39,240
community of practice, you and I
have never worked together for
481
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,690
the same organization. But we
know we can pick up the phone to
482
00:30:42,690 --> 00:30:46,530
each other. And if you know, if
I want, if I, like, if I saw,
483
00:30:46,530 --> 00:30:49,050
Oh, Joe, you've worked on such
and such, can you give me some
484
00:30:49,050 --> 00:30:52,680
tips, I know, you take the call
and vice versa, you know, I
485
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,440
would take the call. And that is
that sort of community of
486
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:00,240
practice that spans beyond an
organization. And I think, by
487
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,700
doing the sort of thing that
you're doing here, Joe, with,
488
00:31:02,730 --> 00:31:05,880
with podcasts, and the other
great content you create, this
489
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,820
is about getting the message out
as well to, you know, to each
490
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:12,840
other, but hopefully, then it
filters, you know, proliferates
491
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,410
through beyond this beyond
business analysis, as well. So I
492
00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:19,110
think there's that good, like,
you know, the Community of
493
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:20,550
Practice element to it as well,
494
00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:26,490
Joe Newbert: there is, and I'm
going to come back to that, but
495
00:31:26,490 --> 00:31:31,080
via something else. I was in
training the other day, and
496
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,920
somebody gave me a great analogy
for what they see happening with
497
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,290
business analysis. And some of
the other roles that are
498
00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:40,860
emerging more recently, they
described it as a shiny red
499
00:31:40,860 --> 00:31:44,970
apple. And they said that pas
used to have a shiny red apple,
500
00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:48,300
and then somebody came along and
took a bite out of it right and
501
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:51,210
said, We'll handle that. You
could call them a product
502
00:31:51,210 --> 00:31:54,930
manager or whatever you want to
imagine any role here. But then
503
00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:58,350
somebody else came along and
said, We're going to take a bite
504
00:31:58,350 --> 00:32:02,070
of this apple two, and it was
maybe a user research analyst.
505
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:05,550
And, you know, there's all these
different sort of niche
506
00:32:05,550 --> 00:32:11,700
professions emerging. Do you see
that continuing? Over the next
507
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,040
while becoming even more
defragmented?
508
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,130
Adrian Reed: Yes, but I don't
think it matters. Because like,
509
00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:26,100
so like, and this is another, I
miss. So so so it's really
510
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:29,460
interesting, because the work I
do with the clients I work with,
511
00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:33,270
quite often people say, oh, you
know, what, you're what you do
512
00:32:33,270 --> 00:32:37,680
is this is architecture, isn't
it? And maybe some of it is or
513
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,570
okay, you know, what you what
you do? There is product
514
00:32:39,570 --> 00:32:44,610
management. Okay. Fine, yeah.
But then actually, I think it's,
515
00:32:44,850 --> 00:32:50,970
the opportunity is, or, to
borrow that analogy, is rather
516
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:54,870
than just having having a red
apple, is let's have a whole
517
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,530
cocktail. Let's, you know, let's
actually I'll bring I'll bring
518
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,810
this is offering my apple, you
bring your orange and your pair,
519
00:33:03,810 --> 00:33:07,860
let's put them in in a bowl and,
and have a piece each, and then
520
00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:11,970
we've all got more flavors. And
yeah, I might still be 70%
521
00:33:11,970 --> 00:33:15,180
Apple, and if you've got a
question about apple cider, and
522
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:19,950
you come and speak to me, but,
you know, but actually, I can do
523
00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:24,480
enough orange, and enough pair,
but knowing that the experts in
524
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,120
pairs, and I've got this
analogies, I've stretched it too
525
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,700
far. Joe, I'm flogging it. But
you know, but you get you get
526
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:35,610
the point. It's about, I think,
Nick to voile, who, again,
527
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,460
another hugely inspirational
person, if you're listening
528
00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:43,170
following it to foil, he says
things that I generally only see
529
00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:46,770
the significance of about 10
years later. And this was
530
00:33:47,370 --> 00:33:51,000
probably nearly 15 or 20 years
ago. Now at an iba event. I
531
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,970
remember him saying that, you
know, sometimes people say,
532
00:33:54,090 --> 00:33:57,810
Well, you can't be a BA and dou
x as well. And my response is,
533
00:33:57,810 --> 00:34:00,420
why not? You know, the
boundaries are only there
534
00:34:00,420 --> 00:34:04,890
because we made them. Yeah, I'm
gonna say that, again. The
535
00:34:04,890 --> 00:34:09,090
boundaries are only there.
Because we believe in and
536
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:12,210
because sometimes because it's
organizationally convenient for
537
00:34:12,210 --> 00:34:15,540
the boundaries to be there.
Yeah. And yes, there's there's
538
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:18,870
got to be clarity around roles
and races and these sorts of
539
00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:24,450
things, but they don't have to
be as they don't have to be
540
00:34:24,450 --> 00:34:28,260
concrete. They can be, you know,
knowledge cannon in my view
541
00:34:28,260 --> 00:34:32,910
should. It's really exciting. I
find it when knowledge comes
542
00:34:32,910 --> 00:34:35,970
from from adjacent roles, you
know, when I work with UX
543
00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:39,630
professionals, either loads,
because there's similarities in
544
00:34:39,630 --> 00:34:42,090
what we do. And I'm, I'd like to
think they learned something,
545
00:34:42,090 --> 00:34:44,910
maybe something as well, when
I've worked with, you know,
546
00:34:44,910 --> 00:34:48,510
other, you know, other
disciplines I've learned loads
547
00:34:48,510 --> 00:34:51,480
so I think it's more about
saying, Yeah, you know, what,
548
00:34:51,630 --> 00:34:55,650
people might have a bite out of
our our fruit but you know, but
549
00:34:55,650 --> 00:34:59,160
actually, it's two way and why
not take the opportunity to take
550
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,400
a bite out of them. Hold on to
it collaboratively and make it
551
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,600
non nonzero sum. It would be
would be my view on it.
552
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:11,520
Joe Newbert: Yeah, nothing is a
great view. Yeah, the fruit
553
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,090
cocktail, one of the important
things for me in there was
554
00:35:15,090 --> 00:35:17,880
actually saying, you know, I can
do a bit of pear, but I'm not a
555
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,570
pear. And exactly, and that
that's the point where, you
556
00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:25,050
know, you know, I can help you.
But if you want more help, then
557
00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:28,230
we might need to take you to see
a specialist, you know, who
558
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:29,610
really gets into it?
559
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:34,920
Adrian Reed: And that's it like,
so for example, I know that I, I
560
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,070
know, there is so much I don't
know about quality assurance and
561
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:40,530
testing, like, you know, QA and
testing, and there are people
562
00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:43,380
who specialize in that. So
whenever anyone asks me about
563
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:46,770
that, I'll say, look, I can give
you a very, very brief and
564
00:35:46,770 --> 00:35:50,760
probably an accurate overview of
some stuff. You need a QA and
565
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,960
testing professional here. It's
not, it's not. So one, it's not
566
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,900
something I know about. And it's
not something that excites me.
567
00:35:58,050 --> 00:36:01,140
But luckily, it's something that
excites a whole bunch of people
568
00:36:01,140 --> 00:36:03,540
who I love working with, I love
working with QA and testing
569
00:36:03,540 --> 00:36:06,540
professionals. And you know,
and, and I can, you know, in
570
00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:09,390
that situation, why I can
perhaps introduce you to someone
571
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:13,530
some. So, there's that element
of knowing when to hand off and
572
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:16,230
knowing when to recommend or
bringing, because, and that
573
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:18,810
works both ways, right? Because
you then find that perhaps
574
00:36:18,810 --> 00:36:21,450
someone speaking to a QA and
testing professional say, Oh, do
575
00:36:21,450 --> 00:36:24,240
you know what? Like, I can give
you a bit about business
576
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:27,300
analysis, but go and speak to
Joe, right. Like, we really need
577
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:30,540
to bring Joe in on this. So it's
that kind of collaborative
578
00:36:30,540 --> 00:36:36,570
constellation of people that get
stuff done, right, with the
579
00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:40,620
disciplines that get stuff done,
all collaborating to get stuff
580
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:43,260
done, and making sure when they
see someone's not there, it's
581
00:36:43,260 --> 00:36:47,730
like, oh, it shouldn't we have
some, you know, enterprise
582
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:50,520
architecture here seems a bit
lacking, you know, that that
583
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:51,270
type of thing.
584
00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:54,540
Joe Newbert: Yeah, you make a
great point in there, you know,
585
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:57,630
it comes back to you doesn't
it's like you refer one way, but
586
00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:00,990
it's not one way it goes both
ways. And so as you say, we
587
00:37:00,990 --> 00:37:05,130
built up that collaboration. And
I'm reminded as well, one thing
588
00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:10,560
I often say, when you do find a
sort of a learned helplessness,
589
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,130
BA is that you think you've got
it bad, you should try being a
590
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:18,540
tester, they get involved much
later, they're given much less
591
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:22,740
focus, and they get on with it
and do it within the constraints
592
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:23,400
that they've got.
593
00:37:24,540 --> 00:37:27,930
Adrian Reed: Yeah, and I mean, I
have huge amounts of respect for
594
00:37:27,930 --> 00:37:30,390
QA and testing professionals,
because one of the things I
595
00:37:30,390 --> 00:37:34,200
think they're, in my experience
very good at is saying, okay,
596
00:37:34,290 --> 00:37:36,960
you've given us, you know,
you've dealt us these cards,
597
00:37:37,110 --> 00:37:41,520
here's the tacit risky, or Now,
here's the tacit risk you are
598
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,360
now taking, if we can only have
that length of time to do what
599
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,780
we need to do. So you know, what
you want to do? informed? And I
600
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:52,890
think that that's another
important point is, I've never
601
00:37:52,890 --> 00:37:56,880
got like, Well, I do have an
issue, because, as you
602
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,940
mentioned, the beginning, I'm
known as a diva, but like, I
603
00:37:59,940 --> 00:38:02,430
don't have an issue with an
informed decision maker saying
604
00:38:02,430 --> 00:38:05,400
you've got less time to do your
analysis, as long as I have put
605
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:09,450
forward the case that if you if
you cut down to this, here are
606
00:38:09,450 --> 00:38:12,450
your risks, here's what's going
to happen. Here is the
607
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,540
organizational debt you're going
to be carrying. If we do this,
608
00:38:15,570 --> 00:38:17,730
you're fine with that. Okay,
what do you know what, it's your
609
00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:22,260
budget, you're commissioning
this piece of work? Fine. And
610
00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:26,700
you know, and that, and that
sometimes is life, sadly. But it
611
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:30,750
is about that storytelling. And
I normally find if you tell the
612
00:38:30,750 --> 00:38:34,080
story well enough. Yeah, you
can, you can know you can win
613
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,310
them around, but not always.
614
00:38:35,610 --> 00:38:37,800
Joe Newbert: Yeah. And yeah,
it's gonna be under school.
615
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,830
Well, you know, I never get or
they won't give me or whatever.
616
00:38:40,830 --> 00:38:43,170
But actually, as you say, it's
responding and say, Okay, if
617
00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:45,870
that's the way it is, then
you're going to miss out on X,
618
00:38:45,870 --> 00:38:48,870
Y, and Zed I'm not going to be
able to do this. That's the
619
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:53,190
concept potential consequence.
You happy? And if they say yes,
620
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:53,970
move on.
621
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,689
Adrian Reed: Or even better, I
like to do. Okay, so these your
622
00:38:57,689 --> 00:39:00,389
constraints? are they hard
constraints? Can they, you know,
623
00:39:00,389 --> 00:39:03,329
like you said, 10 days, can it?
Is it really 10? Or could it be
624
00:39:03,329 --> 00:39:08,249
11? Like, if I could, you know,
okay, so, you know, it's you can
625
00:39:08,249 --> 00:39:10,349
start to play with to find out
what the real constraints are.
626
00:39:10,379 --> 00:39:14,909
Okay, fine. So I'm here, here's
what I can deliver in 10 days or
627
00:39:14,909 --> 00:39:18,719
whatever. But how about Wait,
you know, I'm just I'm just
628
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,849
picking 10 as a random bucket of
bucket of days. But But how
629
00:39:23,849 --> 00:39:26,249
about we do five and then have a
chat and see where how we're
630
00:39:26,249 --> 00:39:30,839
getting on? Because, in my mind,
I'm thinking because, you know,
631
00:39:31,259 --> 00:39:35,249
you're the execs view or whoever
might have changed when they
632
00:39:35,249 --> 00:39:37,649
start to us, because credibility
comes through delivery,
633
00:39:37,649 --> 00:39:40,469
remember, and that doesn't
necessarily it doesn't always
634
00:39:40,469 --> 00:39:43,439
mean delivery of the end
product. It can be that they
635
00:39:43,439 --> 00:39:46,829
read Oh, my God, this problem
statement. I've never seen
636
00:39:46,829 --> 00:39:49,319
anything clear that you know,
you've probably heard that
637
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:52,079
before. Right? You deliver
something that to you or is just
638
00:39:52,139 --> 00:39:54,869
bread and butter, and they're
like, Oh my God, how did you do
639
00:39:54,869 --> 00:39:57,449
that? Like we've never Yeah,
this is going to be so useful
640
00:39:57,449 --> 00:40:01,229
for us. So like, get something
out. earlier and then say, you
641
00:40:01,229 --> 00:40:04,079
know, I know we said 10 days.
But look, we did this. And you
642
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:06,509
know, you're saying it's gonna
be really useful. How about we
643
00:40:06,509 --> 00:40:10,949
discussed that constraint again,
you know, and then just, again,
644
00:40:10,949 --> 00:40:14,249
it's an informed decision based
on what what they know, a
645
00:40:14,249 --> 00:40:18,929
decision isn't a decision isn't
always a decision forever. It's
646
00:40:18,929 --> 00:40:21,779
a decision at that point in
time. And, you know, I think I
647
00:40:21,779 --> 00:40:24,959
think we should get better at
having conversations about when
648
00:40:24,959 --> 00:40:29,189
is that decided? Until? In what
situations? Will that decision
649
00:40:29,189 --> 00:40:32,489
be revisited? You know, just
because someone's pulled an
650
00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:35,699
arbitrary deadline out of the
air doesn't mean we have to, you
651
00:40:35,699 --> 00:40:39,059
know, burn out an entire team to
deliver it. If that's not the
652
00:40:39,059 --> 00:40:42,179
right thing to do when burning
out a team is almost certainly
653
00:40:42,179 --> 00:40:43,439
never the right thing to do.
654
00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:47,850
Joe Newbert: Yeah, it's
questioning again, isn't it
655
00:40:47,850 --> 00:40:50,520
really just making sure that
we're solving the right problem?
656
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:56,010
In the right way. You're talking
earlier, you know, about the way
657
00:40:56,010 --> 00:40:59,340
that you know, these roles are
set up in organizations, I mean,
658
00:40:59,340 --> 00:41:03,090
I often get a mental picture of
like, a floor plan in an
659
00:41:03,090 --> 00:41:06,120
organization with cubicles
because it feels like that
660
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,120
sometimes that there are
cubicles, if you pop your head
661
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,900
up, you can like look over and
see everybody, but often, you
662
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:16,020
know, our heads are just down
and we get in on within that
663
00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:19,770
particular discipline, I often
think that it's the same with
664
00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:22,950
bodies of knowledge, you know,
they're all so distinct from
665
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:25,590
each other, and, you know,
almost trying to keep each other
666
00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:29,400
at shoulders, lens and say,
like, we're the most important
667
00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:35,100
body of knowledge. And I feel
sometimes, in all of that, we
668
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:38,550
perhaps lose that collaboration
that you were talking about
669
00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:43,170
earlier. And what I'm
transitioning to now is
670
00:41:43,170 --> 00:41:48,330
community, and as as these nice
roles emerge, and they probably
671
00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:50,850
all get their own bodies of
knowledge that tell them how to
672
00:41:50,850 --> 00:41:55,020
do their, their jobs, which, you
know, I use the word dilute
673
00:41:55,020 --> 00:41:57,690
here, quite lightly. I mean,
it's going to dilute business
674
00:41:57,690 --> 00:42:02,820
analysis to an extent
potentially, how can we retain a
675
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:07,050
sense of community of business
analysis across niche
676
00:42:07,050 --> 00:42:09,750
disciplines? I feel like that
could be quite a challenge.
677
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:16,500
Adrian Reed: It could. I don't
know. The I don't know the
678
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:22,560
answer to that. But a way I look
at it is if we, if we zoom out
679
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,900
and think that we are all
practitioners of change is an
680
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,720
ugly, clunky phrase, but that
they're lovely. And but there'll
681
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:32,640
be people saying, Oh, well, we
do product, you know, we're
682
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,400
product not change. It's like,
yeah, okay, but you're changing.
683
00:42:36,090 --> 00:42:38,640
Like you're incrementally
developing and delivering a
684
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,310
product or whatever. But there's
still change, right? But we've
685
00:42:41,310 --> 00:42:46,890
all got something in common.
Like, I don't care. Particularly
686
00:42:46,890 --> 00:42:49,560
this is just me speaking. Now,
I'm not saying anyone else
687
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,700
should think like this. I'm just
saying how I think I don't care
688
00:42:53,970 --> 00:42:58,830
what my role title is. I don't
care what the clients I work
689
00:42:58,830 --> 00:43:03,720
with what they call my work. I
call it business analysis. And I
690
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:07,230
know I you know, I bleed into
other disciplines. And I think
691
00:43:07,230 --> 00:43:12,120
there are enough of us around.
And I think I was if I was
692
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,710
having this conversation. I
think it was with Fabricio for
693
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:20,610
Bristow, Laguna Laguna in
Brazil, the Brazilian BA, who,
694
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,540
again, anyone listening should
definitely follow. And we were
695
00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:27,780
chatting about stuff. And I was
saying it's interesting, because
696
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:32,610
like, there used to be, there
always used to be a central hub
697
00:43:32,610 --> 00:43:36,360
for stuff, right? Yeah. So like,
and that had to be there. And
698
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,600
I'm going back to the I used to
live in a windmill time of my
699
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,760
life when, because the central
orchestrating organization
700
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,840
controlled information, right,
because you couldn't live like
701
00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:52,890
that, there was a time when it
wasn't as easy to get as much
702
00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:56,310
content as we will get Now
certainly wasn't as easy to get
703
00:43:56,490 --> 00:44:01,440
like for us to do this 30 years
ago, and get people to listen to
704
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,530
it would probably have involved
sending audio cassettes or CDs
705
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:09,480
in the post or something, right?
You know, maybe this says that,
706
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,020
that kind of that kind of thing.
But whereas, whereas now that
707
00:44:13,020 --> 00:44:19,680
need for a central body to do
stuff is communities can self
708
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,120
organize. So when our sphincter
for breast, cloudy idea came
709
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,400
into my head, it's like, it's
like we're moving away from,
710
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:31,920
like, everything orbiting around
some central sun, to like a
711
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,820
constellation of different
people and organizations, and,
712
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,260
you know, and they can all exist
and all thrive. And but you
713
00:44:40,260 --> 00:44:43,950
don't have to be a large
organization to, to do stuff and
714
00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:46,590
you know, and the bat and where
we placed, the boundary of that
715
00:44:46,590 --> 00:44:49,650
galaxy is largely a social
construct, right? We you know,
716
00:44:49,650 --> 00:44:52,170
you might draw that boundary in
a different place for the way
717
00:44:52,170 --> 00:44:55,650
you practice business analysis
to where I do, but that doesn't
718
00:44:55,650 --> 00:44:58,050
matter because you're doing
awesome work for your clients
719
00:44:58,050 --> 00:45:00,300
and you're doing the stuff they
need and you know, trying to do
720
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:04,470
the same for, for mine. So. So I
guess that's a really long
721
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:08,610
winded way of saying that I I'm
not sure how much the identity I
722
00:45:08,610 --> 00:45:12,600
don't think the identity matters
to people outside of the
723
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:18,720
community, anywhere near as much
as it does to us inside. And I
724
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:24,180
just a crazy analogy to draw
there is I remember being with a
725
00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:29,460
relative in who had a bit of a
fall in accident emergency, so
726
00:45:29,460 --> 00:45:34,650
the emergency room of a
hospital. And there are all
727
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:39,600
sorts of person visiting this
relative who'd taken a fool, all
728
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,560
of whom had different titles.
And you know what, as a patient
729
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,800
and as a relative part of a
patient, you just don't care. I
730
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,470
don't care whether that person
is a nurse practitioner and
731
00:45:49,470 --> 00:45:52,710
advanced nurse practitioner, a
doctor, a registrar, a senior
732
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:56,640
registrar, a junior doctor, you
know, a radiologist and all that
733
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,760
orthopedic registrar, or
whatever, none of those things,
734
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,190
I don't care where those
boundaries are, what I want is
735
00:46:02,190 --> 00:46:05,640
this, I want the good clinical
outcome for that patient. And I
736
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,710
want that that community to have
decided who needs to do what,
737
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:16,020
when, and, you know, what, if an
emergency occurs, and someone
738
00:46:16,050 --> 00:46:19,740
you know, heaven forbid, has a
cardiac arrest or whatever, and
739
00:46:19,740 --> 00:46:23,010
the right person isn't there, I
probably want the the people
740
00:46:23,010 --> 00:46:25,500
around to have enough training
to deal with it while they get
741
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:29,610
there. And put that into our
world. And I know it's a crass
742
00:46:29,610 --> 00:46:32,430
analogy, but put that into our
world. We're like, oh, no,
743
00:46:32,430 --> 00:46:34,680
everyone has to care that we're
business analysts, and we're and
744
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,120
we're not whatever. No, it's I
just think it I think we
745
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,830
sometimes place, you know,
understand why it's important.
746
00:46:43,830 --> 00:46:48,720
But if we focus on actually what
clients customers stakeholders
747
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:54,060
want, and put that first, and
worry about the identity second,
748
00:46:55,260 --> 00:46:56,250
I think we'll be fine.
749
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:02,010
Joe Newbert: Yeah, I think so to
read, what you said resonates a
750
00:47:02,010 --> 00:47:05,160
lot. I've often thought that,
you know, we often pick up a
751
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,030
book or book that prescribes a
particular way of doing our job,
752
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:13,680
and everybody's going about
their life wanting some change.
753
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,620
And we saw pointed a book and
go, no, no, we're like, we're
754
00:47:16,620 --> 00:47:19,470
following this, we need to do it
this way. And everyone's like, I
755
00:47:19,470 --> 00:47:23,910
don't care. I just want this
outcome, I want this result. And
756
00:47:23,910 --> 00:47:26,430
that's what we need to
prioritize here.
757
00:47:27,450 --> 00:47:31,200
Adrian Reed: I think so and I
think also, is knowing that
758
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:37,980
practices change. And, you know,
I think it was a guy, I forget
759
00:47:37,980 --> 00:47:44,340
his name, Simon Wardley, who
invented Wardley mapping, I,
760
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,400
again, really interesting person
to look up and follow puts a lot
761
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,210
of this stuff out there for
free. And, but I remember seeing
762
00:47:51,210 --> 00:47:57,780
him speak and he said, by
definition, best practice is
763
00:47:57,780 --> 00:48:02,580
past practice. Right? By
definition, best practice is
764
00:48:02,580 --> 00:48:05,940
past practice. And there's
nothing wrong with that if
765
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:09,420
you're in a completely static
environment, where nothing's
766
00:48:09,420 --> 00:48:12,600
changed. And this is me adding
on to what Simon said there
767
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,270
where nothing's changed. And,
you know, but actually,
768
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:22,350
sometimes, like, you know, it's
totally fine to mold techniques
769
00:48:22,350 --> 00:48:25,590
together. Right? You know, we
all do it. And it's that like,
770
00:48:25,590 --> 00:48:28,590
dirty secret that, oh, you know,
what, this isn't a, you know,
771
00:48:28,770 --> 00:48:32,190
this isn't a pure way of using
technique, but it gets the job
772
00:48:32,190 --> 00:48:35,970
done. And that's, that's what's
important. And I think that, you
773
00:48:35,970 --> 00:48:42,270
know, I, I do think that having
toolkits of techniques is really
774
00:48:42,270 --> 00:48:45,690
important. But I think we've all
got to be constantly looking
775
00:48:45,690 --> 00:48:48,450
out. And you know, what, if you
see a tool from another
776
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:51,240
discipline that's really useful,
maybe we use it in a different
777
00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,680
way. Like, I would go talk to
them and learn about it and
778
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,950
bring it in. Right, that's,
that's what really excites me is
779
00:48:58,950 --> 00:49:02,310
like, blurring the edges
bringing stuff in from them from
780
00:49:02,340 --> 00:49:06,120
different worlds and getting our
stuff into into their worlds.
781
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:09,480
But but it comes back to that,
you know, the analogy, but
782
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,870
knowing that you're mainly apple
that this is my speciality, and
783
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:15,690
I can do a bit of pair, but go
and speak to the pears and the
784
00:49:15,690 --> 00:49:21,060
oranges and the other fruits and
vegetables are available.
785
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,990
Joe Newbert: Here they are,
you've got a bit more choices.
786
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,200
The last thing I just want to
pick out from what you said as
787
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,780
well is, is about your
constellation, really, and that
788
00:49:33,930 --> 00:49:37,170
the profession will continue the
networking of the profession
789
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,400
will continue, regardless of the
organizations that also exist in
790
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,240
the space. And maybe this comes
back to what you said before as
791
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:48,060
well, just having people that
you can watsapp and you know
792
00:49:48,060 --> 00:49:51,480
that they'll pick up in a day or
two and help you out in the way
793
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,350
that you need help.
794
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:58,230
Adrian Reed: Absolutely. And I
think networking is an
795
00:49:58,290 --> 00:50:03,420
underrated skill. And it doesn't
have to be terrified. I used to
796
00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:08,010
be terrified of networking.
Because I'm not I'm not, I find
797
00:50:08,010 --> 00:50:11,070
meeting people. Terrifying. I
mean, I just do, right. You
798
00:50:11,070 --> 00:50:14,310
know, and particularly in that,
you know, if you think about
799
00:50:15,570 --> 00:50:19,320
networking, you know, you go to
a networking event, and
800
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,440
everyone's in networking mode,
that's, that, to me is just
801
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:29,220
like, it's, I can do it, but
it's, I, you know, but if you go
802
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:34,800
to an event with Bas, everyone
is like, everyone's facing
803
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,430
similar challenges. It's not
like networking, it's like going
804
00:50:38,430 --> 00:50:41,880
to a family reunion or something
in many ways. And, you know,
805
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,210
I've had the, I've been really
fortunate, and I've been able to
806
00:50:45,210 --> 00:50:48,300
come to the, you know, the big
summit, Southern Africa, which
807
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:50,940
is fantastic. And anyone,
whether or not you're in
808
00:50:50,940 --> 00:50:54,630
southern Africa, go, go go look
that up. And you know, and I
809
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:57,540
have really great conversations
with people everyone's friendly,
810
00:50:57,750 --> 00:51:02,340
the big conference Europe, big
beyond, you know, there's, you
811
00:51:02,340 --> 00:51:05,010
know, an event in Germany of
which should be a day, I think
812
00:51:05,010 --> 00:51:09,360
that all these different events
and meetups, so like networking,
813
00:51:09,630 --> 00:51:13,020
inside your organization is
important. But meeting other
814
00:51:13,020 --> 00:51:15,930
Bas, not even just in your
country, and there are a lot you
815
00:51:15,930 --> 00:51:18,810
know, there are like, like
there's zoom, that there's the
816
00:51:18,810 --> 00:51:23,160
Brussels chapter, has a, you
know, a drop in zoom call every
817
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,670
Friday in the UK chapter of IBA
or so, you know, networking
818
00:51:26,670 --> 00:51:30,510
doesn't have to be scary, but
it's, it's, it's great for
819
00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:33,840
learning. And, and you know,
what, it's one of those things
820
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,890
where I found if you put, you
know, if you network from the
821
00:51:37,890 --> 00:51:40,770
perspective of I'm not trying to
get you know, I'm not trying to
822
00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:44,100
get anything out of this by
networking, but you know, what,
823
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:47,610
if I can help someone out, I
will and, and if you ever need
824
00:51:47,610 --> 00:51:50,820
anything, you almost don't even
need to ask if the network is
825
00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:54,240
there, you just sort of put it
on LinkedIn. And you know, and
826
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:56,610
people will help you because
they know you. Whereas if you
827
00:51:56,610 --> 00:51:59,880
haven't networked, then you're
kind of shouting at an empty
828
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,300
room, because you might have
LinkedIn connections. But how
829
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:05,400
many of those LinkedIn
connections do you actually
830
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:07,560
know? So yeah,
831
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,400
Joe Newbert: those are some
wonderful last thoughts. Thank
832
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,220
you for joining me on the show.
Adrienne, it's always a pleasure
833
00:52:14,220 --> 00:52:16,890
to talk to you. And thank you
for everything that you throw
834
00:52:16,890 --> 00:52:21,300
out into the BA constellation. I
think you expand the boundaries
835
00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:23,550
of the universe. And I
appreciate that.
836
00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:28,170
Adrian Reed: Well, no, I do one
thing, I actually do a cheeky
837
00:52:28,170 --> 00:52:34,800
little plug into a place. Ba ba
digest. If you go to ba digest
838
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:39,900
dot link, quarterly, open access
journal, that is now well
839
00:52:39,930 --> 00:52:44,760
magazine rather than journal,
which is completely free. All of
840
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,490
the past editions are completely
free. You don't have to
841
00:52:47,490 --> 00:52:52,530
register. And it's out every
quarter. It is it's technically
842
00:52:52,530 --> 00:52:56,250
indexed by the British Library.
Now. It has an ISSN number,
843
00:52:56,550 --> 00:52:59,460
which is more impressive than it
sounds or less impressive than
844
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:03,510
that sounds. But yeah, so but
that that again, was one of the
845
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:06,210
things we do with with digest is
try and get different
846
00:53:06,210 --> 00:53:09,180
perspectives on business
analysis. So if anyone listening
847
00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:11,580
wants to write an article, you
know, get in touch, there's
848
00:53:11,580 --> 00:53:13,800
absolutely the opportunity for
that as well.