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INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
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INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
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INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
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INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
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INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
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INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
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PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
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PRODUCER: In this episode recorded in January 2025,
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PRODUCER: we're going to be looking at the issue of child
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PRODUCER: criminal exploitation.
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PRODUCER: Child criminal exploitation is a form of child
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PRODUCER: abuse where a child or young person is forced or
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PRODUCER: coerced to engage in criminal activity or commit
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PRODUCER: any type of crime.
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PRODUCER: Since this podcast was recorded, the Crime and
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PRODUCER: Policing Bill has been introduced into
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PRODUCER: Parliament. which would introduce a new specific
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PRODUCER: criminal offence of child criminal exploitation.
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PRODUCER: This would target the adult as the primary
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PRODUCER: offender in causing harm to the child by
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PRODUCER: exploiting them to commit criminal activity.
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PRODUCER: I'm joined by two guests with a wealth of
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PRODUCER: knowledge and experience on the topic to discuss
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PRODUCER: what professionals working with children need to
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PRODUCER: know about criminal exploitation and what can be
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PRODUCER: done to prevent children from being criminally
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PRODUCER: exploited.
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PRODUCER: Denise and Tara, please could you introduce
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PRODUCER: yourselves?
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DENISE ELLIS: Hi my name is Denise Ellis and I'm
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DENISE ELLIS: the service head for the NSPCC Helpline.
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DENISE ELLIS: I have the lead role for child
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DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation as part of my
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DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding role at the Helpline
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DENISE ELLIS: and I have
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DENISE ELLIS: nearly 43 years experience of
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DENISE ELLIS: working with children and families from
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DENISE ELLIS: nought right up to 18 years of age.
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DENISE ELLIS: I previously worked for Manchester
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DENISE ELLIS: Safeguarding Unit, and I currently
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DENISE ELLIS: deliver training to professionals
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DENISE ELLIS: in regards to identifying the signs
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DENISE ELLIS: of child criminal exploitation.
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TARA MELLOWES: My name is Tara Mellowes and I am a
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TARA MELLOWES: Detective Constable based with
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TARA MELLOWES: Leicestershire Police and I work within
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TARA MELLOWES: their exploitation team.
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TARA MELLOWES: So my kind of specialism is child criminal
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TARA MELLOWES: exploitation but we're a team that cross
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TARA MELLOWES: over, so I work alongside officers that
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TARA MELLOWES: specialise in child sexual exploitation and
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TARA MELLOWES: we work together within the exploitation
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TARA MELLOWES: team.
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PRODUCER: Thank you both for joining us on the podcast.
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PRODUCER: Tara, please could you kick things off by giving
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PRODUCER: us a brief overview of what child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation is?
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TARA MELLOWES: Annoyingly, we don't really have a
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TARA MELLOWES: statutory definition for child criminal
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TARA MELLOWES: exploitation. A lot of work is being done
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TARA MELLOWES: by some agencies to try and rectify that.
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TARA MELLOWES: However, we use a broader home office
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TARA MELLOWES: definition which is, effectively, it's
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TARA MELLOWES: a form of child abuse where the child is
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TARA MELLOWES: being exploited to take part in
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TARA MELLOWES: criminal activity, mainly on the behalf of
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TARA MELLOWES: somebody else.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's essentially an individual or groups of
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TARA MELLOWES: people that would take advantage of the
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TARA MELLOWES: imbalance of power that would be between
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TARA MELLOWES: them and a child.
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TARA MELLOWES: That can include coercion,
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TARA MELLOWES: control, manipulation; it's just
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TARA MELLOWES: essentially using all of that to get that
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TARA MELLOWES: child to engage in criminal activity
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TARA MELLOWES: but on behalf of somebody else,
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TARA MELLOWES: for their own gain.
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PRODUCER: Thanks Tara.
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PRODUCER: And Denise, please can you tell us a bit more
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PRODUCER: about the different forms that child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation can take?
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DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so there are many forms of child
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DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be the dealing and transporting of
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DENISE ELLIS: drugs or weapons.
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DENISE ELLIS: It could be growing cannabis.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be encouraged to get involved
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DENISE ELLIS: in theft and burglary.
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DENISE ELLIS: Street crime, such as begging and
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DENISE ELLIS: pickpocketing.
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DENISE ELLIS: Compulsory labour, forced labour.
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DENISE ELLIS: Sexual exploitation.
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DENISE ELLIS: Drug trafficking.
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DENISE ELLIS: Involvement in criminal gangs and violence,
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DENISE ELLIS: modern slavery and stealing or shoplifting.
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DENISE ELLIS: So there are a number of different ways
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DENISE ELLIS: in which children can be criminally
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DENISE ELLIS: exploited.
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PRODUCER: Thanks, Denise.
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PRODUCER: Another type of criminal exploitation that
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PRODUCER: listeners may be familiar with is county lines.
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PRODUCER: Tara, I know this is an area your work covers.
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PRODUCER: Please, can you tell us a bit more about that
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PRODUCER: form of exploitation?
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TARA MELLOWES: That's where the bulk of my work is.
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TARA MELLOWES: We see children being used as drug runners
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TARA MELLOWES: that are trafficked, mainly out of big
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TARA MELLOWES: cities into smaller cities in towns,
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TARA MELLOWES: essentially for the purposes of working on
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TARA MELLOWES: a county line.
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TARA MELLOWES: For those that probably don't know what a
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TARA MELLOWES: county line is, it's effectively a drug
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TARA MELLOWES: dealing line that operates within a town or
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TARA MELLOWES: a city, but may be orchestrated from
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TARA MELLOWES: another larger city outside that force
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TARA MELLOWES: area. And that tends to be mainly crack and
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TARA MELLOWES: heroin drug dealing.
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TARA MELLOWES: And so that's what I see the majority of
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TARA MELLOWES: and a lot of the children that come under
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TARA MELLOWES: my radar have been involved in that.
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PRODUCER: And why are children targets for criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation?
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PRODUCER: You mentioned earlier the imbalance of power
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PRODUCER: between children and perpetrators, for example.
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PRODUCER: Please can you perhaps expand on this and how
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PRODUCER: children come to be targeted?
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TARA MELLOWES: I think vulnerability plays
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TARA MELLOWES: a huge part in that imbalance of
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TARA MELLOWES: power, which naturally exists between an
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TARA MELLOWES: adult and a child.
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TARA MELLOWES: And also I think it's really important to
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TARA MELLOWES: note that whilst there are some groups of
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TARA MELLOWES: children that I would say are more
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TARA MELLOWES: vulnerable to this kind of exploitation, I
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TARA MELLOWES: have seen children from all walks of life
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TARA MELLOWES: become involved.
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TARA MELLOWES: I think we're naturally inclined to see,
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TARA MELLOWES: from a stereotypical perspective, mainly
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TARA MELLOWES: children from deprived areas of larger
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TARA MELLOWES: cities, areas where gang culture is more
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TARA MELLOWES: prominent, children with adverse childhood
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TARA MELLOWES: experiences, children that have gone
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TARA MELLOWES: through the social care system.
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TARA MELLOWES: Yes, they're the ones that come under my
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TARA MELLOWES: radar. But I've also worked with children
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TARA MELLOWES: from the complete opposite end of the
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TARA MELLOWES: spectrum, and I think the consistent factor
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TARA MELLOWES: that I see all through the children that I
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TARA MELLOWES: see is that area of vulnerability.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's that targeting of that vulnerability.
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TARA MELLOWES: Whether that vulnerability within that
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TARA MELLOWES: child is that need for connection, and
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TARA MELLOWES: that's how those children get involved in
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TARA MELLOWES: gang culture. Whether that child's
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TARA MELLOWES: need and the target of the vulnerability is
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TARA MELLOWES: money. We talk about children that come
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TARA MELLOWES: from very deprived areas of the country.
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TARA MELLOWES: I've seen boys in particular who see it as
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TARA MELLOWES: their role within that family to make
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TARA MELLOWES: money for the family.
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TARA MELLOWES: That's how they can get involved.
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TARA MELLOWES: They're enticed by the ability to make a
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TARA MELLOWES: lot of money very quickly, as so they
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TARA MELLOWES: perceive it to be.
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TARA MELLOWES: What normally happens then unfortunately is
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TARA MELLOWES: that the perpetrators will target that
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TARA MELLOWES: vulnerability and create a kind of 'hook',
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TARA MELLOWES: if you like, whatever that 'hook' is to
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TARA MELLOWES: hook that child in.
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TARA MELLOWES: If I took money, for example.
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TARA MELLOWES: The hook for that child is to have that
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TARA MELLOWES: money come in. Someone might say to the
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TARA MELLOWES: child, "right you go and go and sit in that
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TARA MELLOWES: trap house for me for five days in this
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TARA MELLOWES: area and I will pay you £500
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TARA MELLOWES: for doing that for me." That child might go
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TARA MELLOWES: and do that, and they'll do it three or
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TARA MELLOWES: four times and not have any problem.
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TARA MELLOWES: It will feel maybe quite easy to them.
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TARA MELLOWES: They probably don't come under police
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TARA MELLOWES: radar. They're probably not getting
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TARA MELLOWES: arrested. So those three or four times that
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TARA MELLOWES: they've done it, it feels quite easy to
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TARA MELLOWES: make quite a large amount of money; but
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TARA MELLOWES: that's where the hook is.
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TARA MELLOWES: And then that's when things do start to
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TARA MELLOWES: spiral.
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TARA MELLOWES: It might be that on the third or fourth
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TARA MELLOWES: time they've gone and done it, they're
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TARA MELLOWES: arrested by police. All of a sudden, they
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TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody suite.
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TARA MELLOWES: It may be that something's happened and
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TARA MELLOWES: that child has either lost money or lost
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TARA MELLOWES: drugs, and that's how that spirals very,
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TARA MELLOWES: very quickly.
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TARA MELLOWES: I think that's where the children don't see
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TARA MELLOWES: the danger. Something that can feel quite
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TARA MELLOWES: easy or okay at first, they don't
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TARA MELLOWES: see the spiral that it can take very
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TARA MELLOWES: quickly.
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PRODUCER: Listening to you there Tara, I think one of the
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PRODUCER: key points for listeners to remember is that
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PRODUCER: whilst some children are at increased risk,
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PRODUCER: criminal exploitation can happen to any child.
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PRODUCER: So everyone needs to be vigilant.
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PRODUCER: Denise, with this in mind, what are the signs of
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PRODUCER: child criminal exploitation that professionals
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PRODUCER: working with children need to look out for?
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DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so with this, you need to be very
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DENISE ELLIS: careful. We refer to it as 'pennies in the
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DENISE ELLIS: bank'. So what we wouldn't want to do is
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DENISE ELLIS: for somebody just to think, oh,
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DENISE ELLIS: somebody I know has been seen away from
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DENISE ELLIS: home, missing from home or there's been a
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DENISE ELLIS: change in their appearance or they've
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DENISE ELLIS: been missing from school or their behaviours
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DENISE ELLIS: have changed.
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DENISE ELLIS: So, you know, it can be signs to look out
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DENISE ELLIS: for.
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DENISE ELLIS: Use of new slang words.
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DENISE ELLIS: Carrying weapons. Having two mobile phones,
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DENISE ELLIS: that's a common one.
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DENISE ELLIS: It could be graffiti-style tags.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be a change in routine or
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DENISE ELLIS: places seen that they wouldn't normally have
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DENISE ELLIS: been seen.
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DENISE ELLIS: Increased social media usage; we
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DENISE ELLIS: know that young people do tend to
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DENISE ELLIS: be on social media a lot, but it's just
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DENISE ELLIS: looking out and being aware of some of those
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DENISE ELLIS: signs.
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DENISE ELLIS: Again, committing petty crimes and
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DENISE ELLIS: being stopped and
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DENISE ELLIS: seen in places they wouldn't normally be.
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DENISE ELLIS: Wearing expensive clothing that can
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DENISE ELLIS: be a sign — if they've not got the receipt
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DENISE ELLIS: to show that it's been paid for.
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DENISE ELLIS: Where have those extra mobile phones
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DENISE ELLIS: come from? Where have those £200
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DENISE ELLIS: trainers come from?
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DENISE ELLIS: Abusing drugs and alcohol.
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DENISE ELLIS: Refusing to seek medical help.
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DENISE ELLIS: Repeated sexual health conditions,
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DENISE ELLIS: unwanted pregnancies, getting involved in
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DENISE ELLIS: fights, more physical violence.
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DENISE ELLIS: So yeah, there are so many different things.
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DENISE ELLIS: But in regards to county lines,
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DENISE ELLIS: one of the things that— there was one young
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DENISE ELLIS: person who'd said that they were travelling
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DENISE ELLIS: on a train at 12 years of age,
251
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DENISE ELLIS: going outside of the
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DENISE ELLIS: place, the geographical area where they
253
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DENISE ELLIS: normally lived.
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DENISE ELLIS: They said that they were invisible.
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DENISE ELLIS: No one stopped them.
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DENISE ELLIS: No one said hello or, you know, where are
257
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DENISE ELLIS: you going? Why are you on your own?
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DENISE ELLIS: This was a 12-year-old person who's being
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DENISE ELLIS: asked to travel solo to London
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DENISE ELLIS: and was having to go into an area they
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DENISE ELLIS: didn't know before. So if you see somebody
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DENISE ELLIS: and they seem lost or they might have a
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DENISE ELLIS: school uniform that just doesn't fit in with
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DENISE ELLIS: that geographical area.
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DENISE ELLIS: These are signs to look out for.
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PRODUCER: Thanks Denise.
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PRODUCER: And Tara, can you give us an overview of the
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PRODUCER: risks associated with child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation?
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TARA MELLOWES: I think the risks are absolutely huge and
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TARA MELLOWES: are so multifaceted, it's really hard to
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TARA MELLOWES: contain them into a very small, brief
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TARA MELLOWES: overview.
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TARA MELLOWES: But I think for me [the one] that jumps out
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TARA MELLOWES: the most obvious is the criminality element
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TARA MELLOWES: of it. Speaking from a police perspective,
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TARA MELLOWES: our standpoint when we come across children
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TARA MELLOWES: is we don't want to criminalise children.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's not something that we feel comfortable
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TARA MELLOWES: doing. Our first standpoint will always be
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TARA MELLOWES: to look at the broader picture of what's
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TARA MELLOWES: going on for that child but criminalisation
283
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TARA MELLOWES: in itself, whether that's through
284
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TARA MELLOWES: being arrested for drug dealing, if they're
285
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TARA MELLOWES: getting involved in county line drug
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TARA MELLOWES: dealing, it's the criminalisation. If they
287
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TARA MELLOWES: are getting involved in other types of
288
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TARA MELLOWES: offending, whether those children are
289
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TARA MELLOWES: involved in a gang culture and a lifestyle,
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TARA MELLOWES: we get violent offending that crops up with
291
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TARA MELLOWES: it as well.
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TARA MELLOWES: So that's the biggest kind of thing that I
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TARA MELLOWES: see is the risks that child is going to
294
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TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody cell, or
295
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TARA MELLOWES: getting themselves involved in serious
296
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TARA MELLOWES: harm and violence against other people,
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TARA MELLOWES: against each other.
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TARA MELLOWES: That's the bit that I see the most of.
299
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TARA MELLOWES: But then the tail end of that as well is
300
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TARA MELLOWES: the knock-on effect that that has on that
301
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TARA MELLOWES: child, whether that is the physical harm
302
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TARA MELLOWES: to themselves. Getting involved in county
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TARA MELLOWES: line drug dealing normally has an element
304
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TARA MELLOWES: of violence associated with it as well,
305
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TARA MELLOWES: particularly in areas where there's
306
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TARA MELLOWES: numerous county lines running; there can be
307
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TARA MELLOWES: animosity and violence between different
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TARA MELLOWES: entities that are operating in certain
309
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TARA MELLOWES: areas. Those that are getting involved, or
310
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TARA MELLOWES: starting to get involved, in gang culture
311
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TARA MELLOWES: and lifestyle, violence can be used
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00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:55,149
TARA MELLOWES: as a bit of a test or a bit of an
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TARA MELLOWES: initiation to be able to become part of
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TARA MELLOWES: that element.
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TARA MELLOWES: That kind of leads on to the physical and
316
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TARA MELLOWES: the psychological harm of what happens with
317
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TARA MELLOWES: those children.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's something, particularly the
319
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TARA MELLOWES: psychological element of it, isn't
320
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TARA MELLOWES: something that's probably the most
321
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TARA MELLOWES: immediate to them.
322
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TARA MELLOWES: They can go years before
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TARA MELLOWES: those psychological elements become
324
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TARA MELLOWES: apparent and they all form part of, you
325
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TARA MELLOWES: know, quite adverse childhood experiences
326
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TARA MELLOWES: that we talk about when we talk about
327
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TARA MELLOWES: adults and how they behave and how
328
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TARA MELLOWES: their formed later on in life and the
329
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TARA MELLOWES: impact of that is massive.
330
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TARA MELLOWES: And I think that's where the concerns are
331
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TARA MELLOWES: for me. Even those children that have come
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TARA MELLOWES: through and been involved in CCE (child
333
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TARA MELLOWES: criminal exploitation), that maybe feel
334
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TARA MELLOWES: like they've come out of it unscathed, it's
335
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TARA MELLOWES: the impact that that has on later down the
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TARA MELLOWES: line.
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PRODUCER: So there's both the short-term risks, such as
338
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PRODUCER: criminalisation and physical abuse, but also
339
00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:56,159
PRODUCER: those long-term impacts of adverse childhood
340
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,059
PRODUCER: experiences and trauma associated with the
341
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PRODUCER: exploitation. So the risks are really clear.
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PRODUCER: We also know that it can be really difficult to
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PRODUCER: extricate children from criminal exploitation
344
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PRODUCER: once they've become caught up in it.
345
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PRODUCER: So prevention and early intervention takes on an
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PRODUCER: increased importance.
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PRODUCER: Denise, please can you tell us a bit more about
348
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PRODUCER: this?
349
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DENISE ELLIS: Early intervention is incredibly important.
350
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DENISE ELLIS: It can provide targeted expert
351
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DENISE ELLIS: support to help children at risk
352
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DENISE ELLIS: to find a positive path forward away
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DENISE ELLIS: from criminality.
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DENISE ELLIS: So things to consider: early recognition
355
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DENISE ELLIS: nips things in the bud.
356
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DENISE ELLIS: That's one of the key things.
357
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DENISE ELLIS: It prevents normalisation.
358
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DENISE ELLIS: And one of the things that we hear from
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DENISE ELLIS: young people who are being criminally
360
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DENISE ELLIS: exploited is that they think that it's
361
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DENISE ELLIS: normal. That it's normal to carry weapons.
362
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DENISE ELLIS: It's normal to carry drugs.
363
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DENISE ELLIS: It's not normal to be raped.
364
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DENISE ELLIS: It is never normal to raped or
365
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DENISE ELLIS: abused in any way.
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DENISE ELLIS: It prevents escalation of more serious
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DENISE ELLIS: crime. Obviously the grooming and
368
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DENISE ELLIS: the drawing young people into this,
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DENISE ELLIS: what they portray as a fantastic
370
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DENISE ELLIS: world of, you know, do you want to have
371
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DENISE ELLIS: a £200 pair of trainers or do you wanna earn
372
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DENISE ELLIS: £500 pound.
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DENISE ELLIS: For some young people that's a lure.
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DENISE ELLIS: That's kind of... this sounds fabulous.
375
00:15:28,402 --> 00:15:31,359
DENISE ELLIS: They don't have to do anything at first.
376
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DENISE ELLIS: But nipping things in the bud and
377
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DENISE ELLIS: early interventions prevents that escalation
378
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,939
DENISE ELLIS: of more serious crime because nothing
379
00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,079
DENISE ELLIS: is free in this world.
380
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,979
DENISE ELLIS: So if you've got a brand new
381
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DENISE ELLIS: £200 pair of trainers or mobile phone,
382
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,399
DENISE ELLIS: there is some kind of payback for that.
383
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,379
DENISE ELLIS: So it might start off with, "oh, can
384
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:58,399
DENISE ELLIS: you just transport some cannabis for
385
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,339
DENISE ELLIS: us?" But that cannabis then turns into
386
00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:05,259
DENISE ELLIS: Class A drugs such as cocaine, heroin,
387
00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:08,359
DENISE ELLIS: crack cocaine and the increase in
388
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,989
DENISE ELLIS: criminalisation goes up and up.
389
00:16:10,990 --> 00:16:12,990
DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention
390
00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:16,929
DENISE ELLIS: breaks that kind of cycle.
391
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,429
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents criminalising children.
392
00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:24,669
DENISE ELLIS: We often hear professionals use
393
00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:26,949
DENISE ELLIS: criminalising language.
394
00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:29,449
DENISE ELLIS: You know, "oh the young person was
395
00:16:29,450 --> 00:16:32,509
DENISE ELLIS: promiscuous" — you're using blaming language
396
00:16:32,510 --> 00:16:35,909
DENISE ELLIS: for somebody who's a potential victim.
397
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:38,069
DENISE ELLIS: So there should be no blaming.
398
00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:41,009
DENISE ELLIS: Young people who have been exploited
399
00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:43,069
DENISE ELLIS: are victims.
400
00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:46,049
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents entrenched criminal behaviour
401
00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:49,309
DENISE ELLIS: because once that becomes the normalisation,
402
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,749
DENISE ELLIS: once that becomes part of your lifestyle,
403
00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:55,129
DENISE ELLIS: it's hard to break that cycle.
404
00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:58,049
DENISE ELLIS: So it's easier to break if
405
00:16:58,050 --> 00:16:59,849
DENISE ELLIS: early intervention is there.
406
00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:03,588
DENISE ELLIS: It avoids going up in the chain of
407
00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:05,088
DENISE ELLIS: criminality.
408
00:17:08,351 --> 00:17:10,379
DENISE ELLIS: We've seen a hierarchy of gangs for instance.
409
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:13,479
DENISE ELLIS: So you have the faces, you have the
410
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,578
DENISE ELLIS: elders and the ones who are high up in
411
00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:19,539
DENISE ELLIS: that chain and that leads
412
00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:21,459
DENISE ELLIS: to the people who are on the streets, who
413
00:17:21,460 --> 00:17:23,759
DENISE ELLIS: are dealing with guns, who are dealing with
414
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,539
DENISE ELLIS: drugs and weapons.
415
00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:30,039
DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention breaks that chain of
416
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,039
DENISE ELLIS: going up in the hierarchal kind
417
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,119
DENISE ELLIS: of more serious criminality.
418
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,189
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents serious health and fatalities.
419
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:42,629
DENISE ELLIS: We know and we've seen that young people
420
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:45,669
DENISE ELLIS: who are exploited are at risk of serious
421
00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:48,749
DENISE ELLIS: harm, so that early intervention is
422
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:52,049
DENISE ELLIS: key. It provides life opportunities
423
00:17:52,050 --> 00:17:54,372
DENISE ELLIS: and alternative means of successes.
424
00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:59,149
DENISE ELLIS: So when children are seeing these lifestyles
425
00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:02,109
DENISE ELLIS: of, you know, these big mansions, these
426
00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:05,089
DENISE ELLIS: fantastic cars, things that people
427
00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:06,603
DENISE ELLIS: like pop stars and footballers have;
428
00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:10,769
DENISE ELLIS: they feel that they're entering into a world
429
00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:13,429
DENISE ELLIS: where all these things are gonna be given to
430
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:16,329
DENISE ELLIS: them. But to break that cycle and get
431
00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:19,189
DENISE ELLIS: them on the path of other successes, of
432
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:22,469
DENISE ELLIS: career choices, is what is amazing with
433
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:24,169
DENISE ELLIS: early intervention.
434
00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:26,809
DENISE ELLIS: So they're just a few safeguarding examples
435
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:27,976
DENISE ELLIS: of how early intervention can help.
436
00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:32,429
PRODUCER: And what are some of the elements of strong
437
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:35,222
PRODUCER: early intervention? What does that look like?
438
00:18:35,223 --> 00:18:38,049
DENISE ELLIS: We often look at offender and victim.
439
00:18:38,050 --> 00:18:41,449
DENISE ELLIS: So, in order to focus on supporting
440
00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:44,369
DENISE ELLIS: young people who are trapped,
441
00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:47,249
DENISE ELLIS: it's important that we have to tackle
442
00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:49,069
DENISE ELLIS: exploitation.
443
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:50,969
DENISE ELLIS: If you're a specialised practitioner, such
444
00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:53,829
DENISE ELLIS: as a caseworker or a police investigator,
445
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:56,669
DENISE ELLIS: then it's about being able to recognise the
446
00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:59,689
DENISE ELLIS: signs of child exploitation,
447
00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:02,689
DENISE ELLIS: to identify the risks, the
448
00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:05,819
DENISE ELLIS: harm and to disrupt those offenders.
449
00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:08,859
DENISE ELLIS: I think that's the most important thing.
450
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:10,819
DENISE ELLIS: You know, rather than the focus being on
451
00:19:10,820 --> 00:19:13,899
DENISE ELLIS: somebody who is shoplifting
452
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,859
DENISE ELLIS: or who is carrying drugs or weapons,
453
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:20,479
DENISE ELLIS: who is it that's targeted these young
454
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,159
DENISE ELLIS: people? The focus has to be on them and
455
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,419
DENISE ELLIS: disrupting their chain and line
456
00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:28,579
DENISE ELLIS: of exploitation.
457
00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:30,819
DENISE ELLIS: It's about supporting frontline
458
00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:33,909
DENISE ELLIS: practitioners and promoting collaborative
459
00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:35,869
DENISE ELLIS: opportunities.
460
00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:38,429
DENISE ELLIS: Anyone working with young people has a
461
00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,429
DENISE ELLIS: crucial role in dealing with
462
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:44,489
DENISE ELLIS: incidents when they happen and immediately,
463
00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:46,749
DENISE ELLIS: and again, it's that timeline.
464
00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,029
DENISE ELLIS: The earlier you can intervene and
465
00:19:50,030 --> 00:19:54,049
DENISE ELLIS: disrupt these exploitive behaviours,
466
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,749
DENISE ELLIS: the more valuable that is for uncovering
467
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:59,689
DENISE ELLIS: child exploitation.
468
00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:02,309
DENISE ELLIS: Everyone who engages with children has a
469
00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:03,869
DENISE ELLIS: part to play.
470
00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:06,509
DENISE ELLIS: Sometimes people just think it's children's
471
00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:09,169
DENISE ELLIS: services. You know, the family need a social
472
00:20:09,170 --> 00:20:12,929
DENISE ELLIS: worker. It's not just social services.
473
00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:16,529
DENISE ELLIS: Everyone has a role to play in listening and
474
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,989
DENISE ELLIS: acting on those concerns.
475
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:22,989
DENISE ELLIS: Some people may have been sitting on
476
00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:25,469
DENISE ELLIS: concerns for more than six months.
477
00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:27,319
DENISE ELLIS: It's never too late.
478
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,399
DENISE ELLIS: That would be my message. That would my key
479
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,459
DENISE ELLIS: message. It's never too late to report abuse
480
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:35,519
DENISE ELLIS: or to report any concerns that
481
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,859
DENISE ELLIS: you have.
482
00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:39,739
DENISE ELLIS: So for the young girl who was 12, who
483
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:42,659
DENISE ELLIS: travelled on that train and who felt that
484
00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:45,519
DENISE ELLIS: she was invisible; we shouldn't let young
485
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,759
DENISE ELLIS: people be invisible.
486
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,679
DENISE ELLIS: They are at risk if they
487
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,399
DENISE ELLIS: are being exploited.
488
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,129
DENISE ELLIS: They may not know it.
489
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,789
DENISE ELLIS: Like I said before, it may seem just normal
490
00:20:56,790 --> 00:20:59,829
DENISE ELLIS: behaviour for them, but if
491
00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:02,829
DENISE ELLIS: they are being coerced or controlled
492
00:21:02,830 --> 00:21:06,549
DENISE ELLIS: or paid or isolated
493
00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:09,289
DENISE ELLIS: because they're not allowed to go anywhere
494
00:21:09,290 --> 00:21:12,529
DENISE ELLIS: until that person who's controlling
495
00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:14,549
DENISE ELLIS: them says they can.
496
00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:15,999
DENISE ELLIS: That's abuse.
497
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,699
PRODUCER: Absolutely, and I think we need to be really
498
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,759
PRODUCER: clear here that child criminal exploitation of
499
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080
PRODUCER: any kind is a form of child abuse.
500
00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:26,339
PRODUCER: Tara, please can you go into a bit more detail
501
00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:28,559
PRODUCER: about the work that the police does with
502
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,159
PRODUCER: children who are experiencing child criminal
503
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,299
PRODUCER: exploitation?
504
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,399
TARA MELLOWES: I can only speak for the way that my
505
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,319
TARA MELLOWES: force works; other forces have very
506
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,999
TARA MELLOWES: different ways of working.
507
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,099
TARA MELLOWES: So from my perspective, the support that we
508
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,479
TARA MELLOWES: provide is from a context of if
509
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,659
TARA MELLOWES: that child's been involved in criminal
510
00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:49,779
TARA MELLOWES: activity, they've been involved in criminal
511
00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:53,599
TARA MELLOWES: exploitation, and there is an element of
512
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,999
TARA MELLOWES: disruption that could be done for that
513
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,379
TARA MELLOWES: child, there's an element of disrupting the
514
00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:59,699
TARA MELLOWES: perpetrators, that's my role and that's
515
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:01,799
TARA MELLOWES: what I would seek to do to protect that
516
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,019
TARA MELLOWES: child but also to protect other children
517
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:05,819
TARA MELLOWES: from those perpetrators.
518
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:08,279
TARA MELLOWES: I can either do that with or without a
519
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,359
TARA MELLOWES: child's support. Those are the tools that
520
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,319
TARA MELLOWES: are given to me to be able to take that
521
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,139
TARA MELLOWES: down the criminal justice route.
522
00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:17,539
TARA MELLOWES: I'm a police officer so I look to go down
523
00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:19,619
TARA MELLOWES: that route because that's what my job role
524
00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:22,659
TARA MELLOWES: entails. But there's also an element of
525
00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:25,559
TARA MELLOWES: support with regards to being able
526
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,759
TARA MELLOWES: to bring other professionals in to be able
527
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,739
TARA MELLOWES: to help that child, to be able to tap
528
00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,239
TARA MELLOWES: into different resources, normally from a
529
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,039
TARA MELLOWES: social care perspective, but there's also
530
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,399
TARA MELLOWES: some really fantastic charities up and down
531
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,399
TARA MELLOWES: the country that specialise in support
532
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,139
TARA MELLOWES: that can be given to that child.
533
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:45,159
TARA MELLOWES: When I step away from my role or the
534
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,739
TARA MELLOWES: criminal justice element has been
535
00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,439
TARA MELLOWES: finalised, I have resources to be able to
536
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,999
TARA MELLOWES: direct towards that child to be able to
537
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,239
TARA MELLOWES: support the overarching and the longer
538
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,539
TARA MELLOWES: term support, if that makes sense.
539
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:02,079
TARA MELLOWES: All forces have Working Together
540
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,099
TARA MELLOWES: strategies, so if we've got a child that's
541
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:06,999
TARA MELLOWES: starting to come under the radar — whether
542
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,359
TARA MELLOWES: that's under police radar or whether that's
543
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,579
TARA MELLOWES: under radar of social care, schools or
544
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,279
TARA MELLOWES: professionals — we have a process where
545
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,319
TARA MELLOWES: that concern is flagged up and then
546
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,179
TARA MELLOWES: all of the agencies that are involved with
547
00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:21,539
TARA MELLOWES: that child come together.
548
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,579
TARA MELLOWES: We look at where the threat might be, we
549
00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:26,519
TARA MELLOWES: look at what's going on and
550
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,299
TARA MELLOWES: have a think about who is best placed to be
551
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,599
TARA MELLOWES: able to do that, what you were talking
552
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,319
TARA MELLOWES: about with the early intervention.
553
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,199
TARA MELLOWES: Sometimes it's the early intervention from
554
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,499
TARA MELLOWES: a police perspective.
555
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,679
TARA MELLOWES: We have a team of detectives, we have team
556
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,579
TARA MELLOWES: of uniformed officers — PCs if you
557
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:43,099
TARA MELLOWES: like, although they don't wear their uniform
558
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,859
TARA MELLOWES: when they support the children — but they
559
00:23:45,860 --> 00:23:48,859
TARA MELLOWES: are kind of a resource to be able to go
560
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:50,119
TARA MELLOWES: and visit children.
561
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,679
TARA MELLOWES: They'll build a rapport with that child,
562
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,399
TARA MELLOWES: they will go and have a chat, they will
563
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,639
TARA MELLOWES: visit and they're just effectively a go-to
564
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,239
TARA MELLOWES: point for that child.
565
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,879
TARA MELLOWES: If that ends up with the child being able
566
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,019
TARA MELLOWES: to talk more about what's happened to them
567
00:24:05,020 --> 00:24:07,799
TARA MELLOWES: to the police officer, or they may find it
568
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,119
TARA MELLOWES: easier to talk to a social care
569
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,259
TARA MELLOWES: professional that's been put in to support
570
00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,950
TARA MELLOWES: as well, there's
571
00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:17,779
TARA MELLOWES: both areas of support there.
572
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,859
PRODUCER: Thanks Tara. It's really interesting to get an
573
00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:22,899
PRODUCER: insight into how the police respond to criminal
574
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,639
PRODUCER: exploitation.
575
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,179
PRODUCER: Now, obviously the police is just one avenue for
576
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:29,399
PRODUCER: support with this issue.
577
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,959
PRODUCER: Denise, where else can people go to for support
578
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,879
PRODUCER: if they are concerned that a child they know or
579
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,349
PRODUCER: work with is being criminally exploited?
580
00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:41,269
DENISE ELLIS: So anyone who's got concern for a child,
581
00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:44,249
DENISE ELLIS: I would say reach out sooner
582
00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:45,629
DENISE ELLIS: rather than later.
583
00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:48,569
DENISE ELLIS: They can reach out to their statutory
584
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:51,969
DENISE ELLIS: agencies, which is children's services or
585
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,509
DENISE ELLIS: the police. They can reach out to
586
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:57,149
DENISE ELLIS: their education.
587
00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:59,629
DENISE ELLIS: So if they're in school, to the head
588
00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:02,289
DENISE ELLIS: teacher. Speak to the designated
589
00:25:02,290 --> 00:25:04,749
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer at the school.
590
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:08,069
DENISE ELLIS: Every school should have a designated
591
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:09,649
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer.
592
00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:12,749
DENISE ELLIS: Speak to their local GP
593
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:15,789
DENISE ELLIS: or health services in regards
594
00:25:15,790 --> 00:25:19,189
DENISE ELLIS: to if they feel that there's any sexual
595
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:20,949
DENISE ELLIS: exploitation.
596
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:23,548
DENISE ELLIS: The NSPCC Helpline, there is also Childline,
597
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:26,529
DENISE ELLIS: there are legal services.
598
00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:29,549
DENISE ELLIS: There is support out there.
599
00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:31,233
DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you're the only one.
600
00:25:31,234 --> 00:25:34,149
DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you don't want to get
601
00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:35,889
DENISE ELLIS: anybody into trouble.
602
00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:38,789
DENISE ELLIS: What you are doing by reaching out, you are
603
00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:40,209
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding.
604
00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:43,089
DENISE ELLIS: You are being the voice of that young person
605
00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:45,969
DENISE ELLIS: who may not have a voice or who may have
606
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:49,169
DENISE ELLIS: lost their voice or who maybe so scared
607
00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:50,669
DENISE ELLIS: to reach out.
608
00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,649
DENISE ELLIS: They're hoping that someone who is
609
00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:56,589
DENISE ELLIS: a protective factor to them steps in
610
00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:58,969
DENISE ELLIS: and says, "enough is enough.
611
00:25:58,970 --> 00:26:00,449
DENISE ELLIS: I'm here to help.
612
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,309
DENISE ELLIS: I'm hear to listen.
613
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:03,949
DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to judge.
614
00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:06,279
DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to blame.
615
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,259
DENISE ELLIS: It's not your fault, let me help you."
616
00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:12,619
DENISE ELLIS: So the more that people do that,
617
00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:15,059
DENISE ELLIS: the more opportunity and the chance that
618
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:17,919
DENISE ELLIS: we've got to reach out and safeguard more
619
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,079
DENISE ELLIS: young people at risk.
620
00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:22,609
PRODUCER: Thank you. I think that's the perfect message to
621
00:26:22,610 --> 00:26:24,789
PRODUCER: end our discussion on today.
622
00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:27,489
PRODUCER: Thank you, Denise and Tara for taking part in
623
00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:29,969
PRODUCER: this podcast. If you're listening and you want
624
00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:33,329
PRODUCER: to learn more about child criminal exploitation,
625
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:36,049
PRODUCER: we have a suite of resources, including a new
626
00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:39,289
PRODUCER: elearning course on county lines, available on
627
00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:41,989
PRODUCER: the NSPCC Learning website.
628
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:43,729
PRODUCER: Check the podcast shownotes for more
629
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:45,549
PRODUCER: information. Thanks for listening.
630
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,059
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
631
00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:53,459
OUTRO: Podcast.
632
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:55,959
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
633
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,719
OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
634
00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,860
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
635
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,099
OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current
636
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,859
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
637
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:08,959
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our
638
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,884
OUTRO: website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,059
INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
2
00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,959
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
3
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,419
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
4
00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:15,459
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
5
00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:18,199
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
6
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,139
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
7
00:00:24,110 --> 00:00:27,309
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
8
00:00:27,310 --> 00:00:30,929
PRODUCER: In this episode recorded in January 2025,
9
00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:33,149
PRODUCER: we're going to be looking at the issue of child
10
00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:34,390
PRODUCER: criminal exploitation.
11
00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:37,949
PRODUCER: Child criminal exploitation is a form of child
12
00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:40,829
PRODUCER: abuse where a child or young person is forced or
13
00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:43,829
PRODUCER: coerced to engage in criminal activity or commit
14
00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:44,969
PRODUCER: any type of crime.
15
00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:48,409
PRODUCER: Since this podcast was recorded, the Crime and
16
00:00:48,410 --> 00:00:50,249
PRODUCER: Policing Bill has been introduced into
17
00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:53,149
PRODUCER: Parliament. which would introduce a new specific
18
00:00:53,150 --> 00:00:56,809
PRODUCER: criminal offence of child criminal exploitation.
19
00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:58,969
PRODUCER: This would target the adult as the primary
20
00:00:58,970 --> 00:01:01,209
PRODUCER: offender in causing harm to the child by
21
00:01:01,210 --> 00:01:04,409
PRODUCER: exploiting them to commit criminal activity.
22
00:01:04,410 --> 00:01:06,569
PRODUCER: I'm joined by two guests with a wealth of
23
00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:08,929
PRODUCER: knowledge and experience on the topic to discuss
24
00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:11,309
PRODUCER: what professionals working with children need to
25
00:01:11,310 --> 00:01:14,089
PRODUCER: know about criminal exploitation and what can be
26
00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:16,509
PRODUCER: done to prevent children from being criminally
27
00:01:16,510 --> 00:01:17,989
PRODUCER: exploited.
28
00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:19,629
PRODUCER: Denise and Tara, please could you introduce
29
00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:20,609
PRODUCER: yourselves?
30
00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:23,589
DENISE ELLIS: Hi my name is Denise Ellis and I'm
31
00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:27,209
DENISE ELLIS: the service head for the NSPCC Helpline.
32
00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:30,149
DENISE ELLIS: I have the lead role for child
33
00:01:30,150 --> 00:01:33,329
DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation as part of my
34
00:01:33,330 --> 00:01:36,529
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding role at the Helpline
35
00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:39,769
DENISE ELLIS: and I have
36
00:01:39,770 --> 00:01:42,969
DENISE ELLIS: nearly 43 years experience of
37
00:01:42,970 --> 00:01:45,929
DENISE ELLIS: working with children and families from
38
00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:49,679
DENISE ELLIS: nought right up to 18 years of age.
39
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,979
DENISE ELLIS: I previously worked for Manchester
40
00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:54,919
DENISE ELLIS: Safeguarding Unit, and I currently
41
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,199
DENISE ELLIS: deliver training to professionals
42
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,479
DENISE ELLIS: in regards to identifying the signs
43
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,839
DENISE ELLIS: of child criminal exploitation.
44
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,739
TARA MELLOWES: My name is Tara Mellowes and I am a
45
00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:08,359
TARA MELLOWES: Detective Constable based with
46
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,918
TARA MELLOWES: Leicestershire Police and I work within
47
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,439
TARA MELLOWES: their exploitation team.
48
00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:15,839
TARA MELLOWES: So my kind of specialism is child criminal
49
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,099
TARA MELLOWES: exploitation but we're a team that cross
50
00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:22,579
TARA MELLOWES: over, so I work alongside officers that
51
00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:25,219
TARA MELLOWES: specialise in child sexual exploitation and
52
00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:26,865
TARA MELLOWES: we work together within the exploitation
53
00:02:26,866 --> 00:02:27,866
TARA MELLOWES: team.
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PRODUCER: Thank you both for joining us on the podcast.
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PRODUCER: Tara, please could you kick things off by giving
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PRODUCER: us a brief overview of what child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation is?
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TARA MELLOWES: Annoyingly, we don't really have a
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TARA MELLOWES: statutory definition for child criminal
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TARA MELLOWES: exploitation. A lot of work is being done
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TARA MELLOWES: by some agencies to try and rectify that.
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TARA MELLOWES: However, we use a broader home office
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TARA MELLOWES: definition which is, effectively, it's
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TARA MELLOWES: a form of child abuse where the child is
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TARA MELLOWES: being exploited to take part in
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TARA MELLOWES: criminal activity, mainly on the behalf of
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TARA MELLOWES: somebody else.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's essentially an individual or groups of
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TARA MELLOWES: people that would take advantage of the
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TARA MELLOWES: imbalance of power that would be between
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TARA MELLOWES: them and a child.
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TARA MELLOWES: That can include coercion,
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TARA MELLOWES: control, manipulation; it's just
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TARA MELLOWES: essentially using all of that to get that
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TARA MELLOWES: child to engage in criminal activity
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TARA MELLOWES: but on behalf of somebody else,
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TARA MELLOWES: for their own gain.
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PRODUCER: Thanks Tara.
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PRODUCER: And Denise, please can you tell us a bit more
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PRODUCER: about the different forms that child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation can take?
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DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so there are many forms of child
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DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be the dealing and transporting of
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DENISE ELLIS: drugs or weapons.
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DENISE ELLIS: It could be growing cannabis.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be encouraged to get involved
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DENISE ELLIS: in theft and burglary.
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DENISE ELLIS: Street crime, such as begging and
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DENISE ELLIS: pickpocketing.
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DENISE ELLIS: Compulsory labour, forced labour.
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DENISE ELLIS: Sexual exploitation.
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DENISE ELLIS: Drug trafficking.
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DENISE ELLIS: Involvement in criminal gangs and violence,
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DENISE ELLIS: modern slavery and stealing or shoplifting.
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DENISE ELLIS: So there are a number of different ways
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DENISE ELLIS: in which children can be criminally
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DENISE ELLIS: exploited.
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PRODUCER: Thanks, Denise.
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PRODUCER: Another type of criminal exploitation that
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PRODUCER: listeners may be familiar with is county lines.
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PRODUCER: Tara, I know this is an area your work covers.
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PRODUCER: Please, can you tell us a bit more about that
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PRODUCER: form of exploitation?
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TARA MELLOWES: That's where the bulk of my work is.
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TARA MELLOWES: We see children being used as drug runners
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TARA MELLOWES: that are trafficked, mainly out of big
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TARA MELLOWES: cities into smaller cities in towns,
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TARA MELLOWES: essentially for the purposes of working on
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TARA MELLOWES: a county line.
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TARA MELLOWES: For those that probably don't know what a
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TARA MELLOWES: county line is, it's effectively a drug
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TARA MELLOWES: dealing line that operates within a town or
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TARA MELLOWES: a city, but may be orchestrated from
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TARA MELLOWES: another larger city outside that force
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TARA MELLOWES: area. And that tends to be mainly crack and
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TARA MELLOWES: heroin drug dealing.
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TARA MELLOWES: And so that's what I see the majority of
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TARA MELLOWES: and a lot of the children that come under
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TARA MELLOWES: my radar have been involved in that.
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PRODUCER: And why are children targets for criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation?
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PRODUCER: You mentioned earlier the imbalance of power
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PRODUCER: between children and perpetrators, for example.
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PRODUCER: Please can you perhaps expand on this and how
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PRODUCER: children come to be targeted?
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TARA MELLOWES: I think vulnerability plays
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TARA MELLOWES: a huge part in that imbalance of
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TARA MELLOWES: power, which naturally exists between an
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TARA MELLOWES: adult and a child.
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TARA MELLOWES: And also I think it's really important to
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TARA MELLOWES: note that whilst there are some groups of
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TARA MELLOWES: children that I would say are more
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TARA MELLOWES: vulnerable to this kind of exploitation, I
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TARA MELLOWES: have seen children from all walks of life
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TARA MELLOWES: become involved.
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TARA MELLOWES: I think we're naturally inclined to see,
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TARA MELLOWES: from a stereotypical perspective, mainly
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TARA MELLOWES: children from deprived areas of larger
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TARA MELLOWES: cities, areas where gang culture is more
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TARA MELLOWES: prominent, children with adverse childhood
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TARA MELLOWES: experiences, children that have gone
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TARA MELLOWES: through the social care system.
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TARA MELLOWES: Yes, they're the ones that come under my
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TARA MELLOWES: radar. But I've also worked with children
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TARA MELLOWES: from the complete opposite end of the
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TARA MELLOWES: spectrum, and I think the consistent factor
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TARA MELLOWES: that I see all through the children that I
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TARA MELLOWES: see is that area of vulnerability.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's that targeting of that vulnerability.
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TARA MELLOWES: Whether that vulnerability within that
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TARA MELLOWES: child is that need for connection, and
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TARA MELLOWES: that's how those children get involved in
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TARA MELLOWES: gang culture. Whether that child's
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TARA MELLOWES: need and the target of the vulnerability is
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TARA MELLOWES: money. We talk about children that come
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TARA MELLOWES: from very deprived areas of the country.
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TARA MELLOWES: I've seen boys in particular who see it as
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TARA MELLOWES: their role within that family to make
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TARA MELLOWES: money for the family.
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TARA MELLOWES: That's how they can get involved.
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TARA MELLOWES: They're enticed by the ability to make a
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TARA MELLOWES: lot of money very quickly, as so they
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TARA MELLOWES: perceive it to be.
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TARA MELLOWES: What normally happens then unfortunately is
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TARA MELLOWES: that the perpetrators will target that
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TARA MELLOWES: vulnerability and create a kind of 'hook',
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TARA MELLOWES: if you like, whatever that 'hook' is to
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TARA MELLOWES: hook that child in.
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TARA MELLOWES: If I took money, for example.
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TARA MELLOWES: The hook for that child is to have that
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TARA MELLOWES: money come in. Someone might say to the
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TARA MELLOWES: child, "right you go and go and sit in that
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TARA MELLOWES: trap house for me for five days in this
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TARA MELLOWES: area and I will pay you £500
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TARA MELLOWES: for doing that for me." That child might go
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TARA MELLOWES: and do that, and they'll do it three or
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TARA MELLOWES: four times and not have any problem.
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TARA MELLOWES: It will feel maybe quite easy to them.
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TARA MELLOWES: They probably don't come under police
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TARA MELLOWES: radar. They're probably not getting
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TARA MELLOWES: arrested. So those three or four times that
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TARA MELLOWES: they've done it, it feels quite easy to
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TARA MELLOWES: make quite a large amount of money; but
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TARA MELLOWES: that's where the hook is.
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TARA MELLOWES: And then that's when things do start to
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TARA MELLOWES: spiral.
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TARA MELLOWES: It might be that on the third or fourth
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TARA MELLOWES: time they've gone and done it, they're
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TARA MELLOWES: arrested by police. All of a sudden, they
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TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody suite.
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TARA MELLOWES: It may be that something's happened and
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TARA MELLOWES: that child has either lost money or lost
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TARA MELLOWES: drugs, and that's how that spirals very,
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TARA MELLOWES: very quickly.
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TARA MELLOWES: I think that's where the children don't see
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TARA MELLOWES: the danger. Something that can feel quite
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TARA MELLOWES: easy or okay at first, they don't
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TARA MELLOWES: see the spiral that it can take very
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TARA MELLOWES: quickly.
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PRODUCER: Listening to you there Tara, I think one of the
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PRODUCER: key points for listeners to remember is that
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PRODUCER: whilst some children are at increased risk,
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PRODUCER: criminal exploitation can happen to any child.
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PRODUCER: So everyone needs to be vigilant.
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PRODUCER: Denise, with this in mind, what are the signs of
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PRODUCER: child criminal exploitation that professionals
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PRODUCER: working with children need to look out for?
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DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so with this, you need to be very
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DENISE ELLIS: careful. We refer to it as 'pennies in the
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DENISE ELLIS: bank'. So what we wouldn't want to do is
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DENISE ELLIS: for somebody just to think, oh,
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DENISE ELLIS: somebody I know has been seen away from
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DENISE ELLIS: home, missing from home or there's been a
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DENISE ELLIS: change in their appearance or they've
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DENISE ELLIS: been missing from school or their behaviours
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DENISE ELLIS: have changed.
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DENISE ELLIS: So, you know, it can be signs to look out
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DENISE ELLIS: for.
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DENISE ELLIS: Use of new slang words.
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DENISE ELLIS: Carrying weapons. Having two mobile phones,
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DENISE ELLIS: that's a common one.
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DENISE ELLIS: It could be graffiti-style tags.
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DENISE ELLIS: It can be a change in routine or
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DENISE ELLIS: places seen that they wouldn't normally have
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DENISE ELLIS: been seen.
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DENISE ELLIS: Increased social media usage; we
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DENISE ELLIS: know that young people do tend to
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DENISE ELLIS: be on social media a lot, but it's just
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DENISE ELLIS: looking out and being aware of some of those
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DENISE ELLIS: signs.
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DENISE ELLIS: Again, committing petty crimes and
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DENISE ELLIS: being stopped and
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DENISE ELLIS: seen in places they wouldn't normally be.
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DENISE ELLIS: Wearing expensive clothing that can
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DENISE ELLIS: be a sign — if they've not got the receipt
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DENISE ELLIS: to show that it's been paid for.
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DENISE ELLIS: Where have those extra mobile phones
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DENISE ELLIS: come from? Where have those £200
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DENISE ELLIS: trainers come from?
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DENISE ELLIS: Abusing drugs and alcohol.
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DENISE ELLIS: Refusing to seek medical help.
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DENISE ELLIS: Repeated sexual health conditions,
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DENISE ELLIS: unwanted pregnancies, getting involved in
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DENISE ELLIS: fights, more physical violence.
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DENISE ELLIS: So yeah, there are so many different things.
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DENISE ELLIS: But in regards to county lines,
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DENISE ELLIS: one of the things that— there was one young
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DENISE ELLIS: person who'd said that they were travelling
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DENISE ELLIS: on a train at 12 years of age,
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DENISE ELLIS: going outside of the
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DENISE ELLIS: place, the geographical area where they
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DENISE ELLIS: normally lived.
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DENISE ELLIS: They said that they were invisible.
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DENISE ELLIS: No one stopped them.
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DENISE ELLIS: No one said hello or, you know, where are
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DENISE ELLIS: you going? Why are you on your own?
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DENISE ELLIS: This was a 12-year-old person who's being
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DENISE ELLIS: asked to travel solo to London
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DENISE ELLIS: and was having to go into an area they
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DENISE ELLIS: didn't know before. So if you see somebody
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DENISE ELLIS: and they seem lost or they might have a
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DENISE ELLIS: school uniform that just doesn't fit in with
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DENISE ELLIS: that geographical area.
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DENISE ELLIS: These are signs to look out for.
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PRODUCER: Thanks Denise.
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PRODUCER: And Tara, can you give us an overview of the
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PRODUCER: risks associated with child criminal
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PRODUCER: exploitation?
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TARA MELLOWES: I think the risks are absolutely huge and
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TARA MELLOWES: are so multifaceted, it's really hard to
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TARA MELLOWES: contain them into a very small, brief
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TARA MELLOWES: overview.
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TARA MELLOWES: But I think for me [the one] that jumps out
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TARA MELLOWES: the most obvious is the criminality element
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TARA MELLOWES: of it. Speaking from a police perspective,
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TARA MELLOWES: our standpoint when we come across children
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TARA MELLOWES: is we don't want to criminalise children.
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TARA MELLOWES: It's not something that we feel comfortable
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TARA MELLOWES: doing. Our first standpoint will always be
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TARA MELLOWES: to look at the broader picture of what's
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TARA MELLOWES: going on for that child but criminalisation
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TARA MELLOWES: in itself, whether that's through
284
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TARA MELLOWES: being arrested for drug dealing, if they're
285
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TARA MELLOWES: getting involved in county line drug
286
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TARA MELLOWES: dealing, it's the criminalisation. If they
287
00:11:57,370 --> 00:11:59,229
TARA MELLOWES: are getting involved in other types of
288
00:11:59,230 --> 00:12:01,449
TARA MELLOWES: offending, whether those children are
289
00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:03,769
TARA MELLOWES: involved in a gang culture and a lifestyle,
290
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TARA MELLOWES: we get violent offending that crops up with
291
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TARA MELLOWES: it as well.
292
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TARA MELLOWES: So that's the biggest kind of thing that I
293
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TARA MELLOWES: see is the risks that child is going to
294
00:12:12,490 --> 00:12:15,229
TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody cell, or
295
00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:18,269
TARA MELLOWES: getting themselves involved in serious
296
00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:20,549
TARA MELLOWES: harm and violence against other people,
297
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TARA MELLOWES: against each other.
298
00:12:21,890 --> 00:12:24,229
TARA MELLOWES: That's the bit that I see the most of.
299
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:26,189
TARA MELLOWES: But then the tail end of that as well is
300
00:12:26,190 --> 00:12:28,029
TARA MELLOWES: the knock-on effect that that has on that
301
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:31,029
TARA MELLOWES: child, whether that is the physical harm
302
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:33,289
TARA MELLOWES: to themselves. Getting involved in county
303
00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:35,649
TARA MELLOWES: line drug dealing normally has an element
304
00:12:35,650 --> 00:12:38,209
TARA MELLOWES: of violence associated with it as well,
305
00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:39,829
TARA MELLOWES: particularly in areas where there's
306
00:12:39,830 --> 00:12:42,069
TARA MELLOWES: numerous county lines running; there can be
307
00:12:42,070 --> 00:12:44,169
TARA MELLOWES: animosity and violence between different
308
00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:46,069
TARA MELLOWES: entities that are operating in certain
309
00:12:46,070 --> 00:12:48,389
TARA MELLOWES: areas. Those that are getting involved, or
310
00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:50,469
TARA MELLOWES: starting to get involved, in gang culture
311
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:53,369
TARA MELLOWES: and lifestyle, violence can be used
312
00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:55,149
TARA MELLOWES: as a bit of a test or a bit of an
313
00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,049
TARA MELLOWES: initiation to be able to become part of
314
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TARA MELLOWES: that element.
315
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TARA MELLOWES: That kind of leads on to the physical and
316
00:13:01,370 --> 00:13:04,249
TARA MELLOWES: the psychological harm of what happens with
317
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TARA MELLOWES: those children.
318
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TARA MELLOWES: It's something, particularly the
319
00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:08,669
TARA MELLOWES: psychological element of it, isn't
320
00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:10,029
TARA MELLOWES: something that's probably the most
321
00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:11,529
TARA MELLOWES: immediate to them.
322
00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:14,849
TARA MELLOWES: They can go years before
323
00:13:14,850 --> 00:13:16,749
TARA MELLOWES: those psychological elements become
324
00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:19,469
TARA MELLOWES: apparent and they all form part of, you
325
00:13:19,470 --> 00:13:21,509
TARA MELLOWES: know, quite adverse childhood experiences
326
00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:24,289
TARA MELLOWES: that we talk about when we talk about
327
00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:27,809
TARA MELLOWES: adults and how they behave and how
328
00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:30,509
TARA MELLOWES: their formed later on in life and the
329
00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:33,139
TARA MELLOWES: impact of that is massive.
330
00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:36,059
TARA MELLOWES: And I think that's where the concerns are
331
00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:39,119
TARA MELLOWES: for me. Even those children that have come
332
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,189
TARA MELLOWES: through and been involved in CCE (child
333
00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:42,739
TARA MELLOWES: criminal exploitation), that maybe feel
334
00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:45,159
TARA MELLOWES: like they've come out of it unscathed, it's
335
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,179
TARA MELLOWES: the impact that that has on later down the
336
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TARA MELLOWES: line.
337
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PRODUCER: So there's both the short-term risks, such as
338
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,459
PRODUCER: criminalisation and physical abuse, but also
339
00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:56,159
PRODUCER: those long-term impacts of adverse childhood
340
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,059
PRODUCER: experiences and trauma associated with the
341
00:13:59,060 --> 00:14:01,779
PRODUCER: exploitation. So the risks are really clear.
342
00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:03,999
PRODUCER: We also know that it can be really difficult to
343
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,659
PRODUCER: extricate children from criminal exploitation
344
00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:09,219
PRODUCER: once they've become caught up in it.
345
00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:12,039
PRODUCER: So prevention and early intervention takes on an
346
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,839
PRODUCER: increased importance.
347
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,459
PRODUCER: Denise, please can you tell us a bit more about
348
00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:16,460
PRODUCER: this?
349
00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:20,299
DENISE ELLIS: Early intervention is incredibly important.
350
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,359
DENISE ELLIS: It can provide targeted expert
351
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,599
DENISE ELLIS: support to help children at risk
352
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,199
DENISE ELLIS: to find a positive path forward away
353
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,339
DENISE ELLIS: from criminality.
354
00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:35,879
DENISE ELLIS: So things to consider: early recognition
355
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,939
DENISE ELLIS: nips things in the bud.
356
00:14:37,940 --> 00:14:39,243
DENISE ELLIS: That's one of the key things.
357
00:14:39,244 --> 00:14:43,179
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents normalisation.
358
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:44,859
DENISE ELLIS: And one of the things that we hear from
359
00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:46,639
DENISE ELLIS: young people who are being criminally
360
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,859
DENISE ELLIS: exploited is that they think that it's
361
00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,559
DENISE ELLIS: normal. That it's normal to carry weapons.
362
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,679
DENISE ELLIS: It's normal to carry drugs.
363
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,759
DENISE ELLIS: It's not normal to be raped.
364
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,959
DENISE ELLIS: It is never normal to raped or
365
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,939
DENISE ELLIS: abused in any way.
366
00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,599
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents escalation of more serious
367
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,599
DENISE ELLIS: crime. Obviously the grooming and
368
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,642
DENISE ELLIS: the drawing young people into this,
369
00:15:12,643 --> 00:15:15,739
DENISE ELLIS: what they portray as a fantastic
370
00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:18,639
DENISE ELLIS: world of, you know, do you want to have
371
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,039
DENISE ELLIS: a £200 pair of trainers or do you wanna earn
372
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,399
DENISE ELLIS: £500 pound.
373
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,919
DENISE ELLIS: For some young people that's a lure.
374
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,401
DENISE ELLIS: That's kind of... this sounds fabulous.
375
00:15:28,402 --> 00:15:31,359
DENISE ELLIS: They don't have to do anything at first.
376
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,399
DENISE ELLIS: But nipping things in the bud and
377
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,759
DENISE ELLIS: early interventions prevents that escalation
378
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,939
DENISE ELLIS: of more serious crime because nothing
379
00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,079
DENISE ELLIS: is free in this world.
380
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,979
DENISE ELLIS: So if you've got a brand new
381
00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:49,399
DENISE ELLIS: £200 pair of trainers or mobile phone,
382
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,399
DENISE ELLIS: there is some kind of payback for that.
383
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,379
DENISE ELLIS: So it might start off with, "oh, can
384
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:58,399
DENISE ELLIS: you just transport some cannabis for
385
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,339
DENISE ELLIS: us?" But that cannabis then turns into
386
00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:05,259
DENISE ELLIS: Class A drugs such as cocaine, heroin,
387
00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:08,359
DENISE ELLIS: crack cocaine and the increase in
388
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,989
DENISE ELLIS: criminalisation goes up and up.
389
00:16:10,990 --> 00:16:12,990
DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention
390
00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:16,929
DENISE ELLIS: breaks that kind of cycle.
391
00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,429
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents criminalising children.
392
00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:24,669
DENISE ELLIS: We often hear professionals use
393
00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:26,949
DENISE ELLIS: criminalising language.
394
00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:29,449
DENISE ELLIS: You know, "oh the young person was
395
00:16:29,450 --> 00:16:32,509
DENISE ELLIS: promiscuous" — you're using blaming language
396
00:16:32,510 --> 00:16:35,909
DENISE ELLIS: for somebody who's a potential victim.
397
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:38,069
DENISE ELLIS: So there should be no blaming.
398
00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:41,009
DENISE ELLIS: Young people who have been exploited
399
00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:43,069
DENISE ELLIS: are victims.
400
00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:46,049
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents entrenched criminal behaviour
401
00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:49,309
DENISE ELLIS: because once that becomes the normalisation,
402
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,749
DENISE ELLIS: once that becomes part of your lifestyle,
403
00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:55,129
DENISE ELLIS: it's hard to break that cycle.
404
00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:58,049
DENISE ELLIS: So it's easier to break if
405
00:16:58,050 --> 00:16:59,849
DENISE ELLIS: early intervention is there.
406
00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:03,588
DENISE ELLIS: It avoids going up in the chain of
407
00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:05,088
DENISE ELLIS: criminality.
408
00:17:08,351 --> 00:17:10,379
DENISE ELLIS: We've seen a hierarchy of gangs for instance.
409
00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:13,479
DENISE ELLIS: So you have the faces, you have the
410
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,578
DENISE ELLIS: elders and the ones who are high up in
411
00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:19,539
DENISE ELLIS: that chain and that leads
412
00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:21,459
DENISE ELLIS: to the people who are on the streets, who
413
00:17:21,460 --> 00:17:23,759
DENISE ELLIS: are dealing with guns, who are dealing with
414
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,539
DENISE ELLIS: drugs and weapons.
415
00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:30,039
DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention breaks that chain of
416
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,039
DENISE ELLIS: going up in the hierarchal kind
417
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,119
DENISE ELLIS: of more serious criminality.
418
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,189
DENISE ELLIS: It prevents serious health and fatalities.
419
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:42,629
DENISE ELLIS: We know and we've seen that young people
420
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:45,669
DENISE ELLIS: who are exploited are at risk of serious
421
00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:48,749
DENISE ELLIS: harm, so that early intervention is
422
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:52,049
DENISE ELLIS: key. It provides life opportunities
423
00:17:52,050 --> 00:17:54,372
DENISE ELLIS: and alternative means of successes.
424
00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:59,149
DENISE ELLIS: So when children are seeing these lifestyles
425
00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:02,109
DENISE ELLIS: of, you know, these big mansions, these
426
00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:05,089
DENISE ELLIS: fantastic cars, things that people
427
00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:06,603
DENISE ELLIS: like pop stars and footballers have;
428
00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:10,769
DENISE ELLIS: they feel that they're entering into a world
429
00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:13,429
DENISE ELLIS: where all these things are gonna be given to
430
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:16,329
DENISE ELLIS: them. But to break that cycle and get
431
00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:19,189
DENISE ELLIS: them on the path of other successes, of
432
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:22,469
DENISE ELLIS: career choices, is what is amazing with
433
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:24,169
DENISE ELLIS: early intervention.
434
00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:26,809
DENISE ELLIS: So they're just a few safeguarding examples
435
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:27,976
DENISE ELLIS: of how early intervention can help.
436
00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:32,429
PRODUCER: And what are some of the elements of strong
437
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:35,222
PRODUCER: early intervention? What does that look like?
438
00:18:35,223 --> 00:18:38,049
DENISE ELLIS: We often look at offender and victim.
439
00:18:38,050 --> 00:18:41,449
DENISE ELLIS: So, in order to focus on supporting
440
00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:44,369
DENISE ELLIS: young people who are trapped,
441
00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:47,249
DENISE ELLIS: it's important that we have to tackle
442
00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:49,069
DENISE ELLIS: exploitation.
443
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:50,969
DENISE ELLIS: If you're a specialised practitioner, such
444
00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:53,829
DENISE ELLIS: as a caseworker or a police investigator,
445
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:56,669
DENISE ELLIS: then it's about being able to recognise the
446
00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:59,689
DENISE ELLIS: signs of child exploitation,
447
00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:02,689
DENISE ELLIS: to identify the risks, the
448
00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:05,819
DENISE ELLIS: harm and to disrupt those offenders.
449
00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:08,859
DENISE ELLIS: I think that's the most important thing.
450
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:10,819
DENISE ELLIS: You know, rather than the focus being on
451
00:19:10,820 --> 00:19:13,899
DENISE ELLIS: somebody who is shoplifting
452
00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,859
DENISE ELLIS: or who is carrying drugs or weapons,
453
00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:20,479
DENISE ELLIS: who is it that's targeted these young
454
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,159
DENISE ELLIS: people? The focus has to be on them and
455
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,419
DENISE ELLIS: disrupting their chain and line
456
00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:28,579
DENISE ELLIS: of exploitation.
457
00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:30,819
DENISE ELLIS: It's about supporting frontline
458
00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:33,909
DENISE ELLIS: practitioners and promoting collaborative
459
00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:35,869
DENISE ELLIS: opportunities.
460
00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:38,429
DENISE ELLIS: Anyone working with young people has a
461
00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,429
DENISE ELLIS: crucial role in dealing with
462
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:44,489
DENISE ELLIS: incidents when they happen and immediately,
463
00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:46,749
DENISE ELLIS: and again, it's that timeline.
464
00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,029
DENISE ELLIS: The earlier you can intervene and
465
00:19:50,030 --> 00:19:54,049
DENISE ELLIS: disrupt these exploitive behaviours,
466
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,749
DENISE ELLIS: the more valuable that is for uncovering
467
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:59,689
DENISE ELLIS: child exploitation.
468
00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:02,309
DENISE ELLIS: Everyone who engages with children has a
469
00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:03,869
DENISE ELLIS: part to play.
470
00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:06,509
DENISE ELLIS: Sometimes people just think it's children's
471
00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:09,169
DENISE ELLIS: services. You know, the family need a social
472
00:20:09,170 --> 00:20:12,929
DENISE ELLIS: worker. It's not just social services.
473
00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:16,529
DENISE ELLIS: Everyone has a role to play in listening and
474
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,989
DENISE ELLIS: acting on those concerns.
475
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:22,989
DENISE ELLIS: Some people may have been sitting on
476
00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:25,469
DENISE ELLIS: concerns for more than six months.
477
00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:27,319
DENISE ELLIS: It's never too late.
478
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,399
DENISE ELLIS: That would be my message. That would my key
479
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,459
DENISE ELLIS: message. It's never too late to report abuse
480
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:35,519
DENISE ELLIS: or to report any concerns that
481
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,859
DENISE ELLIS: you have.
482
00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:39,739
DENISE ELLIS: So for the young girl who was 12, who
483
00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:42,659
DENISE ELLIS: travelled on that train and who felt that
484
00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:45,519
DENISE ELLIS: she was invisible; we shouldn't let young
485
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,759
DENISE ELLIS: people be invisible.
486
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,679
DENISE ELLIS: They are at risk if they
487
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,399
DENISE ELLIS: are being exploited.
488
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,129
DENISE ELLIS: They may not know it.
489
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,789
DENISE ELLIS: Like I said before, it may seem just normal
490
00:20:56,790 --> 00:20:59,829
DENISE ELLIS: behaviour for them, but if
491
00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:02,829
DENISE ELLIS: they are being coerced or controlled
492
00:21:02,830 --> 00:21:06,549
DENISE ELLIS: or paid or isolated
493
00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:09,289
DENISE ELLIS: because they're not allowed to go anywhere
494
00:21:09,290 --> 00:21:12,529
DENISE ELLIS: until that person who's controlling
495
00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:14,549
DENISE ELLIS: them says they can.
496
00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:15,999
DENISE ELLIS: That's abuse.
497
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,699
PRODUCER: Absolutely, and I think we need to be really
498
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,759
PRODUCER: clear here that child criminal exploitation of
499
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080
PRODUCER: any kind is a form of child abuse.
500
00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:26,339
PRODUCER: Tara, please can you go into a bit more detail
501
00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:28,559
PRODUCER: about the work that the police does with
502
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,159
PRODUCER: children who are experiencing child criminal
503
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,299
PRODUCER: exploitation?
504
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,399
TARA MELLOWES: I can only speak for the way that my
505
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,319
TARA MELLOWES: force works; other forces have very
506
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,999
TARA MELLOWES: different ways of working.
507
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,099
TARA MELLOWES: So from my perspective, the support that we
508
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,479
TARA MELLOWES: provide is from a context of if
509
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,659
TARA MELLOWES: that child's been involved in criminal
510
00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:49,779
TARA MELLOWES: activity, they've been involved in criminal
511
00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:53,599
TARA MELLOWES: exploitation, and there is an element of
512
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,999
TARA MELLOWES: disruption that could be done for that
513
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,379
TARA MELLOWES: child, there's an element of disrupting the
514
00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:59,699
TARA MELLOWES: perpetrators, that's my role and that's
515
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:01,799
TARA MELLOWES: what I would seek to do to protect that
516
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,019
TARA MELLOWES: child but also to protect other children
517
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:05,819
TARA MELLOWES: from those perpetrators.
518
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:08,279
TARA MELLOWES: I can either do that with or without a
519
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,359
TARA MELLOWES: child's support. Those are the tools that
520
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,319
TARA MELLOWES: are given to me to be able to take that
521
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,139
TARA MELLOWES: down the criminal justice route.
522
00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:17,539
TARA MELLOWES: I'm a police officer so I look to go down
523
00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:19,619
TARA MELLOWES: that route because that's what my job role
524
00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:22,659
TARA MELLOWES: entails. But there's also an element of
525
00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:25,559
TARA MELLOWES: support with regards to being able
526
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,759
TARA MELLOWES: to bring other professionals in to be able
527
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,739
TARA MELLOWES: to help that child, to be able to tap
528
00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,239
TARA MELLOWES: into different resources, normally from a
529
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,039
TARA MELLOWES: social care perspective, but there's also
530
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,399
TARA MELLOWES: some really fantastic charities up and down
531
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,399
TARA MELLOWES: the country that specialise in support
532
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,139
TARA MELLOWES: that can be given to that child.
533
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:45,159
TARA MELLOWES: When I step away from my role or the
534
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,739
TARA MELLOWES: criminal justice element has been
535
00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,439
TARA MELLOWES: finalised, I have resources to be able to
536
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,999
TARA MELLOWES: direct towards that child to be able to
537
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,239
TARA MELLOWES: support the overarching and the longer
538
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,539
TARA MELLOWES: term support, if that makes sense.
539
00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:02,079
TARA MELLOWES: All forces have Working Together
540
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,099
TARA MELLOWES: strategies, so if we've got a child that's
541
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:06,999
TARA MELLOWES: starting to come under the radar — whether
542
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,359
TARA MELLOWES: that's under police radar or whether that's
543
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,579
TARA MELLOWES: under radar of social care, schools or
544
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,279
TARA MELLOWES: professionals — we have a process where
545
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,319
TARA MELLOWES: that concern is flagged up and then
546
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,179
TARA MELLOWES: all of the agencies that are involved with
547
00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:21,539
TARA MELLOWES: that child come together.
548
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,579
TARA MELLOWES: We look at where the threat might be, we
549
00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:26,519
TARA MELLOWES: look at what's going on and
550
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,299
TARA MELLOWES: have a think about who is best placed to be
551
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,599
TARA MELLOWES: able to do that, what you were talking
552
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,319
TARA MELLOWES: about with the early intervention.
553
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,199
TARA MELLOWES: Sometimes it's the early intervention from
554
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,499
TARA MELLOWES: a police perspective.
555
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,679
TARA MELLOWES: We have a team of detectives, we have team
556
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,579
TARA MELLOWES: of uniformed officers — PCs if you
557
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:43,099
TARA MELLOWES: like, although they don't wear their uniform
558
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,859
TARA MELLOWES: when they support the children — but they
559
00:23:45,860 --> 00:23:48,859
TARA MELLOWES: are kind of a resource to be able to go
560
00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:50,119
TARA MELLOWES: and visit children.
561
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,679
TARA MELLOWES: They'll build a rapport with that child,
562
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,399
TARA MELLOWES: they will go and have a chat, they will
563
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,639
TARA MELLOWES: visit and they're just effectively a go-to
564
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,239
TARA MELLOWES: point for that child.
565
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,879
TARA MELLOWES: If that ends up with the child being able
566
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,019
TARA MELLOWES: to talk more about what's happened to them
567
00:24:05,020 --> 00:24:07,799
TARA MELLOWES: to the police officer, or they may find it
568
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,119
TARA MELLOWES: easier to talk to a social care
569
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,259
TARA MELLOWES: professional that's been put in to support
570
00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,950
TARA MELLOWES: as well, there's
571
00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:17,779
TARA MELLOWES: both areas of support there.
572
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,859
PRODUCER: Thanks Tara. It's really interesting to get an
573
00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:22,899
PRODUCER: insight into how the police respond to criminal
574
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,639
PRODUCER: exploitation.
575
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,179
PRODUCER: Now, obviously the police is just one avenue for
576
00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:29,399
PRODUCER: support with this issue.
577
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,959
PRODUCER: Denise, where else can people go to for support
578
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,879
PRODUCER: if they are concerned that a child they know or
579
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,349
PRODUCER: work with is being criminally exploited?
580
00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:41,269
DENISE ELLIS: So anyone who's got concern for a child,
581
00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:44,249
DENISE ELLIS: I would say reach out sooner
582
00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:45,629
DENISE ELLIS: rather than later.
583
00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:48,569
DENISE ELLIS: They can reach out to their statutory
584
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:51,969
DENISE ELLIS: agencies, which is children's services or
585
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,509
DENISE ELLIS: the police. They can reach out to
586
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:57,149
DENISE ELLIS: their education.
587
00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:59,629
DENISE ELLIS: So if they're in school, to the head
588
00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:02,289
DENISE ELLIS: teacher. Speak to the designated
589
00:25:02,290 --> 00:25:04,749
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer at the school.
590
00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:08,069
DENISE ELLIS: Every school should have a designated
591
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:09,649
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer.
592
00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:12,749
DENISE ELLIS: Speak to their local GP
593
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:15,789
DENISE ELLIS: or health services in regards
594
00:25:15,790 --> 00:25:19,189
DENISE ELLIS: to if they feel that there's any sexual
595
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:20,949
DENISE ELLIS: exploitation.
596
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:23,548
DENISE ELLIS: The NSPCC Helpline, there is also Childline,
597
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:26,529
DENISE ELLIS: there are legal services.
598
00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:29,549
DENISE ELLIS: There is support out there.
599
00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:31,233
DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you're the only one.
600
00:25:31,234 --> 00:25:34,149
DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you don't want to get
601
00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:35,889
DENISE ELLIS: anybody into trouble.
602
00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:38,789
DENISE ELLIS: What you are doing by reaching out, you are
603
00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:40,209
DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding.
604
00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:43,089
DENISE ELLIS: You are being the voice of that young person
605
00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:45,969
DENISE ELLIS: who may not have a voice or who may have
606
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:49,169
DENISE ELLIS: lost their voice or who maybe so scared
607
00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:50,669
DENISE ELLIS: to reach out.
608
00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,649
DENISE ELLIS: They're hoping that someone who is
609
00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:56,589
DENISE ELLIS: a protective factor to them steps in
610
00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:58,969
DENISE ELLIS: and says, "enough is enough.
611
00:25:58,970 --> 00:26:00,449
DENISE ELLIS: I'm here to help.
612
00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,309
DENISE ELLIS: I'm hear to listen.
613
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:03,949
DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to judge.
614
00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:06,279
DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to blame.
615
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,259
DENISE ELLIS: It's not your fault, let me help you."
616
00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:12,619
DENISE ELLIS: So the more that people do that,
617
00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:15,059
DENISE ELLIS: the more opportunity and the chance that
618
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:17,919
DENISE ELLIS: we've got to reach out and safeguard more
619
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,079
DENISE ELLIS: young people at risk.
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00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:22,609
PRODUCER: Thank you. I think that's the perfect message to
621
00:26:22,610 --> 00:26:24,789
PRODUCER: end our discussion on today.
622
00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:27,489
PRODUCER: Thank you, Denise and Tara for taking part in
623
00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:29,969
PRODUCER: this podcast. If you're listening and you want
624
00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:33,329
PRODUCER: to learn more about child criminal exploitation,
625
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:36,049
PRODUCER: we have a suite of resources, including a new
626
00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:39,289
PRODUCER: elearning course on county lines, available on
627
00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:41,989
PRODUCER: the NSPCC Learning website.
628
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:43,729
PRODUCER: Check the podcast shownotes for more
629
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:45,549
PRODUCER: information. Thanks for listening.
630
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,059
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
631
00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:53,459
OUTRO: Podcast.
632
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:55,959
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
633
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,719
OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
634
00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,860
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
635
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,099
OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current
636
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,859
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
637
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:08,959
OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our
638
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,884
OUTRO: website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.
