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00:00:10.400Welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants, the podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of nonprofit arts management.
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00:00:14.640I'm your host, Leandro Zanetti, and I'm thrilled to have you join us on this journey.
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00:00:19.600In each episode, we'll explore the ever-evolving landscape of the nonprofit arts sector.
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00:00:27.920We'll bring you thought-provoking discussions and innovative strategies to equip you with the knowledge and inspiration to take your organization to new heights.
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00:00:29.440Let's get started.
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00:00:39.200Okay, here we go.
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00:00:45.119Hello and welcome to Moving Forward with Evolution Management Consultants.
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00:00:48.719I'm your host, Leandro, co-founder of EMC.
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00:00:53.679And today we're pulling back the curtain on a little bit more of the executive search process.
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00:00:57.359I'm joined today by my illustrious colleagues, Tiffany and Al.
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00:00:58.000Hey y'all.
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00:00:59.439Hola, hola, hola.
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00:01:00.399Hey, hey, y'all.
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00:01:01.039Good to see y'all.
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00:01:01.759It's been a minute.
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00:01:03.200So glad to join a little bit.
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00:01:05.760Yeah, glad to be all three of us again.
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00:01:11.840And um, we've just launched the search for the new managing director at Portland Center Stage.
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00:01:21.680And we felt like it was the perfect opportunity for us to talk a little bit about how this work like gets done and a little bit more about Portland Center Stage.
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00:01:28.480And so, as you all know, a little bit for our listeners, a job profile is so much more than a list of duties, right?
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00:01:33.040It's a story, it's a reflection of a community, and it's a roadmap for the future.
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00:01:38.239We often talk about our search process as who do you want to be in the future?
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00:01:48.560And today we're digging a little bit into how that story gets written, particularly in the job description and how are we translate our site visits into job descriptions.
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00:01:52.319And then we'll get a little bit into the specifics of Portland Center stage.
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00:02:00.640Um, and so we'll be talking about our site visit, the on-the-ground discoveries, and then what kind of leader is poised to thrive in this role.
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00:02:06.799So whether you're a potential candidate or just fascinated by the how of what we do, this one's for you.
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00:02:08.159Let's dive in, y'all.
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00:02:11.759So our learning starts before we even get to the site visit.
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00:02:14.639Can you talk a little bit about how we prep for these site visits?
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00:02:16.800What do we know before we even get there?
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00:02:18.000Yeah.
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00:02:23.919So first um we ask for discovery docs from the organization.
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00:02:42.159Uh so this can be uh financial audits, um, any programming details, past, present, future, um, any budgets that they have, operational, uh, production budgets, um, board lists, organizational charts.
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00:02:44.080I mean, anything really.
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00:03:01.360Um, and that allows us to really understand where the organization has been and where it is now, um, and also gives us a lot of uh context so that we can craft questions to ask uh stakeholders during our interviews with them in the site visit.
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00:03:09.919Um, and then um we also, for those stakeholders, uh work with our client to uh create a list of people we should talk to.
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00:03:22.639And that usually is most, if not all, of staff, um any board members, uh the search committee, or any funders or artists sometimes or community folks.
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00:03:32.080I even had one where we um met with an audience member, like a really um uh uh a regular, I guess you would say, at the organization.
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00:03:45.120Um uh and that just allows us to get different viewpoints on on where the organization is and also um who people want um in this role.
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00:03:51.439Um and then that also really helps us look to see what is the ecosystem that the organization sits in.
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00:03:55.199Um, so that's literally looking at like, what's the neighborhood like?
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00:03:58.560If it has a if it has a physical venue, what's the neighborhood like?
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00:04:05.280Are there any sort of neighboring arts organizations or other arts organizations in the community that they work with?
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00:04:10.479Um, what's the funding landscape like in that city or that state?
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00:04:13.759Um, what's the public education system like?
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00:04:21.519Um, and that's important to know in case we have candidates who have children um and who will be, you know, possibly relocating.
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00:04:41.279Um so yeah, it's just it's a bunch of things that we learn along the way to just really intuitively understand what this um organization is, who this person needs to be in this role, and what is their physical surrounding like?
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00:04:43.920Yeah, thanks for that, Tiff.
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00:04:51.040And Al, Tiff talked a little bit about um the documents that we ask for from organizations in advance of these.
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00:04:57.519I'm wondering, is there a specific thing that you're looking for as you review these before you even start talking to anybody?
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00:05:03.199Like, what's the thing that you're looking for in the documents to help you prep for the conversations you'll have?
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00:05:12.720You know, what I think about is something that I heard on a podcast um on a markets podcast one time from a professor at NYU Stern.
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00:05:20.560And he was like, The way I talk about uh stocks or companies is that there's a story there.
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00:05:27.600And usually by looking at either the stock price or looking at the financials, you're just trying to figure out like, what is the story here?
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00:05:29.040You know, what is the narrative here?
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00:05:30.160What is going on?
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00:05:36.720Um, and so out of anything that I really dig into, I really dig into the financial pieces.
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00:06:00.000Um, and what's unusual in this moment um is you know, we're coming off of you know, a COVID, you know, boom, boom of you know, real infusion of federal government dollars into organizations, you know, and then you kind of come off that sugar high, so to speak, and now we're in a more maybe normalized cadence.
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00:06:08.639So I really look at those audited financials from you know the last really not even three years, but even five years.
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00:06:15.439Because some of what is important to look at is well, how was this organization sort of doing before 2020?
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00:06:16.319What was happening?
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00:06:17.759What was the story there?
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00:06:19.680You know, where was their earned revenue?
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00:06:21.519Where was their fundraising?
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00:06:34.480Um, you know, what was their programming look like, looking like in particular for theaters and for nonprofits, it's really seeing the difference between not only the financial, you know, story, but also the programmatic story.
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00:06:48.000You know, so many theaters that we work with, you know, talk about I had an eight-show season and now that's down to five, you know, and you see that programmatically uh and financially in an institution, you know.
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00:07:20.879So usually I try to dig into doing some financial analysis, um, where I am trying to see what's been the change over the last year, what what is some of that story, what's been happening more recently, but also when you go back into organizations' histories around 2020, 2019 and compare to what's going on right now, it gives you a real understanding of oh, maybe this is if I'm seeing this in the financials, maybe I'll start to see a little bit of that on the ground.
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00:07:33.600If I'm seeing this programmatically where you're going from eight to five shows, how has that maybe affected the staff or the expectations around earned revenue and contributed revenue?
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00:07:36.160You know, so those numbers tell a story.
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00:07:48.720And a question that I started to enter in with, I know we'll get to them more in a second, but one that I had was really asking staff members and board members, you know, we come in in sort of the middle of the story.
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00:07:52.959Um, so if we're in the middle of the story, where are we in this story?
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00:07:54.079What is going on?
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00:07:56.720What's been happening recently that we need to know?
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00:08:00.639What's been happening in the history of this company that we need to know?
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00:08:03.279What are we sitting in the middle of right now?
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00:08:14.000And I think those financial documents and thinking about that history uh programmatically as well really start to help me understand what we are walking into.
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00:08:21.040Yeah, and so I I love what you're talking about in terms of um starting to craft narrative, right?
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00:08:28.319That all of these documents underpin the history and story of what an organization is going through.
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00:08:31.120So let's now turn to Portland Center Stage.
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00:08:37.200Based on the that initial research that you did, what were what was your snapshot of Portland Center Stage?
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00:08:42.559What were the assumptions that you might have had coming into the site visit that you were looking to test?
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00:08:45.519Al, I know you got into a question you came in with.
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00:08:50.799I wonder if there might have been any assumptions you came in with as you started to visit Portland.
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00:09:00.320You know, I uh I remember telling telling you and Tiff, um, basically being like, I don't I don't really have a sense of Portland.
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00:09:05.120You know, like I had not been in the Pacific Northwest, I hadn't been to Seattle, I hadn't been to Portland.
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00:09:08.159The closest I had been was really Oregon Shakespeare Festival.
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00:09:19.279Um, so all I knew about Portland and Portland Center Stage was Portland Center Stage was like the largest theater there, number one.
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00:09:23.519I knew in their history they used to be tied to Oregon Shakespeare.
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00:09:31.759So I knew there was a narrative of, you know, we Portland Center Stage sort of started as a the northern OSF.
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00:09:38.080And as some of that programming started to modernize, they became a separate entity uh in the 90s.
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00:09:55.440And so, you know, I had this sense of okay, like here's a company that is maybe not as old as some of the other institutions we had worked with, um, you know, but had a prominence being in the middle of this major metropolitan area.
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00:10:17.360Um, and I think I had an initial assumption uh for Portland around uh being a city that was um maybe more progressive, you know, a little more liberalized, you know, than or liberal than you know, most places that, you know, I had been or even I had lived.
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00:10:29.200Um, you know, and I think that gave gives it a kind of culture of, you know, really thinking about what makes Portland special and trying to get in there and understand that.
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00:10:35.519I guess the only other assumption that I really had uh was maybe I knew that it did beer at least well.
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00:10:41.360Like I sort of knew, like, okay, there's something about beer in Portland that that maybe resonates or is maybe there.
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00:10:54.080Um, and certainly knew, you know, coming in, this was like the weekend before we went, you know, the president was going to call troops and National Guard troops into Portland, um, you know, in particular.
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00:10:58.960And so that certainly gives you a context of whoa, you know, what is going on?
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00:11:11.120Is this a different, such a different downtown than I might experience in Atlanta, in DC, you know, where we've been, you and I've been in Leandro, New York, Miami, something like that.
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00:11:15.279So those were some of mine, at least coming from my mind's eye, you know.
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00:11:19.759Tiff, I'm curious what you kind of thought there too, you know, coming from NOLA.
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00:11:24.159I was looking forward to autumn.
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00:11:26.399Actual season, right?
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00:11:27.039Actual season.
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00:11:28.639Yeah, an actual season.
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00:11:30.799Instead of just hot and humid.
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00:11:36.720Um, and I actually I remember I I I when I got to the airport, I said, Oh no, I don't have a coat.
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00:11:38.080Luckily, I didn't really need it.
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00:11:58.080Um and uh, you know, I I I was actually joking uh with the production manager at Portland Center Stage because I because we were looking at like these beautiful mountains and forests, and I was like, that's where serial killers go to dump bodies.
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00:12:02.480And I was like true crime aficionado here.
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00:12:06.559My true crime, you know, instincts came in.
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00:12:19.519Um but I think you know, I I I similar to Al have I've only ever been to Oregon Shakespeare uh festival, which Ashland is a totally different place, like in every way imaginable in Portland.
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00:12:28.159Um so but I've I knew that it was it was known for um just its beauty, right?
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00:12:36.960Um and um but what I was pleasantly surprised with is number one, the city's very old.
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00:12:40.720Um like the buildings are really old.
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00:12:44.480Um and I don't mean that like um in a shoddy way.
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00:12:47.519I mean that like it's a historic town.
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00:12:50.080Um and I think Al, you said this.
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00:12:51.759It's a it's what did you say?
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00:12:54.720It's a small town, big city kind of thing.
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00:12:55.919Yeah, yeah.
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00:12:59.120It's like a it's like a big town but a small city.
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00:13:00.879Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:13:19.279Um and so it's similar to like um if you go down, if you're in Baltimore, for instance, or even Philadelphia, like downtown, and they have those historic parts of the city where they have small streets, like narrow streets.
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00:13:19.759Yeah.
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00:13:23.679Um, you know, and downtown is there's a lot of retail.
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00:13:26.720It's definitely coming back from the pandemic.
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00:13:32.799Um, but yeah, I went to Portland not knowing anything, and besides what I mentioned.
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00:13:39.679Never thought in our firm's history that we would be like, yeah, let's go out to Portland, Oregon, like and do something.
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00:13:47.440You know, like it just wasn't in my mind's eye that this was a place or this was an institution and a city we would intersect with.
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00:13:47.840Yeah.
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00:14:00.960Now I do have to say, me personally, I got when I the first time I went to uh to Oregon was to OSF in Ashland, uh, and that was like 10 years ago.
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00:14:14.639And I got talking to like a like a lecturer before I left uh to go there because you land in Mefford, Oregon, which is the birthplace of the neo-Nazi movement, and that's 30 minutes away from Ashland.
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00:14:25.279So I had a very different like I was like just fear when I first got to Oregon 10 years ago, and going back now, I was like, oh, this is nice.
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00:14:32.240It's like you know, it's like a warm, like, you know, cup of tea or something, it's very cozy.
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00:14:34.480I really enjoyed myself.
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00:14:36.399Yeah, yeah.
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00:14:41.919Um, and so okay, so you have all these expectations um that we've just talked about.
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00:14:47.039You land in Portn Portland, you start to visit both the building and the city.
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00:14:49.360I saw photos of y'all on a hike.
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00:14:51.440Um, you start talking to people.
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00:14:52.879What was the vibe?
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00:15:03.120I Tiff got a little bit into it in terms of that sort of cozy, but um, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about the vibe of Portland and then also within the theater.
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00:15:12.320Um, yeah, so you know, the saying is keep Portland weird.
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00:15:17.360Um, and it's definitely that, but it's not as weird as New Orleans or New York City.
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00:15:20.000Um, you know, weird people are everywhere.
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00:15:25.279Um, so um and it is a very liberal city.
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00:15:32.000Um, I I think they said that only like 16% voted for Trump or something like that.
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00:15:40.799So it's a very liberal city um that is surrounded by some of the most breathtaking um nature in the country.
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00:15:48.879You can go to our Instagram and see photos of this hike that um that Al and I took through the park to their rose garden.
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00:15:50.159It's a test garden.
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00:15:54.159Um and um, you know, so it was really beautiful.
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00:16:08.240The armory, which is the the building that Portland Center Stage is housed in, is a historic building that uh was renovated about 20 years ago for the specific purpose of it being the new home of Portland Center Stage.
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00:16:16.240Um and um it is you would think because it's like like polished concrete floors and it's all brick.
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00:16:19.279So you would think it would feel cold, but it's not.
00:16:19.279 -->
00:16:25.679Um, it is very eclectic, but then has a very warm, sort of like communal feeling to it.
00:16:25.679 -->
00:16:39.360Um and um when you go to the staff offices, um the staff, it the physical way that the staff is placed reflects how the staff interacts with each other.
00:16:39.360 -->
00:16:41.440They're very close staff.
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00:16:54.399Um, and so even though like they have you know shared workspaces, some people have private offices, obviously, but they're very like they're close together so that they can um work together very easily as well.
00:16:54.399 -->
00:16:55.840Like everyone's there.
00:16:55.840 -->
00:17:02.159Um, so yeah, that was my impression of just um Portland Center Stage itself.
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00:17:02.960What about you, Al?
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00:17:10.480Yeah, yeah, I think that vibe piece is really right around, you know, I always think about the phrase like form is content.
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00:17:22.160And I think the form in which that building is and where that building is in Portland, um, you know, it's right next door to Powell's bookstore, which is one of the largest independent bookstores in the country.
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00:17:33.759Um, you know, it's in the center of the action, you know, it's by a district called the Pearl District, um, you know, that has like these wonderful shops and restaurants, you know, that are around.
00:17:33.759 -->
00:17:45.519And so, you know, people kind of the other thing we heard too was like people walk by the building because it's such an icon in Portland, and they're kind of like, ah, you know, what what you know, what's this?
00:17:45.519 -->
00:17:48.319I know this building, and they're like, Oh, you know, what goes on here?
00:17:48.319 -->
00:17:50.799And they're like, Oh, we're Portland Center Stage, like we do theater here.
00:17:50.799 -->
00:18:08.880And they're like, Ah, okay, like I I might not always know Portland Center Stage, but I know that building, you know, and it feels like it's one of those things of like trying to make sure to connect for people that the building and Portland Center stage are one and the same, even though most people will usually recognize the building first.
00:18:08.880 -->
00:18:39.839Um, and I think the vibe overall, you know, in the organization is um it was almost like one one of expectation, you know, they had really been waiting to start a search for a managing director, um, you know, and so it's also this kind of bubbling sense of like they have been holding a lot as an organization, you know, since the COVID, you know, since COVID, since recovery, you know, and coming into this moment and into this season.
00:18:39.839 -->
00:18:59.200Um, you know, but there was also a kind of electricity, you know, they were in previews for a show, you know, folks were working on stage, they were teching, you know, they were um, you know, getting uh the lobby ready and getting ready for, you know, that production of primary trust uh that was on running when we were there.
00:18:59.200 -->
00:19:29.839You know, they also had an outside theater company that was rehearsing in their space, uh, you know, when we got there, um, that I think speaks to this idea for them, for the organization, that they think about this partnership and interconnectedness in Portland, um, you know, among the nonprofits and among the arts organizations as well that they sit in the center of, you know, and at the same time, for all of those, you know, kind of good vibes, there's also the vibes of um, you know, what what's gonna happen here?
00:19:29.839 -->
00:20:09.279You know, there's also a nervousness here of, you know, okay, we're we're we're trying to explore this, and you know, we we face some good times and we face some bum times, you know, it's not unlike any theater in the country right now, you know, but it's just recognizing usually when we walk in that there's kind of these two things that are rubbing together, an excitement of, hey, we're we're gonna really dig in and dive into you know what it means to hire a new leader, you know, but also very much a kind of caution of, well, what are we gonna discover not only about who we need, but also what are we gonna discover about ourselves in the process?
00:20:09.279 -->
00:20:11.440You know, what are these folks going to learn?
00:20:11.440 -->
00:20:28.079What are they gonna see and tell us um around the viability of you know, this project that we're trying to pursue, um, and also taking a lot of what we hear and turning that word, all of the listening, all of the hearing into flesh?
00:20:28.079 -->
00:20:44.319But I think the overall vibe was a sense of hey, we've we've really got some gumption here, we've worked through a lot of things, we've made it through a lot of things together as a staff and have centered equity and inclusion in that work that we have done.
00:20:44.319 -->
00:20:47.119And what does the next chapter look like?
00:20:48.319 -->
00:20:48.960Yeah, yeah.
00:20:48.960 -->
00:20:59.039I was reading recently um about how in the brain the areas that control excitement and nervousness are essentially like overlapping.
00:20:59.039 -->
00:21:08.400And so it um strikes me that what you're talking about, that anticipation and the nervousness is all one in the same, right?
00:21:08.400 -->
00:21:20.720The excitement of what comes next with the nervousness of what comes next, right, is really, really uh, I think something we see across the board as we start to dig into these search processes.
00:21:20.720 -->
00:21:34.960Uh and one of the things that I think we are particularly good at, and I'm really proud of, is that we uh while we have these initial impressions, we're never afraid to change our minds and be told and shown that we're wrong, right?
00:21:34.960 -->
00:21:45.519And so I so then given what we've talked about in terms of your initial sort of takeaways and then what you learned on the ground, what was the thing that surprised you the most?
00:21:45.519 -->
00:21:56.000What maybe um what maybe did uh change for you in terms of your understanding of Portland or or Portland Center Stage specifically?
00:21:56.000 -->
00:21:57.920What was most surprising?
00:22:00.160 -->
00:22:07.759I mean, I'll I'll start off by by saying, Um, and I I think you both have heard me at least ask this internally.
00:22:07.759 -->
00:22:17.759Um, I've really wondered how the managing director role has changed over the last couple of years, um, especially in relationship to working with a partner.
00:22:18.000 -->
00:22:19.839You know, sorry to interrupt you.
00:22:19.839 -->
00:22:25.039Do you mean at Portland center stage or do you mean as a like broader question?
00:22:25.279 -->
00:22:28.319That great question or great, great, great clarification piece.
00:22:28.319 -->
00:22:32.799I I mean it broadly, but I also was questioning it here.
00:22:32.799 -->
00:22:46.960Um, and the reason I was was that um I the artistic director Marissa Wolf had really been over the last year working in sort of a solo head model, you know, that it was just her.
00:22:46.960 -->
00:22:52.319And she made it very clear, um, you know, that she wanted a partner.
00:22:52.319 -->
00:23:00.319Um, she made it very clear that she was like, I want a partner in this and a managerial partner to work with me.
00:23:00.319 -->
00:23:27.359And the question I had there was really wondering well, does that managing partner need to be someone who produces, who is a really adept producer at making the work happen and appear on stage in a way that uh that often an artistic director sometimes can't because they aren't there in the in and present in the way that a managing leader might be able to be.
00:23:27.359 -->
00:23:52.240And I think this is in contrast to what I conceived of when you know I was in school, and I think probably all three of us were in school in some ways, you know, which is oh, as the managing director, I'm in charge of the operational and strategy pieces of a theater endeavor, you know, to move the organization forward from everything that is basically not artistic.
00:23:52.240 -->
00:23:59.920Um, and I think you've had some of that overlap, you know, start to come together over the last 10 years that even we've been working.
00:23:59.920 -->
00:24:13.279Um, and so I was surprised at the want of a partner in some ways, and a partner that could really focus in on giving organizational and managerial structure to them.
00:24:13.279 -->
00:24:40.880Um, and I think the thing that I realized um that I don't think is really chronicled a lot around nonprofit leadership and management is that you know, there were times in the organization's history where there was a dual leadership model, there was then a solo leader that was usually a kind of an executive artistic director, then at times there was another dual, then at times there was a solo, you know, like there was just this sort of mixing of the two.
00:24:40.880 -->
00:24:59.039Um, and so I guess I came in sort of thinking, well, maybe they are looking for a different kind of manager or a different kind of managing director, um, you know, to really run not just the operational pieces, but really the artistic producing aspect of the org.
00:24:59.039 -->
00:25:16.000And I think what I felt I discovered were more people who said, no, we want a partner, we want someone who is really solid, really good at creating strategic structures and operational structures for us to be able to work in.
00:25:17.200 -->
00:25:18.079Tip, how about you?
00:25:18.160 -->
00:25:20.240What what was there anything surprising for you?
00:25:20.240 -->
00:25:22.720Did did anything change for you in that visit?
00:25:22.960 -->
00:25:35.359Um, I think um one thing that we learned was that um PCS is an oasis for the theater artists of Portland.
00:25:35.359 -->
00:25:42.079And I say that because they really truly live their values, it's not just you know, talk.
00:25:42.240 -->
00:25:42.720Yes.
00:25:42.960 -->
00:25:48.400Um so it's a very diverse staff in every way imaginable.
00:25:48.400 -->
00:25:59.839Um, and because of that, everyone shows up to work authentically themselves, unapologetically.
00:25:59.839 -->
00:26:11.119And so it's very rare that you can find and well back up, that also brings a lot of trust, like they trust each other a lot because they are authentically themselves.
00:26:11.119 -->
00:26:14.480Um, and so that was really surprising.
00:26:14.480 -->
00:26:22.640I've never been in a theater organization or arts organization that was like that, like I've never seen that.
00:26:22.640 -->
00:26:24.720So I was really surprised by that.
00:26:24.720 -->
00:26:28.559But also, like I told you, my only reference was Ashlyn.
00:26:28.559 -->
00:26:33.440So I thought it was going to be like a white organization, but it's not actually.
00:26:33.440 -->
00:26:50.079Um, you know, um, and um yeah, I think I think definitely the way that not just leadership, but every single person who works there lives the values of the organization through everyone.
00:26:51.279 -->
00:26:53.920Can I add a can I add just a little bit to that?
00:26:53.920 -->
00:27:05.920Just to really emphasize of like what what it what was lovely to discover is that it feels like in Portland people just kind of live diversity, it is just kind of there.
00:27:05.920 -->
00:27:38.160Like I think we're where we when when Portland sort of talked about like oh, we sort of felt like a vibe a values alignment with you all, is that it it feels like it just is, and it just is out there, it isn't um, it doesn't feel for lack of a better word, preachy, it doesn't feel punitive, you know, it isn't about like putting people down, it is really about saying we're gonna uplift this inclusiveness in all of its forms, you know.
00:27:38.160 -->
00:27:49.279And and I think when Tiff really talks about that living, I I think we saw in the staff, in the board, in the artists, in the front of house, in the programming.
00:27:49.279 -->
00:28:02.400We we visited um a program that they are part of called First Thursdays, where they had a mariachi band um that was in the lobby playing as people were walking down, you know, to the shops for first Thursday.
00:28:02.400 -->
00:28:26.000Um, and I was like, what an incredible way to just show that yes, we're gonna have a mariachi band in the middle of Portland as you're going to this event, and it just is, you know, not that they don't have to think deeply about it or be intentional about it, but it it feels like what what I often find with us of you know, this is just who we are and this is what we do.
00:28:26.000 -->
00:28:36.319Um, you know, and we we are not here, you know, always to evangelize, but just to actually live what we're talking about and what we want to see happen.
00:28:36.640 -->
00:28:37.200Yeah, yeah.
00:28:37.200 -->
00:29:03.200And what I what I think is so um quite special from what I'm hearing from the two of you, not having gone to this site visit, is that often when when some when an organization is the largest arts organization in X city, there can sometimes that can sometimes breed mistrust between the artistic community and that institution, purely in some ways by virtue of the moment we're in, right?
00:29:03.200 -->
00:29:12.079There's a mistrust of institution at large, and then some institutions having sort of fallen out of relationship with the artist in their community.
00:29:12.079 -->
00:29:24.079And what I think is so magical about what you're describing is that that doesn't seem to be present in in at Portland Center stage, is that they have really made themselves the sort of artistic hub for the artists of Portland.
00:29:24.079 -->
00:29:30.880So just in what you're saying, I think that that's really important as people are thinking about what opportunities might be right for them.
00:29:30.880 -->
00:29:33.599I think that that's really special about Portland.
00:29:33.599 -->
00:29:37.440Um, and so I felt like we we should really highlight that.
00:29:37.440 -->
00:29:41.200But this now we get to one of my favorite parts of our process, right?
00:29:41.200 -->
00:29:48.319Where we've like listened to all these people, we we hear so many opinions, some of them contradictory, right?
00:29:48.319 -->
00:29:51.759Not everybody agrees within any one organization.
00:29:51.759 -->
00:29:55.920And so can you talk a little bit about that translation process?
00:29:55.920 -->
00:29:59.519What makes it how do you make it into the job description?
00:29:59.519 -->
00:30:03.039What Makes it into the job description and what are you looking for?
00:30:03.039 -->
00:30:10.559I'm curious if you could talk specifically about the moments where there's perhaps tension in what you've heard from different stakeholders.
00:30:10.559 -->
00:30:13.759How do you sort of do that translation process?
00:30:16.079 -->
00:30:20.559I mean, I uh there's a couple of things that come to mind for me.
00:30:20.559 -->
00:30:46.319Uh one is that whenever I'm on a site visit, especially talking to many different people, you know, yes, it's trying to hear narrative, but I also really try to hear, hear what is repeated, what is repetitious, what do I hear over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, whether that is directly or indirectly, you know, that usually tells me I've got to pay attention to that piece.
00:30:46.319 -->
00:30:50.319You know, I've gotta I've gotta put that in the back of my mind.
00:30:50.319 -->
00:31:07.839And I think the other thing that I practically try to do at the end of uh or that Tiff and I do it at the end of every stakeholder interview is to say, Hey, if there's something that if you could be on my shoulder and just whisper in my ear something that I need to keep in mind, you know, what is that thing?
00:31:07.839 -->
00:31:21.680Um, and so I I'll point out two things that I maybe were heard that were repetitious, and also like what's that little person on my ear saying or in my ear saying the repetitious piece is that this person's got to raise some revenue, you know.
00:31:21.680 -->
00:31:25.359Uh this person has to raise some revenue.
00:31:25.359 -->
00:31:33.279And I don't I I feel like I'm I'm not talking out of school here because this is on their website, but also um in our job description.
00:31:33.279 -->
00:31:44.480You know, part of the current environment was that um, you know, Portland Center Stage needed to raise about two million dollars before the end of August 2025 um in order to keep open.
00:31:44.480 -->
00:32:02.960They did that, great, you know, uh, and I think that shows a level of interest and understanding from the community, you know, and from the city and from the state of how important this institution really is, you know, to the functioning of downtown Portland and the recovery of downtown Portland.
00:32:02.960 -->
00:32:10.559Um, but I think what that means is you really have to think about your revenue mix in a new way.
00:32:10.559 -->
00:32:18.240Um, you know, sometimes there there's sort of this 60-40, maybe 60 is earned, 40 is contributed.
00:32:18.240 -->
00:32:37.279Now in the post-pandemic world, that's really started to lopside a little bit more, where it's become a little more 60 contributed, 40 earned, you know, and so I think the thing we heard over and over again was you know, a real need for someone to come in around that revenue piece.
00:32:37.279 -->
00:32:44.960The second thing that I would say that I heard of like keep this in the back of your mind is what's Tiff pointed to around the staff culture.
00:32:44.960 -->
00:32:53.680You know, I think for this organization, but also for any organization, the staff culture is kind of like that that precious gem, you know.
00:32:53.680 -->
00:33:02.559Um, you know, it is that jewel that that you wanna, it's the heart of the ocean that you want to make sure you don't drop in the ocean, you know, even though Rose did at the end.
00:33:02.559 -->
00:33:03.599What's wrong with her?
00:33:03.599 -->
00:33:06.000Anyway, you know, totally ruined it.
00:33:06.000 -->
00:33:07.359You weren't supposed to drop it.
00:33:07.359 -->
00:33:10.079And I think that's what staffs have for us, right?
00:33:10.079 -->
00:33:23.920Of like, we don't want you to drop this gem of a culture that we have, um, and of the values that we live, especially when it comes comes to inclusion, diversity, equity, and access.
00:33:23.920 -->
00:33:37.920You know, but I I would say the things I kept hearing repeated hey, you know, being able to be out there, help generate excitement, generate revenue, figuring out, you know, where we go next is so important.
00:33:37.920 -->
00:33:51.119And then also really hearing, hey, this staff culture is really precious to make sure that we keep the trust, the transparency, the grid and hard work that they've had to do over the last few years.
00:33:51.119 -->
00:34:00.720Um, is something that they don't want someone to come in and just say, hey, I'm just gonna smash this and say forget it and leave you know everything in pieces.
00:34:02.559 -->
00:34:11.039Tiff, anything to add there in terms of like what you're thinking about as you translate humans to to text and job description?
00:34:11.360 -->
00:34:18.000Yeah, I think um really understanding, you know, what are the core competencies.
00:34:18.000 -->
00:34:31.760So we mentioned revenue generate generation, but like thinking about what are the core, let's say top five um skill sets or things that this person needs for this role.
00:34:31.760 -->
00:34:38.639Um, and also, you know, we even have a part of our job description that like describes you as a person a little bit.
00:34:38.639 -->
00:34:47.119Um, so it's even understanding like what's the personality of this person or the thing that makes them fit um into this role.
00:34:47.119 -->
00:34:54.000Um and sometimes the thing that makes you fit is not your where you got your degree from.
00:34:54.000 -->
00:34:58.079It's not even like how many years of experience you may have.
00:34:58.079 -->
00:35:08.400It's just it's it's for me, it's always intuition, um, which isn't always that secure uh data, right?
00:35:08.400 -->
00:35:18.480But but it's like just understanding like what is like the thing that they need in order to be a good fit for this and in order to help it thrive and grow.
00:35:18.480 -->
00:35:44.480And I think for this role in particular, you know, Al, you mentioned revenue generation, but I also think like innovation when it comes to that as well, innovative thinking, because we are seeing all across the United States, ever since um the pandemic, um, you know, audiences have not come back the way they did pre-pandemic, and neither have has the funding.
00:35:44.480 -->
00:35:54.880Um and so there needs to have someone just think differently about how do we approach this challenge that these organizations are facing all over the country.
00:35:54.880 -->
00:36:05.039Um, so I think I think when it comes to innovation for individual donors, um foundations, but also innovation when it comes to earned revenue as well.
00:36:05.039 -->
00:36:12.960Um and I think in order to do that, you really have to know yourself.
00:36:12.960 -->
00:36:16.960And I mean that like the organization really needs to know itself, and they do.
00:36:16.960 -->
00:36:24.559It's just that they don't, you know, they don't have a managing director, which means they don't have the capacity, you know, to do those things.
00:36:24.559 -->
00:36:35.760And so I think this person is uh this hire is really gonna help this organization fly and reach um its its full potential.
00:36:35.920 -->
00:36:55.440But I think definitely being an innovative thinker um is important, and I think also because Portland is weird, weird, it's weird, so you gotta you gotta think weird, you gotta think weird, and and it's where bringing in something like in a section about Portland, you know.
00:36:55.440 -->
00:37:02.880Sometimes it is, you know, people looking from afar being like, okay, wait, first you want me to go to Portland before I even just start thinking about the job.
00:37:02.880 -->
00:37:15.280Let me think about what this city is, you know, and so trying to put a little bit in there of like this is a little bit of the vibe, this is the demographics, this is the arts and cultural scene, you know.
00:37:15.280 -->
00:37:36.639And the other thing I would add too that I think is is key in terms of how I I view job profiles is that when we look at that roles and responsibilities piece, as much as the bullet points are important, it's really like what are the four big or five big areas that this person needs to be able to cover?
00:37:36.639 -->
00:37:40.719You know, what what are the five four or five big things?
00:37:40.719 -->
00:37:46.239And so for Portland Center Stage, it was around strategic leadership and administration.
00:37:46.239 -->
00:37:53.039You got to tell us where we're going and how we're gonna build the structure to get there, revenue generation and enhancement.
00:37:53.039 -->
00:38:02.400You know, you're gonna have to help charge a course of how we raise these dollars, you know, on an earned basis and a contributed revenue basis.
00:38:02.400 -->
00:38:08.320And I think to Tiff's point, thinking innovatively about other ways that that can come about too.
00:38:08.320 -->
00:38:17.039Staff management and culture building, again, keeping that gym, you know, and then this last piece around community engagement and external relations.
00:38:17.039 -->
00:38:21.599You know, part of this is, you know, Marissa Wolf, God, God loved her.
00:38:21.599 -->
00:38:29.440Uh, that you know, she has really been holding down this organization, you know, since she's been there.
00:38:29.440 -->
00:38:36.559You know, this is where that partnership piece comes in because she rarely directs outside of Portland Center Stage.
00:38:36.559 -->
00:38:49.119You know, she has been an artistic director that has been there in the trenches and with people and with an organization and with a community as it has really recovered from you know the pandemic.
00:38:49.119 -->
00:39:04.960And so, you know, thinking about this partnership and saying you're gonna go out in the community and be just as much of a representation of Portland Center Stage, who it is, and the kind of message you're putting out there as the artistic director, you know.
00:39:04.960 -->
00:39:14.480So I I I always try to think about it, and you all can push back at me about it around what are those four, you know, what what I tend to call charges?
00:39:14.480 -->
00:39:23.199You know, what are the four big buckets that you've really got to be able to either have some experience in or be prepared to be successful in?
00:39:24.079 -->
00:39:27.119And that is different for every single organization.
00:39:27.519 -->
00:39:29.039Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:29.039 -->
00:39:37.440And and and what's underpinning the ones that you've named for Portland, which I think is like it sneaks its way in there, is storytelling, right?
00:39:37.519 -->
00:39:40.480The thing that underpinning the same exact word, Leandro.
00:39:41.199 -->
00:39:47.199Every single part, every single area that you talked about, Al, is about how do you tell the story of this organization?
00:39:47.199 -->
00:39:50.000How do you tell it through the financial documents, right?
00:39:50.000 -->
00:39:54.320And the the budget is a moral document and it's a storytelling document.
00:39:54.320 -->
00:39:54.639Yes.
00:39:54.639 -->
00:39:57.360Um, how do you tell this story to funders?
00:39:57.360 -->
00:39:59.119How do you tell the story to audiences?
00:39:59.119 -->
00:40:00.960How do you tell the story internally?
00:40:00.960 -->
00:40:08.480And so it really is about, and how do you keep that story consistent in talking to all of those people?
00:40:08.480 -->
00:40:12.079Again, not to say that not to say that Portland is not doing that.
00:40:12.079 -->
00:40:15.440Marissa herself is an amazing storyteller, right?
00:40:15.440 -->
00:40:24.719But I think that what they're hoping for is somebody who can come in and partner with her and figure out, you know, the the history is so rich at Portland Center stage.
00:40:24.719 -->
00:40:28.559How do we make even more folks tune into that story?
00:40:28.559 -->
00:40:33.440And how do we tell a story that charts where we're going while acknowledging where we've been?
00:40:33.440 -->
00:40:42.960Um, and and I think that in this sort of like how we translate world, um, one of the things that we also that we do is also reflect that back, right?
00:40:42.960 -->
00:40:46.880We don't just like take in all this information and say we know all the right answers now.
00:40:46.880 -->
00:40:53.199We sort of give it back to the particularly the search committee and say, hey, here's what we've learned.
00:40:53.199 -->
00:40:54.880Are we on the right track?
00:40:54.880 -->
00:40:55.199Right?
00:40:55.199 -->
00:40:56.960Does this resonate?
00:40:56.960 -->
00:41:11.440And um, and and that's another gut check for us so that we're not allowing our own biases to shape how we're even seeing this organization, but allows us to take in information and then reflect that back and see are we hearing these things in the right way?
00:41:11.440 -->
00:41:21.679Um and and are we actually telling the narrative that that is true about the organization and leads to the kind of person who might be right for this job?
00:41:21.679 -->
00:41:24.719Um, Al, I'm gonna throw a curveball question in here.
00:41:24.719 -->
00:41:25.280Please.
00:41:25.280 -->
00:41:28.079We can cut it out later if we don't think that we want it.
00:41:28.079 -->
00:41:34.960But you mentioned earlier the week before uh you went that the you know the president was gonna send troops into Portland.
00:41:34.960 -->
00:41:39.360I'm curious, does that affect how you thought about the job description?
00:41:39.360 -->
00:41:42.639Um, does that affect future parts of the process?
00:41:42.639 -->
00:41:46.159Like, how does that affect how you think about our work here?
00:41:46.480 -->
00:41:47.119That's great.
00:41:47.119 -->
00:41:59.360Uh it reminds me that this is almost not dissimilar to what we felt around, you know, Woolly Mammoth for a little bit when we were visiting in DC, around a similar time of like the National Guard is coming in.
00:41:59.360 -->
00:42:04.639It was like, oh my God, why are we keep working at places where the president wants to send the National Guard in?
00:42:04.639 -->
00:42:15.039You know, and part of it is, I think, more later down the line for candidates because people look and say, Well, is it really a hellscape on the ground like they're talking about?
00:42:15.039 -->
00:42:16.960And we're like, no, it's not a hellscape.
00:42:16.960 -->
00:42:23.360You know, it's not just like buildings on fire and you know, people all over on the streets.
00:42:23.360 -->
00:42:27.679It is uh it is like any other downtown you would go to in America.
00:42:27.679 -->
00:42:30.159You know, are there gonna be some good spots?
00:42:30.159 -->
00:42:30.639Yes.
00:42:30.639 -->
00:42:32.480Are there gonna be some spots that need work?
00:42:32.480 -->
00:42:33.199100%.
00:42:33.199 -->
00:42:35.599You know, is there a houseless population there?
00:42:35.599 -->
00:42:46.159Yes, there is, you know, we're not trying to tell you that, you know, to be like, you know, let's pay everything gold, but to really say, hey, this is the reality out here.
00:42:46.159 -->
00:42:51.280You know, I'm not trying to sell you a bridge to nowhere, I'm trying to sell you a bridge to somewhere.
00:42:51.280 -->
00:43:05.280And so that somewhere is getting the context nationally, and so it's just trying to tell people on the ground, hey, kind of like Tiff mentioned, there's beautiful parks, there's great places to go outside, there's great places to eat.
00:43:05.280 -->
00:43:11.519They have a light rail line that is more extensive than I thought, you know, was there and existed.
00:43:11.519 -->
00:43:18.800It's little things like that to say, hey, when you get on the ground, actually, it's a different story than just what you hear in the narrative piece.
00:43:20.239 -->
00:43:21.440Yeah, yeah, awesome.
00:43:21.440 -->
00:43:22.559Thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:43:22.559 -->
00:43:23.199Yeah, you know.
00:43:23.199 -->
00:43:26.400Um, and we've talked about some of the like hard skills.
00:43:26.400 -->
00:43:36.000I'm wondering, are there any of those like human soft skills that you think might be are are non-negotiable in terms of uh the next leader at PCS?
00:43:36.000 -->
00:43:38.079Are there any of those soft skills you might be looking for?
00:43:38.079 -->
00:43:40.880Tiff, I'm gonna turn to you for this question.
00:43:41.679 -->
00:43:50.960Um uh I'm gonna pull a page out of Al's book because I believe that this is important for any leader to have in the arts is um grit.
00:43:50.960 -->
00:43:57.920Um, and that is something that you have to learn from life experience.
00:43:57.920 -->
00:44:05.119Um and I think that this this is, I'll be honest, it's not an easy job.
00:44:05.119 -->
00:44:07.599It's not an easy job being managing a director anywhere.
00:44:07.599 -->
00:44:13.199Um, but you know, this is it's a hard job.
00:44:13.199 -->
00:44:28.480You need to be able to roll your sleeves up and you know, as Al mentioned before, go in um the trenches with your staff and you know, not be too good for that.
00:44:28.480 -->
00:44:31.199You know, I've met leaders who are like that.
00:44:31.199 -->
00:44:49.199I think that being able to be humble is going to be very important, but also being able to know yourself inside and out, um, and have confidence um is going to be very important for this role.
00:44:49.199 -->
00:44:56.880So I think yes, grit, confidence, um, authenticity, um, and humbleness.
00:44:58.480 -->
00:45:00.079Al, anything to add there?
00:45:00.639 -->
00:45:11.760I I think it's uh, you know, the other piece I would really say is a passion and a belief in this art and in this model and in this work that is done.
00:45:11.760 -->
00:45:16.800You know, we saw Primary Trust by Chip Miller out there, directed by Chip Miller out there.
00:45:16.800 -->
00:45:21.039Um, and it was just a wonderful, touching, beautiful story.
00:45:21.039 -->
00:45:37.440Um, and being able to see that in the middle of a downtown and see the story about how a community comes together to really support one particular person that is in a particular moment in time, you know, is the exact kind of analogy that is here.
00:45:37.440 -->
00:45:46.800Come and uplift this place, come and give community to this place, come and believe in this place and in this thing.
00:45:46.800 -->
00:45:52.320You know, David might have only had a slingshot, but he took down a giant, you know.
00:45:52.320 -->
00:45:55.920Moses might have only had a staff, but he parted the sea.
00:45:55.920 -->
00:46:03.679You gotta rouse people a little bit, you gotta make people believe in it again, and that's the piece you gotta be able to bring.
00:46:03.679 -->
00:46:18.559It's like, come on, you got to lift some people up and some souls up up in here, and I think that's something that you can't always put in a job description, but you're gonna need that passion, you're gonna need that grit if you're gonna succeed here.
00:46:18.800 -->
00:46:22.079Oh, I know I've asked the right question when I get preacher Al to answer the question.
00:46:26.159 -->
00:46:33.679You got it, you did, you did, and I do have I have to say, Al can he can vouch for this.
00:46:33.679 -->
00:46:36.559I could not stop sobbing after primary trust.
00:46:37.760 -->
00:46:38.559It was beautiful.
00:46:38.880 -->
00:46:41.360It was so I literally couldn't control it.
00:46:41.840 -->
00:46:42.480Beautiful.
00:46:42.880 -->
00:46:56.719And so so after hearing that incredible rousing description from Al, um, if people are if people are thinking, you know, that's me, or I know somebody who's perfect for this, what should they know about the process from here?
00:46:56.719 -->
00:47:01.199What can you give a sense of timeline and what's the best way for them to learn more?
00:47:01.519 -->
00:47:11.119Uh so best way to learn more is to go to our website, um, or you can go directly to um emcforward.com um slash apply.
00:47:11.119 -->
00:47:14.079Um, and that's where you'll find our application.
00:47:14.079 -->
00:47:20.719Um, you will be asked um for just like your contact information, but also a resume and a cover letter.
00:47:20.719 -->
00:47:23.440Please remember to put in your cover letter.
00:47:23.440 -->
00:47:24.960I would appreciate that.
00:47:24.960 -->
00:47:28.320Um applications are due mid-November, so November 14th.
00:47:28.320 -->
00:47:29.920That's our best consideration.
00:47:29.920 -->
00:47:34.480Um, you could still um apply after that.
00:47:34.480 -->
00:47:42.559I wouldn't say keep applying in January, but um, but if you can't get it in by then, you know, you can just talk to us.
00:47:42.559 -->
00:47:53.199Um, and we are um hoping to select finalists um by the end of the year with um doing site visits at the top of the year.
00:47:53.199 -->
00:47:56.960Um, but you know, just reach out to us.
00:47:56.960 -->
00:48:04.480Um and uh we will have a link uh for the job description and application in our notes.
00:48:04.480 -->
00:48:14.639Um and as well as um if you go to our Instagram page, um Evolution Magic Consultants, you'll find the information in our bio as well.
00:48:15.199 -->
00:48:16.400Awesome, awesome.
00:48:16.400 -->
00:48:20.079And um, so get your applications in early.
00:48:20.079 -->
00:48:23.360It always helps us um stay on track.
00:48:23.360 -->
00:48:28.079And uh because I have been through enough of these, I always have to put out the caveat.
00:48:28.079 -->
00:48:30.719Everything Tiff mentioned is the current plan.
00:48:30.719 -->
00:48:33.679Things change all the time, timelines shift.
00:48:33.679 -->
00:48:37.920Um, and we do our best to keep you up to date if those times lines shift.
00:48:37.920 -->
00:48:40.400But um that is what we currently know.
00:48:40.400 -->
00:48:56.320Uh and before we uh wrap with our final question, I just want to give a shout out to Portland Center Stage for hosting us, for allowing us to come and uh see Underneath the Hood, and then for letting us talk about it um on this podcast.
00:48:56.320 -->
00:49:02.800And so thank you for being an awesome, awesome, awesome partner and for being such great hosts to Al and Tiffany.
00:49:02.800 -->
00:49:06.559I've been hearing so much about how amazing the site visit was.
00:49:06.559 -->
00:49:10.320So I just want to say thank you to all of the folks over there.
00:49:10.320 -->
00:49:13.599Um, and with that, let's get into our how we end all of our episodes.
00:49:13.599 -->
00:49:14.400What are you listening to?
00:49:14.400 -->
00:49:15.360What are you watching?
00:49:15.360 -->
00:49:16.960What are you reading?
00:49:18.719 -->
00:49:20.159Tiff, you want to go?
00:49:21.599 -->
00:49:28.400There's a satire comedy show on HBO called The Chair Company.
00:49:28.400 -->
00:49:29.599I don't know if you've seen this.
00:49:29.599 -->
00:49:35.920It is absolutely ridiculous.
00:49:35.920 -->
00:49:39.280Um, and it's it's like trying so hard to be serious.
00:49:39.280 -->
00:49:41.119That's why it's like you know, satire.
00:49:41.119 -->
00:49:57.840Um, and I I can't really describe it uh besides watching um a white man in corporate just fighting for his life because of his ego.
00:49:59.440 -->
00:50:01.039So it's like off his desk.
00:50:01.039 -->
00:50:03.679That that that sounds like the office, kind of.
00:50:04.320 -->
00:50:08.719Yes, yeah, it's like it's ridiculous, like you know, anyways.
00:50:08.719 -->
00:50:12.559So um, yeah, uh, I I highly recommend that.
00:50:12.559 -->
00:50:17.599If it it's it's not gonna be everybody's cup of tea, but I think it's pretty funny.
00:50:17.840 -->
00:50:18.400Amazing.
00:50:18.639 -->
00:50:19.679Al, how about you?
00:50:19.920 -->
00:50:24.239Gosh, I I was gonna go into HBO Max World for mine, but I won't.
00:50:24.239 -->
00:50:26.400Uh so I was like, I'm gonna go to a different spot.
00:50:26.400 -->
00:50:35.599They don't sponsor us yet, but if they won't do Exactly Listen, David Sashloff, as you're thinking about this sale, just include us two in that sale pair.
00:50:35.599 -->
00:50:37.039Happy to do it.
00:50:37.039 -->
00:50:49.599Um, the thing, the the thing I'm uh gonna start on an audio book is a book called 1929, uh Inside the Greatest Clash in Wall Street history and how it shattered a nation, uh by Andrew Ross Sorkin.
00:50:49.599 -->
00:50:56.719Uh it seems like it's literally kind of a tailing of how did this thing happen that was like such a great clash crash.
00:50:56.719 -->
00:50:59.039Um, and so I'm excited to dig in.
00:50:59.039 -->
00:51:04.000I read an excerpt in The Atlantic, uh, and so it made me say, I think I want to go listen to that.
00:51:04.000 -->
00:51:06.559So I'm gonna start listening to that soon.
00:51:06.880 -->
00:51:07.679Amazing.
00:51:07.679 -->
00:51:08.320Thanks.
00:51:08.320 -->
00:51:13.679Uh, and for me, it's spooky season, so I have been watching nothing but horror films.
00:51:13.679 -->
00:51:22.079Um, my husband Trent and I are making our way through both the Elm Street series and the Halloween series.
00:51:22.079 -->
00:51:31.039Um and like I've learned that Halloween actually has like three multiverses depending on what lore you believe.
00:51:31.039 -->
00:51:35.360I thought it was all just like one continuous story, but it's not what Halloween is.
00:51:35.360 -->
00:51:43.840Um, and so I've been watching a lot of that, which ironically, we again not sponsored by HBO, but I had gone months without going on the HBO app.
00:51:43.840 -->
00:51:50.079And now I'm there every day because they got all the spooky movies, they have an amazing spooky season collection.
00:51:50.079 -->
00:51:53.920So like shout out to HBO for knowing what I want in October.
00:51:53.920 -->
00:51:58.320Um with that, folks, thank you so much for listening to us.
00:51:58.320 -->
00:52:10.239It is always a pleasure uh talking to Al and Tiffany, both of you, um, and and just exploring what's going on in our field and uh uh unveiling a little bit more about what we do.
00:52:10.239 -->
00:52:13.039So thank you both for this conversation.
00:52:13.039 -->
00:52:19.280And uh if you want to get in touch with us, if you have any questions, you can always email us at emc at emcforward.com.
00:52:19.280 -->
00:52:20.800We'll be in the show notes.
00:52:20.800 -->
00:52:23.199Um, and have a great day, y'all.
00:52:23.199 -->
00:52:23.679Bye.
