Efficient, Ethical Enforcement in Action: How the Naylor Sisters Are Redefining Industry Standards

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Hi and welcome back to the Money Advice Liaison Group podcast,
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working together to improve the lives of people in debt.
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I'm Helen Gill, founding director of marketing communications consultancy Engage Comms
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and hosts of the Malg podcast.
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If you work in any capacity across the debt landscape in the UK,
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listen in during your lunch break, on your commute or whenever you have some
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downtime for inspiring insights into how collaboration and working smarter can
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overcome the barriers to a fairer, better system for those in financial difficulty.
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For this episode, Malg CEO Bob Winnington and I have come to the London office
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of Dukes Bailiffs, one of the UK's most progressive enforcement firms.
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For the first time, we're sitting down with not one guest, but three -
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sisters Laura Naylor, Sarah Naylor and Zoe Naylor - to explore how a family-run
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business has evolved into a sector leader known for innovation,
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ethical practice and a people-centred approach.
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Laura is Marketing Director of Dukes. She's been with the firm for over 10 years
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and moved to her current role five years ago.
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She's led the business through a period of significant modernisation,
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championing ethical enforcement,
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digital transformation and a culture built on accountability and care. Sarah's the sales director,
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driving modern enforcement strategies at Dukes to maximise revenue for local
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authorities through innovation and customer-centric solutions. She's also the
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president of the Civil Enforcement Association (CIVEA) and chair of Women in
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Revenues & Enforcement,
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Zoe, HR and operations director, leads on the people-centred approach,
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synonymous with the Dukes' culture. After completing a psychology degree,
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she gained valuable HR experience elsewhere before joining her parents' company
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alongside her younger sisters six and a half years ago. As long-standing MALG
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members, the Dukes trio share how collaboration,
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vulnerability-aware practice and a commitment to continuous improvement have
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shaped their journey This conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look
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at leadership, culture and transformation in a sector that is still very much
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misunderstood So let's get started.
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Well, this is a very, very special podcast that we're going to kickstart today.
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All the podcasts we've done so far in the Malg range have been one-to-one.
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Today, I have the pleasure of three guests on the podcast.
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So we've got Laura, Sarah, and Zoe Naylor from Dukes Bailiffs,
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and absolutely delighted to see the three of you here today.
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And I want to try and explore and find out and tease a little bit of information
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about you individually and also about Dukes as well and the fine work that you do.
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So I think we'll kick start with a question for all of you which is firstly
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how did you find your way into the industry and when did you realise that you
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were in a position to shape how the industry and your organisation was going
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to evolve rather than simply just work in it. So Laura let's start with you.
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Yeah it's a good question. So obviously the business was started and founded
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by our parents, Colin and Elaine Naylor.
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So for me personally, kind of as far back as I can remember,
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it's always been a goal of mine to join the family business.
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You know, growing up, we vaguely knew what they did. And it was only really
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at secondary school, I think that we realised, or I certainly realised that
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it wasn't necessarily the norm for your parents to work together,
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or it wasn't the norm for your parents to necessarily run their own business.
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So I think that's what inspired me to want to join, join them.
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And then that inspiration, I guess, kind of shaped my career choices at kind
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of secondary school that, you know, coming out of university,
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I could come straight into a career at Dukes.
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It was kind of a little bit of a funny story, really.
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Like I say, it was definitely the goal and aspiration I had.
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So during my university degree, on the third year, you had to do a year in placement.
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And I approached mum and dad and said, we can do a year in placement.
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I'd love to work at Dukes. And mum's first reaction and initial reaction, no.
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She was like, no, you should go somewhere else, get some experience somewhere
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else. And I was gutted, but I did. I went to Toyota.
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I moved to Surrey and I had a year in placement there. I actually did HR,
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but I loved it. It was great.
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I learned some really key, valuable things there. And then, yeah,
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two years on, finished, graduated university and I joined the family business. That's how I got into it.
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Sarah's story is a little bit different. Yeah so i didn't
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naturally know that I wanted to go into the family
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business it kind of fell into it as my understanding
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of most people in the enforcement sector fall into the enforcement sector
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it was never really quite planned but so I did a Law
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Degree at university completed that and then
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Laura and I did some interrailing a few weeks of interrailing afterwards
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which brought us back to our graduation ceremony
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which I think was a Monday and the
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Tuesday after so the day after graduation mum says right
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you can because i didn't have a job at that time i didn't know if i
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wanted to go into into law or something different so
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mum said well you can work for us you know you're living at home you need to
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play board so you can work for us and earn some money in the
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meantime and so we have just kind of stayed there since
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we've gone into different roles and yeah really found
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my way. Yeah yeah excellent and Zoe how
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about you mine out of all three of us was probably
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more of a conscious choice a conscious choice to join at
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the time not to join the business I suppose I moved
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to London after I'd done my psychology degree moved for
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circumstances with my then partner and straight
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out of psychology kind of naturally fell into HR again not
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really the plan didn't think I would ever end up in HR but here we
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are and I worked for a global company and was working my way up doing well, five
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and a half years later it sort of fell in line with we were thinking about getting
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a London office so I was thinking right okay well there might be some scope
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for me to return at some point knowing that I'm probably not going to move back
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to Stone anytime soon so the business was growing well it
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also then kind of opened up that we needed
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to build out more of a standalone HR function and
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that's where I then thought well there's probably an opportunity for me
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to move away from what I've been doing and join Dukes. Did
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that thought I'll bring it
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up with mum and dad they took me out for dinner hoodwinked me
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into a Chinese meal and then interviewed me which I
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didn't think I was going to get I'm under no illusion Laura and Sarah did not
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get an interview but I did but
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thankfully the Chinese was nice I got the job so so
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yeah that's how I kind of fell into it it was conscious to join more so at that
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point but it was never really part of the plan I didn't think I would be doing
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HR at Dukes but well here we are and it's worked well hasn't it no you
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you wouldn't look back now obviously I I know your parents have now taken a backseat, so to speak,
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and let you loose running the business,
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which I'm sure was a very conscious and a very sound decision on their part.
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But I'm interested to know in terms of the values
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that you grew up with that they will have installed a number of those values
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within you how has that influenced how you now are running Dukes and and how
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you approach enforcement,
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so Laura we'll go back to you yeah thanks so i
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guess there's a there's a lot of values that obviously we kind of got instilled
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in us or learned kind of growing up thanks to mom and dad but i guess the key
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ones for me personally that kind of i bring to my to my work and to Dukes and
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to enforcement is relationships and connections, like building meaningful connections,
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honesty, and also continuous improvement.
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So I'll kind of go into those three a little bit more and kind of what I mean.
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So in terms of the relationships, for me, growing up, we've always been taught
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to build meaningful relationships with people and to treat everybody as equal.
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Everybody's heard that saying, treat people as you'd like to be treated.
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And that is something I live by. And I think it's important
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specifically in customer service but also in a leadership role
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so you know i take the time to speak to anybody within the
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business or here in our London office whether that be
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the cleaner I'll have a chat with them a weekend build rapport
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with them and the same with the CEO to me
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it doesn't matter what their job is i treat everybody with that
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same yeah yeah i think that
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i just think that's really important in terms of the value of
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honesty I'm kind of a person that I
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guess I wear my heart on the sleeve I say say
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things as they are I can't really I don't really have a great poker face which
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is good and bad i don't really play poker so it's okay but yeah being raised
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in a close-knit family we've always been taught to and provided a safe space
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safe space to provide open and candid feedback with one another and listen to that feedback,
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that's helped the three of us grow immensely quite quickly over the last kind
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of yeah well not all of our lives really, but certainly over the last 10 years
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with Sarah and I that we've been at Dukes and the last kind of five,
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six since Zoe's been with us.
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So that kind of honesty and kind of providing that feedback,
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it shapes the way we lead the business and it shapes the way we engage with our teams.
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We replicate that safe space for them and provide that kind of honest environment
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to help our teams develop and continue to create opportunities for them.
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Additionally, as a leader, again, that honesty piece, I think it's really important
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to be honest and open and vulnerable as a leader.
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So, you know, sharing that we're all human, you know, it doesn't matter what
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the job title is, we're all the same. we've got things going on or whatnot,
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not saying that you need to delve into that. I think there's a time and a place.
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However, but it's just showing that, you know, we're aiming to be aiming for
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perfection, but we're not all perfect and that's fine, but you can still progress.
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You can still develop. Yeah. You don't need to let things hold you back.
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So for me, that's, that's another value that, um, definitely shapes the way. No, it's good. we are Dukes
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And then the final one continuous improvement, me, me and Sarah and Zoe laugh
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about this because, you know, we learned early kind of the value of hard work
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and taking pride in what we've got.
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And I say that in a sense of we remember our childhood at secondary school that
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we didn't really have a lot of time to spend with our friends,
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which probably wasn't all correct. It's probably just a specific memory that we hold on to.
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But what I mean by that is kind of weekends, every weekend it seemed to have
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spent tidying the house, cleaning or reorganising the kitchen.
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Helping in the garden, making something better.
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Mom and dad just never seemed to stop. They were always doing something,
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trying to make things better and improve and enhance what they had.
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At times, this felt restrictive, obviously, because we felt that we didn't have
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time to go out with our friends or our boyfriends at the time, whatever it was.
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But that's definitely embedded a powerful mindset for all of us.
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So, you know, we look at things, look at processes or, you know,
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different things with enforcement, the way that we're approaching enforcement,
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and we look to enhance that and change it and improve it.
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So that's definitely a mindset that we have and that we instil and share with
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the rest of the team at Dukes.
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So we make sure that everybody, no matter what role they are,
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they feel that they can you know share some insight that they may have in terms of how
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they think we can continuously improve or make something better.
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Yeah, I could really sense that was very powerful. and
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what doesn't come across on the audio is that I'm looking at
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Zoe and Sarah and you know you were
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absolutely with Laura on that
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we could totally yeah yeah i could see that it was a
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pain point it was about you know feeling like we didn't have much of a weekend
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but i mean i wouldn't change it i'm wouldn't change it absolutely no good luck
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to our kids because they'll be doing the exact same thing yeah yeah but we'll
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be doing it with us i'll just be doing it with their grandparents so you can't
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help them sort their house out and organise. Cut your hours a bit, yeah.
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Is there anything to add to that, Sarah, from your perspective?
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Yeah, similar to Laura, but the three kind of values that stick out for me is teamwork.
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So Laura and I are very keen into our sports, played in various different teams at high levels.
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And for me, that's a core value that I grew up with and continue to instil
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at Dukes, making sure everyone feels part of the team. And there's different layers to that.
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Obviously, in a team, you have to show respect, give respect to other people.
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And in terms of leadership, knowing when to take the lead and to allow others to take the lead.
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So that's a key one for me and really key part of our culture that we try and.
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Kind of bring into Dukes to make sure that people feel part of the team part of the family,
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excellence is one of the values that i that kind
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of springs to mind for me but very much for similar reasons to
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what Laura said there about was aiming for those really high standards
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and for me that has then embedded in every kind of role that I've kind of touched
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and been part of and then the third bit would be discipline so you know that
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comes again from sports and on those weekends where we didn't want to tidy up
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or do whatever, do our chores.
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Sometimes you have to, it's all about turning up even when you don't want to.
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And that's still very prevalent in our roles at Dukes, sometimes your personal
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life, whatever it may be.
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But it's about motivating those others around you when you can tell that they
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feel a little bit low or whatever.
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And also just, you know, what's the word about grit and determination?
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You just kind of have to pull your socks up some days and get on with it,
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especially if you're running a company.
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So yeah absolutely you mentioned culture there
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Sarah and I think that's something Zoe I'd like
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to sort of pick up with you if I could really and yeah I've
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been a head of HR in the past as well so I know the
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sort of challenges - you know the party - well exactly exactly and quite
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often it's assumed that the culture rests with the HR function but you know
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you and I both know and I know that Laura and Sarah do as well that the culture
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is is absolutely across the whole of the organisation So how would you describe
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the culture that you've built at Dukes then?
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How does that translate into the day-to-day enforcement practices that are undertaken
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within the organisation?
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I think you've said it. We're a family-run business, and that really feeds into
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everything we do. We've got that family feel.
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Laura and Sarah have touched on it in terms of that innovating and continually improving.
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We're a real innovative firm. We're fast-moving, but fundamentally, we're people first.
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I think that comes down to the family culture that we've built. even as
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we grow it's really conscious for us to not lose that
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and I think through the way we make decisions and
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the conscious choices we make yes we make our decisions quickly because
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we have to in some instances but we trust
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our staff and we trust that decisions whilst made
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quickly will be made in the right way and doing the
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right thing is there it's embedded because it's
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just our moral compass kind of guides that in every in
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every way sometimes we know that the path the
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easiest path might be not the best path but we we
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take the difficult one if it means doing it the right way and i think that
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guides us entirely for us
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recently like we knew we had a good culture we have we do surveys every couple
00:15:06.461 --> 00:15:10.901
of years but last year we really wanted to kind of cement it more outside of
00:15:10.901 --> 00:15:16.281
our industry and one of the things we did was we got accredited certificate
00:15:16.281 --> 00:15:19.521
sorry certified through Great Place to Work.
00:15:19.901 --> 00:15:25.461
And we were really proud of our results. So 92% of our employees say it's a great place to work.
00:15:25.601 --> 00:15:28.401
Now, when you put that to the UK typical company
00:15:29.199 --> 00:15:35.259
UK-based company, that sits at 54%. So for all, it's like 92% of our staff. That's fantastic.
00:15:35.499 --> 00:15:40.839
So we're so proud of that. And in our industry, the average for one of the companies
00:15:40.839 --> 00:15:47.839
who's done it is 67%. So again, we have a leading culture. We have a leading
00:15:47.839 --> 00:15:50.179
mindset. That's one of the things that really sets us apart.
00:15:50.379 --> 00:15:55.359
We know we are leading the way in lots of ways, particularly the ethical enforcement side.
00:15:55.359 --> 00:15:58.119
But it's really bought into the business
00:15:58.119 --> 00:16:01.019
from that culture and just doing things the right way having a
00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:04.039
real focus on best best
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.099
in class really best practice yeah and I'm conscious
00:16:07.099 --> 00:16:11.659
of that that you put a lot of focus on that yeah a lot of your Linkedin posts
00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:14.919
for example about recognising the achievements of people within the organisation
00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:21.139
and and some of the team achievements as well yeah absolutely you probably have
00:16:21.139 --> 00:16:25.299
a an award cabinet tucked away somewhere which is overflowing Yeah,
00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:28.839
that's something I'm very proud of actually. That's something we've been working
00:16:28.839 --> 00:16:29.739
on over the last couple of years - yeh.
00:16:30.603 --> 00:16:34.143
And so, yeah, but it used to be the windowsills and now they're all taken up.
00:16:34.463 --> 00:16:39.343
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we just need to get a cabinet in both of our offices. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:40.243 --> 00:16:44.823
Which is fantastic. Good. You mentioned about the ethical approach there.
00:16:45.003 --> 00:16:49.143
And I think, Laura, that's something I wanted to pick up in terms of what does
00:16:49.143 --> 00:16:54.883
ethical leadership look like in an industry that's quite often misunderstood and misrepresented?
00:16:54.963 --> 00:16:57.963
So how is that manifesting itself at Dukes?
00:16:57.963 --> 00:17:00.983
For us ethical leadership is setting the
00:17:00.983 --> 00:17:04.543
standard and applying that consistently and
00:17:04.543 --> 00:17:08.263
and that's the key thing and that's setting it applying
00:17:08.263 --> 00:17:11.263
it consistently especially when it's easier not to so Zoe's
00:17:11.263 --> 00:17:13.983
kind of touched on that there yeah the easiest path to
00:17:13.983 --> 00:17:19.183
take but backing what we say with actions and not just slogans, so you know so
00:17:19.183 --> 00:17:22.403
many people can say different things but are they actually implementing what
00:17:22.403 --> 00:17:27.423
what they say? We we don't shout about things unless we're doing it So it's making
00:17:27.423 --> 00:17:31.023
those decisions with integrity and create a culture where those values that
00:17:31.023 --> 00:17:33.403
we set are lived by every day. They're not just written down.
00:17:35.302 --> 00:17:40.162
Yeah, it's your actions rather than your work. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, it's really good.
00:17:40.302 --> 00:17:43.682
That's really good. And Sarah, how do you balance the need for efficient recovery
00:17:43.682 --> 00:17:47.062
with the responsibility to protect people in difficult circumstances?
00:17:47.842 --> 00:17:53.022
I'd say that the two pretty much go hand in hand. So for those that are unfamiliar
00:17:53.022 --> 00:17:56.662
with the recovery process, they're taking control of goods regulations.
00:17:56.962 --> 00:18:02.722
They're set out of the process. So just to recap, there's three stages with associated fees.
00:18:02.722 --> 00:18:07.702
So you've got the first stage, which is the compliance stage with the £75 fee,
00:18:08.042 --> 00:18:15.122
the enforcement stage, which has a £235 fee, and the sale and removal stage, which has £110.
00:18:15.782 --> 00:18:18.242
Yeah. Just doing the basic overview there. Yeah.
00:18:19.162 --> 00:18:25.442
Now, for us, efficient recovery and protecting the customers that need it,
00:18:25.562 --> 00:18:28.662
the debtors that need it, whichever term we want to use, to say go hand in hand.
00:18:28.662 --> 00:18:34.302
That's because for us, we use, if we look at the compliance stage,
00:18:34.482 --> 00:18:38.122
so our biggest focus is on maximising collections at that compliance stage,
00:18:38.222 --> 00:18:39.442
the first stage that I mentioned.
00:18:39.702 --> 00:18:42.262
And we do that through investing in data.
00:18:42.762 --> 00:18:46.602
Because when we get these cases from local authorities, through councils,
00:18:46.782 --> 00:18:48.922
we have hardly any data to go with it.
00:18:49.002 --> 00:18:52.442
We just have the name and their address of what they believe is their address.
00:18:52.442 --> 00:19:00.322
So, we go that step further to, we collect data and we understand then their
00:19:00.322 --> 00:19:02.882
propensity to pay, if they've got any financial vulnerabilities,
00:19:03.622 --> 00:19:05.902
get additional contact methods and so on.
00:19:06.062 --> 00:19:09.402
We use that then to tailor all of our communications to say,
00:19:09.522 --> 00:19:12.582
look, we know that you've got, that you're potentially financially vulnerable,
00:19:12.822 --> 00:19:13.942
we've got a welfare team.
00:19:15.327 --> 00:19:17.807
We tailor the communication to try and get that early engagement.
00:19:18.287 --> 00:19:22.727
And the results then equate to personalised service for the debtor.
00:19:23.127 --> 00:19:27.407
They result in better engagement and therefore reduced fees because they only
00:19:27.407 --> 00:19:29.547
set at that £75 that they pay us.
00:19:29.767 --> 00:19:34.067
For us, that drives efficiency is because we collect more earlier on and we
00:19:34.067 --> 00:19:35.507
deliver better results for our clients.
00:19:36.500 --> 00:19:41.780
And actually, on average, we collect between 50% and 60% at that compliance stage. That's good.
00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:44.820
So less than half of our cases ever go to enforcement.
00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:51.040
Now, for then those that do go to enforcement, again, we drive efficiencies through using data.
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:57.860
So we use data to understand the most efficient time to visit based on historic
00:19:57.860 --> 00:20:00.900
data that we've got, and also to then inform the agent's scheduling.
00:20:01.300 --> 00:20:06.400
So the results, we use a lot of AI to drive that. We've built our own process
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:11.160
around and system, which is actually award-winning as well, just to throw that one out - plug plug.
00:20:13.180 --> 00:20:19.060
But the results mean that then for us, the routes that our agents do are more
00:20:19.060 --> 00:20:22.100
environmentally friendly, the eco-efficient routes.
00:20:22.260 --> 00:20:24.980
We could do more visits per day, which is obviously important,
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:26.560
and we get increased engagement.
00:20:27.060 --> 00:20:32.080
And that's one part that we layer on then, and it goes back to the culture and
00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:35.620
everything that we've already talked and I'm sure we'll continue to talk about
00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:39.680
shortly, but we layer that then with our enforcement agent incentive scheme,
00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:41.720
which focuses purely on quality.
00:20:42.140 --> 00:20:45.600
So when they're then going out and meeting people at their homes,
00:20:45.820 --> 00:20:47.540
it's all about how they treat them.
00:20:47.660 --> 00:20:51.280
And in terms of, it's not just getting payment, it's about understanding the
00:20:51.280 --> 00:20:54.420
circumstances, maybe if we didn't have the detail, understanding if they're
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.980
vulnerable and then treating them with respect in the right way.
00:20:57.980 --> 00:21:03.840
So for us, you know, efficiency, which we've driven through all of our data,
00:21:04.080 --> 00:21:05.740
which inspires all of our actions,
00:21:06.040 --> 00:21:11.620
then results in us doing the best and providing the best service for our debtors,
00:21:11.780 --> 00:21:14.680
customers, as you say. Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:15.020 --> 00:21:17.460
And as you say, it's about treating people with respect.
00:21:17.800 --> 00:21:21.840
That's absolutely key. Being human. Yes. They're humans, we're humans,
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:26.580
and I think that feeds into that's why the family business, the family feel,
00:21:26.820 --> 00:21:31.340
is seen at every angle or at every end of the customer journey,
00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.340
I suppose. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:21:33.620 --> 00:21:36.760
It runs through it like it was through a stick of rock, really,
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:41.320
doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is great. So just picking up on that then, Zoe.
00:21:42.361 --> 00:21:46.281
Can you share an example where a more empathetic and personal-centred approach
00:21:46.281 --> 00:21:48.141
actually changed the outcome of a case?
00:21:48.741 --> 00:21:52.461
Yeah, there's probably so many to list, actually.
00:21:53.201 --> 00:21:57.641
Because, like I said, that human interaction, that human approach is intertwined
00:21:57.641 --> 00:22:02.881
in their training, intertwined in the way that our agents or our contact-centre
00:22:02.881 --> 00:22:04.741
agents want to do their job.
00:22:04.901 --> 00:22:10.681
But I think two spring to mind. One being where an enforcement agent visited
00:22:10.681 --> 00:22:16.401
a debtor, a customer, at their home, and flagged severe vulnerability from the
00:22:16.401 --> 00:22:17.721
moment they said hello, essentially.
00:22:18.021 --> 00:22:22.061
It was very quickly established that that person didn't have enough money to
00:22:22.061 --> 00:22:24.641
feed themselves, let alone pay their bills.
00:22:24.861 --> 00:22:29.241
So naturally, the enforcement agent returned the case back to the client and
00:22:29.241 --> 00:22:33.361
said, look, no further enforcement action can ever happen on this individual.
00:22:34.201 --> 00:22:35.541
Just extremely vulnerable.
00:22:35.941 --> 00:22:38.701
But going completely out of his way he didn't
00:22:38.701 --> 00:22:41.701
go to his next job he took himself to Tesco went and bought a
00:22:41.701 --> 00:22:44.461
complete food care package for this person and his
00:22:44.461 --> 00:22:47.101
dog and and took it back to deliver it and
00:22:47.101 --> 00:22:49.941
said look that's good you've got nothing I've gone and done
00:22:49.941 --> 00:22:53.561
this it was out all out of his own pocket and just gave him
00:22:53.561 --> 00:22:56.461
something that he didn't have or the opportunity to go and get for himself and
00:22:56.461 --> 00:22:59.341
i think that talks to the human side that
00:22:59.341 --> 00:23:02.601
we're referring to yeah and we were exceptionally
00:23:02.601 --> 00:23:05.921
proud of that individual it was something that we we're still
00:23:05.921 --> 00:23:08.621
we're still proud of him and I'm talking about it now it's just
00:23:08.621 --> 00:23:11.681
that real human connection just feeding
00:23:11.681 --> 00:23:14.541
into his job really yeah I mean you can't you can't
00:23:14.541 --> 00:23:17.261
train that can you - no you you can't you're right -
00:23:17.261 --> 00:23:20.141
i mean you will train people who are within the
00:23:20.141 --> 00:23:23.461
organisation because you want them to perform at a certain level etc etc but
00:23:23.461 --> 00:23:27.981
something like that yeah it's about the right selection of the person in the
00:23:27.981 --> 00:23:32.241
first place with the right skillset that actually that's the way they would
00:23:32.241 --> 00:23:37.261
behave naturally in respect when they see people who are struggling and to do
00:23:37.261 --> 00:23:38.981
it off his own back is fantastic.
00:23:39.301 --> 00:23:41.341
Exactly. And that's one of the things you touched on it, with with
00:23:43.090 --> 00:23:45.970
It's about when you pick the right people. And for us, some of our roles,
00:23:46.090 --> 00:23:48.790
they can be open for a while before we fill them.
00:23:48.870 --> 00:23:53.790
And we think, no, we won't just sort of... It's a bit like when you're dating.
00:23:53.790 --> 00:23:55.610
You don't want to just settle for someone.
00:23:55.730 --> 00:24:00.230
And we like that with recruitment because it's really important for us to find the right people.
00:24:00.350 --> 00:24:04.430
They've got to build our culture and make it grow even further.
00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:09.650
But our reputation is so key to us. And we will spend longer on recruitment
00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:12.830
to make sure we're taking people on that won't only represent Dukes.
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:15.970
In the best way but we've got an industry that is under
00:24:15.970 --> 00:24:18.990
scrutiny and that needs good representation so for
00:24:18.990 --> 00:24:21.910
us we put a lot of time and money
00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:25.090
into the recruitment and training practice so that
00:24:25.090 --> 00:24:28.930
we have people like this that you don't even have to tell them what to do they
00:24:28.930 --> 00:24:32.730
just do it off the off their own back yeah it comes down to values doesn't it
00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:38.090
yes yeah it comes around full circle to where we started. Yeh you know we're clear on what our values are
00:24:38.090 --> 00:24:42.910
and you know as I said before it's making sure that the values aren't just written down,
00:24:43.290 --> 00:24:48.490
the team and the staff and family members, as we call it are living that out every day.
00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:53.710
He's not the only example of people that does that. He's not just a shining star. Yes.
00:24:55.090 --> 00:25:00.510
We are proud to say we have a great team across the board at all levels.
00:25:00.790 --> 00:25:04.670
They are really conscientious, caring people.
00:25:04.950 --> 00:25:11.690
One of the things that Zoe brought on when she joined is we have now,
00:25:11.850 --> 00:25:16.090
at the end of the year when we do our Christmas party, it's been kind of joined
00:25:16.090 --> 00:25:17.170
up as our awards ceremony.
00:25:17.450 --> 00:25:21.810
And we have what's called the Crest Awards because our company values are called
00:25:21.810 --> 00:25:26.490
the family Crest and obviously Crest makes up the acronym of some of our values,
00:25:26.870 --> 00:25:28.210
family being the headline one.
00:25:29.030 --> 00:25:34.770
And within that is the opportunity peers can vote either for peer-to-peer voting
00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:36.630
or you can vote for yourself, nominate yourself.
00:25:36.890 --> 00:25:42.530
You have to put through a whole application as you do with normal awards and people
00:25:42.530 --> 00:25:47.830
then get a certificate, well, it's not a certificate they get a trophy and a shout-out amongst
00:25:47.830 --> 00:25:50.890
the whole team, up onto the stage and everything, and then it's great.
00:25:50.890 --> 00:25:54.090
It's yeah recognition linking um and that's
00:25:54.090 --> 00:25:57.490
super important because it is more than just doing the
00:25:57.490 --> 00:26:00.310
job you know yeah yeah if you're doing Dukes it's about
00:26:00.310 --> 00:26:02.990
doing the right things yeah and that is it yeah
00:26:02.990 --> 00:26:07.430
and being and being recogniDed for doing the right things just only inspires
00:26:07.430 --> 00:26:10.930
other people to think yes I've had a great story this year i probably should
00:26:10.930 --> 00:26:15.610
shout about it a bit more or i could then put myself up for this or just inspires
00:26:15.610 --> 00:26:21.370
individuals yours to not copy others that are doing well, but just do similar things.
00:26:21.570 --> 00:26:26.290
And it's developing role models, isn't it, with the organisation, which is fantastic.
00:26:26.590 --> 00:26:31.430
And in fact, it leads me in because I'm just conscious that we're in a rapidly
00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:36.750
moving world and enforcement is moving arguably quicker than a lot of other
00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:38.490
places in terms of the development.
00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:44.750
And so what innovations, Laura, have Dukes undertaken either technologically
00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:49.630
or procedurally or culturally within the last few years that you're most proud of?
00:26:50.553 --> 00:26:53.593
I'm happy you've asked me that question, actually. That's a relief.
00:26:55.493 --> 00:27:00.133
Just because I've got quite a lot to say about it, but I'll try and be concise about it.
00:27:00.293 --> 00:27:03.113
From a technological point of view and procedural point of view,
00:27:04.073 --> 00:27:08.513
something I'm really proud of is at Dukes, we have our own kind of debtor website.
00:27:08.713 --> 00:27:13.193
So a standalone debtor website that sits alongside our one for clients or prospects
00:27:13.193 --> 00:27:14.553
that might find us on Google.
00:27:15.433 --> 00:27:18.113
That was a conscious choice to have that, to have two websites.
00:27:18.113 --> 00:27:22.813
And part of the reason for that is because, one, we don't think it's appropriate
00:27:22.813 --> 00:27:28.293
to be kind of shouting about how great we are as collectors in front of debtors.
00:27:28.393 --> 00:27:31.433
I think that's a bit insensitive, definitely.
00:27:31.973 --> 00:27:36.393
But also the other reason, the predominant reason, was because,
00:27:36.673 --> 00:27:40.713
you know, we wanted to ensure that we're able to create a good customer journey,
00:27:41.153 --> 00:27:44.993
a successful, efficient customer journey that provides the details that the debtor
00:27:44.993 --> 00:27:47.493
is looking for from the offset of when they get that letter from us.
00:27:47.493 --> 00:27:51.493
So, we've built this website that provides a whole host of information, you know
00:27:53.073 --> 00:27:57.333
There can be no confusion as to how they've ended up receiving a letter from
00:27:57.333 --> 00:27:58.853
us and what their next steps are.
00:28:00.069 --> 00:28:02.849
It showcases where they need to go for support, for guidance,
00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:05.029
how they can get unclaimed benefits.
00:28:05.309 --> 00:28:09.809
You know, there's a whole host of things on there, practical guidance and practical tips.
00:28:10.309 --> 00:28:13.929
But that's just the starting point, really. So 10 years ago,
00:28:13.989 --> 00:28:17.809
when I first joined the business in my role as marketing administrator,
00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:21.969
I was looking at the website and trying to figure out how we could make the
00:28:21.969 --> 00:28:22.809
customer journey better.
00:28:23.309 --> 00:28:29.369
And part of that was understanding that the trends in communication were changing
00:28:29.369 --> 00:28:33.909
people didn't just want to pick up the phone and speak to debt collectors.
00:28:35.109 --> 00:28:39.769
Vulnerabilities were starting to kind of be showcased and the word vulnerable
00:28:39.769 --> 00:28:42.009
was kind of starting to become more of a buzzword.
00:28:42.349 --> 00:28:47.369
So it was recognising that people wanted to kind of communicate in a way that
00:28:47.369 --> 00:28:51.009
was behind a screen, keyboard, more indirect.
00:28:51.449 --> 00:28:55.709
So we implemented a live chat system, which was hugely hugely successful.
00:28:55.949 --> 00:28:59.989
It was only available nine until five because that was our working hours at the time.
00:29:00.509 --> 00:29:05.329
And then we quickly developed that to become a chatbot.
00:29:05.749 --> 00:29:10.049
So the chatbot, and this was developed, I think about four or five years ago now.
00:29:10.229 --> 00:29:14.269
So we developed our own in-house chatbot that was available and is available,
00:29:14.429 --> 00:29:17.489
still available 24-7, 365 days a year.
00:29:17.829 --> 00:29:22.249
So what we've seen from that is we get a lot of debtors, a lot of customers
00:29:22.249 --> 00:29:28.289
contacting us out of hours on the weekend and they're able to get full support, full 360 support.
00:29:28.689 --> 00:29:33.329
They can manage their debt on there. They can make payments, they can seek support.
00:29:34.529 --> 00:29:38.509
It's, it's a really fantastic tool, knowing how successful that is.
00:29:38.629 --> 00:29:41.989
And obviously how AI is kind of taken, taking the world at storm.
00:29:42.769 --> 00:29:45.749
We haven't kind of sat there and thought that's great. That's doing a good job.
00:29:46.601 --> 00:29:49.981
Thinking about that continuous improvement I talked about earlier, we've developed it
00:29:49.981 --> 00:29:51.581
to become a virtual assistant.
00:29:52.461 --> 00:29:57.861
So it's in the stages at the moment. So the plan is that it will be available on phone.
00:29:58.121 --> 00:30:02.001
It could take a little bit of stress away from the calls that we still receive to the,
00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:05.669
customer hub and it can answer a call as if
00:30:05.669 --> 00:30:08.649
it's a human and basically direct the customer to
00:30:08.649 --> 00:30:11.689
whatever it is that they're looking for - more information maybe payment
00:30:11.689 --> 00:30:14.449
you know everything that a human could do
00:30:14.449 --> 00:30:17.109
the key thing is you know something that
00:30:17.109 --> 00:30:19.869
we're super proud of and I'm sure this is part of the reason why it's
00:30:19.869 --> 00:30:22.769
helped us win awards because we have won quite a lot of awards for
00:30:22.769 --> 00:30:25.949
this particular innovation over the last couple of years is because
00:30:25.949 --> 00:30:29.069
it also identifies vulnerabilities so it's
00:30:29.069 --> 00:30:32.109
not just one of those faq chatbots that
00:30:32.109 --> 00:30:35.029
sits on a website and is actually really frustrating because it's not answering
00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:40.709
what you want at all it's just you know yeah i've been on a few of those and - me too -
00:30:40.709 --> 00:30:46.069
we made sure you know as we were developing that software and that ai technology
00:30:46.069 --> 00:30:49.869
that it wasn't going to fall into many of those traps that we'd all experienced and hate - that's good yeh.
00:30:51.489 --> 00:30:57.249
So yeah it it doesn't do that it actually answers questions, it will flag vulnerabilities,
00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:00.609
internally to humans to to real people within the
00:31:00.609 --> 00:31:03.349
office if somebody said something or kind of
00:31:03.349 --> 00:31:06.769
used some terminology that that is alarming and obviously
00:31:06.769 --> 00:31:09.829
then we can report that back to the client or the
00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:13.169
enforcement agent wherever the case is sat. That escalates
00:31:13.169 --> 00:31:15.949
it out then doesn't it from being with the bot to a
00:31:15.949 --> 00:31:18.909
person yeah recognising that someone who is vulnerable will need
00:31:18.909 --> 00:31:22.229
the extra touch point yeah that's that's really important Sarah
00:31:22.229 --> 00:31:26.269
isn't it really because you you don't have it just whirling around or somebody
00:31:26.269 --> 00:31:31.489
being stuck in there it's having the ability to trigger it and to speak to a
00:31:31.489 --> 00:31:35.989
real person who can actually then personalise the the conversation and make
00:31:35.989 --> 00:31:39.529
it very relevant to the person who clearly needs that support - definitely yeah,
00:31:40.089 --> 00:31:44.969
it's taken some time to develop i mean when you said there was it been four years
00:31:44.969 --> 00:31:50.569
or whatever just after the dreaded C word, which is COVID, just to be clear,
00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:53.069
just after COVID happened was when,
00:31:53.369 --> 00:31:59.909
because myself, Zoe and Laura all jumped on that, as we kind of had to be furloughed
00:31:59.909 --> 00:32:00.709
and we couldn't enforce,
00:32:01.169 --> 00:32:03.649
our service did remain open so that if you.
00:32:04.318 --> 00:32:10.538
Contact us, we were available, so that was via phones, but then also our live
00:32:10.538 --> 00:32:13.738
chat at the time and all of us experienced responding to it.
00:32:13.798 --> 00:32:19.478
And that's where the idea of the chatbot was born, because actually COVID changed
00:32:19.478 --> 00:32:21.598
the way that people communicated even more so than in the last
00:32:21.838 --> 00:32:24.938
10 years - everyone then became online and they demanded 24-7,
00:32:25.258 --> 00:32:29.858
so that's what really propelled the chatbot too.
00:32:30.698 --> 00:32:33.958
I read something the other day that said COVID wasn't two years ago.
00:32:34.338 --> 00:32:37.118
It was nearly six years ago,
00:32:39.258 --> 00:32:44.978
so just mental. But yeah, that's one for me that I think...we're proud of. That's a really good example.
00:32:47.138 --> 00:32:50.498
We're the only ones in the industry that do that, and that's why we've won awards
00:32:50.498 --> 00:32:56.358
time and time again for it, because it's not something anybody could just replicate overnight.
00:32:56.658 --> 00:33:00.378
It takes a lot of time and a lot of investment, But it's been worth it.
00:33:00.858 --> 00:33:04.598
I think just moving on from that, that's a really interesting example, Laura.
00:33:04.718 --> 00:33:10.398
And I know you've spoken a lot publicly, Sarah, about raising standards across the whole sector.
00:33:10.658 --> 00:33:17.718
And what do you think needs to change at national level then to raise those standards still further?
00:33:20.018 --> 00:33:22.698
It's a great question, Well you're Right i mean the industry has changed a lot over the
00:33:22.698 --> 00:33:25.758
last 12 years it is since the control of
00:33:25.758 --> 00:33:28.718
goods regulations 2014 came in so
00:33:28.718 --> 00:33:32.138
or just approaching 12 years and between
00:33:32.138 --> 00:33:35.118
then and now you know there's been
00:33:35.118 --> 00:33:38.138
body worn videos that have been that the industry
00:33:38.138 --> 00:33:41.678
implemented to ensure transparency, protect
00:33:41.678 --> 00:33:44.458
enforcement agents and public uh we had then
00:33:44.458 --> 00:33:47.978
an independent complaints process with the care panel then
00:33:47.978 --> 00:33:51.458
we all with with the advice sector we work together as
00:33:51.458 --> 00:33:55.018
the industry I'm talking about now when i say we enforcement industry
00:33:55.018 --> 00:33:59.698
work together with the advice sector to propose an independent oversight body
00:33:59.698 --> 00:34:03.238
which is of course the enforcement conduct board yep and now we support the
00:34:03.238 --> 00:34:08.758
statutory underpinning of a regulator, so we've been through a bit of a journey
00:34:08.758 --> 00:34:13.778
and my suggestion would be that you know we need to continue supporting the
00:34:13.778 --> 00:34:14.978
enforcement conduct board,
00:34:15.158 --> 00:34:18.998
it's likely that there will be a statutory regulator now this year.
00:34:19.178 --> 00:34:21.758
Sure. It's very likely that it's going to be the Enforcement Conduct Board,
00:34:22.018 --> 00:34:24.958
although it wasn't guaranteed in the MOJ's note.
00:34:25.138 --> 00:34:31.078
But for me, really, it's about staying on that journey and providing the data
00:34:31.078 --> 00:34:37.318
that the Enforcement Conduct Board want, cooperating with them and taking accountability as well.
00:34:37.998 --> 00:34:42.878
There's, so that's the Enforcement Conduct Board, which is kind of the overarching piece.
00:34:42.878 --> 00:34:45.878
I'd say that there's another bit in terms
00:34:45.878 --> 00:34:48.818
of enforcement agents, now we've talked
00:34:48.818 --> 00:34:52.658
about what great enforcement agents look like and then there's a lot of that
00:34:52.658 --> 00:34:56.978
a lot of great practice that goes on across the piste in the industry but i
00:34:56.978 --> 00:35:03.418
think personally that the industry and national level we could do with to more
00:35:03.418 --> 00:35:07.918
consistency or more continued focus on trying to,
00:35:08.538 --> 00:35:12.838
out any bad apples - now there's bad apples in every industry you know,
00:35:12.858 --> 00:35:17.878
across multiple industries, people can decide to, for whatever reason, to not act
00:35:19.298 --> 00:35:25.738
within at all the regulations. And I think there's still an onus on all firms
00:35:25.738 --> 00:35:30.558
to take action when they find someone that isn't always... Yeh yeh
00:35:30.898 --> 00:35:35.258
There's the phrase, they're not fitting proper enforcement agents.
00:35:35.538 --> 00:35:37.418
And it's something that we're passionate about.
00:35:38.078 --> 00:35:41.698
You don't like to do it, or you obviously don't do it. What's the word?
00:35:42.558 --> 00:35:45.758
When it's prematurely, there has to be sufficient grounds
00:35:45.758 --> 00:35:48.678
for it but where someone really has acted incorrectly against
00:35:48.678 --> 00:35:51.678
regulations for me where there's no sign
00:35:51.678 --> 00:35:54.858
of that training retraining will help absolutely yeah um
00:35:54.858 --> 00:35:58.158
you know we have a duty to encourage them
00:35:58.158 --> 00:36:01.278
to leave the industry. Sure no i think that's very powerful actually
00:36:01.278 --> 00:36:05.198
and it will be interesting to see how the enforcement conduct board evolves
00:36:05.198 --> 00:36:10.878
as the year progresses so yes interesting interesting. Zoe, I'm looking before
00:36:10.878 --> 00:36:15.878
me and there are three ladies sitting in front of me in what is a very well
00:36:15.878 --> 00:36:19.058
historically very male-dominated industry.
00:36:19.398 --> 00:36:26.598
So what have been your experiences in terms of the face of women leading the
00:36:26.598 --> 00:36:28.698
way in this industry and you.
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:34.100
What have you found has been a challenge to you and where do you see that moving forward?
00:36:34.580 --> 00:36:39.820
Yeah, it has historically been a male-dominated. I think it still is to a great extent, really.
00:36:39.940 --> 00:36:44.100
I think that being said, there are some strong leaders in the industry.
00:36:44.260 --> 00:36:46.560
There's also WIRE, the Women in Revenues and Enforcement.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:49.820
Yeah, which I know you're all very active with. Yeah, been established Laura and Sarah
00:36:49.820 --> 00:36:51.720
particularly being part of the board.
00:36:52.140 --> 00:36:55.100
And I think that's making some really great change. It allows for
00:36:55.100 --> 00:36:58.460
a lot more accessibility for people to come through an industry that was
00:36:58.460 --> 00:37:01.480
once deemed more of a male environment that hard
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:04.540
to get into or hard to want to work in but for
00:37:04.540 --> 00:37:07.860
us I think and for me I see it as a strength that
00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:10.940
we are even the fact that we're in a kind of a trio or
00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:13.880
sisters let alone just being females in
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.820
a male dominated space I don't see it as necessarily
00:37:16.820 --> 00:37:19.860
a barrier because the different perspectives
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:22.720
that it brings, it brings a level
00:37:22.720 --> 00:37:25.600
of balance we have different ideas that come into the table
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:28.500
all the time and I don't just mean with Laura, Sarah and
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.520
I but 90& of our senior leadership
00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:34.360
team is female so for us we've kind
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.380
of got that ingrained in our leadership in
00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:43.280
the business and the way we are positioning ourselves as a company because we
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:48.240
we know it brings a different kind of leadership style where we have a very
00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:53.480
decisive and again to go back on that word before human so balancing that human
00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:55.400
and decisive leadership style, I think,
00:37:55.740 --> 00:38:00.140
comes from the strength that women bring to the environment and the industry.
00:38:00.620 --> 00:38:04.900
And I think we have each other's backs and that's us as sisters,
00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:08.420
but just as a senior leadership team, we have each other's backs.
00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:10.100
So I think, yes, there are challenges
00:38:10.100 --> 00:38:14.680
in being taken seriously or kind of getting a seat at the table.
00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:19.440
But once you have a seat at the table, I think it's really important that it
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:24.580
can be known and shown that women bring an excessive amount and a really wide
00:38:24.580 --> 00:38:27.560
range of like perspectives and and
00:38:29.093 --> 00:38:31.773
completer finishers which we all are we we can bring a lot to the
00:38:31.773 --> 00:38:34.833
table and i think we've we've recognised that and we've been lucky
00:38:34.833 --> 00:38:38.193
to be supported in it not just by mum
00:38:38.193 --> 00:38:41.053
and dad who have kind of have shaped the way or paved the path
00:38:41.053 --> 00:38:43.913
for us but also from the people that we're working with every day
00:38:43.913 --> 00:38:47.233
kind of feed that in don't they. Yeah well you've
00:38:47.233 --> 00:38:49.993
all actively proven that you're able to deliver that
00:38:49.993 --> 00:38:52.953
so you know that's all credit to you. I think
00:38:52.953 --> 00:38:55.933
just just winding things up if if
00:38:55.933 --> 00:38:59.453
the listeners want to take away one message about what
00:38:59.453 --> 00:39:02.153
what ethical enforcement really looks like in
00:39:02.153 --> 00:39:05.153
practice what would that be? I'll come to you first
00:39:05.153 --> 00:39:09.673
Zoe I would say it's not like what you hear on tv or in the press I know that
00:39:09.673 --> 00:39:14.553
we've kind of touched on the perspectives or the perceptions rather of enforcement
00:39:14.553 --> 00:39:18.713
outwardly outside one industry we know what we're striving for and we're doing
00:39:18.713 --> 00:39:23.993
really good things but yet the perception of us as an industry isn't quite there,
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.559
But we know that that's not the case. And at Dukes, for us, we know what we're
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.039
trying to do and it's doing the right thing at every avenue.
00:39:33.279 --> 00:39:36.859
And having a passion to continue to do that, I think, is really important.
00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:39.979
And I think when you haven't got the passion to do things the right way or to
00:39:39.979 --> 00:39:43.039
care really deeply about the people that you're trying to support,
00:39:43.259 --> 00:39:45.439
it's probably not the environment to be in anymore.
00:39:45.459 --> 00:39:49.499
But I think for us, it's not just a rule book as such.
00:39:49.779 --> 00:39:53.579
It's a mindset. It's something that's just really embedded, that ethical
00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:56.659
enforcement is just our our nature
00:39:56.659 --> 00:40:00.119
do you agree Laura? Passion and determination yeah yeah
00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:02.819
yeah absolutely Laura. I would agree i would
00:40:02.819 --> 00:40:06.819
probably add to that it's also about you know ethical enforcement really looks
00:40:06.819 --> 00:40:11.139
like being human i'm kind of relaying the point but it really does so considering
00:40:11.139 --> 00:40:15.479
the person on the other side even when we've got targets when we've got timelines
00:40:15.479 --> 00:40:20.239
or the scrutiny increases it's important that we still consider that person. Sure, sure.
00:40:20.419 --> 00:40:24.759
I think that's a very valid point that you've made right the way through this,
00:40:24.879 --> 00:40:26.779
Laura. So yeah, totally with you on that.
00:40:26.999 --> 00:40:31.399
And finally, Sarah. Yeah, probably piggybacks a little bit of what Laura
00:40:31.399 --> 00:40:36.219
said there is really that it's about how the results are achieved,
00:40:36.419 --> 00:40:40.139
how we achieve things is just as important as the results themselves.
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.399
So again, it goes back to doing things the right way and whether or not that's
00:40:45.399 --> 00:40:50.979
trusting your guts or processes, you know, it's about how you do it.
00:40:51.419 --> 00:40:53.359
It's often more important than what you do.
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:58.999
Fantastic. Well, wrapping things up, thank you very, very much indeed. It's been tremendous.
00:40:59.219 --> 00:41:02.579
It's the first time, as I mentioned right at the outset, that we've had a podcast
00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:04.899
with three people on the other side of the table.
00:41:05.359 --> 00:41:09.179
And it's been really, really interesting. I think it's been a valuable insight.
00:41:09.579 --> 00:41:13.039
I'm conscious this podcast has taken longer than our average ones,
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.899
but then we haven't had one with three people here before.
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.219
And it's been really interesting. And thank you all so much.
00:41:19.419 --> 00:41:20.399
It's been tremendous. Thank you. Thank you for having us, thank you.
00:41:22.990 --> 00:41:26.450
Thank you to everyone who's listened to and supported the MALG podcast so far.
00:41:26.710 --> 00:41:31.490
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00:41:31.490 --> 00:41:35.070
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00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:36.470
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00:41:36.930 --> 00:41:46.510
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