Enduring Otherwise

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Five h hh.
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Okay, hello and welcome to Minor Compositions. For for this
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this week's conversation, we have one of our first uh
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repeat visitors, so thank you for coming along again again, Ferdie.
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Hey, yeah, thanks for having me again.
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Yeah yeah, And this is a good excuse because we're
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getting together to sort of have a chat about your
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al Can we say the book the book is new
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for is it new for like a year or for
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our six months or for two years?
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Or I think a year maybe, because yeah, I've been
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doing so many book talks also in person that it
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felt so long already. But actually, yeah, I think still
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there're so not that many people that who knows it
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the book, so I think it's we can still consider
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it new.
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Okay, yeah, So so say we're having a chat, but
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but Ferdie's new and quite excellent book and during otherwise
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Muslim queer and trans transport booking Indonesia. And I will
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tell you upfront that that that that my knowledge of
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queer politics or transpolitics Indiesia is quite limited, but I
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was I found your book super interesting and really really fascinating,
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and in part because it's about the world that I
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know very little of. But yet as someone who was
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raised Catholic and sort of knows a thing or two
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about feelings of guilt and how religious world structures your
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your affects, It's like, there are things here which I
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recognize even though I don't know the world, oh superest.
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So maybe as sort of a starting point, let's say,
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how would you introduce this book to people who have
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it intelligip yet? Like what are you? What are you
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exploring here? Such the obvious from the super obvious.
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Like what do you? What do you?
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What do you play with your perdie?
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Yeah? I think it's important that I describe the book
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as like an ethnographic book, so it is basically a
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book that looks at different I mean, everyday forms of
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life rather than you know, I'm not a political scientist,
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I'm not a sociologist. My work is always focusing on
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working with people, and this is basically what anthropology is about.
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And sorry research base, but my research look at how Muslim,
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queer and trans people live in Indonesia, and this intersection between
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muslimness and queerness or transness is a particular focal point
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that I'm looking at because, in like popular imagination, the
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relationship between queerness and transness to Islam has always seen
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something as irreconcilable, as something that is difficult to Yeah,
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it's incompatible. And so the book actually starts from the
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very question on how do people sustain meaningful life when
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social and religious and political conditions around them do not
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fully accept them or or a firm of who they are.
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Basically mm hmm, yeah, I.
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Think there's something interesting there in you mentioning being ethnographic now,
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because I want to go into people about photography. But
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in the sense about that writing a book, getographically means
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not just showing up doing a few quick interviews or
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have to get chat with people people. It requires in
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depth understanding of how world making happens in this place,
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how culture operates, how how it regards what's more in
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merci level and detail, then you get in most kinds
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of writing.
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Yeah, I mean, I mean people call it like participant
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observation basically, so you don't just participate or just observe,
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but you also participate in the everyday life, right, every
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day flow of life. But as a kind of like
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also as a background actually, because I myself coming from
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more or less similar background a Muslim queer myself. I'm
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from Indonesia, So a lot of the questions that were
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strayce as the book starting point is actually also for
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me biographical questions because this very question of I mean,
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in a simple word, people whether they're Muslims, whether they're
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non Muslims, or they're you know, Indonesian or not. When
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mostly at that time, at least when I start my
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research around fifteen years ago, the question that people ask
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is like when when they heard then I'm a Muslim
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and I'm queer, as this kind of stereotypical or stereotyping
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question asking like, oh, how is that for you? Like
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aren't you aren't you experiencing some kind of conflict or
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inner conflict? And this very question, rather than trying to
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answer it myself, is basically the question that I go
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around with with when I meet the the protagonists or
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the interlocutors in my filmwork. Basically of course, and not
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in a way like not as a kind of like
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a horrible question about this conflict, but actually I observe
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or I participate in a situation where this conflicting situation
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came up, and basically how they deal with it.
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Yeah, And that's probably interesting part of if anything, I
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think that that that that being participant kind of helps
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you and that the people you're talking with a sense
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that that this is this is for you isn't some
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sort of abstract question but somebody you also have had
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to wrestle with yourself about this completing you know, relationship
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between religious values and sort of personal ethics and and
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how these two fit together and how you live.
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Yeah, because yes and no, because I think one one
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additional dimension that that also actually it's become actually a
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key Like my main approach uh is what I call
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as effective ethnography. So it's very much looking at like
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the emotional life, the feel like the various types of feelings,
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atmospheres that that that emerge in their life in the
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context of Muslim square and transporlt making which actually allows
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me hm how to say it. Like in Indonesia we
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have this term when when people you don't have to
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be close friends, but sometimes when people met and they
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have I don't know, some kind of problems which is
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more like caused by emotional conflict and so on, Uh,
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they would kind of pour out their hearts out. This
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is the term like tudahan Hatti to pour out on
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one's heart basically is it is a way of interacting,
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interacting usually in intimate settings. But this is also something
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that I adopt as as a way of talking with
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the interlocutors in a way that I don't interview it.
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I don't prepare, you know, questions in advance and then
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go to see them and ask questions, but rather just
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fully becoming a listener basically, Yeah, and by listener meaning
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like to really listen to. And somehow there is a need,
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a dire need in a community to be able to
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be heard or to be listened to. And some of
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the stories, although maybe to say it flows naturally is
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a bit simplifying, I would rather say that there's enough
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closeness between us or report between us that allows that
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makes them comfortable enough to tell basically their life stories,
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their what what, what they're thinking, what they're dealing with,
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using this so called churanhatty to an extent that sometimes,
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because I work with different communities, they would tap my
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shoulder and call me, hey, what are you doing? Are
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you not doing anything? Can we talk? You know, like
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let's let's have a tough because the our last stuff
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has been very nice and and and yeah, so it's
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becoming almost like for my part it is like a
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service to listen to their stories. But also the tricky
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partook because also this is part of research, and of
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course they are all aware about this.
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Might be an aspect and maybe maybe sort of speculating
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here where they start to treat you as like that
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like nice slightly older brother that people wish they had,
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that they could talk to, that they didn't have in
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their own families, or like just you.
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Know, mm hmmm, I mean, of course not everyone. Yeah,
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I went, I think out of I met quite a
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few people in during my film work. I'll explain later
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in which which locations, but uh, and some of them
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are new locations. One of them is actually a new
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location and the other two is uh. The new location
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is in ache Uh, which is in the northernmost part
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of Sumatra and Indonesia, and then in Jio Jakarta where
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actually this is my chosen hometown, and in Jakarta, which
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is the city where I'm born or where I grew up.
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But still even of course, especially in ache is not
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easy to to because the situation there is already very
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difficult for sexual and gender minorities because they have their
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own legal system since a while since Yeah, there's a
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long history of conflict and natural disaster the tsunami that
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changed the whole landscape there, including legal ones, and they
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implementary allow basically since two thousand first in first being
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discussed two thousand and five, and I think being installed
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in thousand and six, which make it very difficult for
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for for sexual and general minorities even just to be
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to be just to be there basically, So when I
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came there with my research topic, with my research idea,
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of course not a lot of people are welcoming to that.
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But when they do, then the relationship is kind of
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what translates into the book basically. But when when you
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said it, whether they they they treat me as a
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brother or a sibling, I guess it's more about they
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don't have anyone to really listen to. Like of course
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they have friends and maybe families and even partners, but
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sometimes actually the problems that they're having is actually with
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the people who are around them and with me, I guess,
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because I'm also a stranger in some way, but but
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a weird stranger who goes to all the way, you know,
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to to to listen to their stories. For them is
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also something. Yeah, they also make take use of it.
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They make then they try to gain as much from
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from the encounter as I do.
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I mean, we're a stranger, but we're who also shows
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up in the book on people's motorcycles. At times or
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like late nights, discussions at the salon or at the
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at the coffee shop or other places places feel more
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part of the world.
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Yeah, exactly, right, when you go to a bar and
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you're speaking to strangers and then you're more open and
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you're more generous in your stories rather than when you're
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talking with people around you. Yeah, are you're intimate with
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mm hmmm. So yeah, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even
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frame my relationship with them as friends or you know,
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or siblings or brothers, because that's what I am. I'm
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there as a researcher, and I think most of them
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fully realize of my what my role is. Yeah, mhm.
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We talked about a little bit about the title. I
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think it's quite evocative idea about and and during otherwise,
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so it's not it's not necessarily very heroic sounding, but
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that's not the point. It's almost like finding ways to
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almost like get on despite great adversity or how how
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do you how do you? How do you think about it?
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I'm like, what is it come from?
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For you?
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From different places, but like from for for the more
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like conceptual I as. I was inspired by the works
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of Povinelli about late liberalism and endurance, also the work
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of abdu ma Ale Simone, who talks about improvised life
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and how in the urban global South, endurance has become
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a way of not only surviving but also kind of
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tapping into unlived or unrealized potential potentialities, right, because there's
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a waiting involved there, but also there is some gain
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in the process of this enduring or waiting for something
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to happen, and only it is on the other hand,
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for for the otherwise. Actually, I'm inspired by the work
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of Ashan Crawley, who with black study researcher scholars whose
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work was or is about for their particular term is
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from his book Black Pantacostal Breath, about the the breathing
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as a space of possibility, right, and then he defines
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otherwise there as something that this multiple possibilities that already
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exists in our lives is just not being tapped into,
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or it's not just seen as possibilities as such. And
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this reminds me all the way go to this whole
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form of pre pre prefigurative politics and how basically work
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with what is around us when we're thinking about, you know, change,
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when we're thinking about transformation, we're not starting from this
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kind of fixed destination, but rather than working with the
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relationship that we have, the materialities that that that that
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is sometimes become resources, but sometimes becomes a challenge.
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Right, So let me see if I if I understand
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saying the important thing here is not here's a narrow
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nel salon. It's almost like, what does this nail salon
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allow in terms of world making? How it operates means
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material support or a safe a safe space of refuge
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or of course of friendship. It's more like what it
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does for the people there, rather than what it is.
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Yeah, yeah, I mean this is a hair salons the
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correct I had run by transwomen in actual basically, this
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is what Steven was telling about in my book, which
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is run by Maya, one of the main protagonists. And
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uh yeah, at the beginning she made theo or basically
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she created the Solon hair salon of course as a
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means to survive right to to to have a livelihood.
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But also this is not just decision that came or
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I have some money or I have some investors and
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make hair salon. But this is something decision that came
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after going through live so yeah, so so like filled
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with violence. Basically she was a sex worker. At some
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point she was abused by her family members. She moved
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different to different cities. She works in different hair salons
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as well, and when she came back to her hometown,
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she felt that she wanted to make a hair salon
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that let basically doesn't reproduce all the other violent experience
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that that that that she she experienced before. And so
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that's why it's from the outside it looks like a
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normal running hair salon and the the workers there are
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mainly transfomen because in in Indonesia in general, UH, it
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is difficult for trans people to to have like this
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kind of like stable office job. So the only options
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UH that they have if they have skills, then they
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would either work or own a hair salon or maybe
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work in fashion design. But those who are who have
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no access at all, than a lot of them working
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as as a sweet busker right singing for money from
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door to door or sex workers. So these are mainly
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the forror uh forms of employment that that could access.
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So having this salon is as a place for livelihood,
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not just for her but also for her community. But
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because actually, as I told you, it's a special location
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in a way that it's impossible for these women to
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be in public uh more than they need to because
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they're subjected to ridicule, subject to there's a moral police
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there who who And then also they're kind of trying
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to blend in with other women wearing his job right.
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But also this also creates another insult of them trying
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to you know, play with religion and so on. So
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what initially started as a hairsalon slowly becomes this kind
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of what you said, this community. I wouldn't say safe space,
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but this is because exactly by hanging out there on
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a daily basis, it's also made it made it made
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it easier for them to be targeted like more by
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moral police or police officers who maybe doesn't want to
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arrest them, but you know, like for getting some cigarette
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money and so on, just to you know, like, so
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they have this place which they they can interact. But
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also it's quite quite fragile the safety mm hmm.
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One thing interesting is so, for instance, you talked a
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little bit about and you're talking about this in the book,
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how like there was political changes I think you said
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starting in two thousand and six, which was the nine
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that allowed the introduction of shrial law. But then you
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also remember, correct with the reading, like these outbursts of
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let's say more like kind of quasi vigilante community policing
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don't happen immediately. They happen at different points in times.
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But I'm not clear like what what like what causes
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that or it.
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Was just.
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I mean different different because I think on one important
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turning point was the nineteen ninety eight reform Indonesia where
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basically after Suharto, the authority Energyma Suharto, they basically managed
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to silence all sides of society from the right and leaf,
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from the Islamis and from human rights movement, from environmentalists
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to women movement. And when the head is chopped off, right,
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but so Arto is gone, basically there's this kind of
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window of openness, right, everyone was like, oh yeah, let's
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bring back Marxist left, this knowledge that has been censored
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for such a long time. Let's bring back conversation around
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gender and sexuality that is not you know, following the
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models that is made by the state and for the
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Islamist also there were there were for a long time
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being oppressed. They're being the politicized basically, which doesn't there
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so they didn't have a lot of channels to express
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their opinions and voices as well. So with this opening,
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what happened is then you have a lot of groups
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from left as well as from the human rights from
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queer rights are forming mobilizing. But at the same time
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also people from the conservative side become more active right
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And since then then basically you have this kind of
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continuous frictions in public spaces. But I think one of
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the I said one of them, because there's a new
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development that I will also share later. Another turning point
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was in twenty sixteen when there was a time I
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remember where a lot of Western country start to embrace
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legalized same sex marriage basically and this also translate into
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new circulations, but also you know, opinions debates in social media.
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I think one of the I remember when US legalized
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same sex marriage in twenty fifteen, there was a filter
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in Facebook right when people can use rainbow filter as
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their profile pictures and I think a lot of because
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Indonesia have a lot of Facebook users at that time,
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and a lot of people are using it, and that
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kind of surprise the conservative they didn't realize actually how
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many how much support there is for if not allegedly
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queer themselves, you know, for for same sex, legalizing same
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sex basically, and this creates a lot of pushback from
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from the conservative, one being at that time the Minister
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of Education and Research who tweeted that he he's banning
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uh student Queer Initiative in University of Indonesia and Jakarta.
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And because because of this statement, of course a lot
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of human rights activists, core activists kind of respond back.
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But actually the counter response from the conservative is much moresive, massive,
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and it translates into physical spaces as well. There's kind
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of like you see in different big cities in Indonesia
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and like banners, posters with slurs, with anti LGBT slurs
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basically and campaign and yeah, and then and then it
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kind of it's not gone, but it's kind of like
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because the impact continues consept like sequent like sporadically through
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police rates also vigilanti raids to housings, to fall on us,
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to parties, and actually just last month, the heat is
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cranked up again with the Indonesian Lama console. Oh so sorry,
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my story is long because this is also a long history.
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So recently Indonesia adopt or changed their pinal code. Right, Initially,
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before homosexuality was not was was was not criminalized basically,
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but since twenty twenty two we have a new penal code.
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Still homosexuality is not penalized, but same sorry sex outside
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of marriage is so meaning Stephen, if you are not married,
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then you are hesterosexual. You're still going to be criminalized
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based on this new penal code. Right. But also and
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this is like an umbrella clause that the women also
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same sex same sex sexuality is also criminalized because it's
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outside of marriage or same sex marriage is not legal
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in Indonesia, So it's kind of like this whole logic.
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Yea twenty twenty two we have that, and apparently the
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conservative or the Islamic console is not happy that there
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is no actual clause that criminalize LGBT. So as Pride
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season recently again activate the whole social media scene. Uh,
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the Ulama consil come up with a plan to now
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or they're working together with the parliament member to to
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to to to criminal to come up with the new
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law basically against lgbt which UH too little that we
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know they're actually they they have a legal basis for
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that because our new president, the military general or the
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former military general probable in their National Defense Scheme under
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presidential regulation define different national threats and UH divided into
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military and non military threats, and with non military threats,
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for instance, atheism consider as non military threats. Online gambling
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is considered as non military threats, and LGBTQ culture is
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also considered as non military threats. And because of this
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is this official document. Now more and more like conservative
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institutions are tapping into that, and then they're really really
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trying to push now to change the whole yeah situation.
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I mean, that's kind of evilly clever that you're yoking
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yoking together things which could cause actual harm, like the
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abjective gambling to something which is just not harmful at all.
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But it still reminds me of the way someone like
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David Gribber, borrowing from bits and talks about the idea
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of skisble genesis, where you define yourself against the other
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that you're not. So so this is bad here because
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this is also of spending time in Singapore and talking
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to queer friends there and the way they talk about
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how how oftentimes conservatives in Singapore with Frank quitness as
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being the sort of like this Western import and then
385
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we're like, well, no, actually the thing that's important was
386
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not queerness, but was actually homophobia.
387
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:20.519
And gender binary. Yeah, yeah, because of this binary. Actually,
388
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I think the core of it is actually binary, that
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00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:27.759
that that really tried to define something that that is
390
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:32.759
in sexual Sorry, in Southeast Asia or Global South is
391
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.160
much more fluid, right, you have different different roles and
392
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:41.200
positional at positionality you don't have. I mean, you can
393
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.559
be a woman, a man, a trans woman, transman even
394
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:50.160
like other kind of configurations of gender and sexuality that
395
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:55.960
basically are being impovourished by this model of gender binary.
396
00:31:57.200 --> 00:31:59.799
And then comes to the hierarchy in it, right, So
397
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.400
the masculine is kind of the highest in the hierarchy
398
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.920
in comparison to the feminine. And where patriarchy comes in,
399
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:15.640
where homophobia comes in, frotophobia comes in as well. So, yeah,
400
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.119
homophobia is a Western important I agree with you, it.
401
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:26.000
Does seem a certain way, which what what's underlying kind
402
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:30.720
of anxiety that makes Frga discussire is almost like fluidity
403
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.720
is bad. Stay in a box, whatever the box is,
404
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.039
just stay there and no no, no, you can't move
405
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:37.599
you keep you over here as well. No no, no, no,
406
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:39.799
stay in your thing. Mm hmm.
407
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.119
Yeah, that's that's the thing. That's why I also I
408
00:32:43.720 --> 00:32:50.359
like this concept ambivalence a lot, right, Like, because people
409
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:54.559
always the question is always either this or that right?
410
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:59.319
But how about both this and that right? People could
411
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:05.200
be have much more dimensions than two or even just
412
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:10.839
one right. And with ambivalence, I guess it's something that
413
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:18.720
because it describes the reality of the relationships and attachments
414
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.960
that we have, Like some of our attachments, our desires
415
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:28.400
can be contradictory, but it doesn't mean that we're not,
416
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:37.079
you know, desiring both right, because people rarely experience things
417
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:42.920
as purely positive or negative ways. They can love their
418
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:47.119
families while feeling hurt by family expectations. They can value
419
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.200
religious traditions while questioning certain interpretations. So you have all
420
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:58.119
these sites in the human experience, and why do you choose?
421
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.599
Why do you have to choose between those two.
422
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.480
Right, I suppose that's what I was trying to get
423
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:09.239
out my brief perhaps not well thought through much at
424
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:13.199
the beginning, about but understanding similar issues from being raised
425
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.360
Catholic and the moment there is that like you might say,
426
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.760
if a religion or social world is condemning of your
427
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:24.599
desires or your reality or your living, just leave. But
428
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.760
like just saying just leave kind of glasses over the
429
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:34.400
fact that that it created a world and expected and affects.
430
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:39.239
Then one is basically possible to just magically exit suddenly
431
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.000
two one of those things you still value in that world.
432
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.679
H I do, I do have one of the plug
433
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.760
whenis Ana actually she identified herself as an ex Muslim
434
00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:55.599
quare like a former so she left Islam practically. But again,
435
00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.440
like if you read her story, even after the deciding
436
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:05.320
to leave the things that she finds problematic, there are
437
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.800
still many other problems that she's dealing with as a
438
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.880
human as from like a spiritual perspective, but also from
439
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:19.079
like relationship perspective. It's almost, Yeah, that's what I think,
440
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:25.159
that's what makes life possible to to to to be
441
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:29.199
in these imperfect situations with at the same time always
442
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.119
imagining different possibilities.
443
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.639
Did you happen to come across any sort of let's say,
444
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:40.920
like parts of the Muslim community, like institutionally that were
445
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.840
more accepting or welcoming of query trans folts.
446
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.159
So maybe just like that, just to give a context
447
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.599
of time, when I start these research, it was two thousand,
448
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.480
I mean, I have this idea of doing or I
449
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:02.000
apply here and there for my PhD proposal. Since twenty ten,
450
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:05.880
I think, so at that time there wasn't that many
451
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.960
So but slowly, as I start doing my research, more
452
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:20.360
and more initiative are being organized. In Jukja Karta, for instance,
453
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:26.199
you have in Indonesia, or in Islamic tradition, you have
454
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:29.800
a so called Pasan trend, which is basically a religious
455
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:35.039
a school to learn about Islam. Right. And also this
456
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:43.719
is a very popular educational practice in whole Indonesia where
457
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:48.199
people either fully go on through the Pasan trend system
458
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:52.360
or they combine it with formal education, so they would
459
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:57.039
go to circular school during the day and then study
460
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:01.559
study in the Pasan trend during the evening and also
461
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:07.880
spend the night there. But the thing is it's very gendered,
462
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:12.440
meaning only male students go to the male Centran and
463
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:16.039
then the female students go to the female center. And
464
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.639
this doesn't give a lot of space to trans people,
465
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:26.760
right because so in Jojja actually they initiate the pasandrain
466
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:34.239
for for for transfer for trans women, inviting also clerics
467
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:41.800
who are quite progressive. I would say, uh. And because
468
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:45.519
there are more and more progressive interpretations of the Qur'an
469
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.360
because basically in Islam, the thing, the very thing that
470
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:54.920
that made homosexuality a big no no is there is
471
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:58.920
a there's a the story of lot right, I think
472
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:04.159
you have it also in Bible uh. And with the
473
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.159
progressive interpretation is basically the the frame uh, the the
474
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:15.760
city of Sodom, right, Uh, The inhabitant of Sodom was
475
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:20.519
not punished by God because of their committing homosexuality, but
476
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:27.239
because they were basically practicing a lot of uh inhuman
477
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:33.280
like slavery, uh, sex without consent and so on. So
478
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:39.119
so this initiative for instance, and then actually when I
479
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.480
a few years back, there is a very open transman
480
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:51.079
uh also cleric uh his name is Amar Alpha Car
481
00:38:52.159 --> 00:39:01.760
who uh initiate uh Quranic uh reading online or queer
482
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:10.760
people again with more empowering, more affirmative interpretation of Quran.
483
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.440
So yeah, it's becoming more and more, I would say,
484
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.639
especially among the younger generations, but not during the time
485
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.559
when I did my research, unfortunately.
486
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:27.440
I mean, it was not so surprising that when world's changed,
487
00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.480
they had to change either very slowly or all at once.
488
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.360
So maybe you only saw a little bits of things
489
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:35.239
happening here and there.
490
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:41.920
Yeah, I managed to capture the moment when Yeah, this
491
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.599
transitional moment, I guess, because I think what happened with
492
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:51.360
internet and information is I think more and more people
493
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.559
like you have a lot of this kind of initiative
494
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:58.760
as well globally in South Africa, in the US, right,
495
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.559
so people catch up with that quite quickly.
496
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:10.679
Mhm. Oh, this is gonna be a strange question. But like,
497
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:16.159
how do the spaces that you're you're visiting from trans
498
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:20.320
folks relate to other kinds of say marginal spaces that
499
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.920
might be talking about like like punk kids or like
500
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.360
weird artists, or is there any sort of overlap between
501
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.119
the world or they takenally separate.
502
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:35.239
It's different in different cities. I think the capital of
503
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:40.800
Mandace there's a lot of punk kids communities as well,
504
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.199
but also they are actually quite very marginalized as well
505
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.760
from the moral perspective, from the ria perspective. So there
506
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:57.719
are quite a few I wouldn't say coalition, but like
507
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:02.280
they they they hang out together sometimes here and then,
508
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:07.599
but not really like at that time. Also, there's not
509
00:41:07.800 --> 00:41:13.039
really more mixed organizing. I would say, again, this is
510
00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.960
a different with the current times because they are more
511
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:23.599
and more punk slash queer. They spaces emerging in Georgia
512
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:30.199
in Jakarta. But during that time, I think again because
513
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.440
it was a transitional time, it felt like each are
514
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:39.000
fighting on their own, you know, like because they're all. Yeah,
515
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:43.360
intersectionality at that time wasn't so much being a thing,
516
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:49.440
So people still struggle in silos. Basically, I would say,
517
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:54.800
even among the gay men and the trans women, they're
518
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:59.400
quite clear separation and sometimes they're also quite some conflict
519
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:03.079
there due to the gay man doesn't want to be
520
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.519
seen around trans women because they want they don't want
521
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:11.440
to be you know, found out in a way, and
522
00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:16.159
the trans women doesn't like the guts of the gay
523
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:18.960
men because they think there are arrogant and so on
524
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.639
and so forth. So these little kind of fractions happening
525
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.960
that to an extent that actually in Actually I had
526
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.280
to do my field work with the gay men in
527
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.920
one town and with the trans woman in another town.
528
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:35.320
They're one hour away from each other, but still like
529
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.480
American effort that so then there's no kind of because
530
00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:46.320
gossip and rumors, this is always something about the queer
531
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.599
trans I think in any community it has become the
532
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.440
bane of like in every interaction.
533
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:58.400
Basically, I think this is the one thing doesn't think
534
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:03.199
well is recognized with there's well of of of of gossip,
535
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:08.199
which is category sociologically aren't just throwaway but actually are
536
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:12.239
important key parts of how communities bind themselves.
537
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.280
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But also what is interesting a
538
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:23.920
lot of in this rumoring and gossiping, some of them
539
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:28.960
also use it as a as a space to kind
540
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:35.440
of practice their moral judgment. I would say, So there's
541
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.280
a lot of moralizing, so a lot of borrowing from
542
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:45.480
religious religious teachings and values and sometimes also othering that
543
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.800
is happening within the community. And this is what I'm
544
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:52.400
also I wanted to say this earlier about how a
545
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.719
lot of members of the community that I saw or
546
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:02.360
that I met also felt that they were born as
547
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:05.960
Muslim first, and then they realized that they become queer
548
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:09.599
or they're queer or their trends right, So for them
549
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:18.039
having kind of like religious identity is also as as
550
00:44:18.199 --> 00:44:26.920
important as having sexual and gender identity, because myself also
551
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:31.800
included I I'm not a practicing Muslim. Now I'm a
552
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:36.239
nominal Muslim. I'm an id based Muslim aka Muslim in Indonesia.
553
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:43.119
But but I grew up, you know, with religious teachings
554
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:47.800
from not only from schools, but also in in in
555
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.039
daily practice at home from my parents. So this is
556
00:44:51.119 --> 00:45:00.400
something that felt. Yeah, sometimes it's a bit for others
557
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.760
who who who who have the opinion, yeah, you can
558
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.320
actually leave a religion, but actually, in the context of innesia,
559
00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:11.639
I don't think it's sponssible. I mean, of course you
560
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:14.880
can convert always, but there's so many, so much social
561
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:20.280
sanction that comes with it, if not legal sanction. So
562
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:23.360
being convert or being at this as I told you
563
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:28.679
it was written in the regulation that it's it's right,
564
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:30.559
mm hmm.
565
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.440
I mean, there's there's a certain sense which the convert
566
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:38.400
is always going to be kind of a stranger, let's say,
567
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.320
the most the most social aspects of the world that
568
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:44.840
you're brought into because because you're you're joining it rather
569
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.719
than have always been there.
570
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.760
Yeah yeah, I mean it's different. Like in Malaysia, even
571
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:55.440
it's it's it's illegal to convert, like so the law
572
00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.760
says that every Malay are Muslims, so if they are
573
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.960
born in Malayan family, then they have to be Muslim
574
00:46:04.039 --> 00:46:07.639
with no possibilities of moving to other religion. And Indonesia
575
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:11.519
is less strict than that, but still there's a lot
576
00:46:11.559 --> 00:46:14.760
of risk that come.
577
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:18.440
I mean, we could get into into a very interesting
578
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:23.599
discussion about the very weird history of British colonial categories
579
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:28.159
around racist religion like Fredistan. Correctly, the British Empire used Malay.
580
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:32.960
They basically mean any dark skinned Muslim person. So first
581
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.079
in seventeenth century British Empire code, a person from Saudi
582
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:40.280
Arabia was Malay m M, which of course is completely
583
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:47.280
nonsensical because what happened that's thousands of miles away.
584
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:55.800
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. In Malaysia it is kind
585
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:59.280
of continued until now this kind of racial racial segregation.
586
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:05.599
Indonesia doesn't have that because we although we are Muslim
587
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:11.000
majority country, especially in eastern part and central to eastern
588
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:17.280
part of Indonesia, we have also Christian majorities, right, But
589
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:23.800
again doesn't mean that if you're a Christian living in
590
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.679
Christian majority region in Indonesia and they are queer, that
591
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:34.119
you would be saved as well, because within the minor,
592
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:40.400
within this minority minority, there's also quite a strong conservative power.
593
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:45.360
Working mm hmmm, and that conservative resident can compress itself
594
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:48.320
and some of the ways even though it's not the
595
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:48.960
same religion.
596
00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:52.760
Mm hmm. I had I had this, I had this,
597
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.280
I had this audience question. I think it's his uh,
598
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:04.880
his European. So his question after my book presentation was like, oh,
599
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:08.159
so what are you saying? So is it the fault
600
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:12.119
of Islam or is it the fault or Indonesian culture
601
00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:16.599
that people are homophobia, because like, is there any in
602
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:22.159
my presentation that suggests that. No, it's not my point
603
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.960
at all. It was like, you have homophobia across religion,
604
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:32.599
you have homophobia across cultures. Right, And then this person said, well,
605
00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:35.840
but what about Bali because I was in Bali and
606
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.360
they're quite open. It was like, well, you went to
607
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:41.079
a tourist area. If you go to Balin to go
608
00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:45.079
to I mean, if you are locals, you'll see that
609
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:51.840
being queer and friends. Also they have a difficult life
610
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:54.039
there because also there's a lot of rejection.
611
00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:00.159
It seems to me the I mean, I don't want
612
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.239
to say that you don't have your own political or
613
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:05.000
ethical values here, but excuse me, this book is less
614
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:10.159
about like understanding the root causes of homophobia, orph war,
615
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.400
but war. It's like, here are people making the world,
616
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.039
getting on themselves, and this is how it works, what
617
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:19.519
what it makes for them, and you're still exploring that
618
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:22.840
and being with that more so than like trying to say, Okay,
619
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.079
here's why it happened. It's almost like saying this is happening.
620
00:49:26.679 --> 00:49:30.119
These things do continue regardless of what the law says
621
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:32.559
or what the state says. These worlds exist.
622
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:37.760
Mm hmm. A friend of mine, uh, a colleague of
623
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:42.440
man told me, because there's no there's nowhere if I
624
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:46.679
refer to Marx, there right in my book. But he said,
625
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.280
my book is really Marx's way, because there's this constant
626
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:55.880
like I approach my study always.
627
00:49:56.360 --> 00:49:56.519
Uh.
628
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:01.119
Maybe because I don't know if all anthropologists agree, but
629
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:06.920
I found as someone who worked with people on the
630
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:17.920
grassroots and struggling against or struggling within the context of oppression,
631
00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:27.320
struggling against states, struggling against passive institutions. Is that it's
632
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:32.719
like a dialectic rather than forever, like there's no win,
633
00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:36.480
there's never any long win. There's and there's also never
634
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:42.920
any long loser. Right with history, it's like things are
635
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:51.320
like they kind of interrelate, they things things. When things
636
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:54.840
on the left are becoming more sophisticated, so that's the
637
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.119
right wing, you know, Like so they find new new
638
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.719
ways also to to and is kind of this kind
639
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:06.400
of back and forth, these dialectics, I think, what is
640
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:13.480
what defines live and and of course the fights are important,
641
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:19.199
but if we focus too much on the fights of
642
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:23.320
the winners and the losers, we forgot like the kind
643
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:24.960
of like the long run of things.
644
00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:26.599
So how.
645
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:35.159
There are casualties there there that there there are people
646
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:38.320
also need to breathe, to to to to take care
647
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:43.199
of each other. So that the so called liberation project
648
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:48.000
is not it's not a it's not a messianistic movement,
649
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:51.679
you know, it's not it's not as chathological. It's it's
650
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:55.199
always it's always there will be always a pushback and
651
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:58.639
then and then when the times come, then it's time
652
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:05.800
to like like to reconsolidate, but also to really again
653
00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:10.400
check what we have around us, rather than to just say, oh, yeah,
654
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:13.880
we all fail uh and then we give uh, which
655
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:20.199
creates a kind of frustration and anewy and paralysis which
656
00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:25.239
I actually also understandable. But from what I how, I
657
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:27.440
see it as actually people just need to take some
658
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:32.280
some rests, some respite, and then they can continue their
659
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.400
strugg fight again uh again for the long run.
660
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:39.800
Right, I think what I think I find intioning about
661
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:42.880
the way you wrote the book. This would be difficult
662
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:47.440
to phrase, but when you see when you, for instance,
663
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:52.199
watch like media or or read fiction, oftentimes you only
664
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.639
have queer and trans characters who exist to be sort
665
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.039
of fill in for like they have to deal with
666
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.920
the university of being repressed and that's why they're heroic.
667
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.039
And but the old exists to be fulfill that role.
668
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:06.639
You never get people just they're just there to be
669
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:12.400
there mhm. And it's almost like you're exploring how these
670
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:17.440
worlds maybe operates the wrong world, how the practices of care,
671
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:22.519
of listening, of doing things together, how important they are
672
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:26.000
not because they're taking part in a heroic quest against
673
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.159
homophobia and all these almostly because They're just important because
674
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:32.239
they're world and themselves. They have value in themselves, it's
675
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:32.760
what they are.
676
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:41.400
Yeah, yeah, I think what I'm trying as much as
677
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:49.559
to do is yeah, because I don't mind heroic stories.
678
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:54.119
I don't know. I also find some values and stories
679
00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:59.480
of affectinghood. Right. But but the thing is mm hmm.
680
00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:04.000
For me, what is more important is to stay loyal
681
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:07.840
to to to the stories that are shared to to
682
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:15.840
to by by the protagonists in a way that, as
683
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.039
I told you, we have all these things together, we
684
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:20.840
can be careful or sorry, how do you how does
685
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:26.320
it like compassionate? If not careful, we can be compassionate.
686
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:29.440
But also at the same time doesn't mean that we
687
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:34.719
can't disagree with each other, right, And that's the thing,
688
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:44.599
like if we we we anchor all this this complexity
689
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:49.199
into certain only certain one value over the other.
690
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:50.760
Is that.
691
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:59.719
It's hard to mm hmm. It's it's too like, yeah,
692
00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:03.559
you you can't be sterile around this, around this, because
693
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:10.320
this is the the texture of everyday life, right. And
694
00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:13.360
I'm trying to think of an example of this so
695
00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:18.000
called care work. For instance, I think again the case
696
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:24.599
is Maya. She's been taking her friends queer or not
697
00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:28.719
queer to to to to to the hospital because she
698
00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:32.360
she she has quite some access to the nurses and
699
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:36.760
the system because she she worked for hivng OH for
700
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:41.480
a while. But because she was seen very often in
701
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:46.480
the hospital, people start to gossip that, oh, yeah, MAYA
702
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:53.519
have HIV, which actually a big stigma still in parts
703
00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:58.840
of Indonesia, including Anji, enough to make people stop going
704
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:05.280
to her hair salone, for instance. So after hearing that
705
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:09.280
that story, she she she literally came through the door,
706
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:12.519
like banging the door, and well like because there's no
707
00:56:12.599 --> 00:56:15.519
one else, she just like start shouting at me. But
708
00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:19.000
she's not shouting at me, she's shouting at the person.
709
00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:23.639
But basically she was like, do you realize what I've
710
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:26.199
been doing all this time? I'm doing it pro bono
711
00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:28.599
and no one cares. And this is what I got, Like,
712
00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:32.960
this is like people talking bad about me? Right, So
713
00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:35.360
what is the purpose in all of this? Right? That
714
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:41.599
that's what so even in in like yes, people can
715
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.719
perform care, but also there's a limit to it. If
716
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:48.920
there's no support, there's no recognition that comes with it,
717
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:54.840
then it becomes yeah, she is not only a burnout,
718
00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:59.639
but also like yeah, she she she she she, she
719
00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:03.000
quite uestions all of her work. That's far right, what
720
00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:08.960
would actually uh very important I found, But then yeah,
721
00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:14.159
I was also very depleting because there's no one care
722
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:18.119
for her in the meantime. So the care is again
723
00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:24.239
the resources that we think is uh never ending or endless,
724
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:26.280
but actually no, there's a limit to it. And if
725
00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:32.199
if there's no effort, no conscious effort, intentional effort put
726
00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:35.880
into that to care is about to be in a
727
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:42.360
relationship and it's as it requires procality, then what happened
728
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.480
is you have all these burnouts and conflicts and frictions, right.
729
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:51.079
Mm hmm, Yeah, it seems important that that that almost
730
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.400
like the lack of recognition of what she's doing there
731
00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:59.360
actually another burden because it's almost like but it's not
732
00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:02.039
recognized that has has has has other effects that are
733
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:02.519
quite bad.
734
00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.559
And this is not recognition from the other side of
735
00:58:07.639 --> 00:58:11.840
the community or those who poser, it's actually recognition from
736
00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:16.199
within the community. Also, sometimes people take tests for granted,
737
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.559
right because this is what activist is supposed to do,
738
00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:22.880
This is what our leader has supposed to do, is like,
739
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:28.840
so this kind of create this weird hierarchy.
740
00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.599
It's also tricky because you know, I can see it'd
741
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:35.280
be very easy to assume that like if you have
742
00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.800
a very small community, that everyone would know what's going
743
00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:41.039
with everyone else. And then if someone's doing the kind
744
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:43.679
of support work for years, that everyone else would already
745
00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:46.760
know that. But you know, but but yeah they don't.
746
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:51.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But this is also just one case
747
00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:56.400
in point. I think in general, in general, it is
748
00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:01.280
possible to create this this this how do you call it? Like,
749
00:59:02.599 --> 00:59:08.480
I still not I'm not sure about using safe space,
750
00:59:08.599 --> 00:59:14.480
but there's this space where people could be right. But
751
00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:16.800
at the same time, also as I told you, it's
752
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:22.400
very fragile because the moment there is politicians saying something
753
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:26.840
or something came up in the news, and there will
754
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:37.079
be the ones who will be forst targeted. M Yeah, so.
755
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.119
You say, I'm it was a friend or that, But
756
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:48.000
how did your friend think your book was? Was was Marxist?
757
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:55.119
Now? Because of the I don't know, maybe because and
758
00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.960
because I have made so much focus on the materiality
759
00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:08.000
of it, right like uh, I uh, maybe she's comparing
760
01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:16.639
it to this more I would say humanistic queer scholarship
761
01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:23.199
that tends to look at desire and forms of intimacy,
762
01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:30.719
while I look at more like materiality and how relationships
763
01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:35.679
are kind of mediated by a change of resources, and yeah,
764
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:39.760
so it's much more. Yeah, I don't know material base.
765
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.320
I guess it's it's just funny because if I was
766
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:45.639
gonna reach for comparison and now I'm probably gonna totally
767
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:49.039
offend you. So you could probably yelp me, I probably
768
01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:51.840
reached loss for marks, which more for like Mitch Donie.
769
01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:55.639
Oh, I'm not familiar with that.
770
01:00:57.199 --> 01:00:59.239
He's Another problem is that does a lot of photographies
771
01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.159
like you bo called Limb's Table, which is about the
772
01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:06.280
diner in Chicago, Chicago. Basic summary with books is here
773
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.840
is a martialized community. It turns out they're actually building
774
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.360
a moral community for themselves and here's how it works.
775
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:18.639
Mmmmmm mmmm yeah I can I can say that. Yeah,
776
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:23.239
I mean you can say that, of course, but everyone
777
01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:26.480
has their opinion. I'm not saying my work as a Marxist.
778
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:32.239
This is also just one interpretation. But I guess I'm
779
01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:35.400
starting with that, sorry, because I do believe this idea
780
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:41.559
of like, uh, dialectics and in politics and social life.
781
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:49.360
Yeah cool, cool, Well, we're getting up into around the
782
01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:52.920
hours a public book with sort of a few things
783
01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:56.639
to nudge you to towards a conclusion or myself conclusion.
784
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:03.360
What would you say for some of the I, you know,
785
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:05.599
thinks about people who read the book, what would you
786
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:08.360
ideally like people to take away from having read your
787
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:10.360
book of Like, here's what I here's what I learned
788
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:16.000
from from reading Ferdy's book. It doesn't have to be
789
01:02:16.039 --> 01:02:18.440
a big thing. It could be something quite small, because
790
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.960
sometimes the small things are maybe the most important.
791
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:30.800
At least for I mean, there are many many kind
792
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:34.760
of targets, right, I think for the community themselves, I
793
01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.920
guess I think it's important because and although this is
794
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:43.079
also this is something that I got feedback from someone
795
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:48.400
who read or someone who use the book of parents
796
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:54.440
who has a trend child who has difficulty in talking
797
01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:57.159
about these things, and then they read the book together
798
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:04.119
and then have a you know, common like have a
799
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:09.960
conversation around it. It's about Yeah, the for me, it's
800
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:17.119
about creating space for conversation basically about how how difficult
801
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:20.480
it is actually to build worlds together.
802
01:03:21.440 --> 01:03:21.800
Huh.
803
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:26.719
I think it's with Graver who says, like when we
804
01:03:28.320 --> 01:03:31.360
when we're we're we we enter into collective situation, a
805
01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:35.800
collective situation like an assembly, right, Like, we felt very
806
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:40.559
moved by it, and we want to to to Actually,
807
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.840
what's happening next is that we want to to to
808
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:49.559
It's about trying to recreate the same collectivity again, which
809
01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.960
actually most of the time doesn't work because then that's
810
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:56.239
where all the care work comes in, the administrational work
811
01:03:56.280 --> 01:04:04.519
comes in. So this, this, this very idea of collectivity
812
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.119
is a means for liberation, but it doesn't that doesn't
813
01:04:09.239 --> 01:04:18.719
mean that like you can't just rely on this or
814
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:21.280
objective via collectivity as it is, but it is something
815
01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:27.920
that you need to constantly work on, uh, in an organization,
816
01:04:28.239 --> 01:04:30.679
in a group of people, in a group of friends.
817
01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:36.039
So just don't take prevented anything that goes into that, right,
818
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:40.840
including care, including this agreement, including how to listen to
819
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:46.760
each other, how to deal with conflict. But for of course,
820
01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:50.639
for the bigger audience that doesn't know much about most
821
01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:56.239
of them trans or trans communities, or about how they live,
822
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.920
how they think, I hope this kind of gives them
823
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:05.840
early way up to to two to understand that that
824
01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:12.800
that uh, having a different sexuality and having a different gender.
825
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:21.280
Also they are in yeah, we are all human, you know,
826
01:05:21.480 --> 01:05:26.440
like uh uh, we have our failures, we have our
827
01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:33.880
success but but at the at the very end, we
828
01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:37.840
are as vulnerable as everyone else. Like as uh, I
829
01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:42.039
think speaking of inner conflict, as you said, you don't
830
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.480
have to be a Muslim, you don't have to be
831
01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:46.599
queer to to to have this inner conflict. People have that.
832
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:53.719
All people have that in different ways. So in a
833
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:58.920
sense also give so then people could give more grace
834
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:04.760
to others, uh uh, or their failures and their difference.
835
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:05.559
I guess.
836
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:10.039
In certain ways, what's more more interesting is less that
837
01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:13.920
there is an inner conflict and more what people do
838
01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:17.159
as they respond to the inn conflict and how they
839
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:18.719
make sense of it and how they relate to it,
840
01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:20.480
how they're processing.
841
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:24.159
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think, I think even even
842
01:06:24.199 --> 01:06:27.599
when it although its name is inner conflict, it's never
843
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:30.760
in any individual thing actually because a lot of it
844
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:36.679
involve relationship, involve talking with others, involved solving it with others,
845
01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:41.920
but also uh the other way around, like attacking out
846
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:44.800
and rejecting others.
847
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:50.639
So so yeah, yes's funny. It prefers with like I
848
01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:52.800
don't know, like it like the inner conflict between us
849
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.840
or something were words but an interiority, but the entire
850
01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.559
arty is always expressed it relationally.
851
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:03.039
Mm hmm, yeah exactly. That's also I think what I'm
852
01:07:03.079 --> 01:07:07.440
trying to do, which is not easy because to write
853
01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:13.960
about once interiority. I think a novelist could do that successfully. Also,
854
01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:16.320
a novelist can do that in the kind of like
855
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.800
But because I did this ethnographic research, there's I only
856
01:07:22.920 --> 01:07:26.239
see like the tape of the icebergs of what these
857
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:31.079
people are thinking, are feeling basically mm hmmm mm hm cool.
858
01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.039
Cool. Well, I'll ask you just two more things. I'll
859
01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:36.840
say that I really enjoyed the book, and I hope
860
01:07:39.079 --> 01:07:41.679
this conversation will lead more people picking up and having
861
01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.519
having a go at reading it. But so the two
862
01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:46.840
things that maybe sort of end with tonight. One mm hmm.
863
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:49.800
Who do you want to play you in the film version?
864
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:56.719
Oh no, that's seconitely. Where are you going next in
865
01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:58.519
terms of projects or thoughts.
866
01:07:58.360 --> 01:08:05.800
Or I don't know. I'm not good with pop cultures.
867
01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:20.520
Who actors definitely like a white actor. No, it's hard
868
01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:24.479
because I also I have very little note of Indian actors. Sorry,
869
01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:26.920
I mean you can.
870
01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.319
Also go with like I'd prefer to be an anime,
871
01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:32.479
or I want a cartoon version, or or I'd prefer
872
01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:34.439
to be cartoon animals.
873
01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:36.239
Or yeah, actually I.
874
01:08:38.600 --> 01:08:38.880
Like this.
875
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:49.880
Film, right, maybe something around around that pion very cool? Cool,
876
01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:53.079
And you're what was your second question?
877
01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:58.680
H distract it by just like what are you doing next?
878
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:01.000
You're working on the project.
879
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:07.439
Or So when I did my PhD, I kind of
880
01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:15.800
avoid working with activist groups because this is also by process.
881
01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:20.600
I learned that because of exactly there's a lot of
882
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:27.319
what I call dirty laundry within activist scenes that at
883
01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:31.239
that time I felt that I don't know how to
884
01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:37.000
deal with this like ethically, because there's so much dirty
885
01:09:37.079 --> 01:09:40.640
laundry within the activist scenes. And then I'm not a journalist,
886
01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:44.399
but still as a researcher, I need to to bear
887
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:49.319
witness to it. And so rather than going through that lane,
888
01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:58.680
so I avoid engaging with them altogether. But now ten
889
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:06.479
years later, uh, confronted by this reality that actually things
890
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:10.399
not only not get better, but also get even more
891
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:17.880
I call it more sophisticated, like it's more kind of uh. Yeah,
892
01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:23.159
they're also the structure of violence, the so called structure
893
01:10:23.159 --> 01:10:30.479
of violence is also becoming more agile, uh, and more
894
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:36.000
more hard to deal with. I felt that actually I
895
01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:43.560
need to engage with activists more because I guess what
896
01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:46.399
stops them or what what?
897
01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:47.039
What?
898
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:53.039
What contributes to the difficult that they're facing now is
899
01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:57.279
also because they're not engaging or they're not dealing with
900
01:10:57.479 --> 01:11:03.439
this kind of complexity enough. Because activists they want to
901
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:06.039
be pragmatic, right, they want to have their goals, they
902
01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:11.199
want to have their action points and so on, but
903
01:11:13.159 --> 01:11:16.600
they also forget about what goes in between that. Who
904
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:20.920
who will buy the toilet tissue where the toilet tissue
905
01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:27.560
is it's not there? Who will uh fix them for fridge?
906
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.640
Who will provide the food? No one's taking care of
907
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:34.159
that because everyone is too busy being at the forefront
908
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:39.199
right But actually, as you know, as you as we
909
01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:45.840
all experience right now, when the so called violent structures
910
01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:52.520
has becoming, it's everywhere almost everywhere you go physically by
911
01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:56.640
from the state, from the institution, from the university, from
912
01:11:56.840 --> 01:12:03.199
the corporates, from their writing activists, from the political parties,
913
01:12:03.479 --> 01:12:12.039
even from people you see on the street. We need
914
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:16.439
that space, We need that space for healing and reparation
915
01:12:17.439 --> 01:12:22.560
also within us. So my next project is about exactly
916
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:28.880
wanting to look at the role of called radical care
917
01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:36.199
environment also care beyond humans in relation to queer and
918
01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:40.640
transactivism in not only in Indonesia but in Southeast Asia,
919
01:12:41.319 --> 01:12:44.840
because I want to engage with Malaysia. We mentioned it
920
01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:48.079
already and maybe several other countries.
921
01:12:50.039 --> 01:12:53.920
M Yeah, that sounds like super interesting and I'll look
922
01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:55.199
forward to hearing more about it.
923
01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:59.319
Yeah, I'm not sure about writing a second book because
924
01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:01.960
it took me twelve years to finish the first one.
925
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:04.760
But let's see, maybe the second one will be faster.
926
01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:09.479
Not all things have to be books, but Dad, I
927
01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:14.720
just can take many forms. Maybe it'll be a laundromat
928
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:18.159
where you can people do their clothes together, clean, clean
929
01:13:18.199 --> 01:13:24.239
the dirty laundry. Right, but thank you very very much
930
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:25.560
for that. That was super interesting party.
931
01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:30.279
Thank you Stefan, and yes, thank you for making the type.
932
01:13:30.720 --> 01:13:34.960
I know you are in a difficult situation now hop everything.
933
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:38.560
I hope you can endure it and then also have
934
01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:41.560
some otherwise possibilities come up out of it.
935
01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:44.560
I will find ways to endure otherwise.
936
01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:17.720
Doing the doping bink Doggi