What Does Consent Really Mean? | MENtality with Ebuka, Banky W & Deji Osikoya

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On today's episode of Mentality with Ebuka, consent remains one of the most misunderstood conversations around relationships, masculinity, and power.
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With my co-host Banky W, we have a chat with media personality and influencer Deji Oshikoya.
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This season of mentality with Abuka is brought to you by Schwepps and the Glen Lee Vett.
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Good to see you.
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Thank you so much.
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On a very interesting day on the show.
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Alright.
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Thank you.
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You like a cocktail?
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What?
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Yes, please.
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That'll be nice.
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Please say you know you know what I want.
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Yes, ladies and gentlemen.
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As you can see, we have here with us the dejoya.
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He's uh DJoshikoya.
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Oh my dear.
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He likes to be humble, but you know, we have to give you your flowers, even if you feel like the flowers are not ready.
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Just like I'm going to add another like 300k to my rate.
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Media personality.
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Um, are you an influencer?
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Uh I think people have started to ask me to influence things to make sure.
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I also act.
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Yeah, act.
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Oh, yeah, that's true.
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You also act as well.
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Yeah, I host things.
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Yes.
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And you have an interesting podcast.
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Yes, yes, with an S.
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With an S is an Afrobeats related podcast for a couple years.
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I love the name With An S.
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That's dope.
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Afrobeats with S.
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With an S, yeah, that's dope.
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That's dope.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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I'm really honored, man.
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You guys already know from the show how much I admire you both.
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So like this is a privilege for me.
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We paid him to say that.
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But unfortunately, we're not talking Afrobeats here today, ladies and gentlemen.
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You're welcome to Mentality with Abu Kahn.
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Today we're talking consent.
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A pretty heavy one.
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He's an authority.
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I don't know if he is an authority.
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But you know, I why I think you're appropriate for this is um whether you're Gen Z or not, you're young.
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Yeah.
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And I think in the last couple of years, a lot of us millennials or older millennials, Gen X, boomers, whatever, the world sort of put everybody back in check to realize that, you know, some things we let slide or thought were okay.
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Actually, you're not.
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You know, I was saying earlier these days when you watch back certain series, friends, um, all of these shows back in the day that were like cultural moments for us growing up.
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Yep.
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And you see how some of the conversations were so awkward, even like movies, they're just like have you ever rewatched Rush Hour?
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Like, it's so weak today's eyes, and you're just like, eh, and you know, they have to put a warning here in front of you now to be like a new one, right?
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Just to make another rush, please don't try and fix things out.
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But all of this, you look through at things with different lens now.
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I think me too also just blew everybody's mind.
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Like, okay, um, consent is not even always just physical.
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Yeah, sometimes it's things you say.
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You know, um, there's a gun.
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We're gonna get into all of that, but I think the governor of New York at the time, Cuomo, who lost his job for things he said that in the past we would have thought were compliments, but were inappropriate.
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And in his eyes, it's like, but I was just being complimentary.
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They're like, no, you were saying things that were uncomfortable.
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It's a very interesting, but I think it's also opened everybody's eyes.
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Yeah.
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And maybe for us now, as we become even parents, you understand why it's also important.
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Yeah.
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Um, because you're raising kids in a different world now.
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But I want to start this conversation with a phrase I saw recently about how in the past they would say no means no, but now they tell you only yes means yes.
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Um, and you know what that means.
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Um, the context of, I guess in the past, they would tell you if someone tells you no, it might not necessarily mean no, it's them trying to form or play hard to guess.
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Hard to guess was a very interesting phrase for just playing how to guess, keep apply pressure.
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But now, if you've not expressly heard yes, nothing else matters.
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What's your take on things as an older millennial man?
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Um, so I think I think you you put it um well when you said it's shifted from no means no to only yes means yes.
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And I think it really speaks to just this idea that back in the day there was this notion of like the gray area, right?
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Where it was like, oh, you know, you have to be, you have to apply pressure, you know, and just this idea of there being a gray area, but now it's like that's it, that can be a very slippery slope.
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And so it's the elimination of the gray area that there really is no gray area, and it's about respect, it's about dignity, it's about honor, and just being clear that you are allowed to proceed with whatever level of intimacy that you are, you know, that you are gunning for.
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Um, you know, I this conversation is interesting for me because I've I've lived in a certain era, and you know, I'm in a certain era and a certain place in my own personal journey now.
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And the way that I see it is like, you know, the Bible says we're all made in the image of God, right?
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And if you truly believe that everybody is made in God's image, then respect is not optional and honor is not optional.
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You have to kind of approach any of these situations with those things in mind, and you know, that's where consent is is critical, really.
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You know, an added part, added part to that is outside of even just yes being yes, they almost say that you should have an exclamation mark at the end of the yes.
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So it's not enough that it's a yes, it has to be an enthusiastic yes.
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That's the extra layer, that's the extra layer that's kind of come out to it now, where it's like a person can say yes, but their body language might not agree.
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Their general just attitude in the moment might not agree.
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So it has to be more so that you know for a fact that this is something that they want to engage in as well.
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I think that's fairly recent, I would say, maybe in the last 10 years, that's another aspect of it as well.
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It has to be an enthusiastic, yes.
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And I'm I'm gonna play devil's advocate a lot today.
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Sure.
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Um, but also because I also want us to learn as much as we can.
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Because what you say now is very, very interesting.
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Um, this whole only yes means yes uh situation brings up the fact that you know, in the past, you would say she didn't say no, even.
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But her body language, while she was in my bed, you know, you you would read body language a lot, or you would in the past.
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And then that years down the line, you're like, you now start hearing series of words.
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I never told you yes.
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And guys would say, but you came to the house, you stayed in my bed, you didn't push me away.
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In all of this, which brings back now to what you're saying.
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You're saying even when they say yes, you still need to read body language, and a lot of guys now tell you they don't really know what consent is, which is why this conversation is important.
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So, at what point, if yes, even yes is not enough, yeah.
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It has to be a yes that you think is meant.
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I don't know if I'm making sense, but it just feels like a lot of guys will tell you now they don't even know what I think it's a great point.
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It really is.
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It's a great point because one of the conversations that's also evolved from the conversation is how much power is skewed or how much responsibility falls on the man.
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Right.
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So think about when if two people, for example, decide to engage in intercourse and they're both drunk, the power dynamic still skews in favor of the man, where it's like you have more physical power in most cases, so therefore we're going to hold you liable, despite the fact that both people might have been inebriated and affected by the alcohol.
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And then the other side of that as well, I think it's also just with um when you think about dynamics at play.
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I understand that the arguments for enthusiasm because if, for example, you're stronger, or for maybe you run into a girl who's a bit more timid and not able to share things as easily as you might, the onus is on you.
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It has to be on you, especially, I mean, the way society has described like how sexual relationships go down, anyways, for the most part, it would be the man.
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And I understand how difficult it might be, but every time I think about the power dynamics of play, it's just hard for me to not feel for women and like empathize with them in that way.
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What do you think about?
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Because I I think you I agree with you completely.
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Um, the power dynamics definitely skews towards the man.
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Um, I've seen something recently, and I yeah these topics are always very dangerous in mindfield.
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But what do we think about like this?
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Um there have been a few cases recently where the man has been found not guilty of like rape.
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And I had always been on some I believe women, you know, and that's generally where I stand.
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Yeah.
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But there have been a couple of high-profile cases where you know the man was found not guilty, or the woman, I think there was something, there was a girl online who like made something up, made an entirely false accusation up.
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There's been one or two cases that I've seen that kind of, and I'm not really on social media as much as this, but I've seen a couple where it's there's now cause for concern where is there a blanket, like how do we then tackle these situations as a society going forward?
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Because it's it's not as cut and dry as I always thought that it was.
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Yeah.
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So what do you any thoughts on that?
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I think so, you know, which is where I know there was a lot of drama around the compass.
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The incident you're talking about, even sort of cuts Simi in the crosshairs.
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Yeah, in the crosshairs and the crossfires and all of that.
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And you know, um, the argument though, in a lot of women or people who believe, you know, like you said, the power is always cute to men, is one or two of these situations doesn't necessarily invalidate the larger conversation.
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That's true.
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Um, but it because of the kind of times we live in and you know how there's a lot of pushback now from the manosphere uh on conversations like this, moments like this become so amplified that it's now used to sort of blur the entire picture um as a whole.
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But the truth is that all of us are learning, I think, what this content of a thing is.
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Um I think the the one thing everybody should keep at the back of their minds is something he said earlier about, or something we started with about only yes works, right?
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But the yes to has to come from if you if a girl doesn't want to be around you, you kind of know.
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If we're being honest with ourselves, but we also catch ourselves in situations where we either want to score a point, we need to brag about it, ah, that'll give you baby, don't follow now, you know.
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Um, there's also the power dynamic or money dynamic where you feel like, okay, I've paid you or I've paid for your transports.
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Um you should then fulfill the other side of the obligation.
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I've said this a lot on this show about some of these lyrics we hear where, and those lyrics are a reflection of what the reality is.
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When you hear someone say, I put you on a boat to Ilashe, right?
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What did you expect was going to happen in Ilashe?
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That's in the song.
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Yeah, I don't listen to music by the book.
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Yeah, Ruga.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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It's like you've entered the boat to Ilashe, uh-huh.
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Oh, and you know what was saying.
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First of all, do you know where Elasha is?
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Do you know how much boats is?
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It's funny, but these are the things.
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So if this is music and this is a lyric, it means it's it's the norm.
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And people are singing along to it, and you know, and when it came out, to be fair, there was a lot of debate.
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Feminists sort of pushed back on that particular line, like, what are you insinuating?
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Yeah, he didn't really answer anybody, it became a hit song, and everybody just sort of moved on, but it just tells you where people's heads are at.
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That's now at that point, where do you require consent?
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You should, yeah, but this is where a lot of people's heads are at, and it just I guess to just put this in to wrap it up my point, it's basically saying yes should mean yes, but at the same time, we live in a time where there's things that are used to blur the line, and it now just completely deviates from the conversation, like I said, whether it's false accusations.
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Yeah, there are false accusations, but are they overwhelming enough to distract from the actual points?
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There's all of these conversations about sex or whatever, it has been extremely transactional now.
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I guess you can speak more on it.
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But everything is about we don't marry.
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Everything is very transactional.
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You know, I paid for this, I bought you here, I did this, what did you expect?
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You know, so yeah, I don't know if those conversations should be had together or if constant is a separate conversation from all of this.
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There might be.
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But going back to his original, I'll try and get back to it.
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But going back to his original points, I think it's such a like it's a mindful, even as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, I'm making sure that I have my words correct.
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Where it's like, how do you approach the conversation of the possibility of a false accusation?
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The simplistic side of me wants to say everything should be treated on a case-by-case basis, right?
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That's a very simple answer to give.
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However, the waters get very muddy where it's like you have situations where people say, Oh, go to the police, and then the police aren't particularly helpful.
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Especially in Nigeria.
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Especially in Nigeria, they're not particularly helpful, or people ask questions like, What were you wearing, and things of that nature.
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So that kind of makes a case-by-case basis not extremely appealing to the average woman because it's like, look at all the different things that I'm going to have to deal with to just be believed in the first place.
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It's it's not a simple answer.
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I don't think there's a simple answer to define it because I think ultimately, as a man, in as much as you can't compare the despair that comes with being a woman who constantly has to be on her toes and is looking out in public.
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And I heard that a lot of women are constantly looking for escape routes when they go to events, and that's not something that we necessarily deal with.
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At the same time, I don't like that the feeling side of it is completely disregarded as far as a man is concerned.
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Yes, it does not compare.
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If you ever bring a conversation in which sexual abuse is tallied next to how I feel about being potentially accused of something, I'll always lose.
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However, that feeling exists.
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And I'm not saying that you necessarily have to consider it, but it exists.
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So it it it it matters to a degree as long as it exists, you know.
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And that's one of the sides of it that's very tough for me.
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So I don't have the answer.
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Yeah.
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But I do know that there's so many layers to this thing that it's there are many layers, and you know, you you bring up a great point because we don't, you know, it it is a sensitive topic, it's an important one, and we don't want to get it wrong.
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And we're not pretending like we're experts.
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When we said it's an expert, not joking is.
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So I've done quite a bit of advocacy work in like the sexual assault space, gender-based violence, and the victims that we've seen were overwhelmingly female, right?
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Um, there's a fantastic place that um when we were working with the European Union and a place called the Mirabel, Mirabelle Center in the world.
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And they've done a lot of work just supporting survivors of gender-based violence and sexual assault.
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And I remember when we were kind of having conversations with them and just understanding the scale of the problem, at the time, they told us that the oldest survivor that they were working with was a 70-plus-year-old grandmother, and their youngest survivor was a less than one-year-old infant girl who had been assaulted by, I think, an uncle or something like that.
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So when you see that scale and just the extreme like of like violence and crime and just the despicable state of things, you can kind of understand why we say, like, this thing is beyond what did this person wear or not.
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Because what does a grandmother or an infant girl wear that justifies the behavior of some guys?
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The scale was insane.
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It maybe even is so bad.
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Like I've heard horror stories.
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I've even heard horror stories from people that are closer to me that I'm not at liberty to share.
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There's a time somebody that was working with one of the companies that I dealt with, and she was telling me about her husband and what her husband was positioning to do, which made her pick her her daughter and run for their lives from the marriage.
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So it's like, you know, when when we've gotten to that depth, we've sunk to that depth as a society, it's like, okay, we, you know, all guns are, we need it, we need to put everything on the table to try and bring us back to a place of sanity.
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So you talk about you know us not having the answers, and I don't think that's what we're trying to do here.
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Yeah.
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I think sometimes there are certain things that start with hard truths and speaking to your own kind.
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Because you find ladies tell you a lot of times, what do you tell your friends, you know, when you part?
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Because a lot of men trivialize or maybe don't understand how deep some of these things are and how much it is on us to start to have a shift.
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:50.079
I was just trying to go through some data um on all of this, and I want us to get into all of the cultural nuances that come with it, um, peer pressure, um, and things along those lines.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:56.799
Now, the Federal Ministry of Women Affairs um did a study that was very, very interesting.
00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.240
So here's what they found.
00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:07.440
First of all, one in three Nigerian women have been sexually have had sexual violence methods.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.200
One in three, thirty-three percent.
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:10.480
Oh wow.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.200
Although there's a lot of underreporting, yeah.
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:22.400
So if there's a hundred million Nigerian women, 30 million have had some kind of experience, which is really wild to me.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:30.160
Another study, this was even from an international organization, found that 37%.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:42.240
So they did a study of over 30,000 students in Nigerian universities, and 37% of Nigerian students have experienced sexual violence in universities.
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:58.960
And that's why I brought up peer pressure because even I growing up and you're in school in Nigeria, for those of us that schooled here, you find certain conversations come at a certain age where you are seen as, okay, you're now becoming a man.
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:00.960
How do you show that you are?
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.920
How do you express that masculinity or manliness?
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.599
How many people have you slept with?
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.240
Yeah, your body counts has to be a certain number.
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.799
Even in that body count, what kind of girl have you also slept with?
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:20.480
So is it this girl that nobody really rates, or is this other babe that is Oma?
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.000
You mean you got that girl?
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.079
So there's also ego attached to it.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.359
So you find people who lie and say, Wow, sometimes they catch it.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.640
You find this guy, you know, get game like definitely lied.
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.200
But I I definitely lie.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:40.000
I'm not even going to say what your body can't be high, or you need to drop certain names, and then listen, like, oh boy, they're not me.
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:54.720
You know, people have those things, but there are people who also not go the extra mile to actually basically sexually assault people because they want to have a story to tell, or because their friends have told them they did it and got away with it.
00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.880
And you are that age where they tell you your frontal lobe is not fully formed until you're 25.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:02.400
People are highly impressionable whether you like it or not, in university.
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:08.079
That 18 to 23 age range, you're trying to prove whatever it is you're trying to prove.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.680
So and it's that demographic that I feel like needs to understand.
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:25.759
I mean, we say rightfully as that young people are have opened our eyes up to what this thing is, but they're also the most susceptible to the manosphere.
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:26.000
Yeah.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:26.400
Yeah.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.720
And this podcast culture of take what is yours, even if it's a woman.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:31.440
Phew.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:32.079
Jesus.
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:43.759
You know, and so then there's also the cultural angle to it, where a lot of our traditions, our cultures place the man on a certain pedestal.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:44.079
Yeah.
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.599
Where we have mostly very patriarchal societies in this country.
00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:53.599
It's why polygamy is almost accepted in virtually every culture in Nigeria.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:56.640
Yes, religion has made that shift.
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.839
You hardly find many religions where women can marry multiple men, it's always the other.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.880
Way around, yeah.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:09.279
So the man owns the woman in certain places for a long time, up until recently, certain things couldn't be done by women, besides until the man approves.
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.759
So we have this cultural mindset.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.920
So, with that in mind, how dare a woman tell you no?
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:17.680
Is the belief.
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:23.119
It's like, how what do you mean I want this and you're telling me no?
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.440
The one that blows people's minds now the most, which is the conversation that is even still happening now.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.480
I see that on Twitter a lot recently, is marital rape.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:41.519
A lot of guys cannot, for the life of them, understand that a woman I married, no, a woman I paid for is not in the mood, and you tell me I should leave her.
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:47.119
So the the mental shifts is the game is long.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:47.759
It's what I'm saying.
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.319
The work is long, it's hard.
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.400
There's a lot that still needs to change.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:59.599
It's cultural, there's peer pressure, there's the internet now feeding you things about what a man should be.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.160
There's your ego involved.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:09.119
And unfortunately, because even globally, internationally, rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:09.920
Yeah.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.000
It's also one of the most underreported because there's a lot of shame attached to it.
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.880
So most times men get away with it.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.279
So for them, it's like, I will do it anyway because I'll probably get away with it.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:26.720
Then you find people who come out maybe six, seven years later because they are braver now and they say what happened to them.
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.119
There's now the burden of, well, how do we believe you?
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:29.839
Yeah.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.119
It's not, there's no scar to show.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:33.440
Yeah.
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.599
There's no proof of what was stolen.
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:38.000
It makes it very hard to prove anything.
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:38.400
Yeah.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.759
Um ultimately the honest is on men.
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:42.000
Yeah.
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:49.279
Like you said, we're not here to change the world instantly, but we need to start telling ourselves the truth about certain things.
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:55.920
We're gonna go into later the flip side of it where men are also sexually harassed in Nigeria.
00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:02.160
We touched on it a bit in one of our former episodes with IK and uh Murewa and all of them.
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.599
I have a quick question, if you don't mind.
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:05.119
Yeah, we'll get to that.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:10.319
Just say what it also does mentally, where boys are molested, but it's celebrated.
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:11.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.240
That's against so it's also it's all here.
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:14.480
Yeah.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:16.559
Ah, my house helped rape me at nine.
00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:17.680
Oh, are you serious?
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:19.279
Ah, you don't did job since then.
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:20.559
Is the reply?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.440
It's not even seen as a problem.
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:24.799
Yeah, sorry, go on.
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:34.079
Um, so something I've always thought about because when when conversations come up on social media and women say things like, you should have these conversations with your friend.
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:43.039
For the most part, with my immediate friend group, like the men in my life, they're very curated because I'm very strict.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.799
I have way more female friends than I do male friends because I feel like it's just easier.
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:58.400
The likelihood of me ever hearing questionable stuff from my female friends is significantly lower, such that when I meet new guys, it's like I you're jumping through hoops, man.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.559
Because I can't I I need somebody that I can vouch for.
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:01.599
Do you know what I mean?
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:12.160
So with that, I'm pretty much, I'm not saying conclusively, but in my immediate circle, there are no people to really have those conversations with.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:16.079
And if I was going to have those conversations, we'll pretty much be on the same page.
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:29.519
So then how does a person like me, and I'm also opening this up to you as well, because I imagine that you have your close male friend groups as well, how then do we, I guess, advocate better in those types of relationships?
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:34.160
Because with me, the second I even hear that you're questionable, there's just an X on you.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.640
You just notice that we're speaking less, we're hanging around less.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:42.079
If somebody comes and reports you to meet, yeah, our relationship is terminated, or it will die a slow death.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:46.799
So I wonder how then, what what is the avenue for people who are curating their groups?
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:53.119
So people who hold themselves to a higher standard to then advocate with men or just in, I don't know, have conversations.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:00.480
Yeah, I think you bring up a good point because the age old saying is that birds of a feather flock together, right?
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:06.720
So your circle of people around you tolerate for the most part will be what you tolerate.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:16.640
You might have similar systems of value, you know, you may not agree on everything, but at least you'll be trying to pull in the same direction.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:23.599
So, how to then advocate beyond the people that are already in line with your thinking becomes the question.
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:29.119
I think that's probably where a platform like this comes, you know, come becomes important.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:39.599
You know, I've had situations where I'm walking about and they're telling me, oh, I make my sons sit down and watch Mentality with Ebuka or me and my guys go together and we watch the show.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:54.640
I think we've entered an era where it's starting to dawn on us that we've left these conversations sometimes to not the wise, the loudest voices in the room, but not the wisest ones.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:00.160
And so you have the manosphere conversations being dictated by certain kind of thinking.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:09.279
And the danger with that is that there's a whole generation of young men who that's what they're getting their education about what it means to be a man from.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:30.079
Whereas there are enough of us who we've made our mistakes, we're not perfect, we've we've we've had bad decisions, but we've learned from those things, and we're at least trying to build back better, but we're not having these conversations enough where people can listen in and say, Oh, you know, I learned something today and I can I can adjust the way that I move.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:44.079
So I think for me, you know, the more of these kinds of shows and using the media to kind of put these narratives out there, the better it will be for the generations that are coming after us.
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:53.519
Um my worldview is shaped, and you know, the people know this about me by now, my worldview is shaped largely by my faith.
00:27:53.920 --> 00:28:02.799
And in coming, taking those steps of faith, you start to unlearn things that you've learned about what it means to be a man, right?
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:21.680
So growing up, you hear things like like Ebuka was saying, you know, uh, how many women have you slept with, or you know, you had a sexual experience at 11 years old, and you know, you are the guy amongst your guys, and those things plant seeds in your mind as to what being a man means.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:39.200
And then you you you know, you come into the faith, and the faith teaches you that self-control is a fruit of the spirit, and that true strength is not getting other people to submit to you, it's gaining mastery over yourself and being able to be disciplined and being able to make the right decisions for yourself.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:46.720
And that is a whole journey of unlearning things that have been implanted in you from when you were a child.
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:52.000
Yeah, you know, so that's been the journey that some of us have been on.
00:28:52.160 --> 00:29:01.359
But I think the more that we can have conversations to be like, you know, and we had a conversation on one other episode about showing scars, right?
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:09.599
Because a lot of times people look at people who have reached a certain level of success or a certain stature in society, and you just Oh, this is the gloss.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:11.519
You just see the gloss, you just see the win.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:20.640
Yeah, you don't see that this person has gone through certain things and made certain choices and dealt with certain demons and has now come out on the other side of that.
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:32.480
And while I understand the need to protect wounds because wounds are still things that you are healing from, when it has gotten past the point of a wound, too, it's now a scar.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.279
So it's evidence that there was a wound at some point, but it's also evidence of hey, I said evidence.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:39.359
My robust side is strong.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:44.480
Oh, it's also evidence that you've a scar is also evidence that you've healed.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:44.720
Yeah.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.319
And that there's a story to tell.
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:46.640
Yeah.
00:29:46.880 --> 00:30:01.359
And I think maybe we could do more to show our scars and say, you know, I, you know, I and even there, there's a there's a worry that's in showing those scars, you know, are you opening yourself up to being dragged by by the internet?
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:02.319
Yeah, that part.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.519
That's okay, go.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:05.599
Yeah, that's that's what I wanted to touch on as well.
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:18.079
Because when you were talking about how we how we contribute to this conversation, the truth is, yes, we all kind of, by the grace of God, find ourselves in circles where we don't have to preach that.
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:21.039
So the honors is now on us to speak in certain spaces.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:22.400
Yes, on social media.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:27.440
And the truth is, I mean, even on this show, with the episode I've come out, people have gyms.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:29.599
We have seen comments on our YouTube calling us simps.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.319
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:40.160
So when you are the guy who's not throwing that sort of extreme right wing line, yeah, and I beggie.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:48.079
So you also should also know that that's going to be the feedback you get for just saying what you believe in and saying what you think is is right.
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.599
But uh, another data I wanted to push with that as well.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:58.640
So I saw here it's it's a PMC um data from the American Library of Medicine.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.759
They did a review here in Nigeria, okay, which was very interesting.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:08.160
And they said in the last five years, I want to be sure what year this was done, so I know what five years is 2023.
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:19.039
So I guess that's from 2018 to 2023, as I when it was done, online conversation about consent grew by 72,000 percent.
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:24.640
Wow, so what I think that is is, and conversations can't be had in a silo.
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.440
You're not just talking about it's good to rip.
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.920
It means there's it means there's back and forth.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:35.200
Yeah, and I think that's healthy for whatever it is.
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:36.640
It means at least people are having conversations.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:42.880
72,000 is a huge and astronomical difference to the fact that maybe people were never talking about these things before.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:48.319
Now, what kind of conversations are being had is a whole other you know, talk on its own.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.319
And I like what you mentioned about you know people coming up to you to talk about this.
00:31:52.640 --> 00:32:04.799
I think the I'm not saying the fight is lost with older older people, but we all know that it's easier to teach kids than to correct men, or to teach boys and correct men.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:11.759
Yeah, and I always tell that to parents now if you have a child who's still impressionable, this is the time.
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:15.119
Yeah, because a lot of who you are, did you today is because of how you were shaped.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:15.599
Absolutely.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:24.079
Yes, you are still doing the hard work, but it's because of what's or where you came from and the kind of you know how you were shaped as a young man.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:29.359
It's harder to get a man now in his 30s or 40s to say stop this thing.
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.599
They might stop it, but do they think it's wrong?
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:34.079
Yeah, is a whole other conversation.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:39.039
So I think the honest now is on okay, there's still a future that we can secure.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:49.519
Those of us who have boys or those of us who have nephews or friends, or even those of us that have girls who have girls as well, have those conversations and start to shape their minds to know what is right or wrong.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:50.160
So interesting.
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:56.720
Okay, no, I was just gonna say something real quick on what you just said about now being in a position where we're the parents.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:57.920
Who made us parents?
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.319
Like, first of all, it's like a joke.
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:02.400
This is like we're the parents now.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.640
Um, we're not serious, anyway.
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:26.240
Um, but it's it's a thing where it's like I was listening to uh my pastor, Pastor Stephen Chandler, was teaching a message about parenting, and somebody asked a question, and they said, How do you know at what point to have these hard conversations about like sex and you know what when do you have the those?
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.039
Because in our time, they we didn't even have the conversation.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:34.079
You forgot to or they had very soft conversations, yeah.
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:35.920
And he said something that I thought was very wise.
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:44.559
He said, There's no like one size fits all response as to when to teach to have the sex conversations with your child.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:51.440
You just have to make sure that you have the conversation with them before the world does, which I thought was very powerful.
00:33:51.519 --> 00:34:05.279
Because I have a five-year-old son now, and one, I don't want him to wrestle with the demons that I did, but I also don't want him to discover the demons that are out there based on what the world might try to feed him.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.039
So I'm constantly thinking about my wife and I are constantly thinking about okay, when do we?
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:13.599
So we've had conversations about like your what are your private parts, don't let anybody touch this.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.000
You can always come to mama and papa about anything.
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:38.400
Yeah, but we're gauging, like based on what we see him talk about and all of that, to know when is the right moments to be like, let's sit down and have because those things are happening earlier, you know, and in our time, you know, God bless our parents, they did the best they could, but a lot of people had sexual experiences very early as children.
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:40.480
Yes, especially, I mean, I don't know.
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:43.760
Um I speak for guys because I know a lot of guys' stories.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:52.880
It was a nanny or a house help or an auntie or a cousin, a cousin, or an older girl in the school who was in SS3 and you're in JS1 or JS2.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:01.920
So, you know, now that we're this much more aware, how how do you and and I'm also asking you because your kids are a little older than mine.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.639
Like, have you already had the sex conversation?
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:05.679
Or when do you know?
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.639
So, like you said, it's not you don't wait for a time.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:12.079
There are phases, like you've had the private part conversation with your son.
00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.480
There are phases to things, right?
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:20.239
In another two years, there's girlfriend conversations happening in your son's class already, I can assure you.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:21.920
From like year one, year two.
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.679
It's like jokes.
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:27.679
My daughter is in her fourth year.
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.079
I know those conversations have already been had.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:37.760
And once you kind of know or notice it, you have to have the conversation, okay, this is what this means.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:45.360
You might not necessarily go deep into like sex at that point, but now they are starting to figure out boys and girls and what that looks like.
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:53.760
So my point just basically being it's not a one-time thing to at each point you know what needs to be said or addressed.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.880
Like I said in my daughter's class, there's I mean, nothing crazy has happened, at least to my knowledge.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.480
But we've heard there was a time someone sent someone to come and tell someone no that I he likes her.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.639
You know, things like that, you're just like, hmm.
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:13.519
Yeah, this is getting there already, right?
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.079
And you have to start.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.960
And I, for example, went to secondary school at 10.
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:21.760
My daughter is going to be 10 this year, and we know what happens in secondary school.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:22.000
Yeah.
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.920
So you're now wondering, okay, is it really time now to go in on this conversation?
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.039
But I've had a conversation with her about boys, okay.
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:40.719
And why it's not a bad thing to have male friends, but where the line is and when it's now time to call mommy, if you're more comfortable talking to mommy or daddy.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:46.719
But someone has to know if it's in school and someone says something, because now we're still dealing with what is said, not necessarily what is done.
00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.719
Yeah, this teacher is there first.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.119
That's the first person you need to report to.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:37:03.039
And I guess it's the same with you, but building a relationship with your kids where they can come and talk, they actually tell you things, yeah, and it's learning not to be jarred by what you can't show that reaction.
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.880
Um something, something else to like.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.360
They just tell you, they'll be like, Oh, okay.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:10.960
So, when was that?
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:16.400
When they're not going to be like, Jesus, you're not discreeting to your wife, like men.
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:18.639
How old are these people again?
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:22.239
But they tell you because once you react, they know that there's something wrong.
00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.239
And then they are now next time.
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:27.280
And I have one of my kids is very perceptive.
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:36.400
She's telling you things that she's watching to see so the next time she either doesn't tell you or she waters it down because she thinks it means she's in trouble.
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:42.079
Uh yeah, as the games are what she's saying is what you're trying to like, you know, it's not you.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.039
Yeah, so yeah, just you have to just keep this, it's very hard.
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:45.679
Wow.
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:47.679
Something else that I was going to add to that.
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:54.400
I actually saw this on the timeline recently, which is why, like, as a knowing as a resource that Twitter is also extremely useful.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:58.960
Um, it was a lady who was talking about the private part conversation that you guys brought up.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:09.679
And her stance on it was that even that conversation itself needs to evolve, where it's like it's not just a private part conversation, it's a boundaries conversation, period point blank.
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.880
Because the way that she noted it.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.719
That was the first conversation we had, actually, boundaries.
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:13.119
Yeah.
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:27.119
Like, and the way that she noted it, and it made so much sense was that that sort of abuse or assault does not start from private parts, it starts from a hold on the shoulder that lingers a little too long, yeah, a hand on the back.
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:38.000
You know, so I think added to that conversation is also the need for, I guess, parents to be malleable, or it's like you can't be so rigid on what you think is the approach.
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:38.480
Yeah.
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.679
Because, yeah, like she said, it's not just private parts.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.360
It's like, why is he holding your hand that way?
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.239
Why is he robbing like that thing that people would do back in the day?
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:49.840
Like, there's so many different layers to that conversation as well, you know.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.400
Yeah, credit to my wife because she's she's I think she's really wise in these things.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:39:07.360
Because when we've had those conversations, she she like progressed it beyond just these are the private parts, but to this idea of like boundaries and things that make you feel uncomfortable.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:14.800
And if anybody, you know, touches you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, this is what to do, this is what to say, this is who to come to.
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:18.400
And it's just it's tricky, man, because we're the parents now.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:19.519
You know, we are.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:36.400
I mean, you know, I know I don't I don't want to, my parents are amazing, you know, but coming up, like we didn't have those conversations like that, you know, and I think they even had less, you know what I mean?
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:46.320
Like, at least my mom at one point called me and my brothers, sat everybody down, and put a video on where like somebody got pregnant, somebody got A's, everybody died.
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:51.199
Like, it was just this like horror story, and then she was like, You understand what happened?
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.400
I get it, don't touch anybody, don't do anything.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:02.719
But you could see that they were trying with the limited tools that they're not comfortable comfortable.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.599
My mom, my mom is a nurse, so she works in the medical field.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.800
You would expect that they would be able to she was a matron.
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.840
These are people that it was in one sentence.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:16.880
I was going to university, so I'll finish secondary school where I could have probably had 600 babies.
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.199
Going to the unit, she's like, Don't go and bring anybody pregnant.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.400
Basically, she was it was a condom conversation.
00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:27.360
Use condoms, you can't bring any children back home.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:29.679
It was basically it, but it kind of stuck with me.
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:30.880
It worked, I won't lie.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:37.360
Because condom first, but that was it, yeah.
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:43.760
And I keep thinking back if I was this guy who I was 16 already at that time.
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:45.840
People get sexually active.
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:50.320
Yeah, sometimes seven years before that, anything could have happened.
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:57.920
So there was a video, wasn't there like a thing where these kids went on a trip, what some secondary school in Lagos?
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:05.199
They went on a trip, yeah, and they there was like a video that was that the kids was recording like they were teenagers, they weren't even 16.
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.880
I've I've I've heard of I heard of something like that.
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:17.199
School in Lagos where tapes licked, yeah, and they were sort of distributing it amongst themselves, like students, and this was like SS1.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:19.679
Yeah, like 14 to 15 students, yeah.
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:24.320
They're about yeah, it feels like for this next generation, fear is not a good enough detail.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:26.800
No, it really is, though.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:37.199
I think, at least from me growing up, like that conversation, those types of things, they scared you straight to a degree where even if you were curious, there was like that disincentive at the back of your head.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.639
But like this next generation is far more curious than I'm thinking.
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:47.119
I think ultimately, which is what I think by the grace of God I kind of have for now.
00:41:48.239 --> 00:42:08.800
So we are not necessarily having a fear conversation, but you're instilling in your kids the need to be afraid of coming back home with certain stories or situations, like the consequences because what those conversations did to us is uh you're afraid of you don't want to disgrace your family, is how we say it in Nigeria.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:14.800
So generally, you want to put that in your kids' minds with everything.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:24.480
I didn't let me not disgrace these people, yeah, as against it being about just sex, so it's yeah, all encompassing, yeah, and that sort of helps.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:33.760
So even when you're having a sex conversation, I'm not actually saying if you Gary Bellet, but you are they already kind of know that, okay, we don't do that here, yeah.
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:40.480
And when we're talking, I was trying to look at how you have conversations with kids.
00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:50.480
Um and well, I think I'm kind of on track, but let's just put it in context two to six years old start with body autonomy conversations.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:52.960
So that's what we talk about boundaries, right?
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:57.760
Okay, for a girl, this is this, don't let anybody touch you here.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:58.880
Your body belongs to you.
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:00.320
And I think we've had that conversation.
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.079
I guess that's what you say you've done as well.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.679
Five to ten is now where you start talking about you know, you ask a lot and listen.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.639
And I think I did that a lot as well, because that's when you're not trying to discover, like you said, what has he heard?
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:13.440
What does he know?
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:14.480
What does she know?
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:18.880
What is being said in their school at this point or amongst their friends?
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:23.920
But then from seven, you introduce emotions and empathy.
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:30.480
So it's basically even if it's not them, if they see something being done, what's their reaction?
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:35.119
Are they incentivized to do it, or do they speak up?
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.480
Or do they and that's where the reporting also comes into that?
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.119
And my daughter, I think, has done that a few times when they come back and say, Oh, this person did this to this person.
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:44.400
Oh, so what happened?
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:45.679
Oh, we now told the teacher.
00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:47.280
So you know that okay, okay.
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:51.760
There's something at least you know, there's some sense in what they're doing.
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:58.159
The fourth step now from nine to their teens is digital consent, which is what I want us to get into now.
00:43:58.559 --> 00:43:59.440
Digital consent, yes.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:28.880
And it's the whole thing, even with older people, digital consent, sexting, harassing people on social media, um, revenge porn, where you lick people's nudes just because you know all of these uh phases now, and that's more prevalent now, I guess with even the younger generation, because we don't, I mean, we didn't grow up needing to do that by the grace of God, but it happens now where you know you DM someone and you almost feel like, oh, you don't want to answer me, I'll be I'm going to lick our DMs or whatever it is.
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:38.960
And yeah, if people don't think that's sexual harassment, because I've never even met this person, or we didn't even have anything physical, but apparently digitally, it's a thing now.
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:44.159
People go to jail for it for how you interact with um with people online.
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:54.719
And I know I don't know if this is also now a man versus woman conversation still, um, and who is more guilty of that, but it is a thing, yeah.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:45:07.119
And you find, and it's apparently even most responsible for suicide in women than physical harassment because the fear of the unknown, because because of what the internet is, yeah.
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:22.559
If someone threatens you on the internet, you're already picturing the whole world is about to find out this thing, and the impact is felt deeper than if something happened to me here and I feel like I can sort of block it out, if you know what I mean.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:25.119
Yeah, so it's probably even more a danger, apparently.
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:30.239
And I don't know, I don't know how to address that conversation, but it's a thing, is basically what I'm saying.
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.880
Very random thing that I've been thinking about for a while.
00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:40.800
As parents, would you be open to your schools, the schools that your children attend, having social media etiquette classes?
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:45.840
Because I feel like the older that we get, I feel like there's no getting around it.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.880
Because, and we had this conversation in the back room.
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:55.280
When social media originated, it was like this very new terrain that nobody really had any great understanding of.
00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:57.519
And as such, people took liberties.
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:02.159
This was the first time they were in a place where your parents didn't really have any real access, they didn't really care.
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.320
So people made all sorts of crazy jokes.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:14.079
I mean, the dude who was the fintech guy who got like removed from the company because he had lots of wild jokes, as much as that was crazy, that was the terrain.
00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:15.599
That was the terrain.
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:27.199
So I'm wondering if outside of even just having the conversations at parent as parents, if that's probably something that should be entrenched into the curriculum, because ah man, it's that's the world that they're going into.
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.639
Yeah, I think I think you're right.
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:36.079
I think I think schools will have to evolve with the times and address more than they traditionally talk about.
00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:37.519
So they don't have sex education.
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:45.920
Well, no, sex education, but he's even talking about like social media, like social media etiquette, morality, how to handle it, how to navigate that space.
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.639
I think it's it is necessary for the schools.
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:56.639
But I also think that just like with the sex conversation, my kids should hear about it from me first.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:03.039
Fair before the school does, because I don't know what the school is going to teach, and I don't know to what level.
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:09.199
And I don't want the school to be the first to plant certain seeds in my children's minds.
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:19.440
So I want them to hear about sex from me first, to hear about social media from me first, to hear about whatever it is, like the home is like the first line of defense.
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:19.840
Yeah.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:40.320
Um, and if I do a good enough job, if we do a good enough job as parents, then the school should be able to hopefully add to that conversation, but not leave, not initiate it and leave questions in their minds that they're now, like you said, trying to gauge whether you're curious about it and also gauge how much of this is okay to discuss with papa or mama.
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:42.559
Like, you know, am I going to get into trouble?
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:43.760
I have questions about this.
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:49.440
Like, we should have already put it on the table before this school comes to dress it up.
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:49.760
Yeah.
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.039
So, but I do think that schools absolutely listen.
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.440
We've been teaching kids the same way for hundreds of years.
00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:58.000
Yeah.
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:02.719
Hundreds of years, it's been the same, and the world has changed so much in that time, you know.
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:05.599
So and kids now are very aware of a lot of things.
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:06.559
Yeah, they are.
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:07.679
The world, man, listen.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.199
If your son came to you now, sorry to put it please.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:11.760
Go ahead.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:15.039
Six years old, five, but yeah.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:16.079
Yeah, I'm saying.
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:17.440
Don't rush me.
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:20.000
What's a virgin?
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:20.880
Oof.
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:21.840
Dr.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:22.400
GPT.
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:23.760
Did you say the first time you really did?
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.159
Dr.
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.800
GPT, how does um and this is how just blots it out.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:31.519
And we've never even had the nope, it just came.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:32.719
What's a virgin?
00:48:32.960 --> 00:48:33.199
Yeah.
00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:53.280
Okay, I'll I would I would first start by trying to explain in a way that he can understand what sex is, and that means it's a failure on me because I haven't already, he's already having those questions and I haven't had that conversation.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:49:08.880
But I'd I'd first have to try and set the table that there's a thing that grown-ups do, you know, that mama and papa did, that, you know, when two people are married because we're Christian, only we're married and we love each other.
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:13.039
Um, you know, there's a way that we be, you know, we get physical and intimate with each other.
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:14.000
I wouldn't use those words.
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:16.639
I need to go and do some walks to prepare myself.
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:24.960
But I would first try to set that tone and then say, you know, then you now explain what you know what a virgin is on top of that.
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:30.400
It's and I'm I know that I'm getting to that place with Zaire because he's five.
00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:43.840
And he's asking more and more just intelligent questions, yeah, intellectual questions, and you now need to discover as a parent how do I explain this in a way that he can grasp.
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:46.559
And that's really the phase that I'm in now.
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:48.480
And he's coming with those questions every other day.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:52.800
The thing about the questions at those ages is it's not one question.
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:54.000
And it's like, why?
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:54.960
Plenty of follow-ups.
00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:55.199
Yeah.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:58.800
So what I what I've because that happened to me.
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:00.239
They asked you what a virgin was?
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:01.280
Please tell me what's right.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:05.760
So that's how I wanted it worked, but I just want to help out.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:06.559
Tell me, give me a chance.
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:12.559
Now my kid was six, I just comes into the living room and blots out the same way I said it, Daddy.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:13.519
What is a virgin?
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:17.119
So now I had this, I heaved.
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:22.000
What I do, which maybe might help other people.
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:24.480
I was my first instinct is to ask a question.
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:25.360
Where did you hear that?
00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:26.320
That's what I first do.
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:35.599
Yeah, that helps me because if you heard it in if a boy is so I said, Where did you hear that?
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:37.920
Because I'm not trying to get context.
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:41.440
Now, at the time she had just started catechism because she's trying to get first holy communion.
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:56.320
I'm Catholic, and we go to these catechism classes to learn about the church before you get and uh talks about the Virgin Mary, and she was trying to understand why the she was qualified with the word virgin, and I said, Did you ask the teacher?
00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:58.960
She was like, No, and I said, Okay.
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:04.000
Um, so I use so here's for me, she's six, right?
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.920
There's only so much she can take on she can take on at a time.
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:10.559
Sorry, if you know the way my heart is beating, right?
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:13.039
Yeah, so I didn't hang in on everyone.
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:23.679
I went down the route of Mary being pure and being chosen by God to be Jesus' mother, okay, and that's what virginity in that context means.
00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:40.159
Ah, so you didn't even go into I didn't go into the sexuality of it, but I still said but God is Jesus' father, and God put Jesus in Mary's belly because she was pure.
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:43.840
There was the way I phrased it, but then her follow-up was phrased it.
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:46.400
I did try and learn her follow-up was now.
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:52.480
I think I qualified also saying unlike where daddy and mommy make a baby.
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:54.000
I said something along those lines.
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:56.559
This happened a few while ago, so I'm not really guessing the age.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:02.079
And I remember her saying, Oh, how do daddy and mommy make a baby?
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.920
And that's when I said, Have you said, No, I didn't say go to your room.
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.519
I was like, you won't.
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:19.039
I said if I explain this, you won't really understand it, but you're gonna get to a point where you will do a subject called biology and it will be explained to you better.
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:29.199
But yes, daddy and mommy make a baby, and it's for adults, it's an adult thing, but she understood virginity in the context of purity.
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:33.840
And I was okay with that.
00:52:33.920 --> 00:53:04.320
Now, why I remembered it is she's she's nine now, and she remembered that conversation is and she was like, Oh, that's when she saw the word again, she now remembered what I told her that virginity is, and now we've had a little more context around sex, and like you now said, you were going to tell your son about just marriage and keeping yourself on marriage, she now knows that you stay a virgin till marriage.
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:08.480
But at the time, because she was too young, I couldn't go into all of that, you know.
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:14.000
But what it helped with was that by the time she saw by the time she saw the world, she now knew a series of interesting.
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:21.199
It's a very but my so that's why I said you also have to be very intentional with how you approach kids now.
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:29.599
They don't ask one question, they're gonna follow you up, and once you start getting flustered, they can just like uh this one no show, it's like daddy.
00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:33.599
It's a very complex.
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:36.159
I want to get parenting right, I really do.
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:38.719
Yeah, is that I want to get parenting right.
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:39.840
I don't think we all do.
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:43.360
We try, we do our best, we do our best, yeah.
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:44.719
But it's it's very hard.
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:46.079
Yeah, we can only do our best.
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:46.800
We can't relate.
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:50.159
Sorry, we don't hit on it, I'm not gonna kill.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:51.039
I love it.
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:55.840
I love it because these are conversations that I'm starting to have myself, and I think about it constantly.
00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:05.280
Yeah, and funny enough, with my generation, it's really important to hear from you guys because there's a heavy, and I'm going to call it spirits because I'm also Christian and I think everything is a spirit.
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:10.159
There's a heavy spirit of inadequacy that a lot of younger men feel.
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.559
There was a tweet that I saw a couple weeks ago where some guys said, nothing for this life will make go.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:15.119
What do you say?
00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:18.880
How do you say nothing this life will make me bumpy kin, essentially is what you say.
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:19.199
Really?
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:27.119
And I know that that definitely comes from a place of inadequacy where you look at the economy, yeah, and you look at all the different sacrifices that you might need to make and you think it's not worth it.
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:30.800
So just hearing you guys like actually go through it is always helpful.
00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:40.639
Yeah, I was listening to um somebody I respect a lot, and he was talking about the things that we need to instill in our kids when they're very young.
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:57.519
And there's a scripture in um in the Bible that says when Jesus was getting baptized by John and it says, you know, God said, This is my beloved, no, this is my son, who I love, in whom I am well pleased.
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:11.519
And sometimes I read things and I skip past it, but then I I've now understood it to mean that that statement alone tells you the three things that you are supposed to do as a parent.
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:14.079
So this is my son speaks to identity.
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:18.400
Okay, so you're instilling in your child this is who you are.
00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:21.760
You're my son or you're my daughter, this is your identity.
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:23.920
This is you know, giving them that sense of identity.
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.119
And then whom I love is giving them that affection and that love.
00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:29.280
You are loved, I love you, regardless.
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:38.880
Jesus hadn't done anything in his ministry, and God was affirming his love for him, and then giving them validation and affirmation to say, I'm pleased with you.
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:46.639
It's not a you know, you don't earn my approval, you know, like you don't have to have achieved anything in life before you already have that foundation.
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:47.519
It's the foundation.
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:55.679
And I think that, like you say, so many people are struggling with feeling inadequate, which some of that is just the economics of the time.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:02.079
But I think we have a responsibility to instill those things in our children right from the get-go.
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:05.840
So they have that sense of self-worth and esteem.
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:09.039
And even that plays into these conversations, right?
00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:31.119
This thing about consent and sex, and you know, we're raising daughters and sons, and at some point they're going to be faced with situations where if they don't have that sense of self of this is who I am, this is who God made me to be, these are my parents, this is my family, and I'm made for more than just this moment, right?
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:37.280
Then then, you know, there are cracks on the inside that somebody, a predator can exploit, you know.
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:42.719
So so hopefully we do a good enough job where we're able to instill those things in them.
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.239
Anyway, before we go, I just wanted to have our live original moments.
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:48.400
I got this message from Digi, not you actually.
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:51.519
Not this Digi.
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:52.800
It's from a Deiji.
00:56:54.079 --> 00:57:01.440
It says I realized that sometimes I I didn't ask for consent because I was afraid of looking weak or unsure of myself.
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.239
Wow.
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:08.639
How can I make vulnerability and asking permission feel like a strength as a Nigerian man?
00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:15.519
That is a very yeah, and that's what I mentioned before about the ego.
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:44.159
And that is what honestly I feel drives a lot of this for men, where it's tied to whether it's the conversations you're having or how you feel about yourself, yeah, that I've conquered is not a conquest, it's not, and no, does not deflate that ego, yeah, but a lot of men type getting a girl or having sex to what I've been able to achieve or a conquest.
00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:50.800
And I don't know, I don't know how to answer that question because how do you turn it to a strength is his question.
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.280
I don't know if you can pastorally help us.
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:59.280
I don't know about turning it to a strength, but for me, even if I don't turn it to a strength, I don't see it as a weakness.
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:06.880
So I think I think you just answered it there because I think what we're looking at is a mindset issue.
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:11.760
Not in other words, it's not a weakness in the first place.
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:17.440
And the fact that somebody's mind may see it as a weakness is is the actual problem.
00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:25.840
Because desire is human, but dignity comes first, honor comes first, you know.
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:32.559
That so it's really a question of why do you see it as a weakness in the first place?
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:49.280
So to Deiji, I think it's uh it's it's unlearning uh this idea that being vulnerable, being respectful, being you know, cautious about your interactions is a weakness because it's not, it's actually strength.
00:58:49.360 --> 00:59:01.199
Like it's it's strength to be uh measured, it takes like that's what true strength is is to be able to control yourself, to be measured, to be thoughtful about the decisions that you are making.
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:03.039
You say I should address it pastorally.
00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:18.639
The best way that I can address it pastorally is this when Christ was being uh um beaten, you know, insulted, wounded, in you know, just ridiculed on his way to the cross.
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:22.480
The only thing that they asked him, Are you the Messiah?
00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:23.360
He said yes.
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:27.519
From that point till he hung on the cross, he didn't utter another word.
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:41.599
And it's not from lack of provocation, it's not from lack of being in a situation where he could have said or done so many other things, but he chose meekness, which tells me that meekness is not weakness, meekness is strength.
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:51.840
It takes strength to hold your tongue, it takes strength to hold your body, it takes strength to choose to be measured in situations that you could be all over the place.
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:58.000
So I think for him, it's a mindset about what true strength really means.
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:10.960
And once you understand what true strength really means, then it's easier to pick the strong response in any of these kinds of scenarios, and that's the way that I've addressed it.
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:14.960
You address it musically with an S.
01:00:17.119 --> 01:00:21.440
I think similar to Banky, for me, the first thing that came up was it's an orientation issue.
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:37.280
Um, I also think that so for me, even just tying to, and I've had this conversation a lot in the last couple years, my understanding of what love is, right, is formed also by faith, which is sacrifice.
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:39.119
Like love is self-sacrificial.
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:50.800
Um if you're acting in love, especially if it's a person that you're supposed to be, you're supposed to, I guess you're trying to have sex with or whatever the case may be.
01:00:51.519 --> 01:00:54.639
I feel like your ego can't be that great.
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:59.440
I honestly it can't be that great of a consideration, but it shouldn't be that great of a consideration.
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:22.960
Sex as an ego-driven activity kind of is already dead on arrival because the ability to possibly satisfy another person as well already just kind of helps you just shelf whatever ego it is that you have such that if they're saying you're not good at this or this isn't working, you can take it in stride and not feel like, how dare you! I've been doing this style for 50 years.
01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:30.559
I'm just being on that note.
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:32.960
I'm just being for real.
01:01:33.039 --> 01:01:39.599
Like there's a natural ego that you're not even allowed to bring in in the first place, otherwise, you're going to mess up.
01:01:39.679 --> 01:01:41.360
That's just the best way that I can think about it.
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:48.639
So your brain has to just naturally start to divorce the idea of sex from ego, and then possibly you can proceed from it.
01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:51.760
That's a very big one, and I think that honestly wraps it up.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:56.320
Divorcing sex from ego, hard one, especially at a certain age.
01:01:56.400 --> 01:01:58.239
Yeah, but that's when it's to be done.
01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:07.599
Um your parents, or our parents at least always told us about how instant gratification can lead to a lifetime of regrets on so many things.
01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:08.000
Yeah.
01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:18.559
And it's the same thing with you know, people who years down the line and are issuing apologies and try to explain themselves, it's because of moments of where you could have just walked away.
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:25.599
Yeah, and that's exactly what the strength is in being able to just walk away and be like, Yeah, I don't really need this, it's not gonna do anything for me at this moment.
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:29.119
That's against needing to fulfill whatever urgities you have.
01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:30.800
But um, thank you very much, DG.
01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:32.239
Thank you so for having me.
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:32.800
This is fun.
01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:35.280
Thank you for all your insights.
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:35.760
Thank you.
01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:42.000
Do you have any last words for your young millennials or your Gen Z or the Zillennials?
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:43.360
Right.
01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:45.760
Stay open, stay teachable.
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:46.960
That's honestly what it is.
01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:52.559
I think there'll be there are going to be a lot of things that you won't get right immediately.
01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:59.039
So you just have to have like a malleable mindset that allows it to stretch and accommodate whatever new information you get.
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:04.480
Yeah, I'm very terrible because when he says stay open, I was like, thank you very much.
01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:11.199
Oh god, please drop your comments, make sure you subscribe and share this video.
01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:18.639
These are one of those conversations that I think we need even more women, maybe, to drop their comments, just share with us you know your thoughts on this.
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:21.519
And I think we're all trying to learn as we go along.
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:23.679
Thanks for joining us in the mentality with eBuka.
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:29.679
We survived this! Did we?
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