EXTENSIBILITY FIRST: Building .NET Systems That Survive Change with Miguel Castro [MVP]

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Yeah, welcome back to the podcast.
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Today we are joining by someone who has spent
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decade with solving the kinds of software problems
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that most developers only encounter once or twice
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in a career.
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Miguel Castro is his new dot-net engineer,
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software architect, ConsulTown,
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at International Conference Speaker,
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and one of Microsoft's most respective morrisons
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in application architecture
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and invincibility design through his career.
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He built communication platform, cloud SDKs,
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AI powered voice transcription systems,
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automation platforms and enterprise applications
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that have powered business for years,
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especially is simply writing code.
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It's designing systems that continue working
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as requirement evolved technologies,
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change and business grow.
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If you ever wonder why some enterprise applications
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become impossible to maintain,
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while other seems to evolve affordously today's conversation
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is for you.
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We explore extensibility software architecture,
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Azure AI automation, the weather approach,
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the clean design and what great architecture is often
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invisible.
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Miguel, welcome to the show.
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Thank you, thank you.
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How could it be here?
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Thanks for having me.
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Yeah.
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Where did your journey into software development begin?
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Oh boy.
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That would give away how old I am, wouldn't it?
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I don't know.
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I don't know if we want to give away my age,
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but you have not.
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I got, I mean, I don't want to turn it
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into a really long story,
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though I do enjoy talking about it,
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but I've been programming since I was 12.
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So back in the days of,
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I mean, my first computer was a radio shak, TRS80,
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and then I went into a Atari 800 and then Apple
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and I come from those days, you know what I mean?
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What, or what attract you to adopt that?
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Well, I've been in the Microsoft spaces
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for a very long time.
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I moved into the Microsoft spaces with VB,
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like most programmers do actually.
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When VB1 first came out a long time ago,
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I was just fascinated by the idea of drag and drop
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GUI design and putting events behind it,
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which was back then it was something new, of course.
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And it just became fascinating and I got into it
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like a lot of people that are listening right now,
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you know, you get into it as a hobby first
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and then it turns into a career.
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Now, I was already doing computer programming
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outside of the Microsoft arena from '86 all the way to,
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I would guess '90, '89, '90, just before Microsoft entered
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the VB spaces.
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And so I was in new to programming and logic and stuff like that.
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But that was my gateway from my old world
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into the world of Microsoft and I've been in that world
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since then, I've never gone another direction.
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So I've progressed through the same way Microsoft has progressed
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this products.
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I've, my career has progressed parallel
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with all the products that Microsoft kept releasing.
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>> Yeah, you stay a long time in enterprise software development.
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What is the difference from your starting and today?
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>> Well, we got a new competitor to deal with, of course,
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and it's got no face, unfortunately.
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I'm talking about AI, of course.
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That's the primary reason today, like really currently today.
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But just over the years, you know,
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I would have to give that a lot of thought.
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Over the years, paradigms and software engineering techniques
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have just changed constantly as new technologies come out,
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new ways of doing things are brought into play.
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So it's ever evolving, it always has been.
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I mean, I come from a time where something as simple as functions
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and subroutines were not around.
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Everything was top to bottom programming.
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And that, of course, changed radically as languages evolved
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to introduce more modularity.
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And I just followed things along.
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And it's almost hard to remember how I was designing systems
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back then or applications.
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It is hard to remember, not just because I'm older,
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but and I'm sure a lot of developers out there
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will agree with the statement that no,
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you don't design a system or an application the same way
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every single time.
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As soon as you finish it, you immediately think of things
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that you would have done differently or better.
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And then you say that for the next application, you know?
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- Yeah, and what, what actually makes it,
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makes for you a great software architecture?
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- Say again.
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- What actually makes a great software architecture for you?
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What, when we think in modern times?
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Well, pretty much the topic that we're talking about today
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is the main one.
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I mean, there's other important topics.
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I mean, when you get into larger systems
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and you gotta do service to composition
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and break things apart in smaller portions
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and, you know, with the introduction of microservices and stuff,
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those are all things that are important in designing a system,
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but the extensibility aspect of it,
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to me is it's near and dear to my heart.
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It's something that I got fascinated by
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and I'm more than willing to tell you when in a minute,
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but I got fascinated by when I first got introduced to that
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concept of plugins and modularity and stuff like that.
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And I think that is, to me, that's the foundation
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for a really well-architected system
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because once things are extensible, they become maintainable,
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they become readable.
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You know what I mean?
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There's a lot of words that end with able
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that follow along, so it's kind of at the top of my list.
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- One thing a little bit about.net to develop on, okay?
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I can see three-year, three parts, three parts,
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I don't know, three different kinds of developers.
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Yeah, there is one, one they say, okay,
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we are the.net developers, we develop something that's work.
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And there is all the other team, I say, tips, yeah.
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Writing a clean code team and designing a good system team.
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What is the different between writing clean code
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and designing a good system?
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- One right on top of the other.
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I don't think you can write clean code
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without designing a good system first.
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I mean, to me, systems are made up of parts of components,
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which fits well into the world of AI today
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because you can actually spawn off some of that kind of writing
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to AI agents, but the,
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and I don't think AI agents actually write clean code
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to be honest with you.
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But that's the, I'm not sure if I understand
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the question entirely.
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The difference between, repeat the question again for a second.
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- Yeah.
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What's the difference between writing clean code
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and designing a good system?
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- Yeah, you can, you can design a system without writing any code.
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I mean, to me, the design part of a, of a project is,
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you know, architecture and design kind of in,
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they blend in together.
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I do all that before I eating write any code.
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I want to, I want to break it apart as much as I can
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into the proper layers and components and sections
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and things like that before I even write any code.
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That allows me to, when I get to the point of writing code,
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I'm writing smaller pieces which allow you to maintain clean,
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you know, a clean style much easier than if you're just,
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if you jump right into a system without proper design
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without architecture, everybody out listening is gonna agree.
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You can start coding right away.
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And without a proper design, your code's not gonna end up clean.
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I don't care how good you are.
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It's just not gonna work out that way.
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So, so the two things do have to,
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you know, it's gotta be a chicken before the egg or whatever
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that that saying is, you know, it's gotta,
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you gotta, you gotta, you gotta,
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you're a crawl before you walk is a better analogy.
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You know, do your, do your design and architecture first
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and then you can start,
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then it been writing, writing good code is gonna be easier.
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Now, of course, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
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clean code is a very subjective term.
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What maybe being to me is not gonna be clean to you.
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There are, there are certain objective things
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that are yes or no, this is clean or this is not,
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but, but it all comes down to style too.
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And programmers are very personal with their style
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and with the way they write code
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and what they consider clean code.
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And not to say that one is wrong, one is right,
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but it can become a very argumentative topic.
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When you talk one program to another, you know what I'm saying?
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- Yeah, this is interesting.
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And I think a little bit about enterprise projects.
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What's the reason why they become difficult to maintain?
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- Oh, probably, if I had to nail,
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I mean, I'm sure there are many reasons
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and everybody's got their own reasons for it.
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But if I had to nail one thing, it's probably
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that they're not designed in a way that allows
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enhancement and modification later in an easy way.
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And that's where the topic of extensibility comes in.
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At least this has been my experience in my career.
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When I encounter a system that is,
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that is tough to enhance and tough to maintain and modify,
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I don't throw my hands up in here and give up,
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but I'll throw my hands up in here and curse somebody out.
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- And let me ask this a little bit different,
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but when you're joining existing project,
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what are the first warning signals
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that the architecture is in trouble?
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- Okay, the system does this that and the other.
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I don't like this part of it.
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What do I have to do to change this one little part of it?
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That's a pretty general question,
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but that question I think is how I would nail your,
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the question is just ask me.
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It's, again, a looting to extensibility.
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If I find that it's just a pain in the ass to change something,
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if the answer that I get is,
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"Oh, we would have to rewrite all of that."
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That already raises a red flag on how this was designed
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and architected to begin with.
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- Yeah, I think a lot of companies think development,
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it's a project.
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And I think in a little bit about
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can an architecture ever be finished?
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So there's just something, what's make a project?
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- Say repeat that again?
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- Yeah, I think a little bit about companies.
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And companies are doing development
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and they treat it as a project.
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Can a chic texture ever be finished?
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So is it right thinking or is there wrong thinking
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that's of the development of them?
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- Yes, yes and no.
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And that's always the tough question because
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there is such a thing as over-architecting,
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but in my opinion, in my experience through my career,
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everybody approaches it differently, like I said,
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it's a very personal way of doing things,
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but in my career architecture can evolve as well.
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I mean, you need to get a design and architecture
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of a software system to a certain point
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to get started on the coding,
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but that doesn't mean that you have to have the architecture
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and the design 100% done in order to start writing for it.
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But a certain part of the architecture,
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how components are connected together
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and how things can be plugged in later,
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again, alluding to extensibility.
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I personally like to get that part done out of the way.
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And then as I start writing components for it,
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then as I start writing components for it,
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I may go back and revisit the architecture
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and there's nothing wrong with revisiting.
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If you do it step by, it's more of an agile way of doing it.
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You know what I mean?
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Architecture's revisited just like component development is.
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- Yeah, I think a little bit about,
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so I'm more the 80% guy.
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I do the NBP and then I leave the project
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and let's do the 20% that's really take the 100% of time.
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But how do you balance business deadlines against
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technical excellence?
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- How do I balance business again, say say that again?
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- Yeah, business deadlines against technical excellence.
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- Well then I'm sorry, my phone kept going off
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and I didn't, I'm gonna have to ask you
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to repeat that one more time.
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- Yeah, yeah, no problem.
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How do you balance business deadlines against technical excellence?
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- Ha, ha, ha, deadlines, huh?
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I hate deadlines, I don't like deadlines.
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- I work well with deadlines.
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I mean, I do all right.
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It's, you know, that's gonna be a case by case thing, man.
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It's gonna not only depend on what kind of architecture
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and design you put together,
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but it's gonna depend on the quality
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of your development staff and also the type of companies
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you work, people you work for.
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I've worked for all types of bosses.
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Most of them have been very, very good,
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but I remember I was working for a company
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when I was living in Jersey that came around and told me
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that they were a very date oriented shop.
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Okay, I was, what exactly does that mean?
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That means when we see something we need to write,
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we set a date first just to when it needs to be done.
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And everything is based on that.
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Okay, well, I don't know anything about the system yet.
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I don't know what to design, what target,
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how do all I know is that you want this by this date?
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That's all I know.
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Well, that's just the way we work.
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That was the answer I got.
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So I can see excellence coming out of a project like that.
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It's just, it's a very case by case thing.
294
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I'm not sure if that answers your question.
295
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Yeah, I am also not the design fan.
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Yeah, because, yeah, you got the MVP and then you have,
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it's running, but yeah, it's, but you know what,
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that's where having extensibility in mind comes
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very important because when I architect something,
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when I design, I notice I keep putting the word
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architect to design kind of together,
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just to me, they're almost intertwined.
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But when I architect the system,
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I always have extensibility and modularity at the forefront
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because as I do that,
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I can start writing things right away.
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And if I start writing parts of it right away,
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I can deliver in an agile way.
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I can deliver in pieces, you know what I mean?
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You don't have to wait until the system is 100%
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and deliver it.
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The essence of agile itself means you're constantly going back
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and changing and refactoring and stuff like that,
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both from a development perspective,
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a business perspective.
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So I don't, I think that deliveries and dates
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are much better managed when things are broken apart
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into stages, stages of delivery,
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just like we have stages of development.
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You know, in your case, you said you work on
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minimum viable products first, right?
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That's the way you attack the product.
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That's fine.
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That to me is more of a proof of concept than anything else.
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I don't, and I don't like to take a proof of concept product
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or delivery and turn it into the product.
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I literally keep that as a proof of concept.
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It's a very quick and dirty thing that I would put together
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just to show the technologies and the functionalities
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that would be available in a full blown system.
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You understand what I mean?
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Yeah.
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It's dangerous.
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I mean, I'm not criticizing you in any way, of course.
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MVP, an MVP is definitely necessary.
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A minimum viable product is totally necessary
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in a lot of shots, like totally get that.
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But I do feel you got to be careful
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because I can't tell you how many times it's happened to me
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that I deliver an MVP or a POC, a proof of concept product.
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And the boss says, oh, well, that's very close to what we need.
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So that means you can get the rent done
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in just a couple of weeks, right?
344
00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:36,860
No, it doesn't work that way.
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This is literally just a proof of concept.
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It just happens to look really good.
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So, don't mistake it for a polished, finished product
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because it's not.
349
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I think especially in enterprise,
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and you have also other publics,
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like security and so on.
352
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Oh, God.
353
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And this is something you do.
354
00:18:55,460 --> 00:19:00,980
It's like I called like a click dummy.
355
00:19:00,980 --> 00:19:09,460
And yeah, the guys or the sea level or the day they don't understand
356
00:19:09,460 --> 00:19:13,460
what happened and why do is it looks so fine
357
00:19:13,460 --> 00:19:15,940
and do is a little bit of work.
358
00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:19,540
But yeah, there's a lot of other stuff you have to do.
359
00:19:19,540 --> 00:19:20,540
How so?
360
00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:24,700
Yeah, there's one of the biggest misconceptions.
361
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:31,860
Yeah, the leadership have on software architecture.
362
00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:36,340
But what is the biggest misconceptions the developers
363
00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:41,460
have about software architecture from their perspective?
364
00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:45,540
The biggest misconceptions developers have about architecture?
365
00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:53,140
I'm not really sure, never given a question like that, any kind of thought.
366
00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:59,300
I mean, I'm inclined to immediately say every,
367
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,780
it's going to be different for everybody.
368
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:09,540
I mean, my personal one, I don't know if it's a misconception.
369
00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:14,060
I mean, I have a pretty good idea of what I want in an architecture,
370
00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:17,260
what I want to see.
371
00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:19,020
A lot of times, I just don't see that.
372
00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:23,700
So I'm not sure if I understand the root of the question
373
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:25,940
or how to properly answer it.
374
00:20:25,940 --> 00:20:28,340
Yeah, then it's OK.
375
00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:37,060
I think a little bit about, yeah, I see, I have more to do with the leadership.
376
00:20:37,060 --> 00:20:42,900
And I understand what misconceptions they have.
377
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,900
Yeah, so I think it's called also be possible to develop ourselves
378
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:52,500
some, yeah, misconceptions about software architecture, but, yeah,
379
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:55,980
were not that that is fine.
380
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:59,420
Well, I think when you're, when your team of architects,
381
00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:04,580
or when your architects is completely disconnected from the developers,
382
00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:08,460
when it's not the same person, see, I'm used to doing all the work myself.
383
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:11,660
I've been a one-man shop for a very, very long time.
384
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:14,700
And I kind of like it that way.
385
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,820
But I mean, I have worked on teams before.
386
00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:22,660
I've never worked on a team where the architecture is that separated
387
00:21:22,660 --> 00:21:26,780
from the development, enough to cause any kind of misconceptions.
388
00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:32,340
But I think I can see that happening if those two sides are very, very separated,
389
00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:36,900
because there's a lot of people that think that architecture is completely separated
390
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,020
from the technology and it's not.
391
00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:43,500
It's decoupled from the technology quite a bit, but it's not entirely separated.
392
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:48,380
And I think there can be a big disconnect when you've got a team of architects
393
00:21:48,380 --> 00:21:57,820
or an architect that designs something that the tech stack that is going to be used to write it
394
00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:01,580
may not be able to handle, you know what I mean?
395
00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:07,300
Or maybe the staff or the skill level of the development staff
396
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:09,740
think that'd be able to handle.
397
00:22:09,740 --> 00:22:13,460
And I think that could introduce clashes and misconceptions and things like that.
398
00:22:13,460 --> 00:22:18,940
I think those two sides really need to stay in close communication as close as possible
399
00:22:18,940 --> 00:22:21,540
if they are not the same person.
400
00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:24,220
In my case, it's always been the same person.
401
00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:28,940
Or somebody that I've worked very, very closely with and continue will continue to work closely
402
00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:31,100
with on an ongoing basis.
403
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:41,340
That communication line needs to be maintained open during the entire time.
404
00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:48,420
I have a look a little bit about your publications and your writings.
405
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:53,020
And there's one topic also we have in the headline.
406
00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:56,900
It's extensive extensibility.
407
00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:05,220
Why has extensibility become, I say one of your favorite, architectural, the topics?
408
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:09,300
Okay, so that's where the real, real nerd in me comes out, right?
409
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:16,620
Because when I got started in .NET, this is obviously back in .NET 1.0.
410
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:21,420
And I was fascinated by the way web forms worked.
411
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:26,540
Now before that, I was doing classic ASP, classic ASP development using Microsoft Transaction
412
00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:28,900
Server as the object broker.
413
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:33,220
And then of course, a lot of eb6 components in the background.
414
00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:38,740
And a classic ASP's got bbScript built into it or JavaScript built into it.
415
00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:44,420
And that's how you generate the HTML within it or make it as dynamic as we were able to
416
00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:46,420
make it back then.
417
00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:53,260
This was obviously before the days of XMLHTPP later to be known as Ajax.
418
00:23:53,260 --> 00:24:00,260
But when I got started in web forms, which was the web platform that ASP.NET offered at
419
00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:03,660
that time, the only one.
420
00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:10,780
I took to it with a lot of, I liked it, I liked it quite a bit.
421
00:24:10,780 --> 00:24:17,340
I took to the concept of writing web controls quite easily and I was fascinated by it.
422
00:24:17,340 --> 00:24:22,020
That became a topic that I did a lot of speaking about and a lot of writing about is writing
423
00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:23,820
custom web controls.
424
00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:31,620
And web controls are a point of extensibility because they're modular pieces of a web site
425
00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:33,820
or web page.
426
00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:38,060
Web controls don't have to be something as small as a text box and a label and a button.
427
00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:43,420
I was writing web controls that were full blown components, like little mini forms that
428
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:47,780
can be plug and played into multiple different forms.
429
00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:51,300
And I found that fun, fascinating and fun.
430
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:54,900
And then later came ASP.NET.
431
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:56,660
NBC.
432
00:24:56,660 --> 00:25:02,620
And I was very curious as to how that was going to differ.
433
00:25:02,620 --> 00:25:04,700
And that was easy to learn.
434
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:07,860
I was a seasoned programmer by then.
435
00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:15,300
I started researching and looking into exactly how that worked because it wrote on top of ASP.NET.
436
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:16,300
Right?
437
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:21,460
Now at that point, I got a very clear understanding that ASP.NET does not equal web forms.
438
00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:27,140
ASP.NET is the architecture and the framework on top of web forms.
439
00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:33,420
And when I started digging around and re-reversing engineering, a lot of the stuff in web forms and
440
00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:37,540
how web forms and NBC worked.
441
00:25:37,540 --> 00:25:47,400
It became very apparent that ASP.NET is the underlying architecture on both web forms and
442
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400
ASP.NET.
443
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,440
I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, NBC.
444
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:59,300
So then I researched until case how exactly does ASP.NET take a request, a URL and turn it into
445
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:02,540
the eventual output, which is just a bunch of HTML, right?
446
00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:06,700
There's a lot of things in the middle there.
447
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:13,220
And that's where I learned the concept of a pipeline and plugging things into a pipeline.
448
00:26:13,220 --> 00:26:22,020
And in reverse engineering and reading and learning a lot about this stuff, I learned exactly
449
00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:31,940
how a request is step by step turned into a web page in web forms.
450
00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:40,820
And then I learned how that happens in NBC and all that happens on the same pipeline, on
451
00:26:40,820 --> 00:26:44,340
the same real railroad track, if you will, right?
452
00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:54,460
And all Microsoft did was unplug some of the parts that turn a request into from a web
453
00:26:54,460 --> 00:27:02,860
form into HTML and plug in other things to handle the request and turn it into a web page using
454
00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:05,780
an NBC kind of architecture.
455
00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:11,700
And that, lining out how that worked was one of the most fascinating and enlightening moments
456
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:13,500
that I had.
457
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:19,020
I learned how to write HTTP modules and HTTP handlers and all that kind of stuff.
458
00:27:19,020 --> 00:27:25,140
And it just fascinated me and I just really got into how would I apply this same kind of
459
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:32,180
technique, the same kind of architecture to another system, to something I can, if I'm
460
00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:36,620
designing something for a client, for a customer, that was always doing consulting.
461
00:27:36,620 --> 00:27:39,020
And I got, that's how I got into it.
462
00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:45,340
And to this day, that's how I approach systems, you know, can I, maybe not literally a backbone
463
00:27:45,340 --> 00:27:51,540
like ASP.net, but a backbone and pipeline kind of, kind of mentality.
464
00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:55,900
How can I design the system where, you know, everything has to go from point A to point
465
00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:03,020
Z. So to get from point A to point Z, what, what steps do I take and can I make these steps
466
00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:09,280
where I can remove one and put in another one, change the way something works, looks or
467
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:18,280
behaves later on. And that's a very broad description, but I think you make it the point, you
468
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,280
know what I mean?
469
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,960
Writing modular stuff like that were, were if a client, to me, it became incredibly important
470
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:31,960
after a delivery because I saw a client like the system I delivered.
471
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,480
They have no idea how things work behind the cutters, of course.
472
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,480
They never do.
473
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,120
But then they said, oh, this is very cool.
474
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:40,960
But this little piece right here, can we change this to do this?
475
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,920
And then I would turn around and have a change like that very, very quickly.
476
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,040
And of course, they would be very happy.
477
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,960
And the work was easier for me because it would literally be just unplugging one part that
478
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,960
I did and putting in something else and not changing any of the underlying architecture
479
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,760
or frameworks that orchestrates the entire thing.
480
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,400
And that, you know, that turned into just a really love for designing the extensible software.
481
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:12,240
And I got into different kinds of extensibility patterns in, in, I even, I did a plural side
482
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,560
course on developing extensible software where I go over several different patterns and,
483
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,200
and give examples in everything.
484
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,800
And it just, it became a really cool way of writing systems because it not only was cool
485
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:30,280
to deliver it and see the clients happy that I was able to deliver in minimal time and
486
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,320
make changes in minimal time, but it was, it was rewarding for me.
487
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,520
It actually bettered the way I write code and the way I architect it back to the clean code
488
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:39,920
that you were talking about.
489
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:45,120
I found myself writing cleaner code because now it was managing smaller parts of code.
490
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:51,360
It's always easy to go clean when you're managing small, you know, and, and, and we'll just,
491
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,120
it just, it just, I kept evolving, evolving from there.
492
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,960
And that's just the way that I do things today.
493
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Yeah, this was, was really, really good, really good overview.
494
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,200
When you have to, to, to, expand the ability designed to explain in simple words as I told
495
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,160
you, 12 year old boy, or girl, how will you explain it?
496
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:29,320
Oh, boy, yeah, that's like, that's like asking JTPT to, to, to, to, to write the, show me the,
497
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,400
the US declaration of independence or five year old can understand it, right?
498
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,760
Oh, no, but it took it to a good question.
499
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,600
I never really thought about it like that because I'm used to talking to developers, not
500
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:48,440
five year olds, but, but it's all, I mean, if I, if I, if I can change it, if I can introduce
501
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:55,040
them to that world using analogies that they understand, I guess it would be building blocks.
502
00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:00,760
I give them building blocks, you know, build, build a castle out of these building blocks.
503
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,600
They would build a castle for me.
504
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,520
And then I say, well, I don't, I don't like the top, the tower of that castle because the
505
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,480
princess can't come out of the window.
506
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,520
Um, change that, change that, the top of that tower.
507
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,240
Well, they don't got to rewrite the entire, redo the entire castle.
508
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,000
They just got to take the tower off and put a different kind of tower on it.
509
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,000
You know what I mean?
510
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,000
Yeah.
511
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,280
So that would be the best analogy I can give to, to a little, yeah.
512
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:32,640
I, I, I, I love bricks and, uh, yeah, I understand the, uh, with my 12 year old mind.
513
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,840
In my, I'm, I'm a, I'm a big, I'm a big Lego fan.
514
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,120
I build a lot of Legos.
515
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,480
So in my world, that would be the equivalent of Lego, right?
516
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,400
I don't like the way this, the front of this building comes out.
517
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,160
And I'm plugging and put something else on there.
518
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,160
Yeah.
519
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Yeah.
520
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,160
Yeah.
521
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,640
Uh, Lego is also, uh, it's also a great topic.
522
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,160
But, but yeah.
523
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,840
Um, it'll get me started, man.
524
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,160
I can talk about Legos all day.
525
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,840
Guarantee that a woman will never talk to me again, of course.
526
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:03,840
Yeah.
527
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,840
Yeah.
528
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:12,040
I have, by another, not, not Lego, but also bricks, uh, uh, uh, star destroyer for two
529
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:17,640
weeks, my, my girlfriend also, not so willing to, to talk to me
530
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,920
actually, um, if she's, we'll package with 20,000 bricks, but yeah.
531
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:23,920
Yeah.
532
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:24,920
Yeah.
533
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,400
The, the, the, it's, uh, yeah, when you, when you get a nerd, you get a nerd.
534
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,400
Yeah.
535
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:38,640
Um, when, when, uh, shoulders develop a design for extension and, and
536
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:47,800
they're also, uh, cases when they should do it not or they should yet.
537
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,800
I, I understood when she developed a design for, uh, repeat that again.
538
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,360
Wanna make sure I get what you call it?
539
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Well, when she, when she'll develop our design for extensions and when
540
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,040
she, they shouldn't, when they don't do it.
541
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:11,280
Um, I think that the size of the system is probably the best way to answer that
542
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,280
question.
543
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,640
You're not gonna, the more, the more the, the more time you spend on
544
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,280
archord, when you design something for modularity and extensibility, it's gonna
545
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,800
take a little more time and make no mistake about that.
546
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,840
So if you want, if the system that you're eventually needing to deliver is
547
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,120
very, very small, it's a quick and dirty application, you don't need to, it
548
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,000
would be overengineering to, to go through through all the, all the, the,
549
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,840
the thought, the thought process of how would I modularize this and make it
550
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:44,840
extensible?
551
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,600
Um, it's small enough where it'd be easy to maintain.
552
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,480
I think the size of the system is very relevant as, as, as, as, as it's, as
553
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,080
it's clear that what has to be delivered is a large scale system.
554
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Um, then, then it becomes more important and then, you know, the minute you
555
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,160
ask yourself the questions, okay, where do you see this changing in the future or
556
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,840
being enhanced in the future?
557
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,680
If there are several answers to that question, that's a give away that we need to
558
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,520
put some thought into making sure this is a well designed, extensible and
559
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,040
modular system.
560
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:25,040
Um, now you may not always get the honest answer to that question, because I'm sure
561
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:31,040
a lot of developers out there having countered given a task by a boss and
562
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,880
them saying, and if they ask, well, what about this case here?
563
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,040
And then the answer is, I don't worry about that it only happens once a year.
564
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,320
Well, to me, when something happens once a year, I got to count for it like if it
565
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,360
happens every week.
566
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,280
That's just the way I, I, I refuse to leave something out because it only
567
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,160
happens once a year, because that once a year is going to be a pain in the
568
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,120
ass when that comes back.
569
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,080
And if there's a lot of those things like that, then, then the modular and
570
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,160
extensible design needs to be considered as early in the game as possible.
571
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:07,040
So it's very relevant to, it's very, it's very related to the size of the
572
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,320
system that you're putting together.
573
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:16,000
Or, or, let me add to that, or what is the, what is the potential of this system,
574
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,760
which is now very small, is just a little application right now, where do you
575
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,480
see these, what do you see this going in the future?
576
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,480
And again, the honesty of the answer is going to be very relevant because most of
577
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,440
the time, you're not going to get an honest answer from a, from a boss because
578
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,280
they just wanted to live it quickly.
579
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,640
But, you know, when they come back and say, or over that system, you designed
580
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,760
six months ago, that little application, you know, the, the, the, the, the people
581
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,720
that I gave to like it, they want to turn into this, this, and that.
582
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:45,680
And now all of a sudden it just became something big.
583
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,400
So those are the questions that, that, that I tend to ask.
584
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,080
And like I said, I don't always get an honest response to it.
585
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,840
Yeah. You say design patterns.
586
00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:04,320
So which design patterns do you really most and which patterns are, I say, overused?
587
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:13,360
Overused. Well, as far as the, the first part of that question, the design patterns that,
588
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:20,320
to me, in my design, in my type of, of development, most of the extensibility
589
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:27,600
designs that I do all stem from a strategy pattern or something similar to the
590
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640
strategy pattern or something that is derived from it.
591
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,240
To me, the strategy pattern is at the heart of embracing abstractions.
592
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,760
The whole point of extensibility is to be able to plug one thing in and, and
593
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:45,120
plug in another, plug in another one. And that kind of plug in mentality is only going
594
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,840
to work if the backbone that you're plugging into is going to have the same
595
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,400
interface, the same way of talking to an old component as it does to a new
596
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:59,200
component. And that's abstraction. And that's at the heart of the strategy pattern.
597
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,680
That's, to me, that's at the heart of extensibility.
598
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,480
Everything from there can, everything can progress from there.
599
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,200
There are other patterns like the chain of responsibility pattern, which is kind of at the, at the,
600
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:17,600
the heart of that combined with strategy is at the heart of, of what I call the event,
601
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:23,600
the external events pattern. A lot of people are probably questioning what the hell
602
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,640
that I just mean by external events. Let me put it in a way that, that,
603
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:42,880
that, that developers can't understand because it's a pattern that I actually love and I use quite a bit. It's not really one of the 23 golf patterns, but it's the exact same pattern that ASP.NET uses when it writes, when it gives you HTTP modules.
604
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:56,560
So the pattern, for those of you listening, if you're familiar with IH-GDP module and how to write an HTTP module, that's pretty much at the heart of how ASP.NET turns a request.
605
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:06,160
Into a series of a bunch of HTML, whether it's in web forms or whether it's in NBC or whether it's in API.
606
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:15,680
You know, web, web API is the exact same pipeline as NBC and web forms. It starts with the request.
607
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,280
The only difference is that it's delivering JSON data instead of HTML.
608
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:35,040
So the different points on the railroad track are very different, but the interface behind the scenes is going to be the same. Well, you know, I can, I can turn, I can give you a mini, a mini ASP.NET framework example.
609
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:50,000
I can, I can deliver a mini one. It would be useless because of course I'd be rewriting the re-reabending the wheel, but I can, I can do a mini one to show you how something like that would work by using the same pattern that Microsoft use, which is the HTTP module pattern.
610
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:59,680
One of my favorite patterns. And I tend to use that quite a bit. The latest system that I just delivered to to my last customer, use that extensively.
611
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:08,560
You know, if you wanted to write, if you wanted to write a plug-in for this system, here is the interface and the events.
612
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:18,960
And these are the kind of, these are the events you can tap into. And I call it the external event pattern because the host, the backbone system is going to be.
613
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:32,240
Checking for events subscriber and calling an event, but the writing of that event comes from a plug-in that you add later in a different assembly, not from hard wired.
614
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:38,880
Very strongly coupled event. It's a very loosely coupled thing, which is why I tend to call it the external events.
615
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:48,880
But that's that the, which, which that is a strategy pattern. Those are the main ones that I base things on.
616
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:56,480
Everything is based on abstraction. When it comes to extensibility and plug-ins and modules, it's all based on abstraction.
617
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:04,480
If you're not familiar, I mean, if you're not comfortable with the concept of abstraction, it's something that you need to get comfortable with.
618
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:11,360
Anybody that has done developer dependency injection understands abstraction very well because it's at the root of that.
619
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:28,720
Awesome. Yeah, we have a lot of buzzwords now, but can you a little bit, X, Barsport, what's the wrong word? But we have plug-ins, events, dependency injections and also interface.
620
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,040
How did all this work together?
621
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:47,680
Well, I mean, that'll depend on what you're putting together really. I mean, dependency injection is based on the whole concept of abstraction, which in the world of dot net abstractions mean interfaces.
622
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,680
They mean interfaces and abstract classes too, but primarily interfaces.
623
00:40:51,680 --> 00:41:03,120
So that's how DI works together with interfaces. It's based on that. It's at its very root.
624
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:21,200
Same thing with plug-ins. If I'm going to write a plug-in, I have to embrace the abstraction because my main system is going to be calling a plug-in and the whole idea of an extensible plug-in is that it doesn't know what that plug-in is going to do.
625
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:32,080
It just knows what it has available to do. The method in the properties that it has available to it and what the implementation behind the scenes is, it has no idea.
626
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:44,880
That's at the very heart of doing modularity and extensibility. I think I might have answered your question or might have gone off on a different tangent.
627
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,680
You tell me, did I address that properly?
628
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,520
Yeah, really, really good.
629
00:41:51,520 --> 00:42:05,520
I think a little bit about extensibility. Can you share an example where extensibility is safe and entry product?
630
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:12,320
Yeah, let me see if I can think of a good one just recent.
631
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:21,920
One that's fresh in my head from the last system that I did. Let's see.
632
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:31,280
Okay, you mentioned, and my intro, you mentioned the transcriber system that I wrote. I wrote it just to do live transcriptions.
633
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,000
Live transcriptions from phone calls in a call center.
634
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:43,760
Literally, as the phone call is happening, they see the live transcription on the screen. We've all seen that on Zoom, Google Meet.
635
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,800
They all have transcription, live transcription built into it.
636
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:54,800
But I had to do it on a custom system because this client had their own UI, their own that they used to manage the call center.
637
00:42:54,800 --> 00:43:01,280
It wasn't using anybody else's UI that had built in transcription.
638
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:07,040
I had to do this myself and this was before AI was even around, to be honest with you.
639
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:12,640
I learned how to use Microsoft's cognitive services to do a transcription.
640
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,080
I wrote a transcription system that worked beautifully.
641
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:24,560
As it was used, let me correct that. As I was writing it, I tried to think ahead.
642
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,560
Now, I went with this customer for 15 years, just one client.
643
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:39,760
So I got to know them very, very, excuse me. I got to know them very well and was able to always anticipate what I think they may be asking for in the future.
644
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,680
Which, you normally, a lot of people can't do that with short-term customers.
645
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,880
But I was with them, including myself, but I was with them for long enough where I kind of knew how they think.
646
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:57,120
And I was writing the system and a lot of things popped into my mind that as the transcription is coming through
647
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:08,000
and the customer service agent is watching this happen and seeing the transcription between their customer and their own voice.
648
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:15,280
I can see different things being asked for to make their job significantly simpler.
649
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:24,560
The two that came to mind, the first one that came to mind is the ability to search the knowledge base, the company's knowledge base.
650
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:32,800
And I knew that would eventually come up because in talking to some of the agents, they told me that that's actually one of the processes they use.
651
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:39,040
As they're talking to a customer, they're on another monitor searching the knowledge base, the company knowledge base,
652
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,000
to see if that customer's problem has come up in the past and is there an immediate solution.
653
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,920
So that was one thing.
654
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:53,520
Later on, when AI came into play, we got the ability to use CHGPT.
655
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,080
And I learned how to use the CHGPT API.
656
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,520
So think about it.
657
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,600
You got two things now that can share the abstraction.
658
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,480
So I think this is actually a pretty decent example.
659
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,840
You got a conversation from a, you got two conversations, two streams.
660
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,120
You got the agent and you got the customer, right?
661
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:18,200
Now I'm only interested in the customer conversation for the purposes of the answer to your question.
662
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,560
So I got the customer explaining things over the phone and I'm transcribing this.
663
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,640
So I have this in writing.
664
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:31,800
So I want to take this now and automatically send it somewhere for some kind of processing.
665
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,920
Now think of, think of how abstract I just worded that.
666
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,480
Okay. I want to send this transcript or would you send it to or whatever.
667
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,240
Part of this transcript, I want to send it somewhere for processing.
668
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:49,840
And I want to have results of that processing come back so the agent can see it on another monitor
669
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,080
or somewhere else on the screen.
670
00:45:52,080 --> 00:46:01,200
Well, that very abstract description is what I took into consideration when I was designing
671
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,240
and writing the transcription system.
672
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:11,240
Because later, much later, I was able to, to, what I did is that I put in a hook, in
673
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:18,080
extensibility terms, we say hooks, I put in a hook so that I can put a plug in at this
674
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,080
point later.
675
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,840
It's time that a, that a sentence or a couple of sentences came in on the customer stream.
676
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:31,400
I would take the words of that sentence, the text and I would, I would very abstractly
677
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,160
send that out somewhere.
678
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,800
Now I didn't have any somewhere to send it out to, but that's what I was coding for.
679
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,200
I'm in an abstract way.
680
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:43,400
I'm sending that part of the conversation somewhere that later on, I'm going to plug what that
681
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:44,840
somewhere is.
682
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,360
And I delivered the transcription system and it worked very nicely.
683
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:53,320
Sure, shit, the, can I say that?
684
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:59,080
Sure as hell, the customer came back, that my boss came back with, you know, how do we get
685
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:04,400
the, the, the, the FAQ, the frequently asked questions, the knowledge base involved in
686
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:05,400
this.
687
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:06,560
And I knew that was going to come up.
688
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,440
So the first use that I had for that hook, that plug in point, that, that's all that hook
689
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:16,920
is, is a plug in point, an extensibility point is I took those, that, that text that was
690
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:22,960
coming little by little from the customer and I send it to the knowledge base and see what
691
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,080
comes back.
692
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:29,280
And if something came back, then I displayed it on the screen and the agent side, the customer
693
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:35,840
service agent side, customer service representative, but the customer actually did not just the agent
694
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:36,840
did.
695
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:43,000
So the agent was able to read, it results from a knowledge base in real time as the customer
696
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:51,800
was speaking to them because of a plug in point that I, that I set aside ahead of time so
697
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,600
that I can use for the knowledge base search later on.
698
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:04,320
Later, I modified, or I added another extensibility plug in where I would send the customer text
699
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,440
to chat GP and turn it into a question of source and see what comes back.
700
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,880
So that's, that's kind of a rough overview on, on how I am, how I did implement it, something
701
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,160
like that into one of my systems, but it worked out really, really well.
702
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,160
And you know, you put, you put a switch behind it, you can turn it off and on, right?
703
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:26,640
So if, if the agent doesn't want to, doesn't want to, doesn't care about the knowledge base,
704
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,920
they don't want, they don't want to see all this stuff come back.
705
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,400
They just click it off.
706
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:38,000
And now I'm no longer sending the text over, but I can turn it back on anytime.
707
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,000
Does that make sense?
708
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:46,200
Yeah, it's made it makes, it's a really, really good explaining.
709
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,920
I want also a little bit talk about enterprise platforms.
710
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:55,720
You are designing SDKs, communication platforms, automation systems.
711
00:48:55,720 --> 00:49:00,960
What, what do these projects begin?
712
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,120
Where do the projects begin?
713
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,000
Actually from a bad dream that the boss had.
714
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,720
No, seriously, I mean, that's how it works, right?
715
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:16,520
I can't tell you how many things I've done for my, my customer over the 15 years that I've
716
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:21,320
been with them, where I get approached with, you know, hey, this occurred to me last night.
717
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,720
I thought about doing this in the nest.
718
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:26,760
I'm not sure how we can do this, but it would be very, very cool.
719
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,040
So figure out a way to do it.
720
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,200
And it was, it was a great job because of that.
721
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:40,560
I was given a lot of freedom, a lot of leeway, but how to repeat the original question again.
722
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:50,800
I want to make sure I, yeah, where do you start with or how do projects begin?
723
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:58,960
This was my questions from, from that dreams from, from your, what, well, obviously the,
724
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,680
the main question is, what exactly are you looking for?
725
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:10,000
But the one that I always, I twist that question into what do you envision doing when this is done
726
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,520
and delivered and working perfectly?
727
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,520
What is your, what is your vision?
728
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:21,240
You know, I, if, if the customer can tell me, I'd like to be able to come in and do this
729
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:22,960
and have this return to me.
730
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,800
And this is the ideal situation.
731
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,240
That, that's, that's a primary thing because I dig deeper from that point.
732
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:38,260
I don't like to, I don't like to start any kind of application design or architecture without
733
00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:46,760
knowing what the, the desired result from a customer's perspective is, because that can,
734
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,200
that can lead to mistakes.
735
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:57,360
The latest thing that I did for my, for my company was automate a series of manual accounting
736
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:02,200
processes that would occur at 430 in the morning.
737
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,160
And they were all done manually.
738
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:10,840
And it would have to be done that early because it has to be done when bank information on
739
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:16,000
credit cards and checks comes in and has to be done by a certain time.
740
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,080
So that was the time that they would do it at 430 in the morning.
741
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,200
And they were looking for a way to, to automate this.
742
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:27,160
So I asked that question, what do you, you know, what do you envision in an ideal situation?
743
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,320
What, what are you looking to happen?
744
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:34,680
Obviously, the first answer was, we don't want to get up at 430 in the morning anymore.
745
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:42,400
So now, okay, now let me, let me walk, walk me through what the manual process is.
746
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,800
And that's actually very key when I design something, especially when I'm doing automation.
747
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,960
Look me in detail as much as you can, what the manual process to doing this.
748
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,320
So I can get a good understanding on how I'm going to automate it.
749
00:51:55,320 --> 00:52:02,000
If, if something can be done manually, more often than not, I can have it done automatically.
750
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,360
It's, it's, I know, I know that's very vague and it's very broad.
751
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:12,640
But that's at the end's essence of what I, what I ask when I'm getting ready to design
752
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,320
a new project.
753
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,280
What are you looking for? What is your ideal outcome of what you would like to see when
754
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,280
all this is done?
755
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,840
If this was done tomorrow, how do you envision yourself using it?
756
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:29,000
And then now walk me through how do you do it now?
757
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:35,400
Because that will allow me to isolate possible ways that you could be doing it better.
758
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,840
Not to tell somebody how to do their job when it's outside the realm of computers, but,
759
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,760
but it, it, it helps me understand things step by step.
760
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:49,240
So then when I go into automating it, I know exactly what I'm getting into and what, what,
761
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:51,920
what, what things I have to look for.
762
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:56,120
You know, a good, a good analogy to this that's not in the world of, of.net.
763
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:03,400
And, and I deal with this all the time is I, I have a Tesla and my Tesla here in the States
764
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,160
were allowed to use full self drive.
765
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:10,360
I know that you in Stockholm or not, which, which, you have no idea what you're missing
766
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,600
then because you get, you get it.
767
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,040
It's like, I have a chauffeur.
768
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,840
Yeah, it's true.
769
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:23,720
But, you know, you always, people that get into my car and they, and they, they, they get
770
00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:27,440
fascinated by how well this works and they ask me how it works.
771
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,680
Now, I can't tell you exactly how full self drive works step by step, but I can, I can,
772
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,280
I can generalize how I would approach it.
773
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,560
Now, I'm in nowhere near qualified to write something like, like, a, like a, a, a, a, a, a,
774
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,280
a full self drive for, for a vehicle that's going to go out on the road.
775
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,000
But think about it when you're, when you're doing something when you're, when you're driving,
776
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:54,360
you know, you got to get from here to there and what decision tree are you going to undertake?
777
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,360
What decision point are you going to undertake to get from here to there?
778
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,560
How, like, I just changed lanes.
779
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,040
What made me change that lane?
780
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:05,240
Well, I looked to my left and I noticed it was clear and it was clear up ahead of me
781
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:06,560
so I changed left.
782
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,400
Okay, right, that down.
783
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,800
That's what an automated system is going to do.
784
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,320
You know, I, that, that, I stopped at that red light.
785
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:15,760
Why did I stop at that red light?
786
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,640
Well, because I saw the light and it turned red and I stopped because I know that's the
787
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:20,640
law.
788
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:21,840
Well, I write that down.
789
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,880
That's what my automation system is going to do.
790
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,720
And that's in a very, very simplistic way.
791
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:30,840
What a full self drive system like Tesla or Waymo or any of those are doing.
792
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:36,600
They're making decisions, you know, based on the, the possible, the, based on what, what
793
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,360
do they got to do to make that decision?
794
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:43,680
You got to look around and see what's around and then take it from there step by step.
795
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:48,600
Obviously, we look at one direction at a time where a car like mine looks at nine different
796
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:49,600
directions at a time.
797
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,720
So things are done much faster.
798
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:56,040
But, but that, that kind of decision making, you know, what, what does, what will it take
799
00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:01,280
to get from A to Z in your system and your system or whatever?
800
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:06,400
Give me as much detail as you can so that I can try to design at that point or duplicate
801
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,440
from there in a more automated fashion.
802
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,360
And that's, that's typically my approach to something.
803
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,400
Some client like that, a lot of people do not, they're like, well, why do I got to spend
804
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:18,400
this amount of time with you?
805
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:19,960
That's what we hired you for.
806
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:24,480
Well, no, you really want me to take this into my own hands and decide how you're going
807
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:25,640
to do it.
808
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,440
The whole point of you hiring me is that I want to do it the way you want, you know what
809
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:30,440
I mean?
810
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:35,320
I'll write it the way I want, but I want the outcome, the, the end game to be what you
811
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,320
are looking for.
812
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,400
Yeah, awesome.
813
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:45,640
So for this, this was really, really, really great session.
814
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:52,280
And I think we have to do another session because for another topics.
815
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,920
This was really, really, I really enjoy it.
816
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,280
And let's jump into the rapid fire round.
817
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,040
I only give you short questions and you give a short answer.
818
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:04,040
Okay.
819
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:05,040
All right.
820
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:09,720
I just want to make sure that everybody out there knows that I have no idea what you're
821
00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:11,720
going to say.
822
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:15,560
No, no, however, you're going to completely, you're going to completely take me by surprise
823
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:16,560
here.
824
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,080
And I know I'm not going to like it, but go ahead.
825
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,800
Rest or graph QL.
826
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,320
Say that again.
827
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,800
Rest or graph QL.
828
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,640
I would say rest because I am not a graph QL person.
829
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,040
I've had minimum exposure to graph QL.
830
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,880
It's cool.
831
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,720
I kind of bring back memories of the old O data days.
832
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:41,920
Remember, O data.
833
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,880
In rest, we have O data in Microsoft.
834
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,800
Graph QL reminds me of that because you can do queering and everything right from a request.
835
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,880
But I'm much more comfortable in standard rest.
836
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,000
As most that net people are, I believe.
837
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,600
The clean architecture or vertical slice.
838
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,320
Say that again.
839
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,880
Clean architecture or vertical slice.
840
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,720
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
841
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:14,320
I think a clean architecture can result in many vertical slices.
842
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,320
Okay.
843
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,880
As a function or containers.
844
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:21,920
Functions or containers.
845
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,920
Or you said as your functions.
846
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:25,920
Yeah.
847
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,640
I'll come to complete a different things though.
848
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,920
I mean, containers can contain full blown apps.
849
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:32,400
Azure functions are just that.
850
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:40,360
They're smaller functions to do whether it's a job of a microservice or an even smaller job
851
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:41,360
in that.
852
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:48,960
A C# feature you call live about.
853
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,880
A C# feature I cannot live without.
854
00:57:53,880 --> 00:58:00,200
I can't believe that I'm going to say this because I didn't feel this way at the beginning, but
855
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:10,440
I've gotten very, very accustomed to making async code much easier because I used to be
856
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,240
a big user of the begin and pattern in the old days.
857
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,920
My very first magazine article was written about the begin and pattern.
858
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,400
And of course, async await replaced all of that.
859
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,880
And at first, I was trying to figure out, okay, is this being overused?
860
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:28,720
Am I using it in the right place?
861
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:33,120
And now most most things that I do are going to be a sync enabled in one way or another.
862
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:37,520
So if I have to give you one answer, it would probably be that without getting it more
863
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,520
quiet.
864
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:41,520
Most underrated.
865
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,520
That feature.
866
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:44,520
Most underrated.
867
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:45,520
Yeah.
868
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:46,520
Most.
869
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:47,520
Most of the read.
870
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:58,240
And that feature extension methods.
871
00:58:58,240 --> 00:58:59,240
Okay.
872
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:00,240
Tap source spaces.
873
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,760
We'll see that again.
874
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,520
Depths or spaces.
875
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:07,520
What's the first word?
876
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:08,520
I heard spaces.
877
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:09,520
What's the word?
878
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,720
Depths or spaces.
879
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:12,720
Taps TPS.
880
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:13,720
Yeah.
881
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,800
I'm not sure I know what that is.
882
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,800
Okay.
883
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,480
That movie.
884
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,480
What's your favorite drink when you're coding?
885
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:25,960
My favorite what?
886
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,160
Favorite drink when you're coding coffee and the drink.
887
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:35,760
Actually, I have it right in front of me right now.
888
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:42,960
The only soda I drink is, I don't drink anything with Asperatee in it.
889
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:51,120
So I drink a diet soda from a company here in the states called Zavia, which is sweetened
890
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:55,560
with a natural herb sweetened called Stavia.
891
00:59:55,560 --> 01:00:00,600
I don't know how popular that is overseas, but that's what I'm that in water to be honest
892
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:01,600
with you.
893
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:05,280
I'm a one cup of coffee per day person.
894
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:06,880
I've never been a huge coffee drinker.
895
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,400
I drink it because I have a physical addiction to caffeine and I'll get a headache if
896
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,680
I don't have one cup a day.
897
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:18,000
I coding yes or no.
898
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,120
Now I'm going to say yes and I don't know how controversy that answer is going to be.
899
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:23,880
Can I elaborate on that answer a little bit?
900
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:25,840
Can you do more detail?
901
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:33,000
So I was one of those that at the beginning was not really worried that AI is going to
902
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:38,320
replace my job because I've been doing this for 40 years.
903
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,880
But it's just gotten really, really good, really, really good.
904
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:47,480
And I've now taken the stance that, you know, if you can't, if you can't beat it, join
905
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:48,480
it, right?
906
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,680
I don't fight with AI anymore, but I use it.
907
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,280
I use it extensively.
908
01:00:53,280 --> 01:01:00,240
And I think that AI still can't fully design or architect the system based on client requirements
909
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,560
of the way I could or the way a human can.
910
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:08,360
But once you've got all that architecture, things that we spoke of during the last hour
911
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:16,160
out of the way, doing the component part of it, the small pieces of it, I have no problem
912
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,720
farming that out to AI just in the interest of getting it done quickly.
913
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:27,080
I try to keep the, I try to keep the requests of AI that are going to be code oriented
914
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,560
as small as possible because it maintain, it keeps things maintainable and it gives
915
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,760
me less to check over because I still have to check a lot of stuff over.
916
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,360
I find AI making a lot of mistakes here and there.
917
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,480
So I still want to check it over.
918
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,800
But if I can put components together quickly, I'm all for it.
919
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,040
Who wouldn't be all for it?
920
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:53,120
I think you'd be a fool to fight that and to do it yourself because once a client, once
921
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:58,360
a customer or a company catch wind of the fact that I could have done this a lot faster,
922
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,520
they're going to question why I took the slow route.
923
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,640
And I don't want that to come into question.
924
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:05,760
So I'm for it now.
925
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:10,360
If it's done the right way, if it's used the right way, I am in favor of it.
926
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:11,360
Awesome.
927
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:17,200
Yeah, then I say, we go, thank you so much for joining me today.
928
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:22,720
I think, yeah, I had so much more questions, but we are a little bit running out of time.
929
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:31,460
But I think it was extreme good overview, especially once the topic about great architect
930
01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:33,460
architecture and accessibility.
931
01:02:33,460 --> 01:02:36,460
Access, it's not errors.
932
01:02:36,460 --> 01:02:38,300
It's so hot today.
933
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:39,300
Yeah.
934
01:02:39,300 --> 01:02:47,060
So I would say thank you and all the, yeah, all the listeners find your links and info
935
01:02:47,060 --> 01:02:51,100
in the show notes and yeah, have a great day.
936
01:02:51,100 --> 01:02:55,500
Let me just give one last piece of information for those that are listening.
937
01:02:55,500 --> 01:03:00,480
I did a plural side course called Developing Extensible Software that I think of all the
938
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:02,100
courses that I did.
939
01:03:02,100 --> 01:03:04,840
It's the one that is most relevant today.
940
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:11,280
In the plural site in their infinite wisdom, and I use that very sarcastically, has retired
941
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:12,280
the course.
942
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,080
They've retired all my courses because they feel that they're dated.
943
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:20,920
This particular course, I don't feel it's dated because it's architecture based.
944
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,620
So how could it be dated?
945
01:03:22,620 --> 01:03:26,320
But even retired courses are still available on plural site.
946
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,040
They just don't come up in the immediate list.
947
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:33,460
But if anybody has a plural site subscription in the search my name, the course you're looking
948
01:03:33,460 --> 01:03:36,300
for is called Developing Extensible Software.
949
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:37,700
And I think you'll find it quite enjoyable.
950
01:03:37,700 --> 01:03:39,760
It was a lot of fun to put together.
951
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:44,040
And it will, it will give you a lot of details into the stuff that we've talked about today.
952
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,040
Yeah.
953
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:46,040
Awesome.
954
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:47,040
Yeah.
955
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,520
Then normally I give you the last words.
956
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:55,320
Those are my last words, man.
957
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:56,800
Thank you everybody for listening.
958
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:57,800
Yeah.
959
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,920
Thank you so much for spending your time with me and yeah, have a great rest day.
960
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:03,920
Thank you.
961
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:04,920
You got it.
962
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:05,240
Bye.
963
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:15,240
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