Conversations: Seduction or Strategy? The Very Real Cleopatra VII with The Partial Historians

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Speaker 1: Mmm, hello, this is let's talk about myths baby, and I am here yet again with another very exciting conversation episode. So this week I sat down with the two wonderful women in the Partial Historians, Dr Rad and Dr G and basically I just asked them to give me all the information they could in about an hour on the very real, badass Cleopatra the Seventh, the last Pharaoh of Egypt, and very controversial woman. She was the woman who led Egypt during its encounters with Julius Caesar, you know, the one. She might have had a little something with him, and then there was Mark Antony, and ultimately her story gets lost in the stories of those men. But fortunately today we have the Partial Historians to take it back. Tell us all everything about Cleopatra, the woman beyond these men, the truth of her that gets lost in pop culture and rumors and theory and nonsense, because ultimately she was a very real queen of ancient Egypt. Conversations, seduction or strategy, the very real Cleopatra the Seventh, the Partial Historians. Thank you, ladies so much. I'm here today with the Partial Historians to talk all about Cleopatra, who is one of the first real women I've covered on my podcast, and it seems very appropriate that we go with her. Technically Cleopatra the seventh, which I think is often forgotten. It's quite how many Cleopatra's there were before her, but she is the most famous one. Thank you so much for being with me, and basically we're here today for you guys to just kind of teach me and therefore also my listeners everything you want to about Cleopatra, because I personally don't know half as much as I would like. She is a fascinating case study. We are so excited to be here. That's Dr rad ductor AD by the way, and you're Dr gr G. Those are the two voices. So welcome. So Cleopatra, I think Dr D I think you should definitely stop because Cleopatra is one of your key women, as it were, in your life as a teacher. She is. Yes, I'm lucky enough to get to teach a little bit about her, and I must admit that actually, when I first started doing my PhD, it was initially going to be very heavily featuring Cleopatra in film. So I do have a special love affair with Cleopatra. But I won't start with the films this time, start with the basic biographical details. Alright, So Cleopatra the Seventh, as you rightly pointed out, is born into a pretty high drama family situation in that the Ptolemy's really are like the Kardashians of the ancient world. Don't you think dr G is a real mess, Like we don't know who Cleopatra's mother is asterisk, and we also don't know with her father, who's his mother is neither. It's actually a sense in which he was an illegitimate child who comes into power, and so the whole family is a bit of a mess. And Egyptian court politics seems to be all about maneuvering different groups of people against each other. And Cleopatra is one of five children, Yeah, all of whom seem fairly keen to have power or just given parrot at some point, which means that they're in constant rivalry with one another, which again is pretty normal for the Ptolemy's. You know, they like a bit of drama, just just another day of the office. Yeah, So when she is born, we're looking at sort of the mid first century BC. I think around sixty nine is what we're thinking of. And her father's reign is not always super secure. It is completely unstable. Yea, it is fair to say he rules for a really brief period of time before he gets chucked out and then he comes back in again. So there is this situation that he finds himself in m in the sort of the fifties b c. Where he gets overthrown by his eldest daughter, very nick, and so he has to leave Egypt in a bit of a hurry, ends up in Rome and it's like, guys, could you help me get my kingdom back? And they're like, sure, how much you're going to pay us? One million dollars? Yeah, he pays a lot of money to the Romans to to get it back from his daughter. So his daughter took it from him. Pay that to get it back from his daughter. I mean that's great, that's good stuff. Yeah. And once he gets it back, I mean, what else would you do to a misbehaving child but execute them? I mean there's no other way, there's and there is no way to deal with that. I mean, what are you going to do? Go to your room, I live in a palace. There's a punishment. Get into the desert now and stay there. It's from my room that I took the kingdom from you in the first place. Dad, face it, You're just not that cool. Yeah, so clear, if act you would have seen all of this happening, she would have seen the relationship her father develops with Room, the kind of relationship that it is is. She would have seen what happened when her sister trying to take power. We can only guess what kind of impact this would have had on her. It's fair to say, though, that there is a Roman presence in Egypt from the fifties onwards, because the army that Ptolemy and this is Ptolemy the twelve pays for ends up being garrisoned in Alexandria to make sure that he retains power now that he's paid for these Roman mercenaries essentially. Um, So there is a Roman presence in egypt' um during Cleopatra's early life, and some rumors have it that Anthony was part of that force. Yeah, so they met when she was a kid. Yeah, he sees her off in the distance when she's about sixteen apparently, and he's in his late late twenties. Um, And that might be a bit of a foreshadowing spark sparks, at least from his side. Yeah, I mean sixteen is I guess not as young as she could be for that world. I was kind of reassured by hearing sixteen about two said this is true. Is to be reassured. But like comparatively, no, we we all deal with ancient world subjects. We know how bad it could have been. Yeah, So essentially what ends up happening for Cleopatra is that when she's around the age of eighteen, her father dies and he leaves control of Egypt to herself. But also one of her younger brothers told me an unlucky number, so we'll turn out, Yeah, and very quickly. Things aren't going smoothly between the two of them. I mean, obviously they've got the whole brothers sister dynamic going on. You know, the kind of husband wife, brother sister vibe so common to Egypt, you know, the ptolemy, Yeah, exactly, they've they've picked that right off, right off, where the Egyptians left off. Um. But yeah, but they do not get along seemingly because told me, the thirteenth is surrounded by court advisors that are anti Cleopatra. He's actually very young as well, so we're talking about what ten eleven. I actually think he was about quite young, and so he doesn't he's not fully a ruler yet. He definitely has a regent and he has a whole bunch of court surrounding him as well. I mean they both do. But she's slightly older, a little bit more mature perhaps, um, but it seems that told Me is really open to the persuasion of his cabinet, which makes sense. He's a bit of a kid. Yeah, But it is a problem for Cleopatra. But it's also a problem for Rome because one of the things that their father does with his will is he says that he wants Cleopatra and told Me the thirteenth to rule jointly, and that the executors of his will in this case are to be the Roman people, which means he basically gives Rome the option to I'm into Egypt at any time after his death to sort out a situation if they need to. That seems ominous, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's definitely. That's definitely where we're going to insert this sound the sound effect, don't Yeah, I think you've just asked for some horrible thing that happened with that, Yeah, it does open the pathway for Rome to feel that they are legitimately going into Egypt whenever they turn up, and as we see throughout Cleopatra's career, they do turn up in a number of different ways. There's some famous instances, I would say, even even those I know. Yeah, and it happens fairly quickly because, as luck would have it, Rome is also engaged in a civil war around this time, Caesar and Pompey squaring off against each other. Caesar beats Pumpy, Pumpy runs away to Egypt, presumably where he's anticipating to regroup because he's had this relationship with Ptolemy the Twelfth, Cleopatra's father, in that he was one of the people that helped to shore up his reign when things were looking in credibly shaky. But unfortunately for him, when he turns up with his little entourage which includes his family, as he's walking towards the shore, he is famously decapitated. And it's we've seen that they did this because they were thinking that Caesar will Seeson won the civil war. Therefore, we want to please Caesar, not this loser famously decapitated as a great friend. Well, is he his head sends up in a jar. Caesar cry, Yeah, that's famous. Yeah, that's incredible, the classic head in a jar situation. And Cesar then adding extra salted water to that pool when he gets it and it's like, oh, plumpy little tears falling into the jar. His time, that it's time. Yeah. So Egypt in this weird situation because Cleopatra and told Me the Thirteen have not got it along and they're bickering about power. At the same time that that civil war that has broken out in homes, So there's both a civil war in Egypt and a civil war with Rome. And so Pompy turns up to in Egypt where he's not expecting it to be so out of control as it is. Yeah, he thinks it's a little bit more stable than the Roman situation. He doesn't realize until he gets there. It's far too late and he has no head left. And Cleopatra at that stage has run off because told Me has really started to dominate. His faction has risen to the top, and she's basically had to flee and to regroup with forces so that she can come back. And now we set the scene for of course one of the most famous moments of Cleopatra's life, which is when Caesar rocks up establishes himself in the palace of Alexandria and he's hanging out there recovering from the shock of finding Pompy's head in a job, when Cleopatrick decides now is the moment to try and you know, put her case to the Romans and do what her father did, I guess, and get reinstated, you know, with the with the backing of the Romans. And so she famously has herself smuggled into the palace in some form of cloth, either a rug or a pile of laundry, some kind of bag, a giant bag filled with clothes, yeah, and then brought into Caesar's room where she's like, it's like, excuse me, you may be impressed. It's a problem for Caesar though, because by the time she turns up in Alexandria and Caesar is in Alexandria as well. The situation with the Egyptian Civil War has also taken another turn, because it's not just Ptolemy sort of going for soul rule. It's also his other sister, a sin Away, who has also built a rival faction in Alexandria and is now threatening to steal his troops from underneath him by persuading the leader of them to come over to her side. Yes, so now there's no civil war, like a three way civil war. Yeah. Yeah, so it's pretty tense. You've got told me the thirteenth Cleopatra and Caesar all hold up in the palace in Alexandria, and you've got a sin away having snuck out of the palace and made her way to armed forces. Yeah, and she's basically holding the rest of the city outside the palace area of Alexandria. And this leads into what is known as the Alexandrian War. So it takes about a year. So he's almost dies on a couple of occasions while he tries to figure out how he's going to sort this situation. And in this time, at some point we are fairly certain that Season and Cleopatra get down to business. Another great sound effects. I mean, if you get smuggled into his room in some sort of cloth, I feel like you know something's bound to hoppen. It is sending a message, I suppose. Yeah, what can I offer you? It interested at the least definitely. And I mean, this is the thing you don't want to reduce Cleopatrick de sorts of moments, but it would it would make sense, according to ancient world stand as I think, for them to have struck a political deal and then to have kind of solidified that by forming a sort of personal relationship on top of that. Yeah. I mean, this is pretty standard in the ancient world, and the Romans are very used to it, and the Egyptians are very used to it. Whereas a liaison is a political engagement, and Cleopatra doesn't do things any differently from anybody else in this respect. She tries to shore up the deal. Um, she's luckily in the palace, so she has access to Caesar, and it seems that it goes well and a child is produced, um, and that seems and they do seem to get along. They go on this trip along the Nile, do they or do they after the Alexandrian War? Not, well, the war is happening, but apparently post war or do they? Yeah? Yeah, well, at some point definite, only a child is conceived and it seems fairly certain. That's so serious of father. And and this is significant because famously Julius. I keep saying that famously, famously Julius Caesar was not able to have a male with any of his legitimate Roman wives. Doesn't have the gear. Yeah, it's all Patras. She's clearly she knows. Yeah, I mean, that's clearly a strategy. Well, it seems like she's just very strategic in general. Like, I mean, of course, so many of these things have turned into sort of poor ideals of her or portrayals of her as if she's some sort of you know, seductor. But it seems to me it's more about strategic and knowing how to get the power you want versus you know, I mean, it's there's no harm I think in that world and taking advantage of the fact that you're a woman, so you hold less power or different power, so like usually yeah, and I think, yeah, I think there is a mutual wheeling and dealing happening between Season and Cleopatra that is often overlooked in popular imaginings of this these sorts of moments. Caesar also could really use the backing of Egypt, because Egypt, of course, is a potentially very wealthy area. You know, when things are going well, lots of grain you know, other precious resources. You know, it's it's a it's a good country to have on your side, especially if you've just thought a civil war. Yeah, and it's the sort of thing as well where I mean, it's this kind of thing where we maybe credit too much from hindsight, but there's no way that Cleopatra could anticipate that the child that she would have with Caesar would be a boy, which would be useful. Nobody gets to really choose those sorts of things. I mean, that's convenient, but the political alliance would probably stand anyway because of the strategic usefulness of Egypt being the bread basket as it comes to be known later on. But it's she also goes to Rome, so she does. She doesn't stay in Egypt even once the deal has been secured. Ostensibly, she does follow Julius Caesar back to Rome, and she does spend a couple of years in Rome rather than in Egypt. So that seems like a risky move considering the kind of court politics that we know takes place in Egypt. So she must have been pretty certain by the time she made that decision that she's really got no rivals left. Well, she's got she had a couple of years after after the Alexandrian War, she does have a little bit of time in Egypt sort of solidifying things while Caesar's off, you know, fighting other campaigns and that kind of thing, and he's making his own way home, and he has of course captured her sister a sin Away, so she's out of the way, and he's in stated her in power with her other younger brother who's even younger than told me the thirteenth, told me the fourteenth. He mysteriously disappears from the records not long afterwards. So I think she is feeling fairly secure because she's basically got no free sibling flesh because telling Met dies during the Alexandrian War, drowned in his own heavy armor. Great and yeah, great, and so yeah, all his siblings eventually are either imprisoned or debt or missingous circumstance. Yeah, but it seems like maybe Cleopatra does where they are. I think she may think much yeah, yeah, um, and so you're going to Rome obviously, and it is obviously so connected with Caesar, because he even apparently put up a statue of her in the Temple of Venus Genet tricks, which is obviously a big, big thing from Caesar because he claims to be descended from Venus, and that's the temple that he built to solidify he's claimed having a relationship with Venus. So to police Cleopatra in there that does ruffle some feathers. Cicero famously hate her and is very open about saying so, yeah, And I think I think this is really where we start to get the mythologization of Cleopatra happening, because she arouses strong feelings in the Romans from the start once she gets involved in their story, and they are of course writing history in the form that we we look at history these days, you know, narrative biographies, those kinds of things. They're writing those kinds of sources which the Egyptians aren't really producing at this point in time. So they kind of get to dictate the terms on which we see Cleopatra and how we meet her. And so I think it's during these sorts of moments, her interactions with Caesar and the nature of them and how they arouse for some people obviously they might be into it. Definitely. I think she started a bit of an Egyptian fashion craze amongst Roman women, but other people not into its definitely not happy. She does seem to be a polarizing figure, and it's it seems partly some of our source materials suggest that it's not much that she's like uber attractive, because that's one of the things that that sort of crops up as this kind of like misconception of Cleopatra. But one source in particular, and I can't remember off the top of my head, who, but maybe you will as I tell you about it, talks about her voice and the way that when she starts to speak, it's almost as if she's just so captivating to listen to, and she has such a command of her expression that she comes into a conversation and immediately changes the whole focus of it just by being there. And that's just kind of like an X factor. That's just a person with massive amounts of charisma, and there's not much you can do about that. You're either going to like her or you're going to find her effect on you to be like deeply troubling. And how do you respond to that? It tends to be there's no like in the middle of for that kind of that kind of or type of person. Yeah, absolutely, and she's also seems to be very intelligent. Plutak also tells us that she speaks several languages of Interestingly, Latin is not one of them, so presumably presumably it must have been Greek that they were chatting each other up in. Yeah. But unfortunately thickly a Patra and Caesar, let's face it, he gets stabbed today rather violently. That it's a bit awkward. Yeah, she does leave Rome at that point. She's like, you know, what had time for me to be here heading back to Egypt. Super awkward, guys, But I just got a phone call. Egypt needs me back again. There's nothing to do with the man who just killed, absolutely nothing to do with him. I would have left anyway, Yeah, yeah, I was thought of you guys. Let's face it, these parties are not cool. Yeah. So she goes back to Egypt and she's she's there for a couple of years, just you know, doing her own thing. And unfortunately, because she because of what she's doing isn't directly super concerning to the Romans, we don't get a lot of information about what she's up to at this point in time. You know, it's a little bits and pieces, but it's nowhere near his detail because she's not having sex with a Roman in general. So yeah, yeah, yeah, So we've got like a sort of about a three year period where we're not really sure what she's up to um and because again those Egyptian sources are not dealing with narratives in the same way that Roman and Greek sources are, we just sort of don't get too much of a of a picture. But she does turn up again in about four forty one BC, and she's in the East at that stage, and this is where she famously re meets Anthony, and Anthony, of course, is busy dealing with the aftermath of Caesar's assassination. So there's again division within rom itself. You've got Brutus and Cassius and their crew have been on the loose, whereas Anthony Octavian have been trying to track them down and kill them in revenge for what they did to Caesar. Yeah, and at this point it seems like Octavian and anti natural allies of Cleopatra because they're trying to avenge the murder of Caesar. So it's in her interest to sort of check out what's going on um and try to figure out where she might fit in with that, and they do seem pretty grateful for her offer of assistance. Well, she had actually been approached by the other side, and she she's quite strategic in the way she handled it, and she's like, I'm coming, I'm coming. I've totally got some stuff on your way. It's in the mail. Oh, it should be there by now, you know what, check your tracking number. You know, you got to chase that up. Is this a situation with Dollabella because there is a moment where she's kind of she gets she has to backtrack a lot with everybody because people are expecting her to turn up, and she's made some promises to all sides um as a way of just sort of like keeping the strategy afloat so she can adjust and change. It seems as as things pan out and people are expecting her places and she's not able to be there, and she has to talk a lot about how we got caught in a storm, you know, the wind changed and we weren't able to leave. And there's elements of truth to all of those kinds of statements, but there also seems to be elements of strategy about them as well, being like, definitely, of course I'll be I'm so sorry it just didn't work out. The weather, the weather, Yeah, it might be a goddess, but I can't control the weather. Yeah. But eventually, eventually she does throw her through her hat in the ring with Anthony and Octavian. Definitely, Yeah, Anthony and Octavian have got this alliance happening. And Anthony, now that Bruce and Cassius are dealt with, he's thinking that he's going to pick up where Caesar had left off just before season was assassinated. He was thinking he was going to go on a campaign against the Great Party and Empire. So Anti decides that's what he's going to do. And of course he needs resources in order to do this, and so Cleopatra would be the natural porticole for him. Yeah. Absolutely So in forty one b C. We have another very famous moment if you are a fan of Cleopatra films, which is the meeting of Cleopatra and Anthony at Tarsus Ah. Yes, and this gets lots of traction in films. Um it's kind of a great moment because she does arrive with what appears to be a pretty fancy barge. Um. She's really kind of like hitting all of the high notes of like I'm an Egyptian goddess, not just the Pharaoh, not just the Queen of Egypt. I am isis in the flesh, perfumes, entertainment, the whole, the whole shebang. Yeah. And she at this stage, she's only about twenty two. Oh my god, he's so young. She knows how to make an entrance. Oh yeah, yeah. And Anthony, Anthony at this stage is about thirty six, and he just like falls off his horse, like, oh my god, it's that chick that I rushed on years ago in Egypt. So she decides to strike a deal with Anthony that she would help him if he agrees to kill all her rivals, including her sister, who is still out there living in exile. Oh yeah, So Auson always word hold up in Ethesis, which is quite nearby Tassus. She's like, well, since you're here Ans either way, you could prove that you really like me, since it seems like you say you do, maybe you could help me out with this situation. So that happens, and but unfortunately Anthony can't start his campaign straight away, which means that he has to winter with Cleopatra and they get to spend a little bit of quality time together. This is like a great moment, So like the winter in Alexandria. Apparently Anthony treats this like a real holiday, a holiday from being Roman. By all reports, He's like, you know what, I like Greek dress, I'm interested in this food you've got going on, the culture. I'm going to hang out with the philosophers, not going to do politics. Just want to learn and hang out, you know, chill. Yeah, and of course at this point we presume they become lovers. Yeah. Unfortunately Anthony is actually married. That is awkward. Yeah, he's married to one of the most amazing women in Roman history. Fulvia doesn't appreciate what he's got at all. Unfortunately, Fulvia and his brother Lucius decided that they're going to kick off a civil war with Octavian whilst he's in Alexandria. So he has to leave clear Patrick and deal with that whole situation and calm everything down, because things are looking very tense and very shaky for the Anthony Octavian alliance at this point in time that is becoming increasingly diesy. Yeah, and in forty BC they strike the Treaty of Brundusium, and part of that deal where they kind of renew their promises to each other and what they're going to do with each other is that and he has to marry Octavian's sister Octavia. Ah. Yes, but that's a marriage that has interesting consequences as well, because it's not like he really gives up on Cleopatra doing all of this. No, No, it does seem to be very much a political marriage. So is he Is he not married to Fulvia anymore? Or they're just kind of saying, like, fun her because she's starting a civil war, so you have to marry a different woman. She actually died not long after. Yeah, So when Anthony comes to deal with the whole situation that she and Lucius have caused, he is absolutely furious with her, and she had just been trying to look out for his interests in her own mind. And it almost seems as though she dies of a broken heart because he is so angry with her. Probably not, probably not, but she is absolutely devastated. He is so furious with her, and then she dies. So yeah, m hmmm, it's a bit of a sad ending for someone who is truly legendary. Yeah. So meanwhile, while thought this has happening, of course, Cleopatra has just given birth to twins. She's like, wow, they're Anthony's children. Yeah, and they are adorably named Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene. So the same cute, cute and also presumptive. Yeah, that's the kind of naming system only a god ask and get. Yeah, exactly, like a little much. Yeah, they are the children of Isis. So Cleipatra goes about her business. You know, she's got her kids, she's got her kingdom, she's striking some good deals for Egypt. She seems to be doing a pretty good job because I think it's kind of interesting to think, but it seems that a Clepatra wasn't always actually very popular with her in people pally when she very first came to power, and it's probably to do with the legacy of her dad and you know, all the in fighting they've been going on. But the longer she reigns, the more it seems like she's winning people over, because she does seem to be making moves to safeguard the prosperity of Egypt. You know as much as she can. Yeah, and it seems that her deals are pretty strategic. And she also gets some credit from some of our sources for learning to speak Coptic as well. Um. So she does go out of her way to learn the language of the Egyptian people, and this means that she's doing something that other Ptolemy's haven't bothered to do, which puts her in a new category. Even though it's kind of like desperate times, um, for her and for Egypt and for the whole sort of foronic structure, she's definitely making a play to set this up for stability, and she's got a few kids in the wings for that now. Um. And Anthony really does agree for his children to take a backseat as well, so he becomes more invested in that over time, and he lets Julius Caesar's child take the top rank amongst those children. Makes it really clear that his children a second rank within that structure, which is the interesting as well very unusual for a Roman man. They don't usually take the back I think Anthony might have been a special man. Yeah. So it's it's around thirty seven b C. When Anthony and Cleopatra come into contact with one of that again, because Anthony is once again thinking about Parthia. Yeah. So he and Octavia leave Rome, setting out get to get ready for the campaign. Octavia, however, is pregnant and doesn't feel particularly well, and so she gets sent home. She doesn't get to go all the way to Egypt, which is perfect timing. But Anthony was like, yes, freaking love morning sickness. Yes. And so when they meet again, Cleopatra does not just fall into his arms, Anthony, you come back to me at last. She has some requests for some territory. Yeah. Absolutely, And of course Anthony is like, yeah, yeah, sure, no problems. She was like, you know, when you get into Parthia, these are some of the hunks that I'd like. Yeah, And he's like, right you are, miss Yeah. So they again winter together. In thirty six, Anthony is ready to embark on his campaign finally, the years in the making. The campaign unfortunately is a complete disaster. Cleopatra has to come and totally bail him out. Yeah, once again solidifying their relationship. I kind of love that he's kind of like just this, like a lovabill do. First he was like, I'll do it for you, and she was like yeah, you're better, and then he's like half an hour later, or could you bring those extra ships because I kind of sucked it up, Like sure, honey. Yeah. So it seems like he retires, probably planning to go and deal with the Parthians again and try and redeem his honor, but unfortunately there's another situation which has arisen and demands his attention. It so often seems to happen. He has to go and deal with sexist Pompeius. He's causing all sorts of havoc. Okay, and then pause, pause, Yeah, sexist Pompeius is hugely important. Let us not forget. He the son of Pompey the Great, the guy who got his tape in a job, and he's been piste off at the whole situation with Rome ever since then. Essentially, so he is very against Caesar because he believes that Caesar is kind of responsible for the whole situation that his dad got into because of that civil war. And then Caesar gets stabbed, and then Octavian and Anthony are on Caesar's side, and he's like, I'm not having any of that, and he basically builds a rebel force of pirate ships and sails through the Mediterranean, causing trouble for everybody for years. And he's hanging about with all of your sailing ships and he's like, screw your room, screw you all. I want to deal, I want to cut and he to me, I'm going to take all the cash. Yeah, this is He's like, this is what zero fox looks like for room. I give zero fox. Screw you wall. And he's often often skipped over, but I don't want to skip over him. I was once again going to be side attracted by the grand romance of Anthony and Cleopatra and totally forget about the pirate captain. The pirate captain. I'm very glad I heard about the pirate But he has been causing trouble um, and they do have to deal with him. And at some point they decide that they actually need all of their forces combined in order to deal with sexist Pompeius because he has just caused so much trouble. One way or another, Anthony ends up back in Alexandria after dealing with sexist Pompeis and all the pirate ships. Yeah, and all the pirate ships and all that kind of stuff, and it's around um, it's around thirty four b C that we get a very big moment which really I think is a turning point for this whole story, and that is the donations of Alexandria. Yeah. So it's where Anthony and Cleopatra put on this huge show. It's the party to end all parties. Yeah, it's it's huge, all his pageantry, and Anthony kind of just divides up all his territory and bestows it on Cleopatra and all the children. Now I should point out this is not land that he actually has any right to give anyone, doesn't really own any of it. No, he's not master of the universe. And these places actually have rulers already, doesn't Yeah, don't worry about that. We'll figure out the fire print later. The important thing is that you've got to have them. Yeah. So it's definitely you can definitely see this sort of structured thing with Clepatra and Anthony at the top, and then you've got Cesarian, and then you've got Anthony and Cleopatra's children underneath that or having their own little real in this like monster dynasty that they seem to be creating. Yeah, and so this is where the moment comes where Cleopatra is heralded as the Queen of kings Um and then yeah, and the new isis like reborn. It's like she's fully come into her own and it's this sort of grand gesture. I think of just how much he might be, like completely in love with her by this point that seems like, I mean, from a political standpoint, this is crazy. This is Bonker's stuff for him to be doing. So you have to think at some point that maybe he's turned from like being politically strategic to just be I'm all in. Yeah. I think after this point he could definitely justify his relationship with Clearpatcher, Like when when his Ram and buddies were like, hey, do you like what's up with you? And Clearpatcher like, well, Ochavy is not good enough for you. You don't like room anymore. And he'd be like, guys, guys, got this whole under control. Just using this chick so I can get some resources for parting. You know what I'm saying. Egypt is really strategic and if I have the backing, will definitely be able to take the East. Yeah, it's about the rain. Yeah, but no, at this point, at this point it's pretty clear that things have shifted for him, and the Romans are all over this, and Octavia in particular is kind of like, that's it. I'm done with this. This guy has lost it. He is an embarrassment to Rome and we just cannot have this continue. And of course this is also I admit, an insult to his sister, who has born Anthony children by this stage as well, and they are still married. Like what is he doing? Oh yeah, because there's like the third they have a third child at some point as well. Anthony Clepatri have a third child. But Anthony and Octavia have two children together. The man is busy. He's doing a lot of business, yeah, stretching himself. But also it's like, so that's a lot of traveling between Rome and Egypt, Like, I mean, the Mediterranean is pretty big. Yeah, let us let us see to spread Yeah, got to be on the ground to do the business like modern day. Yeah. So this is definitely the moment when again things start to shift, I think for Cleopatra in terms of the way that Rome wants to deal with her. So now she's really quite scary and threatening because a man at the top of his game, you know, he's got a reputation as a good general. You know, he's got the connection to Caesar. He's really ruling, ruling the Roman world alongside Octavian, and yet he is willing to make these sorts of crazy political moves for Cleopatra. And this is where we start to get the kind of attraction but also I think really crippling terror at the power that Cleopatra must have over someone like Anthony. You know that the seduction, the potential for seduction that she has. Yeah, and this kind of calls into relief all of the people in Rome that already knew her from her previous encounters and the time that she spent there, and if they didn't take to her, then they've turned on her by this point. And this is a really strategic play for Octavian at this point as well, because he can reclassify the situation as an external war. From Rome's perspective, they have to take out Cleopatra. She is the danger, rather than making it a civil situation where going after Antony is just a perpetuation of the civil unrest that Rome has been experiencing for years. Now, they can turn it into what they like to call the just war, and you're like, well, she just needs to go. So you've got you've got a lot of mythologizing and clear passion that's going on all throughout this time. Obviously, the moment she's become queen, she's producing her own propaganda, you know, some target mostly target obviously towards like her Egyptian subjects and that sort of thing. But she's putting out her own image and creating her own image there. But then the more that she's entwined with Anthony, the more that they start creating their own propaganda of them as a couple. So, you know, Queenage with them featured on it together and again notoriously, Cleipatriot really does not look great on these coins. So it's a kind of propaganda. But yeah, they're they're producing their own kind of propaganda. And then you've also got Octavian who's coming after her because she can now be the target. Um, she can be the bat that he's going to use to beat Anthony to death. And so he really drums up the fact that this is a foreigner, this is a woman in political power, this is against everything Rome stands for. Yeah, it kind of hits all of those notes that Romans are perpetually afraid of um, foreigners and women. I mean, that's basically it. Rome cannot handle that either of those things. They have power both so horrifying, horrifying, How did it all happen? And because Anthony really is like I'm all in and everyone's like, wow, you really emasculated yourself, bro, that's kind of like the Roman take on everything. As soon as a woman is involved in a powerful sense, Um, they just kind of turned into that sort of like sogynistic kind of phraseology. And part of our issue, um, when thinking about Cleopatra and the way that she's portrayed in the source material, is that Octavian ends up winning this war, and all of the sources then written from that point onwards come with his kind of sort of approval tacit lee, you want to keep that guy happy, And that then really cements Cleopatra in this negative light as this seductress and this person who cannot be controlled, and she's able to turn men against their own country, you know, and the idea that Anthony's masculinity has been completely stripped away in his willingness to do anything that she asked. As far as the romans are concerned. This is like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a I and Si Cleopatra has to be the one to blame. It's always woman's fault. If we know anything from my podcast is it's always the woman's fault. Absolutely, And this would be this is always be interesting for you because obviously I'm sure the Need is something that's attracted your attention, you know, kind of it. But a reminder to my listeners who have listened to my twelve part over a whole year covering of the indian Um, Octavian is Augustus. So that's Octavianus, his name before he takes the role of his emperor, and then he is Augustus. So every time if we're talking about Octavian here, that is the same man that I have complained about in the Idiot. Yeah, exactly. And the need, the need could really be seen to be telling this kind of a story because it's all about this Trojan prince who falls into a passionate love affair with an African queen the different sing Unlike Anthony, he does his duty, he does what he's supposed to. He leaves her, He leaves her and it's like, whatever, dude, throw yourself into a pie. I think I can. Why weren't you talk to me? I came all the way to the underworld. So that all this propaganda that's coming out during and after Cleopatra's um, you know, final like showdown and during Augustus reign, it is very clearly sending this message that Anthony did not do the proper masculine Roman thing. Yeah, and we see this coming through in a lot of the sources that are close to this period in time. So one of the ones that I looked at in the lead up to this chat today was Horace's Odes book one thirty seven, which is looking at Cleopatra and it's just it's all negative. Um. He really throws her to the dogs in that poem. He was like, this is a great victory. Now it's time to drink. We've gone down there, We've conquered everything. The witch is dead. It's all this kind of like all the negativity all bound up in one single poem, and you're just like, wow, ro really, thanks a lot, louvely please. Yeah, And I think I think this is important. It's an important moment to note as well that when you look at the things that happened up until acting in you can see how Cleopatra probably wasn't super concerned about starting with Anthony over Octavian. I mean, Anthony was really the one who presented himself to her as the opportunity. So I'm not saying that she actually had a choice and she's like, I'll take this one. But Anthony doesn't seem like a stupid choice because he does have a political career behind him that's relatively solid. I mean, he's not the most amazing person you've ever met, but it's relatively He has the more solid military reputation for sure. Out of the two of them, he's the safer that he's the one that's campaigned for a long time with Caesar. He has that sort of the older, older statesman quality about him. Octavian is, Yeah, Octavian is a real upstart and nobody knows anything about him. Really. He's nine team when Caesar is murdered, So he's younger than Cleopatra. Yeah, he's an unknown quantity really, and so for her to pick Anthony is really reasonable. Um. And yeah, as you say, it's not until we get into the Battle of Actium in thirty one, where things take a really disastrous turn that it becomes clear that maybe Anthony doesn't have this in the bag in the way that she thought he might have. And there's a huge amount of debate about exactly what happened during that battle because Cleopatra leaves during the battle. I mean, Anthony's Roman supporters weren't really happy at her being there at all and her being involved in the planning of this final campaign, but she puts her foot down. It's like, guys, I'm putting up the money um staying. But she leaves part way through the battle and Anthony follows her, and this is still one of those I think difficult to figure out. Yeah, because we're in the realm of sort of like naval tactics at this point, and it's going to be I think it's going to be always difficult for us to know what was happening there, because it seems like these things can change pretty quickly at sea, and also if you're on a ship as part of the battle, your ability to read what is happening in that battle is pretty limited. And it seems like, for whatever reason, she's decided that it's a prudent idea to pull out, and at that point Anthony has also has seen her leave and it's been like, okay, we need to pull out as well. It's not clear whether they were going to lose the battle and that was a good strategic move for them, or whether they left too soon and that ended up ensuring the loss. That's not clear, but certainly once that happens, Anthony has effectively lost all credibility in his random and supporters eyes. Yeah, and there were a whole bunch of senators that did come down to Egypt and came to Anthony prior to this, and they're like, where with you? We think Octavian has gone too far. Um, he's not behaving in a Roman way. He's setting things up in a way that we think is dangerous and he Anthony leans into that. But Actium doesn't go well, and that defeat is kind of crucial for everything from that point onwards. Yeah. And so Anthony and Cleopatra do have some time left to spend together and they love Yeah, they do. They do make the most of it. They they have a lot of parties, you know, they enjoy their time remaining to them. I can only think although there's no evidence about this that Cleopatra knowing full well what Octavian would want to do with her once he comes, and you know, he'd want to put her in a triumph, just like Caesar had done with her sisters. In a way, I can only imagine that Cleopatra was already prepared not to go down that path. Yeah, we're not really Again, we can't be sure. That's one of those is that we can't really be sure about it, because this leads into one of those great sort of mythological moments about Cleopatra as well, which is the death by snake bite, which absolutely cannot be verified. We know that there are snakes in Egypt, that's true. How long it would take you to die and how that death would happen and how prepared you'd have to be to make that work is another thing. Um, we're just not sure. And and Anthony gets he goes first, so he commits suicide when it seems like this is going to go Octavian's way, and Cleopatra holds out and it seems like maybe she thinks that there might be some options for negotiation here and it's worth finding out what they are. And when it becomes clear that that's not the case. She also commits suicide. Yeah. I think she was prepared for that. I think she always had that as like an option. Yeah. And we get some interesting sort of like stories around this that um and some of which are sort of would into later films as well, where the Romans trying to negotiate with her through a door she's locked in a pretty secure chamber. Uh, And while she is discussing it with somebody through the door, one are the other Romans comes around the back way um and sneaks in. Stuff like that. Those kinds of stories happen, And so you're like, okay, well, her chances of setting up the snake situation, that's all a bit tenuine. It seems like would be a lot of work for something that she could have done in a much less difficult and troubling way. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that she could have done which would have involved snakes is drinking the venom, which would have been potentially a lot easier. That's scary, it's horrifying. It's all horrifying, rather than encouraging the snake to bite you, I mean, come on, yeah. Yeah. But but Octavian of course winsterday. She commits the side is the last pharaoh to rule Egypt because Octavian makes Egypt his special personal playground, which which ill remain for pretty much all of the Julia accordions. Yeah, he decides to make it a annexed promins of Rome and puts it on his personal control, doesn't institute any king to sit in there, gets rid of all the children. Yes, well, well, well the children with the children that Cleopatri and Anthony had, those second tier children are but they're feeling pretty happy that they were second tier now because they aren't killed. They take them back to Rome. They're taken back to Rome and they're actually raised by Octavia. Yeah really, yeah, and they and they're subsequently married off into various the things that woman does for Anthony, he does not approiate. Yeah, that they become they become like royals in other parts of the world eventually, you know, when they're old enough. But the one that he's really concerned about, of course, is Cesarian. Caesarian does not escape with his life. Cesarian represents a threat to everything that Octavian has now built about his own reputation um as being the heir to Caesar, so that kid's got to go. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, And so Octavian gets to kind of cement his version of things and the accounts that we have that we have. We have the poetry, as you mentioned from you know, Virgil, propercious Horace. You know, we've got all of that coming out of Augustus' own reign and lifetime. But then we've also got people like Plutarch and Appian who were writing later, and we've got bits and pieces about Anthony and Cleopatra's affair, in particular Caesar, it does come up, but it's definitely more Antony and Cleopatra that gets the most attention. You got a little bit on her in the sources like Sutonius as well in the biographies he writes of Julius Caesar, and and these sorts of source materials are inspire artworks, They inspire plays by Shakespeare, and they become the base for a lot of nineteenth century work about Cleopatra and then eventually films about Cleopatra. And so when we get into the twentieth century and the twenty one century, the clear patra that we see tends to be the other, the foreigner, the woman. You know, we we really focus on those qualities, the seductress, all those things that were elements of the propaganda that Octavian crafted, or really what we tend to see in our popular culture of clear Patra when there is actually a rival source tradition that comes out of the Arabic world. It is a bit it is problematic in its own sense in that it comes much much later, what I mean, what we have surviving anyway, but it has some really fascinating details, and it tends to focus less on her appearance and her relationships with men. It focuses much more on what she actually did in her lifetime, um, so public works for her kingdom, things that she wrote, works of science and medicine and also beauty. Um. But yeah, it's it's really interesting that there is such a different tradition out there, and yet it really hasn't made much impact so far in the popular culture in the way that we represent clear passion, and even the sources that we have that are more contemporaneous from when she's alive get as much traction. So we do have a text called the Alexandrian War, which we don't know the author of, but it tends to be connected with Caesar and his writings, and it goes into details which are political, and we're looking at the way that she's maneuvering, and it just doesn't tend to get that much airtime. The thing that has happened is that we get we hit Shakespeare, and Shakespeare seems to have really enjoyed plutarch Um, and that's that's one of his key sources, and so everything from that point takes that sort of second century Greek moralistic biography tradition and really runs with it. And once we're into that sort of thinking about it in terms of morality and the framing of things as character flaws rather than just like things that are happening in people's lives, then we start to see that Shakespeare really plays off that and it becomes its own sort of beast when it gets into film and also opera, and then of course with popular culture that is blended with whatever is happening at the time. Yeah, and I think it would be Yeah, we wouldn't want to overlook like the way in which Cleopatra has an ambiguity about her ethnicity, which has really meant that she accrues a lot of popularity from different sections of society who want a piece of her, And the fairest way to put it is that we just don't know. So she has that flexibility um in ambiguity because we don't know who her mother is for sure. We also don't know who her father's mother was, So there's enough ambiguity in the lineage that she sort of can be taken as a Macedonian Greek, she can be claimed as an Egyptian, she can be claimed as an African, and she has this sort of plurality about her because we don't know. She has this sort of fascination. I think when we're thinking about women who powerful and how they get there and what they do with that power when they have it, and I think there's something to be said as well for our cultures, we tend to be drawn back to stories where women failing in this sort of tragic romantic way is a very appealing story to us, if we If we look at the tradition of biopics as as a genre throughout the twentieth century, when film becomes a medium, stories about women with power tend to be stories about women who fail, who try and have it all or you know, whatever they have. There's something that interferes with their being able to have it all. Like that's the that's the setup for the failures. Yeah, and even with royalty, it's always like a choice between do I do my duty or do I give give myself over to my heart? And we we tend to like those sorts of stories, and Clapatrick fits really nicely into that kind of a storytelling tradition, even though it seems that like when you look at it, she's really just making strategic decision on strategic decision and it's really perhaps the men around her who are maybe not making a strategic decisions as they could and it works out in her favor. And I think that's interesting as well, because I don't think her story is a narrative of failure. Obviously, it's tragic that she is the last pharaoh of Egypt, but that's kind of not her fault. Yeah, I don't see that, as you know, you can't hold her responsible for that. No, she seems to have been I mean, certainly doing her best to not be the last pharaoh of Egypt, but also just yeah, the level of strategy and power and just intelligence that she brought to everything. This has been the most fascinating thing I've ever sat through. But like, I mean, there's just so little in the focus on her when it comes to the things she accomplished beyond the men she slept with and what happened afterwards. Yeah, and when you when you look at what we've actually got documented evidence for, Cleopatra only slept with two men in her entire life, and she died when she was about our age. Yeah, And so I mean it's not to say that she, you know, she was a queen. It's not to say that she didn't have other lovers, But in terms of what we can actually document, this idea of her as some great seductress, she had too pretty solid, long term relationships with two men. They just happened to be some of the most famous Roman men to ever have lived. It's just a coincidence and just just like they happened to sleep with one of the most famous Egyptian queens to ever have lived. It's just one of those things. Well, and it's political strategy, right, It's not like, yeah, you know, it's all about keeping herself alive and in power, and I mean it is and it is it is a fascination and what she can offer in a visual medium, I think as well. Like one of the earliest silent films to be made about Cleopatra starred an actress called theater Bara, and Theodo Bara was a studio made confection. She she's literally where we get the term vamp from, Okay, because she she played she she was kind of typecasts as these characters who were women whose seduction powers were so great that they would literally suck the life force from men. That's what a vamp is. It's short for vampire. And it's because she played those sorts of roles that they thought she'd be perfect to play the role of Cleopatra. Her name was meant to be an anagram of Arab death, and they were all sorts of studio she was. She was just she was just a Jewish girl from like the Midwest, and they created this whole story about how she was born in the eyes of the sphinx, suckled on the milk of it. It was. It was crazy, yeah, but they created this this very you know, it's very dangerous, sexually appealing studio star, and then she was the one they wanted to play Cleopatra. And I think this is this feeds into the really problematic way that al sort of like underlying triarchical narratives tend to shape the storytelling as well, because it's kind of in a way dismissing her strategy and her capacity for politics to be able to sort of like chalk her up as like, oh, well, you know, she's the one who's with all the romans, you know, because it means that you don't have to deal with the hard reality that she was fighting tooth and nail one for power. She overcame all of her siblings. Um, that was a fight of some magnitude. It involved wars, It involved her having to kill all of her siblings and finding ways to do away with siblings afterwards as well, and then holding on tooth and nail for power, um in whatever way seemed reasonable with the options that she had in front of her at the time. Yeah. And I think the other thing is as well, there have been I think attempts to Maybee try and shift that a little bit, like the nine three Clepatra. I actually really like that. I know, I know it's got a bad rapp and I know that not everybody thinks Elizabeth Taylor is a great Cleopatra. I actually love it, and I think it's because initially that was actually I mean, coming in the sixties, it's obviously, you know, women are starting to get a bit more freedom. You know, it's on the on the verge of second wave feminism, um. And originally it was meant to be two films, Caesar and Cleopatra and Anthony and Cleopatra, and there was going to be a lot more room to show Cleopatra off in that format. She was meant to come across as a political visionary. They really wanted to open that side of her up, and I think you can still see remnants of that, like when she has moments with Caesar where they really are envisioning this world that they're going to rule over together. But unfortunately it was such a mess the film. The script wasn't finished when they started filming. It was you know, there was all sorts of drama, obviously, with Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor getting together in real life and the their relationship was exceptionally violent. You know, there were times when they had to take time of filming because Elizabeth Taylor had been injured in domestic violence incidents. She had already almost died anyway, and had had a tracheotomy when they were back. When they were filming in England, there was all this drama going on, and of course Burton and Taylor were both married, so there was there other spouses to deal with. So all of that kind of ended up taking over a little bit, and it ended up costing a huge amount of money. It cost about forty four million dollars in in that time, of which Elizabeth yea, of which Elizabeth Taylor got about half for her salary and her living expenses while she was there. Um, and so there was the most astronomical film, and the expense meant that it really couldn't turn back. What you know, it kind of did okay, but it could never earn a massive profit because it just cost so much to make, and they ended up just sort of chopping it into one film, and a lot of Anthony's story and a lot of clear Patra's story ended up therefore on the cutting room floor because it was like nine hours and they had to cut it down to like two and a half. So it's really interesting. I haven't actually seen it, and I probably should. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would recommend, but also like have snacks because it's like even now, it's about four hours. Yeah, yeah, they've they've they've they've restored it. They've restored it. So yeah. But there is a fantastic scene which is my absolute favorite. I'm going to re enact it, when when Cleopatra and Anthony have been apart from some time and he's run off and married Octavia. They show this as being your devastating for Cleopatra, which who knows it might have been you never know. But when he comes back to ask for her help again, she is standing there, you know, she she's sitting there, you know, all her Egyptian Faronic regalia, looking amazing because I don't care anything that says a little tailor is gorgeous. And he makes his request and she says, you will kneel? I will what on your knees? You dare ask a representative of the Roman Empire to kneel before you? I asked, you know, Julius Caesar, I demanded of you. So dialog. It's amazing. You've probably at our pretty actual scene and the enemy reenacting, but this is amazing. I love it. You've convinced me, and of course we don't know where the Galgado film is going to go. That will be absolutely fascinating. Yeah, it'll be interesting what her future holds. Nobody knows. There's so many, so many interpretations of her. I mean, Katie Perry's done her, Beyonce has done her well, honestly, I mean I've just been sitting in awe throughout this whole thing. I'm so glad I asked you to do this, and that me just saying give me a rundown on Cleopatra in general produces like a wildly fascinating hour about Cleopatra. So thank you both so much for doing this. This is such a perfect episode for Women's Month, but also just generally dipping into really important historical women, which I so rarely get to do. So thank you so much. Thank you always happy to tell Cleopatra so glad. So why don't we tell everyone where they can listen to your podcast where you do this about so much more Roman history. Oh yes, well you can find the Partial Historians wherever you listen to excellent podcasts. And we're also on a variety of social media. We're on Twitter, We're on Instagram, we're on Facebook. Facebook is a little bit proper. Yeah, maybe don't come to our Facebook because we're in Australia and Facebook is trying to do some things with legislation, um in terms of our government at the moment, and we got locked out basically like a week. Um yeah, because apparently Roman history is still newsworthy according to So you got cold and news organization and I got Tromp, so you know, I mean, old news is good news from one Anthony has not Clear Patri classes keep lushes. But we're also very excited. We've also just started launching some artwork which we're making in collaboration with Bridget Clark, which is going to be about some pretty fascinating women from the ancient world, probably including clear patri at some point. So yeah, if you like having some interesting ancient artwork on your walls, do you come and check it out? Yes, I this is recording a couple of weeks before this episode will actually come out, but I just reposted your Instagram of that because I saw the Agrippina and that's amazing. That's so exciting that you're doing that. So I'll be posting more of it. Thank you. Agripins at first our first casualty, but Crepator is definitely in our science. Thank you so much for having us as well. Thank you. This has been so wonderful, So everyone please go subscribe to the Partial Historians and follow them everywhere for more just women podcasting, but women podcasting about badass women in history and mythology. I think we all made more of it. Yeah, uh, nerds, Thank you all for listening. As usual, this was such a fun episode to record. I mean, frankly, not so much conversation as just me being like, hey, ladies, can I just have a full history lesson in Cleopatra? And boy was I not disappointed. I am so excited I had the Partial Historians on to come and just basically give us a full blown rundown of Cleopatra. I couldn't have been more fascinated and I learned so much, so I hope you all did. To Cleopatra, I think is really important and she's also really misunderstood and we can always learn to know a bit more about her. You should make sure you are subscribed to the Partial Historians podcast follow them on social media. Dr Rad and Dr G are doing really great work in podcasting and I highly recommend you check them out. Thank you all again. I hope you're enjoying these wonderful Women's Month episodes. They are such a thrill, and there is more bonus episodes coming up. You are all the best. I am live and I love this ship.