WEBVTT
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Equity does not mean that everyone succeeds.
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It means that we cannot predict who will succeed and who will fail based on our demographics.
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So I think that's just something to hold on to as we think about equitable grading.
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Doesn't mean, oh, now all my kids are going to get A's because I've changed my grading practices.
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That's not what it means, I guess.
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Welcome to Learning Out Loud, where we get curious about all things teaching and learning.
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I'm Stefan, a regional technology coach, here with Andy, a regional math coordinator, and Carrie, a regional science coordinator.
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We're just three educators on a mission to dig into what works, what doesn't, and what we're still figuring out.
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This podcast is for teachers, coaches, and leaders who want to grow in their professional practice.
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We don't have all the answers, but we're asking the questions and recording the process.
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Let's go to work.
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So let's we'll get going here.
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And again, I'm gonna say it for record.
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Now we're rolling, okay?
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Shout out to all the folks fighting fires out there in all across Washington.
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And if if you wonder down the road why Carrie is not here, it's because she's evacuating.
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And Stefan's child is running around.
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So it might just be me at the end because I'm here by myself today.
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But, anyways, uh, no, we're gonna we're gonna talk about grading for equity by Joe Fieldman.
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We're gonna be using the second edition, and um, our first conversation is gonna be brief, or our listening will be around the prologue.
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And um, of course, we're all prepared with different editions.
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So, Carrie, Stephan, and I have all different versions and different editions of the of the text.
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So, we're gonna do our best on this first one and get it all together by our second one that we're all in the same edition.
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We can reference the same page number.
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And our first prompt for this prologue is gonna be this an aha that you may see and a wondering you have, and interact with that and down in the discussion boards on this uh canvas course.
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But for me, this is like a I'm gonna have a a wondering.
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Can I have a ha wondering?
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You're you combined yours into one?
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Well, I merged.
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So here hear me out here, and then I'll pass it off to it.
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It's just a synonym of combined.
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Okay, this topic, you know, is is really personal, right?
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Grading and evaluating people, and so and and all the variabilities off the chart with when we talk about it.
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So we're all gonna be coming on different journeys and different areas, and that was like like my wondering as you start reading these stories, which I love the read how how he writes, like I love the stories, the connections, because I then I put my place myself in that spot.
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I'm like, oh gosh, or the quotes that he includes with their teachers, like, oh gosh, I have thought that, I've said that, anyways.
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But all throughout, like, you know, all these these areas that that's why it's so important to read the book or follow along with us and read this text.
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But um, you know, when it's really personal, and so I had this idea when this to kind of keep it big for my uh wondering is that you know, when you notice something in a grading and this this Mallory's dilemma of this principle going in and talking about grading practices, but where they started to change or to have the conversation with just that idea of like what what are we what do we value in this situation?
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What are we gonna try to, what questions about the data, what is it really telling us, versus trying to change a practice right out of the gate?
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That's kind of where I was that that prologue got me thinking about okay, this is really personal, because it's as a teacher, it's my connection really with the kids and the parents and inside the the homes of my of my students.
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Um, but it's also a way to kind of think about what are what are the pieces that we're really asking in, you know, how do we look at it as an exploration versus just like a concrete like do X, Y, and Z, etc.
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So Yeah, is the data we're collecting from our grades giving us the information that we need to make decisions about student learning?
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Is that the okay?
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Yeah.
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That's a probably that's probably a quote in your uh book somewhere, I would imagine.
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I mean, that's in the if it sounded that good, then it probably is.
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I was just trying to summarize what you said.
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So that sounded good.
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Yes, capture that, let's let's put that somewhere exactly.
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No, thanks, Stefan.
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That's as you were talking, Andy.
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That's what when you you said um, what are we evaluating?
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What is the goal?
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And uh that's instantly my in my head.
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I was like, learning, we should be measuring learning.
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Like that should be what the grade is about.
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And in the prologue, there is like these bullet points or number.
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There's a list of like actually, here's all the things that some people, some teachers do in that grade.
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And many of the things on the list are not about measuring learning, it's about controlling behavior, it's about like a number of other things.
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And that's what builds those inequities into grading.
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Um, and again, in the prologue, there's a list of like what in Mallory's dilemma, what she realized was that she had a teacher doing it this way, another one doing it another way.
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Like there was such a variability in in the system about how teachers were approaching grading.
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That then she made that connection between it's it's this difference in how we see grades and what we're doing with grades that's causing these the data to look the way that it does around student learning.
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Um, which then to me invalid invalidates the data as a place to look for student achievement.
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Well, I'm just gonna those bullets that you mentioned, that all the different teachers are doing like that that is probably every you could hand you could throw a dart at a district and around our state and say that's probably the current practice around majority of the system.
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I would imagine that again, for a teacher, it's it's so personal that I can I feel that's my role.
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This is my world, and I'm gonna and then that impact, like you mentioned, Carrie, could be like so significant if that student now is no longer able to move forward because of the grading practices.
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I mean, oh yeah.
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Thank you for bringing that forward.
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That's awesome.
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Sorry, Steven, go ahead.
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No, I you know, agree, and if I think reflect back on my own practice when I was in the classroom, it's a slow creep, right?
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Like, I'm gonna add this to my practice, and it really does come down to like if I value it, then I mean, this was my thought process when I was in the classroom.
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If I value it, then it should be reflected in the grade.
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And so then it was interesting to read this prologue and hear about I'm not sure if they use the term combative, but just like emotional process of trying to reform grading, and like historically it's not touched a whole ton just because it is a reflection of what we value as teachers.
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And so it, I mean, it stands up to reason and logic to say that well, I value good behavior in my classroom.
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And so then behavior is reflected in my grades.
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When that's if you take a step back and say, well, if our grades are supposed to report uh a student's understanding of standards and how much they've learned and their academic growth, does behavior have any place in your grade?
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And if you do want to report on that, then what's the appropriate process moving forward for that?
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Which I think is probably addressed in a future chapter.
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My aha was um when in the prologue, uh Feldman starts talking about his own journey.
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And he, and it's really more like of an affirmation for something that I was thinking about, but also an aha because I hadn't thought about it quite as deeply.
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But he has that list of um he says the main criteria is uh in nearly every decision that a school makes about students is based on grades.
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And he talks about course assignments, graduation, academic awards, your extracurriculars, promotion, retention, additional supports, additional opportunities, scholarships, college admission.
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And then even off that list, like when I applied for this job, they asked for my high school GPA.
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Like, so there's even jobs when I leave school, my GPA still matters.
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Man, they must not have asked for mine.
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Otherwise, I would not be employed here.
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Um so I just like it was a yeah, it matters.
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As a as a former middle school teacher, like I'm trying to tell these adolescents, like, you need to keep your grades up.
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This is important.
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Maybe not now in middle school, but when you're in high school, this becomes really important.
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But they don't, they're not seeing it at that age.
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You know, they just want to know why do I need to know this?
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And how many points is this going to be worth?
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And is this going in the grade book?
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And and then your grading practices kind of fall in line with the questions you're being asked.
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And thinking about that and reflecting on that now, I wonder about the questions I was being asked and how they were related to prior student experiences.
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Like, oh, Hag in your classroom, this matters.
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So I need to do this.
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But actually, in you know, the teacher down the my ELA teacher or the teacher down the hall, grading looks different.
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So now I have these questions for you because I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm supposed to do in your class to get the passing grade, because it's different than when I'm in a different classroom to get the passing grade.
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There was a professor at the school I went to who I actively avoided his class because I heard how hard of a grader he was.
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Like it was only like two people in his in his courses ever got A's, and his grading was all dependent on other people's performances.
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That sounds like a nightmare.
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I think he was probably a good teacher, but I avoided it because I was afraid of his grade grading practices.
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Is that a reflection of how well I can be an ed tech coach in at North Central ESD?
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I don't think so.
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Uh and it's hard to like not having ever taken this class, it's hard to know whether or not that style of grading actually led to deeper learning.
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But well, I mean, I can add on to that is that I have a story from a friend whose daughter um ended up not graduating high school with a 4.0 because she got an A minus in her math class because her math teacher gave daily points for just being in class.
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And it was her eighth period of the day, and she was a student athlete.
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So she missed a lot of classes because she was participating in extracurriculars.
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And his grading policy was you weren't here, you don't get the points.
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So then she got an A minus in that class and lost out on valedictorian, which then can lead into now I've lost out on a scholarship, which could mean not having an opportunity to go to college.
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I mean, it can grow into something seriously big, the grading practices that we're implementing in classrooms.
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Because she knew the content.
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Her grade was solely an A- based on her attendance.
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That makes me think of the aha that I pulled out, which was that equ equitable grading is not about lowering standards, it's about setting them like meaningfully and appropriately high.
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So there's that quote they take from a teacher in the prologue where they like ask them, it's something like, what do you think other people, what are you afraid other people will say about the changes we've made?
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And like instantly the teacher's like, people are gonna say that we lowered our standards or that we lowered expectations so that way kids could be high achieving higher.
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And like instantly someone chirps up and says, We raised them, like we made it more rigorous.
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It's just that the the they were measuring like the actual work so there was like more room to push their kids harder.
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So then imagine like your friend, the reason it made me think of that is like you think of that story, and like if that don't we want our kids to be well-rounded and involved in extracurriculars and then not punish them for being involved in things that make our schools great and like fun places to be?
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Like you would never want a kid to be like, well, I can't go to my softball game, or I can't go to 4-H, or I can't go to FFA or whatever because I'm gonna lose some like seat time points in my eighth grade class or my eighth period class.
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Like, what is that?
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You know, and so in her class schedule, she had some other class, some other math teacher, it wouldn't have been a thing.
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Oh, but now I'm gonna take two aha's because the the the other thing that really stuck out to me with this was the way equitable grading can empower teachers to make meaningful decisions and give them the information they need to do what's best for kids.
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Because like if you intentionally had a section in your gradebook that was like, I'm tracking daily attendance and rewarding kids for that, it'd be really easy to look at this kid and say, they're involved in a school sport, you know, um, and then looking at this other kid and be like, there's no reason for them to be gone.
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And instead of saying, I'm just gonna punish them, you now have the the space and the information to ask that kid, Stefan, why are you never in eighth, eighth period math?
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You know, and maybe there's no daycare at home and my brother and sister are getting out, and I've got to go, I need to go home and watch my kids, my brother and sister because there's no childcare and my parents are working.
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Or maybe more likely for Stefan, maybe you're just skipping class because you think math is boring, you know, and that's a different conversation.
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And there's a there should be penalties for that, and there should be, but there's other ways to motivate for that, you know.
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I um I though you those bullet, the meatballs that you brought forward, Carrie, uh, these of the different teachers.
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I think those were those ideas.
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You know, reading those all the time as I go through, I keep hearing, I keep list reflecting on myself as a teacher.
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And you've all everyone's brought that up there.
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And I, you know, that sets us uh, I think to come back and talk about those are those traditional practices that we can compare to.
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Because I imagine as you go through, we're gonna get suggested ways to improve some of these grading practices and be open-minded and curious as we challenge those because they're gonna push back on a lot of things, I would imagine, right?
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Like, um, well, I would just when we were talking about those attendance-way of grading, we've done some work with standards-based grading, and they call it uh not social skills, but business skill type things that you can evaluate them separate from the academic content.
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I mean, it's not a we there's some systems out there that you can do, but those are important things too.
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You should be there, but let's have some flexibility on the the rationale of why we are the power that you have.
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And again, so that was kind of like that that idea, like those pieces there, but then also wondering about the idea of the connection to instruction, like never forgetting that when we read this assessment or this grading thing, we also have to have the good instruction happening as well to see the outcome.
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Going back to what you brought forward, so on of the idea, like is that information giving us accurate information about the kids learning?
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And then what is my what is my teacher responsibility or involvement in there?
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So I'm ex I think it's gonna be a fun, a fun journey.
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Uh yeah, just that good teaching thing.
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I one of the things I wrote down under the like it's raising standards.
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One of the teachers said, Well, we raised our expectations because kids now can't get good grades from just fluff assignments.
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And uh like, like, yeah, like what happens when you remove a bunch of things that aren't measuring learning and your kids' grades decrease?
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Uh you got to be prepared to have the conversation that, like, you know, if the data is saying, I don't know.
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I like, I guess I should turn it on to myself.
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Like, if I if I were to be in my classroom and I were to change up my date my grading practices to focus on students' academic achievement relevant to their the standards and the expected learning, and the grades in my class drop, I have to be prepared to have a tough conversation and be self-reflective about like now I need to focus on my instruction, you know, my instructional practices, because just revamping to make grades more equitable doesn't necessarily mean your grades increase.
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There is an implicit um there just is a connection between those things for sure.
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I I had an idea.
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Something was like pinging in my mind when you said, like, just because you've changed your grading practices to be more equitable does not mean I know it's very distracting, Stefan.
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What are you doing?
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Sorry, it's the I cross my arms and thinks I'm thinks I'm giving a thumbs up.
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I gotta turn off that feature on my laptop.
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That is very annoying.
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No, it's good.
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Um, it reminded me of um I had an opportunity to get to sit in on a session with Dr.
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Stembridge.
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And one thing that he said in that session that around equity that stood out to me was I wrote it down, equity does not mean that everyone succeeds.
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It means that we cannot predict who will succeed and who will fail based on our demographics.
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So I think that's just something to hold on to as we think about equitable grading, doesn't mean, oh, now all my kids are gonna get A's because I've changed my grading practices.
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That's not what it means, I guess.
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Anyway, that was a connection.
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But my wondering um was around actually also related to something you brought up earlier, Stefan, around the teachers questioning the practices.
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And that was about parents.
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Because parents are a stakeholder in grades as well.
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Some parents more so than others, and some maybe not at all.
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They're not worried about their students' grades and paying attention.
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But changing grading practices, um, I guess my wondering is like how to communicate changes to parents if grading starts looking much different than what they're used to for their own student or what they're used to from their own experience in the classroom.
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So that was like a wondering I had that I don't know if it'll be addressed in the book or not.
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But I was as I was reading through it and they were talking about teachers and teachers questioning things and teachers pushing back, I was like, well, there's teachers aren't the only ones looking at grades.
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Part of shifting practices or expectations around uh assessment by design has to involve your community, which is not something I had thought of.
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So thank you for bringing that up.
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Because my wondering was how do teachers and schools break the culture of task completion versus like learning being reflected by your grades?
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And like you need to add to that, then how do teachers, schools, and communities break the culture?
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Because grades just feel so transactional.
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Again, painting with such a broad brush.
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But I am pulling from my my my classroom experience where like it it's so easy to focus on the concrete task.
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If you do this, then you move up this much.
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But like we're not having conversations around learning, and that's kind of a I guess I was gonna say it's kind of a nebulous concept, but I guess I don't really I don't truly believe that.
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But it's much harder to explain to a parent.
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Uh I'll I'll do this sitting in uh my son's kindergarten and first grade conferences, right?
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We conference with them in the fall, and then we conference with them in the spring.
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And you can just feel the apprehension coming from his teachers when they show us his like little quarterly report card, and they've got let's do it with numbers.
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You've got one, two, three, and four, though they're not numbers, right?
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But so one, two, three, and four, four being they've aced it, they're crushing it.
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And like we're meeting with this teacher in like October, and he's got a slew of like ones and twos, and maybe a three, and you can feel the apprehension from the teachers as they like try to proactively be like, don't worry about the ones, like it's okay.
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And so, like my wife and I are both educators, are going, like, yeah, yeah, you know, it's like this got it, got it, yeah.
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:49.519
We're good.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.799
He's a kindergartner, and like we've been working with him at home, but like we're not expecting a bunch of fours in October here, like it's okay.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.519
But parents want what's best for their kids, and so then when they don't see teachers do the same thing on their evaluation.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.000
I didn't get exemplary all the way down the line there.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:09.599
I worked with a teacher who used to do that.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:11.119
Like, I think it's human nature.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.480
We just think we're not used to thinking in a growth mindset.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:30.319
Um, but it also like that's right there at the beginning with Mallory's dilemma, where she's she's talking to that like eighth grader who like is kind of bemoaning the fact that like all of her peers are cheating and she's got this ethical standard where she's not gonna do that, but now she's debating like, should I?
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:42.160
Everyone else is, and so these like subpar grading practices are are by design guiding kids to or at least getting them to grapple with making choices that they just shouldn't have to make.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.079
It shouldn't be a question in a kid's mind whether or not they should cheat just to get to a means to an end.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.759
Ideally, I know this is a pipe dream, but ideally, you just want kids to be like, Well, I'm not gonna cheat because I'm not gonna learn anything.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.720
Like, if I don't do this, and like, wouldn't that be nice?
00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.000
Yes, that's the pie in the sky.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.200
That's the pie in the sky.
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.720
Well, hey, hey, this is gonna be a fun journey, right?
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.240
We're gonna stay with the books.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:07.200
You gotta get the book.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.799
So I'm gonna I'm gonna just buy it unless you find one at the office.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.480
But second edition, correct?
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:27.920
And um uh if you're keeping track at home, our assignment for the prologue was to do uh an aha and a wondering, and the only person that followed those directions was Carrie.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:33.920
Yeah, Stefan came Stefan came in with two aha's and two wonderings, I think.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:43.680
Which was my original pitch for the I know, but all points today for following directions, and the other norm we're gonna try to keep is keep it tighter, right?
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.799
So I started a timer, it's been 26 minutes.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:47.759
Okay, there we go.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.359
So look at these data collectors I'm hanging out with today.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:52.160
Exactly.
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.880
We're we're trying to keep this good, but uh uh that was this will be this will be a good one again.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:13.759
The the personal and the connections and how it like really because then we don't we all think about that one student that we just you know, just that little bit of uh if I if I would have nudged that F to a D, how much impact that would have had for that kid, right?
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.960
I mean, so how but is that fair?
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:23.359
I'm gonna have to go apologize to about 175 kids that I messed up.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.440
Times how many years, right?
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:25.920
Sorry.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.720
No, this is good.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.039
Thanks for learning with us today.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.680
If something we said sparked a thought, made you nod, or something Andy said made you roll your eyes, we'd love to hear about it.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:47.599
Share the episode, tag a colleague, send it to your PLC, or just keep the conversation going within your own team.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:55.359
You can connect with us via the feedback form in the show notes, and we'd love to hear your thoughts, feedback, and suggestions for topics to cover in future episodes.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.160
We're all grown together, and that starts with paying attention to our own practice.
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Equity does not mean that everyone succeeds.
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It means that we cannot predict who will succeed and who will fail based on our demographics.
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So I think that's just something to hold on to as we think about equitable grading.
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Doesn't mean, oh, now all my kids are going to get A's because I've changed my grading practices.
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That's not what it means, I guess.
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Welcome to Learning Out Loud, where we get curious about all things teaching and learning.
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I'm Stefan, a regional technology coach, here with Andy, a regional math coordinator, and Carrie, a regional science coordinator.
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We're just three educators on a mission to dig into what works, what doesn't, and what we're still figuring out.
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This podcast is for teachers, coaches, and leaders who want to grow in their professional practice.
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We don't have all the answers, but we're asking the questions and recording the process.
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Let's go to work.
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So let's we'll get going here.
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And again, I'm gonna say it for record.
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Now we're rolling, okay?
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Shout out to all the folks fighting fires out there in all across Washington.
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And if if you wonder down the road why Carrie is not here, it's because she's evacuating.
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And Stefan's child is running around.
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So it might just be me at the end because I'm here by myself today.
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But, anyways, uh, no, we're gonna we're gonna talk about grading for equity by Joe Fieldman.
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We're gonna be using the second edition, and um, our first conversation is gonna be brief, or our listening will be around the prologue.
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And um, of course, we're all prepared with different editions.
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So, Carrie, Stephan, and I have all different versions and different editions of the of the text.
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So, we're gonna do our best on this first one and get it all together by our second one that we're all in the same edition.
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We can reference the same page number.
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And our first prompt for this prologue is gonna be this an aha that you may see and a wondering you have, and interact with that and down in the discussion boards on this uh canvas course.
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But for me, this is like a I'm gonna have a a wondering.
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Can I have a ha wondering?
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You're you combined yours into one?
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Well, I merged.
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So here hear me out here, and then I'll pass it off to it.
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It's just a synonym of combined.
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Okay, this topic, you know, is is really personal, right?
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Grading and evaluating people, and so and and all the variabilities off the chart with when we talk about it.
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So we're all gonna be coming on different journeys and different areas, and that was like like my wondering as you start reading these stories, which I love the read how how he writes, like I love the stories, the connections, because I then I put my place myself in that spot.
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I'm like, oh gosh, or the quotes that he includes with their teachers, like, oh gosh, I have thought that, I've said that, anyways.
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But all throughout, like, you know, all these these areas that that's why it's so important to read the book or follow along with us and read this text.
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But um, you know, when it's really personal, and so I had this idea when this to kind of keep it big for my uh wondering is that you know, when you notice something in a grading and this this Mallory's dilemma of this principle going in and talking about grading practices, but where they started to change or to have the conversation with just that idea of like what what are we what do we value in this situation?
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What are we gonna try to, what questions about the data, what is it really telling us, versus trying to change a practice right out of the gate?
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That's kind of where I was that that prologue got me thinking about okay, this is really personal, because it's as a teacher, it's my connection really with the kids and the parents and inside the the homes of my of my students.
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Um, but it's also a way to kind of think about what are what are the pieces that we're really asking in, you know, how do we look at it as an exploration versus just like a concrete like do X, Y, and Z, etc.
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So Yeah, is the data we're collecting from our grades giving us the information that we need to make decisions about student learning?
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Is that the okay?
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Yeah.
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That's a probably that's probably a quote in your uh book somewhere, I would imagine.
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I mean, that's in the if it sounded that good, then it probably is.
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I was just trying to summarize what you said.
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So that sounded good.
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Yes, capture that, let's let's put that somewhere exactly.
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No, thanks, Stefan.
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That's as you were talking, Andy.
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That's what when you you said um, what are we evaluating?
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What is the goal?
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And uh that's instantly my in my head.
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I was like, learning, we should be measuring learning.
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Like that should be what the grade is about.
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And in the prologue, there is like these bullet points or number.
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There's a list of like actually, here's all the things that some people, some teachers do in that grade.
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And many of the things on the list are not about measuring learning, it's about controlling behavior, it's about like a number of other things.
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And that's what builds those inequities into grading.
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Um, and again, in the prologue, there's a list of like what in Mallory's dilemma, what she realized was that she had a teacher doing it this way, another one doing it another way.
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Like there was such a variability in in the system about how teachers were approaching grading.
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That then she made that connection between it's it's this difference in how we see grades and what we're doing with grades that's causing these the data to look the way that it does around student learning.
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Um, which then to me invalid invalidates the data as a place to look for student achievement.
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Well, I'm just gonna those bullets that you mentioned, that all the different teachers are doing like that that is probably every you could hand you could throw a dart at a district and around our state and say that's probably the current practice around majority of the system.
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I would imagine that again, for a teacher, it's it's so personal that I can I feel that's my role.
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This is my world, and I'm gonna and then that impact, like you mentioned, Carrie, could be like so significant if that student now is no longer able to move forward because of the grading practices.
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I mean, oh yeah.
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Thank you for bringing that forward.
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That's awesome.
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Sorry, Steven, go ahead.
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No, I you know, agree, and if I think reflect back on my own practice when I was in the classroom, it's a slow creep, right?
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Like, I'm gonna add this to my practice, and it really does come down to like if I value it, then I mean, this was my thought process when I was in the classroom.
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If I value it, then it should be reflected in the grade.
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And so then it was interesting to read this prologue and hear about I'm not sure if they use the term combative, but just like emotional process of trying to reform grading, and like historically it's not touched a whole ton just because it is a reflection of what we value as teachers.
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And so it, I mean, it stands up to reason and logic to say that well, I value good behavior in my classroom.
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And so then behavior is reflected in my grades.
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When that's if you take a step back and say, well, if our grades are supposed to report uh a student's understanding of standards and how much they've learned and their academic growth, does behavior have any place in your grade?
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And if you do want to report on that, then what's the appropriate process moving forward for that?
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Which I think is probably addressed in a future chapter.
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My aha was um when in the prologue, uh Feldman starts talking about his own journey.
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And he, and it's really more like of an affirmation for something that I was thinking about, but also an aha because I hadn't thought about it quite as deeply.
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But he has that list of um he says the main criteria is uh in nearly every decision that a school makes about students is based on grades.
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And he talks about course assignments, graduation, academic awards, your extracurriculars, promotion, retention, additional supports, additional opportunities, scholarships, college admission.
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And then even off that list, like when I applied for this job, they asked for my high school GPA.
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Like, so there's even jobs when I leave school, my GPA still matters.
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Man, they must not have asked for mine.
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Otherwise, I would not be employed here.
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Um so I just like it was a yeah, it matters.
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As a as a former middle school teacher, like I'm trying to tell these adolescents, like, you need to keep your grades up.
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This is important.
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Maybe not now in middle school, but when you're in high school, this becomes really important.
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But they don't, they're not seeing it at that age.
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You know, they just want to know why do I need to know this?
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And how many points is this going to be worth?
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And is this going in the grade book?
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And and then your grading practices kind of fall in line with the questions you're being asked.
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And thinking about that and reflecting on that now, I wonder about the questions I was being asked and how they were related to prior student experiences.
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Like, oh, Hag in your classroom, this matters.
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So I need to do this.
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But actually, in you know, the teacher down the my ELA teacher or the teacher down the hall, grading looks different.
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So now I have these questions for you because I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm supposed to do in your class to get the passing grade, because it's different than when I'm in a different classroom to get the passing grade.
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There was a professor at the school I went to who I actively avoided his class because I heard how hard of a grader he was.
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Like it was only like two people in his in his courses ever got A's, and his grading was all dependent on other people's performances.
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That sounds like a nightmare.
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I think he was probably a good teacher, but I avoided it because I was afraid of his grade grading practices.
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Is that a reflection of how well I can be an ed tech coach in at North Central ESD?
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I don't think so.
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Uh and it's hard to like not having ever taken this class, it's hard to know whether or not that style of grading actually led to deeper learning.
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But well, I mean, I can add on to that is that I have a story from a friend whose daughter um ended up not graduating high school with a 4.0 because she got an A minus in her math class because her math teacher gave daily points for just being in class.
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And it was her eighth period of the day, and she was a student athlete.
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So she missed a lot of classes because she was participating in extracurriculars.
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And his grading policy was you weren't here, you don't get the points.
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So then she got an A minus in that class and lost out on valedictorian, which then can lead into now I've lost out on a scholarship, which could mean not having an opportunity to go to college.
00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:21.279
I mean, it can grow into something seriously big, the grading practices that we're implementing in classrooms.
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Because she knew the content.
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Her grade was solely an A- based on her attendance.
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:40.720
That makes me think of the aha that I pulled out, which was that equ equitable grading is not about lowering standards, it's about setting them like meaningfully and appropriately high.
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So there's that quote they take from a teacher in the prologue where they like ask them, it's something like, what do you think other people, what are you afraid other people will say about the changes we've made?
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And like instantly the teacher's like, people are gonna say that we lowered our standards or that we lowered expectations so that way kids could be high achieving higher.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:06.480
And like instantly someone chirps up and says, We raised them, like we made it more rigorous.
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:16.480
It's just that the the they were measuring like the actual work so there was like more room to push their kids harder.
00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:35.600
So then imagine like your friend, the reason it made me think of that is like you think of that story, and like if that don't we want our kids to be well-rounded and involved in extracurriculars and then not punish them for being involved in things that make our schools great and like fun places to be?
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:51.120
Like you would never want a kid to be like, well, I can't go to my softball game, or I can't go to 4-H, or I can't go to FFA or whatever because I'm gonna lose some like seat time points in my eighth grade class or my eighth period class.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:52.559
Like, what is that?
00:12:52.720 --> 00:13:00.159
You know, and so in her class schedule, she had some other class, some other math teacher, it wouldn't have been a thing.
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:12.720
Oh, but now I'm gonna take two aha's because the the the other thing that really stuck out to me with this was the way equitable grading can empower teachers to make meaningful decisions and give them the information they need to do what's best for kids.
00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:32.480
Because like if you intentionally had a section in your gradebook that was like, I'm tracking daily attendance and rewarding kids for that, it'd be really easy to look at this kid and say, they're involved in a school sport, you know, um, and then looking at this other kid and be like, there's no reason for them to be gone.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:42.080
And instead of saying, I'm just gonna punish them, you now have the the space and the information to ask that kid, Stefan, why are you never in eighth, eighth period math?
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:54.080
You know, and maybe there's no daycare at home and my brother and sister are getting out, and I've got to go, I need to go home and watch my kids, my brother and sister because there's no childcare and my parents are working.
00:13:54.399 --> 00:14:02.320
Or maybe more likely for Stefan, maybe you're just skipping class because you think math is boring, you know, and that's a different conversation.
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:09.120
And there's a there should be penalties for that, and there should be, but there's other ways to motivate for that, you know.
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:17.279
I um I though you those bullet, the meatballs that you brought forward, Carrie, uh, these of the different teachers.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:18.960
I think those were those ideas.
00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:25.120
You know, reading those all the time as I go through, I keep hearing, I keep list reflecting on myself as a teacher.
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.120
And you've all everyone's brought that up there.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:36.080
And I, you know, that sets us uh, I think to come back and talk about those are those traditional practices that we can compare to.
00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:51.440
Because I imagine as you go through, we're gonna get suggested ways to improve some of these grading practices and be open-minded and curious as we challenge those because they're gonna push back on a lot of things, I would imagine, right?
00:14:51.600 --> 00:15:08.399
Like, um, well, I would just when we were talking about those attendance-way of grading, we've done some work with standards-based grading, and they call it uh not social skills, but business skill type things that you can evaluate them separate from the academic content.
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:13.600
I mean, it's not a we there's some systems out there that you can do, but those are important things too.
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:21.440
You should be there, but let's have some flexibility on the the rationale of why we are the power that you have.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:38.320
And again, so that was kind of like that that idea, like those pieces there, but then also wondering about the idea of the connection to instruction, like never forgetting that when we read this assessment or this grading thing, we also have to have the good instruction happening as well to see the outcome.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:46.159
Going back to what you brought forward, so on of the idea, like is that information giving us accurate information about the kids learning?
00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:52.320
And then what is my what is my teacher responsibility or involvement in there?
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:56.639
So I'm ex I think it's gonna be a fun, a fun journey.
00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.320
Uh yeah, just that good teaching thing.
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.720
I one of the things I wrote down under the like it's raising standards.
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:12.480
One of the teachers said, Well, we raised our expectations because kids now can't get good grades from just fluff assignments.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:21.120
And uh like, like, yeah, like what happens when you remove a bunch of things that aren't measuring learning and your kids' grades decrease?
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:28.960
Uh you got to be prepared to have the conversation that, like, you know, if the data is saying, I don't know.
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.039
I like, I guess I should turn it on to myself.
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:58.960
Like, if I if I were to be in my classroom and I were to change up my date my grading practices to focus on students' academic achievement relevant to their the standards and the expected learning, and the grades in my class drop, I have to be prepared to have a tough conversation and be self-reflective about like now I need to focus on my instruction, you know, my instructional practices, because just revamping to make grades more equitable doesn't necessarily mean your grades increase.
00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:04.880
There is an implicit um there just is a connection between those things for sure.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:06.799
I I had an idea.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:18.799
Something was like pinging in my mind when you said, like, just because you've changed your grading practices to be more equitable does not mean I know it's very distracting, Stefan.
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:19.279
What are you doing?
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.359
Sorry, it's the I cross my arms and thinks I'm thinks I'm giving a thumbs up.
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I gotta turn off that feature on my laptop.
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That is very annoying.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:28.799
No, it's good.
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:35.599
Um, it reminded me of um I had an opportunity to get to sit in on a session with Dr.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:36.960
Stembridge.
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:46.559
And one thing that he said in that session that around equity that stood out to me was I wrote it down, equity does not mean that everyone succeeds.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:51.039
It means that we cannot predict who will succeed and who will fail based on our demographics.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:18:00.400
So I think that's just something to hold on to as we think about equitable grading, doesn't mean, oh, now all my kids are gonna get A's because I've changed my grading practices.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.960
That's not what it means, I guess.
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:04.960
Anyway, that was a connection.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:14.319
But my wondering um was around actually also related to something you brought up earlier, Stefan, around the teachers questioning the practices.
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And that was about parents.
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Because parents are a stakeholder in grades as well.
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Some parents more so than others, and some maybe not at all.
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They're not worried about their students' grades and paying attention.
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:45.279
But changing grading practices, um, I guess my wondering is like how to communicate changes to parents if grading starts looking much different than what they're used to for their own student or what they're used to from their own experience in the classroom.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.440
So that was like a wondering I had that I don't know if it'll be addressed in the book or not.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:58.160
But I was as I was reading through it and they were talking about teachers and teachers questioning things and teachers pushing back, I was like, well, there's teachers aren't the only ones looking at grades.
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:06.160
Part of shifting practices or expectations around uh assessment by design has to involve your community, which is not something I had thought of.
00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:07.440
So thank you for bringing that up.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:17.599
Because my wondering was how do teachers and schools break the culture of task completion versus like learning being reflected by your grades?
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:25.920
And like you need to add to that, then how do teachers, schools, and communities break the culture?
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.519
Because grades just feel so transactional.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:31.839
Again, painting with such a broad brush.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:39.519
But I am pulling from my my my classroom experience where like it it's so easy to focus on the concrete task.
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If you do this, then you move up this much.
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But like we're not having conversations around learning, and that's kind of a I guess I was gonna say it's kind of a nebulous concept, but I guess I don't really I don't truly believe that.
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.759
But it's much harder to explain to a parent.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:04.880
Uh I'll I'll do this sitting in uh my son's kindergarten and first grade conferences, right?
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We conference with them in the fall, and then we conference with them in the spring.
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:22.000
And you can just feel the apprehension coming from his teachers when they show us his like little quarterly report card, and they've got let's do it with numbers.
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.039
You've got one, two, three, and four, though they're not numbers, right?
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.440
But so one, two, three, and four, four being they've aced it, they're crushing it.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:43.839
And like we're meeting with this teacher in like October, and he's got a slew of like ones and twos, and maybe a three, and you can feel the apprehension from the teachers as they like try to proactively be like, don't worry about the ones, like it's okay.
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:49.200
And so, like my wife and I are both educators, are going, like, yeah, yeah, you know, it's like this got it, got it, yeah.
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:49.519
We're good.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:56.799
He's a kindergartner, and like we've been working with him at home, but like we're not expecting a bunch of fours in October here, like it's okay.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.519
But parents want what's best for their kids, and so then when they don't see teachers do the same thing on their evaluation.
00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.000
I didn't get exemplary all the way down the line there.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:09.599
I worked with a teacher who used to do that.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:11.119
Like, I think it's human nature.
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.480
We just think we're not used to thinking in a growth mindset.
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:30.319
Um, but it also like that's right there at the beginning with Mallory's dilemma, where she's she's talking to that like eighth grader who like is kind of bemoaning the fact that like all of her peers are cheating and she's got this ethical standard where she's not gonna do that, but now she's debating like, should I?
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:42.160
Everyone else is, and so these like subpar grading practices are are by design guiding kids to or at least getting them to grapple with making choices that they just shouldn't have to make.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.079
It shouldn't be a question in a kid's mind whether or not they should cheat just to get to a means to an end.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.759
Ideally, I know this is a pipe dream, but ideally, you just want kids to be like, Well, I'm not gonna cheat because I'm not gonna learn anything.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.720
Like, if I don't do this, and like, wouldn't that be nice?
00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.000
Yes, that's the pie in the sky.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.200
That's the pie in the sky.
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.720
Well, hey, hey, this is gonna be a fun journey, right?
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.240
We're gonna stay with the books.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:07.200
You gotta get the book.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.799
So I'm gonna I'm gonna just buy it unless you find one at the office.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.480
But second edition, correct?
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:27.920
And um uh if you're keeping track at home, our assignment for the prologue was to do uh an aha and a wondering, and the only person that followed those directions was Carrie.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:33.920
Yeah, Stefan came Stefan came in with two aha's and two wonderings, I think.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:43.680
Which was my original pitch for the I know, but all points today for following directions, and the other norm we're gonna try to keep is keep it tighter, right?
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.799
So I started a timer, it's been 26 minutes.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:47.759
Okay, there we go.
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.359
So look at these data collectors I'm hanging out with today.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:52.160
Exactly.
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:56.880
We're we're trying to keep this good, but uh uh that was this will be this will be a good one again.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:13.759
The the personal and the connections and how it like really because then we don't we all think about that one student that we just you know, just that little bit of uh if I if I would have nudged that F to a D, how much impact that would have had for that kid, right?
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.960
I mean, so how but is that fair?
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:23.359
I'm gonna have to go apologize to about 175 kids that I messed up.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.440
Times how many years, right?
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:25.920
Sorry.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:28.720
No, this is good.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.039
Thanks for learning with us today.
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If something we said sparked a thought, made you nod, or something Andy said made you roll your eyes, we'd love to hear about it.
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Share the episode, tag a colleague, send it to your PLC, or just keep the conversation going within your own team.
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:55.359
You can connect with us via the feedback form in the show notes, and we'd love to hear your thoughts, feedback, and suggestions for topics to cover in future episodes.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.160
We're all grown together, and that starts with paying attention to our own practice.
